Open Source Ecology Summer X, 21 Sep 2021

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: Day 2 - Aquaponic Greenhouse Workshop - Morning Session

Description

Working doc -

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Ptw7b2QJGsQJpSirNcR4alVRiDhAftdb1BjiQGRHxCU/edit#slide=id.gf0587371fb_2_0

-----------------
What you see here at Open Source Ecology is an ambitious open source project for the common good. Join our development team:

http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/OSE_Developers

We run One Day Extreme Build workshops in many locations. Please put yourself on our map if you'd like us to host a workshop near you:

https://microfactory.opensourceecology.org/request-a-workshop/

Take a minute to subscribe to our email newsletter (updates, workshops, etc): http://bit.ly/1LtcM44

A

Recording okay so day, two of aquaponics greenhouse workshop some review of yesterday. So how did it go yesterday? Comments and feedback?

A

We've got a lot of the structure out of three lumber two by sixes two by eights, we've got the roof sections, so all of the roof sections and all the walls right.

A

Do we leave one without a middle line, yeah for a door.

A

uh Any comments about yesterday about workflow and took us.

B

It was a little more disorganized than I expected.

B

I think I think it ended up working out pretty well, but uh I think that you know people were struggling to figure out what they needed, uh what they needed to do.

B

I think they were building up being people who just did mostly cutting, which I think is good, um but I think there was like uh less of uh organization as to who does what happened.

C

Yeah, I was put on doing more modules, but I basically decided to mark and cut and and count through all of them, because that slot was missing.

C

So we didn't go with the original work teams, but yeah, it's kind of been like this. Every time like we don't, we could spend an extra 10 minutes beforehand like doing all the post-it notes or whatever, uh and I also think it should be better like it makes it a whole lot easier. How.

A

Do we do that? uh Yeah I mean it should be in principle quite easy. Like okay, we post up all the notes. Everyone puts up their name on it. um Could that work or so what what broke down in that process.

D

I think that we can, we can improve it according to the skills for everybody like which everybody has. So. I think one of the like the important issue that got into the this leadership role was to count the cuts, the amount of models.

E

C

D

Pieces that we needed to to finish the project and nobody did it, nobody was there to do it so hamptons, instead of doing modules. I had to get into that role and I think that's part of it. Yeah like I think there was, and.

C

I think all of them were kind of measured or measured like it maybe took one and a half hours or something, and then all the boards were done.

C

What complicates this is that we don't have the firing leading roles, and I don't I don't necessarily want to tell people what to do, but it's needed in some sense. But then, when you have that, how do the rest of the people know what the idea of that plan is and- and the one could have done better- is just like for every board and stack them together, like all the 69s in one spot, and it would be used to count or whatever, but the.

D

Other thing is.

C

D

I think it's important is the quality control.

C

D

Nobody's doing it everybody's doing their own module, but nobody's really checking if the models.

F

D

So I think that's that's another issue that we could.

G

C

D

Think we can work on.

C

It I think that someone everybo something everybody should do like if you're building a module. Oh, this 48 kind of, looks long and then measure those before you screw it in.

D

Yeah for sure, okay, but oh there's, people that are coming for the first time doing like first date yeah. So I think it's still important to kind of uh get them uh allocated correctly.

C

D

It's been our style.

C

To just jump right in yeah all the time you know it's drawbacks, but it's also a little bit of a proof concept, because it's constrained design and whatnot, but.

F

H

I would say you know being my first day yesterday. Admittedly, you know I was dealing with a lot of different things. Just trying to get you know I can get meet people understand, you know how the dynamic is improved and uh I didn't I didn't- have a good understanding of who was doing what necessarily like on the board, just not being able to see it visually.

H

um So I went out there with the attitude of you know. I have a general idea of what needs to be done in terms of what we discussed um and once we were out there. I did expect that you were going to be there with us.

H

However, um in retrospect- and I shared that with the team like, I think it was good that you weren't there, at least for me, because I felt like it gave me an opportunity to really connect with people more um and we really had to rely on each other to you know deal with some of the things that people just talked about and while it wasn't necessarily systemic in terms of quality control and workflow management.

H

Stuff, like that, um you know, different people stepped up at different times to make sure that we were, you know, double checking people's work measuring stuff. You know going back to do something else that needed to be reworked, um and so all things considered for me, you know I I enjoyed yesterday. um You know- and I appreciate you know- everybody's support um just getting enough, um but yeah I can see you know for some people.

H

If they're not you know a goal, getter you know or do or whatever you know you might be on the sidelines waiting for someone to tell you what to do and not get to do anything. You know, but the big thing for me was like I didn't get to cut. I you know I cut chocolate, you know carrying wood or whatever, so I wasn't really stressing you know. I need to learn how to do that. I haven't.

H

I haven't drilled, something and put wood together in a long time, and it felt good to just you know have that experience again so anyway,.

F

A

Other feedback from yesterday.

I

Oh help us uh corrected two of our modules. Thank you.

C

G

Yeah we came in and said they're, not even so you, oh.

D

Yeah yeah screws.

G

Out and put them back in more evenly, I didn't know what I was doing. Oh yeah.

C

Well, you guys were working pretty quick, so I just had to unzip two screws and bend the board a little bit.

C

I think we could it kept a pretty good pace. I think I think consider like to make that better is to be even more uh ingrained with, like you do this, I do that, but we're pretty quick, but I just think that definitely because sometimes when the board is not straight, you need one power to pull it straight by the other power pushes the screw.

G

C

Worked well for me, I had to ask the.

A

All right, that's it cracking down yeah, okay, cool, uh we'll focus more on working and as teams like, for example, right I was taking off the getting the ply the getting the glazing over. So that took me all that time we can. uh We can pretty much carry over the rest of that, let's, let's actually do that together. Maybe um comments on single person stuff, like how do you work?

A

How do you work? Crooked wood still, don't think um depends where you are, but on a simple modulus, I still don't see that two people are needed if it's even bent out of shape like crazy, because what you do is one step at a time, so you can only do two pieces. You can only do one connection at a time if you're a single person, so you do that.

A

So what if it's like crooked, like that, the next corner you get to well you'll connect the two and maybe like, like this, still well, keep doing the third one by the time you get to the fourth one. They have to come together and maybe at that point you might need need a hand, but you can definitely get so even so. That's the last corner wants to be like this.

A

Okay by gravity you force it down. It may still be like this. What do you do then? Well still, you don't need a second person screw in the place where it's actually aligned.

A

Once you have that you have a con, you have another degree of freedom removed and then you can do that and if you can't hold it there, then maybe you need a person, but perhaps you can use a use, a some kind of a clamp or something so my history on this has been most like most of the time here, I'm working alone outside of workshops so and you can also learn like there's, also books on this. How do you do construction by yourself?

A

uh So there you know, there's you just have to review the problem from a different angle and see how you can do it. So that's that's something now. If we have more people yeah, you can definitely get more people. I still think it would be quite interesting to see have a team of one person, two people, three people and four people- do a module and see who who actually.

F

A

Does the best- and I think will actually be surprised as far as um how that works? If we actually, you know we have a contest, it's like yeah yeah, we're like competing, and so you have to think you have to think. Okay, how do I? How do I really do it fast, and that point you start getting creative on how you can do it? So definitely something to think about.

A

um Beyond that pretty cool, I mean I that's good, that the things went up uh at least as far as the frames being screwed together, uh we can put them up and what we want to do is on a pad clear out the area behind the house, and we can start doing that. We've got all the so we have to bring the rest of the glazing over some of it is kind of dirty. So we just washed washed off a bunch of that yesterday.

A

Today we can do a little more of that as far as getting the dirt off just kind of cleaning the panels off a little bit at least spray it with water and get the get any dirt off. It's not! It's not too bad. So with that we can put on the glazing. How do you do that? You don't want to screw the glazing directly in you want to screw through batten strips so actually to wrap up. uh Let's go to like page four like after here.

A

How do you do the glazing so we talked about, we did the struct. You know, we've got the main pieces of the structure. What about so structure count?

A

How about glazing.

A

How do you do it so right now, let's draw one so, let's take, for example, the long one, so we can do a long one and a short one. Well, actually, let's, let's, let's think about how all of them work. So this is say eight that let's call that the eight.

A

Let's call that the six.

J

A

More like the 16 uh 16.

J

A

There's there's provision for apertures at the very top of the 16, so there would be, if you put on the glazing on it, you'll reach only up to here. What we want to do. There is put a support like an edge support, so actually do a piece of two by six or two by four. We have two by fours that are treated.

A

You can put a piece of 2x4 that spans up there, but this is this piece is actually draw draw this more accurately, so you've got the long one here down the middle. Therefore, this that's good for structure so you're supporting both on the very ends when you lay the one end and the other end on the wall. That is good, uh but that means the window. You have to do in two p. The window support you'd have to do that in two pieces.

A

So here's here's one piece that fits in there and another piece that fits in there as well, and then you you can attach the 14 foot glazing to it. That's that's how it would work.

A

I would say.

A

We've got two by fours treated sitting in a pile. We've got a bunch of that. So I would say: do some two by fours? They don't need, don't need much structure there. That's just to support the window. um So two by four lumber treated treated.

C

A

What would go there.

C

Should be 21 and three quarters each piece, I think.

A

21 and three quarters: um so how do you get that you get 48 minus four and a half four point: five.

E

J

Divide by two yeah.

A

Forty two point: five divided by two.

A

So 21 and a quarter do we say.

J

A

D

43 and a half divided by two.

J

A

Okay, so that that's what those are, uh how do you do the glazing? How do you attach it so there's long batten strips let's actually expand this a little bit here.

A

What are these batten strips, they're, one by twos, they're, actually cedar, so also took some of that from the greenhouse. We've got some more in storage, but uh how do they look they're just long strips long thin strips so you want to screw through them as opposed to directly into the glazing, because the glazing might just puncture through and break through it.

A

So it's convenient to do. Do a batten on the end, a one by two so that the force of the screw is distributed. You can do that like every every two feet, or so every yeah, every foot or two feet um like 18 inches or so so you've got these battens.

A

All the way, all the way to them to pinch down the hole. Well here you you're go you're ending up there because you've got the one piece, uh the second piece we can put it in an interim. We can also make that openable so to make it openable. We can rework that a little bit so there's we don't have to do that right. Now, let's get the structure up. Do we need to sew.

D

A big one, or can we just put a small one, no.

A

You can put small ones it's just to hold it, we're not going to have those long ones anyway, like that that long they come only in a certain length, so get a num number of those batten strips they're, yeah they're, probably.

C

More accurate, where are they screwed in to the side of the wall model.

A

No right through the glazing on the edge, so the glazing is four feet so you're just pinching.

C

It down through the glazing, yeah.

A

You distribute the force on that so for accuracy, these things actually yeah. As christian point now, they're they're, shorter they're, a bunch of there may be a few pieces. It doesn't matter how short they are just use use what we've got so you can make that into multiple pieces. However, however, it's convenient and.

C

How fragile is the glazing, because it's probably a good idea to not sink that screen too far? I guess.

A

You're not sinking that screw into the you're distributing that force through the batten. Now, as far as the batten don't go deep into the bat and just end up flush with the surface of the batten, that's all yeah, so you might have a short one here.

A

uh Do a little longer.

J

A

End and then do a separate one for the top piece here so that we can rework. We can make these openable. uh We don't need to do that right now, but we're making a provision to make this openable by battening. This up here in the meantime also you'd have to batten it up across here, because there's nothing really supporting that edge.

A

um There's the back! So what's the detail behind there, the two by four that's behind there. I would put it on edge not on edge but but on a flat side behind this, so you have ample room to screw in um so this one should actually yeah. So that's the two by four laying flat face face on and this one would be like this as well, but I would say, worry about the main bulk of the glazing.

A

If we get the long piece of glazing on and like let's, uh let's actually move on the structure, so we can do the structure and then get right to the pond like if the structure is standing, it's still relatively easy to access everything. So we can finish those details as well, but let's, let's move on in terms of schedule so just to review the schedule. We've got five days. So yesterday the structure we want to get to the ponds and finish them today, so we can actually start filling them.

A

So we actually can inject our fish in there in two days, so biological systems in two days so tomorrow, tomorrow we'd be building all the other ancillary structures like beds, towers everything all the supporting medium for for life, and then we can populate it actually seated with the life on the next day after yeah yeah, we've got all the seeds we mentioned yesterday. We've got those um and then there's automation day.

A

Where we talk about okay, we seated that just by hand get them going, and then we talk about here's, how you automate all the watering and with that we we got a lot of shark bite, fittings and pecs fitting so that you can make quick, connects and and wire that that up actually to the universal controller, the 3d printer. It's it's the universal thing, so we can turn those things on. We basically have one panel with electronics, which is dry and then, behind it or elsewhere, you've got all the hydraulics for simple washer valves.

A

Washer valves are the cheapest way. You could do it. You can also go to go to adafruit industries, they have like dc solenoids, but the cheapest thing you can get for two channels is a is a washer solenoid which costs like six bucks for for two channels, so like three, it cost you three dollars to turn on a water water channel uh automatically. So it's like that's the cheapest. You can do it. It.

K

Doesn't have uh guard circuits with magnetic field collapses, they're, not like normal solenoids, like you just let it right, yeah.

A

When you run that through a solid state relay, which is what we're gonna do that, that issue goes away because that has that protection built in so we're good on that. If we did a transistor by itself, you do have that flyback thing happening from the sound noise is a mechanical thing that it's a mechanical thing that once it snaps back, it causes electricity, a spike in electricity.

A

So you got to protect that and we did that on early cb controllers, where we used transistors to do that and there you had to protect that back back back voltage, but with uh like off-the-shelf solenoids such as whether solid solenoids or well. More like the relays like there's, you can get the dedicated relays like we have on the 3d printer controller.

A

We can use that or you can have these other boards with solid state relays, those those you don't need to do that and it depends uh depends how you wire depends how you're wiring it, but in the system how we're wiring it that that issue does not arise uh for now. So that's that's kind of the plan. The five kingdoms fungus um animalia.

A

That's the fish: is there a kingdom of worms?

A

Insects is that, like still animals, I'm not sure. Well, there's plants microbes what else it might be. What's the fifth one.

A

I said fungi, let's see if we were represented five kin, five kingdoms. What do they say.

I

F

A

Yeah, so oh yeah, so protists and then there's fungi plants, animals, protists and prokaryotes, which are bacteria so tiny little critters. So protists are.

A

Algae slime, molds and malaria well.

F

We've got we're, gonna have algae.

A

Growing in there now the algae that seeds by itself- and that's food like if you have tilapia or these other fish. If they're vegetarian is trout, vegetarian or is trout omnivorous I can do you know: tilapia are omnivorous, they eat plants, they eat other critters, they're, probably yeah, and I'm assuming they'd filter some algae too, but but basically the fish like. If you have fish in there, the pond becomes clear because they eat up filter out the algae and they eat them. So that's their food too, so fungus.

A

We definitely have it intentionally with the fungus towers plants. Yeah, that's the core and animals is the core, which is I mean, I guess vertebrates and invertebrates. So most of it is animals like, I think, that's where the insects, worms, fish and other critters go into, but that's that's that so on the ponds yeah.

A

So we want to get to them, get to the ponds as far as we can, but wrapping up this design here, batten strips, but that's yes, baton strips to just put on the the glazing, the minimum vivo product there is just do the bottom. Just leave the top little two foot piece open. If we want to um oh yeah, look for.

C

Yeah, what's the width of this panel like how far down should this 2x4 be.

A

Two feet: two feet.

F

A

And that's determined once again: that's self-determined by materials constraints, you'll see how far the the glazing reaches, and that will be your marker. That's the safest bet, because you can mis-measure or whatever so do that by the the size of the glazing.

A

um So we can say.

A

Let's put the glazing and blue here so the glazing goes.

A

That's kind of glazing there, I'm not really drawing that.

J

A

Transparent and this one would be blue, so yeah, it's, the glazing is going to determine it for you uh just like, on the other pieces on eight foot pieces, there is a couple of eight foot pieces of glazing. uh Most of it is six, uh so for the six you yeah that's covered completely for the eighth one. You can do either full eight or six and two if it's an opening thing, um but because we, the eight, is the back walls.

A

We should keep that all closed, because we already um we're planning on putting the the opening in the top actually in the top up for airflow um and then there's two pieces, so so that now what do we do for for mounting this on on a platform? Let's do put it directly on it. It's already treated if we bond them together, if the platform's, not particularly even just shim it like make them stand together, so they become stiff and that way it will look kind of like rise and fall as a unit.

A

So wherever it rises or falls just put little shims put spacers underneath there just.

F

To get it even.

A

At the at the bottom yeah on the top, we actually, if you talk about the six foot panels, we've got six feet of waste from each panel. Those little strips is the top plate. Make sure you bond the two panels together then put the next one in the next one. It's going to work still because from each one each panel you've got three cut-offs right from from each six, each six yeah. You got six feet of waste. Let's use that that's a perfect uh use case for doing a top plate out of it right.

C

Yeah so we're not doing a sill plate.

A

No yeah I mean we could, but let's just get the thing up yep. So since we got a a flat pad already, I mean that's it's not that that important. If we were like on plain dirt, it'll be all like uneven. So, but here we already got the concrete. So we can just go right on that um yeah. So that's that's! Basically it. How do you mount the top panel to the?

A

So let's say this is the top panel. How do you mount it on the two walls? So you got one wall here, one wall back there, so this is gonna be a little slanted.

A

Well, you can ride only on top on top of that, but how are you attaching it? There is a question. Well, you have a top plate. We do have six inch screws. We can go straight through so there's if you open up that detail here,.

A

J

A

What's it look like there well.

C

Screw from the bottom yeah.

A

Screw just screw it in from the bottom into the end, so you've got if we zoom that up. So that's the end piece, two by eight of the top: that's the top panel.

J

A

So you got basically.

J

Let's zoom in on that.

A

So you got this, we could align it.

A

Then you've got the the 2x6 panel here.

A

A

The top plate- oh you, actually got another one right, so that's three inches right there, so you can screw a screw from the bottom of that screw is longer than three inches, so it would be. Your screw goes in like this.

A

Use your six inch screws like that. That would be the easiest way to do it from below you've got access here. That's that's a panel. That's got empty inside it's! The glazing is on the front, but this is convenient to do it like this into the the end piece there and what about the back?

A

The back is similar.

A

It's pretty much identical to that.

J

A

We'd also do the screw so now yeah, you got this little tiny gap. The tiny gaps can be like no more than a quarter inch.

A

But you screw that in like that at the back and that's that's solid. You know each screw has quite a bit of force, so uh comment on forces, uh so this greenhouse, so I was dismounting the I was taking four pieces of 14 foot off the old greenhouse.

A

I noticed that on the battens we had so we had three inch deck screws. A lot of them were plain broken right through it's like wow. How do you get that? So what do you think? Let's think about this? What what do you think did that? So these are 300 pound breaking strength. It's at least 300 pounds of sheer force and you've got one by two batons screwing into the panel and, like half of those were broken off like they sheared in half. How.

A

It's not the elements as far as corrosion.

D

And it's not even that you have a greenhouse there.

A

It was the top just holding the just holding the polycarbonate.

D

That's it even having the vertical.

A

Well, it's on the edge it's into the frame of the the two by eight, so it was into the two by eight.

A

That's weird, but that tells me so I would say: that's you've got a four.

C

By six of the screws themselves,.

A

No, I I would say I would say there is a clear culprit and that is you've got a 16x4 surface of polycarbonate. That's a big sail that could probably gather up a lot of forces if you have heavy winds, and so just like flap.

A

That's that's what I think, because it's not like the polycarbonate is just it's actually screwed down. Oh yes, I didn't mention one detail: that's screwed down with uh pole, barn screws down the middle as well, because the middle would otherwise flap. So we're screwing that down a little bit here.

A

So there's a bunch of pull bar and screws. Those are little screws that have a little washer on them so that they they distribute the force. So no batten on there. We just use these screws with washers they're called pole, barn screws so do like every two feet or so no like we actually did more like only like five through the whole thing.

C

A

C

You took from the roof, they already have. Those holes do.

A

They already have those holes, so just use use the pattern that was there already go through the same hole, so you're not puncturing more. We did something like that, but so the ones on these edges were were shorn. I think it's like the whole area. You got heavy winds and the thing just vibrates and that somehow breaks the screws I mean these were screws. Weren't corroded, I mean you'll, see some of them in the actually in the batons, just a bunch of them broken.

A

So that's that was quite interesting, but I guess I have to think about. Like all the forces that that do exist, the wind could definitely explain that. I mean if you get a heavy wind um and the polycarbonate does not break that. Stuff is strong. So um if you.

D

Put the towers on top of it like uh there's more weight, it will break easier right.

A

Well that doesn't affect like that, doesn't put any force on the screw, though the screw is just. You know three inches into the the edge pieces of the the roof roof members. um I don't think the towers. The towers would weigh down the actual truss structure, um but that's engineered that can hold quite a bit. Probably like. I think that's what like is that kind of roof katrina?

A

What is it is like 20 pounds per square foot, I mean 20 pounds per square foot over 16 times four over 64., that's a over a thousand pounds per panel that you can hold that's a lot.

D

A

Yeah, so uh I would do the you you can it's structural, so we can, but first of all we're hanging a strip hanging a two by six off the roof, attaching it to the roof and holding the weight off of that wherever the pond is so it will do like two rows of towers.

B

B

A

No, it's like way over overkill, I would say, um but the point is like whatever schedule we did on that, we should probably like double it like in real life, now that that greenhouse has been up there since for five years.

A

So um I mean that's not a long time, but it just says that yeah we we better do like six inches for the screws on the edges and that's actually the in a lot of places. That's the code thing if you're talking about heavy winds so and we did probably like more like 12 inches or 18 inches in some places as you'll see so yeah just make sure. That's that's like a real data point of okay yeah. You need to keep to those schedules because those forces, even though you think, there's nothing there.

A

They can add up like heavy winds, so just a little structural lesson on if you design, if you build this kind of a greenhouse structure which is like, if you want to build a weight supporting ceiling, I mean this is pretty much. You'll, probably degenerate to something that looks like this.

A

So if you do build this, you have good insight on. You know what works and what doesn't you can build on our experience and go from there so.

A

Any questions regarding glazing.

A

Step one on that: let's go over to the other house, let's pick out, let's get all the the glazing in the back of the pickup and bring it over um so yeah. Next, let's talk about the pond. So what do we do for the simplest pond? That's uh gets us enough enough volume to support a good system um pond first of all palm types. What can you do for a pond?

A

Let's go through a little list.

D

Are we gonna use the wood structures yeah.

A

So you can so one what we're gonna do is frame up wood frame up wood, um how else little tub so like what we did for the first ever aquaponics. We did to go back to the pictures.

A

uh We did tubs for the the raft system on lettuce. um So that's our pond. That's that's the that's! Let's call this so this is your in-ground pond so copy that copy image. So you can have.

A

In ground, what's advantage so, let's, let's we did this so in ground. So what's the advantages and disadvantages of this.

C

More vertical space, but you need to dig yeah.

A

D

It's colder, it's.

A

H

More opportunity for it to collapse the uh pressure from surrounding is it really described.

K

A

It's not done right.

F

K

Is it fair to really describe it as cold or just more like the the temperature is equalized.

A

It is equalized, so you can say it's actually an advantage or disadvantage for tilapia. It's actually disadvantage, but for other fish you'll keep it like around you're going to be getting that 60 from the four feet down uh throughout the year. But of course, if it's too cold in that greenhouse, you know you'll you'll get it.

D

A

In a tropical climate would be great, probably because it'll be that a little warmer there, um but yeah definite heavy work. You're talking about backhaul work. If you're going to do this at any kind of size like we had 3, 000 gallons right there yeah I mean that will be a very long job, trying to dig that by hand so use a backhoe, so equipment equipment needs backhoe, so excavator.

A

What do you say is needed if you were to make.

K

It out of wood, what's the maximum depth of which it's still structurally sound,.

A

I would say any any amount as long as you have that wood and it being attached into the soil like you, can use spikes like we did. You know two foot spikes to attach through, but they would have to be, uh can be metal because metal would degrade over time, so it has to be either galvanized or stainless or they have. They also have uh fiberglass rebars.

A

The rebars are quite convenient for a lot of different purposes: yeah um we use and those rebars they're gonna last, like probably like 10 years in the ground like that. So I think it can go quite deep like yeah and it depends what layers you have underneath. If you have rock the answer is as far as you got rock you don't need any support, so, if you're digging in, if you have uh sand well that you definitely need to support, I mean: there's we're digging there.

A

So there's some layers of sand there that you could see they just kind of collapse too. So you got non-uniform non-uniform. You got some rocks some some sand, some clay areas, and we saw a lot of these strata like in the first. This greenhouse actually saw a lot of that: um okay, so frame up wood.

A

So that's going up. That's easy, easy.

A

But edges tend to blow out.

A

If you go too high, I mean you just got significant force of the water. If it's a round thing, then that's fine. If it's a long square thing in the middle you're, gonna have to support it like. We should probably support this one if we make it like 10 feet so like three feet, three feet tall, just two by twelves, two or three layers of two by twelves, two or three feet is fine.

J

G

Well from the side, it should be a square right if you want best material use.

A

From best material use, you want it to be a square from best space use. You don't want it to be a square because you better get around to it. You got to get into the middle okay, so there's different considerations for how what whatever your criteria is, but in a long greenhouse you want a long pond to use the space the best well.

I

When are two smaller squares.

A

They'll add up on materials: the advantage would be they're independent. So if you kill one, you don't kill the other, hopefully, and no that's a good resiliency.

I

Thing like here, you separate the young fish from the big fish.

A

That's another way to do it and here why why we had to fish forever? There is because, when one I mentioned how the chloramine killed all the fish. Well, we just seeded took like a fish from there and put into the other one before that. Before long, you had a whole population of hundreds in there. So so that's a good good thing for resiliency to have multiple units that are separable.

A

A

Probably yeah I mean that's like easiest way to go and then what's an even easier way to go ken. What did you do in indonesia.

L

Yeah well, the first one was uh okay.

A

So there's ibc totes, that's a good ready! You know: seventy five dollar, you know fifty dollar and up um the 250 gallon containers, uh 50, dollar, knob, great 250, gallons. That's a cheap way to go. I've.

K

Used uh five gallon buckets, they worked out pretty good, but I was doing a little bit of a different hydroponic system.

A

There's five gallon buckets for small systems.

C

Did you have fish? I didn't do fish.

A

Yeah so, but I think if you had.

K

To do one fish, two fish in there, you could just have them swim between it, depending on the size.

C

Yeah aquariums: let's make it fancy.

L

And then the other ones.

A

Tarp bamboo and tarp ken's got the lowest cost option there.

K

So the bamboo was just like a structural enforcement to hold the tarpon in place. Yeah wow, that's badass,.

C

On the inside or outside yeah.

A

I'll paste, a picture, if you can can in there.

M

And uh I mean we've never done this, but but how about? How about a hillbilly pool, uh draw bales and tarp.

A

Straw bells and tarp work too, but the straw balls are going to degrade after a few years.

K

Also great for a giant beer.

A

K

You have like 50 kegs.

A

Yep, multipurpose modularity, straw bells plus tarp and, and I mean look at these straw, bales plus you can google that and actually- and it's a good way to go. Bales are solid, they're high enough straw, bale, oh, you can grow.

I

Mushrooms in them cool.

A

I mean look at that. You sit.

E

And you have you, you want.

A

Your name, you can do that. You can be picking up mushrooms because you seated that with your spores, but that's.

C

Like it's soft and because that's rigid, somehow or well.

A

It's gotten well, that's like framed up afterwards, but here it's I mean the bales just sit on the ground. You just put a tarp over it and that's it.

M

Yeah yeah like if, if you try to slide the paper, if you try to slide the bill on the ground, it won't budge because there's too much attrition, oh.

A

Yeah too much friction, so it it it's. It's a low cost weight.

M

A

Each bell cost you like five bucks or something um I mean that's cheaper than lumber, but.

D

You're limited.

A

D

How do you build it exactly.

A

Just lay the bells, maybe tie a string around them, so they don't. You know even for more reinforcement like tie a rope around the whole thing, just put a tarp right on it. Just make it fit the edges. You don't even have to fold the edges, they pretty much sell fold because it's a little thing. It's only like you know the size of a bale.

A

You could probably do two bales and and like put a spike through them, you know um or do what they do here, but then you're. You know even like one solid piece of wood around.

M

The whole thing.

M

A

Look at these guys for.

M

The yeah look at those guys.

A

Get large bales now they'll cost you a little more, but that's a that's a way to go. I mean they will be great over time, but um that's right.

M

I mean, if they're under the chart, if there's a chart under them, so they're not directly, maybe contact the soil and, if they're, hard pull for them.

A

They'll last a little bit yeah they'll last a few good years: um tarp just wrap them around with tarps. So and like you know, don't get water and um uh that definitely would work. You can definitely wrap the bail all around and then you can put another tarp another polyethylene over the top and that's uh it's.

M

Not I mean advantageous.

M

Right and one advantage it might have as a pawn. That actually is that you get free insulation. I mean the walls. Are the insulation too? Already.

F

A

Yeah and what is that hay bales for a wildlife pond, look at that these guys went pretty larger scale, but anyway, um more more pond types. Tubs tubs are an effective way to go for like if you do rafts so tubs.

A

These are called they're, concrete, mixing tubs they're, you get them like five bucks or ten bucks like these things.

A

And that's that's really good for a raft system and we do these for the perlite starts of the actual plants. So you can get. um I.

M

I post, I posted a link for the tip the wood ones.

A

Into the dock dock.

M

uh In in the chat there, oh and there's also pre-formed pawns I'll post a link for that too, put it in the dock. Oh in the dock. Okay, I don't know, do I have edit, of course, um can you paste the link to the dock.

A

Work doc is there and a chatbot.

M

A

um Preformed ponds and then you get expensive like concrete in ground tile. I mean that that gets.

M

Well, the preformed are like they're, not too expensive if they are um small, if you do, if it's like really small.

A

A very low cost is also pond liner, so like epdm and a hole in the ground that will hold water so pond liner, it could be pond liner plus digging. I mean that's how you do huge ponds like pond pond with pond liner, but pond liner, that's like 50 cents, a square foot. So it's not that cheap.

A

Well, like you know, like they do this kind of stuff.

A

You know with pond liner like these things, but how do you get a such a big big sheet that gets very, very heavy or you have seams in it, which that looks.

J

Like yeah, they got a bunch of seams in that.

A

Thing so that's a possible failure point, but you can go without anything. You can just dig a hole like the pawn we have next to the scene. You go home, fills completely up to the brim after a good rain and stays there for a month or two, so it it doesn't really this year it hasn't dried up, dried up yet so just a hole in clay clay, ground and sandy.

M

Salt, that wouldn't work but.

A

If you've got clay, a lot of places have a lot of clay, hole and clay soil. So that's um we can go. That's that's what we did here so um come on. Let's see what we see for fun.

A

Oh yeah, it's the boat adventure there pond this thing.

A

That's what it looks like after a rain that was right after digging it, and we were actually that water hydrant there was actually connected. We were going to connect a pump in there to have like a backup water, water store, but that's without liner, and it stays there for quite like a few weeks it. You know a few weeks before a couple of weeks, a week after, like two weeks, let's say it starts slowing down.

A

You can dump bentonite clay like bentonite clay. um Have you guys heard about that, so that kind of seals up the pores in the ground, so so how to do ponds with bentonite.

J

A

I mean google, it it's it's. Basically, you dump, I think all you do is like dump a few bags of the bentonite spread it all over and it kind of seals the pores in the ground. They use that for well drilling as well, so bentonite clay plus dig.

G

G

So 50 bucks, then we're done yeah.

A

So you could do that and then, like the above ground, pool that kind of a technique where you have vertical posts and then, like a linear uh rail, that's like like they make above ground pools like above ground pool style. That's a pretty decent way to go, because you can do that, so you got above ground pool style.

A

uh That means you typically have a ring that self that connects onto itself. So it can take a lot of force outwards and it's got vertical pulse to support it. So.

M

If you click, I I put a link on frame that would I put a link on frame that would that shows various options for that style.

A

So I mean that that's aesthetic, quite aesthetic and yeah. You can get your fish in there so but basically.

M

If you keep scrolling down, you're gonna see the ones with posts, the ones with plywood like the old there's, a variety.

A

So this is what we want to learn from, but this oh yeah. This is what we we can do pretty much now you have to like. If ours is going to be long, so you want to probably support the middle, so it doesn't bulk out.

A

So how best to do this? uh Any other palm types that come to mind then there's dams you can damn stuff up like dams are a whole other class for getting water.

K

Let's make a frame: what about like steel, tube welded.

A

Yeah, it's gonna, be that will work. You still need all the space in between right, that's a definite, strong structure. So how do we do it? So how do we optimize for minimal material highest strength? So, let's go to the next page.

H

The cost will go up, but um I'm using uh just you know: basic uh wood framing or or file with some uh yeah.

F

H

Of thin rock or something you know as a layer, you can just put some whatever you want.

A

Yeah, like so yeah like, let's actually durock, is a good thing, because that lasts forever. So I like this kind of material, just uh cement board like we're using for.

A

How the typical price of this kind of a thing? uh How big is this thing? Three by six? Typically, oh, that's half inch, that's really heavy three by six feet. Yeah! That's really solid! That's that's good! That's for like 12 bucks for 18 square feet. It's pretty good!.

A

So, for example, if you so in a strategy like that, you can do this kind of material. Now we do have a bunch of 2 by 12 lumber in the big pile so for speed. I would suggest we just do that. Let's copy this little image into the.

J

In-Ground pond thing.

A

That's a hole in clay, soil.

A

So fr: let's do the framed option. I mean we've got to do something real, quick, that's like you know you can do a couple of few hours. uh Let's just take. Let's do this, since we have the material on hand, um whatever the length is 2 by 12.

J

That's looking from the top.

A

A

I

A

Yeah, of course it's a lot of work, it'll be a lot of lifting, but you, if it's stabilized or if it's not stabilized you, you put the tarp on it. If you want to finish the interior layer, that's stucco! That's a lot more work. There, too, that's kind of getting into the in-ground concrete pool territory where you're going to stucco it, and it's a lot a lot of work, but hey, that's it so there we fixed it. You can put screws through the ends.

A

uh Now what I would do I'm like, if you want to do minimum material for highest strength. If this is a quite long which it is so say, we've got the greenhouse around it.

A

How much walking space do we want? So we basically are determined by here's our our structure of a square structure for the 16 by 16.. So what do we do on the inside for for best use of space plus access to towers? We want to get a growing bed in there. We want to get growing towers, um we could consider a tote ibc tote or two or four or six or eight, because that's how many would fit in the back. If you wanted to do okay, so actually, let's go to the construction set of elements.

A

So now we have to look at when we do the pond. That's a critical space, taking aspect of the greenhouse, so you gotta arrange it in a good way. So, let's look at the construction step elements of what all we want to put into this greenhouse, and then we say: okay, we do the pond based on that.

A

So so these are some elements that we can talk about. What we can definitely do so: okay ponds, growing towers, gutters, say for duckweed rain catchment, biodigester plant beds, warm towers, warm beds, black soldier fly algae tank, growing shelves, mushroom towers, ozonator tanks, sand filter tank, go crazy with macerating toilet in a four by four space.

A

uh If you want to integrate that in controller and watering seeding trays, micro greens, growing fish breeding wall, roof floor modules, worm harvester chicken module. So how does this look like? This? Was a diagram of closed loop, water, macerating toilet again into this closed-loop water stuff?

A

But that's what a system would look like if you wanted to do a closed-loop nutrient cycle, mastering toilet warm towers or duckweed gutters. If it's a separating toilet, which goes where you figure that out duckweed gutters growing towers, warm towers can go into the biodigester from biodigester, you probably go back into towers or ponds, because that's so you can go.

A

Probably go from biodigester back to growing towers because that's nutrient and to ponds from pond quality water, yeah, growing towers, growing beds to ponds they all everything drains into ponds. So ponds are relatively clean. They support fish, so they got to be clean enough for that. Then you purify that with uh ozonators and filters I mean there would have to be some filters there, but you can actually reuse that water uh definitely for your toilets and and if you put have enough ozonation yeah, probably too potable so filters, you have to add some filters.

A

So that's just some close-up nutrient cycle concepts. You can play with that and see like what would fit.

A

I mean we could do this kind of stuff and you know all the elements we kind of we have and we'll we'll build a few of those. So here's uh so here's a basic design of uh what we would have. uh So you got wall, roof door modules.

A

Now we definitely want to have the ponds, so this is just a diagram of the possible elements we could put in growing towers. Definitely that's like the core of the food growing. What else do we have? We want to put in a plant bed yeah? It would be nice worm, towers, possibly growing shelves.

A

We got some that are partially prepared, uh so we could do root crops like carrots and beets, mushroom towers yeah. We stack buckets one on top of another.

D

A

Mushroom towers, no they'll be five gallon buckets five of them stacked on top of one another ozonator tank, duckweed, azola gutter, so gutters. If you want to put gutters on the on the wall, worm beds like if you want to treat all your compost in there bio digester, mastering toilet rain catchment algae tank sand, filter tank okay. So what do we do? uh That's some of the options we definitely in this design here we definitely want to have well, let's pick off some of those elements that we definitely want.

A

Well, we definitely want these two.

A

uh So the growing towers are going to be over the a row of like probably two rows of these. How much space do we need to get around this thing? I mean we need to walk around it. We got to save save a little bit of space, so I would say we optimize for the largest pond, because then you can have the most resilient system.

A

It's the least susceptible like the less water you have. The more things can go wrong, so the more you have it stabilizes and got more thermal mass, so it gets colder or hotter slower things like that. Can.

H

Normal you know evaporation. um How long would it take? You know for your pond so to speak, um to meet you know more water, filling and stuff like that.

J

A

What's the water loss per day here, plants transpire depends, depends how much how much you you're opening up the windows, but you do want to open that up and it's like 100 humidity in there, so, I would say, probably lose like five gallons a day or so just by transpiration. If you have a thousand plants, how much does a lettuce plant transpire per day I mean? Can we find that? How much does one lettuce say? You got a thousand lettuces in there. This is an experiment plant transpire.

A

That's it emits water um for for cooling. Why do why do plants emit water? They do. I think what they.

C

Need for photosynthesis or something that's just carbon dioxide, gas.

A

They take carbon dioxide and water and they make carbohydrates, accumulate water use. Plant transpiration, so you've got milliliters per dry. Mass okay dry mass is complicated because then you get probably like five. Ninety five percent is not dry mass.

A

Lettuce is like mostly water, uh but if you're even just harvesting it just by the weight of it say you got a pound per month.

A

That's like a thousand pounds of water, which is like a hundred gallons so right. There you've got three gallons per day, just in a mass that you're absorbing into those plants. So that would be one figure. Maybe that's what trans transpiration might be close to um do. Plants give off water.

A

Typical plant absorbs water from the soil. The water eventually is released to the atmosphere as vapor via the plant's stomata. That's see, that's the thing. If a plant is turgid, if it's not wilted, that means it's constantly transpiring water. That's what provides that pressure. So how much does a plant drink a day?

A

um What are those figures? I'm not sure exactly, but you'll see that you'll need a refilling of this. So you can't just like leave this in the desert without a backup water source, you have to have water catchment or a water source for this, because yeah you'll see this go down, like I don't know: 5 10, 15 gallons a day.

A

Something like that. uh So you want this tank to be much much more than that, like 100x, so you so like say you lose one percent a day. You could still keep it alive for 100 days without having to refill it. Something like that.

A

Don't know the exact figures, but that would be in a data collection of all this, this thing, um so how much space do we leave around to so, let's, let's determine how do we design the pond size? Because you want to be the biggest you can, because you can have the most fish and most resilience and most water storage and thermal stability just go up.

A

J

A

Could do you could do that? So, let's talk about both how how far are we gonna? What's the optimal to take it up and what's the optimal, to leave it in terms of size? Given that you want to do other things in this greenhouse too, so I want to have a grow bed. I'd like to have a grow bed in there, so we can do so grow bed, or maybe we say no. We do like shelves like three sets of shelves or two sets of shelves that are deep.

A

We actually have those are actually pre-built in our wood, pile which we could use so a grow bed would be like four by eight for significant size uh to get a lot of stuff on there grow bed like four by eight, is a convenient size. That's what lumber comes in uh or shootings.

M

One possible idea would to uh if you want to have grow beds and you'd want to take space inside the greenhouse uh victorian greenhouses. They would have cold frames outside. So basically, you put your grow bed outside and put a cold frame roof on it, and it still shares in a little bit of the heat from the greenhouse.

A

Or you can do this I'll straddle the grow bed across the pond, because the fish don't mind but you're reducing space of the towers.

A

Do we want two side access, so you can block this off.

A

For convenience, I would probably.

I

How many people.

A

I

At the same time, 50.

A

No, I mean, if you so say, say, do a functional system like that designed for a person or two being in it, but you got to be comfortable taking trays of stuff like if you're harvesting, you can't be like all hitting everything when you you gotta, have comfortable walking space access like if you're you know, planting a load of stuff enough for a cart like a maybe like a dolly like a whatever, because uh if you're, harvesting and you're harvesting quite a bit, you're gonna have like big tubs or heavy weight in there.

A

That's okay! So that's a cool thing! You can do that in front of the greenhouse too they'll be kind of getting outside the greenhouse there. uh That.

J

K

Work? What if you allow the vertical elements to move like with the pipes on a track, so they can.

A

We moved around, you can do that. That's yeah, that's more mechanics! So it's more fun, but so.

K

They have these and they're heavy yeah.

A

K

Moisture capture systems they do in the desert, where it does like uh to reclaim our water that's evaporating out. They.

A

Have that's, uh you can put a dehumidifier that that that drains back into the pond or you can do atmospheric water generators, those are a little expensive but yeah they're good for potable water. um What's an atmospheric uh rugged right now! Oh these things! This is uh these things exist and they're almost affordable, well, go to smile.amazon.com and support opensourceecology.org.

A

J

C

A

If you've got plenty of solar, atmospheric water generation is a non-issue anywhere even in the desert. So, okay, this is not kind of so atmosphere. So, in other words like we got, we just got 50 kilowatts of power, pv no water issues, so you can do the off-grid cd go home, slash greenhouse you're, producing your water. I mean okay, let's look! This is really cool. Look at this.

A

C

Up this I mean all this.

A

Stuff, it's like you can buy one. That's.

A

I mean you can get this on amazon, but this kind of a thing which is just a device. It's like, okay, let's, let's find one on um it's a dehumidifier that that keeps the water clean. I mean okay, this is uh where uh say: amazon.

A

I mean these things. They.

H

These are the units that, when they call them, let's put the hydrogen no.

F

A

That's not doing that. It's! uh No! That's! Not water!.

J

H

This is different. Is that because I've heard like a hydrolysis and like water, but.

E

Wait if the humidity is not a hundred percent, does it mean.

G

A

It's less efficient.

E

Imagine you lower the humidity what what changes in the plants do they transpire faster because now.

A

No, they just pretty much keep going. They just keep going. Okay,.

A

What is this thing, but uh you can get one of them for like a well. The wiki is where you want to go. Let's look at that. I've looked at this a bit.

A

um 30 liters per day, 1 750.

A

7 gallons a day.

A

It's pretty good, it's it's, it works. All you need, is electricity and not too much even it's. uh 450 watts.

D

250 watts per yeah.

A

So it would be 350 watt hours per liter produced.

A

You know, that's significant, but it's not prohibitive if you've got ample energy, it's like solar energy. So when we do, we have cheap solar panels at 33 cents per watt.

C

So if you have.

A

C

Eight hours of sun, you can have eight meters a day, yeah.

A

Or, depending on, if you got good humidity, if you've got if you're in the desert and it's 20 humidity, it might take you, you might get five times less or something like that, but 350 watts. That's one solar panel that costs today, 120 dollars at sunlight.com and last for 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, they're guaranteed for 20 years and they live for like 40 or 50..

A

I mean this is. This is all real. This is like you can totally have an autonomous kind of a housing aquaponics system. That's why this is quite. It is quite exciting.

A

uh Autonomous housing is quite real and um we'll see how far we can push that how how fast um and then you talk about water splitting and then you get hydrogen. That's that's energy resource, so your house could be producing your house. Is your now your gas station, like we have sorry, we have uh fossil fuel gas stations, the community gas station based on pv. That's a realistic thing.

A

uh You do like a like. A one acre parcel in a city you get like. I was, was going through. The numbers get like 300 worth of hydrogen per day: that's that's a viable business 300 bucks times 300 times, 30 days like per month, like 10 000 revenue from a hydrogen filling station. If that tech is open source, that's realistic, off solar, it's not talking about fossil energy, like typically happens for brown hydrogen, which is dirty hydrogen, which is just made from fossil fuels. This is like solar yeah. This is.

F

A

Hydrogen right now, how open source is it yeah, there's no good open source electrolyzer that I know of there's a bunch of crappy ones you can get but like a really high performance, one that doesn't exist. So that's great work for open sourcing because that's like decentralizing a trillion dollar industry which is fossil fuels.

A

So that's all good, all possible. A bunch of possibilities.

K

Tractor that runs on hydrogen yeah.

A

But not yet not this year, we don't have it yet. It keeps coming back yeah, that's probably one or two years out, but yeah.

A

Of course, uh that's what rockets use rockets use hydrogen to go to space.

A

Yeah, it's very energy dense if you compress it or liquefy it yep.

E

um Some houses have gardening rooms, yeah.

I

So you can like do the transportation of the little plants to the farm. Do you see this as being a workplace or just like a girl place.

A

Work as in you hang.

I

I

A

Have to do it somewhere so yeah, you probably.

F

L

To have like a prep.

A

Table yeah I'd: do it um did it in there like a prep table yeah like you, want like a water, faucet yeah things like that yeah.

E

You do want something like that.

A

Yeah I mean prep table, but I mean we're not gonna. Do that right now, we'll just do it outside. We don't have enough space in there um back to these dimensions here. um What do we want to do.

A

I would say, like I don't know three feet around that, so we got space to walk around it.

A

The limit would be four feet for, like complete company, like I think three feet is probably good. You can easily get around that. It's a doorway doorway.

A

It gets it's kind of tight, it's like going through a doorway, but if we save that space to be three feet.

A

So what do we got? We got 10 foot 10 foot pond because we got 16 feet total and it's really like nine feet, because we got the walls which are five and a half inches. So no actually we we've got full sixteen, so 10 foot.

A

So this comes out to be a 10 foot pond so 10 foot by hou by how much um we want if it's a grow bed, if it's four feet.

J

A

Want, like I mean you'd, really want three feet to walk around it for comfort, so I mean we can decide to make it like packed, unusable or like super comfortable. It's like choices are ours for what we want to do, um so you can really pack it and it's kind of hard to move around in there or you can do it more comfortably.

A

But let's see what we have in each case.

H

On that notebook, what was your rule of thumb for the space between the uh the.

A

So plant with so how big does a nice plant get it's like this? So about that much I mean what is that like 12 inches, or what do we do in our greenhouse?

A

We have 20 towers over 30 feet, so yeah, it's, I guess, 18 inches 20 towers over 30 feet, um but that distance like three is comfortable walking. But if that is four against the wall, then you got seven feet right there and the front you want. What do you want in the front? Probably, let's just say, nominally three and a front.

A

So what do we end up with three plus three plus four.

A

Ten, so we got six foot max for the at this point. We've got six feet for the the pond, which is that that's actually perfect. That's what the pond and the city go home. One is it's. I think it's six feet is that six feet katarina there.

M

Yes, it's six feet.

A

Yeah, so six feet would be that's a pretty nice size and then who can calculate the volume of that if we go three feet up, let's do like three feet. Maybe two or three feet, probably like two or three uh two by twelves. Just do that.

A

If, okay, so here's what I would do, I would do two by twelve. I would put a single two by four behind it: two strong back it like do this, so three of them are held together.

A

That's a two by four and then on the ground. It's gonna bust out at the bottom. So what we wanna do is put a board on a bottom and screw it with concrete anchors into the ground. So the bottom doesn't pop out. There's a lot the most forces at the bottom. It's going to want to pop out so.

A

For that design, you'd want to do a board, maybe like an eight footer, screw down concrete anchors or concrete nails. So it's just there. It can be put pushed out by all the force of the water at three feet. High and three feet is that's very manageable, like we could. If we did this kind of system, we could probably go higher.

A

uh If we have the bottom stabilized all that force yeah, we could catch it and then um what I would do also is uh put a cross tie on top, so do a little uh either a metal wire or a piece of rebar just across the top. So this doesn't bulge out at the top.

A

If you want this to to last like forever and and be structurally sound, just the rebar, and then you have to put like a an ending to the rebar, where you can screw the rebar like a put an angle on a rebar, something like that and then just screw it in something like that or just a rope like like a hook like an eye hook and metal rope.

A

Something like that.

D

The wood and then pass it over.

A

Well, so if we have this reinforcement there, we've got three inches of drill through and this board here. That's just sitting on the ground on the bottom.

A

That'll be like the easiest thing to get framed up. That takes advantage of the concrete floor that we have, because we have something solid to put the bottom boards into.

A

um So 10 by 6 is what kind of what we're ending up with. um Then we have enough room to walk around. What do we do in the front we can do?

A

We should do a bunch of gutters so like gutters for duckweed or zola, we got we got live duckweed coming in like today.

A

um You can do that and then you run the water through that into the pot back into the pond as a layer of nutrient absorption. So, for example, if you've got like 10 10 gutters every like six inches, eight inches, that's a doable thing that gets you a lot of growing area for a plant like duckweed.

A

You can go through things like duckweed calculations. Let's see, we've got some duckweed calculations. How much duckweed is required to process urine of one person.

A

That would be a duckweed calculation if you integrate this as a closed-loop water system,.

A

A

Duckweed is why duckweed and zola they grow really fast. Their numbers are like pretty crazy. They do first of all they're fish food. So so, if you're, if you send, you have a little hole that goes back into the tank, you're feeding your fish and you're purifying your your waste. If you want to do that.

A

Growth rate of duckweed per square meter, five grams dry weight per day.

D

A

It's a lot ah there's more info um when you, when you were growing a fish that you tried, feeding duckweed back into the fish. I never got the gutters going, but when the duckweed was put in there yeah it got all eaten up because we we plant, we seeded some duckweed in there too.

A

It just gets eaten up by the fish if it's directly in the tank it'll just disappear, so you got to keep it elsewhere.

K

I had, I would do it with tilapia. I took the duck weed and made.

A

So, for example,.

A

If you've got two like you know, I was just looking at some numbers here. So if you got two people that weigh 300 pounds, fish mass is 300 pounds in your tanks, assuming they produce similar amounts of protein or nitrogen. We would need eight square meters of azola to handle the nitrogen loading.

A

So how much do you get out of a wall of 16 footers they're like 5 inch channels times 16 feet? You get like a meter, let's see well, I actually did already existing greenhouse.

A

Has 20 square meters? That's for the 800 square, foot greenhouse! So three of these, so one third has about seven square meters, so the size we have right now has enough area. If you I forget how I was doing it, I think I was doing it all around like if you just have vertical gutters um and we need eight square meters. So if you put vertical gutters in the current greenhouse that we're building all around, you would have just about enough to handle nitrogen loading of two people.

A

So you got your separating toilet and you actually can use zola duckweed to purify all your all your urine waste if and turn it into fish food. If that is going back into the ponds, so you're closing that material cycle there that's pretty cool um and you got to figure that out to make sure like we haven't self-feeding so that out of the bottom trough, you would uh leak out some of that duckweed, but not all of it. So it'd be like a flow-through system.

A

You might have to figure out how fast I gotta pump a water pump so that the azola duck we just maybe like you know five percent of it or ten percent leaves per day. So you got you got those troughs constantly filled. So there's some fine tuning there. That's that's the kind of r d that needs to happen and okay, here's a system that we work out and then you can reliably do it.

A

According to certain parameters like flow rates, and things like that, so it'll be interesting to to get out of this kind of a system.

A

um We could try some some gutters. We have some, um but first thing is yeah, so the pond, let's do like six by ten yeah. That makes sense how many gallons do you have in there? So um let's say we do so. What you do is go online volume, calculator and you say for your cube or this rectangle length is 10 feet.

A

Then six by three calculate that 180 cubic feet.

A

Two gallons, how many gallons we got 1346 gallons, that's the equivalent of five ibc totes, that's pretty good! So if we do that, we got plenty of water there. That would be a nice system, for you can handle quite a bit of fish. How many fish per gallon like um how many to how many trout per gallon of culture.

A

So we can do trout. We can go to there's a trout stocking place an hour away per gallon.

K

Wait we're doing trouting system. Oh high quality, no more tilapia, the.

C

Survive in the winter.

A

Yeah, it wouldn't die in the winter. If you don't don't heat it.

K

Can we do a lazy river trout situation.

A

And let's go swim to trout.

C

This is a farming place, 40 minutes away. We could probably, if you could bring it out.

A

There yeah rule one one: six inch fish for every hundred gallons of water; okay, so that's pond culture rule two one inch of fish per ten gallons of water ponds. That's ponds! That's not a per gallon of aquaponics.

A

That's that's lower stocking density, not as an intense system.

A

In a small size tank, we recommend stocking the tank with one inch of fish every one gallon of water, but it doesn't say how much when they're adult that's just stocking density. The next question is.

A

I think I heard like pound per gallon or something that's like low intensity.

A

uh Fish tank stocking density, one pound of fish per five, seven; okay; no, it's actually.

A

Stocking density, one pound of fish for five to seven gallons of tank water.

A

Well, if that's the case.

A

um That's that's like general, okay. So that's one source that says that if it's that much.

A

Let's say it's one pound for for five you've got a thousand, so you could do up to like 200 pounds up to about 200 pounds of fish in that system.

A

Yeah, it's quite a bit.

A

It's a lot in that small area and.

K

So that's that's how to come on. I would say.

A

Well, you can be constantly harvesting that if you have different cycles, but I mean for one fish to grow, it's, however much it takes to to get to full size which is like for tilapia. It's like a year or something or maybe half a year to a year. How long does trout take to to harvest.

A

About nine months, pan sized ones take 12 to 13 months, huh that's pretty good! So a year, so every year, you're getting 200 kilos 200 pounds from that this one system from this small system. Now, if you go, you can go. You know you can start maxing this out do taller, but then you're reducing your tight. Your your volume of towers that you can handle because the towers would here conveniently be located above so you're dripping right into the the pond. That's why you put the growing towers in there.

A

A

You can do duckweed calculations here.

J

A

So this one says we're gonna get um like 200 pounds per year. If we're just operating this man, that's like half a pound per day. That's like how much protein does a person need per day.

A

So fish shield, trout, yield.

K

A

So, according to this estimate here now, that's you can do stocking density at different amounts like because the growth rate depends on how much you're going to purify the water and how much you're going to aerate it get get oxygen in there. So you can hyper oxygenate and that's intensive culture. That's that's systems where you, you got to make sure that your pumps are running hard all the time and your fish would die without a lot of excessive air injection. So but let's take a look at that intent with intensive fish. Culture means.

A

So when I see that 100 pounds or 200 pounds, I'm thinking a couple of those little air pumps like we, we have another greenhouse, but if you want to go nuts at it and have a high like super high productivity, you really have to pay attention and I think the industry that what they do is actually do pure oxygen, not just air but oxygen, because you need to do that um artificial in artificial tanks and very high densities.

A

So yeah I mean super high density, so they got to keep the like. Have a lot of energy put into uh that's kind of hard to read, um but what is that?

A

What is stocking density of intensive fish culture now? Would we want to get into that? That means like any power outages. You have to do more oversight like it every day you have to monitor, probably have automated monitoring to look at your oxygen levels, because you're really pushing the limit of that, because you're pushing the limit of how much you're feeding them, because they'll just eat if they have enough oxygen and and temperature and food they'll just keep eating.

A

So it's a mixture of how much your ox, how much I guess, probably how much you're feeding, because the oxygen that you can only max it out so much before the water doesn't really take any more oxygen.

A

So you'd control the feeding rate, but you have to be on top of that exactly because, if you over feed it it's now, you start getting toxic and your whole culture dies because it's so intensive. But what are what?

A

What is possible.

A

Intensive fish culture stocking rate.

A

The minimum recommended stacking density for common carplays is 80 fish per meter, cubed intensive.

A

Maximum 150 kilos per meter cubed, that's for that even say for beginners.

A

Now intensive cage culture that would be the maximum oxygenation level, so cage culture is where you have that exchange like all the water's exchanged, because they're just in cages in a much larger pond. So you can like really pack it in there.

A

But here already they're saying for when we look up intensive they're, already saying 150 kilograms per meter cubed we got five meters, cubed and and your the water that flows.

K

Through your system up, there is about how long uh we get forward uh we're taking otherwise.

A

Well, you got pumps at like five gallons per minute, each so like 10 gallons per minute- and it's say it was 3, 000 gallons in there. So that's 300 minutes.

A

So that's five hour exchange time, but that's just running through the tower. So that's not getting all the nutrients out. We that was without like any of the grow beds like yeah. When we had the nuts in there we would have another pump, and that was just ebb and flow, but you can say, like exchange a few times per day.

A

That's not intensive! That's that's! Not! But here I mean look at these numbers already: 1 300 pounds per meter, cubed stocking density.

A

We got five 1500 pounds per year in intensive culture. I mean this stuff is just insanely nuts productive. It's just a matter of how much energy you're putting into the management of it. But this is once again a case where, like for post scarcity yeah, you can get amazing productivity rates, um but at that point it becomes a job. It's a management. You've got to be very much on top of it, but that kind of so let's put a note on that.

A

That's a good! This is good good, good module to study, here's your 16 by 16. uh and we're saying max yield 1500 pounds per year in intensive culture. I mean it's insane, so that means every square inch of that has to be growing with plants. The plants have to be healthy, like all of that, so that's like that's! Where you get to. We don't even have the basic the the low and you know the very basic 200 pounds which is already huge.

A

We don't even have that as far as here's a commercial system that could do that like a robust resilient system. So first get to that. Then you can talk about okay now, let's start optimizing and also start optimizing with ways that aren't just 100 mechanical, just pumps and and feeders. It's that's also biological. You know, like start optimizing for the other elements, so maybe you find that you might have like a like in the summer.

A

You might have a bunch of towers like a whole field of towers outside or something like that, because there's so much nutrients because you're feeding the fish so much and getting them enough oxygen to live on.

A

So but that's I mean that, as I'm saying, those numbers are are pretty real um when we harvested we did like it was like about 120 pounds we harvested from the one pond that was alive, and that was like really not caring, not giving any management to this like not even hardly feeding them, they're just get getting whatever.

A

Sometimes no, we would give him some fish food, but a lot of it would be um stuff that falls in there like algae growth and worms that were in the towers and stuff like that or like the bugs that drown in there and stuff like that. So but yeah, that's uh it's pretty interesting, so yeah. So if we build this little three foot pond, that's what we're designing for the basic the basic figure up there um yeah!

A

So let's build up build that and build that thing so.

H

Let's, let's get out there, two questions.

H

Yeah another uh consideration for different application: um yeah.

B

H

Gonna have uh any kind of water filtration. I guess like well.

A

That's the towers, no, it's like just the towers and embeds, so we have to make sure that whatever we put in, there is actually filtering the water. So if we put like 20 towers in there, that's enough for that.

H

A

Guess I'm thinking.

H

Like, uh for instance, like you said, the seaweed, the you know, fish pool a lot of stuff got caught up in there, so one way of dealing with that was just used. Wider yeah.

F

H

F

H

Yeah um is there any advantage for ever using uh an actual? You know filtration system between the pond and the um the towers and the grow beds, and things like that, because I guess I'm thinking that you know if you ever wanted to play around with you know different kind of fish or plants kelp. Anything like you know that may have different nutrient requirements or something that you don't necessarily want enough.

A

Yeah yeah, I mean sure it depends what you want to do. If you have some something like, for example, if you're in in hydroponics, you definitely want filters, I mean say, you're doing foliar spraying. Okay, so say you want to do foliar feeding in this greenhouse. You absolutely have to have a filter in front of that, because misting goes to very small nozzles, so it just depends what you're doing what exactly you're doing in there.

A

So, but if you our goal, is we've got all these nutrients. We want zero labor yeah, so we just feed it all to the plants and they handle it. The plants and worms handle it and minimal minimal stuff, like the filters you're gonna have to maintain.

H

Understood yeah.

A

H

And then, lastly, for um you know heating the uh the water, if you did do an in-ground pond yeah, um how realistic um is it to like tap geothermal? You know heat underneath the.

A

It's very realistic: you have to have the tubing to very underground and a heat pump to to extract that heat, but that's that's doable uh and those heat pumps. We haven't done uh like ground source heat pumps. What we do do is like in this house is the air source heat pump? That's a heat pump. We have in the house which cools and eats so um if you want to do in-ground, that's that's like that's excavation and a lot of pipes in the ground, but that's a very effective system.

A

That is a very good system because you got that 60 degrees year round, which you extract with your heat pump and you get a good like a three times or so uh amplification of the amount of energy you put into how much heat you get out if you're using electricity so yeah, it's not like a resistive heater like on a stove top where you get one to one like the amount of heat is what's in the electricity that, with the heat pumps, you're, multiplying a factor of three or so for the amount of heat that you get yeah.

L

J

A

Look at that bamboo and tarps.

A

L

The setup is completely.

L

The setup is complete: all we need to do is get the fish put the fish in the system, the waste water from the fish and purify it, and then we pump it back to the fish tank from the sun.

A

Yeah I mean these totes totes are a good way to go for the tanks too. I mean 250 gallons, uh you have some plumbing there.

J

A

Very nice, okay, so next.

J

A

Maybe we have a team divvy up to glazing on the panels. We gotta clean off the glazing and attach it with the battens. That's one job and behind the house. Existing house clean off that area 16 by 16 just start mounting them, or we can just go nuts right now and start mounting the six foot ones. You can put them right on there. You can put them in place so.

L

Could you see.

C

Sorry, but do we need to square the foundation.

K

Yeah not really now.

A

You have two edges, you can start right away and then my theory on that is, if we don't they're still movable yeah.

L

A

Put them up and move them to a square yeah, because you'll have two. You already have two straight edges, so then you need to figure out where the corner ends up. It has to end up. If it's a straight line, it has to end up at the right place since we're using uh four they're, still movable they're light enough that we can still like bump them around, and just do that you can square it. I mean.

I

But it's not roll and then.

C

I

A

To one end, yeah.

D

Just kick it with a hammer, just a.

A

D

And then you can.

A

Do a string yeah to keep it straight, but you'll see it visually. I mean four of them is this is a much smaller structure, so it'll be easy to just kind of like bump back and forth yeah, because I mean you'll be determined. Okay, these corners have to end up at a point: they'll be determined, so you all you need to do is straighten out the wall.

A

If you need to so yeah uh but yeah, we could I mean the six foot modules, an eight foot I mean, since all of them are getting attached to the six foot.

A

Well, the six foot are very easy to reach when installed, so maybe do one team starting to clean off the site and install it, install them and another team we can have at the same time. There's glazing that's available that we can be attaching that so another team can do that and a third team grab the remaining panels from the site.

A

Or maybe do that right after lunch, because I think yeah, let's put a bunch of them up, already get a feeling of some accomplishment. Then we can get into um do this pawn thing. That's that's! Basically, picking a bunch of the two by twelves from the back storage cut those to ten and six and there we go. uh We can do just exactly ten and six. We don't have to worry about like six minus three inches. That's, I think, that's okay there.

A

uh So we have a solid wall and that's that should be good. There's that two by four that just bonds them together or two by six or two by four there's one on the bottom. That's anchored in so we're going to drill through drill, with a drill and put in like a couple of anchors. The simpsons strong tie, uh concrete anchors like put in a couple two or three.

A

We'll see how strong one of them is, but yeah three one one end one two ends and one in the middle for an eight footer. I should that should do the structure um uh for these edges here, screwing a bunch of like four screws per corner. I think that should be pretty good. um If we see any weakness on that, we can fix it.

A

J

A

Then put in put in polyethylene, so that's that's the cutting plan. Oh, should we spend a little bit of time just to say who who does what or yeah we should? We should.

A

He's doing the first thing he's taking the first panel and installing it on the corner.

K

What's the three jobs, the three things.

A

And what else post up the panels attach the glazing top plates? We can get all the two footers.

C

Yeah sure at least top light goes after glazing. First, on the panels.

A

You can stand them up at the same time as other team is attaching them, because once they're standing, it's just as easy to attach them as well, it's same thing, so those two can be absolutely parallel. So let's do that, let's, let's put on the glazing and and standing up the panels. At the same time, we got three inch screws.

A

K

On which, which team we want to stand in the panel.

C

Recording from the show never was like best version of everything um best juxtaposition, the show flag, kick dancing two things so.

A

There's two tasks: let's just let's: let's do like super granular, so who's installing the first panel, which is so we've got the hat, the the greenhouse like this panel, one two like the corner: let's stand up that corner since it's a defined corner. I don't know.

H

H

Otherwise I'll be on.

A

Let's call that we're going to go 1 to 16.

A

so we'll go typical order is looking from the outside we're moving to the right, so we're going to go around start at the corner. So that's going to be panel, one at the corner. Who's got panel, one richard.

H

Yeah I'll go for his onsen, I don't want people make sure I don't put it in the wrong place. I saw it, don't worry. We.

D

E

Are you spell your name again.

H

R-A-S-H-E-R-D, okay, rashard.

A

Who's got the panel 16 right next to richard.

C

um I guess I'll take 16, but I know it's gonna be throwing names with my name.

A

Right 16, so we just put numbers 1 through 16. um who's gonna, take one panel and put a piece of glazing on it, one six footer, which is going to be that. Well, let's say five, so it's out of the way still because people can be there, there could be like as soon as one is done. Number two can go up right. So let's do the person.

A

Well, let's take panel five.

A

Who's going to attach glazing to panel five, it's a specific task.

B

So once before are.

A

When we put them up there, they're going to have glazing on it. Okay, yeah.

C

Okay, so now you know what we're saying is like when I do 16 the.

A

C

Is going to be iron already.

A

No, it's not on there, yet we're okay, we're getting specific, so uh it's either one or the other. You can't do two that I think we get messed up all the time where you say: oh yeah just put the panels up and it's like put two or three tasks in there and people don't know what to do so. Let's do like one task. Okay, a granular task put that panel up. So you know the pan where the panel is right. You can stand it up like in five minutes and then we'll attach it.

A

How do we attach it? Take the start with the the screws that not the screws, the paddle.

J

A

um No, we can do the nails, the concrete nails we probably want to put in like. Let's see, we just need to stand it up and pretty much attach these two at the top. That's the most important thing as far as a nail or two yes put in like a take a hammer put in two nails like the concrete nails at the bottom. But the thing is about those nails: they don't hold too well, so they might just prevent they can come up easily, but they can keep you.

A

It depends how straight it is there, but they keep you from shifting off the foundation at least once you put the second one on um let the panels. So let's do this theory here. Let the panels determine the level. In other words, don't follow the floor like if the floor is going to be staggered down a little bit, don't follow that just keep them even and then we'll put the shims shims underneath them as we need to or a piece of pebble or thin strip of wood.

A

Whatever do that, because the structure is light enough, that I think we can do that and still keep everything straight at the end, because it's light enough.

A

Okay, penny, sixteen curtis, specifically, no that this was uh eric uh panel. Five just stand it: uh it's got no glaze. No, he can't stand it. Eric glazing, sorry, glazing, uh who's, got six glazing, okay,.

H

Now are the uh the the glaze panels being put on with um the liquid nail stuff again or is it no.

A

Screwing it through the battens, so so we talked about that. Battens screws um use the pre-existing holes in the battens clean off the bands. A little bit, maybe take one of those putty knives, uh just clean them off a little bit. There's some, I think, liquid nails on it remaining yeah that needs mechanical attachment with the the deck screws the two and a half inch deck screws.

A

Do you know where to find them? We got a bucket of those.

A

We have um yeah two and a half or.

J

I don't know yeah.

A

We've got buckets that we took from the.

A

uh We have the ones we we took off in the disassembly of the house, so let's just take those take those. uh We didn't really count up the number of screws, but you can take a picture.

A

Digital camera, all right.

B

A

Panel number seven glazing.

A

Who wants to do more?

A

I mean all the front so here, five, six, seven eight is glazing um and by that time, what's probably gonna happen is these walls are gonna, get filled in on the front and back without glazing, so who's got uh penny penny just keep going to this side until we get to the corner, at which point these can actually get installed.

A

We can stand up. These are getting glazed here because we don't know exactly where that point is so until we get uh let the panels decide the spacing for us. uh We can't stand ourselves there yet.

B

J

B

Glazing first or the six foot panels, yeah.

A

B

A

Six foot from the front, but all of them are six fronts at the front and sides. The back is eight just the back is eight.

J

A

So uh who's eight eight for the blazing.

H

For the taller candles, um if there's no or I don't mind helping for the panels in the back blades.

A

What do you got? Eight glazing.

A

F

Let's do it, let's start it. We got 40 minutes yeah.

A

There's more glazing: um well, let's see.

A

Curtis, so what do you end up taking so you're going to do like do like do like? I know so,.

F

A

Number 13: that's on the corner. There, that's the 8 foot, 8 foot, glazing, all right, 13, blade, 13 glazing, who's got 14 glazing. Can.

A

So 14., what am I doing panel? No, that's richard. Okay,.

A

Glazing eight foot uh and then we've got some on a right hand, side, who's, um glazing of the more six footers, so that's gonna be who's left still.

A

So that's number nine.

H

Are there 12 panels all together, 12 panels together.

A

All 16 and then including the the long, oh yeah, so who's glazing the roof panels. Let's do put one glaze roof panel.

D

A

Christian, you got 18, which is the second roof panel.

A

And and I'm going to take these cards out there, I'm going to crack down on anyone not doing that.

A

So that means first, if you're glazing make sure you identify your material if it's the panels here are cleaned like by the water hose there, there's ones on the solar panels, there's like three or four there. uh Those are.

K

Available too so.

A

K

Hit the numbers on them.

A

They don't have any numbers they're, either six eight or six 14 feet or two feet.

A

Now the eight foot panels yeah um yeah there should be panels that are six eight and fourteen and then there's two light super light. It's just it's plastic yeah, uh just.

G

Okay, um put it yeah. Can I show you how this would work as an alternative to doing this? Maybe in the future.