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A
The
next
item
of
business
is
to
beat
on
motion
one
eight,
seven,
seven,
eight
in
the
name
of
Michael
Russell
on
the
citizens,
Assembly
of
Scotland
I,
would
ask
those
who
wish
to
speak
in
the
debate
to
place
the
requests
to
speak
buttons.
Please
and
I
call
on
Michael
Russell
to
speak
to
you
and
move
the
motion
for
11
minutes.
Please
cabinet
secretary,
Thank.
B
You
presiding
officer
I
am
sure
that
every
member
of
this
Parliament
will
always
listen
attentively
to
what
Scotland
has
to
say.
All
of
us
as
ms
peas
listen
to
and
act
on
what
we
hear
in
our
constituencies
and
regions
surgeries
and
in
local
events.
We
meet
and
learn
from
individuals
who
bring
us
their
worries,
their
concerns,
their
ideas
and
even
their
enthusiasms.
B
This
is
Scotland's
Parliament,
where
the
representatives
of
the
people
of
Scotland,
elected
by
a
fair
system
of
proportional
representation,
speak
on
behalf
of
their
parties
than
more
importantly,
their
electors.
The
last
few
years
of
brexit
division
show
that
listening
is
important,
but
they
also
show
that
we
must
do
better.
I've
heard
a
row
back
from
the
current
impasse
and
find
a
way
forward.
Is
the
nation
we
must
listen
to
new
voices
and
in
new
ways.
B
We
must
turn
down
the
volume
on
what
divides
us
and
turn
it
up
on
ways
of
moving
forward
together
and
to
do
so
we
must
not
just
listen,
we
must
pay
attention,
focus
and
understand,
and
then
we
must
act,
and
that
is
what
the
citizens
sim
Assembly
of
Scotland
is
about.
It
is
a
radical
act
of
listening,
an
intervention
in
a
political
culture
that
can
seem
more
concerned
with
making
its
own
point,
no
matter
the
cost
and
listening
to
the
points
of
view
of
others.
B
Now
nobody
presiding
officer
could
deny
that
I
am
a
robust
politician.
I
was
schooled
in
a
robust
age
of
debate,
and
sometimes
it
shows
I'm
as
guilty
as
anyone
in
this
chamber
of
misusing
language,
but
the
times
we
are
in
call
for
other
voices
to
be
heard
and
people
to
speak
in
other
ways.
Formal
politics
is
not
the
only
way
to
find
solutions;
sometimes
it
may
not
even
be
the
best
way.
The
Assembly
is
therefore
about
doing
things,
a
different
way,
with
a
different
tone
and
developing
a
different
democratic
language.
B
International
experience
shows
that
such
approaches
can
bring
new
perspectives
and
new
solutions,
but
by
definition
such
initiatives
are
not
about
politicians
and
therefore,
this
debate
today
marks
the
moment
at
which
Scotland's
citizens
assembly
becomes
an
independent
entity
reaching
out
to
make
a
new
contribution
to
our
country.
The
citizens
Assembly
of
Scotland
now
has
its
remit
and
Parliament
is
being
invited
to
endorse
it.
It
is
our
first
national
citizens,
assembly
sponsored
by
government
but
wholly
separate
from
it,
and
its
remit
goes
to
the
heart
of
the
question
facing
our
country.
B
The
remit
asks
the
Assembly
to
consider
three
things:
what
type
of
country
we
are
seeking
to
build,
how
best
we
can
overcome
the
challenges
Scotland
in
the
world
faced
in
the
21st
century,
including
those
arising
from
brexit,
and
what
further
work
should
be
carried
out
to
give
us
the
information
we
need
to
make
informed
choices
about
our
future.
These
are
broad
questions,
but
deliberately
so
the
Assembly
will
listen,
deliberate
and
come
to
conclusions.
It's
entirely
free
to
define
what
it
thinks
are.
B
The
challenges
facing
Scotland
in
the
world
within
the
framework
set
out
in
the
remit
in
terms
of
reference
it
will
set
its
own
agenda,
put
in
place
its
own
work
plan
and
draw
its
own
conclusions.
Could
that
agenda
take
it
to
places
that
are
uncomfortable
for
this
government,
of
course,
and
if
I'm
prepared
to
accept
and
acknowledge
that,
then
I
have
to
say
constructively
to
those
who
still
stand
against
this
initiative?
B
C
B
B
Officers,
the
lack
of
trust
I'm
seeking
to
address
this
today,
I
will
say
more
about
the
independence
the
citizens
assembly
now
and
I'm
sure
that
all
members,
including
mr.
Simpson,
who
finds
his
entertaining,
might
trust
me
a
little
to
find
out
how
this
is
going
to
move
forward.
We
should
all
presiding
officer
want
to
be
challenged
by
the
assembly,
as
it
will
say
things
and
do
things
that
make
each
and
every
one
of
us
think
anew
and
reflect
anew,
think
anew
and
reflect
anew.
D
Adam
Thomas
I'm
very
grateful
to
the
cabinet
Secretariat
for
giving
way
on
this
subject
of
trust
and
thinking
anew.
Does
the
cabinet
secretary
agree
with
the
remarks
attributed
to
David
Martin,
one
of
the
co
convenors
of
the
assembly,
that
it
was,
in
his
words,
a
mistake
to
introduce
into
Scotland
the
idea
of
a
citizen's
assembly
as
part
of
a
package
of
measures
seeking
independence
for
the
country?
Michael.
B
I've
heard:
did
it
Martin's
view
on
this
I
think
in
retrospect,
I
can
understand
why
people
think
that
there
was
no
intention,
I
have
to
say
presiding
officer,
to
do
well,
well
I'm,
trying
to
make
a
point
which
can
be
believed
or
not
believed.
There
was
no
intention
to
say
that
this
citizens
assembly
would
be
driving
forward
there.
Any
other
agenda
than
the
one
I've
put
forward.
B
I
understand
David
man's
point
of
view,
I
respect
that
point
of
view
and
if
time
had
been
different,
if
we
have
our
time
again,
perhaps
we
would
have
done
it
in
a
different
way.
I
think
that's
a
fair
reflection
of
where
I
stand
so
the
first
an
important
step.
However,
achieving
a
fully
independent
citizen
assembly
was
the
appointment
of
two
entirely
independent
conveners,
whose
role
is
to
steward
lead
and
represent
the
Assembly
David
Martin
and
his
distinguished
track
record
is
a
labour
MEP.
B
Speaking
for
Scotland
in
Europe
will
be
familiar
to
everyone
here,
and
his
integrity
and
expertise
when
it
comes
to
many
of
the
most
pressing
issues
of
the
day
is
unimpeachable,
Kait
whim
process
established
and
led
arts
organizations
in
Scotland
and
Northern
Ireland
for
nearly
30
years.
She
brings
to
a
new
role,
considerable
experience
and
insight
into
the
engaging
and
inspiring
of
communities
into
how
best
to
listen,
how
to
amplify
the
voices
of
the
less
heard,
a
presiding
officer.
It
is
over
to
them.
Now.
B
We've
also
published
this
weaker
Memorandum
of
Understanding
between
the
Scottish
and
the
conveners.
This
memorandum,
I
hope,
will
make
real
the
promises
we
have
made
about
the
Assembly's
independence.
It
provides
for
a
secretariat
accountable
to
and
taking
their
direction
from,
the
conveners
for
a
budget
and
for
the
Assembly
to
be
able
to
receive
directly
and
independently
the
advice,
support
and
services.
It
requires
it's
essential
that
this
assembly
is
run
to
the
highest
standards
of
public
administration,
that
it
demonstrates
the
potential
for
deliberative
democracy
and
fulfills.
B
The
ambition
of
everyone
involved
to
develop
something
inclusive,
accessible
and
open-minded
I
understand
the
need
for
reassurance,
I'm
happy
to
meet
with
any
representative
of
any
party
that
wants
to
discuss
it
further.
I'd
encourage
them
to
meet
the
conveners
and
to
discuss
these
matters
and
recruitment
for
the
members
has
already
begun.
People
are
out
there
knocking
on
doors
working
to
find
a
broadly
representative
cross-section
of
Scottish
society
to
take
part
in
something
very
special
which,
for
six
weekends,
between
October
and
April
next
year,
they
will
debate,
share
views
and
decide
on
recommendations.
B
We
could
shape
the
future
of
their
country
now
them
first
meeting
will
be
held
over
the
weekend
of
26th
and
27th
of
October.
That's
only
days
before
the
current
date
of
prospective
EU
exit,
things
will
undoubtedly
change
before
them
and
change
again
before
the
assembly.
Finally
reports
in
May
next
year
there
will,
it
is
almost
certain,
be
a
general
election
in
the
UK.
This
government
will
continue
to
press
for
a
referendum
which
would
allow
the
United
Kingdom
to
stay
in
EU.
We
will
request
the
section
30
order.
B
B
The
evidence-based
and
balanced
approach
of
the
Assembly
will
help
provide
us
with
facts,
considered
opinions
and
a
framework
for
thinking
whenever
we
end
up
in
spring
next
year.
Wherever
debating,
none
of
us
will
I
hope
wish
to
turn
away
from
an
informed
representative
and
balanced
contribution
to
our
national
debate.
I
began
by
saying
presiding
over
as
I
wanted
to
know
and
to
listen
to
what
Scotland
thinks,
but
I'll
go
further
I.
We
need
to
know
what's
gotten
things,
we
need
to
know
the
type
of
country
that
people
have
Scotland
want
to
build.
B
We
need
to
know
what
people
think
are
the
greatest
challenges
and
we
need
to
know
what
information
the
people
of
Scotland
want
to
have.
If
they
are,
we
are
to
face
up
the
responsibility
of
overcoming
these
challenges.
The
brags
that
debate
has
demonstrated
what
discord
can
arise
when
big
constitutional
questions
are
posed
in
a
way
that
does
not
include
a
whole
country
in
a
way
that
distorts
rather
than
forms
in
a
way
that
allows
no
one
whatever
side
of
the
bait
they're
on
to
have
confidence
in
the
terms
or
the
implications
of
the
outcome.
B
It
is
shown
what
happens
when
the
result.
Only
heat
in
a
debate
there's
no
light
to
shine
into
our
different
thoughts,
fears
and
hopes.
All
parties
in
this
chamber
have
spoken
of
the
need
to
improve
dialogue,
to
step
back,
to
consider
all
points
of
view
more
carefully.
This
assembly
provides
us
with
the
opportunity
to
relearn
how
this
assembly
report,
as
it
sees
fit
to
this
Parliament,
to
the
government
and
to
the
people
of
Scotland.
Its
remit,
in
terms
of
reference,
require
its
report
to
be
laid
before
Parliament.
B
It
expects
this
Parliament
to
consider
and
scrutinize
the
report,
and
it
requires
the
Scottish
Government
has
set
out
within
three
months
what
it
intends
to
do
in
respect
to
the
Assembly's
recommendations.
The
Assembly's
report
will
not
replace
this
Parliament's
Democrat
function
of
deliberating
and
deciding
it's
one
part
of
Scotland's
story,
but
I
hope
it
would
be
a
big
and
significant
part,
presiding
officer.
This
Parliament
was
the
beginning
of
a
new
side
to
follow-ons.
B
He
feels
famous
remark
about
1707
being
the
end
of
an
old
sang,
but
a
song
can
have
many
voices
and
the
more
they
sing
in
harmony,
the
better
they
sound.
This
will
be
Scotland's
first,
national
citizens
assembly,
but
not
its
last.
The
Green
Party
are
proposing
a
future
assembly
and
climate
change.
This
government
will
be
happy
to
endorse
that
help
to
make
it
happen
in
this
session
for
Parliament
I.
B
Believe
adding
citizens
assemblies
to
our
civic
and
democratic
structures
is
a
natural
state
for
this
open
and
more
inclusive,
Parliament
I'm
sure
that
the
lessons
of
the
first
one
will
help
that
happen.
When
Henry
McLeish
presented
the
report
of
the
cross
party
steering
group
in
1998,
he
set
out
the
key
principles
that
should
guide
the
design
of
this
place.
They
included
an
ambition
at
the
Parliament,
should
embody
and
reflect
the
sharing
of
power
between
the
peoples
of
Scotland.
We've
done
a
lot
to
live
up
to
that
ideal,
but
we
can
do
more.
B
A
E
You,
deputy
presiding
officer
I
seem
to
have
set
up,
set
Mike
Russell
and
he
is
so
upset.
He
frequently
takes
to
social
media
to
pleat
that
I
talked
to
him.
I
know
it's
difficult
to
believe
that
I
could
upset
such
a
self-effacing,
modest
self-deprecating
gentleman
who's
a
member
of
this
chamber,
but
if
I
can
see
to
Mike
Russell
this
afternoon,
they
will
be
happy
to
talk
anytime
on
most
issues.
Indeed,
we
talk
a
lot
on
many
issues
over
many
many
months.
In
fact,
we
worked
together
on
the
EU
with
Robbo
and
the
continued
table.
E
We
didn't
just
work
together.
We
agreed
with
each
other
on
that.
We
agreed
that
they
conservative
government
were
taking
powers
that
should
right
right.
They
have
been
placed
here
from
the
very
beginning.
We
we
talked
about
the
people's
walked.
In
fact,
we
eventually
persuaded
them
to
back
the
people's
vote,
so
we
will
work
together
where
we
can
agree.
We
also
support
the
citizens
assembly
as
our
method
as
a
means
to
reach
agreement
on
the
way
ahead
on
challenging
issues,
for
example,
to
reach
Net
Zero
greenhouse
gas
emissions.
E
People
will
need
to
be
prepared
to
make
more
radical
changes
in
the
day
to
day
life
such
as
such
changes
through,
though,
must
have
a
democratic
foundation
and
a
citizen's
assembly
on
the
climate.
We'd
help
to
provide
exactly
that.
We
need
to
understand
the
different
perspectives
people
have
and
the
different
ways
in
which
this
process
will
affect
their
lives,
so
that
transition
to
carbon,
neutral
economy
can
be
accomplished
as
quickly
and
as
fairly
and
as
legitimately
as
possible,
and
it
can
be
done
through
those
assemblies.
E
That's
the
kind
of
measure
that
we
think
the
Assembly
would
be
ideally
suited
for.
That's
why
we
deeply
deeply
regret
that
the
first
opportunity
to
utilize
this
tool
was
when
the
first
minister
announced
it
earlier
this
year
as
part
of
a
statement
all
about
the
next
steps
to
achieve
independence.
That's
what
make
Russell's
upset
about
that.
He
complains
that
we
won't
take
part,
but
we
don't
support
independence.
How
could
we
take
part
in
that
kind
of
initiative?
So
can
you
really
blame
us
when
we
listen
to
David
Martin?
As
Adam
Tompkins
has
already
highlighted?
E
He
said
it
was
a
mistake
to
wrap
the
two
together
and
he
was
right.
It
is
deeply
flawed.
As
a
result,
the
process
is
flawed,
now
I'm,
an
avid
reader
of
the
national
newspaper
and
that
journal
that
record
of
all
things
Scottish
moving
on
from
their
campaign
earlier
this
summer
about
the
harassment
of
Scottish
strawberry
producers,
who
dared
to
put
the
union
flag
on
their
strawberry
punnets,
they
turned
their
attention
to
the
citizens.
Assembly
I
thought
it
was
good
to
give
space
over
to
this
issue.
E
In
fact,
they
gave
space
to
Joanna
cherry,
remember,
Joanna
cherry
she's,
very
famous
today,
I
would
say
the
court
who
speaks
for
the
party
on
Home
Affairs
in
the
House
of
Commons.
She
wrote
this
I
have
been
inundated
with
queries
about
how
a
citizen's
assembly
might
work
and
how
it
could
help
us
achieve
independence,
and
she
went
on
I
was
delighted
when
the
First
Minister
embraced
my
plan
as
part
of
the
package
of
measures
paving
the
way
for
independent
referendum
to
the
says
assembly
process
will
lay
the
foundation
for
the
referendum.
E
D
I,
don't
Thomas
grateful
to
mr.
Verney
for
taking
the
invention,
I
wonder
if
mr.
Rainey
knows
that
earlier
on
this
afternoon
in
this
chamber
in
portfolio
questions,
the
cabinet
secretary,
Mike
Russell
was
invited
from
these
benches
to
distance
himself
from
the
remarks
of
join
a
cherry,
and
that
was
an
invitation.
He
declined
to
take
up
well.
B
Think
it
would
be
important
that
the
actual
words
I
used
were
quoted
in
this
and
I
think
the
official
report
might
to
want
to
produce
them
on
no
occasion
whether
you
is
I
refused
to
distance
myself.
I
made
my
position
very
clear,
as
the
minister
responsible
for
this
I
think
that
should
have
been
quoted
properly
and
not
improperly.
E
Her
just
in
the
course
to
debate
in
this
Cheban
and
I
think
that's
quite
right,
because
I
am
incredibly
grateful
to
joanna
cherry,
because
she's,
given
us
such
clarity
fact
such
honesty,
but
her
expose
of
the
real
purpose
of
the
assembly
makes
it
impossible
for
us
to
take
part
in
it.
We
now
know
it
is
a
ruse.
It's
a
scheme,
it's
a
mechanism
to
help
via
campaign
for
independence.
E
Now
I
fever.
Abolishing
the
member
says
it's
our
obsession
about
independence.
This
was
their
idea
to
have
this
as
assembly.
It
was
their
idea
to
wrap
up
with
independence.
It
was
their
member
of
parliament
that
put
independence
at
the
heart
of
it.
So
don't
say
that
we're
obsessed
of
our
independence
as
them
since
their
independence,
but
I
fever
abolishing
the
House
of
Lords,
changing
the
unfair
first-past-the-post
voting
system
having
a
written
constitution
wind
that
have
helped
us
today.
E
If
we
had
that
written
constitution,
powerful,
regional
and
national
assemblies
and
Parliament's
a
federal
structure,
but
all
of
that
is
impossible
to
have
a
discussion
in
the
assemblies
with
this
half
Machiavellian,
it's
not
even
Machiavellian,
it's
half
machiavel
and
it's
half
clever.
It's
an
SMP
approach
is
a
Juwanna
cheery
inspired
citizens
assembly
and
that's
why
we
kind
of
absolutely
nothing
to
do
with
it,
and
no
one
who
wants
to
keep
the
United
Kingdom
together
should
have
anything
to
do
with
it
either.
E
Once
we
have
stopped
brexit,
we
need
to
change
the
UK,
but
the
idea
that
this
very
moment
in
the
national
crisis,
we
need
yet
another
discussion
about
independence.
Another
discussion,
for
goodness
sake,
let's
move
on,
let's
stop
breaks
it.
Let's
get
this
country
on
track.
Let's
reform
this
country,
this
citizen,
Assembly,
has
got
absolutely
nothing
to
do
with
that.
E
D
Thank
you,
presiding
officer,
I
want
to
turn
my
attention
first
to
the
Liberal
Democrat
amendment,
which
has
just
been
so
movingly
moved
by
mr.
Rainey,
and
we
on
these
benches
very
strongly
agree
with
every
word
of
it,
not
quite
with
every
word
of
his
speech,
but
with
certainly
with
the
sentiment
behind
it.
The
it
is
a
matter
of
deep
regret.
D
I
think
that
the
idea
of
a
citizen's
assembly
for
Scotland
was
introduced
into
this
Parliament
and
into
Scottish
politics
as
part
of
a
package
of
measures
designed
by
the
First
Minister
to
achieve
independence
for
Scotland
and
I.
Think
everybody
can
understand.
Even
Mike.
Russell
can
understand
why
that
has
made
us
all
so
deeply
suspicious
of
this.
D
Just
as
we
have
our
suspicions
about
the
referendums
bill,
which
is
another
part
of
the
same
package,
and
for
all
of
these
reasons,
deputy
presiding
officer,
we
will
be
voting
for
the
Liberal
Democrat
amendment
tonight
now,
I
want
to
turn
my
attention
to
the
government
motion
itself
and
the
first
thing
that
the
government
motion
says
is
that
the
Parliament
supports
the
use
of
deliberative
democracy
in
Scotland.
Well,
I
do
support
it.
D
I
do
support
the
use
of
deliberative
democracy
in
Scotland,
and
let
me
explain
why
I'll
try
and
explain
why
briefly
presiding
officer,
if
I
can
my
reason
for
being
supportive
of
the
idea
of
deliberative
democracy
in
Scotland
is
because
I
don't
think
party
politics
gets
everything
right.
I,
don't
think
that
this
Parliament
has
shown
that
it
is
able
to
get
to
the
bottom
of
every
social
or
economic
problem
that
faces
Scotland
today
for
all
of
its
merits.
D
For
all
of
its
virtues,
this
Parliament
does
not
have
all
of
the
answers,
even
when
we
all
come
together
to
agree
that
an
issue
is
a
pressing
national
importance.
Climate
change
might
be
one
good
example,
and
if
we
had
started
with
the
citizens
assembly
on
climate
change
and
then
moved
to
other
matters,
I
think
that
would
have
been
infinitely
preferable
to
starting
with
the
Constitution
and
with
the
SMPS
obsession
on
independence,
but
another
example
and
the
example
I've
given
before
you
know.
We
all
agree
that
Scotland
faces
a
crisis
when
it
comes
to
drugs
deaths.
D
You
know
there
is
cross
party
agreement
that
this
is
an
issue
which
blights
our
nation
and
which
I
think
changed
us
all,
actually
that
we
have
not
been
able
to
come
together
as
a
parliament
to
agree
our
way
forward.
It
is
an
issue
which,
unfortunately
and
I
think
this
is
actually
it's
not
just
unfortunate,
so
appalling
that
it
has
become
constitutionalized
about
where
reserve
powers
lie
with
regard
to
safe
consumption
facilities.
D
It's
exactly
the
kind
of
issue
that
party
politics
is
failing
to
address
in
Scotland
and
that
a
citizen's
assembly
could
and
should,
in
my
view,
be
established
to
address
and
if
we'd
started
there.
If
we'd
started
with
climate
change,
if
we'd
started
with
drugs
deaths
than
perhaps
we
could
have
had
much
less
suspicion
around
the
idea
of
citizens
assemblies,
and
perhaps
we
could
genuine
all
parties
support
for
it.
Happy
to
give
away
Stevenson.
F
I
very
much
accept
much
of
what
the
member
has
said
about
drug
deaths
and
I
first
was
involved
in
a
difficulties
in
this
area
in
the
early
1960s.
Would
it
be
helpful,
though,
if
across
the
UK,
all
of
those
who
might
be
able
to
influence
policy
and
practice
on
drug
deaths
were
able
to
sit
in
the
one
room
together
or
does
it
need
a
citizens
assembly
to
summon
such
people
and
bypass
the
political
system?
I'm,
not
quite
clear
what
the
member
is
saying.
D
D
The
answer
the
first
part
of
question
is
yes,
it
would
be
helpful
and
it
should
happen
in
my
view
and
I
know
what
the
consequences
of
that
are.
The
next
part
of
the
government's
motion,
presiding
officer,
notes,
various
matters
which
again
we're
very
happy
to
note.
We
note
the
appointment
of
the
convener
as
we
note
the
principles
and
remit
of
the
citizens
assembly.
We
note
its
terms
of
reference
and
we
note
likewise
that
the
citizens
assemblies
report
will
be
laid
before
Parliament.
D
D
If
this
becomes,
as
we
suspect
it
will
and
as
we
suspect,
it
is
a
proxy
for
independence
or
for
full
fiscal
autonomy
or
for
Devo
max
or
for
any
other
constitutional
scheme
designed
to
undermine
the
integrity
of
the
United
Kingdom,
then
we
will
vote
against
the
government
motion
tonight.
There
is
one
very
significant
omission
and
omission
from
the
government
motion,
and
that
is
the
question
of
cost.
What
is
it
costing
to
establish
the
citizens
assembly
to
administer
it
to
run
it?
What
are
we
paying
members?
What
are
we
paying
conveners?
D
B
Russell
I
think
a
key
issue
in
this
assembly
is
its
transparency,
and
the
assembly
will
be
committed
to
publishing
its
costs
in
full
right
so
at
the
appropriate
moment,
and
that
will
be
up
to
the
assembly
when
it
does
that
it
will
do
so
and
I.
Don't
think
there'll
be
any
doubt
about
that,
and
it
will
be
for
everybody
to
see
Adam.
D
I'm
grateful
to
the
Minister
for
that,
although
he
didn't
actually
shine
any
light
on
the
question
you
just
said
it
would
be
transparent
at
some
point
in
the
future.
We've
heard
it's
been
quoted
before
already
this
afternoon.
What
David
Martin
has
said
about
the
coupling
of
citizens
assembly
in
Scotland
with
the
idea
of
interpretive
independence,
but
it's
not
just
David
Martin,
who
is
of
this
view,
Neal
McCoy,
I.
Think
the
former
editor
of
The
Sunday
Herald
and
a
independent
supporting
journalist
has
said
this
and
I
quote.
D
The
idea
was
a
simple
elegant
addition
to
our
democracy,
but
the
SNP
has
now
stomped
all
over
it.
He
said
politicized
it
and
made
it
look
falsely
like
a
propaganda
unit.
The
party's
behavior
is
completely
counterproductive
and
I
quote
that
presiding
officer,
not
in
anger
but
in
sadness.
I
think
this
is
this:
had
the
potential
to
be
a
really
good
idea,
I
had
the
potential
to
be
a
really
useful
addition
to
the
parliamentary
democracy
that
we
have
here
in
Scotland
and
the
SNP
have
ruined
it.
G
Thank
You,
presiding
officer
and
opener
for
leave
of
today
I
would
like
to
the
earth
support
for
the
principles
of
citizens.
Assemblies
I
would
also
like
to
welcome
the
appointment
of
both
David
Martin
and
Kate
when
pressed
to
the
citizens
assembly
for
Scotland
I
do
have
faith
that
they
will
be
both
independent
and
hardworking,
who
conveners
too
often
these
days,
I
find
myself
having
to
advocate
for
democracy
and
reiterate
in
the
point
that
well,
flawed
is
still
a
good
thing.
G
More
democracy
is
certainly
no
bad
thing
and
the
principles
of
a
deliberative
democracy
and
this
use
in
Scotland
should
be
since
assemblies
are
a
proven
and
respected
method.
When
done
properly,
they
can
help
get
services
working
together
and
allowing
us
as
a
country
to
further
develop
a
culture
of
citizenship.
One
of
the
key
benefits
is
that
they
can
allow
complex
issues
to
be
explored
in
debt
by
the
people
who
are
directly
affected.
G
So
I
would
be
grateful
if
the
cabinet
secretary
and
his
summon
art
will
clarify
this
point
again
and
we've
done
so
already,
but
if
he
can
clarify
that
again,
the
way
I
understand
that
the
government
are
committed
to
bringing
the
assembly
forward
in
good
faith,
and
if
this
is
indeed
the
case,
we
will
participate
in
good
faith
and
return.
I
have
some
experience
yeah
my.
C
G
Come
on
to
that
point,
I
have
some
experience
in
deliberative
democracy,
where
I
was
leader
of
faith
council.
We
held
one
of
the
fastest
juries
in
the
country.
This
was
bad
in
March
1997
and
it
was
established
to
examine
public
agencies
and
local
communities
could
do
to
create
employment
opportunities
and
leave
mouth.
This
was
an
incredibly
positive
experience
and,
at
the
end,
the
jury
made
over
50
recommendations,
most
of
which
I'm
pleased
to
say,
were
implemented
when
speaking
with
the
people
that
have
taken
part
in
this
kind
of
juries
or
assemblies.
G
One
of
the
key
messages
that
comes
across
as
how
positive
experience
was
here
are
some
of
the
views
that
were
governed
by
participants
and
the
recent
Irish
citizens.
Assembly
and
I
quote:
help
me
to
lessen,
understand
and
develop.
Empathy
got
balanced
and
truthful
informational
among
the
people
of
Ireland
to
be
out
of
the
realm
of
fearful,
self-interested
calculation.
All
of
us,
we
could
surely
use
enough
politics
in
Scotland.
G
At
the
moment,
I'm
told
that
one
of
the
key
messages
to
we're
coming
out
of
the
Irish
assembly
was
how
to
engage
with
the
players
and
get
them
on
board.
An
early
stage,
it
can't
be
too
easy
for
the
players
to
see
citizens,
assemblies
and
the
negative
or
skeptical
life,
so
I
believe
is
key
to
the
success
of
the
Scottish
assembly.
For
the
press
to
be
fully
engaged
in
the
process
are
all
stages.
That
also
brings
about
much
greater
transparency.
G
I'm
pleased
that
has
been
stated
that
the
citizens
assembly
for
Scotland
will
be
and
dependent
and
transformed
and
inclusive.
These
objectives
are
good
and
I'm
sure
we'll
get
widespread
support
throughout
the
country.
We
are
willing
to
go
into
this
with
an
open
mind
and
I
hope
that
the
government
are
willing
to
do
the
same.
The
questions
proposed
to
frame
the
citizens
assembly
of
what
kind
of
country
are
we
secant
about?
How
can
we
overcome
the
challenges?
Scotland
faces,
including
break
sir,
and
how
can
people
be
govern
the
detail?
G
They
need
to
make
informed
choices
about
Scotland's
future
are
surely
welcome
questions
and
Scottish
Labour
as
well,
and
to
engage
in
these
discussions.
Earth
country
is
undergoing
a
massive
political
upheaval
and
we
need
to
work
together
where
we
can't
ensure
a
level
of
stability
as
returned
to
the
whole
of
the
United
Kingdom.
The
questions
framing
the
assembly
are
questions.
I
myself
would
like
to
answer
and
I
believe
through
collaborative
working
and
engaged
discussions,
the
public,
we
can
say
the
kind
of
Scotland
we
want
to
see
flourish
and
to
the
future.
G
We
are
not
a
party
that
stands
for
the
status
quo,
so
we
will
engage
in
these
discussions
on
what
kind
of
country
we
want
elleven
and
for
Bess
meets
the
needs
and
aspirations
of
the
Scottish
people
and
I
am
clear.
Part
of
this
will
be
constitutional,
social
and
economic
reform
across
the
United
Kingdom.
The
United
Kingdom
is
far
too
centralized
as
I
stay.
G
Indeed,
Scotland
has
become
that
way
as
well
and
we
would
like
to
see
reform
of
how
state
operates
an
economic,
political
and
constitutional
level,
and
we
with
hope
the
discussion
takes
us
in
that
direction.
I
will
finish
presiding
officer
by
saying
to
the
Tories
and
the
Liberals.
We
cannot
stand
still.
We
cannot
go
backwards,
support
this
initiative
and
wait.
Scotland
move
forward
I.
H
I
think
the
Greens
have
long-standing
expressed
support
for
a
deliberative
democracy
in
a
range
of
different
forms
at
a
local
level,
with
participatory
budgeting,
for
example,
we've
seen
that
it
can
be
done
well
or
done
badly
and
we
need
to
as
we
explore
the
greater
use
of
deliberative
democracy.
We
need
to
learn
from
that
experience.
I,
don't
think
that
learning
is
is
going
to
be
well
served
by
the
kind
of
debate
that
so
far
we've
seen
this
afternoon.
H
Deliberative
democracy
and
Adam
Tompkins
is
right
about
this
does
not
in
any
way
need
to
be
seen
as
in
conflict
with
parliamentary
democracy
or
undermining
the
role
of
elected
governments
or
elected
Parliament's.
It
can
be
and
should
be,
complementary
and
enriching,
enriching
in
a
way
that
there
was
so
chronically
missing
in
the
run-up
to
2016.
H
One
of
the
common
themes
that
I
think
we
can
all
recognize
from
the
evidence
that
we've
had
so
far
is
a
distinction
between
a
referendum
held
in
the
full
light
of
a
well
worked
up,
detailed
proposition
either
published
legislation
or
something
details
like
the
the
Scottish
Government's
white
paper
and,
on
the
other
hand,
what
we
saw
in
2016,
a
referendum
based
on
a
narrow
proposition,
something
as
simplistic
as
a
slogan.
Take
back
control,
I.
H
Think
the
Irish
experience
of
using
citizens
assemblies
to
inform,
to
inform
and
enrich
the
debate
about
constitutional
change
in
their
country
is
something
that
we
should
learn
from
something
that
is
a
far
greater
expression
of
genuinely
deep
democracy
than
what
we
saw
in
in
2016.
And
if
the
question
on
EU
membership,
for
example,
had
been
subject
to
that
kind
of
detailed
deliberation
in
advance.
I
think
we
would
have
ended
up
with
a
much
richer
debate
and
far
glit
greater
clarity
about
what
should
happen
as
a
result.
H
Inevitably,
further
constitutional
change
is
coming
whether
brexit
goes
forward
and
is
implemented
and
I
hope
that
it
can
still
be
stopped
or
if
it
is
killed
off
in
its
tracks,
and
we
simply
reflect
on
what
has
happened
to
us
over
these
last
three
years
and
the
level
of
content
that
has
been
shown
to
Scotland's
democracy
by
the
UK
government.
Further
constitutional
change
is
clearly
coming.
Let's
make
sure
that
when
it
comes,
it
is
as
informed
as
it
could
be,
as
it
could
possibly
be
by
that
deliberative
process.
Now,
I
understand
that
you
know.
H
Some
people
want
to
see
this
simply
as
an
opportunity
to
have
a
proxy
debate
about
independence
and
in
Tompkins
doesn't
need
to
be
suspicious
that
the
SNP
might
privately
secretly
covertly
support
independence.
We
all
know
that
they
do.
He
knows
that
I
support
independence,
I
know
that
he
doesn't
I
have
no
fear
from
a
citizen's
assembly
that
wants
to
consider
whatever
proposals.
D
I'm
very
grateful
to
mr.
Harvey
for
giving
away
I
don't
feel
threatened
mr.
hubby,
but
the
difference
is
this:
in
Ireland
citizens
Assembly
had
all
party
buy-in,
because
citizens
assembly
started
on
issues
where
the
all
parties
agreed
needed
to
be
addressed
by
citizens
assembly,
and
that
is
not
the
case
in
Scotland
and
that's
what
I
regret
well.
H
Patrick
Harvey,
indeed
I
regret
that
mr.
Tompkins
party
isn't
buying
in
he's
perfectly
capable
of
buying
in
and
seeing
any
issues
that
he
thinks
the
citizens
assembly
should
consider.
It
will
consider
similarly
I
will
in
just
a
moment
similarly
with
the
Liberal
Democrats
I.
Don't
think
that
a
citizen's
assembly
should
rule,
for
example,
that
federalism
is
issued
to
be
rejected,
but
I
I,
don't
think
that
the
the
Liberal
Democrats
should
be
unwilling
to
see
a
citizen's
assembly
come
forward
and
offer
their
proposals
to
it.
C
He
not
agree
with
me
that
we
can
all
agree
and
have
agreed
in
this
chamber
that
we
face
a
climate
emergency
I
would
have
thought
he
of
all
people
would
have
wanted
to
see
the
first
subject
that
the
citizens
Assembly
address
is
this
climate
emerging.
Yet
we've
heard
nothing
about
it
from
him.
Patrick.
H
Harvey,
well,
he
mr.
rumbles
does
know
I'm
sure
that
that
was
the
basis
of
our
amendment
and
I'll
come
on
to
that
in
a
moment.
I
do
want
to
say,
though,
that,
unlike
him,
I
do
think
that
the
current
constitutional
crisis
that
we
are
in
also
constitutes
an
emergency
from
the
content.
That's
been
shown
for
devolution
to
the
me
today.
H
I'm
glad
that
the
minister
has
said
he
supports
that.
I
hope
that
he
will
say
on
the
record
that
he
will
back
an
amendment
to
the
climate
change
bill,
to
mandate
that
process
and
although
I'm
not
able
to
move
that
amendment
today,
presiding
officer,
I,
do
propose
it
and
I
propose
it
to
all
parties
in
this
chamber
that
they
will
back
an
amendment
to
the
climate
change
bill
as
well.
To
ensure
that
we
can
move
forward
in
that
open,
participative
and
deliberative
process
in
relation
to
climate.
I
We
need
our
politics
to
be
the
product
of
fear
and
rational
debate
and
I'm,
not
for
a
minute
suggesting
that
we
should
hope
passion
from
our
politics,
as
we
always
did
to
show
that
we
care,
but
I
think
that
in
these
troubled
times
we
very
much
need
to
bring
back
into
vogue,
clear,
calm,
heads
and
good
old-fashioned
common
sense
and
in
that
regard,
I
do
believe
its
citizens
assemblies.
They
have
a
contribution
to
make
and
helpin
to
change
it.
I
Some
aspects
of
our
political
culture
and
discourse
I'm
a
big
fan
of
the
author
Zadie
Smith,
and
she
counsels
us
that
for
a
progress
to
survive,
it
needs
to
be
looked
after
and
reimagined
and
the
events
of
the
past.
Few
week's
show
that
we
just
can't
take
our
democracy
for
granted
and,
while
I
have
never
as
a
lifelong
nationalist
wanted
to
be
ruled
from
Westminster
have
always
felt
somewhat
disengaged
from
it.
I
do
nonetheless
have
every
right
as
a
citizen,
to
be
absolutely
outraged
that
the
so
called
mother
of
Parliament's
has
been
proved.
I
As
we
know,
it
globalization
the
rise
of
populism,
the
increase
of
corporate
power,
technological
changes,
social
media,
as
our
a
news
outlet
and
a
campaign
term
to
the
climate,
emergency
and
poverty
and
an
equality,
a
range
of
emergencies
that
would
necessarily
be
able
to
be
tackled
in
isolation
from
each
other,
but
all
of
which
can
lead
to
disengagement
and
distrust.
So
to
protect
our
democracy,
we
need
to
constantly
seek
better
ways
to
reach
out
and
engage,
and
this
is
important
because
Parliament's
are
really
truly
representative
of
the
people.
I
The
seek
to
serve
with
the
prominence
of
so
many
torian's
Westminster
teeny,
increasingly
leaks
and
sounds
like
a
period
drama
from
the
1950s.
But
neither
are
we
enough
Parliament,
a
truly
representative
of
the
diversity
of
Scotland,
and
there
are
many
folk
from
our
different
communities
that
are
just
simply
Messing,
and
this,
of
course
needs
to
be
addressed,
preferably
within
the
21st
century.
But
it
does
underline
the
point
that
we
need
other
forums.
I
I
So
I
know
that
if
I
can
end
with
one
of
these
myths,
a
cladding
cause
of
Colin
on
is
all
to
stop
worrying
about
your
identity
and
concern
yourself
with
the
people
that
you
care
about
ideas
that
matter
to
you
and
the
beliefs.
You
can
run
on
and
I
think
Shido
hit
these
words
and
and
the
times
that
lie
ahead.
Well,
we'll
have
to
be
wary
of
making
productions.
I
think
we're
all
gonna
have
to
step
outside
our
boxes
and
our
comfort
zones.
Thank
You.
J
Forgive
my
skepticism
presiding
officer,
but
this
citizens
assembly
is
no
more
than
a
Trojan
horse.
At
first
glance,
it's
a
benign
chance
to
let
the
public
have
a
say
mired
with
a
hidden
agenda.
Here
we
have
it
again,
it's
another
chance
for
the
SNP
to
push
their
independence
plan
and
this
time
it's
in
the
form
of
a
citizen's
assembly
we've
heard
today.
It
all
is
already
been
doomed
to
fail
to
represent
to
the
people
of
Scotland
and
the
SNP
have
fallen
at
the
first
hurdle
in
terms
of
their
transparency.
J
Sparrin
see
and
fairness
I
see
Mike
Russell
sitting
there
with
his
his
hand
on
his
head,
because
he
is
obviously
in
despair
of
what
his
SNP
colleagues
have
said
about
this
citizens
assembly.
Well,
thank
thank
you
very
kindly.
There
are
a
number
of
reasons
why
I
believe
that
this
citizen's
assembly
is
tainted
by
the
SNP
sin.
Gender.
J
We've
heard
today
that
Joanne
cherry
MP
calling
the
newly
announced
citizens
assembly
the
perfect
way
towards
independence.
This
commentary
from
the
SNP
has
destroyed
what
could
have
been
a
simplistic,
democratic
and
transparent
process.
We
had
Mike
Russell,
saying
Scotland
has
a
fundamental
choice
to
make
about
its
future.
When
it
comes
to
citizens
assemblies.
Well,
we
did
mr.
Russell.
We
voted
no
in
2014
and
your
government
lost
them
in
2016.
Just
make
a
little
bit
of
progress.
Mr.
Arthur,
moreover,
a
prominent
academic,
dr.
Escobar
involved
with
the
Assembly,
has
expressed
his
anger
at
Jaron
cherry.
J
It
seems
there
is
a
trend
here
in
response
to
Terry's
claims
about
the
assembly
dr.
Oliver
Escobar
he
was
involving
involved
in
organizing
the
assembly
said
he
was
kind
of
fuming
at
the
statement
believe
in
Cherry
had
made
the
forums
work
ten
times
harder,
maybe
miss
cherry
had
wished.
She
had
stayed
quiet
about
this.
That's
point
two,
and
on
top
of
these
bloopers
it's
going
to
cost
the
taxpayer
half
a
million
pounds
to
fund.
J
J
I'm
not
sure
on
cherry
is
a
member
of
the
SNP
party.
She
has
a
cheek.
She
has
a
role
to
play.
Well,
she
is,
she
has
made
her
comments
and
she
has
put
the
skepticism
into
the
the
public,
and
that
has
caused
an
issue
with
transparency
and
fairness
regarding
this,
because
we
are
not
against
the
concert
of
citizens
assemblies.
J
The
questions
up
for
debate
are
not
set
by
this
citizens
assembly
itself.
They
are
set
by
the
SNP
government.
The
First
Minister
set
out
three
broad
questions,
as
we've
heard
from
Mike
Russell,
and
forgive
me
for
my
suspicion,
but
these
questions
have
nothing
to
do
with
fixing
the
government's
domestic
record
and
everything
to
do
with
the
Constitution.
It's
nothing
to
do
with,
for
example,
reducing
the
deficit
in
Scotland,
and
it
has
nothing
to
do
with
declining
NHS
performance
or
fewer
teachers
in
our
school.
J
What
I
would
like
to
see-
and
many
of
my
colleagues
would
like
to
see
a
citizen's
assembly
do
its
discuss,
how
better
we
can
reach
a
zero
carbon
economy,
how
better
we
can
deliver
climate
change,
and
the
list
goes
on
to
draw
together
these
points.
It
may
be
argued,
presiding
officer.
The
real
citizen's
assembly
is
here
in
the
Scottish
Parliament
across
the
chamber.
There,
many
people
of
all
political
persuasions
from
all
walks
of
life,
different
backgrounds,
from
different
depressions
and
different
life
experiences.
We
are
elected
to
represent
our
constituents.
J
We
stand
up
for
them
in
this
chamber
every
day,
however,
we
should
remain
open-minded
about
the
concept
of
citizens.
Assemblies
to
conclude,
people
are
highly
suspicious
about
the
motives
of
the
SNP.
They
want
a
citizen's
assembly
because
it
has
been
and
will
always
be
about
independence,
simply
put
presiding
officer.
It
is
a
talking
shop
for
independence
and
very
little
else.
How
can
that
opinion
be
turned
around?
Will
it
seek
the
views
of
people
on
how
the
ESPY
have
dismantled
local
frontline
policing,
leading
to
an
increase
in
crime
No?
Thank
you,
mr.
Arthur.
J
Will
it
seek
the
views
of
people
on
how
to
reverse
the
SNP
failing
on
school
standards?
Will
it
seek
the
views
of
people
on
how
rural
areas
are
plummeting
increasingly
more
isolated
in
a
technologically
advancing
world?
It
is
a
matter
of
deep
regret
that
what
potentially
could
have
been
a
good
idea
has
been
tainted.
J
F
Thank
You
presiding
officer,
interesting
contributions
from
the
conservative
benches,
Adam
Tompkins
saying
that
we
do
not
have
all
the
answers
here
in
this
Parliament
and
I
agree
with
them,
and
Rachel
Hamilton
now
saying
that
this
Parliament
is
the
citizens
assembly
fundamentally
different
points
of
view.
So
there's
obviously
a
difference
of
point
of
view
in
the
Tory
Party
in
the
SNP.
We
have
robust
debates
and
ways
of
dealing
with
different
points
of
view,
but
I
think
the
thing
I
want
to
start
with
is
the
character
and
experience
of
the
convener
I
know
one
of
them.
F
I,
don't
know
the
other
David
Martin
when
he
was
first
elected
as
an
MEP
in
the
1980s,
he
came
into
the
bankers
contant
to
meet
some
of
the
senior
executives
and
I
remember
sitting
around
the
lunch
table,
because
we
were
hospitable
to
David
Martin
to
hear
the
questions
that
he
had
and
the
responses
he
had
to
the
issues
that
he
was
raising
with
us
in
the
Bank
of
Scotland.
So
that's
more
than
30
years
ago.
So
the
one
thing
that
David
Martin
brings
to
the
table
is
objectivity.
F
The
second
thing
he
brings
to
the
table
is
experience,
and
the
third
thing
that
he
brings
to
the
table
is
a
man
who's,
honest
in
his
political
opinions,
and
they
are
not
my
political
opinions,
their
political
opinions
that
come
from
a
different
tradition.
So
if
we
attack
the
citizen's
assembly,
we
attack
David
Martin
and
his
substantial
record
of
public
service
and
his
preparedness
to
serve
the
public
good
and
to
serve
the
Democratic
deficit
that
there
undoubtedly
is
the
Democratic
emergency
that
there
is
in
these
islands.
F
Today's
court
judgment
is
just
one
part
of
a
continuing
failure
of
the
democratic
systems
in
the
UK
as
a
whole
to
solve
major
problems.
Now,
climate
change
I
absolutely
support.
The
proposal
has
come
from
the
green
benches
and
being
supported
from
the
conservative
benches
that
we
need
to
involve
citizens
more
in
the
issue
of
climate
change,
I
took
the
bill
forward
in
20
or
name,
and
we
had
unanimous
support.
Then
I
hope
again.
We
will
do
so
here,
but
we're
in
an
era
of
post
truth
politics,
climate
changes,
an
issue.
F
Globalization
is
a
matter
of
debate.
Our
citizens
have
to
be
part
of
deciding
our
future
now
in
this
who's,
actually
taking
the
risk
by
establishing
the
citizens
assembly.
We
in
this
Parliament
have
a
majority
in
favour
of
independence,
but
we
who
support
that
particular
objective
part
of
a
wider
agenda
not
standing
on
its
own.
F
We
are
taking
the
risk
that
this
citizens
assembly,
independent
of
government
chaired
by
someone
who's,
been
a
lifelong
opponent
in
the
political
philosophy
that
I
suppose
can
come
up
with
a
conclusion
which
one
may
be
desperately
uncomfortable,
no
I
happen
to
believe
that
we
will
have
convincing
evidence
and
arguments
that
will
lead
them
to
a
different
place,
but
we
are
the
ones
taking
the
risk.
Those
of
us
who
support
Scottish
independence,
the
fact
that
the
Tories
will
not
take
such
risks.
The
fact
that
the
Liberal
Democrats
will
need
not
take
such
risks
is
very
revealing.
F
Indeed
so,
a
presiding
officer.
We
have
an
opportunity
to
recalibrate
the
way
our
democracy
works.
The
what
is
in
front
of
the
citizens
assembly
lays
out
the
way
they
can.
They
can
address
issues,
but
they
are
masters
of
their
own
destiny.
The
Liberal
Democrat
Amendment
does
not
disagree
with
the
remit
in
terms
of
the
assembly
I
invite
them
to
endorse
them
in
their
concluding
remarks
and,
of
course,
the
world
independence
appears
nowhere
in
it.
The
UK,
its
relationship
with
the
devolved
nations
in
general
is
changing,
and
indeed
within
England.
F
There
are
huge
tensions
across
the
geography
and
different
experiences
of
people
in
different
parts
of
England,
so
citizens
assemblies
can
be
an
important
part
of
allowing
countries
to
consider
how
they
take
themselves
forward
in
Ireland,
the
removal
of
the
8th
amendment
to
the
constitution
was
a
suitable
place
for
the
citizens
assembly
to
contribute
to
the
subsequent
debate
in
the
referendum
and
very
successful.
It
was
indeed
the
referendum
followed
closely
the
recommendations
of
the
assembly,
but
more
to
the
point,
participants
said
that
it
made
them
consider
the
impacts
of
a
proposal
in
ways.
F
They
would
never
considered
before
that's
important
to
rely
on
the
deep
reflections
of
fellow
citizens
who
come
without
the
baggage
that
every
single
one
of
us
here,
as
a
party
politician
inevitably
has
it,
brings
honesty
and
openness
to
the
deliberative
process
and
I.
Congratulate
our
friends
in
Ireland,
showing
us
the
way
to
reignite
thoughtful
dialogue,
and
it's
worth
just
briefly
mentioning
this
issue
of
brexit
itself.
F
If
we
had
in
essence
three
years
ago,
taken
forward
the
post,
2016
referendum
deliberations
via
a
citizen's
assembly,
I
think
we
would
have
not
got
ourselves
tied
into
the
cool
this
act
that
was
laid
down
by
the
Prime
Minister
in
January
2017,
which
is
contributed
to
the
failure
of
the
political
system
to
come
to
any
meaningful
conclusion:
a
presiding
officer.
This
is
not
really
a
debate
about
the
government,
the
proposals
from
the
government
foreign
assembly,
it's
actually
about
the
credibility
of
David
Marcin,
a
man
I've
often
disagreed
with,
but
I
continue
to
respect.
L
Thank
You
presiding
officer
this
afternoon
does
give
us
an
opportunity
to
consider
the
citizens
assembly
in
more
detail
for
the
publication
of
re
met
and
all
guests
and
the
memorandum
for
understanding
which
was
published
earlier
this
week.
There
has
been
limited
opportunity
for
parliamentary
scrutiny
of
the
proposal,
and
this
afternoon
gives
some
opportunity
to
explore
the
issues
involved
in
establishing
a
citizens
assembly,
as
others
have
said,
when
the
first
Minister
a
nice,
the
citizens
assembly,
Scottish
Labour,
gave
a
cautious
welcome
to
the
news.
L
It
is
regrettable
that
the
Scottish
government
did
not
bring
the
proposal
an
earlier
stage
to
Parliament
in
Ireland
cross-party
consensus
was
achieved
through
parliamentary
scrutiny,
and
the
ability
to
consider
anime
in
the
d-mat
I
have
previously
highlighted
concerns
regarding
the
nature
of
the
announcement
as
part
of
wider
plans
to
pursue
a
second
independence
referendum,
which
risks
faith
and
the
process.
Well,
the
memorandum
that
was
published
this
week
emphasizes
the
Independence
of
the
assembly.
It
remains
to
be
seen
whether
or
not
the
government's
ambition
for
another
referendum
is
the
intended
purpose
of
the
assembly.
L
Do
I
hear
the
government's
assurances
on
this
this
afternoon?
The
inclusion
and
the
remit
of
a
specific
rule
regarding
the
options
for
constitutional
reform
does
little
to
dispel
these
concerns,
and
there
is
a
job
of
work
for
the
Assembly
to
consider
how
they
will
approach
this
discussion
and
what
direction
this
will
lead
them.
We
are
at
the
stage
of
handing
over
this
process
to
the
citizens
assembly,
and
it
must
be
for
them
to
set
their
own
agenda.
L
Deliberative
democracy
can't
be
a
valuable
approach
to
questions
which
face
a
society
and
its
future.
It
can
be
used
to
engage
citizens
and
what
is
seemingly
intractable
problems
are
questions
of
the
potential
to
cause
division
and
communities
involving
the
public
more
directly
in
the
democratic
process
is
something
we
should
all
support.
L
As
parliamentarians,
we
have
seen
examples
of
such
as
the
same
place
and
Poland
Canada,
Ireland
and
Australia,
providing
opportunities
for
participatory
democracy
and
addressing
a
range
of
issues
from
reducing
fossil
fuel,
used
to
the
reform
of
the
abortion
law,
providing
a
forum,
a
structure
and
time
for
members
of
the
public
to
hear
evidence
to
challenge
what
is
pit
before
them
and
to
question
experts.
These
assemblies
can
also
contribute
to
wider
knowledge
and
understanding.
If
engagement
was
the
broader
population
is
secured.
L
Am
I
attended
the
sessions
involving
representatives
from
Ireland
and
I,
like
the
cabinet
secretary,
for
an
engine
that
we
heard
about
their
experiences,
and
we
can
learn
a
lot
from
those
countries
that
already
been
through
the
process
and
setting
up
at
assembly?
We
must
provide
an
opportunity
for
assembly
members,
as
representatives
of
the
wider
population,
to
determine
which
area
they
want
to
focus
on
and
well
the
rement
that
was
published
last
month
as
broad
as
for
the
assembly
to
decide
where
they
rush
to
focus
so
moving
on
to
consider
the
progress
of
the
work.
L
Well,
the
recent
publication
of
Vemma
is
a
welcome
step
towards
the
first
meeting
in
late
October.
I
know
that
the
citizens
assembly
website
information
still
indicates
some
areas
and
which
decisions
are
yet
to
be
made
among.
These
are
critical
decisions
on
the
base
way
to
involve
the
wider
public
in
the
process
and
have
exactly
the
assembly
will
operate,
including
like
streaming
of
content
beyond
deliberate
obsessions.
L
Recruitment
of
100-plus
members
is
underway,
but
it
is
far
from
a
straightforward
task
and
I
understand
and
Ireland.
The
percentage
that
I
agreed
to
take
part
was
quite
small
and
it
was
quite
an
onerous
and
task.
There
are
also
some
issues
with
retention
as
the
model
and
Ireland
ruled
out
aside
from
balancing
the
membership
and
laying
with
the
broader
population.
L
Those
taking
part
need
to
be
convinced
of
the
argument
that
providing
their
time
and
participation
over
a
number
of
weeks
as
a
worthwhile
task
for
them
and
the
contribution
that
they
can
make
to
society
and
I
have
another
number
of
other
questions.
The
cabinet
secretary
may
wish
to
address,
and
can
the
cabinet's
actually
give
advice
on
what
assurances
I've
been
provided
to
members
of
the
public
that
their
privacy
will
be
safeguarded
if
they
take
part
in
the
assembly
and
has
a
decision
been
made
about
what
information
about
participants
will
be
made?
L
We
also
need
to
think
about
potential
for
harassment
or
abuse
of
participants
and
identified,
and
they
need
to
support
them
more
generally,
through
the
period
of
meetings
and
beyond.
So
can
I
ask
what
measures
have
been
put
in
place
to
support
these
members
through
the
process
and
terms
of
past
Rokia,
as
others
have
recognized.
We
do
live
in
a
time
where
heightened
emotions
are
too
often
linked
to
political
and
social
debate.
We
need
to
ensure
that
they
assembly
is
respectful
and
that
we,
as
a
society,
respect
the
role
that
they
are
carrying
out.
L
M
You
I
wanted
to
concentrate
my
remarks
today
on
the
impartial
nature
of
the
citizens
assembly
and,
in
particular,
the
structures
underpinning
it
are
designed
to
deliver
that
impartiality.
First
and
most
importantly,
the
assembly
is
independent
of
government
and
it
will
set
its
own
agenda
within
its
remit,
and
leadership
will
set
the
tone
here
and
I
hope.
We
can
all
agree
that
the
conveners
are
both
impartial
and
respected.
M
In
terms
of
political
engagement,
I've
also
been
fortunate
to
engage
with
Co
convener
David
Martin,
who
has
given
evidence
to
the
culture,
tourism,
Europe
and
External
Affairs
Committee,
which
I
convene
and
my
airless
memory
of
David,
who
has
Scotland's
longest-serving
MEP,
was
back
in
the
1990s.
When
the
Herald
newspaper
gave
a
lot
of
space
to
his
promotion
of
the
Europe
of
the
region's,
then
an
idea
very
much
in
his
infancy
and
those
of
us
who
supported
independence
in
Europe
for
Scotland's.
At
that
time.
M
That
David
is
his
own
man
and
has
always
been
his
own
man,
and
it's
certainly
not
someone
who
could
ever
be
accused
of
being
told
what
to
do
by
the
SNP
David,
as
has
been
said,
was
Scottish
Labour
member
of
the
European
Parliament
for
35
years,
and
he's
the
parliaments,
formerly
the
parliaments,
longest-serving
vice-president
and,
of
course,
professor
of
public
policy.
At
the
University
of
Glasgow
were
very
lucky
to
have
both
David
and
Kate
in
these
roles,
and
I
would
hope
that
nobody
in
this
Parliament
would
ever
question
their
impartiality.
M
In
addition
to
these
conveners,
we
have
an
impartial
unarmed
line,
Secretariat
appointed
to
the
assembly
and
critically
the
Secretariat
will
be
located
outside
Scottish
government
officers
and
made
up
of
civil
servants
who
will
adhere
to
the
civil
service
court
and
take
the
direction
from
and
be
accountable
to,
the
impartial
conveners.
The
most
important
element
of
the
assembly
is
as
members
and
again,
the
focus
here
is
ensuring
that
they're,
completely
independent,
an
independent
contractor,
will
identify
participants
and
provide
the
secretariat
with
a
list
of
members
and
I.
M
M
According
to
the
vemma
of
the
assembly,
it
will
cause
decide
for
itself
which
challenges
that
wants
to
consider
examine
the
current
constitutional
arrangements
for
dealing
with
those
challenges
and
the
options
for
a
constitutional
reform
and
say
what
further
work
is
required
to
provide
the
information
that
would
allow
the
people
of
Scotland
to
make
an
informed
choice
about
the
future
of
the
country.
All
these
impartial
people,
the
members,
the
conveners,
the
Secretariat,
will
be
assisted
in
their
work
by
expert
groups
and
many
Lefroy.
M
The
chair
person
of
the
Irish
citizen
assembly
referenced
through
all
of
these
expert
groups
in
her
Michael
Whittle
sin
memorial
lecture
delivered
last
year
and
she
said
I
truly
believe
that
their
involvement,
the
expert
groups,
involvement
in
the
process
and
in
helping
myself
and
the
Secretariat
navigate
through
some
of
the
most
complex
and
challenging
issues
facing
Irish
society
is
one
of
the
most
noteworthy
features
of
this
process.
That
is,
the
collaboration
with
academia.
Professionals
and
administrators
is
something
which
is
of
benefit
to
the
whole
work
of
the
assembly.
M
Earlier
this
year,
Brown
said
they
offered
a
fresh
opportunity
to
invite
more
people
into
the
decision-making
process
and
a
more
structured
and
constructive
way.
So
my
message
to
those
who
oppose
the
motion
today
is
to
heed
the
words
of
Gordon
Brown,
abandon
your
cynicism
and
place
your
faith
in
the
impeccable
impartiality
of
the
assembly
and
it's
conveners.
Thank
you
very
much.
N
O
You
presiding
officer
and
following
on
from
Joe
McAlpin's,
measured
contribution
I
have
to
confess
that
I
am
a
cynic
in
general,
actually
and
I'm-
certainly
certainly
cynical
of
government
all
governments,
because
they
all
play
the
same
games
and
yeah
and-
and
you
have
to
when
you,
when
you
have
an
idea
like
setting
up
a
citizen's
assembly,
you
have
to
think
well
what
are
they
up
to?
But
you
don't
have
to
look
very
far
in
in
this
case,
because
we
know
what
they're
up
to
it's
in
the
remit.
O
When
I
was
a
counselor
for
10
years
and
seeing
seeing
the
way
councils
operated
that
wasn't
always
the
view
of
councils,
they,
you
know,
they
thought
they
knew
best
as
government's
often
think
they
know
best,
but
I.
Think
it's
a
good
thing.
If
we
ask
people
what
they
think,
what
I
think
is
a
shame
is
the
way
this
has
been
done
and
I
think
the
contributions
that
we've
heard
so
far
that
have
said
that
we
should
have
chosen
different
subjects.
To
start
this
off
would
have
been
a
much
better
idea.
O
There
are
see
issues
that
a
citizen's
assembly
should
be
looking
at
climate
changes.
One
Adam
Tompkins
mentioned
the
the
drug
crisis.
They
would
be
serious
issues
that
a
citizens
assembly
could
look
at
one
misconception
I
think
around
this
is
that
this
is
a
permanent
body.
It's
not
it's
it's,
for
it's
only
sitting
for
six
meetings,
it's
only
to
look
at
the
Constitution
and
then
it's
presumably
scrapped
it
reports
and
it's
scrapped
and
then
you've
set
something
else
up
if
you
want
to
do
another
citizen's
assembly
on
another
issue,
yes,
certainly
necessarily.
B
Be
the
case
it
could
be
certainly
true
that
different
membership
was
found,
but
if
proposals
come
forward
and
indicate
my
opening
speech,
there's
already
a
proposal
which
the
government
accepted
terms
of
climate
change,
there
may
be
other
proposals.
For
example,
there
are
difficult
social
issues
that
may
require
this
type
of
approach.
So
it's
not
necessarily
the
case,
but
I
see
the
members
enthusiasm
versus
assembly
beginning
to
get
going
so
I
would
welcome
his
contribution
on
ideas
for
what
crimson
mister.
O
Mister
Russell
knows
I'm
a
measured
man.
He
can
come
and
speak
to
me
anytime.
He
likes
I
am
concerned,
however,
appears
to
be
no
budget
for
this
particular
citizens.
Assembly
we've
heard
it
could
cost
up
to
half
a
million
pounds.
Mr.
Russell,
when
he
stood
up,
couldn't
confirm
that
can
tell
us
what
their
the
figure
was.
I
think
that
is,
that
is
a
matter
of
concern
that
should
come
through
the
Parliament.
At
some
point
it
should
be
budgeted
for
the
members
of
the
assembly
are
being
chosen
at
the
moment.
O
We've
heard
about
the
co,
convenors
I,
don't
I'm,
afraid
I,
don't
know
either
of
them,
so
I've
really
got
no
views
on
either
of
them,
but
I'm
sure
they'll
do
their
very
best
in
a
breezy
blog
signed,
Kate
and
David.
However,
they
said
we've
been
busy
getting
to
know
each
other
and
getting
up
to
speed
with
the
range
of
work
required
to
deliver
the
assembly.
There
can
be
few
rolls
more
worthwhile
than
helping
our
citizens
seek
common
ground.
O
Couldn't
really
disagree
with
that,
but
I
think
if
we
look
at
the
the
remit
of
this
particular
assembly
and
this
remit
is
set
by
government.
Mr.
Russell
touched
on
the
three
questions
that
the
Assembly
will
look
at
on.
One
brexit
is
mentioned,
education
isn't
mentioned,
health
isn't
mentioned
drugs
isn't
mentioned.
O
It
said
it's
there
to
consider,
examine
the
current
constitutional
arrangements
for
dealing
with
those
challenges
and
the
options
for
constitutional
reform,
and
within
this
remit
the
assembly
will
decide
its
own
agenda,
but
that
remit
is
set
by
government.
So
without
that
outside
of
that
it
can
do
nothing.
O
So
it
is-
and
it
does
appear
to
be
a
bit
of
a
stunt
at
the
moment
for
independence,
so
well,
I'm,
not
against
the
idea
of
a
citizen
assembly.
I
do
regret
the
way
this
has
been
set
up.
Willie
Rennie
asked
a
question
in
a
previous
session.
What
would
happen
if
this
particular
assembly
came
out
against
independence?
What
would
Mike
Russell
and
the
government
do?
What
would
their
response
be?
To
that?
We
haven't
had
an
answer
to
that.
Perhaps
when
the
cabinet
secretary
sums
up
well.
B
It
was
in
the
opening
speech.
All
the
recommendations
of
the
assembly
will
come
to
this
Parliament.
The
Parliament
will
vote
on
them.
As
the
Parliament
were
to
accept
those
recommendations.
The
government
would
bring
forward
recommendations.
It's
bound
to
do
so.
It
would
do
that,
no
matter
the
recommendations,
it
is
entirely
clear:
creep,
Simpson.
O
P
You
presiding
officer
this
week
in
UK
Parliament
has
been
shot
down
by
a
Tory
government
acceptable
time.
Their
actions
have
today
been
declared
illegal,
even
before
we
did
that
we
are
a
high
of
a
greatest
constitutional
crisis
faced
by
United
Kingdom
since
the
Irish
independence
a
hundred
years
ago,
the
move
was
most
reckless
and
sinister.
A
shutdown
of
democracy
was
taught
by
a
prime
minister
who
is
a
leader
of
a
party
which
does
not
command
a
majority
in
the
House
of
Commons,
and
he
was
installed
as
prime
minister
before
any
Democratic
Monday.
P
Meanwhile,
in
Scotland
we
were
busy
finding
ways
of
improving
our
democracy
and
welcome
a
first
meeting
of
a
new
citizens,
the
same
way
of
Scotland,
which
will
be
held
next
month.
Key
features
of
assembly
are
independence
from
government
transparency,
inclusion
access,
bounds,
cumulative
learning
and
old
mindedness.
To
me,
all
these
principles
are
admirable.
Bio,
like
to
dwell
on
the
final
one
woke
mindedness
assembly
is
a
forum
for
open
minded.
P
Deliberation
between
participants
ensure
no
public
sees
as
a
genuine
process
of
inquiry
and
to
help
ensure
by
our
seasonal
minded
response
from
this
Parliament
and
the
Scottish
government.
That
statement
was
taken
from
Assembly's
own
mission
statement.
It
emphasizes
the
assembly
separate
identity
and
its
independence
from
Parliament
and
government
are
certain
the
same.
But
it's
not
a
new
concept
sentence
assemblies
have
been
set
up
in
many
other
countries,
I
went
close
to
home
and
British
Columbia
or
never
side
the
world,
to
name
but
two.
P
It
means
we
are
looking
for
best
practice
in
other
parts
of
the
world
and
then
important
and
adopting
it
to
use
in
our
own
political
system.
We
are
outward
looking.
Transparency
is
another
key
feature
of
this
assembly,
but
what
more
has
been
in
practice?
Well,
we've
applied
to
whole
levels
of
assembly
has
been
applied
to
a
selection
of
assembly
members.
100
100
members
from
all
across
Scotland
have
been
randomly
selected
to
represent
representative
of
Arab
population
in
terms
of
an
age,
gender,
educational
qualifications,
ethnic
group,
geography
and
political
attitudes.
P
Transparency
will
apply
to
its
proceedings
and
will
be
live-streamed,
so
we
can
all
serve
for
herself
if
you
wish.
No
thank
you
trance
and
translate
will
be
important
element
and
demonstrating
the
same
with
independence
from
Department
and
from
the
Scottish
government
is
vital
to
ascend
business
credibility
for
independence,
to
be
clear
for
all
to
see
and
I
strongly
believe.
A
critics
and
cynics
will
be
excited
that
a
prospect
of
finding
reasons
did
miss
dismiss
Assembly's
workings
and
outcomes
No.
Thank
you.
Something
new
and
progressive,
which
is
transparent
and
independent.
Not
the
popular
in
some
quarters.
P
I
was
delighted
to
see
former
no
thank
you.
I
was
delighted
to
see
former
MEP
David
Martin
appointed
as
one
of
Assembly
convenors
I,
hope
his
knowledge
of
political
institutions
in
the
UK
and
that
the
EU
level
and
other
EU
member
states
will
turn
out
to
be
a
huge
asset
to
workings
of
assembly.
The
appointment
of
someone
from
outside
for
politics
came
impressed
as
other
convener.
Why
hope
create
a
bounce
of
approach
of
expertise
and
experience
between
the
same
with
two
convenors
assemblies?
Independence
is
restrained
and
its
own
medal.
P
Anthem
of
understanding
with
the
Scottish
government,
so
as
conveners
and
members
will
be
confident
of
a
freedom
to
follow
their
own
path
with
an
Assemblies
terms
of
Rema.
Needless
to
say,
our
exercise
in
widen
democracy
has
not
been
welcomed
by
all
on
these
chambers.
That
brings
me
back
to
you
kick
recent
events
at
UK
Parliament.
One
reason:
our
UK
isn't
such
a
current
mess,
there's
a
choice
of
one
particular
party
to
pursue
its
own
party
interests
or
verb
exit
when
the
interest
is
directly
opposite
to
national
interests.
P
At
that
party
chosen
an
inclusive
approach
to
all
breaks
issues
within
the
national
interest.
First,
our
current
political
landscape
would
be
totally
different.
In
conclusion,
presiding
officer
inclusion
is
one
of
the
key
features
of
a
new
assembly.
All
the
political
parties
members
represented
in
this
Parliament
will
be
supporters
amongst
the
members
of
assembly.
So
a
fad
in
mind.
I
would
urge
everyone
in
the
chamber
to
be
forward-thinking
and
embrace
opportunities
offered
by
citizens.
The
same
way.
E
He
sees
the
greater
good
that
can
come
from
the
citizens
assembly
and
he
is
embarrassed
in
fact
ashamed
that
the
party
that
he
has
supported
that
has
advanced
independence
could
treat
this
precious.
This
precious
instrument
in
such
a
manner
and
I
think
that
is
the
fundamental
problem
that
we
have
with
the
approach
of
the
SNP
government.
I.
Think
it's
also
unfortunate
today
that
there's
been
a
personalization
of
the
debate,
both
Mike
Russell
and
Bruce
Crawford
sought
to
undermine
Joanna
cherry
and
her
role
in
this
debate.
E
I
feel
the
need
to
stand
up
for
Joanna
cherry
if
they
would
stand
up
for
I.
Think
it's
upon
us
to
stand
up,
but
she
brought
honesty.
She
brought
integrity
to
this
debate
by
revealing
the
true
purpose
of
the
citizens
assembly,
which
was
to
advance
a
debate
under
Shaitan.
Again,
I
will
stand
up
for
Joanna
cherry
she's
done
a
great
service
to
this
country
and
I
think
we
are
a
day
of
graduating.
E
I
think
it's
also
ridiculous
to
suggest
that
those
who
criticize
the
way
that
the
SNP
has
gone
about
the
citizens
assembly
is
somehow
under
Maine
and
David
Martin.
That
is
an
atrocious.
We
two
approaches
to
be,
and
in
fact
it
shows
how
weak
the
case
is
that
the
SNP
has
developed
that
they
have
sought
to
claim
that
somehow
I
personally
am
attacking
David
Martin.
Personally,
that
is
not
the
case.
E
I
know
not
just
know
the
gentleman
who's
trying
to
make
an
intervention
was
particularly
unpleasant
in
his
approach
to
this
to
be
at
this
afternoon
by
claiming
that
I
was
attacking
David
Martin
in
no
way
whatsoever.
Well,
any
of
us
seeking
to
do
that,
and
that
is
the
unfortunate
bit
of
this
debate,
because
because
their
argument-
because
their
argument
is
so
weak
because
their
argument
is
so
weak-
they
have
sought
to
personalize
it
and
I
think
we
should
have
nothing
to
do
with
that
approach.
E
Alec
Crowley
has
agreed
that
Joanna
cherry
has
muddied
the
water
as
he
put
it,
but
then
he
seems
to
have
ignored
the
evidence
that
she
has
provided,
which
is
that
the
SNP
are
seeking
to
use
this.
Just
the
advanced
independence
to
be
and
I
hope,
I
hope
he
comes
to
see
that
that
is
the
case,
because
we
have
heard
on
numerous
occasions
that
the
SNP
try
this
trick
every
single
time.
E
What's
wrong
with
a
debate
what's
wrong
with
having
another
discussion,
a
national
conversation
see
right
across
the
country
because
of
the
taxpayer
paying
for
SNP
ministers
to
be
calls
out
and
every
part
of
the
country,
so
we
can
have
another
to
be
about
independence.
That
was
the
first
attempt
at
trying
to
engineer
this
to
be
right
back
when
they
gained
power
in
2007,
and
we
found
Aden
westerby's
ever
since.
Ever
since
we
had
the
three
year-long
independence
to
being
waste,
they
lost.
E
We
had
the
white
paper
we
had
to
be
about
the
legislation
for
the
referendum
provide.
Subsequently,
we've
had
Andrew
Wilson's
report
into
the
economic
impact
on
the
future,
Scotland
and
independence.
We
are
encouraged
to
participate
in
all
of
these
debates.
It's
endless
and
you
can
therefore
forgive
us
for
being
a
wee
bit
bored
for
wanting
to
move
on,
to
try
talk
about
something
else.
Perhaps
the
bricks
that
crisis,
for
instance.
Maybe
we
could
try
and
deal
with
that
problem,
no
I'm
not
going
to
take
an
intervention.
E
So
therefore
I
think
it's
deeply
regrettable
that
the
principle,
the
deeply
held
principle
by
many
that
sit-ins
assembly
can
do
great
things.
It's
been
undermined,
T
because
it
can't
do
good.
If
you
look
at
some
of
the
proposals
that
have
come
forward
today
alone,
there's
been
the
talk
about
having
I
says
assembly
on
drug
deaths,
I
think
that
would
be
particularly
valid
to
have
that.
To
beat
I
think
we
could
bring
together
people
from
all
parts
of
society
to
have
that
discussion.
E
The
one
I
proposed
earlier
on
round
about
climate
change,
trying
to
get
people
to
understand
the
need
for
personal
behavioural
change
in
order
to
meet
our
challenges
on
the
climate,
perhaps
on
closing
the
attainment
gap.
That
might
be
a
useful
thing
to
have
a
discussion
about
who
can
involve
parents
and
pupils
people
right
across
societies,
so
we
can
close
that
attainment
gap
there
simply
government
afield
so
fast,
and
maybe
it's
time
for
somebody
else
to
try
and
come
up
with
some
ideas
and,
of
course,
the
social
care
challenge.
Massive
challenges
are
in
social
care.
E
Let's
get
people
involved
in
that
discussion.
All
of
those
things
become
we
before
yet
another
boring
discussion
about
independence,
because
that's
all
that
the
SNP
seemed
to
be
interested
normal
I'm.
In
my
final
few
seconds,
the
Citizen
assembly
was
announced
by
the
First
Minister
as
part
of
a
package
of
measures
to
achieve
independence.
That
is
without
doubt
the
assembly,
the
cross
party
talks
and
the
unstoppable
legislation
on
another
referendum.
E
Mike
Russell
even
managed
to
keep
a
straight
face
when
it
would
be
free
from
vested
interests,
even
though
it
only
exists
as
part
of
the
independence
package.
The
Minister
set
up
the
assembly
recruited,
the
conveners,
allowed
them
to
make
speeches
on
the
assembly
designed
arena
and
then
said
it
was
up
to
the
assembly
to
decide
for
itself
what
it
wanted
to
do.
No,
it's
not
the
first
manners.
Her
first
minister
has
never
said
full
steam
ahead
for
independence,
subject
to
the
conclusions
of
the
citizens.
G
Thank
you,
Zaidan
officer
this
to
be
has
been
interesting,
but
and
and
many
B's
disappointing,
but
but
reflects.
Perhaps
we
are
in
Scotland,
because
anybody
has
been
lovin
in
Scotland.
These
last
five
years
could
not
deny
that
the
question
the
Constitution
overlapped
is
all
areas
a
policy
within
Scotland.
Then
we
do
need
to
find
our
way
forward.
A
modernity
be
asking
questions
about
the
base
we
forward
and
what
which
say
is
labor
is
clear
that
we
are
taking
the
government
at
face
value.
We
are
engaging
in
this
process.
G
Do
you
think
we
need
to
look
at
the
way
we
move
forward
and
be
positive?
The
concerns
be
well
here,
any
and
and
and
the
the
professor
Tompkins
around
and
dependence
I
would
have
to
say
to
you
that
the
greatest
threat
to
the
future
in
the
United
Kingdom
does
not
lie
and
the
Scottish
sets
in
the
same
way.
The
greatest
threat
right
now
to
the
future.
G
Related
Kingdom
lies
with
the
conservative
and
repartee
and
Boris
Johnson
that
that
that
safar,
even
even
his
brother
Joe
Johnson,
resigned
for
his
government,
saying
that
he
had
to
choose
between
family
loyalty
and
what's
best
and
what's
right
for
the
country.
So
you
know
the
other
asset
since
the
same
way
you
can
play
over
that's
right.
So
if
you
really
are
interested
in
the
future
a
knighted
Kingdom,
then
you
really
need
to
start
to
stand
up
to
Boris
Johnson
and
tell
him
that
he's
not
on
that
he's
damaging
the
United
Kingdom
yeah.
My.
C
G
Point
the
the
Stevenson
made
I
think
was
a
bit
point
really
talked
about
having
taking
the
risk
and
the
confidence
that
he
hadn't
has
arguments
I'm,
very
confident
in
the
arguments
of
you
or
arguable.
The
future
is
caught
when
done
I'm,
very
confident
that
the
economic
case
for
independence
just
does
not
stack
up
and
any
shape
form
I'm,
confident
that
we
can
take
forward
the
arguments
and
when
those
arguments
just
is
just
confident
and
the
arguments
that
he
has
but
I
would
say.
G
That's
the
a
don't
confuse
that
with
arguing
for
the
status
quo,
because
right
now,
Scotland
every
region,
a
nation
of
the
United
Kingdom,
has
been
laid
down
by
Westminster
by
the
torreón
breaks
apart.
They
who
have
become
obsessed
obsessed
worth
break
sir
I'm,
confident
and
my
arguments.
If
you
were
confident
in
us,
perhaps
you
would
come
to
this
assembly
and
what
worth
the
other
part
is
to
find
the
best
way
forward
for
Scotland
the
forum
remain,
and
reform
and
Europe
remain,
and
reform
in
the
United
Kingdom
has
to
be
has
to
be
the
way
forward.
F
The
member
remember
that
in
2011
the
Liberal
it's
caused
us
to
have
a
referendum
on
proportional
elections.
Only
1002
440
areas
voted
in
favor,
but
Vince
Cable
in
July.
This
year
says
we
should
have
a
citizen's
assembly.
The
issue
is
not
caused
by
that
referendum.
Why
should
any
other
be
closed?
Alec,
Torelli,
boss,.
G
Also
remember
in
2010
well
here
a
nice
Liberal
Democrats
that
a
deal
with
the
Tories
and
as
a
result,
what
did
we
get
welfare
reform
that
has
created
widespread
poverty
across
Scotland
and
the
United
Kingdom?
If
you
want
to
ask
why
people
went
and
voted
for
breaks,
look
at
the
levels
of
poverty
that
was
created
by
Allah
bro,
Tory
government
and
Westminster,
the
bedroom
parks,
I
thought,
attacks,
attacks
or
never
seen
before.
So
so.
G
I
really
think
that
that
well,
he
might
be
trying
to
to
appeal
to
a
certain
group
of
people
and
Scotland,
but
the
reality,
as
your
party
and
the
Tories
have
created
the
situation
that
we
find
ourselves
on
and
the
levels
of
poverty
that
are
unacceptable.
A
number
of
people
have
mentioned
about
the
the
the
the
co
conveners
I,
don't
know
key
one
place,
but
she
certainly
has
an
impressive
CV
and
David
Martin
I
know
very
well.
N
Q
Thank
You,
presiding
officer
and
I
welcome
the
opportunity
to
contribute
to
this
debate
when
the
cabinet
secretary
nounce,
the
creation
of
the
citizens
assembly
back
in
June,
my
colleague,
Adam
Tompkins,
said
that
there
is
a
role
for
citizens
assemblies,
particularly
when
it
comes
to
aspects
of
public
policy
that
a
parliamentary
democracy
has
failed
or
struggling
to
address
and
resolve,
and
the
cabinet's
actually
himself
said
the
democracy
does
not
stand
still
and
we
have
to
keep
innovating
in
order
to
keep
moving.
But
I
couldn't
agree
more
with
both
of
those
points.
Q
They're
valid
and
substantial
and
I
concur
with
many
of
the
sentiments
made
by
others
across
the
chamber
who
have
spoken
about
examples
of
citizens,
assemblies
elsewhere,
most
notably
in
Ireland,
which
have
been
real
drivers
behind
significant
social
change.
The
Scottish
Conservatives
are
by
no
means
against
both
the
premise
and
the
principle
behind
such
institutions
being
created
and
the
role
they
may
have
in
using
a
unique
model
of
public
discourse
to
drive
reform.
Q
We
fully
support
local
democracy
and
evolving
power
from
this
place
to
more
local
democratic
bodies
and
I'm
sure
that
both
David
Martin
and
Kate
whimpers,
the
Kirk
of
Venus
I,
don't
know
them
personally,
but
they
seem
to
enjoy
respect
across
the
political
spectrum
will
work
diligently
alongside
a
committed
group
of
representatives
from
across
the
Scottish
society.
It's
not
the
principle.
We
have
Jet's
you
but
the
process,
because
it
has
been
abundantly
clear
from
the
outset
that
the
manner
in
which
the
government
has
proceeded
has
been
short-sighted,
to
say
the
least.
Q
Despite
warm
words
from
the
cabinet
secretary,
there
is
a
justify
suspicion
that
the
Assembly's
creation
has
been
fundamentally
designed
to
do.
One
thing
which
is
to
further
the
independence
agenda
and
when
Joanna
Terry
calls
it
the
perfect
way,
the
perfect
way
to
advance
independence.
Then
it
was
always
always
going
to
be
a
tough
sell
to
the
Scottish
public
as
a
fair
and
balanced
forum
to
lead
a
conversation
about
Scotland's
future
and
earlier
in
the
year
when
he
announced
the
creation
of
the
assembly.
Q
The
cabinet
secretary
preached
consensus
amongst
political
power
when
it
came
to
such
assemblies,
but
he
also
mentioned
brexit
nine
times
and
independence
twice
in
that
statement,
as
well
as
being
critical
of
the
UK
government.
There
was
a
hint
of
it
again
today
and
the
assembly
was
announced
alongside
the
referendum
legislation
and
the
cross-party
talks,
and
therein
lies
the
problem
because
even
at
its
birth,
this
has
proved
to
be
a
partisan,
endeavor
and
David
Martin
was
right.
He
called
this
a
mistake,
throwing
the
three
things
together
created
suspicion.
Q
Suspicion
is
his
word,
no
one
Minds
the
rough-and-tumble
of
party
politics
in
this
place.
Of
course
not,
but
it
was
really
unwise,
in
my
view,
in
our
view,
to
launch
this
project
in
such
a
context,
you
cannot
preach
consensus.
On
the
one
hand,
at
the
same
time,
push
a
deeply
divisive
policy
on
the
other.
Can
I
move
on
to
discuss
the
remit
of
the
assembly
which
the
government
has
published
my
own
disappointment
centers,
not
on
what
is
included,
but
what
is
emitted?
Q
There's
no
mention
of
how
we
should
improve
Scotland
schools,
no
mention
of
how
we
should
reform
our
NHS
for
the
long
term.
No
mention
of
how
invest
in
infrastructure.
Other
msps
have
raised
a
number
of
different
issues
that
could
have
been
addressed
by
the
citizens.
Assembly
will
hear
any
raise
the
climate
emergency,
but
what
about
economic
regeneration?
We
know,
for
example,
that
the
UK
economy
is
expected
to
grow
faster
than
the
Scottish
economy
over
the
next
four
years.
It
would
have
been
intriguing
to
hear
views
about
that.
K
I'm
very
grateful
for
the
member
giving
way-
and
we
just
know
that
the
Faust
aspect
to
the
Rima
is
what
kind
of
country
are
we
seeking
to
build,
which
is
very
broad.
But
the
member
suggests
how
that
particular
remap
precludes
a
discussion
of
any
of
the
domestic
or
blatant
bottle
issues
that
he
to
Donald.
Q
Is
broad
III
think
the
remit
has
a
narrow
focus
and
there
are
many
people,
both
in
and
more
importantly,
outside
this
chamber,
who
do
need
convincing
that
it
will
be
more
than
just
a
talking
shop
for
constitutional
change.
The
presiding
officer
in
summing
up
I
want
to
turn
to
a
few
of
the
remarks
that
colleagues
across
this
chamber
have
made
during
this
debate:
Adam
Tompkins
and
Graham
Simpson.
We
were
right
to
say
that
we
should
have
started
off
the
perhaps
different
topics.
Q
I
want
to
concentrate
on
something
that
Angela
constant
said,
because
she
was
right,
in
my
view,
to
say
that
this
Parliament
is
lacking
in
diversity
and
that
there
are
voices
in
Scotland
which
we
do
not
hear
and
which
need
to
be
heard
and
I
hope
that
citizens
assembly
achieves
one
thing
that
it
reaches.
Those
people
and
I
fully
accept
what
she
said.
To
conclude
our
view,
presiding
officer,
is
that
this
can
be
a
worthwhile
exercise,
but
we
remain
concerned
that
it
has
been
tainted
from
the
beginning.
I
hope
I
am
proved
wrong.
Q
I
hope
this
assembly
does
eventually
tackle
some
of
the
day-to-day
issues
that
we
that
I've
spoken
about.
We
can
all
agree
that
it's
time
to
remove
some
of
the
poisons
some
of
the
vitriol
that
affects
our
politics.
A
citizen's
assembly
would
have
been
the
ideal
way
to
do
this,
but
when
a
senior
SNP
figure
cause
such
your
body
the
perfect
way
to
advance
the
independence
agenda,
then
how
can
we
approach
this
consensually
and,
more
importantly,
how
can
it
have
a
transformational
impact
on
public
policy?
Thank
you.
B
Presiding
officer
before
I,
come
to
the
substance
of
this
debate,
could
I
just
correct
a
misapprehension
that
appears
to
have
arisen.
A
number
of
members
have
referenced
Ireland
and
have
referenced
the
constitutional,
the
citizens
Assembly
in
Ireland,
but
this
assembly
in
Ireland,
which
dealt
with
amongst
other
issues.
The
abortion
issue
that
did
deal
with
other
issues
was
the
second
deliberative
democracy,
innovation
in
Ireland,
the
first
one
the
Constitutional
Convention
took
for
a
number
of
years
to
set
up.
B
It
was
in
the
end
passed
by
the
Doyle
without
dissent,
but
it
took
a
long
time
to
get
to
that
position.
So
the
argument
that
says
there
was
some
outpouring
of
agreement
at
the
very
beginning
simply
isn't
true.
Nor
is
the
fact
that
the
first
of
those
bodies
looked
solely
at
social
issues.
In
fact,
if
you
look
up
the
remit
of
the
first
Constitutional
Convention,
that
is,
this
is
assembly,
you
discover
number
one
was
reducing
the
presidential
term
of
office
number
two
was
reducing
the
voting
age.
B
Number
three
was
the
rot
review
of
the
Doyle
electoral
system.
Number
four
was
giving
residents
outside
the
state
the
right
to
vote.
So
the
first
step
in
Ireland
in
these
matters
were
constitutional
issues
which
were
not
able
to
be
resolved
by
the
Doyle
itself,
so
I
think
far
from
departing
from
what
we
are
told
is
the
Irish
model,
we're
actually
being
remarkably
consistent
with
the
Irish
model
and
I
think
that
should
be
borne
in
mind,
particularly
when
we
consider
future
assemblies
because
I
take
it
I
take
at
face
value.
B
The
members
have
said
that
they
want
to
have
future
assemblies.
Only
one
party
has
come
up
with
a
proposal
for
a
future
assembly
and
I'll
come
to
that
at
the
moment.
But
if
there
are
to
be
future
assemblies,
we
might
learn
from
that
model
too,
though
we
need
to
move
on
and
the
abortion
one
was
there
also
a
constitutional
issue,
because
it
was
addressing
the
constitutional
ban
on
abortion.
B
So
I
think
no
members
who
talk
about
social
policy
who
talk
about
using
this
in
a
certain
way
need
to
focus
on
that
model
which
I'll
come
to
Claire
Baker's
point.
In
a
moment.
You
know
we
brought
over
from
Ireland
people
with
experience
of
this.
To
have
that
conversation.
Some
of
those
who've
been
most
critical,
did
not
take
part
in
those
discussions,
but
look
at
the
actual
history
don't
make
it
up
now.
There's
two
positions
you
could
take
on
this
afternoon's
debate,
presiding
officer.
One
would
be
that
frankly,
it
is
a
pessimistic
view.
B
You
would
come
away
deeply
depressed
at
how
close
some
minds
are
and
how
deep
the
divisions
are,
which
are
impervious
to
argument
or
reason,
but
you
could
come
away
with
a
more
optimistic
view
which
says
an
inertial
effect.
What
this
debate
has
proved
is
that
we
need
not
just
a
citizen's
assembly,
but
this
assembly
as
more
than
ever,
because
we
need
to
find
a
way
to
debate
these
major
issues
without
the
type
of
rhetoric
and
division
that
we
have
heard
this
afternoon.
B
Let
me
go
back
to
the
issues
within
the
remand,
because
these
are
the
issues
that
we're
trying
to
look
at.
What
kind
of
country
are
we
seeking
how
best
we
can
overcome
the
challenges
that
Scotland
and
the
world
face
in
the
21st
century,
including
those
arising
from
brexit,
and
what
further
work
should
be
carried
out
to
give
us
the
information
we
need
to
make
the
informed
choices?
It
seems
to
me
that
if
you
were
to
perhaps
just
step
back
and
read
the
official
report
of
this
tomorrow,
the
next
day
you
might
come
to
the
conclusion.
B
O
Actually,
for
taking
the
intervention,
the
problem
with
all
that
is,
if
you
actually
look
at
what
the
remit
in
terms
of
reference
says,
says:
citizens
Assembly
of
Scotland
Scotland's,
constitutional
future.
It's
not
dealing
with
wider
issues
like
education,
health,
anything
anything
else.
It's
about
the
Constitution
Cabrio
signature.
B
Simpson
I'm
happy
to
do
so
again
and
I
would
suggest,
because
I
know
he's
a
man
of
open
mind
and
clearly
he
was
edging
towards
support
for
this
as
assembly.
He
should
go
and
talk
to
the
co
convenience.
He
should
talk
to
the
people
who
are
involved
in
this.
You
will
see
that
they
are
going
to
interpret
this
I
understand
in
a
very
wide
way.
Indeed.
B
Indeed,
the
remit
in
the
development
and
discussion
with
the
conveners,
because
it
has
been
developed
and
discussed
with
the
conveners,
gives
exactly
that
flexibility.
So
we
have
an
opportunity
here
to
move
forward
with
something
new
and
innovative
and
I
think
the
debate
tells
us
that
there
are
not
entirely
closed
minds.
Minds
like
mr.
B
Simpsons,
which
is
at
least
partially
open
to
persuasion
and
I,
have
to
say
that
you
know
I
think
those
we
need
to
be
able
to
persuade
people
that
there
is
such
an
opportunity
and
I
want
to
persuade
people
that
there
is
such
an
opportunity
and
Alec
Rowley
asked
me
to
address
some
key
issues
in
so
doing,
and
I
want
to
do
so
presiding
officer.
This
is
an
assembly
will
be
independent.
I
have
gone
through
in
great
detail
why
that
is
so,
but
I
confirm
it
yet
again.
B
Here
it
has
a
published
and
clear
remit
which
it
is
perfectly
possible
and
desirable
for
those
who
are
running
the
assembly
to
interpret
it
will
be
fully
transparent.
I
want
to
come
on
to
some
of
the
issues
that
Claire
Baker
raised
in
a
minute.
It
sets
his
own
work
plan
and
agenda.
There
is
a
commitment
for
it
to
report,
to
the
people
of
Scotland,
to
this
Parliament
of
the
government
and
for
those
recommendations
to
be
taken
forward,
and
it
is
established
as
an
act
of
good
faith
and
I
am
grateful
for
the
position
that
mr.
B
Riley
has
taken
in
this,
because
I
want
him
at
the
conclusion
is
this
to
be
able
to
say
that
the
good
faith
that
we
showed
was
good
faith?
Mr.
Riley
and
I
have
worked
opposite
each
other
for
many
years,
I,
don't
think.
We've
ever
deliberately
told
each
other.
A
falsehood.
I
want
to
make
sure
that
that
is
provable
and
proved
by
the
actions
of
the
assembly,
but
it
is
up
to
the
assembly
to
do
so
and
if
I
can
prove
that
to
the
mr.
B
Riley
and
his
party
I
hope
in
time,
I
might
prove
it
to
the
conservative
benches,
some
more
than
others
I
have
to
say,
but
there
was
a
willingness.
I
heard
from
the
conservative
benches
to
be
persuaded
that
the
citizens
assembly
was
he
and
perhaps
this
citizens
assembly
might
surprise
him.
I
think
it
was
a
point
that
Mr
Cameron
made
towards
the
end.
He
would
like
to
be
persuaded
well.
B
I
would
like
him
to
be
persuaded
and
therefore
I
want
to
make
sure
that
this
fully
independent
scissors
assembly
is
able
to
persuade
him
and
I
would
encourage
members
to
go
and
speak
to
the
conveners.
They
are
open
to
that.
They
want
to
do
so
and
in
that
regard,
the
points
that
Claire
Baker
raised
are
very
important.
There
are
a
whole
range
of
points
and
very
sensible
and
important
points
that
she
raised.
Issues
such
as
your,
whether
or
not
these
would
be
taxed
or
treated
as
difficult.
B
The
payments
for
benefits
issues
of
a
social
media
issues
of
press
I
think
it
is
really
important,
as
I
discussed
by
the
conveners
with
you
and
with
others.
They
are
the
people
who
will
answer
them.
There's
very
good
examples
in
Ireland
to
follow,
for
example,
in
social
media.
Those
who
were
part
of
the
Sims
Assembly
could
not
use
social
media.
B
While
a
topic
was
under
discussion,
they
were
free
to
do
so
afterwards,
but
not
while
the
topic
was
under
discussion,
but
all
the
deliberative
sessions
were
filmed,
but
not
the
private
sessions
of
discussion,
but
those
who
did
not
wish
to
be
filmed
were
not
put
in
a
position
to
be
filmed.
So
there
ought
there's
lots
of
good
practice,
but
I
think
it's
important
that
that
discussion
takes
place
with
the
conveners
and
every
party
has
that
opportunity.
B
It
was
mentioned
that
there
will
be
an
invitation
as
I
understand
it,
to
parties
to
nominate
somebody
for
a
politic
political
panel,
though
that
panel
will
be
available
to
the
assembly,
but
at
the
assemblies
which
not
at
the
politicians,
wish
to
say
what
their
position
is
on
a
whole
range
of
issues,
and
it
is
important.
Those
are
heart.
It
is
important
that
the
views
of
the
Conservatives
and
the
Liberal
Democrats
and
others
are
hurt
in
that
politicians
panel
and
available
to
the
citizens
assembly.
Yes,
of
course,.
H
Patrick
Harvie
I'm
grateful
the
Minister
did
say
that
he
would
return
to
the
proposal
from
the
Greens
before
his
speech
in
the
last
couple
of
minutes.
I
wonder
if
he
can
put
on
record
whether
the
Scottish
government
agrees
that
that
should
be
mandated
by
an
amendment
to
the
climate
change
Act,
if
in
for
no
other
reason
to
establish
the
fact
that
it
is
the
decision
of
this
whole
Parliament.
Not
just
of
the
government.
I
was.
B
Just
coming
to
that
point
that
I'm
happy
to
do
so.
I
fully
agree
with
that
I
understand
discussions
and
that
matter
have
commenced
this
afternoon
and
will
come
to
a
conclusion.
That
is
a
commitment
we
have
entered
into,
and
we
are
pleased
to
do
so
and
there
can
be
discussions
about
future
citizens
assembly.
We
are
open
to
those
discussions.
Finally
presiding
officer
with
one
minute
to
go.
I
want
to
thank
mr.
Reni
for
his
calm,
kaanum
commendation
of
Johanna
cherry.
B
It
was
touching
to
say
the
least
I
think
of
this
day
of
all
days,
the
entire
chamber
should
commander
look
at
the
result
in
the
inner
house
today.
We
should
be
glad
that
she
is
a
person
of
such
integrity
and
forthrightness.
She
says
what
she
thinks,
but
the
proposals
that
come
to
this
chamber
are
my
proposal.
They
are
I
know.
I,
have
been
very
restrained
with
the
Liberal
Democrats
and
as
I
have
only
a
minute
and
12
seconds
left
I
want
to
keep
that
restraint
in
hand,
no
matter
the
encouragement
not
to
do
so.
B
As
far
as
this
Parliament
is
concerned,
there
is
an
entirely
clear
set
of
proposals.
There
is
an
entirely
clear
remit:
there
are
two
independent
conveners
appointed
the
process
of
establishing
the
membership
is
underway.
I
have
reiterated
all
the
points
in
terms
of
the
independence
of
this
citizens
assembly
in
the
debate
this
afternoon.
It
is
really
important
now
that
we,
in
my
view,
allow
our
votes
to
follow
our
voices.
B
If
those
people
have
spoken
this
afternoon
believes
the
decisions
assembly
is
important
and
useful
if
they
take
the
Irish
example,
which
was
established
in
both
cases
to
look
at
issues
within
the
Irish
Constitution.
If
they
believe
that
we
require
a
different
way
of
doing
politics
and
a
different
type
of
debate,
then
they
should
certainly
support
the
resolution.
If,
however,
they
do
not
believe
that
then
I
can't
imagine
why
they
are
pretending
to
support
it,
but
failing
to
support
it
when
we
put
our
money
where
our
mouth
is.
N
N
You
very
much-
and
no
one
has
asked
to
speak
of
the
motion
of
question,
therefore,
is
that
motion
one
eight
seven,
nine
seven
be
agreed,
are
L
agreed
they
are
agreed.
The
next
item
is
consideration
of
parliamentary
buta
motion.
One
eight,
seven,
nine
eight
on
designation
of
a
lead
committee
again
Claire
screamed
a
to
move.
This
motion
moves
resigning.
Also,
thank
you
very
much.
So
we
turn
now
to
decision
time.
N
First
question
is
that
amendment
one
eight
double
seven
8.1
in
the
name
of
Willie
Rennie,
which
seeks
to
amend
motion
one
eight
double
seven:
eight
in
the
name
of
Michael
Russell
on
the
citizens
assembly
of
Scotland
be
agreed.
Are
we
all
agreed
or
not
agreed,
we'll
move
to
vote
members
be
cast
of
votes
now.
N
The
result
of
the
vote
on
amendment
number
187.
Seventy
eight
point,
one
in
the
name
of
Willie
Rennie
is
yes
34,
No
86
there
were
no
abstentions.
Their
moment
is
therefore
not
agreed.
The
next
question
is
that
motion
one
eight
double
seven:
eight
in
the
name
of
Michael
Russell
on
the
citizens
assembly
of
Scotland
be
agreed.
Arielle
Reid,
we're
not
agreed,
we'll
move
to
a
division.
Members
may
cast
their
votes
now.
N
The
result
of
the
vote
on
motion
one-eighth
double
seven,
eight
in
the
name
of
Michael
Russell
is
yes,
eighty
six,
no
five
there
were
twenty
nine
abstentions.
The
motion
is
therefore
agreed,
and
the
final
question
is
that
motion
one
eight,
seven,
nine
eight
in
the
near
of
cream
D
on
designation
of
a
lead
committee,
be
agreed
are
well
agreed.
We
are
agreed-
and
that
concludes
decision
time-
we're
going
to
move
shortly
to
members
business
in
the
name
of
house
tour
Alan
on
the
tenth
anniversary
of
a
Scottish
food
and
drink
fortnight.