Open Source Ecology Podcast, 3 Jul 2020

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From YouTube: Tools for Peak Experience with Victor Shamas.

Description

Victor studies creative inspiration. Just did a podcast with him, Nature Am I. Check out his TEDx at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSaNEcNprzw and more notes on his interview at https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Victor_Shamas

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A

Operation versus competition, etc, I'm.

B

A

I would like to to know more about your overall big picture. Yeah.

C

A great question to start with overall big picture I mean it's. You can say the technology part is kind of misleading because we're not really after technology but as far as evolving to freedom like in talking about the very big thing so, but at the same time, in order to have a democratic society, you need to have democratic technology and I could get into how I arrived at that conclusion. But but right now our technology is not really serving human needs, and that's one thing we need to correct.

C

We talk a lot about pressing world issues. What are those well? Certainly the technological infrastructure, the Technosphere in general, needs to serve people better and for us, that's that's just minding our own business, open sourcing, the blueprints for critical machines, production machines and technology in general by taking technology and saying hey. This is a modular set of items. It's got a bunch of building blocks like Legos, we're gonna take those which are which of that which are about 500 elements about.

C

We have the global village Construction Set, which is 50 different machines, but you can break them down further into more underlying pattern. Language of about 500 items, we're saying, hey, let's open sources the distributed economy is, is an idea. That's that's a good idea. It's worth pursuing. We live in a centralized world and we need to democratize things.

C

We need to do a little better on some things, namely correcting the last frontier of economics, which is we've self production is not not a question of how abundantly we can produce and whether there's enough resources, because the Sun gives us much more power than we need, but the net. The last frontier is the distribution of that wealth to all the world's people for Prosperity. It's so that's that goes back to the freedom I talked about, which is what we're after.

A

There's also an ecological aspect, just the fact that you referring to an open source, ecology, which I'm not sure is ecology. You're referring to is, is the same ecology that I'm thinking about, but the you have talked about eco side and and safeguarding the environment yeah. So how do you see this movement I into this issues? Yeah.

C

Absolutely so, ecology refers to the integration of human and natural ecosystems here, so ecology is greater than the standard word. Ecology people use people typically use that to refer to natural ecosystems. Here we talk about the blend of that plus the Technosphere, which are all part of the greater ecology of how things work.

A

So you have these 50 machines that make up the global village Construction Set. How did you come about this? How did you settle upon those 50 particular machines, yeah.

C

Well, you can go. You can actually see that see the reference on that on the wiki, which is the product selection metric, but when you think about it initially, when I thought about Italy, it's like what are some of the critical enabling technologies that make for prosperity. So came up with a few criteria such as has to be very important, such as a billion dollar, at least as far as market. It has to be somewhat scarce in the sense that it's either expensive or hard to attain.

C

It has to be ecological and well, basically, the that that's getting into the properties of the actual, how we design things but as a basic selection metric is a highly relevant technology means huge market, and that would help the most people and we looked at simply the critical infrastructure building tools, assuming that we need to survive and thrive, survive from natural resources. That's once again going back to the ecology. So what are the most critical enabling tools that take us from dirt and twigs into civilization, and that's how the list was come up with?

C

You can look at the details of that on the product selection metric on the wiki, so.

A

There's a metric: does that mean that the choice of the components of that construction set can be modified or have a evolved over time since East.

C

Oh yeah yeah, and actually that's that's a good question because it's not like all of this is absolutely it. This is the 50 things that are there period. It's actually somewhat like a business where the first thing you learn you you modify. You know, you start correcting things, but no I mean the system has been largely the same, except for some minor tweaks in it like, for example, we have added the house to that, because that is the number one cost of living.

C

It can be considered a machine or a technology or whole system, it's a more product system, but we added that, for example, and took out like initially, for example, we had the boundary layer turbine as a an easy way to the essentially the Tesla turbine in there, but we've since replaced that so just little tweaks, but other than that. You've got machines for making energy for producing technologies, for doing agriculture, for construction and producing some critical materials. But it's not set in stone, because the thing is, are you still there? Can you hear me still.

C

B

A

C

The crashing, so we might expect this a couple of times, but the to answer whether howhow fixed is the global village. Construction said you learn some things you might modify things, but the biggest idea there was actually to just get started.

C

We know that we need to put shelter around us to have food to eat, have basic technologies to make for prosperity, so start by saying: okay, simply what are the most critical things and the best best way to accomplish those things, so naturally, things like a tractor or a computer-controlled milling machine, wind turbine or solar energy.

C

Other things like that they're in this set some of the things that I looked for, especially things that were like either expensive or not easy to get our just, maybe not well designed just things that are gaps in our society yeah, but then, for example, put in a bicycle because you know this bicycles are quite abundant and it's not really a great power struggle over bicycles. Going on today.

A

Well, that's great now I'm going to ask you a little bit about the open source model for how these products are are constructed and evolved, attentionally yeah! So it's the team idea is a wiki or any kind of an open source thing. The software where a group of people each person contributes something and you build on each other's work, is.

C

That is that accurate.

A

C

Accurate, the open source refers to a development methodology is essentially that whatever you're doing you're simply leaving a paper trail of documentation, blueprints documents that allow anybody to see where you are and then then it comes in to the licensing of who actually owns that information and the licenses. We typically use their Creative Commons licenses, but basically they're saying you can do whatever you like. With this, you can examine it. You can copy it, you can modify it, you can sell it.

C

That is a big one and actually the the definition of open-source involves economic freedom. The idea that you can build upon this to make a living, which is a great motivator for a lot of people, yeah.

A

So these machines people could build them in their local communities or I'm, assuming they could actually purchase some of them get organization. Yeah.

C

Yeah so that we publish everything online, there's a page of replications on a wiki people have taken our blueprints like, for example, a long time ago, 2011 or so 2012. First guy took them downloaded our blueprints completely independently built the brick press. There's been several builds of the tractor and other machines, but that's one way, and then we also actually sell them. We the way we like, for example, right now we're selling 3d printers that you can go on on our website and click buy.

C

We also have another way we sell things which is through immersion experience workshops. So that means we get a bunch of people to build the Seabee press, the brick press one-ton machine in a single weekend, so we've learned how to do these collaborative builds. Swarm builds with a lot of people where we not only produce the machine, but it could also sell it. So there's revenue both from the actual tuition or a product sale, and that's that's the beauty of these. We see that a lot of potential for this.

C

This kind of barn, raising, Amish, barn, raising style kind of build model were you're helping. One another like if you want to knock off the kill off the housing problem. Let's get swarm, builds to build and build a whole micro house community in a city for the homeless or whatever, so we're designing our processes for two routes. One is essentially for industrial, like production and to because we're making it accessible, focusing on access accessibility, we're designing in such a way that you can build things with very simple tools and techniques.

C

So, for example, in our printer, you can take that into a mega factory and start cranking, those out or you can put them into a small garage workshop and have the same efficiency. In fact, probably better efficiency in a small scale than you would in the largest, so we're designing it always designed for fabrication for us means that people have easy access to building these things, including swarm, like crowd, based, builds.

A

With the 3d printer, how much these machines is being built using 3d printing? How.

C

Many of these machines- well so actually right now strategically with the 3d printer, is actually the first product that you actually click by on our website. For but the idea there is plastic is a very common material. It's like 1/3, the material economy. You know, there's plastic! This is steel. There's ceramic three like metals, plastics, ceramics kind of like biomass, maybe four categories of materials and everything is made up, but plastic is important.

C

So the relevance of the plastic is that you can make parts for other machines like, for example, we use the 3d printers to print parts for more 3d printers, or we can print parts such as the seat for the tractor or the control panel or the rubber tracks.

C

Yes, that is right. We're saying: okay, let's take these printers from hobby entertainment to real production using recycled feedstocks. So that's one of the top priorities to develop the plastic recycling right now, so we can print our rubber tracks for the tractors and that's completely doable. Now, if you buy off-the-shelf plastic, that's a little expensive, it costs 20 bucks or, like 10 bucks, a pound, that's very expensive.

C

So once you can actually start making your own filament from waste stream you're talking about a few cents per pound, an electricity cost that it takes to process then plus your labor. But then you have affordable route to plastic for larger things like plastic lumber, larger things like rubber tracks, which are rubber, is another thermoplastics chicken print. So so, to summarize you're asking: how is this 3d printer important for other stuff, I believe yeah? It you can make a lot of different parts, including very complex, geometries glazing like poly carbonate, can print and nylon.

C

You can print gears. So there's a lot of things you can do or if you actually 3d printing is a very generic process. If you put a one, technology is called wire arc additive manufacturing, it's basically taking a MIG welder or a welder head, put it on the printer and now you're printing in full metal. Now that doesn't have the super precision, but you can definitely now talk about. You see the megawatt I keep thinking about this. How do we use this?

C

The welder based 3d printer to build the tower of your wind tower that basically just going around and around and up and up 100% metal technology, metal technology suit. So that's definitely useful for bulk parts like gears or tractor parts or structural frame members, lots of potentially parts the.

A

Parts of your machine: how much of the components are you making yourselves.

C

Right now not a lot like, for example, we buy right now we buy everything, we buy steel, we buy plastic and then but the whole mission is, is called recursion. That's technological recursion, the fact that you're starting to go go back into the the actual feedstocks so especially with the coven right now that made us focus on it quite a bit more. But the global village construction set does include things like here's, your bio plastic production or things like plastic recycling.

C

She can take the abundant feedstocks or metal recycling with the induction furnace and hot metal, Rawling we're actually making virgin steel from scrap plastic. We haven't gotten there yet, but that's definitely part of the agenda. So then, with the CNC machines in the set you can, you can do precision machining to make engine parts. That's that's in a set, but at this point we're not there yet we're we.

C

We now buy parts off the shelf, but in the completions of the 20:28 is the cutoff for finishing all of this, which means we've got some good work to do. We are about 33% done, but that's all upcoming that we can make literally the advanced civilization from dirt and twigs under our feet.

A

Because I've seen that you have one of the these machines, be an aluminum extractor that actually takes aluminium out of soil.

A

The idea is- and you could actually even creep- develop a melon source elf, that the metal raw metal from which these parts are going to be created, and are you envisioning also a kind of a closed-loop system where you can take the old parts you can take the machines apart, recycle, reuse, reconstruct all the parts on them and the different modules. Absolutely.

C

Absolutely so so we use a highly modular approach like, for example, if you look at our tractor frames, they're all this box being tubing with holes and that can be completely reused for other things, like a frame for a torch table frame for a bulldozer frame for another machine or anything else. So the recyclability like on a modular Lego level, that's one, the other one is that you're taking that and melting it down, shredding it and melting it down. So that applies to plastic.

C

Alright, let's try it again, so there.

A

Is like I see some.

C

Melting things down yeah, Mel gate, yes, so three levels of recycling one is one: is you reuse the parts by modular design like Legos 2, you melt, you grind them and shred them and melt them down, such as plastic and metal. Steel, that's included, and then the third level is designed for product Ecology's that the which is kind of including a lego approach but designed for product ecology. Is that one part feeds into another. Another, like one part, is a feedstock for another.

C

So it's a complete I mean you said it: the circular economy, local material supply chains, which means that I'm on a 30 acre farm. That means that even from the raw materials right under my feet, I can create entire civilization and that's that's true. You've got aluminosilicate for making, which is clay for making aluminum or compressed earth blocks. You have wood out of which derives as a chemist. You know that all of the synthetic chemistry comes out of biomass and carbon. You have things like sand.

C

If you take silicon dioxide and reduce it, you've got silicon, which is the digital age. So that's all doable and it's a question of access, so we're basically saying let's push the limits. What let's do this experiment? Is it actually possible to do all that and do that efficiently and the things we've been finding out is that, as I mentioned in the TED talk, industrial productivity can be achieved on a small scale. So what are the limits of that.

A

Well, it's it's awesome, and so the idea is first of all, you have modularity, so you can take parts out of one machine insert it into various other machines, and then you probably I'm guessing don't have the issue of planned obsolescence that you see with commercial products like if I go, buy a cordless drill out there and a year later, I have to throw it away. I'm, guessing that your your machinery doesn't have those issues absolutely.

C

So you you took the words right out of my mouth here: I think that one of the greatest value propositions of open-source is lifetime design, one by the fact that you can know what's in there, so you can take. We can get replacement parts but they're out other aspects like designing it for disassembly, designing it for lifetime. So I think that lifetime design is a huge value, and specifically it's interesting. You say that, because right now we're working out.

C

What would our lifetime guarantee look like on a printer, because if you look at it okay, the frame, that's steel, I can completely reuse, recycle the steel members they're, not even welded they've got 3d printed corners connecting them and that's by design. So we can completely recycle both the plastic and the steel as far as the other components. We are this because we're designing it for the minimum parts count and maximum part interchangeability the simplest parts. You can get anywhere common off-the-shelf parts. Yes, that's an effective lifetime design warranty, which means I mean I.

C

Looked at this like for printers the warranties there are like one or two years marks. My experience with 3d printers I've had some off-the-shelf printers that pretty much after a couple of years. Okay, so it wears out, say the controller burned out. Well, it's like a few hours just to take out the part that broke.

C

You know it's just by the way they're designed because they're so complex, it's literally unfeasible to service them and that's a lack of design thinking. It's the same issue that I've seen an attractor that started it all. It's the thing that when I took that tractor to repair because it broke it takes 8 hours just to crack the entire tractor open to get out get at this part and I paid 2,000 bucks for the repair and broke it and broke again. Two weeks later, I should forget.

C

This I cannot make a sustainable civilization like I noticed that pattern is a science like this is crazy. It doesn't have to be designed like that. It is designed like that, because I would say in general, the centralized industry is very inefficient from from various perspectives and the the efficiency of lifetime design. That's just not enough in the equation for companies. Typically so yeah yeah a lifetime design is a huge positive point. You get out of open source.

A

The other part of design that it seems like engineering and a lot of corporations, don't do it that you that you implied was they only design halfway through the process up until you're using it, and the thing breaks in now that there's the other half of the life time of the machine which is now what happens to those parts? Do.

B

A

Get how do they get broken-down reused? So, have you thought about when you, when you sell something that you basically will offer people that they can return it back when it's not working to you yeah, so.

B

They reconstruct.

A

Reuse, absolutist.

C

Because we're using generic and always and designing things to retain their value like components that can be taken out in their entirety and basically you retain about eighty to a hundred percent of that materials value. Yes, so simply put how about a warranty where, for the rest of your life as long as you decide ship it back, we'll, send you a replacement. That's where we're going I think we can do exactly that.

A

Do you see that the production of these machines will happen at a local regional level? It is. Is that the intention that there will be small factories- yes, maybe maybe garage yeah, donkey.

C

Yes, the generic answer to that is the open source micro factory, which is a community based manufacturing facility. It's like a like a equivalent of the community, supported agriculture for manufacturing, so a facility right now we have a prototype facility here, that's about 4,000 square feet, but something on the order of under 10,000 square feet where you've got advanced digital fabrication infrastructure where he can produce just about anything delivering the promise.

C

That's been laid out a long time ago by, like Neil Gershenfeld from the fab labs talks about that promise or fab cities talk about communities that that produce all they consume.

C

Yes, specifically we're talking about an ambitious plan after 2028 to replicate massively worldwide, as in these facilities that have the micro factories an essential component, so 10,000 to 30,000, basically one in every city, basically getting to the equivalent of a Walmart instead of a Walmart you've got a production of the city where you can either buy things that are already made for you or you can participate in that build experience. If you want to learn more about it, that's that's the model, we're thinking.

A

That you can receive the training to actually develop the skills to build it yourself.

C

Oh man and that's where it gets just beautiful because on our website, which we're gonna put up pretty soon, it's gonna be you can buy product or you can buy production. We'll train you, you are our friend. There is no such thing as competition, the more people are doing it, the more wealth is getting distributed and more development happens on a product, and that's so that's gonna be beautiful.

A

And it's it's so exciting, and one of the things that we know about ourselves as a culture is that people have lost a lot of skills, that basic skills that you and I can fix. Our own house fix on cars or whatever it is yeah.

C

A

Most of our people, don't.

C

Do that anymore, ya know, that's absolutely right and the grant grant more grant rent I was just reading about this. Today is the financialization that's a term on Wikipedia, but basically we're turning from being real producers to symbolic analysts and financial people. That's that's a formula for collapse. All the societies that have done that today have collapsed from the Dutch Empire to the romanum. So far, once you get away from essential production, that's that's trouble, but it's just a very natural thing. We are very much connected to.

C

We have a yearning for being productive and fundamentally creative and there's no more powerful and easy way to access that by than by physical production. So I think a lot of people are just very much hungry for it and that skill is disappearing like with the Millennials new younger generations, who don't get a chin they're, just not taught to make things outside of more the digital technologies. Yeah are.

A

You seeing part of your vision is to create more literacy among the population, interpretive mechanical literacy being able oh yeah.

C

A

Be presenting I.

C

Mentioned that we believe that appropriate technology or sustainable regenitive technology is a prerequisite for democracy. You cannot have a democracy without it. We also believe that part of that.

C

I'm back so I believe that I believe that prerequisite for democracy is a sound technological base. I believe that a prerequisite for a sound technological base is a technologically literate public and that's actually exactly what we're starting right. Now we started the program of the open source micro factory steam camps, but the goal is to create a collaboratively literal literate public that can design and build things on a massive scale. That means not not something that now you're dirty job workers and some other people do, but something that's.

C

That's that's acceptable to the more white-collar people. That's still exotic and interesting. As the production comes back into communities from the remote of remote centralized production facilities, it can be, it has to happen, because that's the only way we're going to start caring about the environment, because we just relegate that too far away. We don't care what happens there. It's not visible part of that. Transition to circular economies is ecological integrity because we cannot soil the the nature that provides all this to us.

A

So that's why economic localization you've said on your website is a path to safeguarding the environment. Oh it's because we're making this locally we have. We can't do it in a way that spills toxins into the waterways or damages the environment in any number of ways. Right I mean we're living.

C

With it, that's exactly right and that's simply introducing a a direct feedback loop regarding the true cost and true effect of our technological usage. That has to be visible. So we're producing transparency like in our mission, a world of collaborative design for a transparent and inclusive economy of abundance.

A

That is very exciting, marcin, so I know you have you had written this because you wrote it to me in an email yeah, you wrote, OSE specifications are essentially natural wrong and that statement entreat me very much and I'd like to know what you meant by that.

C

Natural law I mean there are some natural laws, such as I, don't know like gravity or the fact that nature like, if you look at where wealth comes from it's from nature, right all the resources that we have the rocks sunlight plants, soil, water, all the economy comes from that so natural laws, that's like natural law. That's we have to start caring about the environment.

C

We have to start designing technology, the weight, okay, so technology is the way we take that environment and turn it into what we're doing right now into this computer that we're sitting on so that question of law comes natural law following natural law means following more natural principles of how you do things with technology. Technology means economic power. Economic power leads to the legal system and so forth. So there's this whole loop of okay, there's, there's nature, there's technology, there's economy and politics where I think.

C

If you talk about the governance, you got to start it. Here's nature, here's how we take take care of nature and how we follow its principles to create our technological system, which then creates our legal economic systems. So that means things like lifetime design, ecological design. Just like a major biomimicry or the things that there's no such thing as waste I mean those are just basic principles. All derives from natural law. How things work in nature, I know that helps clarify or I miss some things. Yes,.

A

Yes, so, and you have no such thing is waste. That's a huge challenge. I mean this technology work. We're on right now is going to end up in a landfill and and some of those materials that made up this technology is really precious minerals, a transaction from the earth yeah, and they that were extracted at a very high human cost, not to mention ecological cost. Yeah.

B

A

Do you see this vision of yours as being able to down the road resolve that, where there really.

C

A

C

Absolutely that's just a mind shift it's just it's a mental construct, this concept of waste we created it. We can get rid of it. You also mention it's my my thing. It's. This is not mine, I'm, just borrowing from all the Giants that came before about people who create a technology who created ideas like democracy or invented electricity or whatever. So this builds upon all prior knowledge, but the thing is: if you study chemistry, well, chemistry, green chemistry says that any any chemically destructive process you can do.

C

You can do in an in an ecologically sane way and that's happening. Smart businesses, businesses, they're, eliminating waste are starting to do that. It's a complete choice. We have I, could point to some examples like Oh.

C

Plastic well, the plastic example: all the plastic bins have been in a waste stream. No you take the shredder grind, all your stuff, all the waste which is gonna, be like 50% of your garbage. Okay. So take a look at your garbage. Biomass goes in your compost. Heap plastic goes into the plastic. Shredder makes plastic filament that you can turn into plastic lumber or some other useful good. Like the casing for the computer you're using or a cordless drill, the rest metals, you melt them down, recycle them. What's left nothing!

C

It's like this biomass, there's plastic, there's metal, then you've got pretty much all your garbage, so part of the deal for our campuses. The OSE campuses like this is our prototype campus of 30 acres, which is in progress. We don't have a campus yet, but let's do that. We're building soil now we're making useful products we're recycling the metals to more machines. So the idea is: how do we make that easy? How do we make that practical? It's it's completely doable!

C

So yes, absolutely the question the answer: there is it's a piece of cake, I mean it just requires for us to to comprehend that hey, let's do it when we do this, so that means we shift away from whatever others are telling us that it's impossible or just a mental model. You just said which is: oh, it's not possible to have no waste ridiculous nature. Does it we're part of nature? Let's do it period.

A

Biomimicry folks save it in standard industrial manufacturing. The focus is on B eat and treat and they're trying to develop methods of manufacture. That don't involve that because sorry.

C

Rico Edelman to do what yeah.

A

It really create people say that standard industrial processes use involve beet heat and streets. Okay,.

C

A

That they're, basically arguing that living systems don't do that and they they make things from at ambient temperatures from materials that are readily available and.

B

A

Byproducts that basically go right back as food or at the very least as something inert you.

B

A

The environment and as somebody who's, not a technologist I find it overwhelming to think that, but that we can get fast enough to the point where we're manufacturing the way that living organisms and you factors.

B

A

See else etc, but what what strikes me in your in your work is that you're bringing together there's some pretty remarkable people who have some technical skills? Do you think that any of these challenges, when you bring the right group of folks together and they tackle them are, are doable are attainable in a relatively short period of time? You set.

C

Me up for the another topic here, which is called extreme enterprise, but the the summary of it is what we've been experimenting with throughout the decade of our work is how do you get rapid collaborative design processes happening? Well? Why to answer you know to start answering. The question is like we think that we're collaborating, but we're not like there's not a lot of collaboration that happens in practice, so the promises like software has shown what happens when you do have large people large numbers of people- collaborate. Yes, I!

C

Do think that if you bring in all the interests together, you can absolutely solve it, but you have to examine how it happens right now. You will have one company that claims to be the greenest.

A

So you were saying how it happens right now, how.

C

It is right now and why we think this is so intractable. It's because of the way things happen so so take a look at, for example, pick whatever name the greenest most progressive chemistry company, the greenest chemistry company in the world, with at most state of art things or the most advanced biological waste water processing system.

C

Well, guess what all that stuff is proprietary and unshared take a look at the hundred or thousand companies that that buy to be in that space. What have they all worked together? So that is the first thing we need to get past the idea that we have something special and we're gonna basically make that thing scarce so that we can benefit from that, so the world can benefit and we can benefit economically. It's a very crappy idea.

C

It's that's the dominant idea right now, so let's replace that by saying how what, if we all collaborate and actually solve bigger issues, not let's not just solve for that problem- let's come together with other people and solve for an even bigger problem, and that's how you're gonna get things things done now. Admittedly, that is extremely hard. It requires a lot of personal evolution on one side, as in you have to have a strong self-esteem to be vulnerable to work openly. You're gonna have to face critique and open this.

C

That's called vulnerability like brené Brown right, that's a prerequisite. It gets into self-esteem, so unless you're very strong internally, you're gonna be like scared in a corner working by yourself. So we have to evolve very much on our psychological level. There's also this level where I think what happens is what I kind of observe is once you start talking about open source products, some people just shut down literally just get really afraid like how am I gonna make a living they they get into the flight or for our fight-or-flight response with their reptilian brain.

C

So that kind of that issue has to be addressed and that's what we're working on we're, not we're not working directly on those issues, we're saying: okay, let's show some examples of where we can. We know those are prerequisites, but let's show some examples where this is actually doable and a good example of this so I do want to bring up. The idea of the difficult continue on a difficulty is very difficult to bring a product to market and software. It's much easier in hardware. You need millions to do the prototyping.

C

Every single bug and detail means another prototype. You need to refine that cost million dollars millions to develop any product. We have to address that issue and the fact is, it just takes an immense extreme effort, a lot of resource to bring something to market. So how do you do that in open source?

C

The sad answer is actually nobody's solved that yet there's some evidence that this happens in software. But if you look at all the projects, you can still critique it as well. It took took it quite a bit of time to do that. It took way longer like, for example, even for Linux to come about was probably like a decade before it become became a really mmm formidable force. It took a few years to get to like where it started getting supported by companies, but there's a lot of effort there for hardware.

C

That's even more difficult and we've got 200 years of industrial proprietary history, so it's extremely difficult. So how do you do this very hard? Dart hints of that and open hardware and I should point this out the 3d printer. Once the patent ran out, everyone start producing open-source 3d printers the open-source RepRap project came about, and now 3d printing is the responsible for most of the companies that are out there right now. Most of that industry, a 500 million dollar industry desktop. My additive manufacturing is about 500 million.

C

That's pretty much due to the patents running out and the open source RepRap project that we generalize here. Yet nobody really noticed that hey, hey, open source did all that. Well, nobody really noticed it took a long time, maybe like a decade to get to this point.

C

So no no single example of where you have like in a corporate research and development department, where you take like six months to a year, maybe develop some product like a cordless drill or maybe a year or two for a car I, don't know how much how long it takes, but we have to basically do something of that magnitude in order to to show that okay, open-source can do that. So our latest ideas, what I call it's called extreme enterprise.

C

So we've recognized that yes, we can build things fast, but it still it's a long time to developing.

C

So we're trying to say: okay, let's take like two hundred to a thousand people or two thousand people create a very careful collaboration architecture based on standard principles of product design, using agile techniques and open-source, and let's do that where we not only develop the design but also the marketization product ization of it, meaning the website marketing assets, the value proposition like all those business things that can end up like here's, a both the design and the Production Engineering, the tooling everything else production your team develop that how about we?

C

Do that over a weekend, let's get two thousand people together. So actually we're saying: let's try that experiment. It's probably gonna cost us a hundred thousand dollars to do that, but a lot of it will be around this. We have not done this yet, but a lot of this will be around. Let's find people who are open, let's allocate roles and kind of kick ass in a way that has never been done before and I think this is doable and you might ask well why doesn't GM or somebody who's got the deep pockets.

C

Just go nuts like this and and get everybody around the table to do that and I think without the higher mission or the greater benefit for all I. Don't think you can really do that I, don't think you can pay for that process. There's there's an element of it. That's that's about people going in there with their goodwill in some way, um but it's it can be. It has to be based around developing real things. I still don't have a clear answer for you like why. Why say?

C

Gm cannot do this, but I think a lot of the reason revolves around the idea of collaborative literacy. They can even fathom the idea that what we're developing something that's open to everybody that now anybody can take and make a business out of that, because for us, when we do that extreme enterprise event, we're gonna, say: ok, upfront, an organization of that we're gonna, say: ok, who are the 50 or 100, or a thousand people who want to actually get into business, producing that and we'll make note of that and work towards doing that.

C

So we're saying I'm, gonna radically distribute that say, say the production of industry, standard, cordless, drills, okay, say we develop that so, instead of five companies making 80% of the worldwide drills of a ten billion dollar market, we say: okay, now we spewed forth all these open-source people doing distributed production. Can we do that? I? Don't think it happens right now, because it's beyond the the consciousness of a standard organization to do that it has to come from a start-up like us. That's my thing. Thinking on it.

A

And part of that startup, what you said before was that people are coming to work with you because they're inspired by your vision. Yes- and it's not about just you- know, doing a job and earning a living. It's about you know touching people's hearts and and their minds and and making them realize wow. There's power in this, but yeah one of.

C

The things that I don't get about this.

A

This way of design yeah is, let's say you and I are designing. Let's say we're working on the same module for the same machinery and you design something and I come in and I say, wait a second I I. Think I can do this better and I come up with a variant dan. Now in now there has to be some decision made about whose version is more workable. Well, I I've always wondered with wiki's, and things like that.

A

Do we do people just end up undoing each other's work when they layer some element on top of another? How does it? How does it get to the crap best in IIST user design? So.

C

It goes back to the governance question natural law, so there's so. First of all, we follow OSE specifications, which is which is a list of like 50 to 100 principles and people coming into that environment have to be aware of that and the more familiar they are with that. That will provide criteria based judgment on your design choices, but the cool thing is.

A

Criterion based judgment I'm going to hear about this I will.

C

Provide criteria.

A

C

So you have to argue about it. You go back to your principle, okay, so somebody principle number one could be modularity. Okay, so say you got two people, butting heads and one one guy says: oh, this is actually better because it's more modular than other guys's better.

C

You can take that particular principle and evaluate against that by certain checks and quantitative score, and you can actually go through that through more of the principles, so you eventually in effect, would theoretically come up with something that works, and this is where, like it gets into like artificial intelligence, that you can even get that through artificial intelligence.

C

But first you have to start with the principles but okay, so that's principle based governance, okay, but let's back up to how we run the agile process, sure get those get ten versions of the same thing start with that, and then we could put in a governance structure such as okay. Now that now we then sit and sit around the table, and assuming that we are honest, integral individuals we will discuss, it say it which is better.

C

These are our criteria in front of us right here, which is going to be the winner and we come together and that's that may be the hard part, but there could be heavyweight project management. That's one approach we can in in our contest. We say: okay, well, we're gonna, have these scrum masters or process a product owners or say the people that we're gonna say: ok, the people that actually in this game to start the manufacturing business out of this they're gonna say well.

C

Why don't we decide because we're going to be producing these, so you guys are designing here arguing. So so you have to create a process, and that's that's indeed the challenge, that's what we're saying, but we can say: ok, there's certain development steps, there's certain roles in that development process and we can agree to certain principles of how we operate, starting with fundamental design, principles based on natural law and then go out of the well. You say: okay, how does the wiki, for example, get edited, so you don't have conflicts?

C

Well, typically, you have maintainer x'. The idea there is that people with reputation tend to weed out and upgrade collectively the best, the best content, it's somewhat of a myth on Wikipedia. In that the way I understand it is that most of the editors are actually paid. I think the way the way it works is you have a paid staff that are the maintainer x' I know, there's a lot of volunteer contributions, but I think that there's a lot that's also paid for. So it's not it's.

C

It is a good example, but it's it's not like this free fall for all, like people, think there's thirty million dollars paid to staff every year to make sure the thing moves forward. So you have to have elements of organizational structure in that process, but the general principle is like say: you've got those ten people we can. If we want to say well how about it. If all of us say that this is actually better and we're we're reputable in some way, we can say: okay, the guy. That's got this crazy idea.

C

Now, sorry guy, we can maybe do like some kind of a majority base thing, but of course we never want to deny the minority I mean. That's that's a crime that happens today a lot, but with ideas through collective wisdom. You can like there's going to be like all this peppering of activity in general, you have to say that the things that actually work are gonna have to rise to the top. Otherwise you have anarchy or chaos happening.

C

So that's that's a big question, but I think that the general idea that's accepted in the crowd development process, is that there's generally more good people than evil people or people that, like contributions, are worthwhile, they tend to rise to the top. That's how, for example, Stack Exchange works, and it does a great job at that. So there are examples of how you can do that and get absolute best content to the top.

C

That's up voting to things like up voting, so you have to put in all those kinds of mechanisms in there which are addressed by the digital economy. There are tools to do that.

A

You've brought some of these machines to prototype order and beyond that, yeah I'm, assuming where they're actually functional marketable yeah, and in that process of doing that, did you have to be the benevolent dictator at times and say this. This is the piece that rises to the top, or this is the module or yeah our design feat, I.

C

Mean you can say: I was both the product manager and product owner because I'm I'm, the guy building him like. If it's the brick press, it was me who did the first prototype. Therefore, I kind of have more authority than others like say, a guy who just came in for version 3 and I've been at it for a longer time, I kind of see have more primacy and it's kind of its kind of the meritocracy concept.

C

Yes, but yes, the idea is that I never yeah, and sometimes you have to just basically say now. This is the way it is because, naturally, so because I'm gonna build it, if you are gonna build it, you have no authority to tell me how I should build it right. So a word that comes out in the wash right, yes and a lot of times. It's it's like you know, there's established people on a project, they have a general good working pattern and they get along and then they kind of carry it forward.

C

But benevolent dictatorship is a good idea if it's married based yeah, so I do like that. Have.

A

You seen different variations of the same machine built by different people exactly.

C

That's so the second part of benevolent dictatorship is that anyone is welcome to derive their own. The plans are completely open-source. You don't like it for kit, meaning just copy it and build your own, no problem. So so one of these issues are actually resolved because the code is open. So it's not like I'm I have the code that I'm telling you well. You got to do it exactly like this, no you're free to modify this one of the four of open-source.

C

So a lot of those arguments, kind of go away and say somebody wants to make an enterprise completely in our view like make it like super hard to build or proprietary. Well, they're welcome to do that too. They can go away in the corner and do that, so we don't discriminate against area of endeavor. That's part of the freedoms of open-source as.

A

We wind down this conversation, March and I, want to talk a little bit about what kinds of initiatives can be implemented to bring this technology to our our local community. Yeah I learned about your work through discussions of community resilience yeah. The idea is that beyond sustainability, now we're in a situation where the entire world feels a crisis at the same time as pandemic has shown us and that in those situations, global supply chains can be compromised.

A

All kinds of problems can arise and in in that happening, the need to figure out how to make our community resilience so that a supply chains or compromise or the global economy is in collapse. Let's say: there's still an opportunity for for people to do something at the local level. Have you given thought to how communities like mine could could start with? This could come up with some strategies for implementing some of this on a local level.

C

Well, so that starts with having products right, so you have to take something that already exists. That's in a mature enough state that you can replicate now. How do you go about that because we think about this issue all the time? Well, how can people do this and the challenge is that it takes immense amounts of skill sets kind of skill. Sets that we don't have. We don't get taught how to build things or how to collaborate with people.

C

So it's very difficult like, for example, right now, just to give you an example right now in the open building Institute one of our collaborations, our projects, we did the CD Cajon we've got some other models of fully designed structures.

C

One is completely free and has all the all the technical documentation required to replicate it exactly. We have that for the aquaponic greenhouse and guess how many replications are there zero? It takes.

A

A little video set, nobody has done that yet.

C

Is to replicate it if you have seen our aquaponic greenhouse that's.

A

Attached to you to the eco home yep, the house that you built yeah.

C

Some of those glamour shots of the of the aquaponic greenhouse those are real. Well right now we took down the green house for the next.

C

Sorry about that, the my glamour, shots of the aquaponic greenhouse or the CT go home are not photoshopped. That is reality now why, if the promise is such an amount of design, integration is so intense. Has nobody done it? Well, it's a question of entrepreneurial savvy. How do you do that in a feasible business model? That makes sense now that means product development and that's the phase rot. We've got these amazing prototypes and those are prototypes prior to being an actual business. You can still call that a prototype.

C

It's so good working beta release, release candidate, ready for pilot projects ready to be replicated in other locations, but it ain't easy, that's the thing. So what we're doing right now is starting that.

B

C

The perennial question: that's plagued us for the last decade: why are we not finding tons of amazing people and entrepreneurs just run with it? That's what I thought would happen in 2008 when we first did the production grade ready model of the brick press. How many people have started businesses on the brick press, zero?

C

B

Clean yourselves right.

C

We, you can say we have somewhat of a businesses and we build the machines and we build houses with it. But it's the question of entrepreneurial savvy product ization.

C

That thing that's the long last mile from the prototype to the product. So what.

A

We're doing about it right now is.

B

We're actually showing Aussie.

C

Chapters and we're saying.

B

C

With a product that we know, we can sell the 3d printer so right now we're actually taking people in for a one to two year program where we teach you absolutely everything of how you produce that and start an LSE chapter and another location. So people are interested in doing that. That's a realistic opportunity right now! Contact me if you can.

B

Find somebody in your community that wants to make state of art.

C

3D printers that are modular and scalable, it's only the beginning that are already a good product. Come to us and we'll teach you there's a revenue model behind that and we're making that absolutely clear.

C

So we train people, you start with something: that's a bootstrap abou revenue model that can sustain the rest of the operation, because it's still development until 2028 and of course it will be forever.

A

C

Is a very explicit milestone of getting all the technologies down to the product level, so we can provide a kind of training and how does this work so the with the way the 3d printers work? We worked it out and we talked about extreme manufacturing, very efficient product production tool chains. So.

A

C

B

Way, it's designed, it would take you about a week.

C

Of time to produce about twenty printers easily, not a problem, we can show you the Production Engineering day by day task by task. So that's your, for example, spending one week per month doing some basic production duty, such as the 3d printers and then 50% of the time you have for research and development, and the last 25% is discretionary. Like Google.

B

Flex time where you do, whatever you think is.

C

Best for the the further mission.

B

C

Oc, that's kind of how we're trying to structure it, but we do recognize that it's a long learning curve for people to learn how to collaborate. That's a big one right. There learn how to do the advanced.

A

C

Learn how to collaborate with the wikis using free, CAD and open-source software. So that's why we're creating a right? Now we've got our first applicant coming in application. We just posted this a week ago for the osc immersion for for all SC chapters, expa. That means one to two years, two years at 50% time, one year, it's a full time. Engagement but you're gonna be building a whole print cluster, including actually a CNC torch table and a filament making infrastructure with that. So.

A

It's it's a heavy investment of.

C

Your time and effort, but it takes that kind of a time, so we think that a good person in one year- yes, you can definitely learn the ropes to the point that you're running a sustainable business after that. Now, what about all these? Other businesses, like, okay, brick, press or building.

A

Aquaponic greenhouse! Well, yes, absolutely.

C

But but you have to come up with a pretty savvy entrepreneur who can take on a project like that and go through the learning curves. This is very entrepreneurial, high-risk, stuff and typically today's entrepreneurs go go into Silicon Valley and do their exotic projects and a lot of them unfortunately, do not believe that there's abundance to be had for also a lot of the cultural barrier around creating an open business. We see a lot of immunes plenty of entrepreneurs how many of them are doing social, open source, social movement, entrepreneurship, not.

B

C

So that is what's needed. If you, you guys, want to collaborate, if, if say, there's somebody who's actually got some skill and compressed earth block who's a fabricator and would be a good entrepreneur. Bring him on we're. Just saying that we're looking for five.

A

Legged dogs, somebody who is open.

C

Source collaborative maker teacher entrepreneur too.

A

C

A

It's an educational challenge is what it is. It's about, bringing people up to speed on all of those things or have their team's yep to speed yeah. You have a team collaborators for so many focuses on the mark of economic issues. Somebody focuses on production asset.

C

Building on what you just said, so.

B

C

If you you pitch this to the local Chamber of Commerce or business community, to say, okay, let's fund this team of five people are this team of one capable individual get them the training, get them the resources and support, including mentorship and business advice and a facility, but that's the kind of level it would take. So, for example, you're gonna collaborate. The first thing I would ask you: can we give this spot I'm? You know who's.

B

Gonna have the money as a young entrepreneur, doing ethical.

C

Work not a lot of people so find the support structure. For that, let's apply for a grant.

A

Or something or some.

C

And get that funded and make it happen, we can teach to teach people, we would be one of the partners, you need a person in the the actual actual agent, the person, the collaborator. You need, some meant mentorship. You need some funding, so there's.

A

C

Parts to make it happen, but definitely doable like if we couldn't collaborate and think of a some concrete project like the like the brick press. We have that is ready to go into production. It needs somebody to develop a business out of that. So that's an entrepreneur. It's you know it's a runway of a year or two to do that. So.

A

You know, and it's an IDing one, because now you have an eco eco house that can be built from your materials. Oh so yeah that it actually, the production of presses, leads to the production of the bricks or the blocks that leads to the construction of homes and now you're seeding the local economy on multiple levels simultaneously.

A

C

Something like a.

A

Great press, we could just jump on that right now. The question is how many of your? How many designs do you have in in the can that could go to market today.

C

A

B

That by design yes, I mean we've done like 10, it's the same machine. It's the.

C

B

C

That the thing is done, you can take that you can optimize a little bit on a production engineering. You can figure out a little bit more effective ways to do it, including that when you get specific down to it sustainable supply chains like a lot of times. We cannot get the same cylinder every single time, so it made a little harder, but so details like that. But beyond that, that machine is ready and can produce six blocks a minute. It's 5,000 block a day easily.

C

B

C

The industry standard cost, it costs 5,000 materials. The nearest competitor will to get a machine like that. You pay about 52 thousand dollars. Last we checked so it's there. The question is now: okay. Do we have a person and a support for developing that enterprise? So what I would suggest very explicitly is okay, send us a student or two we'll take them through a one year to two year immersion, and in that time we are developing that business and that's what it would take and.

A

I can see microloans funding some of those entrepreneurs and say hey we're going to invest in you, because we're investing in our community, yeah and I actually know people who are doing that kind of microphone work in local communities here, yeah and they're, probably all over the country. So that would be one way that we could seed. This is by saying: okay, let's find a grant, let's find a grant or a loan or somebody who is very serious and can show that they have what it takes to bring. This thing mark yeah.

B

A

And we're we're very willing to support that effort. I.

C

Mean it's very important one to do exactly that, to do the due diligence, I'm.

C

Yeah, that would be an amazing collaboration, so if you guys want to do that, we've got the technology. You've got the training, as in me, directly teaching this person and it's it's it's a it's an interesting thing. After a decade of this work, I mean we have got so much material and you can, if you go through our wiki and just Google, like oh I, see this all I see that is just so much material, including on a CD go home, an aquaponic greenhouse, just amazing.

B

Business opportunities.

C

But it's not easy. I am.

B

Collaborate on it.

C

That'll be an awesome point so.

A

Going back to question right, I, don't think I was clear about so right now the 3d printer could go into production. The press could go into production, Green has to go into production, yes, how many more? How many more machines or devices or or structures do you think, are ready to roll ours as rock.

C

30 days, oh the micro tractor, we did another prototype on that could be a pretty much replicating where we have right now. The power cube, which is the hydraulic power unit. There's a salt mixer the torch table after another iteration, that's like like a three month with a wonderful person. I can I could get get that we've built. So many prototypes of that thing, those are probably the green house, the house, you can say in a CD version, we've done like five or so the prototypes of the micro houses for the the house. You.

A

See here, that's that's! The CD go home I'm living in right now.

C

We have models that are so similar to this and simpler based on not the CB but basically panel eyes and lumber construction, and that's actually that's way easier. If somebody wants to do something like that from from the hardware store materials which is not as sustainable, but it would be a much easier business to do so.

A

Those are about it, the.

B

Five or so another one is a CNC.

C

Circuit mill, which we've done and published in a peer-reviewed journal, it's it works great. The.

B

Laser cutter also actually.

C

Is available for that level of deployment so.

B

There's there's a few like.

C

Six, seven or so things that, right now we go to the product ization station. We have a page on the wiki called stages of product release and we list like very granular, like ten stages down to like full distributive enterprises, where anyone can get training. It's a proven business model, starting from the very first prototype we're at about six is where you have a product: that's ready to be replicated by others, and you can say we're like an eight or ten, which is basically for the 3d printer.

C

It's pretty much at the distributive enterprise level, where we can take somebody and teach them exactly how to do that and make a living on the on that. That's.

A

Truman well, in the time that you've been doing this. Certainly you you've gained some wisdom about this whole process and I was wondering if you could share some parting words of wisdom with us.

C

Parting words of wisdom, I, would say, there's a huge vision, difference between vision and execution. So over the last three or four years it came to the fore. How important the product, ization or the attraction part is because you can do prototypes all all you want and entertain yourself, but as long as there's, it's not easy for others to replicate what you're doing then you're kind of entertaining yourself. So you know like in art like switching to that entrepreneurial.

A

Mindset now I tend.

C

To say that ideas are kind of cheap, because we can all have ideas of all. We can do this. We can do that, but the real difference is the execution part which is OK with the rubber hitting the road. So really thinking about okay. What does it mean for this to benefit many others and then I'll turn it into a point of abundance, so turn that enterprise into something that you actually share it like so so there's the enterprise yeah, it can be successful at the enterprise. Well, Microsoft was very successful.

C

Have they changed the nature of human relationships in some way? Yes, but I mean have they changed the way the economy works? No, let's share and change the way the economy works. That's a the deepest form of sharing is sharing of your actual business model. That means other people can get a livelihood from that, and that is what is going to change the world. In our viewpoint, it's.

A

So exciting and I say that from the bottom of my heart, I think the work you're doing Marcin is revolutionary, transformative and I would liked it's nothing more than to see to see your work be out there in the world. You.

C

Know, thank you. Thank you very much and you know just to wrap up with that. It's like it's up to us. It's like not me yak and have these ideas, but without people like yourself and others actually stepping in and do it I can do my part, but I want this to be available to every single community around the world. So we're bypassing all our problems, and literally it's about actually yeah just ending up with what we're trying to do is actually it's create a funding model for good work.

C

So that means you can create this operation, where your funding you're doing a small bit of production, that's open source, highly efficient and optimized, and then you can work on solving pressing world issues as that which you do for a living. That's our goal help us do that.

A

We will thanks again we'll be posting links to a lot of oh s, si pages on our website and look looking forward to speaking with you more in the future. Thanks again, Thank.

C

You Victor so much. This is great.

A

I'm, stopping the recording, yeah.

C

No, this is this is also meant. You know what like recently, actually I'm getting you're. Actually the first podcast with the intention like right now, we have a specific campaign to get me on as many podcasts talking to other audiences, because a lot of times we've been kind of talking to ourselves a.

B

C

Eat, like all the people that are already followers, so I'm actually doing a dedicated campaign to to do outreach, but you know the cool thing which I think what you're seeing here is. If we get in touch with podcasters and people like yourself, there's a lot of people doing great work already. We just need to connect to and.

A

Let them know that this actually exists and start doing it.

C

A

I said: I spoke with Richard Heinberg at the end of the interview, I did with him and he was committed to doing something to develop practical strategies that any community can do to implement right now to create localization, and you know: cooperative, a cooperative, local, sustainable economy and so and I think that what you're doing is a model. That's a really critical piece of it.

A

Just how to bring these people like you and him, and various others together and getting and getting us all on the same page, because I think we're all on the same page. You know you know anybody who anybody who's. Thinking about these issues, you know so I've also interviewed somebody who recently who's doing alternative currencies and I.

A

Think that that that's a piece that's going to be very important because the you know the monetary system is just makes no sense, and and we we can see that there's gonna be a point where money's going to be scarce, it's already scarce and there you know we should be able to still do exchange with each other yeah. So so I you know, and so luckily, here in Tucson we have somebody who's, an expert on that.

A

If, if that part piece was to be integrated into a model and that's down the road, I would see it the incentive, for that would be if the currency system collapses, which you know, there's no reason to think it won't.

A

Then it'll be incentives to do that, but right now there's plenty of incentives to put in the pieces of you that you've created, because because.

C

There's a lot of people out here.

A

Who are unemployed, underemployed businesses? Closing down you can't? You can't tell me that somebody in Tucson can't make a good living building brick presses or making bricks and selling bricks yeah well,.

C

So how would we move on that? Like? Do you have any specific action points we can take on that I mean what I would explicitly suggest is like yep get somebody we can train for a year or two of tuition.

C

There's materials, a brick press costs, five thousand pounds, five thousand pounds, it's 2,000 pounds and five thousand dollars in materials 4,000 to 5,000, yeah, yeah, so varied will be find a person find some support for them. I mean do you have specific people or organizations in mind that could be the candidates and their supporters. Well,.

A

One of the first thoughts that I have it's my my wife is mover in a shaker. Oh.

C

A

Maria has been an entrepreneur very successfully, does yoga therapy and she developed a school of yoga therapy called functional. You.

C

Functional yoga, what is that punctual.

A

Yoga therapy, it's a type of therapy that looks at structural issues in the body and how they affect your ability to move in the world and corrects and incorrect. huh So right now, she's doing things like postural analyses, cultural assessments online, because she's not meeting face to face with people. So you know there's this one! There's these wonderful apps that allow her to take a photograph of somebody and analyzed stever we're hip heights are off shoulder heights. You've got scoliosis, so you've got any number of things. Oh.

C

A

C

This post honey is there a book on this somewhere well.

A

She's working on a text book she's, been training people for years and they've been pressuring her to generate a text book, but she just hasn't had the time until this pandemic to sit it down and crank it out and now she's well on her way to having a text book, I interviewed her mentor was a guy named Joseph LePage, who developed, integrative yoga therapy, and he is very influential he's out in Brazil, so I could see him being involved in terms of trying to fiddle to commerce.

A

In Brazil we have a friend who lives in a small town called Silver City New Mexico. She is involved in a microloan movement and so they're trying to create micro loans because a lot of businesses in Silver City of shut down during the pandemic. Restaurants and cafes clubs bars what pew there were closed down and so she's looking away to stimulate the local economy and she's she's a person who's worked for. The federal government has a PhD.

A

She has a lot of ideas, so I would probably bring her into a discussion, because if we can develop grants or micro loans for people and like I said, I was I'm hoping to drive some kind of a plan, maybe in conjunction with people like Richard, and take it to my my mayor and say: listen, we can develop a resilience plan to stimulate a number of different local enterprises so that whatever happens, if in a year the Panda Flair's up- and we have another shutdown for two or three months- you have businesses that can run themselves and survive.

A

C

A

You know, but so those are some of the pieces that I can see so the first place I start is I'm going to brainstorm with my. Why, because Maria is, is a you know, really brilliant person in terms of having connections and having ideas about how to to do this. Now that I have a better understanding after immersing myself and some of what you're doing for for a few days, I I think that the next thing would be just try to formulat to formulate some kind of a plan.

A

So I think that we could bring I think we could bring you some students and, and the only way I would invest in those students is if I know that they have a commitment implementing to to learning the skills and actually implementing it and bringing it to market. So so we probably would need to see proposals from people that show that they have a background and passionate and the wherewithal to actually pull it off. Uh-Huh.

B

A

But but I'd like that, I'd like to consider doing that yeah.

C

Another leg going can get yours OSE chapters proposal, which is how we we're doing it right now for the people applying for around the 3d printing, but the 3d printing I mean that's just the first excuse. That's the that's the thing we have right now.

C

It leads to like, for example, in the brick press, there's parts that we 3d print that otherwise you know you'll be paying for so so it's the 3d printer is universally applicable, but take a look at that model for how we're running that, including our application and kind of like the base of the program. They'll, give you more insight.

C

A

Tell me if you have a 3d printer, so your so your business has a 3d printer. What kinds of things easily could you make with a 3d printer that could be sold? You know you in your local community, besides parts for somebody's other machine.

C

Orange plumbing fittings connectors.

A

So like he could do plumbing so you can. You can build things for plumbing in your local community. Absolutely.

C

A huge business ideas like and we haven't done this ISM and and once again it's like yes, you can do it now. That's called a business, so it doesn't mean that you just go out there and Priss press print. Then you have a part. No, you have to work out all the details like exactly how you're stacking them on the platform for most efficient printing. What kind of settings you're doing? Maybe it material composition like everything you need to refine to the point of okay. This is the optimized thing.

C

That's your really good, going from margin optimization because you're competing with like a 20 cent part but I think we can even compete with stuff. Like you know, a dollar for a part or you know fifty cents from the plot. The Menards hardware store that's all doable, but somebody needs to spend the time to refine that and perfect it to make it happen. So, right now we've been selling more 3d printers because that's easy for us right now. We know how to do it. People buy them.

C

Okay, but let's start like, for example, just now, I did a bunch of gear down belts for the plastic shredder, so transmission belts, but each and everything so you think about anything. That's a plastic object, plastic or rubber. Like object.

C

Trillion-Dollar markets, organizing cabinets, a simple fan: that's but then it you add electrical components like an air purifier, a fan, a cordless drill, all products to be developed. None of these exist. So here's the very important part. Zero of this exists in the marketplace.

C

But what do I mean by that? You might have well? What do you mean? There's a whole repositories of millions of designs on Thingiverse? What do you mean? There's no product there? Well, they might not be the best design, they might not be printable, they might be actually not open. The guys actually saying that's: private, commercial, non-commercial.

C

So there's a big difference between something that you see a file and Thingiverse and something that goes through the 40 steps of here's, an enterprise development process, the the part or that's file is just one thing. A business is a completely different thing and that's the part that can be swarmed on and that's why I'm, starting this, the OSE chapters, each chapter will collaborate on or develop another product addition to what I mentioned before the open source everything store by product by production?

C

Yes, but that's a long pathway. It's basically the next Amazon and that's it's just coming and Amazon doesn't know it. They know it a little bit because they do talk about distributed on-demand production in their warehouses. Actually, if you read the Autobiography, the everything's you're, it's not an autobiography it's a book about Amazon.

C

So that's that's the that is the next Industrial Revolution. It takes the leaders to transition from saying oh forget that I'm just gonna go to Bernards and give the part for 50. Cent's people are not interested in these common mundane things. We are extremely interested in it. We call that distributed market substitution, take any common object, a pen start producing pens start producing buttons or whatever. This is a 3d printed wallet right.

C

Oh have my money in.

C

These are my 3d printed headphones. That I can listen to you right now, so the.

A

A

I lost you, though, sorry.

C

That you got me, you got me back yeah.

B

I mean basically printer.

C

Comb, whatever this slide, this LED light put some LEDs.

A

C

All plastic: a lot.

A

Of plaster yeah one one place, I can see an instant applications. There's a guy in town who has the business, call bonnets and stems which they make. You know plumbing parts likes like stems for valves and, oh, they don't make them, they sell them. They're, one of the biggest supply houses in the country and one of his mom's started business, and one of the problems is that it's very hard, hey, hey.

A

It's hard to get stems for old-fashioned plumbing now, because you know if you have like a 50 year, old, mom, faucet or whatever, and the stem goes down it's hard to get the replacement part. So hard is talking about 3d, printing and that's something that where, when you finally do print it, it's got some value because you go buy some of these parts from a supply house or 50 bucks. You know for for a stem. So now you have something that you could manufacture yourself.

A

If you have the specifications and I know that he was talking about getting 3d printing set up there, so that would be. That would be an interesting thing to expand on what he's doing. Oh so yeah, absolutely I, I I'm, going to be part of this discussion. I also wanted to say to you as a psychologist.

A

You the focus on self-determination, theory isn't interesting, but the motivational theories are much much more vast and multi multi-dimensional and so I'd like to throw out some motivational ideas to that could be that's part of the psychological underpinning. Please.

B

A

C

A

C

To learning, in fact like so, if we do this, maybe where you can help us, if we do, the extreme Enterprise event can I get you for 24 hours on one weekend.

A

C

And we'll be absolutely in anyway,.

A

How would you see me being able to contribute well.

C

You said it incentive, structure and motivation is one of the critical elements we need to do design into the extreme Enterprise pathway right now, I'm getting coaching from a pretty good business mentor, a marketing guy he's very good at incent.

C

Right right now, I'm getting coaching from a guy who's, pretty good in Applied Psychology, which is called marketing, but I didn't recognize the the huge importance and how we really need to understand it. So yeah, if you can help us on because part of it is for a very carefully architected event like how do you motivate people to show up and stay there and see the vision?

C

So if we can learn that from you or you can actually help us craft the blueprint for the organizational side, the psychological side of that I mean that is right on. That is the one of the critical pieces of what's gonna make it work is this is not about like designing nuts and bolts. This is about designing human technology. Yeah.

A

Yeah well, there's a movie called Tucker, a man in his dream. A man I think this is called with Jeff Bridges I. Don't you ever seen this movie Coppola produced directed it, but in that movie there's there one of tuck. You know Tucker that the car, the.

C

Time we are I, think I heard of this movie I heard of a Tucker yeah well.

A

So so one of the Tucker's associates when Tucker was about to be closed down by the federal government, because the the big three car companies came down on his ass. Of course, his associate said you know when I was a little boy. My mom used to tell me don't get too close to people because you'll catch their dreams, but I misheard, which he said was germs, but I didn't know the word germs yet, but she said now: I realized that she was right, she's that come too close to you and I've.

A

Had your dreams and I think that one of the things I see from the time you did your your four minute at four per minute. Ted talk I've, never seen a better use of four minutes margin than what you did there, but what what you did was you gave people opportunity to catch your dreams and the the thing that that that is going to make this thing fly is to tap it into something that I've spent thirty years studying, which is inspiration. What inspires people? It's.

B

Not just live action.

A

But it's free and so and so I, that's something I would love to be involved with I.

C

Love it no. This is just it plain, absolutely out of control inspiring. No, that's a very important role that I know my mentor just told me: you need to bring the people along for the journey, because once you're gonna start talking about this extreme enterprise, thing I like it that you didn't get scared about it, because I'm noticing that I get two camps, people that love it or hate it, but it because it really pushes.

A

C

Are you talking? This is like crazy and I've had both responsible. Yes, I do recognize that I need to be able to share that walk people through that dream. Yeah.

B

A

And you have a great tool in that TED talk. I mean I, know that very often you direct people to it and which is very wise of you yeah, because that TED talk, probably just open all kinds of doors in terms of connecting people and I saw another video where you were giving a lecture and the person who introduced. You said that you know he was turned on to you by that.

A

By that tight talk, so I would just you know: I'm I'm gonna help put put that TED talk out to the greatest degree possible in social media, I mean.

B

I think I would I.

A

C

A

C

It who was beyond self-determination theory? What else is out there that you're referring to wait.

A

Well, you see you go to you go to what Maslow did was our hierarchy of needs. Is he took all the motivational theories that didn't existed until that time and you can trade them into one pyramid and at the top of that pyramid he put self-realization but then later on is a self self actualization. But then, after at the end of his life, which is very interesting because it relates to your collaborative literacy idea.

A

He, but he said, wait, there's another thing on top of self-actualization and which is self transcendence that we that we aspire to connect with something bigger than ourselves.

B

A

Yeah- and the thing is that my work now is all about I at my most at my highest place in life, I know that I embody nature that nature, that what what the you know when you talk about natural law or natural principles, but those things that those things abide in me and and I feel that a human aligned as fully as possible with nature that when you do that, you find a path of fulfillment.

A

You find some of the greatest a connection to joy and and and bliss that you can and you connect with other people on a deeper level, and what you're talking about, in my view, is creating a society of natural humans. I've been calling it on some of my past episodes, Homo Naturalis. That is our basic. That is our essence and connecting back to that and I. You know, I hear so many people say I, you know well. The problem is that we're out of balance we're not connected with nature. Well, why?

A

The aren't we connected with nature? How did that happen? And how do we? We need to correct that in a heartbeat, because I don't see any changes being implemented like what you're doing unless people understand, we need to live in our bodies in nature, fully immersed in nature, in our bodies, in our societies, in our homes. Right now- and this shift has to happen now- yeah.

B

A

That's why I'm involved in this at this point in my life, because because I I would love to be on the forefront of pushing that shift into a way of life, that's more in balance of nature. Every day when we throw stuff away into the garbage, it hurts my heart I. You know every day, I get into a car that I have a Prius, but I don't care, it's still guzzling gas, and you know it breaks. My heart I feel like what what a stupid lack of vision.

A

This is, you know it's just a lack of vision that we couldn't design a vehicle. You know that that doesn't destroy the opportunities for future generations.

A

At this point, my life I, don't have kids of my own biologically, but everybody's my child and I care about making sure that there's an earth that you know, Patrick's podcast, is called last born in the wilderness, for a variety of reasons. But one of the things is he's speculating. You know: are we among the last generations that are going to that are going to be able to experience wilderness on this planet? It's like. Let's try to be so and.

C

I liked I would also like to transcend a longer current theme, the homo Naturalis to homo Naturalis, a perdus I've.

A

Heard it say they get to pretty open yeah.

C

A

That right, yeah.

C

I would I said homo homo up artists. That's what I would say.

B

C

A purchase open cinema project out there, but yeah homo curtis or homo whatever, but yeah openness has got to be part natural. It's all the same thing. I would say that openness, transparency, that's you know, that's the natural mall thing, yeah.

A

So absolutely that you know I would say, use me as a resource I. One of the things I learned about this podcast is I, am NOT an unbiased journalist. I am choose people I. Thank you, because I'm very biased and I think that and I want to be talking to the people whose work I admire, who I think are doing the things that made difference and and you're. Definitely one of those people so to have you be one of the people I get to interview very early on in this podcast is is significant for me.

A

C

Because this is only the beginning, as I said in my time.

B

C

Is only the beginning, yeah.

B

C

But, but tell me just just to knock knock out the practical psychology questions, so, okay, so beyond Maslow. What is there so like? Are there beyond self-determined I find self-determination? Theory can most compelling it's like. This is why we do things, but is there like what are what are the other camps out right now? That are you referring to some other specific worker? Well,.

A

You know if you look at all those layers right, it's it's important to know that those layers include. You know basic biological drives again. Those are concern. You know, there's a lot of these things that are universal for all of us, safety, esteem and and what they basically did was they took that they took. You know the ideas, so we need to take it when you take a personality course, which I've taught for many years at the University personality who we are is considered to be a function of what drives us and what motivates us.

A

But the thing about a lot of these models is that if we are all driven by biology or alter than by safety and esteem and accomplishment, then how, where do our personal individual differences lie and a lot of a lot of what?

A

What I focused on and my work is, is where there is some higher calling that each person has and that's very individual and a lot of people, don't even know what that is. You know so whatever you're calling something that moves you like Michael Jordan, there's no question that the moment where the game is on the line.

A

The the line between winning and losing is what he lives for and that competitive edge where what you do matters between you win the game or you lose the game, and there is a person who is more more integrated with what moves him and his I his ideals and what inspires him than most people. That's why one reason I think he was infinitely successful because one he was more driven by that calling, if you will that pie, a purpose that most people are many people don't even know.

A

It is I, heard an interview with him when he was 19 years old and he said yeah and he was still in college, and he said this is what moves me. This is my reason for living and getting out of bed, and so it's not just a bad knowing what mode it it's not just about being motivated, but knowing what motivates you at the highest level? What inspires you and and a lot of people, don't have a clue.

A

You know, I have done, I taught workshops for 20-some years with people and I've had 75 80 year olds. People say to me: I, don't know what I want to be when I grow up I. Don't you think that's a tragic, failing failing of our educational system that somebody can get to be 80 years old and it's never connected with the things that they're that that moved them passionately in this. So.

C

What do you do what's your like? Do you have any tricks up your sleeve regarding how do you make? How can you get people to recognize ya.

A

Well, one of the things I've often done is do value a guided exercise where I asked people to go back to a time in their life when they were completely immersed and lost in the moment when they were completely in it involved in what they were doing or experiencing.

A

They were fully in their joy and and trying to get at what it was about that experience that that made it so for them, and, and sometimes it's about helping them, find a tag, a word or a phrase that describes that what it is about that experience you know, I know that I'm inspired by inspiration. That would be my tagline I know that if you're inspired by it it's gonna inspire me, you know I, that's what I get off on I get off on your energy.

A

So you know if I meet when I meet people who are inspired that inspires me tremendously. I also am I've always been inspired in my connection with nature, I gave this talk. It was a TEDx talk locally and what I basically said in moments of inspiration.

A

We get out of our heads connect with our bodies, and that is something that I can show people how to do and I think it's very, very important, because when you bring people together for something like a weekend and there's a bunch of Talking Heads and there's a lot of blah blah blah people are blending in their heads.

A

It's nice to bring people in to play experiences into sensuous, a connection with things like their food and tastes and smells and all of those things, and then I have developed a very simple technique called repose, which is a receptivity technique. You lie in this position that looks like a starfish with your arms and legs. Extend it and.

B

A

Lie on your back and you do it for seven minutes. My lab did a bunch of research on this and we found that 30 days of people lying in repose for seven minutes three times had some radical effects on all kinds of things: self-esteem, positivity, resilience on.

B

C

On and on what doesn't it do? I.

A

My personal view is that that what what we're all tapping into you have to be receptive, you know you can't you know we're taught to just grind it out to to figure it out to think harder and work harder to solve problems, but but some of the great folks, like you know, innovators, like Einstein Einstein, took power, naps and long walks every single day every single day, and so he understood that that that just being in your head being ruminating over ideas is not where great breakthroughs tend to happen.

A

They often happen to people when they're walking in nature, taking a shower or petting their dog, or something like that. I wrote a book called the way of play. That was all about using immersive repetitive play as a way to empty your thoughts and clear your head. So there's plenty of research that are showing that play is a is a tool for creativity, but they never understood that the play that works best for creativity is non-competitive, not something that that's it's highly demanding of cognitive ability.

A

So you know chess playing may not be an effective form of play when you're involved in the creative pursuit, because your mental effort energy is going into the the nick of your next move or your next set of moves.

C

A

But but dancing or or taking a walk or doing something physical playing with the yoyo for me was my my repetitive kind of play that I would do to clear my head when I was writing. I I've done a lot of my writing projects. I've had a yo-yo and I have paddle board. Where did I call? It is this little board little thing with paddle on a string in a ball and it's it's repetitive kind of activities to clear your hand, yeah. So there's any number there's any number of things that are well researched.

A

That can be done with people to you know interesting.

C

Cuz that once in a while I do some therapeutic chainsawing here, I.

A

Think destructive demolition kind of play I mean for man holy smokes. They have a place. They have places here in Tucson, where you go into the smash room and you break glass. You just put on this full body suit and you just break glass and you pay money for the privilege of doing that. Wow Wow.

C

Which I have to say it.

A

Is very tempting.

C

Interesting: okay, cool um yeah, beautiful, okay, so well.

A

It will be intense, I hope, yeah.

C

So, what's any any notes on schedule or what's our next step or anything like that or play by ear or Mike.

A

I think my next step on my end is some to sit down with Maria and talk about how we can strategize and so I hope to maybe send you an email in the next few days after the fourth and I offer you some thoughts on something that because, as as the work with nature of mind, has taken off so has my interest in implementing some of these things locally. So so, let's figure out something that we can do.

A

I'm, also going to get in touch with this woman named Kate, Bradley I told you about who's involved with microloans and see if she has any thoughts on what we what our next move can be. So at this point, I have to kind of collaborate on my end and and and then get back to you with some ideas. At the very least, we should be able to generate a group of people who would come and train with you. I want to I want to learn how to build a brake press.

A

You know I love dirt, and so any dirt I mean because there's different I know as a chemist that there's different clay composition, different kinds of composition. Well,.

C

You have has to have the right amount of about twenty percent- twenty thirty percent of clay, and then everything else is like sand and aggregate. But you do have to have the right size. I mean we have tons of right. Salt here, I know you're in your area. You have the right soil and.

A

You can't hit two minutes by a lot like you.

C

Can't no, no, no bottom acid, that that doesn't do anything for binding that that weakens the binding. It's the clay, ionic attraction between that clay, molecules and other molecules or you can stabilize it. So it's waterproof yeah but I mean right. Mm-Hmm,.

A

We have this stuff called caliche here, which is this clay soil that turns into basically concrete, and you have to break it. You have to break through it with a breaker bar is the toughest stuff I've ever.

C

Encountered that sounds like that would work great for CB right.

C

C

B

C

Sounds like that would work great for CB right, I. Think.

A

So I mean I think you'd have bricks. That would be harder than than anything if you made it out of that the clay here because of the clay, here's just some. You know a lot of Potter's ceramicists work with the clay coming out of the southern Arizona. It's it's yeah.

C

Yeah yeah interesting, very cool, yes, so, and if you approach any other people like that's, why we're doing a program because I think one year experience for somebody wow that's either like a young student, but I think it could be tractable for some others if they do it as a 50% thing over two years and I think that'll be one year to two years like that, should be good enough for somebody to get get trained so like, for example, yourself. If you, if you do, want to learn it like yeah.

C

If you do it like 50 percent, say you got a I mean you got a life. You've got other things that you.

B

C

If you can't just drop your thing, but for others that's why we're kind of thinking like 50 percent might be tractable for somebody who's kind of like transitioning out of something else and maybe wants to get into this yeah.

B

A

B

A

There's so many possibilities that our concert, so let me let me sit with it and I'll take a few days and I will eat it. Yeah.

C

So glad to me- and yes is awesome, so yeah- it's value, the discussion, glad.

A

To meet you too, and so, and then once I have once I had once we have that podcast online. Of course that's a great reason that should be a great resource for both of us. Yeah two shares absolutely.

C

Now I did record this for my personal ends. Do you mind? Do you mind me publishing this or do you want me to keep this private I.

A

Well, I welcome it. That's fine I I'm, open source myself, so, okay, awesome.

C

Okay, get Victor beautiful. Thank you so much.

A

All right take care Marcin. You know, I love what you're doing, keep it up and I'm cheering you on. Thank.

C

You so much, let's work together. Okay,.

A

Okay, bye, bye, yes, absolutely take care bye.

B