►
Description
Debate: The Baroness Cumberlege Report
A
Thank
you
very
much
on
that
note.
We're
going
to
move
on
from
from
topical
questions
to
the
next
item,
business,
which
is
a
debate
on
motion
double
to
635
in
the
name
of
gene
freeman
on
the
baroness
cumberland
report,
could
I
invite
all
members
who
wish
to
ask
a
question
on
this
matter
to
press
their
request
to
speak
buttons
and
not
not
to
ask
a
question?
A
B
B
This
will
have
been
a
very
difficult
thing
for
them
to
do,
and
I
want
to
put
on
record
my
admiration
for
their
courage
and
determination
and
for
their
efforts
in
persistently
raising
issues
over
a
number
of
years
to
all
those
directly
harmed
by
mesh
by
sodium
valprait
and
by
promoters.
I
want
to
offer
the
scottish
government's
sincere
apology
to
them
and
also
to
those
who
have
seen
their
children,
their
family
members,
their
friends
and
colleagues
suffer.
B
The
review
and
the
recommendations
are
of
significant
importance
to
us
as
we
work
to
improve
how
the
health
care
system
responds
to
harm
and
I'm
grateful
to
the
review
team
not
only
for
the
work
they've
done,
but
for
how
they
have
done
that
work.
I
was
pleased
to
be
able
to
speak
yesterday
with
baroness
cumberlage
and
her
team
and
hear
from
her
the
experience
of
the
review's
work,
the
thinking
behind
the
recommendations
and
her
determination
to
see
these
acted
on.
B
B
The
independent
medicines
and
medical
devices
safety
review
was
commissioned
by
a
former
uk
secretary
of
state
for
health
and
social
care,
so
there
are
recommendations
which
only
the
uk
government,
with
its
reserved
responsibilities,
can
implement
the
regulation
of
medicines
and
medical
devices
to
is
reserved
to
the
uk
government,
and
so
the
recommendation
that
the
mhra
be
subject
to
substantial
reform
is
for
them
to
implement.
But
it
is
a
recommendation
I
strongly
support.
B
We
have
long
argued
for
reform
in
the
assessment
of
medicine
and
medical
device
safety
and
have
communicated
directly
with
mhra
on
this.
We've
been
disappointed
that
they
believe
their
assessment
systems
are
fit
for
purpose,
and
I
gave
baroness
cumberland
my
assurance
that
we
will
use
the
avenues
available
to
us
to
press
the
uk
government
to
act
positively
and
swiftly
to
review
this
body
with
patient
safety
at
the
heart.
B
Here
in
scotland,
we
have
established
a
declarations
of
interest
steering
group
which
aims
to
formulate
a
common
set
of
principles
for
the
identification
and
management
of
declarations
of
interest
across
nhs,
scotland
and
related
sectors,
and
is
due
to
complete
its
work
early
next
year.
I
hope
that
can
help
inform
the
response
of
the
gmc.
B
Turning
now
to
recommendations,
three
four
and
five.
I
absolutely
understand
that
those
who
have
suffered
harm
as
a
result
of
these
treatments
won't
redress
not
only
financially,
though
I
appreciate
that
is
important,
but
also
access
to
appropriate,
ongoing
care
that
addresses
the
consequences
of
the
harm
experienced.
That
is
both
right
and
fair.
B
I
welcome
the
approach
taken
in
seeing
the
redress
agency
as
independent,
funded
in
part
by
the
pharmaceutical
and
medical
device
manufacturers
and
adopting
a
non-adversarial
approach
which
looks
to
base
determinations
on
avoidable
harm
through
systemic
failures.
This
is
of
critical
importance
and
a
recommendation.
We
support.
B
B
The
review
recommends
the
establishment
of
specialist
centres
and,
as
members
know,
we
have
invested
5.1
million
over
three
years
in
a
new,
complex
pelvic
mesh
removal
service
in
glasgow
designated
as
a
national
service.
In
july
this
year,
the
service
will
assess
all
of
a
woman's
relevant
health
needs
and
subject
to
fully
informed
agreement,
offer
offer
vaginal
mesh
removal
surgery
for
women
over
16
who
have
mesh
complications
from
mesh
insertion,
vaginally
or
abdominally
for
urinary
incontinence
and
prolapse.
B
B
The
short
life
working
group
has,
and
will
continue
to
ensure
that
the
views
of
women
are
central
to
the
creation
of
the
service
in
glasgow.
There
will
be
a
phased
introduction
this
year,
offering
assessment
and
treating
patients
with
complex
needs
with
a
clear
patient
pathway.
The
service
is
an
advanced
stage
of
development
and
it
is
important
that
all
those
affected
have
access
to
high
quality
services.
B
B
B
C
Thank
you,
minister.
Again,
there
are
a
multitude
of
questions
that
need
answered
about
this
service
and
it's
the
women
themselves
who
are
asking
it.
They
do
not
have
faith
in
the
way
that
the
service
has
been
brought
up.
I'm
not
asking
for
the
service
to
be
cancelled,
I'm
asking
for
it
to
be
paused
until
all
of
those
questions
are
answered
and
people
can
have
faith
in
what
has
been
built
governor
secretary,
so.
B
I
accept
absolutely
what
the
core
of
what
mr
finley
is
saying
in
terms
of
the
importance
of
women
having
faith
in
this
specialist
service,
and
undoubtedly
one
of
the
harms
that
have
been
done
is
is
in
terms
of
trust,
and
I
completely
accept
that.
But
we
do
have
women
that
the
alliance
has
canvassed
and
reached
large
numbers,
many
of
whom
have
written
to
me
who
want
this
service
notwithstanding.
B
B
The
close
working
partnership
between
this
service
and
the
specialist
centres
in
england
will
also
allow
for
benchmarking
and
peer
review
will
help.
I
hope,
to
restore
trust
and
confidence
in
our
services
and
as
such,
we
are
happy
to
accept
jackson,
carlos
amendment
to
promotion
in
respect
of
other
specialist
centers.
My
senior
officials
recently
met
with
patient
groups
and
we're
currently
considering
whether
additional
centres
or
services
would
be
helpful
for
those
affected
by
sodium
vaporwave
and
promoters.
B
B
B
All
of
these
are
important
drivers
of
change
and
continuous
improvement,
and
a
key
aim
of
this
programme
is
to
support
nhs.
Scotland's
commitment
to
continuously
improve
patient
safety.
I
will
now
turn
to
what
I
think
is
a
key
recommendation
of
baroness
cumberland's
report.
The
appointment
of
an
independent
patient
safety,
commissioner,
is
clear
to
me
not
just
from
her
findings,
but
also
from
my
own
discussions
with
messengered
women
families,
and
so
that
there
is
still
work
to
be
done
to
ensure
that
people
are
listened
to
are
heard
and
their
experiences
acknowledged
and
valued.
B
They
should
not
be
experiencing
additional
distress
when
what
they
need
is
further
care
and
support.
Nhs.
Scotland
carries
the
mantra
safe,
effective
and
person-centered.
I
believe
in
that
absolutely,
but
I
also
know
that
there
is
more
for
us
to
do
to
deliver
on
it.
People
must
be
at
the
center
of
the
decisions
made
about
their
care.
We
fully
expect
clinicians
to
facilitate
shared
decision,
making,
listen
to
their
patients,
concerns
and
explain
the
risks
and
benefits
of
treatment
options
to
allow
them
to
make
informed
decisions.
B
This
is
central
to
the
principles
of
realistic
medicine
and
should
be
fully
embedded
in
the
new
specialist
service
for
mesh
complications.
Indeed,
when
I
met
baroness
cumberland
yesterday,
she
spoke
at
length
about
this.
It
is
vital,
and
it
is
why
we
agree
with
allison
john
johnson's
amendment
to
the
motion.
B
It
is
vital
for
patients
to
have
confidence
that
every
time
they
access
any
part
of
the
health
care
system,
they
will
receive
the
information
they
need
to
make
an
informed
decision
and
the
best
available
treatment
without
fear
of
harm
by
creating
a
culture
of
openness
and
learning,
everyone
should
feel
able
to
share
what
has
gone
well,
but
also
what
has
gone
wrong
and
what
could
have
gone
better.
This
helps
us
all
to
learn
and
to
continually
improve
our
services.
B
They're
looking
for
and
not
everyone
feels
they
have
been
properly
listened
to,
or
that
change
will
come
from
their
feedback
as
a
result,
relationships
between
patients
and
health
and
care
providers
break
down
with
patients
losing
faith
in
the
service.
This
needs
to
be
addressed,
and
that
is
why
establishing
the
patient
safety.
Commissioner
role
for
scotland
is
now
a
program
for
government
commitment.
B
The
role
must
be
proactive
and
enhance
what
we
already
have
in
place,
with
the
emphasis
on
listening
to
and
learning
from
people's
experiences
and
driving
implementation
to
continually
improve
patient
safety
to
get
this
right
and
make
it
work
for
patients,
we
need
to
listen
to
them,
so
we
will
shortly
begin
a
consultation
to
understand
what
patients
want
from
this
new
role
and
then
to
act
to
implement
it
as
soon
as
possible.
I
am
anxious
that
we
do
not
delay
in
this
area.
Presiding
officer.
B
While
there
is
a
great
deal
of
alignment
between
our
thinking
and
our
actions
to
date,
her
report
gives
us
the
opportunity
and
arguably
the
impetus
to
go
further
as
we
draw
together
our
implementation
steps.
I
am
pleased
that
baroness
cumberland
has
accepted
my
invitation
to
offer
advice
to
me
on
our
delivery
plan
and
has
accepted
my
offer
to
support
her
as
she
seeks
to
ensure
that
the
governments
of
all
four
nations
implement
her
recommendations
as
we
move
forward
with
this
putting
in
place
the
detail,
in
particular
the
consultation
on
the
patient
safety.
D
Thank
you,
presiding
officer.
Can
I
begin
by
referring
to
my
register
of
interest
in
terms
of
health
technologies.
I'm
grateful
for
the
opportunity
to
open
for
the
scottish
conservatives
today
and
I
will
start
by
moving
the
amendment
in
jackson,
carla's
name.
I
recognize
that
the
thorough
and
rigorous
report
by
baroness
cumberland
covers
a
wide
variety
of
cases
and
issues,
and
I
hope
to
cover
some
of
these.
However,
I
want
to
begin
my
remarks
by
focusing
on
the
issue
of
polypropylene
mesh
implants.
D
Many
sorry
will
adopt
my
recommendations
and
ensure
patients
are
listened
to.
I
also
want
to
take
this
opportunity
to
pay
tribute
to
three
msps
who
are
in
this
chamber
and
whose
contribution
should
be
recognized
and
who
will
no
doubt
speak
later
in
this
debate.
Firstly,
my
colleague
jackson,
carlo
as
our
health
spokesperson
in
2014.
D
He
met
with
the
campaigners
and
took
up
this
issue
on
numerous
occasions
in
the
scottish
parliament
and
took
evidence
while
on
the
public
petitions
committee.
He
has
been
a
champion
for
the
many
women
who
have
been
affected
by
mesh
implants
and
has
continued
campaigning
on
the
subject,
even
when
it
has
been
out
of
the
public
glare.
D
I
would
also
like
to
pay
tribute
to
two
other
people
who
have
played
a
critical
role
in
securing
change:
neil
finley
and
alec
neal,
who
have
been
powerful
advocates
for
women
affected
by
mesh
in
different
ways.
Neil
finley
has
been
a
potent
voice
in
this
chamber
and
outsiders
chamber
for
those
women
and
has
not
shied
away
from
robustly
holding
the
scottish
government
to
account
when
it
has
dragged
its
heels
and
alec
neal.
E
C
D
Baroness
cumbridge
has
called
on
scotland
to
lead
the
way
in
implementing
its
recommendations
where
appropriate,
and
that
is
why
those
of
us,
from
these
benches,
welcomed
the
commitment
in
the
program
for
government
repeated
today
to
establish
a
patient
safety
commissioner,
as
recommended
in
the
report-
and
we
will
monitor
this
closely
so
as
to
ensure
whoever
is
appointed
to
that
role.
Has
the
clear
support
of
patients
and
campaigners,
because
one
of
the
recurring
themes-
and
it's
already
been
mentioned
today
of
the
mesh
scandal-
is
the
lack
of
confidence
that
affected
women
have
in
the
system.
D
Neil
finley
spoke
just
earlier
of
faith
in
the
system,
I'm
afraid
to
say
there
has
been
a
history
of
kicking
the
can
down
the
road
and
hoping
this
would
go
to
go
away
when
it
comes
to
mesh
trust
in
the
scottish
government,
and
those
responsible
in
the
health
service
needs
to
be
revitalized.
That
is
an
urgent
imperative.
D
D
And
while
we
note
and
welcome
the
recent
announcements
from
the
scottish
government
to
provide
additional
support
for
patients,
including
the
1
million
pound
fund,
to
support
women
with
transvaginal
mesh
complications
and
the
establishment
of
the
national
mesh
removal
service,
we
will
carefully
scrutinize
the
efficacy
of
both
these
measures,
taking
into
account
the
experiences
and
views
of
those
who
have
suffered
from
mesh
implants.
But
that
should
not
be
the
end
of
the
road.
D
Indeed,
the
inability
to
secure
his
services
was
put
bluntly
in
the
scottish
mesh
survivor's
most
recent
submission
to
the
public
petitions
commission,
where
they
said
that,
and
I
quote
losing
out
on
this
opportunity-
was
not
only
shameful.
It
left
scotland's
mess
injured.
Women
devastated
terrified
and
unwilling
to
use
the
service
of
the
very
surgeons
who
had
not
only
implanted
them
with
the
mess
which
destroyed
their
lives
but
had
also
campaigned,
but
had
also
campaigned
to
continue
using
the
implants.
D
B
Does
the
member
acknowledge
that
as
far
as
the
scottish
government
is
concerned,
and
I,
as
the
cabinet
secretary,
the
offer
to
dr
veronicas
remains
open
that
the
preconditions
that
he
has
set
and
has
put
down
in
black
and
white
are
preconditions
that
cannot
be
met
and
would
not
be
met
for
any
visiting
clinician
or
surgeon
of
any
standing,
but
that
our
peak,
that
our
conditions
that
we
require
for
patient
safety
are
that
that
he
would
come
and
that
he
had
previously
agreed
to
that
he
would
come.
He
would
be
part
of
our
mdt
process.
B
C
E
D
The
scottish
mass
survivors
were
clear.
They
took
a
very
firm
view
about
his
services
and
the
need
for
him
to
take
action.
Our
amendment
makes
clear
that
the
women
who
have
had
mesh
implants
and
require
removal
surgery
must
be
undertaken
by
surgeons
who
enjoy
the
full
confidence
of
those
women
affected.
That's
the
issue
it's
about
confidence,
and
that
has
to
be
fully
funded
by
the
nhs
it
is
no
less
than
they
deserve,
and
we
hope
that
the
scottish
government
recognise
this
and
support
our
amendment.
D
It
is
also
worth
remembering
those
with
conditions
other
than
pelvic
organ
prolapse
pop
and
stress
urinary
incontinence
who
have
suffered
from
mesh
implants.
At
the
end
of
2018,
the
sunday
post
newspaper
reported
the
stories
of
patients
male
and
female,
who
received
mesh
implants
during
hernia
operations.
One
patient
described
the
pain
following
that
treatment
as
agonizing
and
like
being
strangled
from
the
inside.
D
So
it
is
clear
that
this
particular
form
of
material
has
had
wide-ranging
effects
and
caused
untold
damage
to
many
lives.
The
report
has
been
clear
on
the
use
of
mesh
to
treat
pop
and
suv
while
it
stops
short
of
calling
for
an
overall
ban
on
its
use.
It
says
that
women
must
be
able
to
make
a
fully
informed
decision
based
on
clear
and
unbiased
information
that
benefits
the
risks,
the
alternatives
and
doing
nothing,
and
that
mesh
treatment
should
be
considered
as
a
last
line
option
after
conservative
non-surgical
options
and
after
consideration
of
non-mesh
surgery.
D
Two
of
the
key
themes
throughout
many
of
these
stories
was
the
lack
of
information
given
to
patients
about
the
potential
side
effects
of
these
treatments
and
the
manner
in
which
patients
were
ignored
by
clinicians
when
they
raised
their
concerns,
and
they
were
not
one-off
failings
or
failures
that
could
be
attributed
to
a
particular
hospital
or
gp
practice,
but
were
instead
indicative
of
a
clear,
system-wide
failure.
The
report
argues
that
the
influence
of
patients
within
the
nhs
and
the
overall
delivery
of
healthcare
needs
to
be
increased.
To
balance
the
authority
both
directly
and
indirectly.
D
Of
those
we
call
stakeholders
in
the
system
and
it
notes
the
consequences
of
failing
to
listen
to
patients
often
leads
to
the
patient,
feeling
vulnerable
and
being
unable
to
challenge
in
question.
The
patient
is
ignored
and
feels
belittled.
The
patient
voice
is
dismissed
as
a
report
terms.
That
is
a
damning
indictment,
so
it's
clearly
vital
this
improves
and
hopefully
important.
The
employment
of
a
pub
patient
safety.
Commissioner,
can
go
some
way
to
achieving
that
outcome.
D
Presiding
officer
in
closing,
I've
merely
scratched
the
surface
of
this
detail
report,
and
I
want
to
note
these
benches
thanks
to
brownless
coverage
and
for
their
tireless
work
in
putting
this
together.
It's
clear
that
scotland,
some
immediate
steps
have
already
been
taken
and
we
welcome
and
support
those,
but
it
must
also
be
noted
that,
in
the
case
of
the
many
women
who
continue
to
seek
mass
removal
treatment
that
their
fight
continues
and
in
scotland,
we
can
make
a
difference
if
we
have
the
resolve
to
do
so.
Thank
you.
C
Please,
president,
remove
the
amendment
in
my
name.
I
want
to
thank
barnes
cumberland
for
an
excellent
report.
It
stands
in
stark
contrast
to
the
discredited
charm
of
a
review
that
was
conducted
in
scotland
a
few
years
back,
it's
taken
eight
years
for
a
debate
on
mesh
and
government
time,
despite
this
being
one
of
the
biggest
medical
scandals
in
the
history
of
scotland's
nhs.
C
Every
step
of
the
way
ministers
in
the
medical
establishment
have
had
to
be
dragged,
kicking
and
screaming
to
take
action
to
support
mass
injured
women,
and
this
is
exactly
the
same
for
women
who
are
victims
of
sodium
valpra
and
primados.
They
have
had
the
same
systematic
cover-up,
denial,
manipulation
of
medical
records
and
vested
interests
protecting
themselves
and
forgetting
that
their
priorities
should
always
be
patient
care.
C
One
words
in
sympathy
cut
no
ice
with
those
who
have
lost
their
jobs,
their
homes,
their
life
savings,
their
organs,
their
relationships,
their
ability
to
walk
women
who
now
use
wheelchairs
and
walking.
Aids
have
double
incontinence
who
live
lives
of
chronic
debilitating
pain
or
whose
children
were
born
or
their
health
growth
or
development
so
terribly
affected.
They
don't
need
another
clinician
or
a
minister
empathizing
with
their
plight.
They
wish
mesh
women
already
feel
used
by
a
first
minister
who,
having
ignored
them
for
eight
years,
suddenly
became
desperate
to
meet
them.
C
I
wonder
if
the
fact
that
it
was
in
the
middle
of
a
general
election
might
have
had
something
to
do
with
it
their
words
their
words,
not
mine.
No,
they
demand
action
from
a
medical
establishment
that
puts
them
first,
not
the
vested
interests
of
surgeons
who
implanted
them
or
the
manufacturers
whose
products
maim
them.
They
need
a
care
pathway
that
includes
the
right
for
them
to
have
this
poison
removed
from
their
body
safely.
C
If
that
is
what
they
want,
but
that
removal
must
only
be
undertaken
by
clinicians
who
know
what
they're
doing
ask
any
member
today.
Would
you
trust
a
doctor
whose
recommendations
and
actions
had
wrecked
your
life
to
be
the
person
to
remove
a
product
that
is
designed
not
to
be
removed
from
your
body?
C
B
Freeman,
does
the
member
accept
that,
in
response
to
those
situations,
we
have
established
an
independent
case
review
that
will,
with
each
of
the
women
involved
independently
using
clinic
senior
clinicians
from
out
west
scotland,
go
through
each
of
those
cases
with
those
women
and
then
decide
with
them?
What
further
steps
will
be
taken,
but
is
the
member
saying
that
a
surgeon
who
implants
mesh
cannot
be
a
surgeon
who
removes
mesh.
C
C
The
cumberland
report
cites
multiple
systematic
feelings
resulting
in
life-changing
harm
and
makes
nine
recommendations,
and
I'm
pleased
that
the
cabinet
secretary
has
confirmed
that
they
will
implement
all
of
those
that
they
have
the
power
to
do
so.
That
is
a
major
step
forward
and
I
welcome
that,
but
I
have
to
say,
mesh
injured.
Women
have
huge
questions
about
the
new
mesh
service.
That's
been
established,
none
of
the
scottish
mesh
survivors
group.
C
None
of
them
have
been
involved
in
the
alliance
project
that
I
know
off
and
I
was
receiving
texts
from
them
as,
as
we
are
speaking
here,
they
question
who's
going
to
staff
this
service.
Will
it
be
the
same
clinicians
that
women
have
lost
all
confidence
in,
I'm
advised
it
will
be
what
removal
techniques
will
be
used?
C
Will
it
be
the
same
ones
that
have
caused
even
more
damage
to
some
of
the
women
who've
already
had
partial
mesh
removals?
What
accredited
training
of
those
who
will
be
staffing
it
had
the
service
evaluation
handed
to
the
first
minister
november
2019
confirms
that
all
of
the
women
who
have
had
partial
mesh
removal
surgery
in
scotland
continue
to
suffer
chronic
pain
and
that
half
surveyed
did
not
undergo
removal
surgery
because
they
do
not
trust
the
service.
The
service's
own,
published
research
confirms
that
surgeons
did
not
do
total
mesh
removal,
but
they
thought
they
had.
C
How
can
the
service
be
allowed
to
carry
out
surgery
when
surgeons
cannot
do
safe,
total
removal,
and
why
did
the
lead
clinicians
fail
to
engage
with
dr
veronicas
when
he
offered
help
advice
and
learning
and
what
happened
to
the
patient
information
leaflet,
the
decision-making
aid
that
was
developed
by
dr
aguero
and
the
scottish
mess
injured
women.
It
was
sent
to
the
first
minister
in
2019
in
november,
and
it's
still
not
being
introduced
across
the
board
a
year
later.
C
None
of
the
scottish
messenger
women
from
the
group
who've
campaigned
so
vigorously
here
have
been
involved
in
that
design.
It's
been
a
hand-picked
few.
This
service
is
setting
itself
up
to
fail
from
the
outset
if
it
continues
in
the
way
it
has
and
that
that
would
be
a
cry
and
shame
if
that
were
allowed
to
happen.
C
The
development
of
the
service
has
to
be
suspended
at
this
point.
Until
all
of
these
questions
are
asked,
it
answered
sorry
and
then
we
may
be
able
to
move
forward.
I'm
pleading
with
the
cabinet
secretary
do
not
waste
public
money
on
this.
When
there
are
so
many
questions
hanging
over
this
service,
there
are
people
out
there
desperate
for
help.
They
won't
go
under
the
current
circumstances.
C
C
20
years
of
patients
been
abandoned
by
the
system,
an
unprecedented
scandal,
around
implant
and
our
implants
and
a
failure
to
commission
full,
safe
removal.
The
first
minister
and
health
minister
have
recognised
the
very
rare
circumstances
of
this
scandal
and
they've
recognized
that
international
help
was
needed.
Hence
the
contact
with
dr
veronicas,
the
parliament.
The
petition
system
and
alec
follow
up
suspended
mesh
and
it
remains
in
place
that
is
unprecedented,
also
and
there's
an
unprecedented
level
of
mistrust
in
the
surgical
community
and
what
skills
they
may
or
may
not
have.
C
They
are
entrenched
in
a
legacy
of
a
failure
to
adhere
to
the
principle
central
to
their
oath
first
do
no
harm.
This
is
a
massive
global
female
health
scandal
and
there's
no
only
one
credible
option
that
respects
the
autonomy
of
the
women
recognises
the
unique
set
of
circumstances
around
and
will
instill
confidence
in
them
and
that
is
to
allow
without
further
delay
the
nhs
to
finance
travel
abroad
or
within
the
uk.
If
that
service
can
be
found
for
treatment
of
a
surgeon,
often
with
a
surgeon
of
their
choice,
their
choice,
autonomy.
C
These
women
are
heroes.
They
deserve
nothing
less.
Finally,
let's
remember
all
those
who
have
died
too
young
of
mesh
related
illnesses,
especially
today
mrs
eileen
baxter,
the
first
woman
to
have
mesh
identified
on
her
death
certificate
as
a
contributory
factor.
God
bless
her
and
her
family
who
continue
to
fight
in
her
memory.
F
Thank
you,
presiding
officer.
I
know
that
all
in
this
chamber
will
wish
to
pay
tribute
to
to
all
affected
by
the
feelings
in
our
health
system.
As
listed
in
the
review,
they
did
what
their
health
service
failed
to.
They
supported
each
other
and
fought
for
years,
sometimes
decades
to
have
their
stories
heard,
and
I
hope
that
this
report
has
been
the
cause
of
some
relief
to
them,
but
it
should
never
have
come
to
this.
I'd
like
to
focus
on
the
issues
I
highlighted
in
my
amendment.
F
I
should
say
that
my
amendment
today
is
selected
alongside
amendments
lodged
by
two
of
the
three
mesh
guitars.
That's
the
name
given
to
neil
finley,
to
jackson,
carlo
and
to
alex
neal
by
the
scottish
mesh
survivors
and
the
fact
that
these
incredible
campaigning
women
are
still
able
to
employ.
Humor
tells
you
so
much
about
their
spirit,
and
it
shows
to
you
how
very
grateful
they
are
to
each
of
you
for
your
consistent,
ongoing,
determined
and
vocal
support.
F
I
think
it's
fair
to
say
that
few
women
would
ever
imagine
that
they'd
be
sharing
their
most
intimate
health
problems
with
men
who
were
neither
physicians
or
partners.
So
I'd
like
to
highlight
on
the
focus
on
the
issues
I
highlighted
in
my
amendment,
we
can't
ignore
the
fact
that
the
scandals
examined
in
the
review
specifically
affect
women.
His
findings
speak
to
a
larger
culture
of
silence
around
women's
pain
and
discomfort.
F
It
shouldn't
be
news
to
anyone
here
that
this
pain
is
still
being
normalized
and
dismissed
as
women's
problems.
How
many
times
have
we
discussed
the
stigma
around
periods
in
the
menopause
in
this
chamber,
and
yet
the
review
highlights
instances
where
women
were
told
that
their
symptoms
were
just
part
of
that
time
of
life.
Aside
from
the
fact
that
this
was
obviously
not
the
case,
why
are
women
continually
expected
to
simply
put
up
with
distressing
symptoms,
because
it's
part
of
being
a
woman
when
will
women
be
listened
to,
and
more
importantly
believed?
F
It
states
that
the
whole
pharmaceutical
and
devices
regulatory
systems
have
been
criticized
as
being
sub-optimal
for
women,
and
we
also
need
to
recognize
how
issues
such
as
race
intersect.
With
this,
our
2019
report
by
embrace
uk
found
that
black
women
were
five
times
more
likely
than
white
women
to
die
from
complications
associated
with
pregnancy,
the
risk
for
asian
and
mixed
race.
Women
were
two
and
threefold
respectively,
so
we
need
to
acknowledge
the
barriers
which
all
women
face
when
accessing
healthcare
in
scotland.
F
F
I
will
never
forget
meeting
the
mesh
survivors
in
that
small
room
on
the
ground
floor
just
off
the
garden
lobby.
The
room
was
too
small
for
those
who
had
made
the
huge
effort
to
come
here
to
their
parliament
to
share
those
shockingly
personal
details
with
their
representatives,
a
group
of
women,
who'd
undergone
surgery
to
address
incontinence
and
found
themselves
requiring
crutches
and
wheelchairs.
One
woman
and
her
husband
described
her
24-hour
day.
F
Incontinence,
I
cannot
imagine
the
impact
this
will
have
had
on
their
lives,
not
to
not
only
in
terms
of
physical
limitations
but
their
independence,
their
mental
health,
their
self-esteem,
their
self-confidence,
and
you
know,
like
other
colleagues
here
I
met
women
who'd
been
forced
to
leave
their
their
jobs,
really
important
jobs,
women
who
could
no
longer
look
after
the
loved
one,
the
woman
who
was
heartbroken.
She
could
no
longer
lift
her
grandchildren
up
so
women
of
different
ages
and
backgrounds
who
banded
together
and
supported
one
another
at
a
time
of
great
physical
and
mental
distress.
F
So
we
do
need
accomplish
a
complex
mesh
removal,
surgical
service
for
women
experiencing
complications
following
vaginal
mesh
implants.
Given
the
trauma
these
women
have
experienced
as
a
result
of
their
pain
and
their
struggle
to
be
listened
to,
psychological
support
has
to
be
an
important
part
of
this
service
too.
However,
there
must
be
a
rebuilding
of
trust
between
the
women
affected
and
the
health
service.
F
F
Now
the
review
notes
that
some
mesh
survivors
have
so
lost
faith
in
the
nhs
provision
for
mesh
removal
that
they've
been
prepared
to
pay
for
expensive
private
surgery
in
some
cases,
they've
traveled
overseas
at
great
cost,
both
personal
and
financial.
No
one
should
have
to
do
this
and,
of
course,
this
isn't
an
option
for
everyone.
People
mustn't
feel
so
let
down
by
a
health
care
system
that
they've
got
no
option
but
to
pay
for
their
care.
So
this
rebuilding
of
trust
has
to
be
prioritized.
F
F
G
G
What
is
common
with
all
three
of
the
medical
interventions
examined
in
this
review
is
that
the
patients
by
and
large,
were
always
nearly
women
and
in
a
lot
of
cases
they
were.
Those
interventions
were
linked
to
their
pregnancies.
The
fact
that
their
chronic
symptoms
were
dismissed
for
so
long
as
so-called
women's
problems
is
scandalous
and
a
horrific
example
of
gender
inequality.
When
we
look
back
at
the
last
few
decades
and
how
many
lives
have
been
wrecked
by
these
interventions,
it's
a
matter
of
national
shame.
G
Nothing
can
undo
the
damage
other
than
apology,
compensation,
corrective
surgery
and
psychological
support.
Thousands
of
women
who
took
the
drug
promoters,
their
children
are
have
been
born
with
disabilities,
sometimes
painful
disabilities,
and
they
are
now
adults.
There
is
no
doubt
in
my
mind
that
the
redress
needs
to
be
significant
for
all
cases
in
this
review,
and
this
compensation
should
come
from
the
uk
government,
but
also
the
regulatory
bodies
who
failed
these
women,
as
well
as
the
german
drug
company
buyer,
who
need
to
accept
some
responsibility
for
this.
G
G
My
former
colleague
in
westminster,
norman
lam,
called
on
the
use
of
sodium
valporate
during
pregnancy
in
the
1970s
as
an
extraordinary
scandal,
there
are
an
estimated
20
000
children
also
now
all
adults
who
have
been
left
with
disabilities
as
a
result.
What
is
even
more
painful
from
others
is
that
it
was
a
drug
often
used
to
treat
mild
seizures
that
they
would
certainly
never
have
taken
had
they
been
fully
informed
about
the
potential
side
effects
for
their
babies,
but
it
is
on
the
issue
of
mesh
that
has
united
this
parliament
this
afternoon.
G
I
want
to
focus
the
remainder
of
my
remarks.
I
welcome
the
national
vaginal
mesh
removal
service
that
was
launched
last
month,
in
particular
the
much
needed
psychological
support
alongside
the
1.3
million
pound
fund.
I
would
ask
the
cabinet
secretary
if
she
could
answer
in
her
closing
remarks,
whether
patients
will
be
able
to
choose
their
own
surgeon
for
corrective
surgery.
I
think
it
is
an
important
point
to
make
and
it
was
made
by
neil
finley
that
many
women
do
not
have
the
confidence
that
the
surgeon
that
originally
did
their
injury
should
be
part
of
its
solution.
G
I
think
we
need
to
recognize
that
fear
and
anxiety.
I
also
want
to
be
sure
that
they,
if
they
need
to
travel
outside
of
this
country,
then
they
will
have
the
cost
of
so
doing,
reimbursed
to
them
by
nhs.
Scotland.
I
raised
the
issue
of
international
intervention
because,
as
we've
heard,
the
us
based
obstetrician
dr
veronicas,
is
a
world
leader
in
mash
removal
surgery,
and
it
is
hugely
regretful
that
he
has
withdrawn
his
offer
to
come
to
scotland
following
difficulties
and
delays
in
arranging
the
village
visit.
G
I
do
recognize
from
the
cabinet
secretary
that
that
offer
is
still
open.
I
hope
very
much
that
he
will
come
here
and
train
surgeons
to
carry
out
the
corrective
surgery,
because
that's
absolutely
fundamental
in
doing
right
by
these
patients
allison
johnson
mentioned
in
very
eloquent
terms.
The
visit
that
she
and
I
both
attended,
organized
by
neil
finley
of
the
mesh
survivors
group
in
the
ground
floor
room
in
the
scottish
parliament
that
that
visit
will
stay
with
me
for
the
remainder
of
my
parliamentary
career
and
probably
for
the
rest
of
my
life.
G
The
majority
of
us
will
do
at
some
point,
but
that's
okay,
and
there
are
easy
ways
of
fixing
that,
with
proper
pelvic
floor
physiotherapy,
rather
than
the
insertion
of
potentially
devastating
implants,
as
we
see
all
too
often
used,
and
they
should
and
where
they
pharmaceutical
products
may
never
have
even
made
it
out
of
trial
phase.
Given
the
impact
and
physical
injury,
we
know
that
they
can
cause.
So
while
this
report
rightly
focuses
on
transvaginal
mesh,
because
that
is
where
the
majority
of
these
mesh
survivors
have
had
their
implants.
G
I
would
like
to
remind
the
chambers
of
the
forgotten
survivors-
and
it
was
a
point
I
think
rightly
made
by
donald
cameron
when
he
pointed
out
those
who
have
suffered
mass
surgery
to
fix
hernias.
The
the
pause
on
surgery
does
not
apply
for
those
operations.
They
receive
little
very
little
recognition
and
no
corrective
surgery,
and
certainly
no
financial
payout.
I
cannot
see
why
they
are
discounted
from
this
cabinet
secretary
will
remember.
I
have
previously
raised
with
her
the
case
of
my
constituent,
leslie
hughes.
G
G
She
find
it
trippy
to
return
to
work
and
leslie
traveled
to
london
in
october,
2018
to
have
the
mesh
removed
privately
rather
than
on
our
nhs,
and
although
helps
it
help
the
pain
and
mobility,
she
still
has
chronic
fatigue,
pain,
migraine
and
reduced
mobility.
She
is
now
saving
money
to
buy
a
scooter.
She
has
been
financially
hit
because
she's
had
to
reduce
her
hours
of
work
and
she's
been
physically
unable
to
work
full-time.
G
She
was
offered
the
removal
surgery
from
the
nhs,
but
she
paid
surgically
for
the
surgery
privately,
because
she
told
me
that
she
had
no
trust
or
evidence
of
good
practice
from
the
surgeon
she
was
assigned
and
was
not
willing
to
risk
their
matters
being
worse.
I
can
see
my
time
coming
to
end.
I
would
just
like
to
close
by
thanking
once
again
all
of
those
mesh
survivors
assuring
the
movers
of
all
amendments
from
all
parties
today
that
will
be
supporting
all
of
you
and
I'm
grateful
for
the
opportunity
to
contribute
to
this
debate.
Thank
you.
E
H
Thank
you,
deputy
presiding
officer.
Can
I
say
there
are
very
few
issues
in
this
parliament
that
unite
all
five
parties,
but
I
think
all
the
three
issues
addressed
by
the
cumberland
report
actually
adds
to
that
total
significantly
today,
and
I
too
would
like
to
pay
tribute
to
lady
cumberland
and
her
team
for
a
first-class
report
on
all
three
areas
in
which
they
looked
into,
although
I'll
be
concentrating,
obviously
on
the
mesh
issue,
and
there
are
a
number
of
points
I
would
like
to
make
to
take
as
forward
presiding
officer.
H
First
of
all,
can
I
very
much
welcome
the
scottish
government's
commitment
to
create
a
scottish,
a
patient
safety.
Commissioner,
I
think
this
is
long
overdue
and
it
is
a
huge
a.
It
could
be
a
huge
advantage
for
people
who
find
themselves
in
the
position
that
the
mesh
women
found
themselves
in
many
years
ago.
H
H
I
think
we
should
follow
the
example
example
of
the
ombudsman
and
make
this
a
parliamentary
appointment,
not
an
appointment
by
the
scottish
government
or
the
national
health
service.
I
think
to
maximize
the
confidence.
This
has
to
be
someone
who
is
not
seen
to
be
part
of
the
internal
system
if
the
problems
arise
in
the
first
place.
H
H
This
thing
has
got
to
have
teeth
and
the
power
to
rectify
mistakes
before
they're
made,
let
alone
once
they're
made,
and
the
other
suggestion
I
would
have
is:
let's
not
make
the
same
mistake.
We
did
with
the
scottish
human
rights
commission
and
disallow
it
from
investigating
individual
cases.
I
would
see
this
commissioner
being
able
to
look
at
generic
issues
around
patient
safety,
as
well
as
investigate
individual
cases,
and
I
think,
if
those
powers
that
remit
and
that
status
as
a
parliamentary
commissioner
are
awarded
to
this
position,
then
we'll
have
a
very
strong
patient
safety.
H
I
think
this
is
fundamental
to
the
basic
principle
that
the
patient
comes
first,
and
I
particularly
welcome
as
part
of
the
mess
removal
service,
the
individual
case
reviews
where
the
patient,
along
with
the
relevant
consultant
or
medics,
take
the
joint
decision
about
the
best
for
that
individual
patient.
None
of
us
are
qualified.
Indeed,
no
one
else
is
qualified
to
tell
a
patient
which
is
what's
best
for
them
other
than
the
patient
in
consultation
with
their
doctor.
H
Can
I
just
finish
this
point
then,
but
can
I
make
the
very
fundamental
point?
Is
we
do
know?
Although
we
don't
know
the
numbers
and
when
we
don't
know
the
individual
complexities,
nor
should
we
the
reality
is
that
will
be
a
significant
number
of
women
who
will
reach
the
conclusion
have
reached
the
conclusion
that
the
only
person
on
the
planet
who
can
safely
remove
their
mesh
is
dr
veronicas
in
america.
Now
I'm
not
going
to
get
into
who
said
when
phi
dr
veronica's
is
no
here
or
why
we
are
no
there.
H
I'm
not
interested
in
that.
Primarily.
I
just
want
us
to
get
to
the
position
that
those
women
who
need
their
mesh
removed
by
dr
veronicas
and
see
that
as
the
only
solution
for
them
that
those
women
one
way
or
another
get
access
to
the
services
of
dr
veronicas
to
to
remove
their
mesh.
I
believe
that
we
owe
it
to
these
women
to
make
sure
that
happens.
H
The
national
health
service
in
scotland,
and
indeed
in
the
rest
of
the
uk,
has
a
tradition
of
sending
people
abroad
for
any
procedure
that
cannot
be
safely
carried
out
in
our
own
country.
This
is
not
new.
What's
new.
Probably
here
is
the
potential
scale
on
what
one
in
which
we
need
to
do
this,
and
I
think
we've
just
got
to
as
a
parliament
as
a
government
as
a
society.
H
We
need
to
take
it
on
the
chin
that
we
owe
it
to
these
women
and
we
have
to
fruit
the
bill
for
the
women
who,
whose
only
solution
is
to
go
to
the
states
and
have
the
mess
removed
by
dr
veronicas,
and
I
think
that
is
the
most
important
aspect
actually
in
the
short
term
of
today's
debate,
because
we
cannot
allow.
We
cannot
allow
the
lives
of
these
women
to
be
destroyed
by
the
failure
to
remove
the
mesh.
H
I
Thank
you,
deputy
presiding
officer.
I
can
I
begin
by
pointing
members
to
my
register
of
interest
and
specifically
my
interest
in
healthcare
technologies
and
I'm
pleased
to
have
the
opportunity
to
speak
in
this
debate.
Regarding
the
baroness
cumberland
report,
this
is
not
the
first
time
this
chamber
has
debated
the
issue
of
polypropylene
mesh
implants
and
the
devastating
impacts
that
their
use
has
had,
and
so
many
patients
who
have
undergone
that
procedure.
I
I
know
when
I'm
when
I'm
outside
this
place,
that
will
not
leave
me.
I
can
still
vividly
picture
the
discomfort
of
those
giving
evidence
with
so
many
of
the
sufferers,
many
in
wheelchairs
sitting
behind
them,
reacting
to
every
question
and
every
answer
and
the
discomfort
of
those
giving
evidence
was
because
there's
little
that
could
be
said
to
justify
why
more
had
not
been
done
to
illegally
alleviate
the
suffering
of
so
many
and
prevent
future
suffering
actions
that
could
and
should
be
taken
swiftly.
I
has
been
mentioned
by
other
speakers.
Msps
from
across
the
chamber
have
been
instrumental
in
keeping
this
travesty
on
the
agenda.
Jackson,
car
law,
neil
finley,
alex
neil
all
joined
members
of
the
committee
for
every
evidence,
session
of
that
petitions
committee
when
mesh
was
on
the
agenda
and
vociferous
in
their
cross-examination
of
the
witnesses.
I
Surely
this
is
the
least
that
these
women
can
expect
and
the
scottish
government?
I
think
also
must
again
try
and
secure
the
services
of
the
mass
removal
specialist,
dr
veronicas,
and
I
think
it
is
baffling
to
the
campaigners
that
this
has
not
already
been
done
now.
Let's
remember,
this
petition
was
brought
to
parliament
in
2014
six
years
ago.
I
In
that
time
we
have
heard
how
how
the
then
cabinet
secretary
for
health
alex
neil
called
for
that
monatorium
on
the
use
of
mesh
across
scotland's
health
board,
believing
that
this
would
halt
the
use
of
that
procedure.
While
further
evidence
was
taken-
and
I
know
he
was
as
shocked
as
we
were-
to
find
out
that
that
monatorium
was
not
binding
and
several
health
boards
continued
with
the
procedure
regardless.
I
I
think
this
is
definitely
a
lesson
for
this
parliament
to
when
a
cabinet
secretary
makes
what
was
undeniably
the
right
decision
to
protect
public
health
and
is
unaware
that
his
decision
can
be
overruled
without
his
knowledge,
and
I
thought
it
rather
poignant
when
the
report
we
were
discussing
was
entitled.
First
do
no
harm
considering
the
way
in
which
this
and
other
treatments
in
this
report
have
been
deployed.
I
As
my
colleague,
donald
cameron
said
in
his
opening
address,
the
report
falls
short
of
recommending
an
outdate
ban
on
the
use
of
mesh
implants,
but
does
suggest
that
their
use
be
a
last
resort
treatment
only
after
the
other.
Other
treatments
have
been
fully
explored.
Furthermore,
and
just
as
importantly
as
the
way
in
which
the
patient
is
engaged
with
any
adverse
event
review,
and
that
has
to
change
something
I've
raised
in
this
chamber
many
times
in
relation
to
other
events,
such
as
a
childbirth
mortality.
I
I
think
the
patient
safety,
commissioner
would
seem
a
very
logical
way
to
promote
the
importance
of
listening
to
and
learning
from
patient
experiences,
and
it's
good
to
hear
the
scottish
government's
commitment
to
that.
Furthermore,
the
report
highlights
the
need
for
a
substantial
review
of
the
mhra,
which
I
have
to
say
in
their
engagement
with
the
petitions
committee
were
far
from
satisfactory
and
I
look
forward
to
that
happening.
I
The
other
recommendations
that
is
raised
in
the
report
as
a
call
for
a
central
patient
identifiable
database
that
collects
key
details
of
the
implementation
of
all
devices
at
the
time
of
operation.
The
issue
of
accessible
data
in
health
care
is
something
that
I
realize
the
chain
will
know.
I
have
called
for
on
many
occasions
the
development
of
an
it
platform
that
enables
the
use
of
accessible
data
and
developing
healthcare.
I
I
think
it's
absolutely
necessary
if
we're
going
to
make
significant
progress,
we
are
behind
the
curve
which
makes
mistakes
such
as
this
harder
to
identify
and
longer
to
investigate
when
they
are
identified.
This
deputy
protecting
officer
is
a
prerequisite
to
so
many
of
the
issues
that
face
a
healthcare
system,
deputy
presiding
officers.
In
many
way.
In
many
ways
scotland
has
been
at
the
forefront
of
the
drive
to
change
the
way
in
which
mesh
is
presented
to
patients
as
a
solution.
I
I
From
the
point
where
alex
neil
took
the
what
looked
like
decisive
action
and
calling
for
that
moratorium
on
the
procedure,
there
seems
to
have
been
a
reluctance
by
the
scottish
government
to
respond
with
any
urgency.
Six
years
is
too
long.
Deputy
president
officer
and
after
all,
mr
whittle's
just
closing
up
six
years
is
too
long,
deputy
presiding
officer
and
after
all,
if
the
covert
crisis
has
taught
us
anything
as
if
there
is
a
will
to
move,
it
can
be
done
swiftly.
I
J
Over
many
years,
the
scottish
government
has
been
quick
to
respond
to
the
cumberland's
report
to
demonstrating
its
continued
commitment
to
women's
health
during
this
covert
19
pandemic,
and
the
cabinet
secretary
has
taken
measures
to
support
women
with
less
complicated
mesh
complications,
including
provision
of
a
1
million
pound
support
fund
and
set
up
the
complex
mesh
removal
service,
supported
by
more
than
1.3
million
pounds
of
scottish
government
funding.
However,
this
must
involve
patient
choice
following
establishment
of
the
west
of
scotland
endometriosis
unit
last
year.
J
Every
single
day,
many
women
have
been
encouraged
by
society
to
feel
like
they
just
have
to
go
on
with
it,
not
because
they
want
to
be
hard
on
themselves
or
trivialize
their
own
situation,
because
some
males
have
trivialized,
often
very
distressing
conditions
and
concentrating
on
other
things
is
the
only
way
for
some
woman
to
get
through
the
day
and
when
it
comes
to
the
impact
of
medically
induced
conditions
on
either
women
or
our
loved
ones.
Physical
pain
is
often
exacerbated
by
an
unwarranted
feeling
of
guilt.
J
None
of
these
women
are
to
blame.
They
trusted
medicine
and
their
doctors,
and
only
took
what
to
their
knowledge
at
the
time
was
the
best
course
of
action
in
the
review.
Baroness
cumberlage
and
her
panel
met
over
700
people
across
the
uk,
mostly
women,
often
accompanied
by
partners
other
family
members
and
sometimes
their
children.
It
can't
have
been
easy
for
participants
to
open
up
about
something
so
painful
and
personal,
but
they're
ready
to
help
others
I'd
admire
them
greatly
for
it.
J
Every
decision
to
have
anything
implanted
in
your
body
should
be
made
with
all
information
available.
I
should
want
to
remove
it
on
the
back
of
this
innovative
airship
project,
the
national
institute
for
health
and
care,
excellent
care
excellence
developed
their
own
pda
side.
Effects
of
medical
treatment
are
accepted
to
a
degree,
but
when
something
is
a
major
impact,
it's
not
acceptable
to
gloss
over
that,
and
this
is
why
it's
so
important
to
proper
systems
in
place.
J
I'm
a
member
and
former
community
of
the
cross
party
group
and
epilepsy
and,
of
course,
sodium
valproate,
has
been
a
regular
topic
of
discussion
over
the
years.
Well,
I'm
aware
that
is
much
less
prevalent
than
pelvic.
Mesh
complications
are
how
this
is
being
dealt
with,
provides
an
interesting
insight
into
how
we
gather
data
and
empower
patients
further.
J
If
a
woman
on
sodium
will
prohibit
falls
pregnant,
there's
a
10
chance,
the
child
will
have
a
physical
defect
and
thirty
to
forty
percent
chance,
the
child
will
have
developmental
issues
for
a
woman
of
child
bearing
age
to
be
prescribed,
sodium
valproate.
They
have
to
be
seen
by
an
epilepsy
specialist,
get
effective
contraception
and
be
seen
on
an
annual
basis
like
other
health
boards.
Nhs
here
chennai
in
2017,
immediately
implemented
nhs.
J
J
If
sodiumville
pro
is
the
only
effective
option
for
a
woman
of
childbearing
age,
she
must
always
be
given
effective
contraception,
or
at
least
the
choice
thereof
in
2014.
The
eu
medicines
agency
advised
that
clinicians
must
be
more
aware
of
the
impact
of
surrenville
pruitt,
which
led
to
the
mhra
advice
in
2018
that
it
couldn't
be
prescribed
to
women
of
childbearing
age
unless
they
were
compliant
with
the
prevent
programme.
J
Some
gps
now
no
longer
prescribed
sodium
valproate
to
any
patients,
meaning
some
who
might
benefit
from
this
epilepsy
drug.
Don't
get
it
last
september,
at
the
cross-party
group
in
epilepsy,
dr
ian
morrison
consultant
neurologist
nhst
side
described
how
helpful
gathering
data
for
our
national
epilepsy
register
can
be
for
such
purposes,
allowing
clinicians
to
see
how
many
patients
have
been
prescribed,
sodium
valproate,
who
was
female
their
age
and
then
contact
them
directly
without
the
database.
J
This
would
have
taken
weeks,
if
not
months,
many
patients
didn't
want
to
switch
from
sodiumville
pro
having
achieved
seizure
freedom
and
they
had
no
desire
to
extend
their
family
or
of
in
a
same-sex
relationship.
Only
two
came
to
the
clinic
because
they
considered
starting
a
family.
This
seems
an
effective
way
to
create
awareness
amongst
patients,
as
their
own
personal
circumstances
might
change,
while
they're
on
medication,
and
yet
others
can
still
benefit
from
the
drug
as
an
epilepsy
treatment.
A
similar
register
is
currently
being
piloted
by
nhs
creator.
Glasgow
and
clyde
personalized
support.
J
Calls
by
eplex
is
scotland's
chief
executive
leslie
young
to
make
a
national
register
rather
than
health,
beat
a
health
board
based
one
design
officer.
I
look
forward
to
seeing
fuller
progress
as
soon
as
possible
enough.
Scottish
government
are
helpful
to
do
what's
necessary
to
keep
patients
and
their
families
safe,
whether
from
soviet
as
inappropriate
use
of
sodium
valproate
or
mesh
implants.
K
K
This
has
been
illustrated
by
campaigns
to
achieve
free,
personal
care
in
international
development
and
animal
welfare,
but
the
campaign
to
support
the
women
who
have
faced
the
physical
and
psychological
harm
from
mesh
implants
is
a
prime
example
of
my
theme
today,
and
I
would
echo
donald
cameron
indeed
other
colleagues
who
have
praised
the
work
of
neil
finley
jackson,
carlo
and
alec
neal.
They
really
do
deserve
praise
and
congratulations
for
the
unswerving
support
and
dedication
to
this
campaign.
K
I
still
remember
presiding
officer
the
first
time
I
met
domestic
campaigners.
I
was
a
fresh-faced
newly
minted
convener
of
the
petitions
committee
in
advance
of
the
hearing.
I
had
value,
read
and
absorbed
the
brief
and
the
petition,
but
nothing
prepared
me
for
the
submission
by
the
mess
mesh
campaigners.
K
K
This,
of
course,
has
been
echoed
in
cambridge
review
when
a
patient
was
quoted
as
follows.
My
journey
to
find
a
surgeon
who
believed
that
my
current
health
situation
is
down
to
mess.
Complications
is
traipsing
through
treacle,
and
I
think
the
gmc
briefing
to
us
today
made
a
very
pertinent
point
when
they
argue
that
the
harrowing
experiences
of
patients
has
drawn
out
in
the
cumberland
review
are
the
stark
reminder
of
the
life-changing
harm
that
mesh
implants
can
cause.
K
It's
clear
to
me
that
patients
on
both
sides
of
the
border
have
felt
ignored
and
that's
not
acceptable
in
a
modern
fit
for
purpose
national
health
service.
Now,
poseidon
officer,
it's
easy
for
health
bureaucrats
to
watch
lyrically
about
shared
decision-making
and
informed
consent,
but
clearly
this
broke
down
in
the
mesh
scandal,
and
I
welcome
the
fact
that
the
gmc
have
commissioned
independent
research
on
the
subject
which
should
improve
practice
in
the
future.
K
K
K
We
have
found
that
the
health
care
systems
which
include
the
nhs,
the
private
providers,
the
regulators,
the
professional
bodies,
pharmaceutical
and
device
manufacturers
and
policy
makers,
is
disjointed,
siloed,
unresponsive
and
defensive.
The
general
findings
make
for
depressing
reading
and
other
members,
presiding
officer
have
mentioned
these
already.
K
The
general
systematic
failings
resulting
in
life-changing
harm
patients
ignored
a
culture
of
denial
manufacturers
motivated
by
profit,
speed
to
market
and
returns
to
shareholders,
rather
than
patient
safety,
a
case
of
checking
the
purse
before
the
pulse,
but
there
was
a
strong
and
well
argued
set
of
recommendations:
the
apology
to
patients,
patient
safety,
commissioner,
independent
regest
agency,
ex-graduate
payments
and
a
network
of
specialist
centres
to
provide
treatment,
care
and
advice
for
those
affected,
and,
of
course,
a
mess.
Registry
now
do
accept.
K
President
officer,
the
scottish
government
has
implemented
a
number
of
these
recommendations,
but
what
about
the
others?
So,
in
conclusion,
besides
officers,
I'm
conscious
of
time
this
afternoon,
I,
like
others,
will
not
forget
the
day
I
spent
with
the
mess
containers,
their
pain,
their
sorrow,
their
psychological
strain,
the
reduced
mobility,
their
serious
complications,
all
avoidable
now
scandal
is
a
word-
that's
often
misused,
but
in
my
mind
it's
not
misused
today,
not
in
connection
with
this
valiant
and
steadfast
group.
So
I
recommend-
and
I
commend
the
work
of
the
mesh
campaigners.
L
But
the
area
that
I
wanted
to
to
look
at
in
particular,
as
many
people
have
this
afternoon,
is
in
the
pelvis
pelvic
mesh
implants
and
what
that
has
what
the
consequences
have
of
that
have
been
for
many
many
patients
in
in
this
country,
and
I
stand
back
and
ask
how.
How
is
it
possible
that
this
could
have
gone
on
for
so
long
and
that
the
the
concerns
raised
and
the
voices
of
the
women's
had
gone
on
ignored
for
such
a
long
time?
L
In
2018.
Serena
williams
was
very
vocal
about
her
experience,
giving
birth
to
to
her
child
and
and
what
she
saw
as
as
the
complete
lack
of
medical
attention
to
her
concerns
during
a
childbirth
and-
and
she
was
very,
very
seriously
ill
and
suffering
from
thrombosis
and
virtually
had
to
beg
for
the
existence
she
needed
to
save
her
life
and
the
life
of
her
child.
L
Sorry,
the
royal
college
of
obstetricians
and
gynecologists
held
a
special
international
women's
day
event.
Looking
specifically
at
the
issue
of
inequalities
for
being
women
and
in
pointing
out
that
in
multiple
layers
of
hair
healthcare,
it
shows
that
how
essential
it
is
for
action
to
be
highlighting
and
address
to
tackle
the
disparities
that
are
literally
costing
lives.
The
main
focus
of
the
work
of
the
royal
college
of
obstetricians
gynecologists
women's
network,
was
to
ensure
that
women's
voices
are
heard
their
views
and
their
experiences
are
used
to
shape
education,
guidance
and
policies
around
their
care.
L
I
would
like
to
talk
about
something
that's
already
been
raised
by
school
hamilton
and
mr
cameron
as
well,
and,
and
that
is
a
someone
who's
forgotten
in
this
and
it's
one
of
my
constituents
who
won't
mention
by
name,
but
I
have
her
permission
to
talk
about
her
case
today,
and
it's
one
that
I
have
written
to
the
the
health
secretary
about
in
the
past.
In
2008,
my
constituent
suffered
complications
after
a
cesarean
section
and
contracted
a
nosocomic
chromium
infection
that
led
to
her
requiring
mesh
implants
to
rebuild
her
abdominal
wall.
L
A
very
young
woman
at
the
time
but
since
zlensen
has
has
exhibited
the
same
pain
and
the
discomfort
and
all
of
the
complications
that
we've
heard
about
today
and
from
the
mesh
that
she
believes
has
has
caused
her
her
issues
with
pain
and
terrible
chronic
pain.
At
the
moment,
as
she
repeatedly
asks
for
joint
gynecological
and
plastics
consultations
repeatedly
asked
to
be
seen
by
a
plastic
surgeon,
and
although
that
is
likely
to
happen
now,
she's
been
asking
since
2008,
and
only
now
is
getting
in
front
of
the
medical
professionals.
L
L
L
Sorry
so
so
this
is
something
if
my
hope
from
what
today
is
is.
I
hope
that
the
appointment
of
a
patient
safety
commissioner
will
ensure
that
no
one
is
left
behind
who
has
been
affected
by
these
issues
and
again
I
commend
all
of
those
women
who
have
fought
so
strongly
to
have
their
concerns.
Recognized
listens
to
if
anything.
This
is
about
never
ever
not
listening
to
the
patient
voice,
the
voice
of
the
women
who
have
been
affected
by
this.
Thank
you,
presiding
officer,.
M
M
However,
the
report
makes
for
incredibly
painful
reading.
It
tells
the
story
of
women
who
went
through
treatments
and
were
provided
with
medications
that
did
not
just
harm
them,
but
degraded
the
conditions
in
which
they
lived
their
lives.
As
the
report
puts
it,
we
met
so
many
women
with
limited
mobility
having
to
rely
on
a
wheelchair
or
crutches
to
move
around,
unable
to
sit
for
periods
of
time
unable
to
play
with
their
children
or
carry
their
grandchildren
living
daily.
M
M
I
commend
the
bravery
of
those
women
who
volunteered
to
speak
up
and
share
their
truths
for
without
them
the
real
extent
of
the
problem
would
have
been
obscured
for
some
time
to
come.
Now.
It's
also
clear
that
there
were
there
was
a
systematic
belligerence
on
the
part
of
those
dealing
with
patient
complaints
in
a
theme
that
runs
throughout
the
investigation.
M
So
we
can't
look
at
this
as
an
issue
around
a
few
practices
that
have,
for
the
most
part,
been
stopped.
The
scale
of
the
human
cost
demands
more
than
an
apology.
The
extent
to
which
complaints
and
requests
for
information
were
mishandled
means
that
the
response
has
to
be
considered
across
both
government
and
the
nhs.
M
Now
there
are
some
recommendations
that
can
be
enacted
by
the
scottish
government
without
needing
to
look
at
action
elsewhere
in
the
uk.
The
fourth
recommendation
regarding
separate
schemes
for
additional
treatment
would
be
particularly
helpful.
Our
amendment
falls
within
this,
although
I
will
discuss
that
at
a
later
detail
later.
M
Similarly,
the
fifth
recommendation
around
the
network
of
special
centers
for
treatment
and
the
seventh,
which
would
improve
the
data
available
to
audit
treatment
outcomes,
could
be
actioned
now
and
I
am
sure
all
parties
would
work
constructively
on
these
if
the
government
brought
forward
proposals
forward.
Yes,.
N
Minister,
thanks
very
much
just
wanted
to
correct
the
member
there.
She
said
that
we
would
consider
the
recommendations.
Scottish
government
says
we
the
recommendation,
somebody
accepting
the
conservatives,
jackson,
carlos
amendment
to
the
government
in
motion,
and
so
I'm
sure
the
member
will
welcome
that.
But
I
wonder
in
the
spirit
of
cross-party
working
will
she
work
with
her
colleagues
in
westminster
and
ask
the
uk
government
to
also
accept
these
recommendations,
as
badness
cumberland
has
put
forward.
M
Thank
you
very
much
that
intervention,
and
I
did
welcome
the
fact
that
the
minister
and
scottish
government
were
accepting
these
recommendations
and
some
had
already
been
actioned,
and
I
will
work
with.
I
will
speak
to
my
colleagues
in
westminster
to
see
where
they
are
with
the
report
and
what
the
recommendations
are
going
to
be
from
that
as
well,
and
there
is
cross-pilot
support
across
the
chamber.
M
Our
amendment
intends
to
ensure
that
women
who
require
corrective
surgery
have
it
performed
by
a
surgeon.
They
trust
and
do
not
suffer
financial
penalty
for
it.
This
represents
not
just
a
sensible
step
forward
in
terms
of
treatment,
but
would
also
send
a
message
to
those
affected
that
we
are
committed
to
doing
right
by
them.
M
There
has
been
some
debate
around
the
role
of
surgeons
from
overseas,
particularly
dr
veronicas,
as
has
been
mentioned
by
other
speakers
today,
and
I
too
would
urge
the
health
secretary
to
redouble
her
efforts
to
get
him
here
and,
if
that's
not
possible,
allow
the
women
to
go
to
him
for
the
sake
of
the
women
who
feel
let
down
in
their
interactions
with
the
nhs.
So
far,
our
amendment
seeks
to
address
a
fundamental
issue
as
we
will
try
to
move
forward,
and
I
know
that
I've
heard
that
parties
across
the
chamber
will
support
it.
M
Presiding
officer,
the
cumberland
report
and
its
conclusions
are
not
easy
to
read,
but
they
shouldn't
be.
They
should,
however,
focus
our
minds
on
the
action
that
must
be
taken
now
to
ensure
that
circumstances
that
led
to
the
disastrous
side,
effects
of
medications
and
treatments
cannot
be
the
case
again
to
ensure
that
the
women
who
had
the
courage
to
speak
out
after
suffering,
life-changing
harms
received
the
best
possible
care
in
the
months
ahead.
Thank
you.
O
P
Thank
you
very
much,
presiding
officer.
I
welcome
the
opportunity
to
speak
in
this
debate
today
and
I
particularly
welcome
the
news
the
cabinet
secretary
has
established
such
a
positive
dialogue
with
baroness
cumberland,
whose
report
is
so
welcome.
My
remarks
today
are
about
sodium
valpre,
a
drug
which
has
had
devastating
effects
on
some
of
my
constituents.
P
P
I
followed
the
campaign
on
mesh
implants,
ably
led
by
colleagues
across
this
parliament
and
and
those
brave
women
and
who
have
been
praised
today.
Quite
rightly,
the
sodium
vibration
has
received
less
attention,
but
I
hope
that
after
cumberland
and
after
today's
debate
that
will
change,
I
know
that
my
constituents,
charlie
and
leslie
bethan,
and
who
have
recently
formed
the
scottish,
do
no
harm.
Valprap
group
are
determined
to
change
this.
P
These
families
deserve
nothing
less.
As
someone
who
remembers
the
scandal
of
thalidomide
in
the
1970s,
I
find
it
shameful
that
a
similar
scandal
can
occur
as
if
no
lessons
had
been
learned
at
all
sodium
vape,
as
others
have
explained,
as
an
anti-epilepsy
drug,
which
is
also
prescribed
for
bipolar
disorder
and
occasionally
migraine
it
can
cause
spina,
bifida
and
malformations
of
the
face
skull
limbs,
heart,
kidney
urinary
tract
and
sexual
organs.
P
A
lady
I
spoke
to
outside
the
parliament
today
lost
her
baby
daughter
at
the
age
of
six
months
due
to
a
heart
defect
and
had
other
children
with
developmental
disorders.
It's
expected.
It's
estimated
that
30
to
40
percent
of
affected
children
have
delayed
development
learning,
disability
and
autism
spectrum
disorders.
P
These
statistics
that
I
quote
on
birth
defects
appear
on
the
2018
nhs
leaflet,
which
informs
mothers
of
child
bearing
age
who
are
receiving
epilepsy
treatment,
and
I
was
I
was
shocked
that
it
was
only
in
2018
that
this
advice
was
given.
Baroness
cumberland
has
stated
that
sodium
valpra
has
been
licensed
in
the
uk
since
1972
it
was
known
from
the
very
beginning.
She
says
that
it
is
harmful
to
unborn
children.
No
one
disputes
that
she
said
yet.
Even
today,
hundreds
of
women
who
are
taking
valprap
become
pregnant
without
being
aware
of
the
risks.
P
Leslie
young
chief
executive
of
epilepsy,
scotland
has
also
said
clinical
trials
in
the
1970s,
clearly
documented
fetal
abnormalities
and
animals
as
a
concern.
Yet
it
continued
to
be
dis
prescribed
to
women
for
over
40
years.
She
says
often
with
little
or
no
discussion
about
the
associated
risks
and,
of
course,
families
affected
often
have
the
double
difficulty
of
coping
with
children
with
significant
care
needs.
P
While
the
mother
has
her
own
medical
issues,
epilepsy
scotland
said
that
despite
the
pregnancy
prevent
program,
mothers
are
still
not
getting
the
information
they
need
and,
like
kenny
gibson,
I
back
the
charity's
call
for
a
national
epilepsy
database
along
the
lines
he
described.
Although
I
do
welcome
the
progress
that
has
been
made.
P
This
is
also
the
view
of
the
scottish
valpit
group
formed
by
my
constituents,
who
are,
however,
very
pleased
with
the
announcement
of
the
patient
safety
commissioner
made
by
the
first
minister
in
the
programme
for
government.
I
know
they'll
also
take
comfort
from
the
cabinet
secretary's
apology
on
behalf
of
the
government
today
and
her
acceptance
of
baroness
cumberland's
recommendations.
P
P
Here,
some
travel
to
manchester
to
see
a
neuropsychologist
and
without
proper
diagnosis
they
can't
have
appropriate
care
pathways
and
some
of
those
damage
before
birth
will
never
live
independently.
So
care
is
of
vital
importance
and
the
group
are
keen
that
their
needs
are
considered
by
the
review
into
adult
social
care.
They
also
point
out
that
for
younger
children,
it's
important
that
they
have
a
diagnosis
to
access,
appropriate
educational
support.
P
A
recommendation
three
of
the
report
asked
for
a
redress
agency
and
it's
absolutely
shocking
that
a
legal
case
involving
sudo
invalid
victims
in
england
collapsed
when
the
complainants
lost
legal
aid.
These
people
have
absolutely
no
hope
against
such
a
giant
pharmaceutical
company
and
the
scottish
group
recognized
that
regulation
is
reserved.
But
if
a
redress
agency
is
not
established
at
uk
level,
they
asked,
if
there's
anything,
that
we
can
do
in
scotland
to
bring
those
responsible
to
account,
because
clearly
someone
is
responsible
and
it's
not
the
mothers
who
took
these
drugs.
P
I
want
to
finish
by
quoting
from
the
british
medical
journal
editorial
published
after
the
do.
No
harm
report
was
published.
It
said
what
the
cumberland
team
has
flagged
is
a
stubborn
flaw
that
lies
at
the
heart
of
the
practice
of
medicine.
It
is
often
called
culture,
but
this
type
of
embedded
attitude
seems
to
go
beyond
culture
beyond
fear
of
liability
and
beyond
the
profit
motive.
P
O
Thank
you.
Can
I
say
to
members
remaining
whether
back
ventures
or
closing
speeches
you'll
all
be
given
your
full
time,
because
presiding
officers
have
agreed
later,
take
a
motion
to
extend
the
debate
till
10
past
five.
So
not
to
worry,
though,
we're
running
over
slightly
in
this
debate.
You
will
be
given
your
full
summing
up
time
and
open
debate
time,
alexander
stewart,
followed
by
willy
coffee.
Q
Thank
you,
deputy
presiding
officer.
I
am
grateful
of
the
opportunity
of
participating
in
today's
debate
on
the
recommendations
from
the
report
of
independent
medicines
and
medical
devices
safety
review.
We
all
accept
and
acknowledge
that
medical
professionals
face
incredibly
difficult
situations
on
a
daily
basis.
The
current
times
we
are
living
through
during
this
covert
19
pandemic
has
brought
that
sharply
into
focus
for
us
once
again.
Q
What
we
all
have
the
right
to
expect
that
the
benefits
of
any
treatment
which
we
are
recommended
will
greatly
overweigh
any
associated
costs.
Clearly
the
devastation
in
the
cases
of
mesh
implants.
This
was
not
the
case
and
the
immeasurable
harm
that
has
been
caused
to
these
individual
women,
and
that
is
why
it
is
vitally
important
that
we
acknowledge
this
today
and
I
welcome
the
fact
that
the
report
by
barnes
cumbria
indicates
first
do
no
harm
is
a
particularly
appropriate
one
for
that.
Q
It
is
shocking,
deputy
presiding
officer
that
this
practice
was
allowed
to
go
on
for
so
long,
particularly
given
that
it
was
continued
and
we
saw
in
excess
of
a
thousand
women
still
having
this
treatment.
After
the
then
cabinet
secretary
of
health,
alex
neal
requested
that
it
would
be
suspended
in
2014..
Q
These
women
were
poorly
advised
and
not
given
the
appropriate
information
to
make
a
genuine
and
informed
choice
about
whether
to
have
the
procedure
at
all
and
in
some
cases
women
were
not
even
aware
that
they
were
having
mesh
implanted
in
their
bodies.
It
is
clear
that
there
must
have
been
a
comprehensive
and
systematic
feeling
in
this
part
of
the
health
system.
Like
many
members
in
this
chamber,
I
have
met
many
of
the
survivors
of
mission
plants
and
I
pay
tribute
to
them
all
for
their
courage.
Q
The
complications
that
they
experienced
are
wide-ranging,
as
well
as
chronic
pain,
mobility
issues
and
other
physical
issues.
Many
women
have
suffered
difficulties
at
work
of
a
personal
life
and
from
these
procedures
their
stories
make
for
difficult
listening
to,
but
each
survivor
is
incredibly
brave
and
resilient
for
that.
As
we
have
heard
today,
we
first
acknowledge
the
pain
and
that
pain
and
that
hurt
for
these
women
has
had
to
be
endured,
and
that
cannot
be
taken
away,
but
we
can
and
must
learn
lessons
to
ensure
that
we
support
survivors
so
that
this
does
not
happen
again.
Q
Indeed,
it's
incredibly
important,
while
being
accountable
to
the
patient,
that
the
new
commissioner
is
completely
independent
and
should
not
be
afraid
to
speak
out
and
see
the
truth,
while
many
msps
and
others
have
spoken
out
in
particular
issues,
patients
deserve
a
champion
specifically
tasked
to
ensuring
that
their
voices
are
heard
going
forward,
while
the
commitment
made
by
the
government
is
to
put
funding
aside
for
the
national
mesh
program.
I
very
much
welcome
that,
but
I
hope
it
is
and
will
become
much
more
okay.
Q
It
cannot
be
right
that
surgeons,
removing
mesh
implants
from
survivors
could
be
the
very
same
who
implanted
them
in
the
first
place,
women
who
have
had
mesh
implanted
understandably
have
no
confidence
or
trust
in
these
surgeons
and
as
a
responsibility
for
going
forward.
These
women
should
have
the
right
to
have
these
implants
removed
by
a
surgeon
of
their
choice
and
by
one
whom
they
can
trust.
Q
Q
I
hope
that
we
can
all
mind
and
ensure
that
we
support
that
the
mental
health
efforts
of
individuals,
because
it's
not
just
the
physical
problems
that
they
have
suffered
just
before.
I
conclude,
whilst
there
are
many
people
who
have
championed
hard
for
justice
for
these
women
affected
in
treatment,
both
within
this
chamber
and
outside
deputy
design
officer,
I
pay
tribute
to
my
colleague,
jackson
carlo.
He
has
been
a
champion
for
these
women
and
has
ensured
that
the
right
questions
have
been
asked
and
that
the
voices
were
heard
within
this
parliament.
Q
Q
R
Thanks
very
much
president
officer,
we
have
all
had
constituents
affected
by
these
issues
and
I'd
like
to
share
a
little
of
the
experience
by
one
local
family,
with
their
permission
of
course.
Firstly,
I'm
delighted
that
the
scottish
government
welcomes
the
recommendations
of
the
cumberland
report
and
is
committed
to
the
establishment
of
the
patient
safety,
commissioner
in
scotland,
mentioned
by
so
many
members
today.
R
This
will
be
welcome
news
to
my
constituents.
The
mackerel
family,
whose
daughter,
claire's
life,
has
been
adversely
affected
by
sodium
valproate
one
of
the
key
areas
covered
in
the
review.
The
mackerel
family
has
long
been
actively
involved
in
attempts
to
get
full
recognition
to
the
damaging
effects
this
prescribed
drug
has
and
continues
to
have
on
families.
R
R
I
must
thank
mr
and
mrs
mccarron
and
especially
clear
for
sharing
their
experience
and
informing
the
cumberland
review
so
thoroughly
and
poignantly
of
the
consequences
this
drug
has
had
on
lives
and
those
of
similar
families
across
scotland
in
the
uk.
This
is
the
culmination
of
years
of
battling
for
the
macarons
to
be
heard.
R
Their
motivation
throughout
these
long
years
has
been
to
stop
other
families
from
being
harmed
and
to
obtain
financial
and
care
support
for
their
daughter,
claire
and
people
like
her
the
amount
of
time
and
effort.
This
family
has
dedicated
in
trying
to
redress
the
lack
of
knowledge
surrounding
the
effects
of
sodium
valproate
and
to
highlight
the
need
for
care
and
support
for
those
who
bear
its
consequences
is
quite
remarkable.
R
Sodium
valpate
has
done
this
farm
a
significant
harm,
and
it
is
my
sincere
hope
that,
as
is
recommended
by
baroness
cumberland,
the
state
and
manufacturers
have
a
moral
responsibility
to
provide
ex
gracia
payments
to
those
who
have
experienced
avoidable
damage.
From
the
interventions
we
have
reviewed,
I
would
like
to
extend
thanks
to
the
macaro
family,
who
have
never
given
up
their
fight
to
obtain
recognition
of
the
damage
sodium
valpra
did
during
caroline's
pregnancy.
R
President
officer.
Over
the
last
few
years,
I've
been
approached
by
several
constituents
who
have
also
experienced
transvaginal
mesh
complications,
and
I
also
met
some
of
them
like
so
many
other
members
in
parliament.
In
2017.,
these
women
described
their
experiences
as
life-altering
telling
heart-telling
harrowing
stories
of
excruciating
pain
having
to
give
up
their
jobs,
which
leads
on
to
difficulties,
claiming
benefits
and
relationships
with
partners
breaking
down.
R
R
And
I
welcome
the
cabinet
secretary's
request
to
the
national
services,
scotland,
to
establish
a
hold
down
of
humanities,
to
establish
a
national
designated
service
for
complex
mesh
removal
for
those
who
require
specialist
surgery
to
mitigate
complications
of
their
surgery.
Happy
to
take
an
intervention
for
spring
preservation.
C
Thanks
for
coffee
very
much
very
briefly,
please
the
letter
I've
had
from
a
that
I've
got
dr
veronica
sent
to
the
cabinet
secretary
says.
For
clarity's
sake,
I
have
never
received
a
written
offer
from
the
first
minister
yourself,
the
scottish
cmao
or
any
other
government
or
nhs
official
I've
taken
the
project
partners
that
you
appointed
at
their
word
and
have
been
disappointed.
My
original
offer
to
come
to
scotland
to
help
messenger
women
is
the
only
offer
that
ever
existed.
R
Thanks,
I
mean
I
can't
respond
to
that,
mr
finley.
Only
to
let
the
cabinet
secretary
say
what
she
said
in
her
opening
remarks
to
you,
and
perhaps
you
can
address
it
in
the
winding
up.
Finally,
in
my
remarks,
presiding
officer,
great
thanks
are
due
to
baroness
cumberland
review
team
for
listening
to
families
like
the
macarons
and
for
making
the
nine
recommendations
which
form
the
basis
of
more
work,
to
come,
and
also
to
the
sodium
valve
advisory
group
members
who
listen
to
the
concerns
of
patient
groups.
R
O
S
This
is
a
story
of
pain,
ignored
of
complaints,
not
believed
of
avoidable
harm
of
women
had
been
listened
to
one
of
a
culture
of
an
nhs
with
system
failures.
They
don't
seem
very
easy
to
correct
closed
doors,
a
lack
of
transparency,
women's
health,
destroyed
life
destroyed
and
a
lack
of
confidence
in
a
system
to
fix
it
if
it
weren't
for
the
powerful
efforts
of
neil
findlay
jackson,
carlo
and
alec
neal.
I
would
not
know
about
these
women,
yet
it
is
one
of
the
most
disturbing
disturbing
health
cases.
S
S
It
also
examines
the
experiences
of
women
who
were
given
the
home
pregnancy
test,
shemados
associated
birth
with
birth
defects
and
miscarriages
that
jonah
calvin
has
talked
about,
and
the
anti-epileptic
drug
sodium
vapor
weight,
which
causes
physical
malformations,
autism
and
developmental
delays
in
many
children
when
it
is
taken
by
mothers
during
their
pregnancy,
unbelievable
kath,
sansom,
who
founded
sling
the
mesh
campaign,
as
well
with
the
recommendations.
But
she
says
the
report
is
hard
hitting
harrowing
and
recognizes
the
total
failure
in
patient
safety
regulation
and
oversight
in
the
uk.
S
It
also
makes
very
clear
that
our
medical
establishment
is
deeply
entrenched
in
institutional
denial
and
misogyny
and
to
me,
this
statement
by
cath
is
hugely
telling
of
the
nature
of
the
failure
of
system.
Failure
to
these
women
and
it's
a
very
heartward
problem
june
rei's
story
is
also
typical.
She
had
vaginal
menstrual
pair
to
treat
prolapse
an
incontinence
in
2009,
and
she
said
I
did
have
some
concerns
ahead
of
surgery,
but
was
repeatedly
told
that
there
was
nothing
to
worry
about
the
complication
started.
S
Four
years
later,
she
said
I
could
feel
my
body
deteriorating,
and
sometimes
the
pain
is
so
severe
that
I
wanted
to
pass
out.
When
I
told
gps
and
surgeons,
they
didn't
believe
me,
and
they
looked
at
me
like
I
was
mad,
and
this
is
fundamental
to
understanding
the
failures
of
what
happened
to
these
women,
that
women
were
not
believed,
and
sadly,
research
suggests
that
women's
pain
is
taken
much
less
seriously
by
doctors
than
men's
is
the
gender
pain
gap.
S
She
said
the
words
defensive,
dismissive
and
arrogant,
cropped
up
with
alarming
frequency,
and
some
clinicians
reacted,
ranging
from
it's
all
in
your
head.
Oh,
these
are
women's
issues
or
is
your
time
of
life
or
anything,
and
everything
women
suffer
is
perceived
as
a
precursor
to
pre-symptomatic
phase
of
that
menopause.
In
conclusion,
presiding
officer,
I
think
the
conflicts
of
interest
of
some
aspects
of
the
medical
profession
and
the
financial
links
between
the
pharmaceutical
industry
was
highlighted
in
the
report
and
it
states
all
that
we
have
heard
leads
us
to
conclude.
S
S
She
said
it
is
system-wide
and
therefore
there
must
be
an
immediate
priority
state
to
give
these
women
the
healthcare
that
they
demand
and
the
healthcare
that
they
trust
whatever
that
may
be-
and
I
do
think,
there's
work
for
our
equalities
minister
to
look
at
the
way
that
women
were
treated
an
attitude
that
is
unacceptable
in
any
public
service,
and
I
hope
that
we
can
work
together
with
ministers
with
the
women
those
affected
by
it,
to
make
sure
that
this
never
ever
happens
again.
Thank
you,
presiding
officer,.
O
T
You
presiding
officer
first
do
no
harm.
That's
the
title
of
baroness
cumberland's
review
and
recently
published
report
into
three
life-changing
medical
interventions
that
have
harmed
women
beyond
measure,
as
we've
heard
this
afternoon,
the
hormone
pregnancy
test,
primados
the
anti-epileptic
drugs,
thorium
valproate
and
surgical
mesh
implants,
which
have
been
a
long-standing
source
of
huge
concern
and
controversy
for
many
sufferers
in
scotland
and
throughout
the
uk.
T
Before
I
was
elected
in
2016.,
presiding
officer,
we
now
know
that
terrible
harm
was
done
by
these
drugs
and
treatment
the
drugs
and
that
invasive
damaging
mess
treatment
should
never
have
been
given
to
women.
Collectively,
thousands
of
lives
have
been
ruined
and
an
entire
generation
is
paying
the
price
of
clinical
mismanagement.
T
Baroness
cumber,
baroness
julia
cumberlage's
review
considered
a
range
of
matters,
including
whether
any
further
action
is
needed
relating
to
the
complaints
around
prima
dos
sodium
valproate
and
surgical
mess.
The
process
is
followed
by
the
nhs
and
its
regulators
when
patients
report
a
problem
and
how
to
make
sure
communication
between
the
different
groups
involved
is
good,
which
of
course,
until
now
has
been
entirely
non-existent.
T
The
reviews
also
made
recommendations
regarding
the
three
specific
interventions,
but
also
about
how
the
health
care
system
can
improve
its
response
to
concerns
raised
about
other
medicines
and
medical
devices
in
the
future
presiding
officer.
The
fact
that
these
medical
outrages
affect
women
is
sadly
not
surprising.
I
entirely
agree
with
alison
johnson,
claire
adams
and
paulie
mcneil
and
others
on
this.
T
Thankfully,
societal
and
clinical
attitudes
are
finally
changing,
but
it
really
shouldn't
have
taken
so
much
work
and
suffering
of
victims
to
get
to
where
they
are
now,
where
we
are
now
presiding
officer
for
two
and
a
half
years,
barnes
cumberlage
and
our
team
traveled
across
the
uk,
and
met
more
than
700
women
and
their
families
to
find
out
the
impact
these
medical
devices
had
when
what
they
heard
was
harrowing
relationships,
destroyed,
lost
homes,
careers,
broken
and
financial
ruin.
Some
even
face
their
children
being
taken
into
care.
T
T
Presiding
officer,
mesh
sufferers
in
scotland
have
been
through
too
much
their
fight
for
justice
and
recognition
should
never
have
had
to
happen
on
top
of
their
disabling
health
issues.
The
mental
exhaustion
of
battling
against
the
system,
which
was
for
a
long
time
for
far
too
long
in
denial,
must
have
been
completely
overwhelming
during
my
time
as
an
elected
politician,
all
of
mcelroy
and
elaine
holmes
have
been
at
the
forefront
of
that
battle,
and
my
admiration
for
their
strength
is
a
constant
source
of
amazement
to
me.
T
I
must
also
mention
the
great
work
done
by
the
mexican
tears
neil
finley,
alec,
neal
and
jackson
carlo,
by
highlighting
their
play
play
in
this
chamber
and
beyond,
thanks
to
should
go
to
campaigning
journalist,
marion
scott
who's,
been
with
them
every
step
of
the
way,
unflinching
in
our
determination
to
help
them
achieve
justice,
presiding
officer.
There
isn't
enough
time
to
go
over
all
the
watershed
moments
in
the
mesh
surface
plate
and
but
we've
heard
many
of
them
today
so
where?
T
Where
are
we
now
and
are
we
finally
getting
there
when
it
comes
to
some
sort
of
reparation?
I
was
pleased
to
hear
the
cabinet
secretary
outline
the
progress
that
has
been
made.
The
scottish
government
have
implemented
one
of
the
recommendations
in
the
cumberland
review
by
appointing
a
patient
safety
commissioner
for
scotland,
announcing
the
program
for
government
last
week,
and
I
support
alec
neal's
proposal,
that
of
on
the
independence
of
that
post.
T
This
is
a
very
welcome
initiative,
but
sadly,
one
that
the
uk
government
has
yet
to
ratify,
there's
also
an
established
1
million
pound
mesh
fund
open
now
for
sufferers
to
help
with
ongoing
problems
related
to
their
conditions.
Scotland's
new
national
mesh
service
is
a
huge
step
forward
for
campaigners
and
one
that's
been
long
fought
for.
However,
I
was
unaware
of
the
claims
being
made
by
neil
findlay
today
and
we'd
like
to
find
out
more
about
that.
T
Nevertheless,
I
hope
the
cumberland
report
will
act
as
a
watershed,
and
women
will
be
listened
to
and
heard
because
this
is
a
human
rights
issue
for
women
and
a
humanitarian
issue
and
one
that
all
of
us
must
believe
is
finally
being
addressed
and
that
the
courage
of
all
the
women
affected
by
drugs
they
should
not
have
been
given
or
treatment.
They
should
never
have
been
subjected
to
will
be
recognized
and
their
fight
will
help
generations
of
women
to
come.
Thank
you.
U
Thank
you
proceeding
officer.
I
want
to
start
with
others.
I've
done
by
thanking
jackson,
carla
newfoundland,
for
their
efforts
in
championing
women
who
have
been
reflected
by
mesh
implants,
but
most
people
aren't
like
women
campaigners,
the
mesh
survivors,
the
matter,
I'm
raising
this
afternoon,
I've
written
to
the
cabinet
secrets
regarding
my
constituent
surgery
in
2014
I'll,
not
name
them.
However,
the
issues
they've
raised,
I
think
we've
heard
right
across
the
chamber
here
this
afternoon,
a
heart
consultant
at
that
time
insisted
my
concession
was
not
receiving
mesh,
but
rather
tape.
U
Indeed
consultant
just
last
year,
in
fact
remained
adamant
that
actually,
at
that
time
the
scottish
had
not
sought
to
spend
mesh
implants.
Both
these
assertions
were
simply
not
true
at
a
follow-up
meeting
with
another
clinical
clinician
ahead
of
my
constituent
surgery.
They
raised
concerns
over
the
procedure.
That
is
the
other
clinician
raised.
Concerns
over
the
procedure
suggest
that
my
constituent
thinks
carefully
ahead
of
agreeing
that
procedure.
U
My
constituent
feels
clearly
misled
and
misinformed
by
her
consultant,
hardly
surprising
than
that
women
feel
so
badly
laid
down
will
struggle
to
have
confidence
in
any
national
pelvic
mesh
removal
service.
I
therefore
support
jackson,
carlos
amendment,
which
states
that
this
must
include
the
early
prospect.
The
fuel
transfer
vaginal
mesh
removal
surge
has
been
undertaken
by
surgeons
who
enjoy
the
full
confidence
of
the
women
affected,
fully
funded
by
the
nhs.
U
That
brings
me
on
to
some
of
the
points
raised
by
neil
finley.
My
constituent
is
asked
as
other
mesh
campaigning.
Women
have
also
a
number
of
questions,
and
mr
findlay
mentioned
some
of
those
this
afternoon
as
well.
I
was
asked
to
ask:
can
you
find
out
who
will
be
running
this
new
mesh
center
and
the
names
of
the
surgeons?
Doing
removal
of
phil
tvto?
U
My
constitutional
constraints,
consulted
from
2014
is
part
of
that
team.
I
was
asked
what
additional
training,
if
any,
have
they
received
in
mesh
removal
and
who
trained
them
in
the
fuel
removal
process.
How
many
tvto
removals
have
been
done
in
the
past
five
years
and
have
lost
how
many
were
full
removals?
U
How
many
patients
found
it
successful
and
how
many
we
consider
it
to
have
failed
now?
Mr
findlay
calls
for
the
whole
the
development
of
the
special
service
until
these
questions
have
been
answered.
That
might
be
actually
a
point,
because
I
suggest
that
many
of
the
women
may
not
engage
with
the
new
specialist
service
unless
these
questions
are
answered
anyway.
U
I
would
therefore
ask
the
level
of
detail
that
my
constitution
and
others
can
expect.
As
the
scotum
addresses
the
questions
raised.
My
constituent
following
surgery
had
substantial
and
almost
immediate
health
issues.
She
struggled
to
be
taken
seriously,
listened
to
and
not
simply
dismissed.
That's
a
common
theme.
I
think
across
the
chamber
this
afternoon
and
did
my
constituent
felt
that
lies
in
the
misinformation
continued
throughout.
U
They
also
believe
they
continue
to
get
conflicting
information
on
the
one
hand,
told
that
they've
had
tape
and
not
mesh
another
hand,
tool
that
tape
can
be
removed
only
to
discover
that
this
would
be
a
clip
and
a
partial
removal.
These
themes
are
fairly
consistent
in
all
the
stories
that
are
in
the
public
domain.
I
would
make
them
actually
welcome
more
information
of
the
case
record
review,
which
will
be
carried
out
for
mesh
injured
women
that
we've
heard
about
this
afternoon.
That
will
be
really
important
building
up
trust.
U
I
feel
I
actually
do
commend
the
speedy
action
of
gene
freeman
on
responding
to
powerful
cumberland's
report,
accepting
the
recommendation
for
a
patient
safety
commissioner,
the
one
million
pound
for
mesh
survivors
and
the
steps
taken
to
develop
a
national
mesh
removal
service
and
for
the
ongoing
commitment
to
continue
to
engage
with
barney's
cumberland.
These
are
all
vitally
important.
I
suggest,
though,
that
that's
probably
a
starting
point.
However,
I'd
like
to
finish
by
urging
the
nhs
and
scottish
government
telemetry
survivors
to
make
an
informed
choice
over
treatment
where
possible.
U
I
don't
know
how
we
do
that,
be
that
dr
vernick
is
performing
mesh
removal
and
supporting
aftercare,
that's
the
important
thing
and
supporting
aftercare
in
scotland
or
somewhere
else
or
through
the
building
of
confidence
in
the
national
complex
mesh
removal
service.
It's
what
works
for
the
women
who
are
victims.
U
That
is
the
underlying
and
most
powerful
aspect
that
we're
debating
today
and
actually
in
that
we'll
get
complete
cross
party
agreement
by
government
by
opposition.
What
we're
doing
is
mapping
out
together
how
best
to
get
there,
and
I
thank
you,
president
office,
for
getting
the
opportunity
to
speak
in
this
afternoon's
debates.
U
O
F
F
We've
been
debating
this
issue
in
this
parliament
for
a
long
time
and
we're
not
finished
yet,
and
it's
absolutely
essential
that
we
prioritize
time
in
this
chamber
until
we
are
satisfied
that
everything
that
can
be
done
has
been
done
for
the
mesh
survivors
and
all
impacted.
I
share
others
frustrations.
F
I
think
there
have
been
so
many
excellent
contributions
in
this
debate
that
I
will
struggle
to
to
refer
to
them
all.
I
agree
wholeheartedly
with
alex
neal
that
their
the
the
patient
safety
commissioner
should
be
a
wholly
independent
appointment
with
the
power
that
will
make
a
difference.
As
alexander
stewart
said,
a
champion
for
patience.
F
Brian
whittle
pointed
out
that
this
is
not
the
first
time
we
debated
mish
and
it
absolutely
will
not
be
the
last
now
I
noted
when
we
were
debating
this
issue
in
2017
in
response.
What
was
in
response
to
a
statement
that
98
of
the
women
in
the
report
said
that
their
consent
to
mesh
surgery
was
not
informed
and
70
said
their
surgeon
wasn't
open
to
the
idea
that
mesh
was
the
cause
of
their
symptoms,
and
I
think
there
is
much
to
debate
in
that
idea
of
informed
consent.
F
What
does
it
mean?
It
means
that
permission
is
granted
by
the
patient
in
full
knowledge
of
the
possible
consequences,
and
I
think
many
of
us
across
the
chamber
are
aware
that
the
women
did
not
understand
what
the
potential
consequences
were
and
then
going
forward.
I'd
be
really
grateful
if
the
cabinet
secretary
could
elaborate
on
what
information
women
might
expect
to
have
in
future
in
relation
to
any
procedure
that
they
may
be
going
to
have
it's
not
always
enough
to
be
offered
a
a
booklet.
F
Only
to
find
out
later
that
that
wasn't
the
case-
and
you
know
likewise,
we've
heard
today
if
women
who
were
never
told
if
they
affect
valproate,
could
have
on
their
unborn
children.
I'm
sure
we'd
all
agree
that
this
is
simply
unacceptable
and
it's
not
the
you
know,
despite
the
fact
that
it's
not
their
fault.
Many
of
the
women
heartbreakingly
spoke
to
the
review
of
their
guilt
about
the
terrible
toll
their
treatment
is
taken
on
their
relationships
and
family
life.
F
So
more
must
be
done
to
improve
health
literacy
and
to
ensure
that
the
benefits
and
risks
of
medical
interventions
are
explained
clearly
and
in
a
way
that
patients
can
understand
the
review
states
that
every
patient
should
be
able
to
stand
back,
look
at
their
patient
journey
and
say
I
recognize
my
handwriting
all
over
those
choices,
and
I
wonder
how
many
patients
in
scotland
can
do
that
today.
In
the
cases
we've
discussed
this
afternoon,
the
review
notes
that
there
remains
an
overriding
culture
in
parts
of
our
nhs.
F
If
doctor
knows
best
and
many
people
accessing
health
services
won't
feel
confident
enough
to
challenge
the
recommendations
of
their
clinicians
and
some
may
not
even
know
if
they
can.
So
I
would
be
interested
to
hear
what
action
the
scottish
government
will
take
to
emphasize
to
get
out
the
message
that
patient
care
should
be
the
result
of
a
conversation
one
in
which
they
participate
fully.
I
will
be
voting
for
jackson,
carlos
amendment
actually
I'll
be
voting
for
all
amendments
this
afternoon
and
jackson.
Carlos
amendment
is
absolutely
correct.
F
It's
imperative
that
the
mesh
survivors
have
access
to
full
mesh
removal
server
surgery
and
that
that's
provided
at
no
cost
to
them.
That's
the
very
least
they
deserve.
I
will
also
be
supporting
neil
finley's
amendment
and
a
temporary
suspension
of
the
development
of
the
removal
service,
because
it's
absolutely
essential
that
those
accessing
that
service
have
complete
trust
and
faith
in
those
who
will
be
undertaking
their
surgery.
I
do
appreciate
the
comments
the
cabinet
secretary
made
in
this
regard
about
two
processes
continuing
at
the
same
time,
but
there
can
be
no
more
errors.
F
These
women
have
put
up
with
enough.
They
have
to
have
whole
hearted
confidence
in
the
service.
I
think
joel
mcalpine
rightly
highly
enlightened.
The
challenges
for
those
seeking
redress,
particularly
when
you're
coming
up
against
large
bureaucratic
organizations
and
companies,
and
we
have
to
make
sure
that
the
strength
is
there
for
the
individual
to
challenge
those
decisions
and
impacts
on
lives
that
you
know,
quite
frankly,
have
been
devastating.
F
C
Thanks,
maybe
eight
years,
but
it's
been
an
excellent
debate
and
I
would
commend
claire
adamson
and
dave
stewart,
allison,
johnson,
alec,
cole,
hamilton,
polly,
mcneill
and,
of
course,
jackson,
carlo
and
alec
neil
in
their
speeches.
But
I
have
to
say
I
thought
the
best
speech
of
the
day
was
bob
dorsey's
speech.
It
was
an
absolutely
outstanding
contribution
to
today's
debate.
I
would
say:
primitives
and
sodium
valpra
caused
horrific
damage
to
children
and
light
mesh.
The
medical
establishment
led
by
the
big
pharmaceutical
companies
closed
ranks
and
denied.
There
was
a
problem.
C
We
saw
denial
and
cover-up
and
regulatory
failure,
governance
failure,
institutional
agreed,
professional
arrogance
and
all
the
time
profit
placed
before
people.
I
was
thinking
back
presiding
officer
to
2012
when
I
first
got
involved
in
this
campaign,
and
I'm
going
to
tell
you
something
that
the
president
officer
might
bulk
it.
C
But
that's
how
far
we've
traveled
since
2012
and
I
have
to
say
thank
you
to
the
campaign
and
journalist
marion
scott,
who
is
an
outstanding
tour
de
force
and
without
her
help
we
would
be
nowhere
near
where
we
are
today
and
every
one
of
those
women
who've
campaigned
and
pushed
us
at
every
opportunity.
Baroness
cumberland's
review
is,
I
think,
a
watershed.
C
C
Eight
years
to
bring
a
debate
to
this
chamber
simply
confirms
the
point
that
she
makes
about
glacial
progress
that
have
used
a
dominic
dickman
indictment
of
the
failings
in
this
system.
Across
all
three
areas.
There
were
similar
experiences
for
victims,
lack
of
information
to
make
informed
choices,
lack
of
awareness
of
who
to
complain
to
and
how
to
report
adverse
incidents.
A
struggle
to
be
heard
not
being
believed,
dismissive
and
unhelpful
attitudes
from
clinicians,
a
sense
of
abandonment,
life-changing
consequences
for
the
patient
and
friend
of
the
family,
and
we've
heard
about
from
various
speakers.
C
Family
breakdown,
loss
of
jobs,
financial
support
and
sometimes
housing,
loss
of
identity
and
a
feeling
of
self-worth,
persistent
feeling
of
guilt
and
children
becoming
their
mothers
and
siblings
carers.
Clinicians
untutored
in
the
skills
required
to
carry
out
proper
diagnosis
and
treatment,
clinicians,
not
knowing
how
to
learn
from
patients
and
accurate
and
altered
patient
records
and
a
lack
of
interest
in
monitoring
adverse
adverse
outcomes.
C
The
nine
recommendations
come
with
a
number
of
changes
attached
to
them,
and
the
government
has
already
issued
a
fulsome
apology
on
behalf
of
the
health
care
system
to
the
families
affected
by
pramador,
sodium
valpre
and
pelvic
mesh,
but
we've
heard
nothing
from
nhs
boards.
We've
had
no
apology
from
clinicians
or
the
regulator
or
the
manufacturers.
C
Where
is
their
apology
for
their
role
in
this?
The
government
has
agreed
to
a
patient
safety,
commissioner,
and
that
is
very
welcome
that,
but
that
person
must
carry
the
confidence
of
survivors
of
mass
primitives
and
sodium
vapor,
and
I
would
suggest
that
they
are
heavily
involved
in
the
recruitment
of
this
person.
I
think
alec
news
suggestion
is
very
good.
They
cannot
be
a
hand.
Pick
picked
place,
woman
or
man,
and
I
think
alex's
suggestions
are
a
sensible
way
forward.
C
But
my
greatest
concern
is
over
the
new
mesh
service.
I
desperately
desperately
want
it
to
work.
I
hope
it's
a
roaring
success,
but
I
don't
want
it
to
work
as
much
as
the
scottish
mesh
survivors
want
it
to
work.
They
could
have
the
opportunity
to
be
free
of
pain
and
suffering
and
the
constant
psychological
trauma
of
having
this
poison
in
their
body.
They
are
desperate
for
it
to
work,
but
I
fear
we're
about
to
repeat
the
very
mistakes
that
baroness
cumberland
has
just
identified.
C
None
of
the
scottish
mess
survivors
have
been
involved
in
the
design
of
the
service.
It's
been
a
hand-picked
few
done
through
the
alliance.
They
don't
they
scottish
mess.
Survivors
group,
don't
even
know
who
they
are.
I've
just
had
text
from
them
telling
me
that
the
review
identified
the
struggle
to
be
heard.
Clinicians
on
twitter
than
the
skills
required,
dismissive
and
unhelpful
attitudes,
failures
of
governance,
professional
arrogance,
failed
regulation,
defensiveness.
C
C
C
Take
the
input
from
the
women
they
are
knowledgeable.
They
are
talented,
they
are
intelligent
and
they
will
help
design
a
service
that
we
and
they
can
all
be
proud
of.
I
plead
with
members:
don't
allow
us
to
collectively
repeat
the
mistakes
that
baroness
cumberland
has
just
identified.
Let
us
do
no
harm.
O
O
V
Thank
you
very
much
deputy
presiding
officer,
and
can
I
say
this
is
the
first
closing
speech
I've
given
for
several
years
in
this
parliament.
I've
been
detained
in
other
ways
and
I'm
absolutely
delighted
to
be
able
to
contribute
to
such
an
outstanding
and
informed
debate
as
the
one
we've
had
this
afternoon
and
although
most
of
the
content
that
I'll
want
to
address
relates
to
the
whole
mesh
scandal
and
the
way
it
has
unfolded.
Can
I
thank
in
particular
kenny
gibson.
V
I
must
apologize
to
mr
gibson
he's
lectern
was
up
earlier
on
and
I
wasn't
sure
who
it
was,
and
I
did
ask
brian
whittle
if
it
was
christine,
graham
who
was
sitting
there,
which
may
be
the
first
time
that
you've
been
that
accident
has
been
made.
But
I'd
like
to
thank
kenny,
gibson
john
mcalpine
and
willie
coffey
for
bringing
him
the
issues
relating
to
valproate
and
primados
as
well.
V
An
issue
which
theresa
may
is
also
focused
on
at
westminster,
because
all
of
these
health
scandals
summed
up
in
the
work
of
baroness
cumberland,
deserve
attention,
and
I'm
so
pleased
that
the
government
is
taking
forward
the
recommendations
that
have
been
made.
It
was
on
november,
the
25th
last
year
that
the
first
minister
did
meet
with
many
of
the
mesh
women.
It's
true.
It
was
during
a
general
election.
It's
a
little
uncharitable
to
suggest.
There
was
a
connection.
V
V
If
there
are
others
who
heard
the
appalling
testimony
of
the
mhra
who
came
along
and
in
front
of
a
room
full
of
mesh
suffering,
women
told
them
that
the
approvals
process
had
been
a
two-week
desktop
study
by
three
students
at
a
cost
of
20
000
pounds
and
that,
as
far
as
he
was
concerned,
there
were
maybe
a
handful
of
women.
Who'd
been
adversely
affected,
never
mind
the
rose
sitting
behind
him
at
the
time
and
if
any
service
is
unfit
for
purpose,
it
is
the
mhra.
V
Now
it
is
yes,
it's
a
reserve
function
at
westminster,
that's
not
an
issue
of
contention.
If
ever
a
motion
came
before
this
parliament,
all
parties
would
be
united
in
saying
that
now
must
be
completely
changed
and
addressed,
and
it
was
after
that
not
then,
but
after
that,
we
found
out
that
some
of
the
people
in
the
mhra
had
direct
in
links
to
the
industries
who
were
producing
the
mesh
product
which
had
gone
undeclared
and
from
which
they
were
profiting.
V
So
many
people
have
talked
about
the
way
in
which
the
women's
voices
have
been
dismissed
about
the
way
that
they
were
treated,
and
you
know
what
goes
on
today
for
those
of
us
who
sit
on
the
cross
party
group
in
chronic
pain.
If
you're
a
man
did
you
play
football
son
when
you
were
younger,
did
you
have
an
accident
at
work?
Were
you
in
the
armed
forces?
V
V
Today
and
let
me
say
if
people
stand
up
and
tell
you
that
they
are
suffering
unbelievable,
chronic
pain
and
are
unable
to
carry
on
with
their
normal
lives
it's
because
they
probably
are
and
that
that
symptom
should
be
taken
seriously
and
addressed
and
again
in
the
petitions
committee.
I
another
satiny
room
where
we
saw
men
in
grey
suits
argue
to
the
very
women
sitting
at
the
back
of
the
room.
V
We
should
also.
We
should
also
remember
that
for
much
of
the
progress
of
this,
it
was
about
stopping
it
happening
again.
That
was
the
objective
of
the
women
concerned.
They
didn't
really
think
mesh
removal
was
an
option.
They
didn't
think
it
was
an
option
because
you
only
got
to
think
about
mesh
and
the
way
in
which
tissue
grows
around
it
and
the
extraordinary
difficulty
that
there
would
be,
if
not
excruciating,
pain,
to
actually
try
and
remove
it.
V
It
wasn't
just
because
it
was
because
that
we've
moved
from
that
to
a
point
where
mesh
removal
is
now
an
option,
and
that's
what
underpins
my
amendment,
because
I
don't
as
like
alec
neil
necessarily
want
to
get
into
the
whys
and
wherefores
of
what
dr
veronicas
may
or
may
not
do
or
have
said
in
coming.
Here.
I
want
the
women
to
know
and
it's
a
finite
number.
We
may
still
have
to
quantify
how
many,
but
if
we're
not
implementing
any
further
mesh,
it's
a
it's
a
it's
a
quantifiable
number.
V
I
want
those
women
to
know
that
if
it
comes
to
the
bit,
they
can
go
to
the
united
states.
They
can
go
to
dr
veronicas
and
they
can
have
that
mesh
removed
fully
funded
by
the
nhs,
and
that
is
what
two
of
my
constituents
have
done.
Elaine
holmes
herself
at
a
cost
of
some
twenty
thousand
pounds
and
lorna
farrow,
who
you
can
watch
on
youtube.
V
V
Some
people
have
been
quite
kind
about
neil
finley,
alec
neil,
and
I
this
afternoon
I've
got
to
say
we
did
meet
earlier
today.
We
actually
solved
all
the
problems
of
the
world.
So
if
the
government
falls,
we
stand
ready
to
serve
and
we
are
we're
flattered
by
your
confidence,
but
there
were
a
lot
of
other
people
as
well.
V
We've
heard
mention
of
marion
scott,
who
has
been
an
absolutely
tireless
emotional
support
to
the
women
and
investigative
journalists
actually
to
mandy
rhodes
and
the
hollywood
magazine
team,
who
have
actually
been
quite
quite
hard
working
in
this
as
well.
To
will
ogre,
who
is
a
clinician
who
has
enjoyed
the
confidence
of
the
women
throughout
and,
of
course,
to
elaine,
to
olive
and
to
the
other
tireless
women
who
have
campaigned
in
this
issue
over
these
three
parliaments.
Two
of
those
musketeers
have
indicated
that
they
won't
be
coming
back.
V
I
can
only
say
that
the
electorate
are
kind
enough
to
return
me.
I
will
work
with
rona
makai
with
others
who
are
going
to
be
coming
back,
who
themselves
have
become
real
champions
of
this
issue
over
the
last
few
years
to
ensure
that
in
the
fourth
parliament,
when
mesh
is
an
issue
that
the
resolutions
that
we
make
today
the
recommendations
that
we
implement
actually
finally
draw
a
lander
under
the
under
the
mesh
scandal,
and
that
we
give
these
women
all
of
these
women,
the
justice
they
deserve.
O
O
N
Thank
you
very
much,
president
officer
and
I'd
like
to
thank
all
of
the
members
who
have
contributed
to
this
afternoon's
debate.
I
would
also
like
to
extend
my
thanks
to
barnes
cumberland
and
her
review
team,
as
well
as
those
who
contributed
to
this
report's
findings.
The
cabinet
secretary
and
I
were
grateful
to
meet
with
the
baroness
and
her
team
yesterday
and
she
spoke
of
the
courage,
determination
and
strength
shown
by
those
who
came
forward
to
tell
their
story
and
both
the
cabinet
secretary,
and
I
absolutely
echoed
the
baroness's
thoughts.
N
I
would
take
this
opportunity
to
reiterate
the
cabinet
secretary's
apology
to
all
of
those
who
have
been
affected
by
primidos,
sodium,
vaporate
and
mesh.
Your
tile
is
campaigning
to
bring
these
feelings
to
public
attention,
while
also
coping
with
pain
and
such
upset
has
been
and
remains,
courageous
beyond
description.
N
N
Baroness
cumberland's
report
gives
clear
justification
for
many
of
the
decisive
actions
we
have
taken
in
recent
months
and
years.
We
brought
a
halt
to
the
use
of
transfer,
sorry
transvaginal
mesh
in
scotland,
and
we
have
no
plans
to
lift
this
halt.
We
have
established
a
one
million
pound
fund
to
help
women
with
the
cost
of
emotional
and
practical
support
that
they
need
as
the
result
of
mesh
complications,
and
we
have
progressed
plans
for
the
mesh
specialist
service.
C
N
We
know
members
concerns
about
women
who,
because
they
lack
trust
in
services,
want
to
seek
treatment
elsewhere
and
president
officer
is
vital
that
patients
have
the
confidence
that
every
time
they
access
any
part
of
the
health
care
system
that
they
receive
the
best
available
treatment
without
fear
of
harm.
For
that
reason,
we're
establishing
a
patient
safety
commissioner
role,
which
barnes
cumberland
passionately
advocated
yesterday,
and
it
is
now
a
programme
for
government
commitment
and
as
you've
heard
today,
what
the
role
looks
like
where
it
will
sit
and
how
it
will
function.
N
It
must
take
into
account
the
scottish
landscape
and,
of
course,
will
require
input
from
patients
and
the
wider
public,
and
I
think
it
was
alec
neil
who
raised
that
particular
issue
about
the
patient
safety.
Commissioner
and
the
scottish
government
is
beginning
consultation
on
that
role
with
patients
at
the
heart
of
that
and
the
first
people
that
we
are
consulting.
N
N
As
the
cabinet
secretary
touched
on
in
her
opening
remarks,
it
has
to
be
remembered
that
some
of
barnes's
cumberland's
recommendations
are
out
with
the
scottish
government's
gift
to
act
on,
and
I
really
welcome
the
commitment
from
the
scottish
conservatives
to
work
on
some
of
those
commitments
with
us
and
to
encourage
the
uk
government
to
act
on
them.
And
that
said,
the
scottish
government
will
meet
with
both
the
general
medical
council
and
the
mhra
over
the
next
few
months,
and
we
will
seek
further
reassurances
on
areas
that
are
not
within
our
devolved
powers.
N
Scotland
has
long
since
called
for
reform
of
the
mhra
to
be
more
patient,
focused
and
outward
facing,
and
this
is
no
secret
and
we
are
encouraged
by
the
steps
that
the
agency
has
taken
towards
to
perform.
Thus
far,
the
cabinet
secretary
wrote
to
the
mhra
in
support
of
its
efforts,
and
we
will
continue
to
press
to
ensure
that
change
remains
a
priority.
N
One
of
the
key
recommendations
was
around
better
data.
I
think
this
was
referred
to
by
a
brian
whittle
and
his
contribution,
and
this
is
an
area
where
we
can
work
closely
with
the
mhra
and
others
across
the
uk,
and
this
was
highlighted
as
important
for
patient
safety
and
by
clinicians
in
relation
to
sodium
vaporate
and
the
mhra
and
nhs
digital
are
working
on
a
sodium
vaporate
specific
registry.
N
As
the
first
minister
has
previously
stated
in
parliament
and
as
has
been
set
out
in
this
debate
today,
we
would
urge
those
who
have
a
genuine
concern
in
these
issues
to
work
with
us.
We
must
work
to
rebuild
women's
trust
and
services,
and
us
working
together
would
be
a
helpful
step
in
achieving
this.
N
I
think
there
were
some
very
passionate
and
and
very
interesting
contributions
across
the
chamber
today.
I've
acknowledged
a
few
of
those,
and
I
think
it's
it's
really
important-
that
we
ensure
that
scotland
does
lead
the
way,
as
donald
cameron
said,
and
actually,
as
the
baroness
said
yesterday
in
our
meeting
with
myself
and
the
cabinet
secretary,
that
we
are
at
the
forefront
of
implementing
her
reviews.
O
W
W
A
Thank
you,
colleagues.
The
next
item
of
business
is
consideration
of
motion
double
to
484
on
a
financial
resolution
for
the
period
products
pre-provisioned
scotland
bill.
Could
I
call
on
ben
mcpherson
to
move
this
motion
formally
moved
off?
Thank
you
very
much
and
the
next
item.
Our
business
is
consideration
of
business
motion
double
to
649.
In
the
name
of
graham
d,
on
behalf
of
the
parliamentary
bureau
setting
up
revisions
to
thursday's
business,
could
I
call
in
graeme
d
to
move
this
motion.
X
A
A
A
A
That's
right:
the
original
decision
time
was
delayed
to
10
past.
I'm
we're
either
in
a
situation
where
the
votes
will
be
agreed
unanimously
in
case
there
won't
be
a
division
and
no
one
will
miss
out
or
there'll,
be
a
division,
which
case
there'll,
be
a
technical
break,
in
which
case
there'll
be
plenty
of
time
for
members
who
have
not
yet
made
it
to
the
chamber
or
online
will
be
able
to
join
us
online
because
I'm
only
moving
forward
in
five
minutes
so
are
we?
Does
it
make
any
member
objects?
A
W
W
K
W
W
A
A
Now
we're
not
agreed
so
we're
going
to
go
to
a
division
on
this
amendment
before
we
do
we'll
have
a
technical
break
and
that's
to
make
sure
that
all
our
colleagues
online
are
logged
on
to
the
remote
voting
system.
So
I'm
going
to
suspend
parliament
for
a
few
moments.
While
we
make
sure
that
everybody
is
online
both
in
the
chamber
and
online,
the
parliament
is
suspended
and
I
would
say
to
colleagues
that
are
online.
A
W
A
A
A
A
W
W
A
A
A
W
A
A
W
C
Can
we
put
that
to
the
side?
The
confidence
in
this
system
is
ebbing
away
every
single
day
we
come
here
and
when
people
have
raised
very
legitimate
points
of
order.
Before
on
this
issue,
there
has
been
an
insistence
that
the
system
is
working.
The
system
is
self-evidently
not
working
to
the
satisfaction
of
all
members.
C
A
W
X
I
have
to
I
have
to
make
the
point
that
I
voted
two
weeks
ago
in
a
remote
division
on
a
bill,
and
I
was
terrified
in
each
division
that
the
vote
was
not
being
counted
or
not
being
counted
properly.
Today
we
have
seen
a
vote
which,
at
the
very
least,
must
be
one
in
which
this
chamber
will
have
no
confidence
if
vote
by
a
single
vote,
and
we
do
not
know
whether
individuals
had
voted
or
not.
A
Thank
you
very
much,
mr
russell.
Can
I
suggest
that
we
are
debating
exactly
that
option
at
the
moment.
Can
I
suggest
that,
contrary
to
mr
finley's
point
of
order
and
the
system
is
working,
however,
however,
I
recognize
that
it
has
major
issues
at
the
moment,
which
is
I
agree
with
mr
finley
is
undermining
confidence.
A
If
you
don't
mind,
I'm
going
to
suspend
business
justice
now
to
work
out
what
happened
in
that
vote
and
whether
or
not
people
missed
votes.
Just
just
let
me
say
this
for
the
record:
people
miss
votes
for
lots
of
reasons
all
the
time
and
under
the
old
system,
people
in
the
chamber
press
the
wrong
button.
They
put
the
card
in
they
miss
votes
for
lots
of
reasons,
and
it
happens
quite
a
lot
now.
Members
might
not
be
aware
of
that.
I
can
assure
you
from
the
chair
I'm
highly
aware
of
it.
A
This
new
system
we're
having
difficulties
a
lot
of
the
difficulties.
Mr
russell
are
not
with
the
system
they're
with
us
our
familiarity.
Now
I'm
not
going
to
defend
the
system
at
this
stage
to
you
individually.
What
I'm
going
to
do
is
make
sure
that
our
system
is
working
and
that
you,
mr
russell,
can
have
confidence
in
it.
So
I'm
going
to
suspend
for
a
few
moments.
While
we
establish
what
happened
in
that
particular
vote
and
I'll
be
back
in
a
few.
W
A
Thank
you,
colleagues,
we're
back
from
suspension
now
we're
doing
business.
Just
let
members
know
there's
clearly.
We
need
to
have
a
thorough
debrief
of
what
happened
in
that
particular
vote.
To
make
sure
that
everybody
here
has
confidence
that
the
vote
has
been
carried
out,
including
myself,
that's
been
carried
out
effectively
and
robustly.
A
So
we're
going
to
do
that
vote
tomorrow.
However,
what
I'm
going
to
suggest
is
that
there
is
a
fir
another
question
on
the
period
products
bill,
I'm
going
to
take
that
vote
if
there's
a
division,
we'll
also
hold
that
division
tomorrow.
However,
if
it's
agreed
now
and
that
will
be
able
to
go
through
this
evening
point
of
order,
mr
finley,
yes
from.
A
A
I'm
sorry,
mr
findlay,
this
happens
and
there
are
procedures
laid
down
in
signing
orders
to
deal
with
situations
such
as
this.
The
reason
that
I
am
suspending
the
vote
now
and
we're
going
back
to
tomorrow
is
to
allow
me
and
others
to
have
a
look
at
exactly
what
happened
and
I'll
be
able
to
give
you
a
firm
decision
on
that
tomorrow
and
I'm
not
going
to
give
you
a
decision
now.
Mr
finley
point
of
order,
mr
finley.
A
No,
mr
finley,
it's
not
an
order!
I've
already,
given
my
decision
that
we
are
going
to
come
back
to
this
matter
tomorrow,
at
which
point
I
will
be
able
to
and
I'll
discuss
this
with
the
business
managers
and
I'll
make
sure
that
we,
the
chamber,
is
fully
informed
of
how
we
resume
our
approach
to
this
vote.
A
But
I'm
afraid
we
should
do
this
in
the
light
of
knowing
exactly
what
happened
in
that
vote.
Now,
I'm
sorry,
but
we
need
to
know
exactly
what
happened
in
that
vote
before
we
do
that,
and
that's
the
reason
that
we
are
moving
everything
to
tomorrow.
However,
with
the
chair,
oh
mr
findlay,
one
more
point:
please
yeah.
C
A
I
I
well
I'm
not
accepting
such
emotion
at
that
point,
which
is
more
to
the
point.
Mr
finley.
I'm
sorry,
mr
filner,
I'm
in
the
chair
at
the
moment.
I've
already
given
him
a
decision
you're
you
can
move.
Well,
we
can
say
what
you
can
be
or
may
not
do
tomorrow.
At
the
moment.
I
am
not
saying
that
this
motion
is
defeated
or
annulled
or
cancelled.
A
I'm
going
to
suspend
business
on
that
vote
and
we'll
come
back
to
it
tomorrow
and
I
will
be
able
to
inform
mr
phil
the
fact
that
mr
finley
does
not
like
the
outcome
of
the
vote
is
not
the
same
as
not
having
confidence
in
the
outcome
and
I'm
sorry,
but
I
need
to
know
what
happened
in
the
vote,
at
which
point
we'll
be
able
to
make
a
proper
decision.
At
that
point,
we
will
make
a
decision
now.
We've
got
a
final
question.
X
This,
but
I
think,
whilst
I
accept
that
you
do
not
have
to
take
clearly
a
motion
from
mr
finley,
I
hope
the
team
you
will
reassure
the
chamber
of
two
things.
One
is
that
you
will
consult
fully
with
the
business
managers
on
looking
at
this
vote
and
making
sure
that
they
have
full
access
to
all
the
information
on
it
and,
secondly,
that
you
will
look
at
the
wider
question
of
how
this
chamber
can
have
confidence
restored
in
the
new
voting
system.
Given
the
experience
we
have
had
not
just
today,
but
over
the
last
few
weeks.
X
A
I
think
mr
fit
mr
russell.
I
addressed
both
those
points,
which
is
why
we're
going
to
return
to
the
subject
tomorrow.
Not
only
will
I
share
it,
not
only
will
I
share
this
information
with
all
the
business
managers.
I
will
make
sure
all
members
all
members
are
fully
aware
of
what
happened
in
that
particular
vote
and
of
any
decision,
whether
to
rerun
or
otherwise.
Mr
mr
carlos
jackson,
carver
point
of
order.
V
Presiding
officer,
can
I
just
point
out
that
this
confusion
has
come
at
the
end
of
a
very
important
debate
that
thousands
of
women
across
scotland
will
have
been
watching
online
and
will
be
dismayed
actually
at
the
turn
of
events.
So
I
do
think
parliament
itself
owes
an
apology
to
the
many
women
who
have
been
looking
to
see
what
parliament's
view
and
the
cumberland
report
is
going
to
be.
A
I
am
very
conscious
at
that
point,
mr
carlo.
I
heard
all
of
the
debate.
It
was
an
extremely
emotional
debate
as
well
as
a
powerful
one
and
I'm
and
the
the
very
fact
that
the
vote
itself
is
very
close
is
an
important
matter.
You're,
absolutely
right.
The
business
managers,
the
members
and
the
public
also
need
to
have
confidence
in
this
parliament's
institutions
and
its
procedures,
and
that's
why
we'll
return
to
this
matter
tomorrow,
and
I
I
fully
accept
that
point
daniel
johnson,
on.
Y
A
point
of
order
officer
under
a
rule
11.73,
it
states
that
if
it
appears
that
to
the
presiding
officer
that
the
electronic
voting
system
has
produced
an
unreliable
result,
he
shall
ask
members
to
cast
their
votes
again
in
accordance
with
any
manner
of
voting.
The
presiding
officer
considers
appropriate.
Now.
A
A
This
vote
has
not
yet
been
approved
or
agreed,
and
that
we
will
now
end
if
we
can,
by
putting
a
further
question
this
question.
If
it
comes
to
division,
we
will
move
the
division
tomorrow.
However,
the
question
is
that
motion
two
four,
eight
four
in
the
name
of
kate
forbes
on
the
period
products
free
provision,
scotland
bill
financial
resolution
be
agreed,
are
well
agreed.