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From YouTube: Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints - Part I - 20 February 2019
Description
1. Declaration of interests: Members of the Committee will be invited to declare any relevant interests.
2. Choice of Convener: The Committee will choose a Convener.
3. Choice of Deputy Convener: The Committee will choose a Deputy Convener.
4. Decision on taking business in private: The Committee will decide whether to take item 6 in private.
5. Timing of the Committee's inquiry: The Committee will consider the timing of its inquiry.
6. Approach to the Committee's inquiry: The Committee will consider its approach to the inquiry.
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A
Well
good
afternoon
can
I
welcome
everyone
to
the
first
meeting
of
the
Committee
on
the
scottish
government's
handling
of
harassment.
Complaints
can
I
remind
everyone
to
turn
off
their
mobile
phones
as
they
do
interfere
with.
The
sound
system
can
I
note
that
everyone's
here
and
no
apologies
have
been
received
agenda
item.
One
is
declaration
of
interests.
This
first
item
allows
committee
members
to
declare
any
interest
they
have
that
they
think
are
relevant
to
the
work
of
the
committee
and
background
information
has
been
provided
in
the
note
from
the
Clarke
paper.
A
F
F
Therefore,
there
may
be
individuals
who
come
into
the
gaze
of
this
inquiry
that
I
knew
or
whom
I
have
worked
with
and
I
do
not
consider
that
an
inhibitor
to
doing
a
job
on
this
committee
on
behalf
of
parliament
and
doing
a
robust
and
fear
a
job
that,
but
I
just
am
I
suppose
wanted
to
state
the
obvious
effort
for
the
record.
So
thank
you.
No.
A
Thank
you
and
myself
I
suppose
I'm
in
the
same
position
as
Angela.
So
while
it's
not
registro
interests,
I
am
in
the
same
position
as
I.
See
am
as
Angela,
but
otherwise
no
vegetable
interests.
Okay.
So
we
can
move
on
then
to
agenda
item
2,
which
is
choice
of
convener,
and
our
next
task
is
to
choose
a
convener
of
this
committee
and
the
procedure
as
explained
to
members
in
paper
2.
As
you
know,
the
parliament
has
agreed
that
only
members
of
the
Scottish
National
Party
are
eligible
for
nomination
as
convener
of
this
committee.
C
Wonder
whether
I
could
just
say
something
very
briefly,
there
is
absolutely
no
question
in
my
mind
about
the
personal
integrity
of
the
person
who
is
likely
to
end
up
being
convener,
and
that
is
quite
clear
because
I've
worked
with
her
for
many
many
years.
The
issue
at
hand,
though,
is
whether
the
party
of
government
should
be
able
to
appoint
the
convener
of
this
committee
and
I
say
this,
because
it
is
clearly
unprecedented
that
a
committee
of
this
parliament
is
handling
complaints
against
a
former
First
Minister.
C
The
actions
of
the
current
First
Minister,
both
of
who
were
the
leader
and
are
the
leader
of
the
SNP
I,
think
that
places
SNP
members
in
a
really
quite
difficult
position,
for
which
they
have
my
sympathy.
But
my
primary
concern
is:
is
one
of
transparency
for
this
committee
in
order
to
do
its
work
and
as
we
all
know,
you
know,
the
the
the
question
of
perception
is
all
in
politics,
and
the
perception,
unfortunately,
is
that
the
party
of
government
is
actually
appointing
the
convener
of
this
committee
and
I.
Think
that
would
be
unfortunate.
C
I
think
this
committee
needs
to
set
off
on
entirely
the
right
foot
without
fear
or
favour,
and
for
that
reason
I
would
ask
the
committee
to
think
carefully
about
whether
it
is
indeed
the
SNP
that
should
have
the
convener
ship
of
the
committee
and
failing
agreement
from
members,
because
I'm
conscious
that
the
Parliament
has
already
made
a
determination
on
this
I
would
wish
my
concerns
to
be
recorded.
Thank
You,
convener,
Donald's.
D
I
just
like
to
put
on
record
my
concerns
and
I
speak
to
for
Margaret
Mitchell
in
this
regard
about
the
fact
that
the
convener
of
the
committee
will
be
selected
from
the
SNP.
This
has
nothing
to
do
with
the
personal
qualities
or
integrity
of
Linda,
Fabiani
and
MSP,
for
who
I'm
the
for
whom
I
have
the
utmost
respect,
but
for
the
points
that
Jackie
Bailey
has
already
noted.
D
If
ever
there
was
a
moment
for
justice
to
be
done
and
for
justice
to
be
seen
to
be
done,
then
this
is
it
and
ultimately
it's
a
matter
for
the
SNP
members
of
the
committee,
because
in
line
with
the
bureau
discussions
the
vote
in
the
chamber
a
few
weeks
ago
and
the
rules
of
the
Parliament,
we
will
not
oppose
it.
I
simply
ask
SNP
members
of
this
committee,
even
at
this
late
stage,
to
reconsider
and
offer
the
convenor
ship
to
another
party.
E
You
give
me
no
and
if
I
might
add
in
reflection
of
the
comments
of
my
colleague,
sir
Donald
and
Jackie,
but
the
position
my
party
is
has
some
sympathy
with
these.
These
remarks
and
the
optics
of
this
are
not
great
the
Scottish
Government
to
be
chairing
this
committee.
However,
this
committee,
perhaps
unlike
any
committee
that
precedes
it,
will
undergo
a
level
of
scrutiny
that
no
other
committee
in
Parliament
is
often
afforded
as
such.
E
We
have
to
trust
in
the
property
of
our
members
and
the
recognition
that
they
will
perform
that
function
with
diligence
and
humanity
and
and
I
recognize
also
that
this
matter
was
settled
by
a
vote
in
Parliament.
So
I
share
some
of
these
concerns,
but
will
support
the
nomination
of
an
SMP
convener.
If
that
is
what
the
SMP
members
decide,
is
the
best
way
forward.
A
B
Thank
you,
convener
I've,
just
liked
to
point
out
that
the
the
Business
Bureau
agreed
the
Rema
and
the
membership
of
this
committee,
including
the
you
know.
The
the
matter
of
the
convener
and
Parliament
has
subsequently
voted
on
this
matter
and
I
just
like
to
put
on
the
record
that
you
know
this
issue
was
not
opposed
to
Business
Bureau
when
it
was
first
raised
and
I
have
every
confidence
in
this
committee
to
do
the
important
work
that
we
have
to
do.
A
A
We
have
had
situations
in
the
past
where,
because
of
the
default
method
and
the
way
it
works,
people
have
had
questions
about
the
convener
ship,
but
in
all
cases
it
has
gone
with
the
turn,
whoever
it
has
been
and
we
all
recognize,
I
think
the
nature
of
this
committee
is
perhaps
unique
in
the
lifetime
of
this
Parliament.
So
far,
so
I
think
it's
good
that
that
has
been
put
on
the
record,
so
can
I
invite
then
a
members
to
nominate
someone
from
the
SNP
as
convener.
A
G
Thank
you,
everyone
and
move
on
to
agenda
item
3,
which
is
the
appointment
of
deputy
convener.
The
Parliament
has
agreed
that
only
members
of
the
Scottish
conservative
and
unionist
party
are
eligible
for
nomination
as
deputy
convener
of
this
committee,
so
I
may
I
invite
nomination
for
a
member
of
the
Scottish
Conservatives
as
deputy
convener.
G
G
So
what
I'm
proposing
here
is
that
we
discuss
in
public
the
timing
of
the
committee's
inquiry,
as
outlined
in
the
paper
from
the
clerk
that
you
already
have,
but
I
would
also
like
committee
to
go
into
private
session
for
a
short
time
to
discuss
in
more
detail
how
we
may
wish
to
approach
them
quietly.
Overall,
that
will
include
discussing
on
which
D
and
at
what
time
we
should
meet
in
the
future,
because
everyone
has
other
commitments.
G
G
G
Everybody
has
read
the
remit
and
read
the
papers
that
have
been
put
forward
and
considering
the
timing
of
the
enquiry.
The
the
butyl
parliamentary
Bureau
agreed,
of
course,
that
listen
quietly
should
not
impede,
interfere
with
or
replicate
investigations
ongoing.
Nor
should
it
prejudice
any
subsequent
legal
proceedings.
We
all
know
that
court
proceedings
are
now
active
and
the
parliaments
objective-c
rule
no
applies.
B
I
just
wonder
if
it
might
be
possible
for
the
committee
to
write
to
the
Scottish
Government
and
ask
for
timing.
You
know
with
regards
to
the
you
know
the
other
investigations
that
were
we're
waiting
to
learn
more
off.
You
know
just
retaining
of
the
court
referral
and
the
internal
review
so
we're
in
a
better
position
to
understand
when
that
might
be
complete.
H
B
H
Know,
there's
a
danger
that
this
this
committee
may
be
and
suspended.
You
know
who
have
to
subdue
DC
and
rules
are
looked
at
and
there
is
I
agree
with
Alec
Cole
Harmon
to
useful
information
that
can
be
gathered
snow
that
will
help
her
our
investigation
and
our
inquiry
when
we
do
actually
take
that
up
formally
and
it's
all
about
complaints
to
an
extent.
H
So,
for
example,
looking
back
at
her
complaints
have
been
handled
since
the
inception
of
the
heart
of
the
the
Parliament
would
be
useful
background
information,
and
perhaps
more
of
that
detail
we
can
hammer
out
and
in
in
private,
but
I
think
on
the
record.
I,
don't
think
we
need
to
be
standing
still
just
now,
there's
useful
work
that
can
be
done.
That
will
aid
our
inquiry
in
the
longer
term.
D
You
Kevin
on
a
slightly
different
point,
but
relating
to
timing,
no
issue
at
all,
of
course,
with
the
the
substantial
point
about
delaying
until
proceedings
have
finished,
I,
simply
wonder
whether
there's
a
mechanism
where
either
formally
or
informally,
the
committee
might
note
where
progress
stands
say
every
three
months
or
convened
very
briefly.
Just
so
we're
we're
up
to
date
and
we
don't
postpone
indefinitely
simply
an
observation.
I
just
wanted
to
race.
F
Conclude
and
I
think
it
is
important
that,
in
terms
of
this
committee,
that
we
perhaps
receive
our
own
advice
on
that
point,
my
you
know
understanding
as
a
known
legal
person
is
the
the
sub
judice
II
use
me
inhibit
or
prevent
aspects
of
the
quiet
in
terms
of
the
marketing.
People
must
definitely
want
to
do,
but
I
would
appreciate
some
advice
on
and
at
other
point,
that
mr.
ku
Hamilton
raised
I
think
we
should
consider
for
that.
F
C
I
would
agree
that
I,
don't
think
we,
as
a
committee,
can
do
anything
that
would
run
the
risk
of
interfering
with
what
goes
on
in
court,
both
for
the
sake
of
the
defendant
and
indeed
the
prosecution.
So
I
would
be
opposed
to
us
doing
anything.
Formal
that
said,
I
do
think
there
is
an
opportunity
for
some
informal
evidence
gathering
that
would
pave
the
way
for
future
committee
meetings
and,
as
such
I
think
we
should
meet
from
time
to
time.
C
Once
things
are
continuing,
the
other
point
I
would
make
convener
is
I,
don't
believe
we
should
wait
for
the
outcome
of
the
Scottish
government
review.
Nor
do
I
believe
we
should
wait
for
the
outcome
of
the
First
Minister's
self
referral.
Under
the
ministerial
code
of
conduct.
This
committee
have
been
given
a
remit
by
Parliament
and
we
can
work
out.
You
know
the
logistics
of
things
happening
at
the
same
time,
but
certainly
I,
don't
think
we
should
delay
for
any
other
reason
than
live
legal
proceedings.
A
Yes,
thank
you
and
I'm
a
bit
concerned
about
the
prospect
of
taking
in
formal
evidence,
because
I
think
one
of
the
problems
is
that
that
might
convene
sub-judice
II
rules,
so
I
think
it's
really
important
that
if
there
is
anything
we
can
do
to
make
ourselves
more
aware
of
background
that
we
do
that.
So,
if
there's
reading
stuff
from
standards
and
procedures
committee
previous
actions
that
might
be
relevant
or
whatever
I
think
we
should
do
that
so
that
when
this
came,
she
does
convene
after
the
legal
proceedings
that
we
are
prepared.
C
E
This
exactly
the
same
point
just
for
the
sake
of
clarity,
convenor
I
understand
entirely
more
in
one's
point.
However,
I
am
anxious
about
us
individually,
going
off
and
doing
private
study
about
this
I'd,
rather
that
we
all
have
the
same
information
and
were
on
the
same
page
when
we
did
reconvene
well.
G
Can
I
say
as
convener
that
everything
that
has
been
said
here
it
reflects
the
thoughts
that
I
have
had
about
this.
What
I
would
suggest
that
we
do
is
take
all
these
points
on
board
and
with
our
clark's
and
put
that
together,
Margaret
and
I
can
have
a
look
at
it
and
then
circulate
to
the
committee
a
view
of
how
we
think
we
should
proceed
with
this
in
terms
of
what
we
can
actually
gather
together
as
background
information.