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Description
Rage Against The Silos (And Other Windmills) on why many pop organizational truisms are not.
Guest Speaker: Kevin Behr (Red Hat, Global Transformation Office)
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All
right,
everybody
welcome
back
to
another
openshift
commons
briefing
today,
as
we
like
to
do
on
fridays.
We're
doing
talks
about
organizational
digital
transformation
with
folks
from
the
global
transformation
office,
and
today
we
have
with
us
kevin
beer
with
a
great
title:
rage
against
the
silos
and
other
windmills
and
he's
gonna
introduce
himself
and
his
topic
and
we'll
have
live
q
a
at
the
end
and
a
conversation
so
kevin,
take
it
away
and
elf
and
what
you
do
here
at
red
hat.
A
So
I
kind
of
wanted
to
put
these
ideas
together.
Just
because
I'm
hearing
a
lot
of
people
say
a
lot
of
things
and
I'm
hearing
these
conversations
kind
of
die
off
after
they
say
you
know
well
damn
the
silo
right,
and
so
I
want
to
make
sure
that
you
know,
as
we
kind
of
communicate
out
to
folks
that
you
know.
A
lot
of
people
are
struggling
with
these
problems
and
I
think
there's
been
an
echo
chamber
over
a
lot
of
years.
Diane
like
around
just
how
you
know.
A
Do
we
actually
start
to
address
these
problems,
so
I'm
just
gonna
kind
of
throw
some
ideas
out
there
today
and
you
know
I
definitely
reserve
the
right
to
be
more
moderate
in
questioning
than
I'm
going
to
be
in
presentation-
and
I
do
the
goal
here
is
to
make
us
think
and
and
to
maybe
unstick
some
of
the
ideas
that
we've
had
and
kind
of
been
rattled
in.
So
that's
what
I'm
gonna
do
all
right
so
off
on
the
off
on
the
adventure.
A
So
I
work
in
the
global
transformation
office
at
red
hat
with
three
other
dudes
and
a
bunch
of
hopefully
a
bunch
of
other
folks
that
will
be
coming
online
here,
but
andrew
clay,
shaffer,
some
of
you
might
know
andrew
you
know
co-founder
puppet
worked
at
openstack
project,
he's
done
a
lot
of
stuff
built.
A
lot
of
things
came
from
pivotal
last,
where
he
kicked
a
lot
of
rear
building
an
organization
there.
John
willis
is
a
gentleman.
I've
known
forever
has
done
gosh.
A
I
think
most
of
the
state
of
devops
kind
of
reports
at
the
devops
days,
conferences
really
really
brilliant.
Guy
with
like
40
years
of
experience
working
in
banking-
and
you
know
going
way
back
and
and
yet
still
staying
pressing
and
very,
very
relevant
in
conversations
right
now
about
automated
governance
and
automated
access
stations
and
some
really
really
brilliant
things
that
he's
been
working
on
in
that
space.
A
Jay
bloom
has
been
a
partner
of
mine
for
years
we
consulted
together,
we've
also
our
friends,
but
jabe
is
finishing
his
phd
right
now
at
carnegie
mellon
and
he's
actually
working
in
the
field
of
organizational
planning,
design
over
long
periods
of
time
and
transition
so
and
james
one
of
the
smartest
people
that
I
know
I
love
to
get
to
work
with
him.
It's
an
honor,
so
the
devops
methodology.
A
I
I
went
on
devops.com
and
did
a
query
for
silos,
and
I
think
I
want
to
say
between
seven
and
800
results
came
up.
I
think
it
was
like
745
results
came
up
and
I
kind
of
scrolled
through
most
of
them
and
and
to
be
honest
with
you.
Most
of
them
were
all
the
silos
you
know,
or
every
silo
is
bad
or
if
you
find
one
on
the
road
kill
it.
A
There
is
not
one
so
just
want
to
say
that,
and
when
we
talk
about
the
devops
methodology,
all
the
time
in
these
articles
that
people
write-
and
I
know
people
mean
well-
this
is
not
a
thing
that
you
can
reference
as
a
standard
body
of
knowledge
that
everybody
can
go
pick
up
and
do
it's
not
the
itil
right,
it's
not
some
sort
of
framework,
so
we
need
to
stop
referring
to
it
as
that.
It's
really
an
adventure
in
socio-technical
thinking
and
systems.
A
So
in
terms
of
our
ability
to
kind
of
grok
culture.
I
want
us
to
think
about
it
more
in
this
slide.
I'm
not
trying
to
define
it
exactly,
but
I
do
want
to
make
sure
that
we
understand
some
elements
of
culture
and
one
of
the
thing
is
it's
inherently
a
rear-view
mirror.
It
is
inherently
what
we've
done
in
our
organizational
disposition.
A
A
A
So
one
of
the
reasons
why
I
believe
this
is:
is
that
what
we
start
to
see
is
that
really
what
devops
is?
Is
it's
more
about
cross-functional
alignment
than
killing
silos
and,
if
we're
having
cross-functional
alignment,
usually
that
means
functional
stuff
is
contained
in
organizations
and
sub
organizations
which
we
would
call
silos.
A
So
if
we
think
about
having
to
actually
work
across
those
functions,
then
we
actually
are
thinking
more
about
how
the
devops
kind
of
chain
works,
which
is
that
we
reach
across
boundaries
right
we've
increased
we
reached
across
development
and
operations,
boundaries
and
a
lot
of
people
thought
because
we
had
to
do
that.
The
boundaries
themselves
are
the
thing
that
we
have
to
attack
and
they're
not
and
furthermore,
you
don't
even
have
permission
in
most
cases.
A
So,
what's
really
important
is
that
if
we
do
have
organizational
silos
in
our
company-
and
they
do
exist
for
a
reason
in
many
cases-
they're
like
blinders,
on
a
horse
right
and
we
think
about
just
all
the
things
going
on
around
us
extraneous
to
us
that
are
not
important.
So
we
kind
of
need
to
think
about
how
we
organize
and
what
we
do.
But
what's
really
important
is
how
information
and
actually
boundary
spanning
can
happen
across
the
silos.
A
In
light
of
some
new
buzzword
or
whiz-bang
thing,
and
I'm
not
saying
that
we
don't
need
to
add
capability
and
add
organizational
functions
whenever
we
need
to
do
different
things,
it
just
comes
way
too
fast
and
way
too
cliche.
In
my
opinion,
in
many
cases,
so
one
of
the
basic
things
that
I
think
is
important
is
that,
when
organizations
announce
strategy
board
members,
this
is
a
message
to
you.
Guys
and
gals.
A
A
If
you
want
to
think
of
a
flat
organization,
you
want
to
think
of
it
being
like
a
layer,
two
network,
a
really
huge
layer
to
network
where
everybody
can
hear
everybody
else's
traffic,
where
everybody
can
hear
everybody
else's
broadcasts.
That
just
say
I'm
here
right.
So
in
some
ways
it
could
sound
like
you
walked
into
a
neighborhood
or
a
huge
stadium,
depending
on
how
big
this
network
is
of
dogs
barking,
and
what
really?
What
that
means
in
sense
of
dog's
parking,
not
that
we're
dogs,
but
if
you've
ever
heard
dogs
bark.
A
You
know
there
was
a
great
far
side
comic
that
actually
showed
that
they
were
all
just
actually
saying:
hey.
They
had
little
captions
above
their
names
or
their
heads,
while
they
were
barking
and
if
we
actually
have
an
organization
full
of
people
broadcasting
their
normal
things
that
they
do
every
day
and
it's
all
out
in
the
open.
We
actually
can
saturate
our
organizational
networks
with
meaningless
communication
stuff.
That
has
nothing
to
do
with
us
right,
and
so
it's
really
really
important.
A
So
the
problem
that
we
have
is
is
that,
in
order
to
have
traffic
like
that,
it
has
to
be
very
specific
and
routed,
and
it
has
to
have
rules.
Our
organizations
have
rules,
and
they
have
this
kind
of
traffic
routing
in
place,
but
it
doesn't
work
right
in
many
cases
or
it
was
designed
for
something
else.
Obviously,
because
what's
going
on
now,
just
it's
not
being
served
by
this.
A
So
it's
important
to
think
about
its
silos
are
a
really
important
way
that
we
can
segment
communications,
traffic,
focus,
improvement
and
all
kinds
of
things
that
are
specific
to
our
function
as
it
relates
to
other
functions.
But
what
we
need
to
remember
is
that,
if
our
silo
is
completely
permeable,
it's
not
a
silo,
it
does
not
help
us
focus.
It
does
not
help
us
work
so
silos.
Just
kind
of
one
of
my
general
rules
can
serve
us
as
long
as
they
don't
hinder
the
flow
of
work.
A
A
It's
really
important
to
think
that
not
everything
that
needs
to
be
done
needs
to
exist
in
a
organizational
caste
structure,
something
built
in
concrete
right
like
something
that
stays
in
and
really
has
durability,
but
rather
a
lot
of
the
things.
The
the
things
that
we
need
to
functionally
do
together
can
also
be
organized
ephemerally
to
pop
up,
get
the
work
done
and
then
go
away.
So
these
are
kind
of
called
response
options
or
what
I'll
call
a
response
repertoire?
A
A
I
I
mentioned
this
a
little
bit
before,
but
I'm
a
really
big
fan
of
moving
to
the
idea
of
roles
over
job
descriptions,
and
this
is
a
very
subtle
thing
for
some
people,
but
not
for
me.
I
think
that
the
difference
is.
Is
that
how
hard
is
it
to
change
your
role
in
a
company
versus
how
hard
is
it
to
change
your
job
description?
A
So
I
think
one
of
the
key
pieces
we
can
start
to
move
to
in
our
job
descriptions
as
we
move
forward
is
we
can
say
that
they
are
to
play
a
variety
of
roles
in
that
job
description,
and
we
can
mention
some
of
those
roles
but
not
limited
to
those
roles.
In
other
words,
in
order
to
contribute
to
the
value
streams
as
we
see
fit
right.
A
In
other
words,
I
think
organizations
are
the
most
effective
whenever
they
think
about
organizing
around
work
instead
of
running
work
processes
through
organizations,
and
the
reason
for
this
is
quite
simple.
One
is
purpose
built.
The
other
is
a
reaction.
That's
going
to
have
a
lot
of
other
rules
and
it's
going
to
have
a
lot
of
other
residue
from
the
way
the
organization
will
originally
work,
and
it
might
not
even
be
good
for
that
kind
of
situation.
A
So
I
mentioned
ephemeral,
things
cruz,
a
huge
thing.
Some
of
you
have
heard
jabe
and
myself
or
even
david
snowden
talk
about
these
notion
for
cruz.
I
I
really
love
this.
This
kind
of
concept
right,
which
is
kind
of
based
on
the
volunteer
fire
department,
notion
right.
It's
a
great
example
of
a
crew
and
that
you
know
the
small
town
might
not
have
enough
fire
activity
to
warrant
having
a
full-time
fire
department
or
say
a
shopping
mall
that
couldn't
get
underwritten
insurance.
If
there
wasn't
a
professional
fire
department
there.
A
So
what
a
lot
of
towns
do
that
don't
have
that
need
they
use
the
formal
volunteer,
because
it's
in
everybody's
interest,
obviously
to
put
out
fires,
make
sure
there's
fire
safety.
But
since
there's
not
enough
demand
for
a
full-time
or
budget
for
a
full-time
crew,
the
community
will
usually
band
together.
A
Buy
the
you
know:
buy
the
fire
engines
by
the
house,
maybe
even
elect
a
chief
that
you
know:
they'll
they'll,
be
there
full-time
and
a
couple
of
full-time
employees
if
they're
a
little
bigger,
but
the
volunteers
that
work
somewhere
else
that
already
have
a
job
make
up
the
majority
of
that
response
mechanism.
So
what
happens?
I
think
we
all
know
at
some
level.
Is
these
people
are
doing
their
actual
day
jobs?
But
when
an
emergency
happens,
a
signal
will
go
off,
sometimes
audible,
sometimes
vibrating.
A
A
They
know
what
they're
going
to
do
when
they
get
there.
What
their
role
is
because
they've
rehearsed
it
whenever
there's
not
a
fire-
and
this
is
a
key
thing
that
I
don't
think
our
organizations
get
a
chance
to
do.
We
have
to
take
the
chances
they're,
never
going
to
line
up
and
we're
never
going
to
have
an
opportunity
that
just
says
hey.
A
You
have
enough
time
to
rehearse
something,
but
whenever
we
find
particular
situations
in
our
organization
where
our
response
is
really
jagged
and
it's
not
smooth-
and
we
don't
seem
to
meet
the
objective
of
that
work-
you
know
we're
uniting
to
do.
Then
we
need
to
practice
it,
and
you
know
I.
I
think
that
any
kind
of
response
option
that
has
some
sort
of
a
timing
element
and
a
criticality
element
to
it
needs
to
be
rehearsed.
So
these
folks
rehearse
assembling
on
a
signal,
but
more
than
that
they
rehearse
hey.
A
Where
are
you
going
to
sit
in
the
fire
truck
and
what
is
your
role
in
fighting
the
fire?
They
learn
all
of
those
things
they
when
they
arrive
at
the
fire
station.
They
know
what
to
do.
They
know
what
they
need
to
put
on
the
truck
or
what
they
need
to
wear
and
they
get
in
and
they
occupy
their
position
in
the
truck
ready
to
perform
any
function,
that's
needed
as
they
get
there.
A
So
it's
really
really
important
to
understand
that
these
are
rehearsed
roles
and
what
makes
a
crew
so
powerful
is
its
ability
to
assemble
no
roles
not
have
to
storm
and
norm
and
do
all
that
junk.
They
already
know
what
they're
doing
and
then
they
go
do
their
purpose
and
then,
when
it's
done,
they
bring
their
equipment
back.
They
put
everything
away
so
that
it's
ready
for
next
time,
in
other
words,
documenting
handing
off
knowledge
to
other
folks,
and
then
they
go
back
to
their
day
job.
A
A
A
It's
there's
a
lot
of
stuff
missing
from
that
right
and-
and
one
of
the
things
I
think
that's
important
is
to
understand-
is
that
you
can
get
a
great
outcome,
but
you
can
get
there
in
a
really
crappy
way,
and
sometimes
it
matters.
Sometimes
it
doesn't.
Sometimes
you
just
need
to
get
there,
but
my
point
is:
is
that
organizational
structures
that
are
not
optimized
or
that
are
even
dysfunctional
can
still
produce
some
pretty
amazing
results,
because
people
figure
out
how
to
do
it
now.
A
The
thing
I
will
say
is
that
sometimes
the
toll
on
these
people
in
these
organizations
can
be
extremely
high
and
not
sustainable.
So
just
getting
something
done.
Neither
proves
the
organization
nor
proves
the
level
of
sustainability
of
the
effort,
and
so
the
more
convoluted
and
the
more
dysfunctional
the
organization,
obviously
the
more
heroism
and
over
effort
and
and
you
know,
kind
of
multi-effort
becomes
and,
and
so
that
is
kind
of,
maybe
not
the
trajectory
we
want
to
be
heading
on.
A
A
When
you're
talking
about
these
leaders,
directors,
vice
presidents
senior
vice
presidents,
they
are
like
orchestra
conductors
right,
and
so
every
section
in
the
orchestra
or
every
function
you
could
say,
has
a
first
chair
a
leader
right.
This
is
who,
in
many
cases,
the
conductor
will
communicate
with,
and
this
is
something
that
I
think
is
really
important.
A
A
You
know
total
literal
sense
right,
because
we
don't
actually
have
instruments
and
we're
not
playing
in
an
actual
orchestra,
but
the
universal
principle
can
work,
and
I
think
there
is
a
reason
why
elbows
still
sit
together
and
the
reason
why
I
brought
this
up
is:
there
is
a
reason
for
partitioning
and
for
functional
siloing,
now,
maybe
not
with
the
depth
and
with
the
lack
of
permeability
that
most
silos
have
where
they
only
open
at
the
top
and
at
the
bottom.
That's
not
really
what
we
want.
A
A
So
when
you
start
these
things,
don't
start
them
in
a
vacuum.
Make
them
deal
with
organizational
rules.
Of
course
people
are
going
to
get
a
lot
less
done
if
they
don't
have
to
deal
with
compliance.
The
same
way
that
everybody
else
does
right.
We
need
to
address
the
real
organizational
throughput
issues
and
design
issues
and
not
create
fake
solutions
that
aren't
sustainable,
because
we
can't
have
everybody
be
using
exceptions
all
the
time.
A
A
crew
can
be
a
great
way
to
figure
out
how
to
deal
with
a
compliance
issue
or
satisfy
some
sort
of
a
control
right,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day,
we
want
to
make
sure
that
we're
actually
using
rotation
as
a
powerful
way
to
create
more
response
options.
If
I
have
two
people
that
are
my
experts
on
something
and
they're
not
available,
I
don't
have
that
expertise
anymore
or
any
part
of
that
expertise.
A
The
way
that
I
talked
about
in
the
coal
miner
talk
that
I
did
a
long
time
ago,
devops
and
coal
mining-
you
can
find
it
out
there,
but
the
idea
was
is
that
in
the
mine,
people
would
learn
the
pareto
shape
of
each
other's
job.
In
other
words,
what
is
the
20
that
I
can
learn
from
what
you
do
that
will
give
me
some
high
degree
of
functionality
in
what
it
is
you
do.
So
if
you
got
hurt,
if
you
became
disabled
or
you
couldn't
show
up
for
work,
I
could
be
able
to.
A
You
know,
pick
up
the
slack
and
be
able
to
do
some
things.
Conversely,
with
safety,
if
the
person
who
understood
safety
on
that
crew
was
killed
or
hurt,
and
nobody
else
knew
how
to
cross-functionally
perform
those
functions,
there
would
be
a
big
problem.
So
learning
everybody's
thing,
part
of
the
devops
notion
right
of
us
having
these
these
kind
of
then
affinities
with
development
operations,
security,
but
again
they
don't
all
hundred
percent
align,
there's
a
then
affinity,
in
other
words,
a
small
part
overlaps.
A
That's
when
we're
achieving
the
kind
of
organizational
response
options
that
we
need
to,
because
that
adjacency
of
that
then
allows
somebody
with
the
smaller
part
of
that
to
be
more
functional
and
teams
that
have
worked
like
that
can
actually
be
more
functional
too.
If
they
all
have
a
piece,
you
might
get
a
hole,
it's
certainly
better
than
nothing
and
over
time,
you'll
get
many
many
many
functional
engineers
and
folks
that
can
actually
step
in
right.
A
So
yes,
oboes
do
need
to
sit
together
in
the
orchestra
because
they
contribute
in
a
way
where
they
actually
need
to
do
this
same
with
strings
right.
You
don't
see
folks,
messing
up
the
sections
are
playing
with
them.
A
lot
in
orchestras
now
in
some
new
classical
orchestras
you'll
see
some
variations
of
this.
A
A
We
we
don't
need
to
rail
against
silence
right,
but
we
actually
have
to
work
together
and
we've
got
to
build
organizational
structures
right
that
actually
accomplish
or
or
at
least
don't
keep
us
from
accomplishing
our
organization's
goals
right
and
it's
a
continuum
and
there's
not
a
lot
of
room
for
perfectionism
here,
because
humans
are
involved,
human
structure
is
involved
and
human
politics
are
involved.
So,
and
you
know,
when
we've
got
those
three
things:
we've
got
our
egos
and
we've
got
a
lot
of
our
feelings
and
we've
got
our
aspirations
in
there
too.
A
If
it's
careful
and
we're
careful
about
it,
it's
subversive,
but
it's
the
right
thing
to
do
in
many
cases,
so
work
inside
your
organization
to
find
out
how
much
of
the
structure
can
be
changed
but
be
careful
about
changing
it,
because
it
is
an
experiment.
You
don't
always
know,
what's
going
to
happen
and
remember
just
because
it's
the
opposite
of
what
you
have
that
doesn't
work
doesn't
mean
it's
going
to
work.
So
that's
the
thing
I
really
want
us
to
understand
is
it's
not
that
silos
are
good
or
silos
are
bad.
A
This
is
something
that
we
do
and
we
work
with,
like.
I
said,
leaders
that
are
doing
this
all
the
time.
This
is
something
that
we
are
very
interested
in,
advancing
our
practice
on
and
have
been
working
in
this
space
for
quite
some
time.
So
my
experience
as
a
former
cio
cto,
an
author
and
kind
of
researcher,
get
peaked.
A
Whenever
I
see
organizations
that
are
brave
enough
to
admit
where
they're
at
and
start
a
journey
towards
what
they
want
to
become,
and
so
we're
very
much
a
part
of
that
at
the
enterprise
level
and
if
you're
a
leader
doing
that
at
a
large
level,
we
would
love
to
talk
to
you.
So
that's
all
I
have
for
today,
diane.
A
D
C
B
D
A
B
And
connecting
so
it's
a
lot
of
what
you're
saying
I'm
thinking
in
my
head.
Oh
my,
you
know
having
structures
for
fulfillment
for
contributors
and
maintainers,
but
on
the
organizational
side
and
stuff
I'm
a
lot
of
what
you're
talking
about
conceptually
works.
Fine,
you
know,
you
know
it's
and
and
really
really
amazing,
but
I'm
wondering
like
how
much
of
these
silos
predestined?
B
A
What
you're
going
to
find
or
what
you're
going
to
want
to
do
is
look
at
what
could
be.
Given
that
I
have
a
positive
intent.
I
want
to
get
this
work
done.
I
want
this
mission
to
get
met.
Why
would
I
put
this
here
and
one
of
the
things
I
think
that
we
fail
to
grasp?
Is
we
come
up
against
the
thing?
The
silo
and
we're
like
I'm
trying
to
get
this
thing
done
and
now
I
feel
like
I've,
got
to
blow
a
hole
in
the
side
of
this
thing.
A
A
So
what
we're
going
to
do
is
we're
going
to
make
a
you
know
an
insert
silo
here
right,
we're
going
to
protect
this
team,
we're
going
to
make
sure
that
nobody
can
get
them
to
do
anything,
except
for
you
know
a
thing,
and
so
one
of
the
things
I
found
that
you
know
gold
rat
has
said
over
had
said
over
and
over
again
that's
kind
of
bounce
around
my
head,
like
a
22
bullet
right.
Is
that,
like,
I
think,
because
it
shreds
a
lot
of
ideas
that
I
have
is?
A
Is
this
kind
of
idea
that
you
know
you're
going
to
first
of
all,
the
rules
that
people
give
you
are
often
in
the
form
of
measurements
right.
So
one
of
the
things
ella
used
to
always
say
is
tell
me
how
I
measured
and
I'm
going
to
tell
you
how
I
behave
right
and
and
also,
if
you
want
to
get
value
from
a
new
solution,
you
have
to
uncover
the
rules
that
allowed
people
to
live
with
the
scenario
that
existed
without
the
solution.
A
And
so,
when
you
talk
about
removing
it
because
of
x,
you
may
not
address
all
the
reasons
that
the
silo
was
even
created
in
the
first
place,
I'll
be
completely
dysfunctional
right,
but
until
we
figure
out
what
those
rules
were
and
how
we
could
solve
for
those
problems
that
organization's
not
going
to
go
away,
we're
not
going
to
get
to
play
with
it,
because
it's
protective
and
I
think,
a
lot
of
what
we
see
in
our
enterprise
that
we're
running
into.
Is
this
weird
notion?
A
One
or
a
few
people
probably
are
gonna
change
it
drastically,
and
that
might
not
be
a
bad
thing.
If
for
shareholders
who
are
saying
you
know,
I
like,
depending
on
a
check
I
like,
knowing
that
this
place
is
going
to
do
what
it
says,
it's
going
to
do
and
now
you're
going
to
change
that
that
stinks.
I
don't
like
that.
So
what?
If
you're
going
to
be
more
happy
like?
A
That's
not
you
know,
so
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
we
have
to
understand
is
if
we
can
address
the
rules
that
cause
the
dang
thing.
We
have
a
chance-
or
at
least
we
have
a
chance
to
say.
Could
we
try
this
and
I
found
a
way
a
lot
of
times
to
get
rid
of.
A
silo
is
just
to
act
out
the
cross-functional
alignment
as
an
experiment
right.
How
did
that
go
and
by
the
way
this
is
kind
of
what
devops
feels
like
to
me.
A
We've
got
this
network
team
and
we've
got
this
developer
team
and
the
developer
people
are
like.
Why
do
we
have
to
know
about
firewalls
and
the
network?
People
are
like
because
they're
more
important
than
anything
right.
Of
course
nobody
says
that
anymore,
but
the
the
point
being
like
we
actually
have
to
really
start
to
figure
out
how
we
could
do
these
collaborations.
A
Do
you
need
to
work
with
this
team?
Do
you
want
to
work
with
this
group?
Can
we
put
a
crew
here
they're
all
talking,
because
what
they
care
about
is
the
flow
of
work,
the
health
of
the
system,
which
actually
should
help
create
the
morale
right
and
so
that
stuff
to
me,
is
you
know
very
idealistic,
but
at
the
same
time,
you've
got
to
back
up
a
little
bit
and
figure
out
how
the
heck
we
got
here.
You
know.
B
B
D
B
It
would
be
that
you
know
people
would
fly
in
and
I
was
in
hillsborough
or,
and
they
would
fly
in
from
japan
and
from
head
office
and
sit
in.
You
know,
operations
for
you
know
two
months,
even
though
they
knew
nothing
about
it
or
put
the
operation
guy
in
finance,
for
you
know,
two
months
or
whatever
it
is,
and
they
would
just
rotate
management
seats
through
it,
and
you
know
some
of
them.
B
A
B
That
that
workflow
is
just
not
going
to
work
and
a
lot
of
and
having-
and
we
were
joking
about
this
before
the
talk
all
of
us
at
red
hat-
are
now
just
finishing
up
our
compliance
and
ethics
training
for
the
year
for
last
year.
It
always
has
to
be
done
by
the
end
of
this
month
and
so
everybody's
scurrying
to
do
the
little
courses,
but
I
think
the
other
issue
is
a
lot
of
those
rules.
Are
there
not
for
efficiency,
but
for
protection?
A
B
And
it's
it's
really:
the
integration
of
the
compliance
and
risk
officers
and
the
operations
and
the
finance
with
the
I.t
and
the
software
development,
folks
that
when
you
have
people
who
have
at
least
an
emotional
understanding
of
what
these
other
roles
are
and
who
these
players
are,
the
the
communication
is
really
the
key.
I
think
absolutely
being
successful.
This
and
you're
never
going
to
get
rid
of
silos.
B
B
A
Yeah,
this
is
a
conversation
you
know,
like
cruz
and
a
lot
of
these
kind
of
biological
concepts.
You
know
dave
snowden
kind
of
many
many
years
ago,
kind
of
really
piqued
me
with
some
ideas
around
this
and-
and
you
know,
I
think,
if
there's
one
piece
of
piece
that
I've
picked
up
from
a
lot
of
interactions
and
conversations
we've
had
over
the
years
is,
is
that
if
we
treat
organizations
more
biological
than
mechanical,
we're
gonna
have
a
better
better
set
of
expectations
about
what's
possible
about
what
really
is
complex?
A
A
So
this
is
one
of
my
isms
bring
the
executives
to
the
release,
but
first
you
have
to
do
a
bunch
of
work
to
make
sure
that
the
people
doing
the
release,
don't
think
it's
because
they
stink
right.
So
there's
a
really,
really
important
setup
that
has
to
happen
there
from
the
exec
who
comes
to
the
developers
who
are
doing
in
engineers
doing
this
release.
Hey
I'm
just
here
to
learn,
I'm
clueless.
I
want
to
know
what
you
guys
have
to
go
through
to
get
this
done
right
get.
I
want
some
empathy
like.
A
I
need
to
be
able
to
talk
to
people
about
this
other
than
with
all
the
oversimplifications.
Everybody
uses
right
and
I
don't
like
it
when
people
think
a
release
failed
when
we
had
when
we
learned
to
something
I
want
to
learn
something
today
about
making
this
easier
together.
What
you
guys
think
what
this
team
thinks
will
make
this
easier
right
and
when
you
go
to
that,
I
remember
the
first
release
party.
I
ever
went
to
right
and
I
just
walked
out
of
there
and
I
was
like
oh
my
gosh.
B
B
A
A
All
that
stuff
is
so
huge,
so
I
think
sometimes
we
think
that
we
have
a
knowledge
economy
in
tech
like
we
were
hired
for
what
we
know
and
there's
a
certain
amount
of
that's
true.
But
if
we
haven't
figured
out
right
now,
it's
we're
hired
for
what
we
can
obtain,
learn
and
use
right
every
day,
we're
having
to
do
that,
which
means
we're
having
to
unlearn
things
and
take
them
out
of
our
brains.
When
we
have
better
information.
A
This
is
exhausting
right
and
it's
maybe
even
not
something
from
an
evolutionary
standpoint
that
we're
used
to
right.
We,
our
subconscious,
you
know
jokes
people
make-
is
that
it
knows
more
than
we
do,
but
what
I
look
at
it
as
it's
like
a
pre,
a
precomp,
a
bunch
of
dynamic
link,
libraries
right.
We
can
just
go
out
and
pull
that
code
as
we
need
it
right,
but
the
problem
is
sometimes
that
code's
old
and
we
don't
know
it
and
we
execute
the
same
pattern.
A
That's
not
right
and
and
so
for
that
situation,
where
it
no
longer
serves
us
right,
and
so
I
think
that
when
we
talk
about,
you
know
actually
going
and
seeing
the
problem.
You
know
like.
Oh,
no
and
and
many
other
people
have
said
for
yourself:
it's
not
to
fix
it.
It's
not
to
meddle
it's
not
to
should
on
people
right,
it's
literally,
so
that
you
can
develop
empathy
and
you
can
start
to
enable
people's
solutions
permeability
across
silos.
B
B
B
The
human
thing
is
to
be
able
to
share
the
stories,
yes
storytelling
and
take
to
allow
other
people
to
hear
and
see
and
maybe
be
part
of
those
stories
as
well,
and
I
think
that's
one
of
the
the
when
we
talk
about
it
in
a
mechanical
way
like
you
will
do
this,
I
mean
how
many
times,
if
we've
been
out
on
a
factory
floor
and
see
someone
who's
been
doing
the
same
job
for
30
years.
You
know.
A
It's
that
you
know
it's
funny,
because
you
know
those
rich
stories,
kind
of
form,
a
tapestry,
right
and
and
and-
and
I
often
think
that
those
stories
become
the
clothing
that
we
wear
while
we're
performing
the
work
and-
and
so
sometimes
if,
if
it's
beautiful,
that
clothing
gives
us
room
to
move
and
do
what
we
need
to
do
but
other
times
it's
like
a
straight
jacket
and
and
when
you
hear
that
story
over
and
over
again
some
people
just
put
on
a
straight
jacket.
They
don't
even
want
to
try
to
do
anything.
A
What's
the
point
right,
and
so
I
think
you're
right,
it's
the
permeability,
the
flow
and
the
air
of
the
story.
The
the
strategy
becomes
a
part
of
the
story,
it
becomes
the
missions
and,
and
if
the
story
is
we
can
do
what
we
need
to
do
and
we're
gonna.
We
have
confidence,
we're
gonna
be
able
to
help.
With
this
mission
versus
I
can't
drive
this
tank.
I
can't
drive,
I
can't
use
this
oboe,
I
can't
it's
broken
right
and
so,
like.
I
think,
how
do
we
understand?
A
You
know
as
leaders,
how
to
listen
to
those
stories
and
make
sure
that
we're
hearing
stories
from
other
places
like
you're
talking
about
the
oboes
sounding
and
blending
together.
So
you
know,
I
think
I
listened
to
culture.
You
know-
and
I
talked
about
that
like
that
kind
of
reflection-
echo
right
of
what
we
just
did.
You
know
when
orchestra
plays
and
if
they
play
in
a
right
hall,
it
has
a
really
great
ratio
of
direct
to
reflected
sound.
A
You
get
80,
85
percent
of
direct
sound
and
then
the
hall
is
the
blending
and
the
echoes
and
the
reverberations
that
just
make
it
larger
than
life
right,
and
that
brings
that
performance
together
because
it
bounces
all
over
literally
like
you
were
talking
about.
We
can
all
hear
it.
We
can
hear
it
and
it's
definite
and
it's
like
the
the
crisp,
clear
direct
and
then
we
can
hear
it
in
the
angelic
echoes
behind
us
and
around
us,
and
we
feel
it
in
our
spirits
and
our
souls
right.
A
What
can
we
do
to
make
it
sound
better
hear
better,
but
we
can't
hear
all
the
voices
at
all
the
times
because
in
the
orchestra
not
every
voice
plays
all
the
time
and
when
it
does,
everybody
notices
like
it's
a
big
deal
right
and
so
in
a
system.
One
of
the
key
pieces
is,
I
believe
that
nobody
talks
about
is
is
that
we
don't
always
use
all
of
our
potential
and
all
of
our
skills
all
the
time.
A
It's
part
of
being
in
a
system
we
subordinate,
if
I'm
a
trumpet
and
I
just
play,
and
I
riff
and
the
sax
player
plays
like
coltrane
the
whole
way
through
the
classical
piece
that
may
feel
cool
to
those
people.
That's
indulgent,
but
nobody
else
is
going
to
appreciate
that
unless
they
think
it's
funny
right
but
like
I,
I
I
think
that
the
you
know
the
notion
of
this
is
that
sometimes
it
requires
us
to
just
not
do
to
be,
to
learn,
to
rotate,
to
be
out
of
our
expertise
and
to
listen.
A
B
B
In
the
silences
and
there's
a
lot
of
value
in
the
listening
in
these
things
and
and
the
other
phrase
that
I
really
liked
is
about
the
leadership
and
the
management
role
in
kate,
using
the
use
of
the
word
cadence
and
and
that's
where
I
think,
good
leadership.
Good
management
are
they're,
always
listening
for
in
the
cadence
and
helping
to
make
sure
that
you
know
the
timpani's
come
in
when
they're
supposed
to.
D
B
A
A
I
get
that
as
humans,
but
in
a
system
it
calls
for
us
to
do
that
so
as
long
as
we're
subordinating
in
ways
that
are
useful
to
the
purpose
and
sustainable
for
us
as
humans.
I
think
that's
awesome
right
and
that's
how
we
grow,
but
you
know
the
other
stuff.
We
know
it
because
it
feels
wrong
and
it
hurts
us
and
it
drains
our
energy
yeah
so
but
yeah.
A
This
is
a
lot
of
fun
stuff
to
talk
about
and
there's
a
lot
of
metaphors
here,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day,
this
is
a
management
problem
right,
and
I
think
that
the
interaction
between
management
and
staff
needs
to
be.
You
know
a
lot
more
transparent
managers
need
to
create
this
opening
for
their
people
to
talk.
I
think
so.
B
Yeah,
oh
yeah.
Oh
I
you've
given
me
a
lot
to
think
about
and
a
lot
to
use,
and
I
I
oh
boy,
I'm
just
my.
My
brain
is
buzzing
here,
especially
with
because
I'm
stuck
in
release
mode
right
now
and
when
someone
gets
ahead
and
someone's
behind
it's
like
you
know,
nope
this
all
has
to
come
online
and
be
ready
to
be
built.
I
mean
it's
just.