KubeVirt Community, 3 Sep 2020

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From YouTube: KubeVirt Community Meeting 2020-09-03

Description

Discuss ver 1.0 roadmap

Notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KpCOIgiIfTsHQ_AA6xfr3ndgVc8fIs-BSUrdXFdVuxs/edit#heading=h.dnct0as4yxs1

A

All right, so this is a one-off community meeting uh where we're trying to shape up and define what cubert version one should look at like so we're planning for keyboard version, one which we're hoping lands this year so pretty soon. We just need to define what that is and kind of set the goal posts for ourselves. So we know what we're working towards so to begin with, I think it would make sense for us to uh take a look at what version one means. I I wrote down my thoughts and it's okay.

A

If you don't have any other thoughts, but at least let's try to agree on something and what I've kind of tried to use, as our definition is version one, it should be the minimal functionality. We think it's necessary to meet our goal of being an infrastructure as a service, virtual machine management platform.

A

That's right for production use and I think that this means that, uh in order to be ready for production use, we're gonna have to have an established process for community support and a user guide that's uh easily accessible and um and formatted in a way that people can can use easily. So what are people's thoughts about how I've defined this does that make sense to everyone? Is that a good kind of just general goal? Is there anything we should add, remove or or anything whatever?

A

Whatever you any thoughts you all have, we can go anywhere with us.

A

They'll speak at once.

B

um I I had something I'm not sure that it is maybe strictly required for version one, but something that I definitely would would like to see in the future is a well-defined. uh Maybe we can call it an interface for virt, launcher and vertender.

C

Okay, we'll get to that, I want to add something to what daniel said: yeah. We need. We also know we need to. I want to elaborate on the storage side on the way you create the ends and how you attach storage to it. There are so many ways to do it. This can be confusing. Sometimes.

A

Yeah, I think, that's a that's a really good point, so you're coming kind of from a communication standpoint, so how we communicate to people uh how to create virtual machines, or are you saying that we need to potentially look at streamlining, maybe go into some more detail there like how?

A

How could we, um what actions could we take to simplify this, for people.

C

We can I mean we can sense the few ways to do it. We should stick to one way on one method and expose this to the users to prevent the mistakes and misconfigurations in the future.

A

I'm not sure so um I mean our api is pretty complicated uh because it's kind of flexible and it's fairly powerful, but it gives us a lot of options. So it sounds like what you're talking about um might be something similar to what openshift has done with the common templates, where they give kind of a.

A

This is how you can create a virtual machine and just fill out a few variables, and all the complicated stuff is just hidden behind the scenes. Is that yes, similar okay.

C

Yeah, it's similar to what you described.

D

A

Yeah, I'm going to add that to the list. That's something we've been thinking about um so at the bottom of the list. I would. I would define that as.

A

It's almost like a templating mechanism for virtual.

A

A

So I said templating mechanism for virtual machines, and this is going to be something that strap extracts away, some of the api complexities from users and conceptually. We would consider this to be something similar to what we get with openshift templating, except, of course, we'd want this to be available to everyone, regardless, if you're using openshift, so something that's generically available for anyone who's using cube, fert yeah. So thanks for writing excellent. So it sounds like we didn't, have a whole lot to talk about the definition- and um I may have one thing: I'm.

E

Yeah, so I feel this commitment issue wherever whenever software goes to v1, because you want it to be perfect when you go out with v1 right, so you don't need to add anything else, then so the bucket can just grow and grow and convert will be never done right. So for me, I, as a user, I would expect one single thing from convert going: v1 and that's like perfect documentation.

E

So if I have an issue, I can just find the user story that tells me or the user guide, how to do it, but I don't think that we really need any of these other blood points. I just want this documentation and anything else can go in 1.1 and one to two and just come in the future.

E

So I mean I'm okay with all these points, but I would be also okay, just dropping them and leaving it just products.

A

So I think we're in agreement that um anything, this user, especially people's first interaction with our project. We need to make that just awesome that needs to be. They can find the information they need. It's concise and it's easy to consume because that's how we gain traction and we're gonna have a lot of eyes on us once we make an announcement like keeper is version one. um So that's an opportunity for us to gain traction as well. So I would say it's priority one.

A

I would agree that we need to take a hard look at our user guide and, what's available to people that are first approaching the project, make sure that they're funneled in a way that makes it easy for them to access the information that they need. So yeah, that's definitely doesn't need to be cut. I would agree yeah I mean.

E

While writing the docs for, like writing all the user guides, we can think about like once. You start doing it, you will figure out what are the like. You will see clearly when convert lacks some user experience um features. You know if you need to write a longest user guide on one feature. It probably means that you need to rethink of each feature, and so I focus solely on that. I mean like the, for instance, the work launcher live updates.

E

I it sounds like something, that's a cool feature, but I don't think it's a mandatory, but I think that convert is pretty useful even without that and we can just keep trimming the the list of items there.

B

Yeah to to, I would like to add to what peter just said about the launcher: live updates uh the reference to control, plane components here, I'm not sure if it is a 100 accurate because, uh unlike a control, plane, components which can be, for example, a compared to very tender or something like that. But launcher is a user-defined workload more like a pod, um so yeah, I'm not sure that this feature is strictly required for v1.

D

Oh sorry, well I'm thinking thinking uh you know as a potential user and and the scope of v1 being production, ready uh correctness and ground, but this build launcher live update is kind of important in the sense that you can upgrade. uh You know you can perform updates while keeping vms not impacted.

A

Correct yeah, so there's um here's why this is in here: vert launcher pods or the vmi pods. They contain our control plane component, which is vert launcher, but also contains levert and qmu, and if anyone wants to update those components, it's tied to the workload.

A

So we were looking at ways to perhaps um seamlessly figure out a way to kind of inject those new components into that pod and maybe cycle the the uh virtual machine. The way that it's not disruptive and things like that.

D

I mean sorry controller, but beyond the technical details I would say so from a user's point of view and and daniel. I think you you did the last comment or better, I'm not sure, but you said okay. uh This is like a part. Well, it's not it's a vm running inside the pod right um and if you know for for kubernetes, like a normal pod upgrades, pods are expected to be killed and you know restarted.

D

That's probably not the same expectation if you run a vm um right. Yes,.

B

I I I agree with you yeah. Okay, please.

E

Now go for it, daniel.

B

No, no, please.

E

So I mean- and I think that here we can make a like there's a difference between the pet vms and like the kettle beams right. So if we say that we want to support uh pet vms in v1, then we probably need live updates and we need snapshots.

E

But if we are fine with the kettle which are they are more like bots, then we can drop these two items from from v1, because it's you.

F

E

Not necessarily part of the scope.

A

I think we I want to take a step back, um so this task item is talking about live, updating, invert launcher. I think that's going to be that's too much. What we need is just to at least the very minimum have a clearly documented or a process for updating these vert launcher pods. So, even if that means that, if you want to update them, you have to live migrate or you have to shut down and start up again or whatever.

A

We just need a process that defines that today, because right now uh it's kind of you. You update your q version and it's not obvious that these things are left around with the old version. The workload components are the old version. It's not even obvious what you need to do to um to update these things. Even if we can't do the live update, it's gonna, be it's gonna, be pretty difficult. I think at the very minimum.

A

I think we need to either have a mechanism that automatically triggers the update or at least document make it explicit that you're in charge of updating your workloads at this point. Does that make sense? Do you think that covers at least what we'd need coming out of the gate.

B

Yes, absolutely well for me. Yes, okay,.

A

So I'm gonna make a point here.

A

Okay, so I think I'm just going to start going down this list and we'll we'll we'll tackle these things, one by one and uh hopefully we'll get to the bottom of this list. We've already knocked out a few, and uh that should give us a good indication of what we're targeting here. So the first thing on this list. We have the core keyboard: apis need to go to version one, and I think that's, we've already essentially.

A

We already are kind of version one. It's just uh we're version one alpha three right now for historical reasons: it's because there were some issues in previous um kubernetes versions that made it difficult for us to have multi-version support in the way that we wanted. That was stable and we've just hit the point in the past, probably six months, where we feel comfortable doing that. But then we get help. We've been held back by some other things, so I think we're at a point where we are effectively version one.

A

We just need to actually flip the the version to actually represent what we are, but as part of this, we're saying that we need to rely on um the general availability kubernetes entities. So when we register our crds, they need to actually be registered using uh crd version. One, uh that's the keyword object itself and we need everything that comes along with that. So we need to have the explain functionality.

A

We also need to have the schema validation reintroduced back into that crd as well, so just fully fledged we're using the crd api in its entirety as part of the criteria. Anyone have any problems with that one. I think that one is pretty obvious that we just have to do just.

E

Just to get it clear, this is not a chance to deprecate some apis and rework uh no way.

E

A

No, um so we're we're looking at being forward moving forward. uh So what we have now, we would be just moving forward and backwards compatible.

A

So the current b1 alpha 3 will be an alias for v1, essentially they're they're, just going to be the same thing: uh md1 alpha 3, it's not going away. It'll always exist, uh it'll just be the same thing as b1, so anyone who's invested uh in their b1 alpha 3 api, and they have perhaps virtual machines that use that group and kind or whatever it would.

A

Everything would just continue to work anything else before we move on.

A

Okay, so the next one is snapshot support and I think it doesn't really matter what we think about this, because it it's so close that it'll, probably just make it in um maybe michael, is the one that might have some strong opinions about this.

A

I would say this is optional. Does anyone disagree.

E

Do we need something less than.

A

I would uh say say that again, I might have missed.

E

A

Do we need it on the list if it's optional? No, I think we can um so we have an uh deferred from version. One list here at the bottom has no entries, but I would I would move that I'm gonna go ahead and move it. If anyone has any objections, speak now,.

B

A

B

About the non root vmi pods.

D

So before we move on to the next one, sorry not an objection, but just a question. uh What what what could depend on snapshots, uh I mean I'm wondering things like backups, probably.

G

A

So if people want to back up and restore their virtual machines, it would depend on using snapshots.

D

Well, okay, um I would not object from for about deferring it, but I just wanted to add a note that you know keeping this production ready uh context. Pockets are important for production. So anyway, let's move on.

A

Okay, so all right non-root, who brought that up. Let's talk about it.

B

I did and my question is: why is it something that is like strictly required for uh version one, why it can't be something like version, one dot, something.

A

Yeah, it can be that's what we're that's what we're discussing. So um I think it's a perception issue right now. People would like to have their virtual machine workloads running in a the least privileged pod possible.

A

I don't know if that really matters for version one. I think we can continue to work towards that non-root vmi pods, without it necessarily being something that we have to get done for version one. But what do you all think it sounds like daniel? You seem to agree that maybe it's not required.

H

It says right can, I add something, and so I I think it's clearly and notice that this is untrusted area. As you actually said, it is problematic on one hand, to specify it's untrusted and to give root privilege to the pod. So I seeing it is advisable either to indicate that that it's kind of working progress or remove the route.

A

So in indicating this, um would this be part of our user guide? How would you expect us to communicate this.

H

I don't know I'm just saying that you know it's clearly divided between. You know we're trying to divide between untrusted and trusted right, and you have the handler on one side, the launcher, and then you have it on untrusted area, but you basically give it root, and so they can elevate, they can do a lot of damage. So it's kind of you, you break the border between the untrusted and trusted.

B

With that, but one thing that I'd like to to add here: it's not like we're giving the user access to a root pod. Well, the user is still inside a vm. So it's absolutely.

H

B

From the vm it is possible.

H

B

H

We are talking about the case of vm break right, absolutely.

H

So so maybe it gives some indication in case of william break, which is you know, we know it's a rare occasion.

H

A

My only point so here's what I'm getting um maybe non-root v, my pods, don't need to be targeted for version one, but at the very least we need to have a documented trust model for what our components are allowed to do and exactly where we fall as far as privileges.

A

B

Yes, I have one question, though, that just came to my mind, so actually, if, if I'm giving so let's say that I'm a cluster admin and I'm giving you david the option to create uh vms on your namespace and giving you a namespace and you can create vms there. So you can also exec in the launcher. Pod right, yeah.

D

B

You can do it that so it is a problem because I'm basically giving you root access to one of my notes.

A

B

A

I think there's some ways to prevent that, like, for example, in openshift, the security context constraints, wouldn't let you pod exact into a a pod that had privileges that you as a user.

A

Don't have so you couldn't pod exact into the vert launcher pod, but uh in vanilla kubernetes. um Without I'm not sure. If the what is it called the policy.

H

Yeah, I I think you can remove the exec. The question is: do you need it? Do you need exec into the launcher? If not you can you can remove it sure.

A

Right so that's the other option.

B

We just need to make sure that the user, that the regular user can't exec into the launcher and then.

A

That's not something we can necessarily enforce, but that's something that uh whoever's setting up cubert and however they've said their multi tendency should should have to enforce somehow with all.

B

Or whatever? I don't know, because with this problem, where regular users can exec into launch reports- and it is something that we do even if we document it somewhere, it is a huge security risk. So maybe it is something that should go into version. One.

A

A

A

Okay, I think uh that's something that we need to investigate our messaging around this and um what.

A

What recommendations we have at the very least for how users should be able to create virtual machines and what privileges they should be able to have within the cluster to avoid this.

A

So I think this is from a messaging standpoint right now. We need to to understand the trust model and then make some recommendations for people to be able to limit users ability to gain elevated privileges.

A

Or we could do the that we could say: non-root pods is required for version one. I don't know what uh what are we leaning towards here.

B

I think that, if the only if our only option is to document it to avoid this, so we should require it for version one, because the commentation is not a solution in this case, because it is a security issue, a big security issue.

H

Not necessarily because you know it's the option of the of the user right if you have a very well defined documentation of the trust model, it's up to me to decide whether I want to use that in production. My problem currently is because it's not well document it's kind of misleading right. I see this nice model of trust and trust. I don't want to dig into a lot of documentation to get the to the answer that oh, I have a root on the board.

H

I want to it to be clear and if it's not, there are many cases in which it's completely fine. It's a completely fine.

B

Model it is not just root on the pod, because uh if I'm a privileged pod, I can easily access to other pods.

A

And privileged, we uh we enable privileged, for I think it might have been srvo and maybe that's even gone now. We shouldn't have a problem with that anymore. I can double check.

E

Yeah we are not privileged, but um you still have you can access the you can edit the networking within the work launcher, and by doing that, you may be able to destroy networking for all the other bots that run in the same note, for instance, so this risk is still there.

A

The only the only way uh privileged gets set today is, if somebody's using power pc and that's because of a um some issue with livert, but that's the only way it would get sat.

B

Yeah, but it is also something because, but but maybe I agree here with ezra, if we like had a very large warning on the documentation or on the installation on the install uh documentation.

B

But the problem is that people can consume cube vert, for example, through the openshift uh app registry, because we deploy our releases there as well.

E

I mean even with the documentation like we will have only one v1 and we can make a big boom and if I open the documentation of covert and see yes, this works. But it's not secure.

C

E

Like I'm, going away, yeah.

C

H

A

Maybe we should solve it, let's, let's do it all right so that one stays that's going to be tough.

B

Maybe maybe you should leave the comments and just write our decision at the end, because people can ask again and have this.

I

Here I'll go back there, I'm not at I'm, not super concerned about this one you know admit: er executing into pods and uh creating vmware are two different, um really sets of permissions, and you know regular users don't necessarily have to execute pods.

I

A

Worried about this from a practical standpoint, really at all, I'm worried about this entirely from a perception standpoint.

I

I I I don't know I mean I've installed a lot of kubernetes applications and a lot of them, you know, are privileged without saying anything about it or um do a lot of you know, wait and on upstream you know it's kind of root by default anyway,.

D

Again, which doesn't mean it's a good thing.

A

The buses have potential to damage our version, one offering. So if we uh come out the gate with version one and then we talk about uh root privileges, and things like this, my impression is that that's going to instill some sort of doubt and whether that doubt is founded in reality or not. I'd prefer if we can pull it off to just not even have to go down that path. I think that's kind of what we're leaning towards at least right now.

A

Yeah any other thoughts on this. We don't have to completely commit to something right this moment, but I'm inclined to leave it on the list for now and maybe continue this discussion.

A

uh If we, if we find that it's not viable for us to go non-root in a reasonable time period, then maybe we'll open this back up and say. I think this is going to hold us back from version 1 too long.

A

Maybe we should look at some of these documentation or how we communicate this instead.

A

Does that sound good.

I

Okay works for me.

A

Excellent um great discussion, I uh yeah. I think this was a a good one, so the next one on the list is this persistent containerist volumes with qcal deltas. I I put this one on here and the only reason I did this was from a community traction perspective.

A

So when somebody purchased a project for the first time, everyone uses container disks because it's the easiest way to just start their first virtual machine and see it working and they don't have to think about how to import their virtual machine root disk and all that. So the idea with persistent container disks is.

A

We would give somebody an option immediately when they're just trying to play around the key vert to use the fully fledged features that they get, uh with kuvert being able to stop and start virtual machines and potentially, if we had like snapshots, enabled by them they'd, be able to snapshot and restore, and so it's it's not something that I necessarily see. I think some people will use it production, but I see it as something that users will um will definitely take advantage of with their first interactions with keifert.

A

What do you? What do you all think is this one important or.

F

F

I agree: it's important, um I think most people to get community engagement. You have to be able to go to the project and instantly, have something working and see the benefits so anything to assist in that we'll get more people to use it and contribute as well.

F

It's cool yeah, especially if it's a low-hanging fruit and something simple to do. I.

A

Think it's pretty easy for us as well. I think it's an easy win, so it's not going to take a lot of effort from us to get this to work.

J

Hello, this is fabian from redhead um about this one. um I totally see it's a useful feature, but why would we make them part of the mvp4 v1.

A

The my thought was so when we make noise about version, one we're gonna have, I hope new people uh checking out the project and if it's the first time engaging with the project, if we have a a clear path for them to just start virtual machines in a persistent way and stop them and they can just get things work immediately.

A

Then it's a path for us to gain traction with this person. If they see this just easy, then they won't give up. So.

F

A

About, I think, maybe five minutes really with somebody checking out something new. They should be able to install it without any issue, and then you have a couple minutes of them playing around with it before they're going to give up.

A

So I see this as a way of allowing them to have a good first experience. But what do you think fabian.

J

My whole worry about container discs is really I mean it. I totally understand the use case of having, like you, know, well crafted and created container disks right like everything we know, but it doesn't scale if you come up with your custom, vm images right. I know plenty of users who have like 20, 20, gig size, vm images, hundred gigs, right or even larger vm images, and that's what container disks fail right.

J

The registries are not tuned towards this with, like these large blobs, I know of issues were like huge java, binary java binaries crash registries in the past, and I I see the same issue that people will get the wrong expectations about vms right. I I have the worry that contain that I have that ever since right and that people get the wrong impression of this delivery mechanism. It is well suited for crafted images, but it's not a good mechanism for custom images that you prepare outside right.

J

If you know the constraints right, but not for again, if you have a windows, vm put databases and all the java stuff inside of it, it would be too fat for registry it's not suited, and that is why I have my reservations about putting setting the wrong expectations on such.

A

A feature so, um let's say you're encountering kuvert for the first time. How would you you know our whole feature set? You know the whole ecosystem.

A

How would you communicate to this person um who's starting their first virtual machine where, where to get the disk where to consume it, and how to do this, would you yeah.

J

I won't say anything else. I I think. To be honest, I think what would make the story clearer in my opinion, more versatile is to say we purposely contained it is like raised first, you know stateless workloads, right, that's a great story, because yeah it's better right and anything that requires persistence. We require the vm image to be on a pvc and for that, in order to achieve that right today we know we could use cdi, but that's cumbersome to a certain degree, because you need to install cdi in advance to cuber one.

J

So, for example, one thing I could imagine which would also achieve this way to simply do sorry. Let me rewind wind back a little bit is, I think, if we say now, you want to do a persistent vm right copy this or make it exp. I don't know the wording right so being with beer with me on the wording copy this container disk to pvc, and you can use it as a persistent vm right and cdi is doing it so by including cdi getting cdr closer to keyword, including it, including certain parts.

J

In order to make this easy right simply put a container just on pv, I think that would help, because then it's clear, oh it's the pb, it's a persistent volume. Oh yeah click, yeah! Absolutely that's clear right! So the words already imply that persistence is so much clearer and you know then you know the user is also getting the idea. Oh, so I can create a pv to modify my vm. I can upload random vms at arbitrary sizes and pvs are suited for bigger sizes right two pvs, all right.

J

That makes sense right, so making it easier easier to move a container this to pv to get started could be something that I think could help to to solve. That problem differently.

A

So I understand what you're getting at uh my concerns here is: we've already introduced in the first few seconds that somebody is looking at this project. We've introduced another project so cdi so somebody's.

J

That's why I said sorry, that's why I said it today: it's a pita right, but that's why I said the different option to have persistence is by pulling cdi in or you know, leveraging it differently. But yes, as part, it needs to be part of cuber. The ability to have a container disk on a pvp needs to be part of core kubernetes right. Let's talk about that. um So do you think that we should bundle cdi with keyboard?

J

I would see that as an option right I mean we discuss here right I out. First, I want to make sure that I explain my problem with that story about the persistent on container disk and the wrong explanations about. You know the versatility. If you could take with that way of container disks and that for persistence, I would rather like to focus on pvcs and everything we do with pvs today, centered around cdi.

J

So yes, right if we say that story is if we agree right that for persistence, pvs are a better story, then we can look at options and one of the options would be pull cdi closer to kubert incorporate it directly, make it a core controller, for example, to not have it stand alone, but be part we be built into keyboard, because then we eliminate the problem. That is an external dependency.

A

I don't want to talk about cdi uh in this initial like I want them to use cdi, and I want that to be happening behind the scenes. But in the first few, like we're talking about people's first interactions with it. I want to be cuter and I want a simple manifest and I want it to be streamlined where they just do the thing and it works, and if that cdi, working behind the scenes, that's great. But we need to streamline how we package and deliver that with cube vert.

H

But I have a question and father and just to to understand your point, so your you, you want to disallow completely the usage of persistent uh container disk, no.

A

It'll make it in it's more of how we.

H

Right, but if it make it wait, but if it makes it in and you still have some images on which you cannot use it, that's a problem. Oh that's my point exactly so either, so you cannot leave it and let the user kind of suddenly need to understand that you need to conv move to cdi right. You need to documentation as we covered right so either either you explicitly defined, give some limit to the image size or you disallow or you. If you go to cdi just disallow the other option, you cannot leave it.

J

One option right if we ignore ci another option, for example- and my point is here- I just want to highlight the problem and I cannot come up with a solution in two minutes or five or seven. So one option is right. We could say we have a similar api, which is reference. The container disk right, but instead of you know putting it into an empty gear on the node right. We at the same time reference the pv and what kubernetes doing for us.

J

It's pulling down the pvc and putting it on the on the pv and we launched the vm from the pv right. So it's effectively a subset of what cdi does simply build on the kubrick api for having something like a seed image right, the seed image which is put on the pvc and then we're done right. Then you only need the api put it on the pve and that's it. I'm not saying it's good, but I just want to say they're different options and ezra. I agree.

J

Actually we should actually put up limits on the container disks in order to prevent that people are abusing it like. I think there's no question that we should an upper limit of 100 gig on a qcaw which should be put into a into a container image, because it's killing my interest.

A

Yeah, but that's not that's, not something we necessarily need to enforce. I mean if they're lets them uplift dates or upload a 100 gig container image. Then they can use it. I don't know what the limits are necessarily.

A

Fair point.

J

A

Check with common registries um yeah, I think it's easy enough to just say you know you're limited by what your registry allows you to upload here and here's another path for you. If you need to consider this, I I I don't necessarily think that this is a problem for this initial user who's just wanting to play around with cuber. For the first time sure it's a problem for somebody who's, making a production usage out of kupert.

A

But if they're doing that, surely they are investing a little bit more time than the five minutes that they used to install and run a virtual machine on minicube.

J

By the way you run into I, the problem is: if we strengthen this feature too much, I think we run into problems of the you know over the course of the of the lifetime of the project, because, like a hundred gigabyte image one side, one problem is like the registry side and I think it's already a problem like with docker up today or quay right, but on the other side. Actually, we then also have the requirement that nodes are limited by their storage size right.

J

So you can have that 100 gig image, but you need to pull it down to the node. You have to need to have it there right, even even only if you want to to run the overlay. So I I really don't think that this technical solution is scalable to to to the images and that we put the users on the wrong track right. I think we focus them on the on. In my opinion, non-scalable or non-future proof solution right, because I think pvs are when it comes to persistence and huge vms superior.

B

J

B

Think I I think that container disks are a great feature to demo cubesat, and this is, I think, what it was meant for initially, and we even have a set of examples in the examples directory, and I think that what fabian suggested in the beginning that so and it it somehow connects to what you david said, that uh what will be the initial experience of a user with keyboard, and I think that making something like okay welcome to cube root here is a container disk and you can deploy it.

B

But this is a demo and we show him a very small subset of what kubrick can do and then, like every demo right, you don't show everything. You just show some few basic highlights and then you can tell the user. So if you want the full cube root experience, you need.

H

Persistency, but I think that contradict actually the definition that david put because the definition is the version one of production. So it's not a demo. It's not it's a version, one, it's a first impression of the production and I think the problem coming from the different view: fabian and david because david, you are saying first impression and fabian correctly say: okay, if the first impression was good, I want to continue right and now I'm stuck with something that is not scalable.

H

I don't want in a half a year to go back and starting to change stuff, because I choose the the wrong stuff. On the other hand, I don't want too complicated process to start with, so it's kind of a trade-off, and I think that if we can guarantee that someone knows not a demo and not so on, but he knows that this is kind of a intermediate or something that is limited for the future.

H

You can still allow it, but we need to clearly make sure it. He doesn't stick with that forever. Right.

J

And I think that is why I said I think it's definitely something I mean, there's no question that we want to keep container disks right because they're so cool to get started, and that's why I said you know: let's see how we can connect them right, how there's a small delta to get them on the track when they get to the versatile solution. Pb is right and that's why I had that idea, and I don't know how the implementation would look but to say: okay, now do this small change.

J

You can still pull it this way, but you will end up with something that is first giving you persistence for this specific image, but at the same time you get on track pvs on my way to go to do persistence with large vms right, yeah.

A

But you're still it's the same. It's the same track, so the limiting factor here is the container disc itself, so we're talking about putting too much too large of information inside container disks. So if they're going down the path and the first interaction was look at the hair disc, then we've already we're saying that that's a problem, then I don't see how we're solving anything by not letting them use a pvc backing container disk or directly importing that container disk onto a pvsc itself, like I don't see where either of these things really matter.

A

It's the same. It's just the same. uh It's the same problem we're just packaging it in two different ways. That's all we're talking about here.

J

A

Could you I I think I lost? Are we saying that uh cantare dis themselves are the problems so uh placing a container uh sorry, a virtual machine image in the container image and uploading that to registry?

A

Is that the problem that we're saying people are going to encounter that pattern is one they're going to encounter as they move forward years later?.

J

I think there are a couple of technical problems right, so the registry is one of them right in the aspects when it comes to using this non-shared storage when pulling it back to the node, for example, um and um the then expectation to to you know that everything is built that I mean by introducing this persistency on pvs right, the overlay persistence on pvs.

J

We still focus the delivery path and we we still we effectively say our primary path to delivering base images or or os images is container disk right. I think with adding the persistency to container disks.

J

We really highlight this feature, and that is what I think is wrong, because the container disk approach, in my opinion, is not versatile. It does not support network storage and for live migration. We also need to oh yeah laughing, let's not get into live migration, but I think because we don't to me it's important, because I think it's. The right technical thing is to focus on pvts pv pvs, to be the versatile storage uh mechanism for a virtual machine disks for data disks and os disks, and we don't get this component into the picture.

J

If we stick to the container disk only path right, it is somehow touching it, but only as an overlay.

A

Here's the here's, the issue, the first interaction somebody has with cooper they're going to want to say: where do I? How do I get my image into this system? I've got an image and, if they're stuck spinning their wheels just on this, but they're not going to move past that. So that's why we say: use container disk as your first impression get the thing up and going and that's a path that you can take.

A

But if we're um saying that it doesn't matter if we're saying that their first interaction is using antenna disk that they put directly on a pvc using cdi or they're using a guitar disk and we're making a backing volume using a pvc. That's irrelevant really because they're they're, starting with the container.

J

Disc, though I I think it's not irrelevant, because the problem with the overlay is you need to keep the pv the the it is, it doesn't work alone right. You cannot have that overlay alone right so from a flow perspective. You need that container disk in order to to leverage this overlay functionality.

J

What I would try to focus on is you can use that ppc and if you go over to that persistence topic, you then discover. Oh ho, the model is simple. I can put anything on a pv and it will be persisted right and use that ibm's right. So I want to actually use the container disk as the starting point to quickly get started, but then move the focus over to persistent volumes.

J

If we go over to that persistence topic and let the user discover that the model is actually very simple that they can then do any. You know that they can craft the pvs in whatever way they want, they can prep they use vert, install or whatever, to create those pbs to have jenkins pipelines to create them. I think to me: it's like guiding the user right. Expanding the user's knowledge introducing him to that new concept of pvs, okay,.

A

Yeah that makes sense to me, so I'm okay, with that. The only way I'm okay with that is, if we streamline our installation of cdi and how we message this.

J

Perfect, I'm fully fully on board and um we can discuss actually the implementation. Actually, you know, I think, important. What we hear is, I think the definite gap is that the step from container disk over 2pd is too large right. It's there is no friendly user-friendly flow to do this. Cdi is an option better inclusion. I mean there's now many options. How we can improve that to me yeah, so yeah, okay, so we're.

A

Gonna we're gonna make that the task- that's gonna, be um streamlining uh people's first interaction with persistent um virtual machines and we'll we'll take that offline, but I think that's something that we have to have for version one uh so does it have to be persistent container? Just fine doesn't have to be the way. I outline the test now I'll revise this.

H

Right but fabian you mentioned that there might be other options than cdi to do this. Transition.

J

Yeah I mean we I mean cdi- has has many great features right. It has qcow support, it. Has you know the application? The methods are different, and so I think it's with there's no question that will be able to use it. The question is, I mean there are now many questions coming to the picture.

J

Right cdi has been stand alone, but on the other tightly integrated with keywords, so we could discuss pulling it in and then we can directly leverage that functionality one way or the other right, maybe adding a bit more glue here and there improving the apis to have it even more tightly integrated. That is one option, but if we're saying we need one simple functionality of of simply putting a simply right in quotes. If you don't see me hello in quotes, I'm copying a container disk onto a pv.

J

Then I could imagine that kubert might get a simple feature to simply copy um a container disk image onto a pv. So that has to be discussed, and I don't want to exclude any option. I don't want to propose any option yeah. I don't want.

A

To get into the implementation of this yeah, that's so we have like one minute. I don't think we're gonna get much further. um We got a little over, we got. Maybe halfway, that's shoot. We didn't get very far. Did we sorry? The topic took quite a while later.

J

We spent like 20 minutes it's important.

A

To me as well, so I I think through this whole discussion, the one thing that's really stood out is that um our user guide and how people perceive and really encounter key vert is the thing that is really important to us for version one. So before you came online fabian there was discussion about our user guide needing to be something that's just way more way easier for people to find the information they need quickly and maybe restructuring that and looking at that is probably priority. One, yes yeah, so we didn't, we didn't get very far.

A

We have more. um What do you all think about? Maybe just doing I think we probably not miss out in another meeting. Do you think we should schedule something same time next week? Does that work sounds great to me: yep, yep, okay, we'll do uh another one.

J

Like one weeks.

A

J

Two weeks uh ah two weeks is good. Yeah two weeks would be better because I know that some people are video and we'll be back in two weeks.

A

Yeah, that's great okay, two weeks from now I'll put it on the community calendar and I will send out a reminder on the mailing list and we'll talk about also all right. Thanks everyone, uh great discussion. This has been productive for sure. I appreciate it. Thank you, david thanks.

I

A

All right, thank you.

B

Thank you. Thank you. Bye-Bye thanks david.

B

B