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From YouTube: COVID-19 Committee - 10 June 2020
Description
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A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
9th
meeting
of
the
colored
19
committee,
we
have
one
item
on
our
agenda
this
morning.
Looking
at
options
for
easing
the
coronavirus,
lockdown
restrictions
I
will
be
taking
evidence
from
two
panels
of
witnesses
for
a
first
evidence
session
and
we
are
joined
by
Scottish
government
officials,
dr.
Greger
Smith,
with
interim
chief
medical
officer
from
Scotland
professor
David
Crossman,
who
is
the
chief
scientist,
health
and
Professor
Roger
Halliday,
the
chief
statistician
and
the
joint
kind
of
colored
modeling
and
analysis
team.
A
So
I
like
to
welcome
all
three
to
our
meeting
this
morning,
find
them
and
had
for
their
onion
aisle
asking
members
if
they
can,
when
they're,
asking
their
questions
if
they
can
indicate
which
of
our
panelists.
They
want
to
answer
that
question
and
if
any
of
the
panelists
want
to
bring
in
a
colleague-
and
they
just
say
that
at
that
point
that
allowed
broadcasting
a
chance
to
switch
on
the
appropriate
microphones,
I,
don't
think
I
just
remind
those
members
and
witnesses
just
to
take
a
pause
before
they
answer.
A
B
C
That
means
that
I
am
predominantly
research
facing
advise
on
health
research
matters
and
that
clearly
there
is
a
research
interface
with
the
whole
Kovach
problem
had
been
drawn
into
that
in
Kovach
times.
My
background
is
as
a
clinical
scientist
I
was
a
researcher
and
fourth
interest
I'm
a
cardiologist.
Thank
you.
A
Okay,
thank
you
very
much
very
helpful,
just
understand
at
the
respective
roles
of
the
witnesses
when
they
might
we'll
start
at
the
questions
that
I'll
start
quite
direct.
The
first
two
questions
to
a
greater
smith,
and
then
please,
if
you
want
to
bring
your
colleagues
in,
please
just-just-just
do
so.
A
We
are
focusing
this
morning
on
the
issue
of
easing
the
coronavirus,
long
time
restrictions
you
only
have
to
switch
on
a
television
or
a
radio
or
pick
up
a
newspaper
to
see
how
much
public
interest
there
is
in
there
see,
and
this
is
progressing-
and
you
know
there's
a
lot
of
discussion
around
all
the
different
factors
at
play
here.
The
are
number
number
of
cases
in
hospital
at
the
moment.
A
The
number
of
infection
cases
in
the
general
population,
the
success
of
the
test
country's
initiative,
I
think
what
the
committee
is
interested
in
trying
to
understand
is
to
what
extent
are
those
visions
proposed,
relaxing
restrictions
and
moving
on
from,
for
example,
phase
one
is
to
or
subsequent
pieces
you
what
extent
are
these
driven
purely
by
the
science
or
are
they
ultimately
political
generation?
I?
Think,
if
you
can
try
and
give
us
an
understanding
about
that
very
helpful.
B
So
the
basis
of
why
these
restrictions
are
in
place
is
the
restrictions
that
we've
all
been
living
with
for
many
many
weeks.
They
are
designed
to
try
to
protect
us
from
the
harmful
effects
of
covert
19,
the
disease
that
this
house
could
be
virus
causes
and
those
restrictions
are
designed
to
try
to
provide
separation
from
each
other
in
a
way
that
prevents
the
virus
from
transmitting
to
each
other.
And
so
one
of
the
things
we've
done
successfully
over.
B
That
time
is
to
be
able
to
suppress
this
spread
about
bias,
and
we
know
that
because
the
speed
is
a
the
students
that
we
monitor
to
see
exactly
what
the
current
state
of
spreads
and
illness
across
the
country
is
and
Roger
might
want
to
touch
upon.
Some
of
the
models
have
used
that
word
but
and
another
one
second.
But
but
if
that's
the
reason
why
the
restrictions
are
in,
then
we
need
to
be
very,
very
clear
that
the
icin,
as
we
start
to
change
those
restrictions
as
we
start
to
evolve
our
approach.
B
The
purpose
still
has
to
mean
that
we
change
that
approach
in
a
way
to
see
to
the
population
that
we
make
sure
that
with
each
change
that
we
apply,
that
the
impact
of
that
doesn't
cause
the
the
virus
to
learn
to
be
able
to
spread
again.
And
one
of
the
points
that
I
want
to
get
across
to
the
committee
is-
is
that
the
margins
in
that
are
rather
tight
and
you
think
we've
all
become
familiar
with
our
number
noise.
B
It's
something
that
probably
a
few
misspoke
about
on
a
regular
basis
and
prior
to
this,
but
I
think
we've
all
become
rather
links
bear
and
what
the
whole
number
is,
and
and
and
the
point
the
constant
players,
not
only
in
Scotland
but
but
in
places
across
the
world
as
well.
But
that
our
number
is
important,
because
what
it
tells
us
is
how
the
virus
has
the
potential
to
transmit
across
communities.
And
it's
not
taking
an
isolation,
is
a
useful.
E
B
It's
not
taking
an
isolation,
because
what
we
also
have
to
take
into
code
is
the
number
of
infectious
cases
that
we
have
at
any
one
time
as
well.
What
the
bottom
of
these
news,
if
you
like,
has
within
our
communities
as
well,
because
that
tells
you
actually
what
the
potential
for
mass
rate
is
within
the
country
as
well
and
the
morning
pictures
people
we
have
the
more
likely.
B
And
we
want
to
guard
against
that,
because
the
the
margins
are
very,
very
small
and
and
for
some
time,
though,
we've
been
seeing
a
sustained
and
stabilizing
effect
in
those
numbers,
so
that
we
can
become
increasingly
confident
that
changing
the
restrictions
is
not
going
to
allow
that
rapid
growth
of
the
number
of
cases
again
and
but
but
we
really
need
to
necessarily
avoid
just
caution.
All
along
is
that
we
need
to
take
those
specs
very
very
carefully
in
a
sense
of
impact.
B
So,
in
my
view,
the
device
that
has
been
provided
at
all
times
has
been
to
make
sure
that
we
use
the
science
to
help
educators.
Out
of
that
that
we
use
the
data
that's
available
to
us
to
help
to
make
those
decisions
in
a
timely
way.
But
all
times
is
with
the
the
purpose
of
making
sure
that
we
try
to
preserve
the
public
health
of
the
population.
A
Thank
you.
Thank
you
very
much
just
just
to
follow
up
on
that.
As
you
mentioned,
the
are
numbered
I
know
a
number
of
my
colleagues.
Wonderful
su
dishes
are
in
the
are
number
in
a
bit
more
detail
on
working
on
to
that
in
a
moment,
but
we
have
obviously
two
phase
one
of
the
relaxation
of
restrictions
the
First
Minister
will
making
a
statement
next
week
as
to
whether
or
not
at
that
point
we
can
move
on
to
Phase
two.
B
But
it's
are
in
the
context
of
the
pool
of
infectious
cases
that
we
have,
of
course,
the
country
and
hables
KT
that
impact
and
services
as
well.
Professor
hardly
may
want
to
see
a
little
bit
more
about
that
and
some
of
the
more
than
what
he's
done,
the
house
to
inform
these
decisions.
But
what
we
can
actually
do
is
is
for
any
changes
that
we
begin
to
shape
and
to
propose.
D
D
That
first
of
all,
look
at
what
other
companies
have
done,
and
that
is
that
we're
tracking
data
from
around
20
countries
around
the
world-
and
you
can
look
at
their
experience
and
look
at
what
happens
to
the
are
number
in
those
countries,
but
before
they
introduced
an
easement
of
different
kinds.
So,
for
example,
of
interest
what
happens
to
open
schools
in
Denmark?
We
live
what
happened:
opening
construction
in
Spain
and
we
and
a
range
of
other
things,
and
to
do
that.
You
need
to
have
a
gap
either
side
of
when
that
restriction
was
I.
D
Do
need
to
wait
a
few
weeks
to
make
sure
that
in
fact,
you
see
the
effects,
but
we
could.
We
can
do
that
for
some
of
the
things
that
were
looking
at
mint
is
a
pretty
signal
and
where
we
really
can't
do
that.
So
we
are
also
part
of
the
UK
netbook
link
to
the
sage
committee
and
in
particular
it's
a
modeling
called
spy
M,
and
that
has
expertise
from
around
the
UK
that
are
looking
at
various
interventions
and
the
impact
of
those
and
particularly
developed
at
velocities
and
use
the
expertise.
D
And
then,
when
neither
of
those
things
is
available.
What
we've
ultimately
done
is
look
at
some
of
the
key
drivers
for
transmission,
and
there
are
five
drivers
for
transmission
rate
that
we
look
at
to
related
to
scale.
So
the
first
thing
is
kind
of
how
many
people
are
changing
their
behaviour
under
an
option,
but
there
is
just
a
few
people
and
would
be
doing
something
differently
or
a
lot
the
and
then
for
those
people
that
change
in
behaviour.
How
many
people
that
they
come
into
contact
with.
D
D
So
we're
assessing
the
extent
to
which
each
of
these
five
drivers
applies
to
and
then
I'm
working
with
colleagues
across
government
who
are
looking
at
other
harms
that
are
related
to
open
so
to
other
monk,
Hogan's
health
issues,
societal
issues
and
economic
issues
and
looking
at
the
benefits
of
of
opening
up
of
choosing
particular
options
to
do
these
restrictions
and
I.
Guess
then,
then,
that
collective
advice
forward?
The
two
ministers.
A
Okay,
thank
thank
you.
Professor
Halliday
I've
got
dirtiness
and
watts
of
commitment
with
a
supplementary
on
the
bring
win
in
a
second
but
I.
Just
ask
one
final
follow-up:
question
of
a
federal
holiday.
We
have
across
the
four
nations
of
the
UK,
slightly
different
approaches.
Noted,
relaxing
and
lockdown
in
other
parts
of
the
UK
are
I'm,
probably
taking
a
more
liberal
approach
than
we
have
so
far
in
Scotland.
A
D
One
thing
that
I
mentioned
that's
important
here
is
that,
in
order
to
really
see
the
signal,
something
that
there's
an
effect
on
on
the
are
value
or
an
effect
of
a
particular
easing,
he
needs
to
do
things
to
be
happening.
One
is
that
you
need
it'll
suit
to
know
that
the
effect
was
down
to
a
particular
a
particular
thing.
You
need
nothing
else
to
be
happening
for
a
week
either
side
of
that.
D
D
What
we
are
also
doing
is
I
guess,
looking
at
the
things
as
we're
gonna
mentioned
earlier,
on
looking
at
indicators,
both
here
in
Scotland
and
elsewhere
at
the
number
of
cases,
the
number
of
admissions
to
hospital
and
the
number
of,
and
the
number
of
deaths
from
kovat
as
and
and
other
indicators
to
to
getness
assessment.
That
was
asked.
F
Thank
you,
convener
dr.
Greger
Smith
referred
to
each
peers
in
other
countries,
and
we've
just
been
listening
to
Roger
Halladay
to
do
my
supplementary
as
directed
talk
about
looking
at.
What's
going
on
in
20
other
countries.
Other
personal
interest,
because
I
have
a
nephews,
a
senior
teacher
in
Denmark
and
I
have
people
in
other
countries
in
Sweden
and
the
United
States
your
relatives
and
but
I
particularly
wanted
to
understand
as
a
layperson.
F
I
stress,
of
course,
who
we
normalize
the
data
that
are
coming
from
other
countries
and
we
make
sure
that
it's
actually
telling
us
the
same
story,
because
we
do
know
that
things
are
counted
and
allocated
in
different
ways
in
different
countries
and
the
reason
I
ask
that
is
to
what
extent
is
with
your
other
countries,
helping
the
policymakers
and
the
ministers
make
decisions
that
are
based
on
other
countries.
Experience
because,
of
course,
if
the
data
isn't
comparable
because
it
hasn't
be
properly
normalized,
we
will
make
false
decisions.
D
Or
thanks
to
the
question,
the
first
thing
I
would
say
is
that
I've
thrown
together
a
team
of
experts
from
across
the
public
sector
in
Scotland
and
with
some
academics
that
will
recommend
there's.
The
second
thing
that
I
would
say
is
that
so
what
we're
looking
for?
It's
nationally
as
a
signal,
and
so
the
fact
that
so
it's
the
first
of
all
the
model
primarily
using
death
data,
because
it's
the
the
best
most
comparable
and
most
consistent
over
time,
and
it's
that
consistency
over
time.
A
G
Good
morning,
thank
you,
convenient
and
good
morning
to
earth
panel
today,
and
my
first
question
is
on
the
are
number
and
you'll
probably
not
be
surprised
about
that
and
I
wondered
and
perhaps
activated
holidays
the
best
person
to
answer
it
initially
and
does
a
Scottish
government
hold
information
on
what
this
is
makes?
It's
our
number
is
for
a
different
part
of
Scotland
different
regions.
Is
that
information
shared
with
local
health
boards
or
local
authorities,
for
example,
and
is
there
any
reason
why
that
information
couldn't
be
shared
with
the
public.
D
D
In
fact,
I
would
say
that
and
I
would
guess
that
the
ranges
that
go
to
being
so
wide
that
actually
it's
you
know
that
there's
limited
value
in
in
having
an
arm
unbuffered
for
different
parts
of
Scotland.
In
what
way,
what
weren't,
much
better
to
do
is
to
use
the
data
that
we've
got
about
number
cases,
the
number
of
hospital
admissions
and
the
number
of
deaths,
and
at
this
point
as
that
is
justice.
D
Now
you
need
to
say
thank
you
to
to
all
my
statistical
colleagues
that
have
really
stepped
up
and
started
producing
information
on
a
much
more
regular
basis
to
be
published
daily
to
ghost
now,
by
by
health
board,
for
example,
on
a
whole
range
of
statistics
and
I.
Think
that's
the
place
to
start
for
examining,
what's
on
their
hands.
G
Thank
you.
Mr.
holiday
mean
it
sounds
like
there's
lots
of
detail
available,
but
you've
said
that
there's
still
a
degree
of
uncertainty
and
I
understand
your
point
about
a
range
being
looked
at
rather
than
a
definitive
our
number,
and
do
you
see
a
benefit
and
putting
all
of
that
information
into
the
public
domain?
D
D
Examining
this
moment
I
think
the
challenge
is
that
we've
actually,
thankfully,
now
got
quite
small
numbers
of
cases
of
the
hospital
admissions
and
of
deaths
that,
if
you
were
to
fill
down
within
a
health
board
or
a
local
authority
areas,
are
very
small
areas,
then
that
then
the
numbers
actually
are
very
small,
and
so
we've
got
a
challenge
there,
both
in
terms
of
privacy
and
in
terms
of
the
presentation
of
that
data.
So
we're
just
examining
how
best
to
go
about
that.
G
Thank
you.
If
I
can
move
on
to
another
and
aspect,
there's
been
a
lot
of
discussion
about
the
the
two
meter
distance
rule
and
we
Riis
that
with
the
cabinet
sacred,
should
make
my
soul
last
week
and
raising
some
of
the
practical
difficulties
for
workers
and
employers
and
then
telling
it
to
me
or
Destin's.
G
But
there's
even
a
nice
cup
of
tea
has
been
a
lot
of
media
coverage
about
what
happens
and
their
countries
and
the
current
thinking
and
Scotland's
and
the
UK
so
can
I
ask
in
terms
of
their
the
science
and
the
deeds
Heather
you
have
access
to
family.
Only.
Why
don't?
Why
is
there
no
consensus
on
whether
it
should
be
2
meters
or
1
meters?
I?
Don't
have
an
exact
less
than
front
of
me,
but
I
know
that
in
many
countries
they've
been
looking
at
1
meter
or
1.4
1.5
meters.
G
B
So
thank
you
for
your
question
and
I
think
it's
really
important
that
we
address
the
the
risk
is
associated
with
distancing
as
well
and
as
you
speak
about
it,
but
but
but
also
acknowledged
that
actually
there
are
different
types
of
harms
that
have
arisen
as
a
result
of
the
covered,
19
and,
and
they
make
across
the
world.
Primarily
we've
been
focused,
I
think
quite
rightly,
and
making
sure
that
we
reduce
the
health
harms
which
are
associated
with
Corbett
19.
B
We
have
to
acknowledge
as
well
that
there
are
way
that
harms
to
society
and
to
the
economy
as
well
as
a
consequence
of
the
coordinating
pandemic
as
well,
and
we
don't
take
any
of
those
lately,
we
were
providing
advice.
My
role
is
to
be
able
to
provide
the
public
health
in
the
clinical
advice
that
helps
to
shape
our
response
as
to
why
we
should
take
a
particular
measure
or
a
particular
approach
to
try
to
reduce
the
potential
for
this
to
harm
health
work.
B
B
Evade
and
the
the
adequate
levels
of
safety
and
reduce
transmission
between
people
is
that
the
UK
should
adopt
the
two
meter
distance
sure
and
in
that
respect
and
I,
think
that
this
is
a
balanced
and
sensible
precaution
to
make
sure
that
we
are
reducing
the
risk
of
the
transmission
of
the
spa
between
people
as
soon
as
you
start
to
reduce
that
distance.
Any
further.
The
closer
you
get
to
that
one
meter,
the
the
last
time
that
you're
able
to
spend
with
and
without
the
possibility
of
be
able
to
transmit
this.
B
We're
after
remember
that
behind
us
is
a
virus
which
is
highly
transmissible,
it's
probably
more
transmissible
by
the
data
that
we
have
so
far
than
influenza
and
I'm.
Certainly
all
the
candidate
that
I
activate,
and
this
would
suggest
that
and
it's
a
it's
a
virus
which
is
particularly
highly
transmissible
because
so
few
of
us
have
ever
had
come
into
contact
with
it.
B
G
This
baked
that
your
rule
is
to
advise
on
on
public
health
matters,
and
but
can
you
give
us
some
insight
in
terms
of
advice
to
the
First
Minister
and
who
made
that
face,
and
it
can
all
pick
impact,
because
but
those
business
teas
and
who
just
simply
can
maintain
to
meet
your
lessons?
These
you
know
coffee
spots
at
bars
and
saw
in
restaurants
if
they
go
out
of
business,
that
would
impact
on
people's
jobs
and
on
the
economy,
and
that
was
solely
to
public
health
harm.
B
I
guess
I
should
confine
myself
to
commenting
on
the
specific
Public,
Health
and
Clinical
advice
that
is
given
to
to
ministers
and
obviously
the
receiver
place
on
other
aspects
of
government
from
from
other
advisers
as
well,
and
this
you
may
be
aware
that
there's
a
network
of
chief
advisors
across
government,
including
the
chief
economic
advisor
blue,
new
dough,
has
been
giving
advice
on
a
regular
basis.
Its
administers
as
well
through
this
as
I
said.
B
Iii
would
only
want
to
compare
myself
to
the
public
health
and
clinical
advice
that
has
been
given
to
ministers
and
the
way
that
has
been
leveled
as
I
see
is
within
the
UK.
We've
been
advertising
this
structure,
which
is
able
to
examine
the
evidence
from
around
the
world
in
the
UK
and
make
a
judgement,
and
that,
and
that's
primarily
through
the
sage
network
of
groups,
which
includes
a
variety
of
different
subgroups
and
which
all
and
examine
different
aspects
of
the
response
to
cope
with
19.
B
But
these
are
primarily
focused
on
the
public,
health
and
clinical
aspects
and
as
the
way
we
should
adopt
a
particular
approach.
Wo
recommends
a
minimum
of
one
with
the
space,
but
also
acknowledges
with
them
that
guidance,
actually,
the
the
the
the
the
Lord
the
spacing
between
people
deleted
the
risk
there
is
as
well
and
I.
Think
quite
rightly,
we've
adopted
an
approach
which
minimizes
the
health
harms
to
the
country.
A
H
Thank
you
commuter
good
morning,
colleagues
and
panel
just
pick
you
up
in
that
last
point.
I
mean
I.
Take
from
what
dr.
Smith
said
that
the
the
closer
you
are,
the
greater
the
risk,
the
closer
you
are,
the
less
time
if
you
like
you,
can
Spain
to
that
close
without
the
risk
increasing
significantly
and
therefore
I
would
ask
in
that
context,
as
we're
talking
about
easing
lockdown.
B
So
again,
thank
you
very
question
and
I
guess.
It
follows
on
from
the
conversation
that
we've
just
had
there
one
of
the
things
that
we
are
trying
to
do
and
try
to
do
from
the
beginning
to
reduce
the
number
of
bridges
of
transmission
and
and
one
of
the
ways
that
we've
done.
That
is
is
by
introducing
these
what
don't
measure
snow,
and
this
is
obviously
a
huge
impact
on
society.
But
what
it
does
is
reduces
our
contact
with
other
people
and
therefore
reduces
the
opportunity
for
this
virus
to
pass
from
one
person
to
the
other.
B
If
we
do
that
at
the
same
time
as
people
are
actually
closer
physically
to
each
other,
then
clearly
you
can.
You
can
see
how
we
would
start
to
get
into
an
area
where
more
restrictive
measures
would
have
to
be
considered
again
in
order
to
suppress
that
bias
and
I
want
to
get
across.
The
point.
Very
very
carefully
than
that.
Actually
this
isn't.
B
One
of
the
key
characteristics
that
we
can
see
with
the
spires
is
that
where
people
are
closer
together,
where
people
call
okay,
particularly
in
enclosed
spaces,
the
more
likely
that
is
to
be
able
to
spray
it
from
one
person
to
the
next
of
what
we
want
to
try
to
do
is
we
want
to
try
to
include
it
to
avoid
that
and
to
make
sure
that
we
reduce
the
chances
of
us
having
to
reintroduce
any
more
restrictive
measures
again
in
the
future?
I.
H
Thank
dr.
Smith
for
the
answer.
Another
question
I
have
is
the
HP
number
and
the
press
minister
prepared
to
deed
tonight
yesterday
get
the
briefing
and
it
would
be
helpful,
I
think
through
the
public,
if
somebody
else
direct
it
to
dr.
Smith,
but
you
can
feel
free
to
involve
his
colleagues.
If
somebody
could
explain
in
layman's
terms
what
the
key
number
is,
but
also,
very
importantly,
what
significance
this
measurement
could
could
have
in
terms
of
tackling
the
pandemic
and
further
easing
lockdown.
B
So
again,
this
is
this
is
a
real
area
of
emerging
interest.
If
you
like,
this
is
the
key
number
we're
introducing
new
terms
to
the
kind
of
countries
link.
So
can
all
the
time
I'll
probably
bring
professor
Kaufman,
and
in
the
second
floor
you
can
see
a
little
bit
more,
but
essentially
when
we
are
facing
the
key
number.
B
What
we're
looking
at
is
the
potential
for
the
virus
to
spread
to
other
people
from
from
and
from
and
if
you
like,
a
low
number
of
people,
but
we
know
from
the
way
that
infectious
disease
spreads
is
that
not
everybody
will
spread
to
the
same
extent
with
this
virus.
We
know
that
some
people
actually
don't
spread
the
virus
very
easily
at
all.
B
C
Thank
you
Gregor
those
Ches
and
is
a
yet
another
number
that
we
can
hang
on
to
to
measure
spread.
But
it's
it's
looking,
as
the
CMO
has
said
at
analyzing
clusters
now
I'll
just
sort
of
slightly
rewinds
some
of
the
discussion,
because
I
think
a
point
that
has
been
slightly
under
emphasized
is
where
we
are
in
the
epidemic
in
Scotland.
C
Changes
from
that
managing
the
accelerate
part
of
the
of
the
curve
and
the
eye-watering
numbers
of
cases
and
deaths
that
has
not
forget
to
actually
something
that
is
more
containable
and
what
you're
doing
at
this
stage
is
and
the
questions
absolutely
spot-on.
You
are
trying
to
stop
this
re
escalating,
a
rebound
a
second
way
or
whatever,
but
in
the
context
of
this
question,
we're
talking
about
a
second
wave
coming
from
indigenous
local.
C
At
the
height
of
the
epidemic,
the
the
model
has
been
very
biomedical
for
sake
of
a
better
description.
It's
been
all
about,
infections,
on
and
so
forth,
and
the
economic,
social
and
educational
issues
have
been
slightly
to
one
side,
but
as
you
manage
this
pale
beige,
clearly
those
become
much
more
important
because
of
the
issue
of
how
long
it's
going
to
go
on
for,
but
in
in
relation
to
the
issue.
That
is
the
substance
of
this
question.
C
In
fact,
I
think
it
would
be
fair
to
say
that
you
know
examining
clusters
is
about
eat
really
and
that's
why
it's
important.
Coming
back
to
the
question
about
our
number,
our
number
is
the
envelope
for
the
whole
of
Scotland.
It
has
to
look
at
linked
communities
that
do
and
that's
one
reason
why
you
don't
reduce
it
and
reduce
and
reduce
it.
C
That
has
to
be
a
link
between
the
people,
but
we
are
now
in
this
situation
where
we
will
have
an
are
number
bumbling
along
because
it
says
you're
in
the
tail
of
the
epidemic,
but
it
won't
spring
up
quickly.
But
what
we
might
see
is
clusters.
We
might
see
cane,
that's
measured
by
this.
This
variation
of
distribution,
telling
you
about
clustering
and
about
outbreak
but
I,
think
it's.
The
context
of
the
important
message
I
want
to
get
over
is.
The
context
is
where
we
are
in
the
epidemic
cycle,
which
I
think
changes
the
approach
there.
C
We
go
from
lock
down
to
trace
and
protect.
For
example,
it
goes
it
changes
the
way
we
measure
it.
We
perhaps
don't
obsess
so
much
on
our.
We
look
at
other
measures
like
incident
cases
k
various
other
measures
that
you
can
you
can
look
at
in
society
and-
and
those
are
those
are
some
of
those
research-based
and,
of
course
it
changes.
C
A
E
You
can
be
there
and
I
think.
Thank
you.
Everyone
don't
ask
how
you
calibrate
the
health
harms
that
are
being
directly
caused
by
knockdown
itself
in
terms
of
the
advice
that
you
give
to
ministers
about
the
appropriate
balance
to
strike
between
their
health,
arms
of
kovat
and
the
health
arms
of
the
response,
to
curb
it
and
in
particular,
how
do
you
calibrate
and
what
weight
do
you
give
to
the
mental
health
and
mental
well-being
harms
that
are
being
directly
caused
by
this
prolonged
lockdown.
B
Thank
You
mr.
Fung
tonight,
thanks
for
that
question
and
things
a
really
good
question,
because
it's
something
which
is
on
our
mains
and
really
constantly
in
terms
of
the
balance
between
those
different
harms,
I,
think
I.
Think
there
are
four
main
arms
that
we
would
want
to
consider
in
this
context.
There's
the
direct
and
the
indirect
compounds
that
you've
alluded
to,
but
there's
also
this
the
the
harms
to
society
and
the
hounds
to
the
economy,
all
of
which
we
have
an
indirect
impact
on
health
as
well.
B
But,
of
course,
the
longer
you
have
those
extreme
actions
in
place,
the
more
likely
that
are
that
there
are
harms
which
will
begin
to
mount
from
other
sources.
One
of
the
harms
we've
been
keeping
up
really
close
eye
on,
of
course,
is
the
house
from
the
the
the
nonviolent
health
consequences,
particularly
of
some
services,
which
we
have
taken,
perhaps
for
granted,
with
an
NHS
being
poised
to
lower
the
overall
response
to
the
covert
I.
B
B
We
also
have
to
keep
amply
quite
close
attention
to
is
if,
if
the
country
does
suffer
longer-term
economic
harm
as
a
consequence
of
the
response,
who
assumes
likely,
it
seems
said,
that's
the
picture
which
is
emerging
globally
is
the
country's
war
experience,
and
that
is
often
at
a
even
point.
Health
inequalities
are
awaiting
as
well,
and
we
know
that
covered
19
already
has
had
quite
a
significant
impact
on
people
experiencing
those
health
inequalities
and
that
might
be
accentuated
and
amplified
in
the
future
as
well.
E
The
dice
are
being
loaded
inadvertently,
perhaps
where
the
dice
are
being
loaded.
So
one
of
the
things
that
you
said
in
a
response
to
an
earlier
answer
is
that
we
have
to
reduce
kovat
health
harms
and
we
have
to
acknowledge
other
health
funds.
Why
is
that?
Why?
Don't
we
have
to
reduce
other
health
arms
as
well
as
reducing
COBIT
health
harms?
Why
is
it?
Why
is
it
good
enough
just
to
acknowledge
that
there
are
other
other
harm
of
the
harms
going
on?
E
So
perhaps
it's
best
to
talk
about
this,
not
in
the
general
but
in
the
particular.
So,
let's,
let's
go
back
to
the
particular
of
2
meters
versus
1
meter.
We
know
that
hundreds,
perhaps
thousands
of
hospitality
businesses
will
not
be
able
to
make
ends
meet
if
their
customers
have
to
be
separated
by
2
meters,
but
will
be
able
to
make
ends
meet
if
their
customers
have
to
be
separated
by
only
1
meter.
We
know,
as
you've
just
said,
that
significant
unemployment
causes
significant
health
harms.
Unemployment
is
not
only
an
economic
problem,
it's
a
health
problem.
E
B
So,
just
out
about,
we
also,
we
know
so
the
first,
the
first
date
in
identifying
a
be
able
to
address
any
potential
risk
or
any
harm
is
first
of
all,
to
acknowledge,
because
once
you've
acknowledged
that
you're
then
able
to
introduce
things
which
try
to
mitigate
the
risk
of
that
harm
actually
taking
in
place.
And
what
we
know
from
this,
of
course
was.
The
Tompkins
is,
is
that
it
is
very
real
that
the
closer
people
are
together,
the
more
likely
it
is
to
transmit.
B
So
the
evidence
again
suggests
very
very
clearly
to
us
all,
but
the
the
way
to
mitigate
that
risk
is
to
ensure
that
the
distancing
is
appropriate
to
reduce
that
risk
to
acceptable
levels
and
in
the
same
way,
that
we
do
that.
We
also
say
it's
the
harms
potential
from
other
things,
whether
that
be
from
non-attendance
or
Eadie's,
whether
that
be
from
this.
The
potential
societal
harms
that
are
happening
and
mitigation
strategies
have
developed
to
try
to
reduce
the
risk
of
those
a
calling
and
a
nice.
B
A
Thank
you,
q.
Mr.
Tompkins
will
move
on
to
Willie
coffee
reason
after
Willie
I'll
bring
in
Ross
clear
can
I
just
say
to
our
witnesses.
We
found
some
very
detailed
answers
and
it's
important
because
a
lot
of
detail
in
this
we
want
to
get
out,
but
we
are
a
little
bit
behind
the
clock
so
lightly.
Shorter
answers
would
be
helpful
just
to
like
members,
all
the
opportunity
to
ask
the
questions
they
want
and
Willie
coffee.
Please
thank.
I
I
B
The
way
we
look,
the
infectious
pool
within
Scotland
does
it
has
been,
and,
as
is
just
know,
as
we
look
at
the
models
to
see
how
about
projects
for
what
there's
a
fine
assessment
that
needs
to
be
made
for
these
most
vulnerable
people
within
communities,
to
say
to
them
that
it's
nice
and
safe
for
them
to
start
just
to
kind
of
go
outside
again,
and
these
decisions
are
not
taken
lightly.
Fortunately,
we
have
widespread
and
networks
of
clinical
advisors
will
be
able
to
advise
us
on
these
matters.
B
For
instance,
in
relation
to
shielding
and
our
clinical
guidance
sale
has
been
offering
as
a
base
and
guidance
as
to
how
we
manage
the
extreme
vulnerability
that
some
of
these
groups
face
with
the
revealing
epidemiology
and
case-mix
of
cases
that
we
see
across
communities
just
snow.
And
what
we
are
saying
at
this
point
in
time
is,
is
that
with
the
Contin
infectious
pool
that
we
have
across
Scotland?
B
The
other
important
aspect
of
us
as
well
is
that
we've
made
some
changes
over
the
last
two
theories,
though,
as
professor
Hardy's
already
said,
we
need
to
make
sure
that
we've
assessed
those
changes
are
not
had
an
unintended
effect
by
making
those
changes
and
actually
case
numbers
have
grown
again
because
for
me
it
would
be
reckless
to
recommend
the
most
vulnerable
group
in
society
to
start,
who
am
I
to
say
it
again,
if
actually,
what
we
have
is
a
picture
of
rising
number
of
cases.
Oh.
I
Thank
you
very
much
father
dr.
Smith.
My
only
follow
up
to
do
that
University
ask
em.
Can
we
envisage
them
dedicated
time
slots,
perhaps
for
her,
but
are
shielded
community
to
allow
them
to
access?
You
know,
country
paths
and
what
ways,
and
so
on
particular
times
of
the
day.
I
know
doing
this
in
Ireland
and
local
communities
dealer
respecting
that,
and
it's
really
been
a
great
boost
brush
the
shielded
communities.
There
too
knew
all
that
they
can
get
out
safely
and
look
in
the
countryside
and
do
that
are
protected
in
doing
that.
B
What
we're
looking
at
over
the
coming
weeks
and
and
just
know
as
we're
working
with
groups
across
the
UK
to
try
and
give
a
much
more
tailored
advice
to
people
who
are
shooting
so
that
they
can
assess
their
risk
in
a
way
that
actually
meets
the
rule
approach
to
risk
as
well.
So
it's
a
tailored
advice
that
allows
them
to
make
a
judgment
as
to
what's
the
the
prevailing
circumstances
in
their
neighborhoods.
B
That
would
allow
them
to
make
a
judgment
about
how
to
go
about
their
everyday
life
and
I.
Think
it's
like
tailor
the
individual
information
to
allow
people
to
assess
their
own
risk,
which
is
going
to
become
really
important
in
a
911.
Those
people
who
are
shielding
much
more
freedom
of
movement
and
to
be
able
to
make
these
decisions
with
the
the
agency
that
they
meet.
Saluki.
J
Thank
You
convener
I.
This
is
primarily
a
question
for
dr.
Smith
interested
in
asymptomatic
individuals
and
but
I
I'm,
including
people
who
are
pre-symptomatic
as
well
for
the
purposes
of
the
question,
and
there
was
a
study
of
the
outbreak
that
the
Diamond
Princess
the
cruise
liner,
that
found
that
em
half
of
the
passengers
who
tested
positive
on
that
ship
we're
asymptomatic
at
the
point
they
were
tested.
J
Last
week
there
was
a
review
published
of
sexting
groups
of
kovat
patients
around
the
world,
and
it
found
at
least
30%
and
more
likely
up
to
45%
of
cases
could
be
traced
back
to
people
who
spread
the
virus
without
ever
knowing
that
they
were
infected.
So
this
increasingly
being
described
by
scientists
and
concluding,
and
what
just
mentioned
as
being
the
the
Achilles
heel
asymptomatic
transmission,
is
the
Achilles
heel
of
current
strategies
across
the
world
to
suppress
the
virus.
There
was
an
imperial
college
study
and
said
written
test
and
could
reduce
infections
by
up
to
third.
J
Now
in
Scotland,
we've
got
what
appears
to
have
been
around
900
patients
and
900
staff
with
corpus,
disease
and
Scottish
hospitals
if
we'd
been
routinely
testing
NHS
staff.
So
those
are
asymptomatic
and
pre-symptomatic
how
many
of
the
deaths
that
are
potentially
associated
with
these
n
Hospital
transmissions
do,
you
believe,
could
have
been
prevented.
B
Thank
you
a
question.
It's
an
ad,
a
huge
scientific
debate.
Just
then
House
will
bring
their
professor
Crossman
into
this
discussion
as
well,
but
but
the
the
whole
issue
of
is
symptomatic
or
quasi
symptomatic,
they
split
is
one
where
there
is
still
very
debated.
Scientific
opinion
on
balance.
I
think
that
it
is
the
evidence
is
accumulating
for
it
that
that
is
potentially
a
period,
perhaps
in
the
24.
Maybe
48
hours
before
people
become
symptomatic,
and
there
is
the
potential
for
spread
in
that
time.
B
Much
more
lately
and
that
points
a
professor
of
course
we
may
want
to
come
in
with
with
some
more
of
the
science
that
sits
behind
that.
But
but
that's
why,
increasingly
all
of
the
response
to
the
pandemic?
We've
started
to
build
in
more
and
more
elements
that
Luke's
at
home
testing
and
an
asymptomatic
basis
may
contribute
to
the
overall
response
so,
for
instance,
the
testing
of
a
symptomatic
care
home
workers
to
see
you
Father,
and
that
reveals
any
people
that
should
be
given
specific
advice
about
how
they
should
proceed
with
what
can
exclude
themselves.
B
C
C
Thanks
very
much
CMO
and
in
fact
the
question
gosh.
This
is
topical
so
and
it
sounds
a
slightly
sort
of
pedantic
but
a
distinction
here
there
are
some
people
who
will
remain
asymptomatic
throughout
and
they
will
only
be
identified
by
having
an
antibody
test
and
they'll,
say:
golly,
I
didn't
know,
I'd
been
ill
and
they're
asymptomatic
cases
and
the
evidence
and
that's
what
the
w8
show
were
referring
to
and
I
think
that
the
data
that
are
accumulating
support,
wh
o--'s
position
that
they
aren't,
they
aren't
super
spreaders.
C
They
probably
don't
shed
much
virus
and
and
say
they're,
not
to
worry
about,
is
probably
overstating
but
they're
different.
What
we're
talking
about
in
the
context
of
your
question
is,
is
somebody
who
doesn't
think
they're
armed
well,
but
will
be
about
to
come
well
identifiable
through
testing
to
protect
people,
and
that's
the
issue
of.
Do
you
test
people
who
are
asymptomatic?
C
Why
are
you
doing
that
use
nothing?
You
can
do
for
the
individual.
This
is
about
protecting
others,
though,
if
they
work
in
a
hospital
if
they
work
in
a
care
home.
Arguably,
if
they
live
lived
with
the
elderly,
certainly
if
they
live
with
a
shielded
individual,
you
could
make
that
case.
So
that's
the
case
from
for
testing,
asymptomatic
people,
the
question
and
your
view,
your
choice
of
things
for
the
diamond
princess,
absolutely
interesting
that
it
takes
me
back
to
my
original
point
that
was
early
on
in
the
epidemic
when
this
was
exploding
and
I.
C
Think
if
I'm,
remembering
right
about
60%
of
the
people
on
the
Diamond
Princess
was
wore
positive.
If
you
went
into
an
asymptomatic
group
or
an
asymptomatic
ship,
if
there
was
one
now,
it
would
be
single
figures,
very,
very
low
figures
and
the
utility
of
testing,
when
you
get
to
very,
very
low
cases,
brings
in
all
the
issues
of
the
fidelity
of
the
test,
whether
you're
getting
incorrect,
positives,
incorrect
negatives
and
so
on,
and
so
forth,
they're
big.
C
So
again
the
the
balance
of
the
judgment
as
to
whether
you
do
it
dangers
where
you
are
in
the
epidemic
curve,
and
it
is
a
very
fine
choice
if
you
were
to
do
a
symptomatic
testing
my
advice,
having
read
the
literature
and
talk
to
a
lot
of
people
about
this,
is
you
do
that
in
terms
of
who
they
are
going
to
be
a
risk
to,
and
if
you
identify
the
population
that
are
maximally
risk,
you
can
build
the
case
or
a
asymptomatic
testing.
It
does,
of
course,
bring
the
question.
Then.
C
How
often
do
you
then
repeat
the
test
and
their
very
real
complexities
around
that
and
there
isn't
there
isn't
a
there,
isn't
an
agreed
number
for
that
and
there
isn't
science
around
how
often
you
should
do
it,
whether
it's
once
a
week
once
once
a
day
once
every
fortnight
I
mean
it's
it
is.
It
then
becomes
a
matter
of
opinion
on
the.
How
often
do
you
go
on
repeating
I'll?
Stop
there
time.
J
That's
useful,
thank
you
and
to
keep
with
that
point
though,
and
you're
making
the
correct
point
that
and
when
you're
talking
about
asymptomatic
testing
mean
to
consider
who
individuals
are
at
risk,
which
takes
us
back
to
this
point
of
whether
we
should
be
routinely
testing
healthcare
staff
and
I,
accept
dr.
Smith's
point
or,
and
the
the
uncertainty
around
there's
the
evidence
bases
is
still
growing.
J
But
to
me
that
would
suggest
that
we
should
be
adopting
the
precautionary
principle
here
that
there
is
a
body
of
evidence
that
suggests
routine
testing
can
reduce
infection
can
reduce
transmission
by
by
up
to
a
third,
and
we
are
routinely
testing
care
workers
who
are
those
who
care
for
a
vulnerable
population
will
still
do
health
care
workers.
So
if
I
could
ask
a
specific
questions
to
dr.
J
Smith
about
the
advisory
group,
the
advisor
group
met
on
the
7th
of
million
and
the
Menace
of
that
meeting
noted
that
it
discussed
asymptomatic
healthcare
workers
and
these
symptomatic
transmission.
Then,
by
that
point
the
first
nosocomial
review
group
meeting
it
had
also
taken
place.
It
could
I,
then
ask
our
members
of
the
Scottish
Government's
advisory
group
recommending
routine
testing
of
healthcare
staff.
B
So
the
news
of
corneal
group,
which
is
as
you
see
is
a
subgroup
of
the
advisory
group,
is
considering
this
matter
at
this
very
time
the
the
jus
to
bring
forward
advice.
And
do
we
expect
that
the
base
to
be
with
ministers
or
the
coming
weeks
are
still
examining
all
their
business
associated
with
it.
But
but
I
am
aware
that
about
to
bringing
forward
does
basically.
J
Thank
you
and
then
just
one
final
question:
could
you
perhaps
explain,
then
what
the
confusions
been
caused
by
the
fact
that
the
government
has
already
adopted
a
policy
of
routine
testing
for
care
staff,
but
not
yet
taken
a
position
on
routine
testing
of
health
stuff?
Could
you
explain
what
why
there
is
a
difference
between
those
two
groups
and
why
why
it
was
possible
to
make
at
this
policy
decision
around
care
staff,
but
why
a
decision
has
still
not
been
made
and
an
evidence
is
still
being
considered.
Her
and
health
staff.
I
A
K
You
can
be
a
good
man
and
colleagues
good
morning
panel
and
we've
already
touched
on
the
sacrifice
that
the
general
population
has
has
made
in
terms
of
the
lockdown
and
the
harmful
effects
on
individuals
and
also
on
the
economy,
and
we
know
that
you
know
some
people
are
living
in
pain
because
planned
operations
and
procedures
haven't
been
able
to
go
ahead.
People
was
hip
and
knee
problems,
for
example,
and,
and
yesterday
the
health
said
secretary
said
she
was
waiting
for
recommendations
about
further
measures.
K
B
So
there's
a
variety
of
things
which
we
need
to
make
sure
and
then
please
to
make
sure
that
it's
safe
to
begin
those
take
a
routine
procedures
as
well.
Some
of
those
are
in
relation
to
making
sure
that
we
ensuring
that
the
immediate
environment
is
optimized
to
make
sure
that
any
infection
prevention
control
measures
are
all
in
place
that
patients
are
as
they're
coming
into
hospital
and
for
their
kind
of
treatment.
K
Thank
you
for
that
answer.
Can
I
just
change
tack
a
little
bit
and
talk
about
a
possible
if
there's
a
second
wave
of
the
virus
that
hits
us
and
I
think
the
world
explosion
was
used
at
one
point
earlier
today
about
possible
outbreaks,
and,
and
if
we
got
to
that
stage
and
we're
looking
at
it
as
an
oblique
in
an
area,
would
consideration
be
given
to
localized
reinforcement
of
the
lockdown
restrictions
that
we
have
in
place?
I.
B
Take
this
question:
just
there:
it's
it's
it's
it's!
What
we're
looking
to
do
is
to
develop
as
much
data
as
possible
that
informs
decision
making
and
that
decision-making
will
largely
be
taken
and
at
a
national
level,
but
there
may
be
some
in
terms
of
outbreak
with.
There
may
be
some
and
if
you
like,
less
consequential
decision
making
that
could
be
taken
and
level
I'll
use
the
we
use
the
example
of
a
school,
and
so,
for
instance,
and
if
we
approached
later
on
in
the
year
and
all
the
schools
are
back
in
place.
L
Good
morning,
colonel
and
the
cabinet
secretary
for
health
has
written
to
the
committee
this
week
about
the
health
protection
coronavirus.
International
travel,
Scotland
regulations,
which
came
into
force
on
Monday
and
I,
just
want
to
understand,
obviously,
as
a
four-nation
approach
requiring
people
to
self
isolate
for
14
days.
But
governments
are
already
under
pressure
to
relax
these
regulations
even
before
they
came
into
force.
So
how
will
the
evidence
be
gathered
to
inform
decisions
on
these
quarantine
measures
going
forward?
L
B
Shall
I
make
a
start
to
this,
and
then
professor
Krauss,
we
can
come
in
as
well,
then
you're
introducing
any
change
the
system.
You
need
to
be
able
to
assess
that
change
and
see
what
those
had
ascertained
intend
within
factors.
Well,
that
means
looking
at
the
range
of
measurements
associated
with
that,
though,
in
relation
to
the
quarantine
of
travelers
who
come
into
the
UK.
One
of
the
things
we
need
to
consider
is
was
the
existing
pool
of
infection
within
the
UK?
B
So
over
time
as
the
global
picture
begins
to
change,
you
might
find
that
that
approach
itself
needs
to
change
as
well
as
we
consider
that
the
kind
of
evidence
that
comes
through
from
not
telling
the
experience
of
many
countries
across
the
world
as
live
hard,
reducing
numbers
and
infections
and
others
as
we've
started
to
control
their
own.
And
if
you
like
domestic
epidemic
of
cases
and
moved
to
this
kind
of
more
sporadic
outbreaks
of
cases,
is
that
the
experience
has
been
that
the
travelers
can
sometimes
be
responsible
for
that
quotation
of
those
events.
B
For
instance,
we
know
that
our
own
experience
in
Scott
hood,
the
beginning
of
urban
experience,
that
it
was
multiple
importations,
mainly
from
continental
Europe,
that
introduced
the
disease,
various
points
and
well
over
100
points
across
Scotland
and
as
we
as
our
own
numbers
start
to
reduce,
and
if
there
are
countries
that
have
higher
levels
of
transmission
than
those
higher
numbers
of
cases,
then
the
nervous
begins
to
become
greater.
At
that
point,
the
team
as
well.
C
Should
I
come
just
a
little
bit
on
that
I'll
be
doing
the
absolute
agree
with
that
the
he
comes
back
to
what
I
said
earlier.
This
issue
of
will
either
is
a
rebound
or
whatever
coming
from
our
own
population
or
new
introductions,
and
this
issue
around
Border,
Patrol's,
quarantine
and
so
on
and
so
forth
is
dealing
with
the
issue
of
new
introductions.
How
do
you
measure
that
one
of
the
things
that
it
has
been
done
and
I
think
will
be
increasingly
important?
C
Is
the
forensic
analysis
of
viral
introductions
which
you
can
do
by
measuring
the
genetic
footprint
of
the
individual
viruses?
This
is
the
so
called
viral
genome
sequencing
and
because
there
are
minor
variations
in
the
virus
from
around
the
world,
you
can
actually
fingerprint
these.
So
there
is
scientific
method
that
will
be
able
to
say
whether
a
new
case
has
been
introduced
from
abroad
or
not
and
I.
Think
that
will
be
something
very
helpful
for
us
in
making
policy
around
what
one
of
the
most
difficult
issue
for
in
travel
and
how
that's
managed
I'll
stop
there.
C
L
L
I
think
it
was
a
BBC
around
a
flight
from
Doha
to
Athens,
where
obviously
the
government's
trying
to
reopen
its
flights
for
the
true
death
of
Industry
and
people,
everybody
on
that
flight
think
99
passengers
tests
were
tested
in
Doha
and
tested
negative
when
they
arrived
in
Athens
and
we
retested
12
of
them
tested
positive
for
cord
19,
which
I
found
quite
a
lot
an
alarming
case
in
itself,
though.
Well,
will
you
and
sage
be
looking
at
this
international
evidence
and
and
how?
B
So
III
don't
know.
The
particular
example
that
you've
described
that
you
described
there
perfectly
is
is:
is
the
the
fact
that
texting
is
not
the
panacea
to
controlling
the
spread
of
this
virus?
It's
helpful.
We
should
use
it,
but
we
must
understand
its
limitations
as
well,
and
it's
very
dependent
on
the
the
the
tests
been
taking
in
the
proper
way,
but
it's
also
very
dependent
on
the
case
being
taken
at
the
point
in
time
when
that
person
begins
to
shed
virus,
and
nothing
point
you've
demonstrated
there
is.
B
What
coach
has
what,
in
terms
of
reducing
the
number
of
X,
they
are
no
in
introductions
of
the
virus
into
their
population
from
from
alternative
sources
isolations.
Clearly,
one
of
the
the
key
mechanisms
by
which
you
can
do
that
and
a
transition
for
anyone
from
one
place
to
another
and
should
be
associated
with
an
isolation
because
of
an
incubation
period.
But
that's
only
one
way
of
mainly
in
terms
of
trying
to
manager
and
as
I,
say,
I
think
you're
right
in
that's.
L
It
just
finally
on
sage
I
mean:
is
there
any
consideration
being
given
to
establishing
a
Scottish
stage,
or
do
you
feel
that
the
structures
that
we
have
and
advisory
structures
are
adequate?
But
look
at
all
these
issues,
including
issues
like
international
travel,
quarantine
from
a
Scottish
perspective.
B
So
think
that
the
siege
structures
offer
as
a
huge
whale
of
expertise
drawn
from
all
four
nations
of
the
UK,
and
it's
not
just
the
sage
group
itself,
as
the
multiple
subgroups
of
sage,
which
are
importance
of
whether
that
be
left
tax
by
aims
might
be
mentioned.
Those
of
comeö
group,
the
care
homes
group.
These
are
all
important
powerhouses
to
the
either
develop
or
consent
of
the
evidence.
A
Okay,
Thank
You
Shauna
can
I
at
this
point
say
thank
you
to
our
three
witnesses
this
morning
or
their
evidence
to
the
committee.
It's
been
very
helpful.
We've
had
a
lot
of
detail
and
I
appreciate
your
time
particularly
had
a
very
busy
period.
The
committee
when
I
sustained
for
about
five
minutes
to
allow
a
great
panel.
Then
we
can
be
with
our
second
panel.
Thank
you
and
welcome
back.
We
will
continue
with
the
evidence
taking
on
options
for
easing
the
coronavirus,
lockdown
restrictions
and
I'm
very
pleased
to
welcome
our
second
panel
of
witnesses.
A
So
we
don't
miss
the
first
few
words
of
your
response
and
can
I
start
by
putting
a
question
to
Susie
fitting
please
for
inclusion
and
Scotland
and
in
your
written
submission.
You
see
that
during
phase
one,
some
key
public
services,
for
example,
respite
care,
children's
hearings
and
some
key
health
programs
will
also
begin
to
restart
their
work.
But
if
you
don't
had
any
details,
I
am
aware
of
as
to
when
or
how
these
services
will
restart
or
how
these
services
will
be
prioritized.
M
M
Disabled
people
who
were
shielding
who
had
pre-existing
mental
health
problems
that
were
triggered
by
anxiety
and
isolation
were
not
getting
the
mental
health
support
that
they
needed
and
was
stating
very
clearly
that
they
wanted
to
end
their.
So
it
was
very
deeply
affecting
and
brought
home
very
clearly
the
impact
of
Dervis
closure
and
cut
to
Social
Care
provision
in
terms
of
the
impact
on
individuals.
M
Disabled
people
who
live
alone
and
who
have
limited
social
networks
or
find
digital,
remote
communication
difficult
or
impossible,
find
it
very
difficult
to
access
online
mental
health
support
parents
of
young
or
adult
children
with
additional
support
needs,
who
report
very
stressful
experiences
of
being
in
lockdown
at
home.
Now
this
will
have
eased
from
for
some
by
the
move
into
phase
one,
but
it
will
still
be
the
case
for
those
who
are
shielding
or
at
high
risk
of
the
virus.
M
One
single
parent
of
two
disabled
children
describes
screaming
into
her
pillow
every
night
because
her
situation
at
home
had
become
so
frightening
and
intolerable.
She
told
us
that
her
child
was
hurting
herself
hourly
and
there
was
no
obvious
support
for
her.
So
we
see
that
child
and
adolescent
mental
health
support
is
absolutely
crucial
in
terms
of
resuming
services,
and
we
see
that
many
of
these
issues.
A
D
N
Us
too,
we
see
testing
as
being
of
great
significance
in
terms
of
giving
the
confidence
that
the
care
home
sector
and
the
home
care
sector
needs
to
move
into
phase
B
on
phase
one
interface.
Do
they
have
I
think
been
significant
improvements
in
the
testing
of
care,
home
staff
who
were
symptomatic
and
asymptomatic.
N
There
have
been
improvements
in
terms
of
the
testing
of
residents
in
homes
where
there
have
been
outbreaks
and
I
suspect
that
later
today,
the
data
will
illustrate
that,
but
we
share
the
cabinet
Secretary's
concern
that
the
peace,
the
consistency
of
that
testing,
particularly
moving
towards
ideally
one
week,
testing
for
care
home
staff
is
some
some
distance
away,
and
so
the
quick
answer
to
your
question
is
that
at
the
moment
the
Kiran
sector
isn't
confident
about
as
moving
into
Phase.
Two.
N
There
are,
in
addition,
concerns
around
the
practicalities
of
test
and
protect
and
how
that
may
impact
on
the
social
care
sector,
and
we
have
been
trying
for
some
time
to
get
our
direct
route
into
the
testing
staff
and
the
the
operational
element
of
that.
So
I
think
there
still
needs
to
be
improvement
in
how
the
experience
of
Social
Care
staff,
whether
they
be
in
the
community
or
indeed
in
care
homes,
impacts
and
influences.
The
testing
strategy
and
its
operationalization.
N
Scottish
care,
as
well
as
providers,
have
been
working
with
clinical
Stanford
government
to
prepare
guidance
for
visiting
and
I
would
hope.
There
would
be
an
announcement
on
that
and
the
process
in
the
very
near
future,
but
I
think
it's
fair
to
say,
convener
that
there
is
very
real
fear
in
the
sector.
N
Returning
if
you're
a
care
home
which
has
been
fortunate
and
not
experiencing
the
violent,
the
biters
you're
equally
anxious
about
opening
up
to
visiting
but
I
and
others
are
constantly
getting
letters
of
communication
for
family
who
are
desperate
to
reconnect
to
get
back
in
touch
with
their
family
member.
And
so
we
have
to
by
that
safety
and
virus
protection
against
the
need
to
restored
relationship
and
against
the
need
to
attend
to
the
psychological
health
of
individuals.
I
think
at
times-
and
this
is
fro
care
home
response
in
the
UK.
N
A
Thank
thank
you.
Thank
you,
there's
a
very
interesting
and
that
response
and
I
can
understand
you
know
for
for
residents
and
homes
who
feel
this
isolation.
You
know,
perhaps
they
are
more
open
to
the
idea
of
relaxing
the
restrictions
than
might
have
been
the
case.
Even
you
know,
a
month
or
two
months
ago,
right
we'll
move
on
a
large
number
of
colleagues
were
to
come
in
with
pursued
some
questions
and
we'll
start
with
Annabelle
Ewing.
Please
and
after
Annabelle
of
the
raw
Scalia.
H
Thank
you,
computer
and
good
morning
panel
and
I
had
a
first
question
for
Suzy
Fitz
and
just
really
in
light
of
very
troubling
evidence
that
she's,
given
the
committee
this
morning
and
I,
would
imagine
that,
of
course,
the
committee's
deliberations
will
very
much
be
looped
by
relevant
ministers
and
they
wish
to
pursue
some
of
these
matters,
but
just
as
a
really
to
change
that
my
understanding.
This
is
correct
to
the
point
of
information
as
well
and,
of
course,
I.
H
H
I
mean
I
referred
to
these
people
vulnerable
in
terms
of
my
constituents
in
case
Lords
and
I
know
that
many
of
these
people,
who
have
contacted
me
in
my
constituency
who
we're
disabled
or
or
fell
within
other
sub
headings,
if
you
like,
with
this
new
category,
didn't
obtain
help
with
getting
essential
food
and
medicine
and
indeed
being
connected
with
other
agencies.
And,
of
course
it
was
the
National
there
is
the
National
help
find
e
poi
801
one
four
thousand
number.
H
M
M
We
are
aware
of
the
specific
helpline
for
disabled
people,
who
are
who
are
struggling
to
get
access
to
food
and
medicine,
and
we
are
that
it's
extremely
welcome
that
that's
in
place,
I
think
in
relation
to
the
at-risk
or
what
is
deemed
to
be
the
vulnerable
group.
We
would
have
some
concern
about
the
use
of
the
term
vulnerable,
as
opposed
to
the
term
at-risk,
because
we
believe
that
that
disabled
people
are
not
inherently
vulnerable,
but
they
are
made
vulnerable
by
responses
to
the
crisis
that
don't
include
them.
M
M
M
Will
they
get
paid
leave
or
or
will
they
move
on
to
statutory
sick
pay?
What
happens
to
those
at-risk
people
when
the
furlough
scheme
ends?
Will
their
jobs
remain
open
or
will
employers
seek
to
lay
these
people
off
if
they
can't
return
to
work
in
a
feasible
time
if
an
employer
makes
reasonable
adjustments
and
makes
the
workplace
safe,
but
somebody
in
the
act
at
risk
group,
but
not
shielding
group,
believes
that
they
are
still
at
risk
and
will
their
contract
of
employment
be
frustrated?
H
It's
Susan
for
that
answer,
and
certainly
I
will
personally
undertake
to
draw
those
comments
to
the
attention
of
the
relevant
scholars.
Puppet
ministers.
I
didn't
actually
make
reference
to
this
and
I.
Take
your
point
at
risk
group
yesterday
and
the
speech
I
made
in
the
chamber
and
I've
certainly
undertake
to
do
that.
H
I'm
sure
your
inclusion
Scotland
will
continue
to
work
closely
as
the
the
homes
have
done
with
this
finished
government
on
that
point,
but
it's
a
point
well
I
mean
thank
you
for
reading
that
the
other
question
I
have
if
I'm
a
computer
is
to
dr.
dr.
McCaskill,
and
it's
looking
at
this
issue
from
a
slightly
different
perspective.
I
have
thought
for
some
years
back
to
actually
the
first
needs
you
know
in
terms
of
who
we
are
in
the
21st
century,
and
that
was
quite
a
bit
before
the
pandemic.
I.
Just
wonder.
H
N
Comparative
regulatory
bodies
across
the
UK,
and
indeed
continental
Europe,
is
that
the
cave
inspectorate's
have
a
range
of
Paris
wolf
of
intervention,
improvement
and
oversight,
which
is
at
the
at
the
highest
level
and
I.
Think
the
experience
of
many
care
providers
in
the
community,
and
indeed
in
care
homes,
is
that
throughout
this
experience,
unlike
me,
I
say
regulators
elsewhere,
the
cave
inspectorate's
have
been
extremely
supportive
of
intervened
where
there
were
clearly
identified.
Areas
of
risk
and
concern
have
been
in
frequent
contact
through
practical
advice
and
guidance.
N
The
significant
needs
which
are
older
and
sometimes
the
most
vulnerable
population
in
care
homes
have,
though,
I,
don't
believe
that
the
care
inspector
needs
enhanced
powers,
I,
think
the
emergency
powers
are
technical
ones
and
as
I've
communicated
directly
to
the
cabinet
secretary,
and
indeed
in
our
submission
to
this
committee,
we
were
supportive
of
those
emergency
powers,
but
they
weren't
power-switch,
Lee,
open
to
the
cabinet
secretary
and
senior
officials
should
they
see
who
they
wish.
Sir,
they
exercised
them,
regardless
of
the
new
legislation.
I.
H
H
I
would
have
thought
issues
about
registration
issued
by
operation
of
control,
issues
about
large
group
ownership
issues
where
there
has
been
a
failure
in
the
past,
but
the
same
people
can
come
along
and
set
up
another
care,
for
my
would
have
thought
actually
that
some
of
these
issues
would
be
worth
looking
at,
but
obviously
the
focus
today
is
specifically
on
easing
lockdown,
so
perhaps
their
other
colleagues
have
their
shot
now.
I
think
you.
A
Okay,
thanks.
Thank
you
either
bill.
Okay
can
I,
just
don't
just
make
a
couple
of
brief
points.
First,
I'll
just
remind
witnesses
that
just
take
a
pause
before
you
start
answering
the
question.
Otherwise
we
lose
the
first
few
words
of
your
response.
I
think
we
have
got
quite
a
lot
to
get
through,
and
so
we
try
and
keep
answers
as
short
as
possible,
but
that
will
be
very
helpful.
Although
I
appreciate
a
lot
of
detail
in
what
you
want
to
say,
we
will
move
on
to
Ross
Greer,
please
enough
to
Rosalie
on
the
company.
J
Thank
You
Kim
here
a
couple
of
questions
for
dr.
McCaskill,
I,
ruined
the
routine
testing
of
care
staff
or
that
being
the
policy.
The
the
numbers
of
tests
conducted
each
day
currently
suggest
that
that
policy
is
not
be
implemented
in
practice,
but
it's
no
longer
entirely
at
least
an
issue
of
overall
capacity.
We
have
an
overall
capacity
in
Scotland
to
conduct
something
the
region
of
15,000
tests
a
day,
but
often
in
recent
days
it's
been
three
or
four
thousand
tests,
including
what
should
be
routine
testing
of
care
home
staff.
J
Testing
of
anyone
in
the
population
is
symptomatic.
Anyone
over
the
age
of
seventy
being
admitted
to
hospital,
etc
and
I'm
wondering
if
you
could
give
a
little
bit
more
detail
on
what
the
logistical
barriers
seem
to
still
be
for
care
rooms
accessing
the
the
routine
testing
of
their
staff,
and
if
there
are
particular
variations,
are
there
some
health
boards
who
are
essentially
achieving
this
and
others
who
are
not?
Or
is
there
a
consistent
problem
across
the
country?
Here.
N
Why,
on
the
sorry,
I'll
start
again,
testing
weakens
to
be
extremely
important
and
that's
why,
in
the
29th
of
April
we
are
we.
We
asked
for
testing
of
all
symptomatic
residents
and
staff
testing
of
all
asymptomatic
staff
and
residents
that
that
latter,
one
has
not
been
achieved
to
date
and
their
announcements
on
the
first
of
May
and
the
18th
of
May
consolidated.
That
position,
since
they
important
we
have
seen,
is
across
the
14
health
boards
in
Scotland
a
very
diverse
approach.
N
So
we
have
some
health
boards
and
I
could
redeem
one,
but
I
would
save
their
blushes
where
there
has
been
collaborative
engagement,
involvement
with
key
rooms
in
the
area
where
they
have
now
completed
all
the
tests
of
residents.
All
the
tests
are
both
asymptomatic
and
and
and
staff
in
what
come
to
be
known
as
green
and
a
red
and
amber
Kate,
Holmes
and
I
know
back
out
on
a
routine
measure
doing
this
every
week,
so
that
shows
it
can
be
done.
N
However,
there
are
some
health
boards
which
even
yesterday
were
just
submitting
their
plans
for
activity
and
I.
Again,
I
will
not
mention
who
they
are,
but
no
doubt
the
data
which
will
be
published
today
and,
in
consequence
subsequent
weeks,
were
evidence
we're
the
labels
of
relative.
A
inability
are,
though
we
have
not
got
this
right.
N
Yesterday
in
the
phone
virtually
in
tears
about
the
fact
that
she
was
walking
to
work
and
everybody
was
getting
back
to
normal
know
that
he
was
socially
distancing,
nobody
was
wearing
masks
when
she
went
to
a
local
supermarket
and
it's
almost
as
if
the
rest
of
the
world
is
getting
on
with
life
and
the
care
sector
yet
again
seems
to
be
forgotten.
We
must
get
testing
rights.
There
are
clear
reasons
which
we
all
understand:
why
it's
not
working
and
it's
down
to
the
health
boards
to
get
it
like.
J
Thank
you
and
just
one
question
to
follow
up
on
that
about
the
tests
recent
isolate
approach
and
how
that
affects
care
homes.
If
we
do
quickly
get
to
this
point
of
the
routine
testing
of
care
home
staff,
that
will
obviously
result
in
more
positive
test
results
and
I'm
interested
in
what
the
work
force
implications
are
as
the
as
a
result
of
that.
J
If
a
member
staff
in
a
care
home
does
test
positive
and
not
only
are
they
required
to
isolate,
but
the
requirements
of
the
test
rates
and
isolate
approach
would
suggest
that
those
around
them
a
significant
number
of
other
staff
in
that
care
home,
would
then
be
asked
to
isolate,
as
well
as
the
is
the
sector
confident
of
workforce
capacity.
If
F
test
reason
isolate
is
to
get
up
and
running
effectively
and
quickly.
This
could
happen
to
a
number
of
homes
and
protecting
concentrated
areas
in
rapid
succession.
N
Partly
through
the
tool
developed
by
the
kid
inspector,
partly
through
the
enhance
support
through
directors
of
Nursing
in
public
health,
there
are
resilience
plans
being
drawn
up
for
each
care
home
in
each
health
board
area,
though,
that
if
the
testing
results
in
a
significant
loss
of
workforce,
those
can
be
made
a
to
date.
Even
whole.
Home
testing
has
not
evidence
the
significant
and
the
highest
level
of
lots
of
workforce
than
might
have
been
feared.
Clearly
as
we
move
into
test
and
protect,
and
this
becomes
a
wider
issue
for
the
whole
of
the
community.
N
Some
of
our
concerns
are
that
we
must
prioritize
social
care
staff.
For
instance,
in
a
household
Twitter
member,
a
family
has
been
a
tested
positive.
We
must
provide
enhanced
and
focused
support
to
enable
the
keyhole
worker
or
form
care
worker
to
be
tested
as
quickly
as
practicable
so
that
they
can
return
to
work.
N
J
G
Thank
you.
Can
you
know
if
I
can
start
with
Suzie
FETs
in
first
of
all,
and
thank
you
for
and
you
have
any
comprehensive
and
opening
remarks
and
your
answers
so
far.
The
the
survey
that
you've
mentioned
is
very.
Concerning
can
I
pick
up
on
the
ashes,
our
own
children
and
protect,
yellow
and
your
written
submission.
G
You
highlight
and
hope
additional
support
needs
and
and
and
the
care
and
particular
needs
that
they
have
especially
what
they're
missing
not
at
school,
and
you
seem
bored
about
what
you
would
like
to
see
and
in
the
RIP
map
or
in
the
the
lockdown
easement
plans
or
children,
young
people
and
in
particular,
and
can
you
say
something
about
the
the
impacts
on
disabled
children
who
who
are
shielding
and
who
have
not
had
contact
with
other
children,
young
people?
What
are
you
concerned
about
the
long-term
impacts
of
that.
M
We
would
like
to
see
the
emergence
from
lockdown
prioritizing
reopening
the
support
services
that
disabled
people
and
that
disabled
children
and
young
people
people
need.
So
we
would
like
to
see
obviously
the
resumption
of
day
Center
provision.
I
I
cannot
stress
this
enough,
though
men
parents
of
disabled
children
were
reporting
that
their
care
packages
at
home
for
their
children
had
been
reduced
or
stopped
completely.
M
M
So
there
are
real
real
kind
of
issues
here.
We
need
the
Scottish
Government
to
take
into
account
the
long
term
impact
of
lockdown
on
mental
health
for
parents
of
disabled
children.
We
need
some
acknowledgement
that
many
disabled
children
cannot
follow
social
distancing
rules,
though
we
saw
a
degree
of
flexibility
being
shown
by
the
Scottish
government
in
terms
of
their
guidance
on
social
distancing
slightly
earlier
in
the
lockdown.
There
was
an
acknowledgement
that
maybe
young
people
with
autism
or
with
other
conditions
that
made
it
very
important
that
they
take
regular
exercise
in
in
wide
open
spaces.
M
So
we
did
see
some
flexibility
in
relation
to
that,
but
what
we?
What
we
need
to
see
going
forward
is
an
acknowledgement
that
that
some
disabled
children
cannot
follow
social
distancing
rules
and
I
mean
I.
Don't
have
an
easy
answer
to
that,
but
I
think
we
need
to
acknowledge
it.
I
think.
We
also
need
to
acknowledge
that
families
of
disabled
children
and
children
with
additional
support
needs
are
under
particular
pressure
because
of
the
closure
of
leisure
centres.
Women
is
a
is
a
therapeutic
activity
for
many
of
the
children
and
also
for
adults.
M
Adult
I
know
your
question
related
to
young,
younger
disabled
people,
but
therapeutic
exercise
is
also
extremely
important
for
disabled
adults
and
particularly
those
managing
pain
conditions.
And
so
we
would
like
the
the
easing
of
restrictions
to
prioritize
the
opening
particular
may
be
at
priority
times,
or
at
particular
times
for
disabled
people,
who
need
to
take
a
therapeutic
exercise.
We're
seeing
disabled
people
reporting
a
significant
increase
in
pain,
which
is
impacting
on
mental
health
conditions
and
mental
health
reactions
to
the
crisis,
and-
and
we
know
that
therapeutic
exercise
is
extremely
important
for
many
disabled
people.
M
So
if
we're
going
to
look
at
a
phased
return
in
terms
of
local
authority
provision,
we
would
like
to
see
a
specific
attention
paid
through
opening
swimming
pools
for
people
who
previously
received
therapeutic
therapy.
Things
like
hydrotherapy
things
like
physiotherapy,
that
they
can
no
longer
get,
and
so
therapeutic
exercise
is
extremely
important.
G
Thank
you
very
much.
Susie
has
a
number
of
supplementary
questions,
but
I
think
you've
covered
all
I
can
owns
and
your
and
your
answers,
and
that
will
be
on
the
make
and
then
I'm
sure
that
ministers
will
be
at
less
than
very
carefully
too
so.
I'll
move
on
to
dr.
McCaskill
in
terms
of
of
Scottish
kid
and
care
homes
and
dr.
McCaskill.
G
If
I
can
first
of
all
ask
about
sec
p
and
what
for
staff,
I've
had
a
number
of
people
get
in
touch
who
are
not
able
to
access
full
sec
p
and
some
of
them
I've
had
to
see
if
I
silly
and
be
off
work
and
have
experienced
financial
detriment.
Can
you
give
us
an
update
in
terms
of
your
your
members
hope
how
many
of
them,
although
bill
sec,
p
as
a
benefit?
G
A
Ok,
listen
to
me
for
a
second
thought
of
a
castle
before
you
come
in
I
think
we
need
to
be
remember.
The
focus
for
these
questions
are
on
easing
lockdown
restrictions
and
I
think
we
have
to
be
slightly
careful,
we're
not
bringing
into
the
territory
of,
for
example,
the
Health
and
Sport
Committee.
You
might
want
to
pursue
these
sort
of
questions
so
so
by
all
means
answer
the
questions
on
the
McAskill
but
I've
just
said
to
Monica.
This
bear
in
mind
we're
maybe
looking
at
lock,
though
not
are
these
other
wider
issues.
N
Do
very
quickly
it
was
Lennon's
question
we
are
having
a
very
constructive
discussions
with
the
trade
unions
with
Khosla
and
Scottish
government
I
believe
that
the
final
settlement
of
these
issues
should
be
reached
by
Koslow
leaders.
Later
on
this
week,
there
have
been
a
number
of
very
purposeful
meetings
this
week.
Miss
lannen
and
other
members
of
the
panel
will
know
that
the
vast
majority
of
social
care
in
Scotland
is
paid
to
providers,
be
the
charitable,
not
they
not-for-profit
or
private
providers
by
the
state
by
local
authorities
and
Scottish
government.
N
The
National
caterham
contract,
which
keeps
cost
defined,
does
not
allow
providers
to
P
enhance
terms
in
terms
of
statutory
sickly.
Clearly,
organizations
like
ourselves
have
been
asking
for
a
change
in
that
for
years,
but
it
is
both
national
and
local
politicians
that
have
prevented
that
from
being
operationalized.
G
I'm
grateful
to
Donna
McCaskill
for
his
answer.
He
did
see
in
his
earlier
evidence
that
the
crisis
and
cleared
homes,
as
far
from,
although
we
know
that
testing
is
critical
to
moving
forward,
and
we
know
that
the
fear
and
I'm
day
it
has
been
a
huge
barrier
to
some
staff
and
accessing
hasting.
Can
I
ask
about
the
really
important
issue
about
the
resumption
of
hesitation
and
all
that
I
think
over
60%
of
kid
home
residents
have
domaine
shirts
been
a
huge
issue.
That's
been
raised
by
the
general
public.
Can
I
ask
dr.
G
McCaskill
in
terms
of
PPE
and
cotton
access?
Do
you
see
I
need
further
a
change
and
the
current
guidance
so
that
if
people
start
to
visit
kid
homes
again
that
that
they
should
system
out
and,
of
course,
be
weirding
dpe,
and
is
that
something
that
and
was
part
of
the
the
lot
same
plan
I?
Do
it
Matt
fun?
But
do
we
need
to
see
a
change
in
guidance
on
PP
so
that
everyone,
working
and
IQ
who
my
visiting
ID
at
home
has
access
accessible,
PPE
and
is
reading
it
and
as
much
as
possible?
N
N
This
is
what
troubles
me
about
the
last
few
weeks
we
have
had
thousands
of
individuals
locked
away
from
their
family,
their
friends
and
their
community
people
who
used
to
pop
in
at
different
times
of
the
day
and
now
not
able
to
see
their
relatives
except
through
through
windows.
The
sooner
we
can
restore
that
relationship
the
better,
but
we
have
to
balance
it
with
keeping
people
safe,
though
PPE
is
one
of
the
critical
mechanisms
to
enable
that
to
happen
and
we're
very
clear
strategy.
N
Kier
said
in
the
29th
of
April
that
we
believe
that
universal
wearing
of
masks
is
necessary
in
all
key
encounters
and
I
believe
and
expect
that
we
will
move
to
that
over
the
name
period
of
time.
We
need
to
protect
visitors,
we
need
to
protect
the
wider
community,
but
we
must
most
of
all
need
to
protect
the
residents,
but
protection
has
to
include
restoration
of
relationship.
G
N
It
will
be
a
bit
of
both,
depending
in
the
context
of
the
person
visited.
So
if
somebody
is
at
the
end
of
life
and
is
corvid,
then
it
will
the
person
who
visits
and
unfortunately
has
to
wear
really
full
PPE,
including
a
medical
mask
a-and
that
has
happened.
It
is
happening
and
a
it's
challenging
and
difficult,
but
it's
better
than
absence.
A
F
F
Firstly,
I
have
a
a
very
close
family
relative
who
occupies
the
senior
position
in
a
care
home,
albeit
that
they
are
currently
not
working
there,
because
the
shooting
and
of
course,
secondly,
because
I
am
over
70
I
am
categorized
as
vulnerable
I,
don't
get
any
in
that
matters,
but
it's
important
just
to
me
at
that
point
and
I
just
want
to
ask
dr.
McCaskill.
F
Why
so
many
care
homes
have
actually
done
extremely
well
through
this
and
kept
infection
beyond
the
doors
and
we've
had
a
lot
about
the
problems
we've
heard
rather
less
about
the
successes
and
I
think
it's
always
good
to
triumph
success
wherever
we
can,
but,
more
importantly,
to
learn
from
why
those
successes
we
have
successes
and
what
lessons
that
are
from
Lords
success
that
we
can
apply
right
across
the
industry
saw
that
as
we
move
forward
with
reducing
our
lockdown
measures
and
we
take
the
best
possible
path
for
for
care
homes.
Dr.
McCaskill.
N
Do
I
think
that's
a
very
complicated
question,
it's
one
which
clearly
exercises
the
key
room
sector
that
exercises
the
cabinet
secretary
and
the
clinical
group
concerned
with
key
Dawn's.
It's
a
question
we're
not
just
asking
in
Scotland
but
elsewhere.
Do
we
are
getting
evidence
that
one
of
the
things
that
influenced
this
is
the
size
of
the
keyhole?
Clearly
many
of
our
care
homes
are
residential
rather
than
nursing,
so
there's
a
different
community
and
a
different
level
of
needs
in
terms
of
a
residential
compared
to
a
nursing
key
home.
N
N
For
instance,
9
percent
of
those
who
tragically
died
in
our
hospitals
came
from
care
homes
in
Scotland,
but
the
comparative
figure
in
England
is
27
percent,
though
what
was
happening
there
at
different
stages
of
the
pandemic,
all
of
us
involved
in
the
care
of
citizens,
whether
it
be
the
frontline
nurse,
the
manager
of
a
care
home
the
operator
of
a
care
home.
We
want
to
learn
the
lessons
in
order
to
protect
people,
we're
still
learning
those
lessons.
N
We
are
absolutely
convinced
that
PPE,
the
quick
access
to
PP,
enabled
by
the
Scottish
Government,
the
early
lockdown
of
care
homes,
has
had
both
assisted
in
controlling
and
in
managing
the
virus.
Testing
is
the
next
arm
in
that
process
and
we
need
to
get
that
right,
but
as
we
move
forward,
all
of
us
will
be
reflecting
on
whoever
we
did
what
we
could
have
done
wherever
the
lessons
that
we
know
new
need
to
be
intrinsically
at
the
heart
of
any
other
pair.
Once.
A
K
M
M
Disabled
people
have
new
or
increased
caring
responsibilities
so
about
40%
of
disabled
people
who
responded
to
this
question
to
us
are
experiencing
challenges
with
caring
for
children
or
family
members
since
the
start
of
the
pandemic,
so
you've
got
a
reduction
or
complete
removal
of
support.
You've
got
suddenly
the
acquisition
of
new
or
increased
caring
responsibilities.
M
M
So
initiatives
like
vulnerable
shopping
chopper
lists
were
creating
extreme
anxiety
for
many
disabled
people
who
were
at
high
risk,
but
not
in
the
shielding
group,
and
so
they
were
unable
to
get
themselves
added
to
the
list,
particularly
in
the
early
stages
of
lockdown.
Many
disabled
people
had
been
already
reliant
on
food
deliveries
to
their
home
because
of
the
inaccessibility
of
the
built
environment
or
because
of
other
impairment
related
issues,
so
they
they
were
long
used
to
not
being
able
to
get
to
the
shops.
M
What
they
weren't
used
to
is
suddenly
having
a
complete
inability
to
secure
delivery
delivery
slots
or
receive
tailored
support
with
shopping
from
local
initiatives.
In
terms
of
accessing
medicine,
we
found
that
many
respondents
described
experiencing
significant
delays.
Getting
their
medication,
including
insulin,
very
worrying,
b12
injections
and
pain
relief
reasons,
given
were
that
chemists
were
unable
to
dispense
their
medication
or
appointments
for
medication
to
be
administered
were
counseled
and
pharmacists
dispensing
and
they
were
dispensing
smaller
amounts
of,
and,
though,
obviously
but
significant
difficulties
for
many
disabled
people
in
actually
getting
to
the
pharmacy.
M
So
I
would
say
in
such
circumstances
if
a
further
lockdown
was
initiated
because
of
a
second
wave
or
even
a
third
wave
of
infection
and
for
the
virus.
Without
sufficient
measures
in
place
to
ensure
disabled
people's
access
to
food
and
vital
medicine,
then
a
further
potentially
larger
crisis
could
result.
So
we
would
argue
that
involvement
of
disabled
people
in
their
organizations
in
emergency
planning
is
absolutely
vital
to
it
to
in
to
ensure
that
we
don't
see
further
issues
with
food
and
medicine.
We
will
keep
an
eye
on
this
issue.
M
We
know
that
there
have
been
efforts
to
address
it.
We
commend
supermarkets
for
priority
shopping
hours.
We've
had
less
positive
responses
from
disabled
people
about
their
experiences
in
supermarkets.
People
with
communication
support
needs
people
with
sensory
impairments
report
not
being
able
to
communicate
with
with
very
easily
with
supermarket
staff
because
of
the
necessity
for
staff
to
wear
masks.
Masks
are
obviously
a
real
impediment
to
disabled
people
who
need
to
lip-read.
For
example,
we
know
that
social
distancing
within
supermarkets
is
particularly
difficult
for
many
disabled
people.
M
People
with
mobility
impairments
find
it
very
difficult
to
queue
for
long
periods
of
time.
People
with
sensory
impairments
find
it
very
difficult
to
know
where
in
the
shop
they
can
go
unless
they
have
a
sighted
guide
that
proved
very
difficult
for
some
disabled
people,
when
only
one
individual
was
allowed
in
the
shop.
At
the
same
time.
So
we've
got
reports
from
disabled
people
that
they
received
less
welcoming
statements
from
staff
in
terms
of
meeting
their
access
needs.
M
K
You
Sussie
you've
actually
probably
preempted
what
my
next
question
was
going
to
be.
Is
you
know
if
there
was
a
second
wave
but
you've
already
highlighted
to
others
about
the
you
know,
we
need
the
reinstatement
of
Social
Care
at
home
and
to
prioritize
the
reopening
of
daycare
services
and
you've
highlighted
also
the
long-term
impact
of
long
lockdown
on
on
mental
health
services.
So
the
urgency
is
to
get
those
in
place
and
if
in
the
I
mean
we,
obviously
we
thought
there
won't
be
a
second
wave.
M
Am
I
sorry
I
always
tend
to
jump
in?
Let
me
let
me
start
again
and
I
think
it's
clear
that
that
there
has
been
some
some
some
excellent
response
to
do.
Many
of
the
issues
that
we
we
raised
in
our
initiative.
The
initial
findings
of
our
survey
and
I
think
the
Scottish,
Government
and
I
commend
the
Scottish
government
for
their
clarity
of
message.
M
Perhaps
the
only
significant
emission
for
us
is
disabled
people
at
high
risk
who
are
not
classed
as
shielding
as
I've
mentioned
before.
I.
Think
this,
this
cohort
of
disabled
people
is
is
actually
much
larger
than
the
shielding
group
includes
people,
older
people,
people
over
70
people
over
60
with
hypertension
people
with
diabetes
people
with
blood
disorders.
M
So
it
could
be
up
to
a
million
people
who
are
at
risk
of
the
virus,
but
these
people
need
a
similar
focus
and
we
need.
We
need
to
think
about
the
advice
and
the
guidance
that
we
give
them.
We
need
to
think
about
the
impairments,
specific
guidance
that
we
give
to
disabled
people.
Will
the
response
be
different?
M
I
think
we
have
learnt
a
great
deal
and
in
terms
of
where
we
are
now
I,
think,
we've
started
to
learn
what
works
and
what
doesn't,
and
we
warmly
welcome
the
very
clear
commit
to
human
rights
within
the
route
map
that
the
Scottish
government
have
produced
equality
and
social
justice
as
we
consider
options
to
relax
restrictions.
I
think
what
we
need
to
be
clear
about-
and
this
is
one
of
the
reasons
that
we
surveyed
people
in
the
first
place.
M
We
wanted
to
make
sure
that
we
were
gathering
experiences
from
disabled
people
actually
on
the
ground,
as
they
can
at
times
be
a
gap
between
positive,
very
positive
policy
intention
and
disabled
people's
experience
on
the
ground.
Now
this
is
probably
most
dark
in
relation
to
the
provision
of
Social
Care
support,
because
we
saw
the
the
Health
Minister
can
announce
that
local
authorities
should
not
be
cutting
back
on
care
in
this
crisis
and
that
there
was
a
commitment
for
further
investment
in
Social.
M
There's
a
distinct
lack
of
trust
from
disabled
people
that
their
care
will
ever
be
reinstated.
I
think
many,
many
of
you
will
be
aware
from
your
constituency
work
that
disabled
people
face
extreme
frustration
and
barriers
in
terms
of
the
assessment
process
for
Social,
Care,
Support
and
ash
actually
getting
the
support
that
they
need.
So
there
is
a
lack
of
trust
that
this
care,
in
fact,
will
be
reinstated
at
some
point,
so
I
think
we
would
like
some
reassurances
in
this
regard.
A
L
You've
really
confirmed
that
those
most
at
risk
from
the
violets
are
also
those
most
at
risk
of
the
consequences
of
lockdown,
so
as
lockdown
eases
and
you've,
given
a
lot
of
evidence
this
morning
around
the
priorities
that
you
see
for
lose
that
you
represent
and
that
you're
in
contact
with-
and
you
talked
a
fair
bit
about,
D
services
and
Support
Services
resuming
in
a
safe
manner
and
I
just
wanted
to
ask
you,
and
that
is
important.
If
families
are
going
to
have
confidence
in
those
services,
they
have
to
believe
that
they're
safe.
L
So
how
much
contact
and
consultation
are
you
aware
of
that
is
happening
with
those
families
around?
What
a
safe
manner
will
mean,
because
it
seems
to
me
logical
that
there
would
be
consultation
and
there
can
rebuilding
some
of
those
services
in
a
different
way
that
have
the
confidence
of
the
families
using
them.
So
what
are
you
aware
of
that
happening?.
M
So
I'm
aware
that
I've
been
made
aware
recently
that
other
third
sector
organizations
are
looking
to
consult
their
members
about
the
resumption
of
daycare
services,
particularly
for
adults
with
learning
disability.
I
know,
for
example,
that
the
Scottish
Commission
on
learning
disability
is
looking
to
involve
us,
but
also
other
stakeholders
and
parents
and
families
in
this.
M
But
to
my
knowledge,
that's
not
that's
my
only
knowledge
of
an
effort
to
involve
parents
and
families
in
how
services
resume
and
how
day
center
services
resume
safely
now.
I
think
this
is
actually
an
overarching
point
for
us
and
a
key
issue
for
us
is
the
long
terms
Staind
investment
in
involvement,
though
disabled
people
need
to
be
involved
in
the
planning.
We
need
to
be
involved
in
the
emergence
from
covert
19.
We
have
worked
for
a
long
time
to
establish
models
whereby
disabled
people
can
be
involved
in
the
development
of
policy.
M
We
have
people
led
policy
panels,
for
example
that
have
very
effectively
influenced
the
direction
of
adult
social
care
reform
in
Scotland,
by
working
with
the
Scottish
Government
and
with
kossler
and
with
other
partners.
So
that's
a
panel
of
50
disabled
people
with
different
experiences
of
Social
Care
support.
It
includes
older
people.
It
includes
people
with
a
variety
of
experiences,
so
service
users,
who
have
over
an
extended
period
given
they've,
effectively
drawn
up
a
blueprint
blueprint
for
adult
social
care
reform.
M
We've
seen
experience
panels
influenced
the
direction
of
travel
in
relation
to
the
new
social
security
system
in
Scotland,
so
we've
seen
models
whereby
the
involvement
of
disabled
people
has
led
to
the
development
of
policy
meets
their
needs
and
I.
Think
this
form
of
involvement
is
absolutely
crucial
here.
M
So
many
of
them
will
be
extremely
keen,
but
a
sensor
services
to
reopen
what
we
need
to
find
out
is
what
they
consider
to
be
safe
provision
in
this
context
and
I.
Think
I'm
not
aware
that
there's
any
wholesale
efforts
to
consult
families
in
this
area
I
mean
we
will
certainly
investigate
that
and
come
back
to
you.
A
I
Thanks
very
much
Medora
I
only
got
the
the
one
question
and
it's
for
dr.
McCaskill.
If
I
can
please
hey
dr.
McCaskill,
presumably
the
health
testing
policy
will
carry
on
for
as
long
as
it
hostage
as
we
move
through
the
different
phases
of
eating
I
mean
not
in
respect
of
care
homes,
but
I
wanted
to
ask.
You
was
of
help
from
two
local
people
about
the
symptoms
of
less
violence
amongst
our
patients
who
have
dementia
and
sometimes
it
can
be
observed
amongst
those
patients.
Behavioral
changes,
perhaps
as
an
indicator
of
the
presence
of
the
virus.
I
N
Thank
you
for
that
question,
and
the
quick
answer
is
yes.
The
way
in
which
this
the
pernicious
virus
presents
itself
to
ordered
individuals
Percy,
but
particularly
to
people
living
with
dementia,
and
we
now
know
that
probably
in
excess
85%
of
people
in
our
care
homes
are
living
with
dementia
at
some
stage
the
much
higher
figure
than
we
had
previously
thought.
We
know
that
the
way
it
presents
is
very
different
to
the
classic
symptoms
which
we've
all
grown
used
to
the
persistent
cough,
the
loss
of
taste
and
smell,
etc.
So
there
are
mood
changes.
N
They
are
a
which
is
difficult
to
determine,
because
the
full
process
of
lockdown
has
resulted
in
the
change
of
moods
of
individuals.
People
who
quite
literally,
have
turned
their
face
to
the
wall
who've
gone
into
themselves,
but
there
are
changes
in
moods.
People
go
off
their
food
people
a
present
differently
in
terms
of
their
general
health,
with
regards
to
aspiration
with
vowels,
etc.
Though,
there
is
a
lot
of
gathering
evidence
to
show
that
this
pernicious
virus
presents
differently
to
its
most
vulnerable
population.
That's
been
determined
internationally.
N
I
know
that
the
a
professor
of
a
Mammoth's
from
the
chief
chief
medical
office
is
doing
a
lot
of
work
in
this
area
to
work
with
the
sector
so
that
we
are
better
able
to
identify
the
early
stages
of
when
an
individual,
unfortunately
has
developed.
The
virus
that
will
impact
on
testing
and
testing
will
remain.
I.
Think
the
the
the
interesting
thing
which
we
need
to
begin
to
explore
is
the
presentation
of
the
virus
with
people
on
with
living
with
dementia
in
their
own
homes
in
the
community.