OpenJS Foundation OpenJS Foundation Collaborator Summit, Berlin, May 2019, 5 Jun 2019

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From YouTube: i18n: Moving forward with the i18n WG, Node.js Intl, and ECMA 402

Description

OpenJS Foundation Collaborator Summit, Berlin, 2019

More details: https://github.com/nodejs/summit/issues/164

A breakout session for members of the i18n WG to cover how we can continue to push forward efforts like:

* l10n: CommComm Initiatives for internationalizing the API docs, and the website redesign project.
* Intl in Node.js: How the i18n WG can focus on supporting current Intl development in node core, and get more folks to help out with the core WG.
* The i18n WG's role in ECMA 402: How we can scale the i18n WG's involvement and support for tc39 in ECMA 402, and what the current needs are that Node.js representatives can fulfill for pushing JavaScript's Intl specification forward.

A

Was the agenda somewhere actually yeah? That's what I'm doing now.

B

C

D

E

D

F

B

I'm Chris Mills I am the content. Team manager and content lead for MVNO Mozilla, and then we turned up to my session.

A

For work, consulting for Vincent finished consulting company here, because I found it interesting and fun to work on JavaScript localization projects. Message format is projects I maintain, which is now no bjs project also make plural and they're the intramural rules. Polyfill is his mine and I recently have started messing around with the fluent project that Mozilla has grown a compiler.

A

Have been hanging around occasionally, indeed,.

A

It was terrific, actually working one of the things for into floral rules to polical, for that to hit one of the things that is in the spec, because I was messing around with it yeah.

G

A

Take the same object and pass it to multiple different constructions and it just works. It's semi magic, yeah, yeah,.

F

G

I'm drew I've recently completed my graduation last about seven days.

F

G

So I'm from India actually have been involved in the website redesign and in transition D. Yes, also I will be joining as a software.

D

G

Actually I also I will be joining as a software engineer, the front-end engineering team at clear tax, which is one of the biggest or say the biggest platform for online taxi fillings in India.

E

Hey I'm, then the most organized person in the world- I'm Ben, hey hello,.

B

E

I work for envision the design and I am a part of the community committee for nodejs work on various initiatives, including internationalization, and so that's. What brings me good? Yeah, yeah, really exciting things in the design world and internationalizing.

E

E

E

H

I work on tc39 on different specifications, including I, can afford to, and so yeah would be. If, if folks are interested, one thing we could we could talk about is like what proposals are being discussed and what things we should discuss. But Emily mentioned message, format and well: I, guess that was sort of a different context, but to make internationalization work for node.js.

I

E

Might oh yeah, oh yeah, hey, can you introduce yourself Stephen, certainly.

C

So I'm Stephen Lewis, coming to you from sunny California, you can see the Sun in the background there. It's the Sun Sun is scheduled so and I work for IBM's, global foundation, esteem and I. Work on I, see you in cldr libraries, for with the Unicode project and with JavaScript. One thing I've I've been involved in is getting no I C to be on by default in node version 12.

C

That was a kind of my first foray into JavaScript land and I've also been involved with ECMO for two committee.

E

Felix, are you on the line there? Would you like to introduce yourself.

J

Yeah sure I actually just found this on Twitter and thought it would be interesting to follow along. So don't find that.

E

Sounds great welcome, well, uh what's your story.

J

I'm, a software engineer, I work remote from Germany for a company in San, Francisco called source graph and understand node enthusiasts.

E

Brad that sounds great. Well welcome excited to have you okay, so there is a agenda published if you go to the summit issues.

E

So if you go to the no J summit issues I, can everybody find that if they like and then go to should be at the top of the list and so I just updated it? What it's 164 scroll down to the bottom there? At the last comment, I published the agenda, as someone said, I think it was Dan. This can be a dynamic agenda, so please feel free to.

A

E

Know, there's enough here to fill up the next. You know 45 minutes or whatever I feel like. So let me start out with the first part of this session here. So first I'd like to reiterate what this working group is about.

E

Internationalization House is about three different concerns and one is translation, so translation infrastructure for translation of textual assets, like you, know our documentation and our websites, and how do we translate those into every language utilize?

E

The service, the crowd in service to perform as a landing for translators, to be able to translate those and we've set up the automated with the automation of putting translations in as PRS and to our documentation repository right now, so there's that translating our stuff and the next would be int Oh, implementation and OGS, which is where Stephen and other folks are involved and we'll get into talking more about Oh Stephen. Did you were you able to get the agenda.

C

E

Okay, cool awesome, so I'll give some room to Stephen to update us on that and just a little bit that we're excited to figure out how to support that team more and create ways to contribute to that initiative, and then we also concern ourselves with support for tc39 and 402. We're excited to hear from Dan today on current status, on all the things and figure out ways that we can and what the needs are and how we can support support them.

E

So, first I'm going to kick things off with the website redesign initiative, which is a community committee initiative and we've been talking a little bit about the our needs. But what I'd like to do now is create some action items for supporting new translations.

E

So this first item was mostly for me just to be able to connect on this yeah. So really where we're at right now is we've got translation infrastructure set up, but we need to target our your your textual assets right. So we need to figure out how to you know, consume that and then be able to.

E

Publish it as an NPM module so that you can, you know, consume it. So I think like we're just this kind of just like a quick update and then like you, leave on to other things, but we yeah I, guess the the next steps are to set up an NPM account published. You know, publish the the module and update in version from there, and all this to say you know, like I, think as we create a project board for that and I would love it.

E

If you know, what's that redesigned to keep in touch with that, but right now like what are your main concerns? You know yes, so we aren't.

F

Blocked from new features, quite yet, just like this it'll be a blocker for launch.

F

We have a lot of feature edition, static, node morrow morning first event, tomorrow morning, website redesign and what next steps are I but yeah, so we're we're not immediately blocked by it. It will be a locker for switching it over to the main domain when that choice was made. So I did from what it sounds like that, we're mostly going to be working in markdown files, we're gonna be pulling from a number of sources, I believe we don't want to break up documentation from the court ridox all of them on site.

F

We don't want to we're not at the moment all the kind of like learning documentation like getting started. Documentation does live in the node-red repo right now, but we may also start pulling in files from other repos like it would be nice if community page stuff could live in the Hong Kong repo. You know, try and keep documentation, we're living.

G

F

Team that is working with it on regular, so we're hoping to take this kind of federated model, pulling content and so we'll probably boom from open sources. I'm, not sure how that will affect.

F

We then have the flip side of this problem. We're actually after stuff is scooped in translated through and the mando is published. I need to make sure that we're updated so like we need something like greenkeeper or something up there just to keep keep this thing, auto updating on the regular. If we do go the module route for disseminating translations.

E

You're you're pulling from multiple markdown sources right.

F

Currently, it will be yeah right now, the page as it is just comes from up there. You design, it's literally just like a little digest that Deb is a microsite that just has getting started. Documentation like starting to learn note, but we're gonna expand it to have API Docs, homepage downloads, page community pages, so we'll be pulling from a number different.

A

Sources: okay, quick question: just for more intending to get in what.

I

F

E

So you mean the internationalization yeah yeah, so hey Jory,.

I

E

A problem so when the what the internationalisation, repo.

G

E

Going to export is a module containing all of the edge. It's like one, one giant, JSON blob with all the texture translated Texas yeah, so that it can be keyed and imported into the website or whatever the end destination is in it. So.

F

We may want to consider when publishing that module for like publish a different one for repo, um so that we're not like it's something bumps in the API Doc's. We need to bump the text. Translations or you know, learn documentation. Just keep that separation concerns there.

F

G

Something to consider is you kind.

F

Of craft, how that gets spit up also, we probably don't want it- is just like a giant monolithic, JSON blob, because you.

G

F

E

Floating this we're doing about splitting.

F

Or anything like that, so yes, it's kind of like.

I

E

Like one JSON from.

I

F

File, if I would be best because here.

E

F

Yeah, the API Doc's are already translated understanding yeah. We just don't have a published artifact that yes.

A

E

F

Action items: it sounds like our okay and no Jessica, so we can get translations for that. Come.

H

With a process for adding new.

F

Repost the translation pipeline, getting the module polishing down, there's actually and.

G

Then put action item. It's mostly only website redesign side.

F

Of how do we auto update and consume translations so that that's on us I think that's our integration, yeah.

F

E

You know that makes perfect sense. Yeah I think we're gonna have to figure out how we yes, definitely okay, I think you covered all that we're going to figure out how we want to split it up, consuming various or consuming disparate sources.

E

I think even I should stay in touch about how we're going to utilize that you know if that's I'm, just trying to cite like should internationalization consume one thing from you or should we target all those things to since they might all be the source of truth, because, like getting down to one source, the truth would be nice, but okay, yeah, great I, think in the interest of time and other stuff we can push along. Do you have any questions for me.

E

I also have other yeah I've been doing some documentation. Automation, uh I work for this sort of thing. So when would you think when you do get to the point to where you need to set up like a green keeper, or something like that? Let me know because there's definitely ways that we should hook it into releases. I think is the most important thing. So you know cool okay,.

E

Nothing like that I'm going to refresh and just see if anybody I named ik. We updated this completely. Also.

E

Okay or no, it's a I'm, tired, okay. So let's move on to int L in no js' and the specifically Stevens area of expertise here and I.

E

My my only question here: free Steven as far as facilitating a 18m repo is something I've noticed is there's a few people in the int L github team or like in the nodejs team, and it just seems, like you know, there's not a great window for contributors to line or to help with getting into you know supporting int L like in ojs core and like it's like there's a few like a handful of active people working on those issues. We have a tag.

E

You know that like right for whatever but like how can we support that group more I'd like to like create a contributing guide? That kind of thing and what are your thoughts on that? And then maybe you can give us an update on how ing line oj n.e you'd like to talk about sure.

C

Well, the one and one thing to to to keep in mind is that the IDL object in no jeaious its implementation comes directly from p8.

C

So on the nodejs side, a lot of the the items are are more in the realm of kind of packaging and options and configuration specifically data loading is, is the it is often been the elephant in the room so to speak and as far as the as what's in note itself, and so a lot of the eine seele contribution, work actually happens in v8, which is where the actual implementation is for ITL and then the implementation of what v8 is calling is in the ICU project, which is the international components for unicode.

C

It's a open source, C, C++ and also Java library from Unicode itself, and so a lot of the work happens there or in the cldr repository, which is the locale data, which is also from Unicode. The good thing is that the Unicode repositories are now all on github.

C

That was a migration just sealed era, just moved a couple. A month ago. Yes, yes, party, weave.

E

Around the table, people are just saying yeah, yes, so.

C

It should be a lot easier to come access, the what's happening with those projects and even open a PR into upstream. So I know if that answers your question, but in the so, for example, from my my history getting nodejs into sorry, getting international turned on by default in nodejs. 12 was a major milestone because the until support was there before, but it was optional and had this build process and the big the big issue with that was data. Loading and data loading remains a major issue.

C

There's a an open, open issue in the full ICU project. I'm, just gonna try to type while I'm speaking here.

E

C

Yeah I'm typing directly into that, if I, don't click close one, okay, so I put a link to a open question on full ICU NPM and it's kind of a question of whether the data loading for fall ICU should should move out of NPM into Adobe get because we get a lot of concerns. There was one just went open just a few two days ago about the way the FO ICU project. Actually works and fall. I see is just a loader. It's not!

C

It doesn't do anything fancy so anyway, if I could get some eyes on that that one, but the idea is to basically pull from IC from github. Instead of trying to do this, hacky post install sub npm install that oh I see. Does it.

E

C

Be great to have a contributing guide, I think what I, what I'd started on previously was something that tries to explain the stack, basically where all these different pieces come from, if you're at the level of hey the date format is wrong when I try to print this date, you're offering an end up having looking at that at the cldr side, for example,.

E

Yeah, that's great. No I really appreciate your work on that and being able to.

E

Like I think that's something that we can evolve and figure out how to so. The thing that I perceive is there's going to like looking from looking from sort of like a high level, people who are getting involved in this repository library and the work at the internationalisation working group. We're just gonna need a verbose, contributing guide that basically brings to light everything that you think you just said. You know like from sort of the ground up and yeah.

C

E

Like that's something that I would I would love to do to focus on sharing like I mean even what I see you, you know, unicode and I see you and cldr, and all these things are and how they work and how they support.

E

You know the int L object and that sort of thing so I think like creating a contribution guide there that is sort of like a knowledge dump and then how to support Unicode would be a great place to start as well as yeah I guess. um I just want to figure out how we can bleed more help into what you're doing so, the more that we evolve. That conversation through the ITN repo of the better I think right.

C

E

C

E

Have thoughts or questions on what Stephen discovered.

E

Or potentially like to take the conversation in another direction based on int L in them.

J

What about shipping full I see you always by default.

C

Yeah that that's a that there isn't there's an issue open, that's for exactly that and I can I can try to link that one in here I mean I thought that would be my preference I mean the the terms. English only are kind of grading shall we say: I mean that's kind of what I spend my career. Trying to avoid is English only, but the the the issue with that is is is just download slice, but I'll put a link to the issue.

C

I would I would certainly support that, but the other thing that we could do is have downloads provide both so basically just how a prebuilt binary there's a small one. If you really want to download a small one, but basically you know encourage people to just download just download the full full content.

F

C

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C

Bloat, if it's a basically double I, doubles the size of the download, so yeah there's.

J

Like 40 percent and.

H

I guess it'll get worse over time. Any.

C

Only get worse over time, I mean it's 35.

J

Megabytes to 49 megabytes, yeah.

C

I mean it is a real it's it's a real issue: I mean it's not a it's, not a trivial and I, don't I, just don't I'm, trying not finding it at the same time. I guess I shouldn't search and talk at the same time. Yeah, but it is, it is a I mean it is a real issue and I understand.

C

I mean I, run I, run note on a Raspberry, Pi and and small devices, and so there are cases where, where people are more concerned about the the disk space, then then then it's actualization, you know not everything has text content flowing through it and you also might have some thing.

C

That's constrained in terms of no runtime footprint like if you're right, if you're running on a server and you're paying for the disk space, you know, but so it's a it's a valid concern, but I think I think there's some value to having the default be be full just so that it reduces the pain point, because it's always the issue right. We get these issues once in a while and node. Basically, my date format doesn't work and the reason is because you're not using English and it it what's the phrase the objects. The objects aren't.

C

Don't look great on that.

J

It's like it's like how many people are in this situation, where they need to run node on, like a Raspberry Pi, a very constrained versus how many people are there that are just running node in development environments to run backpack or run in a container or on the server. But they don't really care. They probably dump like tens and thousands of megabytes and node modules. Yeah.

G

J

It so like could like the default distribution, have it included and then there's a another binary distribution like a separate package like no no ICU or something like that. That is like the raspberry pi users can download, and they would probably be aware that they they want to go for the minimum one more so than the people not know.

A

Icu, it's ICU with English right.

F

Yeah sorry, where.

A

Did is no I, don't think that personally, I don't believe that an argument that, oh because of our thing, we'd like to increase the size of node by 50% or 100%. Oh sorry, that's not gonna fly, but would it be conceivable or considerable to think about D specializing English and rather make it explicit that this distribution that you're downloading has just English in it and possibly in parallel with.

I

A

Of different other alternatives, yeah.

C

Yeah I mean that's just that's. That's really just a question as far as what you know what we want to provide you know basically does this rise to the level of where we want to where, where, when people go to download that this is the this, is there a be choice.

A

They've got an a/b choice. Now we just don't tell them that you're begging just think yeah right bill.

F

J

Now they have an H.

A

Is good for you.

E

F

I, absolutely we don't even publish a binary right now, language right, you don't.

J

Need to get that it at that time and they only have an a choice: yeah.

F

I'm gonna have something that's crazy and comes from not probably I mean a full grasp for the the tech involved, but it's something that we can't turn into packages. So they you have a use case for it install it. Is there any remote possibility of having that type of opt-in as.

C

A package yeah.

F

C

So basically, there's a package called fall ICU and if you do npm install full ICU, it turns around and duck and installs installs the data for you as a package. But the thing is that the the data needs to be configured at startup time of noted v8. So you can't you can't just include it. It's not really! It's not really a module.

C

It's kind of just a post installed loader hack, but it's a way that you can. You can get the data on your disk by adding it to package JSON, and this is documented in the in the in the readme yeah on the agenda. We have a link to fall. I see NPM number 36 is my question about pulling from ICU github release. Instead of doing a and a post install sorry having a post install script, just do it download, basically like a just to fetch from github rather than turning around and reinstalling a sub package.

C

That's not really a package.

D

It's really there's no problem with it right and it's very easy for the programmers perspective right, yeah I mean I. Guess it's not like a regular node module, but silly it's very easy right. It's.

C

Easy, yes, but- and you know you can look at the if you, if you look at the link, there's a link tissue install process is broken unsafe. So it's it is it's easy when it works, basically I call it a hack because it's not first of all, including it as a module, doesn't actually get you data.

D

C

You have to start up the node. You have to start the node runtime with the right option to include the the data.

F

C

You know npm install and require this module, doesn't do what npm install and require a module usually does which is pulling functionality. So that's hack, number one. This is hack. Number two is that it's you know any package manager is trying to manage the transitive dependencies and this in this it breaks that by what when in post install it goes and installs another package and which package installs depends on the Indian Asst and the version of node that you're running, so you can't predict it at you know original install time.

C

So it's that's. Why I call it a hack. You know it's a convenience, it's kind of a convenience when it works, but it's it's. It's not the best. It's not the best approach. I've.

J

Used a full ICU by like setting an environment variable in my rental file that points to the global node modules for ICU, but then, like once, you upgrade a node version right with NPM. Suddenly notes fails to star, because it says like well couldn't find the ICU data I'm.

G

J

Ya and then you have to like on every upgrade, you have to reinstall whole ICU it just it wouldn't wait way more sense. If that was not inside the node modules, folder I don't know some somehow managed out-of-band, not yeah.

C

That would that would be good and it really it could be. It could go somewhere else. Easily I mean node could could have a directory that it it it expects.

C

Now and- and we we looked at there's an old issue to do to basically detect foal I, see you venture got close just because you know really I needed I needed to figure out how to how to test it on all platforms.

C

But all I'll put a link to that. One also.

E

Awesome, if you do that, that'd be great Steven I! Think in the interest of time we're gonna.

I

E

Thank you so much for your updates. I've.

B

E

I really appreciate it excited to connect with you again and spin up. You know some regular working group sessions again, I think the action item I'm taking from here as well is to update our contributing guide and kind of work with you on that yep.

E

Okay, let's spin over to what's going on with tc39 in ECMO, 402 I think the you know the main question that I or the main I guess rhetorical question I'd like to answer more over time as how this working group can specifically support the 402 specification in a way that is useful and what are the needs and how do we create a more meaningful collaboration over time.

H

Yet so I could talk about the difference across for to proposes that they are under discussion. Also Valerie I, don't know if you're interested in presenting part of this or I didn't ask you to yes.

D

You don't know, go ahead. Oh Oh.

A

Technically I believe we have 15 minutes for this session left on the other hunt. There's nothing else scheduled for this room, so.

H

I'm gonna go to another thing after this, so.

H

The Intel API provides things like date-time format, where you put in a date and you you can put in formatting options like including the locale, but also including different, like which components of the date you care about, and it gives you a string which is locale dependent. So there's there's a bunch of ongoing ongoing feature, work to add more functionality to this like there's one PR that would add sort of Chinese calendar functionality, certain kinds of like informal, related lunar calendar.

H

Sorry, not lunar calendar like 60-year cycle things, but also about millisecond digits, there's also with like number format. There's ongoing work to add features like unit formatting or approximation with sort of millions or thousands.

H

We also have new for matters like relative time format, which I think is shipping in node I, don't know which version but and and Paroles which, which Emily discussed.

H

And we're considering additional things like that. There's also format format range to show the difference between two dates. So these could be useful in internationalized web apps. When they're trying to generate strings, you can use the same functionality on both the client and the server.

H

That's the hope. The web compat issue is is for the older features, they're very broadly supported and I. Think you can. You can count on the basics of date-time format, number format and collator being there, and then the other ones are more mixed and so I'm wondering like do you face these needs in node and what what functionality might be useful for you yeah one.

H

One high-level thing is something like project fluent: should we should we eventually standardize something like like that, which provides not just like a message, formatting format string which could unify a lot of things when you have to get translators, then you there's some point where you're choosing a format, and there are various different tools that use different formats and then, but also not just that, but also the format for the the bundle which would be used which which has meaning both on the client and the server potentially and so project fluent goes in this area, and this is sort of a frequently requested thing for echo 402.

H

So it's something that I'm kind of wondering what, whether you have thoughts on these things.

D

Also, just to say, one thing about the compatibility on browsers is that really Firefox and Chrome and Safari are like up-to-date and have been really implementing Intel, as we've been developing it and Ekrem afford to. But Microsoft is far behind but, as we know, they're they're also switching out their JavaScript engine to the eight so going forward like soon enough, we'll have Intel and all the and all the browsers. Well.

H

If you're interested in working on JavaScript engines, there's still a lot of exciting work to do like.

B

On the Firefox and like.

H

G

H

I'm not aware I guess.

D

Safari is not really working on new, but.

H

Features but they've come to the meetings they're all.

D

Exist and so the great thing.

G

H

Have like buy-in from all three browsers about this and the person from Safari actually said that he'd be up for mentoring. Somebody wants to come in and implement this. So if you're interested in getting involved in C++ coding and.

I

H

Interested in improving with compatibility of these things, this could be great. Please I, like.

A

How you said all three browsers.

H

It's very sad for all three browsers.

H

You know: that's the.

A

World chromium truth note itself, they're, not quite complete, I mean there are still a couple bugs still out there. The reason why I have an Intel or world rules polyfill, but.

G

A

Because the minimum fraction digits is still not working practically anyone.

H

You have any she open for that.

J

H

There is so I'd recommend writing an email to Frank dang who's working on implementing this hidden.

A

Really he's not commented on that in February, something oh yeah 886! It's on the v8! Well, I'll. Take a look at that, but it's like nearly complete.

H

What do you say? The bug number was eight eight six, six.

A

Oh yeah, that this is quite detailing regarding message formatting, which he mentioned earlier. I, don't think, there's a reason to do anything quite right away, because fluid is.

A

The JavaScript implementation of that is still in zero point X and there's a like active discussion about the the API for that and it's the current API will change and break, and it's just there's a discussion. We're going to break it down this way or that way, so it's not stable by any means. Yet.

H

Okay, oh, it looks like they're they're, making good progress on tissue.

A

I mean that when did the rules infraction ditches, I think the only thing that the now fluent, for example, is instructing use the angel pool rules polyfill in order to get that one working everything else from until at least they're not saying that anything else in topology.

H

B

E

I think it'll be interested moving along. Are there other proposals that you would like to.

H

So there's like until segment air is undergoing a bunch of potential change.

D

H

Describe it well,.

D

You should actually okay.

H

Until display names is like a way for you to get certain big things like the names of all the countries in the world in all the different languages, which is useful. If you build a like a region, picker well yeah, they you, you might have heard like. Oh the Unicode people want you to say words like code white. It turns out there's all sorts of different words that in a nationalization world, you're supposed to use like region, rappin I wasn't.

C

Gonna say anything but.

H

Yeah you guys, you could probably walk us through a lot of these yeah.

C

That's one of those well not mean Antarctica is not a country, you know, I mean it's, you can take a it, doesn't have to get political to to describe that.

H

Right and then like what? What is a language wait? I guess people are okay using the word language, but.

C

Language is okay, yeah and locale is supposed to be a place right anyway. Go.

H

Yeah, it also includes, like names includes name, is for a bunch of these different things, and so that should help well on the way. But you help reduce the binary size that has to be shipped over on the server I think it has the same function, but it doesn't reduce the size of things to get shipped over, but it reduces the amount of stuff that you have to did.

H

I do that you have to pull off of you, know some NPM module and you can instead have a sort of higher level looking API for it and.

A

It allows you to externalize issues like the Czech Republic being check yet.

H

Yeah did that happen? Yes,.

C

This happened, thing is they're they're, always they're. Always things like this. You know, Swaziland is now Isla, teeny and and such and but even besides, changes just the the the load in in translation. You know, there's there's a lot of translated content. You know my I work with our internal translation across the seas and tools and a lot of times people will have submit for translation.

C

You know a list of a list of regions, a list of languages and if you don't have to translate the same stuff over and over, you know, you can spend your money and time on something else.

A

E

Mean there's a million application reasons for having display names really available. You know through the but.

A

E

A

The megabyte problems.

D

Because the size of the browser so.

D

C

I expect, though, that that data is already there for for on the browser mnk pieces, but.

C

A

About the size of the download of the browser, einar.

C

Yes, but some of the but the the I mean if the browser already shows an accept language. Pop-Up that says enter the languages you want to translate. Then the browser already has a translated list of languages, for example. Yes,.

A

That's getting bigger now, I.

H

Think so I think this is something that we've been looking into in this group in it, for both today I come up four or two things: there's data, that's already in the browser stuff, like units use not in Chrome, but that it's there in iOS. So then it's kind of okay or moderately okay. They ended up reducing the list of units that are supported. So then the increment in binary size was less and that's you know working through the ization.

H

Is there really kind of pragmatic people update their browser less if they have to download a bigger browser? Maybe I.

A

Mean arguably, of course, all of this is shared, not just big script engines, but the whole ecosystem of everything running yeah on your system, so it is arguable, definitely getting that data and making it available ought to be on an even higher level. Effectually with the distributor distro.

H

That you use yeah, arguably everybody should be updating their operating system frequently and.

F

That's it: okay,.

H

That doesn't that happens. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Other times, chrome, statically, we've seen it's ICU and you can use some resources. I'm I, don't know all the all the details, yeah.

C

H

Is an issue it.

C

Is worth noticing issues? Doesn't it's not a? It doesn't come for free yeah.

E

I'm curious because I'm new to the browser implementation side of things like what kind of footprint is adding these names you know incur and then like in comparison like how big of an increase is that.

H

About two numbers that we were talking about for this particular one for this ins: old display names- and there was one version where, like the chrome binary, would have been 700, kilobytes, larger yeah.

I

H

They had a bunch of different alternatives, calculated out for like what, if we looked at this stuff, what if it looks too bad stuff, you know I, don't know what that in I. Don't know. If that's what the question was you.

E

Know it is yeah like what's the data size and I'm like in comparison to I, don't know like in this in the standardization process, like what I mean, how much data is acceptable to increase with something like int L. You know like what is there like a typical acceptable? You know whatever anything.

D

Right, this is being discussed really, it's.

H

So no I mean nobody.

D

H

And gets upset yeah.

G

H

Usually, like a different team that focuses on reducing the their binary size from the team, that's trying to add the features.

H

Complicated making process least that's how it seems at least our time. People talk about it for Chrome and Firefox. I have no idea how how a safari Inka structured, I.

B

Was gonna say: I haven't got exact numbers, but you constantly see discussions in the game platform tango nice to shave. This bill motion moobus on.

G

H

Graph is sometimes like creeping upwards in chrome and then like putting this deliberate effort and fit it down, and then it creeps upwards again, because it's like writing any code. It all increases the size right.

E

Sure and I wonder if anyone has an idea of like a max size that they would like their browser to be.

H

F

I

G

H

Does have such a size, it doesn't seem to be making it through to our discussions and.

C

Also, you know where we're always trying to add more. You know a colleague of mine is is going to visit the the Chickasaw, a Chickasaw people and some other other groups, language groups, to try to bootstrap their language, support of the Native American languages.

I

C

But then, but now you have new locales that are coming in basically so.

F

What's your application.

F

That might some.

G

Of that logic,.

F

Or any of these initial here could.

A

You actually make bits of the ICU data.

C

Yeah I had I had thought about this. There's the shortness. There's no mechanism for that now I thought about something like a callback handler or if you don't find data, then callback to a user function and say: let me go fetch it for you.

F

E

C

E

A wrap-up because it's a three past the hour but I definitely have some action items here that I'd like to take for kind of I, think it's more about making the contribution process for proposals and how to get involved less abstract to people who may want to contribute for the first time. That sort of thing that's really important, and we can do that through internationalisation, but just having this conversation has been really really good to get visibility into it and I'm definitely learning a lot too.

E

So I'm really I'm really really thankful for you all to be here. If it's cool I'd like to take a picture.

I

C

Put a link on that lazy load. Question I'll put a couple since.

F

E

F

Every language of French.

F

E

Thank you for coming. Stephen you're.

C

E

I really I really really appreciate it. Felix is already online I was said. Thank you, but I really appreciate it for coming so early and thank you for always being up for doing rad stuff. Okay,.

C

E

Hey we'll see you next time see you.

I