NEAR Whiteboard Series with NEAR | Technical Deep Dive Sessions, 1 Apr 2020

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From YouTube: Whiteboard Series with NEAR | Ep: 33 Alex from NEAR hosted by Justin Drake from Ethereum Foundation

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Whiteboard Series with NEAR | Ep: 33 Alex from NEAR hosted by Justin Drake from Ethereum Foundation

Ethereum Foundation Engineer Justin Drake (https://twitter.com/drakefjustin) and NEAR Co-Founder Alex Skidanov (https://twitter.com/AlexSkidanov) do a deep dive on the NEAR Protocol Sharding design Nightshade (https://near.ai/nightshade), and Consensus algorithm (https://near.ai/doomslug), covering such topics as slashing, cross-shard transactions, economics in sharded systems and others.

Important links in the video -

At 9:28 - https://near.ai/slashing
At 15:30 - https://near.ai/doomslug

------- About Whiteboard Series ---------

The Whiteboard Series with NEAR is a set of video interviews with Founders who are building scalable solutions for Blockchain. We deep dive into their story, what they're developing and how it is helping the ecosystem.

Follow the latest from NEAR Protocol on,

Website: https://nearprotocol.com/
Discord: https://near.ai/discord
Medium: https://near.ai/medium
Twitter: https://near.ai/twitter
GitHub: https://near.ai/github

#WhiteboardSeries #Blockchain #FutureIsNEAR

A

Hi welcome again in our next episode, we have alex skidanov off from near who's.

A

Going to you know, tell us about the details of his design and as kind of.

A

Framing for the discussion, my understanding is that near basically use.

A

If, as a starting point at least a design from maybe a yoga or year and a.

A

Half ago some aspects of it definitely yeah some aspects of it and you kind of.

A

Fucked up so it would be interesting to see what what the key differences are.

A

Between it and there yep, let's dive in cool, so one of the things that I've.

A

Prepared is just to provide some. Some grounding is some of the design.

A

Decisions in in if and yeah we good as we talk about this like fill in the.

A

Table for now, yep yeah, so so before before we do that. They want me like to.

B

Briefly, the code nitrate, so that when we use terms as we go through, that yeah.

B

Yeah, please yeah, I mean go ahead, yeah, okay, so so the biggest working point.

B

Between near and well, I call the more classic charging designs so aetherium.

B

Uses so the more classic charging designs they have short chains where.

B

Every chart chain is effectively to an extent. It is an independent blockchain.

B

Right so they're, multiple short chains and the- and there is a single chain.

B

Which is what we'll refer to this beacon chain? That's in the theorem term. There's.

B

A single chain which has first of all, significantly higher security, then than.

B

All the remaining chains, so everybody or like a very large percentage of.

B

Participants validates beacon chain and only a sample, validates a wishart chain.

B

And so beacon chain is responsible for many things. One of them is generating.

B

Unbearable randomness and some others would be some way of improving security.

B

Of every short chain, so, for example, one common way of doing one common thing.

B

That exists in many such protocols is or for short chains to respect the last.

B

Block that is known to the beacon chain see if we can chain acknowledged in some.

B

Way that it saw this block and the short chain will never built on top of anything that that is not this block. So that's one of the things that we can.

B

Chain might be doing so. Instead, what we do in near, which is we- we took a step to.

B

Simplify this process, so specifically, the problem is that when you, when you.

B

Need to orchestrate multiple chains, the the implementation becomes pretty.

B

Complex right, you need to maintain each each chain to an extent, has its own.

B

Fortune jewel its own consensus and orchestrating all of that becomes.

B

Designing it thinking about it becomes more complex so near instead, there's.

B

Only one chain which we recall it the main chain, we can also call it the.

B

Nitrogen and this entire design is, is called nightshade, and so what happens is.

B

In this main chain, every block, so it has a header with the pretty standard things.

B

Like previous block or a global stage, with etc and logically, but not.

B

Physically, this block will also contain all the transactions that happened from.

B

The previous block, however, physically, what will actually happen is similar.

B

Similar to other charting designs, this state is logically split into multiple.

B

Shards so, for example, we can think of the entire state, as I can continue a set.

B

Of account, ids, which is split at some bound agent to let's say for shorts and.

B

So any any transaction that touches a particular shirt. So all the transactions.

B

That touch the short one they will load. They will physically be grouped into a.

B

Thing called chunk for short one all the transaction that tied sure to will will.

B

Will logically be grouped into chunk, two etc, and so, even though, logically, the.

B

Block contains all those transactions physically people will only download the block, and the block contains the headers of the chunks. But then they will only.

B

Download chunks for the shards they actually care about, and so every every.

B

Block contains at most one chunk for a particular sure, but it could contain zero. For example, if the chain producer failed to produce it or if it wasn't.

B

Sent on time, and so you can think of chunks as those chunks they closely.

B

Resemble are the church in right, so the chunk builds on top of the previous.

B

Chunk and it builds on top of the state that the previous chang was the result.

B

Of applying transactions in the previous chunk, but but it becomes simpler in many.

B

Other aspects, for example, there's only one for chisel now, there's only one.

B

Concept of finality there's only one concerns was running here and it also.

B

Simplifies to an extent the way, obviously now same as with the short.

B

Change design, the concept of cross our transactions appears right if a.

B

Transaction previously in an onshore, the chain would have touched accountant. Two.

B

Different shirts now it has to be executed separately in every shirt and.

B

So the shirts need to communicate so that also becomes simpler to an extent.

B

And so let's see, let's see how it fits into the table and then, if something is.

B

Not covered with this particular separation, we can cover it later, so I.

A

Have a few questions here, so are you saying that you have.

A

Chunk produces and then block produces right. So the way it works is that there.

B

Is a single set of block producers? So, let's say in in our design that number.

B

Today is between 100 and 200, so if it's more than 200 the system as built today,.

B

Will not necessarily be able to handle it, so the 200 block producers they take, turns producing blocks, yeah right and.

B

Then they also each of them as a sign to some sub sort of shirts right and so.

B

Within those charts they also take turns producing chunks, okay right, so you could.

B

Think about it like every like, let's say, five of the first five are assigned to.

B

Maintain the first five shots and then the next type of a choice do you have.

B

They're, probably going to launch for something very small like 8, but like up.

B

To up to a hundred today will probably be handleable, oh, how the green one.

B

Doesn't work orange okay, so you have you have eight shots. We have 64 and so so.

B

Part of the idea here that we want to launch something that that is.

B

Meaningful today, right so today is especially given like the like. It will.

B

Take time for the wider adoption, so a chart will be more than sufficient and.

B

There is that, once it is shipped and it was operational, then we can do so so.

B

Number of hours we can just do an upgrade and increase after one hundred.

B

Right, but also increasing like beyond 200 validators or beyond, what produced.

B

Restore beyond 200 charts, we can. We can be building the tag to support that as.

B

As the system already is operational and ok, and that option is already so for us.

A

The minimum stake is 32 eve. So if you look at the kind of max number of.

A

Validators then we get we get about: 4 million validators. Oh that's like if you.

A

Divide the total yeah and for you, are you saying that the maximum abilities is.

A

Around 200 right and so instead of having the maximum the specific stake.

B

What happens is everyone in the system can stake any amount at any point right.

B

So you just go and you should have taking transaction and you just say how much you want to stake right and that amount gets locked right and what.

B

Happens is that at the beginning of every epoch and epoch is approximately half a day at the beginning, every epoch. We find such a threshold that if you.

B

Divide every stake by that threshold, then you get at least 200 full seats.

B

Right but but any any higher threshold will yield less than 200 right and so.

B

That will be the the price of a single seat right. So, for example, if I stay.

B

Conduct you speak 50 and when you teach it total, it will say well. Tassel 250.

B

Because if I divide by 50, I will get two sheets and you get one divided by fifty.

B

One, I would get one, you would get zero, and so we don't have enough and like.

A

Sticking is purely optional right, it's and there's no like delegation, so we.

B

Actually do build delegation you have delegation we at least I personally am.

B

Extremely against delegation, okay, however, however, what will happen if you.

B

Don't suffer if you don't support delegation. People will still delegate with the idea that a not everybody wants to run a validator or like blow.

B

Producing note and be many people will be uncomfortable running their own.

B

Infrastructure because there is a high chance of messing it up and getting.

B

Slashed people will delegate, they will just do it off gym. They will just go to one of the professional validators who exist.

B

Today and they will just transfer their money and do like a paper contract which.

B

Is a perfectly viable solution, but now the system does have now it becomes non.

B

Transparently, so we have no insight into how how bad it is actually well, if.

B

Delegation exists on chain, we have, we have very clear picture of how much is.

B

Actually delegated we see the extent of the of the disaster right, so delegation.

B

Will be supported, convey and the delegation is it that you can get.

A

Slashed, if, if you delegate to stake to someone else, someone else to whom you.

B

Delegated maitika can be the dispatchable actor you get slashed. Okay,.

A

Great and like how do you split the rewards? Is that so so the reward is.

B

Effectively at the end of the epoch, the total reward is just split. I think it's.

B

Either equally with everybody or proportional to the number of block blocks produced but yeah, it happens at the end of the epoch. Okay, but I guess.

A

The split in between the delegate, t and delegate error, so that is interesting, so.

B

What happens is staking happens to a smart contract, so every delegate t I.

B

Guess, whoever is actually running the validator right have a smart contract which outlines all the rules of how exactly.

B

The stake will be distributed so in the simplest form it will say. I will just.

B

Give you 80 percent back of the award proportional to to your state, but it.

B

Could be arbitrary, smart contract which will distribute the rewards back? Oh.

A

That's cool, so you kind of have delegation abstraction. Yes,.

A

So these infer, that is, that one of the big cause most validators today has 0%.

B

Or like hundred percent fee and then off chain, they distribute reward according.

B

To some custom rule because it's already happening in practice right, it makes.

B

Sense to to automate it okay great, and what do you think in practice will be.

A

Like the minimum, like amount of value that you need to have one seat, yes them.

B

So I think, if we figure out the percentage of total stake right, that can.

B

Easily be derived right, so if it's like, let's say, dog lost, a kiss, three is thirty percent, then thirty percent over two hundred will be the cost of a single.

B

Seat it it's hard to estimate the percentage.

B

Right so so frigid, I don't have my own estimate ilya, my the other, your.

B

Co-Founder he thinks is going to be over 50% total stake, at least initially.

B

Especially, given that many of the initial near holders their tokens are.

B

Locked meaning that they can stay, but they cannot transfer them. I think, is.

C

Only thing they can do mm-hm yeah, so so, just like think about.

B

Like, let's say, 60% is locked, so that means 0.3 percent is very minimum. Stake.

B

For this sheet, if you have less than that, you can, you can run, you can still.

B

Run a load, it will not be just immediately returned to you, you can you can claim it back right how about ideas that you want to be a fisherman? You need.

B

To please some stick so that we can we can you need. We need to be able to slash.

B

You if you submit an invalid challenge, so you can run a fisherman and there's no reward for the fisherman mm-hm. So a fisherman is entirely willing you it's.

B

Volunteer lee act reasons, for that is that it's actually very hard to create.

B

Fishermen do work in such a way that whomever inputs, your transaction just.

B

Doesn't steal your challenge like you need to do some commit reveal right of some sort, and so, instead of that, we're just saying there are clearly entities.

B

Who will be willing to run fishermen like ourselves right well, like.

B

Hypothetically exchange that is running near and has a large stake in it, so there are there's plenty of entities who will voluntarily run fishermen right and.

B

Then nitrate has this concept of qidan validators, which we don't ship initially.

B

But it's going to be like in one of the few future updates, which provides you an.

B

Extra layer of certainty that, even if you don't trust there is a future man.

B

They will be someone assigned to validate the shard, who is not known to.

B

The system- and so you get the next level we can dive different into it later. Okay,.

A

So I guess I have a couple questions. One is you know you mentioned the road map.

A

That some features are coming later right, like we have phase zero phase, one.

A

Phase two: what is your deployment roadmap right so.

B

I think ours is way.

B

Shorter, so this is an usual mean that, yes, which will be launched. I cannot, I.

B

Cannot provide exact date. It depends a lot on stability right well march. It.

B

Will take until we actually certain that it will not go to on 2019 right. It will.

C

Not happen in 2019 anymore for sure, and so there are two big features that are.

B

Going to be included, it's unbearable, randomness beacon, which we have actually.

B

Built like it's on github right but stabilizing, it will take longer than comfortable yeah, delaying the the launch and hidden validators. So those are two.

B

Big features, yeah and hidden valladares, don't even started yet right. But besides that these sort of long tail of things such as we do need.

B

To scale beyond 200 validators right at some point right early on it doesn't.

B

Matter because we're not going to have enough like the number of total and.

B

Professional people who run validators today is like in all hundreds right, so.

B

Everybody who wants to run clearly will be able to about long term. It means to.

B

Scale yeah, so this this max number value is 200. That's like a technical.

A

Restriction, it's not an economic one. Yep so 200 today is beyond 200. We like we.

B

Will not have the blob production time, for example, that we want to have okay.

B

What is the blob production time? We wish to have one second, at some point: okay,.

B

Today, it is not there yeah, but we can. We can sort of draw the timeline of how.

B

Messages pass and according to the family in one second, is technically.

B

Possible right today, it's somewhere between two and.

B

Three seconds is what we can push: okay yeah, but like once, we once we dive.

B

Deeper into dooms like and nitric like we can just draw the timeline of how.

B

Messages travel for the block to be produced right and, in fact, early what it.

B

Boils down to is it needs to have two round trips between most of the.

B

Validators and and validating transactions, which is two round trips.

B

Okay, yeah, which is which is like round trip between china and iran, to texas, 200.

B

Milliseconds, so without domestically without gossip network that that would.

B

Fit with gossip network, it becomes more challenging yeah, okay, interesting and.

A

How does your system degrade if latency becomes very high, so what happens is so.

B

That boom slug right. I can also cover things like quickly so.

A

That all these thing looks yeah, so those like is this nice, so those like.

B

Is a very new thing right, so the initial almost like we published on the last day.

B

Of the previous decade so glad to go, haha and so those like is this very nice, very simple construction, which is when you.

B

Produce blocks right so so I think this is sort of similar to to a theorem and.

B

Many other systems blocks include approvals right or like some sort of.

B

Increase matter approvals or the examples just from all.

B

Other block producers right yeah, so that's something that will be used for if you now with gadgets, etc, we call them atta stations, you can call them vote.

B

Yeah, we can call them recall them approvals, okay, but yeah. It's all the.

B

Same thing, you know like it's a message from all other, every other block producer and or validator attesting to something in the past right. It could be.

B

It could be the previous look, it could be something else so specifically for dooms like when you create the block to create a block. You need. You need this.

B

Approval from 50% of the remaining block producers from the very previous block.

B

So that's one round-trip one book is published 50% of what producers needs to.

B

Send it to you and once you have that 50% you can produce your book and do we.

B

Have the 50%, you cannot even produce it so the book that does not have 50% of.

B

Our provost is invalid. Okay, so what happens? If you just don't get 50 percent.

A

Then 50, if more, if less than 50 percent are online at stalls, wow, okay, like.

A

Definitely similar to definitely similar to almost everything which is at the.

B

Table 2.0, but also it's not. The third is 50% right. So that's that's already.

B

Mm-Hmm, it's not just a little bit better if you.

B

Think about it right, there's big difference right! It's been requiring two.

B

Thirds of people and 50% yeah because lauren is 50% is also has this side.

B

Effect that if, if you have a little less than 50%, they could be another network.

B

In existence like, why do you have less than 50% what producers one not right.

C

There's a global network split and there's another network building right.

B

Okay, so here we would get to this in question of consistency versus.

B

Availability yeah, if your law wasn't 50 percent. Clearly you look on the available side right. Recording 51 percent is yeah cool being more on.

B

Consistent side right exactly right, and so it requires 50 cent of approvals on.

B

The very previous block and.

B

The way there's approvals work is the moment. You see the book you immediately.

B

Or like after waiting for a little bit for like let's say, 200 milliseconds, you.

B

Sending approval to the next blog producer, who you know and then you wait.

B

For some longer time, let's say for like two seconds or like for one second or two seconds: that's a parameter of the system, and if you don't see the blog, then you send the same approval to the person two blocks.

B

Ahead of you and then again, if you don't see the block, you know a little longer.

B

Time you send approval to the next person right, so he sent approvals to.

A

Block proposals as opposed to actual blocks, so you know so so from a given.

B

Moment, yeah, you know, blood proposes for every height going forward, at least at.

B

Least, if no other blocks happen in between correct, it is okay. If the blood.

B

Proposes changed from the next block is produced. If this block is the last block.

B

Yeah, then, for the next block that is built on top of it, you need to know block proposals for every height right, depending on which hide the next block rule will be produced. There could be.

B

Skips right so, like this kind, like the current block, has height five right. You.

B

Know that if the next look, if it's on height, six will be proposed by one.

B

Person if it's grade 7 by some other, etc right, and so what you do is the moment.

B

You see the block at height, five, humidities and approvals to the person you mediate. Isn't your approval to the person height six, who will be proposing.

B

At head six and then even during one second, you don't see the block you sent.

B

To the person who will be proposing at seven if during one second and 100.

B

Milliseconds, you don't see the block you sent to the next guy and you increase.

B

The time every time mm-hm, so you are sending approvals for a.

A

Specific block not for the tip of the chain, as you know it right now. Yes right.

B

Okay, yeah and you're saying that every block can change the set of future.

B

So that today, today our our schedule is fixed okay. So when you have strong.

A

Randomness that you talked about you will deploy also a way. Yes, okay, not.

B

Necessarily because it does really help with get blessing, because if you know the blog proposers for the particular block, you can ddos them, it doesn't help.

B

In any way that the sharp oh right like, if you don't using some elgar and slash.

B

Robust magic they are ddos about. You know like so right. The course is chase.

C

Okay and so, and so that's practically the entire don't slack, and so what it.

B

Gives is that property number one if a.

B

Particular block has 51 percent of those approvals on the block at the very.

B

Previous height and so the difference in heights is exactly 1, then this block is.

B

Reversible unless at least one seed gets slashed right, okay, so we call it boom.

B

Selection, ality, that makes sense here and then there's a phenology gadget.

B

Which is running on top of that leveraging the very same approvals.

B

There's one extra field in their probe that phenology gadget it right and with.

B

The phenology gadget, if everything goes very well, the blocks are not skipped.

B

Then, when this block is produced, this one becomes completely final by.

B

Completely I mean like standard d of technology where, like one third needs to.

B

Be special right for it to be reversed. The second.

B

Problem but but if those like produces, if there's a skip right so so for.

B

Example, it's u1 say: let's say we configured it to be one second and one.

B

Second is not realistic, yeah right, then you will expect to always have those skips and then you never have finality. So what happens is.

B

In the domes like it has proven that after finite amount of time, there will.

B

Be because of the delay that after some finite amount of time, there will be two.

B

Blocks in a row with atoms like finality right and so and and it will happen very.

B

Closely very close to that moment, when you actually cause the the time the.

B

Actual realistic time out for the blocks right, so those like rescue analogy and.

B

Because of the sari lightness and because of those like blindness, you know.

B

The gadget has lightens right. I hope this to work and if there's a fork, then.

B

Someone gets slashed and you can only slash people find a number of time. Okay,.

A

So you have liveness at 50%, yeah and then below 50%. It's not just. We don't.

B

Have great dip lightness? We don't have any lightning right, yeah, okay, so just to.

A

Recap the fancy gadget. If you have two blocks in a row, both of which, by.

A

Construction will have at least 50% of the votes for the previous block. Then.

A

You in a situation where, if there is a fork, a break of the finality.

A

Then at least one first guess last almost oh of course,.

B

Oh, I see okay, but finality, but but is also so for finality gadget. It's a cape.

B

Approval arise late, so it's a key right. Some approval was.

B

Looking for the senior yeah, you've got a pro bowler. I've mislaid.

B

Yeah wait to graduate who will take advantage of it. So now that you guys.

C

Know we're using the assumption that the pros have to happen.

B

On the very previous block, yeah, okay, the same as kasparov jake is casper frigid.

B

Doesn't care when approval arrived yeah right, so you don't care between. You know.

A

50 and and above and 66 and above I guess we don't care even like from zero.

A

To two lm giggles, yes, yeah yeah yeah right, but I guess first left for /table.

B

There's no flash hole behaviors and only go straight, so four slash ball. Okay, like.

B

Personality or somebody will get slash, there is the threshold of two thirds right, all right, yeah, right, okay, so basically, you've taken these two things.

A

And you've called it doom plug and you have slightly different properties, yeah.

D

Okay, thank you so yeah, I would say like ellen giggles, dooms like and f of g is.

B

The phonology gadget, we call it energy right, you know what you gadget, but.

A

You're saying that they kind of admissions and like slightly cleaner, so.

B

Energy will work with anything. It will work with omg ghost right. It is similar.

B

To f of g, the only like major difference is that in energy, in f of g for finality.

B

Actually doing it two consecutive blocks. Well, in your case, it could be epochs.

B

Right right, it rocks it right, but what we runs an hour together on the block level right. So if we did use f of g, would need to have two consecutive blocks where one of them has two thirds approve us on the previous one and n mg.

B

And I'm just very similar to f of g, it's very similar, commenced and, as I have.

A

This requirement, so you have, you have okay, so the folks voice is tube slogan.

A

And you have n fg right yeah. What oh n is near, of course, per magnitude: 98, okay,.

A

Great yep and it's my kind of generic g, like it also uses like reference.

B

Reference blocks, it's very similar construction right, but slightly.

B

Different sufficiently different to remove that requirement. Okay, great, I.

A

Mean while we're on the topic of like voting with steak, I think it's very.

A

Important to understand you know what is the distribution of steak, because in if.

A

To in a very unique position where you know, we have a running network with you,.

A

Know, let's say 30 billion dollars of steak and it's very.

A

And I think you know near you've come up with some clever ideas to find to have.

A

An initial distribution which is quite relatively in centralized, so so those.

B

Ideas are all currently in student discussion, okay right, so all the ideas.

B

Were discussing last year, yeah, none of them is really in production. Yet.

B

Okay right, so we don't have some amount of pre-sale yeah, which is below 30.

B

Percent, or or like close to it, which is split between us people who built it.

B

Yeah and also people who co-founded it right right so and so it means 40.

A

Percent of this stake at launch, or at lunch as much there, okay right so the.

B

Remaining 70 percent that goes to distribute them to the community.

B

Okay, exact way, there are many ideas. None of them still has decided to.

B

Certainly take take place, but but like some ideas would be to do something that.

B

The handshake was doing, handshake was like doing very, very nice, targeted drugs.

B

To my github account, for example, right where or like have some way of people.

B

Doing some like doing logged jobs, where people can look at video like what.

B

Edgware was doing people before us already found many many ways to.

B

Distribute tokens we just we just need to to analyze and and- and they also.

B

Already did distribute tokens this way, so what we need to do- and we don't have.

B

Enough information, yet is just to look how it went like what happened to the token holders of handshake right. It's happened to the token holders of edgware.

B

Well, sighs: where is not? I know they did launched a few days ago. I think. Oh, they.

B

Did yeah great so so we will have. We will have information mm-hmm to make a.

B

Good but the collagen, the goal is at least remaining 70% must be as.

B

Distributed as possible right, okay, understood.

A

After I get system chain recovered yeah, so your system chain, you call it the the.

A

Main chain right: yeah, okay, okay, and for the deposits. You know we have a deposit.

A

Contract on- and you said, you also have the contracts, but you call them taking.

A

So that thing so that could have been a contract, but instead it's just on the.

B

Protocol level there is a separate kind of transaction right which is taking transaction right where, if you execute us taking.

B

Transaction, it locks the the money and in the next epoch, if you do pass the.

B

Threshold and you become a block producer, if you don't, you can at any.

B

Point would throw the stick, but for some of you have it you can you can you can.

B

Relative, so there's a stake transaction. If you're delegating does it point.

A

Towards a delegation contract cause, if you delegate you that's not just taking.

B

Transaction that just oh yeah, oh I see so basically you have a delegation.

A

Contract and then the day the dessication contract makes to the.

A

Staking transaction yeah: okay, cool, so your negation from delegation contracts.

B

Taking transaction is just one thing: it can execute a delegation contract. You.

B

Don't like ask every particular entity that wants to be delegate key right.

B

Uh-Huh and so they responsible to audit it yeah.

A

Okay, great cool! So yes, one of the things that I've.

A

Been trying to to do in the space is have the various budgeting projects.

A

Agree on basic primitives! So can we talk about those yeah yeah so like one which.

A

Is probably the least controversial which is the hash function?

A

Do you use chat 56? So do you shut the 56 today, yeah the right internal.

B

Discussions to use like blake 3, oh the non, secure one, that sort of so if it is.

A

Not not secure that that will be brought up. I guess right during the conversation.

B

That conversation is not very active, so one of the biggest consideration for us.

B

When we choose the primitives is that we need to have interrupted atheneum say we.

B

Didn't one cannot alright, we cannot use it right because we need like in any.

B

Foreseeable future, most of the assets- we're gonna, see them if we cannot freely.

B

Speak to a theorem one, we cannot, we cannot take take advantage of those.

B

Assets right and so the cash function use must be verifiable in the theorem.

B

Signatures we use must be verifiable material right. That's one of the big.

B

Considerations, I actually don't know which be less.

B

Curves you can validate to their own ethereal, so right now only nope no bill.

A

Describes only the bien to 5/4, but there is a proposal. This two proposals.

A

I guess one is to just implement the most important curve for us, probably.

A

Which is be less 12 381, but there's a other proposal which is to have an.

A

Opcode, which is well actually a family of our codes, which are much more general.

A

And supportive very wide range of curves, so, for example, all the bls 12 curves or.

A

Yeah, but it's one of the reasons why we don't use bls today, is that when you.

B

Only have 200 validators block producers. It is actually feasible to send that.

B

Many signatures right right, but also because of that we can, we can send our.

B

Blocks to etherium and validate them in aetherium side, because I did you two.

B

Fight v online, which can be validated on the team side. Ok, so using edg 500k, and I.

A

Forget what is the opcode support for this on on the theorem one? Well, I don't.

A

Know I don't know iver probably well. If it is it supported on.

B

The well, I hope it is so the beauty of this particular curve is that and that's.

B

Pretty hacky, but this curve this curve can be converted to another curve called.

B

I think it's called distretto right, which is the same as I did you two five.

B

Five one line, but the group size is actually a prime, not prime, multiplied by.

B

Eight right, so you remove the cofactor yeah, so we don't do that under normal.

B

Operation in normal operation, you only use it as indeed 5 9, but the random is.

B

Beacon that we abandoned uses ristretto because it doesn't it. How well do you.

B

Abandoned it or you postponed, responded well imagine for the initial watch right.

B

I'll turn initial launch with on you just yet, though, actually we're probably using for the gfs sorry vxr mm-hmm the same way. But the cool thing is that the.

B

Private can the public key from eg to 55.9 can be converted to ristretto by.

B

Just removing the cofactor yeah, ok great.

A

And then I guess another primitive, which would be good if we could standardize on.

A

And would be the networking layer? What do you use there? We use the ptt so.

B

Networking, I'm not the best person to top co-write whatsapp for some reason, we.

B

Stopped using liquid to pee okay, the reasons I will not remember, okay now, but.

B

Today, we're not using whip-it it's our language support, so I mean you guys have.

A

Writing in russ it is last year at least parity with p2p right. I think I think.

B

Generally, most of the parity code we eventually removed was because of perak.

B

Uses very high abstraction layers right, which are, we use very low abstraction.

B

Layers generally right- and I think lip it was period so are using like a custom.

A

Solution right now: okay from scratch; ok, but it's not like we would be against to.

B

Use with p2p right, it's just that at that point it was cheaper for us to.

B

Build a custom, don't understand the right. I think it was like both pretty.

B

Complex to understand, but also at that point the stability was right. I mean I.

A

Think the pcp has a branch leaps and bounds in terms of production, readiness.

A

With if to pushing it forward and all the other blocks in projects using it, I.

A

Mean one of the things that was that was mentioned is that, like the maybe the.

A

Abstractions of the p2p and rust didn't fit well, where the way your approach was.

A

Organized I mean: are you thinking of having a single client or do you want do.

A

You see a vision where there'll be multiple near clients, maybe some outside.

A

Of the internal, so we're absolutely need multiple clients when they have one.

B

Right now, naturally, because right like isn't, finalized right right so for.

B

Someone else trying to do that would be very painful process mm-hmm, but the abstraction layer of liquid to be no parity is.

B

To support multiple different clients right there, it has very different goal.

B

Well, their goal is to create infrastructure in which people can build.

B

Very different custom block chains right, so they need to have an abstraction well.

B

Near says, there's one blockchain protocol, which is near write with.

B

Homogeneous shirts, but we do want to support multiple different clients.

B

Likely those clans will go through them in different languages right, so we don't need the abstraction, normally p2p. We need something very.

B

Specific and so therefore, code base of near and parity are very different in.

B

Terms of, for example, traits you will see very few traits um in ear while pyrrhic.

B

Is almost every class is generic okay, so you mentioned that you absolutely need.

A

Multiple clients, what is the thinking there? Also the thinking is the same.

B

Thing where they don't want multiple classes, that if there is a implementation, bug right, so I don't think you can defend against back bugs.

B

And, except by you know like verifying spec very thoroughly about.

B

Implementation bugs you can, you can avoid it if you have a sufficient number.

B

Of implementations, each of them sufficiently popular so that no.

B

Implementation has like more than one third, then, if one implementation goes.

B

Down the network remains light right right, so so that's the that's. The.

B

Argument, but also you don't want like the second concern is that imagine near.

B

Like five years from now, you decide to completely people to marketing automation and not working block chains anymore and abandons the client right.

B

It's an extreme example right, but in this case it's very good. If there's.

B

Another client or the queue get like people can pick up and continue.

B

Maintaining I see but there's no theme that is up to speed to page right and.

B

That every other client will continue. This, isn't it easier example, image and.

B

Use some company called parity, which says from now on parities is maintained.

B

In the community right, there's going to be some delay right until community is.

B

Ready to country to continue maintaining it. Yes, there is a team that continues.

B

Good, you know so it doesn't like the innovation doesn't stop. I mean I.

A

Remember you know maybe a year and a half or a year ago you know the nia team.

A

Coming to us, potentially you know saying: maybe we could build in the theorem.

A

Client yeah, but you know we'd need incentivization. So you know, I think the the the proposal was that you know part.

A

Of the you know, inflation would go to the the team developing the clients do.

A

You think you would do that in there for another team too. So it's it's hard to.

B

Say with the client, so one thing we do today, which is I don't remember it was.

B

You who was like a big critic of this idea, but the idea is that part of the inflation goes to the contracts which gets executed, which gets executed so.

B

This is already now that's a cool idea that in place right so and part of the.

B

Inflation already goes to the foundation had to maintain the network right right.

B

So these, but it's not quite found every word because I think found the reward.

B

Was the fact that they give you should found the reward was paying for the.

B

Prior work, well, in our case, we're saying this is this- is the finding of the.

B

Future work right, so the the cement is sort of the implementations. The same the.

B

Semantics is different, so it would be feasible to have also put like for.

B

Example, part of that could be payment for the for the implementers, so he's.

A

Saying that on day one, you will have this feature where, if a contract is.

A

Being used as in transactions trigger it, yeah then part of the transactions fees.

A

Or even the inflation will go to the contract creator yeah! That's exactly how.

B

It works today so today every contract which gets executed during the transaction gets a little small fee from the transaction.

B

Fee right and so motivation behind it is that, like, if you envision the future.

B

Where there's a lot of, or actually that's, not even future, its present right.

B

So it's like consider some defied primitive that exists today right. They.

B

Need to come up with some very complex ways to monetize their projects right.

B

Because they like, if they just the primitive, if they not user, facing the.

B

Neutral, don't pay for using them right, that's what they need to figure out how to monetize. If it's a very popular primitive, like everybody, builds on top.

B

Of this building block, then that little thick would actually be meaningful right.

B

Meaningful monetization for them, as especially, if it's not like a silicon.

B

Valley company, but just the project made by people right, you know somewhere else.

B

That could be very meaningful, so how does it work completely like you.

A

Mentioned it's a cut of the transaction fee, not the inflation yeah and like is.

A

It a fixed percentage like five percent. Okay, take some constant and does that.

A

Money go to an address, or can it also go to a contract? I don't know how it is.

B

Implemented right now, but how it is supposed to be implemented is that the.

B

Contract governs how exactly that money is used. Okay, so there is a possibility.

A

That you know whatever it is the 10% cut it's actually redistributed, given us a.

A

Refund, so that's so there are couple problems there. So that's one of them.

B

Yeah and now the one is that and also technically you can implement it today on this video right, you can make the call to actually.

B

Be payable and require some of these, but this, how are the default is very.

A

Important yes, yeah right so from this perspective, so so so so making it cost.

B

Not part of the reason was so that people people don't work it out and make.

B

It cheaper, so people still can't work it out to make it cheaper by reimbursing.

B

You back right, but that that becomes it's not it's not like as easy. You know.

B

Like if you really just use the cost right, so that would be all over the.

B

Place if it's, if it's an involved process, the hope is that it's going to be less widespread right. Okay, understood.

A

I mean that's gonna, be a fascinating experiment to watch out yeah cool, okay.

A

So so how? How does the? How do you create the randomness in the current block, just.

A

The block reserves are so random, so randomness over a particular block. Yeah.

B

He's a vrf yeah of the block proposer over me. I see that by.

B

By the randomness of the previous book- oh so, basically you're using weber, blah.

A

Pupusa shows up what doesn't show up yeah so that yeah, so that's been things.

B

So the blog proposer can choose not to produce okay, so that's assume that we.

A

Have like really good latency around the world and every blog proposal shows up.

A

Yeah doesn't mean you can predict what will be the random number. You know what.

B

You could, but how do you executive, erf? Oh because it's it's? Okay! It's like yeah,.

A

Nobody else, can I see. Okay and the error comes with the proof immediately. So you.

B

Submit the output of the vrf and the proof right away: okay- and it's not a.

A

Ristretto based vrf or something else it is, you start to baste, okay, okay, so it is.

B

So we are using this tattoo today, okay and they actually random, is become. We. We.

B

Have like some smart ideas, but we ended up just building right. What what.

B

Definity does so it effectively. The way it works is in the in the epoch that.

B

Receives the epoch, where you need to j2 to where you are a blog producer, you run.

B

A g/kg right which we just make it synchronous so in the first. So what.

B

Happens is in the first like 10% of the epoch, roughly speaking,.

B

Everybody can it's the polynomial of degree, k minus 1 right. What k minus k is.

B

50%, not two-thirds in definity, everybody can use wk minus 1 yeah and they reveal.

B

The the generator ^ every of a or some k points, and then they send encrypted.

B

Private shares to every participant, and then we spent 90% of the book with the.

B

Participant can say you know what what you set me does not correspond to the to.

B

The committed one and so the the revealed the revealed share so the.

B

Property is that if you have a polynomial of degree, k, minus 1 and then.

B

If you, if you raise a generator to the to the to each element of the of the.

B

Polynomial again right by knowing any k of them, you can also interpolate the.

B

Remaining ones right so that property remains so by generator. Do you mean some.

A

Sort of seed that you can generate points so like every so every.

B

Participant I generates a polynomial p. I of.

B

Right right, and so what they publish is they published g to the power p I of x.

B

For some key points, and so oh and g is like some sort of yeah yeah.

B

At the point or or it could be a pls point all right if we did you'd be a.

B

Less correct and so wait, so he commits to the coefficients of p. I.

A

Yeah yeah effectively, but the beauty is that, if this, if this is a plan, all right.

B

Then, knowing any k minus one sorry any k you can derive others that property.

B

Remains mm-hmm, so many of me, maybe for people who are into cryptography that's.

B

Obvious for me, that's a right that was something new right, and so then you also.

B

Publish encrypted version, so you encrypt p, I of x, with the public key of the.

B

Participant so you would say this is j with the participant j, so this was also.

B

Broadcasted this is public right together, together with with the.

B

Commitment right and so every participant now can come and say this is.

B

The proof that this is not the encryption like you can get a.

B

Graphically prove that this does not crisp on to the same p ix. That is, that.

D

Is used in the in there right, and so you get 90 percent of the epoch, but it is.

B

Synchronous! Okay, in a sense that, if you do not show up- and you do not provide.

B

The proof, then, you cannot participate, can take next epoch and the randomness.

B

Become you can still do everything else, okay right! So so you can. You can choose.

B

If you messed up- and you didn't show up and you didn't challenge it and you.

B

Don't have your private share, you can still do approval validate blocks, you know, do all other duties, you just cannot participate in the beacon and the.

B

Assumption is that, after the d key g mm-hm, if there are committed polynomials, which are not challenged, then at least k.

B

People at least 50% of people actually have verified their shares and would.

B

Have challenged during the epoch and so in the next epoch? What happens is that.

B

If we do have, can we do not challenge polynomials, then we use this, and if you.

B

Don't and then then we resort back to to the vgf sorry they are f. Okay, right.

A

Aha, I see okay yeah, so you have a fullback and also another thing which is.

B

That so, let's call I'm throwing the next epoch. We just use standard random as.

B

Become the definity users right because you have this plane: the random-ass output. Alright, when you have like a block and you just h what.

B

You do is yeah you just interpolate, you. Can you just compute h to the power move, so everybody adds up their plea. Nominals.

B

Right so that gives my t of x and you just compute h to the pure, zero okay.

B

Nobody knows p of 0 right, ok, but even even more to that in so diffusing h here.

B

We use this thing right, randomness of the previous block, so like the g via.

B

Wrap that is published in the previous block, and so what it gives you is that.

B

Even if someone did break like if someone did manage to get access of 50%.

B

Of the of the fares, and they can completely predict the output of the.

B

Night of the day of the of this random has become right. They still only have.

B

One bit of influence because they still can only produce or not block or not.

C

Produce right so it has all the properties of the underlying randomness.

B

Of the seeds right- yeah, ok, I see, but in the good case you get you get completely.

B

Unbiased one particular randomness, unless someone has 50% of shares and.

B

Assuming the dicky jig didn't didn't break. Ok, that's very interesting because.

A

I remember maybe, roughly a year ago you were telling me that you know definitey.

A

Is all great and all, but the one problem is the dkg. It might be impossible right.

A

It might be too hard to to deploy it in practice. So you've gone down the dkg.

A

Route but it sounds like you've made some changes right so effectively. We.

B

Just said well, where key would see, because if you do, if you're not ok with.

B

Synchronous network assumption that becomes way more complex, right, right and.

B

So you can, I think you can put it really created ekg, in which 30% of people can.

B

Can predict about 60% like you can parameterize it right such a way that.

B

You need 30% to break lab is 30% to break to make it predictable.

B

While with the synchronous network assumption, if you, if you make the.

B

Threshold 66%, you need 30% to break loudness 66% to break right there and.

B

Then we can push up to 50% because because we wanted to work, we want.

B

Lightness to it to me to remain with 50% right, yeah, okay, so you basically you.

A

Have stronger assumptions which makes the construction simpler.

B

Yes, and so like a year ago, if someone told me like, let you think network.

B

Assumption, I would say, I'm crazy rather than like in practice. If you think about it, it's actually very meaningful to assume that during half a day, mm-hmm.

B

Right, everybody will have at least one opportunity to show up and validate.

B

Their share right and like the argument here that if, during the previous half a.

B

Day at no point you were able to to show up and validate your share. Mm-Hmm.

B

Then, probably also not going to be very live in the next epoch and so answer you.

B

Right you sort of write a fine anyway, like you can be considerate of line and.

A

One thing I'm interested in is: let's see gasps gasps schedule yeah so in in if to.

A

Where we're looking at something called a vip, 155, nine mm-hmm- and you know, as.

A

You described it once it's like this exponential moving average and you know.

A

We basically have this this base fee that that gets burned, and then we also.

A

Have these variable size blocks yeah, so you know we're trying to fix some of the.

A

Problems of gas, what is your thinking around gas? I think we use something.

B

Almost identical okay in the sense that they think if it's happen, okay, boy and.

B

Correct me, if I'm saying something wrong, if the block is more than how full we.

B

Increase the price: if it doesn't helpful, we decrease something: that's right: yeah, yeah, okay, very similar, okay cool! Well, that's a nice like kind of confirmation.

A

There, where we might be on the on the right, half okay, one question I have is.

A

Regarding the committee size, so you mentioned there's let's say 200.

A

Validators and eight shards and each slot gets basically a sense, not quite so.

B

What happens is- and I think this is this- is where we're more like polka-dot.

B

School than etherium school right, so in our case so there's a total of 200.

B

Yes and let's say every five of them so like they split into groups of five and.

B

Each five, whether they are assigned to some five shirts, that's assuming like.

B

These hundred shots, if there's a charge, it's less interesting to analyze, right.

B

But let's say these hundred shirts, these, like hundred book producers and and.

B

There's some bipartite matching: it's not quite bipartite matching but let's say.

B

First, 500 producers are assigned to the first five shirts and then blood.

B

Producers from ten to fifteen are sent like two shorts were saying. The.

A

Community size is five, yes, chemita size is very small, and, and so every person.

B

Who is a cycler? I didn't load the stage right, so if you everybody has fire state.

B

Of five shirts and and so there, and so therefore they just they just take- turns.

B

Between five of them to produce chunks right and that committee is not even.

B

Technically, a committee, because when you produce a chunk, the remaining four don't.

B

Have to sign on it right so doing a meeting you you alone are attesting to.

B

The validity of it and what happens next is the person who produces blocks. They.

B

Obviously, have no insight into the validity of chunks. Oh.

B

For all they know, I have a header and the header kinda looks, looks legit like.

B

Hashes hashes check out signatures check out, so they included okay, so they're.

A

Really like proposal committees, more yeah, okay, yeah, so what happens next is.

B

One thing which we use that'sthat's again polka dot thingy, is that when you.

B

Produce a chunk, so let's say: let's like throw this like: this is 200 people right.

B

And so these people are close, walk across all the shirts. So when the.

B

Particular person like say this guy when he when he proposes a chunk, what they do.

B

Is they they compute an erasure code of the chunk mm-hmm, which in our case, let's.

B

Say so for theoretical guarantees it needs to be 6x big, so for something that.

B

Is one mag you only six meg's, but we in practice we use less than that because.

B

In practice, the practice is to kind of break it, but you cannot theoretically.

B

Prove them that it's unbreakable right! So what is your block size? Well, your.

A

Chunk size, as you say, so, your racial coding is at the chunk level right. What.

B

Is on the chunk level yeah, so it's based on the gas and I should have no idea.

B

What the sizes.

B

But there's also some gasolina trade yeah, so circuit see yeah, okay. So let's.

A

See one thousand transactions. Let's say that's about two hundred kilobytes. Yes, a.

A

Yeah, okay and then you have, let's did you say, 6x, oh yeah, just like okay, one.

A

Megabyte yeah one megabyte yeah, okay. So what you do then is you send those but.

B

But then one megabyte every second we're talking about it. So we'll let you go.

A

Right, that's very ambitious! Well, although that can be fine-tuned right.

B

Right yeah like that that can be decreased right right if we, if we can, if.

B

We can produce smaller blogs, but still every second wait. We will go that route.

B

Other blocks less frequently mm-hm because like for as long as nitrogen out.

B

You gadget finalizes them right the biggest concern of short block times.

B

Disappears right, the biggest concern usually, is that it affects like in.

B

Proof-Of-Work, for example, if you make it too short, then that verse you could who.

B

Does not have for fulness right, they have advantage right, but if you have, if.

B

You have a pfg finality on the block that sort of not as big of a concern. I.

A

Mean you could have centralization on the proposing centralization on the.

B

Proposing okay, so let's finish that I can think about it. But what you do is.

B

Well, let's ambitiously say it is one megabyte raid, so it is one one megabyte.

B

After you, your razor coded it right, so it is split into small parts. Exactly to.

B

It so, let's say for now for simplicity, exactly 200 of them, as even with this.

B

Committee size and definitely with biggers, it would be a sample of a block.

B

Registers, not not all of them, but for some, please don't say it's all of them, and so you send one part at every blow, proposer yeah and they don't need to.

B

Confirm it in any way, besides that, if they attest to the block, it means that.

A

This means that they have one little part for every chunk that the block has.

B

Right, and so that means that if the block has 50% attestations, that means.

B

That 50% of people write a test to the record. They have their little parts of.

B

The blocks right well, then, why the 6x is that if you.

B

Assume that this less than 30% of people who for some reason, lie to you, then you.

B

Have that 162 to recover right and like how do you prove that you.

A

Know every are that they don't know like atomistic. We say. Oh, oh, this thing is.

B

More closed right, so this is a miracle root of this particular of these little.

B

Parts right after this merkel, local hash, mm-hmm hi, isn't the chunk header? Yes, fhi.

B

First naturally depends on it now yeah, so the block has depends on it and what.

B

If and save someone then loads, the whole chunk yeah and they encoded and arrived.

B

To a different workers route, that's that's a challenge, that's enemy! That's a.

B

Special behavior right and effective what happens is that what can go wrong.

B

Here are is right, so one thing is that you can send something which is not so.

B

Another thing you can do is you can compute an incorrect erasure code coding.

B

And compute the more code, oh yeah, so if it's incorrect, eraser coding, then the.

B

Merkel route will not match right right when someone d encodes it if it's. If.

B

It's completely irrecoverable yeah. Then then, it's also easy to show like, like I.

C

Said show I will show the sufficient number of parts we routin. Everybody will.

B

See it's recoverable and- and they cannot send something that doesn't correspond.

B

To the morocco's route at all, okay, so here's one thing: I'm worried.

A

About that, so basically you have the the the the chunk proposes. Let's say he.

A

Creates garbage in major codes, he sends them all off. Yeah.

A

And this this specific chunk goes in the block and then you get the financing.

A

Gadget, you know which happens in two seconds, because each block is one second long and that's not enough time for someone to both kind of reconstruct.

A

Everything detect that it's wrong and you submit something unchanged yeah so.

A

Does it mean that you might have to revert to find out it? Yes, sir analogy so.

B

If it finality is a little tricky in this case and that's something that we're very upfront with people when they can, I like, if we talk to someone who.

B

Potentially, might integrate with me we're very clear that you either have to.

B

Run all shorts locally, not necessarily the same machine. It.

B

Could be on multiple machines, but if you locally run all the shirts, then finality.

B

Is final for you, because you know that change is not coming right or.

D

Alternatively, you need you need to have. Alternatively, the concept of finality.

B

For you is yes, it is finalized by nmg, but also sufficient time has passed that.

B

You certain and now that the challenge, if it if it was existent, would have come.

B

True right, so I change you: can you actually have all the shirts right well.

B

You phenolic is actually, but how does it work? Ok, so I understand penalty from the.

A

20 of view of the user yeah, you can have these extra checks. Yeah everybody.

A

Waiting more or by downloading or change yourself. But what about from the point.

A

Of view of the chain and and it proposes because presumably they would suddenly.

A

Have to move to a different chain, and do like you know right so it is, it is.

B

Actually, especially with a single chain, it's actually pretty simple right, so it.

B

So imagine like you're building a chain and then suddenly, sometime later it was.

B

It was, it was proven that this block has an invalid chunk right. Well, it's very.

B

Simple you just local, you just say this blocks are invalid. This is my tip and.

B

You continue operating and will you just continue working here just ignoring, but.

B

Now existed so that was initial time, but that's actually very hard to do. Ok was.

B

It's way harder to on implementation level, so implementation level. It's way.

B

Easier to continue like this, so the higher the height will continue from.

B

Here it's gonna be the next kite, but this is the parent. It has some.

B

Complications because now the finality gadget and dooms like need to be aware.

B

Of the, because, if the finality right is the dose, I have no idea that walks can.

B

Be challenged, then this is indistinguishable from actually someone working out right that they should cost rational, behavior right. So the way the.

B

Slope is what, without details of phonology gadget and don't like it's not.

B

That easy to say, but if actually would like finality guided, for example, has a.

B

Concept of a score, which needs to be strictly like increasing in certain.

B

Cases- and we just think that if there is a challenge book right, then the score.

B

You can effectively say this core of the. You can include this core of the block.

B

We're presenting a challenge block which has higher score, which will install the.

B

Finality gadget, okay, so phonology gadget will be dysfunctional here, but we will.

B

Be able to to restarted here by proving that this court has to be.

B

Higher because there's a challenge of look with the higher score. Okay, I mean.

A

It will be interesting to see how this kind of finality get. It will get.

A

Integrated in the system like cosmos, right because in cosmos, you know you.

A

Have a weak verifier that won't do some of the things that a user can do and.

A

Also kind of cosmos tries to rely on kind of really strong finality, but you.

A

Have kind of but-but-but so so these are so we already have an athenian bridge.

B

Which has exactly the same problem right athenian bridge needs to know the latest block. So the argument here is the following: that, first of all, the.

B

Challenges, presumably, should propagate relatively fast. You know in the sense.

B

That, because of the data availability, you should be able to download the chunk.

B

No slower than any valid chunk and valid chunks. You like on the normal.

B

Circumstances right under normal conditions, you don't load chunk between.

B

Every two blocks, because that's that's, that's how you operate right, and so the unloading should not take more than one block time preparing the.

B

Challenge and like distributing it could take some time because it's pretty large today we don't use small challenges. We use like the size of the challenge, is.

B

Proportional to the size of the chunk but like it should not take more than you know like like, let's say, 20 blocks or stuff like that right in practice and.

B

So if it was charged off the 20 blocks, then this chain will stop. It will stop.

B

Growing, it cannot grow any more because, although can you like that, and so what.

B

Happens is that effectively if you're saying my finality is I see a final look.

B

And they see another block which has its in the ancestry, which is like hundred.

B

Hundred kyser beyond right, then this is final, because that block would not have.

B

Been created if this block was challenged, I see so cosmos can do that.

A

Example: yeah right: okay, okay, that's one option, so it on a thin bridge. We just.

B

Ignore challenges for now, but so one thing I'm very interested in is state.

A

Mm-Hm, so in if two, we kind of have the stateless client model yeah, and so my.

A

Question is like: do you have statelessness and like how large do you.

A

Imagine the state will become per. How do you call it to purse? Let's go chart its.

A

Sure sure, okay, so I shot yeah yeah. So it's hard to estimate how big the say.

B

The state will be but state trent is built in engineer. You have stations, wow.

A

Hey trent and we have some sort of statement. What was built not by me, so I.

B

Don't know all the all the answers but like we have sound solutions for all the.

B

Well known problems right so, for example, like the account can be deleted. But when.

B

You want to chip in so with state trancelike. Lin. Ok, can they restore the.

B

Account if it, but they can't just dice okay.

B

I can't just dice if you don't pay. Okay account just does. If you don't pay and.

A

That will be, I don't you have stake. Is it is there today yeah like today? If you.

B

Create an account engineer: okay and I'm gonna pay for a while. It dies. Okay, so.

A

You're trying to bound the state because what I'm worried about is you know the.

A

The proposers they're gonna be shuffled from one shot to another and they might.

A

Need some time to sync right so yeah, but they have half a day for that, because.

B

You know the shuffling happens, one epoch in advance. Oh you know the shirts and so.

B

You don't loading the state so the way it works is so select. Let's say this is.

B

The previous e-book right- and this is the book in which you use supposed to.

B

Validate so the shuffling happens at this point, so this point you know.

B

Everybody could be validating in this ebook after you immediately. You know the.

B

Short assignments, so you have half a day to the load, the state and then there are.

B

Like some implementation details here, which is once you download at the state, you need to start deploying block applying blocks because state at this point is different from state at this point right, so what happens? Is you don't.

B

Load, the state once you got here right it is this process called catching up.

B

Right now, where you apply all these blocks for these shards and then for every block, after that, you just apply current charts and the next shirts. So.

B

What you already know what you validate next time? Okay! So if an incorrect.

A

Like half a day in advance, you will know these five shots that you need to sync.

A

Up, okay and okay and this state could be, let's say: I know, 10 gigabyte per shot.

A

That's 50, gigabytes down or half a day, maybe possibly doable.

D

Yeah, okay and yeah, yep, okay cool, but other than that, like the.

B

Biggest problem in state which, like I would love to solve what we have no.

B

Solution: today's that updating miracle trees is very expensive right, like if we.

B

Can get get rid of merkle trees? We will easily like 5x the number of.

B

Transactions we can process, but today today we cannot get rid of them. We don't.

B

Have a good solution for that I mean one kind. Beautiful solution is like merkle.

A

Tree asic, yeah sure or like even like running them properly on multiple course.

B

It's not something that commonly is commonly done today, not something else.

B

Interesting work, state, yeah, okay, so one thing that you guys innovated on is like.

A

Guaranteed execution, can you talk about right, so so the way it works is so when.

B

You have, let me erase something.

B

Guaranteed execution is a little bit stronger word. It's it's going to dc.

B

Delivery, so you should will be delivered, but then later it can get for various.

B

Reasons the most obvious you might, you might not have enough gas to execute.

B

Excited to it will get new it, but it will be delivered. It will not get lost.

B

On the way- and you don't have to sort of monitor it, so the way it works is I, when.

B

You create a chunk, so, first of all, I think what is important to notice is.

B

That the the chunk contains the state route as of before transactions in the.

B

Chunk are applied, okay, not as if, after right, I don't remember how it is done in.

B

The theorem, but after yeah, so what what it allows you to do is that if you do.

B

After then, you have transaction execution serialize twice because for you to create a block you need to like, let's.

B

Say these only alice and bob there's only two block producers, and then they take turns getting blocks right. So alice just created the block mm-hm.

B

And before to create a blocks, execute all the transactions in the blog, because.

B

She needed the post statehood right before she even sent the block to bob.

B

Bob received the block I mean at the very least she alice wants to know. If.

A

She's gonna get paid, you know a decent amount of fees, for example. What feels it.

B

Should be the it should be the fact that, when you're included transaction, you should be able to estimate the fee heuristic we may be heuristic. We yeah.

B

But also because fees are paid at the end split equally split equally between.

B

The block like it doesn't matter whether you include the transaction or someone.

B

Else it gets. Oh so you mean this committee of five.

A

Variables 100, at the end of the day, all the hundred gets paid more or less.

B

Equally, at the end of so, what's the advantage for me to show up even as a.

A

Proposer well proportional to your participation.

B

You still need to participate. Oh, oh, very interesting, yeah, okay,.

B

And so then bob they receive the block, and the first thing they need to do is.

B

To apply these transactions because the they need to validate them right right.

B

Right and so after that they they produce their block counting it around.

B

Their transaction right, and so you can see that the transactions they get.

B

Serially executed twice from the from every block right so that that's that's.

B

Unfortunate and so instead, I think it's preaching woman now to include pre state.

B

Food right in the chunk right, so you know pre state who else is doing that. I.

A

Think me, I think many people do. I actually don't want to say name and be.

B

Wrong but but I think it's at least like if you read papers it like oh flow flow.

B

For sure does that okay, there's, like the big thing that they.

B

Saying, okay, and so so, instead of include the pre state route and pre state would.

B

Complicate it a little bit with the post, a true that would have been easier, but.

B

What the way it works now that so this is alice and bob in one chart, and this.

B

Carol and dave in another shirt so when alice produces the block already, the.

B

Chunk for height, so let's say this is two consecutive right: seven, an eight and.

B

For simplicity, let's say hi skipped and all the chunks are produced when ellis produces the chunk for height 7. Remember she like kate, those little.

B

Parts like the eraser coating shares with adam parts. For some reason, it.

B

Should be cool should call them shares, so she sends the part to everybody.

B

Including carolyn dave and as she does that action all which hurts carolyn, they.

B

Validate she also sends them three seats, but the receipt she sends them wait, but.

B

She didn't do execution exactly so. The history sends them are the receipts as.

B

Of applying the previous check right, so there was a chunk before at height six.

B

Right and so l is before producing chunk seven, she executed chunk six right right.

B

Right and so chunk, seven now chunk only contains to two things in the body. It's.

B

The transactions that included, and they see it as of executing the previous.

B

Chunk, why do you need communicate with seeds? Why do we need also that what we.

B

Definitely get that that's you you'll crush out communication. Yes, exactly.

B

Right and so the trunk contains transactions and ec3 seeds have norco.

B

True right, which again so now, and so the merkel proof of the.

B

Seeds is done in an interesting way, so this is all the outgoing receipt. How.

B

They sorted by the short id, the the destinations are dj right and so with.

B

The nature are demoralized and then they merkel eyes combined mm-hmm. So when I.

B

Send thee seeds to the dylan or whomever is d y. ah I sent him the entirety of his.

B

Of his portion with the with the apple with a proportion of the morkul proof, he.

B

Doesn't need the lower, but in the future you can prove an occlusion of any.

B

Receipt using the whole tree, and so at this point I by the time deal dylan or.

B

Dave produces for height eight, they have the seeds as of six, so it might feel.

B

That there is a coup blocks delay, but actually there is none, so so they will.

B

Include so they will know this receipts for six right, ah but the cool thing is.

B

That think about this for dylan to even create a chunk of hide.

B

8 to create a chunk of height, 8 dylan needs to read to have the block at.

B

Height 7 right when the dylan accepts the look at hit 7 and then they produce.

B

The check the chunk of hide 8 and the condition, if you remember the condition.

B

To receive the block is to say, I have my little part for every check included.

B

Right, which include, which includes the part for 7 right so the moment dylan.

B

Accepts the block at height 7, they have their part at 7, and so therefore they.

B

Have all the incoming receipts, and so when they execute their chunk at height,.

B

7 mmm they have all the income in your seats. Ok, ok! But ok! So you have you. Don't.

A

Have guaranteed execution because you have this queueing and then you might.

A

Even like just remove things from the queue if it becomes unmanageable, so we.

B

Will still fail the transaction it just the failing failing the transaction cost.

B

Very little so you can like this is the cute. The cue balls defeating way faster.

B

I see ok, but even for the guaranteed delivery, which is a compare equal.

A

Property, what if everyone sends receipts to one shot, then now this one shot you.

A

Know they need to download so much more data right yeah, so so they so that's.

B

That's a problem, so what will happen eventually? Is that so what will happen.

B

In practice is that our dylan he's supposed to produce a chunk and people.

B

Sent him the the one part as of that block and there's so much network, that.

B

He doesn't even manage to then load all of them right before producing the next.

B

Block so he skips the bit same happens to carol. Yeah happens to you happens to.

B

Carol finally, given them loaded them, so he produces the chunk danced all of them.

B

To the storage yeah and you do not, you do not really include the three seeds.

B

Into the into the parts, so so whoever will validate like carol and other guys.

B

But they're on the same schedule right so so they will mm-hmm.

B

They will catch up, so that's sort of unfortunate yeah. Well, it only happens if.

B

Literally, every shard is boarding dylan, but but also like, if you think about it,.

B

Obviously, on from the network perspective, the.

B

Number of visits we sending is not is not we configuring it.

B

So that it's not the bottleneck, we don't want you to be practical at capacity on.

B

The network, in terms of how much you receive so even if this problem will.

A

Just keep on getting bigger, as you add, more shots right with marshall. First, yes,.

B

And so once we try to scale way beyond so with hundred charlotte's already.

B

Quite a bit of a problem, but not yet as terrible, because it doesn't mean it will.

B

Take your hundred blocks doesn't load three seats right. It will take less because because it's not the bottleneck right but like if we want to go two.

B

Thousand charge that becomes infeasible at that point. We need some other techniques where we're going to like the most natural one, but it's a chi level.

B

Idea obvious it has many issues is that these are. This is a limit to how much a.

B

Particular short code could sent a specific chart in one block time, so it's.

B

Not so right now effectively analysis analysis chart every transaction can.

B

Generate a receipt to give rise, and then we say well, you can only have include.

B

That many right, at which point the rest, will will like get r acute, for example,.

A

Okay, so you can mitigate the impact, occur in more shots, yeah, okay, but that.

B

Has many problems, for example, if you recued, if you like, let's say let's say.

B

Because ellis wants to produce as a block, she doesn't know which races will be created yeah. So she cannot not include the transaction that generates a.

B

Seed, so when the block is executed, once you hit the capacity you need to do.

B

Something with the remaining transactions right, so most likely will just riku them, like put them into the queue weekly. The same way you do today.

B

With receipts yeah, but then the problem is that when, when those transactions.

B

Come back to the next block again have like large percentage of them will get.

B

To the q, so that's quadratic, that's that's like that's. Not that's! Not a.

B

Viable solution right, it's just like a high level, one high-level idea how it.

B

Could be done with a bigger number of shorts, but that's an open problem right.

B

With hr that obviously works mm-hmm, so one of the things that you guys have.

A

Innovated on, and you kind of drew a diagram at one point is like you have.

A

The state and then, instead of being kind of nicely partitions regularly, you kind.

A

Of is more dynamic like this. Can you talk about this a bit more, so, first of.

B

All this is not built, it's not built so today it's static, but the idea would be.

B

That as the chars execute transactions, you can monitor.

B

Which shirt is more busier than others yeah and then at that point you can you.

B

Can start shifting the the boundaries they still going to be contiguous chunks.

B

Right so, if there's a particular contract, which is disproportionately.

B

Large then, at the very best case, right yeah, yeah yeah, it will be in the same.

B

Chart right in the chart on its own, but this is that, is that the way state sync.

B

Works is that when you do state sync, you don't load contiguous parts of the state.

B

With the merkel proof and the merkel wrote, is global right right. You can.

B

Easily compute global merkel will just be moral icing right, yeah merkel, roots.

B

Of the chunks right, so the merkel root is global, and so, with this restarting.

B

It will, it will happen, let's say on the epoch, boundary right, and so when you.

B

Don't load the stage for the next chart, you know the new new boundaries, it's.

B

Actually, it's it's a slight complication, because today you don't load from.

B

Particular person the entire state. Now I just need to be smarting it to say. Oh.

B

And the previous epoch, it was like this right right, so you will say well this part this. This part, I will download from someone who was following this chart.

B

Right and this part, I will download from someone who's going this chart, but the.

B

Rest of the states- sync infrastructure- is already supporting sending any part.

B

Of the global state, with the merkel proof, and so that that doesn't need to.

B

Be changed and other than that is the same as gasp. You know like like you look.

B

At how how busy the chart is, if it's, if it's too busy right, then you start your.

B

Shorting, okay, so and presumably to keep the complexity reasonable. You'd only do.

A

The rebalancing, let's say once a week or once a day or yeah once once per epoch,.

B

Is actually doable because you need to be done louis, taken away right, so it.

B

Doesn't matter if it's going to be like like at that point actually, having is like the same bounteous doesn't give you much okay and then, prior to the.

A

Rebalancing you'd expect you know every shot to have its own gas market with.

A

Some variations, so that's that's a unsolved problem. At this point, we.

B

Debating right now, internally: okay, how exactly it should be done. So what are.

B

The options here well, one option: one option is to have gas market preferred.

B

Which is less unavoidable now? Oh, is it no mostly so.

B

It's an open problem right, but yeah, so gas market porsche art has fewer.

B

Problems but but it has a terrible ux right from perspective of the user, who.

B

Submits a transaction yeah and if you have global gas mark gas price, then obviously these many problems like a congestion one charge will be.

B

Increasing right, the price for everybody, so that is, that is an active, active.

B

Discussion and that's something that can be finding very easily even at the very.

B

Late stage, ok great.

A

So one one of the things that we're going with is wasum. You guys are also.

A

Doing one yeah, can you tell more about that like compiled versus interpreted or.

A

Which engine specifically are you using? Will they and will, will you have wasn't.

A

From day one so yeah we don't have wasn't today.

B

Yeah, so the dm today's wasn't yeah. I think we use like single task compiler.

B

Signifies compiler yeah. Is it the case max yeah we're using single waze mer.

B

Yeah we use yeah. We used wise more today right with a single pass without.

B

Optimizations, it will even more crazily at this particular point. We have.

B

Floating point numbers enabled which non deterministic- maybe they have they have.

B

A particular source of non-determinism, which is nance, and we just plan to to.

B

Mitigate that particular non determinism, which is nance nance yeah, so the problem.

B

Is that what's in the end, and am not a number, the particular problem with.

B

Floats and the source of like according to was inspect the particular source of.

B

Non determinism is that if you have an operation which has two men's and those.

B

Two nance have different representation. Like you add them up, then the output.

B

Will be one of them but which one depends because a compiler can choose to.

B

Optimize edition and answer of the arguments, because addition is commutative but suddenly for dance. Addition is not commutative right right.

B

And so wrong man can become the output right, but then, obviously in a smart.

B

Contract that could that your network diverged your state is one bit different.

B

Yeah yeah, that's all right, but nance can be. You can choose a.

B

Canonical representation from them, and just after every floating-point operation, you can say now, if it's named use a very particular canonical.

B

Representation, it becomes slower. Yes, do check is nan every time. Yes, all.

B

Right every time you touch floating-point numbers. If output is.

B

Floating-Point number, which is, which is no worse, of course, they're completely.

B

Banning floating-point numbers, okay, and there isn't why we enabled floating.

B

Point numbers we had them disabled for a while is that the actual devex is.

B

Terrible because you're constantly accidentally use floating-point numbers.

B

Like you use, because, at the end of the day, you use some of the one of the.

B

Languages which compiles to wasum like assembly, script, arrests, and they have.

B

Floating numbers all over the place, the cache tables in assembly script used to.

B

Be using floating point numbers I, as a developer, didn't do anything wrong right.

B

But suddenly my contract doesn't compile right right, and so we just were just.

B

Taking a half a step further, instead of just banning floating points completely.

B

We specifically solve the the exact problem that that exists, and also so for.

B

Wasn't smart contracts for with our particular bindings? You can do any.

B

Asynchronous calls to any contract in any shard. The way you do that is you.

B

Just say this is the contract. This the same way you doing a theorem, but it's just asynchronous so at every contract hole is a synchronous every. Unless you.

B

Allow this kind of stuff- yes, one more like this kind of stuff right, so factory.

B

What happens is in a smart context? You can say now. I want to call another contract and at least in all these languages languages we support today.

B

There is a concept of a promise right, so it gives you a promise. So, in your code.

B

Alright, your code is actually very readable. You just think I call this contract dot them and then you provide what needs to happen next. On our end, we.

B

Will separate it into two different, whatever wasn't blows, whatever? They are.

B

We will call the first one right schedule: did you see it wait for the.

B

Receipt you see, the back will call the second part, so that is abstracted out so.

A

Doing everything as synchronously that's what different is doing as well. Maybe we.

A

Don't know okay definitively knows right, but but we also.

B

Have this thing which james press, which built for us, oh, which is? We have a.

B

Theorem virtual machine as a smart contract compiled to wasn't deployed on.

B

One of the charts, and so within that virtual machine you can run any vm.

B

Contracts but obviously they they have no like they live in the isolated world.

B

Of a single shirt they they have no concept of course, start communication, because synchronous calls cross, chart kind of don't work, but.

B

Within the particular chart you can have, you can have a dm contracts, training.

B

With with synchronous, calls between themselves and theorem, yeah yeah yeah.

A

Evm as a specific version like like how do you governance on that, like you just.

A

Freeze specific, it's a smart contract. I don't know what exact governance today.

B

For grading that contract, but like any smart contract on here at least there's.

B

Some rules for redeployment, actually, that's a good question, like governance.

A

Like what is what is your thinking here, so we don't have what you don't build.

B

Any formal governance right and the way the way in you sleep will work is that I.

B

Think it will work the same way as with any other chain. Well, we will ship in.

B

Your binary, which has a version right and on the protocol level, everybody can.

B

Vote right for the next version, mm-hmm, and even that might not exist on the.

B

Very first person I'm the very first version. It could be like completely social consensus, so the voting is just signaling or just signaling. Yes, ah well,.

B

To an extent so the way I see it and that might not exist on the first version right with me debating if you want to build it before or after I mean.

B

That but the way I see it is that their approvals in the block, they include the.

B

Version the highest version: you can speak and a debug boundary, the versions.

B

Which can automatically happen if, if, if sufficient percentage of of the block.

B

Producers do speak the new version, okay, yeah, so that that that is all like at.

B

The early stage of how it works, but there is no token vote or anything so it.

B

Is talking low to extent, but it's talking about babe what producers typically saying we want we're ready to use the new one. Aha, but grabblings in.

B

Terms of like who creates the spec, who creates an implementation and the beginning is going to be us. We call it like the the reference maintainer or.

B

Whatnot and if we go rogue people, people can always say like okay, let's not use data, there's any more right. Let's carve pork.

B

Like to say the same thing, governance that has been working for the last, how.

B

Many now eleven writers I mean even bitcoin- has been using this signaling.

A

Mechanism- yes, yes, so 6 signaling, the only question is like do. I want to move.

B

It in now or later actually going back to the awesome stuff.

A

So you said there was these promises mm-hmm like what? How fast did these.

A

Promises return so effectively. Let's say chunks are never skipped so.

B

Every block has all the chunks yeah, so what will happen is on height, 7, ellis.

B

Creates a block which includes the the promise from 6:00 right right on height.

B

721 receives their part, they will already execute on the promise mm-hmm.

B

Right and so so like a fact effectively, so it's like one one slot duration, so.

B

One slot to get to 7 and then one slot to get back to 8 okay. So if everything.

B

Goes very well if there's no congestion and chunks are not skipped, then south.

B

Anything shaded in six will hear back in 8, okay, but then what? What? If you you.

A

Know with reasonably high probability that you know the two contracts are.

A

Gonna be in the same chart: do you get faster than so? Do they know? Okay, so.

A

That's a huge trade-off right. Yes, so it's a trade-off! The I think the biggest.

B

Reason why we did. That is that we don't want people to grind right because, like.

B

What you will end up, having is you will have one smart contract, which everybody.

B

Needs and then they want to be closer, everybody will want to be in that chart right and even with your charging. So without your shorting you're guaranteed to have everybody in the chart because, like I mean the way, is proof of work.

B

It's like meritocracy, it's not it's not a lot of proof of this hundred charts.

B

With the probability 1 percent every time you land in the fraud, you want to.

B

So it takes you 100 attempts to deploy. No, but what I mean is like, if you want.

A

To be extra close so that the probability that you'll be separated is.

A

Very very low: that's what dynamic recording with right now dynamic.

C

Recording yeah, we denied recording, you can get closer and closer, but it's still.

B

It's very undesirable right property, so, instead what happens is that it gives.

B

You a little bit of an advantage to be in the same chart because you you're.

B

Guaranteed to be in the video next chunk when that happens in the same chart, well.

B

Between charts like if the chunk is skipped, okay, still still, you know one.

A

Second is much slower than you know, instant.

B

Yes, yeah so at least at least to date has built this way. Okay. Now the second.

B

Reason for that is that it's easier to implement everything consistently than.

B

Special-Case the same chart, so here's my prediction of how near will evolve is.

A

That there will be like this one mega contract, where you can do internal calls.

A

Synchronously yeah, like evm country yeah and then and then that will be really.

A

Really bigger than and then that will even break the dynamic right stuff and.

A

So you'll have one shot with a very expensive, but if we see that happening.

B

We can react right, like problems will not happen overnight. So how would you.

B

React well at this point. I don't know: okay, okay, but but you should. There are.

B

So many things that can go wrong: yeah we can spend time and- and I just save each.

B

Of them, or we can launch and see what actually can go wrong, yeah and adjust as.

B

We go and then we can learn from your mistakes. Well, yeah the same way, we learn.

B

From mistakes of others right right, but you're, one of the first movers at least.

A

That's one of the goals right: we want to be as early mover as possible. It doesn't.

B

Have to like code mice's already a first mover, you know program from the series.

B

Of block chains that I follow closely right, yeah I mean we can't want to be.

A

Last mover, in the sense that you know we want to, you, know, be the ones that are.

A

Still there in ten years, well, everybody right! That's more of a.

B

Philosophical question whether you want to watch early or late to be to be there.

A

In ten years, so if I recall correctly, one of the things that you really care.

A

About is not only dev x, which you mentioned and passing, but also you a.

A

User experience, so you there's some innovations there. Can you talk about.

A

Those so yeah, so I think what like innovation would be a strong word. Many.

B

Things we do exist in some way or another in the theorem ecosystem to do.

B

They just exist as independent projects, right which not always work very well.

B

Together, but I think over time that will all happen naturally, so there are a few.

B

Things one thing is that we allow so one thing is it's completely agnostic to the.

B

Protocol, it's just something we we have out-of-the-box built, which is. We have.

B

So-Called hosted wallets and a host, and so one of them were hosting ourselves.

B

And the hosted wallet is a way for you to have to start using near without.

B

Having to do anything with the blockchain, so specifically the four.

B

Things we try to avoid is a. We don't want people to understand key pairs. Yes,.

D

Because it's not something that is easy to explain to people. Also people lose.

B

Private keys b, we don't want people to install meta, masks, yeah well, there's two.

B

Things and c we don't want people to to pay to pay like you, don't have to buy.

B

Near before you use something because buying crypto today is extremely complex.

B

Right right, like I, don't know how, in the rest of the world, but here I have to.

B

Send my passport to the exchange, it's insane yes right and so if to buy, equip.

B

The kit I need to send a passport to someone like the drop-off rate would be.

B

Very high, okay, other thing is that at least the first two things are necessary.

B

For you to get the security of the protocol, if you don't have film at a.

B

Mask if you just use a webpage, the the host of the webpage can send you.

B

Whatever code, they want and steal your private key, even if it's in local.

B

Storage, what well, unless it's, maybe an ip fs page or something.

A

Unless right, but someone is hosting at the tfs page, no, because you know you, you.

A

Know, for example, the page could be hosted on an ns domain and then you know.

A

You trust that basically there's like a fixed link yeah to like, but someone I do.

B

Trust right well, but the thing is that is like it's like social trust. At a very.

A

Very high level yeah in the same way that I trust you know the near blockchain right so so the idea here is the following. So the hosted wallet is.

B

This idea, where there's a completely centralized server yeah this case, we run.

B

It yeah, which gives you gateway to all the.

B

Tourists all the applications running on here right and so instead of installing.

B

Metal mask and coming coming up with a key pair, you will open this hosted.

B

Wallet this causes wooden is a different way to authenticate you, so it will be like a logging and password or like something.

B

Along the lines or like the way, we do it. Today's you, you will create an account.

B

And we will store the key locally in the local storage, but we're also gonna store.

B

The key on our end, so one thing we need to cover is: we have.

B

A concept of an access key, so the account is not defined by a single key.

B

Account as defined by a name, the ens is sort of embedded in the system and the.

B

Account can have arbitrary number of keys associated with it, and those keys can have different permissions right and so near keeps a key on each side.

B

Which is sufficient to to initiate their account recovery, and so today, that key.

B

Technically can recover account and use it the way it once, but the way it.

B

Improved, for example, would be that key can initiate the current recovery, which will only happen seven days from that moment, right like argent or something.

A

Yes, yeah, so that's something that exists right, and so what happens now is that.

B

Near has that key that that allows to recover, and so when you use horse of the.

B

Bullet you can provide your phone number or your email, and so you have recovery options. If you do lose your key locally, you can recover it using the means we.

B

Used to, but obviously you completely trust near at this point, at least to a.

B

Very large extent, because, even even if that key has seven day, delay right.

B

Because you're using the near web website, the next time you go to that.

D

Website it just sends you javascript, which extracts the key from the local.

B

Storage sense of ten-year so there's a lot of trusting here right. But if all.

B

You do, is you buy a clickety to which, which is worth 10 cents? That's perfectly.

B

Fine like near will not right, you know, go against you to steal a transcript. The.

B

Kitchen and so what? But because we have access keys and the account isn't.

B

Defined by the key at the moment when you actually have valuable assets at.

B

That point you can, you can create your own account like you're, going to film a.

B

Damask or like whatever the plug in out of the world, you want to use you install.

B

It you create a key which is now local to you. Nobody has access to it and then.

B

The last transaction to you that you trust near to perform right is to bring.

B

That key and remove near key, at which point you have full control over the.

B

Account near has no access to it anymore right and what is, and it's way easier in the theorem. If you need to transfer.

B

Access to the account from one key to another, the only way to do that is to.

B

Create another account and transfer all the assets if some of them are locked or.

B

Not transferable, and then you cannot do that at all right if your key was.

B

Compromised well inferior, you can do the functionality yeah, but but in this case.

B

Because because every account has access keys, you maintain the same account. You.

B

Just change the key, so it simplifies like argent argent, has built argent on.

B

Aetherium, so it is clearly possible right right. What is harder right and.

B

Yeah and then why linear it's very easy to build such a hosted wallet so in.

B

Expectation there's going to near course to the bullet, but there are going to be others right. So, whichever one you trust, you use that to start and.

B

Also, the coastal bullet can choose to pay for your fees, uh-huh, so like right.

A

We have a strong incentive to pay for your fees, because we want people to use.

B

Near right right and you have lots of tokens and yeah, we have. We have tokens.

B

Right so so we have an incentive, but someone else like, for example, it could be application, specific gateway which pays for your keys because they want.

B

They have future value in you like hypothetical key practice, yeah we'll.

B

Build a hosted wallet, they will pay for your fees and usually because, like angie.

C

Over by $10,000 trip the key to covering fees, for you know, okay, so let's talk.

A

About this $10,000 critically, you saying that you can solve the passport problem.

C

Does it mean that you're gonna become like the broker where you're going to.

A

Sell near tokens and you're not gonna ask for passports the expectations that.

B

A I if people get sufficiently bought into some product, but but also this wire.

B

There are others right, so we will. We like the hope, is to integrate for those.

B

People like we don't want to be broker ourselves right, it's completely orthogonal to what we're building right. But what about like? Someone could figure.

B

That out for aetherium, they not attach the particular block channel. As long as.

B

Near torque industry to the same ways that didn't work and from perspective of particular jurisdiction right, their solution will work for any blockchain.

A

Okay, I see so basically you're taking, as you said at the beginning, different.

A

Solutions from a theorem and then putting them all in a central solution.

A

Well, yeah, some of them we will put into central solution and we will try to.

B

Integrate with those who who we cannot replace ourselves yeah, but but the the.

B

Idea is that only on a theorem that to today there are steps towards very good.

B

Ux, but they they far from from converging and they and they just joined.

B

And so we're just saying: well, let's have one combined solution right. It works.

B

Right right, so so I wouldn't say that this is like a huge innovation. It just.

B

In your axis, what innovation? It's just! It's convenient that that matters right.

A

Okay, I mean this- is this few things that I that we could talk about, but is there.

A

Anything in particular that you'd like to highlight before we wrap up no, I.

B

Think I think we covered so much more than I was expecting.

A

Okay, excellent well, thank you so much yeah yeah. Thank you. Thank you for.

B

Participating yeah.