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From YouTube: COVID-19 Committee - 9 September 2020
Description
COVID-19 Committee
A
And
welcome
to
the
15th
meeting
of
the
covid
19
committee.
We
have
apologies
from
rox,
greer,
msp
and
beatrice
richard
msp,
who
are
both
attending
other
parliamentary
committees
this
morning.
I
would
also
like
to
welcome
willie
rennie
msp
to
the
meeting,
who
is
a
substitute
for
beatrice
and
christine
graham
msp,
who
has
an
interest
in
the
matters
we
are
discussing
and
considering
today,
and
I
welcome
christine
to
this
meeting.
A
B
A
A
Extending
emergency
legislation
is
a
significant
step
when
it
comes
to
individual
liberty,
for
example.
The
committee
has
received
several
submissions
relating
to
the
rights
of
children
and
the
impact
extending
emergency
legislation
has
on
them.
Can
I
ask
what
is
the
justification
for
an
extension
to
emergency
powers
here,
in
the
view
of
our
witnesses?
E
Thank
you
very
much
convener.
So
I've
been
invited
to
give
evidence
again
to
the
committee
today
to
provide
a
public
health
perspective.
I
don't
have
any
legal
expertise
or
nor
human
rights,
which
I
know
are
issues
at
hand.
What
I
would
just
say
in
terms
of
opening
remarks
in
response
to
that
question,
we're
still
in
the
middle
of
a
global
crisis.
F
G
G
G
The
laws
which
have
been
passed
and
there
have
been
many
subordinate
orders
passed
through
the
scottish
parliament.
I
think
the
total
yes
there's
something
like
64
radiations
concerning
violence.
Okay,
that
shows
you
the
grids
of
activity
which
needs
to
be
done
in
terms
of
keeping
us
safe
and
the
word
proportionality.
G
I
know
there
was
a
debate
about
proportionality
at
another
meeting
of
the
committee,
and
perhaps
we
can
come
back
to
that
or
if
you
want,
I
can
see
a
few
words
about
it
now
and,
and
it
is
time
limited
and,
of
course,
these
regulations,
which
are
before
the
committee
today
indicate
the
time,
limited
nature
and
the
required
to
extend
if
the
statutory
time
limits
have
been
met.
So
I
don't
know
if
you
want
me
to
go
further
on
proportionality,
convener,
but.
G
Legislation
is
used
to
achieve
that
aim
being
a
component
of
of
that
consideration.
That
would
include
questions
which
government
would
ask
themselves
before
bringing
an
order
before
the
parliament.
It
would
be.
Why
are
the
rights
being
restricted
and
is
that
what's
the
problem
which
needs
to
be
resolved?
G
A
H
H
If
we
think
about
it
in
terms
of
the
actions
that
people
need
to
take,
you
know
we
still
need
the
general
public
to
take
specific
action
in
their
own
life.
We
still
need
action
to
be
taken
in
the
workplace
in
order
to
put
in
mitigations
that
stop
the
spread
of
the
virus,
and
it's
for
that
reason
that
we
we
do
need
to
continue
to
have
the
some
level
of
powers
enacted,
because
it
simply
isn't
business
as
usual.
A
I'm
grateful
for
that.
My
next
question
is
a
is
a
follow-on
to
that
in
various
lockdowns.
To
date,
the
scottish
government
have
sometimes
used
guidance
and
sometimes
used
regulations
to
direct
the
public.
Do
witnesses
think
that
that
is
an
effective
method
and
what
implications
does
that
distinction
have
for
parliamentary
scrutiny
and
for
enforcement.
E
Certainly
so,
if
I
just
reflect
on
wider
public
health
measures,
where
guidance
and
regulation
both
have
distinct
purposes,
the
guidance
is
effectively
giving,
and
I
think
in
this
crisis
as
well
evidence-based
information
to
the
public,
about
actions
that
need
to
be
taken
so
to
use
examples
here.
The
facts
campaign
the
the
behaviors
that
we
are
asked
to
engage
in
as
part
of
that
public
health
campaign
and,
however,
in
some
cases,
enforcement
which
is
necessary
regulations
are
necessary
to
empower
or
make
possible.
E
Enforcement
is
needed
to
send
a
clear
message
to
the
public
that
if
there
are
breaches
of
what
is
effectively
guidance
there,
there
are
regulations
which
allow
the
police
or
others
take
action.
So
the
very
good
examples-
and
this
would
obviously
be
being
able
to
take
action
on
large
gatherings
if
people
are
doing
those
unnecessarily
and
also
being
able
and
to
take
action
if
people
are
being
put
at
risk.
In
particular,
groups
is
not
just
police
powers
but
other
public
bodies
as
well.
E
G
G
And
so
therefore,
it's
important
that
we
realize
that
the
regulations
are
of
supreme
importance,
because
it
is
where
the
the
issues
which
that
syria
has
highlighted
without
legality
crystallized,
the
the
regulations
have
to
be
scrutinized
and
by
parliament
and
passed.
And
although
many
of
them
are
made
affirmative
regulations.
G
A
Thank
you
michael.
I
I
think
we're
having
some
problems
with
with
your
connection
and
I
think
for
that
reason
the
broadcasting
team
have
have
taken
your
video
off,
but
we
can
can
still
hear
you
and
I
hope
we
can
resolve
that
I'll
move.
Finally
to
helen
martin
for
for
her
answer
on
this
and
and
then
I'll,
the
next
question
will
come
from
shona
robertson.
H
Thank
you.
I
think
the
issue
here
is
one
where
I
think
the
vast
majority
of
ordinary
people
don't
actually
necessarily
understand
what
is
being
given
as
guidance
and
what
is
being
given
as
legislation
so
oftentimes.
What
really
matters
to
people
is
the
tone
in
which
the
guidance
is
given.
So
it's
similar
to
the
the
point
that
michael
was
making.
H
People
are
really
relying
on
the
way
that
is
expressed
from
the
first
minister,
and
so
there
are
examples
of
of
things
that
were
really
just
guidance
being
accepted
by
the
public
as
legislation
in
the
example
michael
just
described,
but
there's
also
examples
of
things
being
given
initially
as
guidance
and
not
very
well
accepted
by
the
public
and
then
having
to
move
to
legislation
so,
for
example,
the
face
coverings
and
public
transport.
I
mean
there
was
quite
a
long
period
of
time
where
that
was
just
guidance,
and
actually
there
was
a.
H
There
was
a
feeling
from
the
government
that
you
know
they
needed
to
put
that
in
the
legislation,
because
the
numbers
of
people
using
face
coverage
was
so
low
and
actually
the
people
who
even
were
using
face
coverings
on
buses
were
saying.
I
feel
so
uncomfortable
using
this,
because
so
few
people
are
using
it
that
they
needed
to
make
it
mandatory
in
order
to
actually
see
people
using
it
in
numbers,
and
I
think
there
is
that
kind
of.
H
I
think
that
leads
me
to
the
point
where,
if
people
feel
that
it's
a
requirement-
and
they
feel
that
there's
some
level
of
enforcement
behind
it,
then
they
will
start
to
comply
because
the
vast
majority
of
people
are
law
abiding,
but
and
it's
about
creating
that
that
feeling
that
things
need
to
be
done,
and
sometimes
legislation
is
the
only
way
to
do
that.
But
it
is
also,
I
think,
useful
to
issue
guidance
and
and
encouragement
as
well
and
at
times
that
can
be
sufficient
in
order
to
get
people
to
change
their
behavior.
A
Thank
you
very
much.
I'm
now
going
to
turn
to
other
colleagues.
Before
I
do
say,
can
I
just
remind
members
of
the
committee
and
attendees
to
perhaps
pause
for
a
couple
of
seconds
just
before
they
ask
their
question,
so
broadcasting
can
can
hear
it,
and
I
would
also
say
that
if
you
I've
asked
my
questions
to
every
member
every
witness
attending,
but
colleagues
may
wish
to
direct
specific
questions
to
specific
witnesses.
So,
first
of
all,
please
can
I
ask
shauna
robertson
for
her
questions.
I
So
I
guess
maybe
turning
to
professor
linda
baldwin
and
john
usher.
First,
have
you
any
view
about
how
public
consent
and
communication
to
the
public
is
best
carried
out
at
a
time
where
things
are
changing
almost
on
a
week-to-week
basis?
And
what
is
your
view
around
the
the
level
of
public
support
for
these
measures?
I
mean
there
is
a
view
that
there
is
a
a
difference
in
terms
of
the
the
age
of
the
population
and
whether
or
not
young
people,
for
example,
are
adhering
to
to
the
guidance
and
to
the
regulations.
I
E
Thank
you
very
much
shoulder
so
you've
raised.
I
think
three
issues
there.
The
issues
around
the
timing
of
announcement
of
new
measures,
the
the
public
support
for
that,
which
I
do
think
is
going
to
be
an
ongoing
issue,
and
then
how
do
we
support
different
groups
to
comply?
And
what
evidence
is
there
on
that
from
data
that
we
have
so
the
first
thing
from
a
public
health
perspective?
E
The
main
reason
as
you're
all
aware
why
some
of
these
changes
are
introduced
incredibly
rapidly
is
because
time
is
absolutely
crucial
when
you
have
virus
that's
highly
infectious
and
moves
incredibly
quickly.
So
the
reason
why
things
are
introduced
with
just
a
few
hours
noticed
often
over
24
hours
is
because,
as
soon
as
the
data
suggests
that
you
know,
one
person
could
spread
it
to
another
and
and
looking
at
our
numbers
as.
I
E
Know
they're
now
up
between
0.9
and
1.4,
so
there
really
is
potentially
in
some
communities
active
spread.
You
need
to
shut
down
those
chains
of
transmission
asap.
So
that's
the
reason
for
speed,
but
I
don't
think
that
the
public
actually
understand
that
as
well
as
they
could.
They
probably
understand
it
better
here
in
scotland,
because
we
continue
to
have
daily
briefings
and
but
I'm
far
less
so
in
england.
So
I
from
a
behavioral
perspective.
E
So
in
some
of
the
interviews
I've
been
doing
this
morning
on
the
new
restrictions
in
england,
I
was
quite
rightly
asked:
why
are
they
coming
in
next
monday?
Why
are
these?
Why
are
there
several
days
delayed
for
that?
In
contrast
to
bolton
that
were
given
24
hours
for
a
new,
quite
restrictive
local
lockdown,
so
better
communication
on
that
is
key.
E
That
said
and
bear
with
me
convener,
because
I
want
to
go
into
a
little
bit
of
details.
This
might
take
a
few
minutes
is
there's
absolutely
it's
absolutely
crystal
clear
from
the
ucl
social
impacts,
survey
and
others
that
public
support
for
the
government's
approach
in
scotland
is
significantly
higher
than
it
is
in
england,
and
indeed
other
parts
of
the
uk.
Scotland
is
at
the
top
of
that.
When
you
look
at
the
graphs
that
has
been
the
case
from
early
in
the
pandemic.
E
What
we've
seen
in
recent
months,
however,
all
across
the
uk
and
in
scotland,
is
that
there's
a
gradient,
so
it's
declining
public
support
is
declining
for
the
measures
that
are
being
put
in
place
and
for
the
government's
messaging
and
and
the
measures
generally
and
the
support
is
lower
among
men
compared
to
women,
but
not
all
groups
of
men
and
it's
slightly
lower
amongst
young
people
and
compliance
is
lower
amongst
young
people.
But
that
is
not
unusual
to
me.
E
E
And
so
we
need
to
be
cognizant
of
that.
And
just
my
final
point
in
terms
of
showing
you
asked,
how
do
you
enhance
engagement?
You
need
a
stratified
targeted
approach
to
communicate
to
different
groups
in
the
population,
so
how
we
might
communicate
to
older
people
who
were
shielding
will
be
different
from
how
we
communicate
to
young
people
in
school
or
those
who've
just
left
school.
E
And
it's
different
when
it's
people
from
different
ethnic
minority
backgrounds,
and
so
we
need
to
support
our
third
sector
and
community
groups
and
others
and
to
make
sure
that
they
have
adequate
resources
to
diffuse
or
disseminate
the
public
health
messaging
appropriately
to
their
communities
and
to
build
engagement
and
ownership.
Because
again,
research
shows
that
the
tailored
segmented
approach,
rather
than
just
national
campaigns,
is
really
important.
Sorry,
that
was
a
lengthy
responsibility.
I
Thank
you
for
that.
That
was
some
fascinating
information
contained
there.
Professor
paul,
I
wonder
if
I
could
just
also
ask
a
question
about
balance
of
risk,
and
it
strikes
me
again
that
we
are
as
well
as
the
the
numbers
beginning
to
go
up,
we're
also
entering
a
really
difficult
period
with
enhanced
risk,
so,
whether
it's
students
going
back
to
universities,
more
people
going
back
to
offices,
all
of
which
gives
the
virus
opportunities
to
spread.
H
Absolutely
I
couldn't
agree
more.
I
think
our
position
is
very
much
a
safety
first
position
and
if
working
from
home
is
working,
then
there
is
absolutely
no
reason
for
anybody
to
return
to
offices
over
the
next
period.
In
fact,
we
are
look,
we
are.
We
are
working
on
a
working
group
just
now
that
is
looking
at
this
very
issue
and
we
have
been
taking
evidence
around
the
economic
impact
of
office
closures
and
it's
not
as
clear-cut
as
the
debate
might
currently
look.
H
I
think,
given
that
it's
an
enclosed
space,
people
are
within
one
meter,
they're,
you
know
potentially
with
strangers
it's
it's
not
good
to
see
a
sort
of
peak
around
commute
times
which
currently
doesn't
exist,
but
if
office
workers
go
back
then
we
would
be
likely
to
see
that
sort
of
pattern
of
behavior
and
re-emerge,
and
that
would
be
very,
very
negative.
Indeed.
You
then
have
to
think
about
the
types
of
office
buildings
that
people
are
returning
to
some
of
them
have.
Quite
you
know
they
don't
have
windows
that
open.
H
They
have
air
conditioning
systems
that
circulate
air.
These
are
all
potentially
quite
problematic
things
as
we
move
in
into
winter,
and
if
it's
unnecessary
for
people
to
be
in
those
spaces
and
they
are
working
effectively
at
home,
then
we
think
for
for
the
balance
of
public
health.
Good
people
should
be
staying
at
home,
working
at
home
and
continuing
in
in
that
way,.
I
A
D
Well,
thank
you
very
much
convina,
I'm
very
much
obliged
to
let
me
come
along
extremely
interesting.
I
wish
I'd
come
to
this
committee
before
and
interested
that
the
data
on
transmission
is
quite
often
related
to
gatherings
within
households
and
so-called
house
parties,
but
I
want
to
focus
if
I
may,
and
commercial
house
parties
or
large
gatherings,
raves
things
like
this
and
to
put
it
into
the
context
of,
I
think
professor
balting,
a
segmented
approach
when
you're
enforcing
or
putting
forward
regulations
that
takes
away
some
liberties.
D
I
mean
currently
my
understanding.
I
I
stand
to
be
corrected
by
michael
clancy,
probably,
and
professor
bald
others
is
that
those
attending
such
a
thing
as
a
large
house
party
or
a
way
they're,
subject
to
covert
regulations
and
can
be
fined
if
necessary,
by
the
police,
but
those
organizing
or
permitting
to
be
organized
in
a
place
are
not
subject
to
covered
regulations
but
in
fact,
have
to
be
pursued
under
the
criminal
law,
as
this
happened
in
my
constituency
where
there
were
300
and
the
police
had
to
use
the
criminal
law.
D
Now
I'm
looking
at
deterrent,
rather
deterrence
rather
than
and
please
having
to
be
involved
all
the
time.
So
what
I'm
wanting
to
ask
whoever
thinks
this
is
relevant.
I
think
public
health
point
of
view
from
a
legal
point
of
view.
Do
you
think
we
require
regulations
targeted
at
those
who
organize
or
permit
to
be
organized
at
these
large
gatherings
or
raves
and
they're
commercial?
D
And
you
know
we
do
think
that
perhaps
substantial
fines
and
even
confiscating
their
profits?
It
would
be
something
that
could
be
considered,
given
that
it
seems
to
be
the
way
that
we
are
now
going
we're
going
to
get
tougher
and
do
you
think
that
would
reduce
transmission
in
any
substantial
way,
because,
as
far
as
I
know,
track
trace
is
almost
impossible
and
do
you
think
this
would
have
public
support,
because
I
hear
what
professor
bald
says
about
unrest
and
so
on.
D
E
Certainly
thanks
convener
and
thank
you
christine.
Obviously,
I
can't
comment
on
the
the
nuances
between
those
two
different
aspects
in
terms
of
how
the
law
works,
but
I
I
absolutely
understand
your
point
from
a
public
health
perspective.
So
these
large
indoor
events
I
mean
at
the
moment
are
highly
irresponsible
and
I
think
people
are
frustrated.
E
E
To
return
to
my
earlier
point
in
the
opening
comments
that
the
convener
asked
for,
and
enforcement
and
penalties
are
useful
from
a
public
health
perspective
because
they
enhance
compliance,
and
I
think
that
helen
was
saying
in
the
case
of
face
coverings
and
if
you
have,
if
the
public
know
that
if
they
don't
follow
guidance
that
there
will
be
a
consequence
to
that,
but
then
you
do
see
compliance
increases.
We
see
that
consistently.
E
You
pick
a
public
health
topic
and
that
that
is
the
case,
and
so
I
think
those
organizing
really
need
to
be
cognizant
of
the
fact
that
they,
you
know
there
are
consequences
to
them
doing
that
and
of
course,
people
want
to
profit
and
they
don't
care
about
public
health
when
they're
thinking
about
making
a
profit.
So
that
is
a
very
good
question.
Thank
you.
A
G
D
E
I
actually
couldn't
tell
you
quickly.
I
have
a
rough
idea
and
I
know
exactly
what
it
is
in
scotland,
but
it's
that
level
of
complexity,
and
I
think
that
it
does
cause
confusion,
particularly
actually
within
the
uk,
and
so
in
terms
of
the
balance,
the
question
you
asked
about
sporting
events
and
then
potentially
ongoing
restrictions
in
localities
where
we
see
spikes
which
I'm
sadly,
I
think
will
continue.
E
It's
this
tension
and
I'm
sure
we're
going
to
come
on
to
this
in
the
committee.
It's
this
balance
that
we
have
to
strike
in
the
coming
months
between
living
with
the
virus,
because
it's
going
to
be
with
us
indefinitely,
even
with
better
treatments
in
a
vaccine
and
not
crippling
the
economy
further.
And
I'm
no
expert
on
a
sport
in
scotland.
E
But
my
understanding
is
it's
a
very
important
part
of
our
economy
of
people's
lives
and,
and
I
do
think
that
there
are
ways
to
get
of
those
events
with
very
limited
numbers
of
spectators
running
again,
particularly
when
it's
largely
an
outdoor
event
and
as
safely
as
possible.
But
that
is
going
to
require,
as
you
know,
very
clear
guidance
and
also
clear
support
for
those
responsible
for
the
venues
and
the
premises.
E
And
so
I
am
not
opposed
to
opening
up
these
sectors
of
the
economy
if
it
can
be
done
in
a
controlled
and
measured
way.
And
but
I
do
think
that
the
biggest
risks
we
face.
As
and
as
already
saying
are
the
socialization
indoors
in
hospitality
and
where
you
know
there
may
be
breaches
in
terms
of
what
people
are
supposed
to
do,
and
also
unnecessary
indoor,
working
etc
in
venues
which
have
poor
ventilation.
E
E
We
should
try
and
get
these
things
restarted
again,
and
it
would
be
the
same
even
finally,
with
some
things
like
say
for
concerts,
where
there's
been
a
very
interesting
trial,
as
you
probably
saw
in
germany
of
trying
to
see
how
you
would
run
the
live
concert
with
limited
numbers
and
face
coverings
to
allow
you
know
the
arts
to
some
of
the
arts
to
get
up
and
running
again.
So
it's
this
coexistence.
This
balance,
we
have.
C
I'm
really
concerned
that
we've
gone
from
almost
elimination
due
to
restrictions
affecting
more
than
a
million
people
in
a
large
chunk
of
our
country,
and
in
particular
I
want
to
focus
on
the
contributory
factors
of
the
quarantine
measures
and
the
spot
checks,
but
also
the
test
and
protect,
and
whether
you
have
confidence
in
both
of
those
measure,
because
we
know
that
there
are
some
reports
about
compliance
and
about
missing
people
as
well
in
terms
of
the
quarantine
checks.
So
I'd
just
be
interested
in
your
view
on
that.
E
Okay,
so
this
is
the
crux
of
the
issue.
Now
is:
how
did
we
get
to
where
we
are
now,
which
is
and
the
elimination
strategy,
zero
covetous
is
often
called
or
maximum
suppression,
which
is
probably
a
better
term,
is
definitely
what
the
scottish
government
has
been
trying
to
pursue.
And
if
you
look
at
the
data
for
june
in
particular
july,
we
were
very
successful
actually
as
a
nation
in
getting
those
numbers
down
to
leicester
part
of
may
as
well.
E
So
I
think
we
did
very
well
reasonably
well
during
the
summer,
but
the
problem
is
the
numbers
are
now
up
again
and
that
was
not
unexpected.
We
all
most
of
us
expected
that
the
main
drivers
for
that
are
briefly,
as
we
know
the
virus,
because
it
wasn't
totally
eliminated
like
the
faroe
islands
or
new
zealand,
and
it
was
always
potentially
going
to
be
spreading
again
when
people
started
moving
around
more
and
that's
exactly
what
has
happened,
and
but
the
other
thing,
of
course,
is
that
we
can't
cut
ourselves
off.
E
So
I
think
travel
has
been
a
problem.
It's
absolutely
clear
that
people
coming
back
into
the
country
and
I
have
brought
the
virus
with
them-
we've
got
specific
examples
of
that
and
quarantine
is
not
being
followed.
So
your
two
issues
test
and
protect
and
quarantine.
If
you
ask
me,
do
I
think
test
and
protect
is
working
from
the
data
that
I've
seen
and
discussions
with
my
colleagues
involved
in
the
system.
E
I
think
it
is
working
very
well
as
much
as
it
can,
but
there
are
problems
sometimes
out
with
their
control
now
the
first
part
of
test
and
protect
is
test.
That's
where
the
problem
is
at
the
moment.
I
don't
think
the
problems
in
the
contact
racing.
I
think
the
teams
are
very
skilled
and
they're
doing
that
to
the
best
they're
building.
E
Of
course,
we'll
have
the
app,
which
I
think
is
going
to
add
on
top
of
that,
and
but
if
we
can
get
rapid
testing,
we
really
are
in
trouble,
and
I
think
the
situation
we've
seen
with
people
not
being
able
to
get
access
to
tests
is
is
worrying
and
the
england
is
in
the
middle
of
that
right
now.
Clearly,
there's
a
problem
with
lab
capacity,
and
so
this
commitment
of
the
scottish
government
to
get
up
to
60
000
tests
a
day.
You
know
what
did
we
do
yesterday
in
19
000?
E
E
We
really
really
really
must
improve
our
our
capacity
and
our
ability
and
also
to
move
with
technology,
so
to
be
doing
group
testing
where
you
put
samples
together,
they're
tested
together
if
there's
no
virus
in
20
samples,
you've
heard
about
that
approach,
the
saliva
and
testing,
which
is
now
going
to
be
available
and
is
much
less
invasive
and
more
tolerable
for
people.
These
are
things
that
we
need
to
be
using
and
then
finally
on
quarantine.
E
Although
I
can't
comment
on
that
in
detail,
I
think
looking
ahead
and
airport
testing
is
going
to
be
something
that
we
will
require,
and
I
know
that
scottish
and
uk
governments
have
been
very
honest
about
the
fact
that
there
are
key
questions.
First
of
all,
related
to
the
dura
the
timing
of
the
second
test
in
particular.
So
do
it?
Do
you
do
it
on
day,
five
or
day
eight,
and
what
proportion
of
cases
does
that
mean
that
you
miss?
So
there
are
genuine
scientific
questions
about
that.
E
I
accept
it,
but
other
countries
are
doing
it,
but
I
think
the
bigger
issue,
why
we
don't
have
airport
testing
yet
is
an
infrastructure
one
and
if
you
have
got
a
system
which
is
not
operating
in
scale
in
the
community,
then
to
add
a
layer,
a
very
complex
new
system.
On
top
of
that,
I
think,
is
a
big
big
challenge,
but
I
will
be
relatively
confident
that
we're
going
to
have
to
embrace
that
in
the
future,
because
you
have
mandatory
airport
testing,
repeat
testing.
J
Thank
you
convener
a
couple
of
questions
from
me,
the
first
one
to
michael
clancy.
If
I
may
get
michael
reading
the
letter
from
lord
galloway
in
his
evidence,
the
committee
about
the
administration
of
justice
troop
and
what
he
said
was
that
ensuring
that
the
administration
of
justice
is
not
going
to
a
halt
due
to
the
backlog
in
cases
demands
inventive
and
enduring
political
solutions.
G
The
challenge
will
be
readily
surmountable,
so
I
think
that
that
points
to
what
what
we've
been
talking
about
in
in
our
submission
to
the
committee
and
in
the
letter
which
the
president
of
the
society
amanda
miller,
sent
to
adam
tompkins
in
his
capacity
as
convener
of
the
justice
committee,
is
that
the
the
agencies
in
the
justice
system,
the
courts,
the
scts
scottish
courts
and
tribunal
service,
the
law
society
and
the
faculty
of
advocates
and
the
scottish
legal
aid
board.
The
police
prisons.
G
G
G
So
we've
got
to
think
about
the
rights
of
the
accused
person
here
and
how
they
can
get
adequate
access
to
a
solicitor
and
advice
on
what
to
do
in
the
situation
in
which
they
find
themselves.
And,
of
course,
the
the
introduction
of
virtual
custody
courts
has
highlighted
the
issues
which
arise
through
earlier
lack
of
consultation.
G
We
published
a
report
which
said
that
there
may
be
some
potential
advantages
in
custody
courts
beyond
the
immediate
need
for
code
19
safety
measures,
but
there
were
significant
practical
problems
arising
from
the
pilot,
which
needs
to
be
which
need
to
be
ironed
out,
and
we
are
really
pleased
that
the
lord
present
has
now
recognized
the
need
to
address
these
by
ceasing
any
scotland
wide
rollout
before
the
glasgow
pilot,
which
has
now
started,
can
be
monitored
and
evaluated.
I
hope
that
answers
your
questions.
J
It's
very
very
full
michael
we're
hearing
most
of
what
you're
saying,
so
we
have
our
own
issues
with
the
technology
as
well
to
conduct
the
meetings.
I
was
just
going
to
just
follow
up
briefly
with
you
and
ask
as
the
possibilities
that
the
online
virtual
solution
offers
us
does
that
now
overcome
and
become
the
favorite
rather
than
having
cinema
or
hotel
settings
to
administer
court
proceedings.
Do
we
not
need
that
even
think
about
that
anymore
as
the
online
solution,
probably
the
direction
of
travel
that
we'll
take.
G
In
others,
you
may
not
have
heard
my
last
comment,
which
was
that
there
is
a
pilot
in
glasgow
sheriff
court
on
a
virtual
custody
court
and
were
looking
for
the
evaluation
of
that
before
rolling
it
out
before
the
courts
would
roll
it
out.
And
but
I
don't
think
we
can
just
immediately
leap
to
a
virtual
solution,
because
there
are
there's
a
lot
of
things
which
have
to
be
put
in
place
for
that
to
work
across
the
board.
G
And
that
means
that
we
will
still
need
the
use
of
of
cinemas
or
large
venues,
which
was
a
solution
which
we
suggested
to
lady
dorian's
jury
trials,
working
group
and
that
that
that
still
has
to
go
on.
Because
our
court
system
still
has
to
function
in
a
way
which
is
safe
for
everyone,
for
jurors,
for
witnesses,
for
the
court
staff
and
for
the
judges
and
for
the
lawyers
who
are
involved
and
that's
a
key
feature.
G
J
Okay,
thank
you
very
much
for
that,
michael.
I
wonder
convener
if
I
could
ask
my
second
question
this
time
to
linda
bald,
linda,
you
must
be
aware
of
the
the
argument
in
the
debate
surrounding
vitamin
d
and
one
of
our
colleagues
in
her
submission
to
the
committee
today.
Helga
brain
was
telling
us
that
in
finland
they
have
two
to
three
times
higher
vitamin
d
blood
levels
than
we
do
in
scotland
in
the
uk,
and
they
have
no
excess
over
deaths.
Now
he
makes
the
causal
link
between
the
two.
J
E
So
I
think
that
attributing
finland's
differences
to
just
vitamin
d
that
I
wouldn't
say
that
that
causal
link
is
clear,
there's
lots
of
other,
very
good
things
that
finland
has
done
in
its
public
health
response
and
the
nordic
countries
generally,
despite
what's
been
happening
in
sweden,
you
know
had
lower
numbers
overall
and
so,
but
there
may
be
something
in
that.
I
think
the
science
on
this
is
still
emerging
and
we
don't
fully
understand
how
yet
how
the
virus
we
know
how
the
virus
enters
the
body.
E
But
we
don't
fully
understand
all
the
biological
mechanisms
involved
in
how
it
affects
our
health
and
both
in
the
immediate
term,
with
the
acute
illness
and
then
obviously
in
recovery,
which
is
appearing
to
be
increasingly
a
big
problem
that
we're
going
to
have
to
face
the
so-called
long
covet.
And
but
there
is
some
evidence
that
vitamin
d
may
be
helpful
and
I'm
not.
This
is
not
my
direct
area
of
expertise.
E
Just
to
emphasize
one
big
study
that
was
published
recently
shows
that
some
of
the
mechanisms
may
be
disrupted
by
vitamin
d
levels
and
therefore
there
may
be
some
protection
where
people
have
adequate
vitamin
d
levels.
We
also
know
more
generally,
that
vitamin
d
is
important,
particularly
for
some
groups
and
and
having
adequate
access
to
that
vitamin.
Just
in
terms
of
the
immune
response
is
important
in
general,
so
I
think
that
it's
not
it's
not
an
invasive
thing,
it's
something
you
can
provide
to
the
population
safely
at
recommended
doses,
particularly
for
older
people.
E
I
did
read
helen's
evidence,
and
I
think
that
is
something
even
if
there
are
unknown
scientific
questions
about
it.
If
we
added
it
to
the
other
measures
we're
pursuing,
I
can't
see
really
that
it
would
do
any
harm.
It's
not
the
type
of
thing
that
would
be
contraindicated
for
particular
groups.
So
I
think
it's
a
useful
point
that
that
helen
has
a
gp
has
raised.
I
think
it
would
be
good
for
the
committee
to
perhaps
ask
that
this
be
explored
further,
particularly
the
time
when
we're
expanding
our
flu
vaccination
program.
J
E
Yes,
I
wouldn't
be
opposed
to
that
at
all,
and
I
think
that
as
we
move
forward,
particularly
when
we
have
higher
rates
of
the
virus
in
the
community
than
we
would
wish,
we
need
to
increasingly
look
at
the
groups
that
are
most
vulnerable.
How
can
we
maximize
the
protection
to
those
groups
and
so
not
returning
to
shielding
but
other
measures
that
we
could
use
and
whether
they're
interventions
of
that
type
or
others?
F
Thank
you
can
be
now.
I
think
my
first
question
I'll
direct
to
professor
bald
and
but
others
and
and
respond
if
they
feel
they
have
something
to
offer.
Professor
baldwin
casey
is
rising
again
in
scotland.
Do
we
have
enough
information
and
data
to
making
decisions
about
what
restrictions
and
emergency
powers
are
still
required?
E
Thank
you
very
much
monica
for
that
question.
I
was
hoping
that
I
could
raise
with
the
committee
some
of
the
some
of
the
ways
that
we
could
improve
the
transparency
and
availability
of
some
of
the
data.
The
first
thing
I
would
say
is
that
the
dashboard
that
public
health,
scotland
produces
is
excellent,
and
I
know
how
hard
all
the
analytical
teams
have
been
working
at
scale
and-
and
you
know
we
have
some
fantastic
researchers
and
experts
working
on
that,
not
just
in
public
health
but
the
boards
etc.
E
So
they
are
up
to
be
commended
for
the
efforts
it's
it's
improved,
hugely
it's
very
valuable
for
researchers
and
others.
However,
there
are
gaps
so
the
first
one
that
you
point
to
is.
I
think
that
reporting
the
data
by
local
authority
in
the
same
way
as
by
nhs
board
is
needed.
You
can
actually
drill
down
into
that
and
if
you
go
through
all
the
tables,
it
is
possible
to
figure
it
out,
but
I
think
just
providing
it
up
front
would
be
very
useful
to
particularly
local
authority
partners.
E
So,
let's
do
that,
I
don't
think
it's
a
difficult
thing
to
do,
and
the
second
thing
is
that
I
would
like
to
see-
and
this
is
probably
a
longer
term-
ask
age,
specific
and
sex,
specific
data
more
transparently
provided
for
both
the
cases
and
hospitalizations
and,
as
you
know,
monica
there
is
currently
an
issue
around
how
we
define
people
in
hospital
which
I
understand
will
be
resolved,
icu
admissions,
etc.
So
agent
sex,
specific
data
more
readily
available.
E
Though
again
you
can
get
it
if
you,
if
you
look
for
it,
because
it's
clear
all
the
way
through
this
pandemic,
that
there
there's
differences
by
sex
or
differences
by
age
and
they're,
also,
as
we
saw
in
public
health
scholars,
useful
report,
differences
by
ethnic
minority
communities
etc.
So
more
of
that
more
readily
available
would
be
very
useful
and
that
would
be
for
tests
cases,
hospitalizations
and
deaths.
E
But
I
would
still
like
to
have
probably
available
data
on
the
time
it
takes
for
people
to
be
contacted
and
then
to
know
not
so
not
just
a
proportion
of
contacts
that
are
reached
and
then
to
know
what
happens
with
those
contacts,
obviously
they're
all
advised
to
self-isolate,
but
are
people
following
that
guidance,
even
if
it's
a
sample
that
we
see
data
from
what
is
the
adherence,
the
understanding
and
the
compliance?
Is
it
working?
E
In
other
words,
and
then
this
the
final
thing
on
test
and
protect
is
in
the
testing
symptom
system,
we're
testing
symptomatic
and
asymptomatic
people,
most
people
get
tested
or
symptomatic.
That's
the
public,
because
they're
coming
forward
for
tests,
we
have
a
lot
of
other
people
who
are
now
being
more
routinely
tested
care,
home
workers,
nhs
staff
etc,
who
are
just
being
routinely
tested.
So
they're
not
symptomatic.
E
So
that's
the
asymptomatic
group
I'd
really
like
to
see
a
clear
breakdown
of
those
two
groups
because
they're
quite
different
populations,
and
it
will
give
us
a
sense
on
the
cis
symptoms
site,
particularly
how
many
people
are
experiencing
symptoms,
etc.
Why
they're
coming
forward
for
tests-
and
I
think
those
are
the
main
things
I
wanted
to
do-
there
may
be
a
couple
of
other
points.
F
E
Sure
so
the
number
of
countries
that
do
very
well
on
the
data
front,
I
need
to
troll
into
this
in
a
bit
more
detail,
but
I
know
that
in
germany
there's
very
good
quality
data,
that's
available
for
some
of
those
measures
as
well
and
certainly
from
new
zealand
when
earlier
in
the
pandemic,
when
they
put
together
their
equivalent
the
public
health
dashboard.
There
was
more
information
there
and
the
canadians
do
it
by
province
and
federally
again
more
data
there.
E
So
there
probably
are
a
number
of
examples
where
researchers
are
able
to
access
this
and,
as
I
say,
much
of
that,
with
the
exception
of
some
of
the
things
I've
said
does
exist.
It's
just,
I
think,
and
if
it
can
be
reported
more
openly,
so
that
people
have
to
troll
through
huge
excel
tables,
which
is
basically
what
you
often
have
to
do
at
the
moment.
F
F
Can
I
ask
our
witnesses:
have
they
made
any
assessment
of
the
the
impact
that
these
provisions
have
had
on
adults
within
capacity
for
the
duration
of
the
emergency
legislation?
So
far,
do
they
believe
that
we
have
enough
information
and
is
there
a
need
for
further
independent
assessment
or
information
gathering
about
how
many
people
have
been
affected
potentially
by
moves
to
reduce
delayed
discharge,
for
example,
put
that
to
michael
a
first
place,
and
then
sarah.
G
G
Notes
that
the
scottish
government
has
examined
it
says
very
carefully
the
considerations
in
relation
to
human
rights
and
has
detected
these
should
expire
early.
So
therefore,
we
we
were
quite
content
with
that
decision.
I
hope
that
covers
the
point
that
you'll,
no
doubt,
let
me
know
miss
lennon.
If
I
have
not
covered
the
point.
F
F
G
F
F
Hi,
thank
you
so
just
coming
back
to
the
the
data
point
and
that
professor
bald
had
had
spoken
about,
we
think
it's
key
to
be
able
to
collect
data
in
relation
to
a
wide
variety
of
issues.
One
topic
which
we've
not
spoken
about
thus
far
and
which
I
can
go
into
a
bit
more
detail
about,
is
the
data
in
relation
to
those
in
pre-trial
detention
now
do
bear
with
me.
F
F
So,
as
a
result,
we
we're
supportive
we're
supportive
of
these
being
expired
and
the
commission
itself
conducted
research
into
the
impact
of
cover
19
on
social
care
in
scotland.
Now
this
this
full
report
will
be
available
at
the
beginning
of
october,
and
during
that
the
process
of
gathering
the
information.
We
spoke
to
a
wide
range
of
different
actors
and
organizations
and
in
relation
to
social
care.
F
Now.
Turning
to
the
evidence
about
the
use
of
the
powers,
paragraph
eleven
one
in
relation
to
adults
with
capacity
and
removing
the
the
need
to
seek
their
views
and
their
family's
views
hasn't
come
into
force,
but
we
did
find
that
one
interviewee
was
concerned
about
the
test
for
triggering
the
provision
and
they
felt
it
was
very
unclear
as
to
how
decisions
would
be
made.
F
F
Now
we
don't
have
any
data
about
whether
people
professionals
were
moving
moving
people
from,
for
example,
hospital
settings
to
residential
settings
without
their
consent.
But
we
think
this
is
a
vital
part
of
of
scrutiny
of
measures
that
we
are
able
to
see
data
and
find
out.
What's
happened
in
individual
cases
and
whether
their
rights
and
have
been
ignored.
F
F
A
K
E
G
Yes,
yes,
thank
you
very
much
need
mr
corey.
For
that
question
and
again
we've
we've
covered
some
of
that
earlier
in
the
discussion
this
morning.
I
believe
that
it
is
a
crucial
to
have
a
legal
structure
following
the
coronavirus
acts,
and
these
are
important
issues
about
our
liberties,
which
are
concern
which
are
being
dealt
with
under
these
pieces
of
legislation.
G
G
First
of
all,
to
to
point
out
to
them
that
the
guidance
says
that
a
mask
should
be
worn
in
this
situation
or
whatever
it
may
be,
and
then
to
ramp
it
up.
If
there
is
resistance
to
accepting
the
advice
to
reflecting
what
the
law
says
about
these
sorts
of
things,
and
I
think
that
it's
the
tone
of
guidance
which
is
used
as
a
precursor
to.
K
Thank
you,
and
following
on
from
that,
my
first
question
to
both
of
you
again
running
in
parallel
to
this.
Of
course,
could
you
both
agree
that
there
is
a
need
for
really
effective
communications
to
ensure
the
successful
implementation
of
those
regulations
and
targeting
the
sectors
of
the
population
and
geographical
areas
of
this
country,
where
the
issues
are
particularly
bad,
and
I
also
draw
on
the
comment
by
professor
bald.
Just
now
I
mean
referred
to
the
long
covid
this
morning,
which
obviously
gives
me
slight
calls
to
concern.
E
Certainly
so,
if
I
start,
I
think
that
is
absolutely
the
case,
and
actually
I
think
donor
robertson
made
this
point
earlier
as
well
that
we're
in
a
difficult
period
now
and
therefore
and
clear
communication
is
even
more
important
than
it
was
earlier.
I
think
in
the
pandemic,
given
the
complexities
of
the
guidance
and
the
regulations,
and
so,
as
I
was
saying
earlier,
I
think
that
the
I
very
much
welcome
the
ongoing
daily
briefings.
E
They're
absent
you
know,
at
uk
level
we
still
have
them
they're
a
helpful
tool,
but
unfortunately
there
are
lots
of
people
who
are
not
going
to
be
tuning
in
to
those
and
maybe
relying
on
other
ways
to
obtain
information.
So
I
think
it's
important
that
we
have
and
other
agencies
who
are
adequately
resourced,
be
able
to
convey
that
public
health
advice
and
the
detail
of
the
regulations
to
their
populations,
and
you
raise
a
good
point.
E
Actually,
it
may
be
that
when
we
have
local
restrictions
imposed
on
an
area,
we
need
additional
resource
and
support
for
agencies
in
that
area,
even
to
do
door-to-door
to
purchase
some
local
radio
station
time,
because
local
radio
is
a
really
important
way
to
communicate,
particularly
with
some
communities,
listen
to
particular
stations,
including
in
their
own
language.
For
example.
G
Are
we
to
stay
alert
or
stay
at
home?
For
example,
the
famous
example
from
early
may,
where
people
just
did
not
know
what
jurisdictions
were
being
affected
and
it
creates
then
a
need
for
the
the
jurisdictions
that
do
not
have
such
provisions
to
stay
alert
to
to
then
come
and
say
that
doesn't
apply
here
and,
of
course,
as
people
travel
across
the
country,
they
may
encounter
different
regimes
from
the
ones
which
are
local
to
them,
and
that
too,
has
to
be
communicated
very
clearly.
K
E
So
I
was
just
speaking
in
general
terms
from
a
non-expert
position,
as
in
I'm
not
involved
in
any
of
the
procurement
or
the
setup
of
any
of
these
services,
and
I
don't
underestimate
the
scale
of
the
challenge,
but
I
think
what
I
was
trying
to
say
is
that
I
know
the
airports
themselves
would
be
willing
and
able
to
set
some
of
this
up,
and
but
you
do
need
government
support
and
government
involvement
to
do
this
and
it
doesn't.
It
shouldn't
be
separate
from
our
national
testing
system.
It
needs
to
be
integrated.
E
I
wouldn't
be
surprised
if
just
the
the
effort
that
would
be
required
to
get
that
running
at
all
of
scotland's
airports
may
be
just
an
additional
demand
that
at
the
moment,
is
not
a
priority
because
we're
trying
to
get
so
many
other
parts
of
the
testing
system
operating
the
skill.
That
was
the
general
point
I
made.
I'm
sure
others
would
be
more
expert
just
to
point
to
exactly
what
the
steps
would
be.
That
would
be
required
to
put
that
in
place
and
what
implications
that
would
have
for
other
parts
of
our
testing
system.
H
Thank
you,
convener.
It
was
basically
just
to
comment
on
the
issue
of
consistency
of
message,
and
I
think
this
is
a
very
vital
point
going
forward,
and
you
know,
workers
on
the
ground
are
consistently
receiving
different
messages
from
employers
in
terms
of
what
what
the
standards
are
within
within
their
within
their
workplaces,
which
are
often
out
of
step
with
the
wider
public
health
message.
H
And
if
we
continue
to
put
polls
into
our
public
health
message
in
around
three
meter
social
distance
and
then
it's
not
necessary
in
schools.
It's
not
necessary.
You
know
it's
okay
to
do
one
meter
in
hospitality
on
buses
and
different
types
of
workplaces.
I
think
what
that
does
is
confuse
the
message
for
for
a
lot
of
people
and
if
you
know,
people
are
going
into
work
and
they
aren't
having
to
socially
distance
their
the
you
know.
H
So-
and
I
think
people
are
very
conscious
of
this
idea-
that
they
are
that
they
don't
they're,
not
just
economic
entities,
that
they
have
well-being
issues.
They
have
a
desire
to
see
their
family
that
that
kind
of
thing-
and
I
think
what
we
really
need
to
do
is-
is
to
keep
that
consistency
of
message
but
to
keep
that
balance
as
well
between
home
life
and
economic
life.
H
And
I
think
that's
quite
that's
quite
a
challenge
because
they,
I
think
the
you
know
the
desire
will
be
to
open
up
the
economy
as
much
as
possible,
but
to
still
control
the
virus,
and
that
sends
you
in
a
very
specific
direction.
So
it
is
important,
I
think,
to
to
try
to
keep
the
message
as
consistent
as
possible
throughout
all
areas.
L
Please
thank
you,
computer
and
good
morning
to
our
witnesses
and
it's
been
a
very
interesting
discussion
and
I
mean
taking
into
account
the
the
wide-ranging
debate
we've
had
already
about
the
role
of
emergency
powers
in
a
pandemic,
the
need
for
buy-in
from
citizens,
and
then
you
know
looking
ahead
to
the
winter
months
and
votes
on
earth
that
may
bring.
I
I
guess
buy
and
also
is
linked
to
trust
that
the
government
is
doing
all
that
it
can
do
to
control
the
the
pandemic.
L
L
I
had
read
an
interesting
article
in
the
financial
times
I
think
of
last
week
and
they
were
citing
an
epidemiologist
at
the
lac
julian
cato,
and
he
was
suggesting
that
there
should
be
mass
testing
of
the
population,
so
universal
testing
and
together
with
contract
tracing
of
course,
and
he
felt
that
was
the
best
way
to
control
the
pandemic,
and
he
he
specifically
suggested
that
the
there'd
be
adoption
of
what
he
called
the
rt
lamp
technology.
And
this,
apparently,
is
reverse
transcriptase
loop
amplification.
L
I
don't
know
if
my
committee
can
see
the
conveners
looking
puzzled,
I'm
you
know
indeed
puzzle
too.
I
hope
professor
bald
isn't,
but
that
he
suggested
that
that
actually
would
be
an
easy
way
to
to
for
people
to
test.
It
doesn't
involve
saliva
based.
It
doesn't
involve
nasal
swabs
that
it
would
be
cheap,
perhaps
about
one
pound
per
test
or
less
that
it
would
be
therefore
easy
to
roll
out
on
a
wide
population
basis
and,
of
course
it
would
not
replace
if
there
was
a
positive
test.
L
They
need
them
to
go
on
and
have
a
high-tech
test
to
check
for
false
positives.
He
felt
that
the
sensitivity
of
the
test
was
sufficient
to
deal
with
pandemic
control
issues,
and
I
just
wonder
if
professor
bald
is
aware
that
this
is
something
that
is
being
looked
at.
You
know
here
and
and
elsewhere,
and
to
what
extent
it
is
seen
as
a
realistic
option.
Thank
you.
E
Thank
you
very
much
bill,
so
I'm
not
a
interested
in
testing
is
not
testing.
Techniques
are
not
my
core
area
of
expertise.
I
haven't
seen
that
paper
I'll
just
comment
in
general
terms:
the
technologies
that
advancing
all
the
time,
I
am
more
familiar
in
my
own
work
with
how
you
use
saliva
testing
for
other
purposes
and
it's
a
far
less
invasive,
much
easier
way
to
ask
people
to
be
tested
and,
as
you
know,
in
the
u.s
and
other
countries,
they're
already
actively
using
that
approach
more
than
we
are
at
the
moment.
E
E
L
Thank
you
for
that,
and
it
just
seemed
that
if
it,
if
it
worked,
then
and
the
the
writer
suggested
it
be,
it
could
be
carried
out
on
a
weekly
basis.
It
would
seem
to
be
a
game
changer
in
dealing
with
the
pandemic,
to
avoid
you
know,
mass
blanket
lockdowns
which
fortunately
were
avoiding
compared
to
four
months
ago
at
the
moment,
but
we
do
have
the
winter
to
deal
with.
So
certainly
it
will
be
initial
basic
thing
to
pursue.
Thank
you,
professor
bald.
G
I
think
it's
fair
to
say
that
we
support
entirely
the
extension
of
this
legislation
and
the
the
consequences
of
not
extending
it.
It
could
be
a
well
it.
It's
just
unthinkable
that
it
would
not
be
extended
at
the
present
time
and
we
we
need
to
do
it
to
allow
for
the
current
arrangements
to
continue.
Whilst
we
cope
with
the
crisis
and
until
the
time
the
crisis
is
in
very
much
more
manageable
and
less
and
a
potential
for
it
to
to
re-emerge,
then
I
think
we
should
continue
with
the
law.
L
B
Thank
you
very
much
convina.
I
wanted
to
take
us
to
the
children
and
young
people's
commissioner's
a
response
to
the
committee
and
in
particular
where
they
say
we
remain
extremely
concerned.
It's
consensus
previously
raised
in
particular
about
the
detention
of
young
people,
and
they
say
the
proportion
of
children
and
young
people
detained
in
roman
has
actually
increased,
and
I
just
wonder
what
response
members
of
the
panel-
probably
sarah,
both
and
michael
clancy
in
particular,
might
have
to
say
in
response
to
the
children
and
young
people's
commissioner's
input
to
deliberations.
F
A
A
Well,
can
I
take
this
opportunity
to
thank
all
of
our
four
witnesses-
professor
bald
ms
booth,
mr
clancy
and
ms
martin
for
attending
the
meeting
this
morning.
That
concludes
our
business.
For
today,
at
our
meeting
next
wednesday,
we
will
take
evidence
from
the
scottish
government
on
various
ssis,
including
the
two
that
were
on
our
agenda
today
and
upon
which
we
heard
evidence
relating
to
the
extension
and
expiria
provisions
in
the
coronavirus.
Scotland.
So
can
I
thank
again
our
our
panel
and
colleagues
and
I
now
close
the
meeting.
Thank
you.