►
Description
Greg Gage is the co-founder of Backyard Brains - https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Greg_Gage - and TED Fellow friend. Here is a conversation on how he developed his educational kits revenue model. Last year he was at $1M sales revenue and $750k from grants, and he's growing 20% per year. Discussing learnings for OSE's work on providing educational kits around the Open Source Microfactory. Good takeaway - we can bring meaningful R&D into schools.
-----------------
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A
B
A
A
C
D
I
suspect,
without
the
NIH,
so
in
order
to
because
probably
for
the
same
reason,
ecology.
No
one
knows
they
need
that
right,
so
you
have
to
first
of
all
treat
the
market
and
then
sell
to
the
market,
so
open
source
neuroscience
DIY,
kids,
nobody
in
schools
you
this
or
even
though
that
exists
right.
A
lot
of
our
work
has
been
trying
to
create
this
market,
trying
to
create
a
need
that
so
we've
been
doing
that
a
lot
few
tenant
talks
and
popular
media
articles
for
our
marketing.
D
First
up,
we
don't
have
anyone
sales
and
marketing
at
all.
We
did
hire
someone
last
year
when
our
former
employees
came
back,
but
it's
not
something
they
were
really
good.
I
can't
be
the
best
person
to
answer
those
or,
like
you,
we're
kind
of
getting
better.
So
we
works
again
through
the
enemies
that
we
found
out
through
a
called
niche
market
assessment
program
that
they
took
our
wine
and
they
went
out
and
get
market
research
and
figured
this
top
for
us.
D
D
And
I've
been
willing
to
share
with
you
or
303.
They
comes
back
and
we've
got
this
four
times
twice
with
the
NH
once
with
another
grant,
if
you're
on
they
kind
of
like
these
consultant
work
for
like
kind
of
startup,
they're
kind
of
like
accessible
to
the
entrepreneur,
but
particularly
paid
for
by
some
third
party
civil
P.
So
what
they
do
is
they
look
at
your
your
product?
D
What
and
they
they
make
a
whole
bunch
of
phone
calls
the
people
that
could
be
interested
in
that
and
they
find
out
why
they
wanna
be,
are
interested
in
you
or
why
they
are
you
so
that
all
the
feedback
is
good
and
then
from
there
you
found
out
that
it's
a
hard
for
school
buyer
stuff
just
because
it's
they
would
prefer
to
go
with
you,
distributors.
So
let
me
turn
in
this
relationship
with
distributors
and
said
that
we
work
with
the
heavy
water.
It's
a
scientific,
endeavor
schools,
a
few
other
distributors
for
all
there.
D
A
D
They're
here
people
there
and
it's
phase
of
these
things
work
it's
we
don't
only
track
well,
but
we
notice
that
the
more
that
we
present
at
conferences,
the
more
sales
that
we
get
so
it
might
seem
expensive
at
the
beginning.
I
know
it
did
for
us.
Some
of
these
are
like
$10,000
just
to
have
a
location
right,
but
it's
over
over
time
like
a
couple
of
customers
to
book
the
borders,
and
then
you
start
paying
for
itself.
So
our
sales
are
growing
meat.
D
D
D
And
so
then
the
girl
I'm,
a
girl
scientists
like
to
like
to
do
experiments,
so
we've
done
experiments
on
her
site
and
we
know
that
it's
not
great,
so
we're
switching
that
over
something
that
we
could
more
simple,
simplify
that
the
product
line
that
we
have.
But
first
we
have
changing
one
of
the
biggest
complaints
that
customers
don't
like.
We
fixed
price
on
shippings
and
I
change
that
over.
It's
always
like
stop
that
you
know
and
they're
not
really
a
corner.
Business
are
kind
of
like
stopping
us
for
growing
it.
D
So
we're
just
spending
some
time
Rd
just
to
get
the
process
better
awesome,
some
of
the
future
that
you
think
is
start.
She
will
increase
our
sales.
So
the
other
big
thing
we're
trying
this
year
is
we're
doing
an
experiment
in
Europe
we're
going
to
try
to
start
having
websites
that
are
in
languages
like
in
Germany
warehouse
you
use
of
the
fat
unless
some
puzzle
and
pay
us
even
to
increase
our
sales
by
making
the
purchase
less
less
cumbersome
for
people
last
here
on
us.
D
C
D
C
D
D
A
D
We
gotta
run
like
a
non-profit,
we
actually
run
like
we
actually
run
like
a
research
lab.
We
spend
all
of
our
like
last
year.
We
didn't
make
any
somebody
basically
spent
them
all
money,
get
research
involvement,
my
god
I,
look
at
my
position
before
as
a
rewrite.
This
isn't
an
alternative
academic
universe,
and
so,
if
all
the
universities
will
close
tomorrow-
and
you
want
to
publish
your
own
papers,
do
your
research.
What
would
you
do?
One
thing
you
do
is
to
create
science
papers
and
then
the
tools
that
use
the
assign
papers
you
sell.
D
D
D
A
Easier
to
run
a
business
right,
no
I
like
that
model,
because
that's
how
we
operate,
we
put
all
our
money
into
R&D
so
because
our
we
cannot
get
the
funding
for
the
full
mission
of
what
you
want.
So
it
has
to
be
blue,
strap.
Absolutely
we
can't
get
any
venture
stuff
because
it's
to
work
too
far
out
so
like
we
want
to,
because
that
can
throw
in
some
strings
there,
but
the
idea
that
you're
funding
your
own
R&D
and
then
that
movement
grows
because
there's
a
real
product
that
comes
from
that.
A
D
Like
I
said
last
year,
42
recoverable
yeah,
they
were
I,
don't
it
is
already,
but
it's
a
product.
So
we
our
product,
is
science,
publications,
yeah
and
it's
just
like
a
university
university.
You
write
you,
you
work
at
the
university
of
pay,
your
salary,
but
then
you
make
research
grants
move.
New
research
shows
up,
and
so
we've
been
fortunate
enough
to
be
able
to
write.
A
series
of
grants
have
been
successful
through
the
espero
I'm
sure,
there's
something
that
you.
D
For
so
the
plant
stuff
and
in
a
tent
couple
years,
not
plant
electrophysiology
yeah,
nothing,
that's
been
funded
by
grants.
Yet
this
is
all
all
of
a
sudden
something
we've
been
doing
with.
There
are
taking
money
that
we
generate
now,
but
you
what
we're
going
to
do
in
the
future
is
bright,
a
grant
that
will
fund
the
development
of
that
product
into
something
more
substantial.
So
that's
the
that's
the
goals
that
we
take
and
there
are
people
the
nurse,
so
the
NIH.
D
C
C
D
They're
doing
two
things:
one
is
you're
giving
something
that
the
funding
agency
takes
support
and
the
other
one
is
that
you're
turning
into
a
product
that
you
can
sell.
But
so
we
want
you
to
be
a
for-profit
business,
that's
going
to
personalize
something
and-
and
it's
beautiful
it's
beautiful,
because
what
they're
saying
is
that
there
is
a
unmet
need
in
the
market,
but
they're
a
they're,
maybe
not
enough
people
that
are
willing
to
pay
for
it.
D
Yet
so
we're
going
to
give
some
heart,
you
know
from
people
we're
not
even
aware
that
they
need
to
have,
and
so
yeah
same
to
same,
like
you
know,
like
solar
power
stuff
and
all
these
things
that
are
kind
of
the
next
generation.
There's
not
enough
market
30
gap
they
need
to
build.
The
infrastructure
to
have
a
market
is
what
these
grams
are
good
for
it.
So
for
our
type
of
stuff
it
works
out.
Well,
it's
only
been
we've
now
successfully
put
in
3s
play
ours
for
to.
D
A
fateful
two-phase
ones,
and
then
one
of
the
phase
1
to
phase
2
and
then
suits
you
somewhat
at
10,
one
of
the
TED
Fellows
they
got
from
NASA.
He
told
me
about
the
phase.
2B
and
I
did
do
it.
Then
we
got
a
face
to
beat,
which
is
like
a
three-year
grant
on
top
of
vines,
so
we've
been
funded
for
almost
10
years.
Now
we.
A
B
A
Okay,
so
let
me
run
this
by
you,
so
somebody
wants
to
start
a
business
doing
the
same
thing
as
you
as
you
do.
Making
kids.
Was
you
load
your
response
me?
We
have
a
thing
called
distributive
enterprise.
That's
that's
our
model
where
we
dip
up
businesses,
but
then
we
actively
try
to
distribute
that
business
after
we
prove
it,
because
so
that
we
know
what
we're
talking
about.
But
but
our
goal
is
to
get
that
out
there,
because
we
think
it's
good.
D
D
A
Yeah
well,
our
our
idea
is
I
mean
our
mission
is
to
end
artificial
scarcity.
So
that's
a
pretty
big
thing
and-
and
we
can't
do
it
ourselves,
so
we
I
mean
that's
just
part
of
the
game
for
us.
If
we
think
about
it
a
lot
now,
but
then
a
practical
question,
like
is,
would
you
see
anything
right
now
like,
for
example,
we
have
robotics
like
the
universal
access
that
you
can
build
3d
printers
with
it,
you
can
britain
build
circuit,
metals,
cnc,
torch
tape,.
D
A
Let
me
just
show
you
a
link
for
what
this
thing
is,
but,
like
I
was
one
one
practical
question
is
that
I
don't
know
if
you're
looking
or
like.
Is
that
word,
of
course,
if
you're
open
source,
I
would
ask
for
collaboration
if
you
and
I
are
interested
in
working
on
some
products
together.
So,
for
example,
take
a
look
at
this
see.
A
If
one
of
the
questions
I
want
to
ask
you,
is
there
any
common
area
where
we
can
develop
kids
together,
but
this
is
one
that
I
thought,
but
I
don't
know
to
use
any
other
kind
of
stuff.
It
could
be
used
for
a
liquid
handling
robots
for
a
like
genetics,
work
or
whatever,
but
just
just
to
wrap
up
that
area
like,
for
example,
if
you
want
what
we
do
is
things
like
an
open-source
Raspberry
Pi
tablet.
You
know,
okay,.
C
A
You
can
use
that
as
an
open-source
product
that
you
distribute
as
well,
but
I,
don't
know,
I,
don't
know
if
you
have
any
interest
in
that
kind
of
stuff.
Is
this
hardware
we're
too
Hardware
of
all
sorts
and
the
machines
for
making
hardware?
So
if
there's
any
anything
that
could
be
put
into
the
education
context,
we'd
like
to
do
it
for
us
the
major
realization
that
I've
had
all
the
time
I
was
like.
A
Okay,
we're
gonna
prototype,
we're
gonna
burn
our
money,
making
machines
you
know
built
a
hundred
or
so
or
whatever,
but
I've
always
been
reluctant
to
go
to
schools.
Because,
okay,
how
do
you
get
the
students
to
contribute
anything
meaningful?
Now
we
learned
some
things
over
the
years,
which
is
by
modular
design
and
a
Construction
Set
approach.
You
can
absolutely
get
school
kids
involved
in
this
because
you
can
break
things
down
into
very
small
bite-sized
chunks
and
if
you
create
kits
like
a
constructor
kits,
basically
like
the
souped
up
versions
of
Lego
and.
C
A
A
So
there's
a
lot
a
lot
of
busy
work
so
called
busy
work,
but
also
publishable
stuff
that
people
can
do
just
to
give
you
a
simple
example,
like
students
can
be
learning
Arduino,
hydraulics,
that's
3d,
printing
and
more
by
building
a
scale
model
of
a
tractor
that
actually
works
with
real
working
water
based
pop
actuators,
real
controllers.
So
basically,
everything
in
a
small-scale
that
mimics
the
large
machines
and
could
be
used
both
for
kids
and
real
education
and
real
prototyping.
So
I
believe
in
that,
and
that's
that's
that's
where
I'm.
D
We're
doing
it
or
a
science-based,
this
is
very
simple,
deserve
their
teaching
tools
of
and
some
of
these
people
use.
These
are
in
similar,
our
stuff.
We
use
for
real
science
papers,
so
yeah
yeah,
and
the
selling
point
for
us
is
that
this
is
the
same
type
of
data,
that's
being
collected
by
research
labs
around
the
bowl
which
you're
gonna
be
able
to
do
in
your
classroom
and
the
same
thing
and
say
this:
is
these
these
machines,
because
I'm
welcoming
actually
so
I
yeah
I,
can
see
a
lot
of
similarities?
D
D
City
so
English
get
the
other.
Nice
thing
is
that
they
have
matching
grants
and
so
will
be
submitted.
Our
last
frame,
you
know
twenty
five
thousand
dollars
to
spend
on
marketing
campaigns
and
stuff
that
normally
you
can't
get
funded
by
grants
pure
sales
type
stuff
yeah
so
anyway,
so
that
I'll
give
you
a
warning
that
I
have
a
very
good
writing
brand.
So
I,
look
at
that
very
narrow
focus
field
of
what
can
I
write
this.
This
was
write
itself,
I.
D
Think
a
number
of
other
teaching
tool,
the
teaching
stuff
we
actually
submitted
and
I
wish.
I,
don't
want
to
talk
to
you
back
then
I
didn't
sleep
on
you,
I
didn't
think,
but
this
time,
but
we
submitted
grants
to
the
NIH
in
2013,
got
rejected
for
building
a
class
called
how
to
build
any
scientific
instrument,
and
the
idea
was
to
use.
D
D
D
A
D
Us
yay,
or
maybe
the
NSF
or
all
these
other
people
have
their
own
version
of
ours.
They
all
do
their
own,
our
25.
These
are
all
generic
terms
at
other
all
lusatia
tubes,
our
25
just
means
it's
a
education
grant
suppose
the
ones
that
we
know
after
well.
We
go
awesome.
We
also
go
after
just
pure
XP
artists,
that's
funny
because
we're
competing
against
people,
building,
heart
pumps
for
real
know
like
in
that
situation
and
then
there's
our
plug
like
chocolate
stuff.
But
you
know.
D
A
D
So
let's
say
looks
bad
sorry
about
that.
We're
still
this
old
boy
network.
You
have
to
be
university
in
order
to
teach
proper
training.
The
other
thing
I'll
tell
you
that
it
will
help
you
and
it's
helped
me
quite
a
bit.
Is
that
you'll
find
out
if
you
can
submit
a
grant,
they're
gonna
come
back
and
tell
you
you
know,
good
luck
cannot
be
able
to.
So
you
have
to
come
in
with
someone
that
has
like.
So
we
used
Purdue
University
as.
D
That's
like
this
is
this
is
kind
of
and
I
like
it,
because
she's
not
running
back
in
France
and
she's
like
a
objective
lens
and
if,
in
theory,
that's
that
vanilla
frosting
and
that
took
us,
awhile
figure
in
the
first
few
guys
came
through
this
criticism
over
again
in
our
lack
of
educational
theory
to
be
able
to
produce
these
brands.
So
many.
D
Rest
I
do
a
scourge
to
Purdue,
University
and
I
worked
with
her,
and
this
is
one
of
my
college
that
I
worked
with
in
the
past.
I
did
I
did
a
course
for
Harvard
and,
like
seven
years
ago,
see
something
so
and
she
was
the
grad
student
was
working
with
our
data
at
the
time.
Gianna
position
that
and
Dan
you
know
Bennett
preview
now
she's
a
professor.
She
tells
us
you
can
work
together.
So
that's
been
a
good
relationship.
We
bring
out
in
people
as
well.
I.
D
Think
yeah
nice
thing
about
the
grant
is
that
it
allows
you
to
find
someone
in
the
field
that
remotely
would
work
with,
but
they
could
provide
some
value
to
use.
You
can
play
them
on
my
stone,
able
include
you
on
the
ramp
salary
here
next
four
years,
making
sure
interest
right
away
and
if
it
works
out.
A
D
Kitten
phase
two
of
our
random
phase
change.
What
this
one
is.
They
are
they're
actually
putting
cameras
in
the
classroom
and
watching
students
and
teachers
interact
with
the
devices
and
they're
measuring
behavior
I'll.
Also
look
at
the
last
questions
about
their
self.
Do
you
feel
what
you
can
do
this
as
a
scientist
like
you,
they're
questions
that
are
really
hard
to
answer
like
I
can
see
myself
actually
becoming
a
scientist.
D
It's
the
last
two
very
various
questions:
we're
trying
to
tease
that
information
out
and
they
look.
There
are
actual
data
on
these
videos
interactions
and
they
scored
a
base
upon
connell
office,
the
teacher
interaction
of
the
students,
how
often
our
students
interact
with
each
other
and
so
that
they're
there.
My
interest
is
just
as
these
tools
allow
teachers
to
Mouse
to
use
the
fuel
or
confidence
I'm.
Sorry,
these
are
things
that
I
could
sell,
because
that's
important
for
parents
to
know
that
and
then
does
it
hit
the
guidelines
that
are
required
for
this
first
States.
D
To
do
this
right,
that's
the
second
thing,
but
what
she
did
you
did.
The
Purdue
lady
is
a
researcher,
so
she
wants
to
show
that
the
reasons
why
I
mean
they're
happening
is
because
of
what
this
tool
allows
them
to
do
so
she's,
looking
at
something
completely
different,
but
what's
cool
is
if
she's
gonna
publish
papers
on
that
and
then
that's
gonna
help
us
be
more
grants
the
future
because
then,
suddenly,
these
are
things
that
happen
with
our
products,
and
so
it's
like
this,
it's
kind
of
fun.
D
So
that's
a
complete
hardware
base
biology,
and
so
we
were
perfectly
for
you
again
and
they're
gonna
do
Chun
Justin
in
the
classroom
and
with
the
I've
already
talked
to
them.
They
were
here
last
week
and
we're
going
to
do
another
grant
plant
stuff
and
there
with
a
sense
of
the
workshops
at
the
so
I.
A
D
A
D
D
D
A
D
Maybe
haven't
brought
the
templates
if
you
live
in
Chile
in
South
America
live
here,
and
so
the
work
of
we're
called
writing
book.
So
with
heart,
I
see
we're
moving
to
offer
books.
There's
gonna
be
Cajun
marshmallows
by
co-founder
company
way.
He
lives
in
South
America,
even
working
together
over
booth,
ox
and
yam
about
it's.
A
fifty
thousand
workbook
open.
D
Search
experiments
under
website
so
that,
but
I
think
you
see
model
for
you
is
you're
kind
of
very
similar
to
us.
So
this
is
MIT
press
and
there's
a
I
could
see
this
being
something
that
may
be
babysitting
so
that
I
can
said.
I
could
share
with
you
the
proposal
that
he
wrote
and
so
most
of
the
reason
why
I
wrote
a
grant
in
a
saying
that
you
were
going
to
publish
before
you
fit
in
phase
two
we
need.
Our
very
last
aim
was
to
make
a
book
and
I
try
talking
to
Emory
hopeful
Mifflin.
D
Like
old
school
companies,
none
of
them
are
Metuchen
us
yeah
because
nervous,
it's
just
not
are
any
of
multi
billion-dollar
field.
Yet
so
they
don't
want
that
they
don't
want
to
explore
anything.
That's
not
like
so
so.
I
had
to
go
back
down
to
my
talk.
Scientific
American
press
I
talked
to
American
president.
C
A
Is
it's
these
I
visit
them
a
new
york
say
I
forget
the
name
right
now
escapes
me,
but
I
can
do
the
book
deal
thing.
I
was
my
plan
was
to
go
ahead
with
just
a
business
development
part
cuz
right
now.
It's
okay,
kids,
3d
printers,
some
simple
things
that
we
can
sell
and
let
that
be
a
little
bit
of
a
fuel
or
proof
of
the
extreme
manufacturing
methods
that
we're
developing.
A
Now
there
is
a
very
interesting
point
there
that
I
think
we
can
prove,
and
that
is
that
with
a
distributed
organization,
I'm
really
crazy
about
this
distributed
organization.
Thing
and
I
refuse
to
go
centralized
as
in
like
start,
a
factory
I
want
to
train
individuals
who
run
small
mom-and-pop
shops,
doing
state
of
art
R&D.
A
So
the
idea
there
is
to
show
part
of
it
is
to
show
that
that
industrial
product
of
you
know
a
small
scale
like
a
one
or
small
family
business
or
small
family
business
can
do
better
than
a
typical
typical
Factory
I've
got
initial
data.
That
completely
shows
that
and
I
think
I
can
I
can
show
that,
but
I
thought
it
was
important
as
I
go
into
the
book
to
show
okay
and
here's.
A
We
collaborate
openly
on
open
product
development
with
others,
but
right
there
we're
showing
okay,
we
can't
make
the
economics
happen
and
really
compelling
way.
Cuz.
One
of
the
things
I
find
out
is
that,
of
course,
any
of
this
hippie
that
succeed
only
if
you
get
some
serious
productivity
as
a
backbone
of
any
such
operation.
C
D
D
D
C
D
C
D
D
C
D
Bit
like
foresight
this,
we
got
a
for-profit
company
that
partners
with.
Did
you
apparently
do
a
really
good
job
of
really
focusing
at
how
you're
gonna?
How
do
you
get
you're?
Never
this
idea
into
something
that
it's
tough
right.
So
that's
a!
We
did
that
from
the
neuro
robot
and
some
spear
dust,
robot
stuff.
D
A
D
We
first
started
it
obvious
things
you
actually
muskie
and
so
I
built
every
board
the
first
year
and
I
would
say:
handles
cut
the
wood,
we're
literally
cut
wood
and
we
squish
over
cheap
plastic
laser
cut
stuff.
That
was
easier.
So
our
production
unit
now
has
not
changed
that
much
for
that
day.
So
we
still
laser
cut
the
sandwich,
which
also
looks
very
wide.
D
What
has
happened
is
we've
reduced
the
cost
significantly,
but
what
it
costs
we
did
that
until
the
first
hire
we
did
was
a
production
person,
production
manager
and
they
would
they
were
hiring
people
on
a
makerspace
to
assemble
these
kids,
and
we
didn't
overdo
it
per
part-
is
that
it
was
something
we
could
wrap
our
heads
around.
So
you
know
we
cost
us
five
dollars
of
flavored
with
this
part
and
sell
for
$50,
also
slow,
20
bucks
for
parts.
D
Then
you
know
so
we
didn't
have
in
the
first,
maybe
two
and
a
half
years
three
years,
I'd
say
my
part
to
get
a
manager
that
was
kind
of
managing,
and
then
you
realize
that
he's
the
production
sergeant
well,
it
was
really
stupid
to
be
paying.
People
like
are
people
getting
so
much
faster
at
it
of
years,
and
then
we
couldn't
get
them
to
do
other
new
are
deduction.
I
have
some
product
with
me:
I'm
figure
out
the
price.
So
then
we
switch
to
an
hourly
rate.
D
D
D
But
they
do
help
us
in
marketing.
So
what
so,
for
example,
those
$10,000
notes
only
about
we
don't
pay
those
at
NSTA
and
any
reserve.
These
are.
These
are
big
big
booths
of
which
were
small,
a
section
of
that,
but
we
get
to
talk
to
a
lot
of
customers
and
we
give
demos
give
out
our
current,
but
we
don't
pay
that's
possible
on
there.