►
From YouTube: COPR Galashiels 27th February 2017
Description
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A
This,
which
is
the
ninth
meeting
of
the
Commission
and
parliamentary
reform.
Here
we
are
at
Waverly
chambers
in
a
counter
shield.
My
name
is
John
McCormick
I'm,
the
care
of
the
Commission
and
I'll,
saying
what
more
about
that
and
introduce
my
colleagues
in
a
moment.
The
first
part
from
housekeeping
announcements
to
make
could
ask
everyone
to
switch
off
the
mobile
phones
on
any
other
electronic
equipment
they
have.
A
It
can
affect
sound
system,
and
you
see
that
we
have
a
recording
team
from
the
Scottish
Parliament
here
and
using
laptop
is
not
usually
a
big
problem,
and
sometimes
when
I
commissioned
me
to
members
using
laptops,
Derek
says
papers
have
a
particularly
fond
another
electronic
equipment,
especially
not
there.
We
have
a
photographer.
A
The
back
of
the
room
who
comes
from
the
Parliament,
is
footing
up
in
this
meeting
for
the
parliamentary
website
and
our
own
feed
vascular,
their
camera
coming
in
from
border
televisions,
who
are
doing
a
feature
about
the
work
of
the
Commission
but
they're
coming
in
that
door
and
recording
us.
My
fellow
commissioners
looks
very
sure,
you're
right
in
the
camera
angle
and
if
it
as
anyone,
and
then
they
wanted
to
take
a
shot
of
you
sitting
there,
anyone
any
objection
to
that.
We
will
tell
them
not
to
do
so.
A
It's
in
your
hands
at
nmc
an
objection
at
all
to
being
perhaps
seen
on
board
on
televisions
political
program.
Then
we
would
understand
fully
and
I,
don't
see
any
signs
of
dissent
with
an
acceptable
end
of
the
karma
just
roamed
freely
over
here
for
a
few
minutes
when
I
know
it
again
just
to
get
some
establishing
shots.
I
love
the
doing
an
interview
me
later
sitting
fo,
why
we're
here
in
Galashiels
and
what
we're
getting
up
to
that's
all
right.
Okay,
thank
you
very
much.
A
Thank
you
very
much
and
the
show
should
also
there
say
thank
all
the
organizations
and
the
many
individuals
have
helped
the
Commission
to
organize
today's
event,
specialist
out
here
at
the
interchange
in
tremendous
Lee,
supportive,
the
staff
and
the
students
at
gala
shield
Academy
as
well
and
we'll
be
hearing
more
from
them.
I
hope
that
the
day
goes
on
and
and
welcome
to
all
of
you
and
thank
you
for
spending
the
time
to
come
a
lock
and
come
along
as
he
and
what
you're
about
it
should
begin.
A
We
have
apology
from
Carl,
old,
Tom,
Dunkin
glance,
adrenaline
and
Lana,
who
didn't
feel
my
clothes
sadly
couldn't
be
with
us
today.
I
said
I
said
the
chair
that
year
was
set
up,
the
the
cheer
was
set
up
by
the
presiding
officer
of
the
Scottish
Parliament
at
the
end
of
October,
and
he
invited
11
people
to
be
members
of
the
Commission,
six
of
whom
are
members
of
civic
society
with
a
broad
range
of
different
experience
and
five.
Our
nominees
of
the
political
parties,
which
are
represented
in
the
Scottish
Parliament.
A
My
name
is
Joe
McCormack
and
I'm,
one
of
the
non-party
representatives,
my
partner
and
was,
and
what
I
started
life
as
a
teacher
of
history
model
study,
so
that
didn't
last
very
long
and
I
moved
into
the
BBC
and
spent
my
professionalizing
in
the
BBC
and
largely
I've,
been
the
till
the
end
of
last
year,
the
electric
Commissioner
with
responsibility
for
Scotland
loegering
to
table.
As
my
fellow
commissioners
to
introduce
themselves,
okay.
E
F
A
Thank
you
just
a
what
at
the
beginning
about
the
about
the
Commission,
the
Parliament
open
for
business
in
July
1999,
and
so
as
it
could
look
forward
to
celebrating
his
18th
anniversary
this
year.
Providing
authors
and
members
across
the
parties
thought
it
was
a
good
time.
The
Parliament
hasn't
made
a
big
impact,
it's
regarded
as
a
success.
A
So
we
were
asked
to
look
at
how
the
Parliament
was
keeping
faith
with
those
founding
principles
and
with
the
key
themes
to
a
remit
to
look
at
the
practices
and
procedures
of
the
Parliament.
The
checks
and
balances
that
exists
for
the
effective
conduct
of
business
and
make
an
assessment
of
how
well
it's
doing
to
work
at
seeing
what
we
could
do
to
clarify
the
difference
between
the
scottish
government
under
Scottish
Parliament
and
the
district
roles
that
each
have,
and
also
to
increase
Parliament
singh
engagement
with
the
public
and
wider
Scottish
society.
A
We've
also
arranged
the
number
of
event
between
now
and
the
end
of
March
will
have
certified
different
events,
some
of
which
we
have
arranged
ourselves
like
the
one
we're
having
in
here
this
evening
at
six
o'clock
to
assure
all,
welcome
and
others
were.
We
have
gone
to
event
to
other
organizations
have
arranged
where
they
want
to
talk
to
us
about
their
views
of
the
Scottish
Parliament
and
what
their
experiences
and
what
we
might
learn
from
that
experience.
A
We've
also
engaged
with
had
an
evening
spent
with
a
number
of
60
former
NSPS
when
I
went
to
the
Parliament,
could
safely
haters
and
reflect
on
that
experience
and
what
they
have
learned
from
it
and
what
changes
they
would
make
to.
The
more
efficient
running
of
the
Parliament
within
meetings
were
the
political
parties
and
with
a
number
of
the
NSPS
and
we're
hoping
to
all
of
the
msps,
and
the
current
Parliament
will
give
us
evidence
of
a
how
they
feel
improvement
could
be
introduced
to
the
Parliament.
A
A
number
of
students
are
emerging
as
we
go
go
around
the
country
relating
to
the
work
of
the
Parliament,
and
one
of
them
is
about
how
the
Parliament
engages
with
the
people
of
Scotland
it's
in
Edinburgh
Scotland,
but
represents
almost
forty
percent
of
the
landmass
of
the
UK.
The
bulk
of
the
population
is
in
the
central
felt.
How
does
the
Parliament
engage?
How
has
it
engaged
on
people
across
Scotland
and
what
would
we
recommend
and
to
improve
that
engagement
with
people?
G
A
Was
I
was
allowed
in
the
lab?
We
voted
again
to
the
common
market,
I
bought
them
at
referendum
and
1975
heaven's
sake
anyway
to
leave
the
European
Union
loss
speculation
that
will
only
increase
the
powers
that
will
come
to
the
Scottish
Parliament,
so
we'll
be
looking
to
the
future
and
seeing
how
we
can
make
recommendations
that
would
help
the
Parliament
to
develop
the
tools
to
cope
with
the
increased
responsibilities.
It
has.
I
think
I
said
not
from
me.
A
Actually
we
have
a
little
time
left
before
colleagues
come
in
to
encourage
evidence
of
a
digital
democracy
and
helios.
They
want
to
know
that
any
questions
or
thoughts
that
you
may
have
about
our
work
or
any
engagement
you'd
like
to
meet
with
us
during
them
all
the
time
we
have
left
up
till
three
o'clock
since
you've
been
interested
enough
to
come
here.
G
H
A
H
I
know
you
can
maybe
a
feeling
of
God
that
may
be
a
big
job,
then
they
might
be
need
to
think
of
it
that
bit
more
but
actually
go
to
the
Parliament
and
watch
things
happen.
I'm
I
think
the
young
people
would
understand
if
they
were
actually
doing
something
concrete.
It
would
be
very
enthused
by
it
turn.
A
C
Indeed,
is
an
excellent
educational
and
department
and
at
the
Parliament
and
an
outreach
program,
so
I
hear
exactly
what
you
see
at
some
of
the
represents
the
highlands
and
islands.
It's
very
gratifying
to
welcome
for
them,
since
I
own
a
primary
school
to
come
there
and
the
challenges
that
are.
Let
me
think
two
ferries
and
a
and
a
considerable
germany,
and
I
likewise
to
go
and
visit
there.
C
Who
pays
for
that
and
that
thing
for
that.
What's
that
not
being
for
and
so
yep
and
of
course
it
it
doesn't
have
to
be
the
the
physical
engagement.
The
digital
engagement
is
important
to
one
of
the
challenge
of
that
is
the
level
of
expectation
of
response,
so
that's
Messiah,
duel
or
Twitter,
and
if
I'm
on
the
train
and
I've
finished
reading
my
papers
I'll
do
a
lotta
to
influence,
but
there
could
be
periods,
for
instance,
with
the
full
knowledge.
C
Is
nowhere
and
someone's
not
getting
a
response,
and
some
things
are
both
the
expectation
around
the
speed
of
response
and
the
detail
of
response,
because
what
most
people
would
find
challenging
of
most
politicians,
I
think
would
be
to
have
an
ongoing
dialogue.
You
know,
and
but
yet
no
III
think,
and
the
great
thing
is
there's
no
one
in
the
education
system,
though,
who
knows
other
than
when
there
was
a
scottish
parliament
there
and-
and
we
want
to
learn
that-
which
is
what
this
whole
exercise
is
about.
So
thank
you.
G
G
A
And
those
are
the
people
that
are
more
difficult
to
reach.
You
know,
we
know
that
we
and
what,
in
the
alleged
Commission
last
year,
we
did
a
lot
of
work.
Last,
the
last
elections
in
a
96
and
97
and
Canada
97
with
homeless
people
trying
to
encourage
all
most
people
realize
you
can
have
a
boat.
You
can
register
support
without
an
address
and
working
with
the
organization
shelter.
We
managed
to
get
a
lot
of
homeless
people
onto
the
Electoral
Register
and
encourage
them
to
take
part
in
the
voting.
A
It's
quite
difficult
to
get
a
hold
of
a
minute,
and
it's
quite
intensive,
so
we're
trying
to
meet
as
many
people
as
we
can
who's
last
thought
would
be
to
engage
the
Parliament.
Some
of
them
are
young
people,
but
not
in
not
in
the
mainstream.
Really
at
all
people
are
homeless
people
travelling
people-
people
have
been
in
the
case
that
can
find
it
difficult
to
engage
with
the
Parliament.
A
So
we're
open
fantastic
evidence
from
a
young
man
in
Inverness,
get
in
through
the
care
system,
and
it
took
give
us
a
real
life
lesson
and
how
to
engage
with
the
Parliament
and
how
to
change
his
life
and
having
started
working
with
these
local
MSP,
and
would
any
of
you
feel
that
the
Parliament
was
kind
of
alien
to
East
is
not
part
of
your
life?
It
could
you
could
too
many
other
things
are
interested.
You.
I
I
My
interview
lines
like
I'd
ever
question
so
on
yes,
and
it's
only
three
place
for
some
partners
with
five
six
years
and
I'm,
quite
quite
misleading,
building
and
I.
Think
even
in
other
government
officials,
they
came
to
see
quite
a
really
for
some
people
and
I
was
applied
too
sexy
for
many
years
service
environment
every
week
and
I
took
a
question
about
family
event
and
I.
Just
wanted
to
run
in
terms
of
and
weirder
took.
Digital
engagement
is
is
connected
to
a
place
parliamentary
forum.
What.
B
A
We're
independent
of
the
government,
I
have
to
say
right
in
there
we've
been
asked,
take
a
fresh
look
at
everything
which
been
good.
You
know
in
terms
of
the
Parliament
sir
perspective,
this
is
independent
of
government
and
independent
of
the
Parliament,
although
we
have
represented
the
political
parties
on
on
the
Commission,
thankfully,
and
learning
from
their
experience,
and
our
report
will
be
quite
independent,
of
government
and
of
the
Parliament.
So
it
is
a
view
from
outside
having
this
sort,
a
lot
of
evidence
from
people
across
the
country
have
a
one
they
think
of
the
Parliament.
B
B
Issue
about
about
young
people's
engagement,
of
course,
one
of
the
big
changes
on
the
major
changes
to
the
entire
voting
profile
of
Scotland,
since
the
panel
was
created
in
suppose
for
16
17
year-olds,
which
wasn't
there
at
the
beginning.
So
in
terms
of
engagement,
is
not
simply
just
a
valuable
add-on
people
to
have
as
your
absolute
right.
You
know
as
voters
I
mean
1617
with
a
45
year.
Parliament
chances
are
at
least
half
of
you
will
vote
in
a
scholarship
action.
While
you
are
still
at
school,
they
are
bad
throughout
Africa.
B
A
J
A
F
Government
under
the
parliament,
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
we
were
set
up
to
do
is
obviously
to
try
and
define
the
identity
of
the
parliament
cuz.
I
think
when
most
people
think
of
the
parliament,
they
probably
think
of
the
government
government
policy
and
I
think,
there's
a
big
difference
between
the
government's
policy
and
what
the
Parliament
does
in
terms
of
holding.
You
know
the
government
to
account
scrutiny,
etcetera
and
I.
A
One
of
the
interesting
things
about
the
extension,
the
franchise
to
16
17
year-olds
ism,
because
the
Electoral
Commission
after
every
election
has
a
massive
calling
of
people
who
have
voted
and
ask
from
how
the
voltage,
if
they're
willing
to
tell
them.
So
it's
not
them
in
the
board
topeka.
So
no
one
can
tell
from
the
registration
information
who
bought
it.
Four
ways
costs
by
secret
ballot,
but
we
find
thousands
of
people
who
are
willing
to
see
how
they
voted
on
a
structured
sample
enough
for
us
to
generalize
from
a
boat.
A
I'm
a
particularly
interested
in
the
demography
of
the
earth
off
the
electorate.
Who
are
the
people
who
boast
most
often
so
the
people
who
voted
most
happy
for
once
in
the
election,
not
more
of
more
than
once
in
the
election.
Most
often
in
terms
of
every
time
they
have
the
opportunity
for
in
a
referendum
or
a
UK
election
or
Scottish
election
that
they
do
exercise
the
vote
and
those
who
don't
and
the
big
gap
we've
had
over.
A
A
K
That
do
you
think
it's
like
a
due
to
lack
of
an
education
did
that
stop
younger
people
are
less
likely
to
vote,
because
I
know
that
my
sister
she
deliver
me
and
she
she
only
devote
on
depending
on
what
my
parents
house,
like
Alex
inside
studying
my
study
and
like
she
doesn't
really
know,
what's
up
Parliament
or
is
a
party
or
that's
this
many
ways.
Don't
post
article
activated
me
today,
so
maybe
don't
want
to
die.
A
K
I
close
my
pretty
billing
I
I
love
but
they're
all
the
time
and
and
my
sister
gets
really
bored
and
like
it's
the
idea
that
focuses
very,
very
boring
and
you
don't
understand
it.
It
is
very
boring,
so
I
think
you'd
make
it
in
a
way
that
it's
not
like
it's
easier
to
understand,
and
maybe
it
would
think
we
falter
a
little
of
your
rain.
But.
D
Maybe
one
of
them
I
have
a
sister
quite
the
same,
who
couldn't
care?
Less
has
no
idea
and
what
the
work
of
the
Commission
does,
and
but
it
doesn't
mean
that
when
I
talked
to
her
about
individual
issues
and
her
affect
her
life,
she
doesn't
want
to
get
involved
where
she
isn't
interested,
and
so
that
would
be
kind
of
the
starting
point.
I
would
say
I
tried.
K
K
M
N
Was
wondered
why
why'd
you
kill
that
technology
the
best
way
to
get
involved
and
exact
I
personally
feel
that
it's
much
much
bored
bored,
I
121
thank
corners.
The
speeches
of
speak
the
politician
about
things
rather
than
communicating
through
Twitter,
and
you
know
that
kind
of
thing
I
feels
it
and
I
feel
it
from
especially.
You
know
if
you're
here
from
God,
it's
kind
of
how
you
see
the
bios
version
of
the
cell
in
and
you
don't
really
and
it's
kind
of
hard
to
ever.
A
I
think
the
very
interesting
point
you
make
is
one
that
you
know
we
were
talking
about
earlier.
We
would
can
come
with.
You
know,
there's
nothing,
but
it
can
be
face-to-face
contact
for
engagement,
the
difficulties
of
engagement,
distance.
You
know
the
parliamentary
language
that
we,
our
cycle
meant
have
mentioned
that
kind
of
barrier
to
so
they
don't
feel
comfortable
with
it.
A
I,
don't
think
I,
don't
think,
there's
only
one
way
of
engaging,
and
that's
one
of
the
things
we're
going
to
major
in
our
report
and
some
of
the
evidence
that
people
have
submitted
to
the
gentleman
here
and
commenters
pictures,
maybe
well
as
Eddie
there's.
Not
only
one
way
of
doing
it
and
digital
is
no
substitute.
It's
you
got
to
do
in
different
ways.
A
Digital
is
one
of
the
ways
you
you
have
to
communicate
with
people
because
for
some
people
thats
how
they
feel
most
comfortable
communicating
with
you,
but
it's
no
substitute
for
other
forms
of
communication,
not
an
either
or
in
other
words.
You
know
there
should
be
a
whole
wide
range
of
methodologies
of
contacting
your
local
MSP
of
contacting
the
Parliament
of
contacting
the
government.
I
think
that
they
fear
joining
you.
Do
that?
Don't
you.
C
And
it's
not
a
one
version.
I
don't
know
whether
to
be
complimented
or
insulted
by
the
cold,
normal
and
austin
fixed,
but
there
is
a
challenge
that
certain
dos
did.
They
are
challenged
now
I
like
to
see
the
whites
of
people's
eyes
and
that's
a
challenge
when
you're
representing
other
size
of
Belgium,
one
of
two
other
local
authorities,
the
island
groups.
So
you
know
I'm
very
keen
to
use
the
technology
as
well,
but
I
would
ask
adam
such
a
term
about
your
house.
How
do
you
want
that
engagement?
C
Because
public
meetings
are
not
necessarily
going
to
have
people
coming
out
and
lifestyle
issue
specific
a
lot
of
people
say:
I
want
to
speak
to
you,
but
don't
come
to
my
door
when
the
footballs
on
and
so
M
surgeries
that
another
opportunity
and
that
they
are
generally
intended
to
be
about
specific
issues
while
a
little
bit
generalities.
But
the
important
thing
is
that
politicians
are
open
about
in
the
community.
C
F
F
N
I
was
just
seeing
how
I
would
later
what
I'd
like
amateu
msps
to
come
into
school,
so
I
think
I.
Think
one
of
the
main
things
for
me
is
how
house
d
encourage
people
to
go
in
and
working
in
those
environments
and
because
jungle
I,
don't
think
over
here
says
that
they
want
to
get
into
politics
as
such,
because
it
doesn't,
and
it
seems
like
a
long
way
to
go
it
simply
to
come
for
you,
but
an
MSP.
You
have
to
get
your
chance
to
do
a
lot
together
and
I.
N
C
The
fact
that
an
education
Authority
would
take
a
view
on
one
of
the
most
important
decisions
affecting
young
people,
who
are
the
opportunity
provoke
the
first
time
but,
to
my
mind,
was
a
political
decision
rather
than
a
political
decision.
So
yes
I'm,
you
know
we
really
want
to
hear
from
you
how
you
masked
want
engagement,
and
if
that
is
more
about
your
mortgage
involvement
with
education
system,
then
yeah.
But
up
for
that.
Thank
you.
E
And
part
of
our
University,
which
uses
video
technology
regularly,
but
it's
we
have
taken
a
decision
in
our
partnership
council
that
we
meet
face-to-face
every
third
meeting.
We
meet
monthly
because
we
recognize
that
a
video
conferencing
is
not
enough
of
itself
and
you
don't
get
the
collegiality
a
vomit
that
you
would
get
from
a
face-to-face
meeting.
So
I
sympathize
with
them
extend
with
your
point
that
technology
is
only
partially
answered.
A
Okay,
we'll
have
a
few
minutes
break
and
they
will
move
into
the
next
station.
The
convention
is
that
we
we
have
a
discussion
around
this
table
but
make
sure
you're
not
excluded.
There's
anything
that
you
hear
during
that
hour
in
the
bit.
We'll
have
a
few
minutes
at
the
end.
You
want
to
come
back
at
us
on
anything.
You
can
tour
the
way
we've
done
our
business,
so
we're
possible
with
a
few
minutes
to
get
sympathy.
A
Well,
I
want
to
on
to
part
two
hair.
Thank
you
very
much
and
a
warm
welcome
to
everybody
who's
here
and
thank
you
for
sparing
the
time
to
be
with
us.
An
opponent-
and
I
said
alice
is
an
evidence
and
taking
session
so
we'll
be
having
a
discussion
around
the
table
that
has
ended
up
in
an
opportunity
to
the
end,
for
you,
too
could
have
feedback
on
comments
or
questions
for
those
of
you
who
managed
to
stay
the
course.
So
we
finish
sometimes
a
quarter.
A
Past
four
is
the
aim,
a
note
here
which
they're
so
those
of
you
who
are
tweaking
about
a
meeting
please
use
our
total
handle,
which
is
at
parlor
form
the
hashtag.
Is
you
paddling
your
voice,
you're?
Quite
a
good
tweeting
record.
I
understand
well
had
some
very
interesting
events
as
when
people
giving
evidence
to
is
in
the
parliament
and
the
treaties
were
coming
in
as
we
were,
as
they
were
giving
evidence.
So
I
tried
to
ignore
all
that
at
the
time,
but
it's
great
to
catch
up
with
the
optimist.
A
A
You're.
Very
welcome.
Thank
you
for
your
submissions
and
thank
you
for
being
here
today.
Could
I
ask
you
to
be
internal?
If
there's
anything
you'd
like
to
say
as
an
opening
remark
or
get
to
summarize
I
mean
we
put
the
benefit
of
reading
your
submissions,
just
maybe
a
few
introductory
muscle
media,
so
that
those
who
are
here
because
Kelly
just
before
were
about
Kieran
that
you're
nodding
a
little
not.
M
Doing
more
engagement
with
people
based
on
the
issues
with
the
assembly
is
responsible
for,
rather
than
focusing
so
much
around
the
institution
and
we've
kind
of
try
to
direct
a
lot
of
this
work
and
love
the
energy
to
the
work
of
committees,
which
gives
a
nice
kind
of
participation
opportunity
for
people
to
get
involved
in
issues
that
their
passions,
but
also
gives
us
an
opportunity
to
show
them
how
their
contribution
is
being
considered
and
provides
us
a
possibility.
That's
about
them
and
say
because
of
some
issues
that
you've
raised
in
the
points
you've
raised.
M
Some
of
the
actions
that
are
coming
out
from
this
work
are
related
to
the
point
that
you
raised
as
well.
So
a
lot
of
our
energy
over
the
last
three
or
four
years
have
been
around
focusing
on
that
and
around
trying
to
get
a
broader
range
of
people
engaged
in
the
work
of
the
assembly.
More
broadly
so,
there's
a
certain
types
and
site
certain
type
of
group,
an
audience
who
are
interested
in
what
the
assembly
does
in
general,
but
there's
a
far
greater
proportion
of
people
who
are
interested
in
issues
that
it
serves.
M
O
Thank
you
she'll
be
aware
nest
as
the
UK's
innovation
foundation
owes
slightly
concerned
when
you
said
that
it
wasn't
all
going
to
go
digital
well,
I
should
probably
just
leave
at
some
point,
because
I
think
the
characterization
of
that
is
perhaps
as
us
that's
the
direction
in
which
we
would
want
things
to
go,
I
suppose
what
I?
What
I'd
say?
Is
that
we're
very
keen
to
see
the
addition
of
digital
tools
to
existing
processes
under
creation
of
new
processes
that
are
synthetic
that
includes
both
the
55th
I'm
digital
other
way
forward.
O
Broadcasters
very
large
audiences
and
I
think
that's
a
huge
opportunity.
I
think
there
are
also
huge
risks
with
it,
and
we
see
the
internet
align
with
concerns
around
the
way
in
which
companies
like
umbrage
analytica
have
used
those
techniques
to
push
particular
part
design
viewpoints.
No
I
think
that
there
are.
There
are
great
opportunities
here
and
I'll
be
happy
to
talk
about
those
in
more
depth
than
the
evidence
session.
Thank
you.
J
I'm
going
to
pick
up
on
the
point
of
partisan,
be
points
and
Nestor's
aim
to
digitize
the
universe
and
completely
disagree
with
and
coming
from
a
background
in
digital
democracy
and
digital
engagement,
I'm
going
to
do
it
from
a
qualified
position
that
this
is
nothing
to
do
with
digital.
This
is
about
people
it's
about
culture.
J
It
was
really
interesting
before
when
you
mention
the
original
founding
principles
of
the
Scottish
Parliament,
about
being
closer
to
people,
better
participation,
better
engagement,
you've
failed
you're,
not
very
good
at
it,
and
the
reason
for
that
other
processes
and
the
culture
of
the
institution
they
are
getting
in
the
way
of
you
engaging
so
there's
no
point:
bolting
digital
tools
onto
a
broken
process.
It's
just
going
to
create
a
broken
digital
process.
J
J
It
should
simply
be
the
conduit
through
the
democratic
process,
yet
it
creates
so
many
walls
and
barriers
and
blocks
through
its
institutions,
its
committees,
its
language,
its
processes,
it's
a
best
of
cake
now
the
opportunity
there
is
to
change
that
culture
and
change
those
processes,
and
we
can
do
that
through
using
tools,
but
we
should
never
be
thinking.
We
should
be
using
a
digital
tool
for
this.
J
P
Air
thanks
and
yeah,
just
probably
they're
cool
the
points
of
amazing
they
on
the
panel
yeah,
but
just
to
kind
of
refer
to
the
evidence
that
I
submitted
and
I
think
Parliament
is
the
sort
of
the
last
sort
of
part
of
the
Democratic
can
be
about
in
the
organization.
I've
represented
democratic
society
is
calling
and
wants
to
help
create
a
more
participative
democracy.
People
can
feel
you
know
connected
to
the
decisions
that
affect
their
lives
and
also
the
pupils
from
from
galashiels
mentioning
you
know
the
parent
does
seem
far
away.
P
It
seems
like
a
big
achievement
to
become
an
MSP,
but
also
not
really
a
strong
and
kind
of
a
strong
passion
to
become
a
politician
either.
Maybe
loss
of
adjust
reasons
to
think
about
why
that
is,
but
maybe
you
don't
have
to
necessarily
be
a
politician,
and
maybe
people
would
be
happy,
and
I
want
to
stress
they
like
to
remember
rule
is
incredibly
important
with
an
apartment
but
m4.
Maybe
the
achievement
in
itself
would
be
of
people
in
Galashiels
feel
that
they
can
have
more
of
a
control
over
certain
decisions
that
are
made.
P
Maybe
in
terms
of
more
scrutiny
of
a
bell
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
then
that
that's
a
victory
and
that's
engaging
and
that's
more
participation
and,
like
others,
have
suggested
digital
engagements,
not
the
panacea
as
they're
one
of
the
peoples
of
mentioning
you
know
there
are
a
range
of
other
things.
People
would
like
to
see
happen,
and
but
I
think
that
the
recommendation
from
us
would
be
that
parliamentary
digital
engagement
should
be
part
of
parliamentary
reform
and
parliamentary
activity.
P
As
long
as
the
digital
is
part
of
that
broader
engagement
process,
that
Andy
was
mentioning
around
strong
process
and
integrated
with
and
outreach
work
that
you
already
do
and
I
touched
on
in
my
paper
at
a
number
of
areas.
Maybe
you
could
experiment
looking
at
the
stages
of
each
bill,
so
in
stage
one?
Obviously,
it's
an
opportunity
to
the
public
to
consider
the
general
principles
of
a
bill,
and
that
in
itself
is,
it
could
argue,
is
quite
difficult
to
do
in
its
current
format.
P
And
so
it
could
be
possible
to
break
down
the
aspects
of
the
bill
and
break
it
down
into
areas
where
the
particular
aspects
of
the
bill
have
impact
and
people
understand,
and
you
can
use
a
range
of
either
digital
engagement
tools.
And/Or
I,
each
to
get
the
kind
of
particular
points
around
that
part
of
the
bill,
which
is
what
they
do
in.
P
In
fact,
for
this
in
the
pilot
apartment,
a
citizen
project
and
we
are
they're
going
to
break
down
the
bill
into
chunks
and
then
people
can
discuss
and
proposals
and
cash
argument
finding
each
bill
and
make
people
kind
of
understand
that
a
bit
better
but
then
moving
on,
there's
also
an
idea
about
collaborative
drafting
as
well
again.
That
could
be
around
having
a
kind
of
more
easy
bit
version
of
a
bill
and
getting
people
again
to
continue
to
suggest
amendments.
Once
the
initial
secure
spare
scrutiny
has
taken
place
and
again
there's
different
digital
engagement
tools.
P
You
can
use,
but
also
those
other
forms
of
outreach,
but
you've
gotta
sleep
on
to
use
traditionally
that
committee
to
do
anyway
around
about
people
coming
to
give
evidence
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
And
then
the
final
point
is
around
around
the
kind
of.
If
you
have
stage
3
of
a
bill.
That
is
obviously
traditionally
members
with
the
side
we
would
put
forward
any
final
amendments
and
the
presiding
officer
would
decide
if
those
amendments
are
relevant
because
they
could
have
been
discussed
in
stage
1
or
stage
2
and
there's.
P
Obviously,
we
live
in
a
representative
democracy
and
you
know
elected
members.
You
know
there
to
represent
their
constituents,
but
by
working
together
with
people
using
different
types
of
engaged.
When
people
could
maybe
see
the
impact
of
their
engagement,
maybe
see
that
a
change
has
happened
to
the
bill
or
even
they
proposed
an
idea
that
maybe
initially
would
be
as
what
is
a
petition.
But
maybe
it's
maybe
change
that
focus
a
little
bit
and
think
about.
P
A
Thank
you
very
much.
Well,
just
even
from
those
of
us
never
mind,
your
written
submissions
and
publications
will
further
look
at
that.
The
promises
to
be
simulating
a
discussion
and
I
trust.
You
are
happy
with
we
all
just
use
personally
in
terms,
so
we
can
have
an
easy
discussion
around
the
table
which
involves
all
of
us,
so
there
and
a
half
or
so
I
can't
I'm
not.
I
can
resist
there
to
start
with
you
Andy
and
technologies.
J
I
mean
I'm
I,
step
back
I
work
with
a
lot
of
Parliament's
around
the
world
and
it's
a
familiar
problem
across
all
of
them
to
varying
degrees,
that
there
is
a
separation
between
Parliament
and
the
society
that
it
represents.
Parliament's
are
strange
animals.
If
you
go
to
the
zoo,
they
would
have
their
own
corner,
not
like
anything
else,
and
because
of
that
they've
become
quite
unique
in
the
way
they
operate
and
they're.
J
Quite
inshallah,
so
I
could
take
a
clerk
from
Brazil
and
pop
them
in
a
room
with
a
clerk
from
Westminster
and
they
would
have
more
in
common
than
if
they
walked
outside
the
building
and
talk
to
the
people
outside.
It's
a
very
specific
way
of
working
Parliament's,
there's
really
two
types
of
parliament
in
the
world:
the
British
and
the
French-
and
that's
it
they
look
the
same,
but
they
don't
look
like
the
world
around
them.
They
don't
operate
in
the
world
around
them.
They
operate
in
very
specific
ways.
J
It's
a
very
good
reason
because
they're
doing
a
very
important
role
of
creating
law,
and
that
was
seen
as
something
that's
very
important
and
very
specific
and
had
to
be
done
right.
The
problem
is
over
the
years.
What
it's
done
is
it's
become
very
insular
and
very
specialized
and
very
niche,
and
as
society
has
evolved
around
where
we
expect
things
to
be
open
and
transparent
and
to
be
able
to
take
part
and
understanding
them,
Parliament's
have
moved
a
lot
more
slowly.
So
there
are
some
good
examples
of
where
this
is
being
up
opened
up.
J
Alice
has
already
talked
about
the
citizens
and
Parliament's
and
France
of
the
open
ministry
in
Finland,
as
projects
in
Estonia,
there's
also
being
work
done
by
parliaments
in
brazil
and
chile,
where
they're
involving
citizens
in
the
consultation
and
the
committee
process
around
draft
legislation,
so
they're
creating
translation
layers,
but
the
problem.
If
we
look
specifically
at
the
Scottish
Parliament,
the
the
Scottish
Parliament
started
off
really
well.
J
J
So
how
do
you
open
up
that
committee
process?
Well,
that's
where
digital
engagement
comes
in,
because
we
want
people
involved
in
that
you
know.
If
we
look
at
the
UK
system,
we
have
the
Cameron
did
the
fantastic
thing
of
announcing
you
know,
twenty
ten
or
twenty
eleven
that
he
was
going
to
introduce
the
public
reading
stage
after
the
first
reading
before
the
second
that
they
people
compartment
forgot
to
tell
him
he's
already
existed
and
was
never
used.
J
Hadn't
been
used
for
a
hundred
years
and
it
turns
out
he
used
it
twice
and
didn't
use
it
because
it
was
a
bit
messy
because
people
had
opinions.
So
it
all
sort
of
went
a
bit
wrong
and
it's
quietly
parked
and
went
away,
but
that's
the
sort
of
thing
we
need
to
look
at
doing
now.
If
we're
going
to
look
at
doing
that
few
years
ago,
I
did
a
really
interesting
panel
to
the
clerk
of
the
Australian
House
of
Representatives,
and
she
said
I.
J
Don't
do
all
this
digital,
whose
Facebook
and
social
media.
If
you
want
to
talk
to
Parliament,
you
come
to
Canberra,
that's
where
we
are,
and
this
is
a
place
to
talk
so
you
come
to
Canberra
and
the
whole
room
looked
at
me.
It's
expecting
me
to
respond
and
I
did
and
I
said,
I
completely
agree,
but
what,
if
I,
can't
what
I
can't
get
to
Canberra?
It's
not
convenient
for
me
to
get
to
Edinburgh
to
give
evidence
to
the
committee
and
it's
not
convenient
for
me
to
turn
up
all
the
time.
J
So
what
happens
in
between
and
what
happens
if
they
do
go
and
give
evidence
to
a
committee
and
I'm
still
interested
in
how
do
I
follow
it.
How
do
I
take
part
and
find
out
what
happened?
That's
where
digital
is
really
powerful
because
actually
face
to
face
is
really
really
important,
and
I
love
that
comment
earlier
about.
You
know
we
need
to
do
the
face
to
face.
That's
so
true.
It's
good
hearing
it
from
someone
young,
because
we
have
this.
Myth
of
young
people
want
to
be
online.
All
people
want
to
be
in
the
room.
J
It's
just
so
not
true
being
in
the
room
is
fantastic,
but
I
can't
always
be
in
the
room.
I
can't
always
access
things.
So
how
do
we
develop
those
processes
and
committees?
A
good
example
of
making
the
committee
open
and
accessible
to
people
who
are
physically
there,
but
also
not
able
to
be
physically
present
and
want
to
take
part.
A
Parliament
opens
in
July
1990
moment
and
the
explosion
in
social
media
and
in
the
internet,
and
then
the
use
of
internet
and
in
digital
technology
and
the
facility
people
have
to
engage
with
it.
Are
you
saying
the
parliaments
fallen
behind
because
of
that
Horus
would
have
fallen
behind
anyway,
that
the
onset
of
digital
technology,
really,
I
mean
nécessaires
one
of
the
key
points
you
making
that
wonderful
publication
of
last
month
is.
A
You
should
be
triggered
by
what
should
not
be
driven
by
what
the
technology
can
do
rather
than
by
the
neat
I'm
wondering
is
behind,
for
using
only
is
that,
because
the
technology
has
that's
where
the
Parliament
had
fallen
behind,
has
fallen
behind
Brazil
in
terms
of
drafting
with
patron
and
etc,
etc.
Or
do
you
feel,
apart
from
technology,
if
technology
had
an
advanced
in
the
last
20
years,
as
still
would
have
fallen
behind
I.
J
Think
it
would
have
I
think
its
cultural
I
think
the
fall
behind
is
cultural,
I
think
as
the
institution
matures
and
become
established
at
you.
It
loses
the
innovative
culture
that
it
starts
with
and
it
settles
into
a
pattern
of
life,
but
it's
more
comfortable
with
and
it's
like
any
organization.
After
a
few
years,
you
basically
need
to
light
a
fire
underneath
it
and
just
warm
it
up
again.
You're.
O
I
grew
some
some
of
the
heads
of
argument
that
you
that
you're,
using
there
I
think
the
Parliament
is
almost
exemplary
of
what
you
would
do
if
you
were
to
set
up
an
institution
based
on
the
principle
of
consultation
and
I.
Think
what
what
a
number
of
it
would
suggest.
You
myself
included
is
that
we
need
to
move
beyond
our
consultation
and
towards
participation
and
I.
Think
the
the
way
in
which
the
Scottish
Parliament
does
things
like
pre-legislative
consultation
is
easy,
actually
we're
leaving
but
I'm
balls
while
leading
at
the
sunset
up.
O
But
the
problem
is
that
what
it
does
is
it
says
we're
going
to
listen
to
a
lot
of
opinions
and
then
we're
going
to
make
a
decision.
What
it
doesn't
to
do
is
say
you
can
you
can
participate
in
the
discussion
beyond
that
and
I
think.
The
anticipation
that
many
people
will
have
is
that
we
should
have
a
process.
That's
participatory
and
you
see
in
our
reporter,
although
it
doesn't
relate
to
Parliament
a
lot
of
stuff
around
participatory
budgeting
and
participated
replanning.
F
J
O
Well
and
I
think
we
have
a
situation
whether
if
that
doesn't
happen
and
I
mean
the
stories
that
you
hear
around
pioneers
in
participatory
politics.
Is
that
almost
always
there's
somebody
from
from
the
top
or
sometimes
from
a
layers
below
them?
Saying
that's,
not
acceptable.
We
can't
do
that
and
I
mean
the
process
in
Edinburgh
whether
where
they
went
through
with
with
Lisa
decides
they
had
officials
all
over
the
city
saying
it
would
not
be
democratic
to
have
people
involved
in
making
decisions.
O
F
J
Other
way,
but
if
you
think
about
that,
if
you're
doing
that
from
fairly
low
down
in
the
organization,
you
will
spend
a
lot
of
your
time
fighting
resistance
within
the
system
instead
of
actually
doing
it.
So
if
you've
got
the
key
to
successful
transformation
in
terms
of
participatory
culture
and
innovative
culture,
is
that
you've
got
high
level
support,
letting
you
do
it
and
not
getting
in
the
way
and
clearing
out
the
roadblocks,
because
that
can
be
done
from
the
top
and
then
the
innovation
can
be
done
from
underneath.
C
Can
I
ask
a
little
asian
ship
between
all
of
us
and
politics
and,
let
me
be,
let
me
be
clued
in
see.
Surely
it's
dysfunctional,
an
unconstitutional
as
a
majority
government
can't
enact
the
legislation,
it
stands
on
a
path
to
manifest
before
and
if
you
facilitate
ongoing
contributions
from
if
you
like
the
defeated
or
those
who
would
support
the
defeated,
then
thats-
that's
not
democratic
I'd.
P
Like
to
come
back
on
on
that
at
Point,
who
here,
obviously
everybody
I'm
guessing
people
quite
engaged
in
the
room,
voted
in
the
most
recent
election
Johanna
little
displacement,
some
people
have
keep.
You
keep
your
hand
up.
If
you,
the
person,
you
bought
it
for
one
right
and
then
maybe
wouldn't
be
long
run
using
their
hands
anymore.
But
if
you
don't
keep
that
in
your
mind,
that
keeping
the
mind
it.
P
Maybe
then,
when
or
if
they
want,
that
they've
become
part
of
the
government
and
then
do
you
agree
with
absolutely
everything
that
that
person
stands
for
and
thanks
that
they
should
just
be
an
acting
policy
left
right
and
center.
No,
that's
one
extreme
way
of
looking
at
it
and
it's,
but
what
we're
not
advocating
for
is
a
more
participatory.
Democracy
is
used
as
another
political
tool
to
be
government
over
the
head,
with
it's
more
around
getting
people
involved
in
shaping
the
decisions
that
affect
them.
P
What
I
said
to
government
officials
all
the
time
is,
for
example,
if
we're
doing
some
work
in
people
have
got
like
bold
ideas.
We
want
to
do.
Okay,
do
anything
you
want.
We
did
the
process
around
there,
fado
Scotland,
which
part
the
social
justice
action
plan.
Scottish
government
did
and
again
it
really
points
to
some
of
the
challenges
that
they
come
up.
People
the
analysts
look
to
all
the
things
people
would
I
could
have
mass
qualitative
said,
I
think
this
would
make
Scotland
theatre
and
they
broke
it
down
into
different
themes.
P
And
then
we
did
some
joined
up
deliberative
work
around
the
country
and
people
could
put
in
ideas
of
what
they
thought
would
make.
Scotland
theatre
and
people
could
prioritize
them,
and
that
was
deliberated,
but
at
any
point
what
would
have
been
good
is
if
you
can
get
that
better
connected
into
the
kind
of
officers,
etc.
Then
seeing
okay
well,
this
is
a
good
idea.
We
can
continue
looking
at
that,
or
actually
we're
already
doing
this
already.
P
This
is
part
of
government
policy,
or
no
we're
not
going
to
do
that,
because
it's
against
government
policy,
here's
the
reason
why
people
should
be
able
to
participate,
but
that's
the
patient
doesn't
mean
I,
get
everything
that
I
want.
It
means
that
I'm
involved
in
the
process
I
understand
it
and
I
see
at
least
some
sort
of
impact,
I'm
making
or
at
least
understand
the
reasons
why
it
doesn't
doesn't
work
in
that
way.
J
Think
it's
a
very
interesting
question
because
it
goes
to
the
heart
of
the
representative
process.
Any
political
party
that
can
win
an
outright
majority
is
successful,
but
that
doesn't
give
you
carte
blanche
to
write
bad
legislation
and
the
purpose
of
the
effective
committee
process
in
Parliament
is
that
it's
to
an
extent
d,
politicized
and
looking
at
the
veracity
of
the
legislation
and
a
strong
committee
process
and
a
any
political
party
in
government
that
believes
in
representative
democracy
should
actually
rely
on
that
process
to
ensure
that
there's
a
fair
and
just
legislation
being
poor
through.
O
Went
you
to
the
one
error
in
the
International
report
which
you,
which
is
where
we
say
that
there
is
just
what
is
it
slightly
llama
cart,
where
we
say
that
membership
of
political
parties
is
declining,
which,
of
course,
it
isn't
anymore
and
I?
Think?
Is
that
there's
a
really
interesting
observation
to
be
made
about
that,
which
is
that
when
political
party
membership
was
at
the
level
is
heart
known
previously?
In
the
nineteen
fifties,
those
political
parties
acted
as
interlocutors
between
government
and
the
people,
so
you
join
the
political
party.
O
The
political
party
took
on
board
your
your
positions.
It
took
lives
into
government
to
the
back
from
government
and
there
was
a
discussions
through
the
political
party.
One
of
the
observations
that
I
think
we
see
about
these
greatly
increased
political
party
memberships.
Is
that
they're
not
active
in
the
way
that
political
party
memberships,
previously
wire,
and
you
hear
that
from
all
of
the
political
parties
have
had
membership
surges?
C
P
Trying
comment
on
that
and
people
I
think
people
want
to
engage
in
different
ways
and
at
a
time
that
suits
them
such
as
why?
Maybe
the
digital
thing
is
important,
so
somebody
might
want
to
just
engage
45
minutes,
okay
and
that's
fine,
then
they
should
be
able
to
and
then
obviously
that
would
go
in,
along
with
all
the
other
kind
of
quality
server,
quantitative
data
that
you're
getting
on
that
really
quick
and
easy
engagement
process
and
then
there's
more
and
more
and
more
all
the
way
along
right
down
to
really
be
deliberative
process.
P
In
terms
of
the
feedback
that
you
get
your
right
because
you
could
present,
it
could
be
presented
in
such
a
way
that
we
got
the
feedback
and
it
was
super
fantastic
and
everyone
thought
it
was
amazing
and
it
was
the
greatest
thing
ever
and
actually
the
complex
nature
of
it.
Isn't
you
know
it's
not
as
concisely
as
clear
as
that
and
I
think
you
need
to
going
to
break
it
down.
In
terms
of
you
know,
these
are
the
decisions
that
were
made
and
here's
why
these
decisions
have
changed
and
as
simple
as
that.
P
But
then,
who
should
deliver
it?
It
made
me,
you
know,
is
it
a
issue?
Isn't
it
really
about?
Is
that
another
rule
for
Parliament
and
the
and
the
people
that
work
in
Parliament
as
the
kind
of
guardians
of
scrutiny
in
a
sense
that
they're
presenting
that
or
is
it?
You
know
something
for
dispatched
to
to
announce
it
from
the
government
site.
So
that's
like
interesting.
M
That
will
I
think
that
it
should
be
on
the
Parliament
to
provide
that
feedback.
It's
in
Parliament's
interest
to
get
that
contribution
and
I
think
there's
a
there's,
an
exchange,
their
of
people
given
up
their
time
to
provide
you
with
information
which
is
essential
for
sweetening
process.
I
think
the
very
least
Parliament
can
do
is
is
return
the
favor
you
like,
and
and
send
the
time
to
to
provide
that
a
batch
of
courtesy,
if
nothing
else
and
I
think
more
broadly
I.
Think
it's
I
think
we
also
about
engagement
and
I.
M
But
also
as
Andy
mentioned,
is
that
core
role
Parliament
is
to
hold
the
government
to
account
scrutinized
legislation
and
policy,
and
to
do
that
effectively.
You
need
a
range
of
expertise
and
evidence
to
do
that
effectively.
So
was
it
that
was
it's
really
important
that
you
get
an
extra
academic
view.
You
get
the
views
of
interest.
Groups
are
represented,
broader
range
of
people,
it's
also
within
parlance
interest
to
get
the
views
of
experts
who
have
more
direct
kind
of
lived
experience
or
and
user-led
experience
to
provide
members
with
a
range
of
expertise.
M
A
Completely
sentence
in
from
analysis
paper,
essentially
I
thought
was
a
very
high
benchmark
to
say
it
is
important
for
the
public
to
see
the
evolution
of
Paul
into
legislation.
Not
stopped
me
in
my
tracks
about
how
you
could
achieve
that
and
turn
that
into
practice.
Do
you
think
you
do
that
work
because
you
do
impressive
stuff
as
well,
but
could
you
say
that
you,
the
public,
see
the
evolution
of
the
policy
of
the
world
assembly
into
legislation?
No.
M
No
I
don't
think
so
the
and
it
doesn't
necessarily
end
up
in
legislation,
so
it
depends
it
as
a
parent
I
mean
Andy
and
then
a
piece
of
work
on
federal
protem
assembly
in
terms
of
its
digital
infrastructure.
We
have
challenges
in
terms
of
so
I'll.
Give
you
a
really
quick
example.
At
the
moment
we
have
a
compensation
which
is
looking
at
gathering
the
views
of
rail
passengers
on
the
future
rail
franchise
contract
and
the
South
Wales
metro.
M
So
we
have
a
consultation
running
there
and
there's
an
opportunity
to
respond
to
a
survey
for
that
consultation.
We
have
at
the
moment
with
I
think
a
couple
days
left
to
run.
The
survey
will
probably
be
hitting
around
three
thousand
people
in
terms
of
response
rate,
which
is
fairly
high,
some
by
our
standards,
I
think,
to
pick
up
on
Alice's
point
to
think.
The
challenge,
then,
is
to
look
at
that
as
yes,
brilliant.
M
So
the
struggle
that
we
have
at
the
Assemblies
around
right
we've
got
three
to
four
thousand
people
here
who
are
engaged
and
interested
in
this
things
that
the
assembly
is
responsible
for
if
we
can
keep
them
in
the
loop
in
terms
of
how
their
contribution
is
impacted,
changes
here
in
terms
of
the
scrutiny
process
for
this
specific
process
and
also
feed
that
back
to
them,
so
that
they
understand
what
the
value
of
their
contribution
has
had
long-term.
Then
beyond
that
process,
is
you
have
an
opportunity,
then,
to
continue
their
participation
and
engagement
with
you?
M
So
how
do
you
then
keep
that
relationship
going
where
they
receive
ongoing
information
from
us
receive
regular
opportunities?
Other
works
related
to
the
field
that
they've
shown
an
interest
in
and
I
think
that
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
opportunity
there
in
terms
of
digital,
that
can
help
institutions
like
the
Scottish
Parliament
or
the
National
Assembly
in
Wales
to
do
that
in
a
more
effective,
effective
way,
which
doesn't
require
me
for
Adams
sake,
who
holds
a
database
on
I.
M
Don't
know
on
my
personal
drive
of
a
whole
host
of
protection
issues
and
cigs
are
on
that
as
well.
So
I
think
that's
a
big
area
that
I
think
that
that
we
are
looking
at
as
moments
within
the
assembly
that
there's
great
potential
to
digital.
To
help
us
maintain
that
effective
relationship
with
citizens.
A
J
J
A
E
E
E
M
Having
digital
can
help
and
certain
extent,
but
I
think
to
the
point
the
Syrian
panelists
have
made
already
today
is
about
that
the
relationship
between
online
and
offline
and
not
looking
at
digital
as
a
solution
in
the
of
itself.
In
most
cases,
we
look
at
digital
as
a
way
of
scaling
up
work
that
will
be
doing
on
an
offline
basis.
In
any
case,
I
think
the
big
thing
that
I
think
that
we've
been
quite
good
at
is
around
integration
of
services.
M
M
We
have
a
large
number
of
people
can
include
the
door
in
the
same
as
on
a
daily
basis
as
well,
so
I
think
the
big
success
area
there
for
us
has
been
around
integrating
the
work
of
the
Assembly's
business
and
that
issue
focused
communication
method
and
participation
method
and
integrating
it
with
all
those
services
so
that,
in
every
interaction
that
people
have
with
the
assembly,
it's
not
just
them
sitting
and
listening
and
learning
about
the
assembly.
But
it's
also
that
participating
in
the
work
of
the
assembly
on
an
issue
that's
relevant
to
them.
M
So
they
get
into
the
habit
of
kind
of
feeling
as
if
they
have
a
role
to
play
in
terms
of
the
public
participation.
There's
a
lot
of
work
also
that
gets
them
working
with
key
partners,
so
different
community
organizations
influences
in
different
parts
of
the
country.
Network
groups,
representative
bodies
per
favore,
really
important
part
inseminated
with
information,
not
just
on
a
geographical
level,
but
also
in
terms
of
like
an
interest
level.
So,
if
fragments
sake
that
we
have,
we
had
an
online
space
that
we
were
encouraging
people
to
go
towards
as
a
consultation
platform.
M
So
if
you
look
at
other
kind
of
measures
in
terms
of
age
and
ethnicity
and
socio-economic
background
and
so
forth,
so
there's
a
whole
host
of
things
to
consider
when
you're,
looking
at
kind
of
having
a
relatively
representative
group
of
people
contributing
to
your
work,
so
I
think
those
are
some
of
the
things
that
I
would
suggest
to
the
way
to
try
and
try
and
achieve
that.
I
don't
think,
impacts
an
example.
M
One
of
our
committees
didn't
quite
looking
at
higher
education
funding
a
couple
of
years
back
and
they
wanted
to
engage
specifically
with
students
and
with
was
somewhat
students
studying
inside
of
oils
and
where
students,
students
sitting
outside
of
Wales,
where
we
used
digital
platform
called
Google
Hangouts
to
host
the
web
chats,
we
actually
had
a
well
students
studying
in
Edinburgh
University
taking
part
and
that
in
that
process,
so
digital
can
definitely
help
out
in
some
ways.
But,
as
you
know,
other
guys
mentioned
previously.
D
D
In
your
paper
and
talking
about
how
Parliament
need
to
kind
of
move
outside
of
their
comfort
zones
that
they
start
off
around
them,
I
was
wondering
if
the
assembly
in
particular,
had
any
any
kind
of
methods
or
strategies
for
getting
around
a
reluctance
of
parliamentarians
and
kind
of
policy
makers
as
well
in
driving
forward
digital
engagement.
If
you
had
any
kind
of
life
lessons
for
as.
D
M
I
think
it's
a
mocha
chair,
I
think
generally
at
the
Assembly,
where
it
was
fairly
lucky.
I
think
the
members
themselves
are
really
in
favor
of
of
doing
things
that
get
the
job
done
are
not
necessarily
bothered
so
much
about
kind
of
it
being
done
in
a
certain
way.
So
that's
nothing
really
advantageous
for
us.
M
Even
if
it's
something
that's
looking
at
rail
services,
for
example,
which
is
a
fairly
obvious
one
we'd
want
to
engage
with
people
or
something
a
little
bit
more
indirect,
like
inter-parliamentary
working,
which,
on
the
face
of
things,
may
not
be
as
easy
to
digest
for
people
or
that's
interesting
to
some
some
people,
and
so
I.
Think
having
that
conversation
on
the
objectives
is
really
important.
That
stage
as
well
I
think
people
learn
best
when
they
can
see
an
example
of
when
it's
worked.
M
And
then
you
need
to
have
a
couple
of
examples
where
he
said.
I
understand
your
concern,
but
the
last
time
we
did
it
or
the
first
time
we
did
this
happened
and
I
think
you
also
needed
to
have
a
little
bit
of
a
freedom
to
fail
culture
as
well.
So
if
something
doesn't
go
exactly
how
he
thought
it
was
going
to
be
for
the
first
time,
then
it's
okay
and
you
can
learn
some
your
mistakes
and
you
can
show
that
you
live
from
your
mistakes
as
well
meet
them.
It's.
O
Iiii
think
the
example
in
in
our
report
around
taiwan
is
a
really
interesting
one,
because
that
that's
a
process.
That's
done.
The
thing
that
I
think
anyone
involved
in
public
policy
will
always
point
is
the
most
difficult
thing
which
is
taking
people
very
strongly
held
opinions,
bringing
them
together
into
a
process
and
getting
them
to
agree
on
some
senses.
O
O
Discussion
around
an
issue
is
concerned
too
many
people
in
the
community,
and
it
then
transpires
that
there's
new
video,
not
community
council
hill,
has
children
of
school
age.
Now.
The
question
is:
why
that
why
do
people
aren't?
There
is
answered
very
simply
because
they
don't
want
to
discuss
blue
plaques
and
heritage
issues
and
there's
a
there's,
a
really
serious
question
when
you
get
there
about
the
actual
representativeness
of
these
structures
that
we've
got
at
the
moment
now.
I
think
online
gives
you
an
opportunity
to.
O
I
get
a
much
broader
cross-section
of
people
involved
in
the
process,
those
people
who
have
caring
responsibilities,
evenings
and
and
an
out-of-hours
and
perhaps
can't
come
to
those
sorts
of
meeting.
So
in
some
ways
it
can
be
much
more
representative
and
while
I'm
not
going
to
argue
that
a
panacea,
I
think
it
does
draw
people
in
who
otherwise
may
not
be
be
involved.
And
that
wasn't
the
seat.
I
can
usually
annette
and
browser
song
about.
A
F
J
J
Parliament
doesn't
do
policy,
Parliament
doesn't
do
sitting
in
a
church
hall
on
the
Thursday
night,
discussing
playgrounds,
Parliament
does
legislative
scrutiny
and
legislation,
so
the
opportunities
for
participation
engagements
in
a
parliament
are
actually
very
different
to
any
other
democratic
body
because
it
is
given
what
it's
going
to
do
and
then
has
to
follow
a
process
to
get
to
the
end.
There
are
opportunities
to
do
things.
J
So,
when
I
talk
about
the
culture
of
Parliament's,
you
need
to
deal
with
the
role
of
the
clerks
and
it's
a
natural
position
to
be,
and
it's
not
a
criticism,
because
they
do
a
very
good
job
of
running
the
place
they
keep
it
in
order.
You
will
want
to
let
the
members
loose
running
it.
Imagine
that
so
they
keep
it
all
in
check,
but
the
problem
is
that
was
the
system
that
we
follow
here
that
was
designed
for
500
years
ago,
and
it
were
very
effectively.
J
Then
the
world
has
changed,
so
the
role
of
the
clerk
is
now
really
actually.
If
we're
honest,
a
fundamentally
different
role,
the
role
of
the
clerk
is
a
convener
and
a
facilitator
and
they
need
research
support.
They
need
engagement
support.
So
if
you
now
look
at
the
team
that
should
support
a
committee,
it's
not
a
clerk
and
a
deputy
Clark.
J
It's
a
clerk
and
it's
some
kind
of
assistant,
some
kind
of
facilitation
roles,
some
kind
of
evidence
gathering
roll
some
research
role,
someone
who
can
process
what's
being
received
in
submissions
and
unqualified
so
that,
when
it's
presented
to
members
that
they
can,
they
can
be
more
informed
about
how
they
deal
with
it.
Someone
who
can
work
with
the
members
of
the
committee
to
make
sure
that
the
questions
they're
asking
their
witnesses
and
the
questions
they're
looking
at
in
terms
of
examining
the
evidence,
are
qualitatively
appropriate
to
the
committee
aims.
J
You
need
to
look
at
how
you
get
the
public
engaged
with
that
committee.
That's
a
very
specialist
role,
so
Kevin's
team
doesn't
assembly.
One
of
my
recommendations
to
the
welsh
assembly
was
that
they
create
effectively
what
is
a
SWAT
team
of
engagement.
Expertise,
not
that
it's
assigned
to
an
individual
committee,
but
the
expertise
is,
is
able
to
be
shared
out
across
the
assembly
and
one
of
the
reasons
for
that
is
that
it
doesn't
get
locked
into
silos.
But
we
need
to
share
this
across
the
institution.
So
I
think
to
me
actually
that.
A
J
A
degree
yeah
yeah,
the
wealth
is
a
good,
is
a
good
model
of
how
they
are
doing
this.
The
welds
actually
is
also
a
model
of
where
it
goes
wrong,
because
the
internal
IT
systems
in
Wales
I,
don't
think
Kevin
all
mine,
you're
saying
this
are
not
are
not
brilliant.
They
are
the
document
management
systems
and
the
publishing
systems
that
they
have
in
the
assembly
are
a
bit
out
of
date
and
our
creaking
around
the
edges
and
they've
got
two
systems
and
they
don't
link.
J
So
it
means
Wales
does
outward
outreach
and
engagement
really
well,
but
it
can't
close
the
loop
because
the
it's
unable
to
pull
the
stuff
together
and
get
back
to
you.
So
it's
an
example
how
you
can
have
really
good
intentions.
The
your
systems
can
get
in
the
way.
So
it's
about
you
know
it's
about
changing
the
way
that
we
look
at
those
systems
and
processes
and
you're.
J
Getting
a
new
legislative
drafting
system
in
Scotland
may
or
may
not
know
that
it's
developed
by
the
Scottish
Government
Scottish
Parliament
UK
government
UK
Parliament,
and
that
will
create
some
opportunities
to
create
more
open
legislative
tools
and
perhaps
increase
participation,
engagement
in
the
actual
legit
a
process,
but
it's
still
a
little
obscure
for
the
average
member
of
the
public.
So
it's
really
important.
We
have
this
human
face
of
engagement,
working
at
committee
levels.
O
Before
analysis
later,
let's
quickly
come
in
on
that
I
think
I
think
the
the
lab
hacker
model
from
from
Brazil
is.
It
is
a
really
useful
bolt
onto
that,
because
it
gives
you
a
way
to
keep
those
systems
up
to
this,
to
get
people
involved
in
developing
those
systems
and
to
make
sure
the
doctor
participatory
processes
well.
P
Yeah
in
terms
of
like
lessons
one
thing
I
would
raise
is
that
some
of
the
examples
that
we've
given
in
terms
of
engagement,
talk
about
government
policy
and
I'm
going
to
talk
about
local
authorities
in
a
minute
and
as
Andy's
correctly
pointed
out,
you
know,
there's
a
particular
constraints
within
Parliament,
but
there
are
still
opportunities
that
hopefully
I've
outlined
in
my
paper,
but
we're
participative
interventions
we
come
in.
So
just
so
know
that
I
make
this
example
from
what
we're
doing
in
terms
of
trying
to
grow
a
participative
infrastructure
within
our
local
government.
P
P
P
It's
obviously
the
lessons
that
you
learn
from
that
and
I
understand
that
you
know
maybe
things
that
you
might
think
a
high
profile
and
it's
too
risky
and
I
think
there
was
a
question
around
media
scrutiny
and
all
this
kind
of
stuff
and
fear,
and
that
I
think
if
it's
presented
that
an
honest
and
transparent,
where
that
you're
trying
to
do
with
it.
You
know
people
are
to
engage
with
a
parliament
more
and
it's
em
people.
You
try
out
different
methods
and
people
can
see
the
results
of
that.
P
B
They
could
still
be
doing
a
very
good
job
or
you
say
the
department
is
for
the
affected,
which
is
everybody
else
and
there
they
must
have
the
ultimate
thing.
Because
then
somebody
said
they
don't
necessarily
want
to
be
a
politician,
but
whatever
job
they
do
do
they'll
be
affected
by
what
the
politicians
do,
and
so,
if
you're
going
to
try
and
meet
that
balance
in
terms
of
engagement,
how
do
you?
What
metrics
you
use
to
make
sure
your?
Is
it
simply
getting
as
many
voices
in
as
possible
or
I
mean?
B
If
you,
you
could
say
on
an
issue
to
do
with
rail
extension
in
west
central
scotland?
Let's
ask
her
people
in
west
central
scotland,
but
ten
years
ago
the
people
gather
tools
would
have
been
very
interested
in
discussing
on
that,
because
we
won't
know
where
the
money
and
milk
was
going.
So
it's
just
that
sense
of
how
do
you
gauge
that?
J
It's
it's
really
hard.
The
default
position
is
we
try
and
measure
it
concert
actively,
which
is
absolutely
not
the
thing
to
do
so.
You
will
see
someone
say
well
this
committee,
three
thousand
submissions,
or
this
is
so
well
who
cares
and
it's
the
either
the
hundred
thousand
emails
from
Greenpeace
they're
worth
one.
J
So
we've
got
to
look
at
it
qualitatively,
and
that
means
it
takes
more,
resulting
is
to
go
back
to
my
point
before
about.
Actually
we
have
to
change
the
process
and
we
have
to
change
the
roles
of
the
people
involved,
because
we've
got
to
be
able
to
understand
that
the
qualitative
value
of
the
evidence
that
we're
getting
it's
not
really
realistic.
To
say
that
the
evidence
you're
getting
to
Parliament
is
going
to
be
representative.
Let's
be
honest,
it
rarely
is
going
to
be,
it
might
be
indicative,
but
it's
always
going
to
attract.
J
You
know
if
I'm
that
there's
an
interesting
thing
here,
that
digital
tools
will
not
change
my
motivation
to
engage
on
a
topic.
What
they
will
do
is
lower
the
threshold
at
the
point
where
I
can
engage,
so
that's
useful
if
I
have
to
track
off
to
a
building
on
two
buses
on
I
work
wed
thursday
night
I've
got
to
really
care.
All
I
have
to
do
is
open.
The
laptop
I
can
care
a
little
bit
less,
but
that
still
doesn't
diminish.
My
my
input
is
just
as
valid.
In
fact
it's
you
know.
It's
really
good.
J
We
should
be
spreading
that,
but
we
have
to
start
considering
how
we
wait.
The
evidence
that
we're
receiving
the
you
know
that
let's
go
back
to
your
your
your
point
there
about
you
know:
Parliament
is
elected,
it
should
just
get
on
with
it.
It's
a
very
interesting
theoretical
position
to
take,
because
it's
exactly
how
it
used
to
work
you
ride
off
on
the
horse
to
Westminster
and
a
year
later
you
come
back,
but
we
forget
that
in
our
democratic
system
we
look
at
Parliament
is
holding
the
government
account.
J
Well,
we
the
citizens
hold
Parliament
to
account
because
they
are
representative.
So,
in
the
modern
age
we
have
a
right
to
the
full
transparency
of
Parliament.
Everything
that
happens
in
Parliament
belongs
to
me.
So
when
I
have
a
conversation
and
I
have
too
many
conversations
with
too
many
Parliament's
about
why
they
can't
release
the
gaffer.
J
A
Okay,
deliver
specifically
mentioned
from
the
last
assembly
where
the
culture
committee
had
appalled
to
see
what
would
what
subject
should
be
the
issue
the
committee
should
have
an
inquiry
on,
as
I
understand
it,
kim
music
education
very
interesting.
That
could
you?
Could
you
pick
that
for
us
and
tell
us
what
you
learn
from
that,
because
there
must
have
been
intensified
as
well
as
outside
a
music
education
to
people
in
my
interest,
everybody
move
yeah,
okay,.
M
Yeah
briefly,
I
just
mentioned
that
echo
and
these
points
there
around,
because
I
think
sometimes
we
fall
into
that
captain
danger
category
as
well
are
thinking.
Oh
we've
had
a
massive
engagement
rate,
the
numbers
and
we
look
at
the
number
of
engagement
of
then
you
kind
of
get
obsessed
with
that,
and
you
just
play
numbers
game
words.
I
could
think
of
other
examples
of
more
qualitative
things.
We've
done
more
deliberative
stuff,
we've
done,
which
is
involved
a
far
lower
number
of
citizens.
M
That's
had
a
much
bigger
effect
on
the
end
results
than
the
recommendations
and
the
amount
of
mentions
a
get
in
a
report
fragment
sake
if
they
are
in
any
way
shape
or
form
indicators
of
effectiveness
and
imposing
to
kind
of
Lycans
a
specific
we're
doing
this
thing.
With
the
what's
language,
communication
and
culture
committee.
It's
a
new
committee
established
in
this
assembly
and
as
part
of
their
work
over
the
assumption
committee.
They
wanted
to
seek
the
views
of
the
public
as
to
what
their
main
property
should
be
over
the
next
term
of
the
assembly.
M
So
the
way
they
did
this
is
that
they
basically
use
a
mixture
of
methods
they
held
events.
They
run
the
consultation
through
traditional
formats
through
emails,
where
we
tend
to
get
interest
groups
responding,
which
they
did,
and
we
also
did
work
social
media
where
the
public
came
to
ask
weird
ideas
as
well.
The
first
time
we
used
Facebook
live
to
broadcast
the
work
that
the
witch
is
doing,
but
also
to
encourage
comments,
a
contribution
while
that
was
happening.
M
So
we
ran
that
consultation
pieces
over
a
period
of
time,
and
then
we
basically
collected
a
number
of
different
ideas
that
people
have
put
forward,
which
are
a
mixture
of
interest
groups
and
members
of
the
public
Committee
held
a
strategy
day
where
each
member
proposed
issues
that
stays
outs
that
they
would
like
to
see
represented
and
debated
over
the
life
of
the
committee.
We've
then
basically
had
a
public
list
and
the
numbered
list,
and
we
cross-referenced
them
so
where
there
was
commonality.
M
We
crossed
those
off
the
public
list,
because
the
members
of
the
committee
would
have
done
it
anyway.
So
what
was
left
was
the
list
of
11
issues
that
the
public
and
interest
groups
had
raised,
which
are
outside
of
the
members
list,
and
members
then
put
that
to
a
pole.
We
had
conversations
with
members
around
you
know.
M
In
case
you
know
something
happens
outside
of
their
control,
where
they
need
to
do
an
emergency
piece
of
work
so
that
more
than
reasonable.
So
we
had
2660
responses
to
that
pole
as
I'm
contradicting
myself
here
kind
of
playing
the
numbers
game,
we
did
have
a
reasonably
large
response
rate
to
it
and
yeah.
The
most
popular
issue
that
came
back
was
music
education
and
music,
music
funding
and
attitudes
to
that.
M
So
there
were
certain
issues
that
the
public
had
raised
around
the
committee's
portfolio,
which
wasn't
a
partner
at
all,
so
things
like
the
perceived
lack
of
representation
of
Welsh
issues
in
the
media
and
so
forth.
That
came
up
a
lot
from
interest
groups
and
from
the
public,
but
because
the
members
had
already
agreed
to
do
those
pieces
work
in
any
case
that
wasn't
a
part
of
the
pole.
So
what
was
left
in
the
pole
was
that
as
a
result,
then
it
was
happening
as
a
result.
A
M
M
Think
that's
where,
from
a
parliamentary
perspective
in
particular,
having
that
balance
between
online
and
offline
is
really
important,
because
the
majority
of
those
800
people
would
be
young
people
seen
by
our
education
and
youth
engagement,
team
and
I
can
guarantee
you
and
then
most
people
have
been
got
at
by
any
interest
groups.
So
I
think
it
helps
you
in
terms
of
the
proportionality
and
the
represent
representativeness
of
your
of
your
group.
C
Thank
you
just
come
back
to
something
and
Lisa
there
again.
I
mention
of
Devils
advocacy
is
a
one
hundred
thousand
emails
from
Greenpeace
versus
one
ministerial
meeting
with
by
the
road
haulage
Association,
and
you
know
the
discussions
about
nsider
groups
now
say
the
group's.
How
do
we
make
this
so
that
this
isn't
tokenism
because
there
is
a
danger
ho?
This
is
how
this
discussion
made
me
seem
yep,
absolutely.
J
J
If
you
look
at
something
like
the
Open
Government
Partnership,
that
I
mentioned
in
my
submission,
the
origins
of
that
come
out
of
the
banking
crisis
and
the
audacity
of
some
of
the
things
were
going
on
there
when
I
deal
with
in
the
UK.
It's
mostly
about
transparency
in
process,
but
when
I
deal
with
it
in
Latin
America,
it's
absolutely
about
stopping
corruption.
J
If
I
can
see
what
they're
doing
they
can't
cheat,
they
can't
take
bribes,
because
I
can
see
what
they're
earning
and
I
work
in
a
number
of
countries
on
where
political
corruption
is
very
real
and
much
more
problematic
than
here.
Political
corruption
in
the
UK
is
really
lobbying
and
that
sort
of
backdoor
conversation
that's
going
on
and
we
expose
that
by
making
sure
it's
transparent
either.
Do
we
any
meeting
that
a
minister
has
or
a
senior
civil
servants
should
be
public
and
not
just
some
sort
of
hazy
reference
to
it?
J
It
should
absolutely
say
what
was
discussed
at
that
mess
was
a
good
reason
not
to
it
should
be
published
that
information
should
be
accessible.
We
should
know
who
is
appearing
before
a
committee.
The
lobbying
register
in
scotland
is
at
least
better
than
the
UK.
The
UK's
one
is
the
only
people
that
don't
register
the
lobbyists.
J
A
O
Just
I
wanted
to
say
something
that
I
think
everything's
more
broadly
to
this
to
the
matter
at
hand,
which
is
that
there's
a
broad
economic
transformation
going
on
at
the
moment,
and
that
affects
education
and
the
way
in
which
people
will
work
and
we're
doing
some
work
on
that,
and
it
turns
out
that
the
things
that
you
need
to
do
to
be
you
will
need
to
do
to
be
a
successful
worker
in
20-30.
Are
the
sorts
of
things
that
you
do
to
participate
in
a
democratic
process?
M
We're
here,
jessica,
Lee,
getting
to
answer
your
question
around
the
token
isms,
I'm
adding
something.
That's
highlighted
a
lot
de
Nestor's
reporters
messing
around
timing
and
the
importance
of
early
engagement
and
not
leaving.
This
is
something
to
leap
to
do
right
at
the
end
of
the
process
and
I
think
going
back
to
Andy's
point
around
the
roll,
the
clocks
and
look
I
think
one
of
the
strengths.
You
have
any
assemblies
they're
the
kind
of
plumbing
system.
M
If
you'd
like
we
have
a
thing
that
we
call
an
integrated
team
which
meets
weekly
and
we
basically
are
made
up
of
Clark's
researchers,
lawyers,
translators
and
outreach
staff.
So
we
meet
and
discuss
what's
happening
next
week
week
after
and
we
discuss
what's
happening
over
the
next
couple
of
months,
upcoming
queries
and
so
forth.
Something's,
the
important
thing
they're
defective
planning,
early
engagement
of
members
as
well
to
make
sure
that
they're
shaping
the
direction
they
feel
they
feel
both
interested
very
least
was
the
last
thing
you
wanted
to
go
and
do
something
of
that.
M
It's
a
surprise
that
something
happened.
Remember
don't
really
have
to
shape
and
structure.
It
so
I
think
there's
some
really
operational
stuff
there
as
well.
The
better
examples
that
we
have
at
the
Assembly,
in
terms
of
where
citizens
participation
has
really
had
an
impact,
is
as
a
result
of
early
engagement
where
their
contribution
has
had
a
chance
to
shape
the
direction
and
the
focus
of
inquiry
not
use
and
I'm
following
them.
M
A
H
F
The
welsh
assembly,
being
a
good
model,
I
mean
going
back
to
your
initial
comment
about
Scottish
Parliament,
failing
I
take
it,
you
think
we
could
learn
a
lot
of
lessons
from
what
they're
doing
in
Wales
and
what
particularly
do
you
like
about
what
they're
doing,
not
just
you
but
Peter
and
an
ouster
as
well?
What
you
think
we
can
learn
from
that
and
I
just
want
to
ask
Evan
a
very
specific
question
about.
J
So
in
terms
of
what
could
you
learn,
I
think
actually,
Kevin's
last
answer
is
getting
there
early.
If
you
want
to
involve
people,
the
more
preparation
you
do
and
the
more
you
warn
them,
the
better
I
one
of
my
one
of
things,
I'm
doing
at
moments,
working
with
the
Parliament
of
Republic
of
Moldova
and
a
consistent
response
that
I
get
my
talk
to
civil
society.
Those
we
don't
have
enough
notice.
J
We
have
two
weeks
to
respond
to
a
committee
and
we
find
out
the
agenda
on
a
Monday
morning
and
it's
it's
a
constant
problem
for
them
and
I
think.
That's
quite
perhaps
it's
not
less,
not
a
particular
extreme
example.
It's
fairly
common,
but
the
more
you
can
plan
the
engagement
exercise,
the
more
you
can
involve
people
in
that.
It's
about
what
I
say.
J
You
know
actually
probably
know
this
many
people
and
they
know
this
many
people
so
part
of
your
outreach
and
your
engagement
strategies.
How
do
you
use
those
networks
that
you've
got
to
get
the
the
communication
out
through
those
networks
and
allowing
people
to
take
that
message
and
put
it
in
their
language?
Not
yours,
because
your
language
works
for
you.
It
doesn't
necessarily
work
for
a
group
of
16
year
olds
on
an
estate
in
Glasgow.
So
who
are
the
people
that
can
get
those
messages
out
for
them?
J
I
may
not
work
for
a
group
of
fishermen
in
the
Shetlands
so
who
them
who
can
get
the
message
to
them
a
very
different
messages.
So
it's
about
framing
what
you
want
to
do
and
using
your
networks
to
let
go
and
then
finding
ways
to
get
that
back.
So
it's
a
good
example
bring
this
back
to
digital
digital.
It's
not
a
very
good
way
of
having
a
good
conversation.
Actually
sitting
around
the
table
can
be
a
much
better
way
of
doing
it.
J
But
if
you
can't
do
that,
then
it's
better
than
not
doing
it,
but
what
digital
is
really
good
at
is
aggregating,
so
you
can
cast
out
and
you
can
bring
things
back
and
you
can
aggregate
pull
it
together
and
share
it.
So
it
makes
the
process
much
more
open
and
transparent,
and
it
is
unbeatable
powerful
for
doing
that.
So.
M
We
started
doing
that
really
recently.
Actually,
it's
not
something
that
we've
done
greatly
loved
at
all.
The
way
that
we've
gone
about
targeting
audiences
is
more
based
around
looking
at
the
issue
and
looking
at
who's
either
affected
by
other,
who
has
kind
of
a
more
practitioner,
expertise
in
that
area
and
using
that
as
a
other
men,
rather
than
looking
at
an
issue
and
thinking
how
a
broadly
representative
group
of
people
representing
the
public
would
think
about
the
certain
matter.
M
The
constitution,
Constitution
alleged
Affairs
Committee,
is
recently
currently
doing
a
piece
of
work
looking
at
inter-parliamentary
working,
so
we've
kind
of
gone
into
that
space,
and
that's
the
first
time
I
think
about
a
fortnight
ago,
where
we
got
the
group
of
sisters
together
and
book
about
them
again.
This
is
right
at
the
start
of
the
process,
where
it's
more
about
understanding
what
their
principles
are
around
these
issues
and
then
using
this
principle
to
feed
and
to
direct
the
inquiry
rather
than
leaving
that
engagement
on
a
pretty
technical
matter.
M
The
longer
you
leave
something
like
that,
the
more
difficult
it
is
for
your
average
citizens
actually
having
having
been
involved.
An
uninformed
contribution
to
it
so
there's
there's
a
second
meeting
scheduled
with
that
group
at
the
end
of
the
process,
then
explain
to
them
right
since
your
participation,
we've
also
spoken.
So
these
people
in
these
meetings,
new
settings,
they've
these
types
of
issues
and
some
of
the
confusions
we're
looking
to
get
to
are
some
of
these
here.
M
Hopefully
they
and
to
make
that
link
back
the
initial
engagement
and
get
the
finger
on
the
pulse
litter,
where
they
feel
those
recommendations
are
and
how
effective
they
are.
So
it's
something
that
we've
trialed
for
the
first
time
value
recently,
so
I
can't
speak
of
its
success
or
lack
thereof
or,
if.
A
I
could
just
figure
just
and
privilege
of
having
the
last
question
really
just
a
career.
We
are,
they
come
over
overall
time
to
remember
and
demand
some
other
people
with
them,
but
your
reports
in
january
makes
a
lot
about
one
of
your
key
themes
of
you
about
how
we
need
better
methods
of
evaluation,
and
I
think
you
say,
digital
democracy
is
still
young
using
some
wherever
we're
in
the
infancy
of
the
claims
of
engagement.
A
I
just
wondered
what
advice
you
would
give
us
on
evaluation,
because
the
theme
of
feedback
on
engagement
and
evaluation
inspires
the
feedback
and
keeps
the
loop
there's
no
point
of
staffing
of
something.
If
you
can't
close
a
little
complete
the
process,
the
big
challenge,
I
thinking
your
report
makes
I
clear.
I
wasn't
for
advice.
You
would
give
us
for
a
report
on
the
valuation.
J
Like
inside
very
simply
know
what
you're
evaluating
a
lot
of
evaluation
evaluates
the
wrong
thing,
and
one
of
the
challenges
with
democracy
is
we're
evaluating
the
short
term
ie.
Was
there
an
effect
here
on
the
the
outcome
of
this
inquiry
or
committee
or
whatever
the
process
is,
but
actually
there's
a
much
more
important,
long-term
strategic
objective?
We
should
be
trying
to
evaluate
which
is
this.
This
engaging
people
in
the
wider
democratic
process
and
building
trust,
so
I
think
we
have
to
bear
both
of
those
in
mind,
I
mean.
O
This
state
of
our
democratic
culture
is
and
that
that's
kind
of
the
big
go,
but
that's
the
thing
that
we
need
to
be
evaluating
through
things
like
turn
out
at
elections
through
things
like
the
the
the
number
of
people
being
engaged
in
processes,
but
also
the
quality
of
that
engagement
and
those
things
can
be
tracked
and
monitored.
But
it
and
I
think
it's
particularly
important
at
this
time
where
world
of
people
do
feel
shut
out
and
left
behind
by
by
democratic
process,
in
solitary
yeah.
P
In
terms
of
evaluation,
at
what
I've
done
with
the
PB
working
group
in
Scotland
as
all
the
stuff
about
well,
though,
there's
the
short-term
and
the
long-term
evaluation
aspects
of
different
bits
of
work
and
different
interventions
that
you're
doing,
but
some
of
them
are
get
so
many
variables
that
you
know
it's
hard
to
really
break
that
down.
So
I
think
what
Peter
is
saying
you
know
is
looking
at
how
people
have
felt
up
certain
process.
Engagement
processes
went
what
were
the
good
aspects
that
you
should
continue
to
do.
P
What
are
the
bad
aspects
that
maybe
you
should
you
should
change
and
then
yeah
looking
at
the
broader
kind
of
result
like
how
is
this
contributing
to
these
long-term
normative
goals?
But
then
I
would
add
the
caveat
that
there's
so
many
variables
within
that
that
makes
it
difficult,
and
I
want
the
stress
that
there's
been
a
lot
of
talk
of
care
like
transactional
democracy
or
transactional
participation.
So
voter
turnout,
you
can
send
a
submission
and
yeah
and
you
can
you
can
practically
notes
in
class
yeah.
P
You
know
you
can
do
all
these
things,
but
what
is
also
important
as
well
as
that
opportunity
for
deliberation
and
conversation
so
rather
than
you
getting
a
stack
of
emails
submissions
and
you
go
and
read
all
these
okay
yeah,
you
do
need
to
beat
them
Greek
them
down
into
the
teens.
Are
there
and
then
continue
to
have
more
conversations
to
get
further
along
the
line
to
where
you
want
to
get,
and
there
are
different
ways
you
can
do
that
and
different
tools.
P
J
M
From
YouTube
yeah
I
think
you
need
both.
So
if
you're
going
to
be
effective
in
closing
the
loop
to
people,
then
they
need
to
know
what
their
contribution
is
affected.
So
you
need
to
do
that
and
that
feeds
into
the
other
part,
then
around
understanding
what
impact
the
engagement
have
had
on
the
participant,
because
if
they
have
been
effectively
fed
back
to,
then
it's
likely
that
you
know
they're
going
to
you're
going
to
see
a
rise
in
different
metrics
I
mean
we
started.
M
A
Okay,
thank
you.
Thank
you
very
much
in
a
very
valuable
special
for
us
very
inspiring
is
very
interesting.
We
could
have
gone
on
for
four
hours
before
we
draw
the
session
to
a
close.
I
want
to
live
anywhere
else
in
the
room,
and
one
is
that
the
patience
to
sit
through
wide
awake
and
watching
the
backs
of
these
gentlemen,
who
know
their
feels
like
very
few
others.
A
L
For
you
discuss
today
is
kinda
sick
of
all
the
addresses
as
a
pension
age
of
speaker,
so
I
was
customer
than
our
core
business,
so
this
engagement
and
communications
high
up
there
and
it's
trying
to
get
balance
of
what's
best,
so
we
sort
of
traffic
continued
service
to
get
some
feedback.
But
it's
such
a
range
of.
L
All
I
different
method
to
communication,
so
it's
just
weighing
up
getting
your
message
across
to
get
an
information
across
and
me
in
your
audience
needs
it's
really.
As
you
say,
it's
really
really
difficult
to
get
that
balance.
So
I
can
see
that
it's
not
just
us.
It's
a
casa.
It's
a
trusted!
Boys
might
feel
that
everything
within
you
have
to
get
some
sort.
Isn't
it
if
you
guys
are
I
get
the
fuel
in
the
other
kind
in
the
same
place
is
really
actually
feeling
thank.
A
You
for
looking
after
thank
you
very
much
things
and,
and
every
driver
stations
are
closed.
We
we
have
a
public
event
in
a
adjoining
room,
beginning
at
six
o'clock,
which
everyone
is
very
welcome
for
I
fear
I'm
not
already
planning
to
be
there,
and
I
hope
you
might
change
your
mind
and
come
from
an
hour
and
a
half
and
give
us
a
benefit
of
your
views
about
how
we
can
engage
pepper
will
be
looking
at
issues
like
age
and
distance
and
language
and
how
Parliament
can
open
up
better.
If
you
can't
do
that,
I
hope.
A
You
remember
my
earlier
message:
we
have
an
online
star
p
on
our
website,
which
we'd
love
you
to
fill
in
it
young,
lady
UMSL,
and
you
still
have
a
chance
to
put
in
a
written
submission
and
if
you
haven't
already
done
so,
you
have
until
the
27th
of
march,
but
primarily
I
just
want
to.
Thank
you
all
gentlemen
here
table
everyone,
that's
in
the
room
for
sparing
the
talented
worth
of
today's
tremendous
afternoon
rush.
Thank
you
very
much.