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From YouTube: Stage 1 Debate: Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill
Description
S5M-07905 Michael Matheson: Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill—That the Parliament agrees
to the general principles of the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Bill.
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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B
Thank
you
say,
North
soft,
saying
also,
everyone
in
this
chamber
is
aware
that
domestic
abuse
plates
the
lathes
of
too
many
people
in
Scotland.
It
may
not
be
obvious
because
it
is
largely
hidden,
often
occurring
behind
closed
doors
and
out
of
sight
what
we
know
that
it
is
widespread.
The
number
of
instance
are
truly
shocking.
It
slightly
that
everyone
in
this
chamber,
even
if
the
dirt
nought
is
lately
to
have
family
or
friends
who
have
been
abused
or
are
being
abused
by
a
partner
or
an
ex-partner.
B
Tame
has
moved
on,
and
attitudes
have
thankfully
evolved
well
more
than
understanding
of
domestic
abuse
shaped
by
the
experience
of
women
affected
and
the
groups
that
help
them
is
no
such
that
we
know.
Domestic
abuse
is
commonly
experienced
as
a
pattern
of
abusive
behavior.
That
is
sustained
over
time.
It
can
take
the
form
of
physical
violence
or
even
over
threats,
but
it
can
also
take
the
form
when
an
abuser
may
behave
in
a
highly
controlling
coercive
and
abusive
way
over
a
long
period
of
time.
B
The
domestic
abuse
Scotland
bill
is
this
government
and
this
Parliament's
next
important
step
in
the
fight
to
address
the
Scotch,
that
is
domestic
abuse.
So
no,
so
this
parliament
has
already
taken
action
to
reform
the
criminal
law
concerning
domestic
abuse
in
2010.
Tainless
government
ensured
that
what
might
be
described
as
the
traditionally
understood
form
of
domestic
abuse
prosecuted
using
common
law
breach
of
the
peace,
could
continue
to
be
prosecuted
using
a
new
statutory
offence
of
threatening
and
abusive
behavior.
B
B
As
many
of
you
who
know
the
Danelaw
star
general,
the
Thompson
Q's,
he
called
on
the
Scottish
Parliament
to
consider
the
creation
of
a
specific
offense
of
domestic
abuse
in
2014.
She
said
that,
in
her
experience
of
prosecuting
domestic
abuse,
the
existing
criminal
law
did
not
always
reflect
the
experience
of
victims
of
long
term
domestic
abuse.
The
explanation
given
was
because
the
war
focuses
on
individual
instances
or,
for
example,
threatened
behavior
or
assault
and
does
not
reflect
the
fact
that
domestic
abuse
is
commonly
experienced
as
a
pattern
of
abusive
behavior.
That
is
sustained
over
time.
B
This
behavior
can
be
very
difficult
to
prosecute
under
our
existing
law
and
even
where
our
prosecution
as
possible.
A
conviction
for
example,
for
an
individual
of
threatening
or
abusive
behavior
may
leave
the
victim
feeling
that
the
court
process
and
the
sentence
imposed
did
not
reflect
the
reality
of
the
abuse
they
experienced.
B
Then
also,
the
centerpiece
of
this
bill
is
a
new
offense
of
domestic
abuse.
This
new
offense
modernizes
the
criminal
law
to
reflect
our
understanding
of
what
domestic
abuse
is
by
providing
for
a
specific
offense
that
is
intended
to
be
as
comprehensive,
so
that
abuse
in
its
totality
can
be
prosecuted
as
a
single
offense.
It
is
a
course
of
conduct
offense,
which
enables
the
entirety
of
the
perpetrators
abusive
behavior,
to
be
included
in
a
single
charge.
This
allows
the
court
to
consider
the
totality
of
the
abuse
that
is
alleged
to
have
taken
place.
B
C
Taken
intervention,
and
indeed
for
the
ways
and
that
the
proposition
under
scripting
at
the
moment
you'll
be
aware
that
the
committee
had
evidence
about
the
potential
for
setting
the
evidential
bar
too
low
in
terms
of
prosecuting
criminal,
offenses.
I.
Think
the
scottish
government's
response
to
the
committee's
report
is
very
helpful
in
setting
why
that
isn't
the
case,
but
I
wonder
whether
you
might
be
able
to
read
that
onto
the
record
for
the
benefit
Department.
They
have
a.
B
Seek
to
do
us
all
a
plain
officer
and
I
think
not
respond
to
the
committee's
report.
We
believe
that
we
have
set
the
bar
right.
It
also
reinforces
the
aurawave
rules
which
I
gave
to
the
committee
at
the
time,
but
it
was
considering
the
stage
stage.
One
report
that
we
believe
that
the
bar,
which
we
have
set
with
the
qualifying
criteria
for
engaging
this
offense,
is
the
right
level
and
we
believe
that
the
courts
will
interpret
an
appropriate.
B
We,
a
bazillion,
also
can
I
see
that
crucially,
the
way
this
offense
is
going
to
work
is
to
both
criminalize
certain
specific
behavior,
such
as
violent
behavior
and
also
can
rise
other
types
of
behavior
by
reference
to
the
effect
it
has
on
the
partner
or
ex-partner
so,
for
example,
the
offense
seeks
to
cover
behavior
such
as
unreasonably
restricting
access
to
money
by
reference
to
the
fact
that
this
meemic,
the
partner,
feel
dependent
or
subordinate
to
the
perpetrator.
So
no,
so
children
too
are
harmed
by
domestic
abuse,
but
a
pin
is
being
abused.
B
This
always
brings
harm
to
the
child,
whether
directly
from
the
chair
witnessing
abuse
but
indirectly,
where
a
child
is
affected
by
the
effect
has
on
their
parent,
in
line
with
the
long-established
definition
of
domestic
abuse.
This
bill
is
we're
creating
a
new
offense
of
domestic
abuse
between
partners
and
aurochs
partners,
and
the
harm
to
children
is
acknowledged
through
the
new
statutory
aggravation
so
where
children
are
involved.
This
can
be
reflected
by
the
court
when
sentencing
the
perpetrator,
saying
officer,
I.
Welcome
the
justice
committee
stage.
B
One
report
which
supports
the
general
principles
of
this
bill
and
I'd
like
to
take
this
opportunity
to
thank
those
organizations
and
MP
those
individuals,
not
least
those
who
shared
with
the
committee.
They
have
personal
experience
of
suffering
domestic
abuse,
who
gave
evidence
to
the
committee
to
assess
their
consideration
of
the
bill.
The
committee
of
raised
a
number
of
important
issues,
including
how
we
may
expand
the
scope
of
the
penalty
imposed
on
harassment,
orders
to
provide
protection
to
the
children
of
the
victim.
B
The
proposal
to
create
emergency
banning
orders,
which
would
ban
a
perpetrator
from
a
victim's
home,
an
issues
concerning
the
interaction
between
the
criminal
domestic
abuse
cases
and
the
civil
show
contact
case
process.
Scottish
Government
has
responded
to
the
stage
one
report,
recommendations
and
now
well,
of
course,
listen
carefully
to
the
views
offered
on
those
issues
in
today's
debate
ahead
of
stage
two
of
the
bill
and
on
the
specific
issues
of
non
harassment.
All
those
a
good
way
to
remember
can
still
be.
D
Forgiven
we
welcome
all
those
groups,
who've
contributed
to
this
process,
Scottish
women's
needs
and
the
D
chosen
first
have
both
called
for
a
parallel
offense,
specifically
around
domestic
abuse
and
the
impact
it
has
on
children
to
be
included
on
the
face
of
the
bill.
I
wonder
if
you
could
tell
just
now
whether
his
mind
is
still
open
to
that
at
this
stage.
As.
B
B
That's
why
I
taking
a
different
approach
to
how
we
deal
with
children
in
this
matter
will
be
extremely
important
to
make
sure
that
this
approach
works,
but
also
that
we
get
specific
approach.
They
were
also
work
for
children
in
the
future
and
also
in
conclusion,
creating
our
a
new
offense
of
domestic
abuse
will
not,
on
its
own
end
domestic
abuse.
However,
it
is
a
groundbreaking
approach
that
will
put
Scott
at
the
forefront
of
efforts
to
attack
who
the
Scott
jaw
of
psychological
abuse
and
coercive
control.
B
The
new
offense
will
provide
greater
clarity
for
victims,
sending
a
clear
signal
that
what
their
partners
had
what
their
partners
do
to
them
is
not
only
wrong,
but
it's
criminal
improve
the
ability
of
the
policeman
or
prosecutors
to
intervene
in
specific
cases
and
change,
societal
attitudes
about
what
domestic
abuse
is
that
it's
not
only
physical
violence
but
also
psychological
use,
exacting
total
control
over
our
partners,
every
movement
and
action
forcing
them
to
live
in
constant
fear,
saying
also
for
too
long.
An
attitude
has
been
allowed
to
linger
that
domestic
abuse
is
a
private
matter.
B
A
E
Officer
I'm
pleased
to
be
speaking
on
behalf
of
the
Justice
Committee
and
this
important
debate.
The
committee
took
evidence
in
the
bill
over
six
meetings.
Earlier
this
year,
private
meetings
were
held
with
survivors
of
psychological
domestic
abuse
from
different
parts
of
Scotland,
and
the
committee
received
written
evidence
from
over
40
organizations
and
individuals.
E
The
new
domestic
abuse
offense
in
the
bill
is
intended
to
address
a
gap
in
the
law,
namely
the
lack
of
a
criminal
remedy
when
Dannette
domestic
abuse
is
primal,
or
primarily
psychological
in
nature,
in
a
relationship
for
one
party
seized
control
and
dominate
the
other.
The
committee
heard
that
the
current
law
is
not
well
equipped
to
handle
situations
where,
where
abuse
consists
of
a
course
of
behavior,
as
opposed
to
an
isolated
incident,
this
means
the
current
law
does
not
effectively
reflect
the
lived
experience
of
many
victims.
E
The
private
meetings
that
the
committee
member
held
with
survivors
of
psychological
domestic
abuse,
helped
members
immensely
to
better
understand
the
nature
of
this
particular
form
of
domestic
abuse
and
the
trauma
that
it
causes.
It
was
indeed
sobering
to
reflect
that
some
of
the
appalling
conduct
victims
described
cannot
currently
be
prosecuted.
E
Consequently,
please
Scotland,
the
Crown
Office
and
many
third
sector
organisations
who
gave
evidence
were
all
of
the
view
that
reform
is
overdue.
The
committee
agrees,
however,
a
minority
of
witnesses,
including
legal
academics
and
the
Scottish
Police
Federation,
expressed
some
significant
concerns
about
the
new
offence.
They
stated
that
it
was
not
easy
to
legislate
in
terms
of
human
relationships
and,
consequently,
that
there
was
a
risk
of
inadvertently
making
bad
law.
This
they
feared
could
result
in
an
individual
being
charged
for
behavior.
E
That
is
not
by
any
reasonable
standards,
criminal
or
being
charged
when
there
is
no
clear
evidence
that
crime
has
been
committed.
The
committee
therefore
considered
this
evidence
very
carefully
and
took
into
account
the
counter-argument
from
witnesses
who
disagreed
with
this
view.
For
example,
Chief
Superintendent
Lesley
both
stated
that
officers
were
not
being
called
upon
to
do
anything,
especially
new.
They
already
deal
with
complex
abuse
and
child
welfare
cases.
E
The
counter-arguments
also
recognized
the
aspects
of
the
new
offense,
like
any
new
offense
will
give
rise
to
questions
of
interpretation,
and
here
the
committee
was
persuaded
by
the
evidence
led
about
context.
This
emphasised
that
an
understanding
of
the
context
of
the
behavior
is
crucially
important
if
some
in
some
context,
even
the
most
innocuous
seeming
comment,
may
in
fact
be
a
chilling
threat,
whilst
the
new
offense
the
dress,
is
abuse
between
partners,
the
drafting
recognizes
the
perpetrators,
sometimes
use
third
parties,
children
and
particulars
a
means
of
control.
E
The
bill
also
makes
provision
for
a
statutory
aggravator
for
in
agencies
of
partner
abuse
in
which
children
are
directly
involved.
This
was
welcomed,
although
some
considered
the
bill
should
have
gone
further
and
recognized
abuse
of
a
child
as
a
criminal
act
in
its
own
right.
The
committee
understands
these
views
but
notes
the
Scottish
government's
response,
confirming
that
the
bill
was
never
intended
to
have
this
wider
focus.
Instead,
the
government
has
committed
to
consult
on
this
issue
in
the
near
future.
E
In
terms
of
implementation,
the
committee
recommends
that
there
should
be
a
publicist,
a
publicity
campaign
to
draw
attention
to
the
new
law
and
to
underline
the
psychological
abuse
in
a
relationship
is
totally
unacceptable.
The
committee
also
considered
that
the
police
and
prosecutors
must
set
clear
policies
and
how
they
intend
to
enforce
the
new
offence.
Crucially,
these
policies
must
be
kept
under
review
in
the
light
of
experience.
E
Furthermore,
evidence
led
indicated
that
the
new
offence
is
likely
to
be
relatively
resource
intensive,
especially
as
the
cases
can
be
complex
and
vulnerable
witnesses
and
victims
will
almost
certainly
need
support.
The
committee
therefore
recommends
that
the
funding
of
agencies
dealing
with
the
new
offenses
must
also
be
kept
under
review.
Some
evidence
was
led
to
the
effect
that
there
was
an
excessive
focus
on
punishment
in
handling
domestic
abuse.
However,
many
others,
including
Social
Work,
Scotland,
strongly
disagreed.
E
The
committee
did
observe
that
punishment
for
the
crime
is
potentially
up
to
14
years
imprisonment
and
that
it
would
be
possible
for
this
to
be
imposed
on
the
base
of
psychological
abuse
alone.
If
the
court
considered
this
merited,
the
committee
has
asked
the
government
to
expand
on
its
reasons
for
taking
this
approach.
The
remaining
reforms
in
the
bill
are
mainly
procedural
or
evidential
changes
to
the
law
as
it
relates
to
domestic
abuse.
E
These
reforms
are
important
to
ensure
that
the
justice
system,
rather
than
retrim
anti-seize
victims
of
abuse
once
such
reform,
is
the
proposal
to
require
court
to
consider
whether
to
make
an
NH
o
a
non
harassment
order
at
the
end
of
every
domestic
abuse
criminal
case.
The
committee
is
supportive
of
this
recommendation,
especially
as
the
current
law,
placing
the
initiative
with
the
prosecutor
is
not
resulting
in
these
orders
being
used
when
it's
appropriate
to
do
so.
E
However,
the
committee
took
nice
ins
of
the
fact
that
an
NHO
does
not
always
offer
the
victim
the
protection
that
was
intended
and
asked
at
the
government
to
respond
to
to
this
point.
In
addition,
a
case
was
made
by
some
organizations
about
the
advantages
of
and
the
need
for,
so-called
emergency
barting.
Barring
orders,
these
orders
would
exclude
an
abuser
from
the
victim's
home
immediately.
E
The
committee
has
therefore
agreed
to
take
more
evidence
on
this.
At
stage
two,
finally,
the
issue
of
decisions
made
in
the
civil
courts,
not
taking
cognizance
of
convictions
in
the
Criminal
Code,
was
raised,
especially
in
relation
to
contact
with
the
child
of
a
person
who
was
the
victim
of
domestic
abuse.
The
committee
noted
this
issue
in
closing
presiding
officer.
I
want
to
pay
tribute
to
the
courage
and
eloquence
of
those
victims
of
abuse,
who
surely
shared
their
stories
with
the
committee.
F
You
presiding
officer,
I,
echo
was
a
cabinet
secretary
and
justice
committee
convener.
So
thanks
to
everyone
who
gave
evidence
to
the
committee
on
with
the
Clarkson
Spice
for
all
their
assistance
in
its
current
form,
criminal
law
focuses
on
discreet
incidents
of
physical
violence
or
on
threatening
behavior
that
causes
fear
or
alarm.
F
As
the
cabinet
secretary
made
clear,
the
bill,
if
passed,
is
intended
to
improve
our
justice
system,
responds
to
domestic
abuse
by
principally
creating
a
new
offense
of
engaging
in
an
abusive
course
of
conduct
even
entirely
non-physical
against
a
partner
or
ex-partner,
and
will
also
amend
procedural,
an
evidential
aspects
of
criminal
law
with
a
view
to
tipping
the
balance
in
favor
of
domestic
abuse
victims.
Accordingly,
I
confirm
the
Scottish
conservatives
do
support
this
bill
in
principle
and
will
vote
to
agree
to
the
general
principles
of
the
domestic
abuse
Scotland
bill.
F
At
decision
time
tonight,
the
proposed
bill
seeks
to
address
a
lacuna
in
the
legislative
landscape.
The
committee
heard
compelling
and
persuasive
evidence
from
a
number
of
organizations,
social
workers,
the
equalities
and
Human
Rights
Commission
and
indeed
from
abuse
survivors
themselves.
Some
of
the
harrowing
conduct
described
to
the
committee
is
not
currently
criminal
and
therefore
cannot
be
prosecuted,
and
it's
that
which
the
bill
seeks
to
address.
There
are
some
areas
which
merit
further
consideration,
which
my
colleagues
will
pick
up
throughout
this
debate.
F
Firstly,
in
summary,
concerns
have
been
expressed
over
whether
the
bill
risk
setting
the
bar
of
criminality
to
low
potentially
leading
to
the
wrong
cases
being
prosecuted.
Callum
Steele
of
the
Scottish
Police
Federation
gave
evidence
that
couples
at
the
time
very
relationship
break
down,
may
sometimes
be
quote
particularly
horrible
to
each
other.
But
there's
a
few
months
down
the
line,
the
parties
may
regret
getting
the
criminal
justice
system
involved.
F
Andrewchuk
L
of
Glasgow
Caledonian
University
law
school
expressed
concerns
around
over
criminalization
when
the
law
intervenes
in
family
and
romantic
life.
Yeah
particular
concerns
around
the
use
of
the
word
distress
to
define
psychological
harm,
which
is
a
novel
term.
In
criminal
law,
the
SPF
further
expressed
disquiet
around
officers
becoming
pawns
in
routine
family
disagreements.
Callum
Steele,
noting
there
is
a
fundamental
difference
between
arresting
on
the
basis
of
physical
evidence
and
interpreting
whether
there
had
been
psychological
abuse.
F
He
said
at
the
very
least,
officers
would
need
training
to
apply
the
law
and
I
note
the
cabinet
Secretary's
responses
to
the
committee
in
that
regard,
and
indeed,
agree
with
Liam
MacArthur's
intervention
earlier
that
the
cabinet
Secretary's
response
is
useful
in
a
great
deal
of
respect.
In
that
regard,
presiding
officer,
I'd,
like
to
flag
an
area
which
the
Scottish
government
might
wish
to
consider.
Courts
can
sometimes
seem
stacked
against
domestic
abuse
survivors.
F
There
is
an
acceptance
that
the
judicial
process
for
domestic
abuse
victims
is
traumatic
and
steps
should
be
taken
to
minimize
what
they
have
to
relive
and,
as
a
report
suggests
ensure
they
are
not
revitalized
by
the
criminal
justice
process.
The
Scottish
government
accepts
this
point
in
their
policy
memorandum
for
the
domestic
abuse
bill.
The
issue
potentially
persists
where
victims
of
domestic
abuse
have
to
recount
their
case,
to
multiple
sheriff's.
F
Far
too
often
in
cases
of
domestic
abuse,
there
may
be
a
number
of
issues,
for
example,
divorce,
and/or,
child
residence
arrangements,
as
well
as
the
domestic
abuse.
These
will
be
heard
in
different
arenas,
with
perhaps
one
sheriff
in
a
civil
court
hearing
evidence
during
divorce
proceedings
and
a
separate
one
in
the
Criminal
Court
for
the
domestic
violence.
There
is
also
the
possibility
that
multiple
sheriffs
deal
with
different
stages
of
a
civil
case.
According
to
spice.
At
present,
a
number
of
sheriffs
can
be
involved
in
an
individual
family
case.
F
There
is
no
system
whereby
the
same
sheriff
deals
with
every
stage
of
the
civil
case.
That
means
potentially
victims
have
to
repeatedly
relive
their
ordeal.
Domestic
violence
victims
face
many
barriers
to
safety
and
independence.
Incomprehensible
and/or
over
complex
court
proceedings
should
not
be
won
no
trials
of
one
family.
F
One
judge
system
to
address
this
have
been
carried
out
in
the
US
Australia
and
New
Zealand,
where
the
victim
only
has
to
recount
experience
to
a
single
judge
to
avoid
unnecessary
trauma
and
in
England
there
have
been
trials
of
an
integrated
domestic
violence
court,
in
which
one
judge
handles
the
criminal
cases
related
to
domestic
violence,
as
well
as
all
accompanying
civil
matters.
In
this,
a
single
presiding
judge
is
cross
trained
to
handle
all
matters,
criminal
and
civil
relating
to
a
family
and
by
concentrating
responsibility.
F
Arguably,
the
court
speeds
decision-making
and
eliminates
the
potential
for
conflicting
judicial
orders.
It
can
increase
coordination
amongst
criminal
justice
and
community
based
social
service
agencies
and
may
be
better
able
to
keep
tabs
on
defendants
responding
quickly
to
allegations
of
non-compliance
with
imposed
orders.
F
So
this
may
reduce
the
number
of
court
appearances,
streamlining
the
process
and
meaning
that
the
trauma
of
retelling
the
incident
numerous
times
can
be
avoided.
A
review
found
that
and
I
quote
the
evidence
on
ID
VC's
is
promising
and
indicates
there
are
advantages
to
bringing
together
family,
civil
and
criminal
cases
now
I
accept.
There
are
issues
to
be
addressed.
Difficulties
can
arise
where
the
evidence
given
in
one
case
differs
from
another
and
there
could
be
an
administrative
burden.
Ensuring
the
same
judge
deals
with
both
matters.
F
Proper
procedures,
administration
and
resources
would
require
to
be
in
place
to
make
it
happen,
but
surely
whether,
as
part
of
this
bill
or
separately,
a
one
family,
one
sheriff
approach
for
domestic
abuse
victims
in
Scotland
is
certainly
worth
exploring
presiding
officer.
Domestic
abuse
is
monstrous
and
can
cause
immense
and
enduring
trauma
and
harm.
It
has
been
sobering
to
hear
and
read
the
testimony
of
victims
and
organizations
which
support
them,
highlighting
there
is
behaviour
which
cannot
currently
be
prosecuted
because
it
doesn't
meet
the
threshold
of
criminal
conduct.
F
It
is
clear
from
that
evidence
that
more
must
be
done
to
support
victims,
that
there
is
a
gap
in
our
law
and
this
new
offense
is
required,
and
we
agree
that
the
general
principles
of
the
domestic
abuse
Scotland
bill
are
sound
and
shall
vote
for
that
today.
However,
we
are
confident
that
government
will
listen
to
concerns
raised
in
the
Justice
committees
report
and
during
the
debate
today
to
ensure
the
new
law
is,
if
as
effective
as
it
can
be.
Thank
you.
G
You
presiding
officer,
and
this
year,
Scottish
Humanzee
it
reached
their
40s.
Sorry
start
again.
Last
year,
Scottish
women's
aid
reached
their
fourth
year
and
their
work
from
local
groups
providing
support
and
refuge
for
women
and
children
who
are
facing
domestic
abuse
through
their
role
as
a
national
organization.
To
give
a
focus
to
pushing
for
political
and
societal
change
has
been
instrumental
and
shifting
attitudes.
This
includes
how
the
legal
system
and
the
police
have
both
changed.
Their
response
to
domestic
abuse.
G
The
difference
in
how
we
deal
with
domestic
abuse
today,
compared
to
how
we
dealt
with
at
40
years
ago,
is
clear
and
welcome.
There
can
no
longer
be
an
acceptance
that
domestic
abuse
is
a
private
matter,
that
it
is
the
victims
fault
or
that
the
victim
could
leave
if
they
really
wanted
to.
Yet
there
is
still
work
to
be
done,
and
there
is
a
gap
in
the
law,
as
this
bill
recognizes.
G
The
reality
facing
victims
throughout
Scotland
is
that
abuse
within
relationships
as
as
much
psychological
and
emotional
as
it
is
physical
in
nature,
people's
homes
become
their
presence.
Their
actions
are
watched.
They
are
cut
off
from
their
friends
and
families.
They
are
at
the
mercy
of
their
abuser,
someone
who
they
loved
or
even
still
loved.
That
is
why
we
are
fully
supportive
of
ensuring
that
psychological
abuse
and
cohesive
and
controlling
behaviour
is
recognized
as
a
crime
and
I
would
like
to
say
at
the
outset
that
we
very
much
support
the
general
principles
of
the
bill.
G
There
is
much
to
welcome,
however,
I
hope.
The
cabinet
secretary
appreciates
I
only
have
a
least
seven
minutes
in
which
I
would
like
to
use
this
time
constructively
to
look
up
where
we
could
possibly
strengthen
the
bill.
There
are
ways
in
which
we
can
make
this
bill
stronger,
and
these
changes
are
achievable.
G
Domestic
abuse
has
a
devastating
impact
on
the
victim,
and
we
must
also
recognize
that
that
impact
can
spread
further
than
the
intended
victim,
often
and
families
that
can
have
a
serious
and
long-term
impact
on
children.
Those
who
witnessed
domestic
abuse
are
at
an
increased
risk
of
experiencing
mental
health
problems
of
developing
alcohol
or
substance,
abuse
problems
or
anything
into
abusive
relationships
and
selves.
We
do
not
want
to
be
in
a
position
in
a
few
years
time
where
we
considered
this
bill
to
have
been
a
missed
opportunity.
Women
say
it
on
children.
G
First
argued
that
at
stage
two
or
three
we
can
assure
the
law
recognizes
the
damaging
impact
domestic
abuse
could
have
on
children
and
I
appreciate
the
cabinet
secretaries
response
to
Kezia
Dugdale
on
this
issue
this
afternoon.
His
argument
that
the
Bell
is
perhaps
not
the
appropriate
place
for
this,
however
I
think
this
will
be
an
issue
that
will
be
tested
out
stage.
Two.
We
need
to
appreciate
the
link
between
domestic
abuse
cases
on
victims
and
any
children
they
may
have,
especially
not
exclusively
younger
children.
A
physical
assault
was
witnessed.
G
This
clearly
has
a
significant
impact
on
children.
So
if
we
look
at
the
impact
of
controlling
behavior,
where
our
mother's
movements
are
restricted,
their
finances
and
independence
is
constrained,
we
cannot
ignore
the
impact
on
their
child,
who
will
also
suffer
from
these
restrictions
as
human
day
to
highlight
and
their
briefing
for
today's
debate
are
women
and
children's
experiences
of
domestic
abuse
at
interwoven
and
inseparable.
G
We
must
also
consider
at
the
impact
of
domestic
abuse
when
it
comes
to
future
contact
decisions
to
inflict
domestic
abuse
on
to
another
person
as
a
choice,
and
it
is
vital
that
this
choice
is
strongly
considered
in
any
court
decision
to
award
or
refuse
contact
appearance.
You
have
been
guilty
of
abusing
their
partner
or
their
ex.
We
must
move
away
from
the
current
situation
where
evidence
of
domestic
abuse
does
not
play
a
significant
part
in
contact
decisions
and
the
moves
to
insist
that
courts
always
consider
the
use
of
an
any
tool
as
welcomed
and
I.
G
Also
look
forward
to
the
Scottish
Government's
responds
to
the
committee's
recommendation
of
the
use
of
emergency
banning
orders.
There
was
some
evidence
for
the
committee
that
incidents
could
be
engineered
or
provoked
prevent
child
contact
that
there
be
a
malicious
element
within
them,
but
there
was
very
little
substantive
evidence
about
the
extent
of
this.
Rather,
there
were
descriptions
of
contact
orders
being
used
to
continue
with
psychological
abuse.
I
recognise
this
as
an
issue
that
has
been
recently
discussed
at
the
public
petitions
committee
and
the
government
is
reviewing
relevant
legislation.
Well,
I.
G
Guess
the
scope
of
this
bill.
It
is
important
that
this
bill
is
consistent
with
other
pieces
of
legislation
and
the
review
that
is
ongoing.
Its
scrutiny
of
the
detail
of
the
bill
will
be
Porton
and
we
all
want
to
see
an
effective
bow,
but
context
is
also
important,
and
that
is
why
we
will
be
committing
towards
a
national
rule
light
of
domestic
abuse
courts.
G
We
believe
this
to
be
a
model
that
works
in
in
shooting
victims
feel
safe
and
confident
in
coming
forward
that
their
case
will
be
taking
seriously
and
it
will
help
in
delivering
convictions.
Sadly,
we
have
seen
cases
involving
domestic
abuse
in
recent
years.
Well,
it
has
often
been
difficult
to
understand
the
judgment
that
has
been
reached.
G
Domestic
abuse
courts
would
ensure
consistency
and
expertise
and
wish
you'd
encourage
models
which
can
build
the
specialism.
The
bail
den
affords
us
the
opportunity
to
put
in
statute
such
a
commitment
to
this
model.
By
doing
so,
we've
not
only
short
commitment
to
victims
that
we
understand
the
fragile
and
complex
nature
of
their
cases.
We
can
also
address
some
of
the
concerns
we
have
had
regarding
the
school
from
the
definition
of
the
law.
I'm
also
training
for
the
judiciary
as
vital
and
I
know
that
this
has
offered,
but
a
degree
of
compulsion
would
be
greatly
beneficial.
G
Ultimately,
we
must
have
confidence
at
this
bill
and
the
subsequent
law
is
clear
and
easily
understood,
not
just
by
lawyers
and
the
judiciary,
but
by
those
at
risk
of
domestic
abuse.
The
concerns
raised
to
the
committee
regarding
the
clarity
of
the
near
fades
must
continue
to
be
addressed.
Well
did
as
much
support
for
the
bill.
We
should
recognize
that
it
will
be
tasted
and
we
must
all
be
confident
that
it
can
achieve
its
objectives
as
this
bill
progresses.
G
Psychological
damage
cannot
be
trevor
lized.
It
must
be
by
its
definition,
serious
orange.
The
stanch
are
substantial,
and
this
bill
must
challenge
not
normalized
actions
that
demean
humiliate
harm
and
control
partners.
This
bill
can
only
be
the
latest
stick
and
tackling
domestic
abuse
in
Scotland,
as
the
cabinet
secretary
stated
in
his
opening
statement,
the
extent
of
the
abuse
is
still
concerning.
We
have
to
ensure
that
there
is
sufficient
funding
for
advocacy
services
for
Refuge
accommodation
for
counseling
and
one-to-one
support.
Many
of
these
are
feeling
the
strain
of
funding
pressures,
particularly
and
our
local
authorities.
G
We
know
that
there
can
be
a
postcode
lot
today
when
it
comes
to
receiving
support,
especially
in
rural
areas,
and
we
must
work
to
address
this
presiding
officer.
We
will
be
forcefully
supportive
of
the
general
principles
tonight
and
we
look
forward
to
contributing
to
strengthening
the
bail
as
that
progresses
its
way
through
Parliament.
Thank
you.
A
H
You
presiding
officer,
it's
a
privilege
to
speak
in
this
to
be
on
the
domestic
abuse
bill,
because
it's
such
a
vitally
important
piece
of
legislation
to
come
before
Parliament
now.
This
bill
makes
domestic
abuse
a
specific
offense
and
creates
a
new
offense
of
engaging
in
a
course
of
abusive
behavior
towards
a
partner
or
ex-partner
and
recognizes
for
the
first
time,
the
patterns
of
abusive
behavior
and
the
truly
traumatic
and
lasting
impact
that
this
has
on
the
victims
of
abuse.
H
The
justice
committee
heard
a
considerable
amount
of
powerful
evidence
on
this
bill
and
I'd
like
to
focus
my
contribution
today
on
non
harassment.
Orders
a
non
harassment
order
is
a
court
order
which
can
be
used
against
a
partner,
ex-partner
or
indeed
any
third
party
behaving
in
a
way
that
frightens
or
causes
distress
and
as
it
currently
stands.
It
is
up
to
the
prosecution
to
request
an
on
harassment
order
they're
under
no
obligation
at
all
to
engage
with
the
victim
on
whether
or
not
an
application
should
even
be
made
under
the
current
system.
H
Only
a
small
percentage
of
successfully
prosecuted
cases
actually
result
in
non
harassment,
orders
being
issued.
We
received
figures
from
research
done
in
one
particular
region
that
find
I
of
six
hundred
and
forty-four
cases
with
a
domestic
abuse
aggravator
there
were
convictions
and
502
of
those
cases.
Yet
only
33
known
harassment
orders
were
issued.
That's
an
only
six
percent
of
cases.
Change
is
proposed
under
this
bill
with
instead
see
consideration
of
these
mandatory
in
such
cases
now
non
harassment.
Orders
are
particularly
important
for
two
reasons.
H
Firstly,
as
mentioned
repeatedly
in
the
submitted
evidence
by
the
Klein
office
and
zero
tolerance
amongst
others,
that
is
a
significantly
high
risk
of
reoffending,
with
zero
tolerance
stating
as
a
near
certainty
in
domestic
abuse
cases
and,
secondly,
the
high
financial
cost
of
pursuing
a
non
harassment
order
through
the
civil
course
in
written
evidence.
We
heard
from
one
survivor
of
domestic
abuse.
He
told
us
about
her
own
experiences.
She
said
on
the
day
of
sentencing.
I
did
not
know
of
my
abuser,
who
was
my
husband
we'd,
be
given
a
non
harassment
order?
H
He
was
not
an
effect.
The
law
would
allow
him
to
leave
court,
get
in
his
car
and
drive
straight
back
to
the
marital
home,
where
I
was
still
living.
Having
had
this
bet
the
benefit
of
17
months
of
police
bail
conditions,
while
he
was
innocent,
the
law
waits
until
he
is
actually
convicted
of
a
violent
crime.
Then
lifts
the
protection
I
had
it
just
doesn't
make
sense.
She
then
went
on
to
highlight
what
this
means
financially
for
those
who
are
they
enforced
to
try
and
pursue
a
non
harassment
order
through
the
civil
courts.
H
What
really
frustrates
me
and
actually
hurts
me
about
that
statement
is
that
we
heard
exactly
the
same
phrase
from
another
victim
of
domestic
abuse.
When
we
take
evidence
as
part
of
the
Justice
committees
inquiry
and
to
the
Crown
Office,
we
simply
cannot
have
a
situation
that
makes
people
who
have
suffered
at
the
hands
of
such
horrendous
abuse
prefer
to
suffer
that
in
that
abuse
then
go
through
the
justice
system.
I
J
You
I'm
very
glad
to
have
the
opportunity
today
to
take
part
in
this
very
important
debate
about
the
domestic
abuse
bill.
I
would
also
like
to
thank
it
in
knowledge
and
the
organizations
and
individuals
who
gave
so
eagerly
and
well
and
the
evidence
they
put
before
the
Justice
Committee,
sometimes
an
awfully
different,
difficult
circumstances.
Domestic
abuse
is
an
intolerable
evil
act
which
happens
too
often
in
our
society.
It
harms
those
who
are
meant
to
be
closest
to
us
and
to
whom
we
look
to
for
support.
J
It
is
totally
unacceptable,
whatever
form
it
comes
in
but
as
it
stands,
the
law
doesn't
probably
take
into
account
every
aspect
of
domestic
abuse
as
it
states
on
page
12
of
the
report,
where
it
references
the
submission
by
anne-marie
Hicks
of
the
Crown
Office
and
procreated
fiscal
service,
and
I
quote.
The
current
law
prevented
the
bigger
picture
behind
an
abusive
relationship
being
put
before
the
court.
The
need
to
include
psychological
abuse,
as
with
physical
abuse,
was
clearly
highlighted
by
Sacre
as
well
in
their
submission
to
the
committee.
J
They
are
correct
when
they
highlight
that
psychological
abuse
can
just
be
as
effective
as
a
method
of
control
as
physical
abuse.
The
need
for
changes
has
also
been
made
clear:
the
Justice
Committee
from
a
large
number
of
varied
and
respected
external
sources,
also
from
organizations
which
work
with
victims
of
domestic
abuse,
social
workers,
academics,
lawyers,
the
police
service,
the
Crown
Office
and
the
procreative
fiscal
service.
J
That
is
not
to
say
there
aren't
issues
with
the
bill,
though,
for
example,
Clare
Connolly
of
the
Faculty
of
advocates
noted
concerns
the
the
offenses,
as
set
out
in
the
bill,
doesn't
sufficiently
contextualize
the
conduct
to
be
made
criminal,
as
has
been
spoken
about
by
my
colleague,
yet
Liam
care.
Additionally,
she
noted
that,
whilst
passing
the
bill,
it
would
be
appropriate
that
a
publicity
campaign
focusing
on
addressing
coercive
control
be
placed
alongside
the
passing
of
the
bill.
J
I
agree
with
our
conclusion
that
this
will
probably
be
an
overall,
more
effective
approach
alongside
the
bill,
so
I
would
be
interested
to
hear
from
the
Scottish
Government
as
to
what
thoughts
they
have
given
to
the
possibility
of
a
publicity
campaign
to
highlight
the
issues
of
coercive
control,
as
it
relates
to
domestic
abuse.
Research
does
bear
this
out
as
being
a
problem
area.
It
shows
that
many
people
are
likely
to
think
what
forms
of
coercive
controlling
behavior
are
more
acceptable
in
a
relationship
than
physical
abuse.
One.
Of
course
we
welcome
that.
J
The
vast
majority
know
that
physical
domestic
abuse
is
wrong.
I
believe
we
need
to
get
in
this
to
get
to
the
same
place
with
psychological
domestic
abuse
as
well.
Another
issue
which
I
believe
the
Scottish
government
should
consider
looking
into
is
the
way
the
officers
the
officers
will
be
informed
and
how
to
use
the
new
legislation.
J
If
you
take
the
example
of
England
and
Wales,
where
they
have
introduced
legislation
to
do
as
coercive
control
in
the
first
six
months
of
their
new
law,
eight
out
of
their
22
police
forces
didn't
charge
a
single
person
and
a
further
nine
police
forces
charge
two
or
fewer
people.
I
believe
the
government
needs
to
consider
this
going
forward
and
ensure
our
office
will
have
a
high
level
of
awareness
and
understanding
of
the
new
laws
which,
if
necessary,
should
include
specialist
training.
J
The
need
for
training
of
the
officers
has
also
highlighted
by
Callum
steel,
the
Scottish
police
Federation,
who
any
spokes
a
committee.
He
correctly
pointed
out
that
there
was
a
fundamental
difference
between
the
arresting
between
arresting
on
the
basis
of
physical
evidence
and
the
interpretation
whether
there
had
been
a
psychological
abuse.
J
This
would
be
a
step
change
for
officers
and
they
will
need
support
accordingly,
deputy
presiding
officer
in
conclusion,
I
think
we
would
all
agree
that
we'd
want
our
police
officers
to
be
able
to
use
their
power
the
new
powers
as
quickly
and
as
effective
as
possible
from
day
one
to
help
combat
this
dreadful
domestic
abuse.
Thank
you.
Thank.
K
You
very
much
for
saving
officer.
Can
they
leave
with
the
previous
speaker
than
regards
to
training,
but
I
think
what
we
really
need
to
look
at
as
a
cultural
change
as
well
treating
and
a
cultural
change,
because
for
many
many
years,
domestic
violence,
I
really
don't
like
the
title:
I've
always
called
violence,
and
for
many
years
it
was
accepted
until
we
got
a
cultural
change
and
that
was
through
laws
and
through
advertising
as
well.
So
else
I
think
training,
absolutely
I
agree
with
you.
It's
very
important.
K
We
do
need
a
cultural
change
within
society
that
say
this
not
just
a
physical
domestic
abuse.
Poverty,
psychological
abuse,
is
absolutely
unacceptable.
It
is
happening
all
around
us
all
the
time
you
might
not
recognize
it
just
now,
but
hopefully
we
will
once
the
legislation
goes
through
and
it
takes
time
to
Tibetan
and
I
must
say
you
know
the
colleagues
in
that
before
me
have
stated
enough
contributions.
You
know.
Welcome
this
legislation.
K
Yes,
domestic
abuse
is
not
the
only
form
of
a
abuse.
Physical
abuse
obviously
is
part
of
domestic
abuse,
but
it's
not
the
only
form
the
abuse
we're
talking
about
today
and
I'm
so
pleased
this
is
going
through
now.
I
do
welcome
the
justice
committee's
work
on
this.
I
know
that
they're
very
dedicated
on
these
particular
issues.
When
you
look
at
a
controlling,
intimidating,
threatening,
behavior,
that's
all
psychological
abuse
and
it
can
start
off,
unfortunately,
of
as
a
drug
offense.
K
People
are
basically
told
withholding
your
money
and
it
leads
on
to
you've
no
money
so
therefore,
you're
unable
to
Oates,
therefore
you're
unable
to
buy
yourself
clothes.
Therefore
you're
unable
to
see
your
friends
and
family
you're
told
what
to
eat
or
not,
to
hear
you're
told
that
you
should
perjure
worthless
so
many
times
that
can,
fortunately,
the
victim
and
the
our
victims
begin
to
believe
her
and
that's
the
psychological
drip
drip
effect.
K
Another
piece
that
I
really
really
supporting
welcome
is
the
fact
that
the
bill
recognizes
that
third
parties
can
be
used
by
a
clarity,
sir,
and
in
most
instances
this
would
be
a
child
or
a
young
person.
It's
not
been
recognized
before
and
all
that
was
evidence.
It
was
given
that
they
asked
that
this
would
be
recognized
as
normal
a
child.
There
know
that
has
recognized
that
third
parties
can
be
I
child.
A
young
people
can
be
used
by
a
perpetrator
to
push
this
further
and
a
frank.
K
K
This
is
the
upper
seeded
project,
children
experience
domestic
abuse,
recovery
five-year
project
which
delivers
special
support
to
women
and
children,
the
city
centre
and
the
East
End
of
Glasgow,
and
the
offer
support
by
addressing
the
behavioral
emotional
and
social
difficulties
that
children
and
young
people
can
experience
because
of
domestic
abuse
and
I.
Think
you've
got
to
remember
that
also,
whilst
there's
a
physical
abuse
and
the
psychological
abuse,
children
are
absolutely
affected
by
it.
Also
so
I
welcome
that
part.
Thank
you
very
much
for
saying
loss.
Thank.
I
D
Delighted
to
assist
you
in
that
effort
presenting
off
so
thank
you
very
much
the
opportunity
to
speak.
This
is
a
bill
of
air
which
is
about
improving
the
justice
system
and
how
it
serves
victims
of
domestic
abuse
and
how
it
punishes
the
perpetrators
of
domestic
abuse.
Well,
it
can't
do,
though,
is
a
radical
domestic
abuse
and
I'd
like
to
start
by
reminding
the
chamber.
The
abuse
is
about
the
acquisition
of
power,
and
for
as
long
as
women
are
unequal
in
society,
domestic
abuse
will
persist.
D
Whilst
we
consider
a
stage
one
debate
today,
I
have
got
four
minutes
to
talk
about
a
piece
of
legislation
and
I
can't
help,
but
ask
whether
that's
the
product
of
having
a
business
bureau
that
comprises
entirely
of
men
on
the
issue
of
the
bill
that
we
are
considering
today
are
very
much
welcome.
It
I
welcome
the
contributions
from
all
the
Justice
committee.
Members
are
welcome,
the
way
in
which
this
bill
has
been
produced
by
consulting
on
a
number
of
occasions
about
different
aspects
of
the
bill
and
I
welcome
the
principles
which
constitute
that
bill.
D
I'm,
cynical
schools,
these
days,
presiding
officer
for
a
number
of
reasons,
so
I
like
to
consider
how
the
principles
of
this
bill
might
operate
in
practice.
And
there
is
a
history
in
this
Parliament
of
doing
brief
things
of
producing
grands,
world-leading
legislation
and
then
not
fulfilling
its
promise.
When
it
comes
to
delivering
VAT
in
practice,
just
yesterday
in
education,
questions
I
talked
about
how
proud
I
was
of
the
children,
young
people
Act,
and
the
provisions
that
had
within
it
for
continuing
care
for
looked
after
young
people.
D
But
in
order
to
do
that,
I
think
there
are
four
things
we
need
to
consider:
education
and
training,
resources,
publicity
and
the
relationship
that
this
bill
will
have
with
the
rest
of
the
justice
system
when
it
comes
to
education
and
training-
and
this
was
the
point
made
earlier
already
by
a
conservative
colleague-
we
have
to
make
sure
that
the
understanding
of
the
principles
behind
this
bill
is
provided
and
training
to
staff
who
will
have
any
contact
with
it
altogether.
My
colleague,
Claire
Baker,
has
also
discussed
the
issue
of
resourcing.
D
We
know
that
cuts
to
refugees,
refuge
services
are
already
a
considerable
issue
in
constituencies
across
the
country,
as
is
cuts
to
community
policing.
As
our
pressures
on
housing
I've
talked
in
this
chamber
before
about
meeting
a
woman,
he
was
the
victim
of
domestic
abuse,
who
was
stuck
in
a
refuge
for
18
months,
because
the
housing
list
was
so
considerable.
She
wanted
to
move
on
from
my
experience,
but
she
simply
couldn't
we
will
have
to
do
a
good
job
of
advertising.
D
The
benefits
of
this
bill
to
the
wider
public,
just
as
the
government
have
done
on
the
issue
of
revenge,
porn
and
I,
can
commend
them
for
the
publicity
campaign.
That's
gone
along
with
that,
but
ultimately
we
also
have
to
look
at
relationship
between
this
bill
and
the
rest
of
the
justice
system,
and
some
colleagues
have
already
referred
to
the
relationship
between
this
and
contact
orders
when
it
comes
to
families
with
children
where
that
is
a
necessary
issue.
One
thing
we've
perhaps
talked
less
about
today
is
Criminal
Procedure
and
I.
D
Very
much
welcome
the
sections
of
the
bill
which
addressed
that
and
in
closing
presiding
officer.
I
can't
help
but
think
about
what
would
this
bill
mean
for
the
constituents
that
I've
met
in
my
time
as
a
member
of
this
Parliament
and
I
can
think
of
one
particular
woman
who
came
to
my
surgery,
who
had
experienced
domestic
abuse,
and
this
bill
would
have
helped
her,
but
it
won't
go
quite
enough
in
her
mind
if
I
can
just
give
you
some
examples
of
her
experience.
D
She
came
to
visit
me
to
talk
about
what
life
was
like
for
her
and
her
children
that
having
been
subject
of
an
abusive
partner,
her
children
has
had
to
give
evidence
by
remote
sites,
but
the
Edinburgh
remote
site
was
closed
yet
to
travel,
to
Livingston.
To
do
that
and
that
caused
a
great
deal
of
discomfort
for
the
family,
the
children
weren't,
given
enough
and
kind
of
forward
knowledge
about
what
that
would
be
like
to
give
video
evidence
in
court.
D
The
accused
faced
30
different
charges
was
eventually
convicted
on
10
counts,
with
three
not
proven
verdicts,
but
was
released
for
background
checks
prior
to
sentencing
when
he
was
built
he
absconded
and
then
when
he
was
caught.
He
was
billed
again
personally,
which
won't
be
addressed
by
this
court
and
this
and
today's
proceedings,
but
it
isn't
this
year
about
Criminal
Procedure,
which
I
would
encourage
the
justice
sector
to
look
at
again,
and
on
that
note,
I'll
close.
Thank
you.
Thank.
I
L
You
for
sailing
officer
today's
a
historic
day
in
the
chamber
as
we
debate
the
general
principles
of
the
stage.
One
domestic
abuse,
scotland
bill
its
historic,
because
this
bill
for
the
first
time
introduced
a
psychological
abuse
into
the
public
claim
of
domestic
abuse.
It
has
two
main
purposes:
it
creates
a
new
offense
of
engaging
in
a
course
of
abusive
conduct
against
a
partner
or
ex-partner
and
means
other
procedural
or
evidential
aspects
of
criminal
law
into
in
relation
to
domestic
abuse.
L
In
other
words,
that
recognizes
the
damage
that
psychological
abuse
can
do
and
makes
that
a
crime
in
its
own
right
address
is
a
gap
in
criminal
law
allowing
for
convictions
of
domestic
abuse
based
on
a
course
of
conduct
that
includes
psychological
abuse
rather
than
individual
incidents,
because
we
all
know
that
psychological
and
emotional
abuse
is
just
as
painful
as
physical
abuse.
You
might
not
see
the
bruises,
but
controlling
and
coercive
behavior
eats
away
at
the
soul
and
self-esteem
of
the
victim
each
and
every
day.
L
The
evidence
the
committee
has
been
has
heard
was
heartbreaking
at
all
times
and
I.
Thank
the
witnesses
for
the
remains
bravery
and
telling
us
their
stories
so
that
others
will
not
suffer
the
really
did
domestic
violence,
physical
or
psychological
exists
in
all
sections
of
our
communities
across
all
levels
of
society.
As
we've
heard,
mental
and
emotional
abuse
includes
threats,
criticism
of
appearance
and
intellect
name-calling,
controlling
what
you
do,
your
access
to
money,
where
you
go,
how
you
dress
and
who
you
speak
to
among
many
other
degrading
control
mechanisms
and
the
cowardly
abuser
knows
no
bounds.
L
They'll
threaten
your
children,
isolate
you
from
family
and
friends
and
effect.
Try
to
make
you
a
non-person,
it's
all
about
control
and
controlling
by
fear.
This
bill
aims
to
tackle
all
forms
of
this
vile
claim.
It's
been
welcomed
by
a
wide
variety
of
organizations
as
efficient
with
hair
such
as
Scottish
women's
age,
the
Law
Society
of
Scotland
children
first
and
the
NSPCC,
to
name
but
a
few
presiding
officer.
Children
are
the
Forgotten
victims
of
domestic
violence,
the
reason
which
children
can
be
harmed
by
domestic
abuse,
our
wager
than
simply
witnessing
the
abuse
itself.
L
The
trauma
is
long,
lasting
and
far-reaching.
That's
why
I'm
delighted
that
this
bill
provides
for
a
statutory
aggravator
for
instances
of
partner
abuse
in
which
a
third
party,
usually
children,
are
involved.
The
aggravator
wasn't
part
of
the
Scottish
Government's
initial
consultation
on
the
bill,
but
as
we
listened
to
stakeholders,
children's
charities
and
women's
groups,
it
was
clear
there
was
a
need
for
the
children
to
be
recognised
as
major
victims
of
this
claim.
L
However,
as
we've
heard,
there's
a
few
among
children's
organisations
that
abuse
of
children
and
domestic
violence
cases
should
be
recognised
in
its
own
right.
I
have
to
see
our
sympathy
with
us.
The
government
believes
that
the
bill
strikes
the
right
balance
and
the
any
major
reform
of
the
criminal
law
and
the
Beus
of
children
is
best
considered
separately,
and
it's
currently
under
review.
I
sincerely
hope
that
there's
more
reflect
the
urgent
need
for
recognizing
the
devastating
effect
domestic
violence
can
have
on
children.
L
Another
welcome
measure
is
that
the
bill
requires
the
court
to
consider
whether
to
impose
an
on
harassment
order
to
protect
the
victim.
The
Scottish
will
receive
believe
it's
critical,
that
any
chores
our
children
too,
and
that
Court
should
be
more
willing
to
consider
refusing
contract
contact
to
abusive
parents.
L
I
agree
with
that
too,
and
I
pleased
that
the
cabinet
secretary
is
considering
it
I'm
also
pleased
the
emergency,
barring
orders
have
been
considered
and
that
the
cabinet
secretary
will
enter
into
a
dialogue
with
third
sector
organizations
for
consideration
of
this
measure
at
stage
2
of
this
bill,
presiding
officer,
there's
not
enough
time
to
do
justice
to
all
aspects
of
this
important
bill.
I
can
hear
with
Kezia
Dugdale
is
it's
just
far
too
short,
but
I
hope
that
between
us
across
the
chamber,
we've
covered
most
of
the
salient
points.
L
I
M
Thank
you
for
saying
officer:
a
number
of
people
have
talked
about
filling
a
gap
indeed
Scottish
women's
aide
mention
that
no
briefing
and
I'd
like
to
thank
them
and
others
for
the
briefing
the
cabinet
secretaries.
When
he
was
talking
about
this-
and
he
said
the
next
important
steps.
I
think
this
is
an
important
step.
I
think
there's
more
to
go,
and
that's
been
alluded
to
with
the
comments
about
the
children's
legislation.
M
It
is
about
a
course
of
conduct
that
includes
a
psychological
evolution
and
that's
laid
out
and
section
2
and
I
think
it's
important.
That's
a
non-exhaustive
list,
because
it
is
for
the
courts
to
and
remains
open
for,
the
courts
to
decide
and
I
would
align
myself
with
some
comments
from
I
think
it
was
clear.
We
could
have
talked
about
the
important
role
that
the
basic
abuse
courts
can
play
and
I've
long
been
an
advocate
of
running
that
out
and
people
having
a
clear
understanding
that
it's
about
it's
about
the
timetabling
events
rather
than
new
buildings.
M
This
is
how
about
scheduling
in
people
working
together
and
surely
that's
what
we
want
in
relation
to
this
I
want
to
tell
you
one
phrase
from
the
Scottish
woman's
aide
belief
in
which
I
thought
was
particularly
significant,
and
it
is
that
the
new
law
offers
a
policy
see
change
by
focusing
our
criminal
justice
response
on
the
actions
of
the
perpetrator
rather
than
the
circumstances
of
the
victim.
By
doing
so,
it
will
enable
better
understanding
of
domestic
abuse
and
its
impact
on
women,
children
and
young
people
in
our
communities,
institution
and
country.
M
Now
to
inform
our
back
around
at
an
investigation
of
this
this
legislation,
we
did
hear
testimony
and
that's
been
alluded
to
by
a
number
of
people.
Indeed,
in
a
report
we
say
we
receive
compelling
and
persuasive
evidence
that
psychological
abuse
within
relationships
or
by
an
ex-partner
can
cause
it
mains
an
enduring
trauma
and
and
harm
powerful
and
moving
private
testimony
is
how
it
is
also
referred
to
elsewhere
in
the
report
and
I'd
like
to
pay
respect
to
these
women,
because
this
is
primarily
gender-based
violence.
It's
not
exclusively,
but
that's
what
it
is.
M
I'd
like
to
get
a
great
respect
to
them
and
I
think
it's
very
important
to
see
that
confidentially,
Charlotte
II
must
be
respected,
but
in
some
respects
it's
disappointing,
because
these
women
can
do
far
more
at
explaining
the
need
for
this
bill
and
more
than
any
politician,
it
can
do
so.
It's
great
thanks.
M
So
I
think
laws
are
intended
to
keep
indicate
and
reflects
society's
views
and
I
gave
an
issue
and
I
think
it's.
A
number
of
people
have
said:
there's
been
a
welcome
change
in
relation
to
domestic
abuse,
domestic
violence,
but
we
do
have
a
way
to
go.
I'd
like
to
touch
on
the
question
of
how
the
police
will
respond
to
this
and
I
think
it's
important.
Someone
said
that
Chief
Inspector
Chiefs
to
contend
that
mega-bad
and
Bogut
talked
about
there's
nothing
new.
In
this.
There
is
nothing
new
in
this.
M
The
change
that's
taken
place
in
respect
of
how
police
respond
to
historic
issues
of
violence
that
wouldn't
be
their
initial
reaction
when
they
attained
at
the
scene
of
a
an
allegation.
It's
the
subsequent
inquiry.
The
will
unearth
this
and
we've
seen
some
Tremaine
sparked
by
police
Scotland
in
relation
to
serial
abusers,
whose
violence
hasn't
just
been
visited
on
one
female
victim,
one
household,
but
a
series
of
them
sometimes
over
decades,
and
some
of
the
solitary
sentences
quite
rightly
reflect
the
damage.
M
They've
done
to
a
number
of
life's,
so
I
have
every
confidence
that
the
police
working
with
the
prosecutors
can
properly
address.
This
and
judgments
will
always
have
to
me
me,
but
that's
the
case
with
every
piece
of
legislation
and
and
I,
don't
think
they
need
anything
to
fear
with
that.
Another
term
that's
been
used
in
the
port
was
hard
to
reach
groups.
M
Well,
the
survivors
that
we
hear
from,
and
people
who
were
that
this
legislation
will
assist,
should
it
pass
and
I
sincerely
hope
it
will
they've
been
hard
to
reach
they've
been
felt,
abandoned
and
I
think
what
people
have
talked
about.
The
effect
that
the
criminal
justice
system
has
on
people
it
should
be
supporting
people,
it
should
be
helping
people.
It
should
not
be
victimizing
them
further
varia
limited
time.
M
I
appreciate
am
deputy,
presiding
officer,
but
I
think
it's
important
to
quote,
and
some
of
the
the
evidence
also
from
children
first
also
covered
by
other
people,
and
they
talk
about
a
mandatory
duty
on
court
to
consider
whether
to
impose
non
harassment
order
that
includes
the
children.
In
all
cases
where
the
statutory
aggravation
in
relation
to
the
child
is
considered
and
I
think
that's
very
important.
M
If
we're
going
to
recognize
in
the
aggravation,
then
it
should
be
a
and
picked
up
in
the
order
and
it's
important
for
another
reason,
because
it's
the
the
well-documented
fact
that
child
contact
is
a
as
an
occasion
and
a
location
where
the
further
abuse
continues.
The
psychological
abuse
so
I
hope
that
that
will
be
looked
at
as
we
go
forward
and
again
a
comment
from
Scottish
whimsy
to
ensure
that
abusive
behavior
are
dealt
with
by
the
criminal
courts
as
regardless
are
prima
facie
evidence
of
unsuitability
for
contact
with
a
child
and
I.
N
What
was
clear
was
that
domestic
abuse
is
a
multi-dimensional
scourge
on
our
society
and
all
of
us
which
affects
a
range
of
relationships,
but
particularly
relationship
unequal
relationships
between
men
and
women.
It
affects
those
across
classes
across
wealth,
across
ethnicities
and
across
age,
and
that's
why
I
strongly
support
the
principles
of
this
bill
to
create
a
new
offense
engaging
in
of
engaging
an
abusive
course
of
conduct,
because
that
is
the
lived
reality
of
this
abuse
on
the
ground.
N
It
is
the
lived
experience
of
victims
as
we
speak,
and
it
takes
account
of
the
context
and
impact
of
domestic
abuse.
The
proposed
offense
address
is
a
gap
in
the
existing
law
by
recognizing
and
that's
an
important
word.
The
domestic
abuse
may
not
only
damage
or
violate
a
victim's
physical
integrity,
but
also
undermine
a
victim's
character,
restricting
a
victim's
autonomy
and
freedom
and
their
ability
to
live
their
life
in
the
manner
they
choose.
N
So
the
the
clarity
of
passing
this
law
will
make
it
absolutely
clear
across
society,
in
particular,
with
victim
suffering
that
they
will
know
when
they
are
being
abused
more
easily
and
that
the
criminal
law
will
be
clear
in
its
ability
to
take
judicial
action
on
their
behalf
in
the
interest
of
justice.
I
think
it's
important
to
also
recognize
that
the
gendered
approach
within
this
bill
is
something
that
I
support
and
I.
N
Think
it's
the
right
thing
to
do
because,
as
other
speakers
have
said,
this
piece
of
legislation
is
within
a
wider
context
of
gender
equality
and
addressing
violence
against
women.
And
that's
why
not
just
getting
the
legislation
right,
not
just
making
sure
that
the
criminal
justice
system
is
ready
to
and
resourced
appropriately
to
enact
the
new
powers
and
the
new
abilities
that
this
law
would
give
in
order
to
create
greater
justice.
N
Others
have
touched
on
a
publicity
campaign
and
they're
absolutely
right
that
it's
important
that
there
is
a
government-led
publicity
campaign
that
there's
training
to
make
sure
that
others
in
the
criminal
justice
system
and
the
third
sector
are
able
to
support
and
give
effect
to
this.
This
Bill's
intention,
but
that
greater
awareness
and
that
publicity
campaign
has
already
started
with
the
introduction
of
this
bill
and
the
stage
process
that
we're
at
and
I'd
like
to
draw
the
the
parlance
attention.
In
closing
to
one
project.
N
That's
been
launched
today
by
Scottish
women's
8,
which
is
there
are
1000
words
project
which
is
a
photo
project
and
it's
putting
forward
15
new
images
of
what
domestic
abuse
looks
like
to
get
away
from.
The
perception
that
domestic
abuse
is
only
about
physical
harm
and
to
illuminate
the
fact
that
it
is
deeper
than
that
and
it
is
multifaceted
and
that
all
of
that
range
of
abuse
is
something
that
we
should
tackle,
and
this
bill
we'll
make
a
remarkable
difference
on
that
journey
and
I
feel
supported.
N
C
You
deputy
presiding
officer,
guys
start
to
by
conforming
Scottish
Liberal
Democrats
unequivocal
support
for
this
bill
to
tackle
controlling
in
a
coercive
domestic
abuse,
fall
I,
think
Casey
Doug.
There
was
absolutely
right
to
warned
about
the
limits
that
any
bill,
however
good
it
can
achieve
on
its
own,
can
I.
C
Therefore,
in
turn,
to
persuade
victims
to
come
forward.
Thank
Ben
McPherson
was
absolutely
right.
That
victims
are
looking
for
more
clarity
and
certainty
that
the
abuse
that
they
have
suffered
will
be
recognized
and
actions
taken
against
perpetrators.
So,
as
they
say,
Scott
just
love.
All
them.
I
had
strongly
support
the
principles
of
this
bill
and
welcome
the
contribution
it
can
make
to
closing
the
current
gap
in
our
criminal
law
and
I
look
forward
to
working
with
committee
colleagues
with
ministers
and
stakeholders.
C
It's
improved
and
strengthened
the
bill
in
a
number
of
areas,
and
there
were
a
range
of
questions
that
were
raised
with
the
committee
during
stage
one
initially.
There
was
a
debate
about
whether
or
not
the
scope
should
be
broadened
out
to
encompass
wider
family
relationships,
including
elder
abuse,
and
while
this
appears
to
be
the
approach
adopted
in
recent
legislation,
south
of
the
border.
C
From
the
evidence
we
heard
I'm
certainly
persuaded
that
the
nature
of
the
abuse
between
partners
and
ex-partners
demands,
a
laser-like
focus
and
response
is
not
to
say
there
isn't
a
recognition
of
the
impact
that
domestic
abuse
can
have
on
children
in
a
relationship
or
household
or
the
builders
acknowledged
this
and
establishes
specific
aggravation.
Women's
Scottish,
Women's,
Aid
and
others
are
right,
I
think
in
arguing
that
the
effect
is
not
just
on
a
child
who
sees
hears
or,
as
present
at
the
in
the
house
during
a
particular
incident.
C
C
We
had
concerns
from
legal
experts,
the
Police
Federation
and
others
that
the
bill
mirrors
criminalizing
behavior,
that,
while
unpleasant
should
not
be
considered
a
criminal
offence
and
initially
I
admit
I
was
persuaded
by
some
of
those
concerns,
but
over
the
course
of
the
evidence
that
we
had
I
became
increasingly
satisfied
that
the
tests
were
sufficiently
robust
and
I.
Think
the
government's
responds
to
the
committee's
report
is
further
helpful
in
clarifying
that
position.
Turning
to
non
harassment
orders,
it's
absolutely
right.
C
That
courts
should
be
required
to
consider
these
in
any
case
of
domestic
abuse,
but
we
can
go
further.
Children
first
argues.
John
Finnie
reminded
us
that,
in
all
cases
where
the
statutory
aggravation
is
applied,
the
court
should
be
required
to
consider
an
order
covering
the
child
or
children
as
well,
and
this
seems
to
have
merit
and
we
will
return
to
that
at
stage
two.
C
In
conclusion,
deputy
presiding
officer
I'm
in
no
doubt
at
all
about
the
devastating
and
enduring
impact
that
this
sort
of
coercive
controlling
behavior
can
have
on
a
victim
undermining
their
sense
of
self
holding
them
out.
Slowly
but
surely,
over
time
present,
the
criminal
law
in
Scotland
is
inadequate
to
deal
with
some
such
important
and
pernicious
abuse
I'm
pleased
that
this
bill
can
play
an
important
part
in
writing
that
room
and
we'll
have
great
pleasure
and
supporting
the
general
principles
at
decision-making.
This
is
the
second
time
this
evening.
Thank
you.
Thank.
O
The
social
worker
told
me
the
same
12
years
in
a
local
office
setting
I've
lost
count
of
how
many
times
I
started
at
your
protection
conference.
A
children's
hearing,
a
map,
a
meeting
or
some
other
forum
unhealed
evidence
of
often
a
pervasive
part
on
a
psychological
and
emotional
abuse,
often
over
a
long
period
of
time
that
with
social
and
health
services,
often
having
nowhere
concrete
to
go
with
this.
O
This
is
a
wall
which
is
groundbreaking
and
will
make
a
real
difference
to
service
intervention
and,
most
importantly,
the
ways
of
those
suffering
at
the
hands
of
that
abuse,
which,
mostly
as
well
as
I've,
said
as
men
I,
don't
want
to
say
to
sake
over
here
to
the
cabinet
secretary,
but
because
this
is
an
area
that
has
been
a
part
of
my
life
through
work
for
a
long
time
and
means
a
lot
to
me.
Do
you
think
FS
bill
is
passed?
O
He
can
be
very
proud
and
think
back
and
many
years
to
come
as
just
being
an
absolutely
outstanding
achievement
that
will
have
positively
impacted
the
lease
of
many
and
he'll
change
the
culture
in
this
country,
because
they
know
so
they
call
those
I
do
one
today.
So
my
desk
usually
came
out
you
report
and
the
government
responded
to
a
and-
and
much
has
already
been
saying.
So
that
they
say
it's
there
as
Alaska
repeating
and
thanks,
but
it's
what
we
all
doing.
O
That
was
a
very
small
when
I
stress
out
a
small
number
to
stakeholders
who
expressed
concern
at
the
bar
a
set
to
law.
I.
Don't
I
could
leave
with
that
and
come
out
here.
The
evidence
from
example
from
anima
DX,
but
him
from
the
current
law
secured
a
clone
and
prosecuted
Aeschylus.
Who
did
not
think
that
this
was
the
case
yeah
and
I
welcome
the
response
from
the
government
am
as
long
as
I've
mentioned,
which
outlines
the
thresholds,
which
required
to
be
me
yeah
and
I'm.
O
Sure
that
the
the
cabinet
secretary
will
will
highlight
was
during
evidence
gathering
the
subject
of
children
who
exposed
us
behavior
generated
a
lot
of
discussion
and
I.
Think
most
because
I've
mentioned
that
I
welcome
the
government's
response
in
relation
to
the
review
of
the
children
Scotland
act,
including
our
VF
child
contact
cases,
I
said:
wait.
The
domestic
violence
also
I
welcome
consideration
of
amendments
of
stage
to
tell
well-known
harassment
all
those
to
protect
children
specifically
I
also
think
as
a
forester
state.
O
The
government
admitting
a
woman's
either
by
emergency,
barring
or
dose
and
I,
would
also
encourage
dialogue
on
this
front
with
the
children's
charities,
such
as
children,
foster,
coiba
doll
from
not
service
but
I'm
a
teller
today,
and
we
discussed
us
in
various
you
finally
presiding
officer
like
to
follow
up
in
a
question.
I
asked
the
cabinet
secretary
in
his
recent
statement,
am
to
this
chamber.
I.
Do
believe
that
the
introduction
of
this
offense
and
the
subsequent
pomposity
there's
produced
will
lead
to
more
convictions
and
I
know
the
Scottish
Government
I
know.
O
First
time
from
working
in
the
field
have
invested
strongly
in
criminal
justice,
for
example
a
nearly
a
female
of
Endon
recently,
but
we
will
need
to
ensure
that
funding
is
increased
for
milk.
We're
potatoes,
because
particular
meal
paper
deals
off
domestic
violence.
Programs
can
work,
but
they
need
to.
They
need
people
who
can
specialize
and
do
the
intense
work.
It
takes
a
lot
of
work
to
change
people's
belief
systems.
O
The
change
in
Caledonia
programs
are
examples
of
that,
and
I
would
also
like
to
take
this
opportunity
here
to
encourage
local
authorities
to
use
the
government
investment
to
connect
specific
posts
of
people
who
want
a
nice
area
and
allow
them
to
fake
change,
and
the
last
song
look
I
thought
about
like
to
see
local
authorities.
I
haven't
specific
teams,
they
can
walk
around
domestic
abuse
as
they
do
for
other
areas
of
criminal
justice
and
I.
Think
that
their
statement
it
stay
on
the
lead
direction.
I
see
him
just
over
four
minutes.
O
I
P
Lynn,
toast,
deputy
presiding
officer,
close
and
intimate
personal
relationships
are
an
integral
part
of
our
lives.
Sharing
life
with
a
husband
or
wife,
for
example.
Learning
more
about
each
other
and
experiencing
life
together
can
be
some
of
the
most
precious
times
in
life,
but
when
relationships
break
down,
whether
momentarily
temporarily
or
permanently
such
moments
can
be
the
worst
any
of
us
face.
Worse
still
is
a
situation
where
two
people
have
placed
trust
and
love
in
each
other
only
for
one
of
them
to
turn
around
and
abuse
that
trust
through
physical
or
psychological
maltreatment.
P
Such
abuse
can,
of
course,
take
many
forms
and
leave
deep
emotional
wounds
which
lasts
long
after
a
physical
bruise
or
scar
may
appear
to
have
healed
and
so
complex.
Can
human
relationships
be
that
a
victim
may
not
initially
realize
what
is
happening?
It
is
that
sort
of
complicated
set
of
circumstances
that
we
look
at
now
as
lawmakers
I'm
sure
we
are
all
agreed
that
our
purpose
should
be
to
target
serious
wrongdoings
rather
than
what
might
be
categorized
as
occasionally
irrational
behavior.
P
Human
weaknesses
can,
of
course,
often
cause
disagreements
to
take
place
within
a
relationship
and
as
Andrew
tickle
of
Glasgow
Caledonian,
University,
Law
School
said
in
evidence
and
I
quote
even
broadly.
Healthy
relationships
are
occasionally
characterized
by
hurtful
conduct
jealous
behavior
and
distressing
episodes.
P
So
the
question
is:
is
the
draft
legislation
before
us
sufficiently
clear
or
does
it
blur
the
line
between
a
pattern
of
unacceptable
coercive
and
controlling
behavior
on
the
one
hand
and
irregular
friction
on
the
other?
Does
it
over
criminalize
the
Glasgow
Bar
Association
referred
to
a
wide
scope
of
behaviors,
which
may
be
criminalized
by
this
bill.
P
A
low
threshold
to
establish
a
course
of
behavior
was
a
concern
raised
by
others,
including
the
Law
Society
of
Scotland,
for
example,
and
this
has
been
referred
to
already
distress
as
a
measure
of
the
impact
of
a
person's
behavior
towards
another,
and
I
say
that
this
is
a
valid
and
important
question
which
others
also
referred
to.
Is
the
bar
being
set
to
low
I'll?
Take
the
intervention.
M
I
M
Thank
you,
saying
officer,
I'm
grateful
for
member
teten
intervention
with
member,
except
that
is
the
judgement
of
the
individual
who
chooses
to
pick
up
the
phone
and
says
I
require
the
police's
assistance
that
we
must
take.
Cognisance
of
matters
will
develop
as
a
result
of
that,
but
it's
their
judgment.
Yes,
it.
P
P
Let
us
contrast
the
Scottish
bill
classification
of
behavior
as
coercive
or
controlling,
even
if
it
has
happened
on
only
two
occasions
with
the
Serious
Crime,
Act,
2015,
Frankland
and
Wales.
The
definition
there
refers
to
repeatedly
are
continuously
engaging
in
behavior
towards
another
person
and
home
office.
Guidance
on
the
2015
Act
makes
clear
that
Court
should
look
for
evidence
of
a
pattern
behavior
established
over
a
period
of
time,
rather
than
one
or
two
isolated
incidents
which
do
not
appear
to
establish
a
pattern.
A
serious
concern
arises
on
this
point.
P
Law
should
be
clear,
and
those
of
us
like
myself,
who
have
been
involved
in
the
prosecution
of
these
types
of
cases
in
the
under
the
current
system,
do
understand
that,
and
those
involved
know
that
these
are
sensitive
matters
that
need
to
be
looked
at
very
carefully,
as
mr.
tickle
said,
rather
than
trusting
prosecutors
to
use
the
law
as
it
was
intended.
Legislators
who
tried
to
get
the
law
right
in
the
first
place
and
I'm
sure
that
that
is
what
we're
all
trying
to
be
doing
here
and
what
we
agree.
P
We
should
be
doing
so
in
conclusion,
without
demur
in
any
way
from
the
principles
of
this
bill,
I
would
say
that
I'm
not
entirely
satisfied
that
all
of
the
concerns
raised
have
been
addressed
and
that
the
important
point
is
we
want
the
act
to
work,
and
if
it
is
to
work,
then
we
need
to
see
that
it
will
work
in
practice
because
it
is
watertight,
so
that
has
its
agreed
intended
effect.
Thank
you.
Thank.
Q
You
very
much
presiding
officer,
the
port
and
domestic
abuse.
Survivor,
Christian
Martin
wrote
this.
You
can't
keep
it
in
a
cage,
clip
her
wings
and
tell
her
lies,
say
that
fragile
buds
will
never
meant
to
fly.
Watch
her
left
behind
a
rusty
door,
latched
tight,
Hospit
sloughing
away,
so
you
can
keep
her
in
sight.
Q
Beautiful
creatures
cannot
be
confined,
her
wings
will
grow.
She'll
find
the
sky
I'll
talk
about
that
in
a
minute
presiding
officer
around
one
in
three
women
and
I
grew
a
number
of
men
and
become
victims
of
domestic
abuse,
and
we
would
like
to
think
that
we
find
this
behavior
completely
and
utterly
appalled
and
discussing
which
we
do,
but
some
are
still
too
inclined
to
brush
it
under
the
carpet,
but
we
know
it's
still
happening.
The
evidence
tells
us
that
we
are
better
informed
by
statistics,
but
too
many
victims
are
still
fearful
of
seeking
redress.
Q
Perhaps
some
people
particularly
well
not
exclusively
the
abusers-
have
thought
oh
well,
he'll
get
over
it.
You've
got
over
the
broken
bones:
the
bruises,
the
smashed
teeth
your
life
goes
on,
but
we
know
through
the
evidence
from
the
committee
and
from
other
avenues,
that
that
is
certainly
not
the
case
for
many
victims,
questioners
presiding
officer.
Are
we
doing
enough?
We
need
to
weigh
power,
corn-based
domestic
violence
and
make
it
completely
unacceptable
that
culture
change
that
my
colleagues
talk
about
with
the
right
tools
in
place.
Q
The
spells
tackles
one
of
my
biggest
concerns
that
is
cohesive
control
and
not
victims,
who
are
not
aware
of
being
isolated
from
friends
or
family,
having
access
to
money
and
bank
accounts
restricted
or
having
personal
medical
conditions
revealed
as
domestic
abuse,
and
it
needs
to
be
a
criminal
offense.
This
destiny
is
a
human
life,
using
gestures
and
eye
contact
to
warn
or
control
another's
behavior
can
be
undetectable
to
most
of
us,
but
devastating
to
the
person.
Who
is
the
target
of
that
type
of
coercive
control?
The
justice
settings?
Q
The
justice
committee
saw
so
much
compelling
and
persuasive
evidence
of
psychological
abuse
to
see
it
as
a
real
and
pernicious
issue,
the
effect
of
which
can
be
every
every
bit
as
harmful
as
any
violent
abuse,
presiding
officer
as
important
to
add
here
that
an
increasing
number
of
victims
are
young
men
and
women
in
air
and
the
LGBTI
community
having
a
same-sex
partner
doesn't
protect
you
from
abuse,
they
find
themselves
being
bullied,
humiliated,
laughter
or
rejected,
with
psychological
coercive
behaviors
and,
of
course,
the
physical
violence.
That
comes
with
that.
Q
We
have
to
be
mindful
that
that's
what's
happening
now
and
then
it's
submission
to
the
Scott,
the
Scottish
women's
age,
welcomed
the
principles
behind
the
legislation
and
said
and
I
caught.
The
new
law
offers
a
policy
seat
change
by
focuses
in
our
criminal
justice
response
on
the
actions
of
the
perpetrator
rather
than
the
circumstances
of
the
victim,
and
by
doing
so
it
will
enable
better
understanding
of
domestic
abuse
and
its
impact
on
women.
Q
Children
and
young
people
in
our
communities,
institution
and
her
country
I
agree
with
them,
but
our
present
law
leaves
a
gap,
but
there's
bail,
I
will
close.
It
will
give
better
protection
to
victims
seeking
redress
for
acts
that
will
be
criminal
and
law
at
the
moment.
If
you
want
to
take
a
case,
you
really
have
to
do
so
under
a
claim
that
your
physical
integrity
has
been
attacked
or
threatening.
Behavior
has
caused
you
fear
and
alarm.
Fundamentally
there
spell
careful.
It
defines
the
offense
of
engaging
an
abusive
course
of
conduct
against
a
partner.
Q
I,
expand
and
Han
sees
the
power
of
the
police
and
improve
the
protection
for
the
victim,
and
that's
not
worth
standing.
Some
of
the
asks
that
people
have
asked
for
today,
here's
my
ass
providing
officer
incur
in
conclusion
I
would
ask
the
Scottish
Government
to
strengthen
the
bail
when
it
comes
to
the
impact
on
children.
I
know
Scottish
women's
8
have
some
proposals
when
there's
issues
and
I
would
also
welcome
the
Scottish
Government
confirmation
of
the
review
of
the
children
Scotland
act.
Q
1995
will
include
consideration
of
this
and
I
read
really
Kezia
Dugdale
call
for
similar
similar
mindfulness
I
was
also
asked
a
Scottish
government
to
be
mindful
and
its
review
of
short
term
sentencing
during
the
process
of
the
bail
and
I'm
sure
those
many
organizations
will
tell
you
why
they
have
concerns
about
that
and
their
spell
we
have
an
opportunity,
presiding
officer,
to
break
the
locks
of
that
cage.
I
spoke
about
at
the
beginning
and
we
began
with
us
contribute.
I
R
And
thank
you
presiding
officer
in
this
part
from
the
very
outset
set
out
on
a
journey
to
combat
violence
against
women,
and
it's
good
to
see
this
bill
progressing
and
that
their
support
for
the
need
to
extend
domestic
abuse,
legislation
beyond
physical
abuse,
to
emotional,
emotional
and
course
of
control
within
a
relationship.
And
yet
that's
not
the
end
of
the
journey.
There
are
many
more
issues
that
need
fir
to
be
further
examined
and
legislated
on.
R
Hopefully,
some
of
these
can
be
included
in
the
stage
two
of
this
bill,
but
those
that
cannot
must
be
given
priority.
Our
vision
must
be
creating
a
country
where
we
have
true
equality
and
an
end
to
violence
against
women.
We
need
to
look
at
the
legislation
regarding
children,
victims
of
domestic
abuse,
an
adequate
resourcing
of
police,
social
services
and
support
services
such
as
women
seed,
and
who
do
wonderful
work
in
this
area
and
did
Claire
Baker.
R
My
colleague
paid
tribute
to
them
in
more
than
40
years
in
existence
and
still
working
to
battle
in
this
curse.
We
recognize
the
devastation
that
domestic
abuse
causes
to
women.
However,
we
need
to
understand
that
children
of
the
relationship
are
damaged
too,
and
this
was
a
point
made
by
my
colleagues
like
Claire,
Baker,
Casey,
a
Dugdale
and
others,
including
Lorna
Mackay
and
many
others
in
this
debate,
and
the
bill
deals
with
situations
where
a
child
is
used
as
an
aggravator
to
further
the
abuse
against
the
other
victim.
R
It
does
not
deal
with
the
impact
of
domestic
abuse
on
the
child,
and
domestic
abuse
can
have
long-term
and
catastrophic
impacts
on
a
child,
and
we
had
a
briefing
from
children
first
and
they
said
an
increasing
body
of
robust
international
evidence.
Recognizes
domestic
abuse
is
one
of
ten
types
of
traumatic
adverse
childhood
experiences.
It
can
increase
the
likelihood
of
people
developing
chronic
diseases,
mental
health
and
a
range
of
negative
social
and
emotional
impacts
such
as
the
victim,
such
as
being
a
victim
of
violence
throughout
their
lives.
R
But
is
the
impact
on
children
in
our
domestic
abuse,
brought
up
an
a
domestic
abuse
relationship
and
until
we
recognized
that
impact
and
protect
them
were
falling
short
vegetative
care
to
them?
Liam
McArthur
and
talked
about
the
child's
experience
being
interlinked
totally
with
that
of
their
abused
parents.
A
review
of
the
children's
Scotland
at
1995
will
take
time
and
more
children
will
suffer
in
the
interim
and
there
things
that
we
can
do
in
this
bill
that
will
save
many
more
children
from
being
harmed
by
a
lot
takes
place.
R
I
have
many
cases
where
child
access
arrangements
are
used
to
continue
the
abuse
beyond
the
end
of
a
relationship
added
to
the
impact
of
the
abuse
itself.
This
has
long-term
impact
on
the
child
case,
work
where
our
mother
is
forced
to
send
her
child
into
a
dangerous
place
by
the
courts.
This
is
surely
not
acceptable.
R
I
believe
that
access
arrangements
and
situations
of
domestic
abuse
need
to
follow
umpire
of
the
disposal.
The
proposal
from
Scottish
woman
seed,
children,
first
and
other
expert
stakeholders,
the
children,
should
be
provided
with
a
non
harrassment
order
and
their
own
right
would
prevent
a
civil
court
from
forcing
them
to
have
contact
with
an
abusive
parent.
I
would
argue
that
an
abusive
parent
should
not
have
any
access
to
a
child
until
they
can
prove
that
they
have
changed
their
their
behavior.
R
A
parent
who
creates
a
situation
that
damages
a
child,
should
surely
relinquish
all
their
parental
rights.
This
is
the
case
under
Child
Protection.
It's
just
that
we
don't
recognize
the
damage
witnessing
abuse
does
to
a
child.
Micah
Matheson
and
his
opening
statement
said
that
he
would
deal
with
this
a
new
legislation,
and
indeed
there
are
wide
array
shoes
that
can
be
dealt
with
a
new
legislation,
but
domestic
abuse,
courts
and
experts
recognize
I
thought
a
children's
here
in
order
civil
court
might
not.
R
That
is,
of
some
opposition
to
the
bill
and
Liam
Kerr
pointed
out
that
a
minority
of
those
given
evidence
expressed
reservations
concerning
the
wording
and
practical
effect
of
the
new
offense.
Some
legal
legal
experts
and
police
officers
said
that
it
was
difficult
to
legislate
in
the
realm
of
human
relationship,
and
this
takes
me
back
to
the
days
when
our
domestic
was
something
that
was
referred
to
and
it's
hard
to
see,
but
that
seems
to
resonate
with
some
in
some
quarters
still
today.
These
views
would
indicate
a
need
for
additional
training
of
police
and
prosecutors.
R
I
R
I
S
She
said
it
picks
away
at
your
confidence,
often
in
small
ways
at
first,
so
that
you
don't
even
realize
that
you
are
being
drawn
into
an
abusive
relationship
until
one
day
you
look
in
the
mirror,
and
it's
not
you
looking
back
anymore,
you're
confident
is
supplanted
by
doubt.
Your
freedom
is
enveloped
by
change
James,
because
psychological
manipulation
is
an
evil
and
systematic
poisoning
of
the
soul.
S
And
yet
our
present
law
is
not
sufficiently
expansive
to
enable
what
the
CEO
PFS
described
as
the
effective
prosecution
of
psychological
abuse
and
controlling
and
cursing
coercive
behavior,
which
may
undermine
a
victim's
character,
restrict
a
victim's
autonomy
and
their
ability
to
live
their
life
in
the
manner
they
choose.
This
bill
bridges
that
gap
and
I
commend
certain
elements
of
its
construction.
S
First
of
all,
I
welcome
the
bifurcated
test
employed
in
Section
1
2a,
allowing
the
court
to
take
account
of
any
particular
circumstances
or
vulnerabilities
of
the
victim
which
may
be
preyed
upon,
irrespective
of
whether
that
behavior
in
question
would
be
likely
to
cause
harm
to
the
objective
reasonable
person.
I
am
also
supportive
of
the
inclusion
of
a
recklessness
test
in
determining
mens
rea
in
section
1,
2
B.
This
is
appropriate.
Indeed,
I
would
say
central,
because
a
perpetrator
of
domestic
abuse
can
be
devious
and
skilled
in
manipulation.
S
They
may
present
their
conduct
in
a
manner
which
suggests
at
least
superficially,
but
they
did
not
intend
to
cause
harm
and
therefore
did
not
meet
the
requested
standard
of
mens
rea
a'.
This
bill
importantly
closes
that
particular
backdoor
allowing
effective
policing
of
the
specific
characteristics
of
those
who
control
or
coerce
victims
and
I
also
support
the
statutory
aggravation
of
the
offense
in
Section
4,
which
takes
into
account
the
harm
caused
to
a
child
who
is
exposed
to
an
invasive
environment
which
was
restricts,
access
and
interaction
between
the
victim
and
child.
S
We
have
heard
from
many
members
today,
sandra
white,
Kezia,
Dugdale
and
Claire
Baker
calls
that
we
ensure
that
the
welfare
of
children
caught
up
in
domestic
abuse
is
thoroughly
explored
during
the
stages
of
this
bill
and
I
wholeheartedly
support
those
calls.
However,
as
my
conservative
colleagues
have
highlighted,
we
have
some
significant
reservations
around
the
drafting
of
the
bill,
not
because
we
don't
want
the
bill
to
pass
or
to
do
well
during
the
stages,
but
it
is
absolutely
vital
that
we
make
sure
that
anything
we
put
into
statute
is
enforceable.
S
S
I
would
like
to
have
my
support
to
this
and
I
noted
that
Kezia
Dugdale
also
echo
this
Ben
math
person
made
some
good
points
that
actually,
even
though
the
bill
running
through
Parliament
does
actually
raise
raise
attention
to
the
issues
around
domestic
abuse,
and
there
are
many
pieces
of
good
work
already
occurring.
But
that
doesn't
mean
we
can
go.
We
can't
go
further
and
one
of
the
things
we
should
look
at
is
the
early
intervention
and
prevention
services
for
young
people
who
have
displayed
any
signs
of
problematic
behavior.
S
In
this
context,
Gordon
Lyndhurst
highlighted
the
concerns
of
academics
and
police
that
there
is
a
substantial
risk
of
lowering
the
threshold
of
criminality
due
to
the
ambiguity
of
the
word
distress
in
the
legislation.
We
must
therefore
proceed
with
caution
so
as
not
to
open
the
floodgates
to
vexatious
litigation,
because
this
in
turn
could
undermine
the
cases
of
those
victims
who
really
need
support
and
and
eventually
a
prosecution
and
I,
fully
endorsed
the
comments
of
Liam
Kerr
and
our
advocacy
of
trialing
the
one
family
one
judge
approach
adopted
in
various
countries.
S
Members
we've
heard
many
many
contributions
today
about
the
importance
of
this
bill,
and
not
one
of
them
is
invalid.
I'd
like
to
just
pick
up
a
couple
that
really
struck
me:
Mary
gooze
Jean
prevented
presented
a
very
powerful
contribution
around
non
harassment.
Orders
that
point
that
only
6%
of
convicted
cases
include
an
on
harassment
order
and
that
somebody
who
is
not
affected
started.
Somebody
who's,
convicted,
can
actually
walk
out
and
walk
back
to
the
to
the
victim's
home.
S
I
think
really
highlights
the
the
issues
that
we're
facing
as
we
as
we
take
this
bill
through
Parliament,
and
we
must
make
sure
that
the
very
protection
a
woman
craves
can
be
effectively
given
by
any
bill
that
we
put
in
place.
I
don't
want
to
in
any
shape
or
form
takeaway
from
all
the
calls
that
have
been
made,
but
I
do
think.
S
It
is
really
important
that
that
we
look
as
we
close
out
this
debate,
that
the
principles
which
underpin
this
bill
are
sound,
but
what
we
now
need
to
do
is
make
absolutely
sure,
as
fulton
mcgregor
highlighted,
that
we
have
five
parties
working
together
on
this
we're
in
agreement.
But
what
we
need
to
do
is
nail
down
the
details
as
we
take
it
through
the
various
stages,
so
I
really
join
Fulton
and
saying:
let's
actually
work
together
now
to
amend
and
improve
the
substantive
elements
of
this
bill.
S
We
must
now
address
the
concerns
that
have
been
outlined
today
to
ensure
that
the
right
balance
is
struck
between
the
protection
of
victims
and
due
process
in
our
courts.
Yes,
there
will
be
differences
of
opinion.
Yes,
there
will
be
further
debate
and
discussion,
but
there
should
be
no
doubt
that
the
Scottish,
Conservatives
and
I
hope
that
the
whole
of
this
parliament
will
not
waver
in
our
drive
to
effectively
legislate
and
prosecute
against
domestic
abuse
in
all
its
forms.
We
are
working
to
eradicate
the
scourge
of
domestic
abuse
and
I
support.
S
I
B
Thank
you,
saying
officer.
Can
I
say
I'm
very
grateful
to
do
the
comments
I've
been
made
across
the
chamber
across
party
support
for
the
general
principles
of
this
piece
of
legislation.
As
I
said,
they
don't
say
it
in
my
open
remarks.
This
is
a
unique
piece
of
legislation
in
that
we
are
seeking
to
criminalize
a
course
of
behavior,
which
is
novel
to
Scottish
law
and
some
extent
law
in
the
UK
as
a
whole,
because
it
differs
from
the
approach
that's
been
taken
in
England
and
Wales,
and
I
will
turn
to
that
particular
point
later
on.
B
All
right.
Do
it
come
to
a
particular
issue
around
about
the
issue?
Well,
the
bar
that
we've
said
within
this
particular
bill
is,
at
the
rate
level
or
not,
because
pretty
fundamental
to
the
effectiveness
of
this
legislation,
and
one
of
the
concerns
I
have
is
that
some
of
those
who
believe
that
the
bar
has
been
said
to
law
are
overlooking
the
protections
which
are
built
into
the
bill
in
order
to
make
sure
that
we
have
struck
the
right
balance.
B
Also
to
remember
that
the
test
of
whether
the
accused
behavior
is
likely
to
cause
the
victim
applies
to
the
whole
abusive
course
of
behavior,
and
not
whether,
in
a
single
instance
of
behavior,
causes
such
harm
and
alongside
app
saying
officer,
I
want
to
turn
to
the
issue
about
the
threshold
of
distress
within
the
definition
of
psychological
harm,
because
some
members
have
raised
that
particular
issue
in
Godin.
Lyndhurst
me
raised
it
in
his
contribution
and
Lea
McArthur
and
Michele
Valentine
made
reference
to
as
well.
B
B
I
want
to
turn
to
several
other
issues
that
members
have
raised,
in
particular
issues
around
a
children
and
protection
to
children
case
a
doctor
who
raised
the
issue
cleared
Baker
Maria
goes
on
raised.
The
issue
really
goes
on
raised
the
issue
as
well.
What
I
can
see
is
that
in
relation
to
non
harassment,
orbitals
and
the
committee's
suggestion
that
we
should
extend
the
provision
of
those
two
children's
I
can
confirm
it
stage.
Two.
B
We
will
bring
forward
amendments
in
order
to
do
exactly
that,
to
extend
the
provision
issued
to
children
when
they
are
being
assured
which,
alongside
the
mandatory
provision
that
courts
will
know
how,
at
the
time
of
sentencing,
to
take
that
specifically
in
to
a
to
account.
I
also
want
to
turn
to
the
issue.
B
What
we
will
do,
as
I've
mentioned
is
the
mark
MacDonald
mentioned
in
March-
is
that
through
the
review
of
the
children
Scotland
act,
1995
is
work
out,
providing
a
specific
measure
around
domestic
abuse
for
children
and
a
specific
offense
within
that.
Then
the
review
process.
Well,
though,
those
who
have
an
interest
in
it
and
how
we
can
ship
that
effectively
to
reflect
our
modern
understanding
of
how
impacts
on
children
and
their
welfare
will
give
me
to
kill
and.
D
B
Well,
there
are
mechanisms
and
processes
we
can
put
in
place
in
order
to
prevent
not
from
taking
place
and
for
the
system
not
to
be
abused
so
enough.
So
a
number
of
members
have
also
raised
the
issue
about
a
publicity
campaign
around
the
introduction
of
this.
But
what
I
can
apes
and
officer
assure
members
is
that
we
will
do
exactly.
B
B
The
police,
Scotland
and
odd
officers
with
their
professionalism,
will
be
able
to
see
through
the
implementation
of
this
piece
of
legislation
and
also
enjoy
my
remarks
to
a
close
case,
adopt
a
made-up
comment
and
opening
and
her
opening
opening
comments
where
she
said
that
domestic
abuse
will
continue
to
continue
to
blame
our
society
where
we
continue
to
have
any
quality
within
our
society.
The
reality
is
presiding
officer.
The
best
domestic
abuse
is
a
product
of
social
inequality
in
gender
inequality
within
your
society.
B
I
think
that
this
legislation
itself
will
end
domestic
abuse,
but
what
I
do
believe
will
do
is
it
will
give
support
to
those
women
who
have
to
suffer
the
misery
of
queer,
serve
and
controlling
behavior
over
many
many
years
and
in
some
cases
their
kids
to
recognize
that
this
Parliament
recognizes
their
plight
and
that
we
are
determined
to
do
everything
possible
to
bring
the
perpetrators
of
this
type
of
misery
to
to
many
households
in
Scotland
to
account
through
our
criminal
justice
system?
In
this
bill,
with
supporters
and
assisters,
and
achieving
just
that.
A
Thank
you
very
much,
and
that
concludes
our
debate
on
stage
one
of
the
domestic
abuse
Scotland
bill.
The
next
item
of
business
is
consideration
of
motion:
7
7,
0
8
in
the
name
of
Derrick
McKey.
What
a
financial
resolution
for
the
domestic
abuse,
Scotland
bill
and
I
was
called
Michael
Madison
to
move
the
motion
booth.
Thank
you
very
much.
I
come
now
to
decision
time.
There
are
two
questions
to
be
put.
The
first
question
is
that
motion
7
9:05
in
the
name
of
Michael
Matheson
on
stage
one
of
the
domestic
abuse
Scotland
will
be
agreed.