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From YouTube: COVID-19 Committee - 29 April 2020
Description
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A
Good
afternoon
and
welcome
to
the
second
meeting
of
the
Corbett
19
committee,
we
are
joined
for
our
first
agenda
item
in
this
afternoon
by
John
Swinney,
who
is
the
Deputy
First,
Minister
and
cabinet,
actually
for
Education
and
Skills,
and
here
beginning
evidence
on
the
Scottish
Government's
framework
for
decision
making,
which
was
published
last
week.
I
am
aware
that
the
Deputy
First
Minister
has
another
engagement
at
4:00
p.m.
double,
ensure
that
the
session
is
wrapped
up
before
they
can
I
welcome
mr.
Sweeney
to
the
meeting
I
kind
of
item
to
make
a
short
opening
statement.
B
You
very
much
you
know.
First
of
all,
I
would
like
to
place
on
record
my
thanks
to
the
people
of
Scotland
for
following
the
public
health
advice
to
stay
at
home.
The
impact
of
the
virus
in
Scotland
has
been
profound
and
everyone
has
been
affected,
but
we
know
the
current
lot.
Donor
means
vital.
It
is
only
because
of
the
action
of
the
people
of
Scotland
that
were
now
seeing
some
progress
against
the
violence.
B
Person
was
explained
last
week
that
we
want
to
be
open
and
transparent
about
the
options
for
Scotland,
which
is
why
we
published
covered
19
a
framework
for
decision-making.
I
welcome
the
opportunity
to
discuss
this
further
with
the
committee
today.
It
is
only
when
we
are
sure
that
the
violence
is
under
control
that
we
can
start
to
ease
restrictions.
Our
steps
when
we
take
them
will
need
to
be
careful,
gradual,
incremental
and
probably
quite
small.
B
To
start
with
this,
new
normal
will
be
different
from
the
lives
we've
had
before
physical
distancing
and
limiting
out
of
contact
with
others
may
well
be
a
fact
of
life
for
some
time
to
come,
but
we
have
the
opportunity
to
work
together
to
the
same
two
kind
of
Scotland.
We
want
to
emerge
from
this
crisis.
B
Those
these
people
say
it
so
the
objectives
and
the
principles
that
will
gain
us
the
different
factors
that
we
all
need
to
take
into
account.
The
framework
in
which
we
will
take
decisions
and
the
preparations
we
need
to
make
no
dental
tonight
is
our
consideration
of
the
harms
caused
by
the
virus,
to
health,
the
society
and
to
the
economy
and
the
DS
in
the
weeks
ahead.
B
Evidence
data
and
modelling
will
allow
us
to
take
formal
decisions
and,
as
the
phosphorus
that
has
sent
me,
will
shear
I'm
thinking
on
an
on
an
iterative
business
as
the
people
outlines
will
fall
with
seven
principles
for
decision-making.
The
principals
will
receive
lawful
evidence,
beasts
be
an
ethical,
clear,
realistic
and
collective.
We
will
learn
from
the
international
community,
in
particular,
most
countries
further
ahead
in
the
pandemic.
Coughs
in
Scotland,
however,
this
too
early
to
tell
from
international
comparisons,
but
the
safest
and
most
effective
approach
might
be.
B
Most
countries
are
just
at
the
starting
point
of
lifting
interventions
and
they'll
bear
time
lag
between
lifting
and
seeing
the
impact.
In
the
coming
days,
we
will
publish
an
update
to
the
framework.
The
intention
is
that
this
will
include
an
assessment
of
the
evidence
on
the
spread
of
the
virus,
a
summary
of
the
restrictions
currently
in
place.
Some
of
the
options
to
be
considered
are
in
the
variation
of
distancing
measures
and
will
consider
the
harms
caused
by
the
virus.
B
We
will
consider
the
options
set
there
in
that
people
as
part
of
our
review
of
the
restrictions
country
in
place,
which
must
be
completed
no
later
than
the
7th
of
me.
We
recognize
a
successful
transition
out
of
the
current
lockdown
arrangements
will
require
unprecedented
levels
of
support
and
compliance
from
the
whole
population,
which
means
openness,
transparency
and
a
clear
articulation
of
why
specific
decisions
being
taken
are
essential.
We
will
also
say
that
how
we
intend
to
facility
the
next
phase
of
dialogue
with
the
public
on
the
covert
decision
making
process
in
due
course
and
I.
B
A
Thank
you.
Miss
Australia
is
a
very
helpful
opening
statement
and
where
members
were
interested
in
pursuing
issues
around
the
science
and
the
evidence
base
for
decisions
that
will
be
taken
issues
very
prominent
engagement.
There
are
some
of
the
practical
implications
of
these
in
the
the
current
long
time
and
can
I
remind
members,
and
indeed
yourself,
just
to
be
aware
because
of
the
broadcasting
arrangements.
If
we
just
take
a
breath
before
speaking,
that
allows
broadcasting
to
catch
up.
A
The
containment
strategy
that's
been
pursued
by
the
Scottish
Government
has
so
far
been
successful
in
suppressing
a
number
of
cases,
but,
as
the
document
makes
clear,
long
time
cannot
continue
forever
and
if
lockdown
is
is
eased,
there
is
a
risk
of
a
second
wave
of
transmission
or
indeed
of
Scone
waves.
So
is
it
the
scottish
government's
view
that
without
a
vaccine,
we
could
still
see
a
very
large
percentage
of
the
population
affected
by
coronavirus
and
therefore,
what
we're
trying
to
do
is
and
we
spread
the.
A
B
Hope
curvy
note
would
be
to
restrict
the
spread
of
current
violence
to
the
lowest
level
possible
within
our
society,
so
I
at
first
I
understand
and
respect
the
information
that
Professor
Ferguson
said
so
and
there's
a
huge
amount
of
a
very
valuable
material
that
he
generally
is
I.
Don't
think
we're
necessarily
obliged
to
accept
that
the
type
of
scenario
he
paints
is
an
inevitable
scenario
if
there
is
and
within
the
public,
a
very
sustained
approach
towards
some
of
the
very
basic
elements
of
behaviour
which
we
have
encouraged
throughout
this
pandemic
around
hand-washing
around.
B
What
has
now
become
known
as
coughing
etiquette
and
around
the
social
distance,
application
of
social
distancing
and
some
of
the
other
elements
of
the
measures
that
we
have
put
in
place.
Then
we
would
be
working
to
try
to
minimize
the
effect
of
the
spread
of
the
virus,
but
I
think
we
have
to
accept
that
what
we
have
learned
through
the
lockdown
is
that
the
type
of
very
restrictive
our
insurance
that
we've
had
in
place
have
been
effective
in
slowing
up
the
spread
of
the
virus.
B
But
there
may
be
variations
not
of
Perpetual
lotto,
because
I
accept
your
premise:
convenor,
that
we
cannot
be
a
lockdown
forever
and
that
would
not
be
desirable
or
palatable.
There
may
be
changes
to
the
way
we
live
our
lives
and
how
we
act
and
how
we
dive
on
how
we
conduct
ourselves
that
have
to
change
to
try
to
minimize
the
spread
of
coronavirus,
and
that
will
be
very
much
at
the
heart
of
the
next
phase
of
the
agenda
that
the
government
takes
forward.
A
Thank
you
for
that
response.
Other
members
don't
want
to
come
in
and
have
a
bit
more
about
the
science
behind
some
of
the
assumptions
in
the
paper,
but
I
wonder
if
I
can
move
on
and
ask
a
different
question.
This
is
about
some
of
the
impact
of
lockdown,
particularly
on
the
business
community,
which
I
think
you
would
recognize
has
responded
very
well
in
the
main
to
their
to
their
ranges
that
have
been
put
in
place
and
many
businesses
have
taken
this
decision
to
close
voluntarily
they're
not
being
legally
obliged
to
do
so.
A
The
Coolsville
entirely
the
Fernwood
their
staff,
but,
of
course
they
are
keen
to
return
to
work
and,
from
an
economic
point
of
view,
I
think
we'd
all
want
to
see
people
back
at
work
as
soon
as
that's
safe
to
do
so.
So
what
we've
seen
just
in
the
last
couple
of
days,
I'm
sure
you've
seen,
is
some
large
construction
companies
talking
about
a
return
to
work
in
me,
of
course,
exercise
in
social
distancing.
Can
I
ask
you:
was
the
Scottish
Government's
view
on
that
I
wonder
advice?
Would
you
give
to
companies
like
that
who?
A
B
The
people
that
we've
constructed
convener
tries
to
I
think
properly
and
comprehensively
populate
the
harm,
that's
caused
by
culvert,
and
it
said
so
essentially
four
hands
of
covered.
There
is
the
direct
health
harm
from
culvert,
which
has
been
the
absolute
primary
requirement
for
the
lockdown
because
of
the
dangers
that
covered
health
on
post
to
the
population
and
I
think
we
are
making
significant
progress
as
a
consequence
of
the
participation
of
members
of
the
public
and
the
business
community
in
the
lock
them
intact
or
not
direct
covered
health
on.
B
There
is
also
the
Noland
comfort
health
on
which
is
affecting
the
population,
and
the
level
of
referrals
by
general
practitioners
for
cancer
treatment
is
fallen
by
over
seventy
percent
in
Scotland
there.
None
of
us
believe
that
cancer
has
reduced
a
lot
extent
in
our
society.
So
quite
clearly,
members
of
the
public
are
holding
back
and
coming
forward
with
them
and
with
their
wider
health
issues
and
that's
undesirable.
B
B
The
loss
of
formal
education
services
is
a
very
significant
factor
and
then,
as
you,
create
the
C
convener
in
the
business
community,
that
has
been
a
very
significant
economic
impact
as
a
consequence
that
what
the
people
tries
to
do
is
to
open
up
a
discussion
about
the
fact
that
we
need
to
consider
our
next
steps
and
system
with
all
of
those
and
those
different
factors
as
they
affect
our
society,
because
we
can
see
in
each
one
on
direct
covert
health
arm,
non-covered
health
and
social
and
economic
issues.
That
is
damage
to
Scottish
society.
B
B
I
hope
we
get
to
a
point
sooner
rather
than
later,
that
we
can't
change
that
disposition,
but
we'll
not
in
that
situation
just
now,
but
have
any
fundamental
reason
load,
which
is
narrated
in
the
paper
that
we
have
to
make
sure
that
the
reproduction
number
of
the
coronavirus
is
kept
as
low
as
possible
and
just
know.
We
don't
believe
it
is
low
enough
to
enable
us
to
resume
some
of
the
wider
activity
that
I
quite
readily
acknowledge.
Individuals
and
companies
wish
to
take
forward.
B
A
C
C
B
There
is
always
on
with
all
questions
and
I'm,
certainly
teased
of
this
in
my
core
education
portfolio,
there's
always
a
range
of
opinions
about
how
best
to
proceed
and
the
any
observer
of
the
debate
that
is
currently
underway.
I,
don't
coronavirus
will
recognize
that
within
the
scientific
community,
that
is
quite
a
diversity
of
opinion
about
different
approaches
to
the
fatigue.
The
government
listens
carefully
to
a
wide
range
of
scientific
opinion.
B
Some
of
it
can
be
the
modeling
for
the
impact
of
coronavirus
as
a
direct
health
harm
to
the
population.
Some
of
it
can
be
the
modeling
of
economic
impact
in
the
way
that
the
convener
was
raising
with
me
a
second
ago
and
which
the
chief
economist
set
out
at
one
of
the
phosphors,
those
briefings
they
just
the
other
Delia.
B
We
also
benefit
from
the
improved
from
the
chief
Social
Work
adviser
and
the
chief
social
policy
advisor
within
the
government
in
helping
us
to
form
our
views
along
with
the
chief
scientists,
the
chief
scientific
adviser
into
the
bargain.
All
of
our
information
is
distilled
and
I.
Think
the
best
way
to
talk
about
diversity
of
opinion
is
to
follow
the
the
thinking
behind
the
document
and
others
to
be
as
open
and
as
transparent
as
possible
about
that
information,
so
that
it
is
cheered
widely
it's
understood
by
the
public
and
the
government.
B
Teague's
makes
its
base
judgements
openly
under
that
transplant
fashion.
Based
on
that
evidence,
that
will
not
mean
that
we
can
accept
all
the
scientific
advice,
because
some
of
the
scientific
advice
may
be
contradictory
or
it
won't
be
contradictory.
But
what
we
have
to
do
is
to
make
our
best
judgment
based
on
the
evidence.
We
have
in
front
of
us
the
advice
that
is
presented
and
to
explain
that
in
in
an
open
fashion
to
the
public
to
build
consent
and
support
for
the
position
of
we
take.
C
The
in
your
opening
remarks
about
learning
from
other
countries
and
look
at
the
international
evidence,
neap
caveated,
that
by
saying
that
there
were
all
very
early
stages
of
perhaps
easing
restrictions,
it
does
strike
me
that
that's
am
going
to
be
very
important,
but
also-
and
quite
key.
If
you
look
at
the
situation
in
Germany,
they
are
now
beginning
to
see
some
rise
in
cases
again.
So
is
it
the
case
that
that
the
options
may
have
to
change
as
circumstances
change
and
that
they'll
have
to
be
our
fluidity?
C
B
Over
the
course
of
the
last
few
months,
we
have
managed
to
build
capacity,
reconfigure
our
National
Health
Service,
with
a
speed
and
a
focus
which
has
been
absolutely
laudable
by
all
of
those
individuals,
and
it's
got
a
start
point
for
our
National
Health.
Service
has
not
in
any
shape
or
form
been
overwhelmed
and
has
has
had
ample
capacity
within
its
operations
to
deal
with
the
challenge
of
coronavirus.
But
that's
come
at
a
price.
The
norm
covered
health
conditions
which
have
not
been
attended
to
as
I've
accepted
already.
B
So
looking
at
them,
other
international
examples
and
seen
the
experience
of
other
countries,
I
think
it
can
help
to
inform
the
debate
and
perhaps
provide
some
of
the
rationale
and
the
context
that
the
public
would
require
to
understand
about
why
government
is
perhaps
not
moving
as
fast
as
people
would
like
government
to
move
to
relaxed
the
restrictions
and
the
reason
why
we
can't
move
that
fast
is
because
it
would
be
dangerous
to
the
public
for
us
to
do
so
under
mentally.
And
we
have
to
the
issue.
B
We
have
to
keep
looking
at
is:
where
is
the
reproduction
number
of
coronavirus,
whether
the
number
of
cases
and
if
we
find
them
and
moving
in
the
opposite
direction,
to
the
one
we're
trying
to
secure
of
reducing
the
number
of
pieces
reducing
the
reproduction
number,
then
we
potentially
would
have
to
reapply
some
of
the
restrictions
that
we
might
have
left.
It.
A
C
Yes,
of
course,
I
was
just
saying
finally
just
to
ask
about
the
involvement
and
consent
of
public,
which
you
mentioned
yourself
and
mr.
Russell
yesterday
and
response
to
my
question.
They
talked
about
the
Scottish
government,
putting
some
thought
to
how
the
public
could
be
involved
and
in
the
the
conversation
that
the
framework
is
intending
to
start
and
and
keep
going.
Have
you
any
further
thoughts
and/or?
Is
there
any
further
developments
or
not
how
the
practicalities
of
homes
that
might
happen.
B
At
the
very
last
moment
of
the
publication
of
the
document
and
it's
for
seven
days
or
so,
we
have
seen
that
the
document
either
viewed
or
downloaded
and
about
400,000
of
over
400,000
about
four
hundred
thousand
occasions
and
thus
a
significant
indication
of
the
interest
of
members
of
the
public
and
the
issues
with
which
we
are
grappling
with,
and
we've
obviously
provided
within
the
document,
an
opportunity
for
members
of
the
public
to
send
their
feedback
directly
to
us
now.
This
is
not.
This
is
not
a
routine
government
consultation
document.
B
We
can't
wait
12
weeks
for
members
of
the
public
to
have
the
opportunity
to
feedback.
We
need
to
find
a
more
immediate
way
of
doing
that.
So
we
can
hear
what
the
publica
say,
but
the
reactions
aren't
to
certain
issues
and,
of
course,
that
will
become
ever
more
clear.
The
more
we
punish
the
fring.
What
document
with
further
information
about
the
options
that
we
that
we
will
be
considering
and
the
options
that
we
will
be
modeling
and
it's
really
important.
B
We
get
that
direct
feedback
from
members
of
the
public
that
we're
looking
actively
just
know,
act
on
mechanisms
that
would
enable
that
more
vigorous
public
interaction
with
the
document,
and
we
hope
to
be
able
to
see
some
more
details
about
that
in
the
course
of
the
next
few
Dee's.
Do
that
there's
a
very
direct
channel
for
members
of
the
public
improve
our
thinking
that
we
can
gather
that
on
a
prompt
and
efficient
fashion,
and
so
that
the
government
can
be
really
mostly
aware
of
what
members
of
the
public
are
thinking
about.
B
The
different
options
with
which
we
are
resting.
But
we
are
keen
to
make
sure
this
is
done
in
a
fashion
which
is
different
to
traditional
government
consultation
mechanisms,
which
essentially,
we
publish
the
document
away
a
number
of
weeks
before
we
hear
anything
from
members
of
the
public.
This
is
truly
immediate
for
us
too,
as
an
issue
to
leave
it
that
long.
So
we
want
to
make
sure
we
hear
that
feedback
from
the
public
and
as
swiftly
as
possible.
A
Okay,
thank
you
Jonah,
just
before
I
bring
in
a
Roth
career
who's.
The
next
questioner
I
could
just
follow
up
mr.
Sweeney.
With
that
last
question
from
Jonah
Rosen
about
public
engagement,
it
won't
roll.
Would
you
see
for
this
committee
empowerment
being
able
to
be
a
forum
for
bringing
forward
views
to
the
government
I.
B
Think
that
would
be
a
very
welcome,
but
for
Kavita
I
think
the
formation
of
the
committee
is
an
indication
by
Parliament
of
the
recognition
of
the
seriousness
of
the
issues
that
are
faced
and
they're,
obviously
subject:
committees
that
can
look
at
a
variety
of
different
issues
within
their
own
responsibilities.
But
I
think
the
covert
committee
provides
a
gathering
place
for
some
of
that.
Thinking.
I
very
much
welcome
this
opportunity
to
be
able
to
explain
in
more
detail
the
thinking
that's
gone
into.
B
The
framework
document
and
I
know
that
ministers
are
selling
for
one
and
other
ministers
would
be
happy
to
appear
before
the
committee
to
address
any
issues
and,
of
course,
and
if
we
would
be
king,
as
we
hear
members
views
of
members
of
the
public
to
make
sure
that's
widely
shared.
And
the
committee
may
have
a
role
to
perform
in
scrutinizing
some
of
that
thinking
and
the
response
of
the
government
to
these
equations
as
his
fate.
In
the
course
of
this
evidence
session
today.
B
I
will
not
be
able
to
to
provide
definitive
points
to
the
committee
about
steps
that
we
might
take.
But
we
will
get
to
the
point
where
we
take
definitive
state
steps
and
we
should
be
scrutinized
for
those
definitive
steps
and
ministers
will
be
happy
to
engage
with
the
Committee
on
those
and
any
other
questions.
A
D
Thank
You
convener
I'd
like
to
ask
about
suppression
as
an
objective
as
the
debts.
First,
ministers
I
look
like,
and
that's
not
the
objective
that
some
other
countries
are
pursuing
here,
so
New
Zealand's
strategy
and
as
mentioned
in
their
their
National
Action
Plan,
remains
to
eliminate
covert
19
and
to
stamp
out
transmission
with
unaffected
clusters.
Other
countries
like
Vietnam,
which
is
also
far
larger
than
New
Zealand
or
Scotland,
have
pursued
this
strategy
a
very
successful
as
well.
There's
a
big
difference
between
a
suppression,
strategy
and
elimination.
D
Suppression
is
premised
on
minimizing
harm
until
vaccines
developed
and
in
evidence
to
the
Health
Committee.
Yesterday,
professor
a
hue
can
in
turn
that
he
advised
the
Scottish
government
to
pursue
elimination
and
he
argued
that
an
aggressive
test
raised
nicely
strategy
and
it
might
actually
make
that
possible
by
Christmas.
So
I
was
wondering
for
the
cabinet
secretary
could
outline
why
the
Scottish
Government
is
pursuing
suppression
rather
than
elimination
as
its
strategy.
D
B
Think
that's
in
a
sense
the
the
difference
in
points
that
have
been
expressed
here
and
I.
I.
Don't
actually
think
is
that
significant,
because
I
cannot
see
I
mean
the
agenda
we
are
taking
forward
and
the
steps
that
we
take
in
trying
to
tackle
coronavirus
will
involve
anything
other
than
a
taste
base
and
isolate
strategy.
As
part
of
the
actions
that
we
take.
B
We
will
pursue
I,
taste,
trace
and
isolate
strategy,
so
I
think
the
the
objective
of
the
government
is
to
ensure
that
we
eliminate
coronavirus
and
the
terminology
I
would
use
and
have
used
is
to
suppress
the
virus
and,
as
far
as
we
can
and
to
use
techniques
such
as
and
taste
trace
and
isolate
to
secure
that
objective.
And
but
it
will
be
an
essential
part
of
the
response
of
the
government
from
where
we
are
to
be
before.
We
need
to
get
to
to
tackle
the
effective
covert
in
our
society.
D
But
just
to
clarify
that
is
the
government's
objective:
to
achieve
the
level
of
elimination
that
has
been
achieved
in
countries
like
New,
Zealand
and
Vietnam,
and
the
absence
of
a
vaccine
and
the
Deputy
First
Minister's
contention
years.
Essentially,
this
is
a
difference
in
language
between
suppression,
elimination
to
be
helpful.
If
you
could
confirm
that
the
the
government
is
attempting,
in
the
absence
of
a
vaccine
as
an
elimination
strategy,
well.
B
I'm
not
trying
to
be
difficult
here,
but
we
are
trying
to
do
both
we're
trying
to
get
a
vaccine
and
we're
trying
to
reduce
the
impact
of
culvert
as
far
as
we
possibly
can
do
in
the
absence
of
a
vaccine
Nova.
So
if
that
is
so
successful
that
it
reduces
the
effect
of
culvert
to
the
point
where
we
are
and
in
many
respects
and
less
dependent,
Olive
axon,
then
that
will
be
a
major
success
of
the
strategy
that
we
take
forward
and
but
I
don't
think.
B
We
should
simply
say
that
it's
an
either/or
as
the
point
I'm
trying
to
make
you
know
we
are
kin
to
secure
a
vaccine
to
give
us
long-term
security
through
covert
19,
but
we
are
equally
trying
to
do
be
as
effective
as
we
possibly
can
be
in
the
short,
medium
and
long
term
in
depressing
the
effect
of
corporate
19
on
our
society
and
and
that's
the
entire
focus
of
all
the
measures
that
we
take
forward.
There
isn't
a
level
of
of
covered
presence
in
our
society
that
masters
our
opinion.
B
D
Thanks
for
that,
and
to
be
clear,
of
course,
I
knowledge
that
the
government
are
pursuing
a
vaccine
as
part
of
the
strategy,
but
these
questions
are
about
what
we
do
until
and
unless
that
vaccines.
There,
though
I'm
wondering
if
I,
could
ask
what
assessments
have
been
made
of
the
impact
of
any
delays
and
the
procurement
of
accident
discovery
and
the
procurement
of
a
vaccine.
B
The
clearly
the
early,
a
vaccine-
well
in
a
sense,
if
you
come
back
to
some
of
the
material
that
I've
just
rehearsed
in
the
last
answer-
that
we
want
to
decide
is
not
functioning
as
we
are
all
accustomed
to
just
know
because
of
the
presence
of
Corbett.
Do
we
have
to
remove
that
Freight
from
our
society?
B
Restrictive
measures
of
some
sort
to
try
to
help
us
do
to
deal
with
the
violence
within
our
society
when
of
us
around
the
the
discipline
that
would
be
required
are
owned
and
K
Street
and
isolate
and
and
the
other
restrictions
that
might
be
in
place
in
society
or
other
restrictions
that
we
may
have
to
consider
in
due
course.
So
it's
about,
and
so
it's
a
if
we
are,
and
if
we
want
a
vaccine
or
long
term
or
shoes,
then
the
sooner
that
can
be
available
the
better.
D
Thank
you
and
finally
and
I
hope
briefly
have
a
question
about
the
evidence
base
for
the
Scottish
Government's
decision.
We
can
go
back
to
previous
discussions
for
the
convener
in
Shona
Robinson
and
there's
obviously
been
some
public
concern
about
the
evidence
that
governments
are
taking
in
the
UK
about
who
doesn't
does
not
get
to
contribute
at
meetings
of
stage
that
the
UK
advisory
group,
for
example,
and
but
you
mentioned
the
Scottish
Government's
corvid
19
advisory
group.
D
The
the
advice
of
this
group
provides
has
not
yet
as
not
currently
being
published
and
the
minutes
of
its
meetings
are
a
really
very
sparse
and
but
clearly
the
evidence
based
the
government
is
using
how
shifted
it
was.
Only
a
few
weeks
ago,
the
chief
medical
officer
said
that
testing
only
works
in
a
window
of
septa
Matic
people
we're
now
in
a
place
for
a
Scottish
government
policy
as
it
test
all
over
70s
on
that
mentioned.
B
B
To
be
honest,
that
lesson
is
starting
point
to
myself,
which
is
about
making
sure
that
I
assure
the
committee
of
the
government's
commitment
to
any
open
dialogue
around
these
questions,
and
there
will
be
a
range
of
advice
as
an
August
input
to
me,
a
hard
question
that
comes
to
government.
We
have
to
evaluate
that.
We
have
to
make
a
judgment
about
what
we
consider
to
be
the
most
compelling
and
response
we
can
give
to
that
advice
and
then
to
say
to
openly
qualify.
B
B
vo
says
we
published
the
minutes
and
obviously
the
scientific
information
and
advice
that
we
received
from
that
forum
was
part
of
the
judgment
that
the
government
openly
sets
out
on
a
daily
basis
and
the
briefings
that
are
given
by
the
first
minister
or
the
health
secretary,
and
also
in
the
scrutiny,
that's
undertaken
by
parliamentary
committees
and
I'm
certain
that
the
government
will
be
very
happy
engaged
father
with
parliamentary
committees
on
any
further
scrutiny
that
may
be
required
in
that
respect.
I,
don't.
A
E
Thank
you,
computer
yeah,
just
a
very
brief
supplementing
on
the
back
of
hostage
question
about
the
elimination
strategy.
He
mentioned.
New,
Zealand
and
Vietnam
is
two
examples.
I
don't
know
so
much
of
a
Vietnam
experience,
but
I
wonder
if
Scottish
government
is
packing
up
the
form
to
the
other
countries.
Have
there
been
any
discussions
with,
for
example,
the
government
of
New
Zealand
if
I
know
more
about
the
measures
of
the
uptake
and
if
we
can
learn
from
from
that
example,
thank
you.
B
There
certainly-
and
the
government
is
looking
very
carefully
at
as
I
said
in
my
opening
statement
at
international
evidence
and
advice,
and
we
are
obviously
talking
to
a
range
of
different
countries
around
the
world
identifying.
What
are
the
and
the
steps
that
have
been
taken
and
of
scientific
community
is
well
connected
to
the
international
community
and
obviously
the
base
is
falling
into
the
chief
medical
officers,
Advisory
Group,
into
the
bargain
and
into
the
work
of
our
chief
medical
officer.
A
Okay,
thank
you
thank
you
for
that,
and
my
next
questioner
is
Willie
coffee
just
before
it
bring
in
Willie
I
just
want
to
observe.
Looking
at
the
clock,
we've
had
quite
long
questions
and
answers
so
far,
and
we
are
jude
finished
by
4
o'clock
to
let
us
whinny
away.
So
we
have
slightly
shorter
questions
and
answers.
Are
they
going
to
be
helpful?
Willie.
F
Okay,
thank
you.
Can
you
know,
can
I
ask
you
a
cabinet
secretary
if
the
government
is
currently
looking
at
what
the
arrangements
may
be
for
the
variety
of
our
High
Street
businesses
pushed
lockdown
for
reopening.
Clearly
there
will
be
definite
arrangements
in
place
depending
in
the
nature
of
the
business,
or
are
we
thinking
about
what
these
arrangements
are
just
know
and
preparing
any
guidance
for
them
so
that
they
can
operate
safely,
but
not
only
to
the
open.
B
Across
a
range
of
sectors
convener,
the
government
is
engaged
in
dialogue
about
what
recovery
might
look
like
and
in
each
particular
sector
and
the
economy.
Secretary
Fiona
Heslov
has
been
involved
in
very
sustained
discussions
with
all
sectors
of
the
economy
and
the
business
community
on
and
what
the
arrangements
might
be
like.
Should
we
get
to
the
point
of
being
able
to
move
and
forward
from
lock?
B
Then
a
stress
we
are
not
yet
at
that
point,
but
we
are
having
those
discussions
so
that
we
can
understand
what
might
be
the
impact
of
some
of
the
continuation
of
the
measures
that
we
have
in
place,
that
social
distancing
is
going
to
have
to
become
a
fact
of
life
for
the
foreseeable
future
and
high
street
business
is
reopening
will
have
to.
Thankfully,
how
can
they
operate
in
that
context?
Now,
of
course,
Tom
food
retailers
have
gone
through
that
process
already
and
have
confirmed
we
configured
their
business
propositions
very
significantly
to
take
that
into
account.
B
We
are
looking
carefully
at
other
countries
and
seen
that
experience
and
see
the
measures
that
we
have
taken.
The
approaches
that
they've
taken
and
thus,
as
I
said,
my
previous
answer-
happening
across
a
range
of
different
areas
of
activity
within
Scottish
society
in
which
ministers
and
officials
are
involved,
and
there
will,
of
course,
to
go
back
to
the
question
that
sure
they're
always
input
to
me
about
the
example
in
Germany
also
be
the
experience
of
seeing
some
of
the
implications
of
relaxation
of
measures
and
some
of
the
complications
and
difficulties
that
can
present.
B
For
the
the
approaches
been
taken
to
tackle
Korona
violence.
There
will
be
a
lot
of
learning
to
be
undertaken
from
listening
to
other
countries
who
are
at
a
different
stage
in
the
handling
of
the
pandemic,
and
it's
a
really
valuable
source
of
intelligence.
For
us
informing
the
approaches
that
we
we
may
wish
to
take.
F
In
my
final
question
to
you
join
us
about
there,
the
only
issue,
insulin
and
safe
delivery
to
people's
homes,
and
some
businesses
have
adapted
really
really
well
using
online
and
phone
ordering
with
safe
deliveries
being
made
to
people's
who,
thus
all
okay.
As
far
as
the
government
is
concerned,
even
if
the
particular
business
activity
isn't
exactly
essential
in
the
fight
against
Karuna
violence
means
safe.
The
Lovely's
can't
eat
this
at
home
as
we
knew
azad
the
government.
She
allah
revealed
it.
That's
okay,
to
continue
that
practice.
B
Fundamentally,
we
would
want
any
business
to
operate
within
a
safe
environment,
a
safe
environment
that
protects
their
employees,
find
a
safe
environment
that
creates
customers
in
every
respect.
There's
been
a
huge
amount
of
whirling
voluntary
cooperation
from
the
business
community
for
the
restrictions
that
have
been
put
in
place
and
many
organizations
have
exercised
and
tremendous
public
spiritedness
in
contributing
towards
this
effort.
I
recognize
that
that
room
that
that
becomes
ever
more
challenging
for
as
long
as
business
activity
is
either
paused
or
operating
in
this
very
different
fashion.
B
The
businesses
really
have
to
think
through
what
are
the
adaptations
and
approaches
they
need
to
take
to
make
sure
that
they
have
in
place
all
of
the
necessary
protections
for
their
staff
and
for
their
customers,
and
they
also
have
to
be
mindful
of
the
strategic
advice,
which
is
that
we
are
saying
to
people
only
make
journeys
if
they
are
absolutely
essential.
Do
you
not
leave
the
house
unless
you
are
working
on
an
essential
business,
only
go
to
the
shops
on
an
infrequent
basis
and
for
pharmacy
trips?
G
Thank
you
can
be
that
I
wanted
to
ask
about
the
our
number
and
given
that
this
is
an
important
effect
of
government
policy.
The
the
framework
published
last
week
is
very
clear
that
the
odd
number
of
transition
rate
is
where
it
is
an
important
factor
and
it
has
to
stay
below
one
to
avoid
exponential
growth
on
page
11
of
the
pre-market
says
that
the
current
estimate
is
that
artists
between
zero
point
six
and
one
point
zero,
and
that
seems
quite
at
a
wide
margin.
Given
it's
important.
So
could
I
ask
mr.
B
The
our
number
is
I
would
describe
as
critical
do
the
discussions
that
we
are
having
on
this
question
and
it
is
densely
the
fundamental
piece
of
information
upon
which
we
have
to
focus
and
and
the
the
bridges
which
I
mentioned
the
fact
that
in
the
document,
the
estimate
is
between
point
six
and
one
and
I
don't
think
it's
it's
quite
firm
enough
to
see
that
it
just
has
to
be
below
one
to
allow
us
to.
Perhaps
you
know,
as
if
we're
making
headway
it
has
to
be
well
below
one
that
has
a
coming
become
estimate.
B
The
most
recent
estimate,
I've
seen,
is
that
the
our
number
is
sitting
at
about
point
seven.
Now
that
does
not
suggest
there
is
a
vast
amount
of
deference
between
that
level
and
a
level
of
which
our
Health
Service
would
have
and
we'd
have
real
difficulty
in
coping
with
the
health
related
harm
coming
from
covered.
So
we
need
to
be
undertaking
sustained
measures
to
reduce
that
our
number,
and,
of
course
that
has
happened,
because
the
estimate
was
that
the
our
number
was
probably
in
excess
of
three
when
the
lock
that
measures
happened.
B
Think
the
more
challenging
the
modeling
would
become
an
equation
and
the
chief
statistician
of
the
Scottish
Government
would
be
able
to
explain.
It
may
actually
be
a
valuable
discussion
for
the
committee
to
have
explained
some
of
those
variables,
because
he
and
I
have
discussed
these
questions
about
what
might
be
the
opportunity
to
identify
in
different
parts
of
Scotland.
Did
we
have
a
different
position
as
a
consequence
of
the
modelling
information
and
don't
mean
the
the
saint's
that
I
got
from
those
conversations?
G
Thank
You
mr.
Sweeney,
that's
very
helpful
elsewhere
in
the
document
there's
a
number
of
other
factors
that
will
be
taken
into
consideration
beyond
the
transmission
rate,
and
some
of
these
competing
priorities
could
even
become
contradictory.
I
mean
on
page
13.
It
says
that
our
values
matter
to
on
on
page
six,
it
says
to
listen
to
the
people
of
Scotland
and
on
page
14
a
factor
is
to
see
how
well
any
measures
can
be
communicated,
but
I
wonder
how
these
different
factors
weighted
into
the
decision
making
along
was.
They
are
a
number.
B
The
the
odd
number
is
the
absolutely
critical
factor,
because
unless
that
is
reducing
father,
we
do
not
have
Headroom
to
relax
the
lock
them
and
so
therefore,
the
importance
of
members
of
the
public
actively
cooperating
with
the
measures
that
we
have
set
out.
This
has
been
great
so
far
and
it's
essential
that
that
is
sustained
in
the
people
informed.
B
Now,
as
we
begin
to
consider
what
stage
we
might
take
to
relax
the
lockdown,
we
into
as
the
special
I
think,
fairly
sets
out
and
a
number
of
choice
tests,
which
can
often
be
competing
choices
and
competing
issues.
If
we
take
the
frame
of
this
stuff,
the
framework
talks
about
four
harms
the
covert
health
on
the
non-covered
have
found
to
show
harm
and
in
all
account
they
are
all
farms,
but
the
elements
of
them
that
are
perhaps
in
conflict
with
each
other,
and
so
we
have
to
essentially.
B
We
do
we
have
haven
from
the
reduction
in
the
our
number
and
then
the
process
have
a
debate
with
members
of
the
public
about
what
might
be
the
most
important
steps
to
take
to
move
on
from
where
we
are
today.
We
do
the
public
think
we
should
witness
public
opinion
in
terms
of
what
should
be
the
next
steps
that
we
take,
and
some
of
those
will
be
inevitable
will
be
different
from
each
other.
B
And
of
course,
we
may
not
have
the
capacity
in
the
head
room
between
our
and
the
level
at
which
the
National
Health
Service
is
unable
to
cope
to
do
all
of
them.
Here,
for
example,
and
members
the
public
might
say
that
we'd
liked
it
as
mr.
coffee.
His
sister
would
like
to
Steve
high
street
shops
and
open
a
bit
more,
and
they
might
say
we
also
want
to
see
the
schools
open
and
there
might
not
be
enough
Headroom
between
our
and
the
point
at
which
the
Health
Service
is
overwhelmed.
G
A
E
Thank
you
and
good
afternoon
cabinet
secretary
and
I
was
listening
to
one
of
your
earlier
answers
to
sure
little
person
we
are,
you
did
DNA
chase
because
of
all
the
changes
it's
not
overwhelmed
and
has
ample
capacity,
although
we
know
that
there
are
other
issues
that
have
arisen
because
of
that.
But
today
we
learned
more
about
the
pattern
of
court
19
deaths
that
are
cutting
and
we
know
that
there's
more
data
cutting
them
into
your
homes
within
hospitals.
E
E
I
just
wondered
if
thought
has
been
given
to
what
more
we
can
do
it
in
the
care
sector
and
protect,
yellow
the
NHS
Louise,
our
Jordan,
which
and
always
leaders
part
of
the
American,
see
planning
forward
any
chase,
but
that's
currently
not
being
used
as
far
as
I
know
store
as
a
and
a
possibility
that
that
could
be
used
to
treat
taste
and
isolate
here.
Home
residents
are
all
the
vulnerable
people
who
are
so
very
much
in
the
center
of
the
crisis.
B
The
first
thing
I'd
see
commuters,
I
recognize
the
significance
of
the
issues
that
Moloch
alone
raises
about
the
the
care
home
sector,
and
it
is
important
that
the
sector
is
properly
and
effectively
supported
to
provide
the
care
that
all
of
us
would
want
to
seed
for
individuals
who
are
living
in
in
care.
Homes,
I
think
some
of
the
the
work
that's
been
undertaken.
B
So
that
would
be
my
as
molecule.
Animal
appreciate
and
I'm
know
it's
close
to
these
issues
as
the
health
secretary
will
be,
but
that
would
be
my
judgment
about
what
would
be
best
for
what
is-
and
we
all
know
to
be
a
very
real
group
within
our
society.
Already
and
many
individuals
in
our
care
homes
may
be
suffering
also
from
dementia,
and
therefore
the
ability
of
giving
them
support
in
an
environment
with
which
be
unfamiliar
is
a
very
important
part
of
the
support
for
those
individual
patients.
E
Thank
you
cabinets
a
coochie
and
actively
involved
in
somebody
discussions,
whether
the
hill
sacred
river,
just
good,
to
know
that
things
are
not
being
ruled
out
and
coming
back
to
the
framework
document,
the
document
acknowledges
that
any
transition
arrangements
is
become
out
of.
Lockdown
must
look
at
the
impact
or
in
different
groups,
and
second
with
older
people.
Donald
McCaskill
or
Scottish
here
recently
said
that
blanket
restrictions
on
people
over
70,
for
example,
who
may
be
expected
to
social
investors
for
a
longer
than
that
is
the
population,
would
be
unethical
and
discriminatory.
E
B
Think
if
you
know
that
Monica
memories
is
one
of
the
most
difficult
issues
that
we
have
to
look
at,
because
the
on
the
one
hand,
the
we
know
from
the
data-
and
we
had
a
veteran
reminder
of
it
at
the
first
ministers
briefing
today
with
the
information
that
Monica
lend
has
cited,
the
covert
19
is
having
a
disproportionately
severe
effect
on
the
elderly
within
our
society.
You
know
there
is
a
very
direct
covert
health
harm
that
is
damaging
the
members
of
our
society.
But
equally
there
are
members
of
our
society
there
over.
B
Do
that,
essentially,
is
the
dilemma
that
we
can
only
resolve
by
good
dialogue
and
good
decision-making,
and
that's
why
we've
dead
hope
that
people
here
to
try
to
the
provide
the
range
of
choices
that
be
says
as
a
society
and
as
a
country
and
to
enable
that
to
be
a
discussion
about
those
issues,
inform
decision-making,
don't
I'm,
not
in
a
position
today
to
see
which
saying
that
our
argument,
the
government
comes
down
on,
because
the
government
hasn't
come
to
a
conclusion
about
that.
What
we've
tried
to
do
in
the
paper
is
satanic.
B
The
type
of
considerations
that
we
have
to
a
bear
in
mind.
Ethical
considerations
are
one
of
those,
and
issues
of
equalities
in
human
rights
are
another
aspect
that
we
have
to
be
mindful
of.
Do.
We
have
to
have
a
rounded
discussion
of
all
of
these
questions,
as
we
wrestle
with
what
are
very
clearly
difficult
decisions
as
a
consequence
of
the
situation
in
which
we
find
ourselves.
E
Thank
you
and
appreciate
these
are
not
easy
questions
or
issues
and
I
just
said
why
the
cavitation
up
in
one
city
and
any
decisions
and
I
just
wonder,
because
I
and
all
other
members
have
talked
about
the
challenges
will
face
and
engaging
the
public
fully
in
this
and
that
that
needs
to
have
public
consent
and
to
have
buy-in
is
the
cabinet
secretary
out
of
other
countries
have
handled
SMI
where
there's
been
some
legal
challenges
and
other
parts
of
the.
Why
notes,
as
in
other
countries
like
flans,
that
come
up
against
like
huge
public
resistance?
E
B
The
framework
that
we
have
set
out
is
designed
to,
since
you
provide
the
public
with
an
a
very
clear
understanding
of
all
of
the
factors
we
have
to
take
into
account
into
coming
to
our
decisions.
And,
of
course,
one
of
the
one
of
the
the
key
considerations
is
that
whatever
we
do
must
be
lawful
and
no
Monica
lender
will
will
know
that
I'm
not
at
liberty
to
disclose
whether
we
take
or
have
not
taken
legal
advice.
But
I
can't
say
that
in
the
document,
what
we
must
do
must
be
lawful
and
so
what
we.
B
B
How
do
we
get
that
in
real
time
and
life
time
from
members
of
the
public
and
not
several
weeks,
tone
the
Lord
and
in
a
normal
government
consultation
approach,
so
we're
spending
quite
a
bit
of
time
trying
to
make
sure
we
can
frame
the
right
means
here,
those
used
from
the
public
and
obviously-
and
we
will
listen
carefully
to
what
members
of
parliament
say
to
us
as
well,
given
the
contact
that
members
of
parliament
will
be
having
and
through
their
own
dialogue
with
members
of
the
public
and
their
own
constituency.
Key
slot.
A
A
H
Non-Coated
related
health
risks
associated
with
the
with
the
restrictions
that
have
rightly
been
imposed
on
four
of
us.
I
just
want
to
understand
a
bit
more
than
I'd
been
able
to
so
far
about
how
will
the
government
ways
those
non
covert
health
risks
against
the
public
health
risks?
You
know
you
talk
about
tabulation.
Will
we
can
tabulate
the
number
of
hospital
admissions
with
the
doctor
covered?
We
can
tabulate
the
number
of
covered
deaths.
How
do
we
tabulate
the
risk
to
mental
health
that
is
being
caused
by
an
isolation?
H
B
With
you
know,
if
you
can
overwhelm
something
twice,
the
Laster
he'll
say:
I
was
overwhelmed
twice
and
widespread
prevalence
in
our
society.
To
that,
if
the
Nationals
have
said
over
whelmed
by
that,
then
various
other
North
covered
health
harms
would
have
been.
We
would
not
be
able
to
manage
them
either,
though
the
covert
is
presented,
an
emergency
freight
in
which
we
have
had
to
respond
and
in
the
process
we
have
had
to
essentially
pause
a
certain
amount,
not
all
non-covered
health
activity,
but
some
non
covered
health
activity
and
I.
B
Suppose
the
point
I'm
trying
to
get
across
is
that
it
would
have
helped
absolutely
nobody
if
the
Health
Service
have
been
overwhelmed
by
covert
I
know
and
and
in
the
management
and
suppressing
of
covert.
We
have
an
opportunity
to
then
tackle
some
of
the
other
issues,
but
we
I
accept
the
challenge
that
must
have
Thompkins
boots.
B
The
question
from
Beatrice
were
shot,
which
is
that
by
the
mechanism
that
allows
us
to
move
on
on
any
front,
whether
it's
non-covered,
health
or
society
or
the
economy,
is
by
getting
the
our
number
down
as
low
as
we
possibly
can
and
creating
the
Headroom
between
our
odd
number
and
the
point
that
we
know
the
health
service
will
not
be
able
to
cope
and
within
that
Haven
make
a
judgment
about
what
we
consider
to
be
the
most
appropriate
steps
that
we
can
take
to
use
that
Headroom
for
wider
societal
benefit.
Now
mr.
B
Tompkins
presses
me
on
the
non-covered
health
on
the
others
would
place
me
on
reviving
the
economy
and
others
would
press
me
on
getting
the
schools
back
and
getting
the
end
of
the
key
of
interest
park
and,
and
then
the
purpose
of
the
framework
is
to
see
and
I
say
the
mind.
Initial
remarks
were
good
to
have
to
take
from
incremental
steps
problem.
Small
incremental
steps
out
of
this
was
also
accepting
that
some
of
the
reasons
which
we've
lived
their
lives
up
until
now
might
not
be
possible
in
in
the
PD
that
lies
ahead
and.
H
People
for
that
the
answer
I
agree
with
it.
Everything
that
the
business
does
I
say.
Interest
wants
to
make
my
first
question,
but
the
the
framework
document
before
decision-making,
which
was
very
helpfully
published
by
the
Scottish
Government
last
weekend
and
welcome
to
the
publication
of
that
document,
says
that
the
government
proposes
regular
monitoring
of
other
health
harms
stemming
from
COBIT
nineteen
in
order
to
validate
existing
assessment.
H
I
fully
accept
that
there
are
lots
of
other
considerations
that
must
also,
at
the
same
time,
be
added
to
the
message,
maybe
even
more
complicated,
including
the
economic
issues
and
issues
about
schooling,
with
the
deputy
first
note
is
referred
to,
but
I'm
just
trying
to
understand
how
those
risks
are
a
belated
one
or
two
weighed
against
each
other
I
suppose,
if
you
need
to
put
it
in
the
vernacular
which
may
or
may
not
be
helpful
again,
just
focusing
on
the
health
considerations.
Is
there
a
point
at
which
that
cure
becomes
worse
than
the
disease?
I?
H
Suppose
that's
what
I'm
sort
of
trying
to
drive
at
and
that
there,
because
it
seems
if
I've
understood
him
to
say
that
there
is
a
point
at
which
that
cure
becomes
worse
than
the
disease.
At
that
point,
and
at
that
point
is
reached
only
when
the
our
number
is
driven
down
as
far
as
it
possibly
can
be
and
not
point
seven
seems
to
be
still
too
high
because
it
doesn't
create
enough
Headroom
to
enable
us
to
begin
to
relax
a
lot.
Would
that
be
a
fair
way
summarizing
the
government's
position.
B
Certainly
that
the
the
point
that
mr.
Tompkins
makes
that
the
our
number
isn't
low
enough
to
give
us
comfort
to
start
relaxing
measures
is,
is
an
absolutely
fearsome
one
of
the
government's
position.
But
we
need
to
see
that
reducing
further
and
we
hope
that
that
will
be
the
case
in
as
each
day
goes
by
and
we
see
more
encouraging
information
on
hospital
admissions
and
ICU
admissions.
B
Then,
given
the
the
the
fact
that
we
have
made
or
hope
to
make
in
the
course
of
the
next
few
weeks,
significant
progress
in
reducing
the
incidence
of
covert
and
that
you
come
back
to
the
point
that
we
have
made
a
lot
of
progress
already.
If,
if
I
was
over
three,
who
was
over
three
and
is
now
going
to
point,
seven
members
of
the
public
have
made
a
really
big
big
impact
on
that.
B
Tompkins
fundamental
point,
which
is
that
but
isn't
just
one
hand
facing
our
society
today,
which
is
covered
hon,
there's
three
other
harms,
there's
non-covered
health
on
does
economic
harm
and
the
social
harm,
and
so
it's
a
completely
fair
premises,
the
premise
of
which
the
framework
document
is
state.
But
what
we're
trying
to
do
in
thinking
through?
What
might
be
the
steps
we
take
in
response
to
this?
They
tried
to
address
some
of
the
dilemmas
that
mr.
H
Again,
that's
very
helpful
and
ended
that,
because
a
little
bit
of
that
and
final
question
for
me
just
to
kind
of
give
it
a
give
one
possible
example
of
the
kinds
of
things
that
in
the
generality
we've
been
we've
been
talking
about
it
over
the
course
of
the
weekend
in
the
precipice.
One
of
the
ideas
that
was
floated
was
that
we
might
be
able
to
take
steps
towards
ending
and
social
isolation
by
enabling
people
to
and
have
I
think
they
described
as
bottles
of
ten
in
the
press.
H
B
Am
afraid
I'm
going
to
I'm
afraid
I'm
going
to
take
the
unanswerable
option
here,
and
the
committee
will
forgive
me
and
because
that
that
well
bubble
option
might
be
one
that
may
be
pursued
at
the
point
that
mr.
Tompkins
are
there.
Questions
have
helpfully
allowed
me
to
explain.
Is
that
every
bit
of
headroom
above
our
and
below
the
point
of
which
the
health
service
is
unable
to
function?
B
Use
doc
by
one
of
these
options,
whether
it's
the
bubble
option
or
screwed
returning
or
and
opening
up
the
health
service
for
more
non
covered?
Health
interventions
keeps
up
some
of
that
hedging
and
it
can't
be
used
twice.
So
we
would
have
to
accept
that
and
I
completely
understand
this
point.
You
know
people
are
feeling
social
isolation
within
our
society.
I
can
dear
I
can
feel
it
and
I've
standard,
and
and
if
we
decide
advantage
to
be
our
priority,
we
should
do
that.
I
Deputy
First
Minister,
section
seven
of
the
framework
document,
is
about
adjusting
to
a
new
normal
now,
as
somebody
in
his
eighth
decade,
I
particular
interest
in
the
just
into
this
new
normal
and
at
the
bottom
of
page
22.
The
document
says
the
austerity
in
response
to
the
2008
financial
crash
work
and
washing
the
inequality
that
was
part
of
his
cost.
I
We
must
not
repeat
those
mistakes
and
clearly
looking
forward
to
a
post
pandemic
world,
if
not
necessarily
a
first
Kovach
world
and
we're
going
to
all
I
think
want
a
more
equal
society
in
which
we
can
modify
our
behaviors.
To
achieve
that.
To
what
extent
is
the
government
got
some
people
thinking
about
that
beginning
to
see
what
lessons
we
can
learn
from
the
way
society
is
no
working
that
we
might
apply
post
pandemic,
not
post,
covered.
B
We
are
exploring
these
and
these
points,
convener
I,
think
the
experience
of
covered
has
I
think
the
first
society
to
be
calibrate,
some
of
its
understanding
of
who
we
really
rely
on
in
our
society
or
it
to
work
effectively
unconscious.
You,
which
we
all
appreciate
and
understand
now
I
think
a
much
greater
extent
than
we
have
ever
done
before.
B
The
significance
of
the
contribution
by
those
involved
in
health
and
social
care
in
our
society
and
it's
absolute
fundamentals
be
equally
and
the
the
we've
all
been
able
to
to
have
access
to
food
supplies
during
this
whole
process
and
that's
a
product
of
the
contribution
of
many
individuals
who
will
not
be
and
handsomely
rewarded
within
our
society.
So
I
think
the
the
debate
which
is
ensued
about
particularly
in
the
moments
of
of
grieve
grieve,
financial
hardship
for
individuals.
Whether
debate
of
a
universal
basic
income
has
become
much
more
prominent
and
significant.
B
Nur
society
ethic
is
an
illustration
of
that
point.
So
the
government
is,
of
course,
looking
at
these
questions
and
the
as
mr.
Stevenson
will
appreciate
and
questions
at
this
and
how
about
being
on
the
the
government
that
program
for
government
that
we
bring
forward
and
at
Minnesota,
but
reflecting
on
these
issues
once
we
are
I
think
the
committee
will
understand
that
ministers
are
pretty
much
consumed
by
covered
only
issues
just
now,
and
but
we
have
got
Tim
a
team
looking
further
ahead.
They
dare
defy
what
might
be
the
appropriate
course
of
action
to
take
I.
I
A
A
J
J
At
this
point,
and-
and
you
know,
a
number
of
members
have
raised
this
issue
as
well
and
I
just
wanted
to
seek
clarification,
that
it
wouldn't
just
be
as
we
you
know,
as
the
judgment
of
Solomon
has
to
be
exercised
over
the
next
steps,
with
all
the
competing
issues
that
we've
discussed
this
afternoon.
But
I
just
wanted
to
seek
clarification,
that
it
won't
just
be
in
the
kind
of
generality
that
the
perceived
likelihood
of
of
by
and
from
the
people
of
Scotland
will
be
factored
in.
J
B
Think
one
of
the
challenges
in
dealing
with
the
question
that
Annabelle
young
is
raised
is
that
the
the
the
the
there
may
well
be
competing
priorities
that
that
come
forward
from
that
discussion.
I
just
go
back
to
the
questions
that
Adam
Tompkins
race
with
me
a
moment
ago,
but
what
I
was
trying
to
get
across?
There
was
the
fact
that
there
is
a
limited
amount
of
of
hatred.
B
There
will
be
a
limited
amount
of
headroom
between
really
our
numbers
and
the
point
at
which
we
am
are
in
danger
of
overwhelm
in
the
National
Health
Service,
and
it
will
not
be
enough
to
afford
all
of
the
priorities
that
people
might
wish
us
to
do,
and
so
we
may
have
to
make
the
judgment
of
Solomon
about
what
will
be
the
priorities
that
we
decide
to
pursue
wherever
we
see
well.
We
think
those
agree
that
importance
of
doing
this
versus
that.
B
And
but
I
certainly
can't
see
that
it
will
be
possible
for
us
to
do
all
of
the
things
that
I
put
to
us
because
I
just
simply
don't
believe
there
will
be
sufficient
Headroom
between
the
odd
number
and
the
challenges
for
the
health
service.
That
prompted
us
to
act
in
the
way
that
were
acting
over
the
last
and
a
couple
of
months.
J
There
would
be
crucial
that,
given
that
it
is
hope
that
there
will
be
at
least
some
very
where
we
are
I'll
be
perhaps
more
limited
than
people
with
realistically
hope,
but
given
that
and
this
introduction
of
new
issues
and
new
circumstances
and
new
rules,
if
you
like,
will
it
not
be
crucially
important
that
there
are
very,
very
clear
demarcation
lines
as
to
what
is
okay,
what
isn't
okay
and
that
this
is
crystal
clear
so
that
you
keep
this
important
buy-in.
So
people
continue
to
understand
why
something's
being
done
and
why
something
isn't
being
done.
I.
B
Think
that's
an
absolutely
crucial
point
because-
and
it's
a
point-
that's
me
to
us
and
very
clearly
by
the
Chief
Constable
as
well.
If
I
can
go
to
that
end
of
the
spectrum,
because
Chief
Constable
is,
you
know,
is
impulsively
very
clear
with
his
officers
and
with
the
public
about
what
is
acceptable
and
what
is
not
a
not
acceptable
in
the
current
context.
The
minute
we
and
we
move
away
from
that
that
becomes
an
awful
lot
more
and
difficult
to
enforce.
So
if
we
go
back
to
mr.
B
Tompkins
question
and
the
question
of
a
bubble
of
ten
people
and
well
I,
don't
have
my
bubble
of
ten
people
but
for
ratings
day
afternoon,
but
I
have
a
different
bubble
of
people
for
Thursday
afternoon.
There's
absolutely
no
way
the
police
can
see,
which
you
know.
I've
I've
got
two
bubbles
that
I've
I
just
got
the
one
bottle,
so
it
gets
inevitably
a
bit
more
complicated
and
complex.
So
we
have
to
be
very
mindful
of
these
questions
from
we.
Take
the
next
tentative
steps
that
we
we
take
when
that
opportunity
arises.
J
And
one
final
question:
if
I'm
a
convener
when
we
get
to
that
stage,
whenever
that
is
and
whatever
it
actually
will
entail,
can
I
seek
clarification.
Actually,
these
crucial
matters,
they're,
not
just
legalistic
points,
crucial
matters
or
perhaps
variations
and
interpretation
and
differing
views
on
interpretation-
are
in
fact
kept
under
constant
review
so
that
they
can
be
tackled
head-on
before
there's
a
freeing
at
the
edges
of
compliance.
B
What
one
of
the
crucial
questions
that
we've
wrestled
with
throughout
the
covert
experience
has
been
the
necessity
for
clear,
understandable
communication
around
all
aspects
of
what
we
are
asking
members
of
the
public
to
do,
and
that
has
been
something
that
has
assumed
a
huge
amount
of
thinking
within
government
makes
sure
that
we
get
those
messages
correct
and
that
we
present
them
in
the
in
the
most
effective
way
to
members
of
the
public
who
there
are
and
huge
challenges.
In
so
doing.
A
Okay
can
I
thank
you
Annabelle
for
those
questions,
I'm
glad
we
can
finally
get
hear
from
you
and
can
I.
Thank
you,
mr.
Sweeney,
or
your
time
this
afternoon,
or
for
your
engagement
with
the
committee
and
I'm
sure
we
will
continue
to
have
dialogue
with
the
government
in
the
weeks
ahead
as
we
scrutinize
legislation
I
consider
some
of
the
wider
issues
and
going
forward
into
the
future.
So
with
that
I
think
we'll
suspend
briefly
for
about
five
minutes
before
we
move
on
to
the
next
session.
Thank
you
right.
A
If
members
are
ready,
we
can
really
convened.
The
next
item
on
the
agenda
is
taking
evidence
on
the
Health
Protection
coronavirus
restriction,
Scotland
amendment
number
two
regulations:
2020
SSI
2020,
slash
one
to
six
and
we
have
with
us
this
afternoon:
Michael
Russell,
there's
a
cabinet
secretary,
Constitution
and
External
Affairs
in
the
Scottish
Government
and
I
welcome
mr.
Russell
back
to
the
committee
this
afternoon.
I
can
I,
buy
you
to
introduce
and
speak
to
the
regulations
before
us.
A
K
I
explained
communi
last
Friday.
It
is
presently
my
responsibility
to
take
forward
the
legislative
part
of
the
scottish
government's
response
to
the
pandemic.
This
includes
the
regulations
that
give
effect
to
various
aspects
of
the
lockdown
as
some
of
the
activity
and
the
legislative
response
team
established
on
the
committee.
They
might
recap
to
the
background,
because
these
are
amending
regulations.
The
lockdown
regulations
came
into
force
on
the
26th
of
March.
The
regulations
were
made
using
the
made
affirmative
procedure
and
they
came
into
force
immediately
after
they
were
made.
K
The
regulations
were
approved
by
resolution
of
Parliament
on
the
1st
of
April
2020
minor
textual
adjustments
were
made
to
the
principal
regulations
by
amending
regulations.
The
principal
regulations
make
a
number
of
provisions
for
the
long
term.
Broadly,
these
cover
requiring
people
to
stay
at
home,
except
for
very
limited
purposes,
closing
certain
businesses
and
venues
and
stopping
public
gatherings
of
more
than
two
people
in
public,
except
for
very
limited
purposes.
The
regulations
need
to
be
reviewed
at
least
once
every
21
days.
K
The
First
Minister
announced
the
outcome
of
the
first
review
of
the
restrictions
and
requirements
determine
the
principal
regulations
on
the
16th
of
April.
The
outcome
of
that
review
was
that
requirements
and
restrictions
remain
necessary.
Then
next
review
period
ends
on
the
7th
of
May.
The
Scottish
Government
amending
regulations
by
we
have
made
affirmative
procedure
on
the
21st
of
April.
Those
amendments
entered
into
force
immediately
after
being
made,
and
the
plenary
vote
of
the
amending
regulations
is
planned
for
next
week.
The
amending
regulations
make
a
number
of
adjustments
to
the
principal
regulations.
K
They
are
to
adjust
areas
where
the
regulations
could
operate
more
effectively.
Ensure
physical,
distancing
is
maintained
as
widely
as
possible
and
to
clarify
specific
circumstances,
remove
any
ambiguity
from
the
principal
regulations.
They
propose
us
with
the
ballot
in
line
with
the
4
nations
approach
of
taking
many
of
the
same
measures
have
been
taken
by
the
other
administrations.
The
amending
regulations
strengthen
the
position
already
set
out
in
our
guidance
that
all
businesses
must
take
all
reasonable
steps,
ensure
their
employees
are
able
to
maintain
physical
distancing.
K
Businesses
must
also
take
reasonable
measures
to
ensure
that
they
admit
people
into
their
premises
in
sufficiently
small
numbers
to
maintain
a
two
meter.
Distance
businesses
must
also
take
reasonable
steps,
ensure
that
distance
can
also
be
maintained
by
people
that
is
customers
waiting
to
enter
their
premises.
K
According
this
to
the
regulations,
extends
enforcement
powers
of
local
authorities
and
the
police,
but
a
business
is
unreasonably
not
following
physical
distancing
rules.
They
could
be
fined
or
ultimately
prosecuted.
This
ensures
that
there
are
additional
tools
to
help
address
reports
of
poor
social
distancing
and
take
measures
to
reverse
those.
The
amending
regulations
also
make
clear
that
some
businesses
can
remain
open.
This
includes
livestock
markets,
which
are
critical
to
the
food
supply
chain
has
gotten.
K
It
includes
a
wider
range
of
money
and
services,
businesses,
including
currency
exchange
and
stained
clocks,
to
ensure
that
people
have
access
to
financial
services
at
this
difficult
time,
but
also
being
clear
that
holiday
accommodation.
Businesses
must
close
at
the
moment
unless
they're
delivering
specific
services
set
out
in
the
principle
regulations,
but
should
providing
accommodation
for
key
workers.
However,
I'm
sure
we're
all
looking
forward
to
a
time
in
the
future.
When
these
restrictions
can
be
relaxed
plus,
we
do
not
know
when
that
will
be.
K
Some
companies
may
wish
to
take
bookings
for
future
dates
when
they
have
reopened
to
the
public.
The
amending
regulations
enable
holiday
accommodation
services
online
bookings
and
provide
information
for
future
dates
when
these
services
are
no
longer
closed
and
I
stress
that
and
finally,
amending
regulations
also
make
clear
the
burial
grounds
and
Gardens
of
remembrance
associated
with
crematoriums
are
able
to
stay
open
to
the
public.
Although
the
final
decision
on
this
matter
will
rest
with
the
relevant
burial
authority,
those
that's
the
main
content
of
the
amending
regulations.
K
Let
me
just
touch
on
future
amending
regulations,
which
is
linked
very
closely
to
the
discussion
if
you've
just
had
with
the
Deputy
First
Minister.
Last
week,
the
government
published
a
paper
sitting
at
our
thinking
on
the
basis
of
how
future
reviews
should
be
carried
out.
The
said
are
the
criteria
and
the
factors
which
should
be
considered
and
the
framework
of
which
decisions
might
be
best,
and
this
is
clearly
a
key
focus
for
the
government
in
shaping.
K
Our
response
from
here
on
first
minister,
has
been
clearly
want
to
be
open
and
transparent
about
the
options
with
Scotland.
We'll
continue
to
revisit
revisit
this
issue
in
the
coming
days
and
weeks
as
we
develop
that
approach,
our
assessment
framework
will
inform
the
required
reviews
of
the
law
and
regulations
and
collective
assessment
and
decision
making
with
the
UK
government.
Another
devolved
administration's
as
possible.
I
hope
that's
been
helpful
explanation
and,
of
course,
I'm
happy
to
answer
questions
as
best
I
can.
A
Thank
you
cabinet
secretary,
helpful
outline
of
the
provisions
in
the
regulations,
and
we
have
some
members
with
questions
to
ask
about
these.
If
I
could
maybe
just
start
off
on
this
question
of
the
regulations
impacting
on
business
on
the
requirement
for
them
to
socially
distance,
I,
see
that
these
are
now
being
extended
so
that
this
will
apply
to
all
businesses
which
will
be
open
and
there
will
be
powers
given
to
local
authorities
and
the
police
who
impose
fines
on
those
businesses
which
do
not
properly
follow,
and
especially
distinction
rules.
A
I
suppose
there
are
key
questions
that
arise
from
that
to
me.
First
of
all,
and
why
did
the
original
legislation
restrict
this
to
only
certain
businesses,
not
all
businesses
and
wide
efforts?
It
felt
necessary
now
the
extenders
and
is
there
evidence
that
there
is
a
problem
with
businesses
not
complying
that
requires
these
regulations
that
we
brought
in
with
these
powers
to
impose
well.
K
If
you
cast
your
mind
back
to
the
start
of
this
process,
the
the
issue
of
social
distancing
has
grown
in
importance
during
this
time.
Now,
the
question
of
why
not
all
businesses
went
through
this
first
stage,
I
think
is
probably
simply
to
do
with
dealing
with
where
it
could
be
expected
people
to
be
doing
that
process
in
the
lock
down
I
think
now,
as
as
some
businesses
have
reopened,
as
we
know,
there's
that's.
The
number
of
example
of
stores
have
reopened,
including
the
hardware
stores
and
a
number
of
businesses.
K
People
have
returned
to
work,
but
they
can
only
do
so
if
it
is
safe
to
do
so,
and
this
is
the
primary
of
one
of
the
primary
tools,
because
the
question
of
high
a
extremely
important,
so
is
social.
Isolation
of
people
have
symptoms,
but
it
is
one
of
the
ways
of
which
we
can
perhaps
normalize
the
situation,
though
you
know
it
is
not
normal
to
do
this,
but
it
will
protect
people
and
therefore
we
want
to
make
sure
they
are
well
protected
terms
of
evidence.
I
think
reassurance
is
important
than
this
as
well.
K
Some
people
have
I
think
view
as
a
constituency.
Consumers
fees
and
other
MSPs
will
know
that
some
people
have
complained
about
businesses
and
having
to
go
to
work
and
being
in
certain
senses
which
they
felt
were
unsafe.
So
this
gives
them
reassurance,
but
it
also
is
a
helpful
guide
to
business
to
know
what
they
need
to
do
to
be
able
to
operate
in
a
in
an
effective
and
safe
manner,
and
the
method
of
enforcement
of
this
is
important
too.
K
A
J
Yes,
I
just
wanted
to
seek
wee
bit
of
clarity
from
the
cabinet
secretary
and
it's
it's
the
perhaps
just
my
reading
of
the
phraseology,
because
it
talks
about
these.
Are
these
additional
tools
that
the
card
set
referred
to
in
terms
of
fines
and
potential
prosecution
and
the
test
being
unreasonably
failed
to
secure
the
social
distancing.
J
So
that
begs
the
question
born
if
you
reasonably
feel
so
it's
not
just
semantics,
because
the
underlying
issue
then
is:
if
you
cannot
employ
air
in
ensure
the
social
distancing
that
is
required,
then,
presumably
you
can't
open,
and
presumably,
if
you
do
open
and
notwithstanding
all
the
base
efforts
that
you
take
to
try
to
make
that
work
within
the
kind
of
premises
that
you
have,
but
it
doesn't
work,
then,
presumably
you
can't
stay
open
I'm,
just
trying
to
clarify
seek
clarification.
What
the
actual
no
my
vision
would
be
here.
Thank
you.
K
That
would
be
absolutely
true.
If
a
business
cannot
a
operate
it
safely,
it
should
not
be
open.
I
mean
that
is
absolutely
axiomatic,
because
the
risk
of
not
being
able
to
operate
safely
is
the
list
of
people's
lives,
though
you're
a
reasonable
failure.
It
is
nonetheless
the
failure
and
it
should
not
be
happening.
A
I
Thank
you.
Convener
I've
got
one
substantive
question,
which
is
just
in
relation
to
auction
houses
to
whether
the
relaxations
and
the
provisions
also
allow
private
trading
they
of
animals
between
individual
farmers,
because
that
something
that
goes
on
as
well,
particularly
at
this
time
here
we
can
see
cars
and
and
sheep
being
traded
at
the
other
boy.
I
mean
is
perhaps
an
observation
response
as
someone
who's
come
into
this
relatively
new,
because,
of
course,
I
and
Heath
Decatur
and
excluded
from
Parliament
I
am
finding
the
depth
of
changes
to
changes
to
changes
in
the
legislation.
I
K
On
the
second
issue,
I
think
it
is
upon
we,
we
prioritize
the
core
messages
and
the
detail
is
often
something
that
is
not
necessary,
except
if
you
for
people
and
as
they
are
in
a
particular
circumstance.
For
example,
the
issue
of
of
money
advice
centres
is
only
really
relevant
to
compare
to
this
small
group
of
people
that
maybe
demand
for
them,
but
in
terms
of
provision
it's
only
compared
to
small
group
people.
So
let's
stick
to
the
main
message
and
the
main
messages
are
the
messages
of
stay
at
home.
You'll
protect
the
NHS
save
lives.
K
You
know
when
regulations
are
put
together
if
they've
had
to
be
put
quickly,
inevitably
they're
issues
that
have
to
change
new
small
matters,
I
see
almost
every
day
that
you
are
just
trying
to
be
dealt
with,
but
the
main
messages
are
in
here
and
there
I
have
to
say
on
me
the
question
of
individual
trading.
My
initial
reaction.
We
to
think
that
that
is
is
not
a
regulated
business
per
se,
but
I
would
not
want
to
say
anything
that
was
either
I'm
sure
an
unhelpful,
so
Thank
You
mr.
K
Stevenson,
as
ever,
you
have
required
more
work
from
ministers
and
their
officials.
I
shall
be
provided
and
provided
to
the
committee.
But
my
initial
reaction
would
be
that
a
private
transaction
is
a
private
transaction.
But
of
course
you
know,
the
two
farmers
involved
would
have
to
observe
strict
social
distancing.
A
I
E
Thank
you
can
be
no
better
than
cabinet
secretary.
You
mentioned
in
your
opening
statement
that
the
relations
brought
some
clarity
around
access
to
burial
grounds
and
all
that,
having
questions
from
the
public,
about
access
to
cemeteries
and
aside
from
the
actually
attending
funerals,
but
for
people
who
would
tend
to
visit
a
grave
to
leave
flourish.
K
The
stress
to
feel
that
this
was
oppressive
or
difficult
in
any
way
what
the
situation
is,
and
it's
a
good
question
what
the
situation
is
that
the
previous
regulations
left
is
somewhat
ambiguous
and
I
think
it
was
important
that
the
regulations
made
it
clear,
but
they
do
not
go
in
the
point.
You're
making
I
think
it's
a
good
one.
They
do
not
lay
a
duty
upon
the
operators
or
owners
of
burial
grounds
to
do
this.
K
That
is
still
a
discretionary
matter
for
them,
and
they
will
want
to
judge
that
on
a
variety
of
criteria,
I
suspect,
including
the
ability
to
staff,
those
those
areas,
the
ability
to
make
sure
that
social
distancing
has
observed
all
those
matters.
But
there
is
no
blanket
ban
on
that,
which
was
the
interpretation
some
we're
putting
on
it.
No
one
wished
to
you
know
have
to
be
to
be
to
they
forbade
a
blanket
ban
on
people
visiting
the
graves
of
their
loved
ones.
K
That
would
any
Garden
of
Remembrance,
but
it
also
has
to
be
done
within
the
social
distancing.
It
has
to
be
done
within
the
bar
on
groups
of
people
meeting
together.
So
it
would
be
with
the
immediate
household
and
nobody
else,
and
it
would
have
to
be
done
carefully,
but
there
is
no
blanket
ban.
But
of
course,
the
view.
The
safe
view
of
the
owners
and
operators
of
the
grounds
and
gardens
of
remembrance,
associated
crematorium
or
burial
grounds
would
be
possible.
A
Okay,
thank
you.
I,
don't
see
any
other
members
who
have
questions
to
ask
to
the
cabinet
secretary,
so
we
will
move
on
to
item
three
are
on
the
agenda
and
I've
asked
you
counterfactually.
If
you
would
move
motion
s5m
to
one
five,
seven,
two,
that
the
covert
19
committee
recommends
that
the
Health
Protection
coronavirus
restrictions,
not
an
amendment
at
number,
two
regulations:
2020
SSI,
a
2020,
slash,
1
to
6,
be
approved.
I.
A
A
Can
they
please
indicate
that
no
thank
you
I'm,
not
seeing
any
disagreement
and
therefore
we
are
taking
that
emotion
as
a
Greek
and
the
committee
when
I
published
a
report
to
Parliament
setting
out
a
decision
on
the
statutory
instrument
in
the
coming
days,
that
was
our
last
item
on
the
agenda
kind
of
Thank
You
captain
a
secretary
for
joining
us
I
kind
of
thank
members
and
then
I
close.
The
meeting.
Thank.