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E
Good
morning,
councilor
Governor
Almas
from
the
Beeson
holbeck
quad.
N
P
R
Thank
you
very
much.
Everyone
moving
to
item
agenda
number
one.
P
Thank
you,
chair
under
gender
item,
wonder
and
no
appeals
against
the
refusal
of
inspection
of
documents
under
a
gender
item.
Two.
There
are
no
exempt
items
agenda
item
three.
There
are
no
late
items.
A
gender
item
four
could
ask
members
to
declare
any
interests
and
I
take
silence.
As
there
are
no
agenda
item,
five
apologies
have
been
received
from
councilor
Downs.
R
Thank
you
very
much
so
moving
on
to
the
minutes
of
the
last
meeting
held
on
the
6th
of
February,
so
just
to
do
well,
I've
lost
myself.
Now
that
always
helps.
Are
there
any?
Are
these
the
correct
record
of
the
previous
meeting
I'll
take
silence
as
a
yes.
Are
there
any
matters
arising
from
the
minutes,
yep.
A
There
were
queries
around
Target
risk
ratings,
review
of
benchmarking,
steps
on
fois
and
SAR
requests,
and
also
the
number
of
times
that
the
information
government
services
had
to
refuse
to
respond
to
information
requests,
because
that
information
is
already
public
available.
Now
I
do
believe
that
a
note
has
been
circulated
to
members
on
that
by
the
head
of
information,
management
and
governance.
A
Moving
on
to
minute
64..
That
was
the
update
report
on
the
information
on
digital
service,
so
remember
to
ask
for
details
of
the
opportunities
that
are
there
for
member
Democratic
scrutiny
of
major
system
failure
reports.
Now
the
deputy
chief
digital
information
I've
also
has
advised
that
he's
checked,
that
with
the
intelligence
and
policy
manager
and
we'd
advised
that
reports
containing
assurances
on
major
system
risks
do
go
to
the
corporate
leadership
team
and
then
they
are
reported
through
to
members
through
the
annual
risk
report
to
the
executive
board.
A
There
was
also
a
question
on
how
the
information
and
digital
service
are
ensuring
the
prioritization
of
ICT
projects
and
that
they're
aligned
with
member
priorities.
So
that
there's
again
appropriate
Democratic
oversight
there,
so
I've
been
advised
that
the
services
currently
in
the
process
of
putting
together
that
prioritized
lists
of
the
IT
projects.
This
is
something
that's
been
requested
as
well
by
the
the
labor
review
group
and
it's
currently
being
produced
minute
65.
So
that
was
the
internal
audit
update
report.
A
So
I
think
there
were
various
suggestions
there
around
matters
that
can
be
included
within
the
the
sequence
of
plan
and
update
reports
that
we
give.
So
that's
something
that
you
will
see
coming
through.
There
was
also
a
briefing
now
that
we
circulated
reaffirming
the
time
scales
outlined
in
our
data
analytics
strategy.
So
ultimately,
what
we're
saying
there
is
that
those
time
scales
are
appropriate
to
enable
us
to
to
embed
a
solid
foundation
at
each
stage
of
that
strategy
and
that's
kind
of
irrespective
of
our
resource
level.
A
So
hopefully
that
gives
the
Assurance
there
minute.
66
I
think
it
was
a
query
around
agency
in
ir35
costs.
That's
been
responded
to
by
the
deputy
chief
officer
and
a
further
question
I
think
has
come
back
from
councilor
downson
over
the
weekend
and
that's
being
looked
at.
A
Finally,
when
it's
67
the
annual
Assurance
reports
in
relation
to
employment
policies
and
employee
conduct,
the
further
assurances
were
sorted
there
in
respective
Performance
Management
now,
I
believe
that's
subject
to
a
scrutiny
inquiry
with
a
report
due
this
month,
so
there'll
be
an
opportunity
to
see
what's
covered
there.
Q
There
we
go
I'm
minute
64.,
it
does
still
seem
an
unduly
tortuous
route
we
have
to
go
through,
but
what
is
actually
quite
a
serious
risk.
Q
R
Counselor
Flynn
yeah.
R
Any
of
the
maps
to
Rising
okay.
So
moving
on
to
item
number,
eight,
the
internal
audit
plan
2023
to
2024.
H
Morning,
this
report
presents
our
proposed
plan
for
2324
it.
The
report
runs
through
the
process
we
go
through
to
develop
the
plan,
including
the
legal
and
Regulatory
framework.
H
H
We
also
have
regular
dialogue
with
colleagues
in
core
cities
and
within
South
and
West
Yorkshire
to
ensure
that
we
are
aware
of
emerging
risks
within
other
councils,
and
we
also
undertake
Horizon
scanning
through
training
and
events
and
key
Publications,
such
as
the
Institute
of
internal
Auditors
risk
and
focus
report,
which
highlights
the
main
areas
of
concern
for
audit
professionals.
H
We
start
the
year
with
a
small
drop
in
resources.
The
services
currently
undergoing
a
restructure,
which
will
change
the
profile
of
the
grades
across
the
team
to
align
with
other
areas
within
financial
services
and
to
reflect
the
increase
in
complexity
of
the
work
that's
been
carried
out
by
the
team.
We
anticipate
that
the
number
of
FTE
within
the
team
will
increase
through
the
restructure
as
we
recruit
into
vacant
posts.
H
H
We
will
report
any
significant
updates
to
the
plan
during
the
year
through
our
update
reports,
along
with
progress
in
delivering
the
plan,
we
will
measure
success
in
delivering
the
plan
through
recommendation
tracking,
which
we
will
continue
to
embed
across
the
council
feedback
from
order
clients
through
our
customer
service
questionnaire,
which
we
are
reviewing
at
the
moment
and
delivery
of
the
plan
through
time
spent.
We'll
continue
to
review
these
measures
throughout
the
year
to
ensure
relevant
performance
and
information
is
reported
to
the
committee.
N
Yes,
please
do
on
page
29
and
download
it
in
ICT.
The
first
item
on
bridge
29
refers
to
privileged
use
the
follow-up,
who
are
the
privileged
users,
and
how
do
you
get
on
the
list?
And
how
do
you
get
off
the
list
and
have
your
chair
seen
this
list,
because
it's
not
I'd
like
to
say
that
if
I,
were
you
I'd
like
to
see
that
list
who
are
privileged
users.
H
Privileged
users
are
generally
members
of
the
integrated
digital
service
and
what
it
means
is
they
have
increased
enhanced
privileges
within
the
infrastructure
rather
than
related
to
specific
applications.
H
There
is
a
process
in
place
within
the
directorate
to
grant
that
only
to
people
who
need
it
and
also
for
time,
limited
top
for
a
limited
period
of
time,
so
that
it's
controlled
and
that
people
don't
have
access
when
they
don't
require
it
in
terms
of
a
list.
I
don't
currently
have
that,
but
I
believe
we
could
probably
get
one
for
committee
if
they
would
like
it.
H
R
H
N
O
O
We've
had
in
the
past
about
the
the
results
of
any
issues
referred
by
whistleblowers,
not
just
in
terms
of
the
outcome,
but
what
the
outcome
was
so
far
as
the
Whistleblower
was
concerned,
you
know,
what's
the
Whistleblower
happy
with
the
the
outcome,
if
not,
why
not
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
I
think
I
was
given
a
list
of
the
number
of
cases
last
year
that
came
up,
but
it
didn't
really
tell
me
anything
about
the
the
sort
of
satisfaction
or
otherwise
of
the
personal
actually
reported.
I
Thank
you,
councilor
Flynn
it
it's
a
difficult
one
to
answer,
because
the
whistleblown
hotline
we
do
get
so
many
Anonymous
whistleblowing
referrals,
so
you
can't
actually
get
feedback
from
those
that
are
Anonymous,
but
the
ones
that
we
have
received.
We
can
ask
those
people
if
you,
if
that's
what
you'd
like.
O
It
would
be
possible
to
sort
of
separate
out
the
ones
that
are
an
anonymous
I
I,
fully
understand
the
the
reasons
why
you
can't
follow
those
up
with
the
ones
that
are
actually
given
with
a
person's
contact
details
in
confidence.
Obviously,
but
I
would
like
to
know
you
know
what
the
reaction
on
The
Whistleblower
actually
was
to
the
information
that
they
gave.
I
O
I
I
I
understand
the
sensitivity
sort
of
issues,
but
there
is
nothing
more
sensitive
than
a
whistleblower
coming
forward
and
giving
information,
and
by
and
large,
in
my
experience,
it's
The
Whistleblower
who
gets
the
rough
end
of
the
stick
rather
than
the
person
to
whom
they've
made
the
complaint
about.
O
So
it's
it's
from
that
angle.
I
want
to
make
sure
the
Whistleblower
is,
is
absolutely
protected
and
surely
the
information
can
be
anonymized.
We
don't
have
to
go
into
details
in
open
Forum
about
a
whistleblowing
sort
of
issue,
but
we
can
have
a
closed
session.
Surely,
with
no
records
kept
Etc
I.
R
I
think
if
I
can
just
enjoy
to
this
point,
I
think
there's
a
difference
between
knowing
that
the
Whistleblower
is
satisfied
and
known
as
specifics
and
I
think
there's
a
fair
conversation
about
knowing
whether
or
not
the
person
that's
whistleblower
is
confident
that
their
concerns
have
been
taken
on
board
without
because
at
the
same
time
as
I
get
your
opponent,
maybe
we
can
have
a
confidential
session.
Actually,
we
want
to
reassure
the
public
that
we
take
whistleblowing
confidential
seriously
without
necessarily
giving
details
I
think.
R
Perhaps
if
we
have
some
form
of
assurance
around,
actually
those
who
have
will
have
been
willing
to
come
forward.
Are
they
satisfied
with
how
the
processes
worked?
Are
they
satisfied
that
the
cons
that
they
were
considered
their
considerations
were
taken
on
board
and
are
they
satisfied
that
there
actually
there's
been
no
repercussions
for
them
to
give
the
committee
assurance
that
the
process
is
working
without
getting
into
the
really
difficult
process
of
anonymizing
and
releasing
information
that
we
may
not
intentionally
want
to
release
because
they're
quite
sensitive?
Would
that
be
satisfactory?
Councilor.
O
In
a
word,
no
I
I
I,
want
to
know
I
want
to
know
whether
the
Whistleblower
was
satisfied.
Yeah,
you
know
based
and
I
need
to
know
not
that
I'll
be
given
assurances
by
anybody.
That's
that's
the
road
to
damnation.
I
want
to
know
what
the
Whistleblower
actually
felt
about
it.
R
So
that's
the
point.
I've
just
said
that
we
actually
need
to
get
some
reassurance.
Sorry,
Counsel,
on
whether
the
Whistleblower
was
happy
without
necessarily
delving
into
the
detail.
The
last
thing
I
think
we
need
to
do
is
basically
be
potentially
bringing
sensitive
cases
before
committee
members
whose
details
we
don't
necessarily.
What
we're
here
to
is
to
understand
the
Assurance,
not
necessarily
interrogate
the
process.
Yeah.
I
Can
I
also
add
we
need
to
be
careful
that
we
don't
want
to
put
people
off
whistleblowing.
The
danger
is,
if
we
start
asking
too
many
questions
and
asking
them
to
come
forward,
it
may
prevent
them
from
whistleblowing
in
the
future.
So
we
will
ask
the
question,
but
we
can't
force
them
to
give
an
answer.
O
Absolutely
understand
all
of
that,
but
that
there
is
nothing
worse
for
The
Whistleblower
than
basically
to
be
ignored
or
to
be
penalized.
We've
had
this
conversation
before
I
know
and
I
have
a
lot
of
experience
of
what
happens
to
whistleblowers,
and
it's
not
very
nice
I
I,
whatever
the
assurances
we
get
I
want
to
know
personally,
whether
or
not
The
Whistleblower
is
satisfied
that
the
correct
procedure
has
been
followed
through
whether
or
not
it
was
the
result
that
they
wanted
is
another
matter.
O
R
C
Yeah,
thank
you
chair
just
following
on
briefly
from
from
Billy's
points.
I
think
there
are
ways
and
means
of
asking
questions
in
a
non-threatening
way
and
leaving
it
to
the
discretion
of
the
person
to
whom
you're
asking
the
question
they
may
not
wish
to
engage,
but
they
might
see
it
as
a
further
opportunity
to
improve
the
quality
of
how
we
deal
with
these
things.
I
just
wanted
to
ask
a
couple
of
questions
chair
around
table,
one
on
page
24.
C
C
My
second
question
is
around
finance
and
key
financial
systems,
we're
reducing
the
amount
of
time
devoted
to
those,
and
yet
this
is
a
constant
theme
of
our
discussions.
As
a
committee-
and
in
fact
we've
raised
some
of
this
and
I
know
that
in
the
Grant
Thornton
report,
which
is
a
later
item
on
the
agenda,
there
are
references
to
shortcomings
in
those
processes
and
obviously
couldn't
talk
about
those
in
more
detail.
At
that
point,
and
and
also
the
reduction
in
the
amount
of
resource
being
devoted
to
procurement,
now
I
do
appreciate
it.
C
Obviously,
we
want
our
providers
as
far
as
possible
to
meet
some
of
our
climate
emergency
priorities,
so
I,
just
wonder
whether
this
is
enough
to
ensure
that's
happening
or
are
we
confident
that
the
office
is
responsible
for
procurement?
Are
now
undertaking
their
robust
approach
to
those
particular
aspects?
And
my
last
question:
we
should
be
pleased
to
hear
Eminem's
from
page
29
and
it
relates
to
dpias
which
data
protection
impact
assessments.
Could
the
officers
remind
us
why
there
was
a
limited
opinion
on
that
particular
issue?
C
I
mean
obviously
as
Ward
members
or
as
it
would
member
I'm
conscious
that
we
have
to
do
dpias
on
things
like
the
location
of
CCTV
cameras
to
combat
anti-social,
Behavior
or
whatever,
on
a
permanent
or
limited
basis,
so
I'd
just
be
interested
to
to
get
a
little
bit
more
information,
I'm
sure
it's
being
reported
here,
but
obviously
you
know
I'm
aging
atrifying,
mind
I've
lost
track
of
it.
Thank
you.
D
Thank
you,
counselor
in
terms
of
the
covert
response
and
the
business
grant
fraud,
we
have
got
to
the
end
of
the
process
with
those
now,
but
if
there
were
any
new
or
additional
queries
arising,
that
that
will
be
included
in
the
anti-fraud
and
Corruption
block
of
time,
I'll
be
able
to
give
a
final
update
on
that
as
part
of
the
annual
report
as
well.
Thank
you.
H
In
terms
of
the
finance
and
key
financial
systems
time,
that's
time
specifically
set
aside
for
work
within
those
pots.
There's
a
number
of
audits
throughout
the
rest
of
the
plan,
which
cover
a
financial
aspect.
In
fact,
I
think
about
72
of
the
plan
has
some
kind
of
Finance
attached
to
it
and
as
well
the
procurement
time,
although
it
has
decreased,
there,
will
be
elements
of
procurement
and
a
lot
of
the
transformation
work.
H
That's
happening
that
where
they
are
looking
at
awarding
contracts
or
getting
suppliers,
we
will
generally
have
a
look
at
that
process
anyway,
so
we
will
get
other
Assurance
through
those,
as
well
as
the
work
specifically
within
the
area
of
procurement.
H
In
relation
to
the
dpias
The
Limited
opinion
was
around
the
fact
that
the
processes
within
the
information
governance
department
at
the
time
didn't
allow
us
to
have
confidence
that
we
had
completed
all
the
required
gpias
that
we
needed
to
complete
and
that
they'd
all
been
signed
off.
The
service
is
currently
looking
at
that
process
reviewing
that
process.
K
Thank
you
just
a
couple
of
general
ones
from
me.
If
I
may,
on
page
23
paragraph
3.2,
you
refer
to
looking
to
draw
on
a
multitude
of
other
work
streams
to
help
deliver
the
annual
opinion,
including
an
increased
focus
on
consultancy,
working
client
liaison
activities.
Could
you
just
explain
to
me
what
you
mean
by
how
well,
how
can
we,
how
can
you
use
consultancy
work
to
inform
your
opinion?
K
I
So
within
that
consultancy
area
of
work
we're,
including
working
alongside
project
boards.
You
know
the
the
other
audit
work
that
we
bring
to
audit
committee
as
part
of
the
update
reports.
I
Sometimes
we
we
do
map
out
the
where
we
get
our
assurances
for
so
say,
for
example,
if
ofsted
come
in,
we
do
bring
their
assurances
in.
So
it
is
from
a
multitude
of
different
areas.
K
Thank
you.
So
one
would
like
to
assume
that
the
work
that's
done
by
ofsted,
for
example,
is
of
a
satisfactory
quality
that
you
can
place
Reliance
upon.
But
are
you
confident
that
all
of
the
other
Assurance
providers
that
you'll
take
Assurance
from
if
you
like,
for
your
opinion,
that
you
are
satisfied
with
the
quality
and
the
output
of
their
work.
I
We'd
only
take
assurances
from
those
that
we're
deemed
to
be
reputable.
K
I'll
just
have
one
more
sorry.
Thank
you,
my
my
second
and
last
question
is
again
a
general
question
and
it
does
link
back
to
the
advisory
element
that
we've
just
talked
about.
So
quite
a
few
references
in
your
plan
to
providing
support
and
Challenge
and
I
know.
We've
said
before
that.
That's
good,
it's
good
practice
to
to
be
to
be
in
that
space
But.
K
How
do
you
ensure
that
you're
not
then
coming
back
later
down
the
line
and
marking
your
own
homework
for
advice
that
you've
given
at
point
in
time
and
then
you're
providing
Assurance
on
it
later
and
and
linked
to
that
is?
Do
you
put
a
limit
on
on
the
amount
of
time
in
your
plan
that
you
will
put
to
advisory
I,
don't
know,
I,
see
some
audit
committees.
That
say
no
more
than
say.
20
of
their
annual
plan
will
be
made
up
of
advisory
time.
Is
that
something
that
you
consider.
I
Yes,
we
do
consider
it,
but
we
don't.
We
don't
actually
give
advice.
We
the
the
advice
we
give
is
to
explore
the
options.
Have
they
considered
X,
Y
and
Z?
Have
they
provided
the
right
challenge
so
and
also
we
are
never
the
decision
maker
in
any
of
this
process.
I
We
we
also
do
some
work,
like
Angela's,
currently
doing
some
work
on
the
Core
Business
transformation,
where
we
provide
an
assurance
report
every
quarter,
so
it
is
given
like
mini
audit
feedback
on
on
particular
processes
like
the
there's,
a
procurement
of
the
transformation
partner,
for
example.
So
there
are
many
deliverables
within
within
some
of
this
work
we
do,
but
it
depends
on
the
scale
of
the
project
that
we're
working
alongside.
K
R
Yeah
just
bear
in
mind
the
fire
alarm
is
going
to
go
off
in
about
40
seconds.
E
I'll
be
brief.
Thank
you
on
base
38
priority
Awards
and
homelessness,
designation
HRA.
You
might
outline
the
overview
of
assurance
and
Assurance
teams
in
terms
of
the
risks
it
just
says
various.
E
Could
you
please
sort
of
outline
what
a
couple
of,
if
you
like
major
risks
to
to
this,
please
to
the
audit
area.
Thank
you.
H
Safeguarding
because
part
of
the
decision
making
process
is,
it
is
about
making
sure
that
it
where
people
may
be
statutorily
homeless,
that
we've
identified
that
and
we're
doing
what
we
can
do.
H
And
there
will
be
an
element
of
risk
around
the
budget
as
well,
because
we
will
be
taking
time
to
do
those
Awards
and
to
there'll
be
officer
time
involved
in
any
challenge
to
those
Awards,
as
every
person
who
get
success
does
have
a
right
to
challenge
that.
So
it's
about
making
sure
that
the
processes
are
there
to
make
sure
that
the
decisions
are
robust
so
that
that
challenge
doesn't
happen.
H
When
it
does
it's
not
a
long,
protracted
process
that
results
in
Ombudsman
and
also
there'll,
be
information
governance
because
of
the
sensitivity
of
a
lot
of
the
data
that
will
be
looked
at
in
relation
to
the
people
that
they're
assessing.
R
Hello
counselor
any
other
questions
or
comments.
No,
so
moving
to
the
recommendation,
then
the
corporate
does
the
copper.
Do
we,
the
copper
governments,
are
not
a
commitments
to
be
through.
In
the
days.
Does
the
corporate
governance
knowledge
committee
is
asked
to
review
and
approve
the
proposed
internal
audit
plan
for
2023
2024.
I'll
take
silences,
we
approve
it.
R
There
we
go
and
I
clearly
need
to
have
more
copy,
because
apparently
I
can't
read
right.
Moving
on
to
the
statement
of
internal
control
in
relation
to
Estate
Management.
G
Thank
you,
chair,
I'll,
just
introduce
my
colleagues
who
have
joined
us
as
well.
Richard
Jackson
is
is
head
of
facilities,
management,
I'm,
Holly,
Cook,
Who's,
chief
officer
for
sustainability,
sustainability,
even
environment
and
air
quality.
G
So
this
report
covers
the
the
control
around
our
Estate
Management,
which
is
as
a
landowner
only
is.
It
is
significant.
We
have
over
700
operational
properties
and
over
9
000
hectares
of
land
we're
the
largest
in
terms
of
geographical
area
of
the
core
cities,
which
means
we
do
have
an
extensive
estate.
G
F
Thank
you.
So
the
the
first
thing
to
people
just
note
is
that
in
20
2021
there
was
a
review
of
Estate
Management
functions
and
through
that
process
the
the
we
we
found
that
there
was
a
number
of
activities
being
undertaken
in
different
parts
of
the
organization
around
Estate
Management.
So
as
a
result
of
the
review,
the
the
decision
was
taken
to
to
bring
those
people
and
and
those
functions
that
were
sat
elsewhere
in
the
the
organization,
either
into
Asset
Management
facilities,
management
or
sustainable
Engine
air
quality.
F
To
ensure
that
we've
got
some
very
clear
decision
making
and
I
suppose
Assurance
around
the
work
that
was
being
undertaken,
so
so
that
really
reinforced
the
roles
and
responsibilities
around
the
Estate
Management
functions
and
and
they
are
set
out
on
page
three
of
the
I'm
sorry
I'm.
Looking
at
my
version,
it
is
the
third
page
of
the
the
report
and
and
when,
in
there
it's
identifies
the
different
roles
of
the
the
three
elements
of
Estate
Management
I'll.
F
Just
quickly
summarize,
in
terms
of
asset
management,
that's
around
the
strategic
planning
of
the
estate,
the
the
leasing
and
disposal
of
properties
and
providing
the
land
record
Services,
which
many
members
might
might
have
already
drawn
on
that
as
a
resource
to
understand
who
is
managing
different
parts
of
our
portfolio
and
Facilities
Management,
and
delivers
the
management
of
our
Civic
buildings,
including
security
in
front
of
house,
but
also
delivers
the
statutory
encyclical
maintenance
of
the
operational
estate
and
then
Paul.
F
This
team
in
terms
of
sustainable
Engine
air
quality
and
delivers
The
decarbonization
Works
again
to
our
to
our
estate,
but
also
is
undertaking
the
planned
maintenance
program
and,
and
the
purpose
of
that
being
sat
with
decarbonization,
is
to
ensure
that
a
holistic
approach
is
taken
to
looking
at
improvements
to
our
properties,
not
just
looking
at
maintenance
issues,
but
looking
at
how
we
can
better
those
properties
from
a
sustainability
perspective.
F
It's
worth
probably
just
me
setting
out
in
the
first
instance
the
governance
that
we
have
around
the
estate,
and
so
we
have
a
a
state
management
board
which
oversees
the
the
the
the
estate
and-
and
it
is
a
non-decision-making
board,
plus
it
provides
support
and
assurance
and
to
its
matters,
and
it's
chaired
by
the
chief
Asset
Management
regeneration
officer,
shared
with
the
other
Chief
officers
from
the
Estate
Management
world
and
and
and
that
meets
on
a
monthly
basis
and
underneath
that
there's
an
estate
Management
Group,
which
is
a
a
an
officer-led
group
chaired
by
himself
and
my
role
as
head
of
asset
management
and
that's
about
bringing
together
and
understanding
the
the
any
issues
that
are
facing
individual
directories
and
services,
but
also
allowing
us
to
have
a
combined,
comprehensive
and
coordinated
approach
to
our
a
state
management
approach
and
also
the
the
way
in
which
we
are
and
responding
to
requests
and
and
and
work.
F
That's
been
asked
for
film
different
directions
and
that
reports
directly
into
the
Estate
Management
Group.
It's
at
the
Estate
Management
board
itself
sitting
within
each
directory.
We
then
have
an
a
state
or
an
asset
management
group,
and
that
is
chaired
by
someone
in
most
cases,
a
chief
officer
within
each
directorate
and
has
support
from
the
the
Estate
Management
teams,
and
that
is
the
the
key
opportunity
for
the
services
within
each
director
to
be
able
to
set
out
any
issues
they're
having
with
the
the
estate.
F
Any
early
heads
up
about
changes
or
of
the
release
of
property
from
their
management,
and
it
just
allows
us
to
to,
on
a
more
proactive
basis,
be
able
to
support
the
directorates
and
Service
delivery,
but
also
have
early
visibility
of
any
changes
that
that
need
to
be
made.
And
that
really
does
help
from
a
a
strategic
estate
planning
perspective.
But
it
also
helps
from
riches
and
police
teams
to
to
understand
where
they're
likely
to
have
pressures
for
become
an
operational
perspective
or
from
an
investment
need.
F
I'm
I
thought
it
was
useful.
Just
setting
out
that
that
governance
before
I
go
into
the
the
detail
of
how
the
estate
is
is
planned
and
managed,
and
the
the
the
oversight
or
the
Strategic
policy
Direction
around
that.
F
So
in
2001
there
was
a
a
new
Estate
Management
strategy,
which
was
approved
by
executive
board
in
November
2021,
and
that
was
brought
together
with
input
from
each
of
those
directory
asset
management
groups
and
also
Estate
Management
Group,
and
then
obviously,
the
oversight
of
corporate
Estate
Management
board.
F
And
that
was
really
key
in
terms
of
ensuring
that
we
had
buy-in
and
the
the
strategy
was
reflexive
of
the
the
direction
of
travel
within
each
Direction,
but
it
all
and
and
that
actually
there
was
broad
support
for
for
the
the
way
in
which
the
estate
was
going
to
be
managed
moving
forward.
F
So
that
document
really
sets
out
the
the
some
really
really
clear,
guiding
principles
about
how
we
would
plan
our
estate,
how
we
would
release
properties
or
make
decisions
about
how
how
we
might
change
our
estate
in
the
future
and
the
fact
that
that
needs
to
support
service
delivery,
but
also
the
growth
of
the
city
and
whilst
also
having
a
really
clear
focus
on
and
reducing
our
liabilities
and
then
showing
that
we
focus
on
our
best
best
quality
buildings
and
and
and
and
like
say,
reduce
that
and
the
the
the
the
poor
quality
buildings
that
we
have
in
the
estate
and
but
also
recognizing
that
we
needed
to
right
size.
F
The
estate.
Clearly,
following
the
pandemic,
we've
been
on
a
journey
of
asset
rationalization
now
for
over
10
years
and
the
pandemic
and
further
lead
tools
having
to
really
review
our
estate
requirements.
And
that
was
the
purpose
of
the
Estate
Management
strategy
to
set
out
in
a
post-covered
world.
F
What
that
might
mean,
and
clearly
the
pandemic
had
seen
and
substantial
changes
in
the
way
that
staff
were
working
and
utilizing
our
buildings,
but
also
the
way
in
which
Services
were
delivered
with
new
channels
opening
up
such
as
digitization
and
in
some
cases,
and
that
led
to
different
approaches
or
needs
for
services
within
our
buildings.
So
the
the
Estate
Management
strategy
is
a
really
clear
guiding
a
strategy
and
document
and
the
the
the
reports
itself
are.
F
The
appendix
to
the
report
then
sets
out
some
other
reports
and
the
the
guide
up
and
decisions
around
the
estate.
First
of
all,
we
have
the
annual
capsule
receipt
program
report
which
goes
to
executive
board
and
that
sets
out
our
disposal
strategy
and
also
the
the
properties
that
are
included
within
the
capital
receipt
program.
There's
the
climate
emergency
and
annual
report,
which
probably
leads
on
and
that
sets
out
and
the
interventions
around
how
our
estate,
not
just
buildings.
F
It
clearly
focuses
on
how
how
our
buildings
Can
can
be
improved
in
terms
of
their
sustainability,
but
it
also
sets
out
around
how
we
may
look
at
some
some
of
our
wider
estate,
so
our
land
Holdings,
and
how
that
can
support
decarbonization
energy
production,
Etc
and
then
there's
the
annual
Capital
program
report,
which
is
something
that
is
brought
forward
from
by
Finance
colleagues.
F
But
within
that
that
sets
out
where
we
we
are
going
to
see
investment
into
our
estate,
but
also
reach
across
to
our
disposal
strategy
and
and
clearly
the
the
generation
of
funds
to
support
that
Capital
program.
F
F
We
have
also
taken
the
opportunity
on
the
back
of
the
the
the
the
approval
of
the
Estate
Management
strategy,
to
review
our
online
presence
through
the
council's
internet
pages
and
and
the
internet
Pages
themselves,
and
to
and
more
clearly
set
out
how
we
will
make
decisions
around
our
Estates
I.
Think
it's
probably
worth
noting
that
we
still
acknowledge
that
we're-
probably
not
quite
there
in
terms
of
the
routes
that
that
inquiries
can
come
through.
So
certainly
we.
F
We
are
aware
that,
because
of
the
the
different
functions
and
different
governance
and
legislative
and
financial
requirements
around
different
parts
of
the
wider
estate,
so
in
terms
of
the
housing
revenue
account
land,
the
schools
and
highways
assets
that
sometimes
it's
not
entirely
clear.
Where,
where
to
go?
And
so
again,
you
know
learning
from
that.
We
are
going
to
have
a
further
concerted
effort
and
and
try
and
make
clear
that
the
the
the
land
records
inquiry
point
is
probably
the
first
part
of
contacts
and
from
there
it
we.
F
We
can
then
determine
which
parts
of
the
the
organization
is
then
responsible
for
for
the
asset
that
relates
to
the
inquiry
and
ensure
that
that
you,
the
members
members
of
the
public,
can
get
a
response
without
necessarily
going
around
various
departments.
F
F
Embedding
the
the
approach
and-
and
that's
just
through
many
many
years
of
the
the
organization,
change,
changing
direction
slightly
and
but
also
historic,
ownership,
vesting
of
assets
within
certain
directorates
and
so
I
think
through
the
governance
process
that
we've
now
got
in
place
and
we
are
starting
to
be
able
to
define
those
asks
and
ensure
that
the
there's,
a
broader
understanding
of
where
the
decisions
need
to
be
taken.
F
I.E
within
the
services,
the
the
OC
Estate
Management,
rather
than
within
directorates
themselves,
I
think
it's
also
probably
worth
those
noting
that
we
are
on
a
journey
with
our
information
systems.
F
F
What's
the
new
system
would
look
like
there's
systems
on
the
market
that
that
will
be
able
to
do
this
work
for
us
and
and
improve
the
the
the
way
in
which
our
data
is
held
and
organized,
and
and
clearly
that
requires
investment,
and
that's
something
that
again
we're
working
with
colleagues
in
IGS
to
bring
that
business
case
together
and
I.
F
Think
that
will
help
us
to
really
improve
on
on
that
Collective
service
that
we
can
offer
and
the
the
way
in
which
some
of
that
information
may
be
more
easily
accessed
by
the
public.
F
F
So,
for
example,
we've
identified
that
in
some
cases-
and
there
have
been
business
cases
that
have
been
coming
through
to
and
financial
performance
group
that
may
have
an
impact
on
the
Estates
that
may
not
have
necessarily
had
the
visibility
of
of
ourselves
in
asset
management
or
others
that
work
on
this
state
and
and
we've
now
working
with
colleagues
in
Capital
Finance.
F
We
are
ensuring
that
the
the
first
of
all
there's
a
requirement
for
those
reports
to
include
a
statement
around
their
engagement
with
Asset
Management,
but
secondly,
that
we
are
getting
those
reports
from
financial
performance
group
so
that
we
can
confirm
that
we've
had
sight
of
them
and
the
the
that,
and
we
are
aware
of
them
the
estate
implications
of
it.
The
least
that
we've
had
an
opportunity
to
guide
those
implications.
So
that's
something
that
we've
started:
tightening
up
actually
over
the
course
of
the
last
six
months.
F
F
We
need
to
be
really
clear
with
members
with
directorates
and
we
and
through
our
website
with
members
of
the
public
around
where
those
responsibilities
sit
and
and
again
how
inquiries
can
be
dealt
with,
and
that's
something
that
certainly
internally
looking
that
we're
going
to
be
doing,
taking
a
presentation
through
to
director
slts
to
senior
leadership
teams
to
to
be
able
to
just
ensure
that
the
there's,
a
really
clear
understanding,
involves
and
responsibilities
the
governance
process
and
and
how
decisions
are
taken
so
actually
bringing
this
paper
together
has
been
really
helpful
in
terms
of
all
and
being
able
to
identify
where
there's
some
gaps
and
how
we
we're
going
to
to
deal
with
those
those
gaps.
F
I
think
the
final
point
I
was
going
to
just
draw
out,
was,
and-
and
this
is
on
page
12
and
13
of
the
paper
which
sets
out
around
the
survey
of
internal
control,
which
was
undertaken
through
our
older
colleagues
in
November
last
year,
and
that
asked
two
questions
around
our
estate.
F
So,
first
of
all,
it
asked
heads
of
service
and
chief
officers
whether
they
knew
where
to
get
advice
and
guidance
from,
and
secondly,
around
the
decision-making
around
our
London
buildings
and
where
there
was
an
understanding
of
how
that
was
undertaken
and
like
I,
say
the
the
results
are
set
out
in
the
two
graphs
that
are
shown
and
I.
F
Think
what
what
that
has
broadly
shown
is
that,
where,
in
directors
where
there
is
a
very
much
a
a
close
engagement
with
the
estate,
so,
for
example,
where
you've
got
communities
with
waste
and
services,
Environmental,
Services
parts
and
Countryside,
and
also
City
development
with
highways
and
flood
risk
management,
museums,
libraries
and
sorry,
museums
and
active,
leads
Etc.
F
There's
a
really
clear
understanding
around
how
the
decisions
are
taken
and
how
advice
and
guidance
can
be
sought
in
some
of
the
service
areas
and
directorates
and
that
probably
have
less
of
a
direct
link
with
with
the
estate
so,
for
example,
in
children's
and
families
where
yes,
there's
children's
centers,
but
actually
there's
a
lot
of
other
parts
of
children's
and
families
where
and
their
engagement
with
the
estate
is
literally
turning
up
and
using
a
desk
I.E
not
make
not
getting
involved
in
the
decision
making
around
buildings.
F
It's
probably
not
quite
as
embedded
as
we
would
like
it
again,
recognizing
that
we're
doing
some
direct
work
with
with
those
directors
and
where
it
is
slightly
weaker
to
ensure
that
we
get
that
message
through
to
their
slc's
Angela,
sits
on
the
children's
delivery
and
board
the
new
delivery
board
and
also
I'm
I'm,
going
to
start
attending
the
M
children's
and
families
Asset
Management
board
Asset
Management
Group,
so
to
to
help
to
to
ensure
that
the
the
clear
understanding
of
the
process
and
that
we
can
support
those
directorates
on
on
that
journey.
F
I
suppose.
So
all
in
all
the
the
paper
sets
out
the
the
the
review
was
undertaken
as
I
say:
I
I
think
we
we've
basically
saying
that
we
are
continually
learning
from
our
experience
and
and
where
we're
where
we
see
that
there's
gaps
or
or
areas
that
we
can
improve.
We
take
an
approach
to
to
to
to
address
those
areas,
and
hopefully
the
reports
are
set
out
and
the
Assurance
framework
that
we've
been
working
to
and
we'll
continue
to
work
soon
moving
forward.
R
Thank
you
for
that.
So
to
members
the
questions
and
comments,
yep.
Q
Yeah,
yes,
yeah
I've
got
a
whole
series
of
questions
about
the
report.
I'm
trying
to
group
them
together.
First
of
all,
I'm
on
page
54.
of
the.
Q
The
report
this
is
had
it
clearly
communicate
and
that's
my
comment.
It's
anything,
but
it's
it's
landscape
and
I
personally
find
that
really
difficult
to
read,
particularly
if
it's
a
complex
document,
you
can't
keep
your
eyes
on
track
and
quite
a
a
problem
for
me,
but
I
I've
got
my
my
lawyer's
ruler
and
ladies
on
the
text
and
and
to
manage
to
make
a
bit
of
sense
of
it,
but
seriously
books
and
newspapers
and
the
shape
they
are.
R
Q
Q
But
coming
back
to
the
the
substance
of
the
the
material
on
page
55,
I've
written
at
the
bottom
roles
for
Joe,
public
and
elected
members.
That
seems
to
be
entirely
an
officers
structure
and
that
may
be
very
good
in
terms
of
efficient,
running
and
so
forth.
Q
But
it
also
results
in
I
think
a
very
conservative,
small
C
approach
to
ideas
that
if
you
want
to
get
big
new
ideas-
and
you
need
to
spread
your
net
a
bit
wider
than
this
and
involving
elected
members
would
be
a
start
involving
the
public
will
be
better
and
we
should
be
looking
actively
for
input
from
outside
and
not
a
closed
system
which
is
in
a
silo,
labeled
asset
management
and
and
audit,
and
doesn't
see
the
light
of
day
that
they're
going
to
get
a
response
on
that.
Q
G
Thanks
chair,
perhaps
I'll
start
and
then
ask
if
anybody
wants
to
add
to
that
Asset
Management
in
its
widest
cases
in
terms
of
estate
strategy,
it
does
consult
with
members
what
we
would
think
quite
expansively,
certainly
with
our
executive
member
councilor
Cooper,
with
a
bi-weekly
briefing,
including
obviously
coming
to
executive
board
for
the
strategies
and
certainly
for
the
capital
receipts
program
on
an
annual
basis,
and
we
would
consult
with
Ward
members
where
there
was
consideration
of
any
divestment
of
assets,
and
we
would
support
the
services
in
Consulting
with
members
when
there
is
any
change
to
service
which
might
result
in
a
property
implication
as
well.
G
In
terms
of
external
support,
we
would
engage
largely
with
the
profession
in
terms
around
surveilling.
The
Estate
Management
strategy
was
supported
by
a
company
called
Turner
in
Townsend,
and
we
layers
very
closely
with
an
organization
called
Aces,
which
is
the
association
for
chief
estate
surveyors,
which
is
a
national
network
of
authorities
who
have
similar
issues
around
their
estate
and
management
and
then
in
terms
of
Consulting,
certainly
with
with
users
and
I'll.
G
Perhaps
let
colleagues
come
on
to
the
public
and
the
future
ways
of
working
program
is
fundamentally
about
supporting
our
services
and
how
we
work
differently.
It
had
an
extensive
engagement
led
by
our
colleagues
in
Human
Resources,
a
number
of
surveys
and
a
number
of
focus
groups,
which
was
sorry
I.
Think
I
did
speak
to
Council
of
Flynn
about
this
at
the
time
about
how
we
want
to
access
and
the
results
are
all
available
shouldn't.
We
want
to
take
a
look
at
that
is
there.
Anything
colleagues
would
like
to
add.
F
Just
in
terms
of
the
engagement
with
communities,
I
think
that
very
much
depends
on
the
the
the
the
response
from
Ward
members
when
we
do
the
Undertake
the
consultation
so
certainly
where
we've
been
asked
that
in
in
some
worlds
to
to
attend
stakeholder
meetings,
we've
done
that
and
yeah.
We
are
very
much
Guided
by
the
the
the
views
of
Ward
members
as
to
how
we
might
engage
with
communities
around
the
city.
C
Yeah
thanks
chair
Mark
did
refer
to
this
thing.
He's
is
very
helpful
and
lengthy
report.
C
Pages
51-53
talk
about
the
government
structures
to
which
he
alluded,
and
they
do
seem
to
be
to
the
Casual
reader
like
myself,
a
little
bit
Byzantine
so
I
suppose
what
I'm
seeking
on
behalf
of
the
committee
is
an
assurance
that
they
are
streamlined,
that
they
are
fit
for
purpose
and
that
they
don't
lead
to
the
duplication
of
Officer
time
and
resources,
precious
that
that
is
on
page
58,
I'll
just
turn
to
it
and
quote
from
it
paragraph
15,
the
second
sentence
down
says:
it's
been
noted
that
input
around
estate
Matters
from
the
health
and
safety
team
could
be
more
effective.
C
Now,
I
just
find
that
a
slightly
surprising
comment
in
an
organization
the
size
of
Leeds
city
council,
because
clearly,
health
and
safety
is
critical
in
terms
of
protecting
the
public
who
use
our
facilities,
the
staff
who
work
in
them
and
avoiding
reputational
damage
of
anything
that
might
emerge
on
the
health
and
safety
front
so
again,
seeking
assurance
that
that
integration
and
that
closer
involvement
of
health
and
safety
team
is
is
going
on
a
pace
on
page
61
under
the
green
heading,
clearly
communicate
on
the
slight
irony
in
this.
C
C
And
it's
frequently
the
case
that
people
will
get
so
frustrated
that
they
come
toward
members.
We,
of
course,
get
out
our
sharp
sticks
and
poke
them
into
a
relative
part
of
office's
anatomy,
and
the
whole
process
then
starts
again.
So
it's
really
the
question
around
the
resources
available
for
the
for
the
management
and
for
those
processes
to
be
undertaken
in
a
timely
way
that
doesn't
frustrate
the
community
key
organizations
or
Ward
members.
F
The
the
hard
and
soft
FM
and
so
hard
FM
is
effectively
the
bricks
and
more
motor
and
and
management
and
investment
into
to
the
the
the
physical
asset
itself.
Soft
FM
is
the
the
the
day-to-day
management
of
the
building
so
clean
and
security
front
of
house
Etc.
So
hopefully
that
and
So
Soft
FM
is
Richard
yep,
perfect.
Okay,
thank
you.
F
So
in
terms
of
the
the
the
governance
and
and
your
query,
counselor
trustwell
around
whether
it's
streamlined
I
I
would
give
assurance
that
it
is
streamlined
that
we're
having
the
the
the
the
a
very
clear
process
within
the
the
governance
for
things
to
be
escalated
through
that
and
we
it
is
streamlined
in
the
way
that
not
everything
goes
to
a
state
corporate
Estate
Management
board.
F
A
lot
of
the
matters
that
are
coming
through
and
the
directory
asset
management
groups
and
I've
either
resolved
in
those
directory
asset
management
groups
or
simply
get
to
a
state
Management
Group
that
don't
necessarily
have
to
go
all
the
way
through.
So
we
do
ensure
that
we,
we
are
only
having
the
conversations
where
those
discussions
need
to
take
place
in
terms
of
health
and
safety.
F
Members
and
colleagues
are
probably
aware
that
the
the
there's
that
the
councils
not
necessarily
have
a
health
and
safety
lead
in
for
for
18
months
or
so
in
the
way
that
we
previously
had
under
and
the
guys
of
Chris,
Singham
and,
and
that
has
meant
that
the
the
engagement-
it's
not
saying
that
there's
been
no
engagement
with
health
and
safety.
Colleagues,
that
engagement
has
been
we
with
more
Germany
staff,
so
certainly
Richard's
team
on
a
day-to-day
basis.
F
They've
still,
we've
still
and
ensured
that
we've
had
that
import
from
health
and
safety.
Colleagues,
as
Liz
Cole
Lisa
Culver,
has
joined
the
organization.
F
It's
now
given
us
that
opportunities
to
ensure
that
we
re-establish
that
input
from
a
very
senior
level
and
as
such
we
are
and
reforming
the
estate
leadership
team,
which
is
effectively
the
people
that
you
can
see
here
to
also
include
Lisa
within
that
and
so
so
that
we
can
have
a
broader
strategic
discussion
about
how
we
can
give
the
assurance
and
ensure
that
that
every
aspects
of
our
work
has
been
done
in
in
the
right
way
and
taking
on
board
the
the
latest
guidance
and
and
and
and
and
and
good
practice
in
terms
of
our
activity,
around
disposals
leases
and
Community
Asset
transfers,
Etc
and
I.
F
Think
it
it's
a
fair
comment
to
say
that
sometimes
that
takes
longer
than
than
people
would
like
and
I
think
there's
various
reasons
for
that.
Council
Trussell.
You
noted
that
the
the
legal
processes
to
go
through
and
in
some
cases
they
are
slowed
either
because
of
resource
or
complexity
within
the
council,
but
equally
through
those
and
wanting
to
move
the
masses
forward
and
purchases.
F
Those
wanting
to
enter
into
leases,
sometimes
they're,
not
necessarily
resourced,
or
not
able
to
get
the
the
the
advice
they
require
in
a
timely
way
to
be
able
to
move
forward.
So
I
think
it's.
It
is
true
to
say
that
some
things
don't
move
at
the
pace.
We
would
like
I
think
in
terms
of
our
internal
resources
and
clearly
there
we
would
like
to
be
able
to
move
things
quicker.
F
In
some
cases,
our
resources
dictate
that
we
have
to
move
in
a
and
and
the
the
speed
that
we
can,
but
we
do
go
through
a
process
of
trying
to
prioritize
to
to
ensure
that
we
bring
in
the
the
income
that
we're
targeted
to
bring
in,
but
also
support,
some
of
those
community
activities
that
that
you've
noted
in
in
the
most
appropriate
way,
linking
across,
of
course
to
other
directors
such
as
communities
and
housing
environment.
Where
this
is
all
the
input
required.
C
O
Thanks
Paul,
the
the
report
provides
assurances
that
the
internal
controls
of
Estate
Management
are
fit
for
purpose,
not
quite
sure.
If
you're
able
to
answer
this
but
I
know
that
a
state
rationalization
has
been
going
on
for
probably
more
than
10
years
or
so
under
the
pandemic,
but
rather
boot
up
the
backside
as
it
were,
to
what
we
were
actually
doing,
billing
Etc.
What
I'm
really
interested
in
is
now.
O
If
ever
the
staff
had
to
come
back
to
a
workplace,
do
we
have
sufficient
adequate
accommodation
in
the
right
place
for
those
staff
to
come
back
to,
and
is
the
I.T
infrastructure
in
the
right
place
and
at
the
right
stage
to
support
staff
who've,
actually
come
back
to
work,
I'm
thinking
about
the
service
to
the
public
here
that
we
actually
provide
and
I'm
well
aware
that
IDs
are
in
the
middle
of
a
fairly
large
rationalization
of
the
of
the
I.T
estate
as
well.
F
Okay,
yeah,
so
so
I
suppose,
currently
out
of
a
state,
broadly
speaking,
is,
is
operating
at
about
50
capacity
different
days.
Obviously,
you
get
to
see
different
levels
of
Staff
in
different
buildings
as
well,
where
you've
got
different
services
and
and
that's
governed
by
their
their
service
delivery,
so
they're
certainly
I
suppose
scope
for
stuff
to
spend
more
time
within
our
estate.
F
But
equally
looking
into
the
future,
you
you,
you
might
imagine
that
we
might
need
to
again
review
how
we
release
some
space
or
let
out
space
to
to
ensure
that
we
have
a
an
estate
of
the
right
size
and
an
efficient
in
terms
of
the
the
it
infrastructure
as
part
of
the
future
ways
of
working
program
that
we
had
as
we
moved
through
the
pandemic.
F
We
that
that
included
colleagues
from
HR,
it
included
colleagues,
film
IDs,
so
that
we
were
able
to
join
up
and
ensure
that
we'd
got
the
right
input
from
and
that
there
was
an
awareness
of
the
overall
strategy
and
that
that
strategy
was
influenced
both
from
the
I.T
infrastructure
side,
but
also
from
the
estate
side.
So
members
will
note
that,
obviously,
there's
been
a
rollouts
of
new
and
video
conferencing
equipment.
F
The
there's
been
upgrades
in
some
buildings
around
the
the
Wi-Fi
connectivity
and
other
it
infrastructure
and
review
of
printing
Etc,
so
so
that
we
have
done
that
in
parallel
and
and
that
there
has
been
Awareness
on
both
sides
of
the
work
that's
been
undertaken.
That's
been
really
critical,
actually
in
terms
of
Richard's
team.
Managing
the
buildings
on
a
day-to-day
basis
as
well
and
then
showing
that,
for
example,
meeting
rooms
and
and
so
on
can
be
be
used
as
effectively
as
possible.
P
O
Though
did
I
quite
answer,
the
question
I
asked,
which
is
if
all
the
staff
were
currently
working
at
home,
came
back
to
work?
Is
there
sufficient
and
adequate
accommodation
available
for
them
to
come
back
to,
and
is
the
I.T
support
actually
in
place
and
I
asked
because
I
went
to
a
meeting
in
over
the
road
a
few
days
ago
and
had
to
evict
a
member
of
the
planning
team
who
was
was
in
an
office
that
we
wanted
to
sort
of
use?
Not
very
satisfactory.
G
And
councilor
Flynn:
if
should
the
council
pivot,
to
bring
everybody
back
to
work
who's
currently
working
elsewhere?
We've
certainly
got
sufficient
capacity
right
now
in
our
estate
to
cope
with
that,
and
the
other
points
I
would
make
is
a
lot
of
our
our
colleagues,
our
our
LCC
staff
are
actually
working
on
Partner
Estates
as
well.
So
we
have
a
number
of
people
who
work
through
the
nhssa
through
the
police,
estate
and
I.
G
And
that's
what
I
wanted
to
say,
and
also
just
to
say
about
the
continuous
process.
I
suspect
we
will
never
find
the
right
footprint
because
our
services
are
continuously
changing.
So
we
have
been
on
this
estate
rationalization
for
over
a
decade
now
and
I
think
we
will
continue
to
to
you,
know
ebb
and
flow,
expand
and
contract
as
our
service
provision
changes.
O
G
G
O
Yeah
I
think
I'll
give
up
at
that
stage.
I'll
come
back
to
it,
though
the
future
you
today
on
page
50,
I,
think
this
is
the
legal
officer
in
in
the
first
box.
It's
the
director
of
City
development
under
officer
roles
and
responsibilities,
three
or
four
lines
down
it.
Talks
about
there
are
specific
delegations
provided
by
full
Council
to
the
director,
etc,
etc,
etc.
O
My
understanding
is
that
this
is
not
the
full
Council
responsibility,
but
to
come
from
the
leader.
Don't
expect
anyone
to
answer
that
this
morning,
but
I
just
I'd
welcome
clarification
on
that
at
some
future
stage.
Thank
you.
R
B
Thank
you
chair
first
thing
I'd
like
to
do
is
say:
Well
done,
which
doesn't
come
out
of
my
mouth
very
often
these
days,
but
the
decarbonization
of
public
buildings.
The
work
that's
gone
on
there
I
think
you
know
you've
you're
in
a
cracking
job.
So
the
question
my
first
question
is:
how
much
are
we
reliant
on
one-off
government
grants
to
do
this
kind
of
work
and
how
much
are
we
taking
out
of
our
our
own
internal
budget?
B
So
that
would
be
number
one
number
two
is
around
leases.
I.
Think
I
think
I've
got
mark
on
speed,
dial
to
be
honest,
but
it's
we
offer
leases,
we
negotiate
and
you're
right.
They
do
take
far
too
long
to
do,
but
you
know
due
diligence.
You
have
to
do
this
thing
because
you
want
to
make
sure
if
an
organization
takes
on
a
building,
they
do
actually
have
the
the
wherewithal
to
maintain
it
going
forward
and
the
responsibility
won't
revolve
back
on
the
council
in
in
10
15
years
time.
B
B
We
often
offer
10
on
15
years
leases,
but
a
lot
of
the
organizations
who
are
going
for
funding
need
a
25-year
lease
to
be
able
to
access
that
money
to
to
get
money
into
the
city,
to
maintain
buildings
and
and
improve
the
ones
that
they're
in
already
so
I'm
asking
there
that
we
actually
take
a
closer
look
and
perhaps,
instead
of
being
very
dogmatic,
look
on
a
case-by-case
basis
around
the
the
history
to
make
sure
that
we're
making
the
right
decision
and
not
just
the
one,
that's
convenient,
because
that's
the
way
we've
always
done
it
in
the
past
and
I
usually
profess.
B
Some
of
my
questions
by
saying
I'm
new
to
this,
so
I
don't
actually
know
this
panel,
so
I
might
be
asking
the
wrong
people.
But
again
it's
it's
one.
For
Polly,
you
started
by
saying
how
your
department
weren't
responsible
for
highways,
which
is
which
is
fair
enough,
but
your
department
is
responsible
and
and
I
represent
an
inner
city
Ward.
Where
we're
very
concerned
around
the
environment.
B
We
have
a
lot
of
pollution
and
so
on
with
cars
Etc,
but
it
seems
impossible
to
actually
develop
a
system
where
we
can
easily
put
in
Street
trees
and
I.
Wonder:
would
that
fall
to
highways
or
would
that
fall
to
you
and
how
would
we,
as
elected
members
on
behalf
of
our
residents,
promote
and
get
Street
trees
in
in
inner
city
areas
and
not
just
the
City
Center?
Thank
you.
R
S
So
the
decarbonization
of
heat
is
still
more
challenging
for
us
as
an
organization.
In
terms
of
putting
funding
into
that,
however,
there
are
still
lots
of
other
things.
We
can
do
on
an
investor
safe
basis
that
we
are
looking
to
do
so,
for
example,
LED
lighting,
better
building
management
systems,
better
controls
and
when
we
do
replacement
of
equipment,
so
things
like
air
handling
units
looking
at
the
efficiency
of
those.
S
So
starting
to
reduce,
make
it
all
of
our
sort
of
you
know:
pool
equipment,
more
energy
efficient,
for
example,
things
like
solar,
you
can
do
on
investors
say
so.
There's
lots
that
we
can
do
on
an
investor.
Save
I.
Think
decarbonization
of
heat
is
still
more
challenging,
but
that
is
the
whole
purpose
that
the
government
grant
still
exists.
So
I
think
we're
still
working
through
that
learning
and
looking
at
how
we
start
to
to
kind
of
embed
that
more
in
terms
of
the
Street
trees,
one,
it
is
still
a
challenge.
S
I
think
it's
probably
something
I'd
like
to
come
back
on.
So
obviously
from
the
first
of
April.
I
pick
up
responsibility
for
what
is
currently
parks
and
Countryside
is
something
we've
started
talking
about
we're
working
with
an
organization
called
Street
trees
for
streets,
even
and
looking
at
how
we
can
make
that
work
where
we
can
get
community
involvement
to
help
support
some
of
that
funding.
But
I
say
we
haven't
quite
got
there
yet.
So
is
that
something
that
I
can
come
back
to
kind
of
post?
S
F
Just
to
answer
the
question
about
leases,
so
we
are
quite
flexible
and
and
open
to
having
conversations
about
what
what
the
terms
of
the
lease
might
be
and
and
I
think
part
of
that
is
also
understanding
those
those
issues
that
you
outline
Council,
Dallas
and
in
terms
of
and
Any
Grant
formed
in
requirements
and
and
the
Ambitions
and
and
so
on
of
organizations.
F
This
is
quite
right
to
say:
we've
got
to
ensure
that
we,
we
are
protecting
the
organization
by
not
giving
not
not
offloading
a
liability
that
they're,
not
understanding
of
and
that
they
are
effectively
set
up
and
resourced,
and
and
so
on,
to
be
able
to
manage
that
into
that
that
that
property
in
the
long
term,
but
yeah
I
mean
if,
if
they're
our
grant,
funding
requirements
that
dictate
that
it's
got
to
be
a
25
year
or
even
longer
term
lease.
F
Then
there's
plenty
of
examples
around
the
city
where
we
have
done
that
and
to
allow
the
broader
Ambitions
to
be
realized.
B
S
So
this
year
we're
going
to
undertake
a
program
of
condition,
surveys
specifically
linked
to
the
Heritage
assets
and
part
of
that
is
I.
Think
sometimes
we
will
have
to
look
outwardly
for
funding
around
things
like
Lottery
funding
and
things
like
that
to
support
it.
But
we
really
need
to
understand
the
size
and
scale
of
the
problem.
First
I
think
almost
before
we
get
to
that.
So
we
do.
S
You
know,
for
example,
this
year
we're
looking
at
a
window
replacement
scheme
at
loviton
that
will
be
sympathetic
to
the
building,
so
we
do
invest
some
of
our
maintenance
program
within
that
within
those
assets.
But
I
think
if
we
get
points
where
there
are
really
large
Financial
requirements-
and
we
also
will
look
at
outwardly
rather
than
just
rely
on
our
own
funding
but
I
think
we
need
to
understand
the
problem
fully
before
we
can
reach
a
conclusion
on
that.
N
Three
comments:
two
questions.
Firstly,
I
couldn't
agree
more
with
the
point
about
it
goes
from
on
my
names
now
from
a
landscape
to
the
other
way
around.
Why
those
more
than
anywhere
else
supplements
to
that?
Why
do
you
have
a
different
numbering
system
to
operate?
Why
you're
not
we're
on
page
nine
you're
on
and.
N
I
couldn't
agree
more
with
the
point
about
the
lazy
day
with
Estate
Management
I've
personally
experienced
that
and
it's
not
the
most
Fleet
footage.
Department
two
questions:
does
somebody
somewhere
have
a
list
of
all
the
assets
that
the
city
council
owns
and
I
mean
I?
Don't
want
to
see
it,
but
there's
one
list
right
and
the
other
question
is
none
of
this
includes
schools,
which
must
be
the
value
of
those
that
statements,
but
at
least
because
all
the
rest
of
them
does
all
this
work.
F
Okay,
the
first,
the
first
question
is
quite
an
easy
one.
Yes,
we
do
have
an
asset
register
which
records
all
of
the
assets
that
we
have
or
all
of
the
buildings
that
we
have
now
when
it
comes
to
individual
pieces
of
land,
they
are
recorded
slightly
differently.
We
obviously
have
register
that
we
went
through
a
voluntary
registration
process
with
land
registry
a
number
of
years
ago,
and
and
so
we
we
do
know
what
we
own
in
terms
of
that
asset
register.
F
That
does
also
include
schools
as
well,
and
certainly
while
this
paper
does
not
focus
on
on
the
school
Estates,
and
there
are
others
that
that
governance
process
is
managed
through
the
children's
and
families
directorates,
and
there
is
certainly
input
from
colleagues
in
asset
management
and
regeneration
about
the
plan
maintenance
program
on
those
properties
and
as
well
as
investment
in
new
and
poly
poly
can
probably
come
in
before
this
team
have
all
I've
been
involved
in
some
of
the
decarbonization
works
in
those
schools
as
well.
S
Yeah,
so
it's
just
going
sorry,
it's
just
going
to
add
the
kind
of
got
two
hats
on
here.
So
one
is
the
planned
maintenance,
which
is
it
within
the
remix
that
was
set
out.
The
other
part
is
the
more
General
Net
Zero
role.
When
we
look
for
funding,
we
don't
limit
it
to
our
own
estate,
so
some
of
the
funding
we
brought
in
we
have
targeted
at
our
school
estate,
so
we
will
work
within
their
governance
structures
and
things
to
deliver
things
like
the
decarbonization
program.
We
certainly
don't
limit
it
to
one
six.
N
F
Yes,
I
mean
I
think
this
comes
back
to
the
comment
I
made
around
our
information
governance
systems
and
for
the
estate.
So,
yes,
we
do
have
an
asset
list
of
all
buildings
that
the
the
way
in
which
that
might
be
broken
down
you
know
is,
is
up
for
debates
and
that's
something
that
we
will
need
to
review
as
we
start
to
implement
a
new
system.
But
yes,
we
do
we,
we
have
a
list
of
all
buildings
as
part
of
the
asset
register.
You.
R
No,
so
moving
on
to
the
recommendation,
members
are
requested
to
a
consider
and
note
the
positive
Assurance
set
out
in
the
statement
of
internal
control
Lane
to
Estate
Management
attached
appendix
a
to
this
report.
I
will
take
the
silences
acceptance
for
that
recommendation.
There
we
go.
Thank
you
very
much
so
moving
on
to
the
next
item
on
our
agenda
can
I
find
it
there.
We
go
the
grandfather
annual
report,
an
IT
audit
report,
2021-2022.
L
Thank
you
chair,
there's
two
Grant
Thornton
reports
for
members
to
consider
today.
The
first
one
relates
to
the
the
reports
on
the
odd
Grand
funds
and
zordic
findings.
With
regard
to
the
council's
value
for
money
Arrangements,
the
report
doesn't
identify
any
statutory
or
key
recommendations,
but
it
does
make
a
number
of
recommendations
for
improvement
and,
secondly,
the
there's
Grant
Thornton's
I.T
audit
report,
which
covers
the
controller
environment
for
the
council's
Main
Financial
systems.
J
Thank
you
very
much
Richard,
so
I
will
take
the
first
report
chair
on
on
the
vfm
arrangements
and
then
I'll
hand
over
to
my
colleague,
Chris
who's
from
RIT
Specialist
Team
for
the
for
the
second
report,
I'll
try
and
keep
my
my
comments
relatively
brief.
This
is
the
2122
vfm
report.
It
builds
on
the
report
that
we
did
for
2021,
which
came
to
this
committee
back
in
October,
so
it's
only
sort
of
six
months
ago.
J
So
we've
tried
to
focus
this
really
in
terms
of
any
key
developments
over
the
last
six
months
and
I.
Think
both
this
report
and
the
report
that
Chris
will
do
in
a
moment
it's
all
around
trying
to
bring
forward
and
get
back
onto
a
a
normal
timetable
in
terms
of
the
the
accounts
and
vfm
and
and
overall
audit
work
at
the
council,
and
these
two
reports
come
in
today
certainly
help
with
that.
J
At
page
69
on
the
exec
summary
chair,
as
Richard
said,
there's
no
significant
weaknesses
and
therefore
no
resulting
statutory
or
key
recommendations
arising,
and
that's
that's
a
good
outcome
for
the
council
and
for
for
an
organization
of
of
this
size
to
not
highlight
any
particular
issues
in
those
areas
is
is
a
good
outcome.
J
As
Richard
said
there
are,
you
know
small
number
of
of
improvement
recommendations
so
they're
the
the
sort
of
lower
level
recommendations
to
effectively
enhance
and
improve
existing
controls
and
processes
that
have
been
raised
and
and
discussed
with
with
relevant
officers
and
their
responses
are
included
within
the
the
detailed
section
of
the
report.
J
J
Clearly,
the
council,
along
with
a
number
of
other
local
authorities
within
the
sector,
does
remain
under
you
know
significant
Financial
pressures
and
and
challenges
and
I
think
a
lot
of
the
detailed
recommendations
that
we
made
back
in
September
October
of
last
year.
You'll
know
it
later
on
in
the
report
and
we've
noted
an
update
on
them,
but
we
believe
that
the
the
effective
comments
that
we
made
last
six
months
ago,
they're
still
relevant,
there's
still
things
that
officers
and
members
should
be
aware
of
in
terms
of
the
pros.
J
As
part
of
our
2223
audit
work
on
governance,
we've
highlighted
some
issues:
I
guess
that
we've
reported
on
a
number
of
occasions
to
this
committee
around
the
the
accounts
process
specifically
and
we're
currently
working
through
that
with
with
the
finance
team
as
part
of
our
2122
accounts
audit
process,
and
we
hope
to
bring
a
an
Isa
260
report
on
that
piece
of
work
to
the
next
meeting
of
this
Committee
in.
J
In
June,
we
did
raise
a
an
improvement
recommendation
around
the
need
to
review
and
and
potentially
update
certain
key
key
documents,
including
the
the
code
of
conduct
and
then
the
final
area,
improving
economy,
efficiency
and
Effectiveness
so
effectively
the
sort
of
Performance
Management
Arrangements
of
the
council
how's
the
council
doing
in
terms
of
delivering
its
its
its
key
services
and
how
is
it
performing
against
its
its
key
performance
indicators?
J
We've
looked
through
that
and
again
no
no
significant
issues
arising
there.
A
couple
of
improvement
recommendations
have
been
raised
so
from
my
point
of
view,
I.
Think,
overall,
you
know
it's
it's
it's
a
broadly
positive
report
for
the
council,
no
significant
issues
arising,
but,
notwithstanding
that
you
know,
we
still
highlight
I,
guess
some
of
the
the
financial
challenges
which
do
remain
live
here
at
Leeds
and
indeed
across
the
sector.
So
I'll
pause
at
that
point
share,
but
obviously
happy
to
take
any
questions
you
or
other
members
may
have.
Thank
you.
O
Thank
you,
I
I
know
in
the
report.
I
can't
see
you
actually
so
apologies
you.
You
have
put
a
list
of
further
actions
which
comments
on
the
on
the
actions
the
council
is
actually
taking.
Are
you
fully
satisfied
that
recommendations
you've
made
and
the
action
that's
been
taken
by
the
council
are
satisfactory
to
the
best
of
your
knowledge.
J
Yes,
overall
I
think
you're,
referring
to
Section
8
Council
Fund
in
terms
of
pages
90,
91
and
90
to
93.,
so
I.
Think
in
the
main
we
are
satisfied,
I
mean
clearly,
you
know
some
of
those
recommendations,
particularly
the
first
three
around
the
sort
of
financial
position:
reserves
MRP
they're,
going
to
be
ongoing
things
that
we
keep
monitoring
as
part
of
our
our
audit
work
going
forward.
J
But
we've
noted
the
you
know
the
responses
to
that.
The
council's
made
in
relation
to
those
recommendations,
I
think
on
a
couple
of
them
in
terms
of
sort
of
Workforce
and
some
of
the
benchmarking
stuff.
We've
we've
highlighted
that
we
think
there's
there
would
still
be
beneficial
for
the
council,
but
at
present
council's
not
taking
those
forward.
J
I
think
you
know
overall
we're
we're
comfortable
with
that
on
a
councilor
Flynn
on
the
basis
that
these
are
Improvement
level
recommendations
where
they
are
in
the
main
two
enhance
existing
arrangements.
Had
they
been,
you
know,
key
level,
recommendations
or
statutory
recommendations
that
actions
hadn't
formally
been
taken,
and
that
would
be
a
different
matter,
Council
thing,
but
because
there
aren't
any
of
those
higher
level
higher
risk
areas.
In
the
report
you
know,
there's
there's
no
sort
of
further
issues
or
actions
from
from
our
point
of
view
on
those.
C
Yes,
thanks
Chet,
hopefully
very
easy
question
to
start
with
on
page
80.
when
I
get
to
it.
There's
reference
on
page
80
to
scrutiny.
Committee
arrangements
are
in
place
through
11
scrutiny
bars
which
hold
executive
boards
members.
To
account
now
sorry
I'm
aware,
we've
only
got
five
scooty
books
so
I.
C
Just
wonder
whether
there
are
any
other
committees
that
fall
within
what
might
be
seen
as
Grant
Thornton
as
scrutiny
boards
and
coming
back
to
my
other
points
on
page
85,
there
is
reference
to
business
rate,
collection
and
I
know
that
the
Grant
Thornton
report
is
kind
of
it's
looking
like
historically
but
I.
C
Just
wonder
if
the
office
has
good
update
is
on
how
much
progress
we
are
making
in
terms
of
getting
back
to
pre-pandemic
levels
of
business
collection,
which
is
absolutely
crucial
to
the
council's
finances
on
page
87
and
again,
I
just
refreshed
my
memory.
By
turning
to
that,
there
is
the
the
reference
to
to
benchmarking
and
I
just
wanted
to
kind
of
explore
this
in
a
bit
more
detail,
so
I
understand
what
we
benchmarking
and
what
we're
comparing
with.
J
Thanks
very
much
Council
Trussville,
so
I
think
I
mean
Richard,
I'm.
Sure
we'll
comment
on
all
four
of
those
points.
I
think
I'll
take
the
third
and
the
fourth
point:
if,
if
I
may,
I
think
the
the
first
two
are
probably
ones
for
for
Richard
to
comment
on
initially,
but
in
terms
of
the
comparison
benchmarking
report
on
page
87,
so
that
that
report
is
is
purely
the
I
guess.
J
The
figures
that
have
been
supplied
centrally
by
the
core
cities
in
this
case,
where
we're
comparing
leads
against
the
other,
the
other
core
cities.
So
in
terms
of
the
nuances
around
certain
decisions
being
taken
to
invest
in
certain
areas
and
all
that
that
won't
necessarily
be
part
of
this
but
I,
guess
it's
not
trying
to
do
that.
Counselor
trustworld
one
of
the
one
of
the
questions,
external
audit
yet
and
I'm
sure
internal
audit
colleges
will
agrees
from
from
members
in
local
government
or
non-execs
in
the
NHS.
Is
how
do
we
compare?
J
How
do
we
compare
with
X,
Y
and
Z,
so
I
suppose
what
we're
trying
to
do
in
in
with
with
that
piece
of
work
there
is
is
sure
where
you
are
against
the
other
core
cities.
I
think
there's
other
references
in
in
terms
of
your
reserves
position
your
borrowing
position,
and
there
may
well
be
valid
reasons
why
Leeds
is
in
a
particular
place
in
terms
of
it
being
very
high
or
very
low,
but
I.
J
Suppose
it's
a
can
opener
if
you
like,
Council
trust
more
for
I,
guess
the
likes
of
yourselves
and
other
members
to
say
you
know.
Why
are
we
near
the
top
on
this
one
or
why
are
we
near
the
bottom
on
that
one
and
for
officers
to
I
guess
justify
you
know
where
Leeds
sits
in
that
particular
in
in
any
particular
table?
So
so
it
is
just
purely
a
a
an
analysis
against
the
the
total
spend
of
of
leads
compared
to
the
other,
the
other
car
cities
on
page
91,
one
Council
trust.
J
Well,
yes,
I
mean
it
is
fair,
fair
comment
that
we
we've
we've
raised
that
that
recommendation
in
the
in
in
the
previous
report.
Six
months
ago-
and
it
is
a
fair
point
to
say
that
that
that
is
not
something-
that's
done
really
across
the
sector
in
terms
of
drawing
out
that
statutory
versus
non-statutry
Services,
but
that
I
need
to
say
that
you
know
if
someone
did
did
go
down
the
route
of
doing
it
may
well
be
well
be
beneficial.
J
What
we've
tried
to
say
in
the
right
hand,
column
is
sort
of
acknowledge
that
you
know
it
it's
it's
not
it's
not
widely
widely
done
in
in
the
sector,
but
another
Twist
on
it
could
be,
and
coming
back
to
one
of
your
earlier
points,
Council
trustful
is
where
you,
as
members
have
made
a
particular
decision
to
to
invest
in
a
particular
service
or
area.
What's
the
implications
of
that
in
terms
of
the
overall
savings
plan
for
the
authority.
J
So
if
we
invest
in
in
such
in
such
a
service
of
x
million
pounds,
what
does
that
do
to
the
savings
plan?
And
what
other
things
do
we
potentially
need
to
move
out
of
or
or
Reef
phase
or
or
come
up
with
a
different
savings
plan
so
that
we're
slightly
tried
to
to
tweak
that
one
on
on
page
91
but
I'm?
Sure
Richard
May
may
have
a
comment
on
that.
Thank
you.
L
Thanks
Gareth,
just
picking
up
each
of
the
points
in
turn,
Council
trustful
the
first
one
just
in
terms
of
the
number
of
scrutiny
boards
just
looking
on
the
council's
website.
There
is
11
there,
but
some
of
those
sort
of
consultative
scrutiny
as
well,
so
there
is
11
in
total,
but
also
includes
things
like
tenants
scrutiny,
but
I
can
see
where
the
11
has
come
from
from
the
report
in
terms
of
business
rates.
L
We
do
report
this
on
a
monthly
basis
in
terms
of
the
council's
Financial
Health
Report
that
gets
received
at
executive
board.
I
haven't
got
the
report
in
front
of
me,
but
from
from
memory.
I
do
know
in
terms
of
performance,
for
22
23
is
in
terms
of
collection.
To
date
is
better
than
we
were
in
21
22,
but
I
would
accept.
L
It
is
slightly
behind
where
we
were
in
20,
sorry
in
in
2021,
which
were
the
last
sort
of
normal
year
that
we
we
can
sort
of
talk
about,
but
collection
rates
are
improving.
We
do
take
account
of
where
we
think
they're
going
to
be
in
terms
of
collection,
so
normally
over
the
fullness
of
time.
We
expect
to
recover
99
of
our
our
business
rates,
but
I
do
know
in
22,
23
we've
budgeted
at
a
slightly
lower
level
than
than
that
in
terms
of
the
the
benchmarking
I.
L
Think
that
the
comment
really
just
back
to
Grant
Thornton
was
just
really
just
to
reflect
that
we
do
actively
Benchmark
in
the
services
that
provide
and
I
think
in
terms
of
adult
social
care.
L
You
know
bondage
balance
and,
secondly,
that
performance
compares
favorably
with
many
other
local
authorization
who
struggle
to
deliver
a
balanced
budget
position
in
terms
of
adult
social
care
and
then,
finally,
just
in
terms
of
the
statutory
non-statitary
split
again,
we've
made
representators
back
just
around
the
Practical
side
of
of
doing
that,
I
don't
know
if
this
is
true
or
not,
but
I've
been
told
by
another
section,
151
officer,
there's
over
1600
statutory
responsibilities
for
a
local
Authority,
so
to
try
and
break
the
budget
down
into
that
makes
it
really
difficult
and
the
other
one
is
just
where
statutory
starts
and
an
end.
L
So,
for
instance,
responsibility
to
deliver
a
library
service
is
one
Library
sufficient
or
several
libraries.
Equally
there's
a
statutory
responsibility
around
say
homelessness,
but
the
prevention
work
we
do
in
respect
of
that,
isn't
necessarily
statutory.
So
it's
it's
really
difficult.
I
mean
what's
the
benefit
of
what
grandson
say
it
does
make
us
consider
actually,
should
we
be
doing
that
or
what
the
benefits
would
be
and
if
you
choose
not
to
then
at
least
we're
satisfied.
Why
we're
doing
that?
C
Yeah
thanks
chair,
I'm
glad
that
I've
teased
out
those
two
responses
from
Richard,
because
I
think
they're
very
helpful.
We
as
a
committee
have
always
said
that
we
want
to
see
things
benchmarked,
so
we
can
now.
We
have
comparisons
in
terms
of
the
benchmarking
table.
That's
on
page
87,
I'm,
not
sure
how
helpful
it
is.
I
mean,
for
example,
we've
got
total
Public
Health
right
down
near
the
bottom
of
the
table,
where
we're
very
low.
C
Now,
if
I
was
a
casual
reader
of
this
I'd
think
well,
absolutely
horrible,
at
least
city
council
very
low
by
way
of
comparison
in
terms
of
Public
Health
expenditure,
I
suspect.
The
explanation
for
this
is
that
when
the
public
health
function
transferred
across
to
local
authorities,
it
came
with
the
central
government
grant
and
that
Grant
is
still
way
way
below
what
even
the
government
says.
It
should
be.
So
the
comparison
is
an
unfavorable
one,
but
it
you
know
it's
not
us
gov.
You
know
the
responsibility
rests
elsewhere.
I
mean
I'll,
be
open
to
correction.
J
J
The
the
work
itself
is
is
is
not
is
not
a
year
old
I
think
it
comes
back
to
the
challenges
within
the
public
sector
arena
in
terms
of
the
timeliness
of
accounts
and
vfm
work,
which
I
think
we
shared
a
report
with
the
council
a
couple
of
weeks
ago,
which
I
believe
has
been
circulated
to
members
or
certainly
should
have
been
that
highlights
some
of
the
reasons
why
there
is
a
a
challenge
and
a
backlog
in
terms
of
the
external
audit
sign
off
across
the
sector.
J
J
So
at
the
previous
meeting
we
obviously
concluded
the
2021
work,
we're
aiming
to
report
our
ISO
260
on
2122
accounts
to
the
July
committee
and
we've
set
a
target
of
the
2223
accounts
being
reported
to
the
February
24
committee
of
of
of
of
of
of
the
of
the
audit
committee.
J
So
what
that
will
hopefully
do
if
we
can
deliver
to
that
timetable,
is
effectively
within
a
12-month
period,
try
to
conclude
three
years
worth
of
of
of
annual
Accounts
at
Leeds,
which
would
then
get
the
authority
back
onto
a
normal
audit
timetable
for
the
first
year
of
the
new
psaa
contract.
J
I
suppose
the
other
thing
you've
got
to
remember
as
well
is
that
one
of
the
issues
that
held
up
last
year's
accounts
was
the
national
issue
of
accounting
for
infrastructure
assets
which
affected
all
organizations,
and
that
was
a
factor
in
in
well.
One
of
the
factors
in
in
the
delay
of
of
Leeds
accounts
audit
last
year.
So
I
take
you
point
that
this
is
about
22
21,
22,
Financial
year,
I,
suppose
as
a
sector
and
as
a
firm.
J
You
know
Grant
Thornton
and
the
other
audit
firms
with
working
within
that
sector
do
recognize
that
and
all
firms
are
trying
to
get
back
onto
a
a
normal
audit
cycle,
but
it
is
a
challenging
position
for
for
all
organizations
working
in
this
particular
sector
at
present.
For
all
the
issues
in
that
recent
report
that
we
circulated
a
couple
of
weeks
ago,
thanks
chair.
D
J
K
Thank
you
on
page
75,
again,
it's
back
to
benchmarking
and
I.
Don't
recognize
that
benchmarking
does
open.
That
kind
of
you
know
for
questions
and
and
often
what's
presented
to
you,
it's
the
detail
behind
it
that
becomes
more
interesting.
I
do
get
that.
K
But
you
might
you
make
a
comment
in
your
second
to
the
last
paragraph
on
page
75
about
the
general
fund
reserves
and
earmatch
reserves
being
lower
or
the
lowest
of
all
car
cities,
as
at
the
31st
of
March
22,
and
then
in
the
next
paragraph
you
you
recognize
that
there's
some
plans
to
increase
that
level
going
forward
what
I
can't
see
easily
and
and
and
would
be
helped
in.
K
Incredibly,
if
you
could
just
say
well,
you
know
what
does
that
second
paragraph
there
say
to
the
first
yeah
so
does
the
the
plan
to
increase
the
general
Reserve
over
the
periods
March
2028?
Does
that
then
bring
us
bring
leads
that
more
in
line
with
what
the
car
Cities
average
might
be?
I
accept
that
the
requirement
for
a
level
of
reserves
is
specific
to
a
council
I
get
that,
but
just
as
a
generic.
How
does
that
compare.
J
J
I
think
you
know
we're.
Certainly
supportive
of
the
the
mtfs
position
that
recognizes
that
leads.
His
level
of
reserves
are
low
compared
to
to
comparator
or
local
authorities,
and
therefore
you
know
the
council
themselves
have
recognized
that
these
need
to
need
to
increase,
and-
and
certainly
you
know
that,
from
our
point
of
view,
just
increase
the
sustainability
and
resilience
of
of
leads.
J
You
know
if,
if
it
mirrors
where
the
the
mtfs
is
is
projected
leads
to
be
it's
difficult
to
say
where,
where
leads
would
then
fit
in
three
years
time
on
that
on
that
League
table,
because
obviously
the
other
authorities
may
be
taking
a
similar
view,
but
if,
if
it
improves
the
resilience
of
leads
position,
for
you
know
significant
shocks
to
the
financial
position,
then
that
is
a
positive
from
from
our
perspective,.
R
M
Yeah
good
morning,
so
we
completed
a
it
audit
against
three
main
systems.
There's
an
sap
system,
the
FMS
system,
which
is
both
financials
and
Academy,
which
is
for
the
benefits.
M
We
performed
what
we
call
a
roll
forward
audit,
which
we
asked
the
question
was
any:
were
there
any
differences
between
last
year's
audit
and
this
year's
audit?
If
there
were
no
changes,
we
took
the
view
that,
as
there
were
no
changes,
we
still
stayed
in
the
same
control,
environment.
M
M
M
This
is
where
privileged
access
comes
into
it.
What
we're
looking
here
for
is
people
who
have
administrative
access
that
also
have
a
crossover
with
financial
responsibilities.
M
That
is
a
big
red
flag
and
we
we
highlight
this
as
regards
numbers.
There
were
14
users
that
could
assign
access-
and
this
was
I
liked
to
in
the
report.
M
Or
sap,
which
is
the
payroll
we
found,
there
were
24
users
that
had
privileged
access.
I,
don't
want
to
go
into
the
detail
unless
you
want
me
to
but
I'll
try,
I'll,
try
and
present
this
in
English,
as
opposed
to
it.
M
M
Unlike
other
systems,
there
are
multiple
ways
of
going
and
have
administrative
access.
It's
not
like
you
can
go
in
and
have
an
admin
access
or
a
manager
access.
There
are
about
30,
odd,
different
ways,
and
we
have
to
take
it
and
look
at
the
whole
thing
we
went
through,
did
some
additional
procedures
and
found
there
weren't
changes
to
tables.
M
M
We
came
back
with
the
all
right.
The
access
has
been
removed
that
the
inappropriate
access
has
been
removed
and
it
this
the
access
was
provided
only
to
the
administrators.
So
this
is
the
IT
people
as
opposed
to
finance
to
people.
M
There
were
no
significant
changes
to
tables
in
that
period.
That
was
the
additional
work
we
did
and
then
we
come
on
to
0.3
in
the
report,
which
is
going
to
be
page
108.
M
There
were
on
these
privileged
user
access
accounts,
these
ones
that
apply
to
go
into
the
production
environment
and
go
into
your
database.
We
found
there
was
just
some
weaknesses
there
on
the
way
the
accounts
are
operated.
M
Some
of
this
could
be
down
to
not
reviewing
the
accounts,
so
this
could
be
down
to
you
know
just
reviewing
who
goes
in
and
out
of
those
accounts.
These
are,
these
are
the
administration
accounts
and
then
again,
these
these
were
just
general.
Some
observations
on
on
the
three
systems,
and
then
the
fourth
Point
made
this
year
was
there
was
some
cyber
security
controls,
so
we
do
a
review
upon
cyber
security
and
there
was
some
they
weren't
major.
M
M
Looking
at
the
issues
we
raised
in
the
previous
year,
there
were
the
first
point
on
their
user
accounts
identified
with
an
appropriate
access
in
sap.
Again
it
comes
back
down
to
we.
We
did
a
complete
review
of
sap
user
access.
Some
of
these
hadn't
been
remediated.
M
There
was
a
inadequate
control
of
generic
accounts
in
the
FMS
database.
Again,
this
is
a
financial
system
and
the
benefit
systems
there
were
accounts
not
being
not
being
monitored.
R
Any
questions
or
comments
bearing
man
was
slightly
running
over
than
we
normally
do
so
try
to
brevitate
preferable,
Council
Flint
school.
O
I'm
a
fully
qualified
Luddite
so
bear
with
me
when
we're
talking
about
it.
Also,
a
great
believer
in
sod's
law
I
noticed
that
on
pages
111
112
113,
it's
section
4
under
the
findings
of
last
year,
which
you've
just
touched
on.
O
O
Are
you
satisfied
that
the
recommendations
you
made
last
year
will
be
fully
complied
with
and
what
you
think
about
the
recommendations
that
you've
made
this
year?
Will
they
be
fully
complied
with?.
M
So
on
the
comments
for
page
111,
there
is
a
management
comment
there.
That's
saying
there
is
some
work
being
done.
Renew
system.
M
The
for
Academy
they're
in
process
purchasing
a
new
audit
logging
system
which
sits
inside
the
system.
We
believe
this
will
allowed
to
log
what
each
user
is
undertaking
so
from
a
going
forward
perspective.
Yes,
that
that
will
that
will
be
adequate
monitoring
is
something
that
is
done.
M
M
Okay,
page
112
also
is
that
is
about
the
academy
system
and
about
the
audit
logging
and
page
113,
it's
about
policies.
So
this
is
this,
and
the
responses
the
officers
and
IDs
will
look
into
potential
benefits
of
establishing
corporate
policies
in
these
areas.
C
Yeah
sorry,
yeah
I,
don't
want
to
ask
any
questions.
I
just
want
to
make
the
point
that
I
think
that
this
committee
needs
to
revisit
this
report,
because
where
it
says
management
comments
as
of
2022
was
that
December
2022
I.E
less
than
three
months
ago,
was
a
much
longer
so
rather
than
kind
of
going
through
it
Point
by
point
at
this
stage,
I
think
that
the
committee
and
future
should
be
part
of
its
work
plan
to
revisit
this
report
with
a
more
updated
response
from
both
management
and
Grant
Thornton.
K
Yeah
again,
this
is
a
very
generic
question
for
the
whole,
really
recognizing
that
cyber
risk
is
pretty
much
top
of
the
tree
for
the
council,
I
guess
it's
a
generic
question
to
Grant
Thornton
and
two
officers.
K
How
satisfied
are
we
that
the
points
that
are
being
made
in
this
report?
Whilst
they
refer
specifically
to
financial
systems
but
I,
guess
user
access
is
a
a
thing
that
will
happen
in
systems
that
aren't
Financial
as
well?
How
satisfied
are
we
that
the
issues
that
are
raised
in
this
report
from
a
financial
perspective
aren't
replicated
into
the
non-financial
areas
of
the
business
whereby
cyber
risk
could
be
as
important
if
not
more
important,.
J
Thanks
chair
thanks,
Linda
I
think
it's
a
really
good
question
so
I
mean
clearly
our
our
focus
in
this
piece
of
work
are
the
sort
of
Three
Financial
systems.
But
you
write
that
that
the
issues
there
may
be
replicating
others,
I
mean
I.
J
I'll,
be
honest,
I,
don't
know
the
answer
to
that
Linda,
but
it's
something
I
guess
we
can
take
away,
obviously
discuss
with
with
internal
audit
colleagues
in
terms
of
whether
they've
identified
any
significant
issues
in
terms
of
access
on
non-financial
systems
and
and
see,
potentially
how
widespread
that
is
elsewhere.
But
it's
it's
it's
it's
a
it's
a
good
point.
I
So
if
I
can
come
in
there,
so
that's
where
the
actual
privilege
user
access
work
comes
in,
so
obviously
we're
working
extensively
with
IDs
colleagues,
we
have
got
a
piece
of
work
underway.
We
are
doing
a
follow-up
and
we
are
also
liaising
with
sad
colleagues
as
well
in
IDs
to
ensure
that
we
will
are
reviewing
all
these
areas
to
make
sure
it's
on
the
audit
plan.
I
So
it
is
a
work
in
progress,
but
coming
back
to
the
actual
tracking
of
the
recommendations
and
the
follow-up
within
this
report
and
I'd
like
to
assure
members
that
we
are
working
with
Finance
colleagues,
obviously
we
track
our
own
recommendations,
but
I'm
already
in
discussions
with
Richard
and
his
team
to
actually
include
these
these
recommendations
in
our
own
tracking.
So
it
can
really
bring
life
to
to
the
recommendation
tracking
and
if
members
would
like,
we
can
actually
include
progress
on
these.
In
the
update
reports
and
in
a
special
section.
J
I
just
said,
I
think
that's
a
really
good
idea
chair,
but
the
other
point
I
wanted
to
come
back
in
on
was
just
to
answer
the
council's
trustworth
point.
It
was
December
22
for
the
management
responses,
so
the
relatively
recent
just
to
clarify
that.
Thank
you.
Q
Very
quickly,
are
you
talking
about,
obviously,
the
the
secret
parts
of
the
administration,
but
I
wanted
to
look
at
the
ordinary
working
practices
they
supplier
is
producing
operations
of
syncing
different
data
sources
to
get
the
access
to
resources
from
far
away
and
changes
in
working
practices
and
enhancements
and
stuff.
My
question
is,
first
of
all:
does
the
syncing
Arrangement
introduce
the
security
holes
because
it
seems
to
be
quite
ambitious
in
what's
being
offered
in
Windows
11,
for
example,
to
get
into
security
holes?
Q
Is
there
a
need
for
additional
trading
courses
for
staff
and
how
the
cost
of
that
being
been
sort
of
factored
in,
because
it
seems
to
me
that
there
is
a
case
to
be
made
that
staff
training
staff
development
is
actually
needed
in
this
situation.
M
So,
regarding
training,
I
think
you
need
to
come
back
to
management
on
that
and
and
so
on.
M
Regarding
security
holes,
we're
looking
to
really
at
the
the
segregation
duties
that
conflict
of
interest
between
people
who
can
have
got
the
privileged
access
versus
people
who
can
do
the
financial
operations,
the
the
other
part
of
that
I
think
I
need
to
defer
over
to
internal
audit
as
regards
the
work
that
they're
doing
on
on.
Who
can
do
what
and
why.
R
Any
of
the
questions
or
comments.
Okay,
moving
on
to
the
recommendation,
then
members
are
asked
to
receive
the
annual
audits
report
and
it
order
report
presented
by
Grant
Foster
and
to
know
the
recommendations
for
improvement
which
have
been
made
in
each
report.
I'll
take
silencer's
acceptance.
There
we
go
moving
on
then
to
I.
Think
the
the
last
main
point
of
our
agenda
today,
which
is
the
corporate
governance
and
Order
committee
work
program,
2023,
2024.,.
R
As
Well's
point
about
the
previous
report,
which
we'll
work
into
there
any
of
the
questions
or
comments
on
the
web
program,
yeah.
O
Back
to
whistleblowing,
I
I
know
that
there's
a
an
item
under
every
every
month's
work
program
on
internal
audit,
but
I'm
not
quite
sure
whether
it
falls
under
that
or
whether
it
falls
under
fraud.
Council
fraud,
Etc
can't.
O
R
Any
other
questions
or
comments,
okay,
so
the
recommendations.
We
note
that
the
the
work
program
for
2023
2024
takes
how
long
to
the
yes,
yes,
so
that's
the
end
of
the
meeting.
The
next
meeting
for
those
that
are
here
will
be
on
the
26th
of
June,
2023
and
I
will
see
you
all
in
the
new
moon.