The Scottish Parliament Chamber Business - September 2017, 20 Sep 2017

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From YouTube: Debate: Finance - 20 September 2017

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S5M-07750 Alex Rowley: Finance—That the Parliament believes that income tax should be
increased to allow greater investment in public services.

Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.

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A

Completed portfolio questions I'll turn now to our next item of business, which is a debate on motion. 775 Seto in the name of a library on Finance and I, would invite all members who wish to speak in this debate to press their request to speak buttons. Now.

A

And I call on a loli to speak to and move the motion in his name.

B

Thank You presiding officer, Guindon delivered her speech on the program for government two weeks ago, Nicola Sturgeon said the time is right to open a discussion about how responsible and progressive use office taxpayers could help us to build the kind of country that we want to be I. Welcome that statement and labour in this Parliament will work and engage in our country to actively engage in a discussion on this issue.

B

In that speech, the first minister said and I call the quality of our schools and hospitals, the safety offer streets and communities, the supply of skills and good ocean and infrastructure are just as important as rates of tax and growing our economy and attract an investment and to Scotland nothing.

B

There I would disagree with, but I would suggest that the levels of funding available needs to be sufficient to ensure that we can achieve those high quality services and facilities, and that is the question at the core of this debate for all these areas of public services. After 10 years of SMT government, we do have major problems and issues that must be tackled. The government cannot simply ignored us, nor can the legislature we of the challenges when many, not all, but many of the solutions require more resources to be made available. So, for example, murder.

C

Freedom I'm very grateful to mr. Lee for giving me his party violet position on tax very different too my own parties, but at least it sets out his view. So you don't think it's a bit rich for the Scottish government to ask opposition parties to set out their stance on taxation where they won't tell us with his own stance on taxation. Is.

A

B

Well, I will come to the point that Scottish government, so we can making the point about resources and not being able to we're just literally. We owe an example with our is that that you can bring in new legislation, as the government is doing, to set targets to eradicate child poverty, but unless you take direct action, the targets will be meaningless and the goal of eradicating child poverty will be nothing more than wishful thinking on education.

B

You can legislate, you can restructure, you can create more bureaucracy and the process, but unless you address the cuts to the school budgets, you will not tackle the core issues.

B

4,000 fewer teachers today than when the SMP came to power, 1000 fewer support staff than when the SNP came to power class sizes bigger today than when the SNP came to power, spend them per pupil across. All wages is down.

B

If pupil spend had remained the same as in 2010-11 primary schools would be 726 million pounds better off and secondary schools would be 300 and a million pounds better off.

B

There are wider issues to be addressed and education, but at the core of the school problem is the cause, and so when discussion talks, how much we raise matters but is also about how government spend taxpayers money the choices that governments make and all not know, I did read with interest the paper published earlier this week by Professor John gawak are the paper expanding in Scotland, relativities and priorities reached the following conclusions: Scottish shelf spending has not kept pace with overall devolve spending effort, hard wood, no be around 1 billion pound per year.

B

Higher increase spending on health has been a lower priority than an England and as a result and less health spending per person has caught up closer to Scottish levels. Spending on Scottish schools has swept over the past decade with 'english spending cuts not despite devolve spending on public services been around 25 percent higher per person. So when we talk about thoughts, we cannot do so an isolation from spending choices that the SMP government have made over these last 10 years. We would suggest Keith Forbes, that's.

D

Rarely then welcomed our amendment in this debate today, which calls for cutting the 1% P cap and bringing an end to austerity.

B

We would suggest, therefore, that part of the national discussion we want to have on thought includes a discussion around the priorities for Scotland and these difficult times a priority. The pick up with something that's welcomed in has to be paid for alfredo philosophy. The Herald newspaper carried an article stating that the finance secretary was asking other parties the same time, their latest income tax plans in order to open up discussion on preparations for the draft budget. The point I have already made is that we need to consider spending alongside concern taxon.

B

It's also important to look income tax and the context of other taxes, and we must consider for other policies. The government have that can increase the tax take across Scotland over our view is that the finance sector must draw the proposal to cut here departure tax by 50%, a tax cut that will cost the public parts nearly a hundred and ninety million pound. That is, a hundred and ninety million pound tax break. That Scotland cannot afford well serve public services Baco due to a lot of bananas.

B

This Parliament must also unite around the demand to the UK government. To remove a police and fire services for pain from peeing via tea, please Scotland pays between 23 and 25 million pound and VAR annual, a Scottish, Fire and Rescue Services pay approximately 10 million pound and Vaart annually that I know the SNP were repeatedly warned about what we tartan on var and that's a fact, but nevertheless we are where we are, and that is not right and we must stop this unfairness.

B

The Treasury's principal argument is that, because we have moved to our national service via T must be paid, however, the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the North Nile and Fire and Rescue Service our national services, and they do not pay ve T and since police Scotland came into being in 2013, several national agencies, the Opera and England have been given via T exemptions. So we need the vit exemption for Scotland and I do hope.

B

The all parties in this Parliament will unite around a call on the UK government to sort this and to sort less now retirement to the FM's. The First Minister's speech for government Nicola Sturgeon also said new plan in BO will also help to secure the housing development that the country needs. I do not think it will help unless the government guest exerts, with the problems that a strong development right now is not just the planning system at fault.

B

Is the lack of upfront money to deliver the infrastructure that will enable development like roads, schools and health centers. We need to work with the industry and local authorities to find a way to overcome the barriers, including the very real body, art of front wooden infrastructure cause.

B

We need a national house building strategy, local delivery plans and a scale strategy for Scotland, and we need the investment to make all these things happen for presiding officer, the more people we get skills for the more jobs we create the larger the tax day we have so it's not just about increasing tax. It's about increasing the numbers of tax payers and it's about increasing the total tax day for Scotland, but can I say, is a hidden officer. I was pleased to hear the First.

B

Minister has committed to publish a paper on tarts before the budget to influence the discussions with other parties. Labour has said that we should use the pearls of this Parliament and we did publish your tax proposals for last year's budget. We said that we will appear on the BSA and higher rate of Taxation and introduce an additional ray of 50p for those with over a hundred and fifty thousand pounds a year and all the to invest and public services.

B

We say I thought this would mean for people and let me say that again, a few earn below 21,000 pound of sorry. After me, progress a few mm below 21,000 pounds. You would not pay a penny more and then come tax now than you did. Last year, fum 28,000 pounds you would now be paying just over 1 pound more a week and then come tax.

B

This is 65 pounds a year, fum 41,000, you would know between an extra three poll 90 a week and then contact just over two hundred pounds a year, any one element, 61 thousand like MSPs. In this place. You would know between an extra 10 pounds a week under a 526 pound a year, and if you are a government minister in 90,000 pounds a year, you would know between 17 pounds more.

B

Are we around 900 pounds more a year, a time when we desperately need investment and our public services and then driving Scotland's economy is right to consider using the taxpayers offer of parliament and a progressive way ensuring that those who are able to pay about more do so. The SMP the SMP, has voted against introducing a 50 table of income tax on the highest earners eight times since 2015 analysis confirmed by the Scottish, Parliament and formation centre, shows that wavers.

B

Amendments to the two previous budgets for 1617 and 1718 would have raised just over 1 billion pounds. An additional tax revenue compared to the tax plans that were passed by the SNP using data provided by HMRC is evident that not only has the total income of wealthiest people in Scotland that as those earning over a hundred and fifty thousand pounds increased by 60% between ten eleven and fourteen fifteen, but the number of wealthy of people almost doubled between 2010-11 and 17 18.

B

There are not opposed to wealth, but those who have a bit more must surely be asked to make a begger contribution towards a better Scotland on the grounds that they can afford to do so, and that benefits all of us if we love and are more fair and more equal society. So we say is no longer acceptable that the SNP government protect the richest world's cotton services for the poorest, a million iya, a millionaire has paid less than two pounds a week extra and then contact because directly of SMP policies.

B

We are happy to present tax policies to the government and they enter into your discussion. But one thing we are clear: they need to change there's exactly 15 years ago, when any chairs faced enormous problems. It was a labor government that Staton and doubled the budget.

B

Today, many of our public services faced enormous problems and there is a desperate need for investment and services and people and an infrastructure it's time once again to make the case for a tax rise for those who can pay a bit more to do so through a progressive tax system and to build a more fair, more just and better Scotland I move the motion, and my name.

A

Thank you, : cabinet secretary Democrat, disputing move motion in his name, Thank.

E

You presiding officer and pleased to have the opportunity to debate income tax policy this afternoon, discussions on income tax will form an important part of a wider engagement, as we work to present a draft budget to Parliament later in the year, and as we know, this is a parliament of minorities in for consensus to emerge, there must be compromised and for compromise to be found, there needs to be a recognition of the responsibilities that we all share and for the government's part we enter into these discussions on tax.

E

Like the other parties with a set of manifesto commitments, we recognize that if every party simply votes for their own possession on tax, we will have stalemate. This Parliament of minorities needs both are responsible government and are responsible or possession. As we announced in the programme for government on the 5th of September, the government intends to publish a discussion paper on income tax. This well, we hope, facilitate an open and constructive debate about how we ensure the sustainability of our public services whilst govern certainty to taxpayers. Of course, literally.

F

Yesterday, in his discussion paper, because it makes a reference to Enys amendment I'm interested in the timing, could it mean that we could have tax increases in this coming budget or, as it is intention that this paper is not concluded until the following budget? So are we gonna have to wait until 2019 20 before we see any real change? It.

E

Is my intention that this discussion paper enables debate for this budget and, in that regard, I encourage all political parties, including the Liberal Democrats, to engage positively in that debate and in that paper, and then we can make progress if mugged or freezer will. Allow me to make more progress and just then to two minutes with page 2 of my speech. Let me make further progress, but we look forward to publishing this and encourage all political parties to engage and to facilitate this discussion at decision time tonight.

E

This government will not, with the exception of opposing the Tories attempts to impose further austerity by reversing the tax decisions. We've already taken, take a position on the amendments from labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens I want there to be an open and constructive debate, and so I and my colleagues will not prejudge the outcome of that discussion, as well as the political discussions like the one we'll have this afternoon with politicians, we're also planning engagements with business, trade unions and third sector organisations.

E

We will commit to using this national discussion to help us ensure that our tax policy continues to help Scotland to be the best place to live, work and do business and we are living in times of austerity. Despite the transfer of other responsibilities, Scotland's total Dale block grant allocation will be reduced by 1.4 percent. That's 411 million pounds in real terms over the next two financial years and between 2010-11 and 2019-20, the Scottish Government's, two Gretchen arey budget will have been cut by 2.9 billion pounds and view terms.

E

Now the UK government's approach to austerity has been neither fear nor progressive and while the Prime Minister lectures the country and the need for austerity, she has found an extra 1 billion pounds to buy the support of the DUP to keep herself in power and, at the same time as the Tories of cut budgets, capped welfare payments and introduced policies like the bedroom tax and the Red Claws.

E

They have corporation tax capital gains, tax and inheritance tax and increased the threshold at which those at the top end of and compare higher rate, and we have always been clear. We had not at this point, we have always been clear. We do not and will not support the UK government's toxic approach to tax breaks for the rich paid for by vital cuts and vital services.

E

We have been similarly clear that we will simply not pass on the burden of austerity on to the Firdous members of society, and it is for that reason that Wells we will not prejudge the discussion on taxation. We will not support the Tories amendment today, which seeks to reverse last year's tax decisions and render useless the taxpayers less. Parliament has and as we began, preparations for the 2018-19 draft budget process, which sets the rates and bans of Scottish income tax.

E

This Parliament does have the opportunity to debate the future of Scotland's public services, but this will not happen in isolation. Whilst it is true that an increasing part of our budget will be decided here in this Parliament, we cannot and should not ignore the impact of the UK government's budget on our funding and whilst the Labour Party's seem to suggest to ignore, what's happened at Westminster.

E

Our amendment makes it clear that we demand of the Chancellor the following an end to austerity, a lessening of the 1 percent pay cut and a fair deal for the nations and regions of the UK, not the grab a deal for the day, P and well sweet and well sweet abate income tax. We cannot lose sight of what they're so mister is.

A

Point friendly point of order is windy in.

G

Berlin this Parliament and isn't it clear that Mr McKay is adopting the riff Davidson rate caused approach that when you're on a Haydn enough- and you just keep your head down and keep reading our pre-prepared speech like a spit, your weight, machine, cetera.

A

Within the cabbage, techne has already taken an internal.

E

Call in contribution to such an important matter the tax rates in this country and how we fund the public services of Scotland. If the front bench want to intervene, I'll take an intervention now James Kelly.

H

Thank mr. Mackay for taking the intervention. You know, I think it's time that you come off the fence and supported increase in taxation in order to alleviate those hundreds of thousands of people who know I in the public sector in Scotland cabinet.

A

Secretary, it's.

E

Time, I think it's time for opposition politicians to behave responsibly and come to an informed decision as to watch right to deliver stability, stimulus and sustainability of the public services of Scotland, and that's exactly the approach we will take by engaging with politicians.

E

Yes, but Wade of Scotland in that fashion and I would see to the country they're all taxpayers and Scotland benefit from access to more three at the point of use, public services than are available in the rest of the UK, and this will help us attract the best workers because of the excellent quality of life living and Scotland can deliver and protecting our public services is also why we have announced the lifting of the one percent pcap ensuring that future policy will take account of the cost of loving and protect those workers and our public services.

E

But for the first minister set out in our programs for government statement, we know that in the face of continued Westminster austerity, the consequences of and demographic change, there will be increasing pressure on those public services. This is why now is the time to enter into this debate and how we use our income tax powers to help protect our public services and ensure that they remain sustainable for the future.

E

As with all our tax powers, I am committed to developing a progressive tax policy and we are committed to keepin progressivity at the heart of our income tax policy, as we believe it is right for those who can afford to contribute the most that they continue to do so. So, in conclusion, I return to the need for this Parliament to engage in a meaningful discussion, offer your suggestions play your part and thus debate. The best government's approach to tax is a responsible thing to do, and I ask members of the opposition to do likewise.

E

In order that we may find the common ground.

A

Thank you and I call and murder freezer to speed to move the moment in his name. Well,.

C

Thank you beside me. Also. Can I start by welcoming the fact the Labour Party have allocated their debating time this afternoon to a discussion on tax? Well, those of us of a certain village will remember all the discussions in previous years around whether this Parliament true to have tax, raising powers.

C

I know able to debate, raising and money as well as simply spending it and is the devolution of additional tax powers to this Parliament by a Conservative government, which now allows us to have these fully rounded political debates with a parliament that is responsible for raising a sizeable proportion of the money it spends. It has to consider the consequences of the tax decisions that it takes.

C

So this is a welcome untimely debate, not least in the context of what the First Minister said when she launched the programme for government two weeks ago, and she wants to debate with other parties about income tax. Just last week, the finance secretary said he was writing to opposition parties asking us to set out our views on tax to help inform the debate. Now in this party, we've always been quite upfront with views.

C

Our position on tax was set out clearly in our manifestos for the elections to this place in 2016 and to Westminster in June this year and that hasn't changed.

C

But the Scottish government seem remarkably keen on asking other parties for their views on tax, but remarkably coy when it comes to revealing their own ideas on tax and I listened with great interest to what the finance secretary had to say just there to try and get an inkling of what exactly the SNP are saying in this debate on tax, where I am none the wiser, so in a second, so the Scottish Government are expecting us to tell them what our tax plans are, but they won't tell us what they are actually proposing.

C

It's a case of you show me yours, but I won't show you mine, that's not the way to our proper to be around these issues. They'll give way to Gillian Marley.

I

C

Well, the tax plans are mr.

I

Fraser one of the things that I hear when I speak to the public I'm sure we all hear the same things is that the public are fed up of politicians having in changed positions and things and.

I

I wonder Finnish mentor, vention federal public of their politicians of all parties have having intense positions and things and surely we should all be welcoming the fight with the cabinet secretary saying: let's have a dialogue about something so important. Margot Fraser.

C

Thank Gillian Martin for that individual, which makes my point for me. We are telling you where we stand on tax. All we're asking is that you do the courtesy of telling us the same in response. Why is there nothing from the cabinet secretary telling us what the SNP positional taxes were? We're quite happy and to be fair, the Labour Party we're happy to see where they stand on these issues. Now I'm and yes, I'm to be fair, the Liberal, Democrats and probably the Greens, do is that covered everybody, presiding officer? Thank you.

C

So I might fundamentally disagree instantly with the Labour Party at least they are open. No I will briefly yeah Alec.

J

Rowley does.

B

He accept that we should not be looking at income tax and isolation from other taxes and indeed spend and well. He and his party get behind the call that all other parties in this chamber have for the UK government to remove VT from fire and police services.

C

That is ongoing at the moment. I would I would simply say. Mr. Riley will know this when the Scottish government were well warned in advance of going ahead with the merger of va te of police and fire services, the VA t would be chargeable in those circumstances, so it's a bit much a bit rich for them to come along and lecturers on these issues where they knew the consequences of their actions.

C

Now without the narrative from the Labour Party, we've heard it from the SNP to about Tory austerity and I've pointed this out in the chamber many times before, but I need to point it out again, because the Scottish budget in overall terms, it's not law today than it was in its previous high point of 2010, as the Fraser of Allender Institute analysis makes clear. The Scottish Government's discretionary spend may be down on its previous high point of 2010, but compared to 2007 the year the SNP came to power.

C

There has been no cut in the Scottish Government's discretionary spending power in real terms, and the cap the Texas tree knows. That is the case unless, just remember, 10 years ago, we were 10 years into a Labour government in Westminster, with Gordon Brown as Chancellor, which wasn't shy of increasing public spending. So the idea that ten years ago, public spending was running short, it is not reflected in the actual facts. So all these shrieking about austerity doesn't reflect.

C

The fact is we're in the same position in real terms we were in in 2007, and nor should we forget, presiding officer. The Juris figures make clear that the level of public spending in Scotland is an excess of fourteen hundred pounds per head of population higher than the UK average I. Think right. We referred to. Let me find us finalise this point.

C

I'll give away as what to make a point, because I think rightly refer to Professor Jim Gallagher's comments from Nuffield College on Monday, when he made I think the very clear point that in some cases, spending on public services in Scotland is 25 percent higher than it is south of the border. The problem is not enough of that. Money is reaching the front line. We should be spending the money better before we talk about raising more money to the cabinet.

E

I think what the fees are for Gavin. Are we in a loop forward to the explanation as to how to fund all these tax cuts, which theory of government Scottish government expenditure? Will the Tories choose to balance the books, not.

C

Offensive Derek McKay has not been listening if he'd looked at the analysis in the jurist figures which I understand the Scottish Government supports by all the howls from their backbenchers about how discredited they are.

C

If you looked at what Professor Gallagher had said in the report that came out on Monday, the point he is making is this: there is far more money going into Scottish public services than is the case elsewhere in the United Kingdom and yet in too many cases the outcomes are pure and the answer there for cabinet secretary is public sector reform, not putting your hands into the pockets of hard-working taxpayers across the country. That's me, to do.

C

I mean I suggest he takes a leaf from the front from the book of his colleague, the cabinet secretary for education, who's, adopting lots of excellent conservative ideas on education, reform, about pushing money down to hate teachers and giving them control of budgets. That's the sort of reform we need to see cabinet secretary. That's the way we deliver a bang for our buck.

C

J

You extra change already taken it's a matter for.

C

You, of course, oh, if I'm, given extra time, of course, I'll give me.

E

Katniss acres, but with model freeze are not reflect on the point that actually we increase spending to education directly through the attainment fund in a fashion that model Frieza is suggesting a notorious voted against that as well. Mother.

J

C

Don't recall his booty against the attainment fund person, we vote against his budget because his budget was putting his hands in the pockets of hard-working Scottish families. And the point is you have plenty of money cabinets? Actually, you just choose not to be wise in how you spend it and before you start raising more money from hard-working Scottish families start using the money. You've got better, so what we should not be doing presiding officer is raising taxes. Any more. We've ready see an income tax differential in response to the program for government.

C

We sold business organizations like Scottish Chambers of Commerce, the Scottish Retail Consortium, expressing their concern about the impact that further tax changes would have on business and the economy. Thus College Retail Consortium said any notions about increasing income. Tax rates should be firmly knocked on the head, as it could cast a pall over consumer spending, a mainstay of the Scottish economy. Are there any of the SNP rhetoric around this is that they are all over the place when it comes to tax, because, on the one hand, they talk about a debate around increasing personal taxes.

C

On the other hand, when they find that sector stood in this Parliament just last week, talking about business rates and now it's a whole range of new exemptions in terms of business rates, which, of course, we welcome. He explicitly accepted the argument that business rate exemptions would help business and therefore help grow. The economy, they're, arguing, of course, for cuts and near departure tax, a very sensible policy, because that will grow the economy.

C

John Mason, the man not usually shiny in making the case for increased taxes even put down a motion in Parliament last week supporting a case for a reduction in their departure tax. Can you one weekend you prefer argument? Yes,.

J

C

Waiting there arguing for tax cuts, presiding officer the very next week, they're arguing for tax rises. Thank they need to make up their mind. Presiding officer, I have pleasure in moving them in. Thank.

J

C

J

Outcall Patrick Harvey to speak to move amendment 75 will point see mr. Harvey seven minutes. Please thank.

K

You very much deputy presiding officer, always a pleasure, of course, to follow mother Fraser in a debate from the political party that entered office, delighted and tickled pink. In fact, I have a note saying: there's no money left he's now said: you've got plenty of money cabinet secretary, there's plenty of money were awash with money apparently, and we just need to spend it. Definitely I I really, don't think that stacks up can I acknowledge the way that Derrick Makai has, and indeed the first notice that has opened a debate.

K

A discussion on taxation I wish, of course, that we'd been there two years ago or more, when the Smith Commission agreed that income tax rates and bands would be devolved. That's when we should have begun the open discussion, but immediately as soon as those powers are available, taking a more creative approach. However, we are where we are and Derrick mcCane is correct when he said in his speech that if all parties just dig their heels then and stick to their manifestos we'll get nowhere.

K

Well, it's a point I made to him in the letter I sent to him on Friday. In response to that call for submissions, I said it would clearly be impossible for a coherent tax policy to imagine if all parties stick doggedly to 2016 manifesto possessions and that's clearly going to be the case.

K

If we want to make progress, all political parties that seek a more progressive taxation system are going to have to be able to enter this conversation, where the constructive spirit and to expect the same from the Scottish government to be fair, so I'll remind people of the green manifesto possession, not in the sense of digging my heels n, but in offering this as our starting point, because we began with some central objectives.

K

First of all, of course, to raise adequate revenue, and we believe that there is a need to raise more revenue in Scotland than is currently being raised in order to achieve the quality of public services. People expect and demand, but also a purpose of Taxation policy must also be to close the inequality gap and I. Think these two central objectives should be ones which all parties seeking a more progressive tax policy should be able to support. Yes, indeed, as it.

J

L

Giving we, in light of his own party's position, does he accept that introducing a new top rate of tax wouldn't raise enough revenue to tackle the austerity he talks of, and there are fourth the government serious about protecting public services. It will have to do something with the basic route.

K

Indeed, Anto and to run through the changes that we suggested to the basic and other rate, we first of all, don't accept the premise that, in order to raise more revenue and closed at the inequality gap, we have to raise tax on all low earners who our first acknowledgement was, of course, that the personal allowance is reserved. We can't change that, not that we would wish to not that we would buy into this rhetoric around ever increasing personal allowances being progressive they're. Not they.

K

The bulk of the benefit that goes from an increase personal allowance goes to people who are higher than average Airness the basic rate, though we should not constrain ourselves and say that that must remain a single basic rate for all time. Our proposal was to split it into two to reduce the first rate from 20 percent to 18 and to increase the second rate from 20 percent to 22.

K

We put the tipping point, the point at which people start to pay a bit more tax, a bit more income tax at the level of approximately the average full-time salary in Scotland. Now we based our figures on those that were available at the time in the run up to the 2016 election, of course, and if they require to be revisited, we're obviously open to that. We then suggested an increase to the higher rate from 40 percent to 43 and to the additional rate from 45 to 60 and I.

K

Acknowledge that there's an ongoing debate, a discussion about whether those additional rate tax payers would in fact be paying more tax, whether we would increase revenue or whether we would in fact increase tax avoidance behavior the kind of behavior that I hope most of us would deprecated and want to prevent, but which we have relatively few measures to prevent in Scotland. But there is no evidence that I've seen no evidence that I've seen that that tax avoidance concern is in any way relevant to the higher rate.

K

There is some mixed evidence that it may be relevant to the additional rate, but there is not a reason to refuse to increase the higher rate and additionally, because of that second policy objective. We have in our tax policies of reducing inequality. I would say that, even if the increases that we propose that the additional rate only have the effect of suppressing excessive pay demands by the super-rich, that is a good thing for society in its own right now.

K

The effect of this, the effect of this, obviously those below those earning below the the personal allowance would continue to pay no income tax. Those downing fourteen thousand two hundred pounds a year compared with the rest of the UK as it stood at that election period, we'd be paying fifty four pounds less per year in income tax. Those earning twenty-seven thousand seven hundred and ten would be paying twenty four pounds more a year. So it's that tipping point of roughly a full-time average salary.

K

Those only forty thousand pounds a year would pay two hundred and seventy pounds more per year. Those on like ourselves on MSP salaries would be paying over twelve hundred pounds a year and I refuse to accept that anyone on our very, very generous salaries cannot afford to make that contribution.

K

I'm, sorry that I didn't calculate what the cabinet secretary on his cabinet secretary salary would be paying, but the highest paid public post at the time was the chief executive of Scottish water being paid something in the order of two hundred and fifty thousand pounds, and he would be paying nearly fourteen thousand pounds or more in taxation and on a quarter of a million pounds of income. I refused to accept that such a person can't afford to make that extra contribution.

K

Now, since this time, of course, deputy presiding officer, we see increased inequality, we see increased public pressure on public services and we see the needs urgently to end. The public sector pay cap and like Alec Riley I, recognize that that must not just be done but must be paid for if it's not gonna result in more job losses in public services, but at the same time, at the same time as saying it must be paid for. If we pay for it by increasing taxation on lower-than-average Anas, how much progress have we really made?

K

How much better off? Will they really be if their pay goes up a bit and that tax goes up a bit as well to pay for it very briefly, deputy presiding officer, the first half of the SMPS amendment I, have no objection to at all. The second half seems altogether to neutral. It also preempts our own amendment, so we'll vote against it.

K

The conservative amendment seems to be based on the principle that there's never a case for increased tax rates in one jurisdiction than another if it works one way it watched the other way and it amounts to an opposition to the principle of tax devolution and the Liberal Democrat possession I await with interest I hope it is not still predicated on increasing by a penny to all honours, including those below an average salary. I still see no reason why people aren't below average incomes should be asked to pay malankov.

J

Please move the amendment. Thank you. I call Willie Rainey to speak to a move amendment 7, 7, 5, all point to 7 minutes. Mr. Rainey Thank.

F

You Toby presiding officer, this is a another great opportunity to discuss tax and I'm grateful for Patrick Harvey. That is read at the Green Party's tax code this afternoon, because we're all much more well-informed as a result of that, but I think what we should be focusing on is the real principles behind the decisions that we need to t know we will be engaging with the finance secretary in this year's budget.

F

Will do it constructively, just like we did last year, just like we've done it and every other year and since I've been leader and before that too, because it's important that was a parliament of minorities that we seek to work together. Wherever we can, we won't just agree to anything. Of course, we've got to have significant concessions from the Scottish Government to refer the fact that they are not a majority in this Parliament and that's why we'll be putting forward our proposals?

F

No we've said very clearly in election campaigns and I'll proceed to set out our proposals this afternoon and I think it is quite instructive to also learn about the other party's proposals, because the Conservatives seem to adopt an approach, though, of a small state approach, cutting tax at every possible opportunity, irrespective of the consequences the Labour Party seem to be in favor of increasing it, sometimes at every opportunity, no matter what the consequence is: I'm, not quite sure what the SNP position is, because the rhetoric I have to admire them.

F

The rhetoric is fantastic: they condemn the Conservatives for cutting expenditure, but then follow the conservative budgets almost to the penny in in our own budgets. Up here. Despite the fact they we have many more powers in this Parliament, something that my party it was at the forefront of arguing for, and we were able to deliver in that great coalition between 2010 and 15, and on that point I'll hand over tomorrow, Fraser on.

C

Cue mr. Fraser and the point I was going to ask mr. Rainey is: would you agree with me that this this discussion, we are having a known tax where all the opposition parties are setting out their tax plans. That discussion would be considerably enhanced and enabled if the Scottish National Party were to tell us what their tax plans are. Willie.

F

Ray I found slightly disagree with model freezer because actually I think. The fact that they prepared to have this discussion is an indication that they're prepared to move away from their manifesto commitment. So I think that is a significant point that the team, but hasn't identified so far, and it's something that we on these benches would welcome.

F

So I hope actually that it does indicate that and I was pleased that the finance secretary in response to my intervention earlier on did indicate that it was possible that it could happen this coming financial year that in fact we could have a change in the spring of 2018 as early as that, I had concluded that actually what the finance secretary was up to was to publish a discussion, people to trash everybody else's and tax policies in advance of the proposals, but I, don't think he's as cynical he's, not as cynical as that.

F

So I don't believe that would ever have been in his mind at all. And but there is an opportunity for us to perhaps push the finance secretary a little bit further. So he's actually prepared to move away and from the manifesto commitment that he made only only last year. So that's a that's an encouraging state, but so far, despite that tough rhetoric, all the years in government they've tended to follow almost exactly to the penny in the budgets of the Conservative Party.

F

So perhaps we make a change that's coming year and that would be a welcome thing because we might be able to get the investment that we're looking for no Liberal Democrats are not in favor of increasing tax automatically every opportunity or cutting tax. Every opportunity is about a balance and we do recognize it's a balance between public expenditure and personal expenditure, the ability of people to be able to afford to live their daily life, as well as the government to be able to afford them to provide the services that we all need and depend on.

F

So it's a our proposal on tax is a limited proposal, not an indication of more to come, not a proposal to increase taxes right across the board, as some others might prefer to do so so limited proposal of a modest penny on income tax worth 500 million pounds which would invest in education. We would call it hypothecated taxes in order to invest in colleges, schools and nurseries, because we have a fundamental problem with our education system.

F

It used to be one of the best in the world and it's now just average and that needs to change, and we believe we've sadly concluded that we do need to raise more tax in order to put that investment into colleges, schools and nurseries, 150,000 places, not just that 150 thousand places cut from our colleges. The whole principle of lifelong learning has been abandoned by this government.

F

We need to invest more than women and mature students as well a pupil premium that we've advocated for years, and eventually we got the Scottish Government to embrace the policy. After condemning it all that time we no need to catch up. We believe there needs to be more investment in the pupil equity fund. The SMP prefer to describe it, and then nostril is one of the biggest revolutionary steps.

F

I think we can take the best educational investment of 30 hours for two three and four-year-olds need to invest in buildings and also in the training and the staff to be able to throw those nurseries. Those are big expenditure items. They'll have a transformational effect on education that will benefit the economy for the longer term by providing the skilled workforce that we need to drive forward standards in our society.

F

So that's our proposal and the reason why we are proposing a penny on income tax across the board, and the basic rate is because that great conservative Liberal Democrat government managed to increase this tax special going up to twelve and a half eight thousand pounds. I've not had that many people congratulating us for doing that exact proposal, but as a result, as a result of that you'd have to err in something like twenty thousand pounds before you would pay a penny more in tax.

F

As a result of this from one year to the next somebody in a hundred thousand pounds who would be paying fifty times more than something on twenty-one thousand pounds, that's quite progressive and I believe that's why we can afford to do this and protect doors on low incomes and those who ignore that deny the facts now. One final point: I would like to make just a bit more information from the finance secretary on his discussion paper. We've had an indication of when this is going to be published in time.

F

For possibly this year's budget I want to know who's going to write. This are the special advisers going to have a rule? Is it going to have conclusions they're going to have a narrative to it, or is it going to be evidence-based? This is going to be facts and figures, or the SMP special advisor is going to put some kind of spin on it. What I'd like to do is the basic facts to be presented, so we can all draw own conclusions to inform the debate.

F

I am deeply worried, deeply worried that the SMP used this as an opportunity just to shape the other party's proposals and purport and promote their own proposals instead. So like some reassurances from the finance secretary on that, thank you. Please.

J

Move your Amendment, please move your amendment. Mr. aney aney.

F

J

Have only three minutes and Handford interventions I want to give people opportunity to extra time, but intervention once that's run out taken intervention and it has to be within your five minutes: Jackie Bailey, please, five minutes.

M

With only five minutes, presiding officer I'll dispense with the niceties and cut to the chase, because if you want decent public services, you need to pay for them. If you want the best possible education, good schools, top quality teachers and well resourced classrooms, you need to pay for them and if you want the best possible health care, a well resourced NHS, where staff are valued and patients are at the heart of all that you do. You need to pay for that too.

M

But if you want to end austerity, which the SNP has chose not to do, if you want to stop being a conveyor belt for Tory cuts, you need to make different choices about what you value, presiding officer. It's not rocket. Science had Labour's proposals on taxation been accepted. This Parliament would have raised an extra one billion pounds over the past two years. That would have ended austerity and invested in the public services. We all value, of course, kidnoh.

D

Sorry does the member think that somebody on twelve thousand pounds a year should Pete and Tory austerity.

N

D

On twelve thousand.

M

Pounds a year would not have had to pay to enter your starid. You could have made choices in government that actually ended. Tory austerity- you chose deliberately chose not to do so, and Scotland should not forgive you for that, because I well remember. It was neckla sturgeon who rejected those proposals, saying it would not be radical, it would be reckless, it would not be daring, it would be daft now, a mere 18 months later.

M

The First Minister has changed her tune about tax, and is that because there is a yawning gap in their budget because after all, they start was having to find at least a hundred and ninety million pounds just to stand still Derek Mackay sleight of hand last year was to bundle together under spend, which had yet to be reported financial transaction money and changes to the budget exchange mechanism.

M

All of this for one year only and then was the SNP spending commitments for the years ahead, an increase in health spending by 500 million, maintaining real terms from to the police authority, doubling childcare provision, and then there are the commitments to higher and further education, reducing the attainment gap, concessionary travel, although I think you might be moving away from that greater welfare spending. What's the price tag for all of these things?

M

Now in 2016-17 there were projections for a budget cut of three to four percent in real terms by 2021 I heard the cabinet secretary use a different figure, but it would be useful to have clarity on Scottish government forecasts for the next few years to inform discussion about the level of Taxation that might be required to close that gap. Now I've heard rumors emanating from the cabinet secretaries office that he's looking for an extra six hundred million pounds. That's the scale of the cuts we would face.

M

I noticed he didn't, like my suggestion, presiding officer, but neither did he deny it to cover that cut in the budget to cover that cut in the budget and new spending commitments could mean that some unprotected areas of the budget and no because you weren't fast enough- you weren't fast enough, so please listen. Some unprotected areas of the budget could face cuts of 10 to 17 percent. That's simply staggering! So no wonder the SNP now want to talk about tax and then presiding officer.

M

There is the ending of the public sector pay cap, something labor campaign for and strongly believe in and I'm pleased that the Scottish Government have finally come round to agreeing. But if you take a 1.5% pay rise across the Scottish government areas of responsibility, the Civil Service NHS police and fire that could cost an extra 150 million pounds each year and already already there are requests for much higher rates of pay and that figure doesn't even include local government.

M

So I am disappointed, however, that despite the additional powers over revenue raising the a Genki amendment focuses in part on the UK government and I hope that the SNP is not suggesting that a pay rise in Scotland is conditional on what the UK government does, because that would I will. Indeed that would be lessening workers in Scotland down very badly. Indeed, will.

J

Have to believe the members coming into the last few minutes. The last.

E

Minute, unlike the Labour Party in Wales, this government will lead by example, and we will not wait to see what the UK government does on lefting. The pcap Jackie.

M

Bailey well I very much welcome government action. It follows years upon years of the cabinet secretary and his predecessors, writing writing to the pay bodies saying that the cap at one percent should remain so. We will wait and see what you do presiding officer. The SNP government need to tell us the size of the cuts that are coming this year. They need to share with Parliament the scale of the spending pressures and they need to set out their taxation proposals.

M

Isn't it interesting that the only party in this chamber that is yet to set out their proposals for taxation is the SNP and that's simply not good enough? The SNP amendment is weak, it's wholly inadequate and it's truly pathetic, but what I will give you is that it's consistent blame somebody else ask others for their ideas so that you can copy them and when all else fails presiding officer, dissemble, hide behind assertion. Rather than taking action.

J

Thank you very much. No other members, Kate Forbes. We followed by bill Bowman five minutes. Please I'd.

D

Like to start presiding officer by thanking the Labour Party for being so quick and willing to work with the Scottish Government on tax matters, it's been less than a week since Derek Micaiah names. The government's intention to hold a big discussion on taxation and the Labour Party. Uncharacteristically, quick to collaborate has used the first debate slot to do exactly that, and perhaps we will be able to help the Labour Party think through its own position on tax. It talks about wanting to increase tax.

D

Is that in line with a Scottish manifesto, the UK manifesto or something in between the Conservatives have been, on the other hand, characteristically less welcoming condemning us for not prejudging the outcome of the discussion and I want to spend my time touching on two issues: one the limits of income tax as a single tool to transform the Scottish economy and to the importance of growth, because this new discussion on taxation is, of course, only one side of the balance sheet, and we generally spend more time in this chamber debating the other side.

D

What kind of country we want to be, and that's what our amendment highlights. This afternoon end austerity become the only government in the UK to lift the 1% pay cap and provide certainty for taxpayers, public services and the economy, and I can only presume that Labour will welcome this wholeheartedly, despite their own government in Wales, not lifting the 1% P cap and whatever we agree or disagree on this afternoon.

D

I know from the debates that both the Conservatives and the Labour Party have held in this chamber in their own time that we all believe it's important to invest in the future. Take housing, for example. This time last week the Conservatives called for more investment in housing and they've done the same on health on education, never mind all the portfolio, questions on funding for other issues and they're perfectly entitled and commendable to do this on behalf of their constituents.

D

But I would like to know where how they expect to pay for it, because cutting taxes is not going to help cutting corporation tax Marta.

J

Freeza much.

C

Obliged to keep folks from giving away I wonder if she read the analysis from Professor Jim Gallagher of Nuffield College that was published on Monday in relation to the Scottish budget, where he made the point that headline spending as scholars of public service. It was far far higher than that payable south of the border, and yet outcomes were substantially cooler. Does that not suggest there is scope for spending money more wisely than we are currently doing? Keith hopes well.

D

I think it does make an important point about the fact that the priorities of the Scottish Government is to ensure that money is spent on health and education, and he murder freezers quite right to comment that public spending particular on the NHS is higher in Scotland, because that is a devolved matter.

D

Of course, we do need to continue having that discussion on how we spend money and if we can start with a bit of collaboration around tax and hopefully we can start, we can continue that collaboration around other areas of the economy, because cutting corporation tax capital gains tax inheritance tax and increasing the threshold for those at the top end of income tax will not be for that increased investment. We want to see at the cutting edge of public investment and even M No No.

D

Thank you very much and to the purpose of the discussion on taxation and, of course, our discussion on taxation is pretty narrow. It's essentially around one tax and we only have half the powers of that tax income. Tax is just one tool in the toolbox and we've only got powers over rates and thresholds and sorry I'm going to keep going. We don't have powers over the personal loans, gift, deed or other allowances. We don't have powers of receiving or dividends and in terms of the full toolbox of Taxation.

D

We don't have powers over capital gains, tax, corporation tax or inheritance tax and of course, taxation is only one fraction of our budget from devolved taxes. I'm not going to mention that our overall budget continues to be reduced, as Merle Fraser admitted as a result of austerity I'm going to use the Tories own argument in calling for economic growth, but you can't grow by cutting the UK government's approach to our economy has been weak and unstable and it has huge consequences for every nation in the UK. The.

J

Kobra will be closing shortly she's in the last minute. The.

D

Current condition of the UK economy is a very, very poor advert for austerity. After years of politically motivated austerity, we have slow growth, rising inflation and low wages in June. The UK economy fell to the bottom of the EU growth leak. As the first quarter, figures of 0.2 percent GDP growth was lower even than Greece, where growth was 0.4 percent. But it's against that challenging backdrop that productivity growth in school and is outperforming the rest of the UK.

D

We have secured more FDI projects than any other parts of the UK outside London and the unemployment rate is close to a record zero. So we will continue to grow the economy, we'll have a frank discussion about taxation and we'll continue to invest in the future of our country by calling for an end to austerity and I'd like to point out that I am the PLO to the cabinet secretary. Thank.

J

You very much there is now no spare time in hanso interventions we'll have to absorb them. The five minutes the members have allocated a coal bill, Bullman followed by John Mason Thank.

O

You, deputy presiding officer, let me begin by recognizing that the parties of this Parliament have a common purpose. Even if we disagree how best to do it, we all want to see a fair tax system that allows us to support world-class public services. On these benches, we don't believe the way to do that is by saddling hardworking Scots with ever more taxation. What we should be doing is working to boost the economy and grow the tax base to generate bigger tax receipts for longer and I.

O

Welcome the comments from opposite earlier about that, for example, we might debate the detail, but I welcome efforts by the SNP to cut the air passenger duty to boost tourism and Scotland's participation and the global economy. So what I've welcomed efforts from the SNP to avoid raising income tax last year, just before the Scottish Parliament election, the SNP promised to freeze basic rate during this Parliament increased the high rate threshold in line with inflation and Nicola Sturgeon, even calls suggestions to increase their the additional rate. Daft.

O

Let me make some progress, please thank you, the fast forward, and they have now refused to rule out a basic rate increase, have said they're, considering increasing the additional rate and have sold off their higher rate commitment to buy green support for their budget. Sadly, this is the sort of opportunistic approach to policy that we have come to expect from the SNP more concerned with boosting boats than the economy, and the economy certainly needs a boost.

O

After a decade of SNP economic failure and the constant threat of constitutional uncertainty compared to the UK as a whole, Scotland's growth has been sluggish. Businesses face enormous great, simply says: I mean oddly dodged. The recession earlier this year to make matters worse. The SNP of given Scotland the dubious honor of being the most heavily taxed part of the UK can't.

J

Ab, the secretary thanked.

E

Bill Pullman for taking the intervention can ask a woman who spent two minutes talking about the essay and peace possession. Can you explain the possession of the Conservative Party or an income tax specifically bill.

J

O

Thank you for that intervention. I think I've covered that, but let's contrast that, with the two and a half million Scots two and half million Scots who can keep more of their money thanks to the income tax cuts by the UK Conservative government and our commitment, the Scotland should not have a higher tax burden than the rest of the UK. Both the IFS and Scottish chambers of commerce have warned against the SNP higher taxes Enda, and we believe that such warnings should be heeded to ensure Scotland is not put at a disadvantage.

O

I'm sure there is no shortage of ideas on how to use Scotland's taxpayers to boost our economy and I know that mr. Mackay has been in Herald asking for such ideas. Given the hints that he might student raise taxes, it would be a welcome development if the secretary is serious about engaging with different opinions, because whenever taxation is raised, this chamber loses one of its great strengths, its diversity of ideas. That diversity is all too often replaced by a two-party system: the Scottish Conservatives and the left-wing consensus.

O

We we see it playing out already in addition to having increased taxes. Last year, the SMP are threatening another assault in workers pay packets with labor in the Lib Dems cheating them on both the Greens tax plan seems designed to wage war and any an old possible income that we have time and again we hear them together. First thing that same sera tune tax-and-spend, but as the chuden scots don't want to listen to a recent poll found that only 13 percent.

O

I think I'm that found that only 13 percent support an increase in the basic rate and 44 percent fewer than half thought. The higher rate should be increased. Even raising the additional rate didn't go down well with just a third thinking. It would boost the economy, the left-wing consensus sales, scotland short, because they have already decided on the answer before asking the question it isn't, should we raise taxes but by how much it isn't? How do we get the best value for taxpayers, but how much more can we spend?

O

Where is the outrage at 178 million spent on the SNP shambolic capi t system, which is now 75% over budget or the 5 million court, fines written off or the hundreds of millions and lb TT revenues that were not generated as expected? That is money that could have gone into critical public services, and it shows why we need these debates to move beyond simply assuming tax rises. We believe in working with others where there's common ground, but we also believe that Scotland is ill served when common ground turns to ideological dogma.

O

Scotland's workers can't afford a parliament seeking to pick their pockets. Increasingly, people recognize that it's only the Scottish Conservatives who offer a genuine alternative to the high tax agenda put forward by the other parties. We are already delivering for Scottish taxpayers at Westminster and we want to see a fair deal for them here at Hollywood and now.

J

You must confirm for now you must completely conclude our moving on a college only simply followed by Newfoundland mr. Mason, please a.

P

Thank You presiding officer, clearly attacks can be too low so that we can afford decent services or it can be too high so that people move out of the country or go to great lengths to avoid and evade tax, so in, amongst all the heat and rhetoric, we're trying to find the right balance today and over the coming weeks between the level of tax and the level of expenditure. Now I certainly have heard some people say to me: they are prepared to pay a bit more tax in order to protect valued public services.

P

However, it's true that I've also heard constituents say that it is unfair to raise taxes when costs are going up and wages have been largely static. The SNP has been reluctant to increase income tax, especially for low earners, and this is especially the case I for very low earners who face a marginal rate of 32% when income tax and national insurance are combined, and this is especially unfair when additional rate tax payers and 45% are only paying 2% n I see giving a total of 47%.

P

We certainly do not have a very progressive system at the moment when the lowest rate is 32 percent and the top rate is 47 percent. So my first point would be that if we were to design a truly progressive income tax system, we need control of both national insurance and income tax and treat these, which are both income taxes as one.

P

However, that is not where we are at the moment, and we have to consider what we should do with the powers that we do currently have and as a parliament, we are all going to have to compromise a bit if we are going to get a budget through this year. No one party is a majority and, as we've heard already, no one is going to get all that they put in their manifesto.

P

However, I do think there are some clear majorities in this Parliament and in fact, bill Borman spelt them out just know. The Conservatives are a minority in this Parliament. The Conservatives are a minority in this country. The Conservatives have support from a minority of people in the public, so it is probably the rest of the parties who are going to have to get together and have some common sense and reach an agreement that will be acceptable to majority of people in Scotland.

P

When we're having these debates, it's good to remember a that. We look back to the past and Saturdays Harold I was reading a book review on a book called bread for all the origins of the welfare state by Chris. Rennick I have to have not read the book, just the review.

P

The review reminded us of beverage arguing for a welfare state in 1943 and how the top rate of income tax reached 90 percent after the war and was still 83 percent in the 98 I normally fell to 40% under Margaret Thatcher now, I do not think even our most left-wing colleagues are advocating either 83 or 90 percent top rate tax, but it does show the UK in the past has been prepared to be radical for good public services, but there is at least one big difference between UK rates in the past and Scotland.

P

Today we have to be more concerned about behavior change and what might happen with taxpayers at the top end? Leaving Scotland are engaging in evasion or avoidance, for example, through incorporation. They are pay and paying themselves through dividends, and the reality is that we do not know how taxpayers will react to change.

P

Some people will be prepared to pay higher taxes in order to help the community have better education, health, universal benefits, more investment in infrastructure, but we accept there are others who would seek to arrange their tax affairs to in order to pay less tax very quickly as I.

K

Said in my opening remarks, I'm aware of some what the Scottish Government has done, suggesting that there is some evidence that this might happen at the additional rate. Is the member saying there is any evidence at all that it would happen at the higher rate.

P

Spell and the Finance Committee in the previous Parliament said that he reckoned that one or two pence difference would not lead to behavior change, and so my advice or my suggestion would be that we consider a small steps and notice that the member said 4243 and I think that's the kind of a area we should start with and day 41 42 43 and then see what happens and I just like to mention Switzerland a where I understand the can turns have different levels of income tax, varying roughly from 17% to 30%, with federal tax.

P

On top of that, and that suggests that even a small country like Switzerland can cope with quite wide variances in income tax between geographical areas, which are not really that far apart now I do accept. They have more control over taxes like capital gains tax and gift tax, which a Kate Forbes mentioned it. So we have get slightly different challenges. So in conclusion the government has said it is listening and I have no reason to think that is not the case.

P

Last year, the Greens obtained a relatively small concession in purely monetary terms, but perhaps it was more significant in Scotland for the first time having a different income tax regime from the rest of the UK I would love to rewrite the whole system from scratch that will not be happening this year, and hopefully, what we can do is have a discussion and negotiate and get a solution which will be acceptable to this Parliament, because I believe that is what the Scottish public want. Thank you thank.

J

You very much Nicole Neil Findlay to be followed by Julian Martin. Mr. Finley.

G

Taxation as the police, we pay for a civilized society in the collection, collective payment attacks he's to fund the public provision of services, one that labourers total a competitiveness as the system that allows us to provide universal health care, universal education, roads and Streatley in fresh water and sanitation. It should allow us to provide good care for the elderly and dignity for those who needed help due to illness or disability, and therefore makes me very angry.

G

Indeed, when we see the debate over taxation reduced to the cynical banality of phrases like tax grab, tax rate or tax bombshell, let's place the lowest common denominator, which seeks to make political capital but I promoting self-interest over the common good. The post-war era saw rates of wartime taxation, maintained and peacetime to rebuild the country and in a sudden is we saw genuine and radical redistribution from the rich to the poor. But of course, what every action comes, a reaction and it was then we saw the emerging dogma of neoliberalism, road-tested and penises.

G

Celli then enthusiastically endorsed and implemented by Thatcher and Reagan apologized dogma that goes against everything. I've ever believed them, and if we look at some of the major events over the last few decades, you can see its global influence all over it. The global banking crisis, the scandal of the Panama papers rise in child poverty. There are a ton of diseases like rackets, the austerity driving cuts, the services and even the rise and one an isolation as an idea. What ideology that demands?

G

A small state that sees citizens, become consumers where services are bought or sold or bed for, and a competition where privatization or outsourcing, as it's now been read: Tom's services and a tradable commodity. If your cuts are called no efficiencies or saving, and it sees if you don't have a job, it's your own fault, not the fault of a broken system, someone's rich because of the hard whatnot the advantages they have in their life and being per well. That's your fault as well.

G

Tax cuts for the rich benefit cuts for the poor deregulation, levelized, free markets, the law used against trade unions and, of course, all of us driven and reinforced by institutions like the IMF, the WTO and the EU, and this brings us to the nub of the taxation issue because, f, you see taxation as a burden and rises and it not as a method of paying for good things like education, health, social care and safe and a safe and cohesive society. You buy end to that neoliberal main say-so of health payment again the government demanding power.

G

But it's what you do once you have those powers that is important. So what was the Scottish Government's big ideas for Scotland's new tax powers changes to redistribute wealth from the many to the few, not at all a bell to cut if they taxes on air travel to benefit the wealthiest most on what level is that of progressive and redistribute of policy? I'm happy to give away to the cabinet sector and tell us how that is progressive? I, don't see him moving, I!

G

Think that tells you all necklace studied said: increased in taxes from 45 to 50 P would be daft and rare quest there. Let my guys see that to be too easy for Scots to move their wealth around, and we were told by a series of cabinet ministers that Labor's tax plan plans meant people were paying for Tory austerity twice I'm, never happier than when attacking the Tory party.

G

Now let me tell you what is definitely paying for austerity twice it's when tens of thousands of council, College, police and fire jobs have been cut justice when ease cuts that that and local government, where it tames even greater than the audience Osbourne. There knows what culture worst of jobs, finding that the various services that supported them in our community have gone to that's paying twice for Tory and SNP austerity, so I reject outright the neoliberal notion that the government has that that the government has endorsed that paying tax as a bad thing.

G

I think public services are a good thing, I believe an essential. They are the essential civilizing services that create a good, Society and I would remain the cabinet. Secretary of a timeless phrase, and each according to their ability to each according to them needs not as the approach we should have on Taxation remember there, a cabinet secretary needs to do about our reading. Thank.

J

You I called Gillian Martin, followed by Tom Mason, miss Martin.

I

J

I

Am hopeful that our discussions and tax policy for Scott would be constructive and an escort, open, poot was and I think that was during murder, phase of speech, but anyway, I'll carry on regardless and I thought everyone taking part in discussions will just have Scotland's economy, the health and prosperity of all Scotland's people and equality and fairness says her. That's gonna be my personal barometer as this discussions. It goes on and we should all be looking to her. We can make her system fair and insured.

I

Whatever changes we make to the current system enhances the Scottish economy and it shows that more money is made available to public services, because people won't look kindly on any of us who, in this chamber, stand up demanding that the government give more money to public services in the one hand, but, on the other hand, demand cuts for the richest in their society. That said, the Scottish public were also not lit.

I

Candle in any of us did not address the issue that I'm personally a little bit worthy of, and that issue is the potential for tax avoidance and the fiscal session went. This government's been given is rapists, danger of tax avoidance been enabled we get. The tax makes wrong and we may find ourselves in a situation where those were able to pay more find loopholes, glaringly obvious loopholes and the changes, the behavior and status, in order that the tax should be raised in Scotland.

I

It goes to our public services, ends up when elsewhere or ends up not raising any significant revenue as it stands are already many individuals legally avoiding paying income tax by incorporating themselves and by paying themselves dividends instead of a salary from which income tax can be taken and I. Don't think discussion really here and the model rates and wrong in that is helpful, because it's not illegal and people are going to do it. One one solution would be for corporation tax to be devolved, as was planned for in the devolve government of Northern Ireland.

I

Before the current political stalemate and the fact evolved, nation can get corporation taxpayers. Why can't we I've only got five minutes, so I'm not gonna. Take any interventions. Next is the issue of our labor market strategy and how I'm messin fiscal powers effect that we do not have significant levers to improve our labor mark.

I

We do have significant levers to improve our labor market, so that should mean that we can create more than come for public services as a result of that increased economic activity, increased wages could also mean our high streets and businesses are stimulated, as more people have money to spend, which is great, but that increase in spending without control over V T means that the extra PT raised by the economic stimulus doesn't necessarily come back to the Scottish Government put that labor market strategy in place so we'll lose out there and we can't control the rate of that which might make buying Scottish more attractive to consumers or more attractive to international trade.

I

We also can't do anything about anything about national insurance as it Stover's there. So we stimulate the labor market getting more people into work, so Scottish government policies, but we gain nothing for their efforts through that particular tax. I'll. Give you my favourite example that illustrates some of the points that I've made and one it's very current. So the Scottish government spends money and increasing free childcare. Jackie Bailey mentioned about what that may cost, but the economic effects of this policy are potentially numerous and some of them are immediate.

I

Both parents can access the labour market without financial penalty, so they have more family income. They can afford to spend more increasing consumer spending and Scottish businesses and one economically inactive payment becomes an income tax payer, or is they will to increase working errors? So the government gets more revenue and more than pays for the cost of the feed childcare policy. In fact, the revenue generated allows the government to afford new labor markets that stimulus measures.

I

Two weeks ago, I spoke to the with the convener of the labor market committee of the Swedish parliament, and we talked about these many arguments and he said to me, your tax situation must be very frustrating and it is I can't for the life of me understand why only three parties in this Parliament in the semester, Commission negotiations asked weakened control of national insurance, VAT and calculation types. Without these we make her finance a labor market, and economic strategies are really tricky and frustrating maze which, when change, can have unintended effects.

I

We've got four years without an election touchwood. Let's do the public a favor and stop trying to grab cheap headlines with a talk of people coming coming after their clip or pay packet. Let's talk about making our tax system work and if, at the end of the debate in weeks late, we really ought to have control over calculation tax, VAT, national insurance, whatever else West be united in asking for it for the good of the Scottish economy, and then we can all play with a full deck of cards.

J

Thank you. A culture may seem to revolve by Tom Arthur mr. Mason, please.

J

Mr. Mason's microphone assure Cardin, that's it thank.

Q

You thank you all. Thank you for siding officer, I'm, pleased to speak in favor of the amendment proposed by my colleague, murdered Fraser I. Do in mind, however, the colleagues don't still in Aberdeen City Councilor. The motion presented by the Labor Party is an interesting one. The issues of personal taxation is one of real concern for those we represent.

Q

Unfortunately, there is one clear and simple conclusion that to endure on from the motion, the Labour Party fundamentally believes in increasing the taxes of some of the lowest earning families in Scotland.

Q

They have all too quickly embraced the error that their party and others have made in the past see income from taxation as an inexhaustible, inexhaustible supply of free money. They forget or choose to ignore the real impact of their proposals in our area. As we see hard-working families in difficult circumstances, we see instances where prices rise faster than wages. Scots already have 800 pounds less to spend compared with the rest of the UK Labour Party's answers this look these families, families in the eye and raise their taxes to take from those that need it.

Q

The most is an application of their responsibilities, bizarrely officer, they must also address the implication. The notion that spending on public services is insufficient. We know thanks to research published this week, but first the Calico of Oxford University, and this is incorrect. We know that Scots benefit from public spending, that is around 1,400 pounds higher than per head than in England. We know it even accounting for higher delivery cost in some areas. Spending is not providing a service that meets expectations.

Q

Scotland is already the highest tax area in the UK. Instead of further taxes, we should be focused on how to spend what we have in a more competent manner on NHS could have be seen an extra billion pounds in funding if Scottish government they kept pace with overall devolved spending. The SNP bangs on the banks that rung for whatever progressive policy is popular in any given week, and it collects to use the levers at its disposal to make a difference to people in their lives.

Q

That is why we need real reform in the way we our public services work to put delivery ahead of process and to spend in a responsible manner providing officers soon. Our new fiscal arrangements will cede more than 50% of the money we spend raising Scotland. This requires us to approach public spending and taxation in the more color-coordinated and sustainable fashion. Students of economics among us will be mindful the optimum tax policies.

Q

Maybe you heard the Laffer curve Nevin as academic example shows us that the tangible way in which an effective and generally high tax regime could depression economy, reduce the tax. Take the land and business transaction takes is the example. Is a system we've had a total of reduction in income by setting our rates too high, we discourage some of our work but place who conclude that they are better off without working or deciding to go elsewhere. In addition, in addition, businesses will choose to relocate.

Q

This is the worst possible result for Scotland towards of our national deficit percentage, all over 8% being almost four times that of the United Kingdom should be. This should be extremely concerning to all colleagues. This does not include the sustainable Ethernet does not indicate sustainable economic policy, whether notional or tangible. The deficit has a very real effect on our ability to deliver public services, so we must not ignore it. With our present fiscal responsibilities, debt burden is carried by the UK government.

Q

Sure did that catch up with us and I think it probably will I for one do not want to leave my children and my children's children with an unsustainable debt burden.

Q

If we as the Parliament focus our energy delivering public services, an efficient and responsible manner, mana and increased jobs and raise wages will create opportunities to grow our tax base without taking from those that need it. The most presiding officer, the Scottish Conservatives, and will continue to advocate real reform in how we deliver public services and grow our economy in a way that benefits our constituents. We will continue to stand up for workers and businesses across Scotland and pleased to support murder Fraser's amendment today. Thank you.

Q

R

Arthur followed by angry Thank.

S

You presiding officer, faithful to opportunity and I apologizing for my voice goes I have stoked over quite a heavy quote, but I think it's probably appropriate and a conversation about taxes, I sound, like death might have taught me a bit. I put the political context. I want to welcome the tenor of the offer made by the Catholic circuit to engage with all the political parties.

S

Colleague key fobs also spoke about being collaborative and I. Think the Joey Martin made a very important point early at all, and about as much as it engendered am laughter than response. I need to get our in strange positions and work together collaboratively as I as the cabinet circular said. As a parliament of minorities, there will be a need to compromise. There will be a need for responsibility. I've just begun a favorite. Please. Let me continue to develop my point. The robe you need to compromise.

S

There will be a need for responsibility both with the government and the opposition and it equally. It's also important not to prejudice that process. As just a beginning and I welcome the cabinet Secretary's reiteration that the discussion paper will be published ahead of the budget. I think what latest religious sort of service I think you have to take license of the economic context they were operating within we've seen: inflation, CPI inflation and UT up to 2.9 percent a joint at highest in the last five years. That's ahead of wage growth and I.

S

Think that's important, because when we're talking about behavioral impacts, it's not about just tax relocations. Potentially it's about consumer spending and the knock on effect, and that has to I. Also just wanted was a point. I want to pick up, but actually, though, bull in his nineties police reason, it was the issue of a constitutional once they often tea and for once I'm I'm going to agree with him, because I think anyone who's read.

S

For example, today the agent summary of a decision maker panel from Bank of England on the growth of a number of businesses, where the issue of brakes is amongst the top two concerns the the FS beauty, poor or the small business confidence falling and particularly a freezer of another Institute scene.

S

The immediate concern is that the exit negotiations themselves go awry and Daglish if it is closed on the immediate horizon remains the drakes at negotiations, and this is something actually aligns squarely at the feet of the Conservative Party. This makes it that they challenged environment to talk about it tight because of the economic environment and your honesty, often tea that we're facing- and this is something obviously that's been compounded with the foreign secretaries approach, who is apparently threatening to resign. Well, he says and a quote that the cabinet is a nest of singing Bob's.

S

Well, he seems to be the cuckoo and the nest and I think it. If we take on Isis that, then we can move forward in a way that's considered and consider proposals based upon some fundamental principles and I. Think a few points have been made as a need to consider tax and spending, not cancer, I'm James.

H

Kelly thank Tom Arthur fourteen the intervention in terms of fundamental principles. Do you set a principle of increasing income tax in order to support career investment in public services, Tom.

S

Arthur, oh, come mm Escalade, but amendment specifically because it says that income tax should be increased to locally, to invest many public services. That amendment and itself begs the question because it does because I asked whether or not there's I can appreciate FEMA factually it would seem, is simply putting up income. Taxes is going to lead to greater revenue, but that is not the case, but we know that, with the additional rate and again any implications of adjusting any of your honor rates can be reflected upon consumer spending.

S

No I am NOT prejudicing at that process, but there has to be a rational, COO, level-headed conversation. It has to be detached and ideology Nahas to be considered in the context of public spending. Could.

R

We stop the shouting from the side lanes please. Mr.

S

Pincus I think it's a I think it's is that the principles would have to work. I can appreciate the believer parties, artists, it's an easy ask for more possession lists, but all over the bands of tax, oh, but there is consequences to that business, behavioral consequences and, in the case of additional rate, taxpayers potential behavioral impacts. I'm.

S

Sorry, when my last 20 seconds knows no time in mind, there's a chorus to the dangers of taxpayers, relocating their bodies and, as my colleagues have made, not having power over dividends, Dauphin /, /, corporation types, the best acute leads to a net loss in revenue, there's much more late to vote to discuss poor unfortunate presiding officer tame it against me.

R

Have engraved followed by John McAlpin Thank.

T

You presiding officer, three years ago, I gave ten weeks of my life to the metaphorically smoke-filled room. That was this Math Commission and we agreed significant tax payers for this Parliament three years old, Patrick Harvey is right. It is past time that we had a government with the gumption to use those powers for the benefit of this country and that we do not is self-evidently true.

T

The SNP have voted down amendments to use the taxpayers of the Parliament to end austerity in the last two budgets and they have voted against increasing tax and those who are in the most no fewer than eight times since 2015, and this they've made common cause with and depended on, the support of the Tories, of course, and when it comes to tax, we know what the Tory stand for.

T

They will always prioritize tax cuts for the better off over investment and services for the betterment of all and contrast, the SMP love to talk tough on UK taxes, whether it's a noise ease off from the green benches of Westminster in this chamber today and the cabinet secretaries opening remarks, or indeed in their motion in the business bulletin.

T

But when it comes to actually doing something progressive with Scottish taxation there they are rabbits in the headlights of a hard decision, look at their most dynamic eye and their motion boldly demands that we all supply him with their tax plans. So he can staple together into a discussion document what a weapon he is 14 against inequity and inequality. What a warrior for justice he will be with his consultation on a constructive discussion paper for a framework for tax and a divorce :. The truth is, we know everybody's policy on tax here, except his mr.

T

Riley said Ayers eight in detail, but the only tax policy Mr McKay has is to cut the air passenger GT and hunt tumor 200 million pounds over to Airlines and to airport operators. The truth is Mr. Mckay, there is no consensus here on times you can support the Tories on tax cuts and austerity, or you can support the rest of us on progressive taxation.

T

The questioners who say there you own, but of course it's not really looking for consensus, is he he's looking for a cop-out he's not really seeking common ground on which to stand, but rather a place to hide and that timidity in action and donate hypocrisy on tax has had consequences under the protection of this SNP government. The income of Scott's earning over a hundred and fifty thousand pounds a sword by sixty eight percent and the number of Scottish taxpayers in that category has almost doubled.

T

Well, 40,000, more Scottish children find themselves living in poverty last year alone, or look at the public service. This government claims as its priority education. They have spent. Surely.

R

Dead, it okay, as.

E

The ingre has mentioned he was involved in the talks in terms of new powers coming to Scotland. What waiting should we attach the Block Grant adjustment when arriving our final tax possession can ask must agree. Angry.

T

And yeah again another place to hide from the hard decisions of government all too complicated for the rest of us to understand. Mr. McCanless is said to be about the principle and the principle is: are you prepared to use progressive taxation to fund public services are or are you not and it's clear that you're? Not because if we look our schools, we spend 491 pounds less per head per pupil in real terms than in 2007. 10 years ago our teachers were amongst the best paid in the developed world.

T

Now they are paid less and what's harder than their counterparts almost anywhere else. The minister's consulted on school reforms, parents, teachers, educationalists, counselors, SMP councils, queued up to say the same thing. The problem our schools have is a lack of capacity. The problem is the cuts, arcologies told the Audit Committee last week. Their finances are not sustainable and in universities, two Scottish government funding for teaching has been cut by seven and a half percent since 2014.

T

Of course, ministers protest, they're spending millions on the pupil equity fund to cut the attainment gap, but they have slashed millions more from the core council budgets which support our schools.

T

That's why our proposal for fair start funding was directly linked to that 50p tax rate asking the richest to pay a little more to invest in helping those who need it most: real additional investment, not robbing Peter to pay Paul and then looking for a park composed piece, and this is tax and invest because the only way to face the challenges this country faces is to invest in the skills and education of our next generation and the only way to do.

R

That is to have the.

T

Guts to use those tax payers and use them now.

R

I call Jordan McAlpin's, we followed by Alison Addison Thank.

U

You presiding officer, Alec growling knows that I respect him as our politician of integrity and no friend of the Tories by his life thing the Tories off the hook. If he tries to pin this Parliament down to plugging the black call of austerity in advance of the budget in November.

U

Despite the changes made in the Scotland bill, a substantial portion of Scotland income comes back to us, and the shape of a Block Grant and progressive parties in this chamber should all be working as hard as we can to pressure on the Chancellor to abandon austerity and give us the settlement we require in that budget to fund our public services. Just because we work together. Excuse.

R

Me mr. McAlpin miss lemon. Could you please stop shouting from a left hand side, it's distracting for the speaker for me and for those who are trying to listen, Thank.

U

You Stefan. Thank you. We worked together on the fiscal framework when the Tories tried to slash Scotland's budget by six billion pounds so hope we can work together to pressure on them and the forthcoming budget in November and Isis already being said.

U

The Scottish Government's figures show real time cut of nine point: two percent between 2010 and 2020 under the Tories, and looking forward the phrase that a volunteer Institute last year predicted a cut of 1.6 billion between now and 2021, a real terms, cut off 6% and that's why we're having this to be today and the reason why the first minister has invited all parties to contribute their ideas to this discussion paper on tax, and there have been a number of constructive their contributions today, particularly by a Patrick Harvie, and who could put forward them a number of their elements of the green party's manifesto.

U

And, of course, these ideas like these will need to be modeled so that we can see how much revenue they are likely to raise and the effect on behavior. As this discussion pans out, we must not lose sight of the fact that these decisions- how and this discussion has been forced on us- indeed there's a significant body of opinion.

U

No thank you air, which believes that this was always the Tories intention to cut those Parliament's budget in order to force us there into reasoning, income tax which they will then condemn a trap, in other words, back in 2015, David Cameron. The prime minister at the time, was completely transparent about his intentions.

U

When he spoke to the House of Commons I, both the income taxpayers and the Scotland bill, he said and I quote, I am I won the SNP, headon and hollered to start making decisions which taxes are you going to raise and what you're going to do with benefits. So, though, the Tories here repeatedly bleats a glare against proposed tax rises, one can't help but suspect that it's all part of the grand design to undermine confidence in this Parliament and deed and evolution itself.

U

No thank you and to cut Hollywood's budget and because that's what happens when you limit the amount of taxes they raised air to a very small number of taxes which of which income tax is the most substantial. It means that the the finance secretary has there has very little power at a manoeuvre and there I would remain members of some of the contributions in committee of eminent economists such as Andrew who's.

U

No thank you, Andrew Hughes Howard, who said that you really need a basket of taxes in order to be able to manage the economy with maximum efficiency and which is something that Professor Gallacher, who was quoted. Ere we are, and who was the secretary to the cowman Commission, as I recall, I said, has set: has them himself against and was always very much opposed to and make no mistake, presiding officer?

U

What we're doing here is looking at preserving better public services in Scotland and the better outcomes that we have experienced in Scotland's, because we've made different choices here. Nhs spending in Scotland is higher per head than England 1, 4 7 or compared to 1 2 6 6 staffing. In the NHS and Scotland under there send people of 12,000, more staff and again more per head 25.9% population in Scotland, compared to 19 for a thousand population in England and, of course, an England students.

U

There's Trish and piece of 9,000 plus a year and their educational means in science. For low-income pupils in England has been abolished, whereas in Scotland it has been retained and expanded and police england has seen 19 thousand police officers cut and in Scotland we have of course appointed a thousand more officers.

U

I could go on and talk about the no compulsory redundancies policy which this SNP government put in place at an early stage and, of course, the four hundred million pounds were spent, mitigating a welfare cuts and introducing aspects of the social wage like free prescriptions, now's, my Scotland as a country worth loving in and a Scotland the peace fairness. First. If we want to preserve these advances, we need to have.

R

A close I mean each.

U

Model different tax ideas to see how much revenue they raise from behaviour taken into account. In conclusion, the Tories are saying today that they want a quick plantation.

R

U

Westminster counterparts on both tax and costs, but we won't be doing that and that's why I welcome the discussion. The.

R

Last of the open debates sweet chooses, Alison house, deputy.

V

Presiding officer, the Labour Party, by coming to the chamber today and telling us that they want to increase the tax burden and two and a half million hard-working Scots and their families have clearly set out their stole a return to high tax and high spending that has clearly been rejected by the Scottish voters, from John Swinney 1999 proposal to increase income tax by one pence, which voters roundly rejected to labor promising tax rises in the 2016 Scottish manifesto proposals, which contribute to their worst Hollywood result. However, by 2016, even mr.

V

Sweeney was highlighting what we on this side of the chamber knew already referring to the Labour proposal. He said this is a tax change that would have a detrimental effect on the incomes of low income households, whilst these are words from the debutantes I am good to meet some clueless, whilst these are words from the Deputy stirrer which which with which we can wholeheartedly agree.

V

We are concerned in this chamber only a few short weeks ago, the First Minister refused to affirm her party's manifesto commitment to freezing the basic rate of tax. It seems that we may well be seeing the start of yet another competition amongst other parties in this chamber to take more and more types from the pockets of Scottish workers. I am proud that this is a race that the Scottish Conservatives will not be entering. Instead, we shall continue to stand on the side of Scottish families and Scottish business.

V

The SNP and the Greens have already made Scotland the highest tax part of the UK and on the highest tax part.

R

Right: okay, daddy, okay, so.

E

Does the member Alison Harris say that Fraser a volunteer Institute got it wrong when on the 10th of April 2017, they confirmed that Scotland wasn't the highest tax part of Yukie? If you look at all taxis in the road Alison.

R

Harris today.

V

We're actually talking about income tax and quit income tax is concerned. We actually are the hired part, the highest tax part of the UK, so the SNP and the Greens have already we are. We actually are the SNP and the Greens have already made Scotland the highest Heights part of the UK and for any further attempt to meet Scott Speed more than people in the rest of the country is still as unpopular as ever. The concern over higher taxes goes well beyond individuals. The Scottish chambers of commerce have said that.

R

Mr. Arthur, would you stop muttering from your seat? Please carry on miss Harrison. Thank.

V

You the concern over higher taxes, goes well beyond individuals. The Scottish chambers of commerce have said that higher taxes north of the border, which set a dangerous precedent and that growing our economy, rather than increasing taxes, will provide the most sustainable route towards boosting tax revenues, and thus public spending less money in people's pockets clearly will come at a place in terms of jobs and growth.

V

The Institute's of Directors has said that raising income tax would send the wrong message and David longsdale director of the Scottish retail consortium, has said that the Scottish government should keep income tax rates down, boosting customer car evidence and keeping consumer spending buoyant to support the economy as well as government spending deputy presiding officer, as well as supporting the need for working families to keep more of their own money.

V

I wish to turn now to see more about Scotland's small business sector, almost 70% of the country's 350,000 private sector, businesses are unincorporated and Ping personal taxes. Many of these people work long and hard to develop their businesses. Many of these small enterprises that and sectors ranging from agriculture to tourism and they're struggling the last thing small business wants to see is the added burden of an increase in personal taxes. What a disincentive to work the long hours to provide both the service and to create the wealth that generally, is part of that employment.

V

One of my constituents put it I can understand the need to tax things that are bad for you, such as alcohol and cigarettes. But why do some politicians want to constantly increase the tax on work in the small business survey carried out on behalf of the Scottish Government earlier this year? It is interesting that the top three obstacles given by the SMEs to the success of a business where competition in the market, red tape and regulations and then Taxation growing the economy, is key to our economic success and keeping taxes.

V

Low is a major component in achieving growth. I am delighted that, with this amendment, no have no time. No I'm. Sorry delighted that, with this amendment, the Scottish Conservatives are yet again signalling that we are on the side of those who will be hit by the tax proposals put forward by other parties. The Scottish Conservatives are with or struggling to grow a business. We will never see sending out the message that increased taxes, disincentivizes work and therefore growth, and this can be seen with lb TT.

V

This is an example which showed us that increased taxes can actually reduce anticipated tax. Teak I am delighted to support the conservative amendment this afternoon.

R

We now move on to the closing speech is disappointing to note that not everyone who contributed is back in their seats and I call on Willie Rainey for up to six minutes. Please.

F

Thank You, deputy presiding officer and I was intrigued by what Dennett and Akai said it wasn't his opening speech, which was okay. It was the intervention to Ian gray where he talked about the Block Grant adjustment and whether our tax proposal should reflect the consequences of the Block Grant adjustment. So he clearly reached some kind of conclusion on some kind of placement.

F

Well, if it comes to, if it comes to conspiracies Albany a lesson to us, jordan McAlpine, who believes that all the unionist parties I've set up this Parliament, so we can do down Scotland, that's exactly why we've done it so I won't take anything about conspiracy theories, but it was that interesting, and this is a very serious point, because I think he should I think he should have a berate and- and it's coming up because he's obviously reached some kind of conclusion. Well, I'll take an intervention if you can no robbery. No, that was okay.

E

I supposed to assess Willie, rainy and other members of the chamber, the fiscal framework has a Block Grant adjustment, which does actually really read to how much tax we actually accrued to Scotland is relative to the tax decisions in the United Kingdom, so I happen to think it's important. The members understand ah when he said the tax possessions well,.

F

He rainy well, that's that's great, because that's more than we got in Derek McKay's opening remarks. Oh this was a generality about about partnership. So, yes, I think it should be it's important for Derek Mackay to try and say some of the substance on this because obviously got the support of always a fish was behind them to help him work his way through the fiscal framework. So, let's see what kind of conclusions he has obviously reached already or otherwise he would have made that intervention Ian Greece, so I'm intrigued by that.

F

Just that little remark at one point and the fact that they're in the guys protesting so much probably proves the point that I have actually hit on the mark, and this is actually a healthy debate and we've often four many many years in this Parliament we debated how to spend the extra money or the less money that we had from Westminster. But now we've got the responsibility to also consider the impact on taxpayers and I. Think that's made, there's a much more rounded Parliament one!

F

That's considering the impact on on people spending as well as government spending too. So I think it's actually improved the nature of the debate in this chamber.

F

Although I don't think it was assisted by Thomas Mason who talked about the level of debt, because we're not talking about increasing borrowing here, we're talking about potentially increasing taxation living within our means, but actually the increase in taxation in order to be able to spend on public services or didn't quite understand why he was bringing that remark into it, and neither that I really appreciate that about some bill.

F

Moving I thought bill Bowman describing tax as pickpocketing I, don't regard saving people's lives in hospitals as pickpocketing I, don't regard educating children in our schools as pickpocketing I, actually think taxation can be a force for good to change people's lives and to describe it in that emotive way. I do not think helps the debate in this chamber and.

F

He also described us as part of the left-wing consensus. I, don't remember him describing us as that when we were in this coalition with them before. But let's forget that fact to him. I was there. I was interested in Jordan Mason about so thought. It was a good contribution about more radical proposals, I'd like to see exactly what he means in terms of the the detail of that I. Think Tom Arthur talked about both sides of the balance sheet being considered, which is a point I've just referred to as well and Ian gray.

F

I thought made a great contribution talking about the the time that he spent in the Smith Commission, because since 2007 the SNP government were able to some degree to complain about him other decisions by UK governments and the impact on public spending in Scotland, with the inability to have the flexibility to do something else. But Smith gave that flexibility. There's given that flexibility since 2015 16, so we've the ability to do things differently and what's disappointing. Is that the first? Not just no?

F

The first decision that we made this plan was to do exactly the same as we've done before the respect of the powers that we've now got and I think that is regrettable, but to be on the upside I. Think it's positive that Dennett Makai is now embracing the potential the potential only for something different and for Scotland, so I think it's an opportunity now to look forward in.

F

Therefore, I was disappointed that keep Forbes and Julian Martin did hark back to that all debate that I thought we had put behind us for a little while at least about the argument about what powers we should have in this place, rather than using the powers that we've actually got just now and in the particular argument around a bit corporate cooperation tax was interesting because both took opposing positions on that one thing: we could never cut it, the other one saying we possibly could and both him to be in contradiction to Alec salmon.

F

If you just want to slash it right down to Irish levels. So we have a multitude of different positions on that, but the interesting, but not just now. The interesting point was under personal elements. They keep farms in particular, and what, if the personal elements to come to Scotland now, we've got the ability here to create a zero band to raise the personal allowance higher than the threshold that it is just now. So the only purpose for one control of the personal elements would be to lure it to take it down.

F

There's no time finish known to Aluva, where to cut to actually to increase tax, to increase tax on the lowest n or something that I worked really hard to change, to take people out of tax altogether. So I thought it was astonishing astonishing that that was one of the proposals that they would want to bring back to this Parliament.

F

Could it because it could only mean higher taxes for the poor and one one final point: there is a rumor going around that the government is going to abstain on the labour motion today, they're going to abstain. That would be. You must close.

R

Please we need.

F

Some clarity on exactly what the government is proposing it to do today, because what they should do is embrace embrace the opportunity to do.

R

To intervention please.

F

Our Parliament, thank you very much.

R

I know call Patrick Harvie up to six minutes. Please.

K

Thank you very much deputy presiding officer. We have managed to avoid reaching the level of a stair he'd Ramy. We haven't quite been that bad, but I I suspect that over the coming months, if the government is remotely serious about having a discussion about shifting its own possession, I suspect it will be those who positively set out a constructive case for change rather than just those who insult their opponents track record. Who might see some progress made.

K

I was I was pleased that welly Rainey, who I would never flatter by calling part of the left-wing consensus. I was pleased that he was so grateful for the reminder of green policy in my opening possession and I'm sure that anyone who had a note of sarcasm in his voice must have been mistaken, given that he went on to criticize the lack of detail from other parties. But given that he's not a fan of interventions, I've still not had the opportunity to find out from the Liberal Democrats.

K

So if they are open to the idea of splitting the basic rate so that we don't have to increase taxes on lower than average earners and there, the idea of a zero rate simply will be one more way of spreading that tax cut to everybody right up to the additional rate threshold. That's not a socially just way of reducing the tax burden and I'm surprised as well a little bit about the Conservatives, because it seems to me that there ought to be some kind of point of common ground from the Conservatives.

K

Looking at the green proposals on taxation, because they are the only proposals that have been advanced so far, that would cut the tax bill for the majority of households in Scotland, taking our income tax, our local council tax and our ndr proposals in the round. We would be cutting the tax burden not on the wealthiest, as the UK government have, but on the lowest income part of our society and the majority of households would be paying less tax.

K

The conservative position at the moment seems to be based on magical thinking, cut every tax, going, cut, ADT, cut and camp tax, cut taxes on business and still keep spending more across-the-board. If there's anybody who believes in the magic money tree, it's the Conservative Party and the model Fraser I think came to toward the end of his speech, saying that we're in essentially in the same position as we were in 2007.

K

Well, whatever point he was trying to make about the public finances, people are not in the same position that were they were in in 2007, a huge number of people have seen no real terms, value of their wages, go down and down and down in the public sector and the private sector, and the impact of taxation on them is deeply regressive.

K

If we look at the combination of income, tax and indirect taxation, it's the purest fifth of our population, who are paying the highest tax burden, the highest share of their income in overall taxation at 38 percent higher than any other section of the population. So we have a deeply regressive approach to tax.

K

At the moment, there is one point of common ground that I had with the Conservatives, in that there isn't yet clarity from the SNP on their possession and I I agree with that that point I don't expect a fully developed proposition from the SNP at this point in what is supposed to be an open discussion. After all, I do want opposition parties to have the chance to push them beyond their comfort zone in the right direction. Digging heals, then, is not the right way to start, but I do think.

K

The SNP should have begun this discussion by setting out some clear principles, one that increase demands on public services require increased overall revenue and two that this must be done in a way that reduces inequality in our society. And if we, if we began the conversation with agreement, at least across most of the political parties on those key principles, then I think we would have a much stronger basis for moving forward and as far as the Greens are concerned, this must mean restoring the lost value in public sector pay and I.

K

Note that unisons view published last week is that a five percent increase our inflation is justified to a above inflation increase of public sector workers to begin to restore some of the lost real terms value. If we had these two key principles at the start of this conversation, and if the SNP even today is able to agree to those two principles, I would welcome it. It would.

K

It would never lead us, for example, to Jillian Martin's demands for the freedom to cut cooperation tax even more deeply than the UK has done at a time when many corporates are still using tax havens or other tax dodges. Yes, indeed,.

I

Jillian Martin mr. Harvey was all due respect. I, never ever said innocent I wouldn't cut everyone up says what I was merely saying is that we had the powers for all these types. We will be able to have a full deck of cards with which to play. Patrick.

R

Harvie, the.

K

Snp, possession in the past has been to devolve cooperation tax in order to cut it and that absolutely needs to be rejected. I would agree. I would agree to this extent, with with Jillian Martin and with Kate Forbes, that it would lead us to a discussion about the wider approach to taxation, not just on income tax, but key probs, framed that entirely as a complaint about the constraints that exist. What we need to do is recognize that we have always, since 1999, had unfettered power to levy taxes for local services.

K

Local taxation has been constrained only by the political paralysis in this Parliament. The unwillingness to move to reform and to replace both council tax and non-domestic rates with something fairer and more progressive. We will oppose the government's amendment, just as we will continue to oppose their regressive possession on ADT and, in the long run, will continue to argue for a shift for taxation away from income and towards the wealth inequalities that are even more grotesque in our society than income inequality, I.

R

Called Dean lockhardt up to six minutes, please Thank.

W

You, deputy presiding officer, it's been an interesting and at times even entertaining debate this afternoon on this side of the chamber, we've been watching the other parties clambering over each other to declare their height left-wing credentials from labor we've heard from the korbinites. They want to increase tax for everyone and from the SMP we've heard from the corbin light. We all know they want to increase tax, but they won't come off the fence and admit it. Unless was been remarkable about this debate, every party except the government, has explained their income tax policy.

W

Alex Riley made it clear. Labour wants to increase the income tax for everyone earning over eleven a half thousand pounds. That's a tax increase for over two and a half million people in Scotland and to raise the top rate 250 pens for the Greens and liberals, Patrick Harvie and Willie Rennie I will later Patrick Harvey Miller any confirmed that they're also part of the high tax bonanza. As for the SNP, instead of debating its income tax policy in the chamber, the Italian Mekhi tells us they want to have an informed discussion.

W

So there we have it. Just two weeks after they're simply published this program for government promising a bold and ambitious vision for a modern, dynamic economy. We discover from daily McKay that this government does not in fact have an income tax policy. We really shouldn't be surprised. The SNP has shown this level of confusion before on tax.

W

After all, is the party who wants to cut here departure ties because it will boost the economy and which has repeatedly warned against the increasing the top rate of tax, because the words of the first minister has bill Bowman highlighted it would be reckless, it will be daft to do so, but at the same time, this is also the party that has increased land and buildings transaction tax, causing a loss in revenues of over 800 million pounds and the same party that two weeks ago in the programme for government called for the innovators of the world to come to Scotland only now to tell them that they will be taxed more in Scotland than elsewhere in the UK presiding officer.

W

Our amendment to the Labour motion today reflects the fiscal reality that higher income tax in Scotland will not deliver more funding, and it will not deliver more investment for public services. I will later. Let me just explain the reasons why higher tax will not result in higher tax revenues under the fiscal framework agreed by the SNP. The level of public spending available Scotland going forward will be directly linked to the performance of the Scottish economy relative to the UK economy, and we found out today from the freezer of Allender that there is forecast.

W

The underperformance of the Scottish economy is forecast to underperform the rest of the UK for years to come. The same report also highlights that consumer confidence in Scotland remains negative and lower and lower. Just this point and lower than the rest of the UK and the earnings and disposable income in Scotland continue to fall, leading to negative x in the economy. High tax or higher tax will only make this situation worse. West Macbeth can.

R

I say it's up to the member whether or not they take an intervention and when they take an intervention, don't okay.

E

My apologies presiding, often appreciate Dean Lockhart taking the intervention. Can I ask Dean lockhardt if he agrees with the scotland office that the UK government is responsible for the Scottish economy, Dean.

W

Lockhardt there's a long answer that the UK economy is responsible for monetary policy, with record low interest rates and like record low mortgage rates under the UK government. However, the Scottish government is responsible for enterprise policy and growing that part of the economy and for the ten years under the SNP, the Scottish economy has underperformed the rest of the UK with the same parameters.

W

Supply Deb subside. Instead of listening to the failed left-wing consensus, as Alison Harris said, and whether any may might be part of that, we should listen to the experts. For example, the Scottish chambers of commerce has made it clear growing the Scottish economy, not squeezing the last drops out of workers, will generate more tax revenues. Another negative consequence of increasing tax will be behavioural change that we have heard in other debates.

W

It would only take 1000 top rate tax payers to transfer the tax base out of Scotland for there to be a decline in overall tax revenues. This was recognized by Kezia Dugdale when she said that raising the top rate of tax to 50% cut in her words raised liro because of the mechanisms by which people can avoid paying tax.

W

These concerns were raised in the economy committee yesterday, when we heard that tax payers additional rate, as well as high higher rate, could incorporate and take their income streams out of the Scottish tax system altogether, something that a higher rate compared to the rest and all have typed something that our higher rate in Scotland would encourage so presiding officer. As a number of members have said, tax policy doesn't operate in isolation. We agree.

W

It's therefore incumbent on all parties to recognize the reality that we are in tax competition with the rest of the UK, as well as the rest of the world, and for these reasons our amendment to the motion today makes our policy position clear. There is no case for raising income tax rates in Scotland above those payable elsewhere in the UK, and that to provide reassurance to the lowest-paid arise in the basic rate of income. Tax should be immediately ruled out.

W

On this basis, we look forward to hearing the finance secretary in his closing remarks, whether or not he is willing to confirm the pledge made in the SNP Hollywood manifesto last year, when it said they would freeze the basic rate of income tax throughout the next parliament to protect those on low and middle income. The hard-working people of Scotland deserve an answer. Thank you. I.

R

Call Derek Mackay absolutely no more than seven minutes. Please cabinet, secretary, okay,.

E

Thank you, presiding officer, I can hear Joanne lamont disappointed, there's only seven minutes that you'll get to hear from me for, but can I say, first of all, presiding officer over the course of last year's a budget where this government approved over 900 million pounds of extra expenditure on Scotland's public services. There was a cry from the other political parties to listen to them, on tax, to listen closely to their possession or in taxed and now there's an outcry, a united outcry from some of the opposition parties that I'm listening to them or in tax.

E

How dear the Scottish government enter into our well informed debate about tax in this country, but Willie Rainey actually asked I think very important questions about the context of that debate and that discussion paper and the reason if I can finish this point and the reason I think it's important to add. Confidence to the discussion paper is so that every political party can appreciate what I'm trying to do as fairly model their propositions. And incidentally, it will be the chief economist.

E

So it's up to you how much you trust the chief economic adviser of Scotland, to do those calculations to then inform that people on that debate, which will present all policies fairly and equally and I. Think that will be a very helpful intervention, because I heard one member on the team bus say.

E

Why are you bothering with all this modelling of propositions, because it's actually quite important, if you're about to make a tax proposition that you know in fairness, what it means in terms of the revenue that it would raise and also what impact that may have on our society. So it should be an evidence-based paper understanding the propositions P by the political parties in a fair way, I had kamati to take an intervention from Joanna morning, Johanna.

N

Lammott, thank you very much wonder if the cabinet says to confirm and seeing it's no willing to entered, interfere, debate and Taxation that the debate before that was not fair. They concluded with the idea that taxation was taking money from the purest when, in fact, we know the progressive taxation will benefit through public spending, creation of jobs, social and economic opportunity. We know apologize. The way in which he characterized taxation policy before and to enter. The city is to be a bit need for progressive taxes.

N

E

Problem for the Labour Party is that last year we had a serious to be on how to use pebbles, how to use them responsibly, how to invest in our public services and how to give in stability to a economy. And you know, tax powers are not a toy, say a plea, but you use them in such a way as to raise the revenue to spend on our public services, but also in a way that is concurrent with the King of Scotland that we seek and can support business growth.

E

A as well and I, made the point in last year's budget that we committed to and are delivering over, 900 million pounds worth of extra investment in this country and the teeth of opposition from the Labour Party and a Tory party. As it happens now, I listened carefully to what the Labour Party said and I would like to make more progress and very carefully to what the Labour Party said and outlining their tax possession, which, yes, that includes everything the basic gray completely unaware of the people that that would reach.

E

But I appreciate that the Labour Party is for what the possession we've been in office a for ten years. I thank Li about including that interim.

R

Secretary, can we have a bit of parliamentary respect, please from those who are continuing to shout from the seats cabinets extras.

E

Who I respect the possession of the Labour Party, but I am left wondering which Labour leader Ezzor I've, to go to to get the tax policies to model to be able to inform this debate now, I've tried to stress the importance of the Block Grant adjustment because it actually does matter the relationship between tax in the UK and tax in Scotland as well to ensure that we actually raise the revenue that required the Lib Dems of say, Oh, a possession. It may well be viewed as the tax-and-spend commitment.

E

It may well be used as ring-fencing for education, but I can assure the lab games. But if we encourage engage positively, then it will at least be a well informed to be in which we will have choices to make, and that is absolutely constructive. The possession No. Thank you. The possession from the Conservatives.

E

Of course, I wanted to intervene to expand the point to see as it stole the possession of the conserves to reduce tax for London Bolton transaction tax, higher value homes, as it's double the possession possession to reduce it for council tax as it stole the possession to reduce it for large business supplement as well sticking to a theme from the Tories. It will only protect the richest in society, which is exactly why I want the Tories proposition to fairly model what that actually means and have a feared to be in terms a not not right.

E

Now, I've got very little time left, because a number of members have fairly asked about the possession of the government, but I said in my opening remarks.

E

If the SNP simply produces simply produces our manifesto commitment and put it to the chamber, we well not when, because this is a parliament of minorities, and that is exactly the reason we should engage in a well informed, evidence-based debate or what powers we have and how they could be used in a reasonable and responsible way. I gave way to Patrick Harvie Patrick.

K

Harvey I'm grateful the the cabinet secretary earlier made an important point about the modeling. He expects to be done by his officials of the proposals that come from other parties can I confirm that that modeling will not only look at the revenue to be raised, but will also look at the impact on income inequality in our society and test each party's proposition, including his own proposition, against that as a principal objective, Derrick mcCane.

E

Final minute, yes, I, do believe. That's a fair contribution to add, well inform to be as to how we should use tax powers and I see again if we want to have a a well-informed to be. We have to understand the basics and that's why I'm so surprised that many members in the chamber didn't appreciate the importance of the Block Grant adjustment doesn't appreciate the importance of where we office in this country, and why other mr.

R

Mckay's exactly matter.

E

In that regard, now went to the tum to something that Alec Rowley actually said, which it was this. He accepted that this could be a well-informed, rational debate and we should engage in it and that's better. Of course. Many of the colleagues certainly behind them said why?

E

Why the need for tackling Westminster I need to return to this point that we still do have an opportunity before the UK government and UK Chancellor sets has budget to oppose the dodgy DUP you to oppose austerity to have a proper approach on public sector P, and we must not give up on that battle as we approach our own budget and arrow in tax decisions now continue to take decisions responsibly and reasonably and our offer there, the other parties that opportunity to engage in this.

E

So we can have a debate on income tax that we can be proud of. I.

R

Call James Kelly up to decision time, please mr. Kelly Thank.

H

You, deputy presiding officer I welcome the opportunity to close this afternoon's 2b, which has been a very important to be because I soloed that the parties to say. Oh, the parameters of the tax policies ahead of the publication of the draft budget, which comes later in the year and I, think that's important, because what we reason, taxes, what we sent the budget art, has a direct impact on the services that we provide your communities and our ability to grow Scotland's economy. I.

H

Think it's been a very good debate, then the sense that we've we've held from most of the parties for the possession, as authorities of Sarah possession of no income tax rises well in Rainey's, advocated the long held possession of using a penny income tax to support investment in education party Carvey's Lido using Duffin rates.

H

Today's taxes, what's been disappointing enough, is that the government essentially have sat on the fence in terms of what their position is, because what the Labour Party are trying to doing this to be a say, association where we we agree that we will raise income tax in order to produce greater investment and public services and the the SNP of backed out from answering that question today and it's an important question when you look at the landscape of public services in Scotland.

H

Take the NHS, for example, three hundred operations cancelled in July I had a constituent come to me last week that it's going to take 21 months from me from first diagnosed to when he will be able to get a heart replacement. That is totally unacceptable. An education we heard Alec really outline the possession of four thousand west teachers, and that has a direct impact.

H

As we saw last week when the head teacher of Trinity Academy wrote a asking for volunteers to fill up the gaps in the teaching resource and that school, and that's not the first time that that's happened. And then you look at the possession in councils.

H

7,000 jobs lost and 2015 16 alone, as that's the SNP government piles on the public spending cuts towards Scotland communities. It's just not on presiding officer and I. Think there's the real issue about the film this aspect of the the taxation policies being pursued by the SNP government, as in gray pointed out, millionaires are only paying to pound more in tax fare week and, as as new finally pointed out, the proposed reduction and ADT will result not only in taking a hundred and ninety million cones over the Scottish budget.

H

But, as the think-tank fellow-travellers pointed out, the those who will benefit will be the top ten percent of taxpayers. Will the bottom ten percent of taxpayers suffer a disadvantage so there's a lack of fairness around those taxation policies being produced and being looked at, but by the SNP yeah taking Jim.

A

Coughing Jim MacAlpine, please explain.

U

To me why Libre Council's have not taken the opportunity that they have to raise console tax to meet some of the challenges you describes.

A

H

Okay councils, all across Scotland a feast, a hundred and seventy million pounds cumulative cuts because of the votes of the SNP benches here today.

H

But the reality is the reality is, but Derek Mackay tells us that he wants it to be about taxation. He's got an army full of several servants and yet is asking the other political parties to come up with their suggestions and Taxation. That comes down to gives you an answers on a postcard, please Derek, Mackay care of st.

H

Andrews house and one of the disappointing aspect so that when when Danny Mackay comes to publish the model- and it comes to look at the model and that he's been discussing this afternoon, the last one of the last times the Scottish government produced had modelling on local income tax. They went to court to stop the publication of it. So when we actually see this this model and can write, let's publish it and weights of full transparency.

H

I mean what we, what we need is an open and honest to be, and what we had from the SNP benches was a lot any of excuses as to how they could. Oh, they couldn't face up to the issue of taking an honest possession or in taxation. No I mean in terms of the Tories they clearly tea, a possession of no support.

H

No income tax raise and I think that is rooted in a belief that they would quit gladly cut, cut taxes back to the Viet minimum, because I'm not particularly interested and invested in the public sector. They they see. The public sector is something of a handicap and that underpins the whole ideology. I also think that that argument is flawed in terms of a taxation not equal in economic growth, I.

H

Think if you look at the recent survey produced by technology Scotland, they make the point and that those that there's a skills gap and Scot and then that we need to address that skills gap and I would genuinely argue that the way to do that is to invest more in schools and colleges to ensure, therefore, that we get more information, technology and and engineering graduates both of those colleges and universities, in order to fill the skills gap and in order to raise more taxation to promote economic growth and summon up and presiding officer.

H

This is not only a debate about taxation. It said to be about what sort of country we want Scotland to be. If we really want to see a more passionate and a more dignified country, then we need to be prepared to make that investment in services and raise the taxation to make the difference. If we want to treat our old people with dignity.

H

If we want to see our youngsters have the opportunities to graduate from college and university and earn decent wages, and if we want to address a housing crisis, we need to face up to the decisions that are required for that support. The label motion at five o'clock: let's invest in our public services and raise the taxation to make that happen.

A

Thank you. That concludes our debate and finance. The next item of business is consideration of to business motions motion, travel, 7/8, setting out a business program and motion travel, 7 9 on an extension to stage 1 timetable, hadass Karen, who objects to say so now, and I call in Javas, Patrick and after the primary Bureau to move proportions formally moved. Thank you very much. No one has asked to speak against the motions. Therefore, the question is that motions travel, 7, 8 and travel 7 9 be agreed. Are we all agreed? Thank you very much.

A

The neck side of our business is consideration of permits, reviewed emotion, 7, 7, 8 0, on designation of valid committee and I would ask to fitzpatrick above the bureau to move the motion moved. Thank you very much. We turn now to decision time and I would remind members that if the amendment in the name of Derek Makai is agreed, then all the other amendments would fall.

A

So the first question is that amendment 775 0.4, in the name of Derek Mackay, who seeks to amend, motion 7, 7, 5 0 in the name of Allah Crowley, be agreed, are we all agreed were not agreed, we'll move to a division and members be cast of us now.

A

The result of the vote on amendment 775 0.4 in the name of Terrell Makai is yes 61, no 63 there were no abstentions. The amendment is therefore not agreed drawing members. If the amendment name of murder freezer is agreed, then the subsequent amendments would fall. The question is that amendment 7 7 5 0 in the name of murder, freezer which domain the motion in the name of Allah Crowley on Finance, are well agreed. We're not agreed we'll move to vote and members may cast their votes now.

A

The result of the vote on amendment 775 0.1 in the name of murder Fraser is yes 30, no 94 there were no abstentions. The moment is therefore not agreed, our members, that if the amendment in the name of Patrick Harvey's agreed, then the amendment in him of Willie Rennie would fall. The question is that amendment seven seven, five, zero point: three in the name of Patrick Harvie, who seeks to amend the motion, the name of Alan Riley be agreed.

A

Are we all agreed we're not agreed we'll move to a division and members may cast the votes now.

A

The result of the vote on amendment seven, seven, five, zero point three in the name of patrick harvie, is yes, six, no 58 there were sixty abstentions and the moment is therefore not agreed. The next question is the amendment. Seven, seven, five, zero point: two in the name of Willie Rennie, who seeks to amend the motion in the name of allah crowley be agreed, are L agreed, we're not agreed. We move to a division and members may cast the votes now.

X

A

Result of the vote on amendment 775 0.2 in the name of Willie Rennie is yes, 5, no 59, abstentions. 60. The amendment is therefore not agreed.

A

An expression is that motion 7 7 5 0 in the name of Alec Raleigh on Finance, be agreed. Are we all agreed we're not agreed we'll move to a vote and members may cast their votes now.

A

The result of the vote on motion 775 zero in the name of our trolley is yes, 33, no 30 there were 61 of sanctions. The motion is therefore agreed.

A

The final question is that motion 778 0 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick on designation of a lead committee be agreed. Are we all agreed? We are agreed, and that concludes decision time, we'll move to members business in the name of Linda Fabiani, on fighting for tax jobs and tax justice. We'll just take a few moments to change these.