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From YouTube: OpenJS Foundation Standards Team
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A
Oh
anyway,
on
that
note,
we're
live
on
youtube
and,
in
addition
to
talking
about
the
fun
of
very
you
know,
grown-up
things
we
want
for
christmas,
we're
going
to
talk
about
standards
as
part
of
the
openjs
foundation
standards.
Working
group
meeting
we've
got
a
nice
agenda
for
today.
We've
got
a
wonderful
group
of
people,
as
we
always
do,
and
we
start
with
our
announcements
for
for
the
week
any
announcements
from
this
group
project
announcements
follow-ups
from
standards
meetings.
You
recently
attended
upcoming
things.
A
We
should
be
bearing
in
mind
if
you're
speaking
somewhere,
if
your
project
has
a
talk
somewhere.
Anything
like
that
that
you
all
would
like
to
share
before
I
give
you
my
usual
long
list
of
stuff.
B
I
think
I'm
speaking
at
js
poland
sometime
soon,
and
I
think
it's
going
to
be
about
like
open
governance
and
open
js
foundation,
so
that's
kind
of
cool
and
then
project
related.
I
don't
know
if
you
all
know
but
like
node.js
has
had
a
bunch
of
releases
lately
version
17
is
now
current.
16
is
lts
and
I
think
is
that
it
yeah
the
12
go.
No,
I
think
that's
in
april
anyway,
bunch
of
releases
and
stuff.
C
Tpac
was
last
week
there's
a
lot
of
things.
Most
of
the
recordings
are
actually
available
online.
C
If
you
want
to
check
any
of
those
out,
I
spoke
recently
at
adblock
dev
summit
about
has,
which
is
a
pseudo
class
that
was
provided
by
jquery
all
the
way
back
100
years
ago
and
jquery
foundation
before
was
like
active
in
trying
to
get
it
into
css.
Finally,
and
it
is
actually
being
worked
on,
so
I
think
that's
kind
of
a
cool
thing.
A
I
think
that's
a
very
cool
thing
and
speaking
of
jquery
and
cool
in
the
same
sentence.
A
It's
definitely
experiencing
this
moment
of
being
retro
cool,
go
check
out
if
you
haven't
seen
it
the
article
and
on
the
new
stack
about
the
jquery
project
and
a
lot
of
the
infrastructure
work
that
our
colleagues
here
at
openjs
foundation
have
been
doing
to
revamp
its
infrastructure
and
you
know
not
to
throw
shade
at
any
other
project
or
anything.
But
it's
you
know
still
still
widely
used,
so
we're
still
maintaining
it
and
and
taking
really
good
care
of
it.
So
it's
a
great
great
piece
so
so
yeah,
that's
a
good
note.
A
Let
me
go,
get
it
let's
see,
and
while
I
pull
that.
D
Member
summit,
all
of
the
keynotes
are
being
streamed
so
check
them
out
now
or
later
today,
jim
zemlin
announced
a
new
tool
that
makes
it
easier
to
have
sort
of
a
dashboard
into
what
your
company
is
doing
with
a
variety
of
projects
at
the
linux
foundation,
of
which
there
are
750
open
source
projects
under
the
umbrella,
so
pretty
cool
check
it
out
and
I'll
provide
some
more
information
in
slack
for
you
all
as
well.
A
Speaking
of
the
the
member
summit,
so
yesterday
we
always-
or
we
try
to
take
advantage
of
the
member
summit
as
an
opportunity
for
the
openjs
foundation
board
to
have
one
in-person
meeting
which
they
they
did
ish
because
you
know
we're
still
in
a
hybrid
world
post
pandemic.
So
yesterday
we
that
board
meeting
went
pretty
long.
We're
rescheduling
the
public
session
as
a
result,
so
just
keep
your
eyes
peeled
for
a
new
invite
on
the
public
calendar
for
the
public
board
meeting,
hopefully
sometime
early
next
week.
A
So
apologies
for
for
that,
but
we
will.
We
will
have
it
rescheduled.
A
Let's
see
the
other
thing
we
typically
have.
Is
the
programming
committee
meeting
that
this
week
that's
likely
cancelled
because
of
folks
being
out
at
member
summit
so
but
and
if
you
want
to
get
involved
with
programming
for
openjs
world
that
calendar
invite
is
on
the
public
calendar
as
well.
We'd
love
to
have
folks
there
any
excitement
from
the
tc39
meeting
last
week
to
report
I'm
assuming
jordan's,
not
here.
I
know
he
was
there
richard,
I'm
saying
you
you
had
some
stuff
he
presented
so.
E
A
So,
okay,
so
that
was
last
week
go
check
out
the
agenda
if
you're
curious
what
they
covered,
and
I
think
that
that's
it,
I
think
that's
it
for
announcements
is
that
it
for
announcements
right
now
robin
do
you
think
I
think.
D
A
Cool
all
right,
we
can
dive
into
our
agenda,
and
so
with
that,
I
want
to
welcome
jonathan
lips
from
appium
for
for
an
issue
that
he
opened
on
our
repo
jonathan.
Would
you
like
to
kind
of
provide
some
context
and
kick
off
this
discussion.
F
Yes,
in
fact,
I
made
a
presentation
to
hide
behind
with
the
whole
context
slide,
so
I'll
just
go
ahead
and
bring
that
up
momentarily.
F
Oh
sweet,
I
don't
have
to
look
at
my
face.
There
we
go.
Can
someone
confirm
that
we
can
see
the
slides
here?
Awesome,
cool,
so
yeah?
I
did
not
know
this
group
existed
until
recently,
so
I
am
relatively
context-free
myself
in
terms
of
the
larger
picture
of
this
group,
but
from
what
I
understand
from
from
robin
and
others
seems
like
an
awesome
new
wing
of
the
of
the
foundation
so
really
excited
to
to
talk
to
you
all
and
anyone
else,
who's
listening
in
now
or
later.
F
The
the
basic
topic
I
wanted
to
bring
up
is
something
I've
been
thinking
about
for
a
long
time,
which
is
the
possibility
of
a
standard
for
ui
automation,
by
which
I
mean
tooling,
that
allows
you
to
write
code
to
manipulate
the
user
interface
of
an
application,
the
same
way
that
a
user
would
you
know
this
is
popularized
with
tools
like
like
selenium
for
web
or
a
variety
of
what's
now
known
as
rpa
tools
for
other
platforms,
and
the
context
here
is
that
appian
has
been
working
on
helping
solve
this
problem
for
users
for
a
long
time.
F
It
was
an
open,
js
project
before
that.
It
was
in
the
js
foundation.
It
started
like
nine
years
ago
when
I
was
working
at
sauce
labs
and
the
point
of
appium,
if
you
haven't
ever
heard
of
it
before
yourself,
is
to
provide
basically
a
selenium
webdriver
compatible
interface
for
platforms.
Other
than
desktop
web
browsers,
which
was
the
target
kind
of
the
goal
of
the
selenium
project,
was
to
provide
automation
capabilities
for
web
browsers,
but
they
didn't
really
want
to
do
anything
beyond
that.
F
So
the
appium
project
basically
started
as
a
hypothesis
that
of
all
the
kinds
of
automation
protocols
we
could
use
to
support
automation
on
a
variety
of
platforms.
Why
not
just
use
one
that
already
exists?
You
know.
Hopefully
that
is
a
decision
that
is
agreeable
to
a
standards
committee.
I
think
you
know
use
of
standards
and
the
fewer
standards
and
the
more
effort
there
is
around
existing
standards
and
extending
existing
standards,
I
think
is,
is
obviously
a
good
thing.
F
So
you
know,
appium
is
pretty
popular
among
especially
qa
engineers,
people
whose
job
is
to
write
tests,
test
code
to
test
applications
who
may
not
be
the
same
people
that
develop
the
applications,
and
so
I'm
here
talking
to
you
all,
because
I'm
looking
for
some
feedback
ideas
helps
help
on
what
maybe
the
next
step
should
be
for
this
proposal
that
ui
automation
should
be
a
standard
for
more
than
just
the
desktop
web.
F
So,
ultimately,
you
know
I've
been
working
on
kind
of
an
argument
that
I'm
gonna
you
know
share
with
you,
not
because
I
think
you're
really
the
people
that
ultimately
need
to
be
convinced,
but
because
I'm
looking
for
help
in
you
know
what
to
do
with
this
argument,
but
ultimately,
I'm
hoping
that
the
platform
vendors
so
folks
that
own
application
platforms,
so
the
the
apples
and
googles
and
microsoft's
of
the
world
will
buy
into
this
argument
and
hopefully
decide
to
create
their
own
implementations
of
a
standard
that
we
can
all
then
use
moving
forward.
F
That
is
the
context.
Hopefully,
that
is
is
clear.
So
then,
the
the
the
kind
of
part
of
the
argument
that
I
think
I
don't
hopefully
don't
need
to
make
to
this
group,
but
probably
would
need
to
make
to
other
audiences
are
kind
of
the
basic
facts
like
the
fact
that
good
quality
applications
are
better
than
poor
quality
applications,
and
that
automated
testing
of
applications
actually
helps
to
improve
app
quality
and
that
we
should
have
well
designed
tools
that
enable
these
types
of
automated
testing
practices
and
continuous
integration
and
stuff.
F
Like
this,
you
know
the
part
that
I
would
want
to
hopefully
make
clear
to
platform
vendors
is
that
in
the
same
way
that
they're
invested
in
developer
experience
on
their
platform,
they
should
also
be
invested
in
the
tester
experience
on
their
platform.
To
the
extent
that
development
and
testing
are
you
know
all
parts
of
the
same
software
development
cycle
that
result
in
applications
which
can
be
either.
F
You
know
good
or
bad,
and
will
either
make
their
platforms
more
money
or
not
right.
So
that's.
I
think
it's
a
pretty
straightforward
argument
that
when
it
comes
to
application,
quality
testing
tools
are
just
as
important
as
kind
of
developer
experience
and
other
other
things
that
the
platform
vendors
create
to
try
and
get
people
to
lock
themselves
into
building
apps
on
their
platforms.
F
So
the
kind
of
next
step
of
the
argument
is
that,
specifically,
I
think
platform
vendors
should
invest
in
ui
automation,
tools
and
building
them.
Of
course
they
should
invest
in
all
kinds
of
tools.
This
is
just
kind
of
digging
a
little
deeper
into
that
broader
argument,
trying
to
say
that
ui
automation
is
a
useful
type
of
technology
that
platform
vendors
should
create,
and
in
fact
they
already
do
this.
F
So
I
think
this
is
an
argument
that
they
already
by
into
if
we
are
just
talking
about
mobile,
which
is
kind
of
the
most
popular
mode
of
of
usage
for
appium
apple,
you
know,
promotes
their
xcui
test
technology
for
for
ios
applications
and
google
has
several
technologies.
Ui
automator
is
an
older
one.
Espresso
is
a
newer
one,
and
these
are
you
know,
within
the
category
of
ui
automation,
technologies
that
I'm
talking
about,
so
they
already.
F
Hopefully
believe
this,
but
I
think
it's
worth
pointing
out
that
ui
automation
is
a
good
idea
not
to
not
to
be
used
as
the
only
type
of
automation
in
a
in
a
ci
pipeline
or
whatever,
but
as
one
one
aspect
of
it,
because
it
is
automation
of
the
same
thing
that
the
user
is
actually.
F
D
F
Step
of
the
argument
is
to
say
that
well
platform,
vendors.
It
would
actually
be
beneficial
for
everybody,
including
you.
If
there
were
a
standard,
ui
automation,
you
know
protocol
that
you
built
these
ui
automation,
technologies
against.
F
You
know,
thinking
again
from
the
perspective
of
a
platform
vendor
who,
whose
incentives
are
often
aligned
with
users
but
in
some
ways,
potentially
not
aligned
with
users
like
we
could
argue
that
platform
lock-in
of
whatever
kind
is
disadvantageous
to
the
user,
whereas
very
advantageous
to
the
vendor.
So,
whereas
both
vendors
and
users,
incentives
are
aligned
when
it
comes
to
application
quality,
for
example,
or,
let's
say
the
number
of
applications
available
on
a
platform.
F
So
I
think
this
has
led
to
you
know
different
kinds
of
what
we
call
lock-in
right
across
the
across
the
technology
stacks
that
the
vendors
provide
so
kind
of
again.
With
that
problem
framed
which
isn't
a
relevant
problem
for
this
group
per
se,
but
more
for
the
the
platform
vendors,
I
think
we
could
argue
that
there
is
definitely
room
for
standards-based
technologies
all
around-
maybe
let's
say
more-
of
the
the
periphery
of
their
tooling.
So
it's
a
little
less
scary
to
think
about
so
a
ui
automation
tool.
F
You
know,
following
a
standard,
I
would
argue,
is
you
know,
actually
provides
more
benefits
for
a
platform
vendor
than
you
know,
keeping
that
tool
as
an
element
of
their
their
developer
lock-in
strategy,
or
something
like
that.
F
F
So
I
I
think,
having
worked
on
the
appian
project,
for
you
know
nine
years
now
that
I
think
appium
is
actually
a
good
candidate
for
a
starting
draft
of
what
that
ui
automation
standard
could
be.
The
the
biggest
reason
is
that
it
actually
is
already
standards
based.
So
you
know,
the
the
primary
work
here
is
being
done
by
the
w3c
webdriver
standard,
which
already
exists,
appium
decided
to
simply
extend
that
existing
protocol,
and
we
have
done
a
fair
amount
of
work
to
extend
it
such
that
it
is
now.
F
You
know
quite
a
broader
protocol
and
some
of
the
extensions
I
think,
are
a
bit
chaotic
and
and
could
stand
to
be
tightened
up
and
that's
one
of
the
benefits
of
actually
engaging
in
a
standards
process
around
it.
All
that
to
say
the
core
of
appium
is
is
already
an
existing
standard,
so
I
think
it's
a
kind
of
easy
cell
thermostat
standards
perspective
to
say,
like
we
have
this
thing:
that's
working
on
the
web.
Why
don't?
We
simply
extend
that
to
other
platforms
and
look.
F
F
The
other
reason
is
that,
because
appium
is
pretty
popular,
it's
already
kind
of
a
de
facto
standard
like
there's,
not
another
tool
which
is
cross
platform,
which
is
open
source
and
all
these
things.
That
appium
is
that,
are
you
know
anywhere
near
as
popular
as
appium?
In
fact,
appium,
I
believe,
is
quite
a
bit
more
popular
than
the
the
natively
provided
platform
tools.
I
don't
have
a
lot
of
data
to
support
that.
I
do
have
this.
F
You
know
fun
graph
of
you
know:
google
trends
kind
of
interest
in
appian,
where
you
can
see
that
despite
a
dip
recently,
which
I'm
I'm
assuming
that
this
is
just
going
to
keep
going
back
up
so
that
without
evidence
of
course,
but
anyway,
you
can
see
that
regardless,
like
appium
as
a
search
term,
is
you
know
an
order
of
magnitude
more
popular
than
the
native
tools
from
apple
and
google,
for
example.
F
F
But
I
think
that
the
reason
appium
is
popular
is
that
it
does
unlock
certain
use
cases
that
the
vendor
provided
tools.
Don't
you
can
write
your
appium
test
scripts
in
any
language,
because
appium
is
based
around
the
webdriver
client
server
model
and
that
enables
whole
teams
of
people
to
do
the
job
of
ui
automation
that
wouldn't
be
able
to,
in
many
cases
a
lot
of
ui
automation,
engineers,
software
developers
and
tests.
You
know
whatever
the
role
is
called,
they
might
just
know
one
programming
language.
F
They
might
have
learned
it
specifically
for
the
purpose
of
testing
that
might
not
be
comfortable
in
objective
c
or
swift
or
whatever
it
is,
and
these
teams
of
testers
you
know
they
have
their
own.
They
have
their
own
needs
and
they're
often
actually
already
experienced
with
selenium
so
giving
them
a
tool
which
works
from
their
perspective.
F
Exactly
the
same
as
selenium
turned
out
to
be,
you
know,
turned
out
to,
I
think,
make
appium
quite
popular
plus
the
fact
that
it's
all
open
source
and
all
these
good
things
that
I
think
have
attracted
people
and
have
caused
you
know
cloud.
F
You
know,
testing
clouds
like
headspin,
where
I
work
or
sauce
labs
where
appian
was
initially
developed.
When
I
was
working
there
or
you
know
now,
amazon
or
lots
of
other
people
build
appium
into
their
products
and
services,
so
that
all
has
gone
pretty
well.
F
So
the
kind
of
last
phase
of
this
argument,
I
think,
is
that
platforms
you
know
should
actually
take
on
the
responsibility,
not
just
of
helping
us
figure
out
what
the
standard
should
be
going
through
a
standards
process,
but
also
then
creating
their
own
implementations,
of
whatever
the
ultimate
standard
is,
which
again,
I
hope
to
be
based
on
the
work
that
appium
has
already
been
doing.
F
I
think
this
is
also
pretty
obvious,
but
you
know
if
you
are,
if
you
want
a
ui
automation,
tool
to
work
with
ios
applications
and
mac
os
applications
and
ipad
os
applications,
the
team
that's
going
to
do
the
best
job
at
that
is
going
to
be
the
team
that
develops
those
those
platforms
going
to
be
people
at
apple
who
have
access
to
internal
code
and
knowledge
about
how
the
systems
work
and
things
like
that-
and
you
know
likewise
with
with
google
and
and
their
platforms
and
etc.
F
F
So
it's
overall
kind
of
less
than
optimal
experience
for
our
users,
because
we're
sort
of
a
an
intermediate
entity
between
them
and
the
technologies
that
are
ultimately
at
play
when
they
run
into
bugs
they
report
them
to
us,
even
though
they're
really
bugs
with
you
know,
ios
or
android
or
whatever
it
is,
and
we
we
have
nothing
to,
we
can't
fix
them.
We
have
to
tell
them
to
go.
F
You
know,
send
a
radar
under
the
void
or
whatever
and
hope
that
things
get
fixed
the
next
time
around
anyway,
for
all
the
same
reasons
that
it
was
important
for
browser
vendors
to
create
their
own
webdriver
implementations,
I
think
it
does.
The
argument
is
the
same
that
app
platform.
Vendors,
more
generally,
should
create
their
own.
F
You
know
appium
implementations,
it's
just
going
to
be
better
for
everybody,
and
that
means
convincing
platform
vendors
to
do
work,
which
you
know
may
be
a
hard
sell.
So
that's
part
of
you
know
the
argument
that
I
want
help
making.
F
F
So
that's
kind
of
the
the
argument,
and
so
for
this
group,
what
I
was
hoping
to
kind
of
get
is
basically
feedback.
Do
you
think
that
this
is
something
that
you
know
we
could
go
to
to
apple
and
google
and
microsoft
and
other
vendors
and
make
this
argument
is
now
a
good
time
for
that?
F
F
F
I
don't
really
know
what
make
you
know
how
to
make
those
kinds
of
decisions-
and
I
imagine
this
group
does
also
what's
the
right
strategy
for
moving
a
proposal
like
this
forward.
I
don't
have
you
know,
relationships
with
folks
at
apple
and
google
that
decide
these
sorts
of
things.
Although
I've
tried
over
the
years,
but
that's
just
you
know
not
how
the
relationship
between
the
open
source
project
and
these
vendors
has
evolved.
So
I'm
interested
in
thoughts
and
feedback
on
on
that
this
group
has
about
that.
F
So
that's
everything
thanks
for
you
know
giving
me
some
time
and
I'm
curious
to
hear
any
thoughts,
or
you
know.
D
A
I
have
opinions,
I
always
have
opinions.
You
all
know
that,
so
let
me
not
share
them
first
and
see
if,
like
christian
who
like
came,
I
mean
automatically
as
soon
as
you
started.
Talking
about
webdriver,
it's
like
a
beacon
went
off
in
his
brain
and
he
was
like.
Oh
here.
I
am.
E
I
think-
and
I
believe
this
is
still
the
mission
of
appium-
is
to
be
eventually
being
the
driver
of
everything,
and
you
have
been
talking
particularly
about
mobile
platforms,
but
you
know
we
have
the
web
drivers,
one
automation
standard
that
is
implemented
to
wvca
right
now.
There
will
be
probably
a
superset
for
the
mobile
platform,
but
when
we
think
about
iot
and
other
platforms,
how
do
we
make
the
cuts
there
like?
How
do
we
define
the
scopes
there
and
kind
of
like
yeah?
What,
at
what
end?
Do
we
say?
E
F
Yep,
no,
it's
a
good
question
and
I
I
have
used
mobile
as
kind
of
the
examples,
because
that's
the
most
popular
use
of
appium
right
now,
but
you're
right
that
kind
of
appium's
vision
and
how
it's
been
developing
has
been
to
yeah
acknowledge
that
that
there
are
a
lot
of
things
that
have
user
inner
interfaces
and
user
interactions
that
are
not
mobile
devices.
There's
there's
iot,
there's
tv
there's
car
stuff
and
all
these
things
want
automation
right.
F
So
in
terms
of
how
a
standard
would
look,
I
think
the
first
question
would
be
to
to
sit
down
and
look
at
the
existing
platforms
and
ask
what
does
a
sort
of
universal
ui
automation
set
of
capabilities
interactions?
Look
like!
Can
we
come
up
with
something?
F
So
maybe
that
forms
like
a
core
and
it
might
be
very
similar
to
it-
might
just
be
the
webdriver
standard.
Maybe
that's
all
we
need
for
the
core.
I
kind
of
think
we
probably
need
a
few
more
things,
but
then,
if
there's
a
kind
of
well-defined
way
to
kind
of
push
it
in
different
directions
for
platforms,
which
are
a
little
more
unique,
like
maybe
there's
a
a
tv
working
group
that
is,
is
part
of
the
same
overall
standards
committee.
F
What
have
you,
but
you
know,
figures
out
what
what
is
unique
about
ui
automation
for
tv
platforms,
like
maybe
the
inclusion
of
a
of
a
remote,
for
example,
that
doesn't
it's
not
there
in
like
an
auto
automation,
platform
or
a
mobile
automation
platform,
but
I
think
all
of
the
the
more
we
can
define
all
of
these
things,
the
better
so
again
like
I'm,
not
a
real
standards
veteran.
So
I
don't
know
whether
it's
possible
to
kind
of
spike
out
of
a
main
standard
and
have
like
little
add-ons
that
people
also
agree
with.
G
Yeah,
I
I
you
know
this
is
not
a
space,
so
apologies
if
this
is
a
silly
question,
but
how
much
overlap
is
there
between
kind
of
the
groups
that
are
interested
in
this
and
the
groups
that
are
interested
in
standards
work
around
ci
cd?
You
know
it
seems
like
running
a
lot
of
tests.
G
F
Yeah,
that's
a
good
question.
It
may
be
my
my
initial
feeling
is
that
they're
kind
of
orthogonal
in
that
you
know
I'm
talking
right
now
about
ui
automation,
which
is
almost
you
know.
99
of
the
time,
is
used
for
testing.
So
there's
like
a
direct
link
there,
but
the
actual
technologies
are
sort
of
agnostic
about
what
you're
trying
to
do
with
them.
So
somebody
could
use
ui
automation
for
testing,
but
they
could
also
use
it
to.
F
You
know:
increase
their
score
in
a
game
like
a
like
an
idle
game,
or
something
like
that,
so
they
could
use
it
for
a
completely
different
end
than
testing
and
so
ui
automation
as
a
standard.
I'm
I'm
wondering
if
it
would
be
related
to
testing
as
a
standard,
I'm
not
sure
if
it's
related
or
not,
but
certainly
because
in
practice,
there's
a
lot
of
overlap.
It
does
I'm
sure
it
makes
sense
to
talk
to
those
folks
and
see.
G
They
they
sometimes
do
have
you
know,
luck,
the
the
people
in
the
ci
cd
space
on
pushing
people
to
you
know
like
if
your
stuff
doesn't
integrate
with
build
tools
and
and
so
on,
then
you
know
it's
you
lose
developer
share,
and
so
they
may
be
able
to.
To
kind
of,
you
know,
hurt
people
in
the
right
direction.
A
One
of
the
questions
that
you
asked
is
like
around
timing
like
is
this
the
right
kind
of
time
to
to
try
and
make
a
push
for
such
a
conversation,
and
I
kind
of
wanted
to
weigh
in
on
that
and
say
that,
in
my
opinion,
yes,
that
this
does
feel
very
timely
and
we've
seen
over
the
last
couple
years
a
lot
of
maturity
in
just
testing
standards
generally
like
with
wpt
with
you
know,
some
other
other
efforts
and
there's
getting
to
be
a
lot
more
say,
rigor
and
systems
kind
of
built
around
the
relationship
between
the
developer
community
and
the
browser
engineering
community
for
for
testing.
A
E
Yeah,
I
I
totally
second
that,
because
of
the
reason,
because
of
the
fact
that
at
the
browser,
testing
and
tools
working
group,
they
currently
spec
out
the
new
web
driver
by
die
specification,
which
is
almost
a
complete
revamp
of
the
existing
protocol
that
we
had
so
far,
and
if
we
you
know,
if
we
have
now
conversations
about
what
could
be
the
basic,
the
most
basic
standard
that
other
web
driver
in
the
browser,
space
or
appium
in
the
iot
mobile
space
could
agree
on
and
can
build
can
be
built
on
top
on.
E
F
A
And
then,
in
terms
of
like
the
the
forum,
you
know
and
and
kind
of
what
role
this
group
can
play.
Obviously
we're
really
excited-
and
maybe
I'm
I
say
we,
the
royal-
we
we
are
really
excited
to
see
efforts
to
influence
web
standards
being
driven
by
our
projects.
Like
that's
a
big
part
of
like
the
goal
of
this
particular
working
group,
is
to
help
facilitate
that
and
make
that
a
reality,
because
I
think
the
projects
here
have
a
long
history
of
of
doing
that.
A
You
know
specifications
here,
but
I
think
one
thing
that
we
could
do
is
support
a
community
specification
development
initiative
because
there's
there
are
now
a
lot
of
tools
available
to
us
through
forums
like
the
joint
development
foundation
and
other
places,
to
help
bring
like
the
developer.
A
You
know
community
around
a
a
a
standard
or
a
specification
project
which
has
the
same
level
of
like
royalty-free
commitments
that
you
might
find
in
a
by
spinning
up,
say
a
community
group
at
the
w3c
or
an
interest
group,
or
something
like
that.
But
then
you
can
take
your
time
deciding
and
finding
and
shopping
it
to
sort
of
like
the
best
place
for
the
de
joure
process
to
take
hold.
A
If
that's
something
that
wanted
to
to
occur
and-
and
I
was
thinking
that
that
could
be
a
great
way
to
get
started-
I
don't
know
how
the
folks
here
may
feel
about
that,
but
my
that
that's
that
would
be
a
path
I
would
be
excited
about.
A
Supporting
or,
conversely
also
you
know,
if
you
feel
like
w3c,
if
we
feel
like
w3c
is
ultimately,
for
example,
the
right
forum
for
a
formal
standard
here,
then
we
could
support
the
creation
of
a
community
group
at
the
w3c,
where
we
are
we're
members
and
all
that
kind
of
thing.
I
don't
know
what
thoughts
there
that
the
group
might
have
for
jonathan
strong
opinions.
Brian
cardell
sometimes
has
strong
opinions
about
this
stuff.
F
Yeah,
I
don't,
I
don't
know
what
it
looks
like
to
do,
the
whatever
you
were
talking
about
the
community.
A
Process
yeah
there's
some
like
boilerplate
stuff.
It's
basically
just
you
know.
I
mean
the
goal
of
that
is
to
provide
you
a
lightweight
way
of
doing
a
governance
process
around
spec
advancements
and
then
also
a
provides
a
community.
F
F
Got
it
yeah
yeah,
I
mean,
I
guess
my
my
initial
feeling
is,
and
maybe
this
is
a
not
a,
not
an
awesome
thing
to
say
to
this
group.
I
kind
of
care
less
about
the
forum
and
the
process
and
more
about
is
everyone
at
the
table?
Who
needs
to
be
there
because
otherwise,
it
kind
of
is
a
moot
point
like.
If,
if
the
vendors
aren't
on
board,
then
it
kind
of
doesn't
matter
that
there
exists
a
standard,
if
not
everyone's
adopting
it.
So
I'm
I'm
almost
interested
in
wondering.
F
If
is
the
order
of
operations
you
know,
get
get
buy-in
and
then
see
what
forum
will
be
most
agreeable
to
the
you
know
the
set
of
people
who
are
to
need
to
implement
the
standard.
A
We
have
some
folks
on
our
board
and
in
our
community,
who
are,
I
think,
connected
with
the
the
right
teams
or
adjacent
to
the
right
teams
that
some
of
the
vendors
that
you
mentioned,
who
are
going
to
kind
of
need
to
be
bought
into
this
in
some
way.
F
A
One
one
thing
we
can
do
is
just
help
and
should
do
is
just
start
conversations
with
them.
It
is
always
helpful,
though,
if
you
can
kind
of
point
them
to
the
shape
of
a
plan
like
we
want.
D
A
Start
working
on
this,
it's
going
to
look
like
you
know
it's
going
to
take
the
informal
shape
of
you
know
this
other
of
why
you
know,
and
that
that
at
least
gives
them
some
way
that
they
can
start
to
imagine
how
their
work
or
how
their
team
might
be
able
to
participate
in
it
and
that's
helpful.
A
A
A
So,
and
I
wonder
if
like
we
can
as
the
next
step
to
help
out
here
for
appian.
G
Oh,
I
just
to
the
first
question:
you
know
what
does
it
it?
What
moves
the
needle
for
the
big
vendors?
I
I
wonder
if
maybe
you
mentioned
this,
but
I
I
you
you
talked
about
you
know
one
of
the
things
they're
giving
up
is
locked
in
and
what
are
you
you
know
like
it's
better
to
have
a
replacement
in
hand
for
something
that
you're
taking
away.
F
Right,
yeah-
and
I
think
to
my
thought
on
it
right
now
and
tell
me
if
this
is:
if
we
need
something
stronger,
my
thought
is:
appium
has
five
to
ten
times
more
users
than
their
tools.
Let's,
let's
take
that
on
assumption
right
now,
it
would
need
to
be
determined
in
some
more
accurate
way
but
say
that
you'll
get
all
of
these
users
that
you
don't
have
on
your
platform.
This
will
make
the
applications
on
your
platform
better.
Your
users
will
be
happier
you'll,
make
more
money
blah
blah
blah.
F
G
G
I
grew
our
user
community
from
3
000
to
6
000,
despite
the
fact
that
the
overall
user
community
in
that
segment
grew
from,
like
you
know,
10
000
to
50
000
as
long
as
nobody
else
in
the
organization
knows
that
that
you
know
has
the
context
yeah,
and
so
I
I
I
think,
yeah
that
may
be
you
know,
coming
out
with
those
numbers
and
and
introducing
those
numbers
into
the
discussion
within
the
organization
may
be
a
good
lever.
E
Maybe
also
as
an
addition
to
that,
the
the
argument
of
the
ecosystem
would
be
valuable
if
you
say
if
we
have
a
way
to
run
appium
as
a
standard
on
android
or
ios,
there's
a
whole
bunch
of
tools
that
come
with
it.
That
are,
you
know,
built
by
the
appium
community
or
built
by
people
that
have
been
using
appium.
E
F
Yep
totally
yeah,
I
mean,
I
suppose,
from
a
business
perspective.
It
also
opens
up
the
possibility
of
them.
Actually,
you
know
competing
with
a
lot
of
cloud
vendors
like
the
one
I
work
for
which
you
know
maybe
isn't
good
for
my
company
but
like
if,
let's
just
say,
apple
and
google
offered
appium
as
a
an
implementation,
they
could
easily
offer
rpm
related
services
like
they
do,
for
you
know,
with
firebase
or
with
the
the
xcode
cloud
stuff
for
xui
test
right.
F
So
there's
potentially
huge
market
opportunity
for
them
there
as
well,
which
might
be
of
interest.
A
So
in
our
last
few
minutes,
just
kind
of
again
thinking
about
how
to
help
appium
and
team
and-
and
also,
I
think,
probably
a
few
of
us
on
this
call
who
may
be
interested
and
too
to
move
forward,
maybe
we
can
start
with
identifying
the
some
of
the
right
teams
we
want
to
talk
to,
because
I'm
sure
here
amongst
us,
we
have
connections
to
some
of
those
people,
and
maybe
we
can.
A
We
have
a.
We
have
a
distro
list
for
standards,
so
we
can
do
that
there.
I
think
jonathan
I'll,
add
you
to
the
distro
list.
Okay,.
C
A
So
we
can
start
start
that
and
then
I'll
maybe
also
share
in
that
thread
links
to
the
the
community
spec
boilerplate
stuff.
If
you
want
to
check
that
out
as
an
option
for
you
to.
D
F
A
A
Cool
yeah
and
then
we
can,
we
can
kind
of
go,
go
from
there
and
see
how
we
can
continue
to
support.
F
Okay,
yeah
sounds
great.
No.
I
really
appreciate
the
opportunity
to
try
and
put
some
of
these
things
into
words
and
talk
with
some
folks.
A
A
We've
got
a
few
short
minutes
before
our
our
call
is
done
so
certainly
not
long
enough
to
have
a
meaty
discussion
about
any
of
this,
but
I
just
am
too
excited
to
not
share
it
with
you
all
today,
after
a
long
wait,
we've
got
a
couple
of
different
designs
back
from
the
lf
creative
services
team
for
our
spec
education
site,
which
we
have
been
calling
wist
for
wisdom
in
standards
and
technology,
kind
of
playing
off
of
that
idea
of
like
growing
and
and
helping
people
like
learn
and
grow
and
expand.
A
So
wisteria
was
sort
of
like
this.
You
know
plant,
you
know,
kind
of
speaking
to
the
growth
and
also
speaking
to
sort
of
wisdom,
and
so
anyway,
I'll
share
these
with
you
really
quickly
also
share
them
in
slack
and
stuff.
So
you
can
look
at
them
more
deeply
later,
but
several
different
cool
concepts
here,
some
that
include
the
whole
site
kind
of
name-
spelled
out
different
treatments,
sort
of
with
background
texture,
different
types
of
of
like
font
styles
ranging
from
stuff.
A
That
looks
a
little
bit
more
like
like
formal,
I
suppose,
and
and
others
that
look
a
little
bit
less,
so
maybe
a
little
bit
more
wustful.
I
suppose
there
you
go
hey
some
of
this
like
like
this
one
down
here
on
the
bottom
here
with
1b
worth
of
fonts
kind
of
like
this
to
me
reminded
me
a
lot
of
kind
of
what
the
wpt
team
did
for
for
theirs,
which
I
like
in
a
way,
but
you
know
lots
of
different
concepts.
A
What
we
need
to
do
as
the
next
step
with
this
is
spend
some
time
like
like
thinking
about
it.
What
are
you
responding?
Well
to?
What
do
you
like?
What
do
you
not
like,
and
we
can
get
back
to
the
creative
services
team?
Maybe
with
some
concrete
feedback
about
styling?
You
know
which
pieces
are
kind
of
hitting
home
for
us
and
which
pieces
aren't,
but
once
we
kind
of
get
this
short
up,
then
we
can
convert
our
very
boring.
A
Static
site
into
something
that's
pretty.
B
I
do
my
first,
I
I
don't
know
we
don't
really
have
time,
but
my
first
thinking
is
like
the
first
ones
with
the
stuff
over
it.
It
looks
if
you're
not
sure
what
wisteria
and
stuff
is
it
just
sort
of
looks
messy,
but
these
bottom
ones
and
these
ones
where
that's
above
it
more,
I
think,
feel
better
to
me.
But
anyway,.
A
Yeah,
that's
a
good
point.
This
kind
of
looked
like
rain
or.
G
A
Pretty
cool
exactly
so
yeah,
so
that's
the
update
here
and
I
guess
with
that-
we're
pretty
much
out
of
time.
Any
final
parting
thoughts
today.
F
A
F
A
Share,
let's
see,
go
off
of
youtube.
How
do
we
end
youtube.