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From YouTube: Lessons Learned on the DevRel Road Tamao Nakahara (Weaveworks) OpenShift Commons Gathering
Description
Lessons Learned on the DevRel Road
Tamao Nakahara (Weaveworks)
OpenShift Commons Gathering on Community Development
June 15, 2020
A
Everybody
thanks
for
joining.
My
name
is
Tom.
O
Nakahara
I
run
developer
experience
team
at
a
company
called
weave
works.
I'm,
really
appreciative
that
Diane
invited
me
to
speak
with
all
these
fantastic
speakers,
so
hopefully,
I
have
something
to
contribute.
Maybe
you've
seen
my
title,
which
is
quite
obviously
kind
of
a
bookmark
title,
because
we
were
kind
of
in
conversation.
So
hopefully,
yes,
I
have
some
lessons
that
I've
experienced.
That
would
be
helpful
for
thinking
about
dev
rel
for
open
source,
so
I
was
talking
with
Diane
and
asked
well.
What
would
the
audience
want
like?
A
What?
What
are
you?
What
are
you
thinking?
You
know
how
can
I
be
most
helpful
and
some
of
the
things
that
she
shared
was.
Obviously
people
here
have
quite
a
bit
of
experience
with
open
source
communities,
building
them,
educating
them
driving,
adoption
and
participation,
but
that
thinking
about
it
from
a
Deverell
perspective
or
a
dev
advocacy
perspective
might
sometimes
fall
by
the
wayside
or
maybe
be
a
blind
spot.
So
hopefully
I
have
something
to
offer
here
that
I
guess
in
my
world
is
definitely
a
core
part
of
doing
all
these
things.
A
So
some
I
wouldn't
I
think
this
kind
of
a
grandiose
term.
It's
not
necessarily
I,
have
a
grand
models
and
patterns,
but
I,
hopefully,
will
share
some
of
the
ways
that
you
might
be
being
pulled
into
these
areas.
So
one
thing
I
shared
also
was
that
may
be
part
of
the
blind
spot.
Is
that
there's
a
corporate
angle
or
a
business
driven
angle
that
for
very
good
reason?
A
Some
people
might
feel
concerned
about
and
feels
very
antithetical
to
the
community,
but
you
do
often
need
to
support
your
community,
so
you
might
be
supporting
a
community
completely
on
your
free
time,
because
you're
involved
you're
a
member
and
you
care
a
lot
of
times.
You
still
need
to
find
financial
support
or
certain
types
of
support,
and
so
you
might
be
able
to
find
a
for
lack
of
a
better
term.
I
was
just
thinking
like
a
one-for-one
or
like
there's
a
clear
kind
of
exchange.
A
Maybe
you
need
some
financial
support
for
the
technologies
or
series
of
events
or
meetings,
so
there's
a
clear
exchange
of
brand
awareness
and
exchange
for
support,
but
that
kind
of
keeps
that
that
angle,
very
delineating
and
safe
and
and
for
a
lot
of
us
supporting
Afeni
community,
maybe
specifically
part
of
our
day.
Jobs
are
our
job
titles,
our
job
descriptions
or
certain
parts
of
our
job
requirements
are
about
supporting
this
community.
So
how
do
you
advocate
for
both
sides
or
various
sides?
So
I'll
be
speaking
mostly
to
this
third
category?
A
From
my
own
personal
experience
of
having
roles
where
it
is
explicitly
date,
my
day,
job
and
I'm,
working
with
teams
where
it
is
explicitly
their
job
or
others
who
are
kind
of
in
the
periphery
or
a
part
of
like
the
shared
community?
So
hopefully
that
will
be
helpful
there.
So
as
part
of
supporting
your
community
as
your
day
job,
you
might
have
been
hired
for
a
particular
role,
because
you've
already
created
a
reputation
for
an
existing
community
that
this
company
is
looking
to
build
its
own
reputation.
A
A
For
that
reason,
that's
like
an
example
of
something
that
we
did
when
I
ran
developer
relations
at
New
Relic
or
we
had
a
team
around
Cloud
Foundry
at
VMware
pivotal,
so
we
had
particular
experts
that
were
already
established
in
different
communities
or
you
may
be
in
a
new
group
and
you've
identified
or
the
company's
begley
or
clearly
identified.
Oh,
we
need
to
sort
of
build
thought
leadership
and
an
existing
community,
and
you
yourself
are
interested
in
growing
in
learning
in
that
area
as
well.
A
So
you
might
have
a
good
alignment
there,
so
you're
both
building
your
reputation
and
helping
your
company
with
that
or
maybe
you've
created
a
new
open-source
community
and
the
company's
invested
in
growing
it.
And
so
that's
part
of
yours.
That
was
my
experience
with
Cloud
Foundry
owes
in
for
intensive
purposes
the
first
community
manager
of
this
brand
new
thing.
Nobody
had
heard
of
us
and
be
like
who
are
you?
Why
do
we
care
so
there's
different
levels
of
that?
A
That's
there
or
maybe
you
have
your
own
communities
that
you've
been
building
up,
but
you're
so
focused
on
measurements
and
like
forcing
people
to
sign
up
for
things,
and
you
know
making
requirements
that
yes,
metrics
are
important,
but
you
know
being
able
to
have
a
balance
between
that.
That's
another
area
that
you
want
to
advocate
for
also
attitudes
of
like
it's
all
about
taking
and
not
giving
back.
A
It's
like
a
one-way
thing
like
oh,
it's
we're
missing
this
opportunity
that
we're
not
going
in
there
and
then
you
know
some
of
the
worst
case
scenarios,
or
maybe
the
community
started
within
the
company
and
they're
like
we
don't
understand
the
benefit.
This
is
just
taking
time,
resources
and
money.
We
need
to
just
close
source
it
and
make
money
off
of
it
and
so
sure
there
are
many
other
concerns,
but
these
are
definitely
ones
that
mean
I'll.
Be
talking
about
that.
A
A
So
when
you
are
advocating
your
company
and
I
kind
of
highlight,
you
know,
I
won't
dive
into
the
terminology.
Evangelism
advocacy,
definitely
developer
relations
at
marketing
and
all
that
really
nice
focus
I
think
a
core
part
of
that,
even
across
all
those
terms,
I
run
a
team
now
developer.
Experience
right
is
that
advocacy
is
a
key
part
of
that.
Have
any
empathy
having
understanding
and
being
able
to
manage
these
different
relationships?
A
Obviously,
there
are
many
many
reasons
that
you
would
be
advocating
for
community,
but
I'd
share
some
kind
of
generic
ones
that
we
can
group
on.
You
want
to
keep
it
open
source,
you
want
it
to
be
innovative
and
collaborative,
and
you
wanted
to
have
longevity
and
not
be
interrupted
or
cut
short
and
I'll.
Add
a
sort
of
a
footnote
on
longevity
here.
Just
underlying
assumption
of
the
things
I'll
be
talking
about.
A
Moving
for
my
underlying
assumption
around
longevity
is
that
you
want
for
wherever
way
you
can
natural
or
organic
longevity
for
the
community
and
other
relationships,
but
I,
think
holding
on
to
longevity
just
for
the
sake
of
longevity
will
lead
to
the
heartbreak.
So
you
know
where
the
community
technologies
might
change.
New
things
might
come
up
and
you
know
sometimes
a
community
might
shrink,
but
it's
still
really
powerful,
so
I've
definitely
been
through
communities
when
people
sort
of
mourned,
like
oh,
it's
not
as
big
as
it
used
to
be.
A
This
is
that
and
so
I
kind
of
take
from.
If
you
look
at
relationships
and
partnerships
a
lot
of
times,
the
model
is
that
you're,
always
assessing
between
partners
like
what's
the
what's
the
shared
benefit
that
you're
getting
out
of
it
and
that's
part
of
the
life
cycle.
There's
a
natural
winding
down
if
things
change
or
technologies
change,
where
you
might
put
a
pause
or
an
end
to
that
relationship,
if
it's
no
longer
equally
beneficial,
and
so
that
way,
you're
not
really
having
that
heartbreak
and
then
similarly
I
feel
that
way
about.
A
That
is
really
a
way
that,
instead
of
thinking
it's
antithetical,
it
will
actually
help
to
help
people
understand
why
they
want
the
community
to
be
protected
and
kept
the
way
that
it
is,
and
so
in
some
ways
right.
It's
not
just
a
two
directional
relationship,
but
a
multi-directional
relationship,
so
you'll
be
managing
expectations
across
business
owners
and
I'll.
Be
sharing
in
some
of
the
examples.
A
I
have
to
find
ways
that,
if
you
have
metrics
for
success
that
seem
antithetical
that
you're
measured
on
your
success
in
different
ways
and
they
don't
unint
and
if
they
don't
understand
the
way,
you're
being
measured,
then
of
course
you're,
probably
the
bad
way.
They're
gonna
be
like
oh
you're,
you're
you're,
the
way
that
you're
just
spending
company
resources
and
time
and
not
being
helpful,
then
being
able
to
say
well,
no,
let's
find
the
metrics
that
we
have
together,
and
this
is
going
to
help.
You
understand
why
the
community
should
be.
A
You
know,
protected
and
kept
it.
The
way
they
are
will
also
help
to
manage
the
perception
of
the
community,
because
I
kept
going
back
to
oh,
you
guys
just
expend
time
resources
and
money
and
you're
not
really
bringing
any
value
we
need
just
be
going
in
there
and
taking
advantage
of
in
a
way
that
we
understand,
which
will
be
very
detrimental
to
communities
so
being
able
to
manage.
All
these
are
very
helpful
to
protect
your
community
also
share
that
you
may
be
in
a
company
that
you
feel
like
well.
I.
A
Don't
have
to
spend
that
much
time
on
this
because
we're
a
company
that's
founded
on
open
source.
We
totally
understand
it,
and
maybe
you
will
spend
less
time
on
it,
but
you
know
leadership
can
change.
Companies
can
get
acquired
directions
may
pivot
that
change
priorities
so
with
that
I
think
it's
still
important
to
think
about.
You
know
these
metrics
and
how
you
fit
in
so
that,
if
you
care
about
the
open-source
community
itself
to
be
protected,
these
are
things
that
are
still
important
to
at
least
be
articulated.
A
Okay,
so
moving
forward,
I'm
gonna
be
talking
about
my
personal
experience,
so
it's
definitely
not
comprehensive
or
exhausted
anyway,
but
hopefully
it's
a
part,
a
small
piece
of
the
puzzle
that
will
contribute
to
this
larger
than
and
the
conversations
that
are
happening
so
I'm
going
to
share
some
of
the
ways,
not
all
that
you
can
help
keep
your
communities
healthy
and
engaged
and
understood
within
these
business
metrics.
So
I
thought
I'd
think
about
the
categories
based
on
certain
types
of
comments
that
maybe
you've
heard
I
probably
have
heard.
A
That
can
be
sometimes
somewhat
alarming,
so,
like
let's
say,
you're
participating
in
existing
community
right,
we're
going
well.
Why
aren't
we
selling
to
this
community,
like
you
know
Java
communities
and
X
fold
or
currently
we're
in
the
kubernetes
community
and
we've
works
where
I
think
last
time,
I
checked,
there's
90,000
people
in
the
slack
Channel
like.
Why
aren't
we
downloading
that
list
and
emailing
all
those
people?
Well
one?
You
can't
do
that.
A
That's
not
legal
and
to
like
okay
like
what,
if
we
order
like
bombard
that
slack
list
with
all
kinds
of
marketing
and
stuff
and
trying
to
pull
into
webinars
or
what-have-you
immediately,
probably
I
would
be
banned,
the
company's
reputation
would
be
at
stake
and
it
will
not
be
the
way
to
respect
the
culture
of
the
community.
So
there
are
many
ways
to
slice
and
dice
this,
but
one
way
you
could
say
like
well,
let's
have
a
shared
metric
that
we
understand.
A
Yes,
this
is
a
pipeline,
but
the
way
that
we
engage
with
that
pipeline
is
through
building
relationship.
You
know
like
first
through
getting
back
and
and
helping
people
and
being
understood
as
being
helpful
building
a
reputation
for
the
knowledge
that
we
have
and
if
they
end
up
coming
to
an
open-source
project
that
we've
used,
because
it's
very
much
in
alignment
with
the
larger
community
they'll
build
reliance
on
our
open
source
technologies,
depending
on
what
your
business
model
is.
A
If
you
have
an
upsell
or
you
still
support
or
a
free,
open
source
and
paid,
you
know
you
have
a
different
ways
of
continuing
to
build
that
relationship
and
then
from
there.
When
you
have
those
relationships,
you
can
just
say
explicitly:
hey.
Can
you
do
me
a
favor?
You
know
a
group
of
people
like
hey
we'd,
love
to
we
have
a
new.
A
So
it's
a
smoother
transition
and
the
transition
built
on
trust
versus
you
know,
hey
you
guys
are
spending
all
this
time
in
the
community,
we're
not
getting
anything
out
of
it
and
also
I'm
a
little
short
on
time
here
so
pretty
quickly.
You
may
have
your
own
community,
it's
a
common
thing
that
people
want
to
recruit
from
the
community.
Well
make
sure
that
you
understand
that
there's
a
shared
goal
of
growing
that
that
community
for
itself.
A
It
was
very
established
in
terms
of
having
all
these
different
orgs
and
there
was
one
educational
that
you
know
they
were
measured
on
selling
paid
training.
So
here
we
were
as
dev
advocates
like.
We
want
to
be
really
helpful.
We
want
to
give
away
free
workshops,
give
away
a
lot
of
great
resources
and
they
said
hey
that
makes
us
really
nervous
because
you're,
basically
giving
away
for
what
we
need
to
make
money
on
so
I
could
have
just
said
you
guys
don't
get
it
like.
A
You
know
we're
trying
to
help
the
community
here,
but
instead
I
said.
Oh,
this
is
kind
of
an
interesting
challenge.
You
know
I
understand
what
the
metrics
are,
but
what,
if
we
were
both
measuring
I'm
like
what
would
happen
if
we
doubled
the
size
of
the
spring
community?
What
if
we
10x
it?
What
would
that
mean
for
your
pipeline
of
people
wanting
certification
and
pay
training?
A
And
you
know,
of
course
their
eyes
were
dazzled
and
they
said
well,
yes,
that
would
be
lovely
but
like
how
do
we
make
that
actually
happen,
and
so
we
obviously
respected
each
other
short
and
long
term
goals,
and
so
we
were
still
able
to
offer
a
lot
of
stuff
for
the
community,
but
we
had
an
explicit
you
know
tie-in,
so
to
speak,
we're
like
hey,
you
know,
if
you,
if
you
want
to
get
the
full
version
or
you
need
you
need
to
share
code,
it
has
to
be
under
NDA.
What
have
you
then?
A
This
is
not
the
place
for
this.
This
is
like
a
two
hour
workshop,
but
here's
more
that
can
be
done
and
you
can
go
on
to
that,
and
so
that
way
we
actually
became.
We
were
in
partnership
with
the
training
team,
where
their
trainers
would
actually
help
with
these
free
workshops
that
we
offered,
and
it
was
a
win-win
because
they're
like
well
now
they
already
have
a
relationship
with
me.
They
know
that
you
know
I'm
a
trusted
source
of
training
and
if
they
want
more
than
they'll
wanted
with
me.
A
Of
course,
metrics
based
on
giving
this
is
something
I
hear
quite
a
bit.
Oh,
we
can
get
free,
labor
free
support,
documentation.
You
know
we
should
be
just
tapping
this
community
for
free
stuff
and
free
Q&A,
pre
testing,
right
and
so,
first
of
all,
again
labor
laws
are
in
place
and
that's
not
really
something
that
you
can
do
or
is
healthy
for
the
community,
and
so
there
are
many
different
ways
to
slice
and
dice
this
again,
but
I
thought
I'd
highlight
in
some
ways
like
by
keeping
the
community
safe
and
and
protected.
A
It's
it's
not
going
to
be
enough
right,
and
this
is
one
of
my
favorites
I-
do
think.
If
you
have
like
an
open-source
version
or
paid
version,
you
know
having
a
PM
who
totally
gets
it
and
isn't
just
saying
like.
Oh
you
know,
these
are
in
competition.
You,
if
you
have
a
PMO,
understands
Wow
I
literally,
have
this
active
engaged
community.
You
know
not
just
giving
feedback
and
submitting
issues
or
making
requests,
but
also
like
being
in
communication
like
you,
you
can
tap
them
and
say.
Tell
us
your
use
case.
What
tools
are
you
using?
A
You
know
what
are
those
problems
you're
trying
to
solve
that
can
help.
You
understand
the
trends
of
where
you
need
to
take
your
product,
what
people
are
willing
to
pay
for
and
then,
if
they're,
actually
building
upon
your
open
source
project,
then
you
know
what
gaps
are
trying
to
fill
and
then
you
can
kind
of
figure
out
like
which
are
the
ones
that
you
know
are
kind
of
too
custom
that
we
can't
really
address
them,
which
are
the
ones
that
we're
seeing
a
trend
that
like
oh.
A
This
is
a
gap
that
people
need
to
fill
and
they'll
be
willing
to
pay
for
the
paid
version
for
that
right.
So
this
called
road
ahead.
So
Diane
gave
me
a
little
bit
of
outline.
So
I'm
not
sure
if
this
is
quite
a
road
ahead,
but
I
share,
maybe
a
different
model
that
we
put
together
so
I
work
at
wing
works.
Maybe
you
guys
are
heard
of
get
ups,
which
are
CEO
kind
of
put
out
there
in
2017
and
said,
like
I,
noticed
a
trend
that
people
sort
of
doing
operations
by
pull
request.
A
You
know
you're
using
versioning
you're
having
a
single
source
of
truth,
and
there
seems
to
be
this
thing.
I'll
give
it
the
name,
get
ops
and
it
kind
of
took
off,
and
we
just
did
a
get
up
stays
online
a
couple
of
weeks
ago
and
a
lot
of
people
talked
about
like
this
is
the
year
of
get
ops
and
so
I
kind
of
wanted
to
think
about,
like
if
I
put
together
this
event
like
what
would
be
the
way
that
it
would
be
meaningful
as
opposed
to
okay,
we
did
an
event.
A
We
got
a
bunch
of
speakers
and
so
I
really
thought.
Well,
we've
been
trying
to
kind
of
understand
if
there's
such
a
thing
as
a
good
ops
community.
So
we've
used
this
to
launch
that
community.
So,
first
of
all
we
created
a
site
on
github.
We
wanted
it
to
be
for
anybody
to
come
and
join.
You
know.
Currently
we
have
a
community
manager,
but
we
should
have
community
managers
from
different
companies
and
it
should
be
a
place
of
at
least
resources
and
collaboration.
So
it's
interesting.
A
A
So
a
lot
of
the
talks
around
the
conference
were
around
addressing
those
from
different
angles,
with
a
lot
of
great
speakers
sharing
their
stories
and
and
we've
been
in
the
process
of
kind
of
collating
and
inserting
the
great
quotes
and
perspectives
into
this
kit
that
we,
then
you
know,
feel
we've
donated
to
this
community
and
we
wanted
to
grow
and
people
would
submit
issues
and
and
add
their
own.
Like.
A
But
in
closing
just
again
you
know
some
of
these
are
some
of
the
top
things
that
we
would
be
thinking
about
when
we
want
to
think
about
a
healthy
community
that
is
advocate.
You
know
that
that
receives
advocacy
and
is
protected,
and
so
these
are
some
of
the
ways
in
which,
among
many
others,
you
can
think
about
how
understanding
the
business
value
being
able
to
articulate
it
and
to
constantly
test
it
and
to
see
if
you're,
right
or
wrong
and
and
what
works
and
using
terminology.
A
Sometimes
that
doesn't
scare
away
people
who
don't
really
understand
where
you're
coming
from
those
are
types
of
things
that
you
can
get.
Alignment
on.
That
will
help
people
to
understand
the
value
of
having
the
open-source
community
be
healthy
in
the
way
that
it
is
as
opposed
to
a
place
that
requires
poaching
or
interference.
A
B
Think
that
was
brilliant
and
I'm
so
glad
that
I
asked
you
to
give
this
talk
because
I
have
known
tomorrow,
I,
probably
I,
don't
know
six
seven
years,
we've
passed
each
other.
My
past
me
and
I
I
had
an
inkling.
You
had
a
lot
of
great
advice
and
a
lot
of
good
lessons
learned
and
one
of
the
things
that
I've
been
really
on
it
about
and
that
that
you
you
did
a
very
good
job
of
talking
about,
is
that
personally,
I
think
that
developer
relations
are
advocacy
or
experience
or
whatever
Vangelis
or
whatever.
B
B
Okay,
this
is
not
a
camera
friendly.
Let
me
just
put
it
that
way,
but
I'm
really
thrilled
to
have
you
all
here,
because
all
of
you
sort
of
represent
from
different
angles
keep
keep
people
there
you
go.
I
can
see
you
again
Gina
from
from
the
developer
relations
that
we
use
that
term
for
now
side
of
the
house
and
I.
You
know
I'd
really
like
you
to
maybe
weigh
in
a
little
bit
as
well.
The
other
thing
that
I
thought
was
brilliant
was
the
in
defense
of
community
and
open
sources.
B
Is
that
the
community
is
really
what
highlights
the
gaps
in
your
offering.
But
when
you
see,
people
coming
in
to
you
know
create
a
Japanese
version
of
the
documentation
or
there's
a
big
hole
in
your
DNS
server
or
whatever
it
is
when
they
want
to
fix
something
that
should
be
a
flag
or
engineering
or
product
management
or
sales
that
there
is
something
missing
and
your
offering
so
brilliant
presentation
tomorrow.
Thank
you
very
much
so
I'll
open
it
up
to
Ryan
and
Tony
and
Gina
that
see
if
they
have
some
comments
or
additional
commentary.
I
just.
D
Specifically
around
developers
using
kubernetes
and
I
know
get
ops
is
one
kind
of
way
to
help
reduce
the
complexity
and
simplify
things
but
I
think
in
the
dev
rel
space.
It's
been
really
interesting,
trying
to
help
give
people
advice
on
how
they
can
optimize
their
productivity,
while
the
complexity
of
the
tool
set
and
the
topics
is
like
going
up
at
such
a
rate
that
there's
this
huge
amount
of
time
spent
on
upkeep
and
refreshing
your
skills
and
our
e-learning
as
well.
So
it's
a
really
interesting
field
to
keep
an
and
great
topic
thanks,
hello,
yeah.
A
But
we
understood
I
think
one
of
the
strengths
of
you
know
this
tiny
little
company
that
made
some
right
decisions.
One
of
the
right
decisions
was
I.
Think
this
community's
thing
might
be
the
thing
that
we
need
to
pay
attention
to
and
and
at
least
investing
our
time
and
resources
to
a
decent
extent
that
we
can
in
this
space
will
pay
off
and
so
look
knowledge
whatever
that's
that's
kind
of
worked
out,
but
then
now
it's
sort
of
like
whatever
this
term
is
and
and
the
direction
we're
going.
It
really
does
reinforce
this
value.
A
That
kubernetes
brings
that
that
we're
just
part
of
this
journey
and
that,
hopefully,
we're
not
just
kind
of
waiting
these
little
flags
to
give
ourselves
attention
within
this
really
noisy
and
large
community,
but
that
hey
you
know,
we've
kind
of
hit
upon
this
thing
that
is,
is
justifying
kubernetes
itself.
It's
justifying
this,
this
technology
that
is
worth
investing
in
because,
like
you
said
it
is
quite
complicated,
there's
so
many
things
in
the
landscape.
The
TNCs
logo
board
is
now
just
overwhelming.
A
E
B
C
Think
listening
to
all
the
presentations
today,
they're
really
good
and
I
think
what's
there
are
so
many
things
that
I
thought
that
with
the
Deverell,
especially
what
you're
talking
about
the
whole
idea
of
recombinant
of
going
back
to
you
know
retrying
to
to
figure
out
the
communities
again
all
of
the
community
properties
they
talked
about.
They
applied
to
the
big
company
communities.
People
have
been
fighting
the
hard
fight
internally
for
a
while
and
I
think
even
now,
just
especially
talking
about
kubernetes.
C
Some
of
the
things
that
are
really
hard
are
the
things
the
operations
people
know
all
about.
They
just
don't
understand,
potentially
some
of
the
the
software
development
side
of
it.
So
there's
this
enormous
opportunity
for
mindshare
and
for
you
know,
making
sure
that
there's
some
way
for
these
communities
somebody
mentioned
before
you
know
being
able
to
be
permeable
and
to
be
able
to
go
along
the
borders
of
the
communities
and
work
together.
C
C
So
there's
people
that
have
amazing,
amazing
strengths
and
I
know
that
I
would
say
that
you
see
little
pockets
of
things
turn
to
pop
up
internally
at
the
communities
and
then
something
gets
decided
is
the
big
initiative
it
one
of
the
big
companies,
then
those
people
if
you're
brought
up
into
the
communities
or
they
find
their
way
into
the
open-source
community.
It's
very
permeable
penny.
What
do
you
think.
E
So
there's
kind
of
our
transformation
of
stuff
around
the
communities-
and
there
were
lots
of
interesting
good
points
among
any
presentation
and
one
thing
kind
of
arm
I
wanted
to
ask
about-
is
then
how
you
see
the
commercial
kind
of
communities
and
worse
was
the
partner
ecosystem,
and
what
I
mean
there
is
that
most
of
the
open
source
people
I
work.
Nowadays
they
are
actually
working
for
our
partner
companies.
They
can
be
a
system,
integrators
or
ifv's.
E
A
I
think
there's
so
many
different
models.
I
could
possibly
make
a
blanket
statement,
but
I'll
just
share
in
my
history.
I
was
at
VMware
in
the
early
days
and
this
thing
came
up
called
developer
relations
and
it
was
after
p.m.
where
it
acquired
SpringSource
and
I
said
wow.
This
is
this
whole
space
that
seems
pretty
interesting
and
then
that's
where
I
thought
well.
Weird,
VMware
I
heard
this
thing
called
user
groups
and
talked
to
the
VMware
user
group.
First
and
I
said.
A
Oh,
this
is
a
very
different
beast:
we're
using
we're
using
a
lot
of
same
terms,
but
these
are
very
much
dedicated
people
to
the
commercial
product
they
gauge
in
certain
ways.
They
have
certain
expectations
and
that's
a
great
thing
to,
but
it
seems
a
bit
troubling
that
we're
all
using
the
same
words
and
then
I
think
there
was
even
a
certain
point
where
at
a
high
level,
they're
like
oh
I,
hear
all
these
same
words.
This
should
all
be
in
one
org
and
he's
like
no
like
yeah.
A
Just
because
you
have
the
same
words
doesn't
mean
anything
about
the
cultures
right
and
I
never
happened,
but
that
was
interesting
to
observe
how
people's
thinking
happen
and
I
guess
that's
some
of
the
things
I
was
trying
to
address.
When
you
know
people
are
being
mean
or
evil.
They
just
understand
that
the
ways
that
they've
been
measured
for
success.
They
understand
certain
terminology,
certain
categories
and
it's
a
hard.
It's
hard
to
you
know
one
of
the
things
we
talked
about
it
get
up
stays
is
that
it
changes
hard
for
people.
A
So
I
was
laughing
like.
Why
are
we
really
the
partner
organist
ik
team
of
people
who,
just
in
a
weird
way,
I
hadn't
heard
of
devrel
at
that
time?
But
we
had
to
be
very
scrappy
in
the
way
that
we
worked
because
Oracle
wasn't
going
to
come
and
just
do
a
you
know
straight
partner
agreement.
This
is
not
so
we
discovered
these
Oracle
user
groups
again
right.
They
were
commercial
user
groups,
but
they
are
huge.
A
They
were
all
over
the
place
and
they're
very
active
and
when
we'd
go
there
we'd
say
are
any
of
you
guys
virtualizing
your
Oracle
apps,
and
you
know
such
databases
like
on
VMware
and
there'd,
be
like,
of
course,
yeah.
We
want
to
hear
talks
about
that,
and
so
that
was
a
way
that
then
you
know
it
was
very
kind
of
suited
to
way
I
worked
as
well,
so
it
was
just
kind
of
a
lucky
happenstance
that
here
we
were
working
with
all
these
different
communities
all
over
the
place.
A
You
were
very
welcome,
even
though
sort
of
the
mothership
was
not,
and
so
then
soon
when
I
found
out
about
this
thing
to
ever,
I
was
like,
oh,
so
it's
a
lot
of
the
ways
that
we're
operating,
even
though,
like
you're
talking
about
commercial
you're
talking
about
food
source,
you
have
very
different
cultures.
The
way
that
you
can
engage
and
find
like-minded
people,
people
who
are
excited
and
they
weren't
worried
about
the
politics.
A
That
was
some
of
the
ways
that
we
got
started
and
I
was
able
to
get
certain
types
of
them.
You
know
kind
of
models
working
and
in
fact
we
had
a
very
small
shop.
That
was
willing
to
say
we
will
be
the
experts
of
helping
people
virtualize
their
peoplesoft
or
virtualize,
even
their
Oracle
databases,
and
so
our
greatest
success
during
the
three
three
year
window
was
going
from
people
going
no
way
I'm
not
going
to
think
about
it.
At
the
end
of
the
three
years,
oh
yeah,
we've
virtualized
everything.
A
You
know
even
our
databases,
cuz,
there's
like
a
middle
park
where
they're
like
oh
yeah,
we're
totally
we're
all
about
VMware,
but
don't
touch
my
databases
right.
So
it
was
sort
of
like
this
journey
and
to
hear
these
stories
coming
back
was
I'm,
not
sure
if
I
answered
your
question.
But
you
know
these
different
ways
of
engaging
with
user
communities
that
were
commercial
and
so
I
felt
like
it's
a
case-by-case
basis,
the
kinds
of
cultures
that
they
brought
it
and
what
they
were
amenable
to.
Yeah.
E
Great
I
see
I
haven't
seen
exactly
the
same
yeah
when
I
joined.
There
was
like
the
most
valued
professional
community,
which
was
everything
about
dotnet
and
all
the
traditional
micro
stuff.
That
I
knew
nothing
about
I
even
learned
the
acronym
like
two
years
after
joining
a
company,
and
then
there
was
this
set
of
time
for
sending
like
the
open
source.
I
was
like
what
are
these
two
communities
and
how
we
make
them
all
together.
Yeah.
A
Yeah
I
mean
I,
often
joke
like
developer.
Relations
doesn't
really
need
to
exist
in
the
sense
that
you
know
if
you,
if
you
put
your
hat
on
and
you
respect
each
culture
and
how
they
want
to
be
communicated
to
and
how
they
want
to
engage
like
anybody
can
do
it.
But
frankly,
they're
like
oh
I,
don't
know
how
to
talk
to
those
people
here.
A
I'll
give
you
a
paycheck
if
you're
going
to
do
it
right,
but
I
mean
I
feel
like
I
could
be
doing
this
with
with
any
different
communities
just
go
and
you
respect
how
they
are
and
you
you
you
enjoy
how
they
are
and
you
you
you
work
within
that
culture,
so
it
doesn't
even
have
to
be
developer
relations
or
analyst
relations
or
business
relations.
Or
what
have
you
right?
I.
C
There's
for
sure
corporate
groups
and
user
groups,
that
are
one
thing,
but
that's
not
where
the
real
work
gets
done
and
that's
not
I,
don't
think
a
lot
of
times
where
the
real
community
is
and
you'll
find,
like
there'll,
be
subsets
of
community
that
run
to
the
developer
communities,
because,
from
an
operation
standpoint,
you've
got
people
that
are
building
the
servers
and
the
virtual
machines
everything
on
Prem
and
in
the
cloud
wherever
now.
That
needs
to
understand
what
the
developers
are
going
to
build
upon
it.
C
C
As
of
the
people
that
brought
kubernetes
to
dinner
my
right
and
and
made
it
workable
and
got
everything
pulled
together
into
one
United
message:
they're
under
they're,
coming
back
more
breathing
more
into
the
true
community,
which
is
not
necessarily
the
marketing
community,
even
the
partner
community
is
is
where
the
people
are
where
the
customers
are,
the
people
actually
having
to
support
it
in
real
life.
You've
got
if
it's
all
you
know.
If
it's
an
all
cloud
platform,
there
may
not
be
any
operations
person.
The
get
ops
is
really
important
there.
C
They
can
totally
learn
from
the
office
people
who
have
done
this
I'll.
Give
you
an
example:
I've
used,
yes,
which
is
was
hard
for
me
until
I
started,
remembering
oh,
my
god,
I
did
this
in
college
and
by
hand
on
AIX
I,
understand
what
I'm
doing
now
so
I
think
there's
such
a
wealth
of
that's
the
piece
of
community
we
missed,
sometimes
only
when
we
don't
remember
to
talk
about
the
ops
people,
the
real
old
timey,
ops,
people
like
me,
I.
B
Think
that
that's
a
really
interesting
point
about
a
couple
of
things
resonate
for
me,
too,
is
like
one
is:
is
different
cultures
within
different
parts
of
the
organization,
the
user
group
one
reared
its
head
recently,
when
Red
Hat
was
acquired
by
IBM
and
all
of
a
sudden
there
were
there's,
there's
a
lot
of
user
groups
out
there.
We
also
still
have
user
groups
inside
of
Red
Hat
and
we
have
ops
culture
and
we
have
Deaf
culture,
and
you
know
it's
yeah,
there's
all
these
different
cultural
shifts
and
I.
B
Think
one
of
the
things
that
Tony
mines,
benshan
and
tomorrow
was
mentioning
too.
Is
we
use
the
same
terms
for
many
many
things
and
really
setting
the
stage
in
creating
shared
understanding
of
what
the
terms
mean
within
each
of
these
different
groups
is
really
hard
and
leaning
back
on
the
people,
timing,
which
I
would
consider
myself
an
old
timey
ops
person
having
been
its
admin
ages
ago.
B
I
got
the
white
hair
to
show
it
that
you
know
that
there
is
a
lot
to
be
learned
from
all
the
different
parts
of
the
core
companies
and
the
organizations
that
we
work
within
and
with
externally
as
well.
So
I
think
that's
one
of
the
things
that
that
I've
actually
seen
at
dev
rel
people
navigate
very
nicely
often
and
bringing
them
to
the
for
a
Ryan.
You
seem
to
have
something
to
say:
yeah.
D
I
was
just
gonna
pile
on
and
and
thank
Tony
for
the
excellent
question
about
partners
and
say
I'm
sure
that
that
Diane
especially
understands
this.
This
issue
more
than
most
folks,
because
she's
directly
at
the
intersection
between
unity
and
users
and
and
partner
efforts
and
a
lot
of
this
stuff
internally
within
Red,
Hat
and
I.
Think
it's
especially
true
what
Timo
was
saying,
how
you
have
both
segmented
external
community
and
different
kind
of
personas
that
may
need
to
get
treated
differently
and
marketed
to
differently.
D
You
don't
want
to
spam
all
of
your
partners
or
your
your
users.
The
same
way.
You
would
other
potential
people
you
know
market
to
them
successfully,
but
then
you
also
have
to
map
those
different
persona
groups
successfully
to
your
internal
stakeholders
and
be
able-
and
that's
like
a
almost
like
a
matrix
comparison
of
internal
personas
and
external
personas
that
need
to
be
trained,
related
back
and
forth
so
that
everyone
understands
how
they
can
be
aligned
in
order
to
create
yes
as
a
whole.
B
Yes,
I
think
that
that's
an
interesting
at
the
perspective
perspective,
I,
think
Commons
is
one
of
those
community
models
that
we
intentionally
decided
to
bring
in
end-users.
Partners
is
V
cloud
hosts
and
all
the
contributors
and
all
the
engineers
and
all
the
participants
in
the
community
and
I.
Think
in
my
very
opening
talk,
which
was
supposed
to
be
my
closing
talk,
but
hey
who's,
who's
keeping
track
of
time
here,
not
me,
I,
think
one
of
the
thing
is
things
that
I
tine
tend
to
send
talk
about.
B
Now
is
who's
participating,
they're
all
participants
as
opposed
to
members
or
specific
roles,
and
they
all
have
different
personas
and
really
beginning
I.
Think
that
the
science
of
community
development,
which
is
kind
of
the
topic
that
I'm
keen
on
unravelling,
is?
Is
that
really
understanding
who
is
participating
in
your
community?
And
how
do
you
engage
with
them
where
they
are?
How
do
you
meet
them
where
they
are?
B
You
know
making
sure
we
onboard
the
contributors,
because
you
know
damn
well
that
those
engineers
and
those
resources
doing
the
coding
are
pretty
damn
important
and
but
it's
the
contributions
and
the
feedback,
and
you
know
the
feel
how
the
community
shows
the
gaps
and
what
needs
to
be
filled.
There
are
so
many
other
roles.
The
participants
fill
that
if
we
ignore
them,
we
do
at
our
peril.
A
Yeah
and
then,
as
part
of
that,
there's
also
just
a
logistical
issue
of
platforms.
I
think
I
didn't
have
time
to
get
into
this,
but
I
have
been
in
a
couple
of
examples
where
I
get
how
people
might
think.
Oh,
this
is
just
not
scalable
that
we
have
people
in
this
role.
They're
all
Stack,
Overflow
they're,
looking
here,
they're
looking
there
they're
all
these
crazy
places
like
really
need
to
be
able
to
centralize
this
and
measure
it
which
I
know
it
can
work
but
I.
A
You
know
banning
examples
where
the
spring
community
originally
had
a
forum
and
I
think
even
Cloud
Foundry,
but
they
were
just
like
well.
Why
would
we
physically
force
them
to
come
to
our
pond
when
they're
already
in
the
ocean
of
Stack
Overflow
or
wherever
else
it
may
be
right?
And
yes,
you
can't
get
this
sense
of
control,
but
what
you
gain
is
knowing
that
these
are
your
participants.
A
These
are
all
your
members,
but
this
is
where
they're
hanging
out
so
just
sort
of
force
a
you
know,
a
behavior,
that's
against,
what's
naturally
happening
as
opposed
to
honoring.
It
is
definitely
challenging
so
like
when
I
joined,
New
Relic
the
first
week
they're
like
we're
so
proud.
We've
just
created
our
new
forum
effect.
A
It
fails
or
it's
it's
just
a
complete
waste
of
time.
But
you
shouldn't
understand
that
you
kind
of
going
up
against
the
challenge
from
the
get-go
and
then
here
we
were
also
like
trying
to
create
customizations
to
the
forum
that
you
know
we
didn't
really
even
have
engineering
resources.
For
so
you
know
people
have
different
opinions,
but
my
personal
opinion
from
that
was
I.
A
Just
felt
like
you
know
there,
you
should
definitely
think
about
all
the
different
options
and
again
like
not
only
meeting
people
where
they
are
like
you
know,
in
terms
their
level
of
knowledge
and
what
they
needs
are,
but
also
like,
physically,
you
know
or
online
where
they
are
like
understand.
That's
that's
also
part
of
understanding
and
respecting
the
culture,
and
you
know
there's
Stack
Overflow
for
a
Reese,
so
there's
some
challenges
and
I
was
just
talking
to
another
company
trying
to
do
the
same
thing.
A
B
C
There
there's
an
old
there's:
all
the
research
in
this
space
is,
is
literally
30
years
old.
Ever
since
there's
been
an
online
message
board,
but
there
is
an
old
axiom
that
there's
a
ninety
nine
one
rule
participation,
inequality
rule.
So,
in
addition
to
like
respecting
all
the
things
you're
saying,
it's
also
realizing
that
you're
gonna
have
1%.
That
is
that
you
know
they're
the
ones
contributing
code
they're,
the
ones
always
answering
questions
they're
the
ones
there
then
you'll
have
nine
percent
of
people
you'll
see
pop
up
one
in
a
while
once
in
a
while.
C
That
means,
90
percent
of
your
community
are
just
lurkers
and
that's
a
freaking
to
measure
community
to
I
know
when
I
was
actively
doing
community
management.
We
would
look
at
those
numbers
over
quarter
of
a
quarter.
It
always
broke
into
those
buckets.
We
have.
You
know
we
could
gas
by
the
number
of
registered
users.
This
is
how
many
people
we
have
who's
gonna,
be
active.
Who's.
Nine
I
think
is
important
because
I
know
my
first
community
was
hilarious.
C
Big
admin
and
I
didn't
dare
dare
comment
because
I
was
such
a
junior
admin
that
I
didn't
ever
commented,
but
I
always
went
there
to
get
answers
to
questions
and
do
things
so
the
importance
of
community.
You
know
it
goes
around
that
too,
like
if
you're
out
there
providing
a
resource
for
or
your
community.
Maybe
that's
resource
lives,
a
whole
bunch
of
different
places,
like
you
said,
just
a
matter
of
keeping
track
of
it
and
knowing
where
people
want
to
assemble.
E
Yeah
one
comment
on
this
are
creating
new
platforms
and
creating
new
communities,
especially
when
operating
here
in
European
Union,
the
GD,
P,
R
and
R.
The
privacy
regulations
are
extremely
expensive.
If
you
make
mistakes
in
this,
so
appealing
to
create
your
own
community
to
cater
the
marketing,
listen
then
fail
fast,
yeah,
that's
a
good
advice
for
anyone.
Don't
do
it.
Your
existing
platforms
and.
E
Especially
when
working
a
like
a
bit
larger
cooperation
where
there
are
open
source
communities-
and
it's
already
really
difficult
to
work
across
the
departments
like
one
department-
could
be
one
funding,
some
community
building
like
events
or
something
and
then
like
yourself,
I
work
are
working
in
another
department
and
you
have
a
different
manager
and
that's
already
very
challenging.
Then
if
you
have
to
call
this
chile
PR
thing
with
the
legal
department
and
communications
department,
it's
quite
hassle,
sometimes.
B
Definitely
recognize
that
our
legal
department
knows
me
well,
every
time,
I
launch
a
new
website
or
a
new
something
community.
It's
like
okay
and
any
I
think
that
also
we
at
Red
Hat
and
a
number
of
companies.
They
have
open
source
program
offices
too
so,
and
they've
been
really
good
about
giving
guidance
on
governance
and
and
gdb
are
issues.
So
if
you
have
that
at
your
company,
that's
a
great
thing,
but
if
you're
in
a
smaller
startup
the
temptation
to
not
to
not
follow
the
rules
is
strong.
C
It's
not
just
in
the
small
companies,
let's
be
really
honest
there.
Sometimes
you
have
to
be
very
willing
to
have
that
fight
with
bigger
companies
with
with
sales
managers
park,
managers
that
also
have
numbers
they're
wanting
to
meet
in
there,
like.
Just
like
your
presentation,
look
at
all
of
this
opportunity.
Yeah
yeah,
explain
why
it's
not
for
them.
B
And
I
really
I
think
I'm.
What's
wonderful
about
the
evolution
of
the
developer
relations
rule
inside
of
companies
is
that
it
is
I
mean
I,
see
it
as
another
arm
of
Community
Development.
Another
arm
of
open
source
I
mean
I
meet
every
one
of
you.
I
have
met
through
an
open
source
project
and
then
informed
like
from
some
of
Ryan's
work.
Doing
you
know,
amazing
things
out
on
things
that
are
completely
tangental
to
open
shift,
and
you
know
this
and
Gina
and
Tony
and
I've
seen
you
on
like
a
bazillion
other
projects.
B
Besides
the
ones
that
you
get
paid
to
work
on,
though
I
think
the
the
thing
that
we
bring
is
to
dev
rel.
Is
you
bring
an
ethos
or
I'm
trying
to
pick
a
good
word
here
for
it,
but
a
way
of
understanding
how
open
source
works
to
the
corporate
side
of
the
thing
of
the
animal
and
help
to
inform
even
at
Red
Hat
Tony's
been
there
Bryan's
there
now
I'm
here
now
you
know
it's
like.
B
B
I'm
trying
to
think
of
you
know
I
know
right
now,
especially
in
Commons.
We
have
a
real
emphasis
on
giving
the
podium
away
to
our
end.
Users,
I
think
CN
CF
is
doing
that
as
well
and
in
trying
to
get
more
of
our
end
users,
who
tell
us
their
lessons,
learned
and
their
best
practices
for
using
our
technologies
or
giving
us
feedback
telling
us
that
so
I
think
the
end
users
are
becoming
have
always
been
they're.
B
Very
you
know,
high-value
objects
for
sales
and
marketing
teams,
but
there
they're
becoming
more
and
more
recognized
as
the
keys
or
the
linchpins
of
the
success
of
companies.
Though,
when
we
go
back
to
the
metrics
conversations,
we
had
earlier
we're
talking
about
measuring,
pull
requests
and
issues,
and
you
know
participation
on
forums
and
that
and
quite
often
those
are
not
the
end
users
actually
more
often
than
not
the
end.
Users
are
another
whole
conversation
and
another
whole
very
key
part
of
how
we
drive
innovation
into
our
projects
and
get
our
feedback
and
I.