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From YouTube: Special Committee on Criminal Justice Reform 10-26-2020
Description
The Special Committee on Criminal Justice Reform of the Council of the City of Philadelphia held a Public Hearing on Monday, October 26, 2020, at 4:30 PM, in a remote manner using Microsoft® Teams to hear testimony on the following items:
200565 Resolution authorizing the City Council Special Committee on Criminal Justice Reform to hold public hearings that will serve as a listening session for the public to weigh in on what a new Citizens Police Oversight Commission would look like if approved on the Nov. 3, 2020 General Election.
C
C
C
By
continuing
to
be
in
this
meeting,
you
are
consenting
to
being
reported
additionally
prior
to
councilman
jones,
recognizing
members
for
questions
or
comments
they
have
for
witnesses.
I
will
note
for
the
record
at
this
time
that
we
will
use
the
chat
feature
available
in
microsoft
teams
to
allow
members
to
signify
that
they
wish
to
be
recognized
in
order
to
comply
with
the
sunshine
act.
The
chat
feature
must
only
be
used
for
this
purpose.
Thank
you.
B
C
C
B
C
Resolution
number
200565
authorizing
the
city
council
special
committee
on
criminal
justice
reform
to
hold
public
hearings
that
will
serve
as
a
listening
session
for
the
public
to
weigh
in
on
what
a
new
citizens
police
oversight.
Commission
would
look
like
if
approved
on
the
november
3rd
2020
general
election.
B
B
We
hope
to
establish
a
dedicated
funding
stream
and
some
independence
from
political
wills
and
executive
orders,
so
that
there
is
a
predictability
as
to
where
citizens
can
register
a
complaint
where
citizens
can
have
that
complaint
heard
and
where
the
public
can,
in
a
transparent
manner,
view
those
complaints
to
their
conclusion.
In
addition,
I'd
like
to
offer
my
co-chairs
an
opportunity
to
say
a
few
words
as
well,
we'll
start
with
defender
greg.
E
Thank
you
so
much
councilman
jones,
and
I
too
echo
your
sentiments
of
why
this
is
really
a
major
advancement
for
the
city
of
philadelphia.
I
do
want
to
remind
us
that
the
city
of
philadelphia,
I
believe,
was
the
first
to
implement
a
police
advisory
commission
and
since
then,
major
cities
around
the
country
have
perfected
it
more.
E
We
have
found
that
the
response
to
citizens
have
been
very
low.
Whatever
the
reasons
are,
this
is
something
that
is
kind
of
perpetuated.
The
mistrust
between
citizens
and
police
departments-
it
is
something
that
can
be
fixed
and
easily
fixed
and
have
a
huge
impact
on
the
way
police
and
the
way
citizens
view
the
process
by
which
they
are
to
be
protected
against
officers
who
abuse
their
power
in
their
opinions
doesn't
mean
that
everything's
going
to
be
perfect,
but
sunshine
is
corruption's
natural
disinfectant.
E
E
People
who
are
trusted
with
protecting
and
serving
our
community
should
have
the
same,
and
I
believe
that
this
police
oversight
commission,
once
we
figure
out
what
it
should
look
like
and
should
act
under
certain
guys,
will
be
the
answer
that
the
city
has
been
looking
for.
So
thank
you
very
much
for
sponsoring
this
or
having
this
hearing.
I
can't
wait
to
hear
from
all
of
the
people
who
will
be
testifying
on
behalf
of
this
bill.
Thank.
B
You
defender
gray,
and
I
want
to
take
a
moment
to
also
recognize
mark
tyler,
who
has
tirelessly
spent
time
listening
to
the
community
and
doing
a
lot
of
the
legwork
to
try
to
get
a
balanced
approach
of
what
may
be
useful
once
this
november.
Third
ballot
is
considered,
and
god
willing
passed-
and
I
wanted
to
thank
him
personally
and
on
the
record
for
that
type
of
involvement
as
a
as
a
citizen
in
philadelphia.
That
makes
me
proud.
E
Has
worked
with
power
and
live
free
for
at
least
two
and
a
half
years
on
this
and
reverend
tyler
and
his
you
know.
Massive
amount
of
activists
community
has
never
wavered
on
this
issue
and,
in
fact,
has
educated
me
on
a
lot
of
things.
So
I
thank
him
tremendously
for
everything
that
he
and
the
livery
coalition
has
done.
B
C
Yes,
mr
chairman,
before
I
call
up
the
first
panel,
I
just
wanted
to
acknowledge
that
judge.
Deleon
is
a
member
of
the
committee
and
is
now
present
and
that
we
are
also
joined
by
council
members,
thomas
gatier
and
brooke,
and
we
are
also
joined
by
anthony
arashi.
Who
is
the
new
acting
executive
director
of
the
police,
advisory
commission
and
policy.
Analyst
angelica
hendricks
of
the
police
advisory
commission,
who
are
available
for
any
questions
that
members
of
the
committee
might
have
for
them.
C
B
B
H
Okay,
thank
you
good
afternoon,
good
afternoon.
My
name
is
judith
max
palmer.
My
interest
in
police
accountability
led
me
to
an
internship
at
the
police
advisory
commission,
where
I
had
the
opportunity
to
see
our
local
efforts
at
oversight.
Up
close,
the
limitations
of
the
pac
were
obvious
and
must
not
be
repeated
in
the
next
oversight
body.
I
sat
in
on
audits
of
investigations
performed
by
internal
affairs
and
discovered
that
internal
affairs
officers
who
investigate
other
officers
with
complaints
against
them
aren't
even
necessarily
trained
as
detectives.
H
H
Everything
often
people
demand
that
a
new
board
have
that
that
the
new
board
have
subpoena
power
and
many
don't
realize
the
pack
does
in
fact
have
subpoena
power,
but
does
not
exert
it.
Why?
Because
they
are
housed
under
the
managing
director's
office,
as
is
the
ppd,
and
while
this
was
never
really
explained
to
me
in
a
manner
that
I
could
really
understand.
H
The
best
I
could
make
of
it
was
that
if
the
pack
subpoenaed
the
ppd,
the
ppd
would
fight
it
and
lawyers
would
get
involved
and
it
would
cost
a
lot
of
money
and
it
would
be
an
internal
war
in
the
mbo's
office.
So
what
this
tells
us
is
that,
in
order
for
the
oversight
board
to
be
effective,
it
needs
to
be
a
completely
autonomous
entity.
H
H
How
are
six
people
supposed
to
provide
oversight
to
a
police
department
of
seven
thousand
seven
hundred
oversight
bodies
in
other
major
cities
have
funding
equivalent
to
one
to
two
percent
of
the
police
department
they
oversee
and
we
deserve
no
less,
and
let
me
be
clear
that
money
must
come
from
the
existing
police
budget.
They
have
over
700
million
dollars
of
taxpayer
money.
They
can
spend
seven
million
on
oversight.
They
spend
that
much
of
our
money
on
laundry
every
year.
They
got
that
much
from
us
for
overtime
during
five
days
of
our
protests.
H
Against
their
brutality
this
summer
they
don't
need
more
money.
There's
a
lot
of
turnover
on
the
current
commission.
Commissioners
don't
get
paid,
they
should
get
paid.
I
recommend
the
current
police
budget
for
that
funding
as
well,
and
really
commissioners
should
be
elected
like
a
school
board,
but,
however
they're
selected,
they
should
reflect
philadelphia,
especially
the
black
and
brown
communities
that
are
most
affected
by
police.
H
We've
all
heard
about
cases
where
officers
had
been
fired
and
gotten
their
jobs
back.
Yes,
under
the
current
contract
between
the
city
and
the
fop
officers,
can
grieve
employment
terminations
and
have
those
grievances
resolved
by
an
arbitrator.
Having
said
that,
I
learned
about
many
cases
when
the
police
commissioner
failed
to
follow
proper
procedure
in
firing
a
bad
cop
or
the
fop
hired
aggressive
attorneys
to
support
their
bad
apple
members
and
the
department
just
failed
to
make
their
case.
So
what
this
tells
us
is
that
it's
easier
to
fire
bad
cops.
H
If
you
actually
invest
some
effort
and
expertise
into
the
process,
the
new
oversight
board
should
have
final
authority
over
recruitment
training
and
hiring,
but
also
firing
if
it's
adequately
funded
and
staffed.
It
should
be
much
more
effective,
I'll
close
with
the
biggest
surprise
of
my
time
at
the
pack,
and
that
is
what
officers
themselves
told
me
about
their
job
and
co-workers.
H
They
told
me
the
issues
that
drive
crime
are
complex.
We
can't
just
arrest
our
way
out
of
them.
They
told
me
we
deal
with
people
at
their
worst
and
if
we're
not
careful,
we
become
that
they
told
me
it's
a
toxic
culture.
It's
us
against
them.
We
treat
people
like
garbage
and
then
wonder
why
they
hate
us.
H
All
these
officers
believe
that
the
philly
pd
just
needs
some
work,
they're,
not
naive
or
indifferent,
but
they
believe
in
policing,
and
what
this
tells
us
is
that
even
the
best
police
in
the
city
still
think
they
got
this
there's
problems
but
they're
working
on
them
and
what
the
history
of
the
department,
and
especially
their
behavior
this
summer
tells
us
is
that
they
don't
and
we
need
you
to
do
it
and
do
it
right.
Please
provide
strong
and
effective
oversight.
Thank
you
for
your
time.
B
D
D
It
is
obvious
that
the
community
has
had
their
concerns
about
police
conduct,
not
only
in
the
city
but
across
the
country.
In
recent
months
and
years,
those
concerns
has
have
skyrocketed
due
to
the
media
coverage
of
high
profile
deaths
at
the
hands
of
police
officers
during
arrests
or
investigations
that
have
escalated
into
tragedy.
D
Adding
the
public
outrage
outrage.
Information
that
slowly
trickles
out
to
the
public
is
a
mixed
bag
of
facts,
lies,
speculations
and
assumptions,
and
promoting
this
hearing
I
have
noticed
the
hashtag
who
polices
the
police.
I
understand
the
public's
distrust
of
the
police
department.
It
is
warranted,
but
under
some
circumstances
not
deserved.
The
media
has
focused
on
terrible
actions
and
decisions
made
by
officers
that
unfortunately
reflect
on
their
fellow
officers
who
put
their
lives
on
the
line
every
day
they
have
their
uniform
on.
D
If
the
overstep
committee
is
enacted,
what
I
would
not
want
to
see
is
a
bandwagon
effect
in
persecuting
officers
in
the
realm
of
public
opinion,
and
in
making
that
statement,
I
have
two
suggestions
that
I
would
like
to
see
implemented
into
the
committee.
My
first
suggestion
is
every
member
of
the
committee
should
go
through
the
academy.
Just
like
a
recruit,
I
don't
mean
visiting
the
academy
just
to
observe
I
actually
mean
going
through
every
aspect
of
the
academy,
from
studying
and
taking
exams
to
the
physical
training
as
well.
D
D
Even
in
this
description
of
deadly
force,
the
shooting
is
meant
to
maximize
the
chance
of
incapacitating
a
suspect.
The
intent
is
not
to
kill,
but,
as
we
all
know,
there
are
cases
where
the
suspect
does
die
of
his
injuries.
Hence
the
term
lethal
or
deadly
force.
Another
example
of
public
criticism
that
I
hear
is:
why
do
they
have
to
shoot
them
so
many
times
that's
excessive
force.
D
This
question
can
and
be
answered
simply
by
putting
in
the
search
on
youtube
or
the
internet
of
suspects
being
shot
and
still
functioning
or
performing
actions
as
if
nothing
ever
happened
to
them.
This
is
another
reason
why
officers
do
not
aim
for
limbs.
Suspects
can
still
have
the
ability
to
slash
with
a
knife
or
shoot
back.
D
My
second
suggestion
is
smaller
scope,
but
just
as
important
ride,
alongs
with
officers
of
every
police
district.
For
as
long
as
you
serve
on
the
committee,
whether
this
is
a
weekly
or
monthly
in
the
beginning,
then
tapered
off
the
quarterly.
I
don't
have
an
idea
as
to
the
frequency,
but
I
think
it's
important
to
witness
what
the
difference
is
between
training
versus
real
word
out
real
world
activity.
D
Again,
if
suggestions
are
to
be
made
on
training
level
or
out
on
patrol,
I
feel
committee
members
will
be
better
informed
to
weigh
in
on
those
issues.
I
think
rotating
through
every
district
will
help
committee
members
understand
that
every
district
has
unique
characteristics
and
are
dealing
with
issues
that
are
unique
to
that
district.
Some
districts
are
known
to
have
more
shootings
than
others.
Some
districts
may
be
known
for
more
property
crimes
than
shootings
as
an
example.
D
In
closing,
I
would
like
to
reiterate
that
I
understand
why
oversight
committee
is
needed,
but
I
also
would
like
to
make
sure
that
such
a
committee
does
not
turn
into
a
witch
hunt.
I
don't
I
don't
want
to
see
officers
choosing
not
to
act
in
fear
of
being
prosecuted.
I
don't
want
to
see
officers
feeling
demoralized
due
to
public
opinion
based
on
the
misbehavior
of
a
few.
D
B
E
E
I
I
If
the
ballot
question
succeeds,
the
language
around
the
new
cpoc
should
stress
a
service
aspect
and
that
as
an
investigative
body,
it
must
be
adversarial
to
police,
both
with
the
group,
violence,
initiative
and
ppd's
review
of
its
own
facial
recognition
technology
and
going
back
in
publicly
available
documentation
for
at
least
a
decade.
The
pbd's
relationship
with
the
police
advisory
committee
was
construed
as
collaborative
a
word
used
over
and
over
again
on
both
sides
like
with
the
refusal
to
subpoena
as
a
citizen.
This
blew
me
away.
I
My
testimony
today
is
driven
by
exasperation
with
that
situation,
especially
as
someone
who
reads
through
this
public
output
of
these
interactions,
hoping
for
something
otherwise
and
hoping
to
take
my
lead
from
those
who
are
the
paid
watchdogs.
Simply
put.
You
cannot
properly
oversee
someone
that
you
are
hand
in
hand
with,
but
the
inherent
power
and
balance
between
a
mammoth
bloated
police
infrastructure
and
an
advisory
group
that,
at
its
end,
was
so
small
mayor
kenny
appeared
to
have
forgotten
about
it
this
summer.
I
That's
a
recipe
for
the
sort
of
ineffective
efforts
that
we've
seen
ppdn's
watchdog
must
have
a
relationship,
but
it
cannot
be
a
partnership.
In
fact,
part
of
the
failure
in
stemming
the
tide
of
tragedy
in
the
city
has
been
that
exact,
undue
deference
to
law
enforcement,
lacking
capacity
for
real-time
review,
empowerment
to
censure
and
sanction,
and
the
funding
needed
has
meant
that
even
polite
suggestions
are
met
with
a
yes,
sir,
or
a
yes
ma'am
and
no
change
in
behavior.
I
Where
the
pac
experience
shortcomings,
the
cpoc
presents
a
fresh
start,
that
is,
it
must
be
a
tool
of
oversight,
rather
than
partnership
from
the
get-go.
Accountability
cannot
and
will
not
come
from
advice.
Building
an
adversarial
approach
into
its
existence
is
necessary
beyond
just
a
change
in
tone.
Numerous
studies
show
that
adversarial
administrative
systems
are
less
prone
to
abuse
and
more
effective
in
preempting
patterns
of
offense
change.
Right
now
doesn't
seem
like
it's
on
the
horizon.
I
It
feels
like
it's
being
called
for
in
the
streets,
but
in
less
than
34
hours
after
their
community
day
was
healing.
The
philly
police
were
caught
on
camera,
throwing
full
punches
at
a
detained
miner
without
philly
youth
leveraging
social
media.
That
abuse
would
have
been
covered
up.
A
properly
funded
service
and
oversight.
I
The
only
way
that
it's
proposed
investigatory
powers
can
lead
to
reparative
ends
is
by
setting
that
tone
from
the
beginning.
That's
where
the
language
in
the
ordinances
around
its
formation
can
prove
so
important.
I
urge
the
council
to
ensure
the
cpoc,
as
inaugural
members
know,
that
they're
mandated
to
be
fully
independent
and
adversarial
with
a
specific
mandate
to
review,
monitor,
investigate
and
act
as
a
clearinghouse
to
promote
public
memory
and
the
public
interest,
building
on
and
expanding
the
successful
denver
and
phoenix
models.
I
I
Transparency
must
be
paramount,
but
sunlight
is
not
enough.
We
don't
need
vitamin
d.
We
need
consistent
change
in
outcomes
for
recurring
issues,
because
sunshine
falls
on
everyone,
but
sometimes
you
want
someone
standing
beside
you
within
the
community,
not
above
it
shining
a
light
forward.
Only
with
that
break
in
the
past,
in
how
the
cpoc
has
planted
itself
and
how
all
members
are
told
to
view
their
membership
of
the
commission
will
be
able
to
grow
into
the
mechanism
of
accountability.
That
I
really
and
truly
believe
that
it
can
be.
B
H
B
B
H
B
H
Give
under
the
current
configuration
of
the
pack,
I
don't
think,
there's
anything
else
that
we
could
do.
One
of
the
things
that
we
would
have
liked
would
have
been
if
the
officers
who
performed
investigations
at
least
had
the
minimum
of
being
trained
as
detectives
so
that
they
knew
how
to
perform
investigations,
which
is
something
that
would
be
available
to
them.
But
what
I
think
needs
to
happen
is
the
pac
needs
to
be
able
to
go
in
and
do
investigations
themselves
or
the
the
new
oversight
board
got
it
because
we
had
to
request
anything.
B
Well,
I
just
want
you
to
know
you
eliminated
me
as
ever
being
a
member
of
that
commission,
I've
been
up
and
visited
the
academy
on
a
number
of
occasions
and
could
not
begin
to
do
the
physical
or
or
some
of
the
judgment
calls
there.
But
I
understand
the
spirit
of
what
you
you
mentioned.
How
could
we
get
people,
commissioners
better
in
tune
with
what
officers
go
through
every
day
without
having
to
actually
pass
the
academy?
Is
there
any
other.
D
D
Do
that?
No,
I
I
that
was
a
a
little
bit
of
tongue-in-cheek
council
member.
I
I
don't
mean
actually
going
through
the.
I
believe.
It's
maybe
eight
months
now,
seven
months,
I
I
don't
know
exactly
how
long
the
training
is,
but
you
know,
and
obviously
you're
not
gonna
go
through
the
running
and
the
jumping
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
just
to
be
on
the
committee.
D
But
my
intent
was
just
to
have
a
better
balance
of
information
for
council
for
committee
members
so
that
they
could
just
basically
make
more
informed
decisions
so,
but
not
to
just
visit
the
academy
say
you
know
things
get
pointed
at
and
they
nod
their
head
and
simply
just
go
home
to
get
the
knowledge
that
recruits
are
getting
at
the
academy
to
see
how
they're
being
trained
and
how
they
implement
that
training
in
real
world
scenarios.
I
think
it's
vital
for
the
committee
to
understand
that.
B
Well,
one
of
the
things
that
my
colleagues
are
on
this
team's
meeting
hearing.
That
is
very
important.
We
have
to
create
laws
and
we
have
to
create
policies
that
go
all
the
way
back
to
the
training.
If
we're
going
to
hold
anyone
accountable,
you
mentioned
that
they're,
not
trained
officers,
aren't
trained
to
shoot
people
in
a
leg.
They
go
they're
trying
to
use
deadly
force,
and
if
that
is
true,
we
have
to
really
take
a
look
at
our
training
as
well
the
last
person
to
testify
what
was
their
name.
B
I
Absolutely
that
one
of
the
things
that
the
fresh
start
here
would
allow
to
happen
is
to
create
a
commission
that
sees
itself
fully
on
the
side
of
the
citizen
that
I
think,
and
I'm
sure
all
of
you
experience,
especially
when
things
return
from
being
so
virtual.
That
working
closely
with
someone
can
engender
good
fellow
feelings.
The
idea
that
you're
on
their
side
and
the
pac
at
least
as
of
late,
has
often
said.
I
I
That
says
that
they
are,
they
are
not
to
see
themselves
as
a
collaborative
member
that
they
are
fully
independent,
not
just
of
the
machinations
of
city
council,
but
fully
independent
of
pressure
from
ppd
or
even
ppd
in
a
hand,
a
friendship,
extending
and
saying,
let's
work
closely
together,
that
simply
put
cannot
be
their
job.
That
can
be
someone
else's
job,
but
if
that's
not
the
tone
from
the
get-go
saying
no,
we
are
here
to
be
your
watchdog,
because
you
haven't
shown
that
you
can
exist
without
this
sort
of
investigatory
body.
I
Looking
over
your
shoulder,
then
I
think
that
we
not
to
use
a
metaphor
that
is
maybe
important
before
shoot
ourselves
in
the
foot
from
the
get-go
that
we
need
to
set
it
up
so
that
there
is
a
distinct
break
between
the
pac
and
the
cpoc,
and
that
distinct
break
is
that
this
is
not
a
partnership.
This
is
not
a
collaboration.
This
is
a
new
commission
formed
purely
for
oversight
and
purely
to
advocate
for
citizens
against
police,
aggressions
and
police
abuses.
B
A
Thomas
thank
you
to
the
chairs
and
to
everybody
on
this
committee.
Thank
you
to
all
the
people
on
the
panel
who
testify
just
one
question
very
briefly
in
the
midst
of
us
thinking
about
what.
How
do
you
become
a
member
of
the
committee,
anticipating
that
the
citizens
do
vote
this
into
law?
There
were
a
number
of
different
recommendations
and
suggestions
that
I
heard
some
were
good
one.
A
In
particular,
I
have
a
question
about
so
I've
never
gone
through
the
police
academy,
I'm
not
quite
sure,
on
what
the
police
academy
and
training
consist
of.
I
do
think
it's
important
that
people
have
an
understanding
of
it,
but
I'm
wondering-
and
it
could
be
anybody
on
the
panel
that
answered
it.
I
know
I
think
it
was-
I
believe,
carlos,
mr
carlos,
who
asked
the
question,
but
I'm
wondering
how
realistic
is
it
for
people
to
to
go
through
that
training?
I'm
thinking
about.
A
Would
we
essentially
be
discriminating
against
you
know,
possibly
a
senior
citizen,
maybe
or
somebody
with
disabilities,
who
might
be
effective
but
might
not
be
able
to
go
through
some
of
the
physical
requirements.
So
I
just
in
the
midst
of
us
thinking
about
the
requirements
and
what
we
want
people
to
ask
for.
I
just
want
to
assure
we're
not
discriminating
against
any
group
of
people,
so
I
was
hoping
that
somebody
could
take
a
just
a
minute
or
so
to
maybe
answer
that
and
and
help
us
think
through
that
part
of
it.
Thank.
D
B
D
D
Obviously,
you
know
there
are
some
people
that
couldn't
handle
the
physical
aspects
of
the
training
you
know
and
to
your
point
of
not
being
discriminatory
against
folks.
That
may
not
have
the
the
attributes
to
to
take
examinations
of
that
sort,
but
at
least
to
have
a
good
faith
effort
to
understand
what
is
being
taught
at
the
academy
and
what
the
recruits
go
through,
so
that,
when
they're
done
at
the
academy
how
they
implement
that
training
in
real
life.
B
H
H
It
was
a
wide
range
of
large
to
small
issues
that
they
were
just
sampling
and
looking
at
them
to
see
what
kind
of
investigations
the
invent
internal
affairs
were
doing,
and
it
was
just
a
frequent
complaint
that
they
just
this
investigation,
was
not
performed.
Well,
I
can't
make
head
or
tail
of
what
actually
happened,
because
I
don't
have
enough
to
go
on
because
that
investigation
was
poorly
done,
but
I
can
say
that
the
pac
regularly
requests
information
and
it
either
doesn't
come
or
is
delayed
or
it
is
red,
acted
beyond
use.
H
E
E
E
But
I
do
want
to
ask
this
because
a
lot
of
things
that
we
saw
in
our
office
and
the
work
that
we've
been
doing
with
power
and
live
free
really
dealt
with
everyday
encounters
on
the
street
between
police
and
citizens,
which
didn't
really
require
an
extreme
immersion
in
police
tactics,
practices
or
policies.
It
really
had
to
do
with
human
to
human
contact
and
understanding
right
and
wrong.
I
mean
that
some
of
them
were
just
that
black
and
white.
E
If
an
officer
it
was
to
do
something
to
another
person
that
a
person
said,
you
know
what
this
is
not
right:
they
would
file
a
complaint.
Those
things
are
routine
in
some
of
the
the
complaint
data
that
we've
seen
and
so
with
that.
Is
it
your
understanding
that
civilians
cannot
handle
looking
at
these
everyday
ordinary
encounters
to
figure
out?
Was
there
something
that
was
not
done
accurately
or
could
have
been
done
better?
Or
is
there
a
reason
to
have
real
concern
for
this
particular
police
officer
and
their
behavior?
D
Believe
so
again,
I
I
think
for
members
of
the
committee
to
have
balanced
information
to
get
to
have
that
insight
from
all
aspects
of
trainings
through
the
rider
longs
this.
Basically,
what
a
police
officer
would
go
through
on
a
daily
basis
and
not
to
say
to
discount
the
public's
reaction
or
their
feelings
to
whatever
it
is
that
they've
encountered
or
witnessed,
which
is
why
I
think
the
oversight
committee
is
needed
again.
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
it's
not
one-sided
is
basically
my
point.
E
Should
the
person
also
walk
along
with
someone
in
the
communities
that
they
feel
like
are
over
policed
and
feel
and
see
how
they
are
are
targeted
or
treated
in
everyday
action?
Because
what
you
don't
want,
you
want
someone
to
have
a
very
good,
balanced
understanding
like
you
said,
and
there
are
people
that
really
go
through
certain
things
that
others
will
never
go
through
and
so
to
have
that
understanding
from
both
aspects
would
be
good.
D
E
Thank
you,
and,
and
last
I'm
sorry,
I
am
blank
mr
stanton
stinton.
I
I
understand
what
you
mean
by
adversarial
system.
I
work
in
a
system.
That's
adversarial
to
another
justice
partner,
which
is
the
district
attorney's
office
and
we
are
saying,
seem
to
be
adversarial
in
the
courtroom,
but
sometimes
when
we're
in
the
boardroom,
we
need
to
be
able
to
understand
the
goals
and
so
adversarial
in
the
sense
that
I
know
is
fighting
to
ram
my
position
down
someone
else's
throat.
E
That's
what
I
do
in
an
adversarial
area,
but
when
I
am
goal-oriented
and
principle-guided,
I
cannot
let
my
relationships
sacrifice
my
principles
and
I
do
not.
I
don't
care
how
much
I
like
the
person
or
how
much
I
like
what
they
say.
If
it,
what
you
do
doesn't
jive
with
the
principles
that
I
have
for
my
role,
that
is
where
we
draw
the
line.
Is
there
a
way
just
to
in
the
oversight
of
it
that
there
are
principles
that
whoever
will
have
this
position
cannot
deviate?
E
It
should
not
deviate
from
the
transparency,
and
I
get
you
say
you
don't
need
vitamin
d,
I
like
sunshine,
but
I
I
thought
your
analogy
was
pretty
clever.
In
any
event,
I
do
think
that
there
is
to
be
extremely
adversarial,
because
I
see
I
saw
it
in
my
role
as
a
public
defender
when
I
was
a
trial
attorney.
E
I
was
only
interested
in
winning
my
argument,
but
when
I
got
to
a
different
role,
when
I
understood
that
my
role
was
no
longer
just
to
ram
my
argument
down
someone's
throat
but
to
be
true
to
my
principles
and
use
that
and
kind
of
getting
to
what
the
heart
of
what
we
wanted,
would
that
not
be
enough
and
you're
saying
that
we
have
to
write
adversarial.
I've
seen
adversary,
work
counterproductively
when
it
comes
to
big
picture,
but
I
also
understand
I've
seen
relationships
pretty
much
delineate
principles
which
are
never
a
good
thing.
E
So,
where
is
that
kind
of
middle
ground
so
that
we
make
sure
that
people
aren't
adversarial
for
the
sake
of
being
adversarial,
because
I
know
what
that
looks
like
totally,
but
we
also
make
sure
that
people
aren't
sacrificing
their
principles
over
relationship,
and
I
also
know
what
that
looks
like
that.
I
hate
to
the
fullest.
So
what?
What
is
it
that
we
can
do
to
make
sure
that
neither
one
of
those
obscures
what
we're
trying
to
achieve.
I
I
certainly
appreciate
your
experience
there,
especially
coming
from
having
been
a
public
defender
in
that
situation,
if
the
inclusive,
if
the
inclusion
of
setting
the
tone
of
adversarialness
from
the
get-go
would
be
a
deal-breaker,
I'm
sure
that,
like
you,
said
from
a
idea
of
recruiting
people
of
principle,
you
could
create
principles
that
then
would
make
sure
that
the
cpoc
had
that
sort
of
relationship.
I
suppose,
without
sacrificing
like
saying
that
they
need
to
be
advocates
of
citizens
all
the
time.
I
That
said,
I
I
would
like
to
push
back
slightly,
which
is
to
say
that
I'm
sure
in
those
times
where
you're
adversarial
and
you're
pushing
really
hard
the
people
that
you
were
pushing
for
were
incredibly
thankful
for
your
efforts
and
that
they
always
came
first.
I
have
no
doubt
and
in
that
situation,
that's
where
I'm
proposing
that
be
the
change
and
the
risk
that
we
take
here
that
perhaps
if
cpoc
is
overstepping
and
we
need
to
in
two
or
four
years,
go
back
and
say
they
should
be
nicer
with
police.
I
That
would
be
a
wonderful
and
new
conversation
to
have
to
say
that
they're
holding
them
a
little
too
accountable.
They're,
being
a
little
too
mean
I'd
love
to
try
that
I
think
before
then,
in
order
to
make
sure
that
we
have
the
clean
break
between
a
past
that
didn't
meet
our
expectations
and
a
future.
That
holds
an
enormous
amount
of
promise
by
being
full
advocates
for
citizens
by
documenting
the
aggressions
and
acts
of
violence
that
they
go
through.
I
E
E
Now
I
have
to
go
at
you
in
a
way
that
people
know
what
my
principles
are
and
even
though,
I'm
no
longer
in
a
total
adversary
role,
I
don't
think
the
community
feels
that
I'm
not
for
them
100,
and
so
I
think
it
can
be
achieved.
You
don't
always
have
to
punch
to
get
what
you
want,
but
you
have
to
be
principled
and
make
people
respect
what
you're
trying
to
do.
E
So
that's
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
we
start
off
on
the
right
because
you
don't
want
you
know
I've
seen
people
be
adversarial
for
the
sake
of
being
adversarial,
and
then
they
would
forget
about
the
person
and
become
competitive
between
the
two
adversaries
and
that
I
think
is,
is
counterproductive
as
well.
But
I
do
understand
what
you're
trying
to
say.
I
I
do.
I
think,
there's
a
way
to
achieve
it.
E
I
Comes
up
around
there,
I
I
definitely
take
your
concerns
to
heart
in
that
way
as
well,
although
do
want
to
be
firm
that,
while
not
encouraging,
I
suppose,
to
be
adversarial
for
the
sake
of
adversarialness,
I
think
a
system
that,
from
an
administrative
standpoint,
is
looking
to
say
that
this
is
not
a
partnership
is
not
collaborative.
It
is
going
to
be
productive
out
of
its
own
oversight.
Functions
is
one
that
there
is
immense
potential
for,
and
I
do
look
forward
to
seeing
what
comes
out
of
these
panels
and
discussions.
C
H
Judah,
thank
you.
I
think
it
would
be
fully
within
the
scope
of
I
agree
with
chip's
analysis.
I
think
it's
excellent
and
in
terms
of
being
adversarial
for
the
sake
of
being
adversarial.
Yes,
of
course,
that
wouldn't
be
effective.
I
think
it
would
be
a
great
role
for
this
new
oversight
commission
to
tell
the
police
department
when
they've
made
improvements
and
when
they're
doing
well,
I
think
they
they
don't
have
to
be
just
telling
them
when
they're
doing
the
wrong
thing.
Thank
you.
C
F
Hi
everyone.
I
just
wanted
to
make
a
quick
comment
on
what
judith
and
and
chip
said
and
kind
of
piggy
pack
off
of
what
keir
said,
which
was
I
mean,
there's,
there's
adversarial
and
there's
collaborative
and
it
an
oversight.
Professional
and
disciplined
oversight
has
to
be
a
blend
of
the
two
we
are.
I
don't.
I
thought
it
was
interesting
when
we
were
accused
of
being
collaborative
when
I
I
think
that,
there's
probably,
if
there's
any
police,
any
members
of
the
police
department
listening,
they
probably
all
fell
off
their
chairs.
F
We
we
collaborate
when
it's
wise
too.
We
try
to
solve
problems
together,
because
trying
to
solve
problems
together
is
wise
and
we're
adversarial
when
we
have
to
as
well
I
mean
I,
I
think,
that
the
team
that
we
have
has
done
an
incredible
job,
a
professional
job,
and
you
can
check
out
our
our
reports
on
our
website.
F
We
don't
hold
hands
with
the
police,
we
talk
to
them
like
professionals,
and
we
advocate
for
policies
that
are
wise
and
we've
always
done
so.
I
think
an
expansion
of
oversight
is
is
a
wise,
endeavor
and,
and
I
think
that
more
authoritative
oversight
is
a
wise
endeavor,
and
I
think
that,
looking
at
what
we've
done
with
six
really
looking
at
what
we've
done
with
six
and
maybe
ten,
I
think
that
everyone
here
and
the
rest
of
the
city
would
be
amazed
at
what
we've
accomplished
so
far.
G
G
The
concern
that
I
hear
judith
articulating
is
when
it's
part
of
the
managing
director's
office,
and
so
is
the
police.
There
may
be
a
risk
of
the
perception
of
a
lack
of
independence,
but
that
independence
can
incorporate
the
kind
of
understanding
of
the
challenges
of
a
police
role
that
mr
rendon
is
talking
about.
G
It
can
incorporate
an
understanding
that
often
the
police
are
trying
to
make
changes
and
there
are
other
structural
impediments
to
those
changes,
and
it
can
continue
to
do
its
role
of
insisting
that
those
changes
be
made
if
the
changes
aren't
happening
at
a
pace
that
we're
comfortable
with
as
a
community.
So
I
think
it's
really
important
that
we
ensure,
rather
than
thinking
about
this
as
adversarial
or
collaborative.
G
B
B
F
J
Hear
you
all
right?
Well,
council,
councilman
chairman
and
your
co-chair,
our
public
defender
I
want
to
thank
you.
My
name
is
mark
kelly,
tyler
senior,
pastor,
mother,
bethel,
amy,
church
and
co-director
of
power
live
free,
a
campaign
that
works
around
issues
of
police
accountability,
ending
mass
incarceration
and
dealing
with
the
epidemic
of
gun
violence
in
our
community.
J
I
want
to
say
that
I'm
not
going
to
be
able
to
stay
on
now,
because
I
has
been
brought
to
my
attention
by
my
16
year
old,
who
walked
in
about
a
half
an
hour
ago,
to
inform
me
that
a
young
black
man
was
shot
and
killed
in
west
philadelphia
on
61st
and
locust.
Just
as
this
meeting
was
starting
by
two
white
officers,
I've
seen
the
video
on
instagram
and
it's
truly
horrifying.
J
A
man
had
a
knife
and
I
cannot
stop
counting
after
10
shots.
So
I'm
going
down
to
the
scene
and
trying
to
organize
some
clergy
to
be
there
as
well.
The
persons
from
power
live
free
will
remain
on
and
be
in
a
will,
testify
and
will
also
be
able
to
answer
any
questions
that
you
might
have.
But
you
know
it's
it's
moments
like
this.
J
You
know
again,
I'm
really
just
at
a
loss
right
now,
councilman
and
members
of
public
safety,
and
so
everything
that
I
wanted
to
say
is
will
certainly
be
covered
by
gail
lacks
marta
guttenberg
and
sherry
cohen,
who
are
representing
us
today.
They'll
cover
all
of
the
points,
but
if
you'll
excuse
me,
I'm
gonna
head
down
there
and
I
certainly
hope
to
see
council
member
guntier.
They
are
in
contact
with
her
as
well
when
this
hearing
is
over.
J
B
K
K
We
want
the
citizens
police
oversight
commission
to
have
full
investigative
power.
This
unit
would
receive,
investigate
and
resolve
all
citizens.
Complaints
of
police
misconduct,
for
example,
but
not
limited
to
these,
would
be
complaints
for
verbal
abuse,
abuse
of
authority,
civil
rights
abuses,
lack
of
service
and
use
of
force.
K
The
inves
investigative
unit
to
do
its
job
well
would
need
to
have
one
investigator
for
every
70
to
100
police
officers
for
a
police
force
of
6500
officers.
That
would
be
65
investigators
to
do
its
job.
Well,
the
investigative
unit
would
need
direct
access
to
all
police
department
records,
videos,
body,
camera
footage
and
the
ability
to
interview
police
department
personnel,
as
well
as
subpoena
power.
Direct
access
is
needed
for
timely
investigation
and
resolution
of
complaints.
K
K
L
All
right,
sorry
about
that,
how's
that
okay,
all
right!
Thank
you
so
much
councilman
jones
for
all
of
your
work
on
this
issue
convening
this
hearing
today
and
thank
you
so
much
chief
defender,
bradford
gray,
for
all
that
you
do
and
for
your
work
on
this
issue
as
well,
and
it's
a
pleasure
to
see
all
the
other
council
people
or
hear
them
on
this
microsoft
teams
broadcast
today.
L
L
L
The
need
for
an
elected
oversight
commission-
and
we
just
wanted
to
convey
to
everyone
on
this-
call
that
there
there
is
precedent
for
this.
Detroit,
for
example,
has
an
oversight
body,
that's
in
part,
elected
and
part
appointed
and
there's
a
number
of
other
cities
where
community
groups
and
coalitions
are
coming
together,
for
you
know,
for
for
an
elected
body
and
that's
in
chicago
there's
an
ordinance
called
the
police,
accountability,
council,
chicago
police
accountability,
council
ordinance
and
in
new
york
as
well.
L
L
We
believe
that
community
oversight
is
only
meaningful
when,
as
we've
been
discussing
already
when
the
commission
is
independent,
actually
represents
impacted
communities
is
adequately
funded,
which
we
know.
That
was
not
not
the
case
here
in
philly
to
date
and
as
gail
was
stating
has
full
investig
investigatory
powers,
and
we
would
also
like
it
to
have
full
disciplinary
power
now,
of
course,
we're
aware
of
issues
regarding
the
police
contract
and
were
aware
of
binding
arbitration
through
act
111,
and
these
are
going
to
be
continued
focuses
of
our
attention.
L
L
L
You
know
this
oversight,
commission,
so
we
had
speakers
at
one
of
our
town
halls
from
san
francisco
who
spoke
about
the
police
commission
there
and
all
the
things
they're
able
to
do,
and
then
we've
also
had
a
reach
research
group
who
have
been
researching
additional
cities
around
the
country
that
have
that
do
oversight
to
see
what
we
can
learn
from
them
as
well.
So
I
wanted
to
just
give
a
mention
to
a
couple
of
these
entities
today.
L
The
commission
appoints
and
regulates
patrol
special
officers
and
may
suspend
or
dismiss
patrol
special
officers
after
a
hearing
on
charges
filed.
This
is
one
example
of
a
policy
passed
by
the
san
francisco
police
commission.
This
summer
they
drafted
an
anti-bias
policy
which
mandates
that
officers
identify
themselves
by
name
and
rank
state.
The
reason
the
officer
has
stopped
them
before
the
officer
asks
for
a
person's
driver's
license
and
registration.
L
L
So
this
civilian
police
commission
has
the
ability
to
write
policing
policy
discipline
officers
and
they
also
have
the
right
if
they
choose
to
fire.
The
police
chief,
the
community
police
review
agency,
investigates
complaints
involving
use
of
force
in
custody,
deaths,
profiling
and
public
assemblies.
L
So
I
wanted
to
make
sure
folks
know
that-
and
you
may
know
that,
unfortunately,
our
ill-funded
pac,
which
has
been
doing
great
work
but
nevertheless
has
been
very
poorly
funded,
has
just
had
I
mean
their
percentage
of
their
funding
in
relation
to
the
funding
of
the
police
department
is
less
than
0.1
percent.
It's
actually
0.075.
L
L
B
B
But
it
just
emphasizes
the
importance
of
that
there
being
a
a
enemy
that
can
review
fair.
These
type
of
police
interactions
with
the
citizens
of
philadelphia,
so
that
the
public
can
feel
that
there
is
redress
that
the
public
can
have
confidence
that
that
that
it's
not
a
them
against
us
scenario
and
that.
B
L
C
A
E
What
this
should
look
like
the
type
of
independence,
it
should
have
the
type
of
authority
it
should
have,
and
I
just
would
want
to
say
that
I
am
really
happy
that
you
guys
will
be
here
to
continue
to
help
us
shape
the
perfect
fit
for
our
city,
because,
while
other
cities
have
their
versions
aren't
their
models
and
we
can-
we
have
I've
learned
so
much
through
these
hearings
from
all
of
them.
I
am
really
really
looking
forward
to
taking
what
works
from
everyone
else
and
making
it
philadelphia's
own.
E
So
thank
you
for
all
of
your
efforts
and
I
just
want
to
say
this.
I
did
unfortunately
get
a
video
of
what
happened
at
the
shooting
disturbingly
I
opened
it
and
it
was
very
graphic.
It
was
very
disturbing
and
I
do
hope
that
someone
is
able
to
evaluate
what
happened
here
and
what
could
be
done.
Different,
a
young
man's
life
is
lost,
never
to
come
back
and
I
do
think
there
has
to
be
something
for
an
intermediate
ground.
E
B
B
A
M
M
I
did
get
a
chance
to
listen
to
a
number
of
witnesses
this
afternoon
early
evening,
as
well
as
had
opportunity
to
listen
and
participate
in
the
power
live
free
twice
a
month.
Calls
with
various
members
of
legislative
bodies
from
around
the
country
really
provide
a
lot
of
content
that
I
know
you
and
your
office
were
very
involved
in
those
meetings
as
well.
So
I
think
it
gives
us
a
good
road
map
of
information
and
how
we
move
forward
and
reference
the
next
steps.
M
I
will
support
this
initiative
as
well
as
the
other
criminal
justice
reform
initiatives
that
we
are
doing
in
this
legislative
body
and
give
us
the
ability
to
move
forward
with
this
entity
in
a
way
that
addresses
some
of
the
issues
we've
been
talking
about
over
the
past
number
of
months
and
also
more
recently
with
the
video
that
so
many
of
us
just
saw
on
this
evening.
So
thank
you,
mr
chair,
and
your
co-chair
care.
M
Bradford
gray
and
other
members
of
the
special
committee,
as
well
as
the
council
committee
on
public
safety,
look
forward
to
our
continued
work
on
this
issue
and
bring
about
a
police
advisory
entity
that
lives
up
to
what
we
need
it
to
do.
And
one
final
point
I
will
say
is
that
some
people
may
have
forgotten
that
this
type
of
advisory
organization
actually
had
its
start
here
in
the
city
of
philadelphia,
going
back
so
many
years
ago
with
the
richardson
and
clark
administrations.