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From YouTube: Leeds City Council - Infrastructure, Investment & Inclusive Growth Scrutiny Board - 08 December 2022
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A
Meeting
of
the
scrutiny
board,
thank
you
for
braving
the
cold,
weather
and
honoring
us
with
you
presents
today
and
before
we
start,
and
mainly
for
the
benefit
of
anybody
watching
online,
but
also
our
guest.
If
we
could
just
go
around
the
table
and
introduce
ourselves,
I
ought
to
welcome
counselor
die
I
invited
counselor
die
because
of
the
agenda
items
that
we've
got
before
is
councilor.
Dye
was
a
former
much
valued.
A
A
A
A
H
Good
morning
how's
the
Jess
Lennox
Crossgates
and
win
more
award
councilor.
A
I'm
councilor
Paul,
triswell,
chair
of
the
board
and
I
represent
Middleton
and
Belle
Isle,
so
just
quickly
running
through
the
initial
items
of
the
agenda
appeals,
there
are
new
appeals,
exclusion
to
the
public.
There
are
no
items
for
which
this
is
applicable,
late
items.
There
are
no
late
items
but
as
I
explained
at
our
pre-meeting
agenda
item
nine,
which,
where
we
anticipated
discussing
a
report
that
was
due
to
go
to
scrutiny
board
on
connecting
leads
foreign.
A
Language
that
we
don't
understand
so
what
has
happened
anyway,
crack
on
Fall.
Basically,
that
report
is
now
no
longer
going
to
executive
board
and
therefore
is
not
available
for
us
to
have
a
prior
discussion.
It
will
be
coming
back
to
us
in
due
course,
but
when
that
might
be,
we
do
not
know
a
gender
action
for
Declarations
of
interest.
Can
I
ask
any
members
who
want
to
make
a
declaration
of
interest
to
do
so
now.
I
assume
that
as
we're
not
aware
of
any,
you
don't
have
any
to
declare
at
this
stage.
A
Apologies-
and
we
have
apologies,
as
I
said
from
Council,
lay
due
to
a
family
bereavement
and
for
a
gender
item,
a
Adam
parve.
The
author
of
the
report,
that's
before
is
has
also
sent
his
apologist.
So
moving
on
to
the
minutes,
my
usual
fashion,
I
will
go
through
them
Page
by
Page.
Anybody
want
to
raise
any
possible
amendments
or
any
issues
arising
from
those
minutes.
Please
shout
out
so
page
five
Page
Six.
B
Yeah,
thank
you.
Second
Bullet
From,
The
Bottom.
Further
information
on
the
zebra
scheme
will
be
so
collect
to
board
members.
I
believe
that
was
with
regards
to
the
the
breakdown
of
the
funding.
I
beg
your
pardon
if
I've
missed
that,
but
I
don't
believe
it's
it's
been
an
answer
now.
Thank
you.
Thank
you.
A
Okay
Becky,
as
noted
that
and
we'll
Chase
it
up
in
our
normal,
assiduous
fashion,
filming
with
nothing
more
on
page
nine,
all
members
of
the
bird
content
for
me
to
sign
these
as
a
correct
record
in
qcos
right.
Thank
you.
That
brings
us
on
to
agenda
item
seven
and
the
hydrogen
compatible
infrastructure.
Before
we
go
into
this
I,
just
like
the
offices
at
the
top
table
and
our
guest
Mark
to
introduce
themselves,
please.
L
Hi
Polly
I'm,
the
chief
officer
for
sustainable
energy
and
air
quality
at
the
council.
A
Okay,
thank
you.
As
the
report
indicates,
we
discussed
this
matter
briefly
at
a
previous
meeting
and
ask
for
more
information,
and
indeed,
we've
got
it
and
I
think
we've
probably
got
far
more
information
than
we
anticipated,
but
in
a
very
good
way.
So
without
further
Ado,
Mark
I
think
you've
got
a
presentation
for
us.
Becky
is
operating
this
slide.
So
what
could
possibly
go
wrong
there?
We
go
Mark
over
to.
M
You,
okay,
thank
you.
Paul
yeah
I'll
still
give
an
overview
of
where
Northern
gas
networks
and
the
gas
industry
are
with
the
conversion
of
the
networks
to
to
hydrogen.
So
just
as
an
introduction,
I'll
mentioned
my
name
but
I've
been
involved
with
hydrogen
at
Northern
gas
networks
since
2017.
M
Okay,
so
that's
a
timeline
that
we've
been
working
at
with
Northern
gas
as
I
mentioned
2016,
we
did
the
lead
Syndicate
to
the
gate
report,
to
see
if
it
was
feasible
to
convert
the
gas
Network
to
hydrogen,
which
proved
at
the
high
level
it
was,
and
since
that
time
we've
been
working
on
various
different
research
projects.
Looking
at
the
safety
evidence
required.
M
So
in
2018
we
kicked
off
the
h21
project
phase,
one
which
looked
at
the
safety
of
the
Assets
in
the
network.
We
then
moved
on
to
phase
two
where
we
built
various
different
test
sites
down
at
the
HSE
Laboratories
site
down
at
Buxton,
and
we
also
built
a
test
facility
up
in
Cumbria
at
Raf
Spade
Adam,
where
we
built
a
mock,
Network
and
so
phase.
M
Two
was
looking
at
the
asset
side
of
things,
so
the
network
side
of
things
and
see
if
we
could
use
the
same
techniques
we
used
for
maintenance
and
and
Etc
going
forward.
M
Since
then,
we
we
been
engaged
with
Bays
and
we
are
currently
working
on
the
the
next
stage,
which
is
the
Village
trials
which
we're
aiming
for
2025
and
we're
actually
started
working
on
the
town
trial
as
well,
which
is
aimed
to
be
20
30,
but
I'll
give
them
a
bit
more
detail
in
the
next
following
slides.
M
Next,
please
I
thought
I
put
this
one
in
it's
some
homes
that
we've
built
up
at
one
of
our
sites
in
gateshead,
it's
a
pair
of
semis
that
look
and
feel
like
a
normal
set
of
houses.
The
one
difference
is
that
they
run
on
100
hydrogen,
so
we
have
working
with
bays
and
base
partly
funded
the
project
as
well.
We've
got
the
prototypes
of
new
hydrogen
gas
meters,
the
booster
Bosch
and
baxi
hydrogen
boilers.
M
We've
got
a
freestanding
cooker
and
we've
also
got
a
harjin
hob
as
well
as
fires.
M
So
if
you've
got
the
next
one,
please
Becky
and
as
you
can
see,
these
are
the
homes
they
look
and
feel
exactly
the
same
as
the
as
a
home
would
do,
and
the
appliances
operate
exactly
the
same.
We've
been
running
these
for
over
a
year
now,
and
we've
had
over
2
000
visitors
to
these
homes
and
that
that's
open
to
anybody,
but
in
the
industry
and
general
public
you'll
see
there's
a
there's,
a
email
address
there.
M
If
anybody
does
want
to
go
and
see
those
houses,
you
can
book
book
a
visit,
but
most
people
go
away
kind
of
I
want
to
say
deflated,
but
unimpressed,
because
it
is
exactly
the
same.
The
only
slight
difference
you
you'll,
probably
see
with
it
in
terms
of
the
cookers,
instead
of
being
a
blue
flame,
it
burns
an
orange
flame
but
other
than
that
Cook's
the
same
and
the
the
the
lady
looks
after
it
as
baked
and
does
all
sorts
of
of
cooking
in
those
appliances.
M
Okay.
Next,
please
thank
you.
So
I
mentioned
about
the
Village
we
We've
chosen
redcar
for
our
village
trial,
where
we're
looking
at
2
000
domestic
properties.
M
The
reason
we've
chosen
redcar
is
the
proximity
to
both
production
and
the
storage
facilities
in
the
area,
we're
working
quite
closely
with
BP
EDF
and
the
like
for
their
new
green
hydrogen
production
plants
which
we're
going
to
use
as
well
as
repurposing
some
of
the
salt
cabins
in
the
area
for
storage
of
hydrogen
to
to
enable
us
to
have
a
resilient
Supply
during
that
trial,
we're
on
with
it
at
the
moment
we
are
busy
door
knocking
and
talking
to
the
stakeholders
and
consumers,
seeing
what
appliances
they've
got
and
as
well
as
looking
at
our
assets
to
make
sure
that
there's
no
particular
issues
with
those
and
we're
also
on
with
designing
some
above
ground
facilities
as
well.
M
Next,
so
that's
the
area
we're
looking
at
just
for
interest.
So
it's
the
front
end
of
budkai,
if
you're
familiar
with
it
and
it's
a
town,
center,
cotton
and
then
Warren,
B
and
we've
also
got
an
area
slightly
outside
Kirk
letham.
And
that's
so.
We
can
gain
some
more
experience
in
the
more
commercial
type
premises.
So
there's
offices
there
there's
storage
facilities,
there's
step
UPS
Etc
and
you
can
just
see
on
the
graphic
there
where
all
our
different
infrastructure
is
going
to
be.
For
the
above
ground,
hydrogen
storage.
M
M
Just
just
to
finish
off.
We
there's
currently
two
town.
Sorry
there's
currently
two
Village
designs
in
progress,
there's
hours
which
I've
just
discussed,
which
we've
called
redcar
hydrogen
Community,
but
there's
also
one
over
in
Northwest,
run
by
cadent
in
Whitby
and
that's
Whitby,
Ellesmere
Port
not
not
be
naughty
Yorkshire.
M
So
we
find
out
a
middle
of
next
year,
which
one
is
successful
because
bays
are
only
funding
one
project,
then
then
to
go,
live
in
2025.,
so
the
town
as
I
mentioned.
That's
a
town
pilot.
So
that's
based
on
base's
decision
in
2026
to
whether
they're
going
to
use
hydrogen
in
a
domestic
environment.
So
we
had
a
letter
open
letter
from
Bays
two
months
ago,
asking
the
networks
to
work
on
town,
a
pilot,
and
the
aim
of
that
is
between
10
and
20
000.
M
Meter
pods,
which
is
is,
is
the
start
of
a
wider
rollout
and
part
of
the
brief,
is
to
include
up
to
200
000
by
2037
and
that's
not
necessarily
just
in
one
location.
It
could
be
in
in
several
locations,
so
the
yep.
Next,
please,
foreign.
M
Thank
you
so,
in
terms
of
the
Town
we're
still,
let's
look
at
in
terms
of
the
Town
locations,
we're
currently
looking
at
potentially
three
locations,
the
the
first
being
expanding
what
we've
got
in
t-side.
M
The
second
is
potential
in
Humber,
and
the
third
is
looking
at
the
outskirts
of
Leeds
the
east
side
of
the
Leeds
in
terms
of
phasing
of
the
work
and
the
location,
one
of
the
challenges
we've
got
and
what
we
will
do
in
in
the
next
phase
of
work,
which
is
an
outline
design,
is
thank.
M
You
is
looking
at
what
infrastructure
it
will
be
available
by
2030
to
be
able
to
use
those
locations
so
we're
talking
to
the
producers
in
in
homicide,
we're
also
making
inquiries
to
see
who's
looking
at
production
in
the
West
Yorkshire
area,
but
we're
also
talking
with
National
Grid
who
operate
the
high
pressure
infrastructure
across
the
UK
they're
planning.
M
Well,
they
have
got
a
project
going
at
the
moment,
which
is
called
project
Union,
where
they're
looking
at
converting
between
20
and
25
of
their
existing
assets
to
hydrogen.
So
one
of
the
things
we
look
at
is
seeing
when
that
would
be
available
to
bring
hydrogen
to.
You
know
for
us
at
Northern
gas,
our
biggest
urban
areas
as
in
West
Yorkshire.
So
we
we
have
the
challenge
of
of
converting
West
Yorkshire,
so
we're
trying
to
make
sure
that
we
can
get
that
infrastructure
in
place.
M
So
that's
due
online
in
2030
next,
please.
M
We
saw
and
realized
probably
about
a
year
18
months
ago
that
we,
you
know
there
was
a
village.
There
was
a
town,
but
what
we
wanted
to
understand
and
start
working
towards
is
a
wider
roll
out
across
our
region.
So
we've
kicked
off
a
project
with
cadent
who's,
our
neighbors
to
the
South
and
to
the
West
in
terms
of
gas
networks
as
well
as
National
Grid.
M
Looking
at
the
overall
picture
for
the
next
15
or
20
years
to
see
where
the
Productions
going
online,
where
the
storage
is
is
proposed,
what
infrastructure
for
the
the
the
distribution
and
transmission
across
the
the
the
northern
sector
can
would
be
planned
and
mapped
out.
So
next,
please
back
so
we're
currently
in
the
feasibility
study
and
we're
just
moving
into
the
pre-feed.
M
So
we're
we're
putting
a
consultant
in
January
for
looking
at
the
pre-feed,
which
again
will
bring
bring
all
the
knowledge
that
we
got
as
well
as
the
the
research
in
terms
of
what
could
be
repurposed.
What
would
be
new
Etc
and
the
time
scales,
and
then
we
just
move
move
our
way
through.
So
looking
at
D
side,
humberside
Yorkshire
as
phase
two
and
then
through
phase
three
they're,
moving
more
more
Northern,
yeah
Newcastle
and
across
the
Cumbria
and
then
phase
four
is
the
economy
implementation.
M
So
that's
a
kind
of
high
level
overview
of
the
the
hundred
percent
hydrogen.
M
This
I
think
is
one
more
slide,
I
believe,
alongside
the
work
that
I
mentioned,
which
is
looking
at
100,
hydrogen
in
the
domestic
we've
also
been
working.
Looking
at
the
blending,
we
see
blending
as
an
enabler,
and
so
we've
been
working
on
the
project
up
in
gateshead
in
a
place
called
wind
Leighton,
where
we've
completed
a
trial
in
July
running
Electro
gas
system,
but
with
a
20
blend
of
hydrogen.
M
The
advantage
of
the
the
blending
work
is
that
we
can
continue
to
use
existing
domestic
appliances
up
to
20,
so
there's
there's
less
disruption
to
the
the
end
consumer,
but
we're
able
to
One
enable
the
gas
hydrogen
production
facilities
to
come
online
and
then
they
can.
They
can
blend
into
the
system
as
well
as
storage.
But
it's
also
you
know.
People
get
used
to
the
idea
of
hydrogen
in
their
homes,
which,
for
some
people
are
aware.
M
That
was
what
it
was
like
back
in
the
days
when
we
had
Thames
gas
that
was
around
50
hydrogen,
so
we're
going
back
to
kind
of
passionate
towards
that,
but
yeah.
So
thank
you.
So
my
presentation.
A
Okay,
thanks
very
much
Mark.
Do
you
and
welcome
councilor
Hayden,
councilor,
Hayden,
Polly
or
Neil?
Do
you
want
to
add
anything
to
Mark's
presentation
before
I
move
over
to
members,
questions
and
comments.
N
Just
make
a
few
comments,
so
we
have
been
engaged
since
2016
when
the
Leeds
21
report
was
done
so
I
suppose.
Just
to
put
some
of
Mark's
comment,
presentation
and
context,
I
mean
one
of
the
biggest
challenges
facing
the
country
will
be
how
we
decarbonize
heat
so
I
think
it
represents
something
like
about
28
of
carbon
emissions.
N
So
there's
a
big
decision
about
how
you
do
that.
Currently
most
of
the
effort
from
from
government
is
going
into
air
source,
heat
pumps
and
people
are
seeing
the
publicity
about
that.
So
it's
really
where
the
hydrogen
can
play
on
the
domestic
side,
A
Part
in
actually
decarbonizing.
N
It's
probably
not
going
to
be
every
house
in
in
in
the
country,
but
where
it's
maybe
next,
to
facilities
which
produce
hydrogen
and
it's
in
and
it's
economic
to
do
it
will
it
be
part
of
the
blend
and
that
probably
decision
will
probably
be
made
in
the
next
few
years
by
bays
and
what
what
Mark's
team
are
doing
is
kind
of
testing
out
the
kind
of
practicalities
of
that
two
things
also
to
maybe
say
about
I
hope,
there's,
not
a
chemist
in
the
room
because
they'll,
probably
thinking
oh,
you
are,
you
are
a
chemist
so
well
so
well,
just
might
from
a
rudimentary
point
of
view.
N
It's
maybe
worth
just
for
members
benefit
just
explaining.
There
are
two
ways
in
which
the
hydrogen
can
get
produced,
so
one
is
by
taking
natural
gas
and
then
splitting
it.
So
you
you
take
out
the
car
you
take
out
the
carbon
you
you're
left
with
the
hydrogen
and
you
store
the
carbon
through
carbon
storage,
and
that's
where
you
put
it
in
the
caves
and
so
forth
under
underneath
the
North
Sea
is
quite
expensive
method,
but
it's
a
proven
method.
N
It's
do
you
know
it's
already
done
in
in
in
t
side,
and
you
know
that's
the
basis
on
which
things
are
currently
being
produced.
The
other
method,
which
is
perhaps
even
more
expensive
at
the
moment,
is
using
electrolysis
to
just
split
water,
effectively
oxygen,
hydrogen
and
you
just
and
you
just
create
the
hydrogen
out
of
that
and
I
suppose.
A
long-term
vision
for
the
industry
is
seeing
whether
actually
excess
renewable
energy.
N
It's
quite
difficult
to
store
that
so
they're
looking,
obviously
things
like
battery
storage
and
so
forth,
but
another
option
may
be
actually
to
produce
hydrogen
and
actually
then,
and
then
actually
feed
use,
use
that,
as
as
a
means
and
I
think,
probably
as
as
probably
even
seven
or
eight
years
ago,
that
one
was
seen
as
being
a
bit
more
of
a
remote
possibility,
but
with
the
way
that
Renewables
are
gathered,
that
becomes
maybe
a
more
realistic
kind
of
proposition.
N
So
the
last
two
points
I
was
going
to
make
is
we've.
We've
spent
quite
a
lot
of
our
time,
thinking
about
the
domestic
side
and
whether
it
is
possible
to
maybe
see
Lee's
relatively
close
to
Humber
and
teaside
has
made
one
of
the
urban
areas
which
might
receive
hydrogen
domestically.
But
there
are
probably
two
other
things
which
could
possibly
be
applied
to
one
is
that
they're,
a
very
high
usage
industrial
uses?
N
Sometimes,
so
you
actually
need
a
lot
of
power
for
certain
types
of
activity
and
there
may
be
an
opportunity
to
look
at
some
of
our
Manufacturing
in
the
area
and
see
hydrogen
as
a
as
a
actual
alternative
to
that
gas
supply
and
then
the
other
area
which
which
Mark
briefly
mentioned,
is
whether
there's
an
opportunity
for
hydrogen
to
be
used
for
transport
purposes.
N
So,
for
example,
there's
there's
a
long
distance
hgvs,
we're
actually
maybe
not
practical
or
was
to
use
the
electricity
for
those
things,
but
also
we
won't
probably
Electrify
the
whole
of
the
rail
network.
That'd
probably
be
too
expensive.
So
are
there
opportunities
to
run
things
like
hydrogen
trains
on
parts
of
the
parts
of
the
rail
network
too?
So
all
of
these
applications
they're
pretty
much.
Some
of
it's
in
its
infancy,
but
you
know
we're
already
seeing
some
practical
applications
of
it
already.
It
is
an
emerging
area.
N
M
Sorry,
Mark
yeah,
sorry
just
add
to
that
yeah
exactly
that
we
are
using
green
hydrogen
for
the
village,
but
the
other
one
is
regarding
transport,
we're
in
discussions
with
BP
at
the
moment,
looking
at
a
potential
site
in
Leeds
for,
for
you
know,
Transportation,
so
there's
quite
a
lot
going
in
transportation
as
well.
Okay,.
L
So
I
think
the
only
other
minor
thing
to
add
is
we've
been
working
with
element,
energy
and
they've
been
mapping
out
different
fleets
across
the
city
who
are
interested
in
hydrogen
and,
like
Mark,
says,
there's
there
is
work
going
on
to
see
whether
we
can
secure
funding
for
a
hydrogen
station.
It
wouldn't
be
something
that
was
delivered
by
the
council.
It's
private
sector
that
are
looking
to
deliver
it.
All
we've
done
is
facilitate
those
conversations
happening.
So
just
so,
people
are
aware.
O
Just
to
kind
of
from
a
very
much
a
layer
person's
point
of
view,
I've
got
a
GCSE
in
chemistry,
but
that's
as
far
as
I
go
that
this
should
just
pick
up
on
what
Neil
said
about
this
being
a
blend:
hydrogen's,
not
the
whole
answer,
but
it
will
be
part
of
a
blended
approach
and
so
I'll
see.
Punts
are
not
suitable
for
houses
like
mine
that
are
leaky
and
Victorian,
and
you
know,
and
therefore,
because
they're
old,
you
know
you
need
a
well
insulated
house
for
an
SRC
pump.
O
So
there
has
to
be
a
blended
approach
to
heating
our
homes
and,
and
so
hydrogen
needs
to
be
part
of
the
mix.
But
it
is
that
Blended
approach
and
again
with
transport
as
well,
and
it's
because
transport
is
our
other
huge
percentage
of
our
carbon
output.
So
if
that
can
go
to
hydrogen
as
well
as
was
mentioned,
that
would
be
a
big
step
in
becoming
next
Net
Zero.
Thank
you.
A
Yeah
sorry
there
was,
you
can
probably
hear
me
without
it,
but
people
at
home
count
yeah
as
part
of
our
discussion
on
inclusive
growth.
Most
recently,
there
was
almost
an
implication
that
some
of
the
Intensive
energy
using
Industries
might
have
to
fall
by
the
wayside,
and
part
of
the
challenge
might
be
to
replace
those.
A
If
we
can
decarbonize
and
generate
their
energy,
then
we
might
not
have
to
strip
ourselves
as
of
those
engineering,
those
manufacturing
capabilities
and
the
implications
it
would
have,
because
many
of
them
are
located
in
some
of
our
what
I
say,
poorest
areas
with
people
who
are
struggling
in
terms
of
cost
of
living
crisis,
not
not
just
from
the
last
few
months
but
throughout
their
lives
over
the
last
few
decades.
So
that's
a
very
interesting
element
and
touches
on
another
dimension
of
our
concerns
as
a
board
right,
Council,
Linux,
you'd
indicated.
H
Thank
you,
yeah,
really,
exciting
infrastructure
that
will
will
do
so
much
for
for
our
carbon
neutral
targets.
I've
just
got
a
couple
of
questions
about
how
this
will
eventually
come
to,
hopefully
in
the
future,
to
households.
H
What
do
is
there
anything
yet
that
we
can?
We
can
see
about
how
how
we
think
this
might
in
this
technology
might
impact
household
bills
for
people.
Hopefully
we're
not
going
to
be
in
the
situation
that
we're
in
currently
forever
and
hopefully
energy
will
become
more
affordable
again,
but
will
there
be?
H
H
It
is
really
good
to
see
that,
where
the
the
this
infrastructure
is
being
brought
in
in
the
north,
we
know
there's
Regional
inequalities
with
them,
energy,
which
means
that
up
north,
we
pay
more
for
our
energy
than
people
do
down
south
I'm
wondering
whether
there's
any
conversation
yet
about
a
subsidy
for
putting
risk
infrastructure
in
from
the
energy
utilities,
companies
and
the
providers,
whether
they're
involved
in
this
conversation
at
all,
and
because,
obviously
this
is
the
way
that
the
future
will
look
for
us
it'd
be
interesting
to
hear
whether
this
is
backed
by
utility
companies,
to
the
extent
that
it
should
be
because
they're,
the
ones
with
all
the
money.
M
Regarding
costs
of
hydrogen,
there's
various
different
research
going
on
at
the
moment
to
see
how
that
will
map
out
it,
as
Neil
mentioned,
if
they
can
use
the
contained
green
energy,
then
that's
great,
but
there
are.
There
are
stiff
research
at
the
moment,
so
it's
very
difficult
to
say
that.
But
if
you
look
at
the
cost
of
solar
panels
and
all
that
you
know
other
other
Technologies,
even
even
you
know
televisions
Etc,
you
know
that's
come
down
over
time.
So
that's
what
we're
working
on
at
the
moment
is.
M
It
will
come
down,
but
we
don't.
We
don't
know
at
the
moment
in
terms
of
utility
companies
yeah
we
are
talking.
We
are
talking
to
the
utility
companies.
Most
of
our
work
is
liaising
with
base
at
the
moment,
so
we're
trying
to
work
out
the
best
way
to
change
over
the
infrastructure
that
includes
the
equipment
in
people's
homes.
M
I
mentioned
about
the
appliances
up
at
the
the
Helms
in
gateshead
the
boilers,
but
one
of
them
anyway,
is
what
they
call
in
a
100
hydrogen
ready.
So
it
can
run
on
now
on
natural
gas
and
with
a
few
modifications
it
can
then
be
converted
to
running
hydrogen.
M
What
we've
been
pushing
for
is
a
decision
for
for
a
discussion,
at
least
with
with
Bayes
and
government,
in
terms
of
having
those
rolled
out
as
every
day,
so
the
the
the
manufacturers
saying
that
there's
not
a
great
difference
in
costs
between
the
two
they're
on
the
same
kind
of
frame
so
the
same
size.
It's
been
in
the
same
area,
but
if
you
could
have
the
boilers
going
out
as
hydrogen
100
hydrogen
ready.
That
would
save
a
lot
of
costs
going
forward
in
terms
of
the
other
appliances.
M
That's
again
something
at
the
moment
we're
still
doing
discussing
with
base
but
yeah.
Obviously
they
would
typically
be
just
working
on
hydrogen
because
it's
not
cost
effective
to
do
hydrogen
ready,
but
something
convert
them
you'd
be
cheaper
to
replace
them.
So,
but
that's
what
we're
working
on
at
the
moment.
M
Unfortunately,
not
just
because
of
the
nature
of
the
gas
hydrogen's
got
about
a
third
of
the
energy
value
that
we've
got
for
natural
gas,
so
you've
got
to
have
to
get
more
gas
through
the
appliances
and
it's
slightly
bigger
pipe
work.
They've
also
the
way
it
burns,
particularly
for
for
a
hob
and
a
cooker,
you
you
have
to
change
the
the
burner
heads
and
and
it's
a
different
way
of
working.
M
Basically,
so
it's
it's
a
you
know,
it's
not
it's
not
possible
to
do
that
at
the
moment,
but
it's
not
possible
to
do
that.
But
that's
what
we're
trying
to
work
on
the
the
more
expensive
appliances
trying
to
do
those
so
they're
hard
and
ready.
A
M
Yeah
part
of
the
requirement
we've
got
in
the
village
trial
is
a
rollback
when
an
Exit,
Plan
and
again
we're
still
working
through
that
with
Bayes.
M
The
the
trial
will
run
for
about
two
years,
so
we
run
from
2025
to
about
2027
and
in
that
time,
we're
expecting
a
decision
from
base
on
whether
they're
going
to
have
hydrogen
in
the
domestic
environment.
So
we're
planning
at
the
moment
to
roll
them
back
to
Natural
Gas.
But
that
might
not
be
possible
because
if
they
change
the
raw,
the
rules
and
the
law,
we
might
not
be
able
to
roll
them
back.
So
we
we
are
looking
and
talking
with
the
dnos
as
well,
about
network
capacity
on
their
side.
M
If
we
had
to
go
for
heat
pumps
or
other
forms
of
electrics
Heating.
C
Thank
you,
chair
and
chemistry
was
my
worst
subject
at
school.
I
couldn't
even
understand
the
questions,
but
I
I
just
wanted
to
ask
a
couple
of
things.
C
C
That's
the
first
question
and
then
just
going
on
to
the
transport
side
of
things.
You
know
we
were
told
20
years
ago
that
we
had
to
buy
diesel
cars.
Petrol
was
no
good
and
now
that's
been
completely
discredited
and
we're
now
being
told
that
we
must
have
electric
cars
and
now
there's
a
suggestion
that
we
might
have
to
change
the
hydrogen
cars
now
who
is
actually
paying
for
all
this?
What's
the
cost
of
this
because
Council
Annex
touched
on
this,
is
it
is
there?
C
Is
this
entirely
in
terms
of
Northern
gas
networks?
Is
this
simply
private
money,
or
is
there
a
government
fund?
That's
that's
paying
for
all
this
experimentation
and
I
would
just
say
that
as
Council
Annex
suggested
that
costs
are
loaded
onto
companies.
Well,
that's
fine,
but
the
companies
don't
pay
the
costs.
M
Okay,
just
go
back
to
the
first
part
of
your
question
about
natural
gas
and
hydrogen.
But
were
you
saying
about
the
the
conversion
between
a
competition
between
natural
gas
and
hydrogen
or
hydrogen
electricity.
C
M
Okay,
yeah
yeah
well
I'll
be
exactly
the
same
and
Neil's
mentioned,
and
there's
a
mentioned
it.
Hydrogen
isn't
a
solution
to
everything.
M
M
The
the
heat
pumps
are
not
ideal
because
of
the
way
that
they
work.
They
look
at
a
constant
heat,
whereas
you
know
hygiene
would
be,
would
be
better.
So
we
see
it
as
a
network
going
forward.
There'll
probably
be
more
people
on
heat
pumps
and
electric
heating
than
there
is
now,
which
is
fine.
You
know
it's
not
it's
not
a
a
winner
takes
all.
It
will
be
a
like
a
hybrid
solution.
M
The
other
question
was
regarding
funding.
At
the
moment,
a
lot
of
our
Innovation
funds
comes
from
off
gym,
so
we
as
gas
networks,
we
get
a
certain
percentage
that
we're
allowed
to
spend
on
Innovation,
but
that
is
supplemented.
So
we
as
as
as
ngn
and
the
others
we
have
to
put
in
a
minimum
of
10
of
our
own
money
for
that
research
yeah.
Was
that
the
the
third
part
of
the
question.
C
It
was
just
my
fear
that,
eventually,
because
of
this
perceived
rush
to
carbon
neutrality,
the
consumer
will
actually
end
up
paying,
so
poor
people
in
poor
areas
will
pay
more.
Is
that
it
because,
from
what
you've
just
said,
is
off
gem,
which
is
public
money,
are
paying
you
to
do
this
experiment?
Is
that
right.
M
E
Thanks
chair,
some
of
my
questions
have
been
covered,
but
a
couple
of
things
throughout
their
chair
mentioned
about
industry
and
predominantly
things
like
steel
industry
and
cement
production,
very
energy
intensive,
there's
something
on
the
news,
the
other
night
about
somewhere
in
Sweden,
using
hydrogen
for
steel
production
on
a
relatively
small
scale.
But
all
these
things
start
off
a
small
scale,
so
it
is
there.
E
Neil
Evans,
mentioned
about
hydrogen
storage
and
again
on
science
program
on
radio.
A
few
months
back
now
there
was
a
small
Scottish
Island,
totally
isolated
from
the
grid.
So
a
perfect
test
bed
were
the
use
solar,
they
use,
weed
and
and
the
way
they
store,
that
is
by
producing
hydrogen,
which
they
then
use
in
turbines
to
produce
electricity.
E
Cost
per
therm
of
gas
has
been
touched
on
in
some
of
the
questions
on
cost,
but
we've
not
actually
had
an
answer
to
that.
Yet
you
say
it
takes
three
times
more
hydrogen
for
the
same
amount
of
gas,
because
the
calorific
values,
but
will
that
mean
that
the
hydrogen
costs
three
times
more.
A
N
Mark
will
come
a
bit
on
the
last
bit.
I
just
want
to
go
back
to
what
kind
of
smokey
was
saying
earlier,
a
little
bit
say:
the
government
is
com
committed
to
2050
of
carbon
zero
of
Net
Zero,
and
that
means
taking
out
all
carbon
from
domestic
Heating
and,
insofar
as
there
is
political
disagreement
about
that
between
the
major
parties,
it's
really
about
the
speed
at
which
that
is
done.
N
N
How
will
that
compare
in
price
and
Effectiveness
against
hydrogen
and
I?
Think
probably
the
conclusion
that's
being
reached
at
the
moment
is:
hydrogen
won't,
be
won't,
be
cost
effective
across
the
whole
of
the
country,
but
it
may
play
it
may
play
a
part.
But
those
are
those
are
the
Alternatives
now
the
issue
around
cost
is
it
may
well
cost?
It
may
well
cost
more,
but
clearly
the
Alternatives
of
you
know
four
degrees
increase
to
the
climate
or
also
massively
expensive,
I,
suppose
being
more
optimistic.
N
If
we
went
back
a
decade
or
so,
wind
was
more
expensive
than
gas.
Now
it's
actually
cheaper
than
gas
in
terms
of
actual
production.
So,
but
but
in
a
way,
the
the
the
the
the
debate
is
not
about
the
end
point.
It's
really
about
making
some
choices
between
the
Alternatives
and
and
then
just
and
and
I
suppose,
being
again,
maybe
being
a
little
bit
more
optimistic
about
it
and
going
to
to
the
the
point
that
was
made
about
barriers.
N
Is
that
if,
if
we
think
about
these
things
in
sufficient
time,
actually
appliances
do
turn
over
and
we
can
plan
for
that
and
part
of
the
reason
for
getting
involved
with
this.
So
early
was
actually
we
were
able
to
again
get
engaged
with
Leeds
University,
for
example,
to
be
doing
some
of
the
work
on
the
appliances
and
there
are
real
opportunities
in
the
manufacture
of
appliances
when
you
actually
move
into
new
new
areas
which
actually
create
kind
of
manufacturing
opportunities
as
well,
and
they
see
some
actual
economic
benefit
coming
out
of
that
of
that
transition.
N
But,
as
my
central
point
is
I,
don't
think
we're
seeing
this
as
there
aren't
the
gas
isn't
the
alternative?
It's
is
it
Airsoft
heat
pumps?
Is
it
hydrogen?
Is
it
electrification
of
the
Railway
or
is
it
hydrogen
to
do?
Do
Journeys?
It's
not.
Can
we
use
gas
and
can
we
use
petrol,
though
that's
kind
of
off
the
table,
2050.
A
M
To
answer
the
question
regarding
three
times:
the
amount
of
hydrogen:
when
you
get
your
gas
bill,
the
natural
gas
bill
you
pay
for
the
energy
value,
so
that'll
be
the
same.
You
you
pay!
It's
you
pay
for
the
energy
value
of
the
hydrogen
rather
than
the
actual
volume.
K
Thanks
chair
and
yeah
thanks
for
coming
along
today,
this
is
a
really
interesting
discussion
and
I'm,
a
big
believer
that
we
need
to
be
trying
these
things
out
and
experimenting
and
have,
and
we
need
to
go
for
a
mixed
portfolio.
There's
not
going
to
be
one
simple
answer
to
this,
so
yeah.
Thanks
for
your
work
on
it,
I
just
want
to
understand
a
little
bit
more
about
the
idea
of
mixing
mixing
in
gas.
So
you
talked
about
20
percent
hydrogen
mixed
with
natural
gas.
K
What
does
that?
What
does
that
look
like
in
terms
of
the
cost
of
that
and
and
if
we
wanted
to
then
convert
that
to
100
hydrogen?
It
sounds
like
that
wouldn't
be
possible
because
of
the
appliances,
appliances
and
things.
So
what's
the
kind
of
what
infrastructure
is
needed
to
do
that,
and,
and
is
that
worth
it
compared
to
going
for
a
more
wholesale
conversion
there?
And
why
and
why
20
you
were
saying
back
in
the
day
we
had
50
hydrogen.
K
What's
for
what's
for
reasoning
behind
the
20
figure,
maybe
I've
radically
misunderstood
the
whole
concept.
So
that's
fine.
If
that's
the
case.
M
No,
that's
fine,
it
is
not
complex,
but
there's
a
lot
of
things
behind
it.
So
the
reason
for
the
20
is
because
that
is
what
the
current
domestic
appliances
designed
for
they
are.
They
can
take
up
to
23
blend
without
any
modifications.
M
So
that's
why
it's
20
back
when
it
was
towns,
gas,
they
had
to
change
the
burners
and
they
had
to
make
modifications
to
appliances
from
towns
against
natural
gas.
But
if,
if
we
can
do
20,
that's
a
kind
of
an
easy
win,
if
you
like
it's
between
a
six
or
six
and
seven
percent
carbon
saving,
it's
not
it.
Doesn't
it's
not
it's
not!
It's
not
a
one-to-one
saving
because
of
the
volumes
Etc
in
terms
of
the
equipment.
M
M
So
in
terms
of
being
able
to
do
that
for
domestic
anyway,
that's
the
kind
of
not
not
a
huge
cost.
There
will
be
a
cost,
but
you
know
there's
not
a
huge
cost.
M
The
challenge
is
that
some
industrial
users
were
can't
take
the
20
blend.
So
even
though
the
domestic
can
some
of
the
industrial
can't,
particularly
some
of
the
ones
you
mentioned
earlier
in
the
steel
and
particularly
the
refractory,
so
uses
they
they're
bonus
designed
for
100
natural
gas.
So
that's
that's
a
bit
of
a
bit
of
an
issue
going
forward
which
is
being
resolved
and
being
worked
through
by
other
projects
such
as
high
net
foreign.
K
Thank
you.
So
it
sounds
like
the
kind
of
infrastructure,
for
it
is
a
basically
somewhere
for
a
container
and
having
a
container
for
it,
which
you
can
then
mix
in
and
have
you
identified
any
areas
where
which
are
basically
just
residential?
Where
you
could
you
could
mix
That
Into
You
have
a
kind
of,
and
is
that
a
relatively
quick
win?
Is
that
something
that
could
happen
over
the
next
couple
of
years,
for
example,
or.
M
Yeah
there's
a
decision
by
government
in
2023,
probably
the
end
of
next
year,
whether
we
can
go
ahead
with
blending.
Currently
we're
not
allowed
to
there's
a
restriction
under
the
the
the
competition
competition
composition
of
the
gas,
but
so
they'll
need
a
need
to
be
a
a
change,
but
that's
we
had
an
exemption
for
the
for
the
trial.
M
We
we've
also
been
talking
with
European,
Partners
and
and
trying
to
guess
transmission,
and
they
are
talking
about
putting
a
five
percent
blend
which,
if
you're
aware,
but
you
know,
we
import
our
a
portion
of
our
gas
from
Europe
interconnect
us
from
Norway
and
France
Etc.
So
they
are
talking
about
putting
a
five
percent
blend
in
via
Europe
as
well.
M
So
we
we
could
get
it
either
locally,
as
you
say,
like
we've
been
doing,
but
we
also
could
put
it
in
where
we
receive
gas
in
at
the
terminals,
either
from
the
North
Sea.
Where
it's
you
know,
we
recover
it
ourselves
or
when
it's
imported.
P
Thank
you
I'm.
Finding
this
absolutely
fascinating
and
thank
you
for
inviting
me
chair,
I,
really
appreciate
that
a
number
of
things
that
I
was
interested
in
have
been
picked
up.
So
if
I
go
back
to
my
notes,
one
of
the
questions
I
had
was
about
the
infrastructure.
I
think
you
were
talking
about
a
mixture
of
new
infrastructure
and
adapted
infrastructure.
So
I
was
interested
in
what
adaptations
were
necessary
with
current
infrastructure
that
we've
got
another
one
was
in
the
village
trials.
You
said
that
the
hydrogen
was
all
green.
P
Hydrogen
and
I
was
interested
in
where
you're
getting
the
energy
for
electrolysis
for
for
those
trials
and
I.
Think,
oh
just
one
more,
he
said
there
are
three
possible
sites
for
Town
trials.
T-Side
Humber
leads
am
I
right
in
understanding
that
you
are
producing
hydrogen
in
in
two
of
them
and
if
that's
the
case,
if
Leeds
was
going
to
be
one
of
them,
would
you
need
to
produce
hydrogen
here.
M
Okay,
I'll
try
a
couple
of
couple
of
those
off
infrastructure
wise.
We
are
trying
to
repurpose
as
much
as
possible
with
with
the
the
assets
we've
got.
We
as
a
gas
Network.
We
operate
37
000
kilometers
of
pipe,
mostly
distribution,
which
is
the
low
pressures
in
the
streets.
M
You,
you
probably
noticed
over
the
last
20
years,
we
have
actually
been
going
around,
not
just
a
gas
industry.
We
go
around
replacing
the
old
cast
iron
Mains
with
the
plastic,
yellow
PE,
that's
compatible
with
hydrogen.
So
that's
that's
great.
It's
a
real
positive
thing
and
we
will
be
reusing
that
that
Network
as
much
of
my
all
of
it
there
might
need
to
be
some
minor
reinforcements.
M
But
you
know
we
plan
to
reuse
that
I
mentioned
about
the
project
Union,
which
is
the
National
Grid,
which
is
the
high
pressure
transmission
Network,
which
is
kind
of
the
backbone
of
getting
the
the
the
currently
natural
gas,
but
working
towards
20,
25
of
that
being
repurposed
for
hydrogen
and
looking
at
where
those
roots
need
to
be.
M
The
challenge
is
where
we
currently
take
our
gas
off
the
high
pressure
Network
and
get
it
to
you
know
the
outskirts
of
the
towns
where
we've
got
the
the
gas
Governors.
That
infrastructure
is
dedicated
to
natural
gas,
so
we'd
have
to
put
in
some
additional
connections
from
the
international
grid
system
to
where
we
need
it
at
the
outskirts
of
the
the
the
towns
or
cities.
So
that's
that's
the
kind
of
infrastructure,
but
we
are
trying
as
much
as
possible
to
reuse
all
the
investment.
M
That's
been
over
typically
100
years,
some
of
the
gas
networks,
but
yeah
so
mentioned
about
the
the
use
of
green
hydrogen
in
the
village
EDF
one
of
the
the
key
suppliers
they've
got
offshore
wind
farms
and
they're
doing
exactly
what
Neil
said
earlier.
They're
planning
to
use
the
constrained
electricity
produced
from
from
those
to
to
use
on
on
our
trial,
which
is
why
we
we're
looking
at
above
ground
and
below
ground
storage,
so
that
we
can
smooth
out
those
Peaks
from
production.
But
we
also
have
peaks
in.
M
M
M
Yes,
we
are
looking
at
the
main.
The
main
two
we're
looking
at
as
t-side
and
homicide,
which
is
to
say,
is
your
rightly
part.
Average
production
leads.
We
are
we're
keen
to
do
leads
and
that
might
be
later
in
the
town.
M
So
what
I
mentioned
about
you
know
10
to
20
000
that
might
be,
for
instance,
in
in
t
side,
but
the
further
200
000
rollout
might
be
leads,
for
instance,
and
that's
where
we
Link
in
with
national
grid
for
repurposing
there
high
pressure
pipeline,
so
we
can
actually
get
it
transported
down
to
the
absolutely
leads
and
the
the
the
the
pipelines
we're
looking
at
are
on
actually
the
east
side
of
Leeds,
which
is
why
I'm
going
to
mention
that
area.
M
But
that
depends
on
their
timing
as
well
as
some
other
researchers
going
on,
but
we
we're.
As
I
mentioned,
you
know
the
biggest
urban
area
we've
got
as
a
network
is
West
Yorkshire,
yeah.
A
Could
I
just
pursue
you
a
little
further,
because
obviously
there
will
be
public
interest
and
we
we've
got
the
media
here
and
it's
important
that
everything
is
put
in
the
the
clearest
possible
context.
When
you
talked
about
the
town
pilot
briefs,
you
mentioned
the
three
areas,
including
Leeds.
A
M
Yeah
we've
we
have
to
put
a
proposal,
as
you
say,
for
January,
into
base
for
funding
for
these
this
project.
The
first
phase
is
an
outline
design
which
is
run
will
run
from
April
through
till
April
23
to
March
24,
and
that's
where
we'll
be
looking
at
the
three
different
options
in
terms
of
the
what
production,
what
storage,
what
infrastructure,
what
end
users
there
are
both
domestic
and
commercial
and
Industrial.
M
So
that's
that's
kind
of
next
year's
project
we'll
be
actually
looking
at.
What's
what
is
what
what
is
the
best
option?
Looking
at
the
kind
of
infrastructure
we're
going
to
need,
as
well
as
the
end
use.
I
Thank
you,
chair
with.
Q
The
hydrogen,
with
my
limited
knowledge
of
chemistry,
is
very
highly
flammable
and
when
you've
got
it
in
properties,
it's
orderless
and
you
can't
even
smell
it,
and
it's
got
no
color
to
it
either.
What
we
do
would
we
do
in
those
houses
to
detect
a
leak
because,
obviously
it's
it
catches
fire
a
lot
quicker
than
the
the
other
gases.
So
how
safe
are
we
and
obviously,
looking
at
current
threats
in
the
world?
You've
got
the
hydrogen
story:
tanks?
How
safe
would
they
be?
Q
What
would
we
do
to
make
sure
that
this
skill
and
what
would
be
the
impact
of
any
sort
of
technological
attack
that
can
be
done
nowadays
using
computers
and
under
the
systems
on
such
storytanks
foreign.
M
Yes,
you're
right,
it
has
a
wide
A
flammable
range,
but
natural
gas
obviously
is
flammable
as
well.
We
already
add
an
odorant
to
natural
gas,
because
natural
gas
doesn't
is
olderous
as
well,
so
we'll
be
doing
exactly
the
same
for
hydrogen,
we'll
be
adding
odorant
to
that,
so
you'll
be
able
to
be
able
to
smell
that
so
you've
kind
of
the
first,
the
first
mechanism
in
terms
of
if,
if
there
is
a
leak
you
this
is
smell
as
well
as
there's
other
other
things.
M
You
know
the
gas
safe
checks.
You
know
on
the
appliances
as
well
as
your
houses
in
terms
of
other
safety,
the
the
appliances
which
are
mentioned
up
at
the
hardened
homes
they've
got
some
added
features
so
very
much
like
you
have
for
the
electric
Hobbs
cookers
when
you
turn
it
on.
They
have
LEDs
to
show
that
they're
on
they
do
boom
with
an
orange
flame.
But
it's
not
as
easy
to
see
as
it
is
with
a
blue
with
it
with
a
natural
gas.
M
They've
also
got
flame
failure
devices
in
them.
So
if
the
flame
does
go
out,
it
cuts
the
gas
off.
So
again,
what's
what
we've
done-
and
this
is
part
of
the
a
base
for
a
new
project
called
high
for
heat
they
looked
at?
How?
M
M
We're
also
looking
to
see
because
one
of
the
benefits
of
moving
from
natural
gas
to
hydrogen
is
you
remove
the
carbon
monoxide
issue,
so
you
know
he's
probably
aware:
there's
there's
a
lot
of
deaths
and
Hospital
admissions
due
to
carbon
monoxide
poisoning.
You
know
that
that
would
be
eliminated
with
the
with
the
hydrogen,
but
we're
looking
whether
you
know.
Instead
of
having
a
CL
monitor
in-house,
you
have
a
hydrogen
sector
just
as
a
just
as
a
means
of
detecting
the
any
potential
leaks.
If
there
are
any.
Q
So
would
these
hydrogen
appliances
be
more
expensive
because
obviously
it'll
be
a
new
production
with
the
extra
safety
features
in
them,
so
we're
looking
at?
How
would
they
be
available
for
the
residents?
Because,
obviously,
if
the
appliances
are
expensive
and
there
is
no
government
grants
or
funding
available,
would
people
then
automatically?
If
it
was
successful,
would
they
actually
go
towards
hydrogen
again?
It's
a
cost
issue
again
for
a
lot
of
residents
who
are
actually
living
in
poverty
as
it
is
and
change.
The
appliances
would
be
very
expensive
if
it
was
expensive.
M
We're
assuming
there
will
be
some
sort
of
Grants
if
an
area
is
converted
to
hydrogen,
you
know
it,
it
would
be
it'd,
be
disinvaded
advantageous
to
the
local
cons.
You
know
the
the
public
if
we,
if
it
did,
go
that
way,
so
it
would
be
part
I'm
assuming
it
would
be
out.
The
project
is
part
of
what
we're
doing
for
the
for
the
village
is
funding
that
part
of
it.
But
again
it's
it's
something.
That's
been
discussed
with
with
the
with
Bayes
at
the
moment,
they're
looking
at
the
rollout
Council.
B
So,
thank
you.
Jacob
you've
got
that.
Thank
you
very
much
for
the
presentation
in
a
scenario
where
hydrogen
was
to
be
used
domestically
by
the
means
of
a
blend
or
100.
What
impact
could
this
have
on
the
trades
industry,
for
example,
would
small
business
Engineers
be
required
to
retrain.
M
Yes,
they
would-
and
we
again
are
looking
at
that-
both
ourselves
and
bays
are
looking
at
that
we're
looking
at
what's
required
for
the
the
network,
guys
within
our
business,
but
bays
are
looking
at.
M
What's
what
will
be
required
for
the
gas,
safe
Engineers
and
the
way
that
it's
been
proposed
with
EU
skills
of
doing
the
work
on
their
behalf
is
very
much
like
happens
currently,
so
you've
got
a
gas
station
engineer,
that's
trained,
for
you
know
the
the
domestic,
but
they
have
bolt
on
extra
modules
that
it
can
do
so.
Lpg,
for
instance,
that'll
be
a
similar
thing
with
hydrogen,
so
be
retrained.
So
it
would
be
it'd
be
more.
M
The
combination
of
both
to
be
honest,
it'll,
be
upskilling
existing,
but
because
the
amount
of
people
we're
going
to
need
to
do
the
conversion
work,
there's
going
to
be
new
new
new
people
probably
brought
into
the
industry.
So
it's
going
to
be
quite
a
quite
a
lot
of
jobs
created
from
this
work.
B
G
Yeah
very
interested
in
this
can
I
just
ask
about
the
storage
above
ground.
You
know
we
used
to
have
the
horrible
I
think
they
called
them
gasometers.
You
know
what
is
going
to
be
sort
of
the
storage.
G
M
We're
currently
in
design
work
for
some
of
that
work,
you're
right
it
going
back
in
the
back.
There
used
to
be
gas
holders,
your
gasometers
in
all
the
city
centers,
and
they
they've
really
been
other
decommissioned
on
a
lot
of
them
removed
we'd,
be
looking
to
look
kind
of
the
outskirts
of
areas,
but
we're
still
working
on.
You
know
what
that
looks
like
there's,
also
industrial
and
the
old.
M
You
know
guest
sites
as
well,
but
yeah,
there's
they'll
be
stored
in
in
bullets
at
slightly
higher
pressures
than
they
were
in
the
gas
holders,
but
there
are
rules
and
regs
around
why
you
can
store
and
how
you
store
it.
This,
the
comma
reg,
so
we
obviously
come
well.
We'd
have
to
comply
with
all
the
regulations
in
terms
of
where
they're
located
and
what
pressures
Etc
they've
restored.
At.
G
I
might
be
a
bit
stickier,
but
what
about
all
the
pie?
You
know
because
you're
continually
getting
gas
boiled
coming
and
digging
pipes
what
will
happen
there
then.
M
Well,
the
current
proposed
plan
is
that
the
mains
replacement
program,
which
is
the
the
work
that
being
going
on,
is
30
years
program
they're.
Actually,
this
year's
20th
year
So
the
plan
is
to
get
the
all
that
work
completed
by
2032.
M
so
that
that
all
that
works
mapped
out,
and
once
it's
done,
it's
done
you
we
won't
go.
We
won't
be
going
back
and
replacing
you
know
the
the
mains
that
have
been
put
in
with
the
plastic,
because
there's
270
000
kilometers
in
the
UK.
D
Thanks
for
that,
yeah
just
a
really
basic
question,
but
I'm
I'm
really
curious.
At
the
beginning
of
your
presentation,
you
spoke
about
the
ways
that
you
would
produce
the
hydrogen
and
one
of
them
was
splitting
water
and
hydrogen.
D
It
just
occurred
to
me
so
if
we
took
a
a
liter
of
water
and
you
split
it
and
you
remove
the
hydrogen,
does
that
have
a
negative
impact
on
the
water
that's
left
over
and
then
obviously
moving
on
that
is,
you
know
on
a
on
a
large
scale,
industrial
scale
across
the
world.
If
we're
removing
hydrogen
in
massive
amounts
from
our
water.
Does
that
have
a
negative
impact
on
the
environment.
M
M
We'd
have
to
you
know
the
the
locations
of
these
sites
are
typically
going
to
be
near
rivers
and
the
like
for
locations,
but
yeah
in
terms
of
the
environment
you
know
Green
is
is
the
is,
as
Neil
said
earlier,
is
the
way
that
we
we
should
be
producing
it.
There
are
other
Innovation
projects,
go
looking
at
other
ways
in
in
that
hydrogens
produced,
not
just
electrolysis,
which
is
a
Neil
mentioned
pretty
interesting
through
it.
M
M
It
produces
in
a
in
a
solid
black
format.
So
there's
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
innovation
going
on
at
the
moment,
because
people
see
hydrogen
as
the
as
a
future,
so
they're
looking
at
innovate,
ways
in
which
they
can
produce
a
hydrogen
all
right.
D
M
O
I
was
just
gonna
come
in
on
a
a
couple
of
things:
we've
still
got
a
gas
storage
facility
in
Crossgates,
I'd
be
kind
of
low
to
see
it
go
because
it's
it's
always
been
there,
all
my
childhood
so
that
infrastructure,
it's
kind
of
already
there
and
and
yeah
they've,
been
replacing
the
pipes
for
20
years.
So
it's
it
seems,
and
when
you
split
water
you
split
it
into
hydrogen
and
oxygen.
Don't
you
so
it
no
longer
remains.
O
Water
just
remains
oxygen
that
you
use
for
other
things
so
and
I
do
know
of
other
people
who
are
already
when
they're
replacing
their
boiler,
buying
hydrogen
ready
ones.
So
I
think
the
the
technology
is
is
creeping
up
and
and
suppliers
and
and
retailers
are
aware
that
this
will
become
quite
a
big
part
of
the
mix.
M
M
So
yeah,
because
because
that's
where
the
the
there's
just
on
the
outskirts
near
the
A1
is
one
of
the
big
infrastructure
sites,
so
yeah
there's
potential
that
is,
potential
mine,
we're
still
working
on
that.
A
I
think
that's
been
a
really
really
interesting,
stimulating
and
thought-provoking
session,
which
I
have
to
say
I'm
glad
we
had,
because
when
it
was
first
mooted
during
our
previous
discussions,
we
thought
it
might
just
be
a
few
bits
of
information
circulated
by
email,
but
obviously
there's
far
more
happening
and
will
continue
to
happen
and
I'm
sure
that
you
will
be
coming
back
to
the
council
either
this
scrutiny
board
or
other
parts
of
the
council
in
due
course
Marco
colleagues
to
update
is
on
on
the
latest
progress.
A
O
To
Jack
could
I
just
say
thank
you
to
the
board
for
considering
it
and
and
inviting
the
officers
and
Mark
here
today,
because
it
can
be
quite
a
scary
thing.
Contemplating
hydrogen
I
didn't
realize
it
was
part
of
the
Town
town
guests.
O
I'd
never
knew
that
so,
but
so
the
really
considered
way
that
the
borders
has
asked
questions
today.
I
really
want
to
say
thank
you.
Okay,.
A
Thank
you
for
that
Helen
right,
just
a
few
seconds
delay,
while
our
current
guests
move
out
in
Martin
Elliott,
Moves
In,.
A
A
I,
don't
know
how
much
you
want
to
say
by
way
of
introduction,
I'm
not
going
to
take
up
any
more
time
by
way
of
introduction.
Other
than
to
say
that
looking
at
this
redraft
is
a
local
plan
is
something
that
falls
upon
the
board
as
part
of
its
corporate
responsibilities
and,
as
everyone
seems
to
be
voting
with
the
fee.
I
am
going
to
wait
a
couple
of
minutes,
because
it
would
be
very,
very
disrespectful
to
ask
you
to
start
presenting
when
everyone's
walking
out
of
the
room.
Okay,
so
Martin
have
you
got
a
drink?
A
Right
I
think
everyone
is
suitably
beveraged
and
settled
down,
so
we
can.
We
can
move
back
to
you,
Marty,
sorry
for
the
Exodus,
I'm,
sure
nothing
personal
directed
at
you
as
I
say
it
doesn't
need
much
of
an
introduction.
This
is
part
of
our
corporate
responsibility
to
look
at
any
changes
to
the
the
local
plan.
I
think
it's
very
welcoming
a
number
of
respects,
but
Martin
do
you
want
to
make
a
few
introductory
comments
and
Helen?
If
you
want
to
add
to
them,
please
feel
free
to
do
so
once
Martin
spinach.
R
Yeah
thanks
councilor
trustworth,
so
I'm
Martin,
Elliott
I'm,
the
head
of
strategic
planning
for
those
that
haven't
met
me
before
and
I
won't
focus
in
on
the
the
detail
of
of
the
document,
but
maybe
talk
a
little
bit
about
where
we
are
in
the
process.
So
it's
taken
us
a
while
to
to
prepare
this
paper,
and
these
are
draft
policies
which
are
going
out
for
their
final
round
of
consultation.
R
Before
we
submit
a
plan
revision
to
the
Secretary
of
State,
the
secretary
of
state
will
then
appoint
a
planning
inspector
and
that
planning
inspector
will
hold
an
examination
in
public
where
they
will
scrutinize
the
comments
that
we
get
back
at
this
stage,
alongside
the
council's
detailed
technical
evidence
base
and
its
justification
for
for
the
policies.
R
So
that's
quite
a
quite
a
quite
a
technical
planning
process
and
it
does
take
quite
a
long
time
to
get
a
plan
adopted.
But
we
are
a
good
way
through
that
process
and
also
I
think
important
to
say
at
a
stage
where
we
can
start
to
add
weight
to
some
of
these
policies.
Subjects
to
the
the
level
of
objection
we
might
get
through
this
consultation
and
I
can
talk
a
bit
more
about
that.
R
If
you
you'd,
like
the
examination
stage
itself,
is
going
to
be
focused
on
looking
at
the
soundness
of
these
policies.
National
guidance
sets
clear
tests
for
what
soundness
is,
and
one
of
those
tests
of
soundness
is
around
lining
up
with
national
guidance
and
that's
I
think
worth
highlighting
as
a
bit
of
a
risk
to
the
board,
because
in
many
ways
these
policies
are
going
Beyond,
National
guidance
and
the
way
that
National
guidance
currently
talks
about
the
role
of
planning
and
climate
change
and
I.
R
So
it's
going
to
be
really
interesting
to
see
where
carbon
fits
into
that,
but
also
the
framework
of
that,
because
we
do
know
that
government
wants
what
they're
calling
National
development
management
policies
on
a
range
of
issues,
which
sort
of
to
some
extent
could
be
welcome,
depending
on
what
they
are
because
to
save
350
plans
across
the
country.
Saying
the
same
thing.
R
He'd
simply
say
it
once
in
National
guidance,
but
could
be
limiting,
depending
on
the
topics
that
that
government
will
focus
on
and
and
of
course,
at
the
same
time,
you'll
all
be
well
aware
that
there
are
debates
going
on
around
things
like
wind
and
the
government's
approach
to
onshore
versus
offshore
wind,
which
obviously
all
have
an
impact
on
the
policies
we're
trying
to
bring
through
here
so
really
Keen
to
hear
your
feedback
today,
this
consultation
runs
until
December
the
19th
and
I'm
happy
to
take
sort
of
detailed
questions
on
the
the
five
topic
areas
that
we
have
in
front
of
us
today.
A
Thank
the
members
have
any
questions
or
comments
at
this
stage.
Dental
shout
outs
at
once:
I
mean
my
own.
My
own
reaction
to
to
the
document
having
read
it
thoroughly,
I've
not
fallen
asleep
many
times
during
the
process
is
that
it
is
a
very,
very
robust
and
comprehensive
submission
to
government
effectively
to
demonstrate
what
the
council
could
do
within
the
powers
afforded
to
it
by
the
government.
I
think
we
must
always
make
that
very
clear.
We
only
work
within
a
framework.
A
That's
laid
down
by
government
to
address
the
massive
challenge
of
climate
change,
climate
emergency
within
our
own
area,
I,
suppose
one
thing
that
stands
out
and
I
think
we're
all
aware
of
is
that
a
major
component
of
any
policy
like
this
is
the
delivery
of
a
sustainable
and
integrated
transport
system
which,
to
a
very
great
extent,
is
beyond
our
powers
at
the
moment.
But
without
it
we
run
the
risk
of
building
more
and
more
houses
which,
because
the
occupants
do
not
have
ready
access
to
public
transport
will
continue
to
generate
more
car
usage
and
I.
A
We
identified
that
from
our
recent
session,
with
with
the
operators
and
others
and
to
get
us
over
the
hump
of
the
covid
impact
and
then
take
us
into
the
future.
It
will
require
a
great
deal
of
government
funding.
So
that's
kind
of
partly
a
comment,
I
suppose
the
question
within
it
is:
how
far
can
we
go
in
terms
of
delivering
our
aspirations
through
the
the
local
plan?
And
this
is
just
one
component
of
the
local
plan.
There
will
be
a
further
component
in
due
course
that
will
be
coming
to
us.
A
But
how
far
can
we
deliver
that
without
massive
changes
in
terms
of
the
way
public
transport
is
aimed
accountable
and
B
is
fine,
and
so
have
we
any
idea
as
to
what
the
status
quo
might
actually
involve
in
practice
in
respect
of
this
plan,
if
it
is
to
be
adopted
following
inquiry
through
a
government
inspector,
big
question,
I
know
Martin,
but
I
think
it
is
the
major
component
that
apps
absolutely
critical
to
our
advancing
in
future
on
our
our
climate
change
initiatives.
R
You're
right
chair
and
the
Leeds
climate
commission,
whose
evidence
we
use
throughout
this
document,
I'd
identified
that
the
two
big
hitters
in
terms
of
carbon
reduction
are
going
to
be
buildings
and
transport,
so
woven
through
these
policies
is
an
approach
to
try
to
get
people
out
of
their
car.
R
Matching
the
connecting
leads
strategy,
ambition
for
Leeds
to
be
a
city
where
you
don't
need
to
own
a
car
and
recognizing
the
way
in
which
new
development
needs
to
both
plug
into
existing
infrastructure,
but
also
generate
the
capacity
for
provision
of
public
transport
in
the
right
place
through
these
policies.
R
So
that's
why
you've
got
a
lot
there
about
green
infrastructure,
promoting
active
travel
and
also
around
20
minute
neighborhoods,
which
is
around
accessing
those
top
nine
facilities
within
a
10-minute
walk
there
and
a
10
minute
walk
back
and
when
one
of
those
facilities
includes
a
transport,
stop
I
think
it's
also
just
for
members
to
to
be
really
clear
that
this
is
a
selective
Amendment
to
the
plan.
When
we
look
to
update
the
plan
in
the
future
and-
and
that
will
start
next
year-
next
February.
R
Hopefully,
when
we
look
again
at
housing
and
housing
sites
and
employment
sites,
we'll
have
these
policies
to
guide
us
in
those
decisions
and
in
that
selection,
so
we'll
very
much
be
incorporating
these
principles
from
the
bottom.
Up
can
I
just
say
is
my
mic
very
intermittent
yeah
I
might
I
might
change
seats
if
that
might
help.
A
A
Okay,
if
any
other
questions
just
going
back
to
the
presentation
we
had
a
few
minutes
ago
ending
a
few
minutes
ago
about
hydrogen
I,
think
part
of
the
policy
unless
I've
misread
it
or
misremembered,
is
that
new
properties
will
not
be
allowed
to
install
gas
boilers
and,
of
course,
that
then
shuts
out
the
possibility
in
terms
of
properties
coming
on
stream
from
whenever
this
is
adopted.
O
O
O
But
yeah
I
mean
it
will
have
to
be
around
kind
of
more
electric
and
and
those
sorts
of
ways
of
heating,
your
homes,
new
homes
from
the
future
and
the
materials
first
approach
that
you
will
actually
have
to
eat
it
that
much
because
you
it's
built
properly
and
to
not
to
passive
house
standards.
But
you
know
getting
there,
but
there's
enough
housing
to
be
converted
from
gas
to
keep
them
very,
very
busy
for
for
a
long
time.
So
I
I
think
you
know
in
terms
of
limiting
the
hydrogen
roll
out.
O
I
F
I'm
Marty
I
just
wanted
to
you.
If
you
could
just
explain
that
read
regards
to
the
policy
g4a
and
with
regards
to
the
bedroom
number
five.
A
F
75
and
with
regard
this
student
bed
space
is
that
smaller
than
the
Leeds
bed
space
and
also
the
section
on
page
21
regarding
the
Leeds
station
when
I'm
reading
it
will
that
incorporate
us.
Having
more
say
with
regards
to
to
the
when
I
know,
they
have
to
come
to
the
council
when
they
improve
making
Improvement.
Will
we
be
able
to
because
at
this
moment
in
time,
what
I'm
trying
to
say
at
this
moment
in
time
it's
a
nightmare
down
there.
F
R
Thanks
Council,
so
so,
just
on
the
The
Green
Space
point
you
you'll
see
in
policy
g4a.
This
is
about
Green
Space
Improvement
in
Green
Space
provision
and
the
the
only
bit
that
the
council's
proposing
to
update
through
this
process
is
the
bit
in
bold,
which
is
clarifying
how
green
space
should
be
delivered
on
site
off-site
and
Via,
commuted,
songs
and
making
the
point
and
the
connection
in
terms
of
sort
of
play,
facilities
and
sustainable
Urban
drainage.
But
just
to
answer
your
question
in
terms
of
the
existing
policy.
R
That's
in
there
for
context,
the
the
student
bedspace
is
is
the
requirement
of
green
space
that
will
be
required
per
bedspace,
so
so
that
that's
a
policy
about
burden.
So
so
new
people
in
New
housing
bring
burdens
to
existing
Green
Space.
This
is
just
calculating
how
we
work
out
what
that
burden
is
in
terms
of
new
new
green
space,
but
that's
already
in
the
plan
and
just
just
on
the
the
the
the
the
lead
station
policy.
R
That's
very
much
a
policy
around
design
and
access
so
that
the
council
can
control
the
sort
of
the
connectivity
of
the
station
and
its
role
in
terms
of
sort
of
anchoring
other
sites
around
that
part
of
the
city.
There'll
be
a
separate
process
which
won't
involve
planning
where
the
council
will
be
liaising
with
network
rail
in
terms
of
the
the
implementation
of
other
parts
of
that
Improvement.
P
I
wasn't
going
to
make
any
comments
on
the
actual
plan.
I
think
I've
done
that
in
different
areas
before,
but
just
on.
The
consultation
feedback
from
lots
of
groups
and
individuals
that
I've
talked
to
in
a
with
a
kind
of
a
climate
hat
on
is
extremely
positive
and
people
see
it
as
ambitious
and
welcome
it
and
I
just
wondered
if
you
had
any
feedback
about
how
you
feel
the
consultation's
gone
from
the
events
that
you've
done
or
any
feedback
from
online
responses.
R
Yeah
thanks
councilor
die
at
this
stage
of
a
consultation.
It's
always
a
bit
difficult
because
most
people
tend
to
submit
toward
the
end.
So
I
think
we've
had
about
150
responses
so
far,
but
we
do
have
indications
that
there
are
significantly
a
lot
more
people
that
are
going
to
submit
a
response
to
us
and,
like
you
say,
I,
think
I'm
getting
an
awful
lot
of
positivity
from
the
policies
and
actually
from
all
parties.
R
So
the
the
development
Representatives
that
we're
talking
to
as
well
very
much
support
the
principle
of
what
we're
trying
to
achieve,
but
because
there's
quite
a
big
cultural
shift
in
some
of
these
policies,
in
terms
of
the
way
that
the
development
industry
do
business,
not
just
in
Leeds
but
across
the
country.
R
Some
of
this
is
quite
hard
for
them
to
a
get
their
head
around
and
B
think
about
in
terms
of
implications
on
viability
and
costs,
particularly
at
a
time
where,
actually
because
of
wider
sort
of
economic
uncertainty,
those
costs
are
also
front
of
their
mind
at
the
moment.
So
so
we're
having
conversations
around
this
being
a
long-term
strategic
policy
to
last
us
for
the
next
sort
of
18
years,
not
just
now
so
Thinking
Beyond
that
but
in
general
it
it
it's
being
very
positively
received
foreign.
D
Regards
the
new
policy
of
the
20-minute
neighborhood,
which
I
think
you've
already
mentioned,
on
the
face
of
it,
everything
I
see
there
is
excellent,
and
especially
when
I
I
sort
of
relate
that
to
the
the
community
that
I
live
in,
which
is
one
of
the
outer
communities
with
very
limited
access
to
Resources,
with
no
retail
zone,
no
commercial,
Zone,
no
formal
recreational
sites
and
poor
levels
of
public
transport.
D
So
the
looks
from
that
policy.
We've
got
a
lot
to
gain.
My
only
concern
is
it
then,
if
I
match
that
up
with
the
Leeds
best
city,
ambition
seems
to
be
a
bit
of
a
contradiction
there
for
me,
because
I
know
I've
mentioned
this
before.
But
if
you
look
at
the
best
city
ambition
that
tends
to,
in
my
opinion,
sort
of
discriminate
against
the
outer
communities
and
channels
a
lot
of
resources
and
funding
into
the
the
central
areas.
D
R
Yeah
thanks
for
that
question,
it's
it's
it.
It's
a
really
important
one,
because
it's
it.
We
need
to
understand
that
the
Ambitions
around
20-minute
neighborhoods
have
to
necessarily
be
be
limited.
We
can't
make
everywhere
in
Leeds
a
20-minute
neighborhood,
because
we
don't
have
the
tools
to
do
that.
We're
not
in
control
of
the
doctor
surgeries
we're
not
in
control
of
the
shops,
we're
not
in
control
of
all
the
facilities
that
we
need.
R
We
are
in
control
of
some
of
them,
so
so
those
that
we
are
in
control
of
like
Parks
and
our
influence
in
terms
of
public
transport
stops
this
model,
and
this
approach
to
spatial
planning
will
of
course
be
relevant
to
individual
Services
investment
plans
moving
forward,
but
a
lot
of
that's
about
marrying
up
those
facilities
against
capacity
and
and
and
critical
mass
in
terms
of
the
number
of
people
that
can
actually
use
these
facilities
to
sustain
them.
R
The
second
thing
to
say
is
that
the
the
20-minute
neighborhood
approach
offers
us
not
only
an
opportunity
to
think
about
where
the
best
places
to
locate
future
growth
are
given
that
they're
already
well
served
by
facilities.
It
gives
us
an
opportunity
to
say
well
if
we
were
to
have
further
growth
in
some
parts
of
Leeds
that
aren't
well
served
by
facilities
can
ensure
that
growth
bring
with
it
those
facilities
that
those
places
are
missing.
R
So
so
you.
You,
therefore
create
that
20-minute
neighborhood
using
new
development
as
an
investment.
D
D
You
know
you
there's
been
massive
development
in
our
area
in
my
community
over
the
last
10
years,
I'm,
not
sure,
there's
any
more
room
to
do
it.
It's
almost
like
this
scheme's
too
late
for
me,
as
far
as
I
see
it,
and
probably
what
you've
just
said
there
to
me
now,
doesn't
give
me
really
any
hope
that
that
scheme's
gonna
benefit
my
community
at
all,
to
be
honest
with
you,
but
anyway,
thanks
for
the
response.
C
It
was
just
a
comment
actually
and
some
information
if
nobody
else
is
aware
of
it
on
page
64,
on
the
section
on
trees,
there's
quite
a
bit
there
about
all
the
number
of
hectares
to
be
planted
and
the
the
actual
number
of
trees
and
so
on,
which
is
also
the
good,
but
just
to
say
that
I
haven't
seen
any
in
any
Council
documents
yet
including
this
one
mention
of
a
scheme
which
is
Leeds
University
sponsored,
which
is
the
new
gear.
C
Wood
and
I
went
to
the
first
planting
of
the
first
20
trees
or
whatever
it
was
last
Friday,
and
there
are
going
to
be
68
000
trees
planted
on
this
site
in
all
Woodly
and
given
the
choice
between
that
and
500
executive
homes,
we're
quite
happy
that
all
these
trees
are
going
to
be
planted
there,
and
not
only
is
it
just
the
trees
but
they're
actually
undertaking
over
a
period
of
time
a
complete
Rejuvenation
of
public
access
in
terms
of
footpaths
and
all
that
kind
of
thing.
C
O
Thank
you,
councilor
Buckley
I
was
supposed
to
be
out
there
on
Friday,
but
wasn't
well
enough
to
attend
and
I
was
really
looking
forward
to
it,
because
I
do
love
a
good
tree
planting
session,
but
I'm
the
lead
to
council
as
well
as
planting
our
own
trees
were
involved
in
the
white
rose
forests
and
that
you'll
be
aware
and
and
work
very
closely
with
the
university
in
terms
of
a
collective
response
to
the
need
for
for
tree
planting
and
accessibility
to
those
areas.
O
So
you
know
so
people
can
enjoy
them
recreationally
as
well
and
you're
absolutely
right.
It
is
preferable
to
other
uses
of
the
of
the
land,
although
there
is
great
pressure
for
use
on
land
for
food
growing.
O
For
you
know
tree
planting
for
energy
production,
you
know,
and
so
I
really
recommend
Leeds
University
for
the
their
use
of
their
land
in
in
this
way,
I
think
it'd
be
really
really
beneficial
for
all
kinds
of
ways,
not
just
carbon
to
question,
but
biodiversity
as
well,
but
I
will
check
and
see
what
we've
got
in
the
white
rose
forest
and
where
the
gay
award
is
included
in
that
and
how
it
it
links
into
I
know
it
comes
under
Council,
arif's
remake,
but
in
terms
of
the
carbon,
it's
a
question
and
things
like
that.
O
C
Having
given
them
a
plug,
I'll
now
make
a
request,
because
they're
well
aware
of
this,
having
undertaken
to
improve
all
these
public
footpaths
and
access,
there's
a
there's,
a
gap
between
the
site
there
and
the
where
the
houses
started
all
Woodly
of
about
500
yards
and
the
footpath
is
in
a
very,
very
bad
State
and
I'm
asking
them
whether
they'll
contribute
to
the
funding
of
replacing
that
path.
O
No,
no
I'm
just
saying
do
drop
me.
An
email
and
I
can
take
it
up
with
like
relevant
officers.
A
Thank
you.
Thank
you
for
that.
That
kind
offer
could
I
ask
two
two
questions.
As
no
one
else
has
indicated.
The
first
really
is
around
the
themes
of
place,
making
and
20
minute
neighborhoods,
and
also
ensuring
that
the
planning
process,
as
far
as
possible,
contributes
to
The
Wider
determinants
of
health,
and
it's
coming
back
to
a
point
that
I
think
has
been
made
already
by
some
members
and
I
think
you
as
well
Martin
and
that's
local
NHS
provision.
A
Obviously
we
have
no
control
over
local
NHS
provision,
but
as
part
of
the
planning
process,
especially
where
we're
talking
about
considerable
numbers
of
houses
being
visited
upon
a
particular
area
or
Community.
Just
how
robust
is
the
process
of
Consulting,
our
colleagues
in
the
NHS,
because
my
fear,
based
on
lengthy
experience,
is
that
as
loyal
civil
servants,
they
will
always
say.
Oh
there
isn't
a
problem,
we
will
find
the
capacity
now.
We
all
know
that
a
growing
issue
amongst
our
constituents
and
I'm
sure
it's
true
of
all
members
represented
here.
A
Certainly
a
majority
of
them
is
the
difficulty
in
obtaining
access
to
primary
care.
We
know
there's
a
national
shortage
and
a
local
shortage
of
GPS
and
Primary
Health
Care
professionals.
So
just
how
robust
is
that
process
of
saying
we've
got
several
hundred
houses
planned
for
this
area
proposed
for
this
area.
How
can
they
be
accommodated
in
terms
of
Primary
Health
Care
provision,
because
it
is
a
continuing
issue
in
our
communities.
R
Yeah
thanks
councilor
trusswell,
so
I
think,
like
many
other
pieces
of
infrastructure,
infrastructure
providers
need
Clarity
in
terms
of
where
growth
is
going
to
happen
and
when
growth
is
going
to
happen,
so
we've
I
think
made
quite
significant
steps
forward
in
liaising
with
clinical
commissioning
groups
and
our
health
providers
through
more
formal
routes
in
recent
years
to
clarify
that
pipeline
of
development,
both
in
terms
of
the
development
plan,
but
also
in
terms
of
what's
coming
through
the
planning
application
process.
R
So
they
are,
in
effect
consultees
now
on
planning
applications
as
they
come
forward.
So
in
terms
of
understanding
the
growth
and
where
it
is
I
think
that's
significantly
improved
and
that
intelligence
is
is
is
is
is
very
good.
R
R
And,
as
you
say,
we
do
get
the
message
back
that
that
they
will
they
will
accommodate
and
provide
for
meeting
that
need
which
I
think
is
why,
when
we
come
to
to
look
at
Future
growth
in
leads,
we
do
need
to
think
more
specifically
around
the
Quantum
of
growth
that
might
be
needed
to
deliver.
For
example,
a
new
doctor's
surgery,
rather
than
simply
placing
pressure
on
on
existing
and
GP
surgeries,
and
that's
something
that
we're
looking
at.
O
Yeah,
just
I
mean
I'm
thinking
about
the
elite
extension
at
the
moment,
and
I
know
that
there
was
a
working
group
specifically
set
up
to
look
at
the
medical
provision
and
GP
provision
and
that
Health
have
been
involved
very,
very
early
on
and
that
shift
to
place
making
when
you
have
got
that
capacity
of
an
awful
lot
of
houses
and
therefore
people
and
and
residents
coming
on
stream
and
that
forward
future
planning,
I
think
is
really
quite
exciting.
O
In
these
Leeds
extension-
and
you
know,
we
included
Health
very
early
on
so
that
they're
not
bolt
onto
the
existing
very
stretch
services
that
we've
got
in
these
seats
at
the
moment
so
and
that
and
the
primary
school
is
planned,
and
you
know
a
medical
center
as
well
and
putting
it
in
very
early
where
you
have
got
that
capacity
with
future
developments
and
considering
Place
making,
rather
than
just
building
houses
and
I'll,
be
based
on
a
road
and
those
cycling
and
walking
and
and
vehicle
provision
that
comes
first
I
think
is
a
real
step
forward
and
what
should
have
been
happening
anyway.
A
It's
just
the
fact
that
there
has
been
insufficient
workforce
planning,
but
it
is
a
tension
and
there
is
already
a
major
tension,
as
we
all
know
from
our
experience.
My
final
question
goes
back
to
to
transport
and
in
in
the
past,
we've
raised
the
issue
of
developers
contributions
to
the
impact
of
their
developments.
A
As
far
as
transport
is
concerned,
and
we
went
through
a
period
And
I,
don't
know
whether
this
is
still
the
case
of
letting
developers
simply
make
a
contribution
via
buying
everybody
in
a
new
development,
a
bus
pass
and,
of
course
that
was
nonsense.
It
helped
us
subsidize
weiker
or
Metro
as
it
was,
but
he
didn't
actually
promote
the
use
of
public
transport
because
there
was
no
public
transport
connection.
A
R
I
think,
for
the
purposes
of
this
document,
councilor
trustwell,
the
the
issues,
are
probably
a
bit
more
strategic
than
that
and
and
setting
out
the
ways
in
which
we
expect
new
development
to
be
located
to
take
advantage
of
public
transport.
I.
Think
on
that
level
of
sort
of
bus
pass
detail.
R
I'd
have
to
defer
to
the
the
the
team
within
transport
that
deals
with
local
transport
plans,
so
I'm
quite
happy
to
get
an
answer
back
to
you
on
that
as
to
whether
or
not
that
remains
a
key
means
of
dealing
with
new
development
as
it
comes
comes
forward,
but
certainly
we're
not
relying
on
that
at
a
strategic
level
in
terms
of
planning
in
Leeds.
A
Okay,
I
mean
I
I
appreciate
the
minutiae
of
looking
at
each
development
on
its
merits
in
terms
of
developer
contributions.
But
surely
it
has
to
be
part
of
a
strategic
approach
that
says
what
we
expect
developers
to
contribute
in
terms
of
commuter
sums
of
of
financial
or
other
contributions
has
got
to
be
built
in
and
the
mechanics
of
that
needs
to
be
thought
out.
I
think
rather
more
effectively
than
has
been
the
case
in
the
past
I've
not
seen
any
other
indications.
So
we'll
bring
this
agenda
item
to
a
close
Helen.
O
Sorry,
sorry,
chair
just
to
remind
People
page
23,
the
consultation
started
on
the
24th
of
October.
It
ends
on
the
19th
of
December.
If
you
could
share
it
and
and
comment
yourselves
I
just
promote
that
here.
Please.
Thank
you
very
much.
A
Hey
thanks
very
much
Helen
I,
think
I.
Think
that's
noted.
I
will
bring
the
discussion
on
this
agenda
item
to
a
close
now,
I.
Think
generally,
what
I
picked
up
from
the
board
is
that
this
is
very
welcome
and
that
it
is
an
attempt,
as
I
think
Martin
has
tried
to
spell
out
an
attempt
to
maximize
this
Authority's
use
of
the
planning
processes
within
the
parameters
set
down
by
government
to
pursue
our
climate
change
agenda
and
I,
don't
see
any
dissenting
voices
or
dissenting
gestures
on
that
score.
So
I
think
we.
A
We
are
very
appreciative
of
the
massive
amount
of
work
that's
gone
into
getting
even
to
this
stage,
and
hopefully
it
will
go
down
well
with
government
and
government
inspectors.
Although
I
think
we
need
to
be
conscious
of
ma
of
Martin's
caveat
that
their
approach
to
planning
and
climate
change
is
in
a
state
of
flux
for
wanting
a
bitter
expression
and
I
think
we're
probably
all
disappointed
at
the
most
recent
decision.
A
That
demonstrates
that
perhaps
the
government's
green
credentials
are
not
as
green
as
we
might
have
liked
in
terms
of
giving
permission
for,
for
the
first
time
in
30
years
for
a
new
Coal
Mine,
which
just
seemed
to
be
retrogressive
in
practice,
but
also
in
terms
of
the
message
that
she
conveys.
But
thanks
very
much.
Martin
thanks
very
much
Ellen
for
your
attendance.
A
Right:
okay!
Well,
that
takes
us
on
to
the
final
agenda:
writing
which
is
usually
for
noting
and
that's
the
future
program.
So
thanks
very
much
everyone
for
your
attendance,
I,
think
another
stimulating
session
and
some
really
interesting
discussions
and
I
look
forward
to
seeing
you
after
Christmas.
A
Becky's
told
me
to
remind
you
that
there
is
the
budget
consultation
online
meeting
sharing
with
your
Indulgence.
There
is
a
online
budget,
consideration
meeting
and
you'll
all
be
getting
a
huge
agenda
pack,
but
I
think
if
you
pick
through
it
only
a
small
amount
of
that
relates
directly
to
the
responsibilities
of
this
scrutiny
board.
A
So
when
the
260
odd
Pages
thump
onto
your
computer
or
onto
your
door
map,
if
you
get
a
paper
copy,
don't
be
too
intimidated
by
it,
because
you
can
put
your
way
through
and
just
pick
those
bits
out
that
relate
to
the
the
responsibilities
of
this
board.
So
thanks
very
much
everybody
cheers.