►
Description
◐ This is the full interview with Laura H. Gilbert for The Higher Education Revolution
--
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A
Hi
this
is
Rob
skiff
I'm
with
high
red
revolution
this
afternoon
and
we're
doing
another
in
our
series
of
interviews.
This
one
is
with
Laura
H
Gilbert,
who
is
the
author
of
our
plan,
a
family-centered
approach
to
paying
for
college
she's
a
frequent
blogger,
speaker
and
consultant
on
higher
ed
and
she's.
A
Also
the
author
of
how
to
save
fifty
thousand
dollars
on
college
graduate
school
on
a
budget
and
back
to
school
for
grown-ups,
and
each
work
is
written
in
her
signature
coach
at
your
size,
coach
at
your
side
style,
offering
common
sense
tips
from
her
perspective
as
a
professor
coaching
parent
Laura.
Thank
you
very
very
much
for
agreeing
to
do
this
interview
on
your
book.
Our
plan
is
amazing.
A
You
know
I
really
appreciate
you
sending
me
a
kindle
copy
and
it's
an
amazing
guide
to
helping
students
work
through
thinking
about
college
finances
and
how
to
pay
for
college
from
a
very
different
perspective.
Can
you
tell
me
a
little
bit
about
why
you
decided
to
write
it
in
your
experiences
on
with
writing
that
book.
B
Absolutely
and
thank
you
so
much
for
having
me
today,
I.
Actually
the
first
book
that
I
wrote,
as
you
mentioned,
was
back
to
school
for
grownups
and
I
wrote
that
on
when
so
many
adults
were
going
back
around
2008-2009
and
I
had
gone
back
as
you'd
mentioned,
that
gone
back
to
school
is
an
adult
learner
a
number
of
years
ago
and
then
moved
into
the
HR
field
and
did
consulting
and
people
just
started.
Asking
me
a
lot
of
questions
about
how
do
you
make
this
happen
as
an
adult?
B
At
the
same
time,
I
was
a
single
mom
with
four
kids
put
them
through
school.
So
people
started
asking
me:
how
do
you?
How
do
you
do
that
to?
How
do
you
get
your
kids
to
and
through
school
on,
and
so
I've
been
working
on
these
issues
since
the
since
the
mid-90s
for
sure
and
on
what
I
noticed
a
few
years
ago,
around
2000
around
2008-2009?
B
Suddenly
people
had
lost
track
of
what
their
ultimate
goal
was.
What
that
life
was
that
they
were
looking
for
on
the
other
side,
what
they
wanted
college
to
do
for
them.
Suddenly,
everybody
seemed
to
just
be
focused
on
how
to
get
more
money
to
go
and,
as
I
started,
to
really
see
that
and
recognize
that
shift.
I
also
started
to
see
people
making
errors
on
along
the
way
that
we're
costing
them
far
more
money
than
they
needed
to
so
a
whole
bunch
of
things
were
happening.
The
cost
of
college
tuition
was
going
up.
B
There
were
all
of
these
articles
that
that
we
were
reading
in
the
news
or
just
everywhere
saying
you
have
to
go
to
college
businesses
more
and
more
we're
saying
we
only
want
people
that
have
some
sort
of
a
post-secondary
degree.
So
there
was
all
of
this
pressure
and
this
panic
setting
in
and
teaching
and
as
a
parent
and
just
as
a
coaching
and
all
of
that
on
I
kept
again
seeing
people
make
mistakes
that
they
didn't
need
to
make.
B
So
I
never
intended
to
write
this
last
book,
but
about
three
years
ago
I
just
felt
like
I
had
to
it's
like
I,
just
I
had
to
put
down
in
writing
somewhere
on
a
plan
that
people
could
could
look
at
just
an
option.
You
know
an
opportunity
for
people
to
sort
of
get
off
the
panic
and
the
the
fear
bandwagon
on.
B
B
A
So
a
great
deal,
I
know
I'm
selling
my
own
book,
which
is
made
out
of
my
district
8,
which
was
my
dissertation
on
amazon,
and
so
it's
a
great
way
to
just
you
know,
earn
a
little
extra
money.
So
please
I'll
go
out
and
buy
the
book
but
buy
it
from
Kindle.
Don't
don't
google
it
because
you
may
get
somebody
giving
money
to
someone
else
besides
the
author,
so
let's
talk
a
little
bit
more
about
I
mean
that
means
that
you
know
if
you
were
headed
back
in
2005
and.
B
I
think
the
most
that
I
had
in
school
at
once
was
three
they've
all
been.
They
all
have
been
graduated
for
a
while.
My
last
one
well
I've
got
one
that's
now
taking
a
break
from
from
his
PhD,
otherwise,
the
last
one
that
finished
his
master's
was
a
couple
of
years
ago.
So
but
the
fourth,
the
forum
finished
all
their
undergrads
by
2002.
So
that's
been
a
while.
That
has
been
a
while.
No.
A
B
B
A
A
That's
great,
so
tell
me
a
little
bit
about
how
you
know
we
had
crin
on
two
weeks
ago
talking
about
why
the
sort
of
the
structure
is
that
are
making
higher
ed
increase
its
level
of
level
of
debt
and
cost,
and
you
you
also
talk
a
little
bit
about
that
I'm
a
lot
less
though.
What
do
you
think
God
is
that
are
the
factors
that
are
really
driving
up
the
cost
and
higher
ed.
A
B
Well,
I
think
that
there
are
a
lot
of
different
entities
making
making
money
on
my.
My
approach
is
really
a
I
I
Tenten
I
spent
a
year
trying
to
run
down
that
path
and
I.
Answer
that
question
and
I,
because
I
figured.
If
I
could
answer
that
question
then
I
could
identify
where
the
issue
was
and
then
I
could
work
on
fixing
that
on
thinking
about
how
can
we
fix
that?
Not
that
I
can
fix
it,
but
that
I?
B
Could
you
know
as
a
policy
analyst,
I
could
start
working
on
that
on
and
that's
when
I
realized
that
it's
it's
way
too
big.
It's
got
too
many
pieces,
so
I
try
to
talk
about
that.
Just
a
tiny
bit
at
the
beginning
of
the
book
on
and
one
of
the
I
think
one
of
the
core
issues
is
that
there
are
so
many,
but
one
of
the
core
issues
is
that
things
have
fundamentally
changed
in
the
last
20
25
years
on,
and
so
the
premise
for
on
for
a
lot
of
education
is
different
than
it.
B
B
Is
there
a
significant
huge
major,
major
difference
in
that
degree
and
what
you
come
out
with
not
I
would
say
not
as
much
as
we
kind
of
thought
back
then,
especially
when
you
compare
now
too
many
many
many
of
the
colleges
that
have
such
that
are
just
have
their
just
egregious
in
the
terms
of
quality,
so
where
the
quality
was.
Maybe
this
big,
the
differential
was
maybe
this
big
I'm
20
years
ago.
The
quality
differential
now
is
is
tremendous,
and
so
you've
got
all
sorts
of
people
on
going
to
get
that
degree.
B
Because
there's
all
of
this,
this
fear-
and
this
this
we
must
have
and
and
I
pressure
from
all
sides
to
to
earn
these
credentials.
But
at
the
same
time
there
are
so
many
things
happening
that
are
affecting
the
quality
of
the
of
the
Diploma
that,
whereas
20
years
ago
and
sorry
I,
know
I'm
kind
of
scattered.
But
that's
kind
of
how
this
thing
is.
B
C
B
A
Used
to
buy
hey
if
I
you
know,
oh
I,
went
to
middle
barrier,
I
went
to
Yale
or
Boden
or
Stanford,
you
know,
or
on
mcallister
great
school
on
Minnesota
that
that
meant
something
now
does
it
I
mean
for
most
of
us
we're
not
going
to
be
going
to
those
institutions.
Does
it
really
mean
anything
anymore,
except
for
that
very
small
percentage
of
people
who
go
there?
Okay?
Does
it
really
make
a
difference?
What's
your
sense,
I
think.
B
A
But
they're
going
to
be
because
they
cost
more
I
mean
the
mercedes-benz
is
a
neat
car.
Okay,
I!
Don't
want
to
use
a
mercedes-benz
all
the
time.
Okay,
I
want
to
use
it.
You
know
a
Subaru
available
or
Ford
will
work
just
as
well.
That
were
kind
of
be
the
point
you
can't
a
bit
at
that.
You
know:
what's
the
purpose
of
your
spending
the
money,
what's
your
long-term
goal
and
does
the
cost
really
match
what
you're
going
to
be
making
at
the
end,
yeah.
C
B
I
would
say
not
even
just
the
cost,
but
the
whole
thing
like
I
love
your
analogy
there,
one
that
I
used
recently
at
a
presentation
I
did
with
a
group
of
high
school
students
and
their
parents
was
I.
I
said
you
already
know
how
to
do
the
kind
of
shopping
that
you
need
to
do
for
college
on
and
I
said.
Let's
say
you
want
to
buy
footwear.
B
What's
the
first
thing
you
need
to
know,
you
know
and
at
first
they're
silence
and
then
somebody,
you
know
eventually
will
say
what's
what
size
or
what
is
this
a
boot?
Or
is
this
a
dress
shoe
for
the
prom,
and
so
that's
the
first
step,
I
think
the
first
step
that
we
wear
the
first
step
used
to
be
gettin
to
go
to
the
best
college.
You
can
get
into
don't
worry
about
the
money
because
you'll
make
it
all
back
later
and
that
formula
you
store.
B
It
worked
until
about
the
until
the
mid-1990s,
and
maybe
even
if
for
a
few
years
after
that,
but
a
lot
of
today's
parents
went
to
school
themselves
in
the
80s
and
90s
and
they're
thinking
they're
still
using
that
model,
they're
thinking
that
that
model
still
exists
it
doesn't
it
might
in
rare,
like
you
said
in
some
rare
circumstances,
but
that's
not
the
risk
formula
that
you
can
use
any
more
to
me.
The
first
question
in
deciding
that
that
whole
investment
risk
cost
benefit
formula
is
what
do
you
want
the
college
to
do?
B
A
B
A
Speaker,
my
vinegar
son
is
10
and
he
wants
to
be
a
prosecuting
attorney.
Okay,
he's
got
that
in
his
mind
and
he's,
and
he
might
he
said
well,
I
kind
of
want
to
be.
You
know
a
federal
judge,
and
he
said
so.
That
means
I've
got
to
go
to
a
really
expensive,
Ali
undergraduate
institution
and
then
I
need
to
go
into
Yale
or
Harvard
Law
School,
okay.
So
there
are
a
few
of
these
professions.
A
Where
that,
where
you
know
it's
true,
you
probably
have
to
go
to
those
elite
schools,
but
for
a
vast
majority
or
if
you
want
a
job
on
Wall
Street,
for
example,
and
become
part
of
that
good
old
boy,
good
old
girl
network.
There
are
certain
schools
that
act
as
feeders
to
that.
But
if
you
want
to
do
anything
more
productive
in
your
life
arm,
there
are
tons
of
other
options
for
you
and
you
want
to
pick
the
one
that
is
going
to
be
the
most
cost-effective
and
not
have
you
end
up
in
debt.
A
B
One
of
the
things
that
I
really
seen
happen
on
is
a
shift
in
the
expectations
of
parents
and
the
expectations
of
students
and
here's
a
story.
I
was
on
on
the
parent,
a
parent
committee
at
my
youngest
son's
college
and
on
it
happened
to
be
he
graduated
in
2002
and
I.
Remember
going
out
for
an
event
and
having
the
president
and
the
thing
was
the
head
of
Admissions
say
something
had
shifted
that
literally
that
year
and
they
have
talked
to
people
at
other
small.
B
These
rich
small,
liberal
arts
colleges,
small
liberal
arts
colleges
across
the
country,
and
they
had
noticed
a
shift
at
that
time
to
that.
Whereas
up
into
that
time
on,
if
kids
would
figure
out,
students
would
figure
out
things
to
do
on
the
weekend.
Like
I,
don't
know,
study
networks
they
wanted
and
entertainment.
B
As
an
adjunct
is
the
pressure
the
pressure
from
parents,
which
I
would
have
never
thought
to
call
a
college
for
am
I
from
my
student,
but
the
pressure
to
give
the
students
A's
and
B's
or
the
the
concept
that
well,
if
I
don't
get
an
A
or
B
I'll
just
take
the
class
again
and
from
about
2002-2004
around
in
there
up
through
now.
What
I
see
a
lot
is
people
taking
the
same
class
multiple
times,
taking
out
more
and
more
loans?
A
The
growth,
so
the
growth
of
you
know
you
talked
about
on
I,
don't
have
the
page
number
but
its
location
187
in
the
kindle.
He
talked
about
how
it
used
to
be.
The
affordability,
was
cash?
Okay
did
right,
it
would
pay
for
something
in
cash
and
of
course
the
cost
was
was
smaller
right.
It
was
lower,
but
now
what
we
have
is
affordability
is
now
whether
you
can
make
the
credit
payments,
though
they
Vantage.
So
there's
a
switching
like
pickney
in
pickney
in
his
book.
A
C
A
Would
actually
call
sort
of
you
know
what
is
interest
but
a
type
of
debt
slavery,
because
you're
working
and
it's
going
to
another
entity
involuntarily
especially
make
the
case
of
student
loan
debt,
so
that
switch
from
that
making
from
the
idea
that
everybody
need
to
accumulate
capital,
and
then
they
could
deploy
that
capital
and
keep
kept
the
costs
down.
You
never
had
so
much
debt
I
mean
even
amongst
friends,
arm
and
the
children
of
friends.
People
don't
think
of
having
a
lot
of
savings.
They
think
of
what
can
I
make
that
payment
exactly.
B
Exactly
I
pay
payments
that
are
affordable
without
thinking
about,
though
the
long
long
term
cost
of
these
things,
and
to
me
that
is
the
blame,
for
that
is,
is
all
over
the
place.
It's
sort
of
a
shift
in
society
about
the
you
know
while
I
deserve.
Will
yes?
Yes,
you
deserve.
You
deserve
the
Bentley.
You
know
I
deserve
whatever,
but
that's
a
that
doesn't
mean
that
it's
the
best
choice,
Laura.
A
I
would
go.
I
would
say
that
the
blame
can
squarely
be
placed
actually
on
low
interest
rate
policies
on
which
make
debt
kind
of
affordable,
like
the
the
Federal
Reserve,
has
ADD
low
interest
payments
low
interest
rates.
Since
you
know
it's
been
lowering
its
interest
rate
since
the
Reagan
administration,
and
you
know
round
after
you
know,
the
Greenspan's
put
and
the
bubble
right.
B
A
B
B
No
and
the
numbers,
the
data-
that's
out,
there
is
kind
of
odd
incomplete.
That's
the
kind
word
it's
very
incomplete
right
now
and
I
know
there
are
a
lot
of
entities
that
are
working
on
trying
to
get
better
data,
so
that
will
be
good
once
that
happens,
but
I
think
one
of
the
challenges,
with
even
understanding
with
for
people
to
even
get
their
arms
around
this.
B
This
debt
is
that,
unlike
consumer
loans,
car
loans,
sorts
of
things
are
unlike
mortgage
loans,
worst
case
scenario:
you
can
file
bankruptcy,
it
goes
away,
the
bank
comes,
they
take
your
house,
they
take
your
car,
but
then
seven
years
go
by
or
whatever,
and
then
you
start
over.
It's
bad,
it's
nasty,
but
it
it.
You
can
start
you
get
no
do
over
here
and
it
doesn't.
A
B
And
the
other
challenge
that
I
bet
it's
really
hard.
My
big
campaign
is
awareness.
It's
like
there
are.
There
are
other
people
like
Korean
who
are
doing
really
really
good
work
to
help
people
see
a
lot
of
the
the
severity
of
a
lot
of
these
issues,
and
so
I
I'm
really
choosing
my
campaign
to
be
about
awareness.
B
You
know
Uncle
Bob
lens
you
five
thousand
dollars,
but
what
I'm
hearing
more
and
more
and
even
a
couple
of
weeks
ago?
This
is-
and
this
is
how
it
works
on
somebody
who
I
was
talking
to
said.
Oh
yes,
my
mother's
friend,
my
elderly
mother's
friend,
has
a
neighbor
whose
daughter
isn't
in
college.
She
needed
ten
thousand
dollars,
and
so
the
other
elderly
woman
said.
Oh
she's
I
met
her
once
she
seems
like
a
sweet
girl.
I'll
lend
it
to
her.
B
So
they
draw
up
papers
and
there
goes
the
ten
thousand
dollars,
and
maybe
that's
an
awesome,
wonderful
kind
thing
to
do,
but
from
me
and
the
thing
that
makes
the
big
red
flag
for
me
is
that
is
not
addressing
the
initial
issue
about.
Is
that
ten
thousand
dollars
of
value
for
this
school
and
for
weather.
A
Yeah
there's
the
whole
like:
will
it
pay
off?
There's
also
the
ease
in
which
the
the
ease
in
which
people
are
able
I
mean
to
get
into
this
type
of
debt.
The
the
financial,
the
financial
industry,
the
banks
and
the
government
isn't
doing
the
kind
of
analysis
where
they
would
say:
I'm.
Sorry
yeah,
you
might
call
it
you
you're
not
qualified
for
it.
Instead
they're
like
okay,
go
for
it,
you
want
a
major
in
basket,
weaving
or
take
out
a
hundred
thousand
dollar
loan
to
study.
A
Now,
I
love
this
subject,
you
know
ancient
Javanese,
literature,
okay
of
which
there
are
no
jobs
character
to
it.
Ok
sure
will
lend
you
a
hundred
thousand
dollars
to
do
that,
because
we
know
that
you
we
now
own
you,
okay,
we
now
own
all
of
the
work
ray
interest
payments
that
you
are
going
to
have
to
extract
and
we'll
get
it
from
you
one
way
or
another.
That's
the
for
me!
A
That's
the
sick
thing
with
this,
because
those
instruments
aren't
designed
to
create
capital
to
liberate
you
they're
designed
and
especially
the
lack
of
transparency
that
you
point
out
to
in
terms
of
how
the
college
financial
aid
officers
are
operating.
Okay,
they're
not
telling
you
that
the
true
cost
of
servicing
that
debt
over
time
there.
Even
in
your
in
your
book,
you
talk
about
the
letters
that
people
get
when
they
receive
financial
aid.
Awards,
my
god,
I
mean
like
you
know:
I
haven't
received
one
okay,
but
they
I
don't
know
I!
A
Think
that's
like
blatant
dishonesty.
Dare
you
give
me
no
arm
real
picture
as
to
what
the
financial
aid
award
is
going
to
be
for
what
the
or
or
what
the
student
is
going
to
actually
end
up
having
to
pay
so
people
like,
say:
oh
I,
got
into
uvm
I
got
into
a
HIPAA
theme:
Addison
Wisconsin,
oh
I
got
India,
oh
I'll
sign
on
the
dotted
line.
Yeah
I
got
in
yay
yeah.
A
B
Used
to
work
and
families
were
proud
and
everybody
was
happy
and
they
thought
they'd
live
happily
ever
after
and
I
just
have
to
have
to
add.
I
actually
feel
sorry
for
many
many
many
financial
aid
officers
because
and
I
don't
know
the
law.
This
is
something
I
have
not
looked
up,
but
I
know
that
their
hands
are
tied
about
a
lot
of
the
things
they
can
say.
B
It
wasn't.
It
wasn't
as
strong
as
a
Masters
in
Social
Work.
It
would
some
Masters
in
Social
Oregon
is
it
was
a
you
know,
three
steps
above
basket
weaving.
It
was
something
that
maybe
that
teenies
tiniest
there
was
a
small
possibility
that
she'd
be
employed,
but
not
with
200,
and
then
this
financial
aid
officer
said
gee
for
her
to
get
through
this
program.
At
the
same
run
rate
for
money
that
she
had
been
using,
she
would
end
up
with
at
least
two
hundred
and
fifty
thousand
dollars
in
debt
doctors.
B
Medical
doctors
are
having
a
hard
time
paying
back
that
kind
of
a
debt.
If
you're
looking
at
a
job
that
you
may
or
may
not
get,
and
if
you
get
it,
it
pays
thirty
thousand
dollars
a
year.
You'll
never
pay
that
back
and
the
financial
aid
officer
by
law.
My
understanding
is
that
she
couldn't
say
you
can't
do
this.
She
couldn't
prevent
that
and
I've
heard
that
from
quite
a
few
people.
So
that's
something
I
need
to
look
up,
but
yeah.
A
I've
heard
that
I've
heard
that
same
thing
a
little
bit
about
you
know,
you
can't
say
you're
not
going
to
pay
that
back,
but
it's
interesting
that
that
law
gets
drawn
up
and
created.
To
actually
do
I
mean
this
is
where
I.
This
is
where
I
have
to
say
that
the
system
is
almost
designed
to
get
people
into
into
debt.
Servitude
and
and
indentured
servants
had
a
better
deal.
B
B
It's
a
curse.
It's
worse!
Yes,
in
fact,
a
lot
of
the
the
data,
sometimes
when
I
looked
at
so
much
data
in
the
last
15
years,
10-15
years
that
that
I
tend
to
notice
when
I
see
something
that
looks
a
little
odd
and
so
then
I
dig
in
to
try
to
figure
out.
What's
going
on
and
one
of
the
things
that
I
discovered
a
couple
of
years
ago.
B
Is
that
a
lot
of
the
data
that's
being
put
out
by
really
reputable
sources
on
that
will
say
the
average
average
student
loan
payment
is
whatever
for
an
undergraduate
degree.
That's
used
to
be
based
on
10-year
repayment.
Now
it's
based
on
20-year
repayment
so
but
then
less
a
family
knows
to
ask
our
nose
to
check
out
to
do
the
math
themselves
and
there
are
all
sorts
of
their
places
that
you
can
go
and
do
that
just
like
that
on.
But
unless
you
know
to
even
ask
the
question
on,
you
can
get
yourself
in
trouble.
B
Really
fast.
I
did
an
interesting
calculation.
I
wasn't
planning
on
it
for
today,
but
I
was
at
work,
doing
something
else
on
and
I
thought
I'm
going
to
check
on
some
math
and
I
discovered
one
of
my
favorite
sites
that
I
like
is
fin
aid
or
finite
fi
naid.
It
was
started
by
Mark
Kantrowitz,
who
also
felt
very
passionate
about
transparency
a
number
of
years
ago.
He
has
moved
on,
but
it's
like
the
ultimate
nonprofit
place
to
find
out
a
lot
of
good
information
and
their
calculators
on
there,
and
they
now
have
a
calculator.
B
B
What's
going
on
the
income
based
repayment,
it
used
to
be
in
contingent
income
contingent
payment,
but
their
repay
program
and
those
are
all
being
held
up,
as
aren't
these
wonderful
programs
because
you're
alone,
and
then
it
goes
back
to
the
monthly
payment.
It
reduces
your
monthly
payment.
So
much
yeah.
A
It
don't,
though,
some
you
know,
I
find
that
whole
idea
of
taking
permanent,
like
someone's
wages,
part
of
their
wages,
okay
and
you
can
call
it
voluntary,
but
for
a
lot
of
people,
it's
involuntary
it
just
is
it's
surf
them
I
mean
I
I.
You
know
I
I'm,
using
these
words
deliberately
based
on
the
definitions.
Okay,
is
it
is
making
people
into
back
into
surfs
it's
making
them
even
it's
an
involuntary
taking
you
of
a
person's
labor
that
they
can
never
get
out
of
okay,
which
is,
by
its
very
definition,
a
type
of
slavery.
A
According
to
you
know
you
just
look
at
the
Wikipedia,
you
look
at
most
definitions
of
slavery,
which
is
involuntary
taking
of
someone's
labor
and
something
that
you
can
never
get
out
of,
and
that
is
passed
down
to
your
children,
okay
and
isn't
this,
and
if
the
loans
aren't
paid
off
your
estate
gets
hit
with
them.
Have
you
come
across
any
cases
where
actually,
the
children
of
people
who
are
who
have
taken
out
student
loans
are
actually
liable
for
the
payment
of
groceries?
No.
B
I
have
I
have
not
come
across
that,
but
you're
right
if
somebody
dies
and
there's
there
are
student
loans.
Actually,
if
there
are
federal
loans,
the
federal
loans
do
go
away
and
death
so
that
the
one
federal
loans
do
private
loans.
Don't
necessarily
some
banks
are
starting
to
sometimes
but
but
federal
loans
do
what
I'm
seeing
more?
Is
that
actually
the
well
two
things
the
on
the
on
the
opposite
side
is
grandparents
co-signing
yeah.
B
Yeah
so,
for
example,
in
2013
35,000
senior
citizens
had
their
social
security
checks
garnished
because
of
either
loans
they
had
co-signed
for
or
their
own
loans.
Maybe
they
gone
back
to
school
in
their
50s,
and
now
they
had
all
of
this
debt,
but
anyway,
so
there's
there's
that
end
of
it.
But
this
I
think
that
that
what
you
were
saying
about
the
surf,
thumb
and
involuntary
taking
it,
and
all
of
that
would
be
right
on
the
only
the
difference
that
I
see.
The
main
difference.
B
B
A
Really
recommend
that
everybody
by
the
book,
our
plan,
okay,
arm
because
that
book,
if
you
fill
out
on
the,
if
you
follow
the
advice
and
the
methodology
in
the
book
that
Laura
is
talking
about
you'll,
be
making
decisions
about
them.
One
of
the
most
important
investments
that
you'll
ever
make
in
your
life
and
one
that
has
consequences
for
you,
your
children,
your
grandchildren,
okay,
you'll,
be
making
it
with
your
eyes
wide
open
and
you'll
make
a
really
a
much
much
better
decision
and.
B
B
But
at
the
same
time,
some
of
the
students
who
I've
known
that
have
gone
to
these
places
are
are
people
who,
on
for
one
reason
or
another,
could
not
get
in
to
a
regular
regular
college,
whether
they're,
an
international
student
whose
English
wasn't
good
enough
for
a
typical
college,
or
maybe
there's
somebody
that
has
on
a
criminal
record
that
just
was
not,
could
not
get
them
in
two
and
they
they're
trying
to
take
to
get
back.
Get
their
life
back
on
track.
I've
seen
a
number
of
people
who
have
been
able
to
take
these?
B
What
I
think
it
was
a
really
horrible
college,
but
they've
been
able
to
use
them
as
a
place
to
start
and
then
sort
of
get
some
basics
and
then
move
into
someplace
else
and
move
on.
So
I
really
believe
that
every
school
is
the
right
school
for
somebody,
but
the
important
thing
is
to
make
sure
that
the
place
that
you're
going
is
the
right
place
for
you
and
for
that
life
that
you
want.
On
the
on
the
other
side,
Laura.
A
And
I,
and
maybe
we've
hit
the
overshoot
part,
hopefully
and
soon,
we'll
hit
the
collapse
arm.
What
do
you
think
is
going
to
what's
that?
What
are
the
catalysts
that
are
going
to
that
from
what
are
the
catalysts
that
are
going
to
lead
to
sort
of
the
collapse
of
you
know,
traditional
high
read
the
way
we've
been
financing
it
on
and
the
collapse
of
the
system,
because
your
book
points
out.
A
There
are
so
many
different
industries
that
are
dependent
upon
this
debt,
this
cheap
capital,
there's
the
financial
industry,
okay,
here's
actually
the
construction
companies
that
build
all
of
these
huge
beautiful
facilities,
they're
also
the
arm
tenured
faculty,
who
are
teaching
not
a
whole
lot
of
classes,
but
yet
making
you
know
six-figure
salaries
or
you
know
high
five.
You
know,
six-figure
salaries
is
the
administrative
bloat.
Okay.
What
do
you
see
things
collapsing?
Do
you
see
breaking
points
starting
to
happen,
or
is
it
just
going
to
continue
until
people?
B
B
If
they
had
an
emergency
today,
they
would
not
have
access
to
four
hundred
dollars
on
and
the
the
author
was
somebody
who
is
I
think
he's
a
senior
editor
for
the
magazine
and
was
talking
about
how
he
himself,
as
somebody
who
is
in
this
situation,
even
though
he
and
his
family
from
the
outside
looked
like
their
upper
middle
class
and
all
of
this
and
part
of
what
he
was
talking
about.
Was
the
student
loan
crisis
that
so
many
folks
have
taken
out
on
middle
class.
B
Upper
middle
class
folks
have
on
not
only
have
this
huge
debt
there,
but
have
bought
the
extra
cars
or
bought
the
Bentley's
are
maybe
not
the
Bentley's
but
the
expensive
cars
and
the
expensive
houses
in
the
suburbs,
and
it's
a
completely
different
lifestyle
on
that
they've
kind
of
built
in
to
grown
into
under
this
same
sort
of
thought
that
it's
not
about.
Do
I
have
the
cash
to
buy
this,
but
can
I
afford
the
monthly
payment
for
this
without
thinking?
B
Changer
really
soon
is,
as
so,
many
folks
that
have
this
huge
student
debt
now
have
kids
who
are
starting
to
get
to
the
college
age
and
the
parents.
Can't
parents
have
nothing
to
help
the
kids
out,
but
because
the
parents
have
decent
jobs,
many
of
them
have
have
really
good
jobs.
They
aren't
going
to
qualify
for
so
much
need
based
aid,
but
they've
got
their
own
student
debt.
B
I
can't
tell
you
how
many
people
I
know
we're
between
the
two
parents:
they'll
have
1200
1500
dollars
in
student
loan
payments
a
month
and
a
lot
of
times.
That's
on
some
income
based
or
income
contingent
repayment,
it's
just
that
they
have
grown
in
their
careers
to
be
making
so
much
money
that
now
their
payment
is
also
higher,
but
at
the
same
time,
with
your
kids
they're,
not
they're,
not
going
to
be
able
to
pay
for
them
to
go
to
college.
B
A
I
would
add
in
you
know:
people
who've
heard
these
interviews.
I've
heard
me
say
it
before
a
lot
of
different
times,
I
think
once
the
we
have
the
big
Treasury
bond
debt
crisis
in
the
international
markets
and
interest
rates
rise,
you
know
to
you
know:
ten
percent
I
mean
you
have
a
collapse
in
the
value
of
the
dollar
because
of
this
debt.
A
C
A
You
know
you
see
now
that
the
you
know
the
like
you
point
out
and
crinoline
it
out
along
with
lots
of
other
authors,
is
the
Department
of
Education
makes
a
tremendous
amount
of
money
for
their
budget
off
of
student
loan
debt,
and
you
know
JP
Morgan,
the
May
one
of
the
main
servicers
makes
a
tremendous
amount
of
money.
You
mentioned
student
loans
in
your
book.
Are
it's
the
third
biggest
company
on
the
planet,
ExxonMobil
and
Apple
yeah
and
student
loan
Sallie
Mae
Freddie
may
in
the
privates?
A
That's
the
that's
where
the
economic
value
is
and
when
those,
when
those
interest
rates
rise,
there's
no
way
that
people
are
going
to
be
able
to
afford
those
types
of
payment
plans
and
those
types
of
yeah,
those
monthly
payment
plan.
It's
going
to
be
impossible
and
that's
when
I
think
you'll
see
the
collapse
of
the
system
and
I'm
hoping
it
comes
sooner
rather
than
later.
B
And
I
think
one
of
the
challenges
is:
if
there
are
the
programs
like
the
income-based,
then
if
the
interest
is
going
up,
but
if
your
payment
is
based
on
your
your
income
on
and
I
think
it's
like
ten
or
fifteen
percent,
depending
on
the
program
of
your
discretionary
income,
that
oftentimes
is
defined
as
one
hundred
and
fifty
percent
of
the
poverty
guidelines
for
your
family
size,
but
whatever,
then
that
pain
isn't
going
to
be
there.
But
what
people
don't
realize?
B
There's
everybody
sort
of
understands,
there's
a
little
bit
of
interest,
but
with
these
long
term
payments
if
you've
got
a
thirty
thousand
dollar
student
loan
and
you
pay
it
over
ten
years.
You
pay
this
much
interest,
but
if
it's
spread
out
over
20
or
25
years
here
now
paying
every
year
interest
on
the
interest
or
your.
A
Entire
lifetime,
you
know
up
until
you
retire
because
income
income
pieces,
yeah
Adam,
and
it
will
be
interesting
it'll.
It
really
will
create
a
society
of
to
dramatically
of
two
different
classes
of
people
there.
The
indentured
I
mean
fifteen
percent
was
the
rate
in
which
I
think
you
had
to
give
your
feudal
lord.
On
the
the
harvest
of
your
fields,
oh
wow,
that
they're,
you
know
if
you
go
back
to
you
know
medieval
times,
or
even
you
know
the
the
japanese
system,
where
there
were
so
many,
I
think,
was
koq
of
rice.
A
B
A
B
I
think
one
of
the
challenges
that
we're
going
to
see
through
one
of
the
big
things
are
going
to
see
is
we
really
need
the
entrepreneurs
to
be
bringing
the
economy
back
and
there
are
all
sorts
of
that's
one
of
the
it
seems
to
be.
This
is
totally
informal,
but
this
is,
there
seems
entrepreneurial
management.
Major
seem
to
be
one
of
the
hot
majors
and
the
hot
areas
to
study
and
I.
B
Think
it's
because
we
really
need
entrepreneurs,
but
entrepreneurs
need
capital
and
they
need
the
ability
to
have
lean
years
while
they're
developing,
but
if
you're
you
and
your
parents
and
your
grandparents
and
everybody
else,
let's
put
all
of
the
money
into
this,
there's
nothing
left
for
that.
Most.
A
Most
owned
companies
get
created
initially
through
capital
with
friends
and
family
and
I
know
that
you
know
II
a
player
know
to
talk
about
my
own
personal
story.
The
only
way
that
we're
able
to
you
know
we've
got
a
lot
of
stamina
as
we
build
as
we
try
to
gain
traction.
The
only
way
we've
been
able
to
do
that
is
the
fact
that
arm
you
know
our
run
rate
is
so
low.
You
know,
Daniels
got
some.
C
A
Of
you
know
some
good
management
and
some
luck
and
that
family
can
put
in
some
money
to
invest
in
the
potential
of
what
a
play.
No
can
do.
Not
everyone
has
that
opportunity,
so
you
find
actually,
then
that
the
wealth
producers
come
from
the
same
groups
that
have
always
had
the
benefit
of
being
involved
in
the
entrepreneurial
piece.
A
You
know:
white
European,
arm
upper
middle
class
individuals,
rather
than
an
entrepreneurial
piece
which
creates
value
being
equally
distributed
amongst
everyone,
immigrants,
etc,
and-
and
if
we
go
to
that,
you
know
percentage
based
debt
service,
it's
going
to
be
even
worse.
We're
just
a
thin
sliver
of
people
will
be
able
to
create
the
new
companies
and
develop
the
new
products,
and
we
need
everybody
to
be
doing
that.
Not
just
the
people
who
lucked
out
to
be
born
into
a
family
of
people
who
didn't
have
a
lot
of
debt.
Yeah.
B
I
talked
last
last
year,
I
talked
very
briefly
to
a
gentleman
named
John
hope.
Brian
who's
done
a
ton,
particularly
in
the
african-american
community,
but
in
other
underrepresented
communities,
also
on
with
kids
and
money
and
the
whole
financial
literacy
thing,
and
one
of
the
things
that
he
talks
about
is
initially
it's
not
about
figuring
out
how
much
more
and
I'm
no
I'm
going
to
misquote.
But
it's
not
about
how
much
more
money
you
can
make,
but
initially
it's
about
making
better
choices,
making
better
decisions
with
what
you
have.
B
That,
then
will
lead
to
this
and
he's
got
camps
and
summer
programs
and
all
sorts
of
in
the
school
programs
called
one
is
called
entrepreneur
in
a
box.
But
it's
all
about
helping
people
helping
kids,
learn
basic
financial
literacy
so
that
they
can
make
good
choices
and
become
entrepreneurs,
because,
as
for
so
much
of
the
the
opportunity
is
another
thing
that
that
I
thought
was
really
interesting.
B
I,
just
came
back
from
a
conference
in
DC
I've,
been
in
an
education
policy
fellowship
program
for
the
last
year,
and
there
was
a-there
17
states
that
are
involved
in
that.
We
all
came
together
in
Washington
DC
a
couple
of
weeks
ago,
and
one
of
the
presentations
that
I
heard
was
from
an
African
American
Dean
of
a
community
college
and
I
forget
what
stage
he
was
just
incredible
and
she
said
one
of
the
challenges
that
they're
having
that
she's.
B
Having
that
she
sees
in
that
community
is
that
folks
that
have
been
kind
of
on
the
outside
for
so
long
on,
see
that
the
the
small
private,
liberal
arts
colleges
and
the
name
universities.
If
you
go
there,
then
you've
made
it
and
so
they're
taking
out
more
debt,
then
they
might
need
to
if
they,
rather
than
coming
to
a
community
college
for
a
couple
of
years
and
then
moving
to
those
the
the
small
liberal
arts
college
and
graduating
with
that
name.
B
A
B
A
And
now
the
interesting
thing
I
think
is
that
those
same
tactics
and
strategies
are
now
being
used
on
everybody,
okay,
come
and,
and
that
and
through
that
student
loan.
You
know
part
of
that
is
through
that
student
loan
piece
and
you
know
I'm,
not
a
Marxist,
but
the
Marx's
critique
of
how
you
know
to
certain
classes.
A
Take
from
from
the
working
class
from
the
proletariat
well
Carl
was
right:
okay,
there's
some
really
insidious
stuff
going
on
that
prevents
us
from
prevents
people
from
accumulating
capital,
forming
businesses
taking
chances
being
in
control
of
their
own
lives,
and
instead,
you've
got
to
make
these
monthly
payments
on
for
an
education.
That
was,
you
know
not
that
great
to
begin
with,
and
your
book,
though,
is
a
great
antidote
to
avoiding
that
trap.
So
you
know,
we've
talked
a
little
bit
over
for
an
hour.
Anything
else.
B
Think
I
guess
that
the
last
thing
that
I'd
like
to
say
is
that
when
people
some
might
people
will
ask
me
what
I
think
is
a
comfortable
amount
of
debt
or
a
safe
amount
of
debt
and
what
I
say
is,
for
an
undergraduate
degree
for
an
undergraduate
degree
at
a
quality.
School
and
I
mean
a
quality
school
and
there
are
ways
to
define
it,
but
really
at
a
decent
school
for
an
undergraduate
degree
on
between
30
and
35
thousand
you'll.
Be
okay.
B
If
you
stick
on
a
10-year
payment
plan,
that's
about
that
about
three
hundred
and
twenty
dollars
a
month.
It's
you
know
a
car
payment,
it's
doable
and
the
reason
one
of
the
reasons
that
I
say
the
thirty
to
thirty-five
thousand
is
because
you
can
get
federal
loans,
which
then
do
have
different
programs.
They
can.
If
you
have
problems
with
money
or
something
happens,
you
can
get
them
deferred.
You
can.
There
are
different
programs,
also,
the
federal
loan,
the
federal
loans
qualify
for
like
the
Federals,
the
public
service
loan
forgiveness
programs.
B
They
qualify
for
a
whole
lot
of
different
things,
and
that's
about
the
maximum
that
you
can
take
once
you
go
over
that
amount.
It
means
you're,
probably
taking
out
private
loans
and
that's
where
things
get
really
really
really
tricky
on
and
I.
Just
think
that
if
people
can,
when
they
swen,
you
start
out
just
know
what
you
want
the
college
to
do
for
you,
what
you
want
that
degree
to
do
for
you
and
identify
how
much
debt
just
a
ballpark.
What
works
for
you
on
to
me.
B
B
Just
read
recently
that
Indiana
University
has
seen
a
significant
drop
in
the
amount
of
money
that's
borrowed
since
they
have
started
a
program
where,
once
a
year,
they
send
students
a
letter
that
says
this
is
how
much
you
borrowed
already,
and
this
would
be
the
monthly
payments
on
these
loans,
and
just
that
awareness
piece
is
help
is
helping
their
students
go.
Oh,
maybe
I
want
to
do
something
different,
maybe
I
want
to
work
more.
A
Well,
you
know
again
everybody
go
out
and
buy
the
book.
Okay,
we
have
a
link
right
here
to
the
book
and
it's
make
sure
you
buy
it
from
amazon
com.
Don't
google
it?
Okay,
it's
our
plan,
a
family-centered
approach
to
paying
for
college
it's
on
amazon
com,
please
buy
it
work
through
the
workbook
and
all
of
the
different
calculations
in
that
and
really
follow
dr.
Gilbert's
plan.
She
outlined
it
really
really.
A
Clearly
anyone
can
do
it,
whether
it's
your
entire
family
or
whether
it's
a
single
individual
who
is
trying
to
put
themselves
through
college
or
whether
you're
a
non-traditional
student
you're
thinking
about
going
back.
Anyone
can
follow
that
because
you
really
have
to
avoid
debt
as
much
as
possible
and
get
the
smallest
of
debt
for
the
greatest
amount
of
return
that
you're
going
to
receive,
which
is
called
ROI
return
on
the
investment,
and
that
is
important
in
education,
because
you
can't
go
through
life
with
a
250
thousand
dollars
of
debt.
That
is
not
dischargeable.
A
That
will
that
that
is
permanent,
and
that
makes
you
less
than
a
totally
changes.
Your
opportunities
on
to
a
business
I
home
have
a
good
marriage.
All
right
start
a
family,
all
those
different
things.
So
dr.
Gilbert.
Thank
you
very
much
for
spending
time
with
us
and
I
really
appreciate
all
your
knowledge
with
this
and
we'll
get
in
touch
as
soon
because
to
get
an
update
on
how
the
book
is
doing
great.
A
C
It
is
taking
a
look
at
you,
know:
student
loan
debt
in
some
relationship
to
financial
aid
and
how
financially
gets
calculated.
Okay,
the
calculation
that
was
young
people,
for
whom
the
whole
deal
that
they've
been
offered
just,
doesn't
seem
to
be
there
anymore.
Is
this
idea
of
collective,
revolting.