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From YouTube: 🔴 Nebular Summit Paris 2023: Day 1 Livestream
Description
Get ready for a cosmic gathering of Interchain enthusiasts and Cosmos builders. Exploring topics from cross-chain DeFi, CosmWasm, modular blockchains, protocol governance, staking and much more.
Website: https://nebular.builders
Twitter: https://youtube.com/nebularbuilders
Telegram: https://t.me/NebularBuilders
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C
E
D
C
Yeah,
and
so
let's
take
a
little
step
back
a
few
years
ago,
we
only
had
some
solutions.
We
only
had
you
basically
built
the
protocol
on
ethereum
or
you
build
an
L1
which
is
more
scalable,
which
is
faster,
which
is
cheaper,
etc,
etc.
Today
we
have
more
solutions.
We
have,
we
still
have
the
l1's,
but
we
have
l2s.
We
still
have
protocols,
we
have
cross
chain
protocols
now
and
we
are
seeing
some
up
chains
within
some
ecosystems
like
Cosmos,
Avalanche,
polka,
Rod
polygon.
C
F
Yeah
well
to
me,
the
best
apps
for
app
chains
are
ones
at
this
point
that
don't
require
a
lot
of
composability
outside
of
their
chain.
So
that's
things
like
games,
physical
infrastructure
networks,
there's
some
defy
applications
like
exchanges
that
make
a
lot
of
sense
to
be
on
their
own
chain
in
the
future.
Of
course,
what
Bo
is
doing,
and
a
few
others
like
Catalyst,
just
some
kind
of
showed
liquidity
primitive
across
different
Trends
I,
think
that
can
do
a
good
job
of
reducing
the
liquidity
fragmentation
right
now.
D
Yeah
I
think
it's
quite
interesting
to
see
how
fragmentation
will
evolve
and
one
recent
example
will
be
I.
Think
the
kava
usdt
versus
Noble,
usdc
and
I
think
adoption
of
either
of
these
two
in
the
short
term
will
be
driven
by
incentives
but
in
the
longer
term,
will
be
driven
by
Network
effects.
So
it's
kind
of
that
classical
race
to
see
who
can
get
more
adoption
in
the
short
term,
maybe
with
incentives
that
are
unsustainable
and
yeah.
D
E
The
liquidity
fragmentation
problem
is
definitely
exacerbated
by
growing
number
of
like
app
Roll-Ups
roll-up
Frameworks
it'll
continue
to
fragment
it's
somewhat
solved
at
the
lower
layers
by
standardizing
on
interoperability
between
chains.
It
can
be
solved
on
the
upper
layers
by
liquidity
networks.
As
Neo
had
mentioned.
You
know
you
can
have
like
connects
like
protocols.
You
have
Portables
like
Catalyst,
that
can
kind
of
bridge
liquidity
across
chains.
Native
issuance
of
tokens
like
usdc,
is
also
very
important.
It,
the
security
and
the
safety
of
that
liquidity,
as
it
moves
across
different
networks,
is,
is
Paramount.
F
Yeah
I
think
it's
stuff,
like
account.
Abstraction,
has
some
potential
to
to
better
solve
it,
and
that
now
you
just
authorize
user
Ops
to
be
executed
on
different
chains
rather
than
actually
moving
your
money,
because
right
now,
I
think
we're
in
this
weird
situation.
Where,
especially,
if
you
end
up
with
hundreds
or
thousands
of
app
specific
Roll-Ups,
your
money
is
going
to
be
all
over
the
place,
which
is
just
going
to
be
really
cumbersome
to
keep
track
of.
E
E
A
very
different
thing
from,
like
you
know,
the
native
issuance,
like
liquidity
networks,
I
mean
the
question
of
security,
comes
into
mind
as
well.
When
we
talk
about
layer,
zero,
but
I
think
you
can
saw
some
of
these
things
at
the
protocol
level
in
terms
of
safety,
if
we
can
have
like
State
validating
or
transition
validating
Bridges
between
different
chains.
E
D
Yeah
I
think
Solutions,
like
escrow
IVC,
where
you
essentially
have
a
liquidity
provider.
A
market
maker
for
these
tokens
to
take
on
some
risk
are
more
Band-Aid,
short-term
solutions
that
are
expedient,
but
they
they
have
their
set
of
trade-offs.
There's
a
fee
associated
with
it
and
you
know,
block
spawn
events
do
happen
so
I,
it's
not
really
I
view
it
I
wouldn't
view
it
as
part
of
like
a
foundational
system
that
we
should.
You
know,
base
our
our
bridging
off
of.
F
C
C
So,
for
example,
let's
say
you
have
an
app
specific
roll-up,
so
it
which
has
its
own
blockchain
or
you
have
a
roll
up
which
relies
on
another
blockchain,
for
example,
nl2
on
ethereum,
which
relies
on
the
security
of
ethereum
and
only
scales
the
blockchain
and
lowers
the
cost
or
enough
specific
decks,
for
example,
which
has
its
own
blockchain
like
they
have
Crescent.
We
have
injective.
Actually
we
have
some
other
protocols
as
well.
F
Yeah,
so
whether
there's
any
preference
on
the
part
of
users
for
layer,
one
options
versus
app
specific
Roll-Ups,
yes,
yeah
I
think
as
an
app
specific
rollup
like
to
the
way
that
I
used
to
think
about
it
was
it's
essentially
the
same,
it's
its
own
chain.
But
it's
true
that
there's
like
implications
on
the
social
sovereignty,
if
you're
an
L2
directly
on
ethereum
or
something
like
that,
and
that
might
actually
be
desirable.
D
I
think
that
end
users,
don't
really
care
and
two
good
examples,
are
one:
the
axi
infinity,
Ronin
sidechain.
You
know
thousands
millions
of
Filipinos
and
others
used
axi
Infinity
without
knowing
or
caring
that
it
was.
You
know
a
valid
or
set
of
seven
of
which
you
know
one
other
Engineers,
you
know
were
just
running
on
their
on
their
Cloud
servers
which
actually
got
hacked.
D
So
it
matters
until
you
know
it
doesn't
matter
until
it
matters,
which
is
when
you
know
the
the
protocol
gets
hacked
because
of
weaker
security
guarantees
and
but,
conversely,
I
think
two
other
examples
that
didn't
get
hacked.
Are
you
know
polygon
the
POS
system
and
and
binance
smart
chain
right,
which
isn't
an
L2
but
can
be
viewed
in
this
in
that
similar
lens?
D
E
There's
some
trauma
with
bridging
right
there's
some
liquidity
trauma
with
all
the
bridge
hacks
and
there's
with
greater
liquidity
safety,
we'll
see,
like
liquidity
flow
outwards,
a
bit
more
I,
think
I
think
we
see
a
lot
of
liquidity
flow
to
later
twos
and
it
kind
of
dries
up
as
you
get
into
app
chain
land
and
on
the
ux
front.
I
would
say
users
care
a
lot
about
ux.
That's
you
know
what
they
interact
with.
E
C
And
let's
get
on
with
this
one,
also
so
polymer
and
Eclipse
you're,
both
working
with
Celestia,
one
of
you
is
providing
IPC
Services.
One
of
you
is
providing
roll-up
services,
and
so,
as
the
question
is,
what
is
the
difference
between
the
Roll-Ups
and
L1
up
chains?
What
are
the
different
services
that
you
provide
here
for
Celestia,
for
example,.
F
The
difference
is
primarily
the
unit
economics
of
the
chain
where,
for
a
full
layer,
one
blockchain,
you
have
to
get
100
validators
and
they're
all
spending
money
to
run
each
month,
and
you
have
to
for
a
proof
of
stake
chain.
You
have
to
actually
put
up
stake,
whereas
for
a
roll
up,
it's
more
cost
efficient
from
that
perspective,
but
there's
a
marginal
cost
associated
with
each
transaction.
Where
now
you
have
to
post
it
to
a
layer,
one
blockchain
on
ethereum,
that's
a
base
cost
of
maybe
like
10
to
20
cents
per
transaction.
E
Yeah
to
add
on
to
Neil's
point:
it's
the
difference
between
needing
to
execute
one
program
instruction
over
a
single
node
or
over
a
large
number,
maybe
let's
say
150
nodes.
The
cost
of
that
is
different,
and
then
you
have
to
add
in
consensus.
You
have
to
add
in
all
these
other
mechanisms
to
add
real
cost.
Real
computational
costs,
it's
like
not
arbitrarily
price
cost,
but
real
computational
costs
also
Roll-Ups
inherent
security
from
the
da
layer
that
they
post
to.
E
So,
if
you
have
a
number
of
Roll-Ups
built
across
the
same
da
layer,
they
have
secure
liquidity
flow
across
them
because
you
can
prove
fraud.
As
long
as
the
da
is
made
available,
the
block
is
made
available.
Someone
can
come
along.
Take
that
block
download
it
re-executed
generate
a
fraud,
proof
and
secure
the
communication
between
these
roll-ups.
D
D
You
know
much
of
that
is
expedited
by
using
the
Customs
SDK,
for
example,
on
the
tooling
side.
But
you
know
you
basically
are
now
responsible
for
your
own
network.
So
that's
the
burden
that
you
bear,
but
in
contrast
you
you
get
many
benefits.
You
have
the
full
control
over
the
network.
You
know
at
injectively,
for
example,
can
make
many
optimizations
like,
for
example,
doing
matching
orders
in
parallel.
We
can
leverage
concurrency
and
go
routines
to
you
know,
use
all
the
CPU
cores.
D
You
could
do
things
like
use
gpus,
even
and
for
example,
you
can
have
compatibility
with
with
metamask
and
ethereum
accounts
because
you
have
control
over.
You
know
what
is
defined
as
an
account
under
chain,
so
you
have
the
flexibility
to
introduce
all
sorts
of
new
things.
That
would
be
very
challenging
to
do
if
you
were
just
using
the
evm
as
an
example
or
an
evm
based
rollup,
because
you
have
control
over
every
layer
of
the
stack
from
consensus
to
your
application
layer
to
even
yeah
like
lower
level.
D
D
E
Yeah
there's
a
few
options:
if
you
have
a
roll-up,
then
if
you
want
to
verify
that
the
state
transition
was
correct,
you
can
either
let's
say,
use
this
sequencer,
which
I
believe
a
lot
of
protocols
do,
and
the
other
option
is
that,
as
Albert
mentioned,
you
can
enshrine
essentially
a
client,
an
IBC
client
for
that
roll
up.
That
does
the
verification
for
this
approach.
You
would
need
to
run,
as
Albert
mentioned,
a
full
node
of
that
particular
roll
up.
F
I
guess
for
the
eigen
they
are
solution.
They
are.
You
would
still
need
some
way
to
verify
an
incorrect
State
transition
on
Chan
in
order
for
the
eigenlayer
slashing
to
work,
whereas
for
the
committee
ideas
like
the
attestation
committees,
there's
not
really
slashing
that
it
occurs
per
se,
it's
more
just
that
all
of
those
full
nodes
are
also
running
a
full
note
of
the
roll-up.
C
And
so
let's
talk
about
the
blockchain
trilemma,
so
we
have
the
three
elements:
decentralization,
decentralization
scalability
and
security
for
the
Roll-Ups,
which
don't
have
a
token.
So
this
would
be
a
question
for
you
new.
How
would
you
implement
governance
within
the
the
roll-up
that
doesn't
have
a
token.
F
But
the
right
way
is
that
if
you
measure
decentralization
by
the
cost
of
running
a
verifying
node,
then
in
general
to
handle
more
throughput,
you
need
a
beefier
node
and
therefore
it's
more
expensive
to
run
a
fully
verifying
node.
If
a
full
node
is
your
only
option
now
we
have
like
other
ways
to
verify
so
I
think
we
actually
have
expanded
the
blockchain
trilemma
or,
like
we've,
expanded
the
efficient
Frontier
of
what's
possible
on
chain.
F
So
that's
one
thought
and
then
the
second
part
is:
how
do
you
have
governance
without
a
token
you'd
have
to
have
some
kind
of
elected
governance
or
delegating
up.
You
have
to
just
choose
some
folks,
some
some
group
of
entities
or
maybe
bow
or
Albert.
If
you
guys
have
thought
about
that,
a
little
bit,
I'm,
not
sure
what
that
would
look
like.
E
Oh
for
governance,
yeah
I,
don't
have
too
many
comments
on
the
governance
side,
but
I
think
the
token
governance
maybe
can
be
used
for,
like
elected
voting
so
like
you
can
have
by
light
stakeway.
It's
kind
of
like
a
meta
POS
system,
a
voting
system
where,
if
you
accrual
tokens,
you're
gonna
crew
like
different
like
State
way
to
like
move
the
roll-up
decide
the
roll-up
settlement
decide
to
roll
up.
Internals
on.
Do
I
settle
to
ethail
one
which
I'm
paying
a
higher
cost.
E
C
And
today,
if
you
want
to
build
your
own
solution
of
scalability,
so
it
can
be
an
up
chain
or
a
roll-up
for
which
one
would
you
choose
for
upgrade
ability?
Which
one
would
you
choose
for
scalability,
where
you
have
to
have
a
high
output
throughput,
sorry,
which
one
is
more
suitable
for
each
category.
F
Yeah,
it
depends
how
you
define
scalability,
but
if
you're
defining
scalability
by
throughput,
divided
by
the
cost
of
running
a
node,
then
I
don't
think
it
really
matters
whether
it's
an
L1
versus
an
L2
like
either
I
guess
you
could
rely
on.
Sometimes
when
people
have
an
L2
on
ethereum
they're,
saying
oh
cool
I,
don't
have
to
run
a
full
node
of
the
L2
anymore,
but
implicitly
it's
because
the
L1
nodes
are
the
ones
doing
that
verification.
F
So
if
you
want
to
directly
verify
yourself,
you
still
have
to
have
to
run
a
full
node,
so
so
yeah
I
think
if
they're,
equally
scalable
and
then
the
second
part
was
upgradability
I.
Think
in
either
case,
you'd
also
have
to
get
it's
probably
easier
to
upgrade
a
roll-up
I
think
because
it's
fewer
nodes
that
need
to
they
need
to
update.
E
I
I
think
as
a
developer
buildings,
an
application
if
you
care
a
lot
about
scalability
world,
is
probably
a
better
approach.
If
you
care
about
customizability,
you
want
to
build
on
a
platform
where
the
cost
of
innovation
is
low.
The
cost
of
innovation
on
roll
up
exceptionally
roll
up
Frameworks
as
they
are
today,
is
quite
High.
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
marketing
that
goes
behind
Stacks,
like
the
op
stack,
it's
not
clear
to
the
developers
like
what
they
can
build.
How
flexible
is
it?
How
easy
is
it
to
build?
E
If
you
wanted
to,
let's
say
like
add
a
virtual
machine,
a
new
one?
That's
not
the
ebm
to
Dopey
stack
it'll,
be
incredibly
difficult.
There's
a
whole
thing,
a
whole
number
of
things
that
you
need
to
do
because,
in
order
to
prove
fraud
on
chain,
you
need
to
have
stateless
access
to
read
all
the
state,
both
in
memory
and
on
disk
in
the
fraud
proving
VM
that
sits
on
the
ethereum
L1,
there's
a
whole
pipeline
of
infrastructure
that
you
have
to
build
to
make
this
happen.
D
Yeah,
so
I
think
you
can
even
argue
that
upgradability
in
l1s
would
be
easier
just
because
oh
like,
for
example,
a
cosmos
based
L1,
because
you
have
sovereignty
over
the
system.
You
aren't
constrained
by
you
know
having
to
live
in
the
constraints
of
having
something
be
fraud,
fraud,
provable
and
particularly
I.
Think,
the
the
scope
of
you
know
modifiability
kind
of
really
relies
just
on
op
codes
that
you
can
add
to
your
vvm,
which
is
extremely
limiting
versus
you
know
any
arbitrary
code
in
in
Cosmos
as
an
example.
F
I
guess
the
way
that,
like
op
stack,
for
example,
is
written
right
now
you
could
theoretically
add
anything
to
it.
The
fall,
the
fraud
proving
I
think
is,
is
actually
the
easier
part.
Even
though
that's
it's
not
enabled
right
now.
In
theory,
that's
not
like
a
constraint.
I
think
the
only
difference
in
upgrade
ability
is
what
you're
able
to
upgrade,
whereas
for
like
for
your
L1,
you
can
upgrade
things
related
to
the
consensus
much
more
easily,
whereas
for
a
roll
up,
you're
pretty
much
restricted
to
the
execution
layer.
C
Yeah,
and
so
last
year
we
had
this
Narrative
of
the
l1's
that
alternatively
ones,
which
were
going
on
for
a
long
time,
but
today
the
focus
has
shift
to
the
l2s
and
the
thing
is
we
have
all
these
incentives.
We
have
all
these
companies
building
on
l2s.
Now
we
have
consensus,
we
have
coinbase
which
are
building
l2s,
and
so
people
are
starting
to
look
away
from
the
l1s,
and
so
how
do
you
bring
the
inter?
C
How
would
you
bring
the
interest
back
to
this
l1's,
which
already
exists,
which
already
have
a
solution
that
has
proven
to
be
secure,
and
but
today
everyone
is
looking
at
TBL
everyone's
looking
at
where
developers
are
everyone's
looking
at
where
the
Innovation
is.
So
how
would
you
bring
back
the
interest
to
this
l1s,
which
are
already
in
place.
D
I
mean
I,
don't
know
if
that's
a
good
characterization
I
think
developers
should
find
the
solutions
that
work
best
for
them.
For
some
some
teams,
an
app
chain
is
the
right
right
thing
to
do.
It's
a
right
set
of
trade-offs
for
other
teams,
especially
if
you're
building
on
you
know,
let's
say
polygon
or
arbitrum,
and
you
want
to
have
your
own.
You
know
roll
up
because
and
that's
easier
because
you
can
just
Port
all
of
your
code
over
and
you
want
to
have
an
ecosystem.
That's
also
in
solidity.
D
You
know
it
makes
sense
to
do
your
owner,
L2,
so
yeah
I
think
more
than
like
a
top-down
like
this
is
what
the
cool
thing
is.
It's
it'll
be
more
of
an
emergent
phenomenon
where
yeah
individual
projects
and
teams
will
decide
what
makes
sense
for
them.
I
would
say
until
now
or
building
your
own
app
chain
seems
to
be
more
accessible
to
individual
teams
versus
creating
your
own
rollup,
but
that
will
soon
change
over
the
next.
You
know,
12
to
24
months
with
companies
like
Eclipse,
making
it
easier
and
easier
to
do.
F
Yeah
I
agree
with
that
characterization
that,
like
for
a
given
type
of
application
like
given
their
throughput
expectations
and
what
their
Ambitions
are
for
their
project,
there
is
a
correct
Solution
on
whether
it
should
be
an
L1
and
L2
deployed
to
a
shared
chain,
and
it's
all
about
just
what
do
they
prefer.
Given
the
objective
differences
in
those
architectures.
E
Yeah,
there's
a
cost
of
innovation
and
a
cost
of
security
perspective
here.
Cost
of
security
is
related
to
liquidity.
Cost
of
innovation
is
related
to
how
fast
you
can
iterate
and
develop
more
Innovative
features
than
your
competitors.
I,
don't
think
many
of
these,
like
non-generalized
Roll-Ups
onto
L1,
are
going
to
make
it
I
think
a
lot
of
it
comes
from
the
devx
standpoint.
I
kind
of
spent
a
lot
of
time
working
on
the
infrastructure
side,
so
I
think
more
about
developers.
E
E
D
I
think
one
interesting
development
may
be
that
with
the
Advent
of
shared
sequencers
on
l2s.
If
this
gives
way
for
Atomic
Crossroad
composition,
then
will
will
the
benefits
of
deploying
on
a
roll-up
versus
an
app
chain
be
be
much
greater
because
even
with
app
chains
right
now
you
have
an
asynchronous
programming
model
with
IBC.
That's
you
know
quite
awkward
and
clumsy,
and
you
depend
on
relators
to
interact
with.
D
A
B
I
Hello
testing:
this
is
good,
oh
yeah!
Now
that
sound,
hey
quite
down
in
the
back
I'm
talking
all
right.
No
one
give
us
a
okay
cool,
so
I'm,
I'm
Ethan.
You
know
co-founder
of
Cosmos
nowadays
running
informal
systems.
We
still
do
quite
a
bit
of
Cosmos
Dev,
my
timer's
not
running
so
I'll
just
talk
indefinitely.
If
that's
cool
yeah
get
some
extra
seconds
in
there,
so
I
can
banter
with
y'all
yeah.
So
you
know
you
might
know.
I
I
We
really
want
to
make
this
technology
real
for
the
real
world
and
and
have
real
world
impact,
and
so
we've
been
working
on
a
project.
We
call
collaborative
Finance,
which
is
our
sort
of
response
to
defy,
and
you
know
how
to
actually
do
it
right
and
informed
by
Theory
and
and
history
now,
I
was
invited
to
give
a
talk
at
the
modularity
summit
on
Saturday
and
when
I
told
the
organizers
I
wanted
to
talk
about
Kofi.
I
They
said
well,
that's
not
on
topic,
so
I
I
said:
okay,
fine
I'll
talk
about
something
else
and
then
I
just
told
them.
The
title
was
modularity
and
monetary
design
and
then,
of
course
they
were
thrilled,
but
it
was
still
very
much
a
talk
on
Kofi
now
I
gave
that
talk
on
Saturday
and
it
went
so
well,
and
everyone
was
so
happy
that
they
were
like.
You
have
to
give
this
talk
again
at
nebula.
I
So
that's
what
I'm
gonna
do
so
I'm
going
to
talk
about
Copa
yeah
all
right
represent
yeah.
So
so,
thanks
for
having
me
thanks
for
sitting
here
and
not
being
super
loud
and
talking
to
your
friends
in
the
back,
like
all
these
other
jerks,
but
you
know
maybe
maybe
they'll
Pile
in
once
they
start
to
see
all
the
all
the
excitement
we're
building.
Here.
You
know
so
I've
long
felt
that
money
is
the
killer
app
of
blockchains
of
crypto.
I
It's
the
ultimate
multi-stakeholder
computation,
but
today
we
still
haven't
really
figured
it
out
right.
Very
few
people
are
really
using
cryptocurrencies
as
a
Payments
Technology,
it's
mostly
driven
by
speculation
and
and
gambling,
and
all
this
sort
of
fun
stuff
and
and-
and
so
we
want
to
understand
that
and
try
to
do
something
about
it,
and
to
do
that,
we
have
to
really
understand
what
money
is,
what
money
is
for
what
money
is
about.
I
So
let's
talk
briefly
about
that,
I
like
to
say
that
if
home
is
where
the
heart
is,
money
is
where
the
payments
are.
Okay,
money
is
for
payments,
it
is
for
denominating
and
discharging
debt.
That's
what
payments
are
right.
You
incur
some
debt
and
then
you
pay
it
off.
That's
what
money
is
all
about
I'm
going
to
use
the
word
discharge
over
and
over
again
throughout
this
throughout
this
presentation.
I
The
medium
of
exchange
is
for
discharging
debt
here
and
now,
and
the
store
value
is
for
discharging
debt
elsewhere
or
later
right,
and
so
we
can
understand
the
different
functions
of
money
in
terms
of
what
they
contribute
to
denominating
and
discharging
debt.
Now,
so
here's
kind
of
the
core
problem.
We
have
that
armed
with
the
unit
of
account.
Once
we
have
a
unit
of
account
a
common
measure.
Here
we
can
denominate
unlimited
amounts
of
debt
right,
there's
no
limit
to
how
much
debt
we
can
create
with
a
unit
of
account.
I
I
That's
designed
not
to
be
paid
back,
which
is
which
is
really
a
a
big
problem,
but
so
we
want
to
think
about
this
more
fundamentally
and
and
think
about.
You
know,
essentially
this:
if
we're
going
to
go
out
denominating
all
these
debts,
how
can
we
ensure
that
we
can
reduce
them
all
right?
And
you
know
a
few
thousand
years
ago.
I
They
would
have
these
jubilees,
where
they
would
just
forgive
all
the
Consumer
Debt
every
you
know,
seven
years
or
however
often
Whenever
there
was
a
new
king
to
sort
of
execute
their
their
Sovereign
power
and
show
you
know
we
can
reduce
the
debt.
So
this
problem
of
how
do
we
ensure
that
we
can
discharge
all
these
debts?
This
is
what
we
call
liquidity,
essentially
right:
the
ability
to
discharge
your
debts
when
they're
due
yeah
liquidity
is
not.
I
You
know
how
much
slippage
you're
going
to
get
when
you
trade
one
coin
against
another
right:
it's
not
how
many
assets
are
piled
into
this
exchange
or
flowing
over
all
IBC.
All
that
stuff
is
great.
It's
very
important,
but
fundamentally,
liquidity
is
about
this
problem.
When
your
debt
is
due,
can
you
pay
it?
If
so,
your
liquid,
if
not
you're,
not
you're,
done
you're
out
of
business
right
and
you
can
be
solvent,
you
can
be
insolvent
for
a
long
time,
but
liquidity
kills.
I
So
how
do
we
solve
this
kind
of
problem
in
the
real
world?
Where
do
we
manage
liquidity?
Well,
that's
where
a
payment
system
comes
from
right
and
I'm,
going
to
define
a
payment
system
as
a
set
of
obligations,
plus
some
liquidity
source
that
you
you
can
use
to
discharge
debt
yeah.
Now,
if
you
think
about
that
definition
for
a
second,
you
might
realize
well
wait
a
minute.
I
None
of
the
things
I
think
about
colloquially
as
payment
systems,
fintech
blockchains
Banks
Etc
actually
satisfy
this
definition
and
why
not
because
they
don't
actually
represent
the
obligations
they're
just
all
about
the
assets,
the
asset
transfers
right,
and
so
that's
something
that's
a
big
problem,
because
the
obligations
are
really
where
all
the
important
information
is.
That's
where
the
trust
relationships
are.
That's
where
we
extend
credit,
that's
where
we
actually
engage
in
you
know:
human
commercial
activity
and
the
payment
is
just
the
other
side
of
it
right.
That's
where
we
settle
up
later
right.
I
I
Now
we're
actually
writing
a
white
paper
about
copify,
actually
multiple
white
papers,
because
the
scope
is
kind
of
massive,
so
everything
I'm
presenting
here
is
from
is
from
one
of
them
and
we're
not
gonna
have
too
much
time
to
go
into
all
the
details,
but
just
kind
of
briefly,
let's
lay
out
a
sort
of
high
level
critique
of
existing
Payment,
Systems
yeah.
So
first
of
all,
none
of
them
are
designed
from
first
principles.
The
banking
system
has
just
been
cobbled
together
over
the
centuries.
I
I
Right
sounds
like
some
sort
of
magical
magical
thinking,
but
it's
very
replanet,
the
most
future
proof
you
know
IBC
makes
assets
available
from
anywhere
and
we
need
to
connect
all
that
stuff
in
to
really
realize
the
cofi
vision.
Okay.
So
let's
talk
about
actually
the
structure
of
the
payment
system.
I
You
know
I've
sort
of
motivated
the
design
I'm
probably
running
out
of
time,
but
that,
but
that's
all
good,
so
so
the
missing
primitive,
the
fundamental
missing
primitive
is
the
obligation,
okay
and
we're
going
to
spend
about
a
minute
talking
about
balance
sheets
and
accounting.
I
hope.
None
of
you
are
too
afraid
of
that
accounting
is
really
fundamental.
Stuff
I
think
the
world
would
be
a
better
place
if
we
all
thought
more
about
accounting.
If
we
were
all
trained
as
accountants,
you
know
we'd
we'd
probably
be
better
off.
I
So
here
we
have
some
balance
sheets
and
you
know
about
Cheetos
assets
and
liabilities
on
the
left
in
panel,
a
we're
showing
an
asset
transfer
right
from
Alice
to
Bob
right
Alice
is
going
to
transfer.
She
has
20
of
assets
on
her
balance
sheet
and
she's,
going
to
transfer
it
to
Bob.
Now
the
the
twenty
dollars
in
assets
are
on
Bob's
balance
sheet,
so
there's
no
liabilities
involved.
There's
no
debts
here
in
in
the
image
right,
very
simple.
This
is
what
you
do.
I
Every
time
you
make
a
payment,
you
transfer
some
Bitcoin
or
some
items
very
simple
now
on
the
right
is
something
a
little
bit
more
interesting.
This
is
what
an
obligation
looks
like
you
have
a
liability
on
Alice's
balance
sheet.
She
owes
Bob
twenty
dollars,
that's
a
liability
and
corresponding
to
that
is
an
asset
on
Bob's
balance
sheet
right
that
he
has
owed
20
from
Alice
right.
So
we
call
the
we
call
one
the
accounts
payable
if
you
will
and
the
other
accounts
receivable
you'd
probably
be
familiar.
I
This
is
all
very,
very,
very
basic
stuff,
but
it's
important
to
be
thinking
in
terms
of
balance
sheets,
because
that's
where
we
can
actually
understand
the
structure,
the
underlying
structure
of
the
payment
system
and
the
collection
of
debts,
we
need
to
actually
discharge.
If
we
don't
look
at
the
balance
sheets,
then
we're
going
to
be
surprised
when
everything
blows
up,
which
is
exactly
what
happened
in
2008.
now,
there's
two
things:
I
want
to
point
out
about
this.
I
First
of
all,
when
you
make
an
asset
transfer
between
two
parties
like
we
have
on
the
left
in
general,
almost
always
there's
actually
a
pre-existing
debt
that
you're
discharging
right.
So
it's
not
shown
here,
but
Alice
probably
owes
Bob's
twenty
dollars
already
right
and
now
she's
gonna,
you
know
settle
that
debt
by
transferring
the
twenty
dollars
to
Bob
right.
I
So
we
don't
represent
those
obligations,
those
liabilities
on
our
blockchains
or
in
most
of
our
payment
systems,
and
that's
a
huge
problem,
because
there's
a
lot
of
really
profound
stuff
that
we
can
do
if
we
start
to
pay
attention
to
the
structure
of
obligations
and
that's
what
we're
going
to
get
into
the
other
thing.
I
want
to
point
out
is
that
obligations
declaring
an
obligation
is
actually
a
permissionless
operation
right.
If
I
declare
that
I
owe
Gary
Gensler
twenty
dollars,
there's
nothing.
He
can
do
to
stop
me
right.
I
The
same
way
if
I
have
his
address.
I
can
send
him
twenty
dollars
of
a
coin
and
there's
nothing.
He
can
do
it's
just
it's
permissionless
right
and
now
he's
you
know,
he's
as
much
of
a
scammer
as
the
rest
of
us.
It's
the
same
thing
with
an
obligation
if
I
declare
I
owe
you
twenty
dollars.
Who
are
you
to
stop
me
I,
owe
you
twenty
dollars
and
and
that's
a
fact
right.
So
it's
a
permissionless
sort
of
expression
in
intent.
I
If
you
will
to
pay-
and
you
know
we
put
these
things
together
and
we
end
up
with
a
network
of
obligations
right,
so
we
were
just
showing
very
simple
example
of
a
single
obligation,
but
we
we
really
have
a
much
more
complex,
Network
obligations
all
over
the
place.
There's
all
these
structures,
you
have
chains,
you
have
Cycles,
you
have
hubs
in
the
network
and
so
on,
right
and
what's
really
profound
about
this.
I
If
you're
thinking
ahead
or
if
you've
heard
me
talk
about
this
stuff
before
you
might
realize
that
if
we
have
a
cycle
of
obligations,
you
can
actually
settle.
All
of
that,
you
can
discharge
those
debts
without
any
money
at
all.
Okay,
let
me
say
that
again:
if
you
have
a
cycle
of
obligations,
you
can
discharge
those
debts
without
any
money.
At
all,
I
mean
it's
a
brutally
obvious
intuitive
concept
right.
I
If
I
owe
Brian
ten
dollars
and
then
Brian
owes
me
ten
dollars,
we
don't
need
any
money
to
settle
the
debt
we
just
do
set
off.
We
just
offset
it.
We
say
all
right.
We're
cleared
right,
but
if
we're
not
aware
of
the
actual
Network
structure,
then
we
might
be
stuck
in
a
deadlock.
Okay,
now
there's
a
couple
more
Concepts
I
want
to
introduce
to
actually
motivate
all
this.
If
we
have
this,
you
know
this
big
network
of
of
obligations.
You
know
we're
trying
to
discharge
it
all
we're
trying
to
settle
all
these
debt.
I
That's
what
are
the
different
ways
we
can
settle.
Most
of
modern
Finance
is
based
around
something
called
Novation
right
where
you
sell
your
debt
right.
Oh
someone
owes
me
money.
I,
don't
want
to
deal
with
collecting
I'm,
going
to
factor
it
off
right,
someone's
gonna
buy
it
off
me.
I'm
gonna
pull
a
bunch
of
debts
together
into
some
securitized
debt
obligation
and
we're
going
to
sell
it
off
to
Pension
funds
in
Germany
and
we're
going
to
make
a
bunch
of
money
on
the
fees.
I
The
whole
financial
system
is
based
around
this
sort
of
like
selling
off
desk.
We
call
that
Innovation
you're
changing
the
structure
of
the
obligation,
graph
right,
you're,
disrespecting
the
underlying
obligations
and
the
trust
structure
right,
and
that
leads
to
huge
amount
of
problems.
The
Economist
claim:
oh,
it's
reducing
risk
and
the
people
who
can
take
the
risk
you
know
are
taking
it,
but
nobody
knows
what
the
hell
is
going
on
and
obviously
all
that
blew
up
in
2008
right.
So
what
we
want
to
do
is
something
different.
I
We
want
to
say:
well,
let's
try
to
settle
as
much
debt
as
we
can
without
using
Novation
right
before
we
sell
off
a
debt.
Let's
see
what
else
we
can
do
well,
there's
a
few
things
we
can
do.
We
can
do
set
off,
which
we
just
talked
about,
which
is
really
just
clearing
right.
If
we
have
a
cycle
of
debts
and
if
we're
aware
of
the
cycle,
then
we
can
set
them
off
right.
The
other
thing
we
can
do
is
assignment,
which
is
you
know,
really
just
transfer.
I
We
just
we
just
have
fancy
terms
for
things.
We'll
call
assignment
I
owe
you
20
bucks,
I
transfer,
you,
you
know
20
worth
of
bitcoin.
Now
my
debt
is
is
cleared,
that's
assignment
very
straightforward,
but
there's
a
very
interesting
thing
you
can
do,
which
is
called
overdraft
right
now.
You
might
be
familiar
with
credit
lines.
This
is
basically
a
credit
line.
You
go
to.
The
bank
bank
gives
you
a
credit
line.
You
say
all
right,
I'm
going
to
pay
my
bills
by
drawing
on
my
credit
line
right.
I
So
what
you
can
think
about
this
is,
if
you
have
a
positive
balance
of
something
you
can
do
assignment.
If
I
have
a
positive
balance
of
Bitcoin,
I
can
transfer
some
to
you.
That's
assignment
I
can
settle
my
debts
that
way
or
if
I,
have
access
to
a
credit
line
to
an
overdraft
facility.
I
can
basically
go
into
a
negative
balance.
Right,
so
assignment
is
positive
balances.
Overdraft
is
negative
balances
and
with
overdraft
you
can,
when
I
you
know,
draw
on
a
credit
line
from
a
bank.
I
The
bank
is
actually
creating
new
money
when
I
when
I
draw
on
that
credit
line,
new
money
is
being
created.
Now,
banks
are
allowed
to
do
that
because
they
have
licenses
from
the
government
right,
but
why
should
Banks
get
to
have
all
the
fun?
What
we
want
to
do
is
restore
the
capacity
to
issuance
to
individual
communities,
to
be
able
to
create
money
on
demand
when
necessary
to
discharge
their
debts,
but
in
a
sustainable
way.
Not
like
you
know,
irresponsible
governments,
but
it
doesn't
have
to
be
done
with
money
creation.
I
It
could
also
be
done
without
a
bunch
of
investors
could
come
together,
they
could
pool
their
assets
into
a
credit
facility
that
businesses
can
then
draw
on
right,
and
so
this
is
essentially
part
of
what
we're.
What
we're
building
with
Kofi
is
a
platform
that
existing
liquidity
protocols
from
all
across
the
interchain
all
over
IBC
can
connect
into
and
provide
liquidity
in
order
for
real
businesses
to
discharge
their
debts.
Okay,
the
last
piece
we
need
to
put
this
all
together
is
a
couple
other.
You
know
at
the
modularity
summit.
I
I
We've
talked
about
that
a
tender
is
basically
a
willingness
to
pay
with
a
certain
currency,
right,
I'm
willing
to
use
Bitcoin
at
this
price
to
pay
my
debts
and
an
acceptance
is
a
willingness
to
accept
a
particular
currency,
right,
I'm
willing
to
accept
Bitcoin
at
this
price
or
atoms
at
this
price
in
payment
of
my
debts.
So
we
can
put
this
all
together
into
essentially
a
graph
right.
We
have
the
the
thick
lines.
Are
the
straight
lines?
Are
the
obligations
right?
These
are
people
that
know
each
other
at
the
bottom.
Here.
I
What
we're
representing
is
basically,
oh,
do
I
have
a
no,
oh.
No,
you
can't
see
it
all
right
too
bad
at
the
bottom.
Here
we
have
what
we're
calling
a
liquidity.
Source,
it
could
be
atoms
basically
and
we
break
it
into
into
four
nodes
right.
So
we
have
the
assignment
node,
that's
the
A
on
the
left.
Those
are
the
positive
balances
you
can
draw
on.
We
have
the
overdraft
node.
I
Those
are
negative
balances
you
can
draw
on,
and
then
we
have
a
repayment
and
deposit
nodes
where,
where
people
accept
the
currencies
back
to
right-
and
so
essentially
we
have-
you
know
firm,
a
on
the
left
there
and
firm
B
on
the
right
and
some
a
bunch
of
nodes
in
the
middle
right
and
so
firm
a
owes.
The
middle
node
who
owes
B
A,
has
a
tender
saying
I'm
willing
to
pay
in
atoms.
I
Firm
B
has
an
acceptance,
saying
I'm
willing
to
accept
atoms
and
in
the
middle,
the
guy
in
the
middle
is
just
going
to
get
set
off
right.
So
no
money
actually
has
to
move
through
the
chain.
It
only
has
to
move
from
the
beginning
to
the
end,
so
A's
atoms,
even
though
A
and
B
don't
have
a
relationship
by
mapping
out
the
structure
of
the
obligations
A's
atoms
can
be
transferred
to
B
and
all
the
debts
in
between
can
get
set
off
right,
very,
very,
very
powerful.
I
Now
we
can
actually
combine
different
sources
of
liquidity.
We
can
have
Fiat
and
crypto
and
we're
showing
a
similar
thing.
We
have
a
chain
a
b
c.
We
have
another
chain
dbe
now,
A
and
C
are
willing
to
use
Fiat
and
D
and
E
are
willing
to
use
atoms
and
B
isn't
willing
to
use
dirty
Fiat
or
coins
at
all.
B
only
wants
to
settle
in
gold
bars
right,
but
there's
no
gold
bars
available
for
settlement
and
and
so
B
will
accept
set-off
notices.
I
But
what
happens
here
is
because
A
and
C
are
willing
to
use
Fiat
and
D
and
E
are
willing
to
use
crypto
atoms.
Let's
say
and
B
is
in
the
middle
B's
get
B's
debts
get
reduced
without
him
having
to
touch
Fiat
or
crypto
at
all
right,
so
real
people's
debts
can
be
reduced
without
them.
Having
to
touch
any
currency
at
all,
simply
because
there
are
other
people
in
the
network
willing
to
touch
that
currency.
I
So
if
there's
a
small
number
of
people
willing
to
pay
in
atoms
and
a
small
number
of
people
willing
to
to
receive
atoms
and
there's
a
large
number
of
other
people
in
the
middle
that
don't
want
to
touch
atoms
at
all,
they
can
still
benefit
right
and
real
debts
can
be
reduced
because
of
a
small
number
of
people.
Willing
to
use
will
only
use
that
up.
So
this
is,
you
know,
really
profound
consequences,
because
it
means
we
can
start
to
use
cryptocurrency.
I
Normally,
if
I
want
to
make
a
payment
with
a
cryptocurrency,
my
counterparty
has
to
accept
it
right.
I,
say:
I
owe
you
money?
Will
you
accept
atoms
and
they
say
oh
they're
kind
of
volatile?
You
know
maybe
I'll
take
some
usdc.
You
know
something
stupid
like
this
right,
but
it's
never
going
to
work
if
we
have
to
have
that
dumb
negotiation
every
time.
So
what
we
want
is
for
the
people
who
really
care
to
be
like
yeah
I
want
to
pay
an
atoms,
I,
freaking,
love,
atoms
and
I
want
to
pay
in
them.
It's.
J
The
first
kind
of
modern
proof
of
stake
networks
where
you'd
have
slashing
and
the
kind
of
security
guarantees
were
created
in
2019,
so
it
was,
it
was
tazos
and
Cosmos.
Basically,
the
first
two
of
those
networks
that
launched
and,
of
course,
today,
right
I,
think
a
huge
part
of
the
crypto
economy
is
secured
by
proof
of
stake.
You
know
correspond.
We
started
in
2018
as
one
of
the
first
before
say
companies,
but
a
lot
of
the
companies
today
that
are,
you
know,
problem
proof
of
stake
started
around
then
when
Cosmos
got
started.
J
So
this
is
before
the
cosmos
launch
and
you
know
to
date
we
run
an
infrastructure
around
40,
different
networks,
we've
over
one
billion
dollars
staked
and
you
know-
have
around
140
000
people
or
accounts
taking
with
us,
so
a
distaking
economy.
Today,
right
so
you
have
around
109
billion,
that's
staked
right
now
and
if
you
ex
so
the
total
crypto
market
cap
is
1.2
trillion
and
if
you
slew
Bitcoin,
if
you
include
the
stable
coins
you're
down
to
around
500
billion.
So
this
is
around
20
of
the
entire
crypto
market
cap.
J
J
Yeah,
what's
also
worth
noting
right
is
that
staking
is
This
this
term
that's
being
used,
but
it's
being
used
for
a
lot
of
different
types
of
mechanisms.
Right,
there's
a
big
differences
in
house
taking
works
so,
for
example,
if
you
just
take
Cosmos
in
ethereum
right
in
Cosmos,
as
we
all
know,
you
can
just
make
a
transaction
choose
a
validate
or
delegate.
It's
very
easy.
You
can
do
it
with
any
amount.
J
A
validators
can
have
any
amount
staked
with
them
right,
there's
no
limit,
which
is
very,
very
different
from
ethereum,
where
basically
it's
32e
per
node.
You
know,
if
you
have
more,
if
you
need
a
spin
up
a
new
node,
if
you
have
less
than
33,
if
you
can
stake
it,
so
there's
a
there's,
no
end
protocol
delegation.
J
So
there
is
a
big
differences
here
and
I
think
this
is
also
expressed
when
you
look
at
sort
of
the
type
of
staking
products
that
are
being
created
and
the
type
and
that's
you
know,
the
diversity
here
is
changing
a
lot
like
just
if
you
look
at
a
few
of
the
things
that
we're
doing
so.
Okay,
you
have
delegation
which
we
all
know
from
the
cosmos,
ecosystem
and
you're
all
familiar
with,
and
then
you
know,
white
label
validators
were
basically
okay,
you're
running
a
validator
on
behalf
of
some
other
entity
right
on
their
name.
J
So
this
is
also
one
thing
that
happens
liquid,
staking
I'm,
going
to
talk
more
about
that
or
then
kind
of
institutional
type
products
where
you
know,
building
apis
and
integrating
with
exchanges
or
wallets
or
different
types
of
places
that
have
their
own
customers
and
want
to
offers
taking.
You
know
in
a
smooth
way
for
them.
J
So
let's
talk
about
some
of
the
main.
You
know
some
of
the
main
Trends
in
staking
at
the
moment,
so
one
is
liquid
staking
right
again
the
the
idea
of
liquid
taking
has
been
around
for
a
long
time.
I
mean
we
wrote
a
paper
at
correspond
about
liquid
sticking
in
2019.
That
I
think
was
the
first
one
to
sort
of
mention
the
term.
But
again
the
idea
was
actually
I.
Think
in
the
cosmos
ecosystem.
We
probably
did.
The
most
sort
of
you
know
explore
these
ideas
or
it
was
us.
J
It
was
also
Sunny
from
osmosis
who
did
work
on
that.
It
was
a
other
team.
Some
teams
in
Korea
called
Everett,
so
there
was
a
lot
of
early
attempts,
but
if
you
look
at
it
today,
right
and
Cosmos
actually
only
about
one
percent
of
the.
So
this
is
now
the
cosmos
Hub
right
only
about
one
percent
of
the
staked
value
is
stake
through
liquid
staking.
So
this
is
still
very
small,
whereas
on
ethereum
it's
39,
so
it's
it's
really
a
huge
amount,
I
mean,
of
course,
so
20
out
of
50
billion.
J
Now,
why
is
that
I
think
this
has
a
lot
to
do
with
what
I
said
before
about
the
staking
design
where
on
ethereum
you
know
you
had
no
withdrawals
and
you
couldn't
take
less
than
32
Eve,
so
it
really
drove
people
to
using
liquid
staking
because
of
how
the
base
layers
taking
protocol
was
designed
on
Cosmos.
Really,
it's
very
easy
for
anybody
to
stake
right.
So
the
kind
of
the
reason
to
use
a
liquid-saking
protocol
is
a
lot
less
I.
J
Think
the
one
thing
that
you
have
in
Cosmos,
for
example,
why
you
may
want
to
use
the
liquid
sticking
protocol
is
because
you
say,
oh
I
want
to
reuse
the
collateral
and
I
earn
more
yield.
But
of
course,
for
that
you
need
to
have
a
lot
of
D5
protocols.
You
need
to
actually
have
those
yield,
earning
opportunities
and
they're
still
pretty
scarce
at
the
moment.
So
I
think
that's
why
we
have
not
so
much
adoption
at
the
moment
on
liquid
staking
here.
J
However,
I
think
it's
pretty
clear
that
liquid
staking
you
know
it's
very
attractive
product
and
we
continue
to
grow,
probably
in
the
next
bull
market.
When
there's
a
lot
of
things
to
do
with
liquid
stick
acid,
we're
also
going
to
see
it
can
grow
a
lot
on
Cosmos
and,
of
course,
Cosmos
liquid
shaking
is
pretty
new.
We
have
the
two
main
here
stride
and
Quicksilver,
and
you
know
they've
all
launched
within
the
last
like
six
months
roughly,
but
there
are
some
interesting
questions
around
liquid
staking.
J
You
know
one
of
the
questions
that's
being
debated.
A
lot
is:
is
this
a
sort
of
when
you
take
all
Market?
Are
we
going
to
see
one
protocol
that
dominates
because
if
you
just
have
one
protocol,
one
liquid
shaking
asset,
you
can
have
all
the
liquidity
around
it?
So
that's
one
thing:
that's
being
discussed
a
lot.
Certainly
you
know.
If
you
look
at
ethereum
where
the
market
has
been
going
for
quite
a
while,
you
have
Lido,
that's
like
very
dominant,
or
can
we
see
diversity
of
solutions
right?
J
Can
you
see
three
four
five
second
protocol,
maybe
more
that
somehow
all
managed
to
thrive,
which
might
be
better
from
some
perspective
in
terms
of
decentralization,
but
it
might
not
be
feasible
and
then
I
think
one
thing,
that's
also
being
discussed
a
lot
on
ethereum
right
now,
and
it
was
discussed.
A
lot
in
Cosmos
in
the
past
is
what
is
the
impact
or
the
kind
of
relationship
between
governance
and
liquid
staking?
So
you
know,
does
something
like
ldo
become
a
sort
of
liquid
state
like
a
governance
player
for
ethereum
almost
so
this
is
liquid.
J
Actually,
Cosmos
is
probably
one
of
the
ecosystems
where,
besides
his
theorem,
there's
the
most
going
on
in
Med
and
there's
a
lot
of
different
approaches
that
are
being
taken
in
Cosmos
as
well,
they're,
quite
interesting
because
in
Cosmos,
because
in
Cosmos
you,
you
have
a
lot
more
control
over
the
chain,
because
you
have
the
governance
that
controls
a
particular
chain,
a
particular
application.
You
know
you
can
do
particular
things.
So
there's
two
things
that
come
to
mind
you
know
one
is
that
you
can
potentially
say
hey.
J
Let
us
try
to
capture
the
Mev
as
a
protocol,
so
this
is
what
osmosis
is
doing
where
they're
basically
having
skip
as
a
third
party
right
software
that
will
like
capture
the
Mev
as
it
happens
and
then
kind
of
pay
it
back
to
us
most
stakers.
So
this
is
one
thing
that's
being
done
in
Cosmos,
and
another
thing
here
is
that,
if
you
think
of
things
like
sandwich
attacks
that
are,
you
know
sensibly
negative
for
the
users,
then
you
could
say
this
is
damaging
the
chain
and
you
know
in
ethereum
a
validator.
J
Maybe
doesn't
care
right
because
there's
so
many
validators
everybody's
doing
it
there's
no
delegation,
but
in
Cosmos
you
know
you're,
depending
on
delegation
as
a
validator.
So
if,
if
people
see
oh,
my
validator
is
doing
something:
that's
damaging
the
chain
just
to
make
some
short-term
profit,
then
they're,
probably
going
to
lose
delegation,
so
I
think
we
haven't
really
seen
any
of
this
harmful
extraction
from
validators
and
Cosmos
and
I.
Think
actually,
Cosmos
chains
are
pretty
well
set
up
for
that
not
to
happen
from
a
validated
perspective.
J
Meb
is
actually
pretty
interesting
because
it's
one
of
the
only
places
where
you
can
potentially
differentiate
right,
where
you
can
generate
a
higher
return
than
other
violators,
because
if
you
think
of
the
other
categories,
new
tokens
are
being
issued.
That's
a
network
parameter,
you
can't
change
it
as
a
validator
and
if
you
think
of
gas
fees
that
the
users
pay
well
again,
this
is
not
something
that's
under
your
control,
but
Meb
it
can.
You
have
you
are
able
to
have
some
influence
there.
J
That's
pretty
ethereum
specific
at
this
point
and
I,
don't
think
it's
really
happening
on
any
other
chain
in
a
meaningful
to
a
meaningful
extent,
and
so
I
think
when
it
comes
to
the
future
of
Mev,
it
is
really
very,
very
open
and
very
unclear.
There's
a
lot
of
different
things
happening.
A
lot
of
you
know
new
protocols
that
are
being
created
on
top
or
also
changes
that
are
made.
J
Do
the
fundamental
base
layer
to
sort
of
take
into
account
the
Meb
and-
and
you
know,
there's
different-
there's-
definitely
a
sort
of
fear
around
Mev
that
you
know
is
it
going
to
become
something?
That's
very
centralized
it's
controlled
by
a
bunch
of
trading
companies
that
are
integrated
with
validators
and
they're
sort
of
then
starts
to
resemble
what
people
are
maybe
seeing
in
the
traditional
Finance
space.
Or
do
you
see
much
more
of
a
sort
of
open
system
where
there's
a
lot
of
different
participants
in
different
markets?
J
And
you
know
it's
maybe
transparent
and
more
sometimes
it's
called
like
Democratic,
but
I
think
this
is
really
very,
very
open
and
especially
also
opening
Cosmos.
So
you
know
we
also
we've.
Also,
of
course
one
of
us
been
working
with
dydx
on,
like
exploring
how
Mev
could
best
be
handled
for
app
specific
decks
like
dydx,
is
and
and
there's
going
to
be,
a
report
coming
out
on
that
I
think
in
in
August,
so
two
more
so
restaking
I
think
is
another
one
of
the
topics.
J
Basically,
when
you're
staking
you're
locking
up
assets
right,
so
they
are
on
chain
and
they're
sort
of
like
frozen
there
and
and
of
course,
there's
a
question
like
let's
say:
if
you
look
at
Cosmos
the
cosmos
Hub,
then
only
five
percent
of
the
amount
that's
being
staked
is
actually
slashable,
so
you
could
say
95
of
the
tokens
that
are
being
locked
up,
they're
not
really
being
used,
and
so
the
idea
for
okay.
But
how
do
you?
J
How
do
you
address
this
or
how
could
you
deal
with
this
in
a
different
way
in
more
efficient
way,
has
also
been
around
for
a
long
time
and,
of
course,
on
Cosmos?
We
now
have
two
kind
of
Concepts
or
two
technologies
that
are
trying
to
address
this.
So
you
have
interchange
security
and
you
have
Mass
security.
You
know
both
trying
to
basically
allow
people
to
kind
of
stake
their
assets
multiple
times
at
the
same
time,
and
thus,
you
know
generate
higher
returns,
but
also
use
the
assets
better
and
provide
more
security.
J
I
know
in
ethereum.
You
know
you
have
a
project
called
eigenlayer,
which
is
also
basically
trying
to
create
a
sort
of
layer
on
top
of
ethereum,
where
people
will
be
able
to
put
the
liquid
staking
tokens
like
steak
thief
and
then
use
that
as
collateral
to
secure
additional
services
that
you
know
validate
as
a
node
operators
run.
So
you
could
imagine
something
like
chain
link.
You
know
where,
basically,
okay,
some
node
operators
run
an
oracle
service
and
people
put
up
their
stake.
J
Defense
collateral
to
guarantee
the
running
of
their
Oracle
service
and
they're
then
able
to
earn
their
if
return
from
staking
and
some
additional
returns
from
these
additional
Services
stay
secure.
So
this
is
very
early.
Right
is
restaking
topic,
but
there's
no
question
that
you
know.
In
the
long
run,
this
is
going
to
become
very
important
and
it's
going
to
lead
to
Capital
being
used
a
lot
more
efficiently.
J
But
of
course,
efficiently
also
means
that
we
are
going
to
increase
risks
right
because
you're,
basically
layering
different
levels
of
risk
and
and
of
course,
in
the
sort
of
worst
case,
you
could
imagine
some
some
kind
of
Cascades
of
failure.
You
know
where
you
have
like
something
breaking
underneath
and
then
it
erodes
the
value
and
then
some
other
protocol
building.
On
top,
that's
relying
on
the
same
thing,
all
of
a
sudden,
it's
no
longer
secured
so
I
think
it's
clear
that
there's
risks
here.
J
Twos
are
basically
blockchains
that
are
trying
to
inherit
the
security
of
another
blockchain,
and
the
idea
here
is
that
it
could
be
maybe
more
secure
and
that
the
security
can
be
cheaper.
So,
if
you
think
of
like
ethereum
right,
there's
a
huge
amount
of
staked
value,
so
can
you
build
some
kind
of
blockchain
on
top
of
ethereum
that
you
know
leverages
the
security
of
ethereum?
J
One
of
these
is
that
a
lot
of
these
Roll-Ups
right
they
have
sequencers
or
these
layer
twos
they
have
sequences.
So
they
have
a
particular
role
that
basically
takes
the
transaction
orders
to
transactions
and
puts
and
puts
and
proof
about
those
transactions
into
the
layer.
One,
and
often
this
is
you
know
just
like
one
server
at
the
moment:
that's
doing
that
and
on
the
on
the,
on
the
one
hand,
this
can
be,
you
know
somewhat
trustless,
but
on
the
other
hand,
it's
also
very
centralized.
J
So
if
you
think
about
it,
so,
for
example,
they
could
just
turn
it
off
turn
off
the
server
and
then
no
transactions
are
going
through.
So,
of
course,
this
is
a
big
challenge,
not
least
from
a
regulatory
perspective.
Well,
you
could
say:
oh,
this
is
not
yeah,
it's
just
not
very
centralized,
so
I
think
with
the
idx.
Actually,
this
is
one
of
the
main
reasons
why
they
decided.
J
Actually
we
want
to
have
a
cosmos
chain
instead
of
being
a
roll
up
because
of
the
centralization
of
of
layer,
twos
and
I
think
this
is
something
that
you
know.
Basically,
everyone
is
aware
of,
and
people
are
working
on
and
they're
trying
to
decentralize
the
sequencing.
But
of
course,
what
does
it
look
like
now?
If
you
decentralize
the
sequencing,
it
basically
means
there's
like
different
parties
that
could
fulfill
their
role
of
sequencing,
and
then
you
may
need
some
sort
of
consensus
to
agree.
J
J
First
of
all,
how
competitive
our
l2s
going
to
be
versus
app
chains
and
how
our
L2
is
actually
going
to
look
like
and
how
different
are
they
going
to
be
from
from
proof's
take
at
once,
as
they
are
trying
to
decentralize
in
the
future
and
I
think
another
one
is
of
course
ZK
Roll-Ups
again
they
bring
their
own
properties
and
they
will
have
their
own
effects
on
this.
So
yeah
I
think
this
is
another
big
questions.
Right
is
like
what
is
the?
J
J
I
think
you
know
at
this
point
staking
economy
is
like
one
of
the
kind
of
most
largest
environment
economies
in
crypto.
Cosmos
ecosystem
has
played
a
huge
role
in
that,
but,
as
we've
seen,
there's
a
lot
of
change
right,
a
lot
of
trains
that
are
still
happening
and-
and
so
I
think,
there's
no
question
right.
That
this
economy
is
going
to
look
very
different
in
the
future.
I
think.
J
What's
also,
the
case
is
that,
for
me,
from
the
kind
of
perspective
of
institutional
investors
staking
is
very
attractive
because
it's
like
stable,
predictable,
not
so
risky,
so
I
think
we
are
seeing
a
lot
of
you
know,
interest
that
will
come
in
as
more.
You
know.
More
of
the
financial
World
enters
crypto
is
going
to
go
through
staking
so
I
think.
That's
also
a
really
great
thing,
so
yeah
thanks
so
much.
B
K
K
K
At
Region
Network,
what
we're
focusing
on
is
building
a
climate
impact
stack
and
our
stack
has
three
components:
there's
an
application
layer
and
an
infrastructure
layer.
The
first
piece
is
the
regen
registry.
Our
community
is
not
a
blockchain
community,
it's
real
world
Foresters,
it's
Farmers,
it's
climate
scientists
and
they
work
together
to
create
scientific
methodologies
so
that
assets
can
be
issued
on
the
blockchain.
These
are
carbon
credits.
These
are
biodiversity
credits.
These
are
water
credits
and
regen.
K
Marketplace
is
a
space
in
which
all
of
our
technology
comes
together
insofar
as
corporate
buyers
like
Microsoft,
can
offset
their
carbon
footprint
in
our
Marketplace
and
in
2020
Microsoft
offset
125
000
credits
with
us
for
their
Moon
shackle
right.
Real
climate
change
here,
people,
and
so
we're
also
dealing
with-
is
that
the
infrastructure
layer
is
custom
built
according
to
the
Paris
climate
Accord
for
Global
carbon
accounting.
K
K
Perfect,
okay,
we'll
work
with
it.
It's
fine
I,
don't
know
how
to
make
it
full
screen.
It's
fine
we'll
make
it
work.
So
on
top
of
that,
our
infrastructure
is
neutral.
We
have
this
registry,
we
have
this
Marketplace.
We
have
this
system
of
issuing
assets,
and
so
we've
been
partnering
with
Registries
from
around
the
world
to
use
our
software.
The
city
Forest
credits
registry
is
the
U.S
national
standard
for
urban
forestry
protection
and
urban
tree
planting,
and
they
use
our
software
stack
to
issue
their
credits
onto
the
blockchain.
K
At
the
end
of
the
day
where
we're
trying
to
accomplish
is
carbon
credit,
retirement
for
real
world
climate
outcomes,
we're
a
community
of
climate
scientists
using
technology
and
so
blockchain
is
our
tool
for
data
attestation
claims
verification.
It's
about
making
information
more
public
to
the
quality
of
carbon
credits
in
the
carbon
credit
Market
can
become
more
alliterated
and
more
accessible
across
the
market.
K
K
On
top
of
that,
we're
the
team
that
originally
brought
you
the
cosmos
SDK
as
its
lead
maintainers.
So
we
have
our
app.
We
have
our
infrastructure,
we
have
your
infrastructure
and
a
bridge.
So,
as
you
can
imagine,
our
team's
been
busy
for
years,
I
was
going
to
show
you
our
Marketplace,
but
the
internet
sucks.
So
if
you
go
to
app.region.network
and
you
go
to
the
projects
page,
you
can
see
all
of
the
requirement
projects
that
have
already
been
tokenized
scroll
through
a
really
beautiful
project.
K
Page,
you
can
purchase
credits,
you
can
trade
credits
and
you
can
retire
them
for
carbon
accounting
claims.
If
I
had
the
internet
right
now,
I
would
have
showed
you
the
nebular
summit
profile.
Every
user
profile
is
public,
it
has
customizable
names.
So
it's
not
just
some
random
chain
of
letters
trying
to
figure
out
whose
profile
it
is,
and
we
partnered
with
the
nebular
summit
today
to
figure
out
the
carbon
footprint
for
this
event
and
we've
offset
their
footprint
so
that
they
can
be
carbon
neutral.
K
Oh,
our
demo
is
working.
We
have
the
internet
here
unexpected,
so
this
is
Rio
Sim.
This
is
a
Colombian
Forest
preservation
project
is
a
tokenized
bearer
credit
that
came
across
that
bridge.
We
built
with
the
token
protocol.
You
can
see
all
the
environmental
outcomes
on
the
right
hand,
side
and
every
time
you
go
on
the
app
you
can
always
see
the
issue,
tradable
and
retired
credits
to
always
see.
What's
going
on
with
this
particular
asset,
you
can
always
watch
the
video.
You
can
learn
more
about
the
information
of
the
project.
K
This
is
the
credit
batch
genome,
which
tells
you
which
credit
class,
which
project
the
times
and
which
issuance
there
is
so
in
this
demo,
we're
going
to
buy
credits
in
a
tradable
form
and
put
them
first
in
our
wallets.
So
you
choose
from
one
of
these
sell
orders,
there's
a
number
of
different
currencies
to
choose
from
and
you're,
basically
transferring
them
in
a
tradable
form
to
your
wallet.
K
You
always
get
this
lovely
sheet.
That
tells
you
what
you
just
bought
make
sure
you
got
the
right
thing
and
then
you
can
basically
go
to
your
wallet,
we're
sending
to
seb's
wallet
for
the
event
here,
one
credit
and
we're
gonna
do
it
in
a
retired
state.
So
this
is
where
we're
taking
the
carbon.
A
clowning,
claim
and
retired
means
that
we
take
it
out
of
circulation.
We're
changing
the
state
of
the
asset
from
tradable
to
retired,
on
chain
we're
going
to
kick
a
location,
we're
here
in
Paris,
the
home
of
the
Paris
climate
Accord.
K
And
now
we're
going
to
go
to
seb's
profile
for
the
event,
so
we
only
retired
one
credit
we're
going
to
retire
more
because
there's
more
than
one
ton
of
carbon
we're
using
today.
But
this
gives
you
a
sense
of
how
we
engage
with
the
app
and
how
we
provide
you
with
retirement
certificates.
So
you
can
export
out
in
case
you
want
to
send
it
to
your
mom
or
your
cousin,
or
you
know
your
company,
your
board,
people.
You
know
it's
pretty
right.
K
Whoops
go
back
so
oh
geez,
the
slideshow,
so
we've
been
running
a
campaign
with
validators
across
the
cosmos
ecosystem
for
the
last
two
years
and
it's
led
by
the
validators
and
what
they're
doing
is
they're
quantifying
the
footprints
of
all
the
protocols
across
the
cosmos
ecosystem
and
what
it's
allowing
us
to
do
is
to
identify
those
Footprints
use,
Community
funding,
purchase
and
retire
carbon
credits.
So
these
are
all
the
chains.
We
want
to
congratulate
today
that
as
communities
have
actually
already
taken
climate
action
here
in
the
ecosystem.
K
And
this
gives
you
a
good
example
of
a
profile
of
what
it
actually
looks
like
when
your
community
offsets
and
what's
lovely
about
this
is
the
evmos
community,
for
example,
has
offset
their
carbon
footprint.
You
can
transparently
see
that
they
retired
7975
credits
from
a
project
called
minadombe
and
Mina
dombay
is
a
forest
preserve
in
Cambodia,
which
has
some
of
the
world's
rarest
elephants.
K
So
I'm
going
to
tell
you
a
little
bit
about
some
of
our
real
world
projects,
real,
quick
and
then
we're
going
to
shift
gears.
This
is
the
King
County
Urban
Forest
project.
It's
one
of
the
urban
Forest
credits
portfolio
that
has
been
tokenized
onto
our
blockchain
they're.
Preserving
an
urban
Forest,
that's
under
threat
of
development
that
they
don't
want
to
have
a
turban
to
a
shopping,
mall.
K
K
K
K
And
we're
just
getting
started:
y'all
we've
issued
over
a
half
a
million
credits,
that's
worth
about
3.5
million
dollars
that
Cosmo
zero
campaign
retired
over
30,
000,
nature,
carbon
ton
credits,
the
largest
single
issuance
wave
of
carbon
credits
in
all
of
blockchain
history,
and
then
the
two
million
credits
being
issued
on
regen
registry.
Our
news
scientific
set
of
Standards
they're
going
to
have
all
these
credits
come
out
this
year
and
they're
worth
over
21
million
dollars
next
year.
K
I'm
going
to
shift
gears
for
the
rest
of
the
conversation
very
quickly
and
show
you
something
really
cool
we're
shifting
our
technology
and
it's
in
governance
right
now
to
be
able
to
have
a
permissionless
experience
for
credit
issuance.
What
that
means
is
is
that
any
Community,
Garden
or
a
local
community
project
will
be
able
to
use
the
tools
that
we
use
internally
for
yourselves,
this
is
available
already
on
testnet
dev.app.region.network,
so
you
can
go
on
there
and
play
around
with
these
tools
yourself.
K
So
this
is
Hilltop
urban
farm.
This
is
our
use
case.
I
am
the
designer
of
Hilltop
Urban,
Farm
I'm,
actually
a
landscape
architect
and
a
forever
city
planner.
So
this
is
the
US's
largest
urban
farm,
adult
farmer,
training,
program,
production,
Orchard,
youth,
Orchard,
Youth,
Farm,
Community,
Farm,
plots
community
garden,
and
this
necklace
around
my
neck
has
some
of
its
soil
So.
Today
we're
going
to
issue
credits
very
quickly
for
Our
Youth
Farm
Orchard,
and
this
is
what
it
looks
like
in
real
life
y'all.
It's
absolutely
massive.
K
So,
when
I'm
designing
my
credit
class
I,
take
my
Orchard
I
map
out
what
kind
of
trees
there
actually
are.
Where
got
apples,
plums,
cherries
and
then
I
worked
at
the
Penn
State
College
of
Agriculture
to
quantify
the
carbon
outcomes
because
they
were
the
research
professors
that
chose
the
climate,
appropriate
rootstock
for
this
area
and
so
I'm
doing
a
very
simple
calculation
as
an
example
of
how
I
can
count
up
how
many
credits
these
trees
have
produced
from
like
metric
tons
of
carbon
pulled
out
by
the
trees
over
the
last
five
years.
K
K
This
allows
me
once
I
have
a
crediting
standard
to
issue
a
project,
so
here's
the
farm,
here's
the
standard
and
I
issued
the
credits
already.
This
is
Miss
Amy
right
here,
so
this
gives
you
a
real
quick
example
of
how
you
have
a
real
place.
You
have
real
people,
you're
doing
real
things
and,
unlike
a
lot
of
the
other
projects,
you're
going
to
hear
from
today,
it's
a
lot
of
tech
talk,
we're
a
lot
of
people
talk
and
a
lot
of
place.
K
K
It's
a
top
five
food
desert
in
the
city
of
Pittsburgh.
This
has
quadrupled
the
amount
of
food
grown
in
that
City
by
one
site.
It's
the
single
largest
location
to
affect
that
City's
climate
action
plan,
and
they
should
be
able
to
issue
credits
for
themselves.
They
should
be
able
to
design
those
credits
because
they
designed
that
space,
they
work
with
their
communities
and
they
Implement
real
world
land
regeneration.
K
I
believe
we
have
both
a
moral
obligation
and
a
huge
opportunity
here,
and
so,
if
you
understand
a
lot
of
what's
available
right
now
in
osmosis
there's
all
this
liquid
carbon
hundreds
of
thousands
of
tons,
this
community
can
program
that
into
its
depths
we
can
come
up
with
retirement
aggregators,
there's
so
many
tools
that
we
can
alliterate
off
of
this
fundamental
architecture.
Now
that
we
have
done
it
and
I
believe
that
if
we
don't
do
something
soon,
this
is
really
going
to
get
away
from
us.
And
ultimately
this
is
a
room
filled
with
people.
K
Some
of
you
have
children.
You
have
families
and
it's
only
going
to
get
worse.
If
we
don't
do
something,
and
so
we're
at
a
point
where
we're
trying
to
make
our
tools
more
available
to
everyone,
behave
more
permissionlessly
behave
more
eid-like
give
people
the
tools
on
a
very
small
scale
basis,
one
little
farm,
one
little
city,
one
little
town,
that
you
can
basically
communicate
what
you
are
planting
in
the
ground
and
how
you
want
to
approach
it
for
yourselves.
K
K
At
the
end
of
the
day,
if
we
don't
do
something
it's
going
to
affect
all
of
us
and
that's
why
we
keep
building
it
regen
Network,
where
we're
building
a
origination
software,
where
we're
bringing
all
these
projects
into
the
pipeline
from
across
the
world,
and
so
it's
my
honor
and
my
privilege
to
create
in
this
community
of
people
who
actually
care
about
real
world
change.
The
experience
that
people
have
in
communities
and
the
experience
that's
happening
on
the
ground,
so
thank
you
for
listening
have
a
nice
day.
B
No,
that
was
great.
Thank
you
Sarah
for
that
chat.
We
again
we
will
be
moving
on
it
will
be.
We
will
be
having
a
lunch
break
after
this
chat,
but
I
think
seb's
gonna
come
and
have
a
a
little
word
about
something
as
well,
so
we'll
just
hold
fire
for
for
two
minutes,
but
I
would
like
to
introduce
the
next
speaker,
the
CTO
and
co-founder
of
injective
labs,
Albert
John.
B
D
D
D
D
D
And
I'll
speak
a
little
bit
about
interoperability,
so
interoperability
is
at
our
core.
Injective
connects
with
numerous
blockchains
from
numerous
blockchains
through
IBC,
through
with
axillar
and
Wormhole,
and
even
our
own
native
ethereum
bridge,
but
for
us
interoperatively
extends
Beyond,
just
blockchain,
bridging,
but
also
within
the
chain
itself
and,
most
importantly,
compared
to
other
limit
order
book
Dex
protocols.
The
order
book
on
injective
is
fully
composable
with
smart
contracts
and
cost
of
awesome.
Awesome.
D
Now
cosmosum
is
a
great
framework
and
it
has
native
compatibility
with
injective,
but
we
found
that
for
new
developers,
the
the
learning
curve
for
onboarding
Cosmos,
even
if
they
already
know
rust,
is
quite
High.
There
are
many
Concepts
specific
to
Cosmos
and
Cosmos
that
you
have
to
learn
and,
as
we
spoke
to
many
developers,
especially
those
coming
from
Solana,
we
heard
these
criticisms
and
difficulties
for
them
to
even
deploy
the
basic
application.
Basically,
you'd
have
to
not
only
rewrite
their
application
code,
but
you
know
have
to
learn
all
these
new
Concepts
and
secure
security
guarantees.
D
So
we
took
these
considerations
to
heart
and
tried
to
build
a
solution
for
them
that
they
could
use
and
my
clicker
is
still
not
working,
and
that
is
Cascade,
which
is
the
first
interchange
Salon
svm
roll-up.
So
with
Cascade
developers
from
Solana
can
utilize
all
of
the
benefits
of
the
SPM
and
create
applications
that
leverage
IBC
and
cross-chain
interoperability,
which
I'll
explain
in
more
depth.
D
So
first
I'll
speak
about
about
integrating
Roll-Ups
from
an
app
change
perspective.
So
first,
why?
Why
should
we
integrate
a
roll-up,
particularly
in
svm
roll
up,
and
why
does
this
make
sense
for
injective?
The
first
is
that
it
provides
a
diverse
programming
environment
and
it
lowers
the
barrier
for
entry
for
developers
coming
from
the
svm
or
even
the
evm
world,
with
evm
robes
on
injective
and
second
horizontal
and
vertical
scalability.
So,
on
the
horizontal
scalability
side,
you
can
charge
your
execution
essentially
between
different
execution
environments.
One
is,
of
course
the
svm.
D
The
other
is
the
native
injective
layer
and
on
the
vertical
scalability
side,
the
svm,
of
course,
is
renowned
for
its
multi-threaded
runtime
and
offers
parallel
transaction
processing,
which
is
very
powerful
for
scaling.
You
know
modern
applications
and
the
final,
but
I
would
say
most
difficult
piece
is
on
interoperability.
Making.
Essentially,
these
svm
contracts
be
able
to
compose
with
injective
through
IBC
and
currently
with
with
Roll-Ups.
You
have
a
seven
day,
fraud,
proof
window,
which
makes
it
very
hard
to
compose
in
a
vanilla
implementation.
D
And
of
course
you
know,
modern
D5
applications
require
fast
finality.
You
don't
want
to,
you
know,
place
an
order
for
a
trade
wait
seven
days
before
it
gets
filled
right.
That's
that's
simply
ridiculous.
So
how
can
we
do
this?
I?
Can
summarize
the
current
approaches
to
cross-chain
interoperability?
As
I
mentioned
for
optimistic
rollups,
you
have
a
fraud
proof
dispute
period
that
you
must
wait
to
wait
for
which
results
in
terrible
ux.
D
There
are
also
solutions
that
use
what
are
called
committee
based
committee
based
interoperability,
and
these
include
Wormhole,
axlr,
hyperlane
and
I
would
also
categorize
these
as
not
ideal.
They,
they
embed
a
security
assumption
in
the
validator
set
and
they're,
while
they
are
useful
for
applications
that
wants
to
you
know,
take
advantage
or
or
adhere
to
that
security
assumption.
I
would
not
use
them
as
a
foundational
model,
for
let's
say
the
roll
up
there.
D
D
There
is
some
interesting
work
with
ZK
IVC,
which
Jack,
zampolin
and
I
believe
another
team
is
working
on
that
deserves
some
note.
That's
still
in
development,
though,
and
finally,
there
are
Astro
based
approaches,
for
example,
Dimensions,
esteroid,
IBC
or
eibc,
which
essentially
uses
a
a
market
maker
or
some
liquidity
provider
to
take
on
the
risk
of
having
these
tokens,
be.
D
D
And
the
idea
here
is
that
how
can
we
bypass
the
fraud
proof
window
of
optimistic
rollups,
since
this
is
a
major
impediment
towards
IBC
interoperability?
And
the
idea
here
is
injective
validators
will
run
a
roll-up
full
node
and
attest
to
the
role
headers
on
on
the
blocks
on
injective.
So
the
mental
model
analogy
you
can
use
is
suppose
you
have
a
ZK
roll
up,
but
you
replace
the
ZK
proving
system
with
just
the
validator
signatures
and
you
essentially
get
the
same
security
guarantee
and
what's
different
here.
D
Is
that
because
it's
a
it's
an
L2
of
an
L1
with
a
you
know,
fixed
validators
or
not
fixed,
but
a
smaller
validator
set
you're,
not
making
any
incrementally
worse
security
assumptions
than
you
were
already
making,
and
that's
also
why
ethereum
would
never
do
this
because
you
could
never
get
ethereum
to
sign
off
on
their
entire
validator
set
to
have
to.
You
know,
be
burdened
with
this
with
this
requirement
and
just
to
go
over
the
mechanism
a
little
bit
in
more
depth.
D
The
validators
continue
to
track
new
headers
of
the
roll
up
attest
to
them
on
injective,
the
mechanism
of
which
can
be
done
as
an
implementation
detail
using
vote
extensions
which
are
nice
because
they
allow
you
to
do
this
in
process
or
just
with
normal
transactions
from
the
validator,
and
once
two-thirds
of
these
validators
have
attested
to
the
correct
header.
The
header
is
committed
to
the
state
on
injective
and
now
because
it's
on
the
state
of
injective,
the
header
can
be
proven
using
a
like
client
and
the
IBC
packet.
D
I'm
also
very
excited
to
announce
the
partnership
with
espresso
systems
on
bringing
decentralized
sequencers
to
injective.
So
special
systems
has
I,
I
would
say
the
most
state-of-the-art
technology
in
the
roll-up
sequencer
space,
and
our
overall
goal
is
to
work
towards
Atomic
composability
for
espresso's
decentralized
sequencer
for
its
shared
sequencer.
Actually,
you
can
have
fast
finality
with
secure
transaction
ordering
and
strong
data
availability
guarantees.
What's
interesting
is
that
in
a
roll
up
to
roll
up
setting.
D
So
in
the
scenario
where
you
have
multiple
Roll-Ups
on
injective,
you
can
have
Atomic
cross-rollope
transactions,
and
this
allows
for,
in
some
cases,
cryptographically
guaranteed
on
Cross
roll
up
production,
bundles
and,
in
other
cases,
crypto
economically
assured,
Crossroad,
bundles
and
that
and
that's
using
a
block.
Builder
with
proposal.
Builder
separation
and
the
final
boss
to
conquer
I
would
say
would
be
shared
sequencing
or
Atomic
imposibility
between
injective
layer,
one
and
a
roll
up,
and
there's
an
open
question
about
how
this
can
be
done.
D
It's
actually
unsolved
and
whether
it's
even
feasible
to
have
shared
sequencing
shared
sequencing
on
with
the
Sovereign
L1.
There
are
some
ideas
based
off
heterogeneous
paxos
and
some
other
ideas
like.
Perhaps
we
can
bring
PBS
to
Tender
mint
and
you
know,
use
ABC,
plus
plus,
prepare
and
process
proposal
for
this,
or
maybe
we
can
even
not
have
not
aim
for
Atomic
impossibility,
but
have
a
more
best
effort
or
Optimist
optimistic
atomicity.
These
are
questions
that
we
are
now
pondering
in
this
design.
D
Space
to
a
force
eventually
improve
the
ux
for
cross-chain
interoperability
and
taking
a
step
back
I'd
like
to
remark
on
the
power
of
self-sovereign
intraoperable
application,
specific
blockchains,
you
know
some
of
the
design
choices
or
things
within
our
consideration
would
never
be
possible
on
on
later
on
ethereum
right,
the
concept
of
having
validators
do
work,
for,
let's
say,
a
testing
to
roll
up
headers.
That
would
never
be
acceptable
in
ethereum,
not
to
mention
the
slow
pace
of
movement
of
development
and
the
ossification
of
standards,
and
this
is
the
sort
of
thing
I
I
guess.
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
M
N
N
Apologies
for
those
technical
issues
this
morning
we're
getting
them
sorted
out.
Hopefully
the
Wi-Fi
will
come
back
to
life,
but
we're
here
for
great
content.
That's
what
matters
and
we've
got
lots
of
great
content
for
you
this
afternoon
as
well.
I
want
to
mention
a
few
things
you
may
have
noticed.
There's
a
guy
painting
outside
right.
You
also
may
have
noticed
that
it
is
the
art
of
the
t-shirts.
N
So
say:
Lake
did
the
art
on
the
t-shirts
and
I'm
really
quite
I,
I
love
the
t-shirts.
I
hope
you
like
them
too,
and
you
all
also
will
notice
that
we
have
QR
codes
to
claim
different
badges
for
today.
So
creds
has
the
verifiable
credentials
that
proves
you
were
at
nebular
Summit
and
that
you
can
add
to
your
list
of
verifiable
credentials
and
we
also
have
a
stargaze
badge.
That
is
the
artwork
of
today's
conference.
N
By
claiming
this
badge
you
are
part
of
the
nebular
community,
and
this
will
give
you
access
to
some
cool
perks
in
the
future.
Maybe
some
discounts
on
future
events
Etc
so
be
sure
to
claim
your
badge
go
and
say
hi
to
silique
the
artist
and
we're
going
to
have
some
other
interesting
things.
We're
going
to
be
doing
with
this
art,
so
we're
going
to
be
auctioning
off
a
unique
nft,
a
one
one
issue,
nft
of
the
real
life
art
that's
being
done
outside
and
the
art.
N
Actually,
the
the
physical
art
is
going
to
be
destroyed
and
that
unique
nft
will
be
auctioned
and
will
give
the
owner
of
this
nft
lifetime
access
to
nebular
and
the
proceeds
will
go
to
a
diabetes
charity.
That's
to
Lake,
really
really
likes
so
we'll
be
doing
that
tomorrow,
everybody
will
get
an
email.
If
you
want
to
get
access
to
that,
you
can
bid
on
this
nft
on
stargaze
and
we'll
give
you
lifetime
access
to
nebular.
So
you
get
to
come
for
free
for
life.
N
B
I
need
the
mic.
There
you
go,
it
would
help
if
he
gave
me
the
mic
back,
wouldn't
it
just
to
mention.
Actually,
the
the
next
speaker's
hyperlane
have
sponsored
the
ice
cream
downstairs,
so
make
sure
you
go
down
and
get
yourself
an
ice
cream
and
now
I'd
like
to
introduce
the
next
speaker,
which
is
John
Carl,
the
CEO
of
hyperlane.
If
you'd
like
to
come
and
join
me
and
crack
on
with
your
presentation.
O
O
So
if
you're
here
you're,
probably
a
cosmonaut,
and
you
got
to
give
yourself
a
little
bit
of
credit
because
you
were
right,
Cosmos
app
change
thesis
was
right.
It's
been
right
for
years,
and
now
it's
manifesting
outside
of
the
cosmos
everyone's
talking
about
Roll-Ups.
Everyone
is
finding
a
way
to
make
creating
your
own
chain
increasingly
easier.
We're
going
to
talk
a
lot
about
this
today,
outside
of
the
cosmos,
we'll
call
them
modular
blockchains
inside
the
cosmos,
the
column
map
chains.
But
you
were
right
and
you
should
feel
pretty
good
about
it.
O
O
What
is
that
it's
a
strange
term,
but
we
like
to
think
of
how
can
we
create
a
safe,
easy
and
fast
path
between
this
increasing
number
of
modular
chains
that
are
populating
this
universe?
The
way
we
do
that
is
by
introducing
permissionless
interoperability
and
this
notion
of
modular
security.
So
these
terms
might
not
mean
a
lot
today,
but
hopefully,
by
the
time,
we're
done.
O
It'll
make
a
lot
more
sense.
So
in
our
world
we
have
these
internet
computers,
they're
very
cool,
starting
with
Bitcoin
onwards,
to
ethereum
Cosmos.
We
have
an
increasing
number
of
these
internet
computers
and
a
lot
of
the
cool
things
they
let
us
do
I
would
argue
is
mostly
due
to
the
fact
that
they
introduced
for
the
first
time
scarcity
into
the
digital
domain
in
this
introduction
of
scarcity
gives
us
everything
from
Sovereign
money
and
permissionless
access
to
computation.
O
But
with
this
comes
a
big
issue
as
we
introduce
scarcity,
we're
now
competing
for
scarce
resources
in
a
way,
so
I
really
love
this
visualization
I,
don't
know
if
any
of
you
have
seen
it
before,
but
it's
one
of
my
favorites.
We
got
Bitcoin
and
ethereum
blocks
visualized
as
buses
and
transactions
of
different
sizes,
visualizes
these
little
South
Parky,
looking
characters.
O
O
In
the
case
of
of
blocks,
there's
surge
pricing
and
what
does
search
pricing
mean
so
like?
Why
are
you
here
today
you're
here,
because
you
care
about
crypto,
you
care
about
blockchains,
and
all
of
us
are
working
to
increase
the
demand
for
these
blockchains,
but
we
just
talked
about
digital
scarcity.
So
if
we
do
that,
what
is
that
going
to
actually
mean
we're
going
to
compete
for
them
and
we're
going
to
run
into
these
issues?
O
We're
going
to
cover
it
in
more
depth
today.
But
for
now
all
you
need
to
know.
Hyperlane
is
a
permissionless
interoperability
layer
and
the
only
important
thing
to
take
away
from
it
is
it's
a
tool
that
we're
building
to
let
anyone
connect
any
chain
and
any
chain
is
the
really
important
part
here
we
want
to
allow
you
to
be
able
to
cross
between
different
VMS
between
different
instruction
sets
fairly
easily
should
be
able
to
connect
evm
chains
with
different
Cosmos
app
chains
with
solana-like
chains.
O
So
hyperlane
is
how
we
hope
to
allow
to
anyone
to
do
that
and
we're
coming
to
Cosmos.
So
in
the
next
couple
of
months,
hyperlane
will
be
implemented
as
a
cosmos,
SDK
module,
thanks
to
the
amazing
work
of
the
Strange
Love
team
it'll
be
implemented
as
a
cosmos
implementation,
thanks
to
the
great
work
of
the
mitosis
team.
If
you
happen
to
be
at
modular
Summit
the
other
day,
it
may
have
caught
Sunny
from
osmosis
talking
about
their
interest
in
using
hyperlane
to
connect
with
rollups
so
come
into
the
cosmo
soon.
O
But
why
isn't
this
the
case
today?
Why
is
it
that
outside
of
IBC
pretty
much
every
form
of
interoperability,
especially
ones
that
pertain
to
generalized
message,
passing
they're
all
permission?
You
always
have
to
ask
someone
to
add
you
to
support
your
chain
to
support
your
environment.
Why
is
that?
I
would
argue
that
it's
primarily
because
of
the
fact
that
interoperability
today,
especially
in
the
form
of
generalized
message,
passing,
takes
the
form
of
tightly
coupling
the
messaging
interface
on
one
hand
right.
This
is
the
product.
O
This
is
what
you're
coming
for
when
you're
using
such
an
interoperability
protocol
and
it
tightly
couples
it
with
the
security
model.
Doesn't
have
to
be
this
way.
It's
not
written
anywhere
that
this
is
the
way
that
it
has
to
be,
but
for
some
reason
it
just
is
so
with
hyperlane.
We
believe
that
modular
chains
deserve
modular
security
seems
like
an
abstract
concept.
Let
me
try
and
make
it
a
little
bit
more
Vivid.
O
Everyone
here
probably
has
a
bank
account.
I
have
one
too,
maybe
I
shouldn't,
but
I
do
and
when
I
try
to
withdraw
a
small
sum
say
fifty
dollars
from
my
bank
account
I
just
need
a
PIN
I
can
use
the
machine.
I
don't
have
to
do
any
special,
any
special
processes
for
it.
The
security
protocol
for
such
a
small
transaction
enter
your
PIN,
take
out
your
money
but
say
I
try
to
do
a
much
more
meaningful
transaction.
I
try
to
wire
fifty
thousand
dollars
out
now
I
get
ran
through
a
different
security
protocol.
O
The
bank
now
wants
to
see
my
identification.
They
want
to
ask
my
name.
They
want
to
ask.
Who
else
is
on
the
account?
Do
I
have
do
I
recognize
any
of
the
past
10
transactions?
Is
there
a
recurring
direct
deposit
on
my
account?
They
run
me
through
a
series
of
questions
and,
if
you
ever
tried
to
close
your
bank
account
and
withdraw
all
the
money.
O
In
the
same
day,
they
ran
you
through
an
interrogation,
and
you
probably
know
you
probably
have
a
certain
feeling
right
now
as
you're
hearing
this,
because
you
know
how
difficult
it
is
to
close
a
bank
account
in
the
western
world
nowadays.
So
what's
the
bank
doing
different
security
for
different
contexts
of
your
user
action,
but
we
don't
do
this
in
crypto.
We
certainly
don't
do
this
when
it
comes
to
traversing
between
different
chains,
whether
you're
moving
a
hundred
dollars
or
a
hundred
million
dollars.
O
We
treat
you
exactly
the
same,
but
when's
the
last
time
you
saw
a
nine-figure
transaction
that
wasn't
an
exploit
that
wasn't
a
bona
fide
hack
right,
rarely
happens.
So
what
is
revealed
then
that
once
you
introduce
this
ability,
a
lot
of
people
are
starting
to
think.
You
know
what
this
is
sensible.
Maybe
we
should
have
different
security
protocols
for
different
actions,
and
this
is
something
that
hyperlane
brings
to
the
four
normally
and
I.
Remember
I
said
we're
going
to
go
a
little
bit
off.
O
Script
tend
to
go
over
different
forms
of
interoperability,
different
flavors,
but
everyone
here,
if
you're
in
Cosmos
you're,
probably
very
familiar
with
it.
So
we'll
do
this
really
quickly,
so
you
have
native
verification,
basically
I'm,
just
trusting
both
chains
that
I'm
traversing
between
and
I
don't
introduce
anything
in
the
middle.
If
we
could
do
this
everywhere,
we
would
we
can
do
this
everywhere,
where
we
have
tendermen
chains.
We
can
do
this
beautifully
with
IVC,
but
you
want
to
do
it
in
other.
O
In
other
instruction
sets
you
want
to
do
this
in
the
evm,
it
becomes
very
costly
and
obviously
this
is
changing
by
the
day.
For
the
amazing
work
of
folks,
like
polymer
and
other
teams,
but
today
this
is
still
quite
costly.
It's
quite
difficult
to
do
so.
Oftentimes
we
have
to
resort
to
external
verification,
same
concept,
still
trusting
the
two
chains
connected,
but
now
we
have
to
add
something
in
the
middle
and
that's
our
external
verification.
O
So
where
does
this
come
into
modular
blockchains
right?
We
just
talked
about
how
there's
going
to
be
an
increasing
number
of
them.
There's
many
great
people
that
are
working
towards
increasing
the
ease
by
which
we
can
create
our
own
modular
blockchain,
and
so,
if
all
this
Resorts
and
now
that
I
can
create
my
own
modular
blockchain
in
less
than
10
minutes,
how
am
I
going
to
just?
How
are
we
going
to
deal
with
this
if
I
only
have
a
permission
form
of
interoperability?
O
Hence
modular
blockchains
absolutely
need
permissionless
interoperability.
All
right!
You
can
see
a
world
where
they
keep
proliferating
and
as
the
number
of
app
chains
as
the
number
of
app
specific,
Roll-Ups
and
generalized
rollups
continues
to
increase.
We
absolutely
need
a
way
for
the
users
of
those
chains
and
the
creators
of
those
chains
to
connect
with
anyone
at
will
on
their
rules,
so
these
Sovereign
Roll-Ups
need
Sovereign
interoperability,
cyberlain
lets
you
do
that
and
on
this
little
schematic
here
we
see
the
full
life
cycle
of
a
hyperlane
message.
O
Only
a
couple
things
to
really
pay
attention
to
our
mailbox.
Simple
program
sends
and
receive
messages.
It
does
exactly
what
it
sounds
like,
because
it's
a
mailbox,
then
we
have
a
relayer,
a
permissionless
role.
Anyone
can
relay
the
transactions
that
flow
between
any
mailbox.
You
could
relay
your
own.
An
app
can
choose
to
relay
their
own,
a
specific
chain
team,
a
roll-up
could
choose
to
relay
their
own
transactions
and,
lastly,
the
most
important
part.
O
Our
interchange
security
modules,
right
where
this
notion
of
modular
security
comes
to
the
four.
So,
let's
run
through
a
transaction
with
hyperlink,
you
send
something
to
the
mailbox
in
that
message
that
you
send
you
specify
the
destination.
Where
is
it
going
to
both
the
chain
and
the
contract?
There
might
be
several
of
them,
and
then
you
send
some
arbitrary
bytes.
This
could
be
called
Data
to
initiate
a
function
call
on
the
destination.
Maybe
you
want
to
initiate
a
swap.
Maybe
you
want
to
borrow
something
with
a
draw,
something
maybe
a
mixture
of
those
actions.
O
This
could
be
an
asset
transfer
or
it
could
be
as
simple
I
wouldn't
recommend
this,
but
you
could
just
send
a
message
to
ask
me
how
I'm
doing
but
I'm
happy
to
tell
you
off
chain
then,
depending
on
the
security
configuration,
we
might
have
some
type
of
Observer,
some
type
of
either
a
staking
validator,
either
a
watchtower
and
an
optimistic
transaction
they're
looking
at
the
mailbox
and
then
when
some
conditions
are
achieved,
they
sign
they
attach
a
digital
signature.
To
that
message
attesting
to
what
the
validity
of
what
they
just
saw
on
the
other
chain.
O
We
have
our
security
module.
Think
of
this
as
logic
through
which
some
conditions
that
you
set
like
what
we
just
talked
about
with
the
bank.
Doing
when
I'm
trying
to
make
my
my
large
wire
transfer,
so
a
certain
transaction
size
might
route
to
a
different
different
security
model,
a
certain
type
of
action.
Perhaps
an
upgrading
action
can
go
through
a
different
security
module
and
then
we
have
a
relayer.
The
relayer
is
always
looking
at
the
mailbox.
O
It
sees
your
message
if
it
sees
some
signatures
there,
it's
a
all
right,
great
I'm,
ready
to
send
it
home
and
then
the
relayer
initiates
the
process
function
on
that
destination.
Mailbox
we're
not
done
yet.
That
means
that
that
transaction
was
included
in
a
block
on
the
second
chain,
but
it
still
needs
to
pass
the
tests
of
The
Interchange
security
module
and
if
it
does
only
if
it
does,
does
it
proceed
to
its
destination
that
final
contract,
the
other
side
of
your
app,
what
happens
if
it
failed?
What
if
it
failed
the
test?
O
O
So
what
does
this?
Let
you
do.
Modular
security
can
take
many
different
forms.
You
can
have
Economic
Security
where
people
are
staking
assets.
They
could
stake
any
asset
with
hyperlane's
variant
of
modular
security.
If
you're
an
app
chain,
you
could
leverage
your
existing
validators
and
staking
of
your
main
of
your
main
asset,
to
provide
Economic
Security
for
messages
that
are
being
sent.
But
what
if
say,
you
only
have
10
million
dollars
of
Economic
Security
and
I'm
trying
to
do
a
transaction
for
20..
O
That's
not
enough.
What
do
we
do
then?
So
then
we
could
route
it
through
a
different
module
for
those
cases.
We
could
route
it
through
an
optimistic
module.
In
the
optimistic
case
we
wait
a
certain
amount
of
time.
We
wait
an
amount
of
time
that
you,
as
the
implementer
can
figure.
Maybe
you
want
to
wait
five
hours?
Maybe
you
want
to
wait
12.
Maybe
you
want
to
wait
24
or
7..
It's
really
up
to
you
during
that
time.
O
O
Lastly,
you
could
even
do
something
as
simplistic
as
a
multi-sick.
Maybe
you
just
want
to
get
started.
You
just
want
to
test
it
out.
You
have
a
group
of
people
that
you
feel
are
trustworthy.
Maybe
it's
reputable
businesses,
maybe
it's
your
own
team,
so
you
can
have
a
security
module.
That
is
just
a
multi-sig-based
validator
scheme,
so
that's
available
as
well,
but
the
cool
thing
about
this,
not
just
that
you
can
route
based
on
the
context
of
what
users
are
doing.
You
can
continuously
update
your
security
settings.
O
O
So
with
hyperlane
we
envision,
ultimately
a
market
of
different
security
modules
and
that
type
of
Open
Marketplace
is
something
we
think
will
help
spur
a
lot
of
innovation
and
allow
people
to
stay
at
this
to
always
be
at
the
state
of
the
art
when
it
comes
to
security.
You'll
never
feel
as
if
security
has
passed
you
by,
because
you
can
always
change
to
the
latest
and
greatest
one
way
to
make
this
more
particularly.
Vivid
is
through
an
example
that
runs
through
bridging
something
that
probably
everyone
here
has
experienced
at
one
point
or
another.
O
O
O
A
warp
route
is
individualized
for
an
asset
or
group
of
assets
and
each
can
have
configurable
security.
So
you
can
have
a
warp
route
going
say
from
ethereum
into
your
app
chain.
So
and
you
can
have
a
single
warp
route
for
usdc,
but
a
different
warp
route
for
usdt,
and
then
you
can
have
different
settings
such
that
when
we
have
a
50
million
dollar
usdc
transaction,
let's
treat
it
in
one
way,
but
when
we
have
a
five
thousand
dollar
usdc
transaction,
let's
treat
it
in
another.
O
So
what
else
can
you
do
with
hyperlane?
You
can
have
interchange
swaps,
swapping
without
a
need
for
bridging
by
utilizing
liquidity
pools
on
both
sides.
You
can
have
interchange
accounts.
The
really
cool
concept
of
interchange,
accounts
introduced
in
Cosmos
is
something
that
hyperlane
is
extended
beyond
beyond
the
cosmos
into
different
instruction
sets.
O
O
And
lastly,
my
favorite
use
case
is
interchange
margin,
but
we
went
off
script
too
much
so
we
ran
out
of
time.
We
can't
talk
about
today.
What's
the
end
game
for
hyperlane
looks
like
in
a
roll-up
networking.
It
looks
like
more
competitive
relayer
services
that
security
module
Marketplace
that
I've
talked
about
and,
of
course
it
wouldn't
be
a
crypto
conference
in
2023.
If
we
didn't
talk
about
intents,
it's
obviously
interchange
intense.
So
if
you
have
any
questions
you
can
go
to
our
docs,
you
can
join
our
Discord
at
slash
hyperlane.
O
B
B
H
B
B
L
G
G
G
P
So,
first,
what
is
canoe?
Gno
name
it
the
way
you
want
it's
an
ecosystem
made
for
smart
contracts
for
Timeless
contract
contracts.
You
can
trust
contract.
You
can
read
transparent
contracts,
interoperable
contract,
so
basically
imagine
virtual
big
mono,
repo
and
building
a
new
ecosystem
of
applications
and
continue
developing
the
runtime
big
application
collaborative
like
a
collaborative
VM.
P
P
P
So
the
language
we
created
the
language
actually
first
question
can
be
why,
if
you
want
to
write
blockchain
contracts
right
now,
you
have
basically
an
options
to
learn
a
new
language
like
solidity,
another
option
to
use
custom
with
them
or
other
translation
of
existing
language
reason
to
blockchain,
and
we
choose
another
option,
which
is
to
create
a
new
language
Wizards
with
a
syntax.
You
already
know
so.
Gonoring
is
a
new
blockchain.
It's
a
new
language.
P
It's
not
it's
not
because
I'm,
it's
not
because
I'm
with
them,
please
go
why
we
can't
make
golang
contract
because
it's
not
deterministic,
it's
not
built
for
blockchains,
so
cornering,
is
basically
a
gun
with
determinism
and
with
no
or
no
translation,
no
binary
codec.
So
all
the
things
you
will
have
with
cosmosom,
for
instance,
where,
where
the
language
is
designed
for
many
usages,
including
developing
mobile
application
web
application
contracts.
P
So
we
remove
all
the
all
the
translation
between
another
world
and
the
language
to
make
dedicated
language
focus
on
the
logic
it's
interpreted,
meaning
that
all
the
contracts
are
uploaded
as
source
code
and
not
at
binary,
meaning
that
it's
not
possible
to
actually
not
audit.
What
not
be
able
to
audit
what
you
want
to
execute.
P
P
P
There
is
a
building
rendering
option,
meaning
that
you
cannot
adapt
with
the
front
end
on
the
side
or
you
can
use
a
built-in
modeling
system.
So
as
a
developer,
you
publish
your
contract
and
that's
all
no
need
to
ask
for
AWS
server
or
whatever
simple
example
of
Uno
code.
So
this
is
a
full
contract.
This
contract
is
not
very
useful,
but
just
to
show
you
that
we
don't
have
an
RM,
we
don't
load
any
database.
We
don't
answer
the
blockchain
to
allocate
some
state
or
whatever,
with
different.
We
increment
the
Contour.
P
If
you
look
at
cosmoism
and
rest,
it
will
be
kind
of
similar
so
along
which
people
already
know,
but
we
need
to
have
specific
Libs
just
to
interact
with
the
blockchain
so
hear
about
loading,
the
state
manipulating
the
state
and
saving
it,
and
if
you
just
look
at
standard,
go
application
so
basically
not
a
web
3,
just
a
simple
program
that
will
store
something
at
the
end.
You
still
have
to
load
database
file
whatever
and
save
it.
So
when
you
come
back
to
you
know,
it
just
focuses
on
the
logic.
P
The
main
blockchain
it
is
based
on
VM,
so
the
language
and
then
I'm
into
two
meaning
that
you
can
run
your
own
chain
without
techno,
but
we
want
these
chain
specially
to
contain
all
the
best
contracts
with
or
without
state.
So
you
can
maybe
expect
to
have
a
username
Service
Learning
on.
You
know
that
you
can
use
on
any
other
blockchain,
meaning
that
at
some
point
you
can
have.
You
can
just
here,
write
your
small
application
and
relying
on
the
existing
social
network
from
another
chain.
P
If
you
have
a
good
implementation
of
what
is
a
token
or
liquidity
pool
pattern
or
whatever
you
can
also
include
just
a
library
from
another
organovium
chain
and
sorry
and
just
write
your
code
on
your
blockchain,
it
will
be,
there
will
be
a
series
of
Univision
based
chain
manage
basal
core
team.
So
anyone
can
build
the
canovium
chain,
but
we
will
also
provide
multiple
ones.
P
This
one
is
specific
to
all
the
source
to
be
there
for
many
many
years,
while
we
will
have
other
specialized
blockchain,
but,
for
instance,
for
our
Computing
needs,
storage
needs
or
sharding
and
yeah.
There
is
a
philosophy
of
keeping
things
simple,
I
think
a
secure
reliable,
so
you
can
trust
it.
Basically,
winner
land
will
be
finished,
it
will
run,
but
there
is
a
plan
that
there
is
no
update
upgrade
as
soon
as
we
can.
So
you
can
rely
on
neat
and
not
expect
it
to
change
for
whatever
reason.
P
In
terms
of
interrupt
so
just
after
the
magnet
we
release
the
IBC
driver,
so
we
can
connect
to
existing
Cosmos
chain.
We
want
to
have
you
know,
being
a
uics
consumer
of
the
cosmos,
herb
and
Woodland
will
be
an
ICS
producer
for
gonuvian
based
chain,
so
chain
running
VM
can
be
secured
by
ignorant
and
can
receive
all
the
contracts
developed
in
government
yeah.
We
will
also
specialized
nodes,
such
as
eye
storage,
eye
Computing
Etc,
and
we
will
have
a
charting
just
to
manage
to
keep
blockchain
small
while
having
basically
yeah
virtually
infinite
capacity.
P
We
plan
to
improve
IBC
for
all
the
things
we
are
doing
so
right
now
we
are
working
on
IBC,
2
IB
signal
ibcx.
We
don't
have
the
name,
but
basically
it
is
an
implementation
of
a
new
protocol
that
you
can
call
from
the
contracts,
meaning
that
it's
not
just
about
sending
tokens
memo
or
craft
alternative
things.
It's
about
right,
defending
the
structure
you
want
from
your
contracts.
P
You
can
define
a
structure
with
pointers
with
a
with
net
State
fields
and
basically
interact
with
other
contracts
on
other
chains
or
local
IBC
on
the
same
chain,
while
preserving
all
the
richness
of
your
types,
the
security
and
everything.
So
it
will
bring
permission
sabc
where
you
can
expect
new
features.
New
ABC
features
to
be
developed,
but
just
just
by
developing
contracts,
there
is
a
there
is
an
attempt
to
create
a
protocol
so
that
it's
not
limited
to
Google.
P
This
no
limitation
could
also
just
go
further
after
Cosmos
and
even
go
to
solidity,
and
not
only
ignore
2,
because
there
was
a
other
contract
and
Cosmos
so
yeah.
The
goal
is
to
have
IBC,
which
made
a
good
job
at
being
the
cross-border
payment,
let's
clean
on
the
website,
to
something
more
about
cross-border
applications
on
microservices.
If
you
come
from
the
web
too,
so
we
are
building
clients
and
sdks
when
we
say
no
SDK,
it
can
be
many
things
actually.
P
Currently,
the
goal
is
to
have
clients
when
it's
about
consuming
the
train.
So,
for
instance,
we
suggest
JavaScript
ecosystem.
You
can
have
a
client
just
for
the
block
1492
another
one
for
no
VM
understanding
the
contracts
and
all
we
or
we
basically
manage
the
data
and
another
one
which
would
be
the
condolent
client.
So
you
can
just
connect
to
the
chain
with
a
simple
library
and
just
consume.
The
data
interact
with
the
contract
upload
new
contract,
Etc
SDK,
which
is
actually
the
competitor
of
Cosmos
sdks.
P
On
the
same
on
the
same
goal,
to
make
app
chains,
DK
no
SDK
has
the
same
goal,
but
it's
fully
contract
Centric,
meaning
that
most
of
the
things
you
will
want
to
to
change
in
your
in
your
chain
could
most
of
the
time
just
be
a
decision
made
by
the
Dao,
and
you
won't
need
to
ask
your
validators
to
update
their
node.
So
we
still
have
some
similar
sorry,
some
usual
updates,
but
we
can
prevent
some
of
them.
P
The
goal
was
to
rely
on
the
unified
transparency,
because
what
we
do
with
the
VM
is
just
to
give
the
merchant
ecosystem
you
can
have
for
contracts
both
for
looking
at
the
source
and
the
state.
If
you
do
this
for
the
com
for
the
chain
config,
if
you
also
have
all
the
governance
which
is
transparent,
you
can
expect
to
give
a
Clear
Vision
of
what
is
currently
running
at
what
version
with
what
parameter
with
watch
with
which
Ludwig
and
what
can
actually
have
an
impact
on
the
chain.
P
P
And
yeah
the
focus
of
the
SDK
actually
is
to
become
the
bridge
between
the
contract
and
the
chain.
The
contract
can
ask
some
information
to
the
chain
thanks
to
the
API,
like
as
loading
a
bunker
receiving
information
through
channels,
but
the
goal
was
to
for
the
chain
to
be
able
to
consume,
interact,
checked,
check
the
contract,
so
it
addressed
the
chicken
egg
problem
because
you
can
have
a
chain
relying
on
contract
before
the
contract
are
published
and
the
goal
is
to
make
it
simple.
P
So
you
can
start
with
simple
blockchains,
and
then
you
have
the
choice
for
local
various
test,
Nets
main
Nets
or
other
other
options
so
yeah
to
to
basically
decide
what
driver
you
want
for
your
feature,
and
this
SDK
is
actually
just
a
plan
right
now,
because
we
have
SDK
features
implemented,
but
it's
not
yet
generic.
We
want
to
focus
on
having
good
Noland
working
efficiently
and
then
it
will
become
generic
for
everyone.
P
So
potential
API
of
the
final
generic
SDK
could
be
like
this
so
waste
from
your
base,
app
from
Google
to
check.
If
your
realm
exists
to
load
it
as
a
object,
so
that
you
can
iterate
about
the
state,
so
it's
lies
an
object
whatever,
meaning
that
you
can
just
read
everything
without
execution,
so
something
very
cheap
in
execution.
P
P
P
An
example:
so
if
you
have
a
contract
named
air
system
configure
which
expose
a
proposed
applying
other
method
to
a
Dao,
the
Dow
will
take
the
decision
of
changing
a
limit
or
whatever.
As
soon
as
there
is
an
apply,
you
will
have
the
base
app
subscribing
on
the
change
and
applying
the
change
yeah
instantly.
P
A
similar
similar
need,
so
basically
we
don't.
We
won't
use
proof
of
stake,
but
proof
of
contribution
and
proof
of
contribution
is
using
like
a
proof
of
authority
mechanism
where
the
list
of
validator
is
decided
by
an
authority
accepted
to
Authority
is
a
Dao,
so
there
will
be
a
contract
that
the
devil
can
interact
with
to
change
the
validator
set,
and
the
goal
is
to
have
the
change
subscribing
on
the
changes.
So
they
can
so
it
can
be
applied
instantly
once
decided.
P
The
goal
is
to
have
the
blockchain
always
sending
all
the
guest
fees
to
a
bunker
of
a
module.
So
by
default,
everything
is
just
sent
from
very
cheap
computing
power
to
a
tool
bunker
managed
by
by
your
contracts.
Then
you
can
add
your
contract
managing
the
logic.
So
in
the
example,
the
contract
is
importing
other
contracts
to
get
the
current
state
of
validators
to
get
the
current
demo
members
and
the
goal
is
to
have
the
contract
performing
the
split
and
sending
the
rewards.
P
Another
example
is:
oh,
we
want
to
basically
have
the
same
as
your
experience
and
with
GitHub
on
GitHub.
You
don't
upload
whatever
you
want
in
terms
of
package,
but
always
inside
your
name
space.
So
the
goal
is
to
allow
anyone
to
publish
contracts
under
the
namespace,
so
the
username,
but
also
under
the
organization
and
spaces.
So
if
you
are
a
team
member
of
an
organization,
you
can
upload
contract
because
you
match
a
certain
rule
defined
by
the
contract,
and
here
the
blockchain
is
just
hooking,
the
ad
PKG.
P
And
if
you
want
to
no
more
participate
contribute,
we
have
an
ongoing
competition
named
gamer
friends
where
the
goal
is
to
help
us
create
gamer
friends,
create
the
devil,
contribute
earn
points.
So
this
is
an
incentivized
competition,
but
the
goal
is
still
to
basically
contribute
because
by
contributing
to
the
chain
before,
during
and
after
the
competition,
you
gain
basically
contribution
points
that
will
give
you
the
ownership
of
the
chain.
P
B
Lovely
thank
you
for
that.
Manfred
I,
just
want
to
mention
before
I,
introduce
the
next
speaker
to
remember,
to
go
and
claim
your
check
D
credentials
to
prove
that
you've
been
to
modular
Summit,
nebulous
Summit,
sorry
right
and
that
yeah
now.
That
leads
me
to
introduce
our
next
speaker,
who
is
the
CEO
and
co-founder
of
check
D
Fraser
Edwards.
If
you'd
like
to
come,
do
your
presentation?
Please
this
one
hand
Ling
that
one
try.
It
does.
H
It
work
awesome,
cool
right,
hi,
all
so,
I
wear
the
it's
been
a
long
day.
It's
been
a
long
week.
This
room
is
noisy
as
so
I'll
do
a
lot
of
shouting.
If
no
one
can
hear
me
at
the
back,
just
yeah
raise
a
hand
and
I'll
try
and
Shout
louder,
but
today
we're
basically
going
to
talk
about
like
how
weird
checks
and
credits
are
trying
to
eliminate
scamming
and
Discord.
H
H
Oh
if
I
go
back
interesting,
introducing
creds.
So
those
are
the
QR
codes
that
you've
seen
like
scattered
around
all
over
the
place
and
they'll
prove
you're
here,
I
think
they're
going
to
be
used
for
a
prize
draw
tomorrow,
so
actually
make
sure
you
do
it
and
also
use
for
various
things
in
the
future.
H
So
again,
it's
a
problem.
It's
a
massive
problem!
There's
a
next
slide
is
that
how
much
money
disappears,
but
these
are
just
a
few
examples
of
just
how
endemic
this
problem
is
and
how
impactful
it
is
and
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
gets
lost
is
like
this
shapes
the
opinion
of
the
outside
world
of
crypto
and
web3.
H
The
fact
that
there
is
such
like
high
scamming,
even
though
the
same
thing
goes
on
in
fear,
that
it
just
like
crypto
and
web3
just
gets
hammered
for
the
same
thing
I'm
on
the
additional
things
that
we've
seen
recently
is
that
that
trend
is
going
to
get
worse
with
things
like
generative
AI
chat,
GPT,
where
you
can
generate
massive
amounts
of
content
and
just
use
that
to
scam
people,
it's
the
scammers.
It's
always
a
cat
and
mouse
game
with
scams
and
so
therefore
like
as
soon
as
the
tour
is
out,
they
start
using
it.
H
So
everyone
in
here
will
have
a
version
of
this
somewhere
in
their
telegram
or
Discord,
especially
if
you're
running
a
a
layer.
One
a
lot
of
them
are
like
exchange
it
like
fake
exchanges,
approaching
people,
people
pretending
to
be
like
c-suite
of
companies
trying
to
get
money
from
you
and
and
the
reality
is
they're
crude,
but
they
work.
H
I
know
there
are
people
in
this
room
who
have
fallen
to
some
of
these
scams,
they're
going
to
name
who
they
are
but
like.
It's
proof
that
this
is
a
problem
and
it
does
happen
and
it's
why
they
carry
on
doing
it,
and
this
then
steps
into
like
the
numbers
of
all
of
this.
So
if
you
look
at
the
sheer
amount
of
scams,
this
was
just
reported
to
to
the
US.
H
It
works
out
around
a
billion
a
year,
which
is
pretty
chunky
when
you
look
at
like
the
even
the
tvl
of
like
crypto
in
general,
but
it's
just
damaging
it's
massively
damaging,
but
I.
Think
the
one
that
surprised
me
when
I
was
looking
through.
These
numbers
was
I
thought
that
it
would
be
mostly
like
exchange,
basically
fake
exchanges,
people
pretending
to
be
c-suite,
but
actually
by
Far
and
Away.
The
biggest
like
damage
is
rugs
by
far
like
that's
really
where
big
sums
of
money
disappear,
and
so
like.
H
One
of
the
things
that
we
were
looking
at
when
we
were
building
creds
out
is
how
can
we
build
trust
while
staying
Anon
or
like
a
worse
pseudonymous?
How
can
we
make
that
possible
and
then
on
the
more
positive
side
of
things?
The
good
thing
with
all
of
this
is
we
focus
very
much
on
building
for,
like
security
privacy
like
eliminating
all
this
going
stuff.
H
At
the
same
time,
the
exact
same
Tech
can
be
used
for
like
engagement
for
rewarding
people
to
build
up
positive
stuff,
like
every
speaker
who's
been
through
today
will
get
a
credential.
Every
volunteer
will
get
a
credential,
the
people
who
went
through
the
workshops.
Yes,
they
will
get
them,
and
especially
with
the
workshops.
H
That
then
proves
like
some
knowledge,
some
like
proficiency,
that
maybe
you
can
turn
into
a
career
or
a
CV,
and
so
you
can
start
to
move
this
into
gamification,
which,
as
the
numbers
on
both
the
left
and
the
right
hand,
side
show
like
it's
big
numbers
and
they
make
a
difference
in
terms
of
like
engagement,
adoption
and
even
Revenue.
So
as
much
as
we
built
this
for
security,
it's
also
entirely
usable
for,
like
just
driving
engagement,
so
very
proud
to
announce
today
with
nebula
that
we're
actually
announcing
for
the
release
of
creds.
H
It's
very
much
focused
right
now
on
like
Pro
apps
for
attendance,
but
over
the
coming
months,
we'll
be
opening
this
up.
So
anyone
can
start
issuing
so
any
other
projects.
Any
Dao
any
organization
could
start
issuing
those
credentials
but
also
start
having
those
Integrations
with
telegram
and
Discord,
where
you
can
eliminate
that
scamming
protect
your
communities
and
just
stop
this
endemic
problem
that
we
have,
and
the
key
thing
obviously
is
the
tagline.
So
your
reputation,
portable,
private
and
secure
cool.
H
So
let's
start
with
the
user
view,
so
anyone
who
scans
a
QR
code
has
probably
been
through
this
already,
but
ultimately
it
just
looks
a
lot
like
nfts
but
private.
So
the
ability
to
go
in
see
what
you're
eligible
for
what
you
can
claim
and
just
be
able
to
bring
those
into
into
your
wallet.
As
you
can
see
on
like
on
my
right.
Your
left
like
these
could
be
anything
they
could
be
social
profiles.
They
could
be
roles,
you
can
also
get
different
issuers.
H
So
right
now,
we've
got
ourselves
creds
and
nebula,
like
I
was
saying
over
those
couple
of
months
we're
going
to
be
opening
that
up.
So
anyone
could
do
this.
Anyone
can
get
involved.
Anyone
can
issue
those
out
and
one
of
the
best
things
is.
You
can
also
mix
those
together,
so
what
that
means
is
I
can
combine
credentials
from
various
different
projects.
Various
different
roles
or
various
different
events
in
any
combination,
I
choose
and
share
them
to
different
people.
So
what
that
means
is
you
can
just
build
up
that
reputation
over
time?
H
It's
not
tied
to
a
single
organization.
It's
not
tied
to
a
single,
centralized
Authority.
You
can
build
that
up
from
anywhere.
You
can
choose
what
data
comes
in.
So
one
of
the
examples
of
this
is,
if
you
scan
the
one
on
my
right,
you'll
find
that
it's
got
my
speaker,
like
my
speaker,
credential.
It's
also
got
the
fact
that
I
work
for
check
the
fact
that
I
have
some
knowledge.
H
If
you
scan
the
one
on
my
left
and
your
right
you'll
find
that
it's
just
that
I'm
an
attendee
and
if
I
don't
share
the
same
credential
to
the
same
people,
there's
no
linkage
so
I
can
just
maintain
complete
privacy
and
anonymity
or
pseudonymity
by
just
not
sharing
the
same
data
with
people,
there's
no
correlation
problem
and
so
compared
to
like
nfts
or
sbts.
You
maintain
much
stronger
privacy,
and
also
this
is
completely
customizable,
so
you
can
build
up
again
any
combination
of
these
so
afterwards
like.
H
So,
if
you're
interested
in
where
we're
going
and
want
to
help
us
out,
get
in
touch
and
we're
up
in
the
booth
upstairs
we're
looking
for
user
feedback,
we
actually
want
to
be
able
to
work
with
people
to
shape
it
out
and
I
can
see
Ross
our
product
owner
at
the
back,
like
we'll
actively
work
with
you
to
go,
make
it
work
for
you
and
make
it
super
slick,
and
this
is
how
easy
it
is.
It's
basically
going
to
be
three
steps.
H
So
first
thing
just
select
a
credential
type,
so
there's
just
templates
out
like
is
it
a
role?
Is
it
an
event?
Is
it
a
ticket?
Is
it
learn
or
is
it
something
that
we
haven't
built
yet,
in
which
case
like
this
is
the
point
come
get
in
touch
next
thing
just
enter
some
details
like
pretty
quick,
everything's
templated
out
enter
that
content,
everything
that
isn't
dynamic
or
get
populated,
and
then
the
final
thing
is
literally
upload.
H
A
CSV
like
you
just
need
like
unique
identifiers
or
handles
the
type
of
credential
you're
issuing
to,
and
also
whether
you're,
like
issuing
revoking
a
credential
suspending
a
credential
or
deleting
it,
and
this
is
one
of
the
key
differentiators
here
like
you-
can
suspend
someone's
credentials
so,
let's
say
or
revoke
it.
So
a
great
example
would
be
I
work
a
checked
currently
if
I
was
to
leave
in
the
future,
someone
could
revoke
that
credential.
H
That
would
allow
me
to
still
prove
that
I
worked
at
checked,
but
not
that
I'm
currently
employed,
and
so
that
way
you
can
actually
build
up
a
CV,
that's
verifiable
that
you
can
take
pretty
much
anywhere
and
in
the
same
vein
we
can
suspend
credentials.
So
if
there's
some
worry
about,
like
is
this
person
like
acting
unethically
as
an
ambassador,
then
we
could.
H
So
I
left
Ross's
picture
in
rather
mine,
because
I
thought
I'd
Stitch
him
up,
but
you've
got
like
if
I
go
well,
my
right
to
left
your
left
or
right
you've
got
like
social
profiles,
so
these
will
be
anchored
to
like
your
telegram,
your
Discord,
your
GitHub,
your
Twitter,
and
but
you
can
share
them
across
any
channel,
so
you're
not
having
to
do
it
within
the
channel
anymore
roles.
So
are
you
an
ambassador?
Are
you
a
team
member?
Are
you
c-suite?
Are
you
in
BD
like
what
is
your
role
inside
that
project?
H
And
what
are
you
therefore
empowered
to
do
endorsements?
So
this
is
something
I
I
would
love
to
see?
Is
projects
endorsing
each
other,
so
we
can
get
rid
of
people
who
are
Bad
actors
like
if
you're
missing,
endorsements
from
people-
and
this
is
built
over
up
over
time
like
you,
don't
have
the
same
level
of
reputation
as
someone
who
has
got
multiple
people
endorsing
them,
either
for
a
skill
or
delivery,
or
just
something
and
finally
so
tickets.
So
I
think
this
is
something
that,
like
obviously,
the
guys
at
omniflex
are
built.
H
Something
fantastic
out
of.
You
can
have
the
similar
use
case
and
then
we
can
back
them
off
to
let's
say
you
want
want
to
make
an
event
which
is
only
accessible
to
people
who
have
contributed
to
your
project
over
time.
That's
something
that
all
of
this
works
with,
where
you
can
prove
that
you've
done
this
consistently
over
time,
achieved
a
reputation
and
therefore
you're
eligible
for
ticket
to
the
discount
that
maybe
other
people
aren't
and
on
the
flip
side.
H
So
this
is
some
of
the
stuff
that
we've
maybe
like
actually
launched
out
over
this
week,
so
things
like
Pro,
apps,
obviously
very
similar
to
nfts,
but
private.
You
don't
need
to
show
them
off.
If
you
don't
want
to
like,
and
then
they
become
available
learning
credentials,
so
the
workshops
yesterday,
do
you
want
to
demonstrate
that
you
went
through
a
tutorial
that
you
went
for
a
quiz
that
you
went
through
a
workshop?
Is
that
relevant
for
a
job
that
you're
about
to
to
kind
of
go
for
achievements?
Were
you
early
into
a
community?
H
Are
you
a
whale?
Do
you
want
to
dislike
be
able
to
show
that
off
without
also
doxing
the
address
that
is
tied
to
that?
That's
something
we're
able
to
do
so,
you're
able
to
prove
that
like
I
own
something
within
a
set
without
actually
giving
away
any
of
the
details
of
exactly
that
address
and
I
guess.
The
final
side
is
what
I
was
reiterating
earlier
like?
Is
there
something
we're
missing
like?
H
Is
there
a
credential
that
you
want
to
build
out
like
we
know
from
some
of
the
guys
in
other
projects
they
want
to
be
issuing
carbon
credentials,
they
want
to
issue
credentials
to
show
their
projects
have
offset
offset
their
projects.
Sorry
offset
they're
like
they're
carbon
and
their
energy
usage,
and
they
want
to
be
able
to
demonstrate
that
elsewhere.
H
H
So
this
is
very
a
lot
along
the
lines
of
like
decentralized
id
self-solvering
id.
The
data
is
under
your
control,
it's
under
your
like
ownership
and
therefore
what
we've
essentially
got
is
someone
issuing
or
creating
credentials,
someone
receiving
or
verifying
that
data,
but
individually,
everything
is
under
the
control
of
the
holder.
H
The
beauty
of
the
system
is
again
like
all
that
data
Roots
off
ledger.
So
what
that
means
is
super
private.
No
one
can
see
it
unless
you
share
it,
but
also
the
the
volumes
and
the
scale
that
we
can
do
are
just
absolutely
colossal,
because
we're
not
tied
one
to
one
to
The
Ledger.
We
can
get
huge
numbers
of
credentials
out
to
people
in
a
very,
very
quick
way,
that's
very,
very
efficient.
H
Ultimately,
when
that
data
arrives
at
the
other
end,
they
can
check
the
cryptography,
Against,
The,
Ledger
and
again,
if
anyone
has
any
more
technical
questions,
we're
up
at
the
booth
and
anchor
from
our
team
ran
a
session
this
morning,
which
delved
into
more
of
the
specifications
all
that
kind
of
stuff
and
if
that's
recorded,
hopefully
everyone
will
be
able
to
go
and
check
that
out,
but
the
main
focus
of
this.
So
this
is
where
I
want
to
spend
probably
more
time
than
any
other
slide.
So
this
is
actually
how
we
built
this
into
telegram.
H
So
the
whole
owners
here
is
on
whoever
is
messaging
and
initiating
contact
and
trying
to
kind
of
do
the
scam
or
initiate
the
relationship
has
to
prove
who
they
are.
They
has
have
to
be
able
to
prove
like
who
they
work,
for
what
their
role
is.
Wiring
it
like
interacting
with
them
and
the
whole
idea
here
is.
H
It
should
be
available
in
the
next
couple
of
weeks
and
we're
doing
the
same
thing
in
Discord
like
Discord,
obviously
is
again
a
hotbed
of
scamming,
and
we
really
need
to
go
and
get
this
sorted
out
so
in
in
probably
a
week
or
two
we'll
be
announcing
that
this
is
out
from
then
that
point
onwards.
Anyone
that
our
our
team
messages
like
use.
This
like
check
our
credentials
out,
make
sure
that
it
works.
H
Like
challenge
us
ask
for
the
credentials
that
we
we
should
have,
and
if
you're
getting
messaged
by
someone
who
is
president
pretend
to
be
us,
they
won't
be
able
to
fulfill
this
anymore,
and
that's
the
beauty
of
this,
and
obviously
like
I,
was
saying
the
focus
on
this.
On
this
kind
of
session
has
been
getting
those
credentials
out
the
door
like
getting
these
Pro
apps,
like
launching
this
properly
over
the
next
month,
we'll
be
working
on
issuance
and
actually
rolling
this
out
for
any
other
project.
Who
wants
to
use
this
and
so
again
like?
H
If
anyone
wants
to
come
to
come
to
us
and
help
us
shape
that
user
Journey
shape
those
credentials
and
help
protect
our
communities
get
in
touch,
because
that's
exactly
what
we're
here
for
so
I've
only
got
four
minutes
left
I'll
go
through
the
roadmap
really
quickly,
and
that
covers
off
like
a
lot
of
what
I've
already
started
discussing.
So
obviously,
the
biggest
thing
I
mentioned
was
a
Creator
admin
dashboard.
H
So
that's
for
say
your
community
managers
it's
for
anyone
in
BD
who
wants
to
be
able
to
prove
who
they
are,
but
also
then
moving
down
into
like
Telegram
and
Discord
integration.
So
exactly
what
I,
just
kind
of
explained
earlier,
the
ability
to
check
who
someone
is
without
needing
to
leave
that
Channel
at
all
one
of
the
things
that
we've
of
like
the
whole
purpose
of
checked,
which
is
ended
up
in
the
in
this
demo,
is
building
out
payment
infrastructure
for
decentralized,
ID
and
credentials.
H
So
what
that
means
is
the
ability
to
if
someone
issues
a
credential
get
paid
whenever
that
credential
is
used
in
the
future.
So
for
anyone
in
this
room
who
is
like
wanting
to
issue
Pro
apps
wanting
to
issue
learning
credentials
or
role
credentials,
we
can
actually
set
this
up
so
that
there's
a
recurring
model
where
those
are
paid
for
and
now
be
built
into
cred.
So
it's
just
seamless
and
one
of
the
things
that's
like
probably
reasonably
immediate-
is
gamification.
H
So,
for
example,
how
many
like
were
you
within
the
first
five
of
whatever
it
is?
Were
you
the
first
person
to
collect
that
credential?
Does
that
give
you
something
that
is
even
more
like
Niche
or
like
constrained
than
someone
who
just
has
that
credential
in
the
first
place,
but
also
how
many
times
have
you
shared
that?
How
many
times
have
you
shared
that
credential
and
I
think
at
some
point
either
me
or
Daniel
will
be
explaining
that,
like
sharing
these
credentials
is
going
to
be
part,
I
think
of
a
prize
draw
tomorrow.
H
Hence
the
drive
for
like
collecting
these
things
sharing
them
around.
But
then
we
go
into
like
Q4
and
Beyond,
which
is
like
use
case.
Specific
functionality
trusted
creatorless.
So
what
that
means
with
the
trusted
Creator
list
is
no
one
can
impersonate
you.
They
can't
be
someone
who
spins
up
like
a
checks,
copy
copycat
and
manages
to
get
through
that.
H
So
what
that
would
mean
is
like
maybe
I
need
kyc,
because
I'm,
a
D5
exchange
or
I'm
a
bank
one
of
those
two,
on
the
other
hand,
I,
might
just
be
operating
with
someone
peer-to-peer
I,
don't
care
anything
about
kyc,
all
I
need
to
know
is,
do
they
own
their
own
handle?
Is
that
accurate?
Have
they
been
part
of
the
Dow
that
I'm
part
of
for,
like
the
long
enough
time
have
we
like
built
this
established
trust?
H
That
is
usable
for
that
for
that
interaction,
and
then
a
news
feed
so
link
to
like
having
a
profile
page
like
if
you're
sharing
things
publicly
actually
showing
that
being
shared
like
actually
it's
public
and
then
once
we're
Beyond
this
we're
into
like
more
of
the
longer
term
stuff.
So,
obviously,
a
big
focus
on
this
is
It's
enabled
for
Community,
which
obviously
gets
tightly
closed
in
with
like
marketing
and
that
side
of
things
so
building
out
campaigns
like
how
are
those
behaving?
H
How
are
the
credentials
you're
issuing
being
being
kind
of
tracked
so
like
how
are
they
being
collected?
Are
they
being
collected
early
like
what
is
the
revenue
on
certain
credentials?
How
does
that
break
down
by
type
and
similar
on
the
analytics
mod
like
again?
How
are
they
breaking
down
by
time?
How
do
you
filter
that
out?
How
do
you
know
what
is
working
and
what
isn't
working?
Do
you
know
that
you're
protecting
your
users?
H
Are
you
still
vulnerable
to
what
we
were
saying
earlier
and
then
getting
into
things
like
gating,
avatars
and
also
connecting
in
different
data
sources?
So
we
know
a
lot
of
Cosmos
projects
use,
for
example,
zeli
and
so,
for
example,
like
hooking,
in
with
zeli
or
layer
three,
that
kind
of
thing
where
you
can
bring
in
your
rank,
your
leadership
and
all
those
kind
of
things,
so
that
you
can
actually
build
that
reputation
up
across
projects
and
be
able
to
share
it
dynamically.
H
H
This
will
prove
that
you
basically
attended
this
there's
QR
codes
died
around
all
of
the
basically
the
entire
venue,
which
is
for
actually
going
and
collecting
just
proof
that
you
were
attendee
and
if
you
want
to
come
and
like
actually
shape
how
this
is
going
to
get
built
out,
shape
out
the
journey
either
come
up
to
the
booth
or
drop
us
a
note
at
the
the
Partnerships
email
down
there
and
I
mean.
Ultimately,
all
of
this
is
about
protecting
people
and
engaging
them,
and
hopefully
that's
something.
B
B
So
we
have
moderating
is
Matthias
wherever
Mateus
is
just
working
as
well
now,
and
then
we
also
have
Cam
benbrick
who's
the
go
for
the
strategy
for
imperator
and
we've
also
got
Federico
Colma,
who
is
the
co-founder
of
evmos,
also
joining?
So
if
you
guys
can
come
up
and
start
cracking
on
with
your
panel
yeah,
unfortunately,
Dev
bear
is
not
here.
Unless
a
bear
does
appear
all
of
a
sudden,
then
we
will
bring
out
another
chair.
B
G
Q
Okay,
hey
everybody:
first
quick
introduction:
I'm
Matthias
I'm,
one
of
the
partners
at
Maven,
11
and
part
of
our
Venture
investment
team.
Today
we
will
be
doing
a
panel
on
how
to
skill
Unchained
governance
to
kick
things
off.
I.
Think
it's
good.
If
we
start
a
quick
introduction,
even
though
most
people
here
will
know
you
well
so
Frederico.
R
S
S
T
Evm
compatible
L1
built
on
Cosmos
SDK.
We
replace
proof
of
stake
with
what
we
call
proof
of
liquidity,
which
aligns
liquidity,
incentives
and
things
between
validators
and
users
on
the
chain
and,
lastly,
we
built
Polaris,
which
is
an
evm
equivalent
framework
to
allow
other
chains
to
integrate
evm
into
their
Cosmos
SDK
based
blockchain.
We.
Q
R
S
Yeah,
so
my
thought
on
Ancient
governance
is
like.
It
also
depends
on
what
ecosystem
you're,
referring
to,
for
example,
I
think
that
a
cosmos
is
quite
well
advanced
in
terms
of
governance
compared
to
ecosystems.
Like
you
know,
ethereum
also,
oh
any
other
options
like
that,
because
on
Cosmos
you
also
have
like
governance
at
the
chain
level
and
because
you
have
governance
at
the
chain
level,
you
have
stakeholders
such
as
validators
that
are
quite
involved
in
terms
of
governance
and
I.
Think
so
the
thing
is
that
we
still
have
some
issues
to
face.
S
For
example,
if
you
take
the
example
of
the
cosmos
Hub
and
you
check
all
the
validators
on
the
customers
have
the
top
the
first
one.
The
first
value
that
on
the
customer
service
is
coinbase
and
Cosmic.
Coinbase
is
not
participating
at
all
on
governance,
so
I
would
like
to
see
also
more
development
around.
You
know
some
work
with
centralized
exchanges
so
that
they
can
give
the
opportunity
to
use
to
their
users
to
give
the
opportunity
to
vote
on
Governors,
for
example,.
T
I
think,
what's
cool
about
that
is,
it
removes
a
lot
of
the
the
nuance
and
things
from
the
actual.
You
know
the
proposal
and
like
just
texting
in
English
language
and
allows
you
to
be
really
expressive
on
exactly
what
actions
are
going
to
happen
and
what
you
want
to
do
from
a
code
perspective.
So
I
think
things
like
that
are
really
interesting
and
can
help
reduce
miscommunication
and
improve
clarity.
Q
Okay,
thanks
so
I
think
we're
at
a
cosmos
ecosystem.
Obviously
a
lot
of
course
most
people
have
facing
the
world
with
like
hundreds
or
thousands
of
app
chains.
How
can
we
keep
I
mean
it's
also
the
name
of
the
panel
Unchained
governance
scalable
for
users.
I,
don't
want
to
spend
all
my
time.
Reading
proposals,
Etc
watch
your
visionaire
Frederica.
You
can
go
first.
R
My
take
is
not
all
decisions
should
be
taken
by
every
boater.
That's
why
you
have
representative
democracy
like
governance
today,
it's
not
democracy
in
the
sense
of
like
one
One
account
one
vote,
because
now
that's
not
civil
resistant,
but
what
we
do
should
definitely
do
is
how
can
we
scale
governance
by
having
more
representation
and
more
delegation
I?
Think
a
good
framework
to
do
this
is
liquid
democracy.
R
So
how
can
we
have
more
expertise
specifically
for
like
technical
topics?
How
can
we
delegate
those
boats
from
balladers
to
like
more
technical
Representatives
that
might
be
like
more
suited
for
different
actions,
so
in
this
case
a
delegator
instead
of
allocating
or
or
delegating
their
votes
to,
a
specific
validator
can
delegate
to
another
person
to
vote
on
their
behalf
with
their
voting
power
on
a
specific
topic,
and
so
that
I
think
for
scaling.
R
R
I
think
technical
decisions
are
definitely
out
of
the
hands
and
then
that's
when
we
see
higher
rates
of
Border
apathy,
but
I
think
what
the
community
really
cares
is.
Is
a
community
treasury
being
well
spent,
and
so
they
look
into
this.
But
of
course
sometimes
they
see
they
say:
I,
don't
really
care
about
the
outcome
of
this
proposal.
So
the
question
is
like:
how
do
we?
How
do
we
collectively
care
about
the
outcome
for
the
betterment
of
the
protocol
itself?
R
T
The
mask
it's
hard
for
me
to
signal
that
I
want
to
talk.
One
thing
that
I
find
really
interesting
is
because
tendermint
validator
sets
are
relatively
small.
You
know
100
150.
How
do
we
deal
with
the
fact
that,
at
the
end
of
the
day
the
validators
get
to
decide?
What
happens
you
know
if
a
bunch
of
users
say
hey,
we
want
to
do
this.
One
thing
the
validators
can
always
just
decide
to
Fork
the
chain
themselves.
How
do
we
think
that,
like
that
plays
into
a
role
with
a
model
like
you're
you're
thinking
of
Frederico.
S
S
R
To
that
specific
point,
also,
optimism
has
a
two
camera
model
where
you
have
so
you
have
the
everyone
from
the
community.
You
have
the
values
that
are
representing
these.
The
interests
of
the
communities,
and
then
you
have
another
sets
of
an
assembly
or
a
comedy
based
that
are
specifically
elected
for
different
topics
on
what's
interesting
is
that
both
of
them
can
be
overwritten
by
the
valuers
so
like
by
the
members
of
the
community.
R
You
have
two
cameras
where,
if
there's
like
a
misbehavior
or
their
representative
is
not
voting
on
on
the
different
proposals,
you
can
just
kick
them
out,
or
you
can
change
them
like
or
or
select
just
replace
all
the
the
members
of
the
assembly
every
two
weeks
or
every
month
Etc.
If
there
is
like
a
major
issue
with
the
governance
mechanism
going
on
so
there's
like
more
flexible
models.
Quadratic
building
is
one
liquid.
Democracy
is
another
one
so
that
we
can
effectively
scale
governance
in
that
way.
Q
S
No
I,
don't
think
so.
I
think
that's
like,
as
you
are,
you
know
talking
older
your
stakeholder
of
the
chain
and
you
should,
if
you
want
to
participate
in
governance,
but
if
you
don't
have
maybe
the
expertise
to
decide
on
what
you
should
vote
on
one
specific
governance
than
delegating
your
power
to
someone
else
can
be
a
good
solution.
S
Q
On
the
stakeholders
and
people
having
incentives,
one
good
example
of
this,
in
my
opinion,
is
maker.
Dao,
you
have
the
maker
holders
and
the
people
that
hold
die
even
if
I
hurt
a
billion
die,
I
have
less
say
than
one
maker
holder.
How
do
you
view
this
in
the
system?
Validators
can
vote
people
with
tokens
Can
delegate,
but
the
users
of
the
chain
might
not
have
a
say.
I
want
to
throw
this
first
u-dev
bear
since
I.
Think
you
had
bear
chain
are
doing
some
interesting
work
here.
T
Yeah
I
think
the
biggest
the
biggest
thing
is
like
kind
of
touching
back.
We
were
saying
about
incentivizing
governance
as
well.
Is
you
don't
want
to
incentivize
governance
by
just
like
giving
people
tokens
or
giving
them
through,
like
monetary?
You
want
to
give
incentivized
governance
by
like
creating
utility,
so
like
one
of
the
things
that
we're
doing
on
bear
chain
is
really
trying
to
align
governance
with
the
concept
of
liquidity.
We
think
that
you
know
giving
people
tokens
is
not
necessarily
great,
but
what?
If
there
was
a
way
to
make
it?
T
You
know
the
more
liquidity
in
any
token,
on
a
chain,
especially
a
chain
like
ours
that
has
a
stable
coin
built
in,
and
we
have
like
this
routing
system
that
allows
us
to
have
that
Hub
and
spoke
model.
Having
liquidity
in
any
governance.
Token
is
something
that's
net
positive
for
the
whole
chain
and
the
whole
ecosystem.
S
Yeah,
so
if
we
take
the
example
of
maker
I
think
that
dye
is
like
a
project
from
mecca.
For
example,
I
have
a
Twitter
account,
I
use
Twitter,
all
the
time.
I,
don't
have
you
know
any
power
on
whether
we
should
return
shooter
as
eggs
or
not.
You
know
similar
to
what
like
I'm
a
user
of
uni
swap
I,
don't
necessarily
hold
any
uni
token,
but
I
use
the
project.
S
You
know
and
I
think
that
there
is
like
this
kind
of
Distinction
and
the
incentivation
here
is
like,
as
you
know,
you
get
like
what
the
power
on
one
specific
protocol,
your
your
goal
is
to
incentivize
any
people,
any
users
to
use
your
project
without
necessarily
like
give
this
give
power
to
those
users.
You
know
so
yeah.
This
is
my
personal
take
on
on
this.
So.
R
R
But
then
you
don't
use
those
tokens
for
governance,
and
so,
if
you're,
all
paying
on
osmosis
or
you're
putting
your
tokens
off
on
stride
for
liquid
staking
you
effectively
never
use
those
tokens
again
for
governance
purpose,
even
though
you're
invested
into
the
ecosystem,
and
so
that's
when
I
think
like
models
like
interchange,
accounts
or
or
us.
Try
like
but
project
but
for
governance,
could
be
really
interesting
in
order
to
incentivize
participation.
Q
T
That's
an
interesting
one,
I
think
I
think
there's
pros
and
cons
to
both
models.
I
think
in
terms
of
the
actual
voting.
The
Privacy
aspect
is,
it
is
really
interesting.
I
think
on
one
hand
giving
users
the
ability
to
you
know
not
display
their
vote
is
is
beneficial,
but
at
the
same
time,
transparency
when
it
comes
to
the
actual
decisions
that
are
being
made
is
really
important
as
well.
I.
T
S
I
think
that
privacy
can
be
great.
You
know
when,
when
there
is
like
the
voting
period,
so
because
you
know
when
there's
like
the
voting
period
and
you
see
like
the
vote
or
other
people,
you
can
be
influenced
by
what
other
people
are
are
voting
on
and
having
this
maybe
privacy.
During
that
specific
watching
period
can
be
great
and
then
having
transparency
period
is
finished
to
see
what
are
the
different
type
of
words,
who's
voting
on
what
and
so
on,
yeah.
R
Privacy
today
is
not
the
biggest
problem
in
governance,
so
if
we
take
a
step
back
when
we
want
privacy
for
boating
is
because
we
want
to
obstruct
our
result,
our
option
that
we
selected
from
corporations
or
from
governments
there's
maybe
censorship,
given
that
today's
governance
is
used
mostly
for
on-chain
Pro
in
protocol,
unless
there's
a
clear
reason
to
do
that,
I,
don't
think.
That's
the
best
problem
to
focus
our
attention
when
it
comes
to
governance,.
Q
That
makes
sense.
You
also
mentioned
that
a
lot
of
users
will
need
to
have
a
vote
on
like
spending
of
the
company
treasury
or
the
project
treasury
Etc.
And
how
do
you
view
that,
in
relation
to
privacy,
like
dial
members
voting
or
salaries
of
people
who
are
hired
by
the
Dao
or
governance,
whatever
that's
always
sensitive?
And
it
sort
of
never
ends
extremely
well
right?
Yeah.
R
So
one
of
the
interesting
models
that
we're
shipping
soon
as
part
of
the
atmos,
supernov
and
evm
extensions
is
the
fact
that
we
have
now
a
framework
for
smart
contracts
to
utilize
on
chain
governance.
So
you
that
you
can
create
Dows.
For
example,
values
can
select
different,
concrete,
a
dial
so
that
their
Community
their
value,
their
their
delegators,
can
vote
and
have
like
a
mini
boat
that
they
can
just
cast
to
the
network.
And
so
then
you
can
create
these
different
different
dial
Frameworks.
S
Yeah
I
mean
that's
a
good
point,
because
you
know
as
a
validator
we
and
also
imperator
is
a
quiet
community
focused.
So
we
have
like
different
delegators
that
are
just
you
know,
asking
us
questions
about.
Okay.
What
do
you
think
about
that
specific
proposal
and
so
on
and
having
this
kind
of?
Maybe
you
know
that
was
or
something
like
that
in
which
you
can
clearly
discuss
with
your
delegate,
also
about
what
specific
decision
and
then
make
a
decision
on
on
the
proposal
can
be
great.
S
Q
Okay,
you
just
mentioned
Kepler
I.
Think
right
now,
a
lot
of
governance
discussion
happens
on
like
Commonwealth
and
Discord,
and
then,
after
that,
it's
voted
through
snapshots
or
to
a
world
Etc.
What
tools
do
we
need
to
skill,
Unchained
governance?
Further,
so
I
mean
I'm,
a
venture
investor.
What
do
I
need
to
fund
to
help
unchain
governance
move
forward.
S
So
yeah
so
right
now
it's
a
pain
because
the
traditional
way
is
to
put,
for
example,
a
draft
on
like
common
wires
or,
let's
say
the
cosmos
platform,
and
something
like
that,
and
we
have
some
discussion
happening
there.
But
most
of
this
the
discussion
is
happening
Elsewhere
on
Twitter
on
Discord
on
some
telegram
private
chat.
S
Because
if
you
know
someone
is
asking
a
question
on
Discord
and
someone
else
is
asking
the
same
question
on
Telegram
and
someone
else
is
asking
us
the
same
question
like
Commonwealth:
it's
it's,
it's
absolutely
not
efficient,
so
I
would
say:
I
don't
have
like
the
right
ID,
but
I.
Wouldn't
we
will
need
some
some
like
kind
of
tool.
That
is
centralizing
all
the
information
on
one
specific
proposal
or
one
specific
coverage
proposal,
and
then
yeah
people
can
just
follow
everything.
T
R
R
How
can
we
open
governance
to
not
only
Cosmos
but
to
other
clients
that
are
integrating
with
the
specific
protocols
and,
as
you
said,
it's
really
not
scalable
at
this
point,
given
that
you
have
every
chain
creating
its
own
different
set
of
proposals
so
having
a
single
integration,
as
you
said,
Dev,
the
standardization
is
very
important
to
be
able
to
have
like
a
maximum
number
of
locations
to
where
to
discuss
this.
But
opening
the
clients
to
ethereum
to
Cosmos
to
even
other
ecosystem
is
going
to
be
very
important
to
increase
the
participation.
Q
R
I'm
gonna
give
my
personal
opinion
not
representing
Atmos,
but
I
think
it's
important
for
Founders
to
participate,
but
not
to
influence
the
vote
output.
So
from
my
particular
side,
I
participate
in
governance
as
long
as
that's
the
case,
I'm
not
influencing
influencing
the
result
of
the
bone
and
also
what
is
important
to
notice
is
there's.
R
T
Yeah
I
would
I
would
second
that
you
know
for
speaking
speaking
personally
I
think
since
typically
Founders
have
a
decent,
large
share
of
tokens,
it
doesn't
really
make
sense,
I
think,
no
matter,
no
matter
what
happens,
a
Founder
always
will
influence
it.
Despite
them,
you
know
wanting
to
or
not
you
know
things
that
are.
T
You
know
said
on
those
channels
in
telegrams
and
twitters
right,
even
if
they're
not
directly
addressing
the
question
from
learning
about
a
way,
an
individual
thinks
and
just
learning
whose
are
as
a
person
you
can
kind
of
infer
how
they
might
vote
on
on
one
thing
or
another,
so
you
know
personally
I
think
it's
good
to
to
fully
fully
abstain
from
the
process.
Because
of
that-
and
you
know
typically-
and
if
you
look
historically
the
way
that
Founders
vote
on
proposals
is
typically
the
way
they
swing
and
I
think
they're
a
lot.
T
A
large
reason
of
that
is
is
when
people
are
less
educated.
When
people
look
up
to
a
Founder,
you
know
they
love
the
protocol
Etc.
They
don't
want
to
go
against
the
grain,
so
I
think
being
completely
out
of
the
governance
process
when
it
comes
to
an
individual
as
a
Founder
is
extremely
important
to
prevent
bias.
R
Q
R
I
think
it's
important
for
investors
to
participate,
as
they
have
vested
interests
in
the
protocol,
specifically
for
key
decisions.
I,
don't
see
them
participating
necessarily
on
upgrading
their
protocol
or
anything
that
is
more
on
the
technical
side,
because
of
course,
they
need
to
delegate
that
trust
to
the
team,
but
and
to
the
rest
of
the
community,
but
for
some
key
decisions,
I've
seen
them
participating.
T
Holder,
it's
important
that
they're
they're
involved
kind
of
speaking
on
kind
of
technical
stuff
as
well.
You
know
we
have
investors
who
are
quite
technical,
so
it's
you
know
they
can.
They
can
weigh
on
things
when
it
comes
to
you
know,
architecture,
decisions,
tokenomics
et
cetera,
so
I
think
I.
Think,
like
any
token
holder,
it's
it's
good
for
them
to
be
involved
and
can
be
net
net
positive,
especially
since
typically
they
are
large
holders.
Q
And
again,
maybe
two
areas
from
the
data
point
of
view:
I
have
you
read
and
provider
ever
sort
of
abstained
from
our
votes?
That
was
very
controversial
because
she
didn't
want
to
lose
delegation.
Or
are
you
sometimes
taking
a
position
that
you
know
it
might
cost
you
something?
How
do
you
approach
that?
No.
S
So
getting
the
abstain
vote.
What
we
usually
do
is
that
we
make
a
decision
internally
and
if
we
are
don't,
we
don't
agree
internally
and
we
have
let's
say
half
of
the
team,
that
is
on
the
North
side
and
half
of
13.
That
is
on
the
yes
side.
Then
we
just
abstain,
and
we
then
we
asked
the
hour
that
they
get
us
to
just
override
our
vote
to
like
make
their
own
decision.
R
Dan
was
not
on
chain
in
any
way
and
was
able
to
become
a
standard
because
of
adoption
of
the
different
chains.
So
standardization
of
chain
is
very
important,
but
in
five
years
I
I
see
Cosmos
implementing
governance
as
a
framework
as
a
base
layer
framework,
on
top
of
which
you
can
create
your
own
governance
models
that
are
specific
and
cater
to
your
community
or
to
your
needs.
T
Yeah
I
think
on-chain
governance
makes
a
lot
of
sense
for
application
layer
things
for
base
layer
things
it's
really
difficult
because
it
often
requires
code
changes
to
the
you
know
core
software,
so
I
think
I
think
in
the
case
of
ethereum.
Since
it
is,
you
know,
99.9
percent
base
layer.
You
know,
if
not
100,
base
layer,
it's
very
difficult
to
do.
On-Chain
governance,
you
know
a
executing
a
transaction,
can't
change
the
way
that
you
know
fees
are
collected
or
something
like
that.
S
No
I
I
mean
so
I
think
the
online
governance
is
is
quite
important
when
you
want
to
get
the
opinion
of
your
own
stakeholders,
you
know,
but
on
Ancient
governance
is
not
feasible
for
everything.
For
example,
let's
say
I
would
say
my
chain
is
getting
hard
or
something
like
that.
You
cannot
just
create.
You
know
a
proposal.
Just
it
takes
time
to
create
a
proposal
about
it
and
so
on.
It's
it
doesn't
make
any
sense
and
that
for
for
that
specific
cases,
you
know
you
have
to
do
its
option.
S
B
U
Good,
hey
everyone,
sorry
for
the
technical
difficulties,
I'm
guy
I'm,
the
founder
of
secret.
If
you
don't
know
me,
and
if
you
don't
know,
secret
secret
is
building
confidential
smart
contracts
on
Cosmos
we're
actually
one
of
the
first
cousin
wasn't
chains
after
Tara.
If
that's
an
important
bit
sorry
cool,
so
I've
been
10
years
into
space
and
I.
U
We
need,
to,
you
know,
fix
money
laundering.
There
are
people
who
are
saying
look
for
individuals,
you
want
to
protect
our
own
privacy,
and
all
of
that
is
important,
but
it
also
doesn't
matter
it
doesn't
matter,
because
when
we
think
about
privacy
in
such
a
narrow
view,
we
miss
out
of
all
of
the
applications
that
privacy
can
unlock
and
actually
I've
started
to
more
and
more
use.
U
This
term
encryption,
which
is
actually
it's
not
one
to
one
with
privacy
like
encryption,
enables
privacy,
but
at
the
same
time
people
don't
have
that
kind
of
you
know
background
or
history
with
encryption
as
they
do
with
privacy,
but
if
I
say
privacy
or
encryption
I
mean
the
same
thing.
Another
way
to
illustrate
this
is
just
to
show
a
list
of
use
cases
where
it
doesn't
matter.
If
you
care
about
your
data
or
not,
but
it
doesn't
matter
that
you
care
about
privacy,
because
otherwise
those
use
cases
are
not
possible.
U
So,
for
example,
Mev
protection.
Everyone
talks
about
Mev,
there's
like
10
new
startups
about
Mev
pretty
much
every
day
now
Mev
is
a
privacy
problem.
The
problem
is
that
when
transactions
enter
the
main
pool
in
plain
text
and
they're
not
encrypted,
then
everyone
can
see
your
transaction
and
reorder
it
to
gain
an
edge
on
you,
you're
losing
value,
and
even
if
you
don't
care
about
your
data,
you're
losing
value,
someone
else
is
taking
that
value
because
your
transactions
are
not
encrypted
and
at
secret,
we're
really
trying
to
focus
more
and
more.
U
U
One
of
them
is
Unstoppable
wallets,
so
Unstoppable
wallets
before
we
can
explain
what
they
are.
Let's
explain
what
wallets
are,
which
I'm
sure
most
of
you
know
wallets
are
private,
Keys,
private,
Keys,
they're,
just
a
very
long
string
of
characters
or
a
very
long
number
that
you
have
to
protect
it
at
all
costs.
Again
it
has
private
in
the
name.
You
need
to
keep
it
private,
so
you
care
about
privacy,
but
you
don't
care
about
the
privacy
of
your
private
key,
because
you
care
about
your
data.
U
U
Now,
there's
obviously
a
problem
with
private
keys,
because
they
are
a
single
point
of
value.
You
lose
your
key.
You
lose
access
to
your
funds
or
someone
steals
it.
So
that's
why
people
invented
multi-six,
which
everyone
knows
what
they
are.
Basically
don't
have
one
key,
but
have
multiple
keys
and
multiple
people
needed
to
actually
spend
those
funds
and
there's
another
way
to
implement
multi-sig.
That's
basically
MPC
wallets.
If
you
don't
know
what
NPC
is
it
doesn't
matter,
just
think
of
them
as
multi-sig.
They
are
the
same
thing.
U
There
are
some
some
technical
differences
but
they're,
not
the
important
part.
Now
most
companies
today
that
deploy
NPC
wallets,
and
these
are
big
companies
like
fire,
blogs
or
or
coinbase
now
and
many
others.
What
they're
essentially
doing
is
that
they
are
your
co-signer.
So
if
you
sign
a
transaction,
five
blocks
or
coinbase
would
also
sign
with
their
key,
and
only
then
can
you
spend
your
funds
now.
This
is
already
much
better
because
if
someone
breaks
like
takes
your
key
like
or
you
or
well,
if
you
lose
it,
it's
a
problem.
U
U
The
problem
with
account
obstruction
is
that
you
can
only
use
it
on
the
same
chain
that
you
deployed,
but
on
secret,
and
that's
really.
The
idea
of
Unstoppable
wallets
is
that
you
can
have
an
NPC
wallet
where
you
have
one
key,
or
maybe
several
users
have
like
one
key
each
then
the
chain
has
another
key,
and
now
you
can
program
that
smart
contract
to
basically
do
whatever
you
want.
You
want
to
program
it
to
sign
ethereum
transactions.
That's
fine!
U
U
Just
one
more
note
about
this.
This
was
actually
a
very,
very
hard
problem
to
solve.
I'm
not
going
to
go
into
the
details.
If
you're
very
technical
I
suggest
you
go
and
read
the
paper,
there's
some
really
cool
use
cases
there.
It
involves
bunch
of
cryptography
and
the
goal
was
actually.
How
do
we
do
NPC
Wallets
on
chain
that
are
very,
very
fast,
and
only
you
take
like
one
transaction.
U
You
know
Casino
gaming
poker
wherever
you
need
the
unpredictability,
and
the
point
is
that
you
could
have
used
these
like
nfts
on
secret
have
been
using
these
for
like
two
years
but
as
of
two
months
ago.
Now
you
can
do
this
on
all
IBC,
so
it
doesn't
matter
like
you're
operating
on
stargaze.
You
can
use
this
for
your
mint,
your
operating
elsewhere.
You
can
use
secret
vla
for
your
applications
and
I
think
this
doesn't
work
skrilla
correctly.
U
It
doesn't
work
right
now
right
all
right,
so
we
were
supposed
to
have
a
demo
of
the
roulette
I,
actually
don't
like
gambling,
but
it's
a
fun
application
to
try
out.
It
uses
secret
vrf
to
basically
show
you
how
that's
used
in
real
life.
We
were
supposed
to
have
a
demo,
it's
not
working
now,
but
if
you
go
to
the
website,
then
you
can
play
with
it.
It's
a
lot
of
fun.
We
usually
do
it
at
our
events.
U
But
you
know
these
are
two
examples
of
privacy
as
a
service,
but
what
does
the
future
hold
right
like
what
okay?
So
what
more
can
we
do
with
these?
And
what
more
can
we
do
with
these?
Not
just
on
secret
but
beyond
so
another
way
to
think
about
it
is
that
secret
is
essentially
bringing
encryption
to
the
interchange.
U
Let's
face
it-
and
this
is
maybe
not
so
popular,
but
Cosmos
is
probably
the
best
tag
that
we
have
it's
where
all
of
the
cool
Builders
are
coming.
It's
where
all
the
cool
ideas
are
coming,
it's
much
more
sophisticated
because
generally
the
the
anti-barrier
is
higher.
So
you
also
get
very,
very
capable
developers
and
good
ideas
are
coming
in
and
eventually
those
ideas
propagate
back
to
the
ethereum
ecosystem.
U
But
Cosmos
itself
needs
users.
It
doesn't
have
enough
users.
Even
secret
is
like
a
top
five
chain
in
terms
of
activity
in
Cosmos
is
again
a
blip
on
the
radar
like
we
gotta
work
together
as
an
ecosystem
to
bring
the
users
or
meet
the
users
where
they
are
looking
at
the
East
ecosystem.
The
ethereum
ecosystem
needs
privacy,
vitalik
is
talking
about
it.
People
are
talking
about
it.
U
So
we
actually
figured
that
we've
already
been
working
on
phase
zero
of
these-
let's
say
integration
and
expansion
for
quite
a
few
months,
and
that
didn't
came
from
us
that
came
from
the
market
demand.
I'd,
say:
we've
had
projects
that
came
to
us
and
said
they
really
need
privacy
for
certain
aspects,
but
they're
deployed
on
ethereum
they're
not
deployed
on
secret
or
even
in
Cosmos.
So,
for
example,
Beach
up
they're
doing
a
very
cool
one
of
the
most
sophisticated
private
auction
mechanisms,
but
they
need
the
bids
to
be
private.
U
However,
nft
liquidity
and
liquidity
in
general
does
not
live
in
Cosmos.
It
lives
on
ethereum,
so
they
are
deployed
on
ethereum,
but
they
actually
worked
with
our
team
for
many
months
to
do
the
bridging
correctly
so
that
they
can
route
all
the
secure
actions
through
secret
while
since
being
deployed
on
ethereum,
and
we
realized
like
that
infrastructure
can
actually
be.
We
can
replicate
that
to
other
use
cases.
U
Sorry,
the
another
example
is
what
I
told
you
about
so
I
told
you
about
Unstoppable,
wallets
I
told
you.
This
is
basically
the
basis
of
of
cross-chain
account
obstruction.
Well,
we
actually
already
have
like
at
least
two
teams:
that's
been
more
operating
somewhat
himself
on
these,
like
OB
and
Prime
Vault,
and
actually
there's
a
few
others
that
I
can
share
right
now
and
there's
already
quite
a
few
companies
building
on
ethereum
that
are
coming
to
us
and
again,
I
can't
say
their
names
in,
but
are
actually
already
building
towards
that
now.
U
Looking
ahead,
what
we're
looking
for
really
at
Phase,
One
and
Beyond,
is
okay.
How
can
we
systemize
that
and
that's
kind
of
like
what
we're
doing
today,
we're
starting
by
adding
XLR
General
message
present
bridge
in
our
next
upgrade?
This
is
going
to
still
happen
this
year
and
the
and
that,
and
that
way
you
can
basically
see
system
resize
this
idea
of
routing
from
ethereum
to
secret,
to
do
like,
like
a
private
Oracle.
U
U
At
the
end
of
the
day,
Cosmos
like
people
are
going
to
need
to
people
are
going
to
use
Cosmos,
but
they're,
not
necessarily
going
to
feel
that
they're
using
Cosmos,
and
that
is
the
right
approach
to
take,
and
that
is
the
right
mindset
that
we
want
to
go
into.
The
next
phase
is
beyond
phase
one,
so
we
have
a
booth
up
there,
where
we
can
talk
more
and
we
can
share
a
lot
of
stuff
feel
free
to
follow
secret
or
myself
and
talk
to
us
we're
very
excited
about
the
thing.
U
B
B
A
R
V
V
Yeah
well
yeah,
good
afternoon,
everyone.
My
name
is
Ismail
I'm,
the
founder
of
LaGrange
labs.
So
today
we're
going
to
talk
about
a
new
interoperability,
primitive,
zero
knowledge,
data,
parallel
computation.
So
before
you
roll
your
eyes
and
expect
another
talk
about
how
ZK
interop
works,
let
me
stop
for
a
moment
and
say:
the
space
of
interoperability
is
far
larger
than
we
give
it
credit
for
in
particular,
we
typically
think
about
zero
knowledge
in
the
context
of
how
do
we
make
interoperability
more
secure?
V
In
reality,
there
are
a
lot
more
uses
of
zero
knowledge
and
interoperability.
Besides
that
simple
question
in
particular,
there
is
the
question
of:
how
do
we
make
interoperability
more
expressive?
How
do
we
take
an
assertion
of
state
that
is
moved
between
chains
and
do
more
with
it?
So,
let's
start
with
a
hopefully
not
controversial
statement.
State
machines
require
state.
V
So,
let's
take
a
step
back.
What
is
State,
you
can
think
of
the
state
of
a
blockchain
as
the
store
of
all
contract
values,
all
variables,
everything
encoded
at
a
point
in
time,
in
a
given
block
header,
given
that
these
are
blockchains,
the
state
of
one
block
is
inextricably
linked
to
the
state
of
the
previous
block.
So
from
a
given
block,
you
can
really
figure
out
cryptographically
what
any
contract
value
was
at
any
point
in
time
on
any
any
blockchain
from
a
single
block
header
of
that
chain.
V
V
If
you
want
to
roll
up,
that's
the
Roll-Ups
execution
environment
and,
if
you're
on
a
cosmos
chain
that
is
whatever
the
execution
environment
of
that
Cosmos
train
Is
All
Storage,
is
in
the
same
tree
if
you're
in
ethereum,
that's
the
MPT
tree,
if
you're
in
Cosmos,
it's
the
ivl
tree,
but
everything
is
in
the
same
data
structure
in
the
same
block.
Header
access
is
therefore
simple:
you're,
basically
having
all
your
data
co-located
in
the
same
place.
V
Now
what
about
the
cross
train
context?
Where
is
data
intuitively?
If
you
have
a
separate
execution
environment
and
a
separate
block
header
and
a
separate
block
time,
data
is
not
co-located.
It
is
fragmented
across
a
series
of
different
locations,
a
series
of
different
execution
environments
and
the
only
way
to
access
that
is
with
cross-chain
protocols,
fundamentally
asynchronous
messaging
and
bridging.
V
Now,
what
about
IBC
IBC
is
a
tremendously
effective
standard
for
trust,
minimized,
messaging
and
state
queries
in
its
current
form.
It
supports
messaging
and
Coring
of
different
contract
States
across
compatible
chains.
But
what
about
historical
data?
What
about
compute
or
building
applications
that
span
longitudinally,
for
example,
if
I
am
on
osmosis
or
sorry?
If
I'm,
if
I'm
playing
a
new
chain
and
I,
want
to
compute
the
volatility
of
an
asset
pair
in
osmosis,
it's
a
lend,
it's
a
it's
an
options,
protocol
and
so
I
want
to
do
Black
Shoals,
so
I
need
volatility.
V
V
So
in
reality
this
is
not
a
very
effective
Paradigm,
because
you
require
a
near
total
synchronization
of
Two
Chains
to
access
that
longitudinal
data
and,
what's
more
likely-
and
this
is
what
developers
do
today-
is
they
rely
on
an
off-chain
oracle.
So
you
have
a
chain
to
chain
problem
with
interoperability
where
functionally
you
can
solve
that
with
better
tooling.
On
top
of
the
existing
infrastructure,
the
issue
is
not
security,
the
issues
expressivity.
How
would
this
secure
connection
I
have
between
my
app
chain
and
osmosis?
V
How
can
I
derive
the
relevant
data
without
requiring
an
off-chain
dependency,
and
this
is
the
environment
that
we
exist
in
today?
When
developing
applications,
you
have
what
is
fundamentally,
a
data
Lake
of
on-chain
state
state
is
fragmented
across
thousands
of
potentially
modular
Roll-Ups
application,
specific
chains
and
differential
execution
environments
blocks
version.
Data
structures
can
be
thought
of
as
a
table
in
that
database
or
single
snapshot
of
that
database,
and
the
majority
of
that
data
is
not
available
to
applications
at
the
point
of
execution.
You
can't
Quarry
it.
You
can't
search
it.
V
You
can't
compute
across
it
you're
constrained
by
what
you
can
do
and
so
to
summarize,
if
I
want
to
know
very
specific
properties
of
a
chain
at
a
certain
point
in
time,
I
can
do
that.
That's
what
these
State
machines
are
great
at,
so
who
owns
nftx
and
contract
y
easy?
What
is
the
price
of
Juno
to
usdt
on
osmosis
at
block
N
Easy,
but
when
I
want
to
now
do
things
that
are
more
expressive?
What
is
the
price
of
Juno
to
UST
over
the
last
n
blocks
when
factoring
it
outliers?
V
What
is
the
volatility
of
Juno
to
UST
in
on
osmosis,
summed
up
with
the
volatility
of
Juno's
UST
on
Juno
swap
over
the
past
n
blocks?
This
is
where
existing
technology
is
unable
to
address
these
questions,
and
so
this
is
where
we
get
to
what
our
team
at
LaGrange
Labs
builds.
So
what
we
build
is
a
proprietary
proof,
construction
called
ZK
mapreduce,
which
allows
us
to
compute
large-scale
batch
proofs
of
contract,
State
concurrently
with
Dynamic
data
parallel
computation.
V
By
doing
all
of
this
in
zero
knowledge
and
then
verifying
that
on
chain
with
respect
to
a
secure
block
header
source
and
what
is
a
secure
block,
header,
Source,
well,
a
secure
block
header
Source
can
be
derived
from
IVC.
It
can
be
derived
from
a
messaging
protocol
can
be
derived
from
a
bridging
protocol
can
be
derived
from
wherever
you
trust
in
terms
of
your
application,
and
now
you
can
have
this
type
of
dynamic
and
expressive
computation
that
inherits
directly
from
that
predefined
point
of
trust.
V
V
So
these
proofs,
as
I
mentioned,
are
transport
layer
agnostic.
So
if
you
want
to
use
IBC
or
a
third-party
protocol,
maybe
an
axle
or
a
hyperlane,
a
polyhedra
layer,
zero
we're
on
opinion
on
that.
If
you
trust
it
with
your
application
as
a
developer,
that's
great.
These
proofs
can
be
verified
with
respect
to
that
predefined
point
of
security,
which
means
you
can
take
that
block
header.
You
can
take
that
assertion
of
state
and
you
can
now
do
more
with
it.
V
You
can,
for
example,
determine
the
users
of
a
dow
who
have
voted
over
a
predefined
period
of
time
verifiably,
so
you
can
issue
rewards
to
them
or
you
can
have
a
derivatives
protocol
and
you
can
compute
across
that
protocol
with.
So
you
can.
You
can
compute
across
the
options,
so
you
can
have
an
options
protocol
and
you
can
compute
across
the
Decks
that
you
want
to
use
to
derive
volatility
verifiably
and
you
don't
have
to
now
incur
an
additional
application,
Level
dependency
on
an
off-chain
data
feed.
You
can
basically
use
the
existing
application
logic.
V
You
have
today
the
things
that
are
inbuilt
with
the
cosmos
SDK
or
with
IBC,
and
you
can
now
do
more
with
that
underlying
connection
underlying
data.
So
how
is
this
possible?
And-
and
why
is
this
possible-
and
this
comes
down
to
an
innovation
and
applied
photography-
that
our
team
has
been
able
to
unlock
and
what
this
is
is
updatable,
zero
knowledge
proofs,
we've
typically
discussed
zero
knowledge
proofs
in
the
context
of
these
these
difficult
to
compute
highly
resource
intensive
proofs
of
the
execution
of
some
code
over
some
predefined
data
set.
V
But
in
reality,
once
you
generate
a
proof,
there
are
components
of
it
that
you
can
reuse
between
subsequent
executions
of
that
underlying
computation,
and
so
that
means
you
can
take
computation
that
was
used
to
derive
a
proof
on
an
overlapping
or
non-overlapping
data
set
and
compose
that
back
together
to
create
something
new
and
what
this
means
is
on
the
marginal
run.
We
can
substantially
reduce
the
time
it
takes
to
generate
a
new
proof.
V
So
if
you
want
to
do
volatility
over
block
n
to
n
plus
K
and
then
now
you
want
to
do
it
from
n
plus
1
to
n,
plus
K
plus
one
you
can
do
so
without
incurring
an
entire
rerun
of
the
overall
proof
generation.
So
you
can
have
very
very
fast
updates
of
your
proofs
in
computational,
your
proofs
without
requiring
incredible
amounts
of
duplicate
computation,
and
so
what
this
does.
V
It
lets
you
minimize
proving
time
and
scale
your
computation
through
proof
composition,
rather
than
through
and
using
incredible
amounts
of
computation
of
the
arbitrary
run,
and
so
this
allows
you
to
have
these
low
overhead
highly
expressive.
Data
connections
between
chains
that
make
your
application
far
better.
B
B
W
W
See
you:
when
can
everybody
hear
me
because
I
can
hear
you
all
right?
Everyone
stand
up
come
on
if
you're
a
programmer
stand
up.
Okay,
so
I
am
Dean.
Tribble
I
am
CEO
of
agoric
and
I'm.
Pretty
sure
you
can
all
hear
me
I'm
here
to
talk
about
a
lot
of
things,
including
general
purpose.
Applications
in
JavaScript
and
I
have
a
button.
Yes,
so
what
a
gorick
is
built
built
not
now
building,
but
what
a
gorg
has
built
is
a
platform
for
building
general
purpose.
W
Applications
on
blockchain
written
in
JavaScript,
the
native
programming
language
is
not
evm.
It's
not
wasm.
It's
not
anything.
It's
the
number
one
programming
language
on
the
planet
JavaScript,
so
you
can
use
your
existing
knowledge.
You
can
use
your
existing
tools,
but
more
important
than
that.
It
has
a
JavaScript
framework.
W
So
why
JavaScript
right?
Okay,
so
these
are
this-
is
from
Electric
capitals,
2023,
study
of
developer
ecosystem
and
you
can
see
we
have
polka
dot
that
claims
1900,
and
you
know
what
you
never
know.
These
numbers
are
approximate.
We've
got
the
cosmos
ecosystem
of
which
there's
more
than
1700
people
here,
no
there's
about
the
right
number,
but
these
are
daily
active
or
monthly
active
developers,
and
then
we've
got
a
few
smaller
developer
ecosystems
like
Solana
and
then
there's
ethereum
squatting
on
6,
000
monthly,
active
developers.
W
W
So
that's
where
we're
focused
and
that's
what
we
bring
to
the
table
because
we're
going
to
Bridge
and
reach
out
to
those
people
and
get
them
into
the
cosmo
verse,
the
interchain,
the
crypto,
verse,
okay,
and
what?
How
are
we
doing
for
that?
June
was
amazing.
We
have
been
working
for
five
years
on
this
stuff
and
it
was
sort
of
at
the
end
of
June
that
we
realized.
W
We
had
really
crossed
this
incredibly
important
threshold,
so
we
deployed
the
general
purpose
platform
with
independently
upgradable
JavaScript
smart
contracts,
all
communicating
with
each
other
asynchronously,
where
you
could
have
independent
governance
for
each
of
these
things
and
then
and
and
where
very
different
than
the
rest
of
blockchain
right
and
the
rest
of
blockchain.
Your
applications
are
built
in
you
know
five
second
chunks
or
simple
transactions
right.
If
you
think
about
an
amm,
it's
awesome
there's
a
lot
of
money
in
in
amms,
but
the
transaction
is
simple
right
money
come
in.
W
Do
some
math
money
go
out
right,
adjust
two
numbers.
You're
done!
That's
your
amm
yeah!
You
can
be
a
little
fancier
than
that,
but
but
it's
this
very
discreet
thing.
Most
software
in
the
world
has
long-running
transactions
that
are
not
five
seconds
at
a
time,
but
might
be
five
days
or
five
months
or
or
even
five
minutes
makes
a
complexity
in
cosmoasm
in
ethereum
and
all
of
these
infrastructures.
W
Where
you
do,
you
know
your
five
seconds
of
computation
and
then
you
pack
it
all
up
and
store
it
in
the
Merkle
tree
and
then
maybe
hopefully,
sometimes
someone
outside
the
chain
says.
Could
you
make
some
more
progress
on
that?
So
you
unpack
it
and
you
do
a
little
more
work
and
then
you
pack
it
back
up
and
it's
a
lot
of
complexity.
W
Of
long-lived
JavaScript
programs
built
into
these
built
into
these
into
States
and
Cosmos,
so
you
can
just
start
up
a
new
node
in
minutes
and
be
running,
so
those
are
sort
of
the
bottom
layer
things.
We
also
have
implemented
the
the
core
of
the
economy
right.
The
design
of
a
gorak
was
to
be
able
to
deploy
businesses
that
operate
with
a
stable
coin,
that
pay
gas
with
a
stable
coin
and
that
are
able
to
back
the
stable
coin
with
other
collateral.
W
The
core
of
being
able
to
build
financial
instruments
is
having
a
good
Oracle
that
can
tell
you
the
outside
prices
of
things,
to
Real
World
prices
of
things,
and
so
there
is
an
oracle
Network
for
a
gorak.
It
was
driven
by
simply
staking
who
I
know
are
floating
around
here
with
their
entry
point
t-shirts
and
it's
using
Chain,
Link
tech
underneath
and
we've
worked
with
chain
link
to
make
sure
that
they,
like
this
network
and
all
those
kinds
of
things.
W
So
it
is
a
future
extensible
network
where
you
can
build
smart
contracts
where
one
of
the
D5
Legos
is
the
price
of
stuff
which
is
really
really
powerful
and
then
finally,
we
launched
inter-protocol,
vaults
and
I'm
going
to
talk
about
these
in
reverse
order.
So
I
will
I
will
take
off
my
Agora
that
and
put
on
my
infra
protocol
hat
and
go
on
here.
W
Gotta.
Do
that
all
right
so
inter
protocol?
Most
of
you
have
heard
of
this,
it
is
an
over
collateralized,
stable
coin
for
the
cosmos
ecosystem.
Vaults
are
the
maker
Dow
style,
vaults,
right
vaults
are
bring
atom
over
IBC
in
the
future,
being
the
osmo
staked
at
him,
rap
BTC,
rap
teeth,
STS.
All
of
these
things,
anything
that
is
potentially
reachable
over
the
over
the
interchain,
bring
it
over
as
collateral
and
mint
IST
against
it
right
or
you
know.
W
Originally,
this
launched
the
first
version
of
this
launched
last
November,
so
ISD
has
been
out
there
on
osmosis
on
Crescent
on
shade,
swap
where
you
could
bring
usdc
usdt
or
die
bridged
over
gravity
or
axillar
to
buy
ISD.
So
it's
out
there
it's
being
integrated
in
applications
already,
but
what
launched
in
June
is
the
vaults
and
that's
really
the
big
core
of
it,
where
you
can,
where
it
unlocks
the
billions
of
dollars
in
asset
value
that
we've
all
built
across
numerous
chains.
W
So
now
you
can
leverage
it
to
get
IST
to
get
something
where
you
can
mint
IST
and
swap
on
osmosis
right.
You
can
have
a
sequence
where
you
can,
where
you
can
just
do
that.
All
and
people
are
starting
to
add
uis,
where
you'll
be
able
to
do
that
in
one
click.
Now,
I
I
will
say
mentioning
that
osmosis
just
I
think
passed
the
governance
vote
to
add
several
gas
tokens
to
osmosis,
of
which
IST
is
the
native
stable
coin,
the
native
stable
token
for
us
for
Cosmos.
W
W
You
can
just
do
it
so
awesome
stuff,
and
it's
all
you
know
it
was
all
originally
designed
to
be
IBC
native,
to
use
the
assets
that
that
we've
created
that
you've
created
that
other
chains
have
created
and
bring
them
all
together
into
an
economy
and
I
could
say
a
lot
more
about
that,
but
I'm
instead
going
to
use
that
to
talk
about
programmability.
So
now.
W
With
my
Agora
cat
back
on
so
the
key
to
vaults
right,
they
are
over
collateralized
vaults
right
where
you
have
where
I
bring
in
you
know,
two
thousand
dollars
of
atom
and
I
meant
a
thousand
dollars
of
IST,
and
if
Adam
were
to
fall
that
much
which,
of
course
it
will
not
do.
But
you
know
it's
volatile,
you
know
some
probability
right.
W
You
know
where,
where
Adam
thought,
where,
where,
if
the
asset
Falls
in
value
eat,
you
know
for
for
a
period
of
time
before
climbing
back
up
these
The
Vault
system
needs
to
sell
it
to
cover
the
amount
of
IST
that
was
minted
against
that
asset
right
and
so
that
you've
got
an
oracle
Network.
It
has
to
Signal
into
the
network.
You
have
to
have
Smart
contracts
to
respond
to
it.
W
Something
has
to
be
driving
this
and
then
based
on
this,
the
the
the
the
vaults
that
are
determined
have
to
get
sent
to
the
liquid
Liquidator
to
be
liquidated,
and
that
turns
out
in
many
systems
to
be
complicated,
fragile
and
Etc.
What
does
that
look
like
in
JavaScript?
What
would
a
JavaScript
programmer?
One
of
the
millions
of
programmers
out
there
that
programs
asynchronous
systems
every
day
in
JavaScript.
What
would
they
expect
and
what
can
you
do
on
a
Gore?
So
what's
going
on
here?
W
Right,
I,
don't
know
if
you
can
see
a
laser
all
right
price
Authority,
that's
what
we
call
the
Oracle
there's
reasons
for
it
and
they
don't
matter
it's
just
price
Authority.
This
is
saying
return
me
a
promise
when
the
when
the
price
of
the
collateral
I've
got
is
lower
than
the
liquidation,
trigger
value,
semantics,
I
wanted
and
I
get
this
promise
and
I
used
to
weight
it,
and
now
this
will
swap
out
to
disk
or
whatever
it
does.
W
But
it'll
hang
out
for
three
days
or
a
week
or
a
month,
and
it's
when
that
promise
resolves
it
resolves
because
that
Oracle
Network
that
we
mentioned
it
signaled
in
it
came
to
consensus.
It
computed
the
median
so
that
one
weird
price
doesn't
all
screw
it
up
right
and
it
will,
and
it
will
then
propagate
up
and
this
contract.
That
just
said
this
simple
line
with
this
D5
Lego,
which
is
a
price
suddenly
we'll
resolve
this
promise.
It
will
go
on
and
it
will
go.
W
Yeah
I'm
going
to
call
liquidate
I'm
going
to
hand
this
Vault
off
to
the
Liquidator
right.
So
that
too
is
oh
well
here
it's
returning
the
promise.
This
is
inside
an
async
function,
so
this
liquidate
function
is
async
and
behind
the
scenes
it's
doing
something
async,
you
don't
care.
You
know
you
know
how
to
compose
that
stuff
in
JavaScript.
This
is
what
people
expect
right.
W
So
what
does
that
liquidate?
Look
like
well.
This
was
an
element
of
the
liquidate.
This
is
somewhere
down
inside
the
code
and
these
are
all
code
samples,
slightly
cleaned
up
to
be
easier
for
you,
minus
comments,
minus
some
error
handling
just
to
make
it
easier,
but
the
fundamental
here
is
an
offer
in
in
a
gorick.
It's
been
the
offer,
since
we
talked
about
this
in
2019
I
think
it
was.
You
may
now
hear
a
lot
about
those
kinds
of
ideas
under
the
name,
intense
right.
W
So
what's
an
offer,
I've
got
to
give
I'm
the
I'm,
the
I'm,
the
Vault
I've
got
a
debt
I've
got
to
cover.
I
will
give
you
this
collateral,
but
only
if
you
give
me
back
that
much
IST
the
debt,
the
debt
that
I
need
to
cover-
and
if
you
can't
do
that,
you
don't
get
my
collateral
right
now,
I,
don't
much
care!
You
know
what
the
contract
is
here.
I
mean
I
do
because
I
would
like
to
to
accomplish
this
goal,
but
no
misbehavior
by
the
contract
no
upgrade
of
the
contract.
W
No
rugging
of
the
contract
can
take
my
collateral
unless
it
gives
me
thy
debt
unless
it
pays
me
the
ISD
that
I'm
asking
for
that
will
then
cover
the
debt
of
this
contract
right.
Okay.
So
that's
the
basic
offer
model
and
you'll
note
that,
of
course,
that's
async.
This
is
just
an
async
operation
from
one
contract
to
another
where
all
of
our
contracts
can
compose
and
the
fact
that
that
happens
to
be
on
this
Chain
versus
another
chain.
Well,
you'll
see
that
that
doesn't
matter
very
much
either.
Okay.
W
So
let's
take
another
example:
with
with
one
of
the
teams,
we
love
to
work
with
Akash
right.
They
sell
they
resell
compute
time
on
clouds
in
the
Akash
chain
and
they're
doing
interesting
and
advanced
features
with
with
gpus
for
AI
program.
You
know
programming
and
all
that,
so
they
now
have
an
audience
of
non-crypto
folk
right.
These
are
real
use
case
for
real
users
out
there
that
need
real
value
delivered
by
blockchain.
Okay
and
sorry,
you
can't
quite
read
that
that's
saying
so.
W
One
of
the
use
cases
for
end
users
I've
got
this
job
running
and
if
it
runs
out
of
money,
it
will
be
terminated.
I
don't
want
it
to
run
out
of
money.
I
might
have
20
of
these
jobs
and
I
would
like
to
have
a
pool
of
money.
I,
don't
know
which
one's
going
to
run
out
I
will
Dole
out
money
in
order
to
keep
them
all
going.
So
this
is
query
fetcha
fetch
the
account
balance
and
that's
inside
of
that
that's
triggered
by
an
on-chain,
timer
right
JavaScript.
W
You
expect
to
be
able
to
run
things
at
a
time.
We
can
do
that
on
our
blockchain.
If
that
number
is
below
threshold,
that's
running
inside
the
contract,
then
I
want
to
deposit
to
that.
Akash
account
this
is
all
running
on
JavaScript
this
or
it's
not
currently
running
in
production.
This
is
one
of
our
bounties
running
in
JavaScript
on
the
Agora
chain
able
to
and
where
the
payment
is
send
money
over
IBC.
That's
the
mechanism
we
had
available.
Ica
was
not
there.
What
does
that
look
like?
W
Well,
it
kind
of
looks
like
what
I
just
said
make
an
async
query
to
find
out
the
funds
that
are
inside
of
that
particular
Akash
deployment
and
just
await
that
answer,
and
that
might
go
to
an
oracle
that
might
be
an
icq
to
query
the
chain
over
IBC.
We
don't
care,
that's
just
a
function,
it's
abstracted,
it's
async,
it
all
works
and
then
once
I
get
that
back.
W
If
it's
less
than
my
minimum
threshold,
then
fund
the
Akash
account
and
that
might
be
do
a
local
transfer
into
a
purse,
because
the
owner
of
that
account
has
an
account
on
a
gork
and
they're
watching
that
or
it
might
be,
sending
send
a
IBC
transaction
to
do
a
funds
transfer
or
it
might
be
reach
over
to
osmosis
to
unbun
something
move
the
money.
You
know
there's
all
these
async
things
that
are
nicely
abstracted
away
and
fit
all
together
where
this
contract
running
on
the
Agora
chain
can
just
await
those
to
finish.
W
You
got
this
nice
compositional
thing
that
we
expect
out
of
other
languages.
I'll
do
a
couple
more
right.
I
mentioned
the
unbond
right.
If
I
wanted
to
on
an
oracle
price
unbond
on
osmosis
on
bond,
some
atoms
transfer
it
over
to
the
cosmos,
Hub
and
stake
it.
That
sounds
like
a
complicated
thing,
except
it's
going
to
be
a
lot
more
well,
I've
expanded
some
of
it.
You
know
this
is
just
await
sending
the
ICA
packet.
This
is
one
something
that
one
of
our
developers
on
the
platform,
not
a
good
work.
W
One
of
our
third
party
developers
built
right
is
this:
send
ICA
back
at
this
asynchronous
function,
bottoms
out
and
send
the
ICA
packet
and
get
a
promise
for
the
result.
So,
if
sending
that
ICA
packet
fails,
as
you
would
expect
in
JavaScript,
this
would
throw
an
exception
and
I
can
do
try
catch
or
whatever
it
is
right
and
then
here's
one
that's
expanded
right.
W
Send
ICA
package
unbond
send
an
ICA
packet
to
osmosis
to
transfer
this
to
to
The
Hub
and
then
finally,
here
it's
you
know,
create
a
delegate
message,
and
this
is
expanded.
This
is
sort
of
a
very
low
level
representation
to
just
send
that
ICA
message
right.
We
can
do
any
ICA
thing
that
any
chain
can
do.
You
can
roll
it
up
and
Abstract
it
in
JavaScript,
that's
pretty
cool
and
in
fact
they
were
you
know
so.
W
Okay,
so
and
those
are
components
some
of
these
were
built
by
bounty
hunters
on
a
gork
or
are
they
being
built
by
the
the
reference
partners
that
are
that
are
building
applications
to
ship
this
quarter.
So
Calypso
is
an
intertrained
trading,
interchange
trading,
app
terminal
where
it
can,
in
one
click,
take
assets
from
any
chain
move
the
you
know,
sell,
convert
them
to
usdc
or
whatever
move
them
over
a
bridge.
W
Have
them
land
on
a
third
chain
and
apply
some
application
right
so
take
some
stuff
on
Ave
turn
it
into
SEC
move
it
over
axlr,
buy
Adam
and
stake
it
right.
You
know
that
turns
out
to
be
one
of
the
key
use
cases
that
they
see
is
I've
got
assets
here.
I
want
to
do
that
thing
over
there
make
it
happen,
I,
don't
care
just
make
it
happen
in
one
click
all
orchestrated
by
smart
contracts
on
agorak.
Now
these
guys
are
also
the
ones
that
are
building
the
metamask
cosmos
snap
right.
W
This
is
30
million
developers
or
sorry,
30
million
users
have
metamask.
We
would
like
to
have
use
cases
where,
in
some
cases,
it's
people
that
were
already
on
on
ethereum
that
we
now
want
to
invite
over
to
awesome
applications
in
the
cosmos
space.
It
would
be
an
obstacle
if,
in
order
to
do
that,
they
had
to
install
another
wallet,
even
if
it
was
a
better
wallet.
So
metamath
snaps
uses
the
agoric
JavaScript
the
heart
and
JavaScript
that
I've
talked
about
in
other
presentations.
W
W
Creed
is
a
nft
application
that
they'll
be
showing
off
at
Cosmo
verse
and
it's
built
on
reusable
components
in
the
in
an
nft
toolkit
that
started
with
components
we
built
some
that
they
built
and
they're
carrying
it
on
beyond
that,
and
then
crabble
I
think
there's
some
bite
pitch
folk
around
crabble
is
a
rental
application
for
nfts,
with
utility
of
which
multiple
people
building
on
the
system
are
creating
nfts
with
utility,
as
are
you
know,
stargaze
and
others,
and
then
so.
These
are
things
that
are
in
Q3.
W
We
are
working
with
these
Partners
to
ship.
These
applications
to
ship
applications
for
third
parties
for
the
general
purpose
platform
on
agoric
and
then
roll
out
our
developer
program.
So
this
is,
you
know,
our
goal
is
web.
2
JavaScript
developers
are
now
able
to
build
apps
for
web3,
so
we
will
be
targeting
those
web
2
developers
with
our
devrels
program,
this
ability
to
do
orchestration
on
the
inner
chain.
That's
for
you
right!
W
That's
what
that's,
what
you
guys
are
doing,
and
so
I'm
going
to
come
back
to
that
before
I
go
away
here,
which
is
what
orchestration
would
make
valuable
use
of
the
services
on
York
chain
or
on
the
assets.
Your
chain
creates
right.
We
mentioned
before
the
store
your
assets
in
an
exchange
until
you
need
them
on
your
chain.
Right
I
can
store
my
Akash
in
a
pool.
I
need
to
pay
for
a
for
for
a
a
service
job.
That's
running
out
of
money,
move
it
over
transfer
it
over
and
pay
for
the
job.
W
But
you
know:
Dow
driven
software
development
is
similar
right.
I
have
a
vote
of
my
Dow.
It
now
wants
to
publish
some
website.
It
can,
with
no
human
intervention,
start
up
a
job
launch.
The
website
hosted
in
hosted
by
Akash
I
love
the
real
world
use
case.
You
know
that
that
when
it's
when
it's
done,
it
was
Jack.
Zamplin
was
saying
so
in
summary,
what
you're
saying
is
I
can
just
await
a
cosh.setup
compute
service
and
then
deploy
some
stuff,
and
the
answer
is
yeah.
Someone
needs
to
build
that
component.
W
W
Well,
if
you
wanted
to
store
them
in
ipfs,
that's
awesome,
but
are
you
sure
they're
going
to
be
there
next
month,
not
unless
you
pay
for
it
and
that's
what
filecoin
is
for
with
the
axoler
integration
with
the
GMP
integration
which
which
one
of
our
one
of
the
third
party
developers
built?
Is
this
lovely
async,
GMP
integration,
where
you
can
you
know,
is:
am
I
sending
over
ICA
am
I
sending
locally
or
am
I
sending
you
over
GMP.
W
We
don't
care,
it's
all
async,
and
so
you
could
reach
over
GMP
to
filecoin
fund
a
storage
reserve
and
then
put
your
and
then
from
a
smart
contract
on
the
gorick.
Put
your
stuff
there
right.
Okay!
So
what
can
we
do
with
your
assets?
What
use
case?
Do
you
want
find
someone
with
a
red
hat
or
a
yellow
hat,
because
they're
the
IST
folk
and
and
tell
us
what
you
need?
W
M
N
A
A
B
B
X
Hello,
everyone
thank
you
for
being
here
today.
My
name
is
Roya.
I
am
co-founder
of
quicksilver
interchange,
liquids
taking
protocol
for
Cosmos
and
I
am
also
co-founder
of
Ingenuity,
which
is
the
development
company
and
building
and
maintaining
Quicksilver
and
so
early
in
generality.
We
are
a
global
team
of
10
people
and
we
also
have
a
few
hard-working
interns.
X
X
Why
did
you
converge
into
that
model
and
also
like
what
could
be?
Potentially,
you
know
like
the
the
challenges
that
will
arise
from
from
that
model,
so
I
give
you
fantastic
challenges
on
where
to
find
them
the
crimes
of
liquids
taken,
and
it
is
a
bit
of
a
dramatic
title,
but
after
all,
I
am
French
and
we
are
in
Paris.
So
this
is
the
perfect
opportunity
to
embrace
drama
together.
X
So
they
they
they
solved.
For
you
know
the
default
usability,
they
also
solves
for
the
issue
of
Distributing
rewards
and,
and
they
also
kind
of
solved
for
slashing
or
for
risk
mitigation
generally
speaking
and
and
by
the
way,
if
you
want
to
learn
more
about
this,
there's
a
really
great
report
from
Chorus
one,
and
that
was
that
was
published
back
in
2020
the
liquids
taking
report.
It's
really
cool
and
it's
still
very
relevant
to
this
day.
X
So
obviously
the
first
and
perhaps
most
obvious
challenge-
is
centralization
and
I
think
that
today
we
have
enough
hindsight
to
sort
of
acknowledge
that,
unfortunately,
liquids
taking
has
been
a
centralizing
force
in
proof
of
stake
ecosystems,
and
so,
for
example,
you
know
around
30
percent
of
of
eat
is
take
through
Lido
across
something
like
29
validators,
which
I
think
we
can
all
agree
that
it's
not
a
very
desirable
outcome
to
their
credit.
The
lighter
team
has
been
trying
to
address
that
and
to
address.
You
know
like
the
issuers.
X
Take
distribution
with
some
initiatives
like
the
Lido,
V2
upgrades,
and
but
the
conclusion
here
is
that
you
know
stake
centralization.
It's
it's
something
that
is
very
very
hard
to
try
to
address
retrospectively,
and
so
this
is
the
ish
sort
of
issue
of
centralization
at
the
validator
set
level.
The
argument
can
be
made
that
centralization
can
also
be
viewed
at
the
level
of
the
liquids
taken
provider
where
we
could
evolve
to
a
situation
where
a
disproportionate
amount
of
stake
is.
X
You
know,
also
concentrated
with
a
handful
of
liquids
taken
providers
and
recently
in
Cosmos,
and
especially
at
the
level
of
the
cosmos
Hub.
We
have
seen
sort
of
a
lot
of
community
conversations
and
attempts
to
you
know
regulate
for
lack
of
a
better
word
and
like
regulate
the
the
use
of
like
liquids
taken
and
try
to
make
it
like
safer
and
better
for
users
and-
and
you
know,
trying
to
address
centralization-
could
be
one
of
the
one
of
the
topics
discussed
there.
X
So
here
it's
important
to
understand
that
delegated
proof
of
stake
has
an
economic
model
of
validator
competition,
so
validators
compete
with
each
other
for
the
stake
of
delegators
and
by
doing
that
they
are
not
just
infrastructure
providers.
They
provide
a
lot
of
value
and
a
lot
of
services
to
the
chains
and
the
ecosystems
that
they
validate
on,
and
you
know
they
they
produce
content,
they
educate
the
community,
they
participate
in
governance,
they
do
a
lot
of
cool
stuff
that
also
make
them.
X
You
know
economic
actors
at
the
level
of
these
chains
and
and
these
ecosystems
and
the
potential
issue
here,
is
that
liquids
taken
providers,
as
sort
of
you
know,
go
between
delegators
and
validators
kind
of
ignores
this.
You
know
this,
this
economic
Arrangement
between
delegators
and
validators,
that
he's
really
at
the
heart
of
delegated
proof
of
stake,
and
you
know
we
could
even
evolve
to
situations
where
there
could
also
be
some
misaligned
incentives
there.
X
And
so
we
could,
you
know,
try
to
like
figure
out
and
evolve
towards
liquids,
taking
models
and
designs
that
do
take
into
consideration
the
very
complex
and
the
Very
various
the
the
various
economic
Arrangements
between
delegators
and
validators,
or
at
the
very
least.
We
need
to
be
cognizant
of
like
the
Dynamics
that
are
at
play
here
and
how
they
can
kind
of
influence.
The
the
the
the
consensus
at
the
level
of
you
know
the
the
chains
and
and
the
ecosystems.
X
Think
we
can
all
agree
that
that
also
is
not
like
a
very
ideal
situation,
because
it
adds
like
an
additional
and
unnecessary
layer
of
risk
there.
So
one
way
to
go
about
it
could
be
like
getting
rid
of
the
Redemption
rate
model
entirely
and
having
you
know
like
a
fixed
Redemption
rates
between
the
assets
and
the
liquid
state
asset.
X
Now,
a
big
one
governance
so
especially
in
an
ecosystem
like
Cosmos
right
and
the
issue
today
with
liquids
taken,
is
that
if
you
decide
to
engage
in
liquids
taking
whether
you
are,
you
know
an
individual
user
or
a
an
Institutional.
If
you
engage
in
liquid
staking
it
means
that
you
need
to
leave
your
governance
participation
rights
at
the
door
and
and
we
can
understand
how
that
can
be
very
limiting
in
in
an
ecosystem
like
Cosmos.
X
Now,
thankfully,
all
the
chain,
agnostic
liquids
taking
protocols
today
have
a
plan
to
sort
of
address
that,
and
you
know,
make
governance
possible
with
liquids
taken
in
some
way
or
form.
But
you
know
even
considering
that
you
know
we
talked
earlier
about
the
issue
of
potential
centralization
with
liquids
taken.
If
we
believe
that
to
be
true,
then
we
are
going
to
be
facing
a
concentration
of
you
know:
governance
power
as
well
now
the
final
challenge
that
I'd
like
to
bring
forward
silos
everywhere
cross
chain.
X
You
know,
like
it's
highly
expected
and
it's
going
to
be
enabled
on
the
cosmos
Hub
soon,
and
it's
really
expected
to
improve
the
user
experience
and
to
to
drive
liquids
taking
adoption
up
and
now
to
the
issue
of
like
the
complex
default
usability,
especially
as
you
know,
as
as
a
user
today
in
Cosmos
and
so
yeah.
Basically
there's
you
know,
fragmentation
is
a
well-known
issue
in
our
ecosystem.
X
Smooth
and
simple,
as
possible,
for
users
to,
for
example,
transfer
the
liquid
state
assets
onto
different
chains
and
so
on
and
so
forth
and
I
know,
there's
a
lot
of
other
teams
within
Cosmos
that
are
working
on
this.
For
example,
the
team
at
42
money
is
working
on
a
ux
aggregator,
where
you
can
have
like
a
one.
X
You
know
point
of
entry
to
all
your
wallets
or
your
stake
positions,
LP
positions
and,
of
course,
liquids
taking
opportunities,
which
is
really
great
and
I,
think
that
the
team
at
skip
is
also
working
on
something
really
cool
sort
of
minimize
the
steps
that
it
takes
for
a
user
to
go
through
a
defy
user
Journey.
So
one
cool
user
use
case
that
we
see
for
it
with
liquids
taken,
is
the
ability
for
users
to,
for
example,
like
liquid
stake
and
LP
in
in
one
click,
one
transaction.
X
X
And
so
you
know
today.
We
are
also
trying
to
think
about
like
what
are
the
next
challenges.
The
next
pain
points
the
next
sort
of
Frontier
of
liquids
taken,
and
so
you
know,
I
want
you
to
imagine
with
me
like
what,
if
you
could
leverage
liquids
taking
tokens
that
exist
on
other
chains,
for
governance
or
what,
if
you
know,
risk
no
longer
had
to
be
socialized
or
users
no
longer
had
to
keep
track
of
really
painful
Redemption
rates,
and
also
what?
X
If
single
entities
could
like
mint
their
own,
like
customized
liquids
taken
protocol
based
on
their
own
preferences,
their
own
risk
profile,
their
own
choices,
and
so
yeah.
This
is
sort
of
what
we
expect
are
going
to
be
like
the
the
next
Frontier
for
for
liquids
taking
protocols
and
yeah.
This
is
what
what
we
are
currently
also
trying
to
work
on,
and
that
will
be
trying
to
sort
of
address
through
our
product
roadmap
in
the
next
year
or
so,
and
so
thank
you
so
much
for
listening
and
do
connect
with
us.
X
B
A
Z
AA
Which
is
a
data
available
to
learn
that
makes
it
possible
to
have
to
create
shared
security
for
Roll-Ups
and
one
of
the
things
we're
doing
as
well?
Is
you
have
a
project
called
roll
kit
which
allows
you
to
deploy
Cosmos
chains
as
Roll-Ups
on
Celestia
so
that
you
can
have
a
okay
so
that
so
that
Cosmos
chains
can
have
shared
security.
Y
Y
Z
Yeah,
so
why
did
we
choose
to
make
osmosis
an
app
chain?
Was
we
kind
of
realized
that
for
the
application
that
we
wanted
to
build
a
lot
of
the
things
we
needed
to?
Do
we
needed
to
go
change
the
core
blockchain
and
like
we
just
wouldn't
have
been
able
to
do
what
we
wanted
to
building
on
a
smart
Contracting
platform,
especially
when
you
want
to
go,
do
stuff
around
privacy,
or
you
know,
Mev
resistance
and
like
these
are
things
where,
like
privacy,
you
need
to
go
change.
The
cryptography
of
the
blockchain
I.
Z
Don't
have
the
ability
to
do
that
in
ethereum,
without
engaging
in
like
multi-year
long
EIP
debates,
or
you
know
if
I
want
to
go
change,
how
the
mempool
works.
It's
like
you
know,
I
can't
go
do
that
on
ethereum,
while
with
an
app
chain,
I
can
go
like
touch
all
of
these
like
core
parts
of
the
protocol,
without
having
to
ask
for
permission
from
anyone
and
I
can
like
make
the
blockchain
up.
Z
You
know,
ethereum
has
to
be
incredibly
neutral
or
any
generalized
L1
has
to
be
credibly
neutral
towards
the
applications
built
on
top
osmosis
does
not
need
to
be,
it
could
be
like.
Oh,
we
want
to
reserve
a
certain
portion
of
our
block
space
only
for
osmosis
trades.
We
can
do
that.
We
want
to
be
like
any
liquidity.
Ad
transition
transactions
have
to
go
before
any
trade,
so
you
can't
like
rug
liquidity
before
someone's
trade.
We
can
go.
Y
Sense
so
in
that
vertically
integrated
stack,
obviously
you
need
validators.
The
the
model
of
validation
is
evolving
rapidly
within
the
cosmos
ecosystem.
How
would
you
define
and,
like
you
know,
looking
forward
to
contrasting
it
with
Celestia
and
Roll-Ups
and
and
that
security
model?
How
would
you
describe
the
security
model
of
Osmosis
in
the
context
of
it's
validator
infrastructure?
You
know:
interchange,
security,
mesh
security,
and
how
do
you
see
that
evolving.
Z
Yeah
so
osmosis
started
off
like
every
typical
proof-of-stake
chain,
where
it
was
using.
You
know
it
had
its
own
native
token
called
osmo,
using
a
proof
of
stake
system
similar
to
every
Cosmos
chain.
Today,
then,
the
next
big
change
to
osmosis's
security
model
came
with
this
thing
called
super
fluid
staking
where
we
said:
hey,
Beyond,
just
osmo.
Why
can't
we
actually
use
the
defy
assets
built
on
top
of
the
chain,
most
of
which
are
backed
by
osmo,
have
osmo
underlying
them
in
the
D5
protocol
in
the
proof
of
stake
protocol
itself?
Z
So
what
you
could
do
that?
What
we
started
with
was
LP
share,
so
you
could
say
if
I
have
an
osmo
atom
LP
share.
You
know
that
has
real
osmo
underlying
I
can
take
the
lp
share
itself
and
use
it
in
the
proof
of
stake
protocol-
and
you
know
the
protocol
is
smart
enough.
It
understands
the
lp
shares,
so
it
could
be
like
oh
yeah,
this
LP
share.
Z
We
know
it's
worth
roughly
this
much
osmo
and
we're
going
to
provide
this
much
of
an
additional
discount
risk
factor
on
top
of
it
and
so
yeah
that
that's
how
that
came
about,
then
you
know
that
was,
if
you
think
about
a
super
fluid
staking
it's
sort
of
this,
like
Proto
version
of
mesh
security,
where
Mass
security,
I
assume
most
people
here
are
pretty
familiar
with
it,
so
I'm
not
going
to
go
too
much
into
it.
If
I
need
to.
Let
me
know,
but
like
it's,
this
idea
that
hey.
Z
Why
can't
we
use
other
tokens
as
well
as
helping
secure
our
change
so
things
that
we
have
these
deep,
deep
economic
relationships
with
something
like
Axel
from
the
axillar
chain
or
Mars
tokens
from
the
Mars
chain?
Like
you
know,
these
are
things
that
we
are
very
economically
interdependent
on.
We
should
allow
all
of
them
to
be
also
used
to
secure
osmosis.
So
now
it's
like
you
can
use
base
osmo
or
you
can
use
defy
assets
on
the
osmosis
chain
or
you
can
use
staked
assets
on
other
chains
all
to
contribute
to
osmosis
Economic
Security.
Y
Z
Yeah
I
mean
I
think
having
like
long
term,
we
should
be
like
all
Cosmos
SDK
chains
should
be
generating
fraud
or
validity
proofs
right,
I.
Think
roll
kit
is
like
actually
making
progress
towards
that,
and
so,
if
the
question
is
like,
should
we
be
generating
these
fraud
proofs
and
using
them
in
our
Communications
with
other
chains,
then
the
answer
is
yes:
should
we
get
rid
of
a
decentralized
validator
set?
Z
No,
because
we
still
our
take
is
that,
like
fraud
and
validity
proofs
gives
you
safety,
they
a
single
sequencers,
still
don't
give
you
liveness
guarantees
or
censorship
resistance
guarantees,
and
for
those
you
know
for
liveness,
you
want
some
sort
of
decentralized
validator
set
for
censorship
and
resistance,
like
the
best
solution
that
we
know
of
is
threshold
decryption,
and
you
know
it's
in
the
name.
You
need
some
threshold
over
which
to
do
the
decryption
over
and
for
that.
A
tenderman
consensus
protocol
is
a
pretty
good
way
of
coordinating
a
threshold
decryption
protocol
yeah.
AA
Okay,
so
it's
not
a
spider,
so
you
know,
so
let
me
start
from
like
explaining
what
what
we're
trying
to
achieve,
especially
at
the
beginning.
So
the
reason
why
we
recited
last
year
is
because
we
saw
that
at
the
cosmos.
You
know,
vision
is
a
great
it's
a
fantastic
vision
of
having
you
know,
an
interchange
of,
like
hundreds
or
potentially
thousands
or
even
millions
of
interconnected
chains,
and
this
was
kind
of
like
the
anti-thesis
to
the
original
ethereum.
AA
It's
getting
wrote
about
the
time,
which
was
just
like
one
one
big
chain,
and
that
was
sharded
was
this.
Cosmos
was
like
okay,
anyone
can
just
create,
can
create
their
own
chain,
but
the
problem
that
we
saw
with
that
was
that
with
IBC.
Specifically,
if
you,
if,
if
you
imagine
a
world
where
millions
of
chains
which
is
very
feasible
like
there's
millions
of
websites,
there
could
be
millions
of
chains,
but
very
early.
AA
AA
So
it's
no
longer
like
different
chains,
have
different
levels
of
security.
All
the
rollouts
have
the
same
level
of
security
because
they
inherit
consensus
and
data
consensus
and
ordering
from
the
from
the
base
layer.
But
that
being
said,
I
still
I
also
like
think
that
it's
a
like
I
think
people
should
also
be
free
if
they
create
their
own
change
with
their
own
validator
set
like
I'm,
not
I'm.
AA
Y
That
makes
a
lot
of
sense.
You
know
I
think
you
know,
there's
definitely
room
for
both
right
now
and-
and
you
know,
but
I
think
we
need
to
get
a
little
bit
into
the
distinction
between
those
things
and
how
they
might
they
might
conflict
first
I
want
to
talk
about.
I
know
you
announced
something
recently
Sunny
the
collaboration
between
Celestia
and
osmosis.
Do
you
want
to
say
anything
about
that.
Z
Oh
yeah
I
mean
it's
not
it's.
You
know,
osmosis
is
interested
in
being
the
interchained
decks
and
you
know
trying
to
provide
interchange,
no
part
of
the
modular
stack
is
that,
like
not
everything
needs
not
every
chain,
not
every
roll
up
needs
every
service.
On
top
of
it,
Cosmo
osmosis
has
the
most
developed,
defy
ecosystem
on
in
the
causals
ecosystem
and
like
as
more
and
more
Roll-Ups
come
on
to
Celestia.
Like
you
know,
a
lot
of
them
focus
on
things
like
gaming.
Z
What
we're
doing
is
like
making
sure
it's
very
easy
to
bridge
Tia
onto
the
rest
of
these
Roll-Ups
right,
because
they
need
to
pay
for
data
availability,
and
you
know
having
I'm
a
strong
believer
in
that
you
need
to
have
like
protocol
owned
treasuries,
paying
for
this
core
infrastructure,
rather
than
allowing
Dev
teams
and
Foundations.
To
do
that.
Z
You
have
the
situation
on
arbitrum
a
few
months
ago,
where,
like
the
dev
team,
failed
to
pay
the
da
costs
on
fund
the
wallet
on
ethereum
that
paid
for
the
da
cost
and
like
the
chain,
came
to
a
halt
right.
So
instead
you
want
systems
where,
like
oh,
maybe,
Argus
could
pay
in
its
own
native
token,
it'll,
swap
for
Tia
on
osmosis
and
pay
pay
for
the
D.A
on
on
Celestia.
Y
Z
So
I
guess,
like
my
general,
take
on
this
whole
framing
of
Roll-Ups
or
versus
mesh
security
as
well
is
it's
like
there
are
so
like
I
said,
Roll-Ups
provide
you
proofs
for
certain
types
of
things
right.
They
can
prove
that,
like,
oh,
the
the
state
transition
function
of
your
system
was
valid
and
you
can
prove
that
to
something
or
someone
at
the
end
of
the
day.
Z
At
the
end
of
the
day,
it's
a
security
model
comes
from
Economic
Security,
it's
not
a
roll-up
to
anything
else
right,
and
so
the
goal
of
mesh
security
is
how
do
we
maximize
the
amount
of
Economic
Security
of
system
so
would
ethereum
be
better
off
secured
by
just
eth
or
secured
by
eth
and
the
entire
ecosystem
of
app
like
of
defy
assets
built
on
top
of
it
right?
The
same
way
osmosis
is
more
secure
with
superfluid
staking
than
without
super
fluid.
Staking
there's
other
things.
Z
Y
Z
It
is
just
a
protocol
for
people
to
add
slashing
conditions
to
actions
right,
so
it
is
implemented
as
an
interface
that
you
can
write
arbitrary
slasher
contracts
for
the
initial
contract
that
we
wrote
is
for
tender,
mint
consensus,
proofs
fraud,
proofs
right,
but
you
you
know
we're
going
to
write
a
dump
like
a
contract
for
oracles
right,
we'll
be
like
oh
here's,
this
Oracle
Network
and
like
if
you
provide
an
oracle
update,
that's
too
far
away
from
everyone
else's.
That
is
a
slashing
condition.
Z
AA
Z
That's
up
to
the
chain
right
like
so
some
chains
might
say:
oh,
we
want
to
wait
a
challenge,
fraud,
proof
window
before
we
accept
IBC
package
right,
let's
say
two
roll
kit
chains.
They
might
want
to
wait.
The
the
fraud
proof
challenge
window
right
for
osmosis.
You
know
from
our
product
perspective.
Like
you
know,
one
of
the
things
people
love
about
us
is
that
you
can
deposit
Assets
in
a
matter
of
seconds
and
increasing
that
to
minutes
or
hours
to
accommodate
these
challenge-proof
windows.
It's
like!
Z
AA
Z
Yeah,
so
exactly
like,
you
know,
I
think
that
the
roll-up
model
makes
it
very
good
make,
making
it
as
easy
as
possible
to
deploy
like
a
state
machine
is
great,
but
where
mesh
Security
is
coming
in
is
like
okay,
they're
most
applications
have
other
things.
They
need
to
be
correct
other
than
just
the
state
transition
function
right.
If
you
have
a
shared
sequencer
system
or
some
sequencer
system,
you
want
some
economic,
secure
security
guarantees
around
your
censorship
resistance
mechanism.
AA
So
yeah
I
mean
the
it's
definitely
true
that
a
lot
of
Roll-Ups
these
days
aren't
very
the
ultimate
sensitive
resistant.
But
it's
also
also
like
some
important
nuances
that,
because
a
lot
of
people
think
that
you
need
a
decentralized,
some
people
think
okay,
well
you're,
basically
Reinventing
blockchains
by
having
by
needing
the
centralized
sequences
for
Roll-Ups,
but
there's
various
designs
that
don't
really
require
decentralized
sequences.
That,
for
example,
like
there's.
AA
This
thing
called
base
Roll-Ups,
where
you're,
basically
like
there's
no
sequence
at
all
you're,
just
using
whatever
like
you're,
using
whatever
the
blocks.
However,
the
blocks
are
ordered
on
the
base
layer,
so
you're
using
the
base
layer
for
sequencing
that
does
leak
maybe
to
the
base
layer,
but
but
ultimately
the
ultimate
goal.
Z
Z
That's
not
familiar
is
the
idea
that,
like
oh
instead
of
submitting
transactions
to
the
sequencer
you
instead
submit
from
you
use
your
da
layer
as
your
sequencer
as
well,
so
you
submit
transactions
directly
to
Celestia
and
the
job
of
the
sequencers
or
state
machines
is
to
like
read
the
transactions
from
the
da
layer
directly
and
like
construct
the
blocks
on
top
of
that
which
I
think
works
for
some
use
cases.
It's
as
you
get
more
advanced
in
your
use.
Z
Extensions
to
you
know,
provide
price
Oracle
data,
but
we
don't
want
these
things
to
be
decrypted
unless
the
price
Oracle
data
has
come
in
right,
and
so
once
you
get
into
these
like
complex
workflows
it
like
it,
it
really
the
base
role
using
a
base,
roll
up,
which
is
not
fully
programmable,
becomes
kind
of
harder,
and
you
want
at
that
point.
You
kind
of
just
do
want
your
own
decentralized
sequencer
system,.
AA
Z
AA
Yeah
I
mean
there's
definitely
trade-offs
between
and
like.
It
definitely
makes
sense
in
many
use
cases
to
have
a
decentralized
sequences
that,
especially
if
you
want
like
better
guarantees
around
you,
know
professional,
decryption
and
also
other
things,
like
kind
of
like
multiple,
more
trust,
minimized.
Soft
penalty
guarantees,
yeah.
Y
So,
let's,
let's
push
into
that
a
little
bit,
so
you
know
one
of
the
one
of
the
criticisms
Slash,
like
you
know,
if
you're
you're,
a
Dev
deciding
how
to
architect
your
your
platform,
one
of
the
things
you're
thinking
about
is
actually
cost
right.
So
there's
some
criticism
that
having
your
own
validator
set
costs
a
lot
you
have
to
have
emissions
over
time.
Etc,
you
know
within
the
roll-up
model
in
the
modular
model,
sounds
like
they're
a
lot.
You
know,
there's
an
increasing
number
of
things
you
have
to
pay
for
right.
Y
Y
Z
The
I
think
there's
like
different
types
of
costs
that
exist
right,
like
something
like
da
I,
think,
there's
a
pretty
strong
argument
that
there's
like
economies
of
scale
to
it,
because
of
like
how,
like
the
encoding
in
Celestia
works
like
the
more
data
that
you
get
it's
actually
it's
better
to
have.
There
are
economies
of
scale
of
having
one
da
like
layer
that,
like
does
the
retirement
encoding
versus
like
many
separated
ones
right.
Z
Z
So
on
you
know,
in
the
Celestia
model,
do
you
have
an
opinion
or
is
the
you
know
the
stack
itself
opinionated
about
how
those
costs
are
structured?
Have
you
thought
about
that?
In
your
design,
yeah
I
mean
the
way
they're
like
to
use
analogy.
The
way
I
would
compare.
It
is
like
launching
your
own
Cosmos
chain
is
like
having
your
own
physical
server
and
maintaining
it
like
buying
a
physical
server
co-locating,
a
Data
Center
and
maintaining
that,
whereas,
like
using
roll
ups,
is
kind
of
like
just
using
AWS
on
the
cloud.
Z
This
the
server
has
higher
ups
on
Capital
costs
and
you
need
like
higher
like
potential
labor
costs.
You
need
like
someone
to
maintain
it,
whereas,
like
the
clouds,
the
cloud
there's,
no,
it
might
be
more
expensive
on
a
like,
not
even
necessarily
more
expensive,
but
like
a
certain
scale.
If
you're,
if
you're
like
a
big
Corporation,
they
might
be
more
expensive
but
like
for
most
people,
it's
cheaper
and
also
there's
less
upfront
cost
you're
just
playing
you
know
it's
like
pay
as
you
go
yeah,
so
that's
that's.
Z
Z
Can
you
say
a
little
bit
about
the
validator
architecture
that
Celestia
has
chosen
right
and
and
I'm
I'm
trying
to
relate
this
back
to
what
we
were
talking
about
before
in
sort
of
chorus
one's
analysis
of
you
know
the
more
things
that
you're
validating
the
higher
the
cost,
and
you
know
that
that
potentially
being
a
centralizing
force
so
say
I'm
a
validator
on
Celestia
and
say
you
know:
I've
already
developed
this
specialized
infrastructure
to
provide
D.A
right.
That's
that's
optimized,
for
that.
Maybe
I
also
provide
eigen
da.
Z
Maybe
I,
do
you
know
polygons
d
a
etc?
Are
you
concerned
at
all
about
that
becoming
a
centralizing
force
in
validator
architecture?
And
how
have
you
thought
about
that?
Yeah
I
mean
centralization
in
Block
production
and
about
the
infrastructure,
is
kind
of
like
a
huge
General
problem
in
in
blockchains
I.
Don't
really
know
if
anyone's
truly
like
really
managed
to
solve
it
on
a
long-term
perspective,
you
know
like
liquid,
like
to
me
proof
of
stake
is
basically
flawed.
Due
to
liquid
staking
like
at
least
the
current
iterations
are
proof
of
mistake.
Z
Liquid
is
taking
kind
of
creates
natural
monopolies,
but
the
way
I
see
it
is
that
they
kind
of
like
the
end
game
is
like
we
want
to
try
and
we
want
to
try
to
create
systems
where
and
the
end
user
can
verify
the
correctness
of
the
chain.
Even
if
block
production
is
centralized
and
that's
and
but
using
proof-based
systems
like
foolproofs
and
have
like
ZK
proofs.
You
don't
have
to
trust
evaluator
to
for
the
for
the
correctness
of
the
state
value
of
the
chain.
Z
In
some
cases
you
might
have
to
trust
them
for
sensitive
resistance,
but
there's
various
there's
various
ways
of
kind
of
like
trying
to
have
increased
message
of
resistance
in
the
presence
of
a
centralized
validator
set.
You
know
things
like
proposal
blocks,
operation,
auction
models
and
also
threshold
mental
encryption,
all
right
you're
at
90
seconds
each.
What's
your
most
outrageous
prediction
for
how
blockchain
architecture
is
going
to
change
in
the
next
two
years,
I
mean
I,
don't
know
you
know,
I
hope
this
isn't
outrageous,
because
this
is
nebulous
Summit
but
I.
Z
Z
Is
there
something
I
think
will
happen
or
would
I
want
to
happen
either
one,
but
whatever
would
be
most
exciting,
I
think
we
move
away
from
proof
of
stake
entirely
and
we
move
towards
like
new
sorts
of
like
civil
resistance
systems.
I'm
a
big
fan
of
reputation
like
web
of
trust
based
consensus
protocols,
and
you
know
I-
think
proof
of
stake
had
a
lot
of
superiorities
over
proof
of
work,
which
is
why
I
spent
years
working
on
it.
But
you
know
I,
think
I.
Z
It
has
flaws
and
I
think
that
there
is
a
world
where
we
can
build
better
things
than
proof
of
stake,
and
so
I'd
like
to
I
would
hope
that,
like
five
years
from
now
that
our
primary
blockchains
are
not
running
on
proof
of
stake
but
are
rather
running
on
these,
like
web
of
trust
based
consensus
protocols.
Do
you
think
about,
like
proof
of
personhood,
using
worldcoin.
Z
I
I
guess
like
what
I'm
looking
for
is
something
that,
like
decentralized
identity
systems,
that
you
know
not
using
World
coin
but
like
using
a
web
of
trust
to
get
some
sort
of
pseudo
identity
system,
yeah,
I,
guess
so,
there's
some
sort
of
proof
of
personhood
or
proof
of
some
type
of
personal
resistance
mechanism.
In
some
way,
do
you
think
we
ever
connect
back
to
bitcoin?
Z
Z
Z
Z
Z
However,
the
external
world
still
has
its
merits:
I'm
sure
that
Teedra
wasn't
really
talking
about
the
tech
world
and
this
definition
of
complex
Simplicity
is
a
little
vague.
So
what
does
it
really
mean
this
complex
Simplicity
in
the
context
of
the
crypto
world?
You
know
we're
often
so
focused
on
building
in
decentralized
ways.
We
talk
a
lot
about
governing
and
decentralized
ways,
but
what
it
really
means
is
that
we
have
to
overcome
the
hurdles
of
achieving
full
stack,
decentralization.
Z
So
when
we
are
looking
into
the
decentralized
world
with
protocols,
building
very
complex
systems,
you
know
achieving
full
stack
decentralization
for
both
on
chain
and
often
is
often
the
harder
things
to
do.
When
centralized
Solutions
were
presented
to
us
as
the
easy
and
lazy
option,
your
competitors
may
be
skeptical
about
fusac
decentralization
about
the
rois,
and
your
investors
may
be
not,
and
their
eyes
may
be
glazed
over
a
little
about
the
idea
of
full
stack
decentralization.
Z
Taking
from
the
heart
to
Source
compute
power
to
managing
the
network
security,
you
know
managing
the
notes,
behaviors
and
handling
privacy
and
everything.
Well,
we
are
tasked
with
it's
really
taking
all
those
and
condensing
that
to
a
few
clicks
and
make
it
easy
for
anyone
to
build
a
full
stack,
decentralized
application.
So,
instead
of
that
complex
Simplicity,
what
we
are
delivering
is
really
single,
simple
complexity
for
you
to
create,
manage
and
scale
your
decentralized
application
easily.
Z
Well,
before
I
dive
deeper
into
the
solution
that
we
provide
I
like
to
just
talk
a
bit
more
about
the
problems
that
we've
solved
and
created
that
really
brought
us
to
where
we
are
here
today
before
we
achieve
on
chain
decentralization.
You
know,
while
people
are
mostly
cynical
when
we
talk
about
history
of
any
sort,
but
Tim
bernernee
is
really
rightfully
the
Pioneer
that
has
this
idea
of
the
online.
Z
You
know
having
this
read
and
write
format
of
the
internet,
although
his
idea
was
sort
of
hijacked
by
the
commercialized
use
of
this
technology
to
provide
for
those
people
who
see
internet
as
a
drive-through
for
information
and
providing
a
read-only
format
of
the
internet.
What
we
achieved
today
and
on
the
on-chain
environment,
it's
sort
of
delivering
the
initial
vision
of
the
online,
which
is
providing
a
trustless
permissionless
access
to
a
shared,
Ledger.
Well,
I
guess
some
of
you
might
be
wondering
why
on-premise,
which
was
really
what
we
started
before
achieving
online.
Z
Why
is
that
one
degree
of
decentralization
further
from
today,
so
on
premise
or
on-prem,
really
allow
users,
individuals
and
Community
to
have
their
local
control
of
their
private
data.
Their
access
and
private
Computing,
while
also
benefiting
from
this
shared
Ledger,
share
the
security
data
and
also
transparency,
so
really
combining
the
benefit
of
Both
Worlds.
Z
Z
So
we
divide
our
product
offering
into
three
segments
first
from
custom
built,
node,
Network,
Solution,
that's
tailored
specifically
for
your
ecosystem
or
network
need.
Currently
we
are
working
with
again
layer
and
cello
to
provide
greater
security
and
improved
stability
of
the
network,
and,
second,
is
the
community-owned
infrastructure.
Z
This
allows
your
community
to
run
your
front
and
back
end
in
a
decentralized
permissionless
way
and
which
bring
us
further
to
the
third
option,
which
is
the
fully
managed
solution
for
a
serverless
experience.
We
provide
both
serverless
functions
for
event-driven.
You
know
sort
of
building
like
a
smart
contract
logic,
also
combined
with
continuous
Solutions
provided
by
the
app
engine
and
actually
have
a
demo
for
you
to
see
how
it
works
in
motion,
but
basically
with
all
those
depending
on
how
your
need
is
and
how,
for
your
average
person,
the
features
is
needed.
Z
You
can
find
yourself
fall
into
at
a
given
point
of
the
spectrum
and
blockless
leverage
web
assembly
or
wasm
and
webassembly
interface
or
so-called
wazzy,
and
this
architecture
allow
us
to
get
a
few
advantages.
First
is
the
ultra
portable
nodes,
so
you
can
run
a
block
list
node
on
a
web
browser.
That
means
you
can
run
a
node
on
your
phone
or
your
laptop
and
Achieve
front-end
and
back-end
full
stack
decentralization
for
people
from
the
community.
Z
It
means
that
you
can
get
fairly
compensated
for
easily
participating
and
contributing
your
Hardware
resources
and
for
Builders
out
there.
You
know
it
means
that
you
can
achieve
a
fully
decentralized
Global
Network
to
have
your
application,
backed
by
this
network,
so
for
early
projects.
This
provide,
you
know,
solve
the
co-star
problem
for
providing
a
readily
available
large
pool
of
your
target
users
and
for
mature
or
established
projects.
This
allows
a
degree
of
further
decentralization
that
was
previously
not
achieved
either
for
old
or
new
projects.
Z
This
offers
all
around
better
performance
for
your
application
and,
last
but
not
least,
is
hands-free
scaling.
So
this
is
really
the
core
and
basics
for
the
serverless
experience
that
we
provide.
So
your
application
can
be
built
once
and
then
deployed
everywhere,
where
the
fluctuation
of
the
workload
is
automatically
taken
care
by
the
lower
level
of
infrastructure
that
we
provide.
Therefore,
Builders.
You
can
focus
your
precious
time
in
building
your
application
logic
without
worrying
about
the
underlying
infrastructure
and
scaling
foreign.
Z
We
also
have
an
automatic
orchestration
achieved
by
this
cosmos-based
orchestration
chain,
so
this
chain
is
kind
of
like
running
a
uber
matchmaking
algorithm
that
optimized
the
allocation
of
the
compute
task
to
the
available
Hardware
resources.
Thanks
to
webassembly,
we
can
achieve
accurate
provision
of
a
task
Hardware
resource
consumption
prior
to
running
the
task.
Z
Z
You
can
easily
pick
and
choose
what's
most
suitable
for
your
application
needs
and
then,
after
the
configuration
hit,
deploy
now
your
application
or
your
function
is
deployed
to
a
global,
Ash,
Computing
Network,
based
on
the
requirement,
we
do
roll
call
across
the
entire
network
to
Source
the
most
suitable
nodes
to
get
involved
in
executing
the
task.
Based
on
your
specification-
and
here
you
see
that
we've
selected
the
notes
based
on
the
requirements
and
then
roll
call
is
complete.
Z
Z
So
what
block
lists
really
enable
is
to
give
you
a
universal
toolkit
to
build
with
ease
to
achieve
your
application,
your
application
specifications
and
requirements?
So
I'd
like
to
show
you
just
a
very
simple
example:
well,
one
client
of
ours
that
is
using
block
list
to
achieve
full
stack,
decentralization
humans.ai.
They
are
a
AI
data
and
Marketplace
that
leverages
pre-trained
models
and
open
source
models
and
data
sets
to
provide
a
Cutting,
Edge
AI
Solutions.
Z
Some
examples
include
those
with
private
trained
data
to
execute
traits
on
your
own
device,
based
on
your
personal
preferences
and
also
for
pharmaceutical
uses.
Those
humans.ai
people
are
actually
here
today.
If
you
are
interested,
yeah
feel
free
to
ask
more
questions
about
how
their
technology
is
revolutionizing,
the
world
that
we
live
in
today,
but
there
are
three
basic
premise
that
they
would
like
to
achieve:
one
is
permissionless
access
to
their
platform
and
to
the
open
source.
Z
Libraries
and
second,
is
ai.
Verifiable,
ai
executions
and
third,
is
privacy
control
of
private
data,
so
they
leverage
block
lists.
First,
is
the
secure
sandbox
environment
to
run
AI
models
across
a
variety
of
different
GPU
and
CPU,
and
second
is
the
peer-to-peer
Network
that
provides
permissionless
access
and
also
combined
with
the
consensus
and
ZK
to
ensure
the
secure
and
correct
execution
of
the
model
and
the
results.
Obviously,
all
those
cannot
be
achieved
on
a
blockchain
just
because
of
the
intensity
of
the
compute
of
llm
and
large
data
set
with
large
parameters.
Z
We
think
that
decentralization
should
be
easy
and
it
should
be
top
to
bottom
end
to
end
from
backend
to
front
end
so
which
really
bring
us
to
an
incident
that
happened
in
the
past
few
weeks,
we're
a
multi-chain
team,
they
Tweed
about
getting
help
from
GoDaddy
to
bring
down
their
own
website.
This
is
just
one
example
of
the
community
governance
without
true
Community
power
and
with
block
lists
we're
able
to
achieve
both
so
which
really
brings
to
this
little
tribute
to
the
internet.
Z
One
of
our
engineer
actually
did
this
as
a
side
project
to
leverage
the
dynamic
functions
to
allow
anyone
to
easily
launch
and
host
a
decentralized
dynamic
front
end,
which
means
that
you
can
not
only
have
your
static
assets
and
content
hosted,
but
also
Dynamic
functions
rendered
in
to
a
decentralized
network.
So
we've
used
this
to
build
our
own
website
as
a
quick
demo.
Here.
This
is
how
you
really
Leverage
The
CLI,
to
build
using
the
block
list
sites
as
the
template
to
launch
your
own
website.
Z
So
what
you
see
here
is
basically,
after
we
installed
the
SDK
you're
able
to
select,
based
on
the
templates,
configure
what
you
need
for
the
render
into
the
binaries
of
the
Tomo
file
that
specify
how
many
nodes
you
need.
What
are
the
dynamic
as
well
as
static
con
data,
all
those
are
stored
in
the
directory
of
ipfs
or
other
storage,
for
example,
S3
and
after
you
specify
the
actions
required
by
each
node
and
then
you
can
deploy
and
you
can
build
and
then
deploy
your
site
here.
Z
Z
For
those
of
us
building
towards
some
sort
of
vision
of
the
decentralized
future
we
choose
to
collaborate
and
the
work
that
we've
done
actually
require
a
degree
of
collaboration
that
wasn't
previously
needed
before
so
really
appreciate
everyone.
That's
building
in
this,
especially
interchange
interoperability
using
the
modular
text,
stack
to
build
on
top
of
each
other
yeah.
Thank
you.
So
much.
Z
Hello,
hello.
There
we
go.
Thank
you
very
much.
Last
presentation
of
the
day,
just
before
Seb
comes
on
and
closes
I
just
wanted
to.
Personally
thank
all
the
attendees,
the
projects,
sponsors
organizers.
It's
been
an
honor
and
a
pleasure
being
here
today
and
I
hope
everyone
enjoys
day
two
and
I
will
let
Seb
take
the
stage
to
finish
day
one
thanks,
Danny
wow,
that
was,
that
was
a
crazy
day.
Z
I
hope
everybody
enjoyed
day
one.
We
had
some
hiccups.
We
had
some
issues,
but
we
plowed
through
them
and
just
kept
kept
going.
So
thanks,
everybody
for
being
here
thanks
for
your
patience
through
those
through
those
challenges
this
morning,
so
I
was
just
checking
with
with
the
team
over
at
the
front
desk
and
400
people
came
through
today.
Z
Z
Absolutely
killing
it
as
an
emcee
thanks.
So
much
really
appreciate
it
and
yeah
thanks
again
to
all
the
sponsors:
Neutron
dydx,
okp4,
Secret,
check,
D
agoric,
Celestia
chain
flow,
Juno,
Care,
One,
Nim,
BPI,
France,
no
land,
interchange,
Foundation,
kado,
polymer,
Akash,
Loop,
composable,
Kira
and
I.
Think
that's
all
the
sponsors,
but
that's
like
tons
of
sponsors,
but
thank
you
to
all
the
sponsors
for
making
this
possible.