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From YouTube: FAB 16 - Make Things, Make Sense, Make Shifts
Description
Interesting discussion. https://live.fablabs.io/events/make-things-make-sense-make-shifts?instance_index=20210812T210000Z
Listen to Vinay at 1:16:53 - Post-Optimism Perspective.
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A
Side
career
in
in
science.
Writing.
So
I'm
a
research
scientist
but
also
write
science
books
on
the
side,
and
my
previous
book
was
called
the
knowledge
how
to
rebuild
our
world
from
scratch,
which
was
taking
as
a
premise
as
as
the
start
of
a
thought.
Experiment.
A
hypothetical
scenario
of
there's
been
some
kind
of
global
catastrophe.
A
Some
kind
of
apocalypse
event
doomsday
event,
the
sort
of
thing
we
see
in
the
cinema,
but
taking
that
as
an
assumption
that
it's
happened,
that
you've
lost
the
supportive
network
and
infrastructure
that
we
all
just
take
for
granted
nowadays
and
our
modern
industrialized,
cozy
lifestyles
in
the
west
and
in
the
developed
world
and
through
the
the
pages
of
the
book,
therefore
export
the
question:
how
much
do
any
of
us
actually
know
about
the
basics
of
where
things
come
from
the
raw
materials,
the
the
processes
that
they
are
put
through
to
create
the
products
that
rely
upon
the
things
you
pick
up
in
a
supermarket
without
a
second
thought
on
a
saturday
afternoon
and
how
much
fat?
A
Could
you
do
yourself
if
you
ever
had
to?
How
could
you
go
back
to
basics
and
first
principles
to
make
and
do
things
from
scratch
for
yourself
and
how
does
that
network
of
understanding
and
scientific
knowledge
give
you
new
technologies
and
inventions
which
then
themselves
enable
you
to
do
more
things
and
connect
with
each
other?
So
this
is
where
the
the
sort
of
things
I
talk
about
over
links
overlapped
very
nicely
with
my
scenes.
A
Work
on
the
global
village
constructor
set
where
I've
been
taking
a
more
theoretical,
paper-based
approach
for
the
mass
market,
but
for
this
book
and
marcin's
been
putting
his
money
where
his
mouth
isn't
actually
making
these
sort
of
self-sustaining
infrastructure
networks.
A
I
don't
know
if
any
of
the
audience-
and
I
don't
know
where
it
is
because
I've
not
seen
the
link,
but
I
delivered
a
45-minute
talk
going
into
a
lot
of
depth
on
those
sort
of
broad
brush
trek
brush
stroke,
concepts
which
I
don't
think
is
is
perhaps
worth
repeating
now,
but
perhaps
if,
if
that
goes
up
in
the
in
the
chat
box
or
something
I
don't
know
how
that
could
be
made
available.
A
But
that
is
my
background
and
my
interest
in
this
area
of
fabrication
back
to
basics,
fulfillment
and
the
satisfaction
you
get
from
from
making
doing
things
yourself
and
therefore
how
that
links
into
appropriate
technology
into
media
technologies,
helping
developing
nations
and
that
area
of
real
world
applications
of
the
sort
of
knowledge
base
that
we're
talking
about.
B
Excellent,
thank
you
hi
everyone,
I'm
anna
waldman
brown,
I'm.
I
know
some
of
you
marcin.
It's
a
pleasure
to
see
you.
I've
been
following
global
village
construction
set
since
back
in
the
day
and
benign
great
to
see
you
outside
of
a
hacker
camp.
I
will
be
moderating
this
afternoon
or
evening.
C
A
I
I
just
wanted
to
have
a
scenario
set
up
on
page
one,
where
everything
that
we
take
for
granted
can
no
longer
be
taken
for
granted,
so
that
people
sat
in
their
comfy
seats
at
home,
their
sofas
at
home
or
sat
in
a
cafe.
Reading
a
book
have
the
rug
pulled
beneath
their
beneath
their
feet
and
start
asking
thinking
about
themselves,
sort
of
questions
that
you
know
us
community
people
on
this
call
right
now
spend
all
of
their
time.
A
It
is
that
realization,
us
in
the
developed
world
have
an
exceedingly
privileged
and
comfortable
life,
but
is
not
something
we
should
take
for
granted,
because
many
people
don't
live
that
lifestyle
and
indeed
it's
not
beyond
that
the
boundaries
of
possibility
that
that
lifestyle
could
be
taken
away
from
us
in,
as
I
said,
some
kind
of
hollywood
style,
sudden
apocalyptic
event
which
we
watched
on
tv
screens
all
indeed,
what
seems
to
be
more
likely
to
be
a
long,
slow
grinding
decline
under
the
current
climate,
it
will
climax
to
excuse
the
pun
of
global
warming
and
environmental
degradation.
A
E
A
Sure
so
my
actual
research
field
is
in
astrobiology
and
possible
to
life
on
other
planets,
which
is
it's
a
little
bit
different,
but
but
it's
similar
in
the
sense.
It's
very
interdisciplinary
and
I've
in
fact
come
from
a
biological
background,
and
I've
learned
a
lot
of
planetary
science,
geology
physics,
so
robotics
along
the
way
in
my
research
career
and
have
had
conversations
with
people
who
work
at
a
place
like
esa
and
nasa
of
applying
the
overlap
between
those
two
different
interests.
A
If
you
are
trying
to
establish
a
self-sustaining
colony
on
mars,
which
is
something
that
people
like
elon
musk
get
very
very
excited
about,
and
indeed
I
I
think
they
have
a
pretty
solid
argument
in
the
long
term.
It's
something
that
we
would
want
to
do
as
a
species
to
you
know
not
keep
our
likes
and
mom
back
skipping
and
protect
our
long-term
future.
A
How
would
one
go
about
that?
How
does
one
condense
down
to
a
seed,
a
kernel
all
of
the
infrastructure
and
capability
and
machinery
that
you
need
to
support
a
community
of
humans?
Put
it
on
the
point
end
of
a
rocket
and
then
unpack
it
unpack?
Your
suitcase
when
you
arrive
on
mars
and,
of
course
the
challenges
for
doing
that
on
mars
are
great
deal
more
difficult
for
doing
it
in
an
undeveloped
region
of
the
earth,
where
you
can't
even
take
basic
raw
materials
on
mars
for
granted
such
as
air,
you
can
breathe
or
water.
A
You
can
scoop
up
in
a
carpet
and
drink,
so
there
are
real
world
applications
in
that
sense,
although
I
also
can
see
that
that
is
still
pretty
blue
skies
and
out
there
compared
to
much
of
the
work
that
other
people
in
this
on.
This
call
do
such
as
vinnet
who
I
wanted
to
bring
the
conversation,
because
I'm
a
huge
fan-
and
I
know
he
does
a
lot
of
work
in
this
sort
of
area.
H
I
I
mean
I
don't
know:
where
do
we
go
so
vinnie
gupta
got
interested
in
open
hardware
when
I
accidentally
designed
this
thing
called
the
hexayurt,
a
very
simple
open
source
building.
I
We've
done
a
bunch
of
innovation
on
that
platform
over
the
past
20
years,
and
the
reason
the
project
is
still
alive
is
because
when
I
started
it,
I
assumed
it
was
going
to
take
30
years
to
get
to
global
deployable
capacity,
so
planning
over
the
horizon.
That
way
caused
me
to
run
the
project
as
a
hobby,
rather
than
assuming
I
was
going
to
be
able
to
raise
funding
for
it
and.
I
You
know
that
that
framing
kind
of
gives
me
a
particular
kind
of
grim
patience.
You
know
the
world
is
burning
on
pretty
much
the
trajectory
that
I
imagined
30
years
ago.
The
interest
in
doing
something
comprehensive
about
moving.
Hundreds
of
millions
of
people
is
slowly
beginning
to
build
and
unfortunately
we're
on
the
trajectory
where
my
work
might
be
relevant
six
years
ago.
I
basically
ran
out
of
money,
doing
disaster
relief
stuff
and
said
sorry,
I'm
gonna
go
and
get
a
real
job.
I
I
joined
the
ethereum
foundation
and
spent
six
years
since
then
in
the
blockchain
space,
one
of
the
few
people
in
the
space
to
not
get
spectacularly
rich,
because
I
took
legal
advice
a
little
too
early.
I
So
I'm
a
working
engineer.
I
run
a
company,
we're
vc
funded
and
what
we're
doing
is
very
high
resolution
legal
structures
for
tracking
physical
goods,
initially
things
like
fine
art
or
wine,
and
then
eventually
bruce
sterling's
spine
vision,
refined
and
you
know,
made
flesh
so
yeah
that
I
mean
it'll
come
in
useful.
Eventually,
you
know
when
you
start
putting
hundreds
of
millions
of
hex
yards
in
the
field.
You
want
to
be
able
to
track
individual
units
and
figure
out
who
paid
for
them,
so
the
work
will
eventually
come
back
together.
I
You
know
a
technology
base
for
managing
physical
assets
in
an
extremely
austere
environment.
That's
a
useful
thing:
we're
going
to
get
execution
execution
specifications
in
their
executable
specifications,
so
you
can
verify
whether
you've
got
the
necessary
raw
materials
and
the
necessary
tools
to
manufacture
an
object.
You
know
we're
working
towards
things
which
are
useful
again.
Those
things
are
still
probably
years
out.
B
All
right
great
points,
everyone
feel
free
to
type
questions
in
the
chat
or
raise
your
hand.
If
you
hit
reactions,
then
you
can
click
raise
hand,
and
I
can
call
on
you
I'm
curious,
while
we're
waiting
for
a
quiet
audience
for
lewis,
the
I
think,
one
of
the
big
differences
between
restarting
civilization
on
earth
versus
you
know
packing
up
a
kit
that
makes
almost
anything
going
to
mars.
Is
that,
even
if
knowledge
is
so
scattered
across
our
byzantine
supply
chains
network,
we
still
will
be
starting
from
a
lot
of
various
broken
pieces.
B
So
I'm
curious
what
you
think
about
the
difference
between
sort
of
starting
from
scratch
and
starting
from
let's
say,
like
a
broken
apart
infrastructure
network,
whether
that's
you
know
in
an
emerging
market
or
in
downtown
new
york,.
A
Sure
so
you
know,
there's
a
series
of
related
questions,
have
the
the
same
core
at
the
heart,
but
differ
in
the
exact
parameters
or
sort
of
axioms
of
where
you're
starting
from-
and
I
said
for
the
sake
of
what
was
a
mass
market
popular
science
book.
I
went
with
what
I
thought
would
be
quite
zeitgeisty,
and
I
don't
mention
the
z
word.
I
don't
mention
the
zombie
word
anywhere
in
the
book,
but
it's
kind
of
applied
because
that's
the
the
conceptual
touchstone
that
I
think
most
people
can
absorb
and
understand.
A
So
I
I
was
dealing
with
that
project
from
from
a
cold
start
as
it
were.
But
to
address
your
question:
if
we
were
to
be
trying
to
do
this
for
real
on
mars,
it
it
of
course
isn't
a
cold
start,
you're,
not
trying
to
scrabble
and
scavenge
what
you
need
and
a
devastated
wasteland
of
some
kind
of
post-collapse
environment.
You
can
do
it
with
the
infrastructure
that
we
already
have
set
up
in
the
world
today,
but
but
I
said
that
the
similarity
is
still
the
same.
A
It's
trying
to
think
about
what
is
the
sort
of
the
minimum
viable
product
or
the
the
minimum
network
that
you
need,
which
is
self-sustaining
and
self-sufficient
that
can
be
packed
into
a
small
space
and
then
unfold
like
a
local
lotus
flower.
When
you
arrive
and
again
again,
there's
this
popular
touchstone
to
this
sort
of
thing
and
martian
and
andy
ware's
excellent
book,
although
it
needed
a
bit
of
editing
before
for
what
first
came
out
and
then
the
the
film
with
matt
damon
it
it's
dealing
with
it
with
a
similar
idea.
A
There's
there
are
these,
I
think,
with
a
lot
of
an
important
point.
Perhaps
to
make
with
all
of
these
projects
is,
if
you're
trying
to
engage
large
numbers
of
people
to
think
along
these
lines,
it's
to
begin
from
a
foundation
of
what
they
perhaps
already
appreciate
and
understand,
which,
which
is
why
I
go
for
these
cultural
references,
but
yes
for
starting
colony
on
mars.
A
B
Right,
I
loved
the
the
hacking
of
the
abandoned
mars
rovers
in
the
martian
there.
There
was
a
little
bit
of
infrastructure.
There
yeah
great
points
I
see
leopold
has
joined
us.
Do
you
have
a
question
you're
on
video.
F
F
C
C
I
came
to
open
hardware,
maybe
a
decade
ago
now,
at
this
point
I've
been
a
little
bit
involved
in
open
source
software,
but
it
really
became
apparent
to
me
when
I
was
working
in
my
own
lab
just
to
do
solar
cell
research
that
to
build
on
the
work
of
others,
there
was
really
something
behind
kind
of
the
open
source
movement
applied
to
hardware
and
and
for
me
really
it
was
the
reprap
project
that
opened
my
eyes.
C
We've
been
working
on
a
solar-powered
laptop
for
the
developing
world
and
I'd.
Finally,
you
know.
Finally,
as
a
big
professor,
I
got
access
to
a
rapid
prototyper.
I
was
so
excited
because
it
was
the
first
time
you
know
I
used
to
keep
a
little
invention,
notebook
next
to
my
bed
at
night
and
try
to
invent
something.
C
Every
night
before
I
went
to
sleep
and
I
could
finally
make
the
stuff,
but
the
thing
they
didn't
tell
you
at
the
time
was
even
though
you
had
access
to
these
tools,
they
cost
a
small
fortune
and
so
that
little
you
know,
plastic
cover
that
was
going
to
snap
onto
the
back
of
the
laptop
to
make
it
solar
powered
cost
almost
as
much
as
the
laptop
and
more
than
the
solar
cells
and
all
the
electronics.
And
so
this
was
never
going
to
work.
C
And
so
I
was
looking
around
for
how
I
could
do
rapid
prototyping
cheap.
So
you
could
even
think
about
doing
it
in
the
developing
world
and
actually
a
project
from
britain.
The
reprap
project
just
started,
and
I
I
knew
immediately
that
this
was
going
to
be
huge
and
that
I
was
going
to
be
part
of
it
and
I
think
any
engineer
that
hasn't
seen
the
reprap.
You
know
it's
a
3d
printer
that
prints
its
own
components.
C
If
that
doesn't
make
you
salivate,
I
don't
I'm
probably
not
an
actual
engineer,
and
so
my
my
lab
group
kind
of
jumped
into
it
full
score
and
we
started
off
just
by
making
things
as
they
broke,
and
so
the
light
bulb
really
went
off
in
my
head.
This
was
ready
for
showtime
when
I
had
a
filter,
wheel,
change
or
break
in
my
laptop
filter,
wheel,
changer
just
rotates
and
basically
changes
the
color
of
the
intensity
of
light
that
you're
signing
on
a
solar
cell
and
it's
a
very
specialized
component.
C
So
to
get
it
fixed,
it
was
2500
bucks
and
that
was
pretty
pricey
for
something
so
simple.
But
the
bigger
hit
was
that
it
was
going
to
be
weeks
and
weeks
right
at
the
beginning
of
the
summer
that
I'd
wait
to
get
it
ordered,
because
the
hardly
anybody
in
the
world
uses
these
things.
And
so
I
hired
a
high
school
student
to
design.
One
and
openscad
put
it
on
the
wrapper
app
and
he
did
it
in
a
couple
weeks.
C
He
did
it
faster
than
I
could
have
purchased
it
and
the
one
that
he
designed
was
parametric,
and
so
it
not
only
solved
my
problem.
It
solved
everybody's
problem
for
the
rest
of
time.
That
has
anything
to
do
with
filter,
wheel,
changing,
and
so
it
was,
and
it
only
cost
50
bucks,
and
so
it
it
cost
far
far
less.
It
was
a
superior
technical
device
and
it
was
digitally
made
so
that
you
could.
You
know
now
that
the
files
are
shared
and
anybody
that
wants
to
make
fun
of
themselves.
C
You
need
to
know
the
basics
of
arduino,
which
is
an
open
source
electronics
platform
a
little
bit
about
3d
printing,
and
you
can
make
one
yourself,
and
so
that's
when
my
lab
kind
of
went
all
the
way
over
like
we
don't
buy
equipment
anymore.
We
make
it
ourselves,
we
buy
it
from
a
source
of
vendors
so
that
we
have
total
control
of
it
and
that
same
principle
that
we're
using
to
do
kind
of
the
high-end
science
goes
all
the
way
down
to
the
forest
of
the
poor.
C
So
reprap
was
the
first,
but
now
we've
got
lots
and
lots
of
tools,
whether
it's
pcb
mills
or
laser
cutters
that
allow
or
basically
anything
martin
does
that
allow
you
to
make
the
things
for
civilization,
and
I
I
think,
getting
to
kind
of
lewis's
dream
of
you
know
having
the
the
information
that
you
need
to
recreate
civilization,
whether
it's
you
know
right
here
on
earth,
in
a
kind
of
underdeveloped
area
or
after
catastrophe
or
on
mars.
That's
within
our
power
now
and
that
is
coming
on
fast.
C
When
I
started
in
this,
I
was
actually
very
worried
that
my
first
professor
job,
where
I
had
switched
over
open,
open
source
stuff,
I
was
very
concerned.
It
was
going
to
destroy
my
career,
and
so
I,
I
kind
of
you
know
I'm
very
conservative.
So
I
I
did
two
things.
I
did.
The
open
source
stuff-
and
I
kept
the
solar
stuff
going
just
like
make
sure
I
was
always
employable,
but
as
it
turned
out,
my
most
recent
job
is
to
do
open
source
stuff.
I
got
a
raise.
C
I
got
a
really
nice
position,
I'm
chaired
to
do
open
hardware
and
if
there's
anyone
on
here
that
has
any
interest
in
getting
a
phd
in
open
hardware,
I'm
hiring
so
like
this
is
real.
Now
this
is
not
make
believe
you
can
get.
You
can
run
your
whole
life
this
way,
if
you
want
to
because
it's
a
superior
way
to
develop
technology,
I
can
say
you
know
it's.
I've
had
very,
very
smart
students
in
my
lab.
C
We've
made
some
amazing
things,
but
the
truth
is
the
reason
that
we're
productive
and
the
reason
that
we
write
so
many
papers
and
gets
the
technology
rolling
so
fast
is
help
from
outside.
We
get
help
from
all
over
the
place.
People.
I've
never
met
that
comment
on
the
wiki
stuff
that
we
do
on
afropedia
to
people
that
write.
You
know
you
know
code
that
we
then
incorporated
in
our
own
devices.
I
mean.
G
C
D
D
D
Some
new
opportunities
when
we
started
this-
I
started
this
about
a
decade
ago.
In
fact,
in
2004
was
when
open
source
ecology
was
first
formulated
in
my
last
year
of
the
phd
where,
unlike
joshua,
I
I
tried
to
make
myself
unemployable
because
this
world
was
not
for
me,
so
I
moved
out
to
the
middle
of
nowhere.
D
But
at
that
time
you
can
talk
about
like
what
was
the
cost
of
solar
cells
at
that
time.
Maybe,
like
I,
don't
know
four
bucks,
whatever
it
was,
but
right
now
it's
like
10x.
I
mean
just
think
about
what
that
makes
possible.
So,
for
a
long
time
I
thought
about
okay,
hydrogen
too.
You
know
hydrogen
you.
D
Just
like
rap
rap,
3d
printing
is
there.
Nobody
knows
about
it.
I
mean
the
technology
diffuses,
so
only
so
fast
throughout
the
rest
of
civilization.
There's
first
adopters
like
for
us
joshua
others,
you
know,
3d
printing
is
natural
for
many
people,
it's
like
what
that
exists.
Even
so,
technology
doesn't
spread
as
fast
as
you
like,
but
with
the
solar
revolution.
D
Wow
very
few
people
know
that
it's
extremely
feasible
right
now.
You
can
go
off
grid
right
now,
like
this
house
here.
The
cost
of
the
system
that
we're
doing
is
actually
one-tenth
of
what
I
pay
on
a
grid.
It's
1.2
cents
per
kilowatt
hour
right
now.
Okay,.
D
That
further
going
back
to
the
dream,
so
when
I
studied
energy
I
studied
fusion
and
I
got
back
back
into
solar
energy
because
I
thought
fusion
was
too
complicated.
So
I
talk
a
lot
about.
I
wanted
to
get
into
appropriate
technology,
but
right
now.
D
Was
was
like
okay,
cool
but
electricity
to
do
electrolysis
if
you
get
it
from
water.
So
that's
green
hydrogen
very
simple!
There's
plenty
of
water,
absolute
abundance!
You
can
have
dirty
hydrogen
from
fossil
fuels
too.
That's
not
what
we're
talking
about,
but
right
now
with
solar
panels.
If
the
cost.
E
D
Would
it
like,
if
you
can
do
a
system,
that's
about
one
cent
per
kilowatt
hour?
You
won't
read
a
lot
about
that
in
the
mainstream
media.
Let's
say
the
price
may
be
a
little
higher
than
that
number.
Maybe
some
industrial
systems
large-scale
systems
can
attain.
Like
a
one
cent
I
mean
joshua,
you
might.
What
is
the
official
cost
of
pv
on
an
industrial
scale
like?
How
much
can
you
produce
a
kilowatt
hour
for.
C
So
in
india
you
can
get
down
to
a
few
pennies.
Now
in
the
us,
it's
it's
a
little
bit
more
than
that,
maybe
six
or
seven
yeah
and
coming
coming
down,
but
that
you're
right.
The
point
is
it's:
now:
the
lowest
cost
form
of
electricity
and
the
smaller
systems
for
residential
are
higher
than
that.
Like
the
system
on,
my
house
is
maybe
15
cents
per
kilowatt
hour,
but
I
have
to
pay
20
cents,
so
I'm
still
making
money.
C
The
trick,
though,
is
to
do
it
yourself,
just
like
everything
else
that
we're
talking
about
if
you
start
to
manufacture,
say
the
racking
for
yourself.
That's
the
most
expensive
component.
At
this
point
and
like
the
bipv
work
that
that
you
do
martian,
it's
like
bipv
costs
much
more.
Unless
you
do
it
yourself,
and
then
it
costs
less.
D
Right
and
that's
exactly
what
we're
doing
so:
we're
com
combining
a
bit
of
open
source
design.
Do
it
yourself
building
integrated
but
we're
at
for
real
1.2
cents.
So
if
that
is
real,
and
we
can
do
that
and
we
can
scale
that
through
open
source
by
teaching
others
and
disseminating
that
that
that,
for.
D
Makes
hydrogen
feasible
if
you
look
at
okay.
D
D
So
that's
pretty
amazing
and
just
to
say
where
we're
at
right
now
so
right
now
we're
actually
getting
into
building
housing,
low,
cost
housing,
the
cdc
home
project.
You
might
have
seen
that
all
open
source
design,
but
our
next
hit.
I
just
like
to
introduce
that
here
as
one
place
this
not
this
year
or
next
year,
but
perhaps
the
year
after
after
we
do
a
little
bit
of
the
house
work
as
a
replicable
revenue
model
we're
getting
into
the
the.
D
You
can
even
burn
it
in
internal
combustion
engines.
No,
no,
no
fuel
cells
required
keep
that
low
tech
appropriate
and
cause
a
revolution
like
that,
but
only
if
you
were,
if
you
yeah
it's
hard
to
like,
if
I
say
this
to
somebody,
they
kind
of
might
might
roll
their
eyes.
It
is.
I
do
believe
it's
a
real
possibility
here
on
earth
and
anywhere
else
to
get
that
kind
of
low
cost,
and
I
think
that
that
is
where
the
open
source
distributed.
D
Development
distributed,
energy
systems
come
into
place
and,
of
course
the
current
system
is
not
going
to
really
promote
solving
that
question
because
there's
a
lot
of
industrial
inertia.
That's
where
I
think
the
open
source
collaborative
development
really
has
a
a
part
to
continue
developing
the
electrolyzers
storage
systems
and
all
those
things
like
the
myths
around
hydrogen
that
might
explode
and
things
like
that.
Those
things
like
about
storage
and
safety-
that's
that's
all
been
resolved.
That's
been
resolved
for
decades
right
now,
the
price
was
the
only
thing,
that's
killing,
killing
it,
but
yeah.
E
D
C
Okay,
I
think
I
think
you're
right
and
I
think
the
storage
is
slightly
behind
the
pv
technology,
but
for
small
systems,
and
that's
something
that
I
think
you
know
when
we
look
at
you
developing
a
solar
system
in
the
west.
We're
thinking
about
you
know
a
house
with
a
dishwasher
and
that
kind
of
thing-
and
I
I
lived
in
finland
for
a
year
and
nobody
has
dishwashers
there
so
like
it's,
it's
all
very
specific
to
your
location
and
if
you're,
just
looking
to
solar
power,
you
know
your
lights
or
your
computer
or
your
cell
phone.
C
That's
very
doable
and
building
those
systems
is
approachable
to
by
everybody,
lonnie
grafman,
who
is
the
founder
of
after
pd,
and
I
are
just
putting
together
a
free
book
on
the
subject
kind
of
collecting
all
the
things
that
afropedians
have
developed
over
the
last.
You
know
decade
or
more
and
some
of
the
stuff
my
lab
has
put
together
and
it's
this
is.
These
are
systems
that
everybody
can
build
and
certainly
kind
of
within
the
fablab
community.
This
is
baby
stuff,
like
you
guys,
could
do
this.
C
F
E
C
So
it's
it's
really
just
a
matter
of
finding
a
project
and
the
advisor
and
getting
funding
to
match
up.
So
so
right
now,
at
western
I've
got
two
big
lines:
one
is
open
source,
solar,
photovoltaic
development,
and
so
we're
gonna
be
doing
a
lot
of
racking
a
lot
of
systems
design
over
the
next
little
bit
and
then
the
other
one
is
dram,
which
is
stands
for
distributed
recycling
and
out
of
manufacturing.
C
But
the
idea
is
you,
take
plastic
trash
in
your
neighborhood
or
from
your
own
house
grind.
It
up
turn
it
into
feedstock
that
you
then
can
put
into
a
3d
printer
and
that
3d
printing,
whatever
you're
3d
printing,
then
whether
it's
products
for
sale
or
things
that
you
need
for
your
own
home
the
technologies
to
do
all
that.
There's
definitely
change
to
do
that
and
many
people
have
proven
that
it's
physically
possible.
C
What
the
challenge
is,
what
we're
working
on
now
is
to
make
it
easy
enough
that
you
don't
need
a
phd
to
make
it
happen,
and
so
the
probably
the
area
that
I'm
most
excited
about
doing
now
is
coupling
computer
vision
and
ai
to
3d
printing
systems
so
that
they
fix
themselves
during
the
print
because
anyone
that's
used.
One
of
these
knows
that
it's
it's
not
perfect.
Just.
A
C
C
They
want
results
period
and
they
don't
care
how
you
do
it
and
that
when
we
put
in
the
application
and
the
open
source
hardware
was
written
all
over
the
place
and
that
particular
project
is
a
plastic
recycling
project
too,
but
it's
it's
further
out
there.
So
their
goal
is
to
make
waste
plastic
in
the
field
like
you're.
In
the
back
of
a
humvee,
you
throw
it
into
a
black
box
and
out
comes
protein
powder,
and
that
sounds
insane,
but
we
actually
have
proven
every
step
along
the
way.
C
We
haven't
proven
that
it's
not
toxic
protein
yet,
but
it
is
it's
protein
and
and
then
all
the
all
the
tools
to
take
the
plastic
and
break
it
down
we're
making
open
source
hardware
so
we're
using
open
source
bioreactors
hydrocyclones
to
to
get
the
water
out
like
the
whole
thing
that
the
drying
unit
is
a
open
source
vacuum
dryer
that
we've
already
published
so
like
every
in
the
end.
Anyone
that
wants
to
create
a
company
off
of
this
or
to
you
know,
do
it
for
a
completely
non-military
type.
Application
is
more
than
welcome.
C
They
just
wanted
a
solution
in
the
field
so
that
they
could
get
something
useful
out
of
basically
mre
packets,
that
you
know
they
don't
want
to
loader.
They
don't
want
to
carry
them
around,
so
they
can.
They
turn
them
into
something
useful,
and
so
that
funding
is
funding
multiple
phds
to
try
to
make
this
happen
and
that
that
is
that's
pretty
mainstream
like
it's,
not
not
even
radical.
C
So
if
there's
the
we
funding,
nsf
funding,
at
least
in
the
us
in
in
canada,
I'll
be
mostly
looking
at
encirc
and
then
foundations,
and
that
yes.
F
G
Because
I
think
that's
one
of
the
big
problems
in
open
source
hardware
that
a
lot
of
interesting
projects,
but
it's
very
hard
to
find
them,
because
we
are
missing
a
a
good
repository.
G
So
I
think
we
we
need
something
which
they
call
in
germany,
open
air
collapse
with
with
a
shift
in
in
in
on
on
the
focus.
What
what
the
fight
labs
are
doing-
and
I
would
like
to
mention
we-
we
have
some
interesting
flagship
projects
in
austria
like
one
project,
it's
the
vivi
house,
it's
an
an
architecture
project
and
we
have
a
project
with
a
centennial
washing
machine,
and
I
think
it's
very
important
to
to
to
mention
that
almost
everybody
associates.
B
Yeah
great
points,
we
have
a
question
here
from
john
who
pleasure
to
have
you
here
who
has
one
of
the
almost
certainly
one
of
the
world's
largest
distributed
manufacturing
networks,
e-nable
of
prosthetic
hands.
So
he's
wanting
details
about
why
it
might
be
toxic
and
how
presumably
that
chemical
engineering
works.
C
Yeah
yeah,
so
I
actually,
I
just
submitted
the
paper
on
it.
I'd
be
happy
to
send
anybody
a
free
preview,
so
we're
using
hplc
mass
spec
work
to
try
to.
But
the
problem
is,
is
you
have
an
un?
You
have
a
bunch
of
different
microbes
like
a
whole
consortium,
hundreds
probably
we
have
no
idea
what
they
are
and
which
ones
were
responsible
for
which
plastic
we
also
don't
know
what
plastic's
going
in
and
what
contaminants
there
are.
C
So
you
have
just
a
big
mess
and
then
you're
having
a
bigger
mess,
eat
it
and
then
you're
getting
something
out
on
the
other
side.
So
you
have
no
idea
what
that
is,
and
so
the
the
only
way
to
do
this,
like
the
old-fashioned
way,
would
be.
You
would
do
a
bunch
of
lab
rat
studies
with
each
chemical
that
you
found
in
it
and
each
one
of
those
lab
rat
studies
cost
a
million
dollars,
and
you
know
to
give
you
a
feel
for
this.
I
did
it
on
leaf.
C
Extract
from
red
maple
leaves,
which
is
the
most
common
maple
leaf
or
the
most
common
leaf
in
a
tree
in
north
america,
and
there
was
something
like
47
000
chemicals
in
it.
So
you
can
see
how
this
gets
absurdly
ridiculously
expensive,
very
fast,
and
so
what
I'm?
What
we
attempted
to
do
is
to
use
a
completely
open
source
software
tool
chain
to
identify
all
of
the
chemicals
in
this
goo
and
then
compare
it
to
the
european
open
database,
and
from
that
then
we
get
a
number
of
things
and
then
bulls.
C
We
need
to
run
back
through
the
system
to
identify
exactly
what
they
are
and
then
we'll
back
trace
and
see
if
we
can
figure
out,
if
that's
something
we
can
either
eliminate
from
the
food
source
coming
in
or
maybe
we
need
to,
you
know,
cut
out
a
couple
of
microbes,
so
this
is
really
we're.
Just
darpa
is
all
about
next
next,
so
we're
just
starting
but
the
basics
of
the
toxic
analysis.
I've
already
published
about
the
leaf,
and
you
can
use
that
same
protocol
to
do
anything
basically
any
kind
of
non-targeted
oxide
screening.
I
Can
I
ask
a
dumb
question
here:
is
there
any
concern
that
these
microbes
will
figure
out
how
to
like
infect
everybody's
electronics
and
eat
the
plastic
that
runs
civilization
or
do
they
need
specialized
environments
to
survive?
Then.
C
I
I
C
Well,
we
haven't
tested
rubber,
yet
we're
just
focusing
mostly
on
the
most
common
like
polypropylene
et
hdp,
those
types
of
plastics
and
the
the
microbes
that
we're
working
with
right
now
are
all
natural.
C
I
was
like
well
what
happens
if
they
start
out
competing
everything
and
destroy
all
the
natural
bacteria,
but
the
bio
people
on
the
project
assure
me
that
they're,
the
weak
they're,
the
weak
ones
and
they
will
be
destroyed
in
the
natural
environment,
along
with.
C
Right
yeah,
but
it
is
this
is
but
to
me
it's
all
sci-fi
anyway
right,
it's
my
I'm
much
more
of
a
hard
scientist.
The
gooey
stuff
makes
me
uncomfortable.
I
will
be
honest.
E
F
E
C
G
E
I
Hard,
you
know
the
so
we've
got.
I
mean
excerpt
project
probably
has
at
this
point
yeah
10
000
people
that
are
capable
of
building
a
hex
here.
Maybe
it's
5
000
they're
building
a
few
mil.
You
know
a
few
tens
of
thousands
five
ten
thousand
units
a
year,
six
commercial
enterprises
building
them
at
this
point,
but
there's
really
really
minimal
collaboration.
There's
not
much
innovation,
people
have
figured
out
the
desired
works
and
then,
at
that
point
they're
very
reluctant
to
touch
it
so
there's
a
real.
It
was
a
very.
I
Most
of
the
innovation
is
still
driven
by
me
kind
of
getting
people
to
do
stuff.
For
me,
like
hey,
I
think
this
would
be
cool.
If
it
did
this,
could
you
take
a
crack
at
that?
Oh
yeah
sure
I
could
do
that
and
you
know
like
I
basically
have
to
nudge
people
to
get
most
of
that
kind
of
stuff
moving,
and
that's
really
surprising
shouldn't
be
surprising
and
you
see
the
same
thing
with
wikipedia
and
you
see
the
same
thing
with
linux.
I
Enormous
numbers
of
users
very
few
contributors
so
in
a
sense,
that's
a
sign
of
success,
but
I
think
that
we
have
a
certain
notion
of
like
you
know:
if
you've
got
50
users,
you
sort
of
think
you
might
have
half
a
dozen
contributors
and
it's
actually
more
like.
If
you've
got
50
000
users,
you
might
have
200
contributors.
C
I
I
think
you're
right
and
I
marcin
I
think,
you've
hit
on
the
this-
is
the
biggest
challenge
and
possibly
goes
back
to.
What
leopold
was
saying
is
that
we
don't
have
a
good,
open
hardware,
centralized
database
like
I
use
apropedia
all
the
time.
I
find
it
really
good,
but
I
like,
and
I
know
vinnie's
used
it
a
little.
C
Okay
and
and
that
so
that
has
the
potential
to
be
it,
but
I
know
like
from
you
know,
working
with
hundreds
of
students
over
the
years.
If,
if
they're
forced
to
use
a
wiki
in
a
class,
they
will
do
it
for
the
grade.
But
then
the
number
that
stay
on
and
continue
to
contribute
is
depressingly
small
and
I
being
in
it
it's
very
hard
to
see
why
everyone
doesn't
do
this
type
of
work.
It's
fun!
It's
exciting
you're,
trying
to
help
people
you're,
helping
yourself
like.
C
C
You
know
they're
willing
to
take
apart
their
toaster
and
fix
it,
but
the
vast
majority
of
people
aren't
comfortable
doing
that
and
and
that's
where
I
think
education
really
needs
to
get
there.
I
mean
where
everybody
feels
comfortable,
doing
everything
and
right
now
it's
it's
really
pretty
sad
and
it
even
within
the
university,
even
within
engineering.
It's
very
common
to
have
like
a
mechanical
engineer,
not
know
how
basic
electricity
works
or
an
electrical
engineer
like
not
understand
how
like
gears
work.
C
So
it's
we're
all
used
to
being
pigeon-tailed
and
becoming
super
experts,
but
there's
something
to
be
said
for
having
a
little
bit
of
knowledge
and
everything
so
that
you
can
well
john,
has
a
complaint.
Sorry.
J
Well,
it's
not
a!
I.
I
want
to
point
out
that
I
think
there's
a
really
important
insight
in
what
you
two
have
just
commented
on,
and
I
think
we
should
recognize
that
for
for
the
foreseeable
future,
there's
going
to
be
a
relatively
small
number
of
oddballs,
like
present
company
who
thrive
on
this
sort
of
innovative
creative.
J
Let's
try
something
and
make
it
up
and
we're
going
to
be
a
minority,
and
actually
we
sh.
We
will
waste
our
time
if
we
try
to
convert
the
masses
into
the
oddball
state.
So
there
are
two.
So
there
are
two
opportunities
in
that
one.
Is
we
don't
do
such
a
good
job
of
collaborating
with
each
other
either
right?
J
We
don't
have
to
blame
the
other
guys
they
don't
use,
wikipedia
we're
all
working
on
our
own
silos
and
that's
something
that
we
ought
to
address,
and
secondly,
we've
just
recognized
that
there's
a
world
of
people
out
there
who
could
pick
up
and
scale
up
our
solutions
if
we
made
them
available
and
we
should
figure
out
how
to
repackage
what
we
we
have
done.
That
appeals
to
us
in
such
a
way
that
it
is
packaged
not
to
make
us
feel
good,
but
to
make
them
feel
hey.
I
can
do
this.
What
the
hell.
D
J
Well,
yeah
to
the
second
one.
I
do
think
that
writing
documentation
intended
not
for
the
person
who's
writing
it.
But
for
the
people
who
need
to
read
it
is
a
classic
problem.
J
It's
a
very
hard
one
to
get
around,
but
it's
not
rocket
science,
but
you
know
those
of
us
who
are
so
busy
trying
to
do
cruel
stuff,
often
write
the
record
in
order
to
satisfy
ourselves
not
to
satisfy
the
people
who
could
adopt
it.
That,
I
think,
is
a
relatively
well
understood
problem.
B
Yeah,
absolutely
it
reminds
me,
I
was
watching
some
machine
learning
scientists
talking
the
other
day
about
how
one
of
the
big
problems
with
making
ai
explainable
is
that
the
engineers
who
are
trying
to
make
this
ai
tell
them
what
that.
What
it's
actually
doing
are
the
least
equipped
to
know
like
what
the
average
person
wants
to
know
from
this
ai.
And
so,
if
you're,
talking
about
like
a
a
robot,
that's
making
quality
controlled
decisions
in
a
factory
right.
B
It's
not
that
robot
shouldn't
be
talking
to
the
engineers
who
are
designing
the
robot.
That
robot
should
be
talking
to
the
lay
people
who
are
trying
to
use
it,
and
so
I
think
that
that
problem
gets
extremely
magnified
when,
like
you,
have
no
incentives
whatsoever
for
documentation
and
then
these
engineers
are
trying
to
figure
out
like
how
to
communicate.
I'm
curious-
and
I
see
issac
has
joined
us-
has
been
working
on
this
as
well.
B
C
The
other
thing
is
wikipedia
has
definitely
changed
so,
like
maybe
10
or
20
years
ago.
Back
when
it
was
started,
it
was,
I
would
say,
a
nurturing
community
sort
of
like
apropedia
is
now
where
your
people
are
there
to
help
you
and
to
build
it
nowadays.
You
know
the
wikipedia
is
actually
shrunk
and
it
shrunk,
because
the
the
few
kind
of
super
users
are
just
slashing
and
burning
everything
there
was.
There
was
a
battle
over
reprap
a
couple
years
ago
where
they
killed
the
page,
and
it's
like
what
are
you
guys
doing
like
this?
C
This
is
exactly
what
wikipedia
was
built
to
put
up
and
it
took
months
for
the
the
fighting
to
finally
stop,
and
so
I
I
think
part
of
that
is,
you
know
everybody
wants
to
be
the
king
of
their
little
tiny
kingdom.
C
We
have
to
find
a
way
to
have
collaboration
in
a
way
that
keeps
everything
there
so
that
we're
always
able
to
build
upon
each
other,
and
I
you
know
in
software
they've
got
the
get
system
that
works
fairly
well,
but
normal
people
are
not
going
to
be
able
to
use
that
unless
it
gets
substantially
easier.
C
I
C
So
it's
a,
I
think
we
still
need
to
crack.
I
think
that
is
this
is
something
we
could
put
substantial
brainpower
in
as
to
how
to
do
proper,
especially
for
open
hardware.
You
know
based
building
upon
each
other's
work.
Like
you
know,
john
you'd
asked
about
like
creating
filament
from
from
voice
plastic,
and
that
is
still
pretty
hard
like
it's
hard
to
get
a
recycle
bot
that
functions
well
and
to
date.
My
paper
with
the
most
figures
in
it
is
the
recycle
bot
paper.
C
I
have
more
than
100
freaking
figures
on
how
to
build
one,
and
it's
still
not
good
enough.
Frankly,
like
we
still
get
emails
all
the
time,
so
it's
like
it,
it
needs
to
be
done
better.
It
needs
to
be
made
easier,
and
that
goes
for
basically
everything
so
there's
still
tons
of
engineering
that
needs
to
go
into
making
kind
of
a
truly
distributed,
fabricatable
civilization,
because
that's
just
one
snake
device,
there's
at
least
50-
that
we
need
to
get
civilization
going.
I
Something
about
project
that
did
that,
and
so
what
I'm
I'm
about
to
drop
two
open
hardware
projects,
the
we're
basically
doing
the
commercial
infrastructure
for
so
the
first
is
a
plywood
violin
project
run
by
a
fell
by
the
name
of
robert
brewer
young,
who
is
a
violin
maker,
a
luthier,
so
he's
been
trying
to
figure
out
how
to
get
it
such
that
you
can
do
cnc
cutting
of
off-cut
wood
from
people
that
are
selling
to
the
professional
violin
makers,
and
you
take
the
offcuts.
I
You
cut
them
in
cnc
machines
and
then
a
high
school
wood
chop
has
the
rest
of
the
tooling
that
you
would
need
to
put
these
things
together
because
it
turns
out
at
the
end
of
the
day
the
violins
are
more
or
less
the
kind
of
things
you
can
make
with
pretty
much
a
knife
and
infinite
patience,
which
is
pretty
much
the
tooling
that
they
had
back
in
the
day
right.
You
start
with
a
log
and
you
remove
everything
which
isn't
the
violin,
and
then
you
glue
the
remaining
pieces
together.
I
So,
there's
that
and
there's
also
a
thousand
year
clock
project
and
the
thousand-year
clock
is
about
four
feet
across
it's
a
spectacular,
looking
object
made
by
an
artist
in
new
zealand
and
what
we're
going
to
do
is
we're
going
to
package
all
of
these
things
up
using
the
same
structure
that
we're
currently
using
for
doing
provenance
of
gold
bars.
I
So
we've
got
a
legal
structure
where
you
can
take
multiple
sources
of
sources
of
truth
about
an
object
each
one
of
which
is
contributing
different
information.
So
this
guy
says
the
gold
bar
is
really
involved.
You
know
this
guy
over
here
says
that
the
gold
bar
has
the
following
number.
This
guy
over
here
says
that
the
gold
bar
will
be
released
under
the
falling
legal
conditions
and
each
one
of
these
things
is
bound
to
legal
warranty.
I
So
if
that
fact
turns
out
not
to
be
true
in
a
way
that
damages
the
owner
of
the
object
they
get
paid
and
we're
gradually
integrating
this
into
the
d5
ecosystem.
So
you
know
six
months
from
now:
we'll
have
all
singing
all
dancing
insurance
products
that
back
this
stuff
up
rather
than
individuals
having
liability
and
what
we're
planning
on
doing
is
basically
loading
up
all
the
plans
from
which
an
object
was
manufactured.
I
So
we
do
a
certification
from
the
author
of
the
plans.
This
is
the
set
of
plans
I
put
in
then
we
have
an
authorization
from
somebody
who
has
manufactured
it.
That
says,
I
manufactured
it
to
that
spec
and
then
we
have
one
two,
three
independent
verifiers
that
compare
the
object
at
the
end
of
the
process,
to
the
specification
and
vouch
for
it
and
in
the
context
of
the
distributed
manufacturing.
The
kind
of
idea
is
that
you
would
manufacture
a
violin.
I
I
So
you
might
buy
the
violin
for
a
hundred
dollars
and
then
you
might
lease
it
for
three
dollars
a
year
or
something
like
that,
and
that
allows
you
to
impose
maintenance
conditions
as
part
of
the
lease,
so
the
violence
will
be
taken
care
of
and
so
that
we
don't
accidentally,
you
know
wind
up
with
them
just
wandering
off
of
this
kind
of
stuff,
so
that,
as
an
approach,
you
know
we
could
take
any
substantial
chunk
of
open
hardware
and
we
could
do
that
with
it
and
that
begins
to
create
the
legal
frameworks,
because
preventing
people
from
manufacturing
things
is
basically
not
the
point
right.
I
I
That
is
a
service,
and
people
could
charge
money
for
doing
that.
Services
with
making
money
from
their
renovations
might
be,
for
example,
business
model
for
ose
the
designs
are
free,
but
if
you
want
us
to
stamp
this
thing,
is
you
actually
manufactured
it
to
spec?
We
inspect
and
you
pay
us
to
inspect,
and
then
we
put
a
digital
signature.
I
So
although
I've
been
kind
of
inactive
on
the
hex
here
upfront
because
you
know
like
it
just
wasn't
clear
what
the
next
move
was,
we
were
very
stuck
on
that
other
than
the
little
homeless
encampment
we
did
in
l.a,
which
is
another
story,
but
the
what
I
have
been
doing
is
I've
been
working
towards
building
the
legal
infrastructure
so
that
we
could
build
a
blockchain
based
market
for
open
hardware
using
these
new
business
models
and
authentication
techniques
as
a
way
of
validating
the
hardware
is
up
to
specification,
but
also
getting
the
original
designers
of
the
plan
paid.
C
D
I
I
You
buy
this
commercial
right
to
live
in
that
house
from
us,
but
you
open
it
up
for
a
secondary
market,
so
somebody
buys
that
right
before
you've
broken
the
ground
and
they're
taking
a
big
risk,
so
they
get
a
pretty
low
price
over
the
course
of
the
project.
It
becomes
more
and
more
certain
that
that
house
will
get
built
and
they
can
then
sell
those
tokens
on
to
the
people
that
actually
expect
to
buy
those
houses
and
live
in
and
what
you're
doing
here
is
you're
using
speculators
as
a
way
of
financing
the
property
development.
I
Now
that
is
an
approach
right.
You
then
have
to
provide
some
kind
of
meaningful
guarantee
that
the
house
has
received
will
be
the
same
as
the
house
has
promised,
and
to
bridge
that
gap
you
have
a
set
of
people
that
essentially
come
in
as
guarantors
for
a
different
part
of
the
work
I'm
doing
the
roof.
I
I
guarantee
the
roof
will
be
up
to
spec,
I'm
doing
the
windows
I
guarantee
the
windows
will
be
up
to
spec
each
one
of
the
crafts
people
involved
in
the
production
of
the
house
puts
out
an
independent,
limited
law,
an
independent
warranty
on
the
work
that
they're
doing,
and
the
crux
of
this
is
that
they
get
paid
not
just
for
doing
work.
But
when
the
house
changes
hands,
they
get
a
residual
fee.
I
If
the
work
that
they've
done
is
still
in
functional
condition,
so
it
incentivizes
people
not
only
to
do
the
job
right
the
first
time,
but
to
make
sure
the
stuff
is
durable,
because
they're
getting
a
fee.
Every
time
the
house
changes
hands
from
the
new
owner
not
to
buy
the
piping
or
the
roof,
but
by
the
guarantee
that
the
piping,
the
roof
will
still
be
there
in
25
years.
H
H
I
Ours
and
fine
art
are
what
we're
going
to
do.
Pay
the
bills,
but
the
open
source
stuff
is
kind
of
still
very
much
part
of
the
picture.
Let
me
see
if
I
can
find
an
asset.
E
E
I
I
I
So
I
just
pasted
in
the
chat.
There
is
an
nft
for
a
physical
object.
I
I'm
just
gonna
paste
another
link
into
the
chat,
so
we've
got
everything
in
one
place.
So
if
you
want
to
follow-
and
they
can.
E
H
I
I
We
then
loaded
into
the
physical
objects
using
a
bunch
of
esoteric
legal
hackery,
and
the
physical
objects
include
things
like
gold
bars,
fine
art.
You
know,
I
think
the
most
expensive
thing
we've
sold
so
far
is
about
eight
thousand
dollars,
but
we've
only
been
operational
for
about
a
month.
I
If
anybody
knows
friends
who
run
like
sneaker
companies
and
want
to
sell
like
high-end
sneakers
as
nfgs
come
and
give
us
a
shout,
so
you
document
the
object,
you
stick
the
object
involved.
You
sell
the
nft
of
the
object
right,
that's
the
most
primitive
and
most
controlled
form
of
this
technology.
I
Once
you
get
the
objects
out
of
the
vault
and
they're
protected
by
legal
structures,
rather
than
by
physical
walls,
you're,
basically
kind
of
moving
towards
bruce
sterling's
spine
vision,
so
here's
the
so
you've
seen
the
open
sea
side
of
it.
This
is
the
golden
asset
passport,
and
this
is
the
legal
identity
of
the
object
which
is
being
sold
using
this
open
cnft.
I
So
the
nft
is
basically
like
a
transferable
deed
that
people
can
buy
and
sell.
That
gives
them
the
right
to
take
the
object
out
of
the
vault
and
then
what
this
is.
This
is
the
legal
information
that
defines
what
the
object
is
that
they're
buying
site
unseen.
Does
that
make
sense
so
far,
because
this
is
a
pretty
crazy
story?
It.
I
So
right
now
all
the
things
that
we're
buying
and
selling
they're
only
for
sale,
while
they're
sitting
inside
of
a
vault,
so
the
physical
object
is
put
into
a
vault,
then
the
right
to
take
the
physical
object
out
of
the
vault
is
being
bought
and
sold
as
an
nft
right,
that's
phase
one
in
phase
two,
we
take
the
object
out.
We
put
the
object
into
a
trust
and
then
the
trust
releases
you
the
object
right.
Then
you
do
what
you
like
with
the
object
and
when
the
time
comes
to
get
rid
of
the
object.
I
Again,
you
find
a
new
person.
You
instruct
the
trust
that
they're
the
new
custodian
of
the
object
and
then
you
do
a
financial
transaction
hand
them
the
goods.
They
then
certify
that
the
goods
are
in
the
correct
condition.
If
they
are,
they
accept
them
and
they
pay
you
if
they
reject
the
goods.
At
that
point,
then,
at
that
point,
you're
stuck
with
them,
you
have
to
fix
them
before
you
can
sell
them.
So
this
also
has
implications
for
things
like
free
property.
C
Why
why
don't
you
just
start
with
the
trust?
Why
why
the
by
the
vault
the
nft
to
begin.
I
I
Trust
structures
are
super
slippery
and
there's
enough
value
involved
to
keep
us
busy
for
a
while,
so
gold,
whiskey,
art
storage
in
places
like
the
geneva
freeport.
I
So
let
me
show
you
the
kind
of
payload
of
this,
so
we
have
a
set
of
reference
images
of
the
object
and
if
we
were
dealing
with
open
hardware,
these
things
would
be
schematics
of
the
object
as
it
ought
to
exist
and
maybe
pictures
of
what
it
would
look
like
if
you
built
it
properly
or
there
would
be
pictures
of
the
actual
object
that
would
be
manufactured
and
you
could
put
your
dxs
or
whatever
else
you
had
in
here.
Then
you
get
to
this
little
doohickey,
which
is
the
legal
contract.
C
I
I
How
much
do
you
want
to
get
paid
for
making
the
guarantee
that
your
plan
works
right?
The
plan
is
free
to
anybody
who
wants
it
for
free.
If
you
want
to
pay
for
a
little
bit
of
cover
in
case
it's
a
fiasco,
you
pay
a
little
money.
If
you
want
to
pay
a
lot
of
money
in
case
it's
a
fiasco,
you
pay
a
lot
of
money.
C
So
so
really
it's
it's
about
monetizing,
your
ability
to
subsume
risk
so
like
if
we
use
like
an
eco-home
as
an
example,
I'm
fairly
confident
martian's
plans
are
solid,
but
in
my
I
would
be
very
concerned
say
someone
messes
up
the
plumbing
and
then
you
know
you
don't
notice
it.
For
a
little
bit,
a
person
goes
on
vacation
houses
flooded,
millions
of
dollars
of
I
don't
know,
art
is
destroyed
and
you're
on
the
hook
for
it.
I
So
you're
only
for
the
amount
of
price
that
you
want
to
absorb.
So
if
I
say
right,
I
guarantee
that
if
you
fold
these
instructions
correctly
you're
going
to
get
a
working,
rep
wrap
right,
you
do
the
design
bob.
Does
the
construction
harry
buys
the
printer
right?
So
you
sell
a
license
that
says:
if
you
fold
the
instructions
correctly,
then
you
will
get
a
working
printer.
I
It
will
have
the
following
attributes
and
if
it
doesn't,
if
there's
a
design,
flaw
I'll
accept
liability
for
that,
but
my
liability
is
limited
to
the
cost
of
building
the
printer,
which
is
400
and
I'm
going
to
charge.
You
50
bucks
for
that
warranty,
so
that
structure
where
you're
charging
people
for
the
promise
that
the
goods
will
work
if
they're
correctly
implemented.
I
This
then
goes
down
to
bob
bob
then
certifies
that
he's
manufactured
at
your
specification
and
then
you
perhaps
optionally
bless
bob's
implementation,
and
then
you
charge
another
25
dollars
for
that
or
a
third-party
q.
A
team
comes
in
verifies.
This
thing
has
been
correctly
built
and
they
sell
the
work.
I
So
what
we're
doing
here
is
we're
separating
out.
I
gave
them
away
the
plans
for
free.
If
you
want
insurance,
the
plans
are
correct.
You
buy
the
insurance
and,
if
you're
doing
something
like
sending
these
down
things
to
marge
and
the
cost
of
failure
is
gigantic.
Maybe
you
should
be
talking
to
lloyds
of
london
about
underwriting.
I
So
it
provides
a
way
of
tearing
the
risk.
If
it's
low
risk,
I
don't
buy
the
insurance.
If
it's
medium
risk,
I
buy
the
warranties.
If
it's
high
risk,
I
buy
special
warranties
from
specialized
providers,
and
what
this
provides
us
is
a
way
of
doing
is
risk
compensating
any
kind
of
open
source
hardware
project,
because
it
allows
multiple
parties
to
come
in
and
certify.
I
I
I
And
this
is
basically
providing
you
know
a
lot
of
the
reason
the
corporations
exist
in
the
hardware
domain
is
to
soak
up
the
risk
of
what
happens
when
things
go
wrong
with
the
hardware
that
they're
selling
so
finding
ways
of
soaking
up
the
risk
without
creating
a
whole
new
set
of
opportunities.
For
you
know,
corporations
to
do
their
thing
is
sort
of
the
goal
state
here,
because
I'm
pretty
sure
that
the
risk
absorbing
function
is
necessary.
I
I
think
we
need
entities
to
be
able
to
soak
the
risk
of
things
like
you
know,
badly
manufactured
hardware
or
poor
design,
but
what
we
don't
want
is
to
have
those
corporations
be
broad
in
their
scope
of
operations.
Insurers,
although
they
are,
you,
know,
evil
corporate
busters
at
heart,
they're,
still
lethal
corporate
bastards
that
work
for
you,
because
they
sell
insurance
to
you
and
they
have
a
very,
very
limited,
tight,
narrow
scope
of
operations.
I
And
if
you
think
of
things
like
underwriters
laboratories,
you
know
they've
been
ensuring
the
quality
of
domestic
appliances,
for
I
don't
know
60
years
or
something,
and
they
really
do
excellent
work
on
making
sure
that
the
stuff
that
you
buy
in
the
stores
is
safe.
And
so
I
think
that
we,
if
we
figure
out
how
to
get
the
right
interface
between
the
open
hardware,
community
and
the
insurance
community,
and
we
wind
up
in
a
position
where
open
hardware
becomes
much
more
directly
competitive
with
the
stuff
provided
by
corporations.
F
So
I
think
that
it's
very
very
important
that
this
dream
team
that
you
that
we
have
the
pleasure
to
have
now
today
in
this
516
event,
could
continue
to
interact,
could
continue
to
deploy
some
collaboration
likes
like
marcie,
says,
and
for
that
matter
we're
going
to
enable
a
a
new
sort
of
hypertext
idea
and
project
on
our
website.
F
Grifablabnetwork.Com,
using
with
your
permission,
the
your
videos
and
some
texts
that
enable
to
find
out
the
best
approach
to
resilience.
Binary
shows
us
a
very
interesting
feature.
That
is
the
other
ai.
I
F
I
could
show
you,
for
example,
this
one
which
is
a
way
to
to
take
notes
about
a
book
bertrand
russell,
and
it
is
an
advanced
hypertext
with
graphs
enabled.
So
it
will
be
a
very
interesting.
Maybe
we
are
talking
with
professor
joshua
peace.
Maybe
his
book
could
be
a
good
start
for
that
and,
however,
we
are
trying
to
to
create
the
green
fablab
project
as
an
advanced
hypertext.
F
So
each
approach,
each
technology
and
each
project
could
have
a
branch
and
more
branch
that
could
be
enabled
with
another
minds
and
other
collective
wisdom
outside
in
the
internet.
So
what
we
are
trying
to
to
get
is
a
collective
wisdom.
The
world
is
better
if,
because
we
have
internet
and
we
have
internet
because
at
some
point
a
linux
enable
an
open
source
by
tackling
the
collective
intelligence
worldwide
and
after
that,
it
comes
arduino
and
after
that
it
comes
up
in
ai
and
and
so
on.
F
So
I
think
that
this
could
be
a
good
start
for
the
to
for
to
continue
this
initiative.
So
I
I
have
pleasure
to
invite
you
to
that
and
I
will
send
a
mail
regarding
this
initiative
that.
B
F
B
Excellent
and
thank
you-
everyone,
it's
an
honor
to
be
on
a
panel
with
you
all
and
exciting,
to
hear
what
you're
up
to
it
sounds
like
there's
a
lot
going
on
from
turning
plastic
waste
into
protein
to
enabling
totally
distributed
quality
control
and
insurance
distribution.
B
To
you
know
everything
people
have
been
working
on
around
resilience
and
distributed
sustainability,
building,
building
up
society,
rather,
whether
it's
today
or
for
future
potential
catastrophes,
I'm
curious.
If
we
could
go
around,
I
think
the
the
elephant
in
the
room
is
the
fact
that
we're
all
on
zoom,
because
there's
a
global
pandemic
going
on
and
supply
chains
are
still
backed
up
for
months.
Have
you
all
learned
things?
Is
there?
Let's
say
something
hopeful
that
you're
taking
out
of
the
current
disruption
that
we
can?
B
We
can
take
on
to
our
make
sense
and
make
resilience.
D
Final
words
would
be
I'd
like
to
see.
I
mean
definitely
there's
a
lot
of
common
ground
in
what
we
can
collaborate
on,
so
people
like
joshua,
vinay
or
anybody
else.
Here
I
mean
how
do
I
know,
how
do
we
work
on
selecting
problems
that
are
larger
and
more
of
us
working
together,
because
the
solution
requires
more
of
us
to
do
it?
That's
the
kind
of
logic
that
we
have
to
think
about,
but
I
really
love
to
invite
you
to
think
about
it
on
your
work
right
now.
D
E
C
Please,
oh
thanks.
Thanks
yeah
anna,
that's
a
that's
a
great
question
and
I
I'm
at
least
I
started
out
quite
optimistic
so
when
the
the
pandemic
initially
hit,
there
was
this
enormous
outpouring
of
people
actually
sharing
open
source
ideas,
there's
pressures
on
companies
to
open
source
vaccines
and
ventilator
designs,
and
you
know
the
humanitarian.
C
C
We've
got
a
bunch
of
decent
solutions
depending
upon
you
know
what
materials
you
have
access
to,
but
the
sad
thing
is:
there's
still
people
working
on
the
problems,
but
as
soon
as
you
were
no
longer
threatened,
the
number
of
participants
dropped
like
a
rock
right
back
down
to
almost
where
we
started.
C
You
know
problem
got
a
whole
slew
of
problems
that
we
need
to
be
applying
that
same
kind
of
energy
to,
and
so
I
I
think
we
do
need
to
find
a
way
to
make
it
more
mainstream.
Make
it
more.
Traditional,
like
that,
your
default
setting
is
open
source.
You
start
with
sharing,
and
you
know
it
comes
from
having
functional
business
models
where
people
can
pay
for
their
kids,
shoes
and
stuff.
C
We
need
to
get
there
and
it's
at
that
on
that
point,
especially
in
the
hardware
community,
we're
very
early
on,
I
think,
technically
we're
more
advanced
already,
but
the
how
to
actually
make
the
whole
system
work
is
still
challenging
and
so
the
in
the
end
you
know
the
well,
especially
in
the
us,
the
it's
depressing
right.
We
had
it.
We
had
solutions
and
now
we're
losing
them.
B
Yeah,
I'm
working
with
some
political
economist
of
a
background
in
law
and
it's
heartening
to
see
from
you
know
the
legal
industrial
scholars
who
have
no
background
in
open
source
communities,
starting
to
ask
things
like
in
the
us.
We
have
all
this
government
funding
that
goes
to
proprietary
solutions
which
get
captured
by
industry,
and
so
why
is
it
that
we're
using
taxpayer
money
to
really
subsidize
industrial
innovation?
And
so
there's
there's
a
small
but
growing
community
of
economists
and
legal
scholars
who
are
who
are
trying
to
push
this
great
question.
I
Those
sorry
I
met
her
once
she
was
on
a
panel
at
an
event.
I
was
at
and
she's
about
six
and
a
half
feet
tall
and
has
the
general
demeanor
of
like
xeno,
warrior,
princess
or
red
sonja.
She
seems
like
you
know
she
should
be
wielding
some
kind
of
large
axe
or
mallet
or
something
it
is
hugely
intimidating.
H
H
I
can't
remember
somebody
she
was
debating
some
right
ringer
and
they
were
kind
of
rude
to
her.
She
just
could
have
managed
over
the.
I
Was
hysterical,
it's
like
that's
how
you
get
this
thing
done
so
my
take
on
this
is
that
we
need
to
move
into
a
post-optimism
perspective
right
at
this
point.
Optimism
is
a
liability,
because,
if
we're
working
based
on
optimism,
I
guarantee
you
the
next
10
years
are
going
to
kill
you
right,
we're
just
going
to
get
the
metric
hell
kicked
out
of
us.
You
know
tens
or
hundreds
of
millions
of
people
are
going
to
wind
up
being
completely
screwed
by
climate
change.
Maybe
they'll
die.
I
Maybe
they
won't
it's
going
to
be
horrific
either
way
and
politically,
you
know
we're
not
done
with
this
far
right
swing.
We've
got
2024
coming
right
around
the
corner,
so
I
think
we
need
to
move
into,
and
I
really
mean
this
right:
a
post-optimism
mode
of
engagement,
right,
we're
not
going
to
win
we're
not
going
to
save
the
world.
I
We
are
towards
least
worse,
the
less
of
us
will
get
broken
by
having
their
optimism
completely
betrayed
by
history,
and
you
know
the
has
anybody
heard
of
this
movie
called
the
coquettes,
so
it
documents
the
passage,
I'm
going
to
send
a
link.
There
documents
the
password
to
a
san
francisco
acid
drag
troop
in
the
1960s,
but
one
of
the
things
that
comes
up
in
the
course
of
the
movie
is
a
description
of
the
economic
system
of
san
francisco
during
the
height
of
the
commune
movement,
and
it's
staggering
and
heartbreaking.
I
I
I
You
know
and
it's
a
different
mindset.
It's
far
more
endurance
based
it's
far
more
about
just
put
one
foot
in
front
of
the
other,
because
what
the
hell
else
are
you
going
to
do
with
your
life,
and
I
think
that
we
need
to
cultivate
this
thing,
which
is
much
more
military
or
much
more
medical,
rather
than
the
kind
of
you
know,
1950s
style,
technical
optimism,
which
is
always
run
through
the
open
source
movement.
It's
always
run
through
the
commons
movement.
I
I
I
That
there's
no,
there
is
no
magic
collaboration.
Theory,
it's
not
a
thing
right
in
small
groups.
Sure
that's
a
well
proof.
That's
happened
well
right,
but
if
we
keep
hoping
for
the
magic
collaboration
theory
and
what
we
get
is
people
bulldozing
refugee
boats
back
into
the
sea,
we're
going
to
get
heartbroken
and
I've
seen
the
60s
generation
get
heartbroken.
The
1990s
generation
get
heartbroken
heartbroken,
makes
people
ineffective
and
often
shortens
their
lifespans
remarkable
right.
I
What
I'm
suggesting
is
that
we
let
go
of
the
dream
that
it's
going
to
be
okay
and
we
start
getting
really
pragmatic,
like
we
are
medical
personnel.
We
are
here
to
do
the
best
that
we
can
with
the
triage
situation
you've
presented
us
with
and
when
our
shifts
are
over,
we
will
go
home
and
we
will
sleep
and
we
will
be
back
tomorrow.
I
You
know
because
doctors
don't
operate
from
hope.
100
of
their
patients
eventually
die
right.
It's
a
completely
different
mindset
from
the
utopian
visions
which
have
motivated
so
many
of
us
in
this
field
right
and
letting
go
of
utopia
and
moving
toward
damage
limitation.
You
know
it's
like
ending
the
war
of
drugs
and
moving
towards
portugal.
I
D
I
E
G
C
C
Switching
over
to
ev
cars
like
we
got
so
many
things
heading
in
the
right
direction
and
even
corporate
hardware,
the
citation
rate
of
open
hardware
is
growing
exponentially
and
it's
15
years
behind
open
source
software,
and
so,
if
you
think
about
open
source
software,
now
it's
dominant
like
it's
the
way
every
company
that
has
anything
to
do
with
the
internet
is
running,
at
least
on
the
back
end.
At
this
point
and
many
on
the
front
end
and
the
so
I'm
far,
I'm
far
more
optimistic.
C
I
Medical
model,
medical
model,
but
the
bright
side.
The
bright
side-
makes
us
very
vulnerable
to
history.
Right
I
mean
you
know,
I'm
a
product
of
the
1990s
wave
of
the
psychedelic
revolution
and
believe
me,
we
invented
plur
right.
We
were
all
bright
side
all
the
time
and
we've
aged
horribly,
because
the
enormous
disappointment
in
the
human
race
that
comes
with
being
an
optimist,
basically
just
breaks
people
right.
You
know
culturally,
and
I
can't
over
stress
this.
I
E
B
I
Barely
make
about
scandals
yeah
exactly
right,
so
we
might
be
successful
in
being
massively
exploited
by
capitalism,
but
that
is
not
the
same
thing
as
winning
and
the
cultural
trajectory
that
we're
on
the
far
right
is
not
gone
right.
The
climate
stuff,
you
know
50
degrees
in
europe,
50
degrees
in
canada,
50
degrees
in
portland,
50
degrees
in
india,
greece,
burns
to
the
ground.
I
You
know
like
it's
going
to
be
a
really
grim
10
years,
and
I
think
pre-adapting
to
that
is
one
of
the
healthiest
things
we
could
do.
We
have
to
beat
the
rainbow
unicorn
stupidity
out
of
the
movement
if
the
movement
is
going
to
be
meaningful
in
a
world
that
has
hundreds
of
millions
of
people
being
displaced
by
climate
change
or
tens
of
millions
of
people
dying
on
site.
D
I
I
mean
the
possibility
was
that
the
age
of
aquarius
was
going
to
come.
An
lsd
was
going
to
make
them
awaken
humanity
right.
That
was
the
60s
version
of
the
story.
The
90s
version
of
the
story
was,
the
internet
was
going
to
awaken
humanity
and
it
was
going
to
enable
mass
collaboration.
Well,
it
did,
but
not
for
the
good
people
right.
C
I
C
C
So
if
you
compare
when,
when
I
started
in
solar
work
in
grad
school,
the
idea
that
we
could
get
a
pv
panel
a
panel
under
three
dollars,
a
lot
was
just
that
was
like
the
dream
and
once
we
did
that
we
were
all
gonna
retire
and
now
you
can
buy
for
under
30
cents.
Like
absolutely,
then
you
and
if
you
look
for
a
deal,
you
can
break
that
in
half
again.
So
it's
many
of
the
many
of
the
areas
are
all
headed
in
the
right
direction.
We
still
got
the.
H
Okay,
no,
I
didn't,
but
that
was
an
interesting
convo.