Tennessee House of Representatives 112th House Agriculture Committee, 24 Mar 2021

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From YouTube: House Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee - March 24, 2021 - House Hearing Room 3

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House Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee - March 24, 2021 - House Hearing Room 3

A

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, this is march 24th 2021. about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, and this is the house, agriculture and natural resources committee. We are now in session clerk call the rope.

B

Representatives cochran cooper, darby, dodget, hardaway holsey, hurt potts, reedy, rudder, shaw, todd, travis wright, vice chairman drills, chairman alfred here, mr chairman, you have a quorum.

A

Thank you clerk, um a little house cleaning business here to begin with. Hb 322, which is number two on your calendar, has been rolled one week. Hb 1138 and number four on your calendar is off notice and hp. 214 number six on your calendar is rolled one week, so that's going to give us a short calendar, but we have a treat later on in the day in the meeting, because we're going to have ag day light. After all, we're not able to have a regular ag day.

A

So um vice chairman on my right here is going to take care of that for us in just a few minutes. So um first bill on our calendar is uh house bill 0227 by representing vaughn representative vaughn. You are recognized, have a motion in a second.

C

I'll try to make this brief, but I do kind of want you to understand what we're talking about here. It's kind of a complex subject.

A

Let me let me do one thing just a minute right, quick. There were amendments that had been filed on this bill, but they have been uh taken off. So we there are no amendments on this bill as I that.

C

Is correct, we were thank you for that clarification. Mr chairman, there's um there's been a lot of conversation in the community around this bill whenever we or whenever construction or development activities, whether it be a road, a subdivision, uh anything like that has to go through and negatively impacts, wetlands or streams there has to be under the zero net loss policy.

C

There needs to be compensatory changes done somewhere to create that habitat in that same type of area to replace that natural resource that can be done sometimes by on site contractors or developers will take care of it there on the site itself or, if there's not. If that's not practical and tdot is one of the largest consumers of these credits, then you go and you buy credits somewhere in typically in the same watershed, and that habitat is created to take the place of where that has been destroyed.

C

There's two vehicles, two ways of doing that in another basin or in that same basin, one is through a mitigation bank where there's there's a lot of them are operated by conservancies ducks unlimited has a huge one in my area.

C

What they'll do is they'll, go in and create the habitat on the front end and then sell credits for for the appropriate amount of mitigation out of what's already existing, there's another way called in lieu of fee banks and that's what this area, this legislation typically or more particularly deals with it's, where people basically go out and have the opportunity to sell credits and then take that money and deliver mitigation later.

C

That has not proven to be the best way to do things. We've had some examples of people taking money, but yet never reinvesting it into the resources to create the habitat that has been destroyed. So basically, what we've got are, in this case, tens of millions of dollars that have been taken from people who are who are trying to do the right thing with regards to their construction projects, yet they're paying in yet there's no offsetting credit.

C

So that's what we're doing is we're trying to keep money from being taken in and the work not being delivered, and so that's that's. My explanation, I'll be happy to answer any questions. Questions. If anybody has some questions.

A

For representative vaughn.

A

D

Todd, thank you, mr chairman representative. I appreciate you bringing this and- and we certainly have agreed in the past that one particular in-lu program has been a problem with taking money in and not really producing the credits in a timely fashion. There are others. I would note that in our state that have done the same type of work, same type of program- and these are non-profits that take in this money and then generate the the credits afterwards and they have been operating properly.

D

So we've got a mix in this state uh and- and I think this legislation started well over a year ago to try to rectify the one problem that we do have and and uh and this is at least going to address what could happen in the future and appreciate uh representative vaughn bringing this, because this is one of the most difficult topics to get my hands around and I'm in part of this business uh professionally.

D

But it is a very complicated system. I will say of how these things are set up uh their governing boards and and so on, and and how the money flows and how this is supposed to work. So I appreciate you bringing this and uh and look forward to supporting it. Thank you comments.

C

Thank you, sir, and it is I would that was a I'm glad you, you cleaned that up, because not everyone in this industry are bad actors, but unfortunately, occasionally you do and and for whatever the reasons are, it's basically there's a problem in the delivery chain of this.

C

These fees that are being paid into the offsets not occurring, and what scares me to death for in my private uh business is, if my clients buy into these in these credits, they've paid money in good faith, and yet these credits, what is, if is there any clawback on them? And so there's a lot of areas here that this just needs a lot more attention than what's been given.

A

Representative cooper, we're.

E

Recognized, thank you, mr chairman, rather than the bond does this have a relationship to what is going on with the pipeline. That's proposed to be built in the southwest area of memphis.

C

E

But they brought some critics. Are you familiar with the environment and conservation, uh letting a permit approving a permit for the building of a pipeline in southwest memphis representative.

C

Thank you. Thank you, mr chairman uh representative cooper. I I know that there is, I know, there's a proposed pipeline. I know that the there is some has been some community concerns with regards to that pipeline, but I don't see there at this point in time. Nothing with this bill was brought about or relates to to that project. This was actually we voted on this on the house floor last year, and so this this has not.

C

This doesn't have anything to do with that project, but it there may have some implications if they're buying environmental credits somewhere. So that's the best way. I know how to answer that. One.

A

Representative cooper.

E

Thank you, mr chair. The reason why I ask I'm not really a student on all of the training of what I need to know me that uh represented here can help me understand more about buying credits. I understand that somebody or some company bought critics to do something with from in through environmental uh environment and conservation department.

E

They did a study in the uh about it and it, and you talked about some waterways a little. Yes, they have to do see.

E

I need to put all this together because it's a little loose for me, but I'm working on it, but I remember them buying some credit and then that that permit was passed by the state department of uh environment conservation and that's why I ask you: I'm trying to get a handle on on how you buy credits and you have they do the studying and they building the pipeline, and we have a lot of controversy around it.

E

Of course, like you said, and I was wondering if that would your bill would help that in the future or what would he do to help any construction or developers who are trying to build a pipeline or anything else through a community or in a city or county? Is that making sense? Yes, yes, ma'am.

C

Representative, thank you, mr chairman, and and representative cooper. What this bill in relationship to that case. Let's take that one if they have purchased credits for where they're crossing streams and they're going to be negatively impacting streams. The way that this bill would be involved with that with is wherever they bought their credits. We this bill would make sure that those credits were b. Actually, the money was actually going into the environment that it wasn't just going and sitting in a bank account somewhere.

C

That's that's what this bill would do it make sure that in in- and I know, you're asking specific specifically about the pipeline- but let's say tdot has a road and tdot has to has to relocate part of a stream in order for them to build the road effectively and most cost conscious.

C

What they'll do is they may buy stream mitigation credits? This tdot they're one of the large ones too, and what would happen with this is this would help ensure that that money that they pay in actually finds its way into the ground to where it does have a positive impact on the environment.

E

A

The questions ms cooper.

E

Thank you, mr chair. The reason why this is so important- and I think everybody here I don't know whether they've had the experience I never had that experience. I know that tdot has built a pipeline on the table for the park in the district, but I never had this experience before with the community and they were really uh upset.

E

I'm concerned about it, because we have an octopus there, that's one of the most famous in the united states from what I might research now that I'm getting all into it, and it will only uh disrupt that little community, that's uh depressed and poor in african-american.

E

But it's going to impact all of memphis that octopus is elite, comes out and the department of environment conservation passing at least I don't know whether they did everything that studies and so folks said it's not to. As we said, sometime about bills, not significant on this, it's not going to be disruptive that it's so important that if that saying around that with the university of memphis haven't received 250 thousand dollars to do the study, and we still don't know that we need to protect our groundwater and and your bill.

E

And as I see it, hopefully, as you say that it might help deter some of our permit approvals until we make sure that it's not going to affect our water because we take water for granted and we can't live without water. But sometimes we don't think about that.

E

A

Hold on that's.

E

The reason why I was I brought this: let's try to get some.

A

E

That I'll know when something like this happens again and even now, because I can explain to some of our constituents in the community on what is going on with the state purchasing of approving a permit.

C

Yes, sir, thank you, mr.

E

C

Ms cooper, uh the what I can tell you, is that this bill may or may not. I I know it doesn't have anything to do with the pipeline approvals, but what it does have to do with is the vehicles that a wide variety of operators use to offset their negative environmental impacts, and so.

E

Thank you, mr chair. Thank.

A

You representative,.

B

Shaw, thank you, mr chairman. uh Thank you sponsor. I just I thought I was going to get this answer in in this conversation.

B

How are you going to keep up with this? Have you got a process already in place? Where are you going to be able to know who paid in and did everybody get their money and so forth, or you just passing the bill at this point.

C

What what this does is this gives uh it authorizes t deck to take a lot more actions with regards to the oversight of this program, representative, shaw uh and because right now, the way that things it's a little bit loose because, as representative todd correctly pointed out, there's a lot of non-profits in various areas, and you know people there's projects occurring everywhere, and so what this is going to do is allow t deck to provide more oversight of these programs. Make sure that we're getting what folks pay for.

A

Cindy shaw, representative.

D

Todd, thank you, mr chairman, and and the oversight right now. Right relies primarily on the corps of engineers and and it's there's been some discussions with the groups that are involved in this as to how that relationship goes and it changes with personnel, unfortunately, but having it more on a local basis where tdec can help have input on these projects. Have some enforcement authority is really what this is about, so that we can rein those in and to representative cooper's point while ago.

D

I believe that project that she was referring to actually has some a-wrap permits that that, where they, uh they actually alter aquatic resources, including wetlands, and they have purchased uh in-lieu credits from uh the tennessee mitigation fund. So it's a wetland bank uh similar to an in loop program, and uh they will then provide those wetland credits uh once they you know, produce those. So um just from the standpoint of that project, you know there's nothing here that changes the way that works.

D

It just gives some oversight for t deck to make sure that those things are accomplished once they're paid for and just like representative vaughn said. You know we're we're concerned that that folks, like tdot or private customers, have paid money into something and it's it doesn't produce a product, then who's responsible for that at the end of the day.

D

So those are part of the questions I've been asking, but as far as our aquifers go as it was mentioned, you know the the aquifer she was referring to actually comes up into my district and a little bit into chairman hoffer's district.

D

I believe the recharge area of that aquifer, so wetlands in my district and his district affect that aquifer that so many rely on and it is a different topic, but that's one of the reasons we have these programs so that when you lose an acre of wetland in one area, then that is replaced with three or four acres, let's say of wetlands somewhere else, which is a critical part of recharging, the aquifers with clean water. So it's it all fits together and sometimes it's kind of hard to see how these pieces fit together.

D

It is a somewhat complicated system, but I appreciate the chance to talk about that. Mr chairman comments.

A

Representing no sir representative hardaway.

F

Thank you, mr chairman and good afternoon to the sponsor uh the conversation about the aquifer is important and I think chairman todd covered some of my concerns about how your legislation may fit into that puzzle and he's right. The recharge area for the aquifer is quite a bit of west tennessee period and going down into mississippi and over in the arkansas.

F

So the the concern that I have that's been really because of this conversation is whether, when we are starting to look at these uh in lieu of fees for mitigation purposes, whether the legislators shouldn't be in the loop, whether there's some type of notification of these requests, whether it's for the credits or whether it's for the permits, which I understand your bill doesn't deal with. But it just brings to mind, mr chairman, that maybe this is an opportunity for us to look at a bigger picture.

F

So the legislators are better informed and, as representative cooper had said, all this fits together. This puzzle fits together for the benefit of the environment for achieving our conservation goals. So every piece of it needs to be something that we're aware of.

F

So we can have a better outcome, so I'll ask the sponsor, if he'll, consider that, as we move forward, not necessarily with this bill, but because of his expertise and because of his proximity uh to the pipeline and those concerns down there that we start to have that conversation about whether legislators ought to be receiving notice, whether it's for these credits that are requested or sold, or whether it's for the permit permitting process that chairman todd noted.

F

Thank you. Thank you, mr chairman. I represented.

A

Yvonne, mr.

C

Chairman, uh I'm I'm glad you touched on that uh representative hardway, because one thing that is a part of and it's something that that we all should be aware of, and we sometimes we it's not just legislators that are getting notified.

C

It's the general public, there's a significant public notice requirement whenever an a-wrap permit is applied for there's significant public notice whenever uh an a-wrap permit which drives the need for these credits come if there's going to be a mitigation bank formed there's significant public notice, but what happens is is so often times until it matters to you. It doesn't matter to you and will overlook the print, we'll, look and see the public notice.

C

That's printed and we'll say: oh well, that's in millington or that's you know somewhere, that's not my proximity and it just kind of goes by. What I would say is is: is that the with the significant amount of public notice that's out there?

C

I would say it's incumbent upon us to be more diligent in our review of that information as it comes across, and so that would be because, as someone who is responsible for applying for all of this, you think okay, we need to go, notify we're already notifying the general public, and so I would just say that, uh and your point is well made in the fact that they complete disclosure needs to be made because, frankly, this is not there's, not anything wrong being done here.

C

But people have an interest in it, and so that's already out there, but as far as adding a layer of legislative uh notification beyond what the general public already receives, I would have to give that a lot of contemplation.

A

Representative hardaway.

F

Thank you, mr chairman, and just to be clear. What I'm suggesting uh just off top of my head right now is, for instance, their notifications that we we receive according to issues with nursing homes uh that comes to us as an email.

F

When I scan my emails- and I see that subject line, I pay attention, so I'm suggesting that it might be because this puzzle includes all of west tennessee serves as a recharge area for that memphis aquifer, so whatever pollution, whatever issues there are in that recharge area, it affects all of us all of us not just in memphis shelby county, but all of the state of tennessee, because what the the economic driver for memphis shelby county a lot of that is just based upon our ability to access two thousand year old water.

F

That requires very little uh treatment and it's it's potable. So that's where I'm coming, I'm agreeing with you and then I'm asking you to go a step further.

F

A

Chairman devon.

C

Thank you, sir, and and I would also like to say- and this is just for everyone or any here- and anyone that's watching the live stream. Tdec has a water resources uh website that lists every permit that they issue in every permit application. This information is available to the general public and to us as legislators, and so this information is out there, but I understand what you're saying, sir, and and I will give that some some consideration.

A

Ladies and gentlemen, we need to be sure that we stay keep our questions related to uh what the bill is here. So with that said, uh referendum charles did, you ask to be recognized.

B

I did it, mr chairman, and I just I should have said this one ahead to mike. Thank you for this recognition, and this is more of a comment than to the sponsor I'm going to support your legislation, I'm not speaking against the legislation, but I do think we need to be mindful of how we bash t deck over here quite often, and now we're asking them to do more. So when we start bashing them.

B

Let's remember that we put more work on them to do, because I hear more complaints about what t-deck does not do so as long as we understand we expect more out of them, we've got to give them time to do it, so I just want to make sure that I'll remind this committee we're going to do this, this legislation- let's do it, but in the same time, don't come back six months from now complaining about what they don't do. That's all that's coming out, I wanna make thank you.

A

Questions been called on the bill without objection. We are voting on house bill, zero, two two seven to go to calden rules, all in favor will say aye all opposed, say no eyes have it. Thank you, mr.

C

Chairman committee, I enjoyed the robust conversation this afternoon. We were glad.

A

To have you today uh next bill uh zero. Three two two has been rolled one week. That brings us to the third item on the calendar, which is house bill 595 by representative clemens, mr chairman, I make a motion. We send.

D

This bill to summer study.

A

I have a motion in a second that we send this bill to summer study. All in favor will say aye all opposed, say no eyes have it.

A

Next bill is uh 11 38, it is off notice.

A

uh The next one is house bill, 1384 by representative todd representative todd. You are recognized on the bill. I believe we have a couple of amendments on that bill.

D

Thank you, mr chairman. We do have.

A

What are the tracking numbers on your amendment.

D

All right, we have.

D

Drafting code, four: two: two: two.

A

I showed two drafting numbers here. It's four two, two two, the one we want to consider might get.

D

Clarification from our legal assistant.

C

Matt mundy from legal.

F

That's the drafting code that I have am I with me. I'm.

A

Told that we are to uh consider amendment 4222.

A

I have a motion and a second on the amendment um representative todd. You may proceed.

D

The amendment makes the bill, and this basically gives the commission, the wildlife commission, the ability to change the annual hunting and fishing licenses to a period that would start whenever a person buys that right now, when you purchase one it's good from march the 1st to the end of february, if you buy the february 1st, it's still good to the end of february and and it expires, and so this would make it a true annual permit whenever you purchase it any day of the year.

D

What this does again, it gives the commission the ability to do that. If we did that here, which is the way this started, we found out that it was going to put us in jeopardy of losing some federal funding, at least for a year, and so they would be able. The commission will be able to study that and know the exact timing to put this into play. So that's that's all it does.

D

I think this is going to be really good for our sportsmen across the state and probably encourage even more sales than where we, where we have seen those sales lately.

A

Ladies and gentlemen, you have heard the explanation of the amendment. Are there questions for the sponsor on the amendment seeing none? We are voting on house amendment 422, all in favor will say aye all opposed, say no eyes have it. We are now back on house bill 1384, as amended representative todd.

A

Question has been called all in favor of house bill 1384 as amended we'll say aye all opposed, say no eyes have it. Your next stop is go off. Sir.

A

The next bill- this is my bill, but it has been rolled for one week and uh I believe that finishes our business for uh today. So I wouldn't entertain a motion to adjourn at this point in time.

A

We stand adjourned and now we're gonna move to the fun part, I'm going to recognize representative grills and let him take over here to proceed with our ag day on the hill.