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From YouTube: COVID-19 Committee - 30 September 2020
Description
COVID-19 Committee
A
A
The
parliament
degree
changes
to
the
committee's
membership
in
its
session
on
wednesday,
the
16th
of
september,
meaning
that
stuart
stevenson
and
ross
greer
have
moved
on
to
take
up
other
parliamentary
roles.
I
would
like
to
take
this
opportunity
to
put
on
record
the
committee's
thanks
to
stuart
and
ross
for
their
valued
contribution
to
our
work.
I
would
also
like
to
welcome
our
new
members,
macmillan,
msp
and
mark
ruskall
msp
to
this
committee,
and
can
I
now
invite
them
to
declare
any
relevant
interests?
Firstly,
stuart.
B
A
A
Thank
you
mark.
I
will
now
turn
to
the
next
agenda
item
number
two,
which
is
the
kerbin
19
framework
for
decision
making
and
scotland's
root
map.
Members
will
be
aware
that
the
first
minister
announced
the
scottish
government's
intention
to
bring
forward
new
restrictions
to
respond
to
coronavirus
on
the
22nd
of
september,
which
are
now
in
force.
A
We
will
formally
consider
the
secondary
legislation
that
gives
effect
to
those
restrictions
at
our
meeting
next
week,
but
in
the
meantime,
this
morning's
evidence
session
is
intended
to
be
quite
an
open
session,
where
the
committee
is
able
to
ask
ministers
and
officials
about
how
the
latest
restrictions
fit
into
the
scottish
government's
wider
plan
respond
to
the
pandemic.
What
lies
ahead?
A
We
are
joined
by
john
sweeney,
msp,
deputy
first
minister
and
cabinet
secretary
for
education
and
skills
and
gene
freeman,
msp
government
secretary
for
health
and
sport.
The
ministers
are
supported
by
scottish
government
officials
and
they
are
professor
jason
leach,
national
clinical
director
and
richard
fogo,
director
of
population
health.
Can
I
welcome
all
of
you
to
the
meeting
and
thank
you
for
attending
deputy
first
minister.
Can
I
first
invite
you
to
make
an
opening
statement.
D
D
At
times,
we've
had
to
pause
and
take
a
little
longer
to
make
progress,
but
we've
now
reached
a
point
in
phase
three,
where
around
96
of
our
businesses
are
trading
again,
though
many
will
be
operating
below
full
capacity.
Our
children
have
returned
to
school,
and
many
social
activities
have
been
able
to
resume.
D
D
D
We
need
to
bring
the
r
number
down
rapidly
back
below
one,
so
the
virus
returns
to
a
downward
trajectory
and
we
need
to
suppress
the
virus
back
to
very
low
levels.
Again,
a
route
map
describes
an
evidence-led,
transparent
and
phased
approach
to
varying
restrictions,
to
judge
whether
and
when
restrictions
can
be
changed,
a
range
of
evidence
is
considered
on
the
progress
of
the
pandemic
in
scotland,
including
what
we
know
about
the
reproduction
rate,
the
r
number
of
the
virus
and
data
on
the
number
of
infectious
cases.
D
D
D
We
are
making
changes
at
a
pace
and
at
a
level
that
we
think
is
right
and
safe
for
our
current
circumstances.
In
scotland,
the
deteriorating
status
of
the
epidemic
means
that
decisions
need
to
be
taken
quickly
on
the
interventions
required
to
suppress
the
virus
again
in
scotland,
other
countries
in
the
uk
and
across
the
world
are
grappling
with
a
similar
situation.
D
D
On
sunday,
we
published
guidance,
which
explains
how
the
current
restrictions
and
social
gatherings
apply
to
students
living
away
from
home.
This
guidance
applies
from
monday,
the
28th
of
september
and
should
be
read
by
students
alongside
wider
scottish
government
guidance,
as
well
as
any
local
restrictions
in
place
in
that
area.
D
A
E
But
as
we
move
into
autumn,
we
are
seeing
an
upsurge
in
cases
of
transmission
and,
as
the
deputy
minister
first
minister
has
just
said,
the
r
number
is
our
indicator
of
spread
and
provides
us
with
a
very
short
time
frame
to
take
action.
As
you've
heard
and
as
you've
said
yourself.
On
the
22nd
of
september,
the
first
minister
announced
a
new
set
of
restrictions
to
protect
the
population
from
the
spread
of
kobe
19..
E
These
are
difficult
decisions
to
make
throughout
the
response
to
the
pandemic,
and
these
decisions
on
the
22nd
of
september
were
no
different.
We
see
these
new
measures
as
a
necessary
action
to
prevent
a
resurgence
in
community
transmission
of
the
virus
and
the
potential
for
a
rapid
return
to
the
pressures
we
experienced
earlier
in
the
year.
E
The
new
measures,
as
you
know,
focus
on
no
household
visits
and
at
10
pm
closing
time
for
hospitality.
Like
every
decision.
There
are
many
factors
at
play.
Our
response
to
the
pandemic
is
informed
by
clinical
and
public
health
advice,
which
ensures
the
health
population.
The
health
of
the
population
takes
a
priority.
E
That
is
why,
as
we
make
decisions,
we
try
as
far
as
we
can
to
balance
the
protection
of
life
and
the
care
for
those
who
are
most
at
risk
from
harm
from
the
virus,
with
fairness
and
with
quality
of
life.
On
the
analysis
of
public
health,
scotland
and
the
chief
statistician,
we
took
a
decision
at
a
pivotal
point
in
the
upsurge
of
transmission
to
reintroduce
these
measures.
E
We
also
looked
beyond
scotland's
borders
when
modeling
our
work
and
taking
on
evidence.
A
review
of
international
experience
following
the
first
wave
showed
us
that
countries
which
implemented
non-pharmaceutical
interventions
earlier
had
lower
levels
of
hospitalizations
and
death
than
those
which
delayed
the
shape
of
the
epidemic
curve
in
scotland
has
followed
a
similar
trajectory
to
that
of
france.
With
a
lag
of
about
four
weeks.
Trans
is
now
experiencing
an
increase
in
hospital
and
icu
admissions,
a
position
which
we
want
to
avoid.
As
far
as
we
can.
E
E
Our
previous
experience
of
the
virus
has
shown
that
it
can
spread
very
quickly
from
one
person
to
a
much
larger
number
over
a
very
short
period
of
time.
That
is
why
we
took
the
decision
to
apply
the
restrictions
at
a
national
level,
rather
than
take
a
regionalised
approach
for
communities
and
local
authorities
in
scotland's
highlands
and
islands.
This
decision
was
understandably
met
with
questions.
E
I
understand
their
frustration
and
their
questions
at
this
approach
and
their
desire
to
protect
local
businesses.
However,
for
those
island
communities,
despite
the
natural
barrier
to
transmission,
there
have
still
been
cases
of
infections
following
the
initial
lockdown
period
that
we
had
earlier
in
the
year.
E
Special
exceptions
based
on
geographical
location
would
need
to
come
with
and
be
balanced
with
travel
restrictions
in
this
instance
doing
from
the
islands,
both
the
house
with
health
risk
and
the
challenges
posed
by
lockdown
to
the
economy
and
local
businesses
of
those
communities.
Where
carefully
considered
and
on
balance,
we
decided
to
implement
national
measures
applicable
to
every
part
of
scotland
as
a
cabinet
secretary
for
health
and
sport,
my
priority
is
to
protect
and
improve
the
health
and
well-being
of
the
people
of
scotland,
supported
by
clinical
advice.
E
A
D
D
D
It
is
more
the
raising
of
the
possibility
that
if
the
pandemic
continues
to
grow
at
an
accelerating
rate
in
the
period
going
forward,
there
may
be
a
necessity
to
take
some
form
of
what
I
would
describe
as
interruptive
action
to
try
to
slow,
further
and
more
aggressively
the
development
of
the
pandemic
that
no
decisions
have
been
taken.
For
that
to
be
the
case,
the
suggestion
has
been
made.
D
The
elements
and
the
circumstances
are
being
explored,
but
it
would
be
dependent
on.
I
think,
two
fundamental
elements
being
made
more
certain
one
was
whether
there
was
a
necessity
for
such
an
interruptive
action
of
that
type
and,
secondly,
some
detailed
work
which
is
being
considered
on
what
that
might
involve.
But
I
stress,
no
decisions
have
been
taken
to
that
effect,
but
the
purpose
of
it
would
be
to
be
more
to
take
a
more
aggressive
interruption
of
the
development
of
the
pandemic.
If
that
was
judged
to
be
necessary
closer
to
the
time.
E
F
E
The
other
point
I
wanted
to
make
in
terms
of
your
your
very
correct
point
about
compliance,
compliance
with
rest
on
trust,
on
people,
trusting
what
we
are
saying
and
the
basis
on
which
we
are
saying
it,
and
that
we
are
saying
that
clearly,
we
conduct
consistent
checks
with
the
public
in
terms
of
how
well
they
understand
what
we're
seeing
how
well
they
are
implementing
that.
What
their
level
of
implementation
is.
E
Then
we
can
modify
our
our
public
information
campaigns
in
order
to
target
where
there
may
be
gaps,
and
we
do
that
again,
persistently
and
consistently
and
and
as
we
just
as
we
learn
more
and
more
about
this
violet
virus
over
time,
we
learn
more
and
more
about
how
to
keep
the
public
informed
and
keep
them
with
us
and
in
that
regard,
we're
particularly
aided
by
professor
stephen
riker,
who
is
from
san
andreas
university.
As
you
know,
and
a
member
of
our
cmo
advisory
group.
D
The
government
does
have
that
issue
very
firmly
in
view,
and
christmas
is
an
incredibly
special
time
for
families
the
length
and
breadth
of
the
country,
and
we
would
want
to
minimize
any
impact
and
effect
on
individuals
and
families
being
able
to
to
to
gather
together
around
christmas
time.
But,
of
course,
we
are
living
in
very
very
unusual
times
with
the
extent
of
the
pandemic
and
the
threat
that
it
poses
to
the
population.
D
In
relation
specifically
to
students,
we
have
obviously
gone
through
a
process
of
of
supporting
students
as
they
embark
on
the
start
of
the
academic
year,
and
a
large
number
of
students
have
moved
into
student
accommodation.
We
obviously
have
some
challenging
outbreaks
in
different
parts
of
the
country
that
are
being
managed
and
support
is
being
provided
to
students
and
the
higher
education
minister.
D
And
that
forms
a
central
feature
of
the
steps
that
we're
taking
with
universities
to
make
sure
that
students
can
participate
in
the
christmas
break
in
the
fashion
that
they
would
ordinarily
be
able
to
do
so
and
would
want
to
do
so.
And
obviously
we
had
some
thinking
yesterday
from
the
united
kingdom
government
on
this
question
and
we
are
working
closely
with
the
united
kingdom
government
on
many
aspects
of
these
questions.
E
So,
thank
you
very
much
convener.
I
I
will
say
a
few
words
and
then
jason
will
be
able
to
give
a
more
detailed
response.
I
think,
overall
we
are
seeing
in
terms
of
the
non-student
related
cases
in
greater
glasgow
and
clyde
and
of
course
we
have
to
be
clear
that
that
has
added
to
the
number
that
the
health
board
and
the
local
health
protection
team,
and
indeed
test
and
protect,
are
dealing
with.
What
we
were
seeing
was
what
what
was
described
as
a
blunting
of
the
number
of
cases.
E
So
we
we
had
not
got
quite
to
the
point
where
we
started
to
see
it
dip,
but
we
were
seeing
the
rise
being
blunted
now.
I
think
it's
probably
appropriate
at
this
point
that,
as
a
lay
person,
I
asked
jason
to
come
in
and
explain
exactly
what
blunting
looks
like
and
and
where
he
thinks
we
are
now
with
those
restrictions.
F
Hey
thank
you
cabinet,
secretary
and
convener.
It's
a
it's
a
tricky
question
to
be
honest
to
answer
definitively
yet,
partly
because
of
the
mixed
picture.
We
now
have
in
light
of
the
outbreaks
in
a
hand,
education
to
separate
that
young
group
out
and
that's
the
only
really
real
way
you
can
do
it.
You
just
have
to
take
the
age
group
which
isn't
definitive.
They
may
not
all
be
students,
some
of
them
may
be
in
workplaces.
F
You
have
to
take
them
out
and
look
at
it,
and
the
national
imt
has
done
that
to
the
best
of
its
ability
and
continues
to
do
it,
and
their
position
remains
two
things
one.
The
acceleration
is
slowing,
but
the
numbers
aren't
tipping
over,
so
we're
not
seeing
a
reduction
in
the
r
number.
Yet.
The
other
thing
they
have
said
is
they
think
the
restrictions
are
appropriate.
So
that's
a
public
health
position,
that's
not
a
decision!
F
That's
the
public
health
advice
from
those
local
teams
and
those
seven
local
authorities
have
suggested
that
that
position
remains
the
appropriate
position
for
that
population,
and
you
can
then
see
us
take
most
of
those
restrictions
and
apply
them
nationally.
Using
the
advice
of
the
national
advisors,
so
we
are
hopeful,
but
we
are.
We
can't
give
you
a
definitive
answer.
The
only
other
thing
I
would
add
is:
I
am
not
surprised
four
weeks.
Unfortunately,
for
this
virus
is
not
long
enough
if
it
were
norovirus
with
a
12-hour
incubation
period.
I
would
know
already.
F
Three
incubation
periods
could
be
six
weeks
and
if
you
look
at
spanish
data
or
french
data,
you
begin
to
see
the
move
through
the
population
in
incubation
period,
chunks
and
no
matter
what
we
do
with
population
interventions,
there's
nothing.
We
can
do
about
the
incubation
period
of
this
particular
nasty
virus.
F
Do
we
have
to
do
what
we
think
is
appropriate
for,
unfortunately,
a
longer
period
of
time
than
the
population
would
like,
of
course,
and
it
goes
to
one
of
your
questions
earlier
convenient
when
you
asked
about
pace
of
decision
making,
and
it's
the
it's
the
only
bit
that
I
can't
guarantee
you
we
won't
have
to
do.
I
can
guarantee
you
we'll,
try
and
be
clear
and
we'll
try
and
be
consistent,
but
I
can't
guarantee
you.
We
won't
have
to
be
quick.
A
G
Thank
you
good
morning.
Everyone
can.
I
return
back
to
the
issue
of
breaker
lockdown.
Take
from
the
answer
here
that
everything
is
under
review,
so
nothing
is
ruled
out,
but
can
I
ask
just
for
some
clarity?
Is
the
circuit
breaker
proposition
under
active
consideration
and
perhaps
deputy
first
minute
addresses?
Would
it
be
and
you're
necessary
for
schools,
colleges
and
universities
to
be
closed
down
for
it
to
be
effective,
and
perhaps
the
officials
could
say
a
bit
more
about
what
exactly
would
sorry
necessitate
and
trigger
such
a
a
an
intervention?
D
No
decisions
have
been
taken
to
take
such
a
step,
nor
have
we
had
advice
so
far
that
says
it
will
be.
Such
a
move
would
be
required
in
relation
to
schools.
Frankly,
the
last
thing
I
want
to
do
is
to
have
to
close
schools
and
we've
gone
to
a
great
deal
of
effort
in
with
the
support
of
staff
and
local
authorities,
parents
and
pupils
to
reopen
our
schools
generally.
That
process
has
gone
well.
Attendance
is
high
and
there
is
very
little
evidence
of
in-school
transmission
and
of
the
virus.
D
It's
it's
minuscule
evidence
of
in-school
transmission
of
the
virus,
and
so
I
want
to
make
sure
that
we
are
able
to
sustain
a
full-time
education
for
children
and
young
people
and,
to
the
greatest
extent
possible,
and
so
obviously,
in
october,
as
more
clients
will
know,
there
are
planned
school
holidays.
They
vary
to
an
extent
from
a
week
in
most
parts
of
the
country
to
the
two
week,
tatty
holidays.
D
That
will
start
here
on
friday
in
persia
and
angus
and
dundee
and
straight
to
maybe
10
days
and
some
other
local
authority
areas,
and
that
will
be
over
a
three
week
period
starting
this
friday,
so
the
schools
will
be
off
for
their
normal
holidays
and
and
obviously
you
know
those
go
ahead
as
planned,
and
I
think
it's
really
important
that
we
have
that
break
in
the
in
the
school
period.
It's
what
staff
and
pupils
are
entitled
to
him.
We
should
see
that
take
its
course
now.
D
Obviously,
the
the
question
of
what
would
be
the
composition
of
a
circuit
breaker
is
a
question
to
which
I
can't
give
an
answer
today,
because
there
have
been
no
decisions
taken
on
that
question,
but
I
think
the
general
thinking
behind
it
is
that
it
would
represent
an
opportunity
for
us
to
essentially
blow
down
connection
between
individuals
within
our
society.
Now
we've
already
taken
steps.
F
Thanks
david
first
minister
and
a
deputy
convener
as
we
learn
more
about
this
virus
globally,
different
ideas
arise.
So
it's
hard
to
understand
how
quickly
we
are
having
to
learn.
No,
nobody
has
ever
done
this
before
I
I'd
and
it's
important
people
don't
underestimate
the
challenge
that
the
advice
is
never
mind.
The
decision
making
so
not
only
is
the
deputy
first
minister
correct
and
that
there's
no
decision
about
a
circuit
breaker.
There
is
no
advice
yet
definitively
about
a
circuit
breaker,
pretty
much
anywhere
in
the
world.
F
Let's
go
back
to
what
this
idea
is,
and
this
idea
comes
from
other
countries
and
other
countries
are
considering
it.
If
you
have
an
r
number
that
is
somewhat
over
one,
probably
not
too
high,
actually,
probably
just
over
one.
Could
you
put
in
place
something
like
a
stay-at-home
order
for
two
to
three
weeks
that
would
buy
you
time
for
the
pandemic
to
slow
to
decelerate
into
the
winter.
F
Then
you
could
go
back
to
wherever
you
were
in
your
country's
root
map
or
your
journey
out
of
this
virus,
and
you
would
have
bought
yourself
a
period
of
time
to
allow
you
to
get
through
what
will
be
a
harder
winter
period.
Nobody
has
ever
done
a
circuit
breaker.
Nobody
has
lived
through
a
circuit
breaker,
it's
modeling.
That
suggests,
if
you
do
it,
for
example,
for
14
days
and
most
of
the
models
are
a
fairly
extreme
version,
so
they
are
stay
at
home
unless
you
have
to
essentially
move
with
or
without
school.
F
So
the
deputy
first
minister
is
correct.
People
model
that
with
schools
open
with
schools
closed
some
countries
model
it
with
hospitality,
open
with
hospitality,
closed
all
of
those
things.
Those
variables
have
to
be
taken
into
account.
You
might,
for
example,
buy
yourself
28
days
of
lower
risk
in
your
pandemic.
F
F
F
So
you
should
do
two
weeks
open
for
a
period
two
weeks
again,
but
that
has
implications
for
economy
implications
for
society
implications
for
schools
that
have
just
been
illustrated.
So
it's
a
very,
very
difficult
balance
about
whether
we
think
this
new
iconic
measure
would
be
something
we
would
recommend
for
scotland,
and
then
the
decision
makers,
mr
swinney
and
miss
freeman
would
then
have
to
actually
decide
whether
to
do
it
or
not
it.
It
is
not
the
whole
answer,
but
it
may
be
part
of
an.
G
Answer,
thank
you,
professor
bleach.
Can
I
just
piss
a
little
bit
more
about
what
the
the
triggers
might
be.
You
mentioned
they
are
numbered.
So
when
the
modelers
do
the
different
scenario
plan
and
what
will
be
taken
and
take
out,
will
it
be
a
big
spike
in
cases
you
know
a
big
increase
in
people
going
to
hospital,
more
people
dying
from
the
virus?
G
You
know
what
what
is
this
a
package
of
triggers
that
will
be
looked
at
and
when
it
starts
to
feel
like
it's
getting
out
of
control
and
clearly
we're
not
at
that
point
yet,
but
you
know
could
that
be
in
two
weeks
time?
So
I'm
just
wondering
what
would
the
thing
that
would
tip
it
over
to
make
this
feel
like
it
had
to
be
triggered.
F
Predictably,
there
isn't
a
single
trigger
there.
There
is
a
an
assessment
of
the
state
of
the
pandemic
across
the
whole
of
the
uk,
in
fact,
and
across
scotland,
that
would
be
made
by
a
number
of
advisory
groups
from
the
joint
biosecurity
center
to
the
stage
group
to
scotland's
versions
of
them
to
the
individual
advisors
like
me
and
gregor
and
fiona
the
chief
nurse
and
then
into
our
command
structure,
if
you'll
forgive
the
expression
to
the
cabinet
center
for
health
and
others,
but
the
list
is
not
dissimilar
to
the
list.
F
You
just
gave
the
r
number,
the
prevalence
rate,
the
number
of
outbreaks,
the
ability
for
test
to
protect
to
manage
those
outbreaks.
The
overall
number
of
cases,
the
positivity
rate,
a
circuit
breaker,
though
it's
important
a
circuit
breaker,
is
not
something
you
would
do
when
the
pandemic
gets
out
of
control.
If
the
pandemic
gets
out
of
control,
the
advice
will
be
national
measures
to
restrict
movement,
to
restrict
engagement
between
households
that
that
will
be
the
public
health
advice.
If
we
get
out
of
control,
we're
not
out
of
control,
but
we
are
accelerating.
F
So
it's
a
very
important
distinction.
Just
now.
We
are
relying
on
human
behavior
and
test
and
protect
if
those
two
things
can
manage
the
acceleration
and
tip
us
over
and
get
us
back
to
reducing
numbers,
then
more
national
measures
won't
be
required.
We
are
not
sure,
just
as
no
country
is
sure.
If
that
is
the
case.
So
could
you
if
your
r
number
is
1.3
1.4?
G
That
is
very
helpful.
Professor
leech,
I
just
come
back
to
the
deputy
first
minister
and
with
that
in
mind
about
a
possible
interruptive
action,
I
think
about
a
week
ago
the
first
minister
had
said
that
if
she
had
more
levers,
more
borrowing
powers
and
she
might
wish
to
go
further
with
the
curfew
and
hospitality
and
maybe
maybe
close
the
pubs
entirely.
G
D
Throughout
our
discussions
on
the
pandemic
convener,
we
have
taken
an
approach
which
has
sought
to
address
the
four
harms
that
we
identified
in
the
root
map
and
the
framework
back
in
in
may,
and,
of
course
within
that
framework,
is
the
whole
question
of
economic
harm
to
individuals
and
businesses.
So
we
take
a
set.
We
make
an
assessment
based
on
what
is
possible
and
practical
to
do
to
make
the
greatest
impact
on
all
four
of
those
harms
now.
D
Clearly,
if
we
face
a
situation
where
the
prevalence
of
covert
is
to
such
an
extent,
if
it's,
if
it's
accelerating
to
such
an
extent-
and
there
will
be
frankly
little
debate
about
what
needs
to
be
done,
we
will
just
have
to
address
those
circumstances
if
the
rate
of
the
virus
spreading
grows
too
fast.
So
the
the
decision
making
becomes
far-
and
you
know
far
sharper
frankly
and
when
that
prevalence
becomes
higher,
so
that
there's
so
the
question
of
financial
support
is
an
important
element
of
what
we
are
able
to
do.
D
And
if,
for
example,
we
had
more
financial
flexibility,
we
could
take
more
moves
which
might
get
the
r
rate
down
to
a
greater
extent
in
a
shorter
period
of
time.
But
we
have
to
be.
We
have
to
take
account
of
the
fact
that
if
we
did
that
those
measures
without
financial
support
for
businesses,
we
might
create
more
economic
harm
to
individuals,
and
we
need
to
balance
that
against
the
the
prevalence
of
covert
in
that
decision-making
process.
D
So
undoubtedly
having
more
financial
flexibility
would
enable
us
to
exercise
more
more
choice
and
more
judgments.
But
I
would
want
to
reassure
the
committee
that
if
we
see
the
prevalence
of
covert
moving
to
such
an
extent
that
we
have
to
take
action,
we
will
take
action
to
ensure
that
the
population
is
protected
from
the
growing
prevalence
of
covert.
B
Thank
you.
Convener
first
question
is
to
the
cabinet
secretary
for
health
yesterday
was
announced.
There
was
to
be
an
additional
1.1
billion
pounds
for
the
nhs
boards
and
the
local
health
and
social
care
partnerships,
and
the
candidate
sector
provides
some
information.
Please,
regarding
how
this
money
is
to
be
invested
and
spent,
and
is
that
a
particular
narrative
for
this
to
help
with
the
re-mobilization
of
the
nhs
services.
E
Thanks
very
much,
the
1.1
billion
has
been
calculated
on
the
basis
of
the
two
things.
First
of
all,
each
individual
health
board's
quarter,
one
expenditure,
additional
expenditure
on
measures
necessary
to
respond
to
the
pandemic
and
health
and
social
care
partnerships
evidenced
additional
expenditure
for
the
same
purpose,
but
we
have
also
then
built
into
that
in
consultation
with
the
health
and
social
care
partnerships
chief
finance
officers
and
with
board
chief
execs
a
forward
projection
about
the
coming
months
and
included
in
that
is
a
additional
resource
to
help
re-mobilize
the
nhs.
E
Bearing
in
mind
that
we
have
two
other
significant
asks
of
our
health
boards.
First
of
all,
to
support
the
nhs
test
and
protect
program,
and
secondly,
they
are
the
lead
organizations
in
the
delivery
of
the
expanded
flu
programme.
So
all
of
those
factors
are
in
play
in
all
of
this.
The
way
in
which
the
the
resource
will
be
discussed
is
relatively
new.
E
So
where
there
has
been
expenditure
beyond
what
their
interact
formula
would
give
them
of
that
1.1
billion,
then
that
will
be
met
as
well
and
in
terms
of
health
and
social
care
partnerships
it
paid
against
actual
expenditure
with
again
that
assurance
for
the
coming
months.
I
also
at
the
same
point
as
I'm.
I'm
sure
you
know
said
that
we
would
return
to
this
in
january
and
look
to
make
a
further
allocation
at
that
point.
B
B
Also,
this
there
has
been
an
approach
that
appears
that
the
the
larger
hospitals
seem
to
have
potentially
more
services
and
which
I
think
is
fully
understandable
because
of
the
additional
capacity
that
they
will
have.
But
is
there
an
expectation
with
the
re-mobilization
to
have
more
services
being
rolled
out
across
the
smaller
hospital
estate
across
the.
E
Country,
so
I
I
want
to
make
two
points.
I
think,
in
response
to
that,
our
larger
hospitals
don't
have
more
services,
just
because
they've
got
more
capacity,
I.e,
they're,
larger
and
many.
This
is
clinically
driven
so
where
we
have
the
need
for
a
service
that,
in
terms
of
the
volume
in
a
particular
population
area,
would
not
be
as
clinically
viable
as
it
would
be.
If
you
multiplied
it
by
the
demand
in
three
different
population
areas,
for
example,
then
you
will
get
clinically
better
outcomes
by
dealing
with
those
three
population
groups
in
one
location.
E
If
we
also
look
at
something
like
orthopedics,
for
example,
this
is
a
essential
one
of
the
central
tenets
behind
the
elective
center
program
and
approach.
Is
that
being
able
to
do
high
volume
procedures
and
produce
both
better
outcomes
for
patients,
but
also
significant
improvements
to
the
procedures
themselves
in
terms
of
what
clinicians
are
learning
and
doing,
but
also
and
in
terms
of
time,
spent
in
hospital
pain,
relief
and
a
whole
range
of
other
measures
that
come
from
that
higher
volume
throughput?
E
And
so
there
are
two
rationales
if
you
like,
for
why
we
would
cohort
some
services
into
larger
hospitals,
and
that
said,
one
of
the
major
requirements
in
the
re-mobilization
plans
I
have
commissioned
boards
to
undertake
is
to
secure
a
significant
focus
on
primary
and
community-based
healthcare,
and
that
is
the.
It
reinforces
the
approach
that
has
been
there
for
some
time
about
shifting
the
balance
of
care.
E
B
E
That
includes
looking
at
whether
or
not
that
time
for
necessary
cleaning
and
so
on
to
ensure
patient
and
staff
safety
can,
in
any
respect,
be
reduced,
but
still
remain
as
safe
as
well
as
looking
actively
to
see
if
we
can
bring
in
more
quickly
the
full
range
of
nhs
services.
So
he
has
that
work
currently
underway,
and
I
would
hope
that
we
would
be
able
to
reach
a
conclusion
on
both
of
those
very
shortly.
D
The
guidance
that
the
government
made
available
and
made
clear
that
we
envisaged
an
approach
of
blended
learning
being
undertaken,
so
there
would
be
elements
of
face-to-face
teaching,
there
would
be
elements
of
online
learning
and
universities
would
be,
and
colleges
would
be
exercising
judgments
about
the
the
the
number
and
the
volume
of
individuals
they
could
have
on
campus,
based
on
taking
the
range
of
mitigating
actions
that
are
set
out
within
the
guidance.
That's
been.
C
Published
well,
I
thank
you
for
that
response,
but
I
mean
in
terms
of
the
actual
nature
of
blended
learning
and
the
numbers
of
people
who
are
on
campus
at
the
moment,
we're
still
seeing
concerns.
I
mean
you
know
john
you'll,
be
aware
of
the
concerns
from
staff
at
perth
college
about
a
resumption
in
face-to-face
teaching
and
attendance
on
campus.
C
You
may
also
be
aware
of
the
situation
at
saint
andrews,
where
there
is
now
continuing
disagreement
between
staff
unions
and
management
about
a
phased
reintroduction
of
face-to-face
teaching
there.
Now,
when
I,
when
I
raised
this
cons,
the
first
minister
back
in
august,
she
said
that
staff
should
not
be
put
under
pressure.
C
Do
things
that
we
would
not
advise.
So
what?
What?
What
is
that
ultimate
advice
from
the
government
is
the
advice
still
that,
where
possible,
the
default
should
be
working
from
home,
because
what
I'm
seeing
is
a
resumption
face-to-face
teaching
and,
of
course,
our
campuses
at
the
moment
are
full
of
young
people.
D
The
guidance
envisaged
that
there
would
be
an
approach
to
blended
learning,
which
I
set
out
in
my
earlier
answer,
and
that
obviously
involves
an
amount
of
face-to-face
learning.
But
I
think
it
would
be.
You
know
my
assessment
of
it
would
be
that
that
face-to-face
learning
is
being
kept
at
a
limited
level,
and
I
think
that
would
be
the
appropriate
step
to
take
consistent
with
the
guidance
that
the
government
has
issued.
D
If
there
is
a
good,
positive
partnership
approach
to
the
resumption
of
activity
where
the
concerns
of
members
of
staff
are
taken
into
account
and
where
these
are
reflected
in
the
approaches
are
taken.
I
think
it's
really
also
important
that
I
stress
the
fact
that
the
guidance
that's
been
put
in
place
involves
a
series
of
mitigating
actions,
and
it
is
really
important
that
those
mitigations
are
followed
to
make
sure
that
we
are
creating
a
safe
environment
for
everybody
that
is
involved
now.
D
The
teaching
environment
in
our
universities
and
colleges
will
be
very,
very
different
to
what
it
was
pre-covered
and
there
is
no
resumption
of,
and
can
be,
no
resumption
of
the
large-scale
lecturing
environments
that
have
been
the
case
in
the
past.
We
simply
cannot
have
that
many
people
together
in
the
same
place
at
the
same
time,
so
the
guidance
envisages,
for
example,
much
smaller
limits
on
the
number
of
individuals
that
can
be
educated
together
with
very
strict,
mitigating
fractures
and
factors
necessary
to
be
in
place
if
such
teaching
is
to
take
place.
C
C
A
number
of
universities
are
now
looking
at
this
and
potentially
looking
at
implementing
a
similar
regime.
Is
that
something
we're
looking
at
in
scotland?
Is
there
a
danger
that
we
get
left
behind?
Should
we
not
be
focusing
on
really
testing
people
who
are
asymptomatic,
where
we
can
do
that
and
where
people
are
at
higher
risk
of
infection.
D
So
we've
seen
the
expansion
in
st
andrews
in
glasgow
and
we
saw
it
in
edinburgh.
It's
now.
A
few
days
will
emerge
in
aberdeen
and
also
in
stirling,
and
there
will
be
further
rollout
beyond
that.
So
the
availability
of
testing
capacity
has
been
an
important
priority,
but-
and
I
I
want
to
hand
over
to
the
health
secretary
or
professor
leach,
to
give
some
further
detail
on
the
efficacy
of
asymptomatic
testing.
E
We
do
use
testing
in
one
specific
case
in
terms
of
asymptomatic
individuals,
and
that
is
our
weekly
care
home
staff
testing
program,
which
tests
on
an
average
of
around
37
000
staff
every
week,
and
that
is
there
to
prevent
the
introduction
of
the
virus
into
care
homes
where
we
have
our
most
vulnerable
citizens
vulnerable
in
terms
of
the
harm
that
the
virus
can
do
to
them
in
making
them
seriously
ill
and
indeed
making
them
more
likely
to
die
as
a
consequence
of
it.
And
the
first
man
is.
E
The
deputy
first
minister
has
also
said
quite
rightly,
that
we
have
introduced
the
walk-in
centers
and,
as
he
said,
we
have
some
andrews
glasgow.
Aberdeen
edinburgh
stilling
opens
on
monday,
and
the
second
glasgow
centre
opens
this
friday.
We
then
move
to
dundee,
and
then
we
pick
up
other
parts
of
the
country
that
are
less
about
concentration
of
the
student
population,
but
are
more
about
making
a
testing
resource
sampling,
resource
more
accessible.
So
looking,
for
example,
at
inverclyde,
as
well
as
parts
of
the
highlands
and
western
partnership.
E
E
Our
care
home
staff
testing
from
processing
through
the
lighthouse
lab
and
therefore
subject
to
any
reduction
in
processing
capacity
for
those
tests
taken
in
scotland
as
a
consequence
of
surge
in
demand
for
the
uk
as
a
whole
and
ensuring
and
protecting
the
processing
of
those
samples
for
care
homes.
And
as
we
expand
the
capacity
to
process
tests
in
scotland
through
the
nhs
further.
E
F
Thanks
thanks
both
and
thanks
thanks
for
your
question,
mr
ruskal,
I
don't
know
the
cambridge
story
specifically,
so
we
should
look
into
that
and
see
exactly
what
they're
doing.
I
imagine
I'm
I'm
guessing
they're,
also
introducing
considerable
travel
restrictions
on
that
population,
so
cambridge
tends
to
live
in
campuses
behind
gates,
though
asymptomatic
testing
in
bubbles
makes
more
sense
than
asymptomatic
testing
outside
bubbles
where
people
are
still
engaging
in
society,
though
elite
sport
does
asymptomatic
testing
inside
bubbles,
but
you're
not
allowed
to
leave
the
bubble.
You're
not
allowed
to
go
to
the
chemist.
F
F
So
there
are
extensive
limitations
to
the
present
version
of
testing.
Now,
one
of
the
ways
out
of
this
pandemic
is
a
different
form
of
testing
that
would
be
quicker.
That
would
be
more
reliable
that
you
could
roll
out
at
a
population
level
in
palestine
and
israel,
and
in
scotland
you
could.
You
could
use
it
all
over
the
world
that
that
is
not
with
us
just
now.
So
asymptomatic
testing
has
a
role
and
we
seek
advice
on
how
we
should
use
it
from
virologists
from
the
advice,
scientific
advisory
groups,
from
the
education
advisory
group
from
sage.
F
F
We
then
give
advice
about
choices
and
that's
laid
out
in
the
testing
strategy
that
you've
seen
us
publish
a
number
of
times
most
recently
just
a
few
weeks
ago
about
what
we
think
those
priorities
should
be.
Having
said
all
of
that,
we
keep
that
under
constant
review.
So
if
there
is
learning
from
cambridge
or
from
duke
in
north
carolina,
who
are
doing
a
similar
program
which
we're
watching
and
paying
attention
to,
if
there
is
learning
from
that
that
influences
those
decisions,
of
course,
we
will
think
about
them
and
of
course
we
will
advise
appropriately.
C
Just
perhaps
convenience
coming
with
with
one
last
question,
I
think
those
are
very
useful
responses.
I
mean
there
clearly
are
some
universities
in
scotland
that
are
that
that
have
more
of
a
sort
of
a
bubble
around
them
than
others,
and
particularly
if
they're
like
sterling
university,
for
example,
a
campus
away
from
town.
So
anything
the
government
can
do
to
look
at
rolling
out.
F
F
So
so,
as
you
get
smaller
and
quicker
tests,
paste
gets
slightly
less
reliable.
Do
you
would
tend
to
use
it,
for
instance,
at
a
population
level
where
you're
not
making
individual
decisions
about
treatment,
you're,
making
decisions
about
population
restrictions,
for
example?
That
may
well
come
quicker
than
being
able
to
test
at
home
and
give
yourself
a
red
or
a
green,
and
let
you
know
whether
you
can
go
to
work
that
day.
That
is
a
long
way
off.
Despite
what
you
read
in
some
journals
and
some
media,
we
are
already
testing
faster
tests.
F
We
already
have
some
machines
which
we're
assessing
we're,
giving
them
to
our
laboratories.
We,
we
can
do
things
like
to
test
the
pcr
test,
the
normal
test.
So
let
that
proceed
as
normal
and
take
that
same
sample
and
use
it
in
one
of
the
new
machines
to
see
if
we
can
get
the
same
results
as
the
as
the
drug
companies
or
the
manufacturers
suggest
you
can
get
using
their
machines.
So
that
is
ongoing,
that
that
happens
all
the
time
with
tuberculosis
testing
or
sexually
transmitted
disease
testing
or
whatever.
So
we're
we're
doing
that.
F
F
Let's
remember
in,
amongst
all
the
asymptomatic
testing
of
students
in,
amongst
all
the
talk
of
care,
home
testing
for
staff,
the
most
important
people
are
the
people
who
have
the
disease
and
everything
that
we
can
do
to
help
them
should
be
our
number
one
priority.
Then
we
should,
of
course,
stop
people
getting
the
disease,
which
is
the
next
thing.
You
would
use
testing
for.
F
A
Thanks
mark
just
today
to
to
everyone
we're
this
evidence
session
has
taken
slightly
longer
than
expected,
and
I
hope
it's
all
right
with
both
colleagues
and
our
witnesses
if
we
drift
on
beyond
11
30,
and
if
it's
not
all
right,
if
anyone
has
an
issue
with
that,
please
could
they
either
let
the
clerks
know
or
type
it
into
the
into
the
events
chat.
But
but
I
don't
want
to
go
too
fast
for
the
members
yet
to
ask
questions.
H
Thanks
convener
good
morning,
everyone
I
want
to
to
turn
to
the
health
harms
identified
in
the
root
map
and
it's
specifically
around
the
recent
public
health
scotland
figures
that
have
come
out
that
are
showing
that
cancer
referrals
have
dropped
by
a
fifth
in
the
three
months
after
lockdown
compared
to
the
same
time
last
year.
So
it's
really
to
ask
the
cabinet
secretary
for
health
and
whether
she
could
provide
an
update
on
the
re-mobilization
of
cancer
screening
services
in
order
to
try
and
reduce
that
health
harm.
E
Thank
you
very
much.
Of
course,
one
of
the
statistics
that
we
published
yesterday
is
the
96
meeting
by
our
boards
of
the
31
day
target
and
which
has
been
consistent
throughout
the
pandemic
and
and
deserves
a
mention
because
it
it
signifies
significant
work
on
the
part
of
the
boards
and
all
those
clinicians
involved,
to
continue
to
be
able
to
do
that.
Whilst
they
are
facing
other
challenges
and
the
screening
programs,
I
don't
have
the
exact
dates
in
front
of
me.
E
E
So
I
I
can
certainly
answer
from
the
point
of
view
of
of
health
ministers
and
dfn
may
want
to
say
something
further
about
other
engagement
with
the
uk
government.
There.
There
are
relatively
regular
meetings
between
the
health
ministers
in
northern
ireland,
wales,
myself
and
the
secretary
of
state
for
health.
Roughly
it
was
weekly
every
10
days
every
fortnight,
as
well
as
obviously
a
constant
engagement
between
our
officials.
E
Those
meetings
tend
to
involve
just
the
four
of
us,
with
perhaps
one
or
two
officials
in
attendance
and
we're
we're
looking
at
sharing
experiences
and
ideas,
as
well
as
tackling
particular
problems.
One
specific
example
that
may
be
helpful
is
it
was
very
helpful
that
I
was
able
to
speak
to
my
counterpart
von
giffen,
the
health
minister
in
wales,
about
their
experience
with
the
two
sisters
outbreak
that
they
had
before.
D
The
wider
government
engagement,
I
think,
it'd
be
fair
to
say
that
it
varies
a
bit
in
different
parts
of
government.
I
think
at
in
a
number
of
portfolio
areas.
There's
the
the
there's
a
good
amount
of
dialogue
and
discussion,
and
the
health
system
just
talked
about
her
dialogue
in
the
health
service.
D
I
think
the
and
under
the
under
the
other
other
ongoing
engagements
that
take
place.
I
think
the
the
area
where
we
have
expressed
concerns
has
been
the
rather
significant
absence
of
cobra
discussions,
which
thankfully,
was
resolved
and
remedied
in
recent
days,
but
I
would
say
we
attach
a
high
importance
to
dialogue
with
our
counterparts
in
the
other
developed
administrations
and
the
uk
government
and
participate
wherever
that
is
possible
to
do
so.
H
Thank
you
for
that.
It
just
finally
deputy
first
minister.
Just
I
wonder
if,
if
I
could
just
ask
you
to
give
a
couple
of
pieces
of
information
over
an
announcement
made
today
a
very
welcome
announcement
about
the
new
financial
support
package
for
people
who
are
on
low
incomes
and
they're
having
to
self-isolate
and
who
would
otherwise
lose
income.
And
and
as
I
understand
that
the
500
pound
support
grants
would
be
paid
through
the
scottish
welfare
fund
through
local
authorities,
beginning
on
the
12th
of
october,
which
again
is
very
welcome.
H
And
it's
just
to
ask
whether
there'll
be
further
guidance
provided
for
the
use
of
that
and
making
sure
that
the
demand
is
is
monitored,
but
also
what
works
going
to
be
undertaken
with
employers
to
try
and
improve
some
of
the
employment
working
practices.
That
perhaps
has
led
to
the
the
the
very
welcome
grant
having
to
be
established.
In
the
first
place.
D
And
we
certainly
don't
want
to
have
a
situation
where
people
feel
they
are
unable
to
self-isolate,
which
is
a
crucial,
is
the
building
block
of
our
strategy
for
interrupting
covert,
because
they
feel
that
they
are
financially
weak
and
are
quite
literally
financially
unable
to
do
so.
So
those
provisions
will
be
put
in
place
and
we
are
working
at
pace
to
make
sure
they
can
be
delivered
in
the
earliest
course,
because
it
is
a
crucial
intervention,
we're
obviously
working
with
employers
to
make
sure
that
employment
is
made
as
sustainable
as
possible.
D
A
I
Yeah
thanks
computer.
No,
I
have
no
interest
to
declare
and
and
thanks
for
giving
me
the
opportunity
to
be
on
the
committee
this
morning
and
the
scottish
government
changed
guidance
for
students
just
days
before
the
start
of
term
and
then
chopped
and
changed
after
students
had
already
returned
to
university.
I
I'm
sure
the
ministers
understand
that
this
has
caused
unnecessary
stress
for
many
students,
many
of
whom
have
just
left
home
for
the
first
time.
So
some
universities
are
handing
back
rent
money.
If
a
student
returns
home,
that's
not
available
from
every
university,
so
our
minister's
prepared
to
step
up
and
provide
that
level
of
support.
So
every
student
in
the
country
can
benefit
from
that,
whether
they're
in
private
accommodation
or
other
halls
of
residence.
D
D
Our
core
advice
to
students
is,
if
they're
able
to
do
so
to
stay
in
the
campus
accommodation
to
which
they
have
moved,
and
some
of
them
will
have
moved
to
that
some
time
ago.
Some
of
them
will
have
moved
to
that
accommodation
over
the
summer,
and
so
many
of
these
movements
have
been
made
because
arrangements
were
put
in
place
long
before
the
guidance
that
the
government
has
has
set
out.
I
I
wouldn't
I
would
encourage
the
the
minister
to
look
again
at
this,
because
you
know
universities
have
obviously
in
control
over
all
their
own
halls
of
residence
and
convert
students
to
that
mechanism
in
terms
of
rent.
But
there
are
many
who
are
in
private
accommodation,
and
there
are
many
universities
that
don't
have
the
financial
flexibility
to
be
able
to
offer
this
kind
of
support,
and
this
is
fundamentally
a
problem
caused
by.
I
would
say,
the
the
guidance
that
chuckling
changed
over
the
weekend.
I
And
so
perhaps
the
ministers
could
look
at
that
again.
But
I
do
want
to
move
on
to
the
the
issue
of
asymptomatic
testing
for
students.
That's
already
been
covered,
I'm
frequently
told,
including
by
the
first
minister,
that
they're
concerned
about
resulting
is
about
resulting
behaviors
from
negative
tests,
and
the
assumption
is
that
students
and
others
will
relax
and
ignore
all
the
public
health
guidance
if
they
get
that
negative
based
and
I'm
just
keen
to
understand
where
the
evidence
is
to
justify
that
position.
D
I
think
it
was
an
opening
in
the
marks
about
the
importance
of
listening
to
the
advice
that
we
receive
on
behavioral
science
and
we've
had
tremendous
input
into
the
government's
thinking
from
professor
steve
reicher
from
the
university
of
saint
andrews,
who
has
contributed
significantly
to
our
understanding
of
the
importance
of
of
people
feeling
confident
in
the
requirements
that
are
placed
on
them,
unable
to
play
their
part
in
taking
forward
the
guidance
that
is
set
out
there
and
so
much
of
our
success.
And
I
made
this
point
in
my
own
opening
the
march.
D
So
I
can't
stress
enough
the
importance
that
we
attach
to
ensuring
that
there
is
good
compliance,
good
understanding
of
and
good
compliance
with,
the
guidance
that
has
been
set
out
to
make
sure
that
every
individual
can
play
the
part
in
that
activity.
Now,
on
the
question
of
asymptomatic
testing,
I
think
the
the
the
judgment
that
we've
applied
is
that
essentially
asymptomatic
testing
and
may
create
conditions
in
which
people
feel
that
they
are
not.
They
perhaps
are
not
quite
as
obliged
to
follow
the
guidance
as
ordinarily.
D
We
would
expect
that
to
be
the
case,
and
that
applies
across
the
whole
of
the
population.
So
we
put
out
that
guidance
and
we
feel
we
should
take
that
strong,
apply
that
strong
message
to
enable
individuals
to
see
the
importance
of
making
that
contribution
on
a
daily
basis
to
keep
themselves
and
others
safe.
But
my
colleagues
may
wish
to
add
to
the
remarks
that
I've
made.
E
I
want
to
make
a
couple
of
points,
and
then
we
could
go
to
professor
leach.
If
there's
more
that
he
wants
to
add.
I
think
we
need
to
take
a
a
bit
of
a
step
back
here
and
just
remind
ourselves
about
what
it
is.
We
are
actually
trying
to
do
until
we
have
a
vaccine
that
has
been
clinically
trialled
and
proven
to
work
and
is
rolled
out
across
the
population.
E
So
it
is
valuable
in
care
homes
in
preventing
the
introduction
of
the
virus
from
those
individuals
who
go
in
and
out
of
care
homes
regularly
the
staff,
so
we
use
testing
there
every
single
week
on
individuals
who
do
not
have
symptoms
but
who,
from
time
to
time,
do
prove
to
be
positive,
but
the
proportion
of
those
who
prove
to
be
positive
against
the
overall
numbers
who
are
tested
every
week
is
very
small,
so
testing
of
itself
is
not
enough.
What
in
those
instances
as
well
as
all
those
other
measures
I've
described
in
those
instances?
E
What
those
individuals
need
to
do
is
all
the
work
around
ppe
infection,
infective,
effective
infection
prevention
and
control
and
barrier
nursing.
So
my
point
is
really
to
try
and
help
us
remember
the
place
that
testing
has.
It
is
not
a
silver
bullet
following
that
basic
public
health
advice
and
guidance
is
the
closest
we
have
individually
and
collectively
to
any
kind
of
silver
bullet.
E
F
I
would
I
would
refer
mr
renny
to
the
previous
answer
and
add
one
layer
which
I
think
dfm
and
capsicum
have
touched
on,
and
that
is
there
is
a
behavioral
element
to
testing.
There
isn't
any
question
about
that.
There
is
the
science
and
the
genetics
and
the
bit
I
covered
earlier,
but
there
is
a
perception
in
all
layers
of
society
that,
if
you
are
negative,
you
can
go
about
your
normal
business.
We
we
know
that
so
students
are
not
special,
I'm
not
singling
them
out
in
any
meaningful
way.
F
F
What
should
you
do
in
light
of
your
negative
or
positive
test,
and
that
communication
is
absolutely
crucial?
The
trick
here
is
a
negative
test,
unfortunately,
is
relatively
meaningless
about
your
individual
behavior,
so
you
should
still
do
the
self-isolation.
If
you're
a
contact,
you
should
still
do
the
population
measures
that
we're
all
under,
so
that
that's
the
challenge
around
behavioral
science
as
well
as,
of
course,
the
genetic
science
and
the
pcr
science,
about
what
the
test
actually
tells
you.
I
Convener
one
more
quick
one:
if
that's
okay,
I
I
just
wonder
whether,
with
a
large
proportion
of
those
who
have
got
the
virus,
don't
know
they
have
it
then,
should
we
not
be
using
testing
in
those
cases,
especially
with
young
people
like
students
to
try
and
hunt
down
the
virus
more
and
use
the
testing?
For
that,
I
agree
with
everything
that
the
minister
and
jason
leach
have
said
about.
This
is
not
a
route
to
go
back
to
normal
life
as
it
was
before.
This
is
an
extra
safety
measure.
I
My
argument
would
be
that,
because
this
is
the
biggest
movement
of
people
since
the
start
of
the
lockdown.
We
need
to
take
an
extra
step,
at
least
just
now,
to
try
and
snap
out
the
virus
in
universities
on
top
of
all
those
public
health
measures
that
you've
already
talked
about.
Is
there
not
an
argument
for
that?
I
D
Think
could
I
can.
Let
me
one
comment
on
that.
I
think
the
the.
If
we
look
at
the
number
of
tests
that
are
being
undertaken,
I
would
contend
that
a
lot
of
what
will
rene
suggest
is
actually
happening
because
of
the
degree
to
which
increased
testing
is
taking
place
in
a
number
of
locations,
particularly
with
the
addition.
The
very
welcome
edition
of
the
the
walk-in
centers,
which
have
been
established
in
a
number
of
different
locations
in
close
proximity
to
universities.
D
So
I
think
the
the
improved
availability
and
accessibility
and
volume
of
tests,
I
think,
contributes
significantly
to
addressing
the
point
that
willie
renee
makes.
And
then,
if
we
add
on
to
that,
the
very
strong
message
which
we
are
taking
forward
and
consult
in
concert
with
the
universities
and
crucially
with
the
national
union
of
students
and
with
students
associations,
but
encouraging
the
good
practice
of
following
the
advice.
D
Then
I
think
that
that
should
give
us
some
confidence
that
we
are
taking
the
measures
to
do
exactly
what
willie
rennie
wants
us
to
do,
which
is
to,
and
which
I
want
us
to
do,
which
is
to
ensure
that
we
take
all
possible
steps
to
contain
the
virus
within
those
university
communities
to
eradicate
it
and,
most
importantly,
to
avoid
it
spreading
into
wider
society.
I'd
hope
my
colleagues
want
to
add
to
that.
F
Only
a
single
sentence:
we
we,
we
asked
our
scientific
advisory
groups
that
exact
question
that
mr
rennis
just
asked,
and
the
advice
that
came
back
to
the
deputy
first
minister
was
at
this
stage
of
the
pandemic
at
this
stage
constant
review
and,
of
course
it
will
change
if
cambridge
proves
something
different.
They
said
that
that
was
not
their
advice
at
this
point,
but
we
should
send
in
more
symptomatic
testing,
which
we've
done
around
alberta.
J
When
we
don't
allow
a
person
to
visit
another
person
in
their
house
and
the
hospitality
issue,
the
10
pm
curfew
issue
and,
if
you're
in
a
pub
for
a
few
hours
or
a
restaurant
for
a
few
hours?
Why
is
it
we
think
that
we're
safer?
If
we
leave
at
10
o'clock,
then
had
we
left
it's
11
or
12
o'clock.
So
these
are
questions
john
and
gene.
That
constituents
have
been
asking
me
this
week
and
I
would
be
obliged
if
we
could
try
and
help
to
stay
to
our
thinking
about
why
these
measures
are
necessary.
D
Let
me
go
first
with
them
some
responses,
but
the
essentially
the
the
decisions
that
we've
taken,
particularly
around
household
restrictions,
which
I
I
can
assure
mr
coffee.
We
have
taken
with
great
reluctance-
has
been
driven
essentially
by
the
fact
that
there
has
a
growing
evidence
base
within
the
work
that's
undertaken
by
public
health,
scotland.
D
D
Now,
of
course,
people
can
still
people
from
two
households
could
meet
up
in
a
a
cafe
or
a
pub
or
a
restaurant,
but
those
pubs,
cafes
and
restaurants
are
obliged,
follow
their
regulatory
environments.
They
are
obliged
to
follow
very
strict
practices
about
how
they
deliver
their
services
and
how
they
manage
their
environments,
which
cannot
be
assured
within
a
household
setting.
D
So
that's
the
the
the
difference
in
the
distinction
in
on
that
particular
point,
and
I
think
on
the
10
pm
issue,
and
the
sense
that
I
would
want
to
convey
to
mr
coffee
is
the
fact
that
we
feel
that
there
are
limitations
and
parameters.
We
need
to
put
around
the
degree
of
interaction
that
individuals
can
have
and
if
that
goes
on
in
an
unrestricted
basis,
then
it
may
give
a
signal
or
an
opportunity
for
the
virus
to
turn
to
be
transmitted.
E
I
I
I
said
I
guess
I
simply
want
to
make
two
points
and-
and
the
first
is
to
reinforce
what
the
dfm
has
just
said.
So
so,
when
we
undertake
the
test
of
the
nhs
test
and
protect
procedure,
what
we
find
as
we
do,
that
as
index
cases
are
interviewed
and
they
tell
us
where
they
have
been
and
how
long
they
were
there
and
so
on
what
professor
leach
has
in
the
past
described
as
themes
emerge.
E
Essentially,
we
begin
to
see:
where
is
the
commonality
in
how
the
individuals
have
been
have
acquired
the
virus?
Where
have
they
been
with
their
contacts
and
so
on,
and
one
of
and
that's
one
of
the
places
of
the
key
place
where
the
evidence
emerges
about
what
looks
like
the
the
dominant
or
one
of
the
dominant
areas
where
transmission
is
happening,
and
that
is
has
been
seen
consistently
as
within
households.
E
Now
now
I
absolutely
understand
I'm
sure
mr
coffee
knows
that
many
constituents
and
family
members
indeed
have
asked
me
the
exactly
the
same
question
and
there's
a
bit
of
that
that
I
understand
it's
in
our
our
own
thinking
that
you
know
what
why
my
house
is
clean.
I
look
after
everything
why
can't
people
come
and
see
me
in
my
own
home,
and
that
is
because
in
our
own
home
that
is
not.
E
Nor
should
it
be
a
regulated,
advanced
environment
where
we
strictly
maintain
two
meters
distance,
where
we
are
very
careful
all
of
the
time
and
how
we
are
cleaning
surfaces
that
other
people
have
touched.
It
would
not
be
a
very
welcoming
home
if
everyone
who
came
to
visit
me
if
I
followed
them
around
with
an
antibacterial,
wipe
wiping
everything
that
they
touched
immediately
after
they
touched
it.
So
I
understand
the
reaction,
but
that
that
is,
if
you
like,
the
core
explanation.
E
The
difference
between
our
own
homes
and
those
hospitality
environments
is
that
regulation
of
physical
distance
of
sitting
at
tables
of
wearing
face
coverings
of
taking
contact
details.
All
of
that,
alongside
the
fact
that
the
evidence
that
we
see
is
telling
us
at
this
point
that
transmission
is
coming
and
one
of
the
most
predominant
areas
is
through
household
transmission,
and
so
if
we
want
to
stop
that
and
break
that,
then
we
have
to
impose
that
kind
of
restriction
on
all
of
us,
which
is
very
difficult
indeed
to
receive
and
to
follow,
but
is
really
necessary.
J
F
F
F
F
So
I
am
very
hopeful
that
in
the
spring
and
summer
of
2021,
the
world
will
develop
a
vaccine
that
will
partly
protect-
maybe
all
of
us,
maybe
some
of
us
against
the
worst
elements
of
this
virus,
but
it
will
not
kill
the
virus
in
the
community.
It
will
not
get
to
a
position
where
the
virus
no
longer
exists.
The
only
thing
will
get
us.
F
So
the
only
way
out
is
a
mixture
of
testing
and
treatment.
So
presently
we
have
no
way
of
stopping
our
mid-level
case
becoming
a
very
serious
case.
We
have
no
way
of
preventing
you
getting
the
disease
other
than
your
own
behavior
and
we
have
no
way
of
treating
the
disease
if
you
get
it
except
right
in
the
extreme,
if
you're
in
intensive
care
or
getting
a
bit
better
at
keeping
you
alive
and
getting
you
out
safely
from
intensive
care,
but
there's
no
meaningful
treatment
earlier
in
the
journey.
F
There's
also
no
treatment
because
we
don't
understand
it
yet
for
those
who
get
the
chronic
disease
from
this
viral
infection.
So,
therefore,
until
then-
and
we've
said
this
a
number
of
times
until
then
it's
human
behavior
and
test
and
protect-
and
that's
why
you
see
me
and
my
colleagues
so
worried
about
600
people,
700
people,
800
people
getting
the
disease,
because
that
has
implications
for
serious
illness
and
we
and
the
health
service
can't
get
get
us
out
of
that.
K
Kamina,
thank
you
very
much
good
morning.
Everybody
and
thank
you
for
coming
to
our
committee,
following
on
for
willie
rennie's
question
earlier
on,
remember
relative
to
negative
testing.
This
is
a
question
for
the
deputy
first
minister,
as
we
now
enter
the
second
six
months
of
of
the
restrictions
in
the
pandemic,
people
could
well
become
complacent
weary
and
slack
about
adhering
to
the
necessary
restrictions.
D
I
I
acknowledge
the
significance
of
the
point
that
mr
corey
meeks
and
the
government
has
taken
a
range
of
steps
to
make
sure
that
we
continue
to
maintain
the
highest
possible
communication,
the
clearest
possible
communication
about
the
risks
that
people
face
and
the
compliance
that
is
required
to
enable
us
to
defeat
the
virus.
That
takes
a
number
of
forms.
And
fundamentally
it
relates
to
the
conveying
of
public
information
by
the
first
minister
on
pretty
much
a
daily
basis
which
we
have
sustained
throughout
the
pandemic
and
which
we
believe
to
be
very
important.
D
D
So
the
the
recent
advert
which
colleagues
may
have
seen,
which
revolves
around
paint
being
used
to
symbolize
the
virus,
which
is
conveyed
between
a
young
woman
and
her
grandfather,
and
I
would
contend
that
is
a
noticeably
more
aggressive
communication,
a
blunter
communication
about
the
dangers.
Well,
that
was
designed
as
a
consequence
of
our
market
intelligence,
which
indicated
that
compliance
was
perhaps
not
as
acute,
and
there
wasn't
quite
the
sense
of
the
danger
that
we've
just
discussed
in
the
questions
with
mr
coffee
about
household
transmission
and
then.
D
K
Thank
you,
deputy
first
minister.
I
think
that's
very
interesting
and
as
a
marketing
man
myself,
I
I
fully
understand
the
messaging
you're
talking
about
and
I
think
it's
absolutely
right,
but
following
on
just
further
professor
leach
made
a
very
clear
point
to
the
in
answer
to
willie
rennie's
question
in
the
negative
testing
is
that
we
still
have
to
adhere
to
the
pandemic
measures.
How
are
you
going
to
sort
of
target
that
very
message,
because
that's
extremely
important,
and
how
are
you
going
to
encapsulate
that
in
your
messaging
deputy
prime
minister,.
D
They
are
the
fundamental
tenants
of
it,
of
of
guidance
which
we
are
putting
into
a
marketing
message
and
we
are
reinforcing
it
as
effectively
and
assiduously
and
as
comprehensively
as
we
possibly
can
do
now.
The
challenge
in
all
of
that,
with
which
mr
corey
will
be
familiar,
is
that
people
may
become
familiar
with
that
message,
but
with
their
familiarity
might
also
come
tiredness
with
that
message.
D
We
have
to
find
different
ways
of
reinforcing
that
message,
and
I
would
contend
that
the
most
recent,
a
distillation
of
that
message
through
the
paint
advert,
is
a
pretty
blunt
way
of
doing
that.
But
I
think
it's
had
an
effect
of
reminding
people
of
the
dangers
of
not
following
that
core
advice
that
we've
set
out
to
members
of
the
public.
K
E
Leach,
thank
you
very
much,
mr
corey,
for
your
question.
It
is
a
really
important
question.
I'm
very
conscious
of
the
the
unintended
consequences
of
the
restrictions
on
visiting
that
we
have
introduced
and
even
where
we
have
eased
those
the
unintended
consequences
on
both
the
residents
of
our
care
homes,
and
indeed
this
the
staff,
as
well
as
the
the
family
and
relatives,
we're
we're
busy.
Looking
right
now
with
our
clinical
and
professional
advisory
group.
E
E
F
I
would
only
add
that
I
think
of
all
the
restrictions
that
we've
had
to
advise
about.
This
is
the
toughest
that
this
is
literally
the
hardest
piece
of
the
public
health
response,
because
everywhere
you
look,
there
is
harm
harm
from
covered
harm
from
loneliness
harm
from
dementia
harm
from
family
connection.
To
try
and
find
a
compromise
that
gets
us
to
some
way
or
in
between
all
those
harms
has
been
enormously
difficult
for
every
single
country,
including
ours.
We
have
made
progress
and
we've
tried
to
do
that
gradually
and
safely,
and
the
cabinet
sector
for
health.
F
I
can
absolutely
promise
you
has
called
in
all
the
people
she
needs
to
to
to
make
those
decisions
wisely.
I
I
would
just
add
a
fairly
blunt
statistic
in
balancing
some
of
those,
my
desire
to
get
families
back
my
desire
to
get
myself
back
to
friends
and
family
who
are
in
care
homes.
It
you
have
to
give
this
virus
to
10
thousand
under
twenties
before
somebody
dies.
F
You
have
to
only
give
it
to
six
over
eighty
fives
before
somebody
dies,
so
that's
a
pretty
stark
warning
about
how
crucial
it
is
to
do
this
safely.
That's
not
to
suggest
remotely
that
we
should
leave
people
to
be
lonely
and
we
shouldn't
look
after
them.
We
of
course
should,
but
we
should
absolutely
it
re
re-do
the
visiting
start
it
again
only
when
it
is
absolutely
safe
to
do
so.
K
L
L
Julie
place
to
finish,
and
I'm
thinking
in
particular,
and
it
involves
communication
as
well,
I'm
thinking
in
particular.
I
was
nice
to
struck
by
comments
that
professor
leach
made.
I
think
it
was
yesterday
during
the
first
minister's
daily
briefing,
and
it
was
very
much
informing
us
and
reminding
us
that
this
is
a
global
pandemic
and
you
know
providing
us
with
an
update
on
statistics
from
across
the
world
in
terms
of
number
of
cases.
L
Sadly,
number
of
deaths,
examples
of
what
was
happening
in
other
countries
and-
and
I
seem
to
recall
that
at
the
very
early
stages
of
lockdown,
where
you
know
buy-in,
was
absolutely
amazing
in
scotland
and
compliance
you
know
we
were
very
much
aware
as
citizens
that
you
know
this.
We
in
scotland
were
part
of
something
that
affected
every
single
country
in
the
world,
and
I
just
wonder
perhaps
for
the
record
today,
if
professor
leach
could
provide
such
an
update
for
our
committee's
purposes.
L
And
we
forget
that
we
are
in
the
midst
of
a
global
pandemic
and
that
every
citizen
of
the
planet
will
not
come
away
unscathed,
be
in
terms
of
health
issues
or
economic
issues
and
or
wellbeing
issues.
And
I
think
that's
a
really
important
picture
to
have
at
to
bring
to
to
people's
attention.
Because
I
think
then
it
helps
to
put
things
in
a
context
and
it
helps
to
facilitate
compliance
when,
of
course,
we're
approaching
the
winter
months.
And
we
can
see
how
weary
people
are
getting.
F
F
We
know
a
number
of
them
have
been
in
scotland,
so
it
was
appropriate
to
try
and
put
that
in
context.
I
think
and
that's
what
we
did
yesterday
and
when
I
came
home.
My
my
wife
said
that
I
was
a
little
emotional
at
the
podium
which
is
unusual.
Most
people
wouldn't
have
spotted
it.
I
don't
think,
but
she
did
and
she
was
right.
F
So
to
put
that
in
perspective,
there
is
no
european
country
just
now
not
thinking
about
extra
restrictions.
The
the
dutches
is
the
most
recent
example
where
they've
had
very
restrictive
hospitality
measures.
In
the
last
few
days,
they've
restricted
household
gatherings,
they've
banned
sports
crowds,
you're
not
allowed
more
than
four
people
in
hospitality.
Other
countries
have
gone
to
one
household,
only
in
hospitality,
so
you
can't
mix
at
all
france
in
partisan,
11
cities
we
discussed
yesterday.
F
They
now
have
a
curfew
at
10
o'clock,
but
not
unlike
ours,
but
in
the
south
of
france,
in
marseille,
where
intensive
care
is
now
full
pool,
they
have
shot
hospitality
in
its
entirety.
The
there
were
numbers
yesterday
in
france
that
suggested
they've
had
they
now
have
now.
It's
60
million
people,
so
you
kind
of
have
to
divide
the
numbers
roughly
by
10,
to
get
to
scotland's
population.
They
they
have
1203
people
in
intensive
care.
F
Our
conventional
intensive
care
capacity
in
scotland
is
about
120
to
150,
and
it's
not
waiting
for
covert
patients.
Remember
it's
full
of
people
with
cancer
with
major
trauma
with
road
traffic
accidents.
We
have
more
capacity
than
that
presently,
because
we've
got
ready
for
covered,
but
that
would
mean
to
another
120
people
in
intensive
care
and
once
you're
in
intensive
care,
you've
got
a
50,
50
chance
of
living
or
dying.
F
F
F
The
over
85s
are
probably
not
in
the
hospitality
sector
or
mixing
a
whole
lot
in
other
people's
households,
but
the
virus
eventually
gets
to
them,
and-
and
that's
why
acting
now
and
that's
what
the
committee
has
been
asking
about
in
in
the
early
questions,
why
act
now?
Why
do
what
you're
doing
now?
That's
why?
Because
we
don't
want
to
be
the
french
and
spain
story
that
we're
watching
and
we
can
learn
as
as
we
go,
I'm
sorry
to
be
so
bleak.
D
If
I
could
make
some
remarks
just
to
add
to
what
and
professor
lynch
has
said
in
response
to
annabelle
young's
question,
one
of
the
remarks
I
made
earlier
on
was
the
government
is
reviewing
data
and
information
on
a
daily
basis,
if
not
several
times
a
day
and
the
the
health
secretary
and
professor
leach
and
I
have
been
involved
in
a
number
of
discussions
and
where
we
have
looked
very
directly
in
the
most
the
most
recent
conversation.
I
think
it
must
understand
in
my
days
right
it
must
have
been
monday.
D
It
was.
We
were
looking
very
directly
at
the
french
and
spanish
data,
but
then
looking
at
how
our
data
looks
in
comparison
with
their
data
over
the
course
of
the
last
couple
of
months
and
when
you
plot
the
scottish
data
with
the
french
and
spanish
data,
and
we
are
following
a
fairly
similar
course,
although
we
are
several
weeks
behind
so
when
people
say,
why
are
you
acting
as
emphatically
as
you're
acting
just
now?
That's
the
answer.
D
Now
I
think
annabelle.
You
raises
an
important
question
about.
Perhaps
the
debate
would
be
in
the
discussion
and
the
compliance
would
be
enhanced
by
perhaps
sharing
more
of
that
international
comparative
information
and
I'll
certainly
take
that
point
away
and
reflect
on
it.
But
I
would
assure
the
committee
and
annabelle
yoon
that
we
are
looking
at
all
of
that
data
to
inform
the
judgments
that
we
need
to
make
to
ensure
that
our
actions
are
as
effective
as
timely
and
as
emphatic
as
they
need
to
be
to
protect
the
population.
L
I
I
do
feel,
though
it
is
important
that
there's
greater
communication
of
that,
so
that
we
in
scotland
recognize
that
we
are
part
of
we're
global
citizens
and
and
decisions
here
you
know,
are
not
being
taken
in
a
bubble
and
we've
all
you
know
got
to
get
through
this
somehow
and
you
know
if
we
all
pay
attention
and
do
what
we
need
to
do,
the
quicker
we'll
get
out
of
it.
So
I'm
very
pleased
indeed
to
hear
that
the
dfm
will
take
that
communication
point
back
and
reflect
further.
Thank
you.
Computer.