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From YouTube: ReFi Summit 2023: Panels: Carbon Innovation Panel
Description
Panel on Carbon Innovation at the ReFi Summit in Seattle, WA, May 2023. Panelists include:
Paul Gambill: CEO, Nori
Gabriel Kent: Head of Product, KlimaDAO
Gregory Landua: CEO, Regen Network
Mark McPherson, Executive Director and Founder City Forest Credits
A
B
A
I'm
actually
getting
used
to
saying
your
name:
Gabriel
Kent
from
clima
and
Mark
McPherson
from
City
forest
credits.
Thank
you,
gentlemen.
For
joining
us,
rightly
or
wrongly
last
year,
this
panel
got
a
reputation
for
the
spicy
one
of
the
spicier
panels,
so
I'm
gonna
try
to
live
up
to
that
without
making
any
enemies
from
my
friends
here
on
the
stage.
A
C
So
is
nature.
Carbon
ton,
the
perfect
carbon
credit.
No,
you
know
there
was
the
Vera
article
that
came
out,
which
was
a
really
hot,
take
sort
of
like
donkey
approach
to
bringing
to
the
public
light,
something
that
anybody
who
had
spent
much
time
studying
carbon
markets,
understood,
which
is
that
a
lot
of
the
science
behind
the
process
of
making
a
carbon
claim
is
quite
complex
and
different.
C
That's,
and
so
so
in
my
mind,
getting
that
all
up
and
out
and
into
a
in
a
mutable
or
durable,
transparent,
Community
governed
like
marketplaces
that
are
embedded
in
community
processes
in
which
all
of
the
biases
and
decisions
and
science
is
transparent
and
available,
and
we
can
start
to
order
and
sort,
and
you
know,
choose
and
discount
things
that
we
don't
like
and
value
things
that
we
do
like
is
The
Right
Move.
Actually,
so
you
know.
So
it's
not
necessarily
garbage
in
garbage
out
right.
C
We
can
put
garbage
into
the
system
and
then
compost
it
and
then
grow
something
new
out
of
it.
That's
how
I
would
summarize
what
I
think
is
happening
so
and
in
that
you'll
notice,
like
I'm,
not
defending
the
you
know
reduced
emissions
credits
from
Vera
I
personally,
don't
love
those
and
think
that
there's
probably
much
better
ways
for
a
lot
of
reasons.
Science,
equity.
D
I
think
it
might
be
helpful
to
give
kind
of
a
to
basically
plus
one
everything
rigory
to
set,
but
just
to
give
like
a
little
bit
of
like
a
landscape
analysis
on
what's
going
out
there
in
the
world,
because
I
think
that
a
thing
that
seems
sort
of
common
to
me,
especially
in
the
refi
Community,
is
like
we're
coming
from
a
web,
3
and
crypto
background,
and
so
we're
thinking
about.
How
do
we
use
these
tools
to
solve
these
problems?
D
That
makes
total
sense,
but
when
we're,
when
you
zoom
out
and
you're
looking
at
the
entire
like
geopolitical
landscape
and
how
is
carbon
and
other
types
of
assets,
how
are
these
evolving?
It's
not
really
just
like
a
liquidity
or
a
fungibility
problem,
and
those
are
the
things
that,
like
crypto
and
web
free
provides
best
so
to
to
go
on
to
what
Gregory
was
saying
like
first
off,
there
are
different
types
of
let's
just
stick
to
carbon
for
now
different
types
of
carbon
assets.
There
are
carbon
avoidance
projects.
D
B
D
Atmosphere
and
even
those
break
down
into
different
segments
now
and
the
sorts
of
buyers
out
there,
usually
Enterprises
and
companies
who
are
buying.
These
are
distinguishing
between
things
that
are
often
more
nature
based,
so
soils,
forestry,
mangroves
blue
carbon,
that
kind
of
thing
and
things
that
are
more
engineered
and
another
way
to
think
about
that
might
be
stuff
that
is
less
permanently
stored
or
sequestered
versus
stuff.
D
Customers
are
thinking
about
this
in
an
entirely
different
way
than
this
community
has
been
approaching
this
stuff,
and
so
the
the
first
problem
that
has
to
be
solved
is
the
actual
underlying
quality
of
the
asset.
It's
the
the
main
issue
out.
There
is
not
necessarily
whether
these
assets
become
more
liquid
or
more
easy
to
trade.
D
In
fact,
I
would
argue
that
we
shouldn't
be
trading
them,
but
the
actual
carbon
projects
themselves,
and
so
I
think
that
sometimes
we
get
a
little
bit
like
over
our
skis
on
these
issues
and
are
not
necessarily
pausing
to
stop
and
think
about.
What
is
the
actual
benefit?
Is
it
how
much
carbon
is
coming
out
of
the
atmosphere?
How
is
it
being
sequestered?
How
is
that?
D
A
E
E
I
like
this
compost
idea,
shouldn't
compost
out
and
I
think
that's
what
we've
been
focused
on
primarily
is
building
this
infrastructure
with
the
assets
we
have
not
the
assets
we
wish
we
had,
but
the
assets
that
we
have
today
and
and
I
think
that's
important,
because
this
is
the
infrastructure
that
new
assets
that
that
come
online
will
will
plug
into
and
utilize
like.
We
don't
necessarily
need
to
have
the
perfect
asset
to
understand
how
that
asset
will
trade
or
how
that
asset
will
be
utilized.
E
That
still
creates
a
need
for
that
infrastructure,
and
that's
something
certainly
that
clementow
has
been
focused
on
over
the
last
year
is,
is
building
that
infrastructure
and
you
know,
I
think
what
we'll
be
discussing
a
little
bit
later.
Hopefully
after
this
is,
we
spent
the
last
year
building
infrastructure,
and
now
we're
focused
quite
a
bit
on
collaboration
on
that
infrastructure.
E
We
just
recently
announced
our
our
accelerator,
the
carbon
Mark
accelerator.
We
launched
carbon
Mark
itself
which,
which
we
call
the
universal
carbon
Market.
This
is
again
all
infrastructure
that
we
need
and
we
fully
anticipate
that
products
will
improve,
that
assets
will
improve.
I
mean
we
see
the
quantity
education
of
Earth
happening.
Now
we
see
remote
sensing,
we
see
iot
sensors.
E
These
are
all
coming
into
play
right
and
this
is
going
to
create
a
a
better
product
overall,
and
this
is
what
markets
do
markets
take
a
product
that
sucks
at
the
beginning
and
through
iteration
it
improves
it
and-
and
that's
what
we
expect,
but
in
order
for
that
Improvement
to
happen,
you
need
the
infrastructure.
You
need
to
support
the
the
fundamentals
of
the
market
itself
and
that's
that's.
What
we're
primarily
focused
focused
on
Mark.
A
I
have
a
question
for
you,
so
City
forest
credits
recently
sold
some
of
your
credits
to
Jack
Johnson,
congratulations,
or
at
least
that
was
part
of
the
part
of
the
purchase
very
exciting
through
regen
Network.
If
the
guardian
comes
hunting
for
you,
what
are
they
going
to
find?
Are
they
going
to
find?
Can
can
you
back
your
credits?
Can
you
prove
that
the
underlying
methodologies
are
solid,
and
why
did
you
need
web3
to
bring
this
to
Market.
F
F
The
big
Registries
hadn't
done
that
and
yet,
from
our
point
of
view,
our
cities
are
being
essentially
deforested.
The
city
forests
are
not
equitably
distributed
or
maintained.
Municipal
budgets
can't
keep
up
with
that.
So
if
there
was
ever
a
public
interest
credit
that
could
be
out
in
the
market,
if
there
was
ever
a
sector
that
needed
funding,
it
would
be
the
urban
Forest
carbon.
So
we
essentially
started
a
registry.
F
Now,
that's
maybe
not
uncommon
now,
but
when
we
started
that
no
one
was
really
doing
that
so
I
look
at
the
panelists
here
and
I
know:
Gregory
I,
look
at
all
of
you.
I'm
thinking
you
all
are
The.
Visionaries
and
I
have
incredible
respect
and
admiration
for
what
you
do,
because
you
are
imagining
a
world
not
not
just
of
distributed
ledgers
but
distributed
projects
that
may
be
very
small
but
incredibly
valuable,
distributed.
Buyer
pools
with
the
millions
of
people
who
want
to
do
something
about
climate
change,
but
they
don't
know
how
to
do
it.
F
Maybe
your
question
a
little
bit
more
more
closely:
I
I
call
you
Visionaries,
I
sort
of
think
of
of
us
as
mechanics
and
I'm,
not
being
falsely
modest
about
that,
because
a
mechanic
built
the
first
bicycle
and
two
mechanics
from
Ohio
built
the
first
flying
machine.
So
building
something
new
is
really
hard
and
our
work
has
been
very
hard
to
build.
Something
new
I
will
tell
you
very
early.
I
got
an
introduction
to
one
of
the
top
carbon
people
at
The,
Nature
Conservancy.
F
So
this
back
in
2016
I
explained
what
we
wanted
to
do
and
he
said
well
what
registry
you're
going
to
use
and
I
said?
Well
we're
going
to
start
our
own
registry
and
there
was
a
long
pause
on
the
phone
and
then
he
said
you
can't
do
that
now.
I
I
think
come
across,
sometimes
as
mild
mannered,
but
I
really
don't
like
it.
When
people
say
you
can't
do
that,
and
my
guess
is
this
room
is
filled
with
people
who
don't
like
to
be
told.
You
can't
do
that.
F
You
all
want
to
do
something,
that's
not
being
done
so
what
I
had
to
do
as
a
mechanic
was
essentially
take
a
world
that
was
already
there
and
create
something
new
within
that
world.
So
I
had
a
I
had
a
more
constrained
playing
field
to
to
work
on
which
is
both
good
and
bad.
My
challenge
really
was
translation
and
the
translation
was
between
the
carbon
world.
That
speaks
its
own
language,
its
own
jargon,
its
own,
its
own
technology
and
the
urban
Forest
people
who
are
mostly
local
organizations,
local
governments.
F
They
don't
have
a
lot
of
resources,
they're,
not
even
all
that
entrepreneurial.
How
do
I
translate
the
carbon
world
to
all
these
Urban
Forest
people
so
that
they
will
understand
the
obligations
and
the
opportunities
for
them,
so
that
translation
problem
is
huge.
I
on
the
outside
I
see
you
all
as
having
a
bit
of
a
translation
challenge
too,
but
that's
what
happens
when
you
try
to
create
something
new.
So
on
the
quality
side,
you
know
we
took
all
the
consensus
principles.
F
We
developed
multiple
protocols,
we've
Road
tested
those
over
and
over
around
our
our
12th
version
of
the
protocol.
We
got
in
front
of
icroa,
which
is
the
international
carbon
reduction
Alliance
carbon
reduction
and
offset
Alliance
in
Geneva
Switzerland.
They
are
kind
of
the
Premier
endorsing
body
and
we
just
found
out
actually
a
couple
weeks
ago
that
we
were
endorsed
by
them.
Now
you
might
look
at
that
and
say
well.
You've
just
become
you've.
Just
sold
out.
You've
just
become
part
of
the
Legacy
carbon
program.
F
Well,
that's
the
field
that
we
were
playing
in
that
we
choose
to
play
in
we're.
Non-Profit
I
had
to
work
incredibly
hard
to
get
every
Foundation
dollar
to
do
what
we
did
so
I
didn't
have
a
long
Horizon
to
make
this
happen.
I
had
to
say,
there's
a
market
here:
let's
essentially
create
protocols
that
are
really
solid.
That
can
still
be
feasible
for
urban
forestry.
Let's
differentiate
the
credit
from
all
the
forest
credits
out
there
and
let's
take
that
to
Market.
F
So
quality
was
a
huge
part
of
that
and
I
would
like
to
say
we
wouldn't
be
endorsed
by
Crow
If.
Our
credits
were
crappy,
you
know,
they've
been
looked
at,
b0
has
reviewed
some
projects
and
give
them
AAA
ratings
so
by
the
Legacy
carbon
standard
are
I.
Think
our
quality
is
extremely
high.
Are
there
always
things
people
can
poke
at
I'm
sure.
A
D
There
are
real
challenges
around
measurement
and
verification
with
all
sorts
of
different
types
of
carbon
removal,
and
if
we
don't
solve
those
first,
then
the
buyers
aren't
going
to
be
willing
to
buy
them,
and
so
a
lot
of
the
problems
that
in
challenges
that
we
had
Nori
keep
running
into
are
not
necessarily
like
web3
related
they're
they're
much
more
around.
How
do
you?
How
do
you
actually
ensure
that
the
amount
of
soil
organic
carbon
that
has
been
removed
is
staying
in
the
ground?
D
How
do
you
present
that
information
to
buyers
in
a
way
so
that
they
feel
comfortable
with
the
transparency
of
it
and
they're
able
to
go
on
and
make
their
own
claims
to
their
stakeholders
about
the
carbon
that
they've
removed?
How
do
you
balance
these
sort
of
evolving
landscape
of
buyers
that
are
much
more
focused
on
permanent
versus
buyers
that
are
much
more
focused
on
nature-based
sort
of
solutions,
because
there
are
different
types
who
might
care
about
one
or
the
other
for
various
different
reasons?
D
How
do
you
deal
with
the
looming
threat
of
Regulation
that
these
big
Enterprises
are
facing?
Basically,
everyone
is
stuck
in
paralysis
right
now,
because
no
everyone,
like
think
of
like
major
major
companies,
Microsoft
Shopify
stripe,
are
the
ones
that
are
most
well
known,
who
have
been
making
commitments
around
carbon
removal,
but
beyond
that
you've
got
all
sorts
of
large
financial
institutions,
Airlines
Transportation
companies,
oil
and
gas
companies.
D
Everyone
is
expecting
that
there
is
some
point
in
the
future
where
they
are
going
to
be
regulated
and
their
emissions
are
going
to
be
managed
by
the
governments
of
the
world.
They
want
to
prepare
for
that
in
advance,
but
they
don't
know
how,
because
they
don't
want
to
make
a
wrong
move,
invest
a
lot
of
resources
and
go
down
a
path
and
have
that
not
be
accepted?
D
D
These
are
like
really
large
scale,
coordination
problems
that
don't
really
seem
to
have
like
any
sort
of
easy
solution
to
them,
and
that's
why
I
was
saying
that,
like
liquidity
and
fungibility
is
like
not
actually
the
issue
right
now,
the
real
issue
is
more
often
political
and
more
around
companies
trying
to
figure
out
what
they
can
do
now.
Keep
in
mind.
Let's
say
like
put
your
put
your
hat
on
where
you're
pretending,
you're
a
sustainability
director
at
a
large
Enterprise.
First
and
foremost,
your
goal
is
actually
how
do
I
reduce
my
own
emissions.
D
How
do
I
reduce
the
impact
that
we're
having
and
I
would
argue?
That's
the
right
thing
to
do.
You
should
be
reducing
your
emissions
before
you
focus
on
removing
or
offsetting
the
rest,
so
they're
they're
putting
resources
towards
that,
but
even
that
is
really
difficult
and
challenging
right
now,
so
the
the
market
out
there,
the
is
dealing
Also.
Let's,
like
you
know,
the
overhang
of
all
of
this
is
federal
interest
rates
and
the
global
economic
conditions
on
all
of
that,
and
that's
impacting
how
things
are
so
what
I
mean?
D
What
have
we
done
on
the
web?
Three
space,
like
we've,
we've
finally
launched
our
on-chain
marketplace
where
anyone
can
integrate
with
our
smart
contracts,
we're
hosting
a
workshop
tomorrow
at
12
30,
where
you
can
come,
learn
about
how
to
integrate
Nori
carbon
removal
into
any
dap
that
you
might
be
building.
C
C
We
see
the
way
that
it
has
to
work.
If
it's
going
to
function,
right
and
I
think
Kevin
did
a
beautiful
job
of
inviting
us
into
this
sort
of
inspiring
vision
of
like
what
is
possible
when
we
can
program
our
money.
What
is
possible
when
we
have
transparency
and
visibility
into
the
the
very
human
process
of
changing
practices
on
a
farm
or
preserving
a
forest
or
replanting,
you
know
a
park
or
preserving
a
green
space
that
was
going
to
get
developed.
C
C
On
the
other
hand,
you
know,
there's
politics,
so
there's
embedded
interests
and
there's
an
old
way
of
doing
that
that
doesn't
want
to
be
disrupted
and
that's
just
the
way
it
is,
and
you
know
we
can't
complain
about
it
right,
and
so
this
is
where,
like
getting
back
to
Dave's,
first
sort
of
provocative
question,
our
decision
to
sort
of
you
know
and
I.
Don't
I,
don't
know
that
this
was
the
right
decision
actually,
but
I
think
it
was
made
for
the
right
reasons.
C
The
hard
thing
to
do,
though,
is
to
you
know,
sort
of
like
create
backwards,
compatibility
with
that
market
and
invite
it
to
transform
and
and
to
create
that,
like
I
was
using
that
composting
process
to
actually
create
a
process.
That
is
so
so
that
that
Community
is
able
to
also
because
Eve,
here's
here's.
You
know
this
may
be
radical,
or
maybe
this
is
like
completely
not
radical,
what
I'm
about
to
say,
but
humans
get
ourselves
into
coordination,
errors
and
political
binds
and
biases
and
entrenched
interests
in
any
situation
all
the
time.
C
So
it
isn't
that
the
existing
carbon
markets
and
the
existing
actors
are
bad.
I
may
be
frustrated
with
icroa.
You
know,
I
may
be
frustrated
with
Vera.
I
may
be
frustrated
with
you
know,
BP
or
shell,
which
have
these
massive
carbon
trading
desks
and
are
actually
the
the
bulk
of
the
activity
and
be
angry
about
that.
C
Even
if
it's,
even
if
it's
mistakes,
even
if
the
the
process
to
generate
consensus
around
a
baseline
for
avoided
deforestation,
is
complex
and
messy
and
imperfect.
There
is
actually
a
huge
amount
of
like
good
thinking
and
Earnest
like
really
like
people
devoting
their
entire
careers
to
answering
something.
So
I
think
that
you
know.
C
I
will
say
that
if
I
was
to
replay
last
year
over
again
and
like
do
it
all
again
and
it's
hard
to
do
these
counterfactuals,
but
probably
I-
think
there's
broad
consensus
amongst
the
regen
core
team
that
we
probably
would
have
just
focused
on
the
tools
for
monitoring,
reporting
and
minting
and
and
let
other
colleagues
who
are
in
you
know
engaging
with
sort
of
like
the
the
marketplace,
collation
and
sorting
and
other
things
do
that
and
just
sort
of
like
slowly
mature,
this
very
hard
system
at
the
time.
I
think
we
were
really
thinking.
C
You
know
there
has
to
be
movement.
There
has
to
be
activity,
you
know
and
I
also
think
we
under
like.
We
radically
underestimated
some
of
the
the
technical
challenges
of
building
two-way
bridges
for
interoperability
and
like
preserving
the
data
Fidelity
moving
across
different
systems.
So
there's
a
there
was
a
complex
problem
there,
which
we
underestimated.
C
If
we're
radical
about
enforcing
openness
and
interoperability
between
us,
a
lot
of
the
that
is
actually
sort
of
one
of
the
key
pillars
of
transforming
the
system
and
actually
making
it
distributed
modular,
composable,
open
and
allowing
people
to
really
Express
preference
and
take
action.
So
did
I
answer
your
question
or
just
talk
for
a
long
time.
A
G
A
And
I
do
want
to
leave
at
least
12
or
so
minutes
for
q.
A
so
with
that
said,
I
curious,
if
you
have
a
reflection
on
the
key
pillars,
I
I
just
say
generally
the
key
pillars
from
your
perspective.
That
Gregory
was
what
his
position
was
on.
Those
key
pillars
does
claima
have
different
key
pillars
right
now.
In
order
for
for
what
you
believe
is
necessary
to
succeed
and
I
guess
we
could
Define
what
succeed
for
the
next
phase.
E
Interoperability
definitely
so
and
I,
and
and
if
you
look
at
our
development
activity,
that's
what
we're
primarily
focused
on
right.
We
started
early
on
with
our
retirement
aggregator,
which
supported,
which
I
think
still
supports
the
greatest
types
of
digital
carbon
right
that
you
can
retire
through
apis.
E
We
as
I
said
we're
launching
the
the
carbon
Mark
accelerator.
It's
a
250,
000
incentive
or
or
prize
for
startups
in
the
space,
that's
going
to
include
coaching,
and
then
this
is
obviously
the
idea
is
that
these
startups
take
advantage
of
this
infrastructure.
We've
been
building
again
for
interoperability
right,
carbon
Mark
itself.
We
bill
it
as
a
universal
carbon
Market.
E
We
want
every
type
of
carbon
asset,
type
and
Beyond
carbon,
even
eventually
on
on
carbon
Mark
itself,
and
you
know
we're
trying
to
create
an
experience
that
is,
is
web
2
as
possible
so
that
we
can
reach
the
greatest
number
of
people
comfortably
while
the
back
end
is
still
all
web
3
and
it
is
all
open
source.
You
can
go
to
our
GitHub
today
and
you
can
see
all
of
card
memric
you
could
you
could
Fork
it
if
you
wanted
to
right.
E
This
is
this
is
core
to
our
ethos,
of
how
we're
building
I
think
you
know,
there's
there's
criticism
last
year
around,
you
know
clean
it
out
not
being
very
collaborative
and
I
think
it
was
mostly
because
we're
pretty
heads
down
in
building
a
lot
of
this
core
infrastructure,
but
you're,
seeing
particularly
over
this
year
that
we're
now
that
the
infrastructure
is
built.
We're
really
kind
of
opening
this
up
and
and
really
courting
participation
in
this
infrastructure
as
much
as
possible
and
again,
I.
Think
our
our
role
in
what
we
think
is
really
important.
E
E
E
We
believe
that
if
you
have
any
Market
Global
Market
sustained
Market,
you
need
to
align
the
incentives
and
you
need
to
have
the
tooling
that
that
will
support
that
alignment,
incentives
and,
in
the
end,
it's
kind
of
just
like
mundane
stuff
like
how
do
you
like?
How
do
you
provide
a
good
experience
for
the
user
right
and
the
user
in
this
case
is?
Is
you
know,
companies?
It's
it's.
It's
Traders!
It's
project
developers
right
like
we're,
trying
to
create
this
tooling
to
support
them
across
the
board.
E
A
B
F
Offer
a
couple
final
Reflections
one
is
I
mean
to
me
to
put
like
the
credits
we
issue
to
put
them
on.
The
Chain
makes
perfect
sense,
so
they're
not
all
residing
in
these
little
databases
everywhere.
All
splintered
up
I
mean
that's,
that's
like
a
no-brainer,
so
I
get
that
I
also
look
at
well.
How?
What?
How
can
my
world
help
your
world
and
vice
versa?
So
we
can
produce
really
high
quality
credits
that
are
essentially
public
interest
credits?
That's
very
rare!
F
That's
hard
to
find
so
that's
one
thing
we
can
offer
I,
think
it
and
then
I
think
well.
What
can
web3
do
for
for
this
kind
of
work
and
I
think
a
couple
things
one
is
our
processes
for
crediting
are
still
frustratingly
manual
in
my
point
of
view
and
if
those
could
be
in
a
way,
if
you
could
put
those
all
together,
if
you
could
do
it
like
refinancing
your
house,
which
they've
made
incredibly
easy
online
with
an
online
platform,
if
there
was
something
like
that
that
could
work.
F
So
this
is
all
transparent
and
all
frictionless.
That
would
be
great.
The
only
other
thing
I
would
say,
and
again
is
someone
looking
on
the
outside
at
the
web3
world,
I
think
of
these
these
rubrics
and
you've.
This
is
nothing
new
I
think.
How
do
you
change
the
world?
Well,
it's
generally
requires
four
things.
You
need
Visionary
and
strategic
thinking.
So
what's
the
vision
and
what's
the
map
to
get
there,
you
need
movement.
Building
Kevin
talked
about
that.
F
You
need
advocacy,
critical
and
you
need
implementation.
Those
are
the
four
prongs
that
I
look
at
this
world
and
I
think
wow.
There
are
all
kinds
of
people
here
that
are
that
are
proficient
skilled,
experienced
in
all
of
those
four
buckets,
if
you
put
them
all
together
and
organize
that,
and
and
so
there
weren't
panelists,
fighting
or
organizations
fighting
over
their
own
turf,
if
that
could
all
come
together,
I
think
that
would
be
amazing.
This
is
just
me
on
the
outside.
Looking
in.
B
G
A
few
of
you
mentioned
Politics
as
the
greatest
challenge
that
you
face
and
to
overcome
I'm
wondering
if
any
of
you
have
some
aspects
of
the
technology
or
this
space
in
general,
that
get
you
excited
about
lubricating
politics
or
making
political
boundaries
easier
to
overcome.
Gregory.
You
mentioned
proposals
endows
and
so
yeah
things
to
this
manner,
like
political
Innovations,
coming
in
the
space.
E
E
C
Just
say
very
briefly
that
yes,
definitely
like
one
of
the
biggest
focuses
we
have
is
on
aligning
the
stakeholders,
who
need
to
be
governing
something
with
and
with
the
tools
to
govern
that
and
to
make
that
as
local
as
possible.
So
we
have
our
friends
at
colossian,
Carbon,
trust
here,
Howard
and
we're.
C
So
there's
all
these
great
examples:
City
forest
credits,
closing
carbon
trust.
How
do
you
create
tools
where
people
can
stand
up
a
standard
that
is
governed
by
local
stakeholders
and
people
who
really
know
what's
going
on?
Instead
of
exporting
the
governance
into
these
layers
of
abstraction,
like
in
Geneva,
for
instance,
I
mean
with
all
respect
to
ikroa?
C
C
That
is,
the
pathway
to
legitimacy
and
real
Market
action.
If,
if
it's
out
somewhere
else,
it
won't
actually
work.
And
so
yes,
a
lot
of
our
attention
and
time
goes
to
that.
I
will
say,
though,
it's
a
challenge
to
devote
enough
resources
and
energy
into
those
governance
issues,
because
by
Nature
they
can't
be
value.
C
Extractive,
profit,
centers,
and
so
therefore,
when
you're,
trying
to
bootstrap
a
business
that
actually
has
to
sell
something
to
someone
in
order
to
sustain
you,
get
put
into
sort
of
the
the
classic
prisoners
dilemma
where
you
oftentimes
have
to
choose
one
way
or
the
other.
So
one
of
the
ways
that
we've
tried
to
address
that
at
regen
is
to
be
a
public
benefit
Corporation
and
be
very
clear
that
we're
putting
some
of
those
choices
at
the
core
of
how
we
make
decisions
and
we're
going
to
spend
resources
to
do
those
things.
D
I
want
to
add
briefly
to
that
too.
I
totally
agree
with
that,
but
to
your
question
like
at
Nori,
we
spend
a
lot
of
time
like
we're
a
two-sided
Marketplace,
so
we
spend
a
lot
of
time.
Thinking
about
where
are
the
sources
of
Supply
coming
in
and
and
what
are
the
different
segments
that
this
is
being
sold
to
and
in
the
past
historically,
we've
sold
a
lot
of
carbon,
our
nrts
to
web3
and
crypto
companies.
We've
sold
a
lot
to
small
and
medium
businesses.
D
Oh,
how
big
is
the
individual
consumer
segment?
Tiny
hunt
like
hundreds
of
tons
compared
to
like
I
like
a
typical
large
Enterprise
company,
might
be
looking
for
something
like
50
000
tons
to
a
hundred
thousand
tons
or
potentially
much
larger,
depending
on
if
they're
trying
to
deal
with
Legacy
emissions
from
past
years
and
that
sort
of
thing,
a
typical
small
to
medium-sized
business
might
be
looking
for
something
like
one
thousand
tons
to
5000
tons
and
a
typical
individual
is
looking
for
something
like
one
to
ten.
So
it's
it's
it's
a
very
small
amount.
D
D
C
That's
interesting,
I
I
mean
we
have
to
talk
about
that
later
tonight,
maybe
more
about
the
the
increase
SWAT
switch,
because
this
one's
just
a
much
lower
mic
I
think
that's
better
right.
Okay,
so
setting
aside
the
whether
or
not
in
setting
could
be
democratized
because
I
think
it
probably
could
be-
maybe
it's
unlikely,
but
maybe
it's
also
unlikely
that
offset
markets
are
democratized.
So
there's
like
a
deep
there's,
a
deeper
conversation
to
have
there
yes
in
setting,
is
very
likely
to
be
I.
C
C
Like
is
this
going
to
be
a
process
where
it's
actually
I
think
going
to
drive
companies
that
are
early
adopters
to
invest
more
aggressively
into
decarbonization
schemes,
because
they
can
essentially
start
producing
Surplus
credits
and
then
mature.
Those
into
offset
markets
right
and
so
I
think
P.
I
think
that
the
pattern
is
going
to
be
that
people
are
going
to
get
really
aggressive
about
in
setting
as
a
pathway
to
selling
offsets
essentially
and
there's
going
to
be
a
threshold
you're
going
to
have
to
mature
that
you
know
you're
going
to
have
to
turn
something.
C
That's
in
on
your
books,
accounting
and
mature,
that
into
a
unit
that
is
legitimate
in
a
different
way
in
a
specific
jurisdiction,
and
so
like
Crossing.
That
threshold,
like
the
certification
process
of
Crossing.
That
threshold
is
going
to
be
really
key
and
will
only
be
possible
I
think
to
the
extent
to
which
in
setting
is
taking
place
with
open
data
and
and
sort
of
durable
and
transparent
way
that
so
that
so
this
is
so
circling
back
to
politics.
E
Yeah,
just
I
we're
actually
doing
work
towards
this
right
now,
so
we
are
working
with
sap
to
provide
what
we
call
transactional,
offsetting
underlied
by
zero
knowledge
proofs,
and
it's
based
on
this
idea.
That
corporations
have
a
lot
of
private
data,
and
so
you
can
use
zero
knowledge
proofs
to
demonstrate
these
off
this
offsetting
or
or
this
in
setting
in
this.
E
The
clients
that
were,
or
the
users
were
working
with
are
using
this
for
their
scope,
three
to
validate
the
the
scope
three
emission
chain
through
sap,
essentially
and
their
Partners
in
their
vendors,
and
so
we
believe,
like
zero
knowledge
proves
like
underlie
this,
like.
How
can
you
demonstrate
climate
action
on
one
side
verifiably
and,
on
the
other
side,
protect
your
your
corporate
data?
And
so
this
is
why
we've
we've
been
working
very
because
we.
C
That
I'm
being
asked
to
provide
about
my
stewardship
of
this
place
that
the
company
that
I'm
selling
this
to
is
take
is
is
adhering
to
their
climate
action
pledges
and
doesn't
have
unethical
behavior
in
their
supply
chain
and
is
like
behaving
in
a
way
that
Matt
that
we're
actually
like
creating
reciprocity
around
a
shared
goal.
Right,
that's
and
there's
an
interesting
thing
here
at
the
intersection
of
zero
knowledge
reporting
and
in
setting
and
where
the
carbon
markets
actually
have
to
go.