Status Meetup // July 2018 Security Summit, 4 Jul 2018

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: Status July 2018 Security Meetup (Day 1: Afternoon session)

Description

Status July 2018 Security Meetup (Day 1 Afternoon session)
00:00:00 Security Champions
00:02:07 The Framework
00:03:26 Who are Security Champions
00:06:22 Why are Security Champions
00:09:33 How are Security Champions
00:09:56 Identify the teams
00:10:21 Define the role
00:11:57 Nominate Champions
00:14:19 Setup comms
00:15:40 Build KB
00:16:30 Maintain Interest
00:25:00 Recap
00:30:44 Analyzing and Documenting user risks and use errors
00:31:32 Goals
00:32:16 UXR's role in risk management
00:33:24 Observing security risks in the wild
00:37:54 Testing risk mitigation in the lab
00:42:44 What we learned so far
00:48:08 Models and knowledge of human behavior
00:56:27 Interaction categories
00:59:00 Anatomy of an effective warning
01:04:39 Risk analysis and documentation
01:28:40 Current (not new) communication protocol
02:09:34 Recap

A

You're, just recording, there's.

B

A one second.

C

D

D

So in here, what about my own experience? We scale the security company so essentially yeah, as I told we were talking before.

E

D

Types of security checks for security, expertise in dieter, 0.56 Journal, when you have like audits, but you can't rely only on all this because, as we like to Adam they're like very slow while they are like chicken.

F

D

That software changes so much so it might be already outdated, so yeah, so we need to have some internal knowledge as well. So this is one of the ways of concepts terminology so.

F

This is all about some foundations.

D

Of security, it's about the movie and some basic mistakes, and essentially.

E

D

A avoidable: it's not about yeah.

E

D

Beauty Jenkins's yeah to religion.

E

Some baseline, secure.

D

Product that doesn't leak some sensitive information. Well, it shouldn't leak and it's.

E

D

Of where you can simple framework that doesn't really dependent on the details.

F

D

Which kind of threat modeling we use or which kind of risk assessments yeah.

G

And it's all based on.

D

My own experience in my own.

D

E

The framework itself.

H

D

Like it's very simple, that's a public should also it's a again: it's a possum, while security tests and annual security, it's being shared between the security team or security person inside a company and something that's called security champions should check with each other and security team. In there it's more.

F

Provides like guidance and.

D

Leadership than the extra heavy lifting and beauty team will make sure you do the job.

D

D

B

D

I'm, just there is some separation because to.

E

F

D

And bounced to the it's not want you I'll.

B

Fill this diagram.

D

First is who they are? Essentially, we know this in a second, it might be literally anyone, but it might.

E

Be the developers with might be Chris.

D

D

Whatever the important part that they are insider.

E

D

Some projects in some areas, so they know this product and project very well from the inside- it's not it. This is a difference between are all digital agency. That knows a lot about security but kind a little about the product. So.

F

These people know a lot.

D

About the product or a project, so they're it's how they know the source for the other components or than all the designs, but they might not know as much about security editors. They are interested in in security, so there. So that gives us some kind of ability to either be sure that okay, I think and I'm sure that this change is not affecting our security in any way right or if they're, not sure they can always ask they're escalating to the security team in in.

H

D

Of if they are not sure and of course not only that, but they also actually actively participate in it spent modeling call the security decision like everything.

F

That's company.

D

Does within the security process like any security process, they actually participate in and they're kind of who might call them potentially wants to try to make decisions, and then this decision gets over viewed by the security like to import. Maybe a security console security person itself. One important thing about this, so they should be volunteers, so it's a volunteer enrolled within the project or so it's someone who is interested. It's not it's not enough just to comment so you'll.

E

D

Check I assign.

E

D

E

D

Works very badly, so it's yeah! So there's that.

D

We have project bodies, project, eight and under the project a we have been saying three teams, so each of the team should have the champion, for instance, so they might be deep-fried some idea. So in here it might be a developer here. It might be a little a product manager who is interested in security and they are either can escalate its back to the team.

D

All they can stamp on approval.

F

D

Some of the features.

F

It might be designed to show.

D

So now a little bit about yeah. Why do we need them yeah, so, first of all, first and.

E

Foremost, the thing that's obvious.

D

If so visits it not even written, so it's super hard to hire enough security engineers for all the project and all the teams. It's almost.

I

D

I

What we need to do to decentralize.

D

This knowledge to educate our own, like people who are interested in that in security, basics and security analysis. And then we also.

E

By doing that, we.

D

Are integrating security within the working process because there's someone who is interested someone who's, making their current security States a mongoose participate and all of this activity or someone who's.

F

D

About security and thinking so it's old builds a security culture and what's good about this particular framework,.

D

Flexible and simple, that's I mean.

D

G

Clearly they raised it as a reply and in this yeah.

D

It's it's like. If someone is interested in security, they are more or less race that ok, I wanna have this to try to be in a security champion. That's.

E

H

D

Not only raise the issues when the process is going, but also do some bigger things like water fully stuff like threat, modeling.

G

And I want to race this and they raise it. Oh my oh, my I.

D

Mean you get always of.

G

Course I mean that is a delegation to somebody.

G

D

They have this mindset.

E

D

Person so like, if everyone which way everyone is responsible for security, responsible.

H

D

But still it's just centralized around each team has its own. So if you yeah it might be a swarm worldwide security champion for swarm. Yes,.

B

D

So how to implement this? There is a playbook. It's only.

D

Six steps about implementation details for this I, don't try to read it. I'll show them one by one because time. The first thing you need to do obviously is to just.

I

Identify which teams and.

D

Projects which is pretty simple in our case and also.

F

D

Identify to know technologies, and it might be the same, not team, put swarms as well, it works the same way essentially, and then we was makes it flexible. We also think that we want to define the role of security checker. What do you think that it might help us with, for instance,.

F

If you already have a lot of security.

D

People in the company, the role of security champions, might be slightly smaller, less responsibility. We.

F

Don't have security.

D

I

Independent will they.

D

Do security review, or it.

E

F

E

D

E

D

Like this, because we didn't never again, it's good team boy look huge. So we can.

D

A

Means that yes, security, champions.

D

Have more responsibilities, if you have just a small team.

J

And you already have.

D

Like, for instance, if you.

F

Are already doing.

D

Like a security product that does in startups that's the security product that sacrifice people and like three.

F

Of them are security experts.

D

Then maybe so then yeah you try to define what we probably want to define here: security goals, maybe for the company for the teams like that.

E

Which direction.

D

Wanna go with security, so.

E

I understand where we are. We.

D

Want to go and then we also need to actually write down there and document what security champion is doing and college will it help move it from point A to point B.

D

Then yeah first one.

E

Probably we don't need it, we.

D

Just formulas, so all the points.

F

Sometimes you need.

D

To get management understands that security is a thing.

D

Yeah, so it's not for us, but then we need to somehow identify people interested in security in the team I mean. Obviously all people who are here are interested, but also we might want to have like a bigger I know. Maybe a polio or something like this, so people who may be interested raise their hand. Then we need to officially nominate- and it's like, we need to be very, very clear that that's a cruel. It's not that I don't know.

F

My solo promotion to.

D

Be security champion. That is just a role you are taken and you might, if you don't like it, you might just say: oh yeah I like doing that anymore. Maybe we need to redo that again and yeah. That's important too, to be a.

F

Video, so that's what I.

D

Like salt, like being burned by a security camera finger, it's when.

E

D

Was not presented like it was more presented like okay, you are kind of important to a security camera and then the person hated it, but still he was like okay.

E

It's not, everyone can actually.

D

Do security because, as I told it, because there are the closest analogy to the security engineer in the company like like that is a commercial airline pilot which you think that it's a pretty cool job, which it looks, fancy flying and stuff within.

F

Reality is like a bazillion of checklists.

D

That you can't have to pass like every day like multiple times a day, just check the check. This check this so the security stuff with the Box related to this. So it's kinda, it's both tweaking fairly boring. So that's.

E

Why ia needs.

D

To be able to maybe.

E

Even like to rotate.

B

D

Some person gets very tired of this yeah.

D

The next thing is to set up a.

E

F

D

Not a service type Channel, maybe it's our mailing list and some kind of a separate thing only between the security chapters where they discuss I, don't know something like train, maybe trainings and things so somehow there is for them to talk quite cross team and race, because sometimes security in there might be a point of contact if another.

F

D

I, don't know, let's say in artist the culture team might ask the go team, so they they have something. Some.

E

D

Inside the goat won't be so he.

D

D

On that, so what's also useful, since security champions are not coming from the security background, usually it's important to be security in knowledge base and best practices, so basically educate. This. Some had some place to read up about basics of security here and there have Chile's. Maybe one of the England security champions or Duty team might do is actually try to help preparing some checklist s secret for our application, not like generic like over-the-top something, but what tailored specifically for our application and then.

F

Of course, they.

D

Should have an context or century is QT engineers, technical person and the chapters themselves, and now the sixth step is one of the most important one because yeah it's it's a pretty, might be very boring job. So we need to maintain interest somehow with it and what we found useful was do some workshops send to some trainings to meet ups. Things like that. So essentially, what's usually the security engineer want to go to so said,.

F

You treat them.

E

Other than security, linear that you want.

D

To also educate grow one more cool things. It's that's used in my share recent news till.

E

They might be I mean.

D

Actually, like finding vulnerabilities, it's pretty boring, but when you find it and read about someone who found some tricky.

F

D

That might be very, very exciting, so it might be interesting for them to actually read up okay. This news this week, news app.

F

D

And one more important is that who will important to send some, like, maybe on a monthly schedule, send some updates to everyone, the tailgate huge champions there helped to identify these reefs for help to it's there, so they need to be recognized. So it's also sort of what's that paid for this and.

D

E

The things that are told and.

D

I can show the example.

G

Pick it off their visits, yeah.

D

So there's an example: so we are security check into some folks came and she so.

E

What does she do like engineer on the process.

D

E

Instance, one day service, like the new feature.

D

Is being planned, she participated in threat modeling together with the security team. Actually, she does they secured trying to do threat modeling and then send the documents with their ideas for their new to the security team and then, when threats identified and if actual successes, the risks to find out. These are high severity of spirit. This again gets overviews and it's revealed by this beauty to stealth and also.

F

D

May might react and on board with like okay, these risks are there we saw I can progress things. We decided not to do.

B

Anything about it is.

D

Already mitigated.

B

D

Decided to keep our last until next version, so something like that on board with existing lists. So when the features start development, some basic security review of those tasks which might be important so once a security implication of just implemented without implementation, we want to.

F

Do like a trouble passport thing.

D

Called a security implication of.

D

E

Also, the API itself.

D

So that we like a proper.

E

I don't know if.

D

In crypto, we need to have a constant time, comparing whites, co2.

E

My n new risks.

D

That I mean start change all the time and teams, especially what we decided to do.

C

That it'll be done for Queen set to tweak.

D

Itself also new list will appear, then choose owe pana pushes the team a chromatic, a.

B

But we also miss outstanding.

D

Greeks is a pretty high severity. Let's this week also work on that designs yeah. She might participate in some time in.

E

There is a design review.

D

D

B

In this design, it's very easy.

D

H

The performance.

D

Of course, she goes like to some security training.

D

E

If she's already know course of.

D

My visa web security conference or demo.

D

E

She also receives the letter.

D

The life of one security champion where they want.

I

Interest in the kitchen I think that maybe it generalizes right now will.

G

Be a pretty good mix of people here know one thing.

I

I notice is set in terms of.

G

Culture saw like people who.

I

Already go to other sort.

G

Of affair meetups and consumes anti-material.

I

They more likely.

G

To keep Union so.

I

G

The people who go to it, conferences till you go to like a lot of economic.

I

G

I

At my not ever.

G

I

G

I

Be exposed to certain concepts around like privacy or yeah security.

G

Downtime and that's it's important because it's like a sink, so people naturally gravitate to whoops. If you will be starting.

G

I

A

I

I'm saying mostly I'm just saying.

E

That it's something.

D

You might change with like okay.

J

B

D

G

D

Details of experiments with the details. We want one people smoke, people, some people might just gravitate.

E

D

Security and gonna just keep them yeah.

E

D

Service names having more questions.

D

D

I mean should be crosswords.

D

The first one is.

E

Maintenance there.

D

C

We have zero preparation together.

E

C

Much a secret, but we wanna talk to you about how you wicks are, can contribute to risk management and like in general, we would see as being that put here, as in last minute anything analyzing and documenting user risks and used errors to get one thing out of the way like straight from the start. I am very firmly using use. Air is better than using various whole scene of risk management. I learned.

E

That it's it's.

C

C

Yeah, it's usually not the users mistake it's something for C, so we want to talk about a human note in sentinels again might contribute to that. What we learn so far has come up in testing potential.

C

E

Existing mental models and.

C

People who check in early get to know as well a little bit different attitude, what's more closely related to risk management and usability engineering type of aspects that are not necessarily research, but they are.

G

Yeah so I mean generally, we see ourselves as being a sort of serving public gavin's roles of being on the front lines, and thanks of Washington people use the product America product that we kind.

I

G

That propagate or the often we studies where we say okay Lee, is.

E

This a user error that we've seen.

G

Is it actually something that is not like a product like a result, some time to a misunderstanding of the promised rank, YouTube and the user? Just doesn't really they don't really understand, maybe the possible risk that they're serving copy remember exhibiting. So we see we trying to make one thing that we can do this crime have a qualified way of saying okay. This is this is a risk like when we're testing something. This is like some possible target application that someone might have an error within that. That's that's a security risk and.

B

G

Testing it and making sure that we tested we tested.

G

Some of these things that we do they sometimes we've seasoned some of these risks in a while different products.

A

Within our off.

G

So this one example firm already, but there there is definitely a DS examples where from pool of have a misunderstanding of what the program is trying to convey, but we're going to actually have to.

E

Do or how they interpret.

G

As their cover them in tomorrow's just what I've just said so.

E

G

It's one that I think it should've been yada interesting example from I. Think from the financial world is yeah.

I

E

G

Means I never have to pay.

G

That is away with you.

C

Kids, that their section people think that if they borrow money, do never have to give it back. So this was like a risk discovery.

C

One was related to an expanded understanding.

E

Of what the risk.

C

Was so this is related to medical devices, medical device, testings errors and potential safety risks. In this example, imagine a baby.

C

And they use photos, return. The pool and tennis that you put up around the body parts Nikita, make sense signals and in order to make sure that children better.

C

Take strength of the antenna those are labeled saying like this is safe for a kid.

C

Walk to the other side of the room pick up a different soil that wasn't labeled with this is not safe for a kid. So this is.

G

I mean this is I, think testing from status and also just generally just federal experience in the industry as well as these.

F

Families constant.

G

Reuse right like so, we see this all the time that people- don't they don't want to reuse. So they don't want to the evening password every single for every single application that they're using and they.

I

E

G

Heard of a password manager- or they don't know they don't know where they don't know, information about a positive manager so.

E

What we do is like the status of.

G

Regular, we just one password, we use it all vision, location. This is the classics.

G

This is something that we, you can think about it. How? How can we help users with actually creating evening passwords every time so that they don't have to go through the process.

G

And then this second of the last one is actually one that I think we have you, because.

F

I feel a guy I've.

G

Seen this interesting, where people have specifically reference to signing phrase as a form of to possible two-factor authentication, which is also a security risk as I understand, so that's so.

I

They think that.

F

You know like either.

G

The the emojis.

H

G

Do the testing or be the three word password is some way in which you're supposed to be authenticate like, like maybe unthinkable, Authenticator app with you so.

C

E

C

Sort of difficulty that people are used to what they've learned from banking app so as soon as they use something that relates to assets which things you own to picture identification is known. And if you think you understand what you're looking at.

C

D

To summarize these.

C

Are like risk identification examples? What we can also do is best mitigations and see whether they work or not, borrowing some things here of how it works, like a medical device, testing the differences compared to how we test now that this is like in an extremely controlled environment. So the way we've been testing how it's like quite informal actually to understand the dynamics between people adding each other rather sitting next to each other in the chair, but that introduces a lot of noise and we don't control exactly what happens.

C

If we really want to know if a mitigation that we bill to like keep people safe works, we have to use a lot more controlled environments.

C

Another thing that's done, even with my testing in sets like Richards senses, that you have very elaborate test scripts, that categorizes tasks that you can do at the moment. We they're just tasks to us they're like transfer someone among you, request someone we don't categorize what type of test that is in this testing environment they're, usually categorized as these.

D

Are essential tasks.

C

This is something someone has to be able to do. These are frequently used so sending a text message.

C

It's a separate.

D

C

Safety related, which is where dr. risk I go. This might be, and I'm like recognizing or signing trades might be in this case, like a safety, really that's that context. It usually includes also training materials. If in some way we say we will be educating people through videos on YouTube, we would need to include that, otherwise we will never know it's the whole mitigation.

C

We've simulated that context, so people are stressed for time. Usually they have limited attention. They use tools next to what we're providing them with, so they might switch between apps, while in our test environment we're asking asking them to status and that's it, but that's not reality. So if you.

D

Want to know if.

C

Like risk mitigation, specific promise, that means, for example, giving them an extra task. Can you still create an account or make a transaction while you're also coming in number of times your CNX on the screen.

C

Testing warnings and other messages are also. You can do that. So what we test now is pretty much a happy flow and we're still learning with every session there sections on Thursday and Friday, but we're still learning would guess the EPI flow. But if we want to understand the risk mitigations word, we have to start testing that warning well,.

C

Success criteria, if we want to be able to say assign fix works for people know how to back up their recovery phrase and why it's important. We need to start creating.

F

C

Of these are things that, to us indicate that people intercept what's going on so as soon as they mentioned recovery phrase or get back get access to my accounts work. So we need to.

C

So in terms of analyzing data, I think we've been using like a template which tasks are easy to do.

C

This is a classification that says like successful your close ball in testing or risk. Usually, if close call, it's only one person that did not manage to do something.

C

That's fine, but for high-risk situation, and what, if that person would be transferring assets in this situation, then it's important for us to also look at the close call. Yeah.

G

So there's a plugin, that's a good example of maybe, where you adjust expectations about how successful.

G

We can be eighty percent ready to do the happy flow sometimes, but for a high-risk, secure situations like BB has better percent correct for anyone interested yeah.

C

G

C

You know it's just that you usually actually yeah.

C

E

So again, some more examples of what.

G

We see the specific usage usage from testing and what we've learned so far, so yeah people will take screenshots and Eddie.

I

D

You know true just.

G

For status, I think it's also true for romantic build using other apps in the blockchain space. This is definitely missing than this conference. That I went to Prague and then people need their assets in exchange as well, since they they don't, really realize the satirists in general, of leaving assets in exchange. At this point, we think there's a long similarly they're combining with other people. So this came about on testing for both of us at Berlin, I. Think where people when we ask them about how they stuff their wallet, they.

D

E

Said I have no idea like.

G

I, like I, gave them it's with a scale.

E

Like I gave my Fiat or I gave Dave.

G

Permission to my friend to set up an account for me: I have login access to this account. In some cases not it was not very clear, but but basically they Sarah have.

F

G

Sexual relationship, where they're like a crypto pool of money,.

G

E

On your attitude towards security, let me like that. Can.

G

Be a really high secure since for some people, obviously it's not. They didn't see that as a superior, just compensating the other thing is a venture for yacht. People are familiar with tooth backdrop, education and so they're, they're kind of applying that mental model of a particular friend went to to book for free they're, seeing these new phrases or these new words with these new security phrases, yeah and then people will lose you're done with all of it done.

E

Like very quick jump to is.

G

I

A way to protect.

G

The screenshots.

D

B

Yeah for that one system, you can detect post fact right right. Yes,.

J

E

B

Compromise as a security risk freak more here.

C

Because it's very gradual, it's not like take screenshots left, let's block it or make sure they can't people are gonna, find a way.

G

So you have five bucks whatever, like ten.

I

Grand or whatever, then there's.

B

Gonna be serious later so maybe maybe.

E

Smell of having like gravel.

G

You exploit associates.

E

A level it's like me and.

I

You all at them do.

G

Disfavor, that would be my way because it wouldn't be wouldn't match the psychology of individual.

G

People don't care if I was like that's a psychological truth. You know think it around that so issues.

F

Regarding the photo, it's good set to revolve to digital and we don't have to send the the role to thank you.

C

There's actually a design I'm, not sure if it's in a minute of a warning to back up your teacher grades, that only we.

C

D

C

I'm amazing now there's.

E

C

That has to come up about maybe spreading the word so four different screens so that at least it's not about one screenshot. If that would help- and something could've told me yesterday was that who was talking to participants who actually gave printed copies of his see trace to family members across the city, so he was safe of losing it and he didn't keep it digital, which I thought was quite an interesting solution because we're all about like don't share it with anyone like decode, and but this person actually created a lot.

D

Or something it's much more safe than storing them digitally in any way, so it just feels people are usually much better at knowing that only this paper is super important, so I need to keep this. Don't.

E

D

Lose your passport, like every people, tend to lose their like files and.

C

Something I complain and I.

C

Got off the bus and I realized my laptop on the plane, and this was actually.

C

Bringing my stuff yeah system, one, is what we do like day-to-day coffee or if I check is my phone still there or if I'm typing, actually not if I'm typing, like they're packing up my stuff while I'm typing, it's all like the system, one step then kind of goes on autopilot and the system two is everything that they're, paying close attention to I'm, usually in getting people to pay attention to situations is about getting them to assistant, to state to somehow trigger this attention.

G

And this is I mean that's a good like what actually the model the C phrase is people focusing I can use your system to thinking to really focus on getting this thing down and thinking about where this.

C

How we do that now it's to actually start a process and under process, so in the designs that we know you start to back up your grazing says step one two, three go so again. If you actually sit down to it right.

G

C

I mean this one. You mentioned your last words by.

E

C

As soon as you feel safe because you enter class word feel safe, so you feel like you're done, it's kinda like going into your car and driving the faster. We should wear a seatbelt, so it's definite suppose people I can't imagine that maybe just abusing status can be enough to make people feel safe. If we promote ourselves.

C

Yeah, the vacation is just about like getting getting used to certain veterans. What we've seen like, if there's a text, fueled right below a text text label, you might imagine that you need to copy that text into the field. Just because that's what you've been used to so any pattern that we see another answer: if we copy them to status, people are going to have an expectation of how it's used.

G

C

Like educating just.

C

We know that training, people in context or in context usually is remembered a lot more effectively. So what we tend to do now is we? If a warning in the beginning, you should back up your seat case.

C

We might warn people about potential scams, sign increase again. We might tell people during the onboarding wallet that you need.

E

C

Resigning price for certain situations, but we don't actually put people in that situation, so we asked them to remember this. Is your time increase check so it looks like, but then we don't test in a situation where they might get a different signing face.

C

Demo moves like that.

A

C

Want to tell them something: I'm not going to care about the security I'm going to.

C

Another one: here's in some of the tasks that we have so using when.

D

Only one of them, but.

C

Some of the tests are very goal-oriented. People want to make a transaction. The worst thing you can do mitigation is.

C

Any information we want to provide about security, educating contacts, but then actually don't it's run with messages and warnings, while they're trying to obtain the goal, because.

D

They're just gonna.

C

Ignore it and continue.

C

I guess this one: we we talk about confirmation is law, make sure you feel like you've, already found something change. Blindness.

C

There's a video of the guy in a monkey suit change blindness that also has the status.

D

Trying to do something in there like is one that, because you want to write notes and then they throw an agreement like gdpr agreements in your face and there's a huge pattern: okay, I agree to everything and.

F

You just press.

D

That, because you want to taken off.

D

G

A nice sort of counter mitigation strategy, it's America's, nice and sexually. There.

F

G

Apps that will connect scrolling for the war like this or gonna like if you, basically, if you accept that too quickly, it'll say no.

E

G

See you knowing how effective.

C

That actually is.

G

C

This is also but might be, jumping ahead a little bit. Why I think we should be very careful using.

E

Modal dialogues.

C

Because they're, the ones that like interrupt that process Nomos, do you want to reach your goal? So it's in your face. If you have to do something.

I

To get rid of it and as.

D

G

J

G

D

I

C

At a point, left-aligned makes it makes a big difference. I mean overseas I'm, not entirely sure why, but it has been studied.

C

Sentences long, hence all right, you're doing it makes sense. A signal whoo I, put here like a Tempe check.

C

Easiest for me to see is his warning on a worker not expected see it at a distance at blends. Then it's gotta work anything else. Just too dense, too much information.

C

Yeah the other version of either sex.

G

With a 14 inch.

G

C

C

So once you actually.

B

We could potentially, we could reach.

B

D

B

E

B

A security refresh and now actually here's.

E

B

B

Straight away right, so then we can go and we don't tell them.

D

B

Later on, if we see this bunch of money be like hey by the way too discreet first time.

C

G

Is a good point about what would keep election do? First,.

A

E

G

Like can I actually talk to someone or can actually.

C

I think, like I'm.

D

C

Sure we'll have an issue there, because before used to.

C

As in, what's this n words and is, is there a center of using.

C

Sia, but not too often,.

E

C

G

C

Was everyone on energy.

J

J

An hour but I'm going to do next, like four before got some stuff so start with the motivation. So initially.

J

Refactoring the communication with Ian, because we wanted to so the first goal- was to fix because go side which reduced whisper v6 with green filters, and we wanted to see using multiple topics or on the chat will.

J

Another thing is because we are always trying to reduce the amount of dependence that we have on TSI, because we have a lot of them. It's complicated.

J

We want to encryption libraries from so that was another motivation, so these two are done in the current version of the we wanted to ensure a better separation of concern in the campus, because previously you could find a lot of things related to whisper in other areas of the code, such as the chat itself and in order to be able to eventually replace whisper or just for with engineering practices. We decided to probably.

D

J

That so everything is in transport namespaces, so that's also, and we wanted to refactor the code base to refactor preferable to the on fan base standards. So we've really past year. We have spent a lot of time making sure events are done in a functional way without procedural imperative code, which is easy to select it's easy to test and more in more with in refrain guidelines or we find apps, and so that we've done as well and we've reduced the number of we wanted to reduce the number of events found for each recent message.

J

That was would be problem that whenever we would receive a hundred message that would be like 400 events.

J

The app would be much less responsive, give a question. So that's also something that has been improved. Even recent changed by Roman.

J

We actually have only one event for for many cities, and then we also important knowledge to documentation before the documentation was very small, related to the message type that we have and the person that made the at left status for for a while. So basically, nobody really own their own and only people would make patches here and there to fix it back. But there was no real.

G

Knowledge of oh, it was working.

G

J

Documentation explaining it works where well, what is with where he leaves what it's doing, what trips on we're using, so that there was only one weekly page and it actually wasn't representing exactly what was happening for me, because some stuff at changed since then, and.

J

Still can't really says we have closure readable code, not, but it still could be improved, but I will talk about that after, but yeah.

J

And yeah we'll start this ID to use a different encoding format for interoperability, but also something less nervous to save on table size, because it's pretty firm on whisper. So.

E

J

The motivation.

J

So the Ducks are in the wiki and probably where is not much.

I

J

I'm gonna quickly sure I.

J

Think we can say that at the moment we completely zap to chat. So it's really just about one to one shot. A little recess and I mean there's probably no need to go into details at the moment, but that's the message type that are supported in their current beta.

J

So there is one to create a new contact key one for contact, request, contact, request, confirmation for contact updates, that's a bit the info below contact, then a message which can be either a text message or comment and then seen research which is sent when the user sees the message. So that's the current supporting messages for one point. One chat and.

C

J

When you, when the message is shown on someone on the recipient screen you it send the same message, but that's actually a feature that was babied a lot because in society consider that it's like something we can. We could do without it because really tells the person has seen my message.

J

Privacy is not a very nice feature, but people.

F

Are addicted to it notice.

F

It's almost no work in terms of doesn't bring anything I.

C

J

Even what Siqueiros you to judge me that and then the downside, is you don't see, other people's messages.

G

J

Transmission, there is no retransmission it's based on space like if you shall not connected, then it needs on the main server. So when you connect- and so I will talk about it later, like we've been thinking about ways to do it, but first if the.

D

Idea of sending acknowledgments.

J

As it brings a lot of problems, because the act is the person is not there, only acknowledgement and also acknowledgements are like seeing messages. They they give give away a lot of information and they increase your plate on network. So one proposal was some kind of heartbeat where over long period of time there is a heartbeat and it also helps figuring out when someone recovered an account, so he loves to switch.

J

There is an idea.

J

E

J

J

So far so, and it's included in transits, which is closure already know it's- it originates from closure community. It's it's like edn that is encoded in JSON, so there is readers and writers or for other languages, but are we talked about it lately.

J

J

J

So so that's that's.

J

I

That's something that.

J

From the previous, including so far, is if you take message before there was a lot of so when you have a whisper whisper message, so the communication, but not whisper itself, but but a whisper mystic message as within its envelope, things already and it's a metal contact, and that is what the communication protocol is using.

J

So that's that's the part that we are including. So it's like these concerns, like.

I

J

Is within the the whisper message and the so it's kind of like whisper transports, the the message and then it's delivered by with three filters: the content is delivered and then it has to be decoded. So it's encoded for by the sender and decoded by the receiver. But when we talk about cooling in that case, it's not encryption. It's about putting data in a format that can be sent over the network where's in a computer when it's in memory it can be objects or whether it's abstract, and that will you serialize it.

J

You know format that is, that can be read and other confuse. It's.

J

Yeah, so basically it's text text with Jaylin we it's Jaidyn actually I can so I can show.

E

An example, but.

J

That would be the the message, a message when I say so. This is what it looks like to say hi to someone. So this is the content. This is message type.

J

The message type, the content, type, the clock value and the timestamp, and these are the only thing that we need in the envelope. This is the message type of the communication protocol, and this is because it can also be console message or something so we use them minimal amount of information, because before in the initial version of the program, the user for from group chat first ins- the user was also sent within the packet within the envelope here, and it's no with to do because whisper envelope already contains the the the signature of the sender.

J

So when you want to be sure that someone center sends a message, that's where you want to look because it's it's a sign.

J

It's a sign message where it's easy, I can say: I'm I can say: I'm, Jared, I uses public Ian, and then people think its job you'll explore as the kind of start record we have, and we really focused on the the information that is not available somewhere else.

G

J

Yeah, actually there was is problem.

I

H

We could remove it.

H

J

Our concern was actually about retransmission if we implemented with transmission in the future that that you need to send the actual timestamp of the transmitted timestamp and.

F

J

Whisper envelope contained there, we transmit time some.

G

I

G

I

If you get generated.

J

Participation, you cannot say you cannot add anything to it, because it's a record.

J

Well, you can in the not in that kind of message, because it's all strings.

B

H

J

You cannot add a new field because it's a report yeah it has a reader and so well. The thing is you you could do that, but then you would have you would you would have errors for from different versions of the app? So what you want to do, if you have either fill you makes 5 and 5s in a pencil and then that's why I will explain it for upgrades, but yeah it's it's a regard to its. It cannot be changed in size.

B

J

Okay, if it was before beta.

H

B

J

J

If there is more elements, the video will reversed when our.

G

G

I

Need to sign a petition on that I.

J

Mean that's the readers.

J

There is instructions to new movies.

J

So the reason I'm saying it will take the five elements and it will create a process for message. It will take the array of five elements. It will put them like this. So if you add an element- and it's not present.

J

It might be Leonia, maybe it will put a new very.

I

Few but but the thing.

J

Is the other one yeah we can test it later, but.

E

It's just not a good thing, because.

H

J

If you change the protocol, you should create a new when you type so that it's a it can be managed.

I

J

J

Application why.

G

We can aim for stopping for singing with coordination in a socket for system status, for acceptance, criteria and.

A

E

Need to figure out, but this is.

G

Still so soon as it's not meant for people who each team and the DSL, we need to figure out who can plan for covering a champion, but all service, starting from sometime, like having accessibility, can.

F

I

F

So you only are able to merge a PRF. You sign specifically on the poll requests check all the boxes. This requires this does not require documentation change. So you check that.

J

Another including that with actual steam s and then the documentation, she's finished.

J

A

More questions.

F

J

What do you mean like? Because it's a message, type that we don't know or.

J

Because it's supposed to be no intermediaries, so besides the person that sends the message, but is gonna, tell you so that's why we had this bit proposal where you periodically exchange a message that tells you the the counter the clock where you're at in terms of messages. So the idea is that, even if you miss one of the circuit at some point, you will receive one so always at some point.

J

It's just ignored.

A

A

Going to be this unfortunate situation.

G

A

Maybe wouldn't.

G

Make sense to me maybe.

I

A

E

I

Good experimental.

A

Features and then later on.

A

I

One deliverable we could have which would open up this dialogue is to have as a goal that we're gonna push. I'm gonna be a Pete. You see, we could get some trade equalized right. So the next version protocol we figure out what we need them to develop either one I mean the.

G

Ap limiting so discussion.

I

Limits Oskaloosa TV :, whatever we.

I

Out there or whatever.

J

I

J

And so the thing is that there is no forward compatibility, it's not possible to know in advance how to dig deeper message. Study is not known so one so either we I don't even know if the pro colleague, Nakia format existed, solve this problem, but one way to mitigate it is to release updates like release the reception part of the updating in over in in a version and sending part in the. There is already.

J

A

J

Yeah so then another witnesses they discover a little bit and it's a tough one, because the idea of the discovery topic was that everybody's following it. So it's not possible to and to establish contact request. So it's not possible to know who is establishing protect to even narrow down a group of people direction. Do you protect requests and then random topic is picked for the conversation, actual conversation and so one. But the problem is that with a single known topic, then it's easy to spam it and to increase drastically the bandwidth that is consumed idea.

J

So one solution is to Sharlee and one consequence is that you have less you again. You reduce the the darkness because it reused to now.

F

Resume a possibility.

J

Of who is talking to.

F

J

It's like because, instead of sending to one single topic that everyone follows suddenly you will send contact request to like a subset of addresses and then, if what you're interested in is, is X communicating with Y, then the probably you go from the probability.

I

J

You go from. There is like no chance to know because everybody 100 percent of the addresses are using this stupid and suddenly there is only 1% chance that an address is doing this topic. So.

I

Each partition.

J

Yeah and that's the the problem in the whisper approach to dark routing, but maybe there is no other, but it's basically by wasting a lot of bandwidth, and so the question is: can we do that without doing this, because on mobile, it's not really an option.

J

J

No, but it was discussed. Maybe it was not necessary to use metric and frickin. We did it because we were, we were it's supposed to be faster, but probably might be negligible or for the whole time that it takes to process the message and it makes it hard to to work with recovered accounts, because then the symmetric key is lost for one of the participants, but yeah. That's that's a trade-off and also it requires more secret because with the Cobie cubic just but the thing is that's going to change a lot in the future.

J

We implementable ratchet and all these things it's no certainly is worth changing, just broadly signaling and including so we talked about it already quite a lot and then you know when we were talking about other implementations. There is this problem with message IDs, but they are. They are not really. You can't really find them outside of crude.

J

So that's we need to change. We didn't thought about it at the point, but it's it's a lot. It's very CAJ of serialization of an object, not obvious that or other language can do that and then for future developments. There is the actual materials that I was talking about, which cost bandwidth and limits the and increases your decreases. Your anonymity, potentially the Irbid protocol, can be a partial solution to that, or maybe something completely different, and there is media sharing. That is requested lots, but it's not feasible with the whisper itself.

J

So it requires, for instance, something like xform.

J

There is no formal definition of the protocol, which doesn't really exist, especially since it's made through its using a transit as some kind of interface, a transit definition and finally might be interesting to have a testing framework, that's something with not achieved so far, but a way to make two instances that we have to communicate without having to run an emulator so with docker to to test scenarios and test the protocol. In various scenarios it discussed to pick about the hack bridge where I describe the idea, and that's that's it.

J

There are more questions.

C

C

So bigger plan tell me what you think: Kate you're gonna.

C

Fill us in with some more information about certain bowling with all these issues we have, we said earlier. We need to somehow prioritize.

E

C

Decide what we want to focus on to face one way we can do that is creative model diagram and plots those issues as to where are they and another? One is to just basically create a list.

C

Ordinance, we can also do both so that we have some context about where these issues occur, kind of like sort of spread our chances so that we focus on maybe some of the issues on the chance, but also some issues that might occur at wallet. This is where don't come enough background modeling after we've done then, and that's why I wanted to pull up some slice as well to share document issues and I know we all really seem to enjoy heck MD. So this is on paper.

C

It doesn't have to be on paper, it's more about the components of it that you describe to walk through, so you don't really have to follow discs, but there's a few things that I want to point out that if we want to get back to this later is really one.

E

C

Breakouts topic number, so the first part of the list is a really number two at the wall of shame.

C

Week number so at least we know what we're talking about, give it a unique idea, because each individual issue might have some components to it that when you start talking, you realize, oh, that actually these are different things so pick a topic from the list, but give it a unique ID probability and superior I think might be might be difficult might be a little bit fuzzy they're, not black and whites, but it is good to somehow okay.

C

You think this is like a high likely situation to occur, and maybe it's not that likely to occur, but when it does, it would be.

F

C

Is an indication I.

F

C

If she needed worst-case scenario, all these for that and like actually calculate maybe for something would be I think that kind of goes beyond.

E

C

C

Access in place with security, champions and eventually because of today, I.

E

C

For now, it's justification.

C

For each of the issues again, you don't have to fill those out exactly. There are three components to maybe keep in mind. One is the events of something happening. So what is the issue and I think those are some of the things that we have listed out, so it could just be a copy of this is the issue we just write.

C

The conditions of when does this take place up, for example, it might only take place in Egypt under any circumstance, and then the last one I think we might require a bit more on thinking as to we haven't discussed it much. But what is the consequence? Why is it a problem for us? So yes scanning might occur. Why is that a problem like? What exactly is the effects gotta be there's so much.

C

No tricks into buying something selling something.

C

All right, this is for once we've like really thoroughly thought through like what. What is the issue and why is it a problem when we talk about mitigations and again, it doesn't have to be exactly this list, but there are different types of mitigations and when I say mitigation I, like generally tend to like you say that combine all of them into one word, but there's actually different different aspects to it. So one is like how do we listen to understand if something is going on if someone is being stanfeld like what.

E

C

Of things can we put in place to monitor if something is going on? How can we prevent it, which is very different from how we mitigate it once it happens, of mitigating maybe put a maximum limit on while an exchange is something like that for fencing is like actually maybe like blocking certain activities, it's a very different side, and when something has happened, how do we recover from it so say, you're going to be blocked somewhere or we're gonna be thrown out of the play, store or hungry respond to it.

C

So those are elements to think about, and there might be more I, don't know from existing frameworks or what other, but.

E

C

Are something into my for me and after that's done for each of those mitigations I know, there's a rationale behind it. I know that in the discussion you might discuss five different solutions of preventing an issue to occur, and you select only one to document, because you feel somehow that that is the best one. Other ones maybe might be ranked out, because we just simply don't want to go there.

C

Don't want to do that and I think those are the ones that are important to capture previous output that we wanted of this meeting of principles that we can go back to when we are gonna find new issues. So those are very important for the future.

C

A quick, a sample price to enable a particular status value that are still in progress. Regal always for me, will never do district dance. But, oh yes,.

G

Yes, yeah, oh, is like ideal future, but then we have no mr. packer there right now. So we do do we shut down. Okay, we doing.

I

G

In three years so do we do it f10 deficit, soon, Q minus K, from 1 to 5, where one is like pull the plug? We're not gonna. Do a big 5 this we can do didn't three years yeah.

G

C

It sounds like because I put like this principle will be challenged when.

C

G

G

E

Was like yeah I, don't know.

G

Fix our broken, so if, when I actually saw it before launching.

I

Then we have to.

G

Make that extremely explicit after just in India were like we're? Not, we don't accept this.

G

C

Can also do is and flecked at one step.

C

So done with all those lists of issues, I think it's helpful to kind of organize them, so I don't need at least five minutes to copy-paste some items and give them a unique number.

D

A

Have that hard limit.

D

We want one before the security audit is complete. That's definitely it's it's not before.

D

It might be later later.

I

G

I

The better, but it's like it's probably nothing directly, a few meters. We.

G

Have a lot of stuff when doing quality when I had new features and benefits users etc. But then we also happens to completely broken systems. They compared to what we say, least at 40.

I

G

Do you want it like, like knows whatever, and you.

I

Want to be serious about that. That means me, which has been each end of their efforts.

G

On that and not like 20, so that should be clarified and I mean this would be a bit of queue to do that. So.

I

Say me the one who do is like the relevant. Maybe this its water.

G

But it's more infuriating that that was about framing it's about the case of what they are. So we have a house and it's on fire. Okay, it's a fire sure if I put it out, there should be like well. This isn't good the patio.

B

It's downloadable through that word, rather than right now, by assignment or email they're down money together. There's like we're removing.

E

B

Step from the download process, don't think about fanfare or not getting a PR around it just think about the number of steps it takes you to download the application yeah.

J

For me, the versioning number, it's like like contracts and 41.0 a thing with the ONS contract of what we currently provide and these it's a going to 102, it's the actual release, and it's I mean there is a lot of things. I would be uncomfortable having in the contract.

E

J

Think already now, whenever we put a new release out, we should be straightforward about things that are not there yet, like future light, client or no access to HTTP API.

E

J

Kind of things and for white born or maybe some of these, maybe we can leave it to the community to decide. Wait. Wait, wait! Do everything you want. First, you want to 1.0 for those symbolic or you want us to actually spend more time.

J

With the users, this is.

G

D

Yeah ii think we might also publish like 0.9.

D

But still like it's, it's very cumbersome right now to sign up to wanna use it like for conferences and stuff. It's like it's pretty implausible that okay, I need today whether somebody menu they have to move this email.

D

So that's part we wanna remove by.

G

I think I started spinning applique I fail it as be Mohamed. Oh I think there's a complete wrong mindset. Possessed you its father, pay attention to right.

G

This is one time like this should be about what I think now.

D

On this list, because if it's not then I mean we can do perfectly secure like in.

D

G

Exchange the question would be that we make something: that's completely doesn't.

I

Matter into this down.

G

Like flies with blue stickers, whatever way we do, men like that would be one them, and maybe that's like a three five year time.

I

Horizon now,.

G

Go ahead with me: if m10 encryption is broken today or.

I

If there's a bullet that we should pull their clock, which is remove.

G

That right and then there's robotics picture Mike but I've.

I

Been producing, we said we have some an idea of that and the other state, and that we've progressed with one person must.

G

Be okay with, but now likely you're okay is internet is down that we are down in desk. Okay, compromise dude for the first four years right.

I

G

Right, this is stopping witness of my guilty.

I

G

Then going from there together so.

I

What are we not with it? Okay,.

G

With it alright now and watch things lie in between.

A

J

E

J

Maybe taking all the announcements that we made with whatever promises we already put out there, whatever we don't provide yet is like something that needs to be in one, and you promise that already.

G

C

Think it would be effective to continue like discussing actual principles on Friday after we've, had a chance to look at issues and see why we're making certain decisions, because if it does feel like a discussion, it keeps coming up and it's it's big in its influence and we can keep talking about it. So it feels like, by applying it to like actual problems that we need to solve now and seeing how we respond to the host. We might get to a list of principles more effectively.

C

We don't compromise.

A

Their signals about.

A

E

A

G

D

D

B

Probably there's a lot of people who may want to that is principals our, if not to contribute others just give us an instant. So if we can set up with this group, whoever and a being a good focus among principals, so we can record it and whoever is in a group can have one person to document it out so that we can have something to come out of the discussion. That.

D

I think we already know tickets.

B

Like we have losing on video, we don't have notes and there's a lot of good discussion. So especially this justly. Is it isn't going to be like like what our gonna compromise on.

C