Node.js Diagnostics Working Group, 19 Jun 2019

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From YouTube: Diagnostics WG meeting - June 19 2019

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https://github.com/nodejs/bootstrap/issues/114

A

Okay, so welcome to the node.js community Diagnostics team meeting for June 19th 2019. My guess will follow our standard agenda, although with one addition at the beginning. First of all, and does anybody have any announcements they'd like to make.

A

No okay, I think. The one thing that was worth talking about up front is finding a new chair for the Diagnostics working group. I, don't think Mike, the other Mike is gonna, be able to make it, and you know, I had a bit of a discussion with him. So I'm wondering if you know Peter, if you have any interest or 'jewish, you have any interest in in stepping up to be the chair. Sorry to put you on the spot, but.

B

Sorry I lost my zoom window, yeah.

A

B

What does the chair, the chair right.

A

So, basically, you need to you know, make sure you start the meetings start, the zoom make sure notes get taken open. The pr2 put the notes in and you know, run through the the issues. You often get a little bit more volunteered a little bit more to take on some things that need some chasing or whatever that kind of stuff. The issue itself like we have templates, so they should automatically be generated, so you don't necessarily have to create the issue as long as like there's an entry in the calendar, it will automatically be generated.

A

So it's mostly.

B

You know running the meeting.

A

And then chasing a few more things and.

B

Is the format that we have to chair to person for this job and it's always another community one time one next time, the next one? How does it uh well.

A

We've, you know, usually we have a one chair who you know does every meeting? Okay.

B

A

So I mean that's just the way it's been, there's no reason why I like to people couldn't be co-chairs and alternator's I'm.

B

Just asking because yeah I'm happy I'm happy to take this responsibility, but I won't be able to make to every call right.

A

So, and in those cases, if you know it, it kind of depends if you're gonna make one out of ten that's a problem. If you're gonna be 8 out of 10, then that's fine and for the other ones. Then you just need to find somebody to as a volunteer right.

B

A

So if you, if you're, not yeah I I, you know personally I chair a number of them and II can't make them all. So if you're not gonna make it, you just ask one of the other members. If they can.

B

Okay, I can so can they make it okay, so we'll.

A

Do a couple things we'll need to get you the like, make you a manager of the YouTube account so that you can start the stream as well as access to the the zoom, the community goos and the council send an email with some information on those two to get that started. Okay, okay! um So well! Do you want to take on you want to run us through the agenda today as a? How do you want me to do that? I could go either way.

B

Please do it and I really love sir okay.

A

Sounds good okay, so that was our announcements section. So then, moving on to the issues on the blue tag for the agenda, the first one is async ox. Do not record star, recognizes execution context when processing Venables. So this is number 22 360.

A

Let's see who opened that one I can.

B

Take notes by the way, okay.

A

Sounds good I see a bunch of discussion just trying to see if there's the latest context.

A

C

See even action any.

A

Discussion of anybody who's here right.

A

So this is I, guess it's like! Is there something that say it almost sounded I think from some earlier reading that it's related to something that might need to be done in the JavaScript engine itself.

D

If I recall correctly from reading.

A

D

One yeah this is about whenever you use a library that implements the promise specification from before the language had it. The library uses some sort of venable that it creates on its own and those Venables, if they're chained, into a longer process, they're losing the context or the context doesn't propagate correctly, and the thread ends with a remark from Benjamin about Bluebird, not supporting it, which is kind of tongue-in-cheek and I'm, as not a native speaker, I'm, not really sure how to take it.

D

If it's a little bit sarcastic or if it's just brutally honest and at the same time, I, don't see a conclusion here right.

A

Okay, so thanks for that yeah you did a much better context. Sir. There is a comment that says now: the Bluebird supports async ox. If there's any update to this issue, oh.

D

Yeah, so it's only nine days ago, yeah.

A

Okay, so I guess I'm, not sure, there's anything we can discuss usefully in this meeting. It sounds like it, it would requires fixing blue berg and maybe that's it blue bird and even that, maybe that's gone in so yeah. It looks like they switched from domains.

D

To context- and it should propagate, but that doesn't cover any random venable of which there's thousands out there. So I think the request would need to propagate to the v18 as something to consider when processing the nobles. If a tenable is wrapped into a knighted promise. Is that also the point of this that the context doesn't catch on correctly.

A

A

Mean I think I yeah, that's where I was I, didn't quite have the context to know whether it was something in specific to the Bluebirds promises and then balls or b8 as well.

A

Okay, yeah there was a comment from Matteo saying it needs a fix from the v18 hmm says. Basically, is a path forward. You'll need to raise it with the VA team.

A

So I don't know in terms of the next step on this one I'm, not sure what to say either somebody needs to read and get on top of it or we leave it up for them to push with the v8 team. I think.

C

It doesn't look like we can come up with any action points right now. Yep agreed okay. So, let's move on to the next one.

A

Okay, the seeking feedback 301 on diagnostic reporting tools, so this is 301 and I. Think Jewish you'd open that one I know was sorry right yeah. So this actually I know that Chris wanted to come to this meeting and actually give some feedback on the tool I'm gonna see if I can ping him as a reminder.

A

E

Yeah I guess Chris was expecting this all last week. Probably there is some confusion about the dates.

A

Yeah somehow the entry got it got deleted from the colony.

C

A

Asked me about it last week, so I've just pinged him through internal slack and we'll see if he shows up so I suggest we move on and we'll come back to that yeah.

E

A

Number 298, which is proposal and specs, store flag.

A

So I don't know Peter. If you have any context on this, because I think it was related to some work at that Netflix.

B

Okay, all right I, camping mothers.

A

Yeah, it's worth I mean there's a common five days ago, just another. So there has been discussion back towards I'm, not quite sure why it's tagged for the agenda.

A

So maybe, unless anybody objects, I'll remove it from the agenda and discussion can continue in the in the issue.

A

Okay to 95 so proposal to drive diagnostic workgroup initiatives through user journeys, I.

B

Can talk a little bit about it? Yep sounds.

C

B

Basically, we agreed on the summit at interrupt.

D

But I found the one entry in the previous one that says why this is on an agenda. Concur so right after the label is added. The original poster says three items to the agenda. Consider using Diagnostics report to report WebSocket URL research, reverse connection option more and decide: should it be possible to inspect debug bootstrap code or not. These are the items that they wanted to discuss in the meeting, but that probably needs more people involved anyway.

A

Okay, so is that is that, later down in the issue again or yeah,.

D

It's when you search the page for yeah agenda, you should encourage a comment from May 15, okay, right I,.

A

Think, okay, so we can I guess we really need Alexi to lead that discussion in the meeting. So I'll put the I'll put the tag back on and then, if he's here next time, you can do that. Okay,.

A

So sorry Peter go back. Yes,.

B

So, basically, on the summit, we agreed that there is no blocker on this initiative, uh so I think, and we should call like the use cases from the community I think we have two action items to really do on it's sending out. Probably a survey actually before this meeting I started to take a point on the survey I can I can share. It sounds.

A

B

How can I share this.

A

You hover near the bottom of your screen. There should be like a share in the middle.

B

Actually I'm using Google Docs every day, but this is the Google Form and for some reason it's different: okay, okay, basically I what I put in this form? It has three main sections. The first section is about diagnostic use case, very simple, freeform question, my diagnostic use case or challenge, and what tools do you use for the describe use case to debug it?

B

The second section is more I call it diagnostic long term support. One question is that did you know that noches has support is for diagnostic tools? The next question is: does your company builder integrate nodejs diagnostic tools, and would you prefer better diagnostic API, so tools and the last section is about workload and environment? Basically, what is your work like workload by Web, API side, rendering a so on environment, local machine, continuous server?

B

There's the current state of this form I think we should finalize the form and then we should find channels to be saluting sure.

A

So if you give me if you can create an issue and then have the link to it in there, I think that would be good and then at least one one channel is through the user can like send a survey and foundation.

B

A

Probably others we can come up with, but that's at least one option. Amir.

B

From hook up, the last summit was promised that she can help with the diffusion, because she have really good connections with with industrially their blogs and other channels. So that can be one way. Okay, so I will open an issue. I will speak with Amir and that's that's an action item to move forward and another one is that we she's the first deep dive on a use case.

D

B

Would recommend one that I know that you know already started to work on, for example, the post-mortem one and that kind of things, so we could start with one basically, where we already made some progress. That.

A

B

What's the way to set up a deep dive, open an issue and propose a date yeah.

A

I think that's the best way: okay,.

E

For the Soviet thing, I guess I will have a look at it and provide a detailed review, but at this point, I believe at high level. We could also ask the users about what's the general missing elements, for example, which is the user journey or which is the user story? We're very less diagnostic support is available. Where do they perceive a huge gap in terms of tooling important things like that? I.

B

Don't have much experience with service, so I am open to anyone. Sounds.

A

Good yeah I think we can get enough people looking at it. We'll come up with something pretty good one.

D

Technical question: how do you mean to get those contributions because for a Google Form, there's no collaborative editing with suggestions? So would it be comments in the issue? Probably not edits to the whole thing right, because we can start going different ways with it makes sense.

B

Okay, that's a good point, then I will create the Google Docs and we can collaborate on that. An IV attorney to Google from later. Thank you, yeah.

A

Sounds good any other comments, suggestions on that one before we move on.

A

No okay, so I think the next one for federal, nodejs I. Don't think we have the right people to discuss that one so I'd say suggest we skip.

A

Okay, diagnostic best practices, I think we've probably kind of talked about the next steps on that right. Well,.

E

Diagnostic best practices, we started as a set of best practice documentation that will define the gating principles against different deployment models and symptom types, but with Peters user journeys. The idea is to tie in the best practices, directions and tooling support who emulating from the user journeys everything starting from the user stories and journeys. So I have raised a PR which is 285.

E

That is I believe is the starting point for the best practice documentation. A couple of things: I mean a choice would be. We wait for the user journey of feedback collection and the deep dive everything to be completed, then a best practice documentation as as as a succession or a continuation to that. But given the fact that the crash and the memory and the post-mortem things are anyway found to be quite essential in the field over the years of experience, I can vouch that crash analysis is something which the user base will anyway benefit.

E

So there is no harm in law. You know defining the Condon fairies best practices, so if you or if you can have a look at that and provide your suggestions, I, how that is gonna help me is define the basic layout for the documentation and if we can provide in a feedback on the layout, the structure, the the storylines etc.

E

I can lend the same structure in storyline for other documentation aspect like how do we link it with the user journeys and make it an overall love story is something which we can still handle at a later point in time.

B

Should we add questions to the survey around the best practices and the commentation.

B

C

E

You mean to say the the order or the the structure of the best practice documentation how it should be I.

B

Didn't have anything specific in my mind. I am more like question, making a question that is there any unknown for us and we need to ask the community.

E

What do what would be the question? Is it like? Will you like best practice, documentation or, if you like, a best practice documentation? What should be the layout and structure so.

B

Probably, if you would like best fact is the foundation is not a good question, because I guess everyone would like it.

A

If, in those best practices, we recommend certain things like I think would be interesting to ask questions that were like. Are you aware of Acts, if that's a key part of the best practice right to get a few laughs? Does everybody already know this is what you use or or not so I think we could pull in some information close.

A

You know our what's the level of knowledge I already have and what do they use we're saying use in the best practice and just having us where they say hey. This could get some interesting information. I.

D

Think, based on my really short experience in surveys for a user experience, research way back I recall the principle was to outline a situation and asked for problems they might have instead of asking if they would want a solution.

D

So that's that's one thing we might take into account like ask them: how do they deal with situations where their software crashes or when they happen to have performance issue in production and what sort of doing they're already using or what sort of problems they would need told, and we could also ask one more specific question which is to to give us input on, should we include, mentions of paid tools, or should we focus on giving them the basics to do it in-house without buying an APM of any kind?

D

So I think this is an important question if they want us to also show them how to use paid solutions or would that be considered overstepping or advertising.

A

Yep, those are all good good things.

B

I think it's definitely would be a good signal that everyone uses greatest and we should focus on API. So instead of tools. If people expect that noches by stage tools, then we should focus more on to us. So I'm not sure about I mean the best practices, because that can raise the energy barrier for someone who doesn't have budget to buy the pig cause, but I think it could be a good signal to our focus.

B

D

Attitude when I'm doing that locally, trainings or in community I tend to tell people that there's to it and you can pay for the tool and get support and documentation and you'll be fine, and if you have a minimum viable way to investigate your problem right away without buying anything. This is how you do it.

A

So I think the net is that it's worth looking at the best practices and thinking about whether there's questions we should add to the to the survey which we can do. Is we review what you know the one that you have.

B

You, like the section with the to document its Google Docs, and if someone yes is a question we should ask them can I did sounds good.

E

Yeah, that's all from best practices, so the the PR which I referred is PR number 285. If people can have a look at that and provide any suggestions, that would be good.

A

E

A

Good, so moving on Chris has joined so I think we want to get back to looking at that, but I think we can finish off the last couple. Pretty quick diagnostic working group.