►
Description
The Committee on Finance of the Council of the City of Philadelphia held a Public Hearing on Wednesday, March 16, 2016, to hear testimony on the following item:
No. 160047
A resolution authorizing a full and comprehensive investigatory public hearing by the Council's Committee on Finance on the impact reverse mortgage lending products are having on residents in the City of Philadelphia. Specifically, the public hearings will seek to determine the extent and impact such lending products have on the City's senior citizen homeowners, and the potential intergovernmental remedies that can be developed to protect consumers from any unintentional
harms that may result from acquiring this type of lending product.
www.phlcouncil.com
A
A
C
Thank
you
so
very
much,
madam
chair.
Let
me
start
by
just
thanking
our
finance
committee
chairwoman,
councilwoman
blondel,
reynold,
councilwoman,
janie
blackwell,
and
also
thank
all
members
of
the
committee
who
who
are
present
and
those
who
are
in
root
and
or
on
their
way.
Today's
fact-finding
hearing
will
look
at
the
impact
reverse
mortgage
products
are
having
on
philadelphia
senior
citizens,
and
I
want
to
emphasize
that
we
are
concerned
here
with
gathering
the
facts
necessary
for
us
to
take
appropriate
action.
C
With
this
in
mind,
I
also
want
to
acknowledge
our
many
federal
and
state
government
stakeholders
who
have
accepted
our
invitation
to
witness
today's
public
hearing.
These
stakeholders
have
agreed
to
partner
with
philadelphia
city
council
to
explore
intergovernmental
solutions
to
the
problems
we
will
hear
about
at
today's
hearing.
Now
there
are
many
of
you
in
this
room
who
this
is
really
like
a
reunion
for
us,
because
we
were
together
in
2001
at
that
time.
C
I
wasn't
sitting
here,
but
I
was
sitting
in
the
seats
that
you're
sitting
in
right
now,
cheryl
as
a
staffer
for
councilwoman
marion
tasco.
When
we
worked
on
the
issue
of
predatory
lending
and
if
you'll
remember
after
all
of
that
work,
our
bill
was
immediately
preempted
at
another
level
of
government
and
we
said,
had
we
started
with
our
federal
and
state
government
partners
with
us
in
the
beginning.
Maybe
we
could
have
found
a
way
around
that.
C
Thank
you,
because
you're
going
to
give
us
our
tutorial
on
what
exactly
reverse
mortgages
are,
how
they
work
and
who
is
an
ideal
borrower.
You're
also
going
to
review
for
us.
The
findings
of
a
series
of
reports
published
by
very
importantly,
the
consumer
financial
protection
bureau,
which
is
the
federal
agency
that
regulates
the
reverse
mortgage
industry.
C
My
interest
in
this
issue
was
generated
as
a
result
of
reading
a
report
that
was
produced
by
the
reinvestment
fund
on
this
issue,
and
it
showed
an
alarming
increase
in
mortgage
foreclosures,
specifically
relating
to
reverse
mortgage
products.
On
our
third
and
fourth
panels
will
feature
two
of
our
city's
premier
legal
services
programs
who
have
been
out
front,
helping
seniors
to
stop
reverse
mortgage
foreclosures,
and
that
is
the
senior
law
project
and
community
legal
services.
C
And
if
I
said
that
incorrectly
she's
going
to
correct
me
when
she
gets
to
the
table
and
identifies
herself
and
finally
we're
going
to
hear
from
our
deputy
director
of
housing
at
ohc
who's,
a
long
term
friend
and
from
our
city
council's
director
of
civic
engagement.
So
I
want
to
again
thank
my
deep
appreci.
Give
you
my
deep
appreciation
and
thank
you
all
for
participating
in
today's
hearing.
Thank
you
very
much,
madam
chair.
A
Thank
you.
We
thank
councilwoman
parker
for
all
the
work
that
she's
done
on
this
hearing
and
all
those
she
has
certainly
invited,
and
all
of
you
who
have
come.
We
also
note
that
councilman
mark
squill
is
here
as
his
councilman
david
o.
So
thank
you
very
much
and
we
are
now
to
begin
with
the
clerk.
Please
read
the
people,
the
names
of
those
from
our
first.
A
A
D
Good
morning,
everyone,
my
name,
is
anita
brown
and
I'm
the
chief
operating
officer
at
clarify,
we're
a
non-profit
home
ownership
and
credit
counseling
agency
in
the
city
of
philadelphia
and
the
surrounding
counties.
We
have
been
working
with
homeowners
since
1966.
This
is
our
50th
anniversary
year.
E
D
Have
that
that's
fine,
but
whatever
works
for
you,
so
the
the
home
equity
conversion
mortgage
heck
is
known
in
the
industry
is:
is
a
government
insured
product
but
prior
to
that
in
1961?
The
very
first
reverse
mortgage
was
made
through
a
savings
and
loan
up
in
maine,
but
through
the
years
into
the
80s,
the
product
was
developed
and
then
in
1988
hud
provided
the
authority
to
ensure
reverse
mortgages,
and
that's
when
ronald
reagan
signed
the
bill
into
law.
The
first
loan
was
closed
with
federal
insurance
in
1989
through
the
years
into
1997.
D
D
Some
rules,
some
additional
rules
were
put
in
place
regarding
you
know,
limits
on
fees,
cross
sales
of
investment
products
and,
at
that
point,
in
time,
independent
counseling
became
required.
So
when
a
mortgage
broker
is
working
with
a
homeowner
previously,
they
would
refer
them
to
one
counseling
agency
and
at
that
point
in
time
the
rules
went
into
place
to
to
make
it
mandatory
to
provide
the
homeowner
with
options
national
agencies,
as
well
as
local
agencies.
D
So
what
does
a
reverse
mortgage?
Do
it
basically
gives
the
homeowner
the
ability
to
draw
equity?
Those
are
to
meet
their
monthly
income
needs
to.
You
know,
pay
for
expenses
that
are
day-to-day
as
well
as
to
meet
the
needs
of
home
repairs
and
maintenance,
and
also
one
of
the
initial
reasons
was
to
pay
for
medical
expenses.
D
All
right,
thank
you
and
I've
skipped
one
there
sure.
Maybe
my
slides
are
out
of
water.
Okay,
so,
in
order
to
qualify
for
a
a
home
equity
conversion
mortgage,
a
reverse
mortgage
at
least
one
of
the
homeowners
needs
to
be
62
or
older.
It
must
be
a
home,
that's
owned
and
is
the
primary
residence
and
there
needs
to
be
sufficient
equity
in
the
property
to
borrow
against.
D
D
So,
as
far
as
advantages
of
the
loan
qualifying
is
so
there
well
recently,
there's
been
implementations
of
of
credit
review
and
a
financial
assessment.
It's
not
the
same
as
a
forward
mortgage,
so
there's
no
debt
to
income
ratios
that
are
assessed
or
reviewed
so
obtaining
the
mortgage
without
that
traditional
mortgage
qualification,
no
monthly
mortgage
payment.
So
you
have
access
to
the
equity
in
your
home.
D
So
some
of
the
considerations
that
need
to
be
taken
into
to
play
when
taking
out
a
reverse
mortgage
is
there
is
a
high.
There
are
high
up
front
costs
to
this
loan
insurance
premiums
that
are
paid
to
the
lender
to
protect
the
lender,
so
the
fha
insurance
is
actually
protect,
protecting
the
lender
from
taking
the
loss
in
the
case
of
that
ten-year
payment
that
could
possibly
happen
or
also
in
the
case,
what's
happening
today
in
a
lot
of
cases
where
the
taxes
and
insurance
are
not
being
paid
and
the
lender
is
advancing.
D
D
D
D
D
The
other
issue
is
that
you
know,
as
I
spoken
earlier,
this
lifestyle
improvement
as
part
of
this
product
is
being
sold,
and
previously
borrowers
were
taking
out
this
loan
and
it
was
initially
intended
to
as
an
aging
in
place
program,
but
then
it's
it
evolved
into.
You
know
that
you
can
use
it
for
different
things.
D
D
In
the
misleading
advertising
that
was
part
of
a
part
of
the
study
indicated
that
people
really
don't
understand
what
the
advertising
is
saying.
So,
the
the
term,
a
government-backed
loan
is
very
confusing
to
a
lot
of
homeowners.
They
believe
that
this
is
a
government
program
that
they're
entitled
to
something
for
free.
The
stay
in
your
home
piece.
Often
confused
confuses
homeowners.
They
don't
understand
that
there
that
there
is
a
possibility
that
that
they
might
have
to
leave
the
home.
D
D
So
the
other
piece
of
the
requirement
is
counseling,
so
homeowners
must
receive
counseling
before
an
application
is
submitted.
It
doesn't
mean
that
they
haven't
completed
an
application.
It
just
means
that
they
have
to
have
a
certificate
saying
they've
been
counseled
prior
to
that
application
being
sent
to
underwriting.
D
D
Changed
another
risk
is
some
of
the
scams
that
happen
within
this
market
and
I
believe
beth
from
senior
law
center
will
speak
to
some
of
that,
but
something
that
happened
in
the
past,
that
is,
that
has
to
be
part
of
the
counseling
process.
Now
is
investment
brokers
trying
to
help
have
homeowners
tap
into
their
home
equity,
to
then
put
that
money
into
the
investment
market?
D
So
there
have
been
cases
where
individuals
have
done
that
and
then
you
know
we
see
the
ups
and
downs
of
the
market.
So
then
we
know
what
what
happens
to
the
funds
of
that
individual.
Now
they
have
absolutely
nothing
another
case,
something
that
that
needs
to
be
improved
is
when
the
when
the
borrower
does
pass
away
and
the
home
is
left.
D
D
One
of
the
things
that
we
are
now
experimenting
with
that
clarify
is
the
cfpb
has
just
developed
an
infographic
brochure
that
we
are
sending
out
to
all
of
our
reverse
mortgage
clients
that,
when
they're
having
difficulty
understanding
a
concept
providing
them
with
this
infographic
to
help
them
through
that
process
and
that's
just
underway.
So
we
don't
have
any
results
for
that.
E
E
There's
a
debt,
that's
building
up
on
the
loan
balance
which,
at
the
end
of
the
loan,
is
going
to
need
to
be
paid.
Some
of
the
concerns
that
that
homeowners
run
into
are
just
not
being
properly
informed
prior
to
their
counseling
as
to
exactly
what
the
loan
is.
There
is
the
impression
that
it
is
a
government-issued
loan
and
that
the
money
is
not
going
to
get
paid
back
that
just
not
a
complete
understanding
of
how
the
loan
works.
E
The
the
ideal
homeowner
has
a
strong
commitment
to
the
understanding
of
the
process.
They
counseling's
not
just
a
check
box.
They
actually
had
done
some
research
prior
to
looking
prior
to
getting
the
reverse
mortgage
they've,
considered
other
options,
they've
taken
an
interest
and
and
committed
themselves
to
understanding
how
the
loan
works
and
what
the
the
impact
of
that
is
going
to
be.
E
The
sufficient
equity
in
the
home.
When
the
reverse
mortgage
is
taken
out,
only
a
portion
of
the
equity
is
available
to
be
borrowed.
A
good
portion
of
the
equity
is
left
in
reserves
to
counteract
the
fact
that
the
loan
balance
is
going
up
over
time,
and
so,
if
you
have
a
hundred
thousand
dollar
house,
for
example,
you
may
only
be
able
to
borrow
45
or
50
000
of
that
equity
and
the
rest
of
it
is
stays
in
remains
in
reserve.
For
the
the
increasing
balance
over
time.
E
E
G
Thank
you,
chairwoman.
Blackwell.
Thank
you
for
your
testimony
today.
Let's
have
a
question
for
you.
It
seems
to
me
the
problem
with
reverse
mortgages.
Is
that
people
getting
a
chunk
of
money
that
they
don't
always
know
how
to
invest
wisely
right.
If
is
there
a
reverse
mortgage
that
if
I
owned
a
home
for
a
hundred
thousand
dollars
of
value-
and
I
had
a
thirty
thousand
dollar
or
twenty
thousand
dollar
loan
that
I
could
get
a
reverse
mortgage,
that
would
just
allow
me
not
to
pay
the
payments,
but
not
get
any
cash
up
front.
E
Yes,
you
can
use
the
reverse
mortgage
just
to
refinance
an
existing
mortgage
to
eliminate
the
monthly
mortgage
payments,
the
other
payment
options
that
are
also
available.
You
don't
have
to
take
the
money
as
a
lump
sum
amount.
Yeah.
The
borrower
has
the
option
to
take
it
as
a
line
of
credit
and
just
kind
of
use
it
as
they
need
it,
or
they
also
have
the
choice
to
get
monthly
payments
which
could
just
supplement
their
income
for
the
rest
of
their
life.
E
But
it's
compounding
so
if
you
figure
the
loan
balance,
if
you
start
out
with
a
balance
of,
let's
say
you
borrowed
forty
thousand
dollars,
it
cost
eight
thousand
dollars
to
get
the
reverse
mortgage.
The
the
interest
is
compounding
on
the
reverse
mortgage.
So
as
it's
going
up,
the
amount
of
interest
is
going
going
to
be
going
up
as
well,
because
you're
dealing
with
a
higher
balance.
E
E
H
Good
morning
good
morning,
let
me
first
commend
councilwoman
parker
for
wrapping
her
head
around
this
as
a
consumer
watching
the
advertisements,
and
I
would
like
to
think
I'm
halfway
intelligent.
I
didn't.
I
never
got
anything
about
reverse
mortgages
and
I'm
just
beginning
to
get
some
level
of
of
understanding
here.
So
I
thank
you
because
it
really
is
a
big
issue
and
it's
interesting.
H
It
may
be
obvious
who
the
winners
are
in
this
type
of
endeavor
enterprise.
If
that's
what
you
want
to
call
it,
but
I
need
to
hear
from
you
who
are
the
winners
when
seniors
find
themselves
trapped
in
this
type
of
circumstance,
and,
secondly,
are
there
remedies
to
rescue
citizens
when
they
find
themselves
in
this
quagmire?.
H
J
K
D
Without
all
that
sound
advice,
but
the
to
answer
your
question
about
speaking
out
in
the
communities-
yes,
that
is
something
that
clarify
does
on
a
regular
basis.
So
if
you
reach
out
to
me
afterwards,
so
I
can
put
you
in
touch
with
our
director
of
education,
who
will
then
set
those
what
the
meetings
that
you
have
will
work
to
accommodate.
Okay,.
L
E
E
Last
year
there
was
an
additional
component
added
to
the
reverse
mortgage
lending
process,
where
the
the
lender
has
to
do
a
financial
assessment
and
as
part
of
that
financial
assessment,
they're
looking
at
the
viability
of
the
long-term
client
staying
in
the
property.
At
that
point,
I
would,
I
would
hope
that
they
would
take
those
programs
into
account,
but
it's
really
varies
from
lender
to
lenders
to
how
they're
managing
that
risk
aspect.
Well,.
L
I
mean
I
would
hope
so
as
well.
I
mean
there's
a
tremendous
amount
of
risk
that
that's
involved,
especially,
I
mean
you
think
of
it
not
to
compare,
because
it's
certainly
different,
but
you
know
people
prey
upon
others:
lack
of
lack
of
information,
lack
of
of
knowledge,
of
of
what
what
a
program
is,
and
in
the
long
term,
stability
of
it
and
and
the
financial
feasibility
of
it.
Maybe
you
know,
councilwoman
tasco
was
was
fighting
pres,
predatory
lending
for
years
and
years
and
years
right
until
something
you
know
was
addressed
about
it.
L
So
people
have
a
way
of
of
of
swimming
around.
You
know
like
sharks
and
and
preying
on
opportunities.
So
I
don't
know
if
there's
a
way
or
if
there's
a
vehicle,
to
make
sure
that
the
reverse
mortgage
lenders
in
the
city
philadelphia
when
it
comes
to,
especially
when
it
comes
to
our
seniors.
They
don't
take
advantage
of
philadelphians.
A
B
B
D
D
C
Thank
you,
madam
chair,
and
again
thank
my
colleagues
for
such
great
questions.
I
want
to
follow
up
quickly
on
a
question
that
councilwoman
of
reynolds
brown
when
she
talked
about
the
the
issue
of
education
now
here
in
the
city
of
philadelphia,
it
am
I
accurate
when
I
say
that
clarify
is
one
of
only
two
housing
counseling
agencies,
which
is
certified
to
provide
reverse
mortgage
counseling.
C
You
be
able
to
get
us
a
list
of
the
the
the
housing
counseling
agencies
and
housing
counseling
agencies
that
work
directly
with
our
office
of
housing
and
community
development,
who
are
certified
to
provide
reverse
mortgage
counseling
in
the
city
of
philadelphia,
because,
based
on
the
list
that
that
we
have,
we
had
obviously
clarify
as
sort
of
the
premier
and
or
primary
entity,
and
we
only
saw
one
others
tell
me
this-
give
me
a
sense
of
how
many
home
owners
you've
counseled
about
reverse
mortgages
in
the
past
four
years.
How
many
would
you
say.
D
D
Of
all
of
the
borrowers
that
we
counsel,
primarily,
they
are
either
low
income
or
very
low
income,
and
that
is
across
the
footprint
that
is
not
just
philadelphia.
The
statistics
do
not
differ
for
the
clients
that
we
counsel
clarify
by
geography,
so
so
the
having
other
assets
is
usually
something
that
is
not
present.
D
You
know
having
a
plan
before
they
sit
down
with
a
counselor
to
understand.
You
know
what
would
happen
in
certain
circumstances.
It's
not
something
that
happens.
So,
as
nicole
mentioned,
you
know,
someone
that's
invested
in
the
process
understands
and
has
done
some
research
before
they
even
contacted
somebody
that
they
saw
on
television
or
somebody
that
a
friend
told
them
to
call
is
is
someone
that
has
a
foundation
of
knowledge
and
that's
generally,
not
the
highest
percentage
of
the
folks
that
we
see.
C
Well
now,
my
final
question
to
you
is
that
I
want
I'm,
so
I
want
to
understand
the
rules,
the
rules
association
associated
with
how
you
provide
counseling
for
reverse
mortgages.
So,
for
example,
if
you
are
looking
at
the
the
profile
you
just
gave
us
a
snapshot
of
what
the
ideal
borrower
looks
like
and
then
that
very
low
income
individual
comes
into
the
office
for
counseling.
Are
you,
as
the
certified
reverse
mortgage
counseling
agency,
able
to
tell
them,
based
on
the
data
that
you've
presented
to
us
today?
C
D
D
C
C
I
mean
everything
associated
with
what
you
have
to
do
to
get
a
snapshot
of
the
fiscal
health
of
my
personal
life
and
when
you
look
at
my
my
income,
particularly
if
I'm
on
a
fixed
income-
and
you
know
that
I'm
interested
in
this
product
but
as
my
my
colleague
councilman
don
mentioned
earlier,
what
if
there
was
another
product
that
that
that
that
was
fitting
or
that
there
is
some
attribute
associated
with
it?
For
example,
you
mentioned
the
the
taxes
being
able
to
and
maintaining
your
daily
other
bills.
E
We
educate
the
clients
on
what
the
options
are,
that
there
are
these
programs
available.
That
loop
is
available,
that
you
could.
You
know
somebody
who's
not
applying,
who
isn't
participating
in
like
the
cap
program,
for
example,
that
that's
available,
maybe
they're
not
using
food
stamps,
but
are
eligible
for
food
stamps
things
like
that
where
they
they
may
not
have
realized
that
there
were
other
resources
available.
C
I
I
It's
always
someone
who
is,
you
know
very
much
middle
class,
very
stable
in
terms
of
financial
planning
and
and
well
prepared
for
retirement
and
for
senior
years,
someone
who
is
educated
and
financially
savvy
when
you
look
at
the
advertisements
and
what
is
presented,
it's
very
much
different
from
the
actual
clientele
that
these
companies
are
reaching
out
to.
You
know
try
to
sell
these
reverse
mortgages
to.
I
So
I'm
just
really
glad
that
you
were
able
to
bring
that
to
the
forefront,
because
I
think
a
lot
of
people
assume,
if
you
wouldn't
know
you
would
assume
that
a
reverse
mortgage
often
goes
to
someone
who
knows
what
they're
doing.
Who
knows
exactly
what
the
implications
are.
I
used
to
be
a
housing
counselor
many
many
moons
ago,
and
I
see
haram
carmona,
who
used
to
be
my
supervisor
from
ohcd,
but
I
remember
specifically
talking
about
reverse
mortgages,
and
this
was
in
the
90s,
and
you
know
at
that
point.
I
I
think
that
they
were
just
coming
online
and
people
were
really
just
dealing
with.
How
do
we
get
in
front
of
this
thing
that
is
coming
into
our
community?
So
I
just
really
wanted
to
thank
you
for
bringing
out
that
information
and
making
sure
that
people
understood
that
what
is
presented
in
terms
of
advertised,
the
you
know,
the
advertisement
and
who
this
product
is
geared
to
and
who
actually
is
applying
for
these
types
of
products
are
two
completely
different
groups
of
people.
So
thank
you.
A
B
B
B
C
G
E
G
G
E
G
G
E
A
N
N
Here
in
philadelphia
we
support
wealth
development
among
historically
underserved
populations
in
their
communities
through
our
lending
activity,
but
also
through
our
research
and
analysis
and
partnership
with
cities
all
over
the
country,
in
particular
with
philadelphia
where
we've
been
active
for
the
past
30
years,
and
so
initially,
I'm
going
to
provide
a
quick
overview
of
some
national
and
state
trends
for
reverse
mortgage
originations
just
to
situate
the
activity.
That's
going
on
here
in
philadelphia.
N
So,
historically,
when
you
look
at
reverse
mortgages,
they
don't
really
become
popular
until
the
mortgage
boom
at
the
end
at
the
beginning
of
the
21st
century.
So
in
the
90s
there
really
heckums
are
really
not
part
of
the
mortgage
market,
but
you
have
this
huge
boom
during
the
the
mortgage
explosion
and
then
after
the
bust
in
2008,
2009,
we've
sort
of
gotten
to
a
place
where
we're
around
60
000
or
so
so.
N
So
there
are
some
lenders
that
really
only
do
reverse
mortgages
so
places
like
generation
mortgage
company,
the
financial
freedom
acquisition
organization.
You
can
go
on
their
website
and
you
can
see
that
they
only
do
reverse
mortgages.
The
estimates
that
we're
providing
and
sharing
with
you
today
are
an
undercount
of
the
foreclosure
activity.
That's
we're
seeing
in
the
foreclo
in
the
reverse
mortgage
market,
because
some
of
the
biggest
banks
who
are
who
we
know
are
the
biggest
originators
of
reverse
mortgages
to
be
able
to
readily
identify
reverse
mortgages
in
the
publicly
available
data
that
we've
examined.
N
For
this
preliminary
analysis,
we
need
to
look
a
little
bit
deeper
and
to
be
able
to
sort
out
what
types
of
mortgages
are
actually
reverse
mortgages
that
are
being
made
by
the
biggest
lenders.
So
in
order
to
really
pin
down
this
activity
in
the
city
and
nationally,
we
would
need
to
do
a
little
bit
more
digging
into
particularly
the
big
banks
and
what
their
activity
looks
like
for
reverse
mortgage
lending.
N
So
more
than
a
hundred
a
year
over
the
past
few
years,
now
we're
going
to
look
at
a
series
of
maps
to
show
where
these
foreclosures
are
taking
place
in
the
city,
and
so
this
first
map
shows
the
location
of
every
single
one
of
these
reverse
mortgage
foreclosures
across
the
different
councilmanic
districts
in
the
city
of
philadelphia.
So
you
can
see
that
they're
spread
out
all
over
the
city.
N
There
are
some
concentrations
in
west
philadelphia
in
the
northwest,
some
down
in
south
philadelphia
and
then
out
and
scattered
out
into
the
northeast
and
in
central
north
philadelphia.
So
really
there
are
reverse
mortgage.
Foreclosures
activity
is
happening
all
over
the
city
and
when
we
look
at
just
the
numbers
of
reverse
mortgage
foreclosures
across
the
city
council
districts
over
the
past
three
years,
you
see
that
they
are
distributed
across.
All
of
the
all.
The
council
manage
districts
with
some
concentrations
in
districts.
Three,
eight
two
and
nine.
J
A
L
N
L
N
B
L
N
So
these
are
there's
nothing
to
suggest
when
we
look
at
this
map-
and
I
want
this
to
be
really
clear-
that
there's
any
there's
no
evidence
to
suggest
that
there
are
sort
of
predatory
patterns
in
terms
of
the
way
we're
seeing
these
in
terms
of
what
we're
seeing
with
these
data.
But
the
patterns
that
we're
seeing
here
mimic
the
patterns
that
we've
seen
with
the
subprime
mortgage
lending
that
we
saw
with
the
housing
boom
right
in
terms
of
where
they're
located
in
terms
of
the
populations
that
are
being
served.
N
N
What
are
the
stories
that
borrowers
are
telling
about
their
experience
in
terms
of
the
marketing
that
they've
received
in
terms
of
the
acquisition
process?
The
education
process
they've
gone
through
in
actually
obtaining
the
loan
servicing
the
loan
and
then
what
it
looks
like
when
they've
entered
into
the
foreclosure
process
and
are
do
any
of
their
accounts?
N
Suggest
the
presence
of
abusive
practices
right
in
the
marketing
and
sale
of
these
reverse
mortgages,
and
these
are
live
issues
that
are
concerning
for
people
in
this
room
and
for
people
living
all
over
the
all
over
the
city
and
I'll
close
with
this
last
slide
today.
That
just
highlights
those
areas
of
the
city
where
the
population
is
over
60
and
that
their
incomes
are
below
50
000,
and
so
you
see
that
these
areas
are
all
over
the
city
and
as
more
and
more
baby
boomers
retire
and
the
silver
tsunami
sort
of
washes
over
philadelphia.
N
N
N
A
G
N
N
C
C
How
long
would
it
take
the
reinvestment
fund
to
conduct
a
detailed
analysis,
answering
many
of
the
questions
that
were
asked
today
so
that
we
can
have
an
accurate
overview
of
the
the
presence
of
this
product
in
the
in
the
city
of
philadelphia,
you're
sort
of
listing
all
of
the
borrowers?
So
we
know
who
they
are:
the
borrowers,
the
number
of
foreclosures
the
lenders.
So
everything
that
we
wanted
to
know.
How
long
would
it
take
you
to
put
that
data
together.
C
The
scope,
but
I
mean
just
generally-
I
guess
what
what
I'm
I'm
leaning,
I'm
doing,
what
my
sorority
would
call
leaning
on
the
shield
right
now.
You
you've
given
us
a
reason
to
want
this
data
for
the
entire
city,
and
I
wanted
us
sort
of
not
just
from
an
aggregate
perspective,
but
we,
but
we
would
want
a
disaggregated
by
council
district.
So
how
long
did
it
take
you
to
do
this.
B
I
would
say
this
was
the
work
of
a
couple
weeks,
but
this
is
kind
of
looking
at
one
side
of
the
issue,
we're
looking
at
the
foreclosure,
the
sort
of
the
end
of
the
life
cycle
of
some
of
these
loans.
What
we'd
like
to
look
at
is
the
origination
side,
where
we
would
go
into
the
quarter
of
deeds
records
and
really
look
at
where
these
loans
being
made.
B
B
Unfortunately,
I'm
not
able
to
stay
for
the
entire
hearing,
but
I
want
to
commend
you
and
councilman
parker
for
putting
together
this
conversation,
having
had
some
experiences
as
both
a
banker
also
working
for
the
law
department,
representing
ohcd
and
being
the
board
president
center
park.
Some
of
the
issues
that
were
just
articulated
by
this
presentation
are
things.
I've
had
some
assumptions
about
some
concerns,
because
the
city
of
philadelphia
has
had
a
large
rate
of
homeownership,
but
also
high
level
poverty
and
knowing
the
growing
senior
population
we
have
in
the
city.
B
This
issue
of
reverse
mortgages
going
to
foreclosure
was
something
I
had
some
assumptions
about.
I
think
this
is
really
the
tip
of
the
icebergs.
I
really
recommend
both
the
chair
and
councilman
parker
for
bringing
up
this
conversation
and
we
can
take
steps
to
help
our
constituents
address
this
issue
going
forward.
So
thank
you.
A
A
O
Good
morning,
so
I'm
beth
shea
I
coordinate
the
homeowner's
assistance
program
at
senior
law
center
and
I'm
so
pleased
to
be
here
to
talk
about
what
we've
been
seeing
on
the
ground
with
reverse
mortgages
in
the
city
of
philadelphia.
How
did
we
get
here?
How
did
senior
law
center
come
to
be
at
the
forefront
of
the
philadelphia
reverse
mortgage
problem?
First,
through
our
funded
triage
program
in
the
mortgage,
foreclosure
diversion
court
seniors
come
there
who
have
been
sued
for
foreclosure
every
thursday
in
person
count.
We
give
in-person
counseling
and
advice
on
reverse
mortgage
foreclosure.
O
Lawsuits
seniors
with
reverse
mortgage
problems
also
come
to
us
through
our
telephone
help
line
operating
throughout
the
commonwealth
through
our
aging
services
network.
That
is
effectively
responds
to
legal
needs
of
seniors
in
all
philadelphia,
neighborhoods
and
through
our
eight
neighborhood
legal
clinics.
O
Seniors
are
regularly
sent
to
senior
law
center
by
state
representative
offices,
city,
council
offices,
philadelphia
corporation
for
aging,
ohcd,
clergy
networks
and
housing.
Counseling
agency
philadelphia
seniors
contacted
senior
law
center
22
times
in
2013
about
problems
with
reverse
mortgage
in
2014
that
jumped
to
47
and
in
2015
the
number
was
55..
O
O
O
Second,
widows
and
widowers
are
often
needlessly
losing
their
homes
when
the
borrowing
spouse
dies,
heirs
are
losing
the
family
home,
because
servicers
foreclose,
rather
than
assist
with
refinancing
third
mortgage
servicers,
are
not
using
their
hud
authorized
discretion
to
evaluate
reverse
mortgage
borrowers
for
repayment
plans
when
a
state
tax.
Excuse
me
when
real
estate
taxes
or
homeowner
insurance
premiums
become
delinquent,
preferring
instead
to
call
the
mortgage
doing
payable
and
sue
for
foreclosure
taking
the
home
from
the
borrowers.
O
So
now,
let's
go
a
little
bit
into
each
one
of
these
issues.
The
first
reverse
mortgage
product
is
not
accurately
explained
and
understood
by
seniors,
as
the
prior
two
panels
have
described.
This
is
a
problem.
A
reverse
mortgage
is
complex
financial
product
being
advertised
on
late
night
tv
in
a
neighborhood
in
grocery
store
newspapers.
O
Most
seniors
understand
they
don't
have
to
repay
the
loans
during
their
lifetime,
but
few
appreciate
and
mo
most
are
shocked
to
discover
that
upon
their
death,
the
loan
balance
will
have
skyrocketed
with
the
inclusion
of
monthly
fees,
interest
charges
and
mortgage
insurance
premiums
and
that
their
children
and
grandchildren
will
have
to
pay
this
debt
if
they
hope
to
continue
living
in
the
family
home.
In
many
cases,
cheaper
financing
alternatives
were
available
and
never
considered
by
the
senior,
because
the
reverse
mortgage
seemed
like
such
a
great
idea.
O
If
a
married,
reverse
borrower
took
out
a
loan
before
august
of
2014
without
including
his
wife
on
the
mortgage
when
he
later
dies,
his
wife
is
likely
to
lose
her
right
to
remain
in
the
home.
Why?
Because,
before
august
of
2014
report,
reverse
mortgages
make
the
loan
due
and
payable
upon
the
death
of
the
borrower.
O
A
federal
judge
ordered
hud
to
correct
the
problem,
protect
the
widows
but
so
far,
hud's
solution
has
been
to
leave
the
method
of
solving
the
problem
up
to
the
mortgage.
Servicers,
the
mortgage
company
gets
to
decide
whether
to
work
with
the
widow
and
possibly
assign
the
loan
to
hud
or
foreclose
the
loan
and
take
back
the
family,
home
senior
law
center
community
legal
services
and
philadelphia.
O
O
Most
widows
who
receive
a
letter
telling
them
that
the
loan
is
now
due,
may
walk
away
from
the
home
totally
unaware
they
had
another
option
and
it's
not
just
widows
of
deceased
reverse
mortgage
borrowers
who
are
being
mistreated,
but
also
children
and
grandchildren
of
the
deceased
borrower.
The
federal
government
protects
these
heirs
by
providing
that
they
can
purchase
the
property
from
the
reverse
mortgage
company.
For
the
lesser
of
the
amount
owed
on
the
mortgage
or
95
percent
of
the
property's.
O
A
failure
to
satisfy
any
of
these
conditions
can
result
in
the
mortgage
company
threatening
foreclosure
in
the
past.
If
the
problem
was
non-payment
of
taxes
or
insurance,
the
mortgage
company
typically
paid
the
expense
paid
the
expense
and
sent
a
bill
to
the
borrower.
If
the
borrower
could
not
repay
the
money,
the
mortgage
company
had
advanced,
the
servicer
would
offer
an
affordable
monthly
repayment
plan.
O
However,
hud's
repayment
policy
changed
in
april
2015
and
the
government
began
insisting
that
servicers
either
get
immediate
lump
sum
repayment
from
the
borrower
or
sue
to
foreclose
the
loan.
The
harshness
of
this
new
policy
as
applied
to
philadelphia
borrowers
was
highlighted
by
senior
law
center,
cls
and
pla.
O
So
two
statistics
make
it
clear
why
philadelphia
seniors
are
the
target
of
aggressive
reverse
mortgage
lenders?
First
of
the
127
000
philadelphia
properties
inhabited
by
somebody
over
the
age
of
sixty
five.
Sixty
three
percent
have
no
mortgage,
that's
eighty
thousand
homes
sitting
on
a
top
of
a
mountain
of
equity.
O
O
When
we
take
into
account
that
one
in
five
older
philadelphia
homeowners
lives
in
poverty,
the
challenge
of
how
to
maintain
the
homes
in
a
safe
and
habitable
condition
comes
into
focus
as
the
need
for
repair
grows.
So
does
financial
exploitation
by
repair
contractors
often
teamed
up
with
overly
aggressive
marketing
efforts
by
reverse
mortgage
lenders,
beginning
in
2009
senior
law?
Excuse
me:
seniors,
began
complaining
to
senior
law
about
high
pressure
solicitation
by
repair
contractors
who
introduced
them
to
reverse
mortgage
brokers
and
help
them
get
financing
arranged,
so
repairs
could
be
made
often
with
unf
satisfactory
results.
O
Many
of
these
seniors
said
they
never
intended
to
put
a
mortgage
on
their
home,
but
rather
they
believed
they
were
taking
out
a
loan
which
they
would
repay
over
time.
These
are
complex
financial
transactions,
often
misunderstood
by
the
same
senior
homeowner
and,
in
some
cases,
appear
to
include
fraudulent
collusive
activity
by
contractors
and
mortgage
brokers.
O
Currently
there
are
15
teams
of
volunteer
attorneys
at
these
firms,
handling
contractor
fraud,
litigation
you'll,
hear
from
brenda
myers
sitting
here:
a
senior
law
center
client,
who
was
contacted
by
a
contractor,
knocking
on
her
door,
offering
to
repair
her
home.
The
contractor
proposed
to
finance
the
repairs
with
a
reverse
mortgage.
O
We
believe
this
sort
of
door-to-door
solicitation
happens
throughout
philadelphia
by
contractors
who
claim
to
have
looked
at
the
house
and
convinced
the
homeowner
that
urgent
repairs
are
needed
since
approximately
75
000,
philadelphians,
age,
65
and
older
live
alone.
They
are
easy
targets
for
this
sort
of
financial
exploitation.
O
Okay,
so
we're
wrapping
up.
So
what
can
be
done?
Senior
law
center
proposes
the
following
one
number:
one
city
council
should
fund
an
education
campaign
targeted
towards
seniors
and
their
families,
explaining
the
dangers
and
risks
of
reverse
mortgages,
describing
alternative
financing
possibilities
and
spreading
the
news
about
city
and
state-sponsored
property,
tax
relief
programs,
home
repair
programs
and
low-cost
homeowners,
insurance
senior
law
center
and
ohcd
have
begun
planning
for
these
educational
forums.
O
O
Stabilizing
neighborhoods,
preventing
additional
vacancies
and
stopping
blight
senior
law
center
is
a
small,
well-established
legal
service
agency
conducting
outreach
in
all
city
neighborhoods.
Our
work
makes
a
large
impact
on
the
lives
of
seniors
and
upon
the
communities
in
which
they
live.
We
hope
to
do
much
more
for
seniors
in
our
community,
in
partnership
with
city
council
in
the
future.
We
are
well
positioned
to
respond
to
the
crises
as
they
develop
in
the
senior
community
in
philadelphia.
O
Housing
is
the
number
one
issue
facing
philadelphia
seniors
and
the
idea
of
aging
in
place
becomes
not
a
dream,
but
a
nightmare
if
the
houses
become
inhabitable
after
seniors
are
defrauded
by
shoddy
or
dishonest
home
repair
contractors,
or
if
homes
are
foreclosed
upon
due
to
delinquent
real
estate
taxes
or
delinquent
mortgages
or
if
they're
stolen
through
fraudulent
deeds.
Our
city
had
the
state,
our
city
and
state,
had
the
foresight
to
create
programs
and
protections
for
seniors,
but
funding
for
legal
services
is
critical
and
essential
if
seniors
are
to
be
able
to
access
these
protections.
O
Meanwhile,
senior
law
center
struggles
to
meet
the
increasing
legal
needs
of
seniors.
We
ask
city
council
recognize
the
special
needs
of
senior
homeowners,
including
the
critical
role
of
legal
services
and
protecting
their
rights
city
council's
support
and
partnership
is
tremendously
meaningful
and
appreciated
by
the
elders
of
our
community,
to
whom
we
all
owe
our
respect,
attention
and
gratitude.
P
Yes,
so
good
morning,
ladies
and
gentlemen,
my
name
is
wendy
bookler,
I'm
the
legal
director
at
senior
law
center
and
I'm
not
going
to
repeat
any
of
the
wonderful
things
that
beth
has
said
about
who
we
are
and
the
work
we
do.
But
I'm
here,
with
your
permission,
to
help
ms
myers
tell
her
story
to
you
so
good
morning.
Q
Q
You
tell
us
how
this
started:
it's,
okay,
it
started.
Okay,
a
man
was
walking
up
to
you
know
back
all
off
the
block.
You
know
asking
that
everybody
neighbor
in
the
neighborhood
you
know
do
they
need
work
on
the
house
and
I
said
yeah.
You
know
he
said
well.
I
know
a
person
that
they're
going
to
help
you.
You
know
finesse
get
them.
You
know
get
the
repairs
fixed.
I
said.
Oh
that's
good!
You
know,
I
sound
good,
you
know.
Okay,
I
think.
Q
P
Q
62.,
okay,
this
lady
came
and
she
had
some
papers,
you
know
and
she
okay,
the
document
she
had.
I
couldn't
see
that
good.
You
know
because
she
had
the
reading
was
so
small.
You
know
I
couldn't
read
it
so
she
read
it
to
me
and
she
was
telling
me
that
okay,
this
contractor
was
going
to
come
and
fix.
You
know
all
the
remodeled,
my
house
and
everything
you
know.
So
I
took
her
word
to
go
work
you
know
and
now
then
she
and
then
then
this
contract.
P
Back
a
second
okay,
so
when
she
came
to
your
house
and
showed
you
the
papers,
did
she
give
you
an
opportunity
to
read
them?
No,
did
she
give
you
a
copy
of
them?
No,
she
did
not,
and
did
you
sign
them?
Yes,
and
did
you
understand
at
that
time
what
you
were
signing?
No,
no!
So
what
did
you
think
would
happen
at
that
point.
Q
Q
P
P
P
Q
Happen,
oh,
it
was
no
gift
or
nothing
like
that.
I
thought
they
met.
It
was
the
remodel
of
my
house.
That's
what
I
that's
what
I
really
believed
you
know
where
I
worked.
I
took
a
word
because
she
said
I
was
gonna
get
the
money
I
was
going
to
get
the
I
was
going
to
pay
for
the
contractor
to
get
the
work
done
and
that's
why
I
took
a
word.
P
P
P
P
Q
P
P
P
Q
P
Q
P
Q
P
Q
P
Q
P
P
Q
P
Q
They
cheat
people,
they
teach
people
and
I
think
they
need
to
stop
doing
it
and
then
explain
better
to
people.
You
know
what
they
do.
What
is
up
you
know?
Yes,
because
a
lot
of
people
wouldn't
assign.
I
know
I
wouldn't
assign
it.
You
know
my
house
away,
because
that
my
house
was
not
in
any
way.
You
know.
Yes,.
P
A
H
And
the
record,
because
I
have
an
88
year
old
mom
that
I
take
care
of
along
with
my
sisters
and
we've
been
able
to
protect
her,
be
the
additional
listener
eyes
and
ears
for
documents
that
come
her
way
and
we
do
first
of
all
to
the
senior
law
center.
You
do
exceptionally
important
exceedingly
good
work,
and
that
is
that
is
reflected
in
the
testimony.
That's
just
been
offered.
I
applaud
you
for
your
courage.
H
Q
Well,
they
helped
so
you
see
that
I
said
you
know
they
helped
real
good,
helped
me,
because
really
really
the
mortgage
company
would
get
ready
to
take
my
house.
I
didn't,
I
didn't
know
because
they
sent
me
all
these
things
to
pay
off
and
then
that's
when
I
say
was
and
then
say:
don't
talk
to
them,
don't
call
them
did
I
knew
something's
wrong.
That's
when
I
got
in
touch
with
this
citizen,
see.
H
C
R
C
C
And-
and
we
appreciate
that
I
want
to
ask
to
the
senior
law
project.
What
you've
described
today
to
a
certain
degree,
is
a
disturbing
pattern
of
contractor
fraud
in,
in
essence,
so
contractor
fraud
related
directly
to
the
the
reverse
mortgage.
Are
there
any
particular
laws
on
the
books
that
can
deal
with
this,
and
I
I
saw
your
recommendations
in
your
testimony
and
they
are
all
duly
noted,
but
is
there
anything
that
you
want
to
get
on
the
record
today
about
the
coziness
of
this
relationship
or
the
co-mingling
of
it.
O
O
So
we've
raised
the
issue
with
the
u.s
attorney's
office
here
in
philadelphia,
and
we've
been
in
touch
with
the
pennsylvania
attorney
general.
I'm
not
sure
where
the
dividing
line
falls
between
legal
and
illegal,
bundling
of
mortgages
and
and
repair
work.
So
we
turned
it
over
to
the
ones
that
know
more
of
that.
O
The
two
law
firms,
the
practice
groups
that
we
have
they
are
the
ones
who
are
doing
the
cases
with
the
mortgage
companies
and
the
reverse
con,
the
reverse
mortgage
companies
and
the
contractors,
and
they
are
the
ones
that
have
conducted
the
forensic
audits
and
looked
into
the
the
tie-ins
and
it's
through
those
litigations
that
we've
found
that
there
seems
to
be
this
activity.
That
is
too
closely
bundled
and
they
find
bad
mortgage
brokers
as
a
part
of
the
transaction.
P
C
I
just
wanted
to
state
for
the
record,
because
again
I
I
started
this,
and
this
was
extremely
important
in
it.
The
reason
why
I
said
it
when
we
opened
this
hearing
was
to
sort
of
demonstrate
lessons
learned.
That's
why
we
have
our
federal
and
our
state
partners
here
at
this
hearing
today,
so
that
they
can
hear
this
testimony
firsthand.
So
I
wanted
to
just
thank
for
the
record
again:
u
s
senator
casey's
office,
us
congressman
bob
brady
hud,
particularly
our
ag's
office,
who
is
here
along
with
ph
phfa.
C
We
as
you
can
see.
We
are
not
under
the
belief
that
city
council
has
the
authority
you
know
to
to
bring
together
all
the
remedies
and
solutions
that
we're
going
to
need
in
order
to
find
a
way
to
fix
these
problems,
but
we
will
do
it
from
an
intergovernmental
perspective,
and
the
contractor
issue
is
one
that
we
will
definitely
be
working
on.
The
ag's
office
is
like
writing
notes
now.
You
know
perturbed
by
this,
so
I'm
sure
they
will
get
our
state
ag's
office
along
with
the
u.s
attorney's
office.
L
L
You
know
not
only
morally
wrong,
but
it's
it's
there's
collusion
and
and
it's
unethical
and
and
it's
just
illegal
for
for
somebody
to
take
advantage
of
somebody.
Thank
god
you
had,
you
know
a
a
family
of
of
church.
You
know
that
was
there
for
you
and
you
knew
where
to
go
most
people
I
would
imagine
or
are
by
themselves,
and
that
are
alone
and
and
they
they
may
not
have
that
kind
of
you
know
family
or
network.
L
You
know
selling
something
that
looks
like
a
duck
and
walks
like
a
duck.
It's
a
duck
all
right,
it's
it's
a
scam
and
we
should
be.
We
should
be
made
aware
of
it
now.
I
know
that
you
know
from
from
a
legal.
You
know
point
of
view
that
you
know
they
they're
governed.
Okay,
these
banks
are
governed
by
different
regulations.
I
don't
know
if
they're
federal,
legal
regulations
or
but
they
are
governed
by
banking
regulations,
with
the
federal
government
and
even
with
hud
loans
right.
L
The
lender
were
consultants
that
are
offered
to
individuals
to
help
with
these
programs.
It's
illegal
for
them.
It's
unethical
for
them
right
to
refer
contractors.
So
when
they
get
dig
down
to
this,
they'll
find
out
that
it's
not
just
a
common
contractor
or
two
that's
consistent
across
the
board.
All
right
that
it's
you
know,
there's
collusion
with
some
of
the
lenders,
all
right
that
are
doing
the
referrals,
so
you
know
keep
up
the
good
work.
You're
gonna
help
a
lot
of
people,
and
I'm
glad
you
were
here
today
and
thank
you
for
your
courage.
A
Thank
you
very
much.
Thank
you,
colleagues.
We
thank
god
that
god
is
god
and
that
you
have
a
good
church
and
you
got
good
senior
folks
law
center
who
who
are
doing
the
right
thing
and
you
were
directed
to
them.
So
we
thank
you
all
you're,
probably
in
my
area,
if
you're
zip
codes
4-3,
so
we
need
to
try
to
I'll
get
the
general
area.
Maybe
we
can
let
people
in
the
area
know
that
there
are
bogus
folks
going
around
trying
to
deal
with
seniors.
A
I
You,
madam
chair,
you
know
I
just
wanted
to
join
with
my
colleagues
and
saying
how
outraged
I
am
with
the
way
you
were
treated
and
I
take
personal
offense
to
it,
and
you
know
I'm
happy
that
your
situation
has
worked
out.
However,
we
know
that,
for
so
many
others,
the
situation
doesn't
work
out
and
we
saw
from
the
you
know
from
the
maps
that
were
provided
earlier.
I
You
know,
there's
a
large
population
of
folks
seniors
who
have
been
caught
up
in
this,
as
I
call
it.
A
scam
and
the
situation
has
not
worked
out.
They've
lost
their
homes
that
they've
worked
their
entire
lives
to
build
this
foundation,
and
so
I
take
a
personal
offense
to
it.
I
would
like
to
know-
and
you
can
either
speak
on
the
record
or
off
the
record,
who
the
contractor
is.
I
I
would
like
to
have
that
information,
because
one
of
the
things
that
we
can
do
and
if
you're
in
councilman
blackwell's
district,
I
know
that
she's
someone
to
definitely
follow
up
on
this,
in
terms
of
who
the
contractor
all
is
and
what
permits
licenses
you
know
are
they
in
order?
We
need
to
know.
We
need
to
know
how
they're
operating
and
how
they're
conducting
business,
because,
as
members
of
city
council,
it's
also
our
responsibility
to
protect
our
public
and
our
constituents,
so
we
would
like
to
have
that
information
made
available.
F
J
J
J
I
know
in
my
heart
he
never
anticipated
this
kind
of
repercussion
because
he
would
have
never
wanted
to
hurt
me
deliberately
in
207,
my
husband
al
and
I
purchased
our
house
in
south
philadelphia
together
a
short
time
after
we
moved
in
ali,
asked
me
to
take
my
name
off
the
house
and
put
it
in
his
name
only
so
he
could
get
the
taxes
cheaper.
Somehow
I
did
it
without
question.
J
What
I
did
not
know
is
that
my
husband
had
taken
out
a
reverse
mortgage
less
than
four
months
after
he
died
in
2012
the
mortgage
company
sued
me
to
foreclose
on
my
house.
I
did
not
know
anything
about
a
reverse
mortgage
still,
not
sure
how
they
work.
So
you
could
imagine
how
shocked
I
was
to
hear
I
was
going
to
lose
my
house
in
my
heart.
I
know
this
process
was
not
explained
well
enough
for
him
to
understand
fully
all
the
things
that
are
happening
to
me
now.
J
J
F
I'm
going
to
now
give
some
of
the
context
for
what
ms
guerriero
testified
about
as
the
city's
largest
provider
of
free
legal
services.
Community
legal
services
assists
more
than
11
600
of
philadelphia's
poorest
residents
with
their
legal
problems
each
year
and
our
homeownership
and
consumer
rights
unit
represents
approximately
600
homeowners
every
year,
dealing
with
the
potential
loss
of
their
homes
and
among
these
are
homeowners
like
ms
guerrero
with
reverse
mortgages.
F
We
represent
homeowners
in
a
number
of
ways.
We
work
with
the
city's
diversion
program
and
for
foreclosure
court
to
attempt
to
negotiate
solutions
where
that's
possible.
Where
that's
not
possible,
we
will
litigate
cases
through
the
court
of
common
pleas
and
in
appeals
from
the
court
of
common
pleas,
and
sometimes
we
will
file
an
affirmative
consumer
protection
suit
on
the
homeowner's
behalf.
One
example
of
that
is
the
case
of
plunkett
versus
castro,
which
was
a
case
filed
in
the
u.s
federal
court
in
the
district
of
columbia
originally
filed
by
the
litigation
arm
of
the
aarp.
F
We
were
closely
with
the
aarp's
council
and
moved
to
intervene
in
that
case
on
behalf
of
a
philadelphia
homeowner
who
was
faced
with
the
loss
of
her
home
because
of
a
reverse
mortgage
and
as
I'll
discuss
shortly.
That
case
was
resolved
with
a
landmark
change
of
hud
policy
that
often
allows
surviving
spouses
to
remain
in
their
homes.
Ms
guerrero
is
her
case
is
a
situation
in
which
she's
been
helped
by
that
new
hud
program,
but
the
help
may
or
may
not
be
enough.
F
One
of
the
problems
which
you've
heard
about
is
the
problem
of
counseling.
We've
heard
that
homeowners
go
into
reverse
mortgages
without
without
enough
education
or
understanding
of
how
these
products
work.
That
counseling
process
is
regulated
by
hud
counselors,
follow
a
protocol
and
are
not
able
to
deviate
in
significant
respects
from
that
protocol,
which
is
part
of
the
problem
that
you
asked
about
previously
and
there's
a
great
great
need
for
borrowers
and
borrowers
families
to
have
better
information
about
these
products.
F
Part
of
the
problems
have
been
created
because
until
recently,
reverse
mortgages
were
approved
without
regard
to
the
borrower's
credit.
This
made
reverse
mortgages
available
to
borrowers
with
poor
credit
or
no
credit
who
could
not
otherwise
qualify
for
a
loan,
but
it
created
a
cascade
of
other
problems.
F
As
clarify
explained
in
their
testimony.
Hud
recently
in
2014
and
2015
changed
many
of
the
underwriting
guidelines
for
these
loans.
They
now
require
a
credit
history
analysis
which
includes
an
assessment
of
the
mortgages
experience,
paying
taxes
and
insurance
and
where
the
credit
history
does
not
show
the
ability
to
meet
future
financial
obligations.
There's
now
a
fully
required
life
expectancy
set
aside
that
is
required.
A
F
A
C
F
The
second
point
has
to
do
with
protecting
surviving
spouses,
like
ms
garriero
from
foreclosure
when
the
when
the
borrowing
spouse
dies.
Hud
has
come
up
with
programs
that
protect
surviving
spouses
now
under
from
automatic
displacement
when
the
borrower
dies,
but
there
are
problems
with
hud's
solution.
The
implementation
is
within
the
discretion
of
the
servicers
and
borrowers
or
surviving
spouses,
don't
always
learn
about
their
new,
the
new
protections
in
time
to
avail
of
them,
and
then
there
are
details
that
can
cause
serious
problems.
F
Hud
requires
that
the
surviving
spouse
have
an
established
legal
ownership
of
the
property,
yet
the
time
frame
for
obtaining
that
legal
ownership
of
the
property
through
doing
probate,
sometimes
or
whatever
else
is
required.
It's
not
off
is
not
always
enough
time
to
be
able
to
do
things
within
hud's
deadlines
and
then
taxes
and
insurance
that
may
be
due
has
to
be
paid
in
a
lump
sum
in
order
for
a
surviving
spouse
to
be
eligible
for
these
protections
and
the
ability
to
do
that
is
often
non-existent.
F
F
My
third
point
has
to
do
with
the
requirements
to
pay
taxes
and
insurance.
The
senior
law
center
has
gone
into
this
in
some
detail.
There's
no
reason
for
me
to
have
to
repeat
all
the
things
that
they've
said
other
than
to
emphasize
that
the
repayment
agreements
that
hud
has
authorized
reverse
mortgage
lenders
to
offer
to
homeowners
often
requires
payments
that
are
beyond
a
homeowner's
ability
to
pay
and
does
not
allow
homeowners
to
take
advantage
of
the
city's
protections
for
payment
of
taxes
over
time.
F
A
A
N
R
R
Since
you've
already
heard
the
very
valuable
testimony
from
housing
and
legal
counseling
agencies,
the
reinvestment
fund
and
the
courageous
testimony
of
ms
myers
as
guerrero,
thank
you
very
much.
We
appreciate
that.
I
will
focus
on
the
steps
that
the
city
has
already
taken
to
assist
residents
with
reverse
mortgages
and
the
steps
that
we
have
planned
in
the
near
future.
R
R
R
R
R
Once
a
foreclosure
complaint
is
filed
by
the
lender,
including
a
complaint
related
to
a
reverse
mortgage
due
to
unpaid
taxes,
insurance
or
inadequate
home
maintenance,
the
city
begins
homeowner
specific
outreach.
Homeowners
receive
an
individualized
letter
from
ohcd,
letting
them
know
of
their
conciliation
conference
date
and
encouraging
them
to
reach
out
to
the
city
for
assistance.
R
Homeowners
in
low
and
moderate
income
neighborhoods
receive
additional
personalized
outreach,
which
a
neighborhood
advisory
committee
staff
member
attempts
to
contact
them
in
person
through
door-to-door
outreach.
Ohcd
has
contacted
more
than
3
thousand
homeowners
by
mail
and
another
five
hundred
homeowners
through
door-to-door
outreach.
R
If
the
homeowner
is
encountering
foreclosure
issues,
including
with
reverse
mortgages,
ohcd's
quarterly
insert
in-service
training
for
housing.
Counselor
has
addressed
reverse
mortgage
issues
in
the
past,
and
we
will
be
doing
so
again
at
its
next
session.
As
part
of
this,
mandatory
training
ohcd
will
work
with
experts
in
policy
and
law
to
create
a
fact
sheet
that
counselors
can
use
to
assist
clients
facing
foreclosure
due
to
a
reverse
mortgage
and
will
make
this
fact
sheet
available
to
council
members
for
use
in
helping
constituents
with
reverse
mortgage
problems.
R
Although
housing
counseling
is
required
for
homeowners
prior
to
entering
into
reverse
reverse
mortgage,
but
often
by
the
time,
a
homeowner
talks
to
a
housing
counselor,
most
of
whom
are
agencies
not
funded
by
the
city.
In
most
cases,
that
lender
has
already
convinced
the
homeowner
to
take
the
reverse
mortgage
if
hud
were
to
require
housing
counseling
before
that
decision
is
made,
more
senior
homeowners
could
avoid
the
problem
associated
with
reverse
mortgages.
R
Ohcd
is
proud
of
its
record
of
saving
nearly
10
000
homes
from
foreclosure,
and
we
look
very
forward
to
working
with
the
team
that
made
that
success
possible
housing,
counseling
agencies,
non-profit
legal
organizations,
court
staff,
city,
council,
members
and
others
to
extend
that
success
to
the
reverse
mortgage
problem.
Thank
you
and
I
would
I'm
happy
to
answer
any
questions.
A
G
M
M
Reverse
mortgages,
stop
the
growth
of
intergenerational
wealth
and
that's
a
tremendous
problem
for
the
african-american
and
latino
communities
in
our
city.
In
the
bad
old
days
when
mortgages
were
redlined,
when
people
of
color
couldn't
get
mortgages,
they
could
not
grow
the
intergenerational
wealth
in
the
most
normal
way,
and
that
is
parents
leave
the
houses
to
their
children.
The
children
take
that
money
pay
for
their
college.
Education
start
more
small
businesses
start
another
house,
reverse
mortgages
are
going
back
to
the
bad
old
days
and
breaking
that
ability
to
grow
intergenerational
wealth.
M
Yes,
there
are
a
few
people,
it's
appropriate
for,
and
it
may
be
a
necessary
lifeboat,
but
we
should
not
lose
track
of
the
fact
that
anybody
who
is
taking
out
a
reverse
mortgage
is
taking
money
away
from
their
families
away
from
their
heirs
and
is
breaking
that
long
time,
tradition
of
intergenerational
wealth,
which
has
allowed
people
like
me,
a
tremendous
privilege
and
has
really
harm
minority
communities,
not
just
in
the
city
of
philadelphia
but
across
the
country.
So
yes,
let's
do
the
best
we
can,
but
let's
not
be
fooled.
M
We
need
pensions,
we
need
social
security
and
we
need
medical
payments
and
treatments
for
long-term
care
that
don't
bankrupt
people
and
don't
stop
air
from
continuing
to
grow.
Thank
you
very
much.
I
did
bring
one
person
with
me
who
has
a
personal
experience
which
I
thought
you
ought
to
hear,
but
I'll
wait.
S
The
homeowner
does
not
understand
notifications
from
the
lender
and
has
no
support
from
family
for
help.
More
specifically,
the
prime,
the
primary
issue
we
see
are
clients
who
are
facing
foreclosure
as
a
result
of
report
verse
mortgage
lenders
paying
property
taxes
on
behalf
of
the
homeowner,
often
either
without
the
homeowner's
knowledge
or
awareness.
S
These
cases
happen
in
a
few
ways.
First,
the
city
of
philadelphia
has
a
process
for
paying
property
tax
taxes,
which
was
mentioned,
which
allows
homeowners
to
pay
their
taxes
by
a
certain
date.
Many
of
these
senior
homeowners
wait
until
their
deadline
to
make
their
payment,
often
because
of
the
realities
of
constraints
of
living
on
a
fixed
income.
S
This,
then
creates
confusion
for
the
homeowner
who
may
have
paid
their
taxes
already
themselves
in
the
meantime,
or
are
planning
to
do
so
by
the
deadline
or
decide
to
make
an
agreement.
The
client
believes
that
there
are
current
with
property
taxes
and
do
not
understand
why
the
lender
is
demanding
repayment.
S
The
second
situation
we
frequently
see
involves
homeowners,
who
are
on
a
monthly
property
tax
payment
plan
with
the
city.
Recently
I
had
a
homeowner
in
just
the
situation.
She
was
paying
her
taxes
on
a
monthly
basis.
However,
at
some
point
in
time,
the
reverse
mortgage
company
stepped
in
and
the
unbeknownst
to
the
homeowner
began,
making
the
payments
and
paid
the
remaining
balance
of
the
taxes,
and
my
client
then
received
a
letter
from
the
lender,
stating
that
she
owed
the
reverse
mortgage
lender
for
the
taxes
that
were
paid.
S
Another
challenge
in
these
cases
occur
when
we
have
involvement
with
the
department
of
revenue,
and
we
ask
them
to
assist
in
providing
a
breakdown
regarding
their
taxes
and
in
some
cases
the
paid
amount
does
not
match
the
amount.
The
reverse
mortgage
lender
states
that
is
needed
to
be
paid
by
the
homeowner.
S
These
repayment
agreements
between
the
lender
and
client
last
from
approximately
one
to
five
years
in
length
when
a
new
property
tax
year
begins
the
lender
in
some
cases
again
pays
the
taxes
on
behalf
of
the
the
homeowner
prior
to
the
client,
having
the
opportunity
to
enter
into
a
monthly
agreement
with
the
city
in
these
excuse
me.
In
these
cases,
the
pre-existing
monthly
payment
agreements
with
the
reverse
mortgage
lender
then
increases.
S
Finally,
in
other
cases,
clients
with
reverse
mortgage
face
property
taxes
related
foreclosures,
because
they
simply
don't
understand
or
may
not
remember
that
they're
still
responsible
for
paying
the
property
taxes
or
homeowners
insurance
when
they
have
reverse
mortgage
when
they
have
this
reverse
mortgage,
the
issue
could
be
prevented
through
not
only
proactive
education
prior
to
obtaining
a
reverse
mortgage,
but
ongoing
education
and
counseling
through
hud
certified
counseling
agencies.
After
obtaining
a
reverse
mortgage,
I
have
worked
with
homeowners,
who
were
in
active
foreclosure
as
a
result
of
each
of
these
issues.
S
As
an
advocate
for
older
adults,
we
at
center
in
the
park
appreciate
city
council
holding
this
meeting
and
holding
this
hearing
to
begin
to
investigate
and
address
some
of
these
issues
surrounding
the
tool
that
could
be
very
beneficial
and
should
be
more
consumer
focused
and
relieve
many
older
adults
for
the
worry
around
how
to
stay
in
their
homes
and
communities
as
they
age.
Thank
you
for
your
time.
A
K
Thank
you.
Councilwoman
walker
and
councilwoman
blackwell
councilwoman
brown
and
my
councilwoman
cindy
bass
took
off
and
left.
I
know
she
had
other
things
to
do.
I
was
hoping
she
was
going
to
be
here
because
I
live
in
her
district.
I'm
going
to
make
my
comments
really
brief.
Now
I'm
going
to
reiterate
I'm
just
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
my
personal
experience,
tragically
parallelly
speaking,
some
of
the
things
that
happened
to
me
happened
to
the
the
woman
back
there.
That
testified.
K
K
My
mother
was
an
esteemed
professor
at
community
college.
She
did
a
25-year
run
there
and
then,
shortly
after
she
retired
she
began
to
get
ill
and
her
health
began
to
spiral
down
and
she
had
dementia
and
we
looked
at
putting
her
at
home
and
we
decided
that
wasn't
we
wanted
to
keep
her
home.
So
I
went
to
a
housing
seminar
and
I
met
someone
from
wells
fargo
there.
They
said
you
know
what,
if
your
name
isn't
on
the
deeds
of
the
house,
you
probably
need
to
look
at
getting
a
reverse
mortgage.
K
I
researched
it
went
home,
looked
to
see
it
and
looked
before
it's
read
money
magazine
and
they
had
nothing
but
good
things
to
say
about
wells
fargo.
They
were
the
best
in
the
business
as
far
as
reverse
mortgage.
They
made
it
easy.
The
terms
were
flexible,
so
forth,
and
so
on.
So
I
reached
out
to
them
spoke
with
an
agent
there
and
we
proceeded
forward,
and
everything
was
fine.
K
Until
until
the
day
that
I
had
to
sign
the
papers
for
the
mortgage
reverse
mortgage,
they
were
taking
seven
thousand
dollars
off
the
top
for
the
loan.
I
pushed
myself
away
from
the
table
and
said.
Excuse
me.
I
have
to
catch
my
breath,
seven
thousand
dollars
really
for
a
hundred
and
eighteen
thousand
dollar
loan,
the
lady
who
was
not
even
the
real
agent
because
the
agent
was
out
of
town.
They
sent
someone
else.
There
said
well.
These
are
the
terms
I'm
just
here
to
do
the
paperwork.
K
I
found
myself
in
a
juxtaposition
because
I
had
to
do
something
to
take
care
of
my
mother.
As
her
personal
situation
would
spill
out
of
control.
I
signed
the
papers.
We
didn't
have
any
more
problems
after
that.
Until
my
mother
passed
away
the
week
after
my
mother
passed
away,
the
bank
called
me
and
said,
while
I'm
making
arrangements
to
lay
my
mother
to
rest,
we
want
to
come
in
and
praise
the
house.
K
I
said
no,
you
don't
and
I
hung
the
phone
up
because
I
thought
it
was
indignant
and
insensitive
of
them
to
do
that
when
they
know
that
most
people
are
making
preparations
the
next
week
to
bury
their
loved
ones.
I
called
the
bank
back
and
I
said
now:
if
you
want
to
come
and
appraise
the
house,
that's
fine.
He
said.
Oh,
no,
don't
worry
about
that
next
thing.
You
know
I'm
getting
letters
in
the
mail
from
a
agency
that
apparently
is
hired
by
wells
fargo
to
see
if
the
property
is
occupied.
K
Now
they
already
knew
that
I
was
the
executor
of
her
estate
because
they
had
gotten
the
papers
and
they
already
knew
that.
I
signed
the
loan
for
her.
They
tried
to
say
that
I
was
not
on
the
paperwork
anywhere.
They
gave
that
that's
when
it
all
started
so
long
story
short
a
couple
of
years
later,
I'm
still
having
problems
with
wells
fargo
I
had
to
threaten
them.
K
K
Excuse
me
foreclosed
on
the
property,
so
here
I
am
running
back
and
forth
to
city
hall.
I
got
several
states.
I
went
before
dodge
id
fox
a
whole
bunch
of
other
judges.
I
labeled
good
stays.
I
even
went
to
the
mortgage
foreclosure
diversion
program.
Wells,
fargo,
sat
in
the
room
had
me
sit
there
for
four
hours.
They
never
talked
to
me.
They
got
up
and
left.
They
talked
to
every
other
client
down
there.
But
me
when
I
called
wells
fargo.
The
next
day
they
said,
we
don't
have
anything
to
do
with
it.
K
K
So
here
we
are
with
fannie
mae
fannie
mae
and
I'm
sorry
if
I
offend
anyone
in
the
room,
but
fannie
mae
is
the
worst
of
the
worst.
They
are
horrible.
I
called
them
they
kept
telling
me
they
insisted
they
have
no
record
of
ever
having
purchased
my
house,
I
said:
well,
that's
very
interesting
because
on
the
city
docket
it
has
my
address
listed
as
sold
to
you.
What
do
you
mean
you?
Don't
we
don't
have
it?
I
called
them
for
months
and
months
and
months
and
months
and
nothing
so
to
me.
K
There
was
a
planned
and
conceived
way
to
get
my
house
from
under
me
part
of
the
reason.
Why
is
because
my
particular
case
got
national
attention?
I
was
in
the
media
because
I
refused
to
leave
my
house.
I
sent
a
very
clear
and
concise
message
to
several
people,
including
julian
williams,
and
I
said
I
will
not
leave
under
these
terms.
I
don't
have
a
right
to
protect
myself
and
I'm
not
going
to
leave
so
he
anted
up
and
he
made
it
personal.
K
I'm
I'm
telling
the
way
it
really
happened
so
long
story
short
after
I
was
in
the
philadelphia
papers.
Then
I
started
getting
interviews
from
the
chicago
sun
times
the
los
angeles
times
the
boston
herald.
You
can
google
it
so
anyway,
we
had
rallies
in
front
of
my
house
and
the
media
was
coming
out.
In
fact,
lance
was
even
at
a
couple
of
those
and
next
thing
I
know
they
show
up.
They
tried
to
get
in
my
house,
they
couldn't
get
in.
K
They
came
back
again
two
months
later
and
this
time
they
got
in
and
the
deputy
stood
in
my
face
and
said
you
have
to
get
out
now.
I
said:
don't
stand
here
in
my
house.
This
is
still
my
house
until
the
day
is
over
and
they
got
nasty
with
me.
So
the
short
of
it
is
this
is
a
different
side
of
what
you've
been
hearing
about.
This
is
the
ugly
side
now
in
some
nation,
I'm
going
to
wrap
this
up.
K
K
K
K
I
made
my
way
into
the
back
gate
of
my
property
and
the
man
whom
I
just
spoke
to
ran
in
front
of
me
and
slammed
the
door
in
my
face,
so
I
could
not
get
in
the
house
next
thing.
I
know
a
lady
appears
who
introduces
herself
as
the
reo
agent
she's
in
my
kitchen.
Then
an
appraiser
appears
the
agent
says
they're
assessing
the
property,
so
I
start
walking
through
the
house
to
see
what
is
taking
place.
K
K
K
I
set
a
date
and
we
confirmed
it.
I
asked
her
why
it
was
so
difficult
to
get
to
the
reo
division
of
fannie
mae.
She
stated
she
doesn't
work
with
that
division.
She
works
with
another,
a
division
of
fannie
mae
and
that
once
fannie
mae
acquires
a
property,
it's
sealed
and
there's
really
no
way
to
get
it
back,
so
we're
going
from
there.
But
anyway,
the
point
is
one
of
the
topical
things
is
that
in
pennsylvania
there
is
no
right
of
rescission.
K
K
I
was
not
afforded
the
opportunities
that
I
should
have
had
through
the
mortgage
diversion
program
or
any
other
entity.
Most
times
when
I
went,
I
went
to
community
legal
services,
they
told
me,
we
can't
help
you,
because
we
don't
deal
in
reverse
mortgages.
What
that
says
is
reverse
mortgages
are
a
very
extremely
complex
tool
and
they
are
not
for
the
average
person.
It
really
is.
For
somebody
who
does
not
have
airship,
it
is
really
for
somebody
who
once
they
pass
away.
K
A
Yes,
let
me
ask
for
our
elected
officials
sheriff
bullock
and
karen
warrington.
Would
you
all
like
to
testify?
You
want
to
hear
the
rest
of
the
panel
and
we
thank
you
for
coming,
certainly
for
congressman
brady,
sir,
certainly
for
bob
casey.
We
thank
you
for
representing
our
federal
officials
and
for
being
here.
Thank
you.
Both.
A
H
Good
afternoon
good
evening,
thank
you
for
your
testimony.
Yes,
I
want
to
make
sure
I'm
I'm
rechecking
the
facts.
I
need
you
to
clarify
so
as
a
a
part
of
your
agency's
protocol.
Counseling
on
this
issue
is
one
of
the
check
offs
for
council
counselors.
At
your
agency
correct,
I
counseling
around
reverse
mortgages
around.
R
H
R
R
R
P
R
H
Add
to
their
protocols
when
landlords
want
to
come
and
seek
l,
I
licensing
that
they
have
to
verify
that
they
are
providing
information
to
their
tenants
around
lead
and
that
can
be
reflected
in
the
lease.
It
could
be
reflected
in
the
brochure
that
they
hand
out,
but
it's
a
standard
requirement,
alerting
landlords
being
required
to
alert
tenants
that
if
your
building
was
built
before
1967,
then
they're
required
to
educate.
You
inform
you
about
the
perils
of
lead,
so.
B
A
C
Thank
you
we
have,
and
while
ohcd
is
here,
we're
asking
a
cls
to
come
this
and
it'll
be
very
quick.
We
want
to
go
back
to
this
issue
of
counseling,
and
that
was
one
of
the
first
questions
we
asked
and
I'm
glad
you
mentioned,
that
again
accounts
council,
lady,
reynolds
brown,
because
when
we
talked
about
two-
and
we
mentioned
that
there
we
questioned
whether
or
not
there
were
two
reverse
mortgage
housing,
counseling
agencies
in
philadelphia,
and
that
was
clarified
one
of
them.
C
What
we
just
heard
was
that
all
reverse
mortgage
counselors
have
to
be
heckle
certified.
Is
that
accurate?
That
is
correct?
Okay,
and
with
that
being
said,
I
want
you
to
tell
us
more
because
our
attorney
general's
office
is
paying
very
close
attention
to
that.
So,
in
the
midst
of
testimony,
they've
asked
these
questions.
C
C
Is
it
over
the
telephone
with
someone
in
california
or
someone
in
chicago
or
someone
in
another
place,
or
am
I
sitting
face
to
face
with
someone,
or
is
this
literally
someone
being
able
to
say
I've
met
the
housing
counseling
requirement
to
to
get
through
this
process,
and
I
can
now
just
check
it
check
it
off
the
list.
Are
there
any
documents
review?
Can
you
all
answer
that
and
I
want
to
see
between
cls
and
you
all.
You
all
could
answer
that
for
us.
C
D
C
C
E
C
Let
me
ask
you
this,
and
this
is-
and
this
is
why
this
has
come
up.
Obviously
I'm
biased,
because
we
know
you
all
and
we
know
your
work,
but
I
don't
know
the
guys
we're
having
a
conversation
with
on
the
telephone
who
are
in
another
state
and
I'm
just
trying
to
figure
out.
Is
there
a
financial
incentive
directly
attached
to
the
the
the
counseling
and
are
the
agencies
again
outside
of
those
who
we
know
and
work
with
are?
Are
they
feeling
an
incentive
to
close.
D
C
C
C
I
I
asked
you
whether
or
not
that
prior
that
once
the
loan
closes
is,
would
you
say
that
because
the
counseling
has
to
take
place
before
the
loan
can
get
to
the
underwriting
stage,
that
a
counseling
agency
can
feel
that
they
are
incentivized,
because
they
know
that
they
will
not
get
paid
until
the
loan
closes?
Am
I
making
sense
to
you
now?
C
C
So
you
don't
see
an
incentive
and
that's
our
question.
The
question
was
for
those
housing
counseling
agencies
that
are
not
operating
in
the
city
of
philadelphia.
Do
we
need
to
sort
of
make
a
note
about
whether
or
not
there's
a
direct
connection
between
the
transaction
and
the
counseling
service
they
provide
and
any
any
incentive
right.
D
There's
definitely
a
strong
benefit
to
that.
But,
as
peter
mentioned,
the
counseling
happens
after
the
sales
pitch,
and
they
are
all
the
right
reasons
why
they
need
to
get
this
loan
and
they
should.
You
know
they
have
to
get
this
loan
and
oftentimes.
The
counseling
is
checking
the
box
getting
a
certificate
sending
it
through
underwriting.
E
Most
of
the
clients
that
we
counsel
have
been
referred
to
us
by
lenders,
like
the
lenders,
told
told
the
client
to
seek
counseling.
They
gave
them
a
list
of
you
know
counselors
and
then
that's
how
they
came
to
counseling.
So
they've
already
made
a
conscious
decision
to
get
the
loan,
and
this
is
just
the
step.
That's
needed
to
complete
the
process.
F
However,
it's
possible
to
simply
go
through
a
checklist
of
points
and
make
sure
that
you
say
all
the
things
that
are
required
without
really
ascertaining
that
the
borrower
really
understands
any
of
what
you're
saying
and
if
you
or,
if
you
go
through
all
of
that,
then
you've
completed
the
counseling.
Whether
or
not
the
borrower
really
understands
anything.
C
Well,
listen.
I
want
to
thank
you
all
for
trying
to
sort
of
get
to
the
heart
of
that
question
and
I
just
want
to
add
for
the
record
that
the
consumer
financial
protection
bureaus
of
reverse
mortgages
report
to
congress
very
specifically
talks
about
some
of
the
challenges
as
it
relates
to
counseling
and
reverse
mortgages,
and
it
talks
about-
and
I'm
very
specifically-
and
I
just
want
you
all
to
just
noted-
for
the
record.
Some
counseling
agencies
only
receive
payment.
C
If
and
when
the
reverse.
Mortgage
is
closed.
The
counseling
fee
is
paid
with
loan
proceeds
which
could
undermine
counselors
impartiality.
So
I
don't
I
don't
I
don't.
I
am
not
offended
that
you
were
all
so
shocked
by
the
possibility
because
you
are
clarified,
but
we
do
want
to
note
for
the
record
that
we
sort
of
did
not
pull
that
connection
between
the
closing
of
a
reverse
mortgage
loan
and
a
financial
incentive
for
the
housing
counseling
agency.
We
didn't
pull
it
out
of
the
sky
okay,
so
we
just
just
make
a
note.
F
Councilman
parker
there's
one
other
important
issue
around
counseling,
which
is
that
hud
does
not
require
that
non-borrowing
spouses
participate
in
the
counseling
and
does
not
require
that
other
family
members
participate
in
the
housing
in
the
counseling,
even
if
they
they
are
starting
out
as
a
co-owner
of
the
property
and
will
be
signing
their
interests
away
as
part
of
the
loan
process.
Hud
quote:
unquote,
encourages
them
to
be
included,
but
that
encouragement
doesn't
mean
anything
because
there's
no
teeth.
H
Much
yes,
we
want
to
get
as
much
information
on
the
record
as
possible
because,
as
the
sponsor
said,
this
is
an
investor
investigatory
step
and
she
needs
as
much
information
as
possible
for
the
next
step
of
action.
Is
there
a
suitability
requirement
by
the
potential-
and
forgive
me
if
I
miss
this
during
testimony
by
the
the
potential
banking
institution
that
will
get
the
mortgage?
In
other
words,
do
they
have
a
checklist
that
helps
to
determine
if
this
particular
individual
is
suitable,
positioned
financially
to
even
think
about
a
reverse
mortgage.
F
Now,
as
part
of
the
underwriting
process,
there
did
not
used
to
be
so.
There
are
a
lot
of
homeowners
in
existing
reverse
mortgages
who
got
into
them
without
any
evaluation
of
their
suitability
for
new
loans.
There
is
a
process,
I'm
not
familiar,
it's
it's
new
enough
that
I'm
not
familiar
with
how
it
plays
out
and
whether
it's
working
or
not.
H
C
I
know
we're
going
to
close,
but
before
we
do,
I
want
to
again
just
repeat
for
the
record
a
special
thanks
to
each
of
you.
I
want
to
thank
the
staff
for
all
of
their
hard
work.
I
know
you
know
it
it's
long,
it's
like
marathon
right,
not
a
sprint.
Definitely,
but
as
councilwoman
reynolds
brown
just
noted.
C
The
purpose
of
this
is
to
get
all
of
this
testimony
on
the
record
and
as
we
comb
through
all
of
your
responses
and
comments,
we
will
then
help
to
put
together
from
an
intergovernmental
perspective,
with
our
federal
partners
and
our
state
partners,
specific
remedies
and
obviously,
with
the
with
our
city
administration,
specific
remedies
that
we
think
that
we
can
work
to
get
implemented
at
each
level
of
government
some
via
a
legislative
process.
Some
things
just
can
happen
from
a
a
policy
implementation
perspective.
C
So
I
thank
all
of
you
we're
going
to
be
bringing
the
working
group
back
together
and
for
those
who
are
sitting
here
saying
we
got
all
of
this
great
information,
but
there
were
no
lenders
here
today,
someone
saying
where
the
lenders
we
knew
how
much
time
this
would
take.
So
as
we
invite
the
lenders
to
the
next
hearing,
we
won't
be
able
to
say
to
them
cold.
Just
come
to
a
hearing,
we'll
be
able
to
say
here's
the
testimony
from
the
first
hearing.
Please
take
a
look
at
this
after
you've
reviewed
this
now.
C
I
want
to
thank
you
to
the
staff,
all
the
council
members,
but
to
you
councilwoman
blackwell,
madam
chair,
you
stayed
in
there
with
us
today
as
as
usual,
and
I
just
want
you
to
know.
I'm
grateful
councilwoman
and
to
all
of
the
members
of
the
committee
who
were
here
today.
They've
had
a
thousand
and
one
things,
but
they
made
this
a
priority.
So
thank
you.