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From YouTube: Debate: Gender Pay Gap - 4 October 2017
Description
S5M-07946 Gordon Lindhurst on behalf of the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee:
Gender Pay Gap—That the Parliament notes the conclusions and recommendations contained in
the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee's 6th Report, 2017 (Session 5), No Small Change:
The Economic Potential of Closing the Gender Pay Gap (SP paper 179).
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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A
B
You,
deputy
presiding
officer
last
spring,
the
economy,
jobs
and
Fair
Work
committee
undertook
an
inquiry
into
the
economic
impact
of
the
gender
pay
gap
in
Scotland.
We
heard
from
a
large
range
of
witnesses
and
I
would
like
to
thank
everyone
who
gave
us
their
views
during
the
inquiry,
whether
in
written
evidence,
Twitter
stories,
case
studies,
formal
meetings
or
committee
visits.
All
of
these
helped
inform
our
inquiry
and
shape
the
report.
B
Now
this
may
sound
slightly
controversial,
but
we
were
of
course
well
aware
that
we
were
by
no
means
the
first
to
attempt
to
tackle
the
subject.
However,
we
wanted
to
try
and
look
at
the
issue
from
an
economic
point
of
view,
to
understand
potential
benefits
to
Scotland's
economy.
If
there
were
parity
of
earnings
first,
it
is
important
to
attempt
to
clarify
what
we
mean
by
the
gender
pay
gap.
B
As
has
been
highlighted,
a
common
misconception
can
be
that
it
is
about
men
and
women
being
paid
the
same
for
equal
work,
but
the
gender
pay
gap
is
not
the
same
as
equal
pay.
In
1970,
the
Equal
Pay
Act
introduced
as
a
legal
right.
The
requirement
that
women
should
be
paid
equally
for
doing
the
same
or
comparable
work.
It
was
a
disappointment
to
the
committee
to
hear
that,
despite
over
40
years,
having
passed,
this
has
still
not
been
resolved
and
live
claims
remain
outstanding
against
employers
who
are
considered
to
discriminate
on
grounds
of
gender.
B
If
the
gender
pay
gap
is
not
defined
in
the
same
ways,
Equal
Pay,
what
is
it?
How
is
it
measured?
The
committee
found
that
calculating
the
pay
gap
is
not
a
straightforward
task,
most
commonly
it
is
carried
out
by
comparison
of
the
hourly
earnings
of
men
and
women,
but,
unlike
other
labour
market
indicators
such
as
unemployment,
there
is
internationally-recognized
definition
of
the
pegar.
This
means
that
in
scotland
the
pay
gap
can
vary
from
6%
to
33%,
depending
on
which
measure
is
used.
This
made
it
difficult
drawing
comparisons
between
Scotland
and
other
countries.
B
Now
to
be
consistent
with
the
UK
Office
for
National,
Statistics
or
ons,
the
Scottish
government
uses
the
full
time
median
pay
gap
which
compares
median
hourly
earnings
of
full-time
male
and
full-time
female
workers.
The
Scottish
government
measure,
however,
excludes
part-time
workers
and
in
doing
so,
42
percent
of
female
workers
in
Scotland
and
75
percent
of
part-time
workers
are
women,
with
42
percent
of
women
mark
working
part-time
compared
to
13
percent
of
men.
B
So
without
including
part-time
workers
from
calculating
the
gender
pay
gap,
it
is
to
be
questioned
whether
the
result
of
the
measure
used
by
the
Scottish
Government
fairly
represents
the
Scottish
workforce.
So
the
committee
has
accordingly
urged
the
Scottish
government
to
change
the
way
it
measures
and
reports
the
gender
pay
gap
in
its
national
performance
framework
to
take
into
account
part-time
workers.
As
a
result,
the
Scottish
Government
has
at
least
committed
to
including
additional
information
on
Scotland
performs
to
show
the
position
for
part-time
workers,
and
that
is
to
be
welcomed.
B
Rather
than
just
look
at
the
gender
pay
gap,
the
committee
wanted
to
look
at
possible
implications.
It
has
for
the
Scottish
economy,
so
the
committee
heard
evidence
from
a
range
of
witnesses
who
spoke
to
the
potential
economic
benefit
of
increasing
women's
participation
by
reducing
the
gender
pay
gap.
B
Further
Scotland's,
specific
and
detailed
research
does
need
to
be
carried
out.
However,
we
do
know
that
women
across
our
economy
continue
to
be
concentrated
in
low
paid
industries
and
part-time
work.
They
can
be
impacted
at
all
stages
of
their
working
lives
and
not
solely
as
a
result
of
choosing
to
start
a
family
or
to
take
time
out
of
their
careers,
and
it
is
particularly
important,
in
the
committee's
view,
to
note
the
care
sector
and
its
importance
in
our
society.
B
It
is
the
committee's
view
that
the
care
sector,
including
child
care
and
adult
and
elderly
care,
is
an
undervalued
but
growing
and
central
part
of
Scotland's
economy,
and
it
is
not
just
a
big
childcare
care,
as
a
sector
is
also
representative
of
many
of
the
reasons
for
the
existence
of
the
gender
pay
gap.
The
sector
is
dominated
by
women
and
is
traditionally
low
paid.
B
Social
care
needs
a
more
diverse
workforce.
It
needs
to
be
valued
as
a
sector.
It
needs
to
be
better
paid
in
its
recommendations.
The
committee
recognized
the
impact
that
improving
pay
in
child,
adult
and
elder
elderly
care
would
have
not
only
on
reducing
the
gender
pay
gap,
but
also
on
recruiting
a
more
balanced
workforce,
and
that
balance
we
heard
can
have
a
real
and
meaningful
impact
during
the
course
of
the
inquiry.
B
95%
of
their
workforce
is
female
and
the
agency
recommends
payment
of
the
living
wage
as
a
minimum,
but
the
5%
her
male
often
undertake
the
higher
paid
jobs.
One
of
the
other
visits
was
two
men
in
child
care.
A
Scottish
government
initiative
and
Edinburgh
Council
funded
initiatives
aimed
at
encouraging
men
into
childcare.
B
Again,
childcare
is
normally
a
sector
which
is
primarily
people
by
female
workers,
but
the
men
on
this
visit
spoke
positively
of
the
reception
they
had
experienced
from
families
of
children
they
worked
with.
They
highlighted
the
need
for
more
men
to
show
an
interest
in
the
profession,
encouraging
men
into
childcare
and
supporting
both
women
and
men,
with
wages
that
show
the
importance
of
care
should
have
real
benefits
beyond
the
purely
economic.
I
would
also
like
to
highlight
importance
of
flexible,
agile
and
part-time
working.
B
The
committee
found
that,
even
if
employers
are
actively
looking
to
assist
women
in
reentering
the
workforce,
they
may
struggle
with
the
provision
of
part-time
jobs
and
flexible
working.
The
committee
heard
that
in
the
UK,
around
8%
of
rolls
advertised
with
a
salary
of
over
20,000
pounds
per
annum
offers
some
sort
of
flexible
working,
but
flexible
working
can
be
important
for
different
reasons
and
at
different
career
stages.
Without
the
opportunity
of
flexible
working,
women
can
lose
out
in
the
jobs
market
and
we
can
all
lose
out
on
what
their
skills
provide
for
us.
B
The
committee
has
heard
evidence
of
the
business
benefits
of
offering
agile
and
flexible
working
and
notes
that
good
practice
of
companies
can
positively
influence
maternity
return
rates
at
an
appropriate
time.
In
recent
years,
some
companies
have
introduced
programs
to
encourage
people
back
into
the
workforce
after
a
career
break
breaks
or
a
career
break,
not
big.
For
some.
This
is
a
return
to
work
after
maternity
leave,
but
not
exclusively.
The
committee
has
heard
that
one
of
the
key
points
at
which
women
drop
out
of
the
workforce
is,
after
a
career
break,
often
to
care
for
children.
B
We
were
encouraged
to
hear
that
businesses
and
organizations
have
been
finding
innovative
ways
of
supporting
employees
to
return
to
the
workforce
and
retrain
with
the
assistance
of
appropriate
mentoring.
The
Scottish
Government's
support
of
returners
programs
and
its
commitment
to
learn
from
best
practice
and
work
with
partner
projects
is
to
be
welcomed.
B
The
committee
recognizes
that
different
solutions
may
be
needed
for
different
sectors
and
that
approaches
to
return
as
programs
should
be
tail
accordingly.
There
is
a
host
of
arguments
as
to
why
the
gender
pay
gap
should
be
addressed.
I
have,
of
course,
only
had
the
opportunity
in
this
short
speech,
to
cover
a
few
key
points
and
a
few
of
the
aspects
of
the
report
which
the
committee
produced
where
the
subject
is
a
very
complex
and
wide-ranging
one.
B
The
equality
and
Human
Rights
Commission
in
its
written
evidence
on
its
own
gender
pay
gap
situation
as
independently
audited
revealed
a
zero
percent
pay
gap
across
its
staff
groups,
but
that
pay
equality
actually
varied
at
different
levels
within
its
organization.
So
there
is
work
to
be
done.
This
is
why
the
committee
recommended
in
its
report
that
the
Scottish
Government
government
produce
an
overarching
strategy
to
address
the
gender
pay
gap,
including
an
action
plan
and
measurable
targets.
B
I
note
that
the
Scottish
Government
will
undertake
a
scoping
exercise
to
see
if
a
coordinated
cross
government
action
plan
is
feasible.
The
whole
committee
no
doubt
looks
forward
to
seeing
the
result.
In
conclusion,
with
the
political
will,
we
can
move
forward
in
a
balanced
and
appropriate
manner
to
address
this
issue.
It's
a
matter
of
fairness
to
all.
Thank
you.
I.
C
You
a
presenting
officer,
I'm,
very
grateful
to
members
of
the
economy,
jobs
and
fieldwork
committee
for
the
report
we
debate
today
and
the
chance
indeed
to
a
debate
I
welcome
to
what
they've
undertaken
to
to
build
a
better
understanding
of
the
drivers
and
reasons
for
the
prevalence
of
the
gender
pay
gap
and
Scot
the
retinas
of
mushrooms
received
by
the
committee
and
evidence
sessions.
They've
had
all
underlined
what
a
complex
issue
this
as,
but
this
government
is
not
shy.
C
C
He
is
quite
right
to
reflect
that.
There's,
no,
a
single
international
standing
relation
to
the
committee's
request.
We
have
responded
without
well
set
out
a
publication
of
a
wider
range
of
information
about
the
nature
of
the
gender
pay
gap
on
that
range
of
different
measurements
in
Scotland.
It
performs
I
think,
of
course,
the
fundamental
thing
it
present
officer
as
that,
no
matter
the
measurement.
We
want
to
see
it
moving
in
a
positive
direction,
and
that
has
been
the
case
here
in
Scotland.
But
of
course
we
want
to
see
it.
C
They
come
down
further
still
the
evidence
they
provided
during
the
inquiry
has
reinforced
much
of
what
we
know,
but
they
mean
drivers
of
the
gender
pay
gap
and
it's
confirmed
there
is
no
a
single
a
solution
it
according
we
agree
were
the
committee,
the
high
quality
evidence
and
analysis
as
vital
to
under
pending
effect
of
an
inclusive
policy
making
and
Scotland.
We
are
therefore
taking
real
steps
to
walk
forward
and
improving
our
gathering
and
communication
of
data.
Just
last
week,
we
we
published
a
working
paper
in
the
environment
of
agenda
index
a
for
Scotland.
C
We
will
no
engage
a
meaningful
dialogue
with
those
who
have
an
interest
in
the
matter,
as
we
take
this
forward
to
its
conclusion,
but
already
planning
and
a
workshop
for
later
they're
sorted
to
discuss
how
to
take
this.
For
the
long
said,
other
data
gaps
highlighted
and
they
recently
published
their
quality
evidence
is
strategy
it.
We
must
also
use
that
data
as
we
seek
to
improve
it
and
what
we
already
know
about
under-representation
of
women
and
traditional
meals
dominated
clears
the
gate.
Our
approach,
for
example.
C
We
need
more
men
to
enter
that
sector
and
also
we
need
to
make
sure
those
working
in
that
sector
are
adequately
remunerated.
That's
why
we've
committed
to
ensuring
those
working
in
adult
social
care
and
earliest
child
care
are
paid,
the
language
it
segregation
and
the
in
the
workplace,
gender
stereotyping
and
discrimination
starts
a
nelly,
a
chance
identity.
That's
why
it's
one
of
the
reasons
why
it's
so
important
for
us
to
insure
more
men,
work
and
earliest
child
care,
so
young
boys
have
that
role
model.
C
But
it's
also
why
we've
been
developing
our
stem
strategy
and
why
we'll
be
publishing
which
we
will
be
publishing
shortly
and
it's
why
we
are
implementing
the
developing
the
young
workforce,
a
strategy
in
partnership
with
schools
around
Scotland
and
the
Scottish
funding
K.
So
we
have
said
to
Alice
to
increase
the
gender
minority
she
and
the
most
imbalance
college.
Subject:
groups
and
Modern
Apprenticeship
three
months
by
2021.
C
We
know
that
I've
seen
it
all
too
often
when
I'm
out
in
a
boat,
that
a
modern,
a
plane
ship
can
be
a
life-changing
opportunity
for
a
young
person.
That's
why
we're
committed
to
expanding
the
reach
of
that
opportunity,
tackling
agenda
imbalances
and
promoting
equality
of
access
through
the
work
of
development,
young
workforce,
the
Modern
Apprenticeship
equality
action
plan
and
the
Scottish
funding
Carroll
gender
action
plan.
We've
said
a
number
of
ways.
We
aim
to
ensure
that
young
people
can
be
supported
with
their
subject
and
career
choices.
C
Since
my
appearance
before
the
committee
skills
develop
Scot,
they
published
their
quality
action
plan
year.
One
update
overall
had
been
improvement
to
the
number
of
a
modern
pleasure
three
months
for
the
gender
balance
is
greater
than
75
25
from
74
percent
in
2015-16
to
70%
and
2016-17.
That
says,
welcome
progress,
but,
of
course
again
we
must
see
anymore
its
cause.
Well,
it's
gone.
C
They've
continued
to
work
with
a
range
of
organizations
to
follow
improve
the
gender
imbalance
in
the
uptake
of
apprenticeship
frameworks,
and
we
will
continue
to
support
the
aim
to
ensure
that
apprentice
to
opportunities
are
open
to
all.
There
is,
of
course,
though,
aquila
need
to
make
sustainable
change
to
societal
and
cultural
norms
to
achieve
the
inclusive
growth.
We
want
to
see
that
says
a
long-term
commitment,
not
one
that
we
will
achieve
overnight.
C
We
need
consistent
commitment
from
every
part
of
the
system
to
make
this
a
lasting
changes
to
make
sure
we
tackle
discrimination
and
then
what
place
this
government
has
committed
to
that
agenda.
That's
why
I
presume
officer,
I
cheer
working
group
on
placing
the
maternity
discrimination?
That's
why
we
support
of
women
returners
programme,
as
mentioned
by
god,
Montes.
That's
why
we
have
what
with
team
eyes
and
we
fund
and
take
part
and
family-friendly
it
working
it's
got,
that's
why
we
have
got
our
Scottish
business
pledge.
C
That's
why
we're
rolling
out
more
Elias
child
care
as
very
much
an
agenda
we
are
signed
up
to
it's,
not
just
a
commitment
for
us
all
and
the
political
sector.
Of
course
this
needs
to
be
a
societal
commitment,
but
the
chamber
can
be
assured.
The
committee
can
be
assured
as
an
agenda
that
we
as
a
government
are
saying
up
to.
D
You,
deputy
presiding
officer,
let
me
start
by
thanking
the
Clarkes
and
others
involved
for
the
hard
work
in
preparing
the
report
on
the
gender
pay
gap.
This
is
an
important
report.
It
deals
with
a
complex
topic
that
cuts
across
issues
of
fairness,
equality
and
social
justice,
as
well
as
the
wider
economic
considerations
such
as
low
pay
and
skills
development
for
women,
the
gender
pay
gap
in
Scotland
or
the
UK
is
not
unique
to
this
country.
It's
a
common
feature
of
advanced
and
developing
economies
worldwide.
D
In
fact,
the
gender
pay
gap
in
Scotland,
as
the
minister
said,
stands
at
six
point:
two
percent
for
full-time
employees
and
15.6
percent
for
all
employees,
and
is
that
the
lower
end
of
the
gender
pay
gap
compared
to
many
European
countries.
However,
more
needs
to
be
done
to
close
the
gap,
and
with
this
objective
in
mind,
a
major
focus
of
the
committee
was
to
identify
the
underlying
factors
which
caused
the
the
gap
in
pay.
D
The
committee
looked
in
depth
at
a
number
of
those
factors,
including
occupational
segregation,
in
particular
the
under-representation
of
women
in
STEM
and
other
highly
paid
occupations,
for
example,
only
2%
of
engineering,
jobs
and
18%
of
digital
technology.
Jobs
are
carried
out
by
women.
The
opposite
is
true
when
it
comes
to
lower
paid
sectors
where
there's
an
over
concentration
of
female
workers,
for
example,
Scottish
care
in
evidence
to
the
committee
told
us
that
86
percent
of
their
workers
wear
women.
D
Other
factors
heard
in
evidence
include
the
low
levels
of
women
who
reach
senior
management
within
organisations
and
women,
not
returning
to
work
after
having
children
or
not
returning
at
the
same
level,
with
Ernst
and
Young
telling
us
that
working
the
low
skills
level
is
an
issue
for
women
when
they
want
to
return
to
the
workplace
and
the
older
of
women.
Women
gets
the
harder
that
becomes
so
deputy
presiding
officer
in
order
to
effectively
address
the
gender
pickup.
It's
important
that
we
look
beyond
the
headlines.
D
We
look
beyond
the
easy
solutions
and
address
these
underlying
issues,
and
that's
what
the
committee
has
done
by
setting
out
a
comprehensive
set
of
recommendations.
Time
allows
me
only
to
highlight
a
few
first.
We
need
to
tackle
the
long
term
factors
that
result
in
occupational
segregation.
The
committee
heard
extent
of
evidence
that
key
to
tackling
occupational
segregation
is
encouraging
more
young
women
to
enter
high
earning
fields
such
as
stem-related
careers,
specific
recommendations
to
address
this
include
improved
career
guidance
from
primary
school
right
through
to
teshon
or
education.
D
There
was
a
feeling
that
career
guidance
sometimes
is
out
of
date
with
the
opportunities
available
in
the
workforce
and
sometimes
comes
too
late
in
the
career
options
of
of
pupils
and
there's
an
emphasis
of
maximizing
the
uptake
of
women
workers
in
stem
areas,
also
addressing
the
gender
imbalance
in
modern
apprenticeships,
and
we
welcome
the
minister's
plans
and
his
announcement
in
this
area
and
there's
also
a
job
to
be
done
in
encouraging
men
to
enter
social
care
and
other
sectors
heavily
represented
by
female
workers.
The
committee
also
recommends
better
support
for
women
returning
to
work.
D
This
is
addressed
to
some
extent
by
government
initiatives.
The
UK
government
has
announced
a
5
million
pounds
fund
to
support
this,
and
the
Scottish
Government
is
support.
Supporting
this
as
well,
but
I
think
it's
also
incumbent
on
the
private
sector
to
establish
effect,
a
returner
programs
for
women.
The
committee
heard
powerful
evidence
that
the
valuable
knowledge
and
skills
of
experienced
women
are
not
fully
deployed
when
they
return
to
work,
and
we
simply
cannot
afford
to
lose
this
valuable
talent
in
the
workplace.
D
We
also
need
to
consider
the
impact
of
the
decline
of
female
participation
at
colleges
and
the
impact
this
has
had
on
supporting
women
back
to
the
workplace
as
well
as
Scotland
has
reported,
the
fallen
part-time
college
places
has
had
a
disproportionate
impact
on
female
students.
The
committee
further
recommended
that
the
care
sector,
as
Gordon
Lyndhurst
mentioned
this
care
sector,
should
become
a
Scottish
government
priority
sector,
acknowledging
the
importance
of
this
sector
to
Scotland's
economy
going
forward
and
the
increased
spending
that
has
been
taking
place
and
that
will
take
place
in
this
sector.
D
Changing
demographics
mean
future
demands
placed
on
the
care
sector
will
increase
significantly
and
it's
important.
We
prioritize
this
to
achieve
a
a
balanced
workforce,
improve
productivity
and
help
make
this
sector
fit
for
future
challenges
ahead.
The
committee
has
also
called
for
more
analysis
and
in
on
the
gender
pay
gap
in
Scotland,
again
something
the
Minister
touched
on,
and
we
welcome
working
together
with
the
government
in
that
area,
because
the
gender
pay
gap
itself
varies
according
to
a
number
of
factors.
It's
not
a
static,
one-dimensional
problem.
D
It
varies
according
to
age,
social
class
and
level
of
education.
So
the
Committee
recommends
that
the
Scottish
Government
does
more
work
in
this
area
to
analyze
how
we
can
address
the
gap
in
Scotland.
In
this
respect,
the
committee
welcomed
the
UK
government's
initiative
for
companies
reporting
on
their
gender
pay
gap.
D
There
was
some
concern
expressed
that
the
the
250
employee
threshold
for
reporting
might
not
capture
large
parts
of
the
SME
economy
in
Scotland,
but
there
was
some
concern
raised
by
the
CBI
saying
that
any
extension
of
mandatory
reporting
to
companies
in
Scotland
with
less
than
250
employees,
would
place
a
significant
regulatory
burden
on
those
companies,
so
deputy
presiding
officer.
To
conclude
this
course
conservatives
support
steps
to
close
the
gender
pay
gap
in
Scotland.
We
agree
with
the
committee's
approach
to
deal
with
the
underlying
issues
and
not
just
the
headlines
or
the
outcomes.
D
As
the
report
itself
concludes,
there
is
recognition
that
the
reasons
for
the
gender
pay
gap
are
deep-seated
and
wide-ranging
and
need
to
be
tackled
across
a
number
of
policy
areas,
including
Education,
Skills,
childcare,
procurement
and
business
support.
We
agree
with
this
and
we
look
forward
to
working
with
the
Scottish
Government
to
close
the
gap.
Thank
you.
E
Officer
things
have
certainly
changed
since
you
and
I
were
first
elected
to
the
Parliament
in
1999
I'm
delighted
that
I've
been
preceded
by
three
men
in
this
debate
on
the
gender
pay
gap.
The
feminization
of
debates
in
this
Parliament
continues
apace,
but
presiding
officer
I
am
very
proud
that
it
was
the
Labour
Party
in
Barbara
castle
that
introduced
the
Equal
Pay
Act
in
1970,
so
that
men
and
women
receive
equal
pay
for
performing
equal.
E
What
that,
of
course,
followed
on
the
Ford
sowing
machinist
strike
at
Dagenham
and
fundamentally
change
women's
industrial
history
and
we've
come
a
long
way
in
almost
50
years,
but
there
is
much
much
more
work
still
to
be
done.
Let
us
not,
as
a
convener
quite
rightly
pointed
out,
confused
equal
pay
with
the
gender
pay
gap.
E
It
is
the
case
that
women
are
underrepresented
in
senior
management
and
leadership
roles,
and
it
is
the
case
that
women
still
have
the
majority
of
care
duties,
whether
it's
for
children
or
indeed
for
older
people,
and
if
we
maintain
the
snail's
pace
of
change
that
we
have
just
now,
it
will
take
another
a
hundred
and
forty
years
to
close
the
pay
gap.
Well,
I'm,
sorry,
but
I
can't
wait
that
long.
E
I
wouldn't
live
that
long
for
a
start,
but
I
am
impatient
for
change
not
just
for
my
generation
but
my
daughter's
generation
and
the
women
who
will
follow
her
but
I'm
impatient
for
that
change.
For
our
economy
too,
because
GDP
figures
announced
today
show
that
our
economy
grew
in
the
last
quarter,
but
by
only
0.1
percent
and
as
night
follows
day
out.
Came
the
press
release
from
Keith
Brown
claiming
credit
for
the
good
news.
The
Scottish
economy
is
teetering
on
the
brink
of
a
recession
and
the
cabinet.
E
Secretary's
response
is
breathtaking
in
its
complacency,
and
you
know
it
matters
now
more
than
ever
before,
because
lower
growth
rates
between
Scottish
and
UK
governments
will
have
an
impact
on
our
Block
Grant
because
of
the
fiscal
framework
so
growing.
Our
economy
is
a
fiscal
imperative,
happy
patrick.
F
Harvie
I'm
I'm
grateful
to
the
member
and
and
notwithstanding
the
long-standing
green
critique
of
economic
growth
as
an
overriding
objective
does
Jackie
Bailey
acknowledge
that
focusing
in
a
narrow
way
on
GDP
itself
fails
to
understand
the
different
gendered
aspects
to
economic
work,
unpaid
caring?
What,
for
example,
does
nothing
for
GDP
a
great
deal
of
that
is
done
by
women,
whereas
paid
caring
work
is
seen
as
contributing
to
GDP?
It's
a
it's
a
myopic
analysis,
Jackie
Bailey.
E
E
But
but
we
do
know
that
if
growth
suffers,
there
is
a
continuing
pay
gap
and
over
the
course
of
a
woman's
working
life,
she
will
earn
on
average,
four
hundred
and
fifty
six
thousand
five
hundred
and
eighteen
pounds
less
than
a
man
and
that's
a
shocking
statistic:
what
a
lost
opportunity,
because
if
we
close
the
gender
pay
gap,
we
inject
a
staggering
17
billion
pounds
into
the
Scottish
economy.
That's
transformational
for
our
economy,
but
it's
transformational
for
women
too.
So
it
is
imperative
that
we
close
the
gap.
E
The
committee
came
up
with
a
range
of
recommendations
covering
everything
from
a
national
strategy:
flexible
working,
tacking,
occupational
segregation,
segregation
to
making
care
a
priority
growth
sector,
and,
let
me
say,
as
gently
as
I
can
to
the
Minister
that
the
government's
response
is
weak.
It
is
timid.
Where
is
the
evidence
of
urgency,
the
evidence
of
momentum?
Where
is
the
evidence
of
political
priority
and
I
hope?
E
The
minister
proves
me
wrong,
and
here
is
one
area
where
he
can
do
just
that
formally
designating
care,
as
the
key
growth
sector
would
be
a
small
but
welcomed
first
step
in
addressing
the
undervaluation
of
care
work.
We
know
that
the
majority
of
staff
in
the
care
sector
are
female.
The
jobs
are
often
part-time
low
paid
as
the
society,
we
all
understand
the
importance
of
care,
and
yet
we
do
not
value
those
that
choose
caring
as
a
profession
in
their
take-home
pay.
E
At
the
moment
is
the
single
growth
biggest
growth
sector
in
employment
terms
than
any
other,
and
yet
it
is
not
on
the
radar
of
our
enterprise
agencies
and
that
needs
to
end.
We
know
that
child
care
provision
can
be
a
real
driver
for
economic
growth,
enabling
parents
to
return
to
the
workforce
or
increase
their
hours
and
with
the
expansion
of
child
care,
adult
social
care
and
older
people's
care.
We
need
to
address
the
skills
shortages
and
help
the
private
and
third
sectors
in
the
fields
of
investment,
leadership,
innovation
and
Fair
Work.
E
That
is
the
job
for
our
enterprise
agencies.
Our
economic
strategy
moved
towards
a
more
inclusive
definition
of
what's
important
to
the
Scottish
economy.
The
care
sector
should
be
at
the
center
of
that
supported
by
all
that
is
best
in
our
intra
enterprise
support
structures.
Now
I
recognise
the
first
step
has
been
taken
by
paying
the
real
living
wage
to
adult
social
care
staff,
but
that
doesn't
apply
overnight.
It
doesn't
apply
to
child
care
staff
and
when
Health
and
Social
Care
partnerships
are
commissioning
services,
there
are
still
issues
for
private
and
third
sector
care
staff.
E
As
costs
are
driven
downwards.
There
is
much
still
to
do
to
value
all
of
the
workforce
well
and
to
shattered
the
glass
ceiling
for
women
presiding
officer.
A
Labour
government
would
be
focused
on
reducing
the
gender
pay
gap,
not
on
protecting
the
privileged
few.
We
would
increase
the
minimum
wage
to
a
real
living
wage
of
10
pounds
per
hour
and,
as
part
of
our
plan
for
rights
and
worse.
E
A
H
H
Not
only
was
she
not
given
her
account
back,
but
she
was
then
put
onto
a
number
of
small
accounts,
all
of
which
were
on
to
use
their
terminal
terminology
red
alert
status
due
to
previous
mismanagement
by
another
staff,
member
and
so
effectively.
She
honor
returned
from
eternity
if
she
was
set
up
for
failure,
and
this
example
was
only
from
a
few
years
ago-
and
this
is
a
textbook
example
of
what's
called
the
motherhood
penalty,
that
many
mothers
may
face
throughout
their
employment.
H
Now
I
started
my
working
life
in
London
in
the
mid-1990s,
and
sometimes
it
feels
like
in
some
areas
we
have
moved
on,
but
in
some
areas
we
maybe
haven't
moved
on
as
quickly
as
I
certainly
would
like
them
to.
In
my
first
job,
a
systems
integrator
I
appeared
in
a
league
table
which
was
pinned
to
the
break
room
wall
best
work
performance.
No,
sadly,
not.
It
was
a
ranking
of
the
sexual
attractiveness
of
all
the
junior
female
employees
at
the
company.
H
In
taking
evidence
on
the
economy
committee
for
this
report,
my
colleagues
and
I
heard
detailed
testimony
about
the
ways
women
are
still
put
on
an
equal
footing
in
the
workplace
today,
and
the
motherhood
that
I've
just
mentioned
is
only
one
example
of
that.
According
to
the
PwC
report,
three
and
five
professional
mothers
that
return
to
the
workforce
are
likely
to
be
moved
into
lower
skilled
or
lower
paid
roles,
with
total
earnings
being
reduced
by
1/3.
H
This
phenomenon
sees
a
disproportionate
amount
of
women
taking
on
part-time
roles
and
forgoing
professional
advancement.
This
gender
pay
gap
is
the
undeniable
embodiment
of
a
workplace
culture
where
women
are
systematically
undervalued
and
Anjali
limited,
and
these
limitations
must
be
dismantled
if
the
gender
pay
gap
is
to
truly
be
reversed,
and
the
economy
committee
report
sets
forth
a
number
of
recommendations
that
aim
to
do
just
that.
For
instance,
we
heard
that
the
motherhood
penalty
would
diminish
if
changes
were
made
to
flexible,
working
and
also
to
childcare
provision.
H
A
demand
for
flexible
jobs,
which
is
quite
outstripped
by
supply,
is
causing
a
talent
bottleneck
that
has
had
an
adverse
effect
on
working
mothers,
forcing
them
into
part-time
jobs,
their
overqualified
for
and
do
not
necessarily
want,
but
flexible
working,
on
the
other
hand
enables
people
to
tend
to,
for
example,
caring
responsibilities,
but
without
sacrificing
their
earning
potential
and
their
professional
advancement
in
the
process.
This
also
has
business
benefits,
as
well
as
flexible
working
has
been
shown
to
boost
labor
market
participation
and
also
productivity.
H
H
Asse
had
a
really
good
example
of
this,
as
they
created
their
own
picture
book
for
children
and
this
features
a
female
engineer
is
then
brought
into
primary
schools
by
female
engineers.
Who
then
talk
to
the
children
about
their
work
in
gender
also
testified
before
the
committee.
They
spoke
of
a
leaky
pipeline
of
women
and
girls
in
the
hard
sciences,
and
really
we
need
to
put
strategies
into
place
to
foster
greater
and
more
sustained
female
involvement
in
these
currently
male-dominated
fields
and
the
city
of
glass
goes
college.
H
Women
in
construction
and
women
into
engineering
courses
are
really
good
examples
of
what
can
be
achieved
in
that
area.
Occupational
segregation
persists
outside
of
the
hard
sciences
as
well
with
women
holding
only
50%
of
the
positions
in
finance,
but
they're
concentrated
into
the
lowest
paying
jobs.
There
are
more
women
than
men
now
in
the
law
sector,
but
only
28%
of
partners
are
female,
and
if
women
do
you
break
into
tech?
H
My
example
earlier
from
my
own
life,
engineering
and
construction
there's
this
double
glass
ceiling
effect,
which
sees
only
12%
of
females
at
rising
to
management
in
those
fields.
I
can
see.
I
am
running
out
of
time,
presiding
officer,
so
we'll
just
say
that
there
is.
The
report
forward
mentioned
that
at
the
present
rate
of
progress,
it's
going
to
take
us
140
years
globally
to
close
the
gender
pay
gap.
A
G
Thank
You,
deputy
presiding
officer,
may
I
begin
by
adding
my
thanks
to
those
already
given
by
other
members
to
the
committee
and
all
those
who've
contributed
to
this
report
on
the
gender
pay
gap.
It's
a
very
worthwhile
substantive
and
wide-ranging
piece
of
work
and
I
have
no
doubt
that,
given
the
clear
cross-party
support
for
a
number
of
the
recommendations
brought
forward,
that
the
work
of
the
committee
will
ensure
that
Scotland
continues
to
be
a
leader
in
this
area
and
be
a
new
day,
we
must
make
sure
that
happens.
G
This
issue
is
so
vital,
so
important
and
goes
to
the
right
right
to
the
fundamental
issues
around
fairness,
equality
and
the
kind
of
society
in
which
we
want
to
live.
If
we
cannot
address
these
issues
and
ensure
that
everyone,
a
regardless
of
gender,
has
the
same
opportunities
throughout
their
life
and
I
think
we
should
all
be
embarrassed
not
just
as
a
parliament
but
as
a
country.
G
Here
in
this
Parliament
were
women
and,
whilst
I
recognize
Jackie
Bailey's
continued
perseverance
with
this
cause.
I'm
of
course
disappointed.
She
didn't
sail
forward
to
make
sure
that
continues
and
I
believe
that
these
examples,
indeed,
the
examples
of
all
women
in
public
life
and
in
prominent
positions
do
send
a
very
strong
message
of
the
changes
that
are
already
taking
place
within
our
society.
G
It
is
also
I
think
about
addressing
continued
stereotypes,
and
often
the
self-limiting
and
underlying
factors
which
discourage
particularly
women
from
entering
into
STEM,
related
jobs
and
equally
means
that
a
number
of
men
for
various
reasons
decide
that
they
do
not
wish
to
be
involved
in
the
care
sector
or
perhaps
would
be
unwilling
to
go
into
primary
teaching
or
nursing.
And
again,
while
I
understand
that
some
progress
has
been
made
in
some
of
those
areas
and
appreciate
that,
relatively
speaking,
these
barriers
are
beginning
to
break
down.
G
G
I
believe
that
we
can
continue
to
make
significant
progress,
and
we
must
because
every
day
that
the
gender
pay
gap
continues
to
exist
is
another
day
when
our
economy
is
underperforming
and,
more
importantly,
the
under
utilization
of
skills
and
talents
within
our
society
and
our
country
is
a
crying
shame
at
both
the
individual
and
a
national
level.
Thank
you.
I.
I
My
first
recourse
to
an
employment
tribunal
as
a
union
organizer
all
those
years
ago
was
an
Equal
Pay
case
for
the
head
chef
at
Rosyth
Dockyard,
who
discovered
that
she
was
getting
almost
two
pounds
an
hour
less
than
her
predecessor
we
won
and
down
the
years
I've
laid
in
one
equal
pay
cases
for
cleaners
at
long
Ganic
power
station
and
that
Diageo
sites
the
cross
Scotland
away.
We
discovered
that
there
was
a
janitor's
rate
of
play
meal,
a
cleaners
rate
of
pay
female
and
a
part-time
cleaners
rate
of
pay
female
2.
I
As
the
committee
report
shows,
women
make
up.
76
percent
of
all
part-time
workers
in
Scotland,
so
they
are
amongst
the
lowest
hourly
weekly
monthly
and
annually
paid
workers,
20
percent
of
all
women
workers,
nearly
300,000
women
in
Scotland
today
earn
less
than
the
living
wage
of
eight
pounds
45
an
hour.
This
compares
to
14
percent
of
male
workers
so
to
tackle
low
pay
and
in
work.
Poverty
is
also
to
tackle
the
gender
pay
gap,
and
that's
why,
for
the
Labour
Party,
the
living
wage
is
a
political
priority.
I
If
the
social
care
workforce
in
Scotland
was
more
balanced
and
representative
of
the
community
and
dare
I
say
it
more
male-dominated,
we
would
not
be
a
low
paid,
professional
and
so
I
say
to
the
government
that
unless
we
reevaluate
these
jobs
in
our
society
and
in
our
economy,
and
unless
we
address
the
scourge
of
low
pay,
we
will
never
close
the
gender
pay
gap
and
there
was
something
else.
I
knew
from
the
outset.
I
In
my
time
as
a
trade
union
organizer,
and
that
was
that
working
people
through
their
trade
unions
could
achieve
much
through
industrial
struggle
and
occasionally
through
the
courts
and
tribunals.
But
rail
and
decisive
advance
was
often
made
through
political
action
and
political
decisions
and
I
spent
much
of
my
time
in
the
Union
tilted
or
was
told
to
toe
to
toe
with
some
of
Scotland's
biggest
employers,
challenging
them
to
pay
the
living
wage.
I
One
of
the
best
examples
is
Diageo
the
biggest
drinks
company
in
the
world
which,
despite
negotiation
after
negotiation
year
after
year
record
profit
after
record
profit,
would
not
move
on
the
living
wage
for
their
lowest
paid
workers
who
are
employed
for
them,
but
not
by
them.
Every
few
years
from
compass
to
mighty
to
Sodexo
these
laws
paid,
cleaning
and
catering
workers.
Again,
a
group
of
predominantly
women
workers
were
treated
as
second-class
citizens
for
too
long.
I
So
when
a
representative
of
Sodexo
and
a
representative
of
Diageo
appeared
before
the
committee
as
part
of
this
inquiry,
I
was
not
surprised
to
hear
them
describe
how
they
were
committed
to
the
living
wage
concept
I'm.
So
the
committee
decided-
and
so
the
committee
decided
that
we
should
highlight
in
our
report
the
difference
between
actual
living,
wage
employers
and
these
conceptual
living
wage
employees,
and
it's
there
in
paragraph
192
of
the
final
report.
Actual
living
wage
employers
are
those
who
ensure
all
those
working
for
the
business
are
paid.
I
The
living
wage
and
conceptual
ones
are
those
who
support
the
concept
of
the
living
wage,
but
do
not
actually
implement
it.
So
I'm
delighted
this
afternoon
to
report
to
Parliament
that
those
low
paid
workers
employed
by
Sodexo
on
the
Diageo
contract
on
sites
across
Scotland
those
workers
who
I
represented
all
those
years
now
have
it
confirmed
in
writing
that
by
the
end
of
this
year,
because
of
political
pressure
applied
in
this
Parliament
will
get
the
living
wage
of
eight
pounds
45
an
hour.
So
there
is
a
lot
we
can
do
in
this
Parliament.
I
We
can
devise
a
national
strategy.
We
can
act
through
public
procurement.
We
can
redesign
the
Scottish
business
pledge
and
we
can
prioritize
the
social
care
sector
because
we
do
have
it
in
our
power
to
tackle
the
gender
pay
gap,
because
if
we
are
serious
about
equality
and
the
place
of
women
in
society,
then
this
Parliament
and
this
government
must
act
not
only
as
a
matter
of
economic
imperative
but
as
a
matter
of
moral
imperative
to.
F
F
Very
often
when
the
gender
pay
gap
is
even
acknowledged
in
mainstream
media
discussions,
it
is
around
the
the
highest
flying
business
people
or,
as
recently
it
around
the
massive
salaries
given
to
TV
stars
and
the
the
sex
and
even
seven-figure
salaries.
There
are
tiny
tiny
proportion
of
people
in
our
society
enjoy
now.
F
Obviously,
I
want
the
BBC
and
other
big
broadcasters
to
address
gender
inequality
and
if
it
means
that
we
see
a
bit
less
of
Andrew
Neil
on
the
telly
as
well,
and
that's
just
the
icing
on
the
cake,
but
an
attention
that
is
only
drawn
to
these
tiny
number
of
people
at
the
very
top
end
of
our
society
and
it's
economic
inequality.
Well
not
address
the
reality
of
the
vast
majority
of
people's
real
lives
and
it
came
across
in
something
that
Oliver
Mundell
said
as
well.
F
He
said
that
more
women
getting
to
the
top
getting
to
the
very
top
I
think
he
said,
is
the
only
way
to
address
the
gender
pay
gap
and,
as
an
example,
he
mentioned
that
the
heads
of
government
state
and
the
judiciary
in
this
country
in
the
UK
are
all
no
women.
Well,
if
getting
women
to
the
very
very
top
was
the
best
way
of
achieving
this,
then
we'd,
be
there
already
and
we're
not
I.
G
Understand
the
point:
Patrick
Harvey's,
trying
to
make
I
think
that's
a
mischaracterization
of
my
remarks.
I
said
that
having
women
in
these
prominent
roles,
making
decisions
being
seen
to
make
decisions
been
seen
to
take
the
lead
in
our
public
life.
It
was
an
important,
an
important
me
I'm,
probably
the
strongest
message
of
all
I
didn't
say
it
was
the
only
thing
that
could
be
done
and
I
hope
people
would
accept.
That
was
the
point.
I
was
meeting
Patrick.
F
Harvie
well,
if
that's
what
the
member
intended
to
say,
it
then
I'm
happy
to
accept
that,
but
I
would
I
would
suggest
that
sending
out
that
signal
may
be
a
nice
thing
to
do.
May
I
even
have
some
real
value,
but
if
we
send
out
the
signal
that
all
is
right
at
the
top,
without
fundamentally
changing
the
structural
inequalities
that
exist
throughout
the
rest
of
our
society
and
the
rest
of
our
economy,
then
we
won't
really
have
achieved
anything
more
than
a
cosmetic
change.
F
The
economic
case
for
reducing
and
eliminating
the
gender
pay
gap
has
been
touched
on
by
a
number
of
members,
and
it
comes
across
very
strongly
in
the
report.
I
wonder
if
it
comes
across
too
strongly
in
the
report,
because,
while
there
is
undoubtedly
a
strong
economic
case
for
reducing
the
gender
pay
gap,
as
has
been
demonstrated
time
and
time
again
by
numerous
studies,
this
is
not
news.
This
is
something
that
we
know
to
be
the
case.
Is
it
really
the
one
argument
that
we
should
be
relying
on
more
than
any?
F
Surely
we
can
agree
that
gender
inequality
is
in
principle
wrong
and
that
the
gender
pay
gap
is
one
expression
of
gender
inequality
in
our
society.
If
a
business
feels
that
it's
not
able
to
improve
its
own
economic
performance
by
reducing
the
gender
pay
gap
that
shouldn't
be
taken
as
a
justification
for
not
taking
action,
we
should
be
clear
about
the
economic
opportunities
from
reducing
and
eliminating
the
gender
pay
gap,
but
we
should
not
rely
solely
or
even
perhaps
prominently
on
their
economic
argument
for
doing
something
which
is
the
right
thing
in
principle.
F
So
I
say
that
the
gender
pay
gap
is
a
symptom
of
wider
societal
structural
inequalities
which
themselves
matter
and
require
to
be
addressed.
I
think
Richard
Lane
had
touched
on
this
in
talking
about
the
way
that
we
value
different
kinds
of
work,
the
kind
of
work
that
women
have
historically
done,
a
higher
proportion
than
men
has
been
undervalued
and
is
still
under
valued
and
so
simply
getting
more
women,
for
example,
into
high-value
careers
in
the
stem
industries,
for
example
great
good
thing
in
its
own
right.
F
F
If
we
want
to
close
that
gap
and
do
the
services
that
we
have
really
genuinely
meet
the
diverse
needs
of
all
women,
including
single
parents,
in
ninety,
two
percent
of
whom
are
women,
including
women,
returning
from
career
breaks,
who,
as
we
heard
earlier,
are
not
necessarily
looking
for
help
into
the
easiest
and
quickest
entry-level
job
they're,
looking
to
regain
and
return
to
a
meaningful
career
that
they
may
have
left
behind
before,
but
only
for
a
period
of
time.
We
should
be
giving
them
the
support
that
they
need
as
well.
F
Finally,
presiding
officer
I
would
make
the
case
that
the
government's
commitment
to
explore
and
fund
trials
of
a
citizens
income
is
also
a
critically
important
way
of
addressing
those
wider
structural
gender
inequalities
which
feeds
through
into
the
pay
gap
by
ensuring
that
all
people,
women
and
men
are
better
able
to
strike
their
own
balance
between
learning
working
volunteering,
caring
and
all
of
the
other
things
that
matter
in
our
lives.
Thank
you
very
much.
J
Thank
You
deputy
presiding
officer
I'd
like
to
start
by
thanking
Gordon
Lyndhurst
than
the
economy
committee
for
bringing
this
important
motion
and
its
report
to
Parliament
today.
I
congratulation
congratulate
each
of
them
on
the
work
they've
undertaken,
but,
like
others
in
this
debate,
I
find
it
disparity
after
30
18
years
of
devolution
and
a
range
of
debates,
we
must
still
hold
these
inquiries
and
look
to
close
a
gap
between
male
and
female
median
earnings.
J
The
committee
conservatively
estimates
to
stand
at
sixteen
percent
that
frustration
is
married
among
several
prominent
female
broadcasters
in
their
open
letter
to
the
director-general
of
the
BBC
Lord
Hall
earlier
in
the
summer
in
which
they
said
and
I
quote,
you
have
said
that
you
will
sort
out
the
gender
pay
gap
by
2020,
but
the
BBC
has
known
about
the
pay
disparity
for
years.
We
all
want
to
go
on
the
record
right
now
and
call
upon
you
to
act
now,
deputy
presiding
officer.
This
Parliament
has
known
about
that
disparity
for
the
entirety
of
its
existence.
J
It
is
time
for
us
to
act
now.
The
committee
rightly
point
to
the
fact
that
the
extent
of
the
gender
pay
gap
is
actually
quite
hard
to
calibrate
and
it
causes
are
difficult,
so
you
accurately
fathom,
given
particularly
the
250
employee
minimum
threshold
for
gender
pay
reporting
that
exists
currently.
As
such,
they
rightly
recommend
that
the
government
adopt
a
range
of
indicators
to
establish
patterns,
trends
and
hidden
obstacles
to
female
pay
progression
in
this
country.
Nevertheless,
the
committee
has
given
a
flavour
of
the
challenge
before
us.
J
Women
continue
to
be
concentrated
in
low
paid
industries
and
part-time
work
in
Scotland
last
year,
for
example,
40
percent
of
women
were
in
part-time
work
and
that's
78%
of
all
part-time
workers
in
this
country,
while
male
entrepreneurs
in
the
self-employed
workforce
appear
to
have
greater
ease
in
that
accessing
capital
than
their
female
counterparts.
Deputy
presiding
officer,
our
response
to
gender
inequality
in
the
workplace
cannot
solely
rest
on
the
calibration
of
pay
scales.
J
Since
the
exchange
of
human
labour
began
in
inbuilt,
systemic
barriers
have
existed
to
build
an
imbalance
in
opportunities
and
advantages
that
women
can
enjoy
away.
So
we
must
take
a
whole
system's
approach
to
reform
as
the
Deputy
Prime
Minister,
my
friend
and
colleague,
at
the
time,
Nick
Clegg
sought
to
change
the
narrative
around
gender
stereotypes
at
work
through
shared
parental
leave.
He
identified
maternity
or
even
just
the
potential
of
eternity
as
one
of
the
biggest
barriers
to
women's
progression
in
the
workplace,
just
despite
it
being
against
the
law.
J
We
know
that
employers
still
do
discriminate
against
women
in
recruitment
if
they
are
of
childbearing
age.
But
it's
when
children
are
born
that
the
gap
really
begins
to
grow,
with
women
being
passed
over,
as
we
have
heard
for
promotion
or
else
moving
necessarily
into
part-time
work.
As
part
of
his
justification
for
the
policy
of
shared
parental
leave,
Nick
Clegg
said
if
both
sexes
are
equally
likely
to
take
time
out
of
their
career,
to
look
after
young
children
and
if
both
are
equally
likely
to
go
part-time
to
help
them
juggle
work
and
home.
J
Indeed,
a
recent
survey
by
Hayes
recruitment
in
the
UK
found
that
nearly
two-thirds
of
workers
say
men
are
less
committed
to
their
career
if
they
should
take
their
share
of
shared
parental
leave.
This
Parliament
will
soon
have
an
opportunity
to
change
that
culture,
but
also
change
the
culture
of
those
organisations
in
public
control,
so
that
organizational
governance
reflects
wider
society
through
gender
balance,
we
will
set
a
new
standard
in
the
agenda.
Equality
in
the
workplace
bill
and
sorry
it
through
the
representation
on
public
boards
bill.
J
We
will
set
a
new
standard
in
gender
equality
in
the
workplace
and
challenge
industry
to
follow
that
lead.
We
also
need
to
do
more
with
childcare
and
extend
the
debate
far
beyond
the
public
funding
of
ours,
the
recommendations
and
maclean
commission,
or
for
a
kind
of
flexibility
directed
at
giving
parents
a
range
of
options
and
making
it
easier
for
women
in
particular
to
re-enter
and
remain
in
the
labour
market.
J
Until
we
get
this
right
combined
with
societal
pressures
around
expectations
of
motherhood,
then
they
will
continue
to
fall
behind
presiding
officer,
the
committee's
estimate
over
16
percent
gap
between
male
and
female
earnings.
That
I
alluded
to
at
the
top
of
my
remarks
is
more
than
10
percent
adrift
of
the
5
percent
gap
that
exists
in
Denmark
and
whilst
that
needle
has
shifted
over
time,
it
is
clear
that
our
efforts
have
not
been
equal
to
the
challenge.
J
L
You
presiding
officer,
I
want
to
first
of
all
thank
everyone
from
the
public
sphere,
who
engaged
with
the
committee
through
their
submissions
and
on
social
media
on
their
gender
pay
gap.
Experience
those
testimonies
really
informed.
Our
questioning
and
the
report
and
the
best
reports
came
out
of
inquiries
where
the
people
of
Scotland
have
been
very
involved.
I'd
also
like
to
point
to
the
amount
of
media
interest.
We
got
into
this
issue
as
a
result
of
an
enquiry
again
when
the
media
pay
attention.
L
It
means
that
what
we
do
permeates
out
into
civic
society
I
was
on
to
col.caf
women
sessions
on
this
very
issue
and
really
Scotland
and
on
women's
Araucana
in
Jackie.
There
you
go
talking
and
I
know
that
other
committee
members
were
interviewed
too,
and
that
engagement
prompts
a
national
conversation
and
that's
what
this
issue
desperately
needs.
Now
what
to
use
my
time,
Minister
bate,
to
talk
about
the
limitations
of
the
gender
pay
gap,
reporting
obligations.
L
As
we
know,
there's
new
reporting
legislations
in
the
UK
government
will
affect
companies
over
over
250
employees
and
I
remain
unconvinced
on
the
effectiveness
of
that
legislation
and
Scotland
for
a
number
of
reasons.
Most
obviously,
the
legal
duty
only
compels
very
large
companies
to
report
a
gender
pay
gap
and
in
Scotland
is
SMEs
which
make
up
the
vast
percentage
of
our
economy.
Now,
there's
a
small
farmers,
small
business
owner
I
completely
understand
the
pressures
are
formal
and
compulsory
reporting
puts
on
a
very
small
business
and
I.
L
L
L
Accept
that
and
then
actually
having
this
discussion
by
Thursday
and
then
one
where
the
threshold
should
be
I,
don't
think
it's
exactly
an
onerous
thing
to
do.
It's
certainly
the
right
thing
to
do
and
thinking
that
this
may
possibly
be
done
through
existing
channels.
For
example,
my
agenda
pig-out
report
be
asked
for
in
a
public
procurement
situation
or
in
a
Scottish
Enterprise.
Our
high
account
management
situation.
If
a
company
wants
access
to
ten
different
public
contracts
or
business
support,
then
adding
stipulations
lumisphere
work
reporting
is
not
a
new
idea.
L
The
effect
of
this
would
reach
even
further
if
there
were
demands
and
supply
chain
from
those
who
procurement
contracts
to
but
reporting
can
just
reveal
the
problem,
as
the
legal
duty
to
report
doesn't
compel
companies
to
put
any
kind
of
action
plan
in
place
if
the
gap
is
significantly
wide,
and
this
was
apparent
in
one
employer
that
I
visited,
who
were
concentrating
and
getting
the
report
together.
That
self,
but
had
not
given
any
thought
to
what
they
might
do
to
address
what
was
in
that
report
going
forward
in
our
report.
L
We
not
only
encourage
all
businesses
reporting
to
create
an
action
plan,
but
ask
the
government
to
give
them
guidance
on
what
that
action
plan
could
include.
I
suggest
any
company
looking
to
address
the
gender
pay
gap
could
do
a
lot
worse
than
reading
our
committees
report
or
viewing
some
of
the
evidence
given
to
us
by
organizations
such
as
closed
the
gap
in
gender,
women's
enterprise
Scotland
or
the
Fair
Work
conventionally
and
I'd,
like
any
guidance
that
the
government
may
introduce
on
this
to
be
rolled
out
to
all
businesses,
not
just
those
of
250
plus
employees.
L
My
colleagues
have
talked
about
some
of
the
report's
findings
and
why
closing
the
gap
was
important
and
what
mechanisms
companies
have
used
that
have
been
effective
in
closing
the
gap
and
I'm
not
going
to
list
them
all
again.
The
company's
doing
all
these
progressive
fear
and
innovative
things.
The
right
things
as
Patrick
Harvey
has
says:
we're
enthusiastic
about
what
it
meant
for
them
and
their
employees.
L
But
we
need
to
recognize
that
for
some
reluctant
employers,
our
business
and
financial
argument,
one
which
I'm
confident
will
be
compelling-
needs
to
be
made
a
company
without
agenda.
Gender
pay
gap
is
a
better
performing
company.
It
attracts
and
keeps
Talent.
It
has
diversity
of
approaches,
views
and
skills
that
makes
your
work
and
products
better.
Just
these
two
things
have
a
massive
effect
in
the
bottom
line.
L
It's
the
right
thing
to
do,
but
for
those
who
are
fruit,
for
whom
that's
not
a
motivating
factor-
and
let's
face
that
there
are
some
people
out
there
like
that.
It's
also
the
smart
thing
to
do
in
closing.
I
want
to
say
to
those
companies
who
have
closed
the
gap
and
who
are
working
hard
to
close
the
gap
spread.
The
word
on
the
financial
and
business
benefits
analyze
your
bottom
line
improvements
and
tell
the
world
gender
pay
gap.
Reporting
is
in
this,
isn't
in
itself
the
answer.
It's
you
who
is
the
answer?
L
K
N
You
very
much
presiding
officer,
deputy
sari
presiding
officer,
I,
welcome
this
opportunity
to
speak
about
the
economy,
jobs
and
fair
work
committees.
Recent
report,
as
a
new
addition
to
the
ranks
of
the
committee
I,
was
not
directly
involved
in
the
gender
pay
inquiry,
but
I'm
pleased
to
congratulate
body
of
work
they've
produced
and
on
the
contributions
they've
made
today.
I
welcome
the
continuing
work
to
address
the
historic
injustice
of
the
gender
pay
gap
and
of
unequal
pay
between
men
and
women.
N
There
could
be
a
few
things
as
transparently
unfair
as
failing
to
be
paid
the
same
money
for
doing
the
same
job,
not
because
of
what
you
do
because
of
who
you
are,
but
the
focus
of
the
committee
went
wider
than
this.
The
differences
in
opportunities,
or
at
least
perceptions
of
opportunities
that
have
gendered
element,
the
distinctions
of
types
of
occupation
that
still
affect
even
our
youngest
generation
of
working
people
and
the
particular
issues
around
having
a
family
and
the
choices
that
people
can
make
there
being
some
significant
progress
in
recent
times.
N
From
years
this
year
on
was
larger.
Businesses
will
be
obliged
to
publish
their
gender
pay
gap
figures.
A
significant
step
in
increasing
transparency
and
ensuring
that,
where
issues
exist,
they
are
addressed
at
the
very
top
end
of
the
employment
market.
The
proportion
of
women
on
footsie
100
boards
has
more
than
doubled
since
2011,
but
in
the
wider
economy,
women
have
often
found
themselves
pushed
into
lower
paying
jobs.
There
are
several
possible
explanations
from
sharing
potential
responsibilities
to
issues
around
skills
and
I
intend
to
touch
on
that.
In
a
moment.
N
We
know
that
for
many
of
these
women
increases
to
the
national
living
wage
and
taking
many
out
of
paying
income
tax
altogether
have
provided
an
additional
degree
of
financial
security.
But
the
question
of
occupational
segregation
remains
significant.
To
take
one
example,
which
has
been
covered
already
today,
the
number
of
women
entering
STEM
jobs
remains
worryingly
small.
Despite
the
often
higher
pay
and
opportunities
these
professions
the
professions
can
provide.
There
is
precious
little
evidence
that
this
will
be
remedied
in
the
near
future.
N
Physics,
computing
and
other
technical
subjects
still
see
a
low
level
of
involvement
from
young
women
in
schools.
If
anything,
this
seems
to
drop
off
by
the
time
they
have
reached
university
colleges
or
apprenticeships.
We've
seen
cuts
to
STEM
education
in
recent
years,
and
it
must
be
as
clear
as
day
that
we
require
more
stem
teachers
in
Scotland
and
work
to
reverse
some
of
the
harm
done
to
our
colleges,
but
as
well
as
that,
more
girls
must
be
involved
in
stem
from
the
earliest
ages.
N
To
achieve
that,
STEM
subjects
must
be
promoted
as
a
viable
career
option
for
young
women.
This
requires
closer
working
between
schools
and
Industry
and
a
far
greater
focus
on
careers
guidance.
Often
very
blunt.
Gender
stereotypes
are
typically
in
place
for
children
at
a
very
ergy,
very
early
age,
which
can
determine
what
careers
children
look
towards.
We
can
only
address
this
problem
by
tackling
it
at
a
similarly
early
age,
ensuring
that
all
children
are
open
to
the
breadth
of
careers
that
are
available
to
them.
This
is
part
of
a
slightly
wider
pond.
N
Scottish
Conservatives
have
also
previously
raised
concerns
about
diversity
and
the
modern
apprenticeships
programme
in
Scotland,
gender
differences
arise
not
only
across
the
scheme
as
a
whole,
but
also
when
broken
down
to
individual
frameworks.
Some
of
the
very
traditional
divisions
remain.
The
committee
noted
that
little
progress
had
be
made
here
and
by
some
measures
it
is
getting
worse.
The
delivering
of
young
workforce
target
to
reduce
60%
the
percentage
of
modern
apprenticeships
frameworks
where
the
gender
balance
is
75,
25
or
worse
by
21,
20
21
is
far
from
ambitious.
N
Yet
there
seems
to
be
problems
in
making
modest
steps
in
that
direction.
Perhaps
the
rollout
the
foundation
foundation
and
prejudice
ships
across
Scotland
and
the
closer
links
with
schools,
schools
presents
an
opportunity
to
challenge
that
dynamic.
A
feature
of
the
economy
committees
inquiry
was
evidence
that
the
problems
leading
to
women
receiving
lower
play
rope.
A
more
present
sorry,
are
more
present
in
the
highlands
and
islands
and
in
Scotland
as
a
whole.
Highlands
and
Islands
enterprises
submission
showed
gender
segregation
of
careers
and
sectors
were
more
pronounced
in
the
region.
N
Heis
research
also
showed
that
women
are
still
more
aware
of
jobs
and
sectors
that
are
perceived
to
be
lower
paid.
The
contribution
that
under
underemployment,
along
women,
has
masseria
amongst
women
as
the
differences
in
pay
is
also
compounded
in
more
rural
areas,
with
high
pointing
to
multi
occupational
work
and
the
level
of
part-time
and
seasonal
employment
as
being
significant.
N
Tackling
the
technology
gender
gap
together,
which
high
skills,
development,
Scotland
and
other
bodies
are
working
together
on
it,
makes
many
of
the
points
that
I
have
spoken
about
today,
and
its
conclusions
are
very
work.
Much
worth
looking
at,
however,
I
do
question
where
the
identified
problems
are
being
addressed
for
Scotland's
young
people
in
practice
and
the
level
of
resource
being
directed.
So.
To
conclude,
many
of
these
long-standing
problems
will
require
real
focus
and
resources
to
address
the
benefits,
however,
will
not
just
play
to
individuals
but
the
wider
economy
to
again
I.
K
O
Obviously,
eyes
are
consequence
of
brexit,
as
a
report
highlights
that
our
definitional
issues
I,
don't
quantifying
the
gender
pay
gap,
use
of
mean
on
meeting
weekly
or
early
with
or
without
overtime,
and
then
pact
of
lourdes
early
rates
for
part-time
work,
ohmic
quantification
and
hence
international
comparisons,
difficult
something
that
requires
more
work.
We
need
to
understand
who
in
the
world
is
better
at
us
and
to
seek
to
learn
from
them.
O
One
thing
we
can
see
as
wait:
variations
in
the
data
there's
a
clear
age-related
impact,
with
the
pay
gap
being
significantly
smaller
for
age
groups
under
40
than
those
above
follow.
This
is
a
persistent
phenomena,
a
consequence
of
maternity
leave
and
return
to
work
burials
or
a
positive
trend
such
as
we
see
greatly
increasing
numbers
of
young
women
entering
professions
such
as
the
law,
which
will
consequently
Empire
older
age,
cohorts
in
coming
decades.
It's
not
yet
clear.
This
is
one
area
where
more
understanding
would
be
valuable,
well,
examples
of
pay
and
equality.
O
We
firmament
paid
less
than
men
for
the
same
or
similar
work
still
exist.
The
key
drivers
of
the
gender
pay
gap
are
highlighted
as
been
around
occupational
segregation,
gender
variations
and
part-time
employment
rates
and
deferential
promotion
rates.
Occupational
segregation,
as
a
report
highlights,
is
often
a
consequence
of
gender-based
stereotypes
which
can
influence
from
an
early
age
impact
in
career
choices.
My
own
four
children,
a
lawyer,
a
vet,
an
engineer
and
an
economist
and
no
prizes
for
guessing
which
to
Aligarh
owes
an
epic
feel
any
McKee
household.
O
So
don't
go
taking
any
lessons
from
me
on
gender
stereotypes,
but
despite
my
own
failings,
this
is
an
area
that
requires
focus
when
were
expected
to
go
into
the
caring
professions
and
men
entertain
equal
work.
The
focus
on
women
into
STEM
careers
is
critical
or
thought
of
us.
Despite
us
focus
been
on
the
agenda
for
some
considerable
time
and
many
areas,
limited
progress
has
been
made.
My
own
engineering
class,
only
10
percent
were
women
and
gender
balance
was
well
understood.
Even
then,
as
an
area
where
improvement
was
needed.
O
35
years
later
and
progress
has
been
limited.
However,
the
experience
of
the
law
and
some
medical
disciplines
shows
that
progress
can
and
has
been
made
in
some
areas,
but
this
is
a
two-way
street.
More
women
enter
stem
means
more
men
and
traditionally
female
dominated
jobs,
for
example
in
the
care
and
Ella
learning
sectors.
As
a
report
highlights
seen
more
men
in
the
traditional
female
dominated
career
type
roles
will
help
us
to
break
the
ideological
link
between
women
and
care
or
the
idea
of
the
female
as
caregiver
and
there's
something
that
length
the
child.
O
Brilliant
career
gaps
for
women
are
inevitable
as
another
outdated
gender
stereotype.
That
needs
to
be
challenged
as
a
report
point
so
in
Scotland,
in
2016,
8
%
of
women
aged
16
to
64
would
economically
an
active
because
they
were
looking
after
house
or
the
family
compared
to
only
1%
of
men.
I
was
fortunate
enough.
In
my
own
children
were
preschool
to
be
working
a
chef
part
and
allowed
me
to
take
on
responsibility
for
much
of
our
childcare.
Well,
mrs.
McKee
returned
to
fill
teamwork.
Most
are
not
so
fortunate.
O
The
report
also
raises
other
important
issues
such
as
flexible
working
or
encouraging
female
entrepreneurship
work.
I'm
happy
to
support
as
part
of
the
women
Enterprise
cross-party
group
and
some
early
presiding
officer,
I
welcome
their
support
and
there
are
some
clear
areas
were
more
understanding
of
the
data
and
the
steps
we
need
to
take
to
make
progress
as
required.
It
enables
us
to
the
level
of
societal
changes
and
the
economic
benefits
of
closing
the
gender
pay
gap.
Thank.
K
E
I,
don't
need
a
lozenge
either.
The
presiding
officer,
speaker
after
speaker,
has
acknowledged
that
women's
employment
is
more
precarious
than
males.
We
are
the
part-time
low
paid
workforce,
many
of
us
on
zero-hours
contracts
and
employed
in
the
gig
economy,
more
likely
to
be
consumers
of
public
services
more
likely
to
be
in
poverty,
more
likely
to
be
in
receipt
of
Social
Security
benefits
and
for
far
too
many
women,
underemployment,
working
well
below
their
qualification
level.
That
is
such
a
waste
of
talent
and
a
waste
for
our
economy.
E
As
I
said
earlier,
closing
the
gender
pay
gap
would
inject
17
billion
pounds
into
the
Scottish
economy
that
matters
even
more
now
because
of
the
fiscal
framework,
because
if
we
do
not
sustain
the
same
or
higher
levels
of
grow
than
the
rest
of
the
UK,
then
we
might
beyond
the
end
of
a
block
grant
reduction.
So,
let's
take
a
year-on-year
comparison.
Scotland's
economy
grew
by
0.2%
over
the
last
year.
The
equivalent
UK
growth
was
1.5
percent.
This
may
have
serious
implications
for
what
we
received
through
the
Block,
Grant
and
I.
E
Don't
think
the
Scottish
government
have
woken
up
to
that,
so
closing
the
gender
pay
gap
would
be
a
no-brainer
if
we're
serious
about
the
economy
and
about
our
long-term
finances.
The
causes
of
the
pay
gap
are
common
across
the
world,
but
some
have
been
better
than
us
at
closing
that
that
gap,
Belgium
Luxembourg
Norway,
to
name
but
a
few.
We
need
to
understand
what
they
do
that
works
and
copy
them
unashamedly.
Let
me
highlight
some
of
the
key
recommendations
that
many
have
touched
on
across
the
chamber.
E
Firstly,
a
national
strategy
with
an
action
plan
and
measurable
targets.
It
makes
sense
when
you
have
a
complex
and
interconnected
set
of
problems
that
you
need
to
have
a
plan.
The
response
from
the
government
is
to
have
a
scoping
exercise
to
determine
feasibility
is
a
little
weak.
Why
can't
you
just
say?
Yes,
there
will
be
a
national
strategy
and
then
work
through
what
it
needs
to
cover.
Secondly,
there
is
the
role
of
enterprise
agencies.
E
Women
are
949
percent
of
startups,
but
3.4
percent
of
gross
companies
for
years
research
undertaken
by
women's
Enterprise,
Scotland
and
others
has
pointed
to
the
need
for
gender.
Specific
support
for
women
led
businesses,
but
it
really
hasn't
been
provided.
If
GDP
in
Scotland
reflected
women
starting
up
in
business
at
the
same
rate
as
men,
then
we
would
contribute
7.6
billion
pounds
to
the
Scottish
economy
was
not
to
like
about
that.
The
Scottish
Government
has
pledged
to
double
the
women's
enterprise
budget.
E
It's
only
200,000
pounds
at
the
moment,
just
think
what
we
could
do
if
we
gave
them
more
money,
never
mind
mainstreaming
consideration
for
women's
enterprise
and
tackling
women's
economic
inequality
as
part
of
our
enterprise
agencies
and
whilst
on
the
enterprise
agencies,
we
should
put
our
money
where
our
mouth
is.
The
Scottish
government
should
redesign
the
business
pledge
is
not
fit
for
purpose
on
gender
equality
and
for
those
businesses
they
get
millions
of
pounds
in
regional,
selective
assistance.
We
should
be
asking
for
gender
pay
gap,
reports
and
action
plans
as
standard
I.
E
Don't
think
the
Scottish
government's
response
agreed
to
this.
Where
is
the
political
will
and
the
priority
in
this?
If
we
do
embrace
these
recommendations,
presiding
officer,
littel
will
change.
Gillian
Martin
was
right
to
talk
about
the
limitations
of
gender
pay
gap
reporting,
as
proposed
by
the
UK
government.
The
Scottish
economy
is
made
up
by
majority
of
companies
with
less
than
250
employees.
So
the
new
requirement
to
report
the
gap
won't
touch
them.
She
was
also
right
to
ask
how
we
could
use
procurement
or
even
enterprise
agency
account
managed
companies
to
make
a
difference.
E
I'm
not
sure
I
saw
a
really
positive
response
from
the
Scottish
Government.
On
that
close,
the
gap
tell
us
that
existing
responses
to
tackling
the
pay
gap
are
insufficient.
They,
together
within
gender,
are
very
clear
about
the
need
for
a
national
strategy.
So
tell
us
Minister.
Are
you
going
to
do
this?
I
said
the
Scottish
government's
response
was
weak.
I'd
rather
be
wrong
about
that,
and
let
me
tell
you
why,
because
your
response
refers
to
the
Fair
Work
Convention.
E
It
refers
to
inclusive
growth,
the
enterprise
agency
activity,
the
business
pledge
all
in
in
in
and
of
themselves
positive
initiatives,
but
they
do
not
really
engage
with
tackling
the
gender
pay
gap.
So,
let's
get
behind
the
committee
report.
It
is
bold.
It
is
ambitious.
It's
challenging
to
us
all
and
I
want
the
Scottish
Government
to
be
equally
bold
and
ambitious.
We
have
a
chance
to
change
this
for
generations
of
women,
but
you
know
if
you
just
want
to
carry
on
as
before.
E
K
My
goodness,
you
didn't
use
the
entire
seven
minutes,
there's
a
star
Oh
No.
Thank
you.
Can
I
just
remind
members
that
the
use
of
you
and
yours-
you
speak
in
this
Parliament
through
the
chair
and
it's
just
a
little
habit,
we're
all
slipping
into
which
you're
going
to
slip
out
of
can
I
know
you
call
upon
Alison
Harris,
please
the
Corsican
services
up
to
seven
minutes.
Please.
P
Deputy
presiding
officer
in
closing
this
debate
for
the
Scottish
Conservatives
can
I
say
just
how
apparent
it
is,
but,
across
this
chamber,
members
are
united
in
our
determination
to
close
the
gender
pay
gap,
even
if
there
are
slight
differences
in
how
that
is
to
be
achieved
at
there.
Excite
can
I
also
play
tribute
to
my
colleague,
Gordon
Lyndhurst,
and
to
all
the
members
of
the
economy,
jobs
and
Fair
Work
committee
for
working
so
diligently
to
produce
the
report
before
us.
The
Scottish
Conservatives
welcomed
both
the
report
and
the
recommendations.
P
Women
in
the
workforce
continued
to
be
concentrated
in
low
paid
industries
and
part-time
work.
We
share
the
view
of
many
of
those
individuals
who
who
tweeted
their
opinion
from
valuing
women's
work,
means
recognizing
the
value
of
women's
contributions
to
the
economy,
to
when
women
thrive.
We
all
benefit
and
many
other
contributions
that
were
made.
P
Likewise.
Many
of
the
contributions
that
have
been
made
today
by
the
speakers
across
the
chamber
have
highlighted
a
lot
of
aims
that
many
of
us
share
to
close
this
gender
pay
gap.
We
heard
from
Jamie
how,
through
Johnson
on
the
evidence
that
the
gender
pay
gap
is
particularly
marked
in
the
Highlands
and
Islands
Dean
lockhardt
pointed
out
that
the
gender
pay
gap
is
not
a
unique
problem
to
Scotland
Oliver
Mandel
highlighted
the
value
of
seeing
women
occupying
leading
and
public
roles.
P
Jackie
Baillie
expressed
concern
at
the
state
of
the
Scottish
economy,
stating
that,
if
growth
suffers,
this
affects
the
gender
pay
gap.
Ash
denim
mentioned
the
PWC
report
and
the
motherhood
penalty,
something
that
I
will
come
back
to
later
on.
In
my
speech,
Alex
Coe
Hamilton
discussed
a
whole
system's
approach
to
gender
discrimination
and
many
other
speakers.
P
However,
not
only
is
closing
the
gap,
the
right
thing
to
do
as
Patrick
Harvey
said,
but
the
potential
economic
benefits
of
doing
so
are
being
highlighted
by
a
number
of
bodies,
including
the
CBI
Scotland,
who,
in
their
evidence
to
the
committee,
wrote
closing
the
gender
pay
gap,
increases
the
competitiveness
of
individual
companies
and
the
profitability
of
the
economy
as
a
whole.
This
view,
together
with
further
anecdotal
evidence,
is
positive,
but,
as
the
committee
notes,
more
study
needs
to
be
done
to
confirm
the
correlation
between
bottom-line
improvements
and
closing
the
gender
pay
gap.
P
We
have
heard
other
speakers
highlight
as
a
nation.
We
need
to
do
more
to
encourage
more
girls
into
it.
To
study
science
and
technology
subjects
with
women
holding
only
18%
of
jobs
in
well-paid
technology
sector
and
a
mere
9%
in
engineering,
huge
scope
exists
for
girls
who
are
able
to
study
these
subjects.
In
2015
education,
Scotland
highlighted
that
girls
made
up
only
20%
of
advanced,
higher
computing
and
28%
of
the
then-new
higher
physics
course.
P
P
P
K
C
You
very
much
today,
nor
second
I
began
by
thanking
members
for
their
contributions.
Today,
I
think
has
been
a
broad
agreement.
I
want
to
make
very
clear
that
I,
don't
know
anyone
in
this
chamber,
not
least
the
Scottish
comers,
not
serious
about
this
agenda.
I
be
creative,
Jackie,
Baillie
fuels.
Our
Sports
has
been
weak
she's,
entitled
to
her
a
perspective,
of
course,
as
an
talent
component.
C
I
would
expect
that
in
pushing
us,
it's
really
more
of
had
I
look
over
again
how
we
have
responded
to
recommendations
of
the
committee,
and
my
observation
would
be
that
virtually
all
of
the
committee's
recommendations-
Italian
tile
with
what
could
we
are
taking
for
now
clearly
they'll,
be
areas
that
we
can
look
at
again
and
always
be
willing
to
do
that.
But
let
me
agree
with
Jackie
Baillie
at
the
point.
C
If
she
made
that
there
is
an
important
reason
for
us
to
be
engaged
and
that's
agenda,
she
referred
to
her
a
daughter,
Michael
Harmon
to
the
test.
I
have
a
daughter
as
well
and
I.
Don't
want
her
to
grow
up
in
a
society.
No,
let
me
pause
it
and
oppose
change.
I
want
her
to
grow
up
in
a
society
where
that
has
no
agenda
a
pickup.
That's
my
aspiration
for
heart
for
all
of
our
doctors.
Of
course,
some
of
the
the
the
issues
that
a
processed
are
entrenched.
They
are
long-standing,
they
are
attitudinal.
C
It
starts
very
early
when
our
children
are
very
young.
I
have
to
say
thought
if
I've
accused,
probably
a
lot
of
hardships
and
she's
very
proud
of
all
of
the
achievements
of
his
children,
but
I
would
suspect
that
even
all
of
us
who've
spoken
unless
the
beat
who
are
I
believe
totally
utterly
committed
to
the
agenda.
We
have
spoken
about
today,
a
presenting
officer
well
ourselves,
be
susceptible
to
lapsing
and
to
using
language,
providing
toys
and
all
the
rest
of
it
that
sometimes
reinforced
those
gender
state
steps.
C
So
we
always
have
to
remains
and
start
with
ourselves
that
we
it
must
seek
to
avoid.
Today.
Let
me
pack
up
and
some
of
the
issues
in
the
time
I
have
available
have
been
raised
and
the
and
the
debate
Dean
Lockhart
mentioned
the
the
Yuki
government's
private
sector,
gender
pay
gap,
but
a
regulations
I
would
welcome
them
as
at
least
an
acknowledgment
about
the
systemic
P
and
equality
of
women
experience.
But
I
would
agree
it
with
jelly
Martin
Jackie
Baillie.
They
are
not
enough
themselves
likely
to
drive
the
change
we
need.
C
They
are
rather
limited
in
terms
of
the
threshold
of
250
employees,
which
will
exclude
the
vast
majority
of
private
sector
companies.
Most
third
sector
organizations
here
and
gone
clearly
we're
not
able
to
alter
in
that
legislation,
as
you
said,
but
what
we
can
do
is
lead
by
example.
We
have
a
significantly
low
threshold
for
our
public
agencies
here
and
it's
gone.
Joey
Martin
Jackie
Baillie
spoke
about
the
efforts
we
could
be
taking
through
our
enterprise
agencies
around
the
provision
of
regional,
selective
assistance
grants
or
a
current
managed
companies.
C
We
are
good
through
the
enterprise
and
skills
review
right
now.
What
I
will
see
is
that
we
are
the
place
that
contains
the
explore
whether
agencies,
how
we
can
increase
the
number
of
businesses
who
produce
pick
up
a
reports.
We
are
looking
at
a
very
seasoned,
but
what
they
can
do
right
now,
of
course,
as
st.
post
businesses
to
relevant
guidance
available,
for
example,
cause
the
gaps
think
business
toolkit,
which
is
available
to
to
all
companies
of
all
sizes
and
I'll,
come
back
to
that
a
short
moment
around.
C
Why
they're
talking
about
this
in
economic
terms?
As
from
my
perspective,
important
Asha
Denham,
mentioned
that
the
motherhood
a
penalty
we
I'm
acutely
aware
of
some
of
the
issues
that
drive
that
that's
why
we
have
established
a
working
group
to
take
action.
They
tackle
claims
to
maturity,
discriminations,
a
group
that
I
shared
involving
a
man,
even
quite
a
witnesses,
say
the
NHS
police,
cotton
equality
and
Human
Rights
Commission.
C
It's
why
we've
established
a
woman
returners
program
I,
would
accept
willingly
accept
as
limited
at
the
stage
is
designed
to
pilot
initiative
so
that
we
can
see
good
practice.
I
have
to
see
right
here
on.
Oh,
it
will
not
be
it'll,
never
be
something
that
the
government
can
lead
and
its
entirety.
We're
gonna
have
to
require
all
sectors
protect
with
the
private
sector
to
be
willing
to
step
up
to
the
police.
C
D
C
Well,
we
have,
of
course,
there
are
a
clear
commitment
to
support
the
full
time
equivalent
police
116,000.
That's
what
we've
done.
We,
you
know
just
this
earlier
last
month.
It
rather
not.
This
was
last
month
I,
honest
affection.
What
force
Development
Fund,
which
will
allow
employers
to
come
forward
it
to
support
those
who
need
to
be
upscale,
then
the
workplace.
Many
women
will
benefit
by
that
we've
refocused
and
dividual
landing
counts.
C
The
individual
training
and
of
poco
interest
can
be
delivered
through
the
college
network,
which
can
be
designed
to
support
the
upscaling
of
those
who
are
those
women
who
are
a
little
people
asking
how
to
spoke
about
the
need
to
support
a
flexible
working
that
as
an
agenda
that
we
are
signed
up
to
we
fund
and
participate
and
family-friendly
workings
gone.
She
referred
to
the
recommendation
by
the
committee
that
we,
as
a
government,
our
agencies,
also
first
discussed
this
palm
I.
C
Don't
think
that
presenting
officer
with
late
me
to
veer
and
through
what
the
Scottish
Parliament
do
I'm
sure
that
parliamentary
authorities
will
reflect
the
recommendation
as
well,
but
it
asks
for
all
of
us
to
share
rules
that
advertised
as
flexible,
agile
or
part-time
unless
there's
a
good
business
reason
not
to
do
so.
All
Scottish
government
staff,
including
senior
self
service,
encouraged
to
participate
in
a
flexible
working
hours
scheme.
We
require
own
managers
to
consider
all
folks
were
working
requests
objectively
and
with
its
sensitivity.
C
C
C
We
have
provided
the
authorities
additional
money
to
it:
1
million
Poston,
based
in
their
first
phase
of
the
workforce
expansion
this
year,
we've
got
a
commitment
to
see
an
additional
435
graduates
working
and
not
studies
in
the
most
deprived
community
by
August,
20
89
and
a
second
was
Billy
to
support.
This
commitment
provide
him
1.5
million
pounds
of
additional
funding.
Today
it's
got
its
funding,
constant
reduced
teacher
training
and
child
killer
least
the
Graduate
police's
skills.
C
They
don't
Scotland
are
providing
training
opportunities
for
child
care,
with
a
commitment
to
pay
a
living
wage
to
almost
delivering
it
funded
entitlements.
So
I
don't
want
anyone
to
be
under
the
impression
that
this
is
not
our
sector
I
take
seriously
and
in
relation
to
Patrick
Harvey's
language.
I,
don't
want
to
undervalue
that
states
and
parts.
We
need
to
switch
some
of
the
language
we
use.
C
C
C
Officer
Richard
Leonard
was
quite
right
to
identify
the
need
for
us
to
tackle
low
pay.
We've
done
very
well
and
Scott
in
terms
of
80%
of
our
populations
paid
at
least
the
living
wage
or
more,
but
I
utterly
recognize
that
remaining
a
20%
as
who
you
need
to
focus
on,
though,
and
that
does
represent
women
and
low
paid.
What
more
and
then
men
we
are
promoting
the
living
wage
I
want
to
see
more
than
an
unprincipled
commitment
to
paying
the
living
wage
to
see
a
real,
hard
and
fast
commitment.
I
think
mr.
C
C
Final
point,
present
officer,
Patrick
Harvey,
was
right
to
see
about
the
intrinsic
good
and
self-evident
what
of
causing
the
peak
out
I
totally
believe
at
that
point,
but
as
important.
We
talked
about
that
in
terms
of
an
economic
imperative
and
it's
very
much
the
same
with
the
field
walk
agenda.
When
we
talk
about
payment
or
living
wage
flex,
walking
involved
in
the
workplace,
it
increases
retention,
reduced
absenteeism,
increase
productivity,
causing
the
pcap
can
achieve,
and.
M
Can
also
a
just
start
off
on
out
very
consensual
note
by
thanking
everyone,
who's
taking
part
in
the
debate
today,
but
also
to
emphasize
our
thanks
as
a
committee
for
the
wide
range
of
witnesses
who
took
part
at
the
committee.
We
spent
a
considerable
amount
of
time
on
this.
We
also
went
out
and
visited
in
subgroups
quite
a
number
of
businesses
all
around
the
country,
and
that
was
tremendously
helpful,
certainly
for
myself.
M
I
mean
it
has
to
be
accepted
that
a
some
committee
members
are
more
consensual
than
others
and
I
shall
leave
it
to
members
to
decide
who
I
might
be
referring
to
if
I
can
a
start
off
with
a
few
points.
Generally,
that
the
convener,
on
behalf
of
the
committee
was
not
able
to
spend
a
lot
of
time
on
and
then
I
would
like
to
mention
it
some
of
the
individual
contributions
that
people
have
made
it.
M
Firstly,
occupational
segregation
which
has
been
mentioned
by
a
number
of
people,
including
a
close
the
gap
in
their
response
and
throat,
is
enquiry.
The
committee
is
sought
to
understand
the
challenges
that
women
working
across
both
the
public
and
the
private
sector
still
face
and,
as
the
convener
said
in
his
remarks,
the
pay
gap
impacts
on
women
at
all
stages
of
their
working
lives,
and
the
committee
had
many
reasons
for
this.
M
Occupational
segregation
is
a
key
factor
in
causing
the
gender
pay
gap
with
women
historically
clustered
in
sectors
traditionally
low
paid
sometimes
called
the
five
Cs
cleaning,
kiran
Catering
clerical
cashiering,
and
this
pattern
sadly
continues.
There
are
fewer
women
in
higher
paid
sectors.
Such
an
engineering,
IT
technology
and
equate
Scotland
told
the
committee
as
I
think
has
been
referred
to
the
only
18
percent
of
technical
jobs
and
9
percent
of
engineering
jobs
are
held
by
women
and
Alison
Harris.
It
made
quite
a
reference
to
that.
M
The
committee
heard
quite
a
lot
about
the
leaky
pipeline
and
if
people
don't
look
at
anything
else
in
the
report
is
worthwhile.
Looking
at
these
two
infographics,
which
talk
about
how
even
when
we
start
off
well,
there
is
a
drift
a
through
the
system
and
women,
especially
if
they
take
a
career
break,
can
fall
out
of
certain
sectors.
Stem
is
an
area
with
high
paying
jobs
and
increasing
opportunities.
So
plugging
this
leaky
pipeline
is
an
essential
part
of
reducing
the
gender
pay
gap.
M
Some
of
the
factors
witnesses
said
caused
leaks
throughout
the
pipeline,
our
starting
school,
when
very
early
young
children
are
seeing
that
there
are
boys
and
girls
jobs,
lack
of
role,
models
in
the
STEM
industries,
with
fewer
women
in
senior
positions
and,
of
course,
difficulties.
As
has
been
said
in
returning
to
the
workforce.
Now,
apprenticeships
has
been
mentioned
by
a
number
of
people,
including
the
minister
and
Jamie
Halcro
Johnston,
and
the
committee
noted
the
successes
of
the
modern
apprenticeship
model
in
providing
opportunities
for
young
people
and
employers
alike.
M
But
despite
considerable
efforts,
little
progress
has
been
made
in
addressing
occupational
segregation
with
the
modern
apprenticeship
system.
For
example,
in
2015-16
there
were
no
female
apprentices
and
civil
engineering
specialism
within
construction,
and
the
committee
notes
work
being
done
by
skills
development
Scotland,
which
is
very
much
welcomed.
The
reporting
legislation
has
largely
been
a
touched
on
the
protec
by
Julian
Martin,
who
spent
most
of
her
speech
on
that,
and
we
did
hear
quite
a
lot
of
evidence
around
the
fact
that
the
UK
will
require
250
staff,
a
and
above
to
report,
but
that
does
leave
I.
M
Now
I
think
Scottish
Enterprise
in
each
ie
do
have
a
slightly
difficult
job,
so
I've
got
some
sympathy
for
them,
but
I
think
we
were
unhappy
about
their
attitude.
I
think
other
groups
accepted
there
was
a
problem
and
they
wanted
to
challenge
it,
but
we
did
at
times
get
the
impression
from
se,
especially
that
they
wanted
to
attract
in
business
and
they
didn't
want
to
put
off
business
by
saying
things
to
them
like
they
had
to
have
it
more
women
in
their
organization.
M
Can
I
just
touch
on
some
of
the
things
that
people
have
said
in
the
final
couple
of
minutes.
God'll,
in
particularly
emphasized
a
the
difficulties
of
measuring
the
gap,
and
that
this
is
complex
and
I
was
glad
that
the
minister
appreciated
and
agreed
with
that
point
as
well.
It
Jackie
Baillie
in
her
two
speeches,
I
talked
was
perhaps
one
of
the
more
aggressive
a
speaker.
Sorry.
K
K
M
Officer
I
appreciate
a
that
Jackie
Billy
did
bring
up
the
question
of
GDP
and
how
we
measure
that,
and
it
partly
Harvey
correctly
challenged
there
about
that.
That's
something
the
committee
will
actually
be
doing
looking
at
and
it's
coming
to
a
subjects
on
a
data
and
on
the
performance
of
the
economy,
but
a
we
have
heard
already
in
one
of
our
following
a
studies
already
clear
evidence
and
clear
statement
from
a
witness
that
growing
the
economy
does
not
make
it
fairer
or
matically.
M
Andy
I'm,
certainly
believer
that,
even
if
the
economy
didn't
grow,
we
need
to
make
it
fira
right
where
we
are
right
today.
Now
other
people,
including
ash
Denham,
talked
about
the
positive
impact
on
the
economy
of
having
women
fulfilling
the
potential
working
to
the
a
the
a
qualifications
that
they
had.
A
Richard
Leonard
talked
about
more
women
being
in
the
living
wage
and
the
fact
that
there
are
conceptual
living
wage
employers
and
that
certainly
a
point.
M
A
I
am
very
sympathetic
with
a
as
well
Patrick
Harvey
I
think
made
the
point
that
just
putting
the
Queen
at
the
top
of
the
whole
system
as
head
of
state
doesn't
automatically
mean
that
women
at
the
bottom
they
are
going
to
do
better
and
I
think
we
would
probably
all
agree
with
that.
A
Alec
call
Hamilton
mentioned
devolution
in
particular,
but
I
think
we
do
have
to
accept
those
many
issues
around
this
that
are
not
related
to
devolution
and
we
do
not
yet
have
control
over.
M
So
in
my
concluding
remarks,
presiding
officer,
the
gender
pay
gap
is
not
an
issue
that
can
be
addressed
overnight,
even
in
Sweden
they're
still
at
something
like
13%.
It
will
take
time.
The
committee
will
continue
to
monitor
this
policy
area
in
budget
scrutiny,
work
and
will
carefully
consider
the
Scottish
Government's
response
to
its
report,
but
is
no
doubt
the
supporting
women
at
all
levels
and
in
all
sectors
to
achieve
their
potential
will
benefit
Scotland's
economy,
so
that
would
be
good
for
women,
and
that
would
be
good
for
all
of
us.
Thank
you.
Q
Thank
you.
That
concludes
our
debate
on
the
gender
pay
gap.
It's
now
time
to
move
the
next
I
to
have
business,
which
is
consideration
of
motion.
Eight
zero
one
three
in
the
name
of
clear
adamson
on
behalf
of
the
standards
procedures
and
Public
Appointments
Committee
on
reach
of
the
code
of
conduct
from
members
of
the
Scottish,
Parliament
and
I
call
unclear
Adamson
to
speak
to
and
move
the
motion.
Thank.
R
You
presiding
officer,
the
standards
procedures
and
public's
appointment
committee
has
considered
unreported
when
a
complaint
from
cristiano
alert
about
Alexander
Burnett
MSP.
The
complaint
was
the
Alexander
Burnett
MSP
failed
to
declare
his
registered
business
entrance
when
submitting
written
parliamentary
questions
back
in
August
last
year.
All
of
the
details
of
the
complaint,
the
committee's
deliberations
and
the
commissioners
investigation
can
be
found
in
the
annexes
of
a
report.
R
The
complaint
alleged
that
Alexander
Burnett
MSP
had
relevant
business
interests
related
to
housing
development
in
banki,
Aberdeen
sure
it
was
the
complainer
submission
that
the
conflict
of
interest
arose
by
virtue
of
entries
in
the
respondents
register
of
interest.
The
Commissioner
for
ethical
standards
in
public
life
investigated
the
complaint
and
concluded
that
mr.
burnett
was
in
breach
of
the
interests
of
members
of
the
Scottish
Parliament
act,
20
2006
and
the
code
of
conduct
for
msps.
R
The
committee
unanimously
endorsed
the
commissioners
conclusion
and,
furthermore,
we
consider
that
the
breach
justifies
the
imposition
of
a
sanction
on
Alexander
Burnett.
The
committee
wishes
to
focus
its
recommended
recommended
sanction
on
the
specific
breach
complained
about.
Accordingly,
it
recommends
that
Alexander
Bennett
MSB
be
prohibited
from
lodging
parliamentary
questions.
R
Furthermore,
it
is
a
legal
requirement
under
the
interests
of
members
of
the
Scottish
Parliament
Act
2006
and
the
code
of
conduct
for
MSPs
before
taking
part
in
any
proceedings
of
the
parliament,
a
member
must
always
consider
whether
he
have
a
declared
interest
in
relation
to
the
particular
matter
being
addressed
in
those
proceedings.
It
is
incumbent
and
members
to
meet
the
appropriate
written
and
oral
declarations
if
they
have
a
declared
will
in
trace
I
moved
the
motion
on
behalf
of
the
standards,
procedures
and
public
appointments
committee.
Q
Thank
you.
The
question
will
be
decision
time.
The
next
item
of
business
is
consideration
of
business
motion.
8
0,
9
9
in
the
name
of
geophys
Patrick,
on
behalf
of
the
parameter
Bureau
setting
out
a
business
program,
I
ask
anyone
who
objects
to
say
so
now
or
to
press
the
button.
I
should
say:
I
call
in
two
of
his
Patrick
to
move
motion.
8
0,
9,
9
formally
moved
and
no
one
has
to
speak.
Therefore,
the
question
is
that
we
agree
motion
8,
0
99.
Are
we
all
agreed?
We
are
agreed.
Q
The
next
item
of
business
is
consideration
of
our
apartment's
of
your
motion.
I
would
ask
to
have
as
patter
to
move
motion
a
tone
98
and
behalf
the
primacy
Bureau
moved.
Thank
you
very
much.
We
now
come
to
decision
time.
There
are
three
questions.
The
first
question
is
that
motion
7
9
4
6
in
the
name
of
Gordon
Lyndhurst
on
gender
pcap
be
agreed.
Are
we
all
agreed?
We
are
agreed.
The
next
question
is
a
motion.
Q
8
0
1
3
in
the
name
of
clear
adamson,
on
beach
of
the
code
of
conduct
for
members
of
the
scholars.
Profit.
Be
agreed,
are
we
all
agreed?
We
are
agreed
and
the
final
question
is
a
motion
8
or
9
8
in
an
image
of
his--
Patrick
on
a
committee
meeting
be
agreed.
Are
we
all
agreed?
We
are
agreed,
and
that
concludes
decision
time
well
now,
move
to
members
business
in
the
name
of
Edward
mountain
and
we'll
just
take
a
few
moments
for
members
to
change
seats.