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A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
20th
meeting
of
the
committee
in
2019,
I'd
like
to
the
main
members
and
the
public
to
turn
off
mobile
phones
and
any
members
using
electronic
devices
to
access
committee
papers
should
please
ensure
that
they're
turned
to
silence.
I.
Have
the
pleasure
of
welcoming
to
new
committee
members
this
morning?
A
You
very
much
the
first
item
on
our
agenda
is
an
evidence
session
with
officials
from
national
records
of
Scotland
on
the
preparations
for
the
draft
census
order
and
from
NRS.
We
are
joined
by
Amy
Wilson,
the
director
of
statistical
services,
Scott
McEwen,
head
of
policy
legislation
and
engagement,
jill,
martin
senior
business,
lead
questions
and
collection
instruments,
and
they
are
accompanied
by
scott
matheson,
the
senior
principal
legal
officer
for
the
scottish
government
and
I'd
like
to
invite
Amy
Wilson
to
make
a
short
opening
statements.
Thank
you.
C
Thank
You
convener-
we're
very
happy
to
be
here
today
to
discuss
Scotland's
2021
census
to
support
the
committee's
consideration
of
the
draft
census
order
and
the
accompanying
documents.
National
records
of
Scotland
has
already
been
working
over
several
years
to
develop
a
high
quality
census,
the
next
of
which
is
planned
for
the
sunday
21st
March
2021.
C
C
At
the
same
time,
it
tells
us
who
we
are,
how
we
live
and
how
we
work
in
Scotland
and
essentially
reflects
the
society
in
which
we
live
and
Scotland
has
relied
on
the
information
on
the
census
for
over
200
years,
and
it
remains
the
best
way
to
gather
much
of
the
information
required
by
government
councils,
then
Health,
Service
and
other
users.
National
records
of
Scotland's
core
purpose
is
to
collect,
preserve
and
to
produce
information
about
Scotland's
people
in
history
and
we're
very
proud
of
the
achievements
through
the
census.
C
The
first
one
in
1801,
and
indeed
through
all
the
other
statistics
that
we
produce-
and
we
wish
this
to
continue
for
2021
and
beyond.
This-
includes
ensuring
privacy
is
protected,
along
with
census
records
being
held
securely
and
confidentially
census.
Outputs
are
essential
to
support
decision-making
from
national
to
local
level,
including
allocating
funding
for
schools,
education,
hospitals
and
infrastructure.
Having
accurate
and
reliable
data's
at
the
heart
of
the
census,
billions
of
pounds
of
public
funds
are
allocated
in
some
way
through
the
status
that
must
be
credible
and
people
must
have
confidence
in
it
to
take
decisions.
C
As
you're
aware,
the
approach
we're
taking
with
the
sensor
order
follows
on
from
the
parliamentary
committee
recommendations
from
the
2021
census,
where
the
committee
asked
the
Scottish
government
to
simplify
the
procedure
for
future
censuses.
That
is
why
we're
starting
the
Englishman
early
with
committee
for
the
census,
with
the
aim
of
dealing
with
all
the
matters
before
the
formal
process
begins.
C
Whilst
this
current
process
may
be
considered
the
informal
stage,
please
be
assured
it's
very
much
official
engagement
with
yourselves
my
letter
of
fifth
September,
provided
you
with
the
draft
census
order
and
accompanying
documents
for
discussion
today
and
for
your
consideration
of
the
coming
weeks.
The
draft
order
reflects
the
approach
we're
proposing
for
the
census
in
2021,
and
the
accompanying
documents
provide
more
information
to
support
that,
including
the
proposed
guidance
for
respondents
when
completing
the
questionnaire
planning
for
the
census
is
progressing
well,
and
our
rehearsal
is
only
one
month
away.
C
There
are
some
matters
still
being
finalized,
which
will
be
highlighted
through
our
discussion
today,
and
the
rehearsal
itself
will
provide
some
excellent
feedback
for
our
readiness
and
the
approach
being
taken.
Testing
on
many
fronts
are
still
ongoing,
including
the
sex
question,
guidance
and
I,
provided
an
update
on
that
with
my
letter.
This
is
all
being
done
to
ensure
that
we
deliver
the
best
possible
census
to
Scotland's
households
in
2021,
which
in
turn
provides
the
best
possible
data
for
our
country.
C
By
asking,
the
questions
which
reflect
Scotland
as
it
is
today
will
ensure
that
the
census
will
continue
to
be
a
vital
source
of
information
for
decades
to
come.
So
I'd
like
to
end
by
reassuring
the
committee
today
that
national
records
of
Scotland
will
work
closely
with
to
deliver
the
legislation
that
will
allow
their
census.
We
all
wish
to
see
for
Scotland
in
2021.
The
recent
census
bill
demonstrated
the
interest
in
census
matters
and
I.
Thank
you
for
your
support.
C
A
You
very
much
Amy
for
that
comprehensive
introduction
and
can
I
say.
Obviously
this
committees,
engagement
on
the
census,
has
been
shaped
by
our
consideration
of
the
bill
and
we
have
had
a
lot
of
correspondence
over
the
last
few
days,
principally
around
similar
issues
with
regard
to
the
sex
question
and
that's
what
my
a
questions
are
going
to
be
about
initially
and
just
a
few
things
I
wanted
to
ask
you
about.
A
A
Paper
and
I
should
put
on
record
that
I'm
very
happy
with
that
too,
and
when
you
had
originally
considered
the
census
topic
consultation
back
in
2016
and
there
was
you
weren't,
proposing
a
transgender
question
that
I
actually
came
to
you
via
stakeholders,
and
now
here
we
have
one
on
the
census
for
the
first
time.
So
would
you
say
that
that's
a
substantial
win
for
the
organisations
of
a
campaigning
for
a
transgender
question-
AJ,
yes
or
no
is
fine.
C
A
From
the
officer
National
Statistics,
a
2021
census
topic
research
update
in
December
2018.
They
state
that
regarding
the
gender
identity
topic,
this
is
a
developing
area
of
research
in
many
countries.
Currently,
no
European
country
collects
gender
identity
data
in
their
census.
I.
That
suggests
that
you
know
we
are
really
ahead
of
the
curve
by
having
this
transgender
identity
question.
Yes,.
A
C
A
Thank
you
very
much
for
that
and
sex.
As
you
see,
em
is
a
key
demographic
variable
which
has
been
asked
since
its
in
one
and
in
your
own
sex
and
gender
topic
and
people
you
see,
there's
a
well-established
user
need
for
sex
data,
it's
a
vital
input
to
population,
household
and
other
demographic
demographic
statistics
which
are
used
by
central
and
local
government
to
inform
resource
allocation
and
carry
out
service
planning
and
delivery.
A
It
was
quite
quite
difficult
to
find,
and
no
of
course
we
have
a
transgender
question.
So
there
is
a
question
mark
us
whether
this
guidance
is
needed
at
all
and
you've
been
aware
that
our
number
of
lead
statisticians
and
data
users
see
the
self-identified
sex
question
will
damage
data
and
we
took
evidence
from
Professor
Susan
McVie
from
Edinburgh
University,
the
last
time
who
believed
that
was
a
mistake.
A
But
as
of
yesterday,
we
have
received
a
letter
from
professor
Nick
Bailey
of
the
University
of
Glasgow
and
signed
by
seven
other
social
science,
researchers
and
there's
professor
Joel
Fatih
Professor
Susan
Fitzpatrick,
professor
Christina
Anneli,
professor
Sarah
Johnson,
and
professor
Murdoch
Trina
and
Beth
warts
at
heriot-watt,
and
their
letter
makes
it
clear
that
they
support
the
transgender
question
and
believe
it'll
be
very
useful.
But
they
believe
a
self-identified
sex
question
will
inhibit
inhibit
and
their
view
to
quote
them
our
ability
to
monitor
sex-based
discrimination
and
disadvantage.
C
Is
the
first
time
so
thank
you
for
bringing
that
to
our
attention.
That's
the
first
time
we
haven't,
we
haven't
been
in
touch
with
them
and
they
haven't
been
in
touch
with
us.
So
the
answer
to
that
question
is
yes,
we
will
engage
with
with
them
absolutely
what
I
would
say
about
2011
is
that
the
data
there
have
been
suggestions,
obviously
that
for
them
was
done
in
2011
damaged
the
quality
of
the
data.
C
However,
it
obviously
is
a
concern
for
people,
so
we
will
continue
to
engage
and
I
think
what
we
have
recognized
in
this
time
round
is
that
the
effect
of
using
the
guidance
and
providing
the
guidance
we
don't
understand
enough
about
what
that
does,
which
is
why
we're
doing
the
testing
that
we're
doing
at
the
moment
to
understand?
Actually,
how
much
does
em,
either
not
looking
at
the
guidance
or
having
different
versions
of
the
guidance
affect
the
way
that
people
actually
respond
to
this
question
and
I?
C
Think
it's
really
only
when
we
have
the
information
from
that
that
we
will
fully
understand
whether
we
get
anything
different
from
using
different
versions
of
the
guidance.
The
other
thing,
I
would
probably
say,
though,
is
that
the
the
supposition
in
that
is
that
discrimination
only
happens
on
a
biological
ground
and
I.
C
Don't
think
that
necessarily
is
what
many
of
our
users
will
come
back
to
and
see
to
us
in
terms
of
what
they're
trying
to
measure
in
terms
of
discrimination,
because
it
can
be
on
the
basis
of
perception
as
well,
so
I
think
what
we
are
trying
to
do
through
the
census.
Question
is
meet
a
broad
range
of
user
needs,
some
of
which
may
be
actually
more
akin
to
someone's
biology,
but
some
of
which
might
be
much
more
to
do
with
perceptions
and
how
people
are
seen
by
others.
A
A
C
A
A
A
C
That
is
a
fair
point
and
I
think
we
know
how
it
affected
the
data
in
2011
and
what
I
certainly
would
see
is
I
see
from
looking
at
the
data
and
the
Quality
Assurance
we
don't.
There
was
no
evidence
to
suggest
that.
Actually
we
started
to
see
different
trends
from
anything
that
had
happened
in
the
past,
but
I
think
you're
right.
We
don't
know
how
it
affected
and
how
many
people
actually
looked
at
the
the
guidance
in
2011,
and
you
know
yeah.
A
C
D
With
the
methodology
agreed
and
you're
right
when
we
hit
the
stakeholder
events
around
the
tasting
area,
sort
of
figure
was
around
5,000,
its
6,500
households
were
targeting
for
the
general
population
and
we
are
advertising
through
a
broad
variety
of
organizations
that
that
might
touch
on
the
trans
community.
So
it's
not
necessarily
just
you.
A
You
will
recruit
the
trans
respondents
through
organizations
you're
aware
through.
This
committee
is
very
aware
that
these
organizations
have
very
very
strong
views
about
the
subject
so
you're
recruiting
people
for
testing
exercise
through
organizations
that
have
very,
very
strong
views
about
the
questioners
already
do
what
you
think
that
that's
liable
to
damage
that
we
you
collect
the
data
and
outcomes
testing.
C
We
are
partly
recruiting
through
them,
but
we
are
we're
being
very
open
to
the
way
they're
recruiting.
So,
for
example,
we've
been
in
touch
with
the
NHS.
We
are
looking
at
whether
gender
clinics
can
actually
help
as
well
and
we've
been
very
open
to
all
stakeholders
to
say
that
we
would
be
keen
for
anyone
who
wishes
to
be
involved
in
the
testing
because
you're
absolutely
right.
We
want
to
have
as
broad
a
range
of
people
from
the
trans
community
and
to
hear
there
was
broad
range
of
voices
as
possible.
C
E
So
just
have
a
question
about
how
that
would
then.
So,
if
someone's
trying
to
sin,
it
can
be
so
it's
still
the
choice
of
the
person
so
it'd
be
difficult.
I
can't
see
how
that
if,
when,
if
they
decide
to
answer
the
volunteer
trans
question,
how
that
might
give
you
enough
evidence
on
the
answer
to
the
state's
question
that
they
interacts
that
you
could
work
out
if
the
users
of
the
date
I
wanted
to
work,
they
could
work
out
I'm,
just
not
sure
the
questions
into
that.
D
Interaction
there
is
specifically
around
how
respondents
approach
and
understand
what
the
questions
are
asking.
So
that's
something:
we've
tested
quite
a
lot,
so
what
we
did
find
and
across
all
of
the
testing
we've
done
on
this
as
different
people,
approached
the
six
question
with
different
understandings
for
the
majority
of
the
population.
They
don't
distinguish
between
any
of
the
sort
of
definitions
for
wonderful,
better
word
of
the
six
question
that
we've
been
looking
at
for
census:
development.
D
Seeing
that
that
question
was
there
sort
of
can
change
how
they
might
approach
the
sex
question.
So
it's
that
again,
the
similarly
with
the
sexual
orientation
question,
knowing
that's
there
and
being
able
to
see
that
that's
there
changes
the
way
people
approach
this
across
the
set
of
those
three
questions.
So
it's
not
that's
about
how
people
are
going
to
answer
the
question
rather
than
an
interaction
for
data
users,
so.
E
There'll
be
the
so,
the
sort
of
people
were
using,
so
it's
not
for
data
users
because
it
would
be
it'd
be
difficult
to
then,
if
it's
the
person's
choice,
you've
kept
it
because
you're
not
really
a
direct
number
see.
This
is
what
you're
meant
to
do.
It's
seen,
it
could
be
different.
It's
up
to
you,
I
just,
don't
see
how
that
helps,
collect
accurate
data
or
what
how
you
can,
how
data
users,
what
information
they
can
take
from
that.
E
Apart
from
we,
don't
really
know
how
this
person's
answered,
but,
but
maybe
I,
think
you're
going
to
do
taste.
We
can.
We
can
I
think
next.
We
even
provide
opportunity
for
us
to
see
how
the
forum
operates.
That
might
help
one
understands
another
daily
around
the
two
choices
was
around
the
advice
you
give
to
people
who
identify
as
non-binary
and
there's
two.
E
They
can
either
says
if
you're
non-binary
and
not
sure
how
to
answer
you
could
use
the
sex
registers
on
your
official
documents,
such
as
your
passport
driver's
license
and
then
states
there's
a
question
to
pick
trans
another
one
says
it
just
says
you
can
yeah
it
doesn't
give
as
much
detail.
Don't
know
why
you've
chosen
two
different
options
for
the
advice
for
the
guidance
if
you're
a
non-binary.
Why
is
that
different
and
the
two?
If.
C
E
Then
you've
got
two
options.
One
was
says:
if
your
nan
Bailey
and
not
sure
how
to
answer
a
set
of
questions,
you
could
use
the
sex
registered
on
your
official
documents,
such
as
your
passport,
your
driver's
license,
then
the
next
question
about
translators
in
history
and
then
the
alternative
proposed
gains
has
been
tested
just
says.
The
next
question
is
a
question
about
trans
States
in
history.
You
could
respond
as
non-binary
in
this
question.
So
there's
no
advice.
E
C
What
that
is
so
we
worked
in
these
questions
and
the
guidance
with
stakeholders
from
both
women's
groups
and
also
from
equality
in
groups
to
make
sure
that
actually,
what
we
were
then
going
to
be
testing
would
make
sense
to
people,
and
that
was
very
much
as
well
came
back
from
the
stakeholders
about.
There
was
no
need
to
provide
any
information
for
non-binary
people
in
that
guidance,
because
it
would
not
be
applicable
right.
E
Okay,
so
the
suggestion
has
the
first
set
of
the
first
guidance
that
is
suggesting
to
non-value
to
people.
You
can
answer
it
as
you
have,
as
you
have
identified
yourself
in
a
passport
or
driver's
license,
and
the
second
one,
although
it
doesn't
see
it
as
expecting
people
to
register
it's
what's
on
their
birth
certificate,
but
it
doesn't
see
it.
But
if
you're
it
doesn't
say
that's
what
you
do.
It
just
says
you
can
respond,
doesn't
tell
and
on
mainly
the
person
what
to
do
in
the
saying
suggested
guidance.
E
C
E
To
that
can
just
ask
because
you've
said
to
the
convener
you
denotation
of
the
guidance,
what
what's
the
what's
the
week?
That's
put
on
the
test,
and
you
do
that
just
that
this
is
the
proposal.
It
gets
the
most
responses,
so
this
is
the
one
review
thing
or
other
factors
that
influence
a
decision
on
which
things
you
use
I.
Think.
C
C
Actually
we
don't.
We
didn't
understand
in
2011
how
the
guidance
affected,
how
people
responded
and
I
think
all
of
these
things
will
need
to
be
looked
at
to
actually
understand.
Is
it
acceptable
to
people?
Does
it
change
and
depending
which
version
of
the
guidance
you've
got?
What
is
it
you're?
Actually
measuring
so
I'll?
Let
Jill
answer
at
about
the
time
skills.
D
F
G
F
At
this
sorry,
my
lord
by
choice,
I,
can't
help
looking
at
this
from
an
a
priori
perspective.
Okay,
so
in
the
new
news,
the
latest
version
of
the
proposed
questions
you
have
question
four:
okay,
do
you
consider
yourself
to
be
trans
or
have
a
trans
history?
Okay,
and
then
you
go
on
to
see
explicitly.
Trans
is
a
term
used
to
describe
people
whose
gender
is
not
the
same
as
sex.
They
were
registered
at
birth.
Okay,
that's
question
for
proceeding.
That
is
question
three,
which
is
what
is
your
sex
female
male?
F
So
my
question
would
be:
how
could
you
possibly
have
a
definition
of
sex
that
is
other
than
registered
at
birth
in
the
interest
of
consistency,
because
the
equation
for
your
key
point
is
sex
registered
at
birth?
So
how
could
you
issue
guidance?
The
question
3,
which
isn't
in
accordance
with
the
position,
a
question
for
I.
H
This
is
not
entirely
a
legal
point,
but
a
computer
I'm
not
entirely
sure
that
I
understand
the
premise
of
the
the
members
question
here
a
if
the
member
is
suggesting
that
the
the
guidance
the
first
option
of
the
oh
sorry,
the
second
option
of
the
the
guidance
which
talks
about
prevailing,
the
the
answer
being
the
same
as
on
the
the
birth
certificate.
But
then
going
on
to
talk
about
a
gender
recognition
certificate.
Now
gender
recognition
certificate
will
have
the
effect
of
changing
what
is
on
one's
birth
certificate.
H
F
Respect
I'm,
not
it's
all
suggested
like
what,
and
it
is,
as
you
see
at
the
legal
position,
that
the
gender
red
red
recognition
certificate
would
supplant
any
prior
document
not
as
well
understood.
That
is
the
axiomatic
legal
position.
Rather,
my
question
is:
how
could
you
possibly
issue
guidance
in
accordance
with
the
current
language
you
have
equation,
for
that
would
suggest
that
sex
could
be
defined
as
anything
other
than
sex
registered
at
birth.
I.
Just
don't
understand
from
legal
perspective,
how
you
can
have
such
apparent
lack
of
consistency
between
question
3
equations,
alright,
but.
F
What
is
your
sex
have
guidance
that
suggested
other
than
sex
right
at
birth
and
clearly
the
gender
recognition
certificate
is
a
bit
of
a
red
herring,
because
that
is
a
legal
position
that
is
well
understood.
Maybe
the
NRS
would
wish
to
reflect
on
that
point.
Further.
I
think
it's
a
fundamental
inconsistency
as
a
matter
of
law
and
I.
Think
really,
given
that
this
is
a
to
be
the
gold
standard
of
statistical
data
collection,
I,
don't
think
that
really
could
could
obtain
as
a
matter
of
law.
It
just
doesn't
really
work
for
me.
A
You
could
maybe
confirm
that
this
is
the
case.
Also,
the
fate
of
a
gender
recognition
certificate
is
to
change
the
birth
certificate.
So
if
you
have
a
gender
recognition
certificate,
you
can
change
your
birth
certificate.
That's
completely
different
from
what
you're
proposing
with
a
sex
question
you're
proposing
that
people
can
answer
the
sex
question,
even
if
they
don't
have
our
gender
recognition
certificate
that
changes
their
birth
certificate.
You
you
know
like
that's,
so,
there's
two
classes
of
people.
A
C
That
is
a
question
that
we
could
ask,
but
I
mean
I,
think
we
would
need
to
understand
that
is
likely
to
lead
to
quite
different
data.
From
what
we've
asked
in
the
past
and
again,
it
is
asking
a
more
specific
question,
I
think
than
the
question
which
we
are
currently
proposing,
which
is
what
is
your
sex?
So
if
that
were
to
be
the
case,
then
we
would
need
to
understand
exactly
what
the
faked
I'm
asking
that
question
would
be
and
I
think
what
we
are
reflecting
is
that
from
the
data
users
needs.
F
Point
about
the
actual
underlying
object,
if
you
I
think
it's
always
important
to
go
back
to
first
principles
and
it's
to
ensure
that
we
have
data
which
is
of
a
gold
plate
standard
in
terms
of
how
we
collect
and
methodology
and
so
forth,
and
consistency
is
important
as
well.
So
in
that
regard
it's
surely
we
go
back
to
questions
that
we
asked
actually
considering
the
census
bill.
I
mean
it's
not
about.
You
know
how
a
person
feels
about
particular
question.
F
There
may
be
on
lots
of
other
questions
in
the
census
that
lots
of
individuals
find,
for
whatever
reason,
slightly
intrusive
or
whatever.
It
is
a
question
of
collecting
data
for
the
benefit
of
the
state
in
terms
of
all
aspects
of
public
life
and
public
services,
provision
and
so
forth.
So
I
would
have
thought.
Then.
The
key
objective
here
is
to
ensure
that
for
data
users,
this
is
the
base
that
we
can
do,
and
that
should
be
the
key
consideration.
C
I'm,
sorry,
if
that
wasn't
clear,
that
is
absolutely
what
I'm
trying
to
see
in
my
answer.
What
I,
but
and
what
I'm
trying
to
say
is
that
I
think
there
is
no
one
set
of
uses
which
is
made
of
this
data
and
for
some
people-
and
it
goes
back
to
the
point
I
made
earlier
for
some
people.
The
data
use
may
well
be
around
something
which
is
around
in
biological
data,
widows
for
others,
and
what
for
legal
and
sex
for
others.
C
It
is
much
more
likely
to
be
a
broader
how
other
people
perceive
them
and
em
how
discrimination
occurs
so,
and
there
is
not
from
the
all
we've
done.
There
is
not
one
single
use
case
in
terms
of
what
people
need
the
data
for.
So
if
you
were
to
ask
a
question
around
say
it's
registered
at
birth,
it
may
meet
some
data
users
needs
it
would
not
meet
some
other
data
users
needs,
and
that
is
part
of
the
issue
that
we
have
here.
Okay,.
F
C
Have
been,
we
have
spent
a
lot
of
time
em,
both
particularly
over
the
last
nine
months,
consulting
with
people
being
extremely
clear.
We
send
out
we've
sent
her
updates
to
M
thousands
of
people
who
subscribe
to
our
newsletters
discussing
what
we're
doing
so
I
think
the
answer
M
many
of
these
statisticians
will
be
linked
into
groups
as
well
that
we
have
been
presenting
out
that
we've
been
talking
at
so
M.
Yes,
we
will
absolutely
follow
up
in
this,
but
this
is
not
an
engagement
that
has
been
in
brought.
F
A
J
You
convener
and
just
to
pick
up
on
the
suggestion
has
made
a
moment
ago.
If
question
number
three
was
to
ask
what
is:
was
your
saying:
what
was
your
sex
registered
at
birth
and
how?
How
would
that
interact
with
the
protection
individuals
with
the
gender
recognition
certificate?
Half
can't,
can
you
ask
someone
with
a
gender
recognition
certificate?
What
was
your
sex
registered
at
birth,
I'm.
H
H
So
it
would
be,
within
the
exceptions,
to
I
think
it
section
22
of
the
gender
recognition
act.
That
would
be
the
legal
position.
More
generally,
there's
are
a
sort
of
a
policy
which
is
bound
up
in
the
existence
of
there's
a
reason
why
those
confidentiality
provisions
are
there
in
the
first
place
and
that's
that's
part
of
the
overall
balancing
exercise
of
a
private
private
rights
of
of
privacy
in
the
particular
circumstances
balanced
against
the
public
need
for
the
boots,
which
are
generated
by
the
census.
Thank.
J
C
Before
2011,
we
never
any
guidance
in
previous
censuses
and
we
have
always
asked
a
question
which
has
had
the
response
options:
male
or
female.
It's
been
Asuna
slightly
different
way
and
across
the
the
US,
but
it's
essentially
the
same
question,
which
is
a
list
of
male
or
female,
with
no
guidance.
What's.
C
Think
I
think
we
don't
actually
have
an
understanding
because
we've
never
tested
at
that
point
in
time
we
never
had
any
guidance
and
and
I
think
we
have
said
in
the
past.
We
it's
almost
a
factor.
It's
been
self-identification.
I
don't
mean
necessarily
in
that
context
that
it's.
What
M
has
how
people
would
interpret
that
today,
but
it's
a
self
completion
exercise.
So
we
have.
You
know
we
get
back.
What
people
have
said
in
the
past
M
is
how
they
would
interpret
that
question.
C
C
Think
what
we
will
get
back
from
this
testing
as
an
understanding
of
actually
how
do
people
respond
without
guidance
and
whether
that
changes
and
whether
we
can
respond
to
the
question
I
think
it
was
raised
in
D
by
Professor
McVie,
if
I
recall
correctly
during
evidence
sessions
about.
If
we
don't
have
guidance,
then
we
don't
understand
what
it
is,
we're
actually
accurately
measuring
and
I
suppose
that
would
be
the
concern.
Given
everything
that's
been
said,
it
is
by
not
having
guidance.
Do
we
have
any
understanding
what
we're
measuring,
but
equally
I,
think
what
we
were.
J
C
These
there
they're
all
doing
different
things
frankly,
so
some
of
the
census
offices
are
looking
at
can
have
non-binary
responses.
Some
of
them
are
looking
at
asking
a
question
around
sex
birth
and
then
how
you
currently
identify,
but,
for
example,
across
the
rest
of
the
UK
I,
mean
England
the
u.s.
published
guidance
yesterday,
which
says
that
they
will
continue
with
what
they
have
done
in
the
past
and
2024
2021.
C
J
C
We
we
work
very
closely
with
our
colleagues
awareness
and
we've
drawn
strength
from
some
of
their
testing
and
vice-versa
and
I
think.
Actually,
it's
also
been
pointed
out
by
a
lot
of
our
users
and
indeed
by
the
office
for
a
statistics
regulation
that
harmonization
across
the
UK
is
also
vital
on
such
a
key
demographic
variable.
C
It's
not
specifically
for
a
new
guidance
to
know,
but
the
first
part
of
the
testing
that
we
are
doing
is
actually
asking
people
to
answer
the
question
without
any
guidance,
so
we
will
see
how
they
answer
without
any
guidance
and
then
some
of
the
follow-up
questions
within
the
testing
asks
and
whether
the
guidance
changed.
The
answer
to
the
question
and
ass
around
acceptability.
A
C
Absolutely
are
an
in
fact.
Colleagues
of
mine
were
across
at
the
international
census
forum,
which
was
held
in
Ireland
last
week
with
them
colleagues
from
those
countries,
and
it
was
one
of
the
big
things
that
was
discussed,
M
&
M.
If
you
would
like,
we
could
write
to
the
committee
and
provide
em
our
best
understanding
of
what
they're
going
to
be
doing.
At
this
point
time,
Jill
was
MDS,
I,
don't
know
if
you'd
like
to
say
any
more
about
what
what
was
discussed
last
week.
D
There
was
a
lot
of
discussion
around
this
because
I
think
it's
fair
enough
to
say
that
internationally,
there's
there's
no
clear
one
answer
or
one
question
that
works
for
every
country
and
we
are
all
working
within
our
own
political
and
social
contexts
and
those
actually
help
form
the
questions
that
can
and
can't
be
included.
So
yeah.
We
will
be
actually
sharing
our
testing
results
with
the
international
census
forum
as
well.
K
There
has
been
a
suggestion
that,
in
terms
of
some
of
our
countries,
the
introduction
of
our
legal
sake,
sort
of
biological
sex
question
and
Scotland
would
actually
go
against
it
and
then
turn
national
their
practice
and
therefore
most
often
be
able
to
do.
That,
then,
though,
would
be
somewhat
different,
was
compared
to
elsewhere.
I
think.
D
In
this
one,
there
isn't,
as
I
sort
of
mentioned
in
the
previous
response
in
the
international
census
community,
there's
not
sort
of
one
question
that
suits
all
of
the
countries.
We
each
have
slightly
different
needs,
and
we
are
we
work
to
our
data
users
in
Scotland,
with
the
very
clear
awareness
that
we
have
a
UK
responsibility
and
we
need
to
be
aligned.
Other
countries
also
have
to
meet
their
data.
You
need
data,
use
those
needs,
and
certainly
on
this
I
know.
D
Rns
and
ourselves
have
spent
a
lot
of
time
talking
to
data
users
and,
and
so
the
trends
status
or
history.
Question,
for
example,
has
been
developed
for
the
Scottish
context.
The
same
applies
to
meeting
our
data
user
needs
and
Scotland
as
a
primary
purpose.
Other
countries
need
to
do
the
same
for
their
own
context.
So
while
we
work
very
closely
together
and
word
learn
from
each
other,
it's
not
as
if
we've
got
to
a
position
where
here
it's
the
one
question
that
everybody
should
ask.
I
I
Question
and
I'm
struggling
I
understand
why
you
would
need
guidance
to
ask
on
em
box.
It
just
said:
what
will
you
what
we
should
sex
register
that
both
because
they
say
the
male
or
female?
So
why
would
you
need
gayden,
specifically
or
denied
question
you
take
either
one
of
those
two
boxes,
because
you
will
a
that
I've
been
born
male
or
female
I.
C
Would
agree
if
you
were
to
ask
that
question?
It's
probably
easier,
I
suppose
that's
the
issue
which
were
testing
at
Loehmann's.
That's
not
the
question
which
we
ask
at
the
moment.
The
question
we
ask
is:
what
is
your
sex
and
don't
define
in
the
question
what
we
mean
by
sex,
and
that
is
obviously
why
last
time
around
guidance
was
introduced
and
we're
testing
guidance
this
time
around.
So
suppose,
it's
around
that
interpretation
of
what
is
your
sex.
I
Vacation
or
on
that
question,
to
make
it
clear
of
such
as
a
question
as
to
what
you
were
registered
above,
would
that
not
be
more
helpful
rather
than
track
through
some
kind
of
elaborate
guidance?
Where
were
all
you
know,
seeing
how
many
camels
we
can
fit
through
the
eye
of
a
needle
or
dancing
ahead
of
a
pen
or
whatever
the
we're
seeing
as
I
mean,
it
seems
to
me,
were
making
something
which
is
relatively
straightforward,
incredibly
complex
as.
C
I
said
in
previous
answer:
I
think
that
if
we
were
to
ask
that
question
it
would
meet
some
users
needs,
but
it
certainly
wouldn't
meet
all
DT
user
needs
and
there
would
be
some
day
to
users
who
would
feel
that
that
definitely
didn't
meet
their
needs.
So
I
think
that
is
something
that
that
can
be
considered.
But
it's
a
different
question
from
the
one
that
we
have
asked
over
the
last
two
M
the
last
unit
in
20
years
and
therefore
would
have
M
I
suspect.
I
Or
from
M
from
what
you've
said,
it
looks
like
no
question
is
going
to
meet
everybody's
data
needs.
You
seem
to
be
saying,
you
know,
meet
some
people's,
but
not
others
so
clearly
apply
to
any
question
and,
frankly,
to
suggest
that
you
know
it
wasn't.
In
the
last
hundred
years,
I
mean
I,
don't
think
in
1801.
People
really
thought
much
about
things
like
transgender
as
I'm,
not
even
in
1901
in
1951
I
have
to
see
growing
up.
C
I'm
not
suggesting
that
we
shouldn't
ask
the
question,
because
it
hasn't
been
asked
in
the
past.
What
I'm
saying
is
that
if
we
were
to
ask
that
question,
it
is
a
different
question
and
we
would
need
to
understand
what
the
effect
of
asking
that
question
is,
because
it
is
not
necessarily
the
case
for
asking
that
question
would
give
comparable
data
to
M
the
detail,
which
would,
for
example,
we
got
in
2011
or
from
the
data
that
you
get
from
asking
a
question.
What
is
your
sex
that
that's?
What
I'm
suggesting.
C
F
And
it's
not
a
new
thing
I'm,
just
because
my
understanding
is
that
the
guidance
on
the
sex
question
is
a
new
thing.
It
was
introduced
in
2011
for
the
first
time.
So
actually,
if
you
look
at
the
period
from
1801
to
date,
it's
a
statistical
blip.
You
know
it's
the
it's
the
oddity,
if
you
like,
not
the
norm.
Okay,
so
all
this
other
guidance
was
this
published
in
2011
online,
even
though
it
wasn't
an
online
yes,.
C
Yes,
it
was
yes
and
again,
you
know
we're
trying
to
to
provide
as
much
clarity
for
people.
There
is
obviously
there's
different
levels
of
guidance
which
were
there
and
I
hope
when
we
can
show
you
the
online
em
system,
you
see
that
there's
there's
obviously,
in
some
cases,
guidance
almost
in
the
question,
for
example
the
trans
question
which
which
you
were
talking
about
earlier
but
and
then
the
people
can
go
and
get
different
levels
of
guidance.
F
C
Absolutely
not,
and
but
we
do
equally,
there
is
an
agreement
across
the
UK
countries
in
terms
of
how
we
conduct
our
sensors
to
see,
we
will
strive
for
as
much
harmonization
as
possible,
but
recognizing
that
ultimately,
censuses
need
to
deliver
what
the
DT
users
within
the
country
actually
need,
but
and
particularly
with
something
like
sex
harmonization,
obviously
because
it
feeds
into
so
many
decisions,
including
funding
decisions.
These
things
are
important,
so
it
is
one
element
that
is
considered.
A
Questions
on
this
area
before
we
move
on
to
to
the
other
member,
so
I
think
it's
best
to
do
it
now,
rather
than
at
the
end
and
come
back
to
it
and
just
on
this
issue.
If
we
continue
to
design
a
bill
suggested
and
as
other
people
have
suggested,
eleven
guidance,
what
was
something
of
a
blip
in
not
very
many
people
knew
about
even
within
the
trans
community.
A
If
we
went
back
to
just
asking
what
is
your
sex
without
any
guidance
and
as
has
been
done
since
its
you
know,
one
and
the
argument,
the
argument,
one
of
the
arguments
that
concerns
people
is
the
issue
of
confidentiality
of
how
people
answer
the
question.
We
don't
know
how
people
are
going
to
answer
the
question
and
I
just
wondered
if
you
could
offer
reassurance
on
the
confidentiality
of
the
census.
A
A
C
A
Maybe
that
would
that
would
reassure
people
on
that
particular
point,
no
matter
what
conclusions
we
come
to
here.
The
answers
are
secure
and
I
just
wanted
to
go
back
to
you
know
the
point
that
you
need
initially
about
him
and
I
said
we
weren't
going
to
discuss
this
in
the
committee,
but
Sam.
You
know
the
the
issue
of
sex
discrimination
and
biological
sex
versus
perceived
sex
no
and
the
the
Equality
Act
has
two
protected
characters.
A
Is
everybody
named
protected
characteristics,
but
sex
is
a
protected
characteristic
and
gender
reassignment
is
protected
characteristics
or,
and
the
Equality
Act?
There
is
an
understanding
that
these
two
things
are
different
and
you
know
in
the
the
guidance
notes
for
the
Equality
Act.
It
makes
it
very
clear
that
gender
does
gender
reassignment
is
a
different
thing
from
sex
I.
Take
it
you,
you
know,
like
give
very
conversant
with
their
quality.
Oh
yeah,
yes,.
A
A
One
of
self
IDs
seem
to
be
jumping
ahead
of
that
debate
and
because
we
haven't
passed
legislation
either
in
Scotland
or
in
the
UK
about
this,
and
indeed
the
Scottish
government,
our
Rican
salting
on
it
because
it
said
to
be
so
I
just
wondered
why
you're
jumping
ahead
of
that
in
the
census
to
suggest
that
that
the
sex
question
is
a
matter
to
self
ID.
Not
legal
sex
I
mean
I.
A
Think
most
of
the
people
who
object
to
what
you're
doing
are
quite
happy
to
compromise
and
say
we're
happy
time
for
people
to
answer
in
the
basis
of
the
legal
sex.
If
they've
got
gender
recognizer
certificate
because
those
number
of
people
are
so
small
that
it
wouldn't
make
any
statistical
difference,
but
you're
jumping
ahead
of
that
and
seeing
you
can
say
off
ID
or
sex,
and
that
is
that
that
seems
to
me
to
be
problematic.
So.
C
H
Think
the
starting
point
would
be
that
the
Equality
Act
does
its
job
on
the
census.
Act
does
its
job.
No
there's
a
connection
there
in
that.
The
data
that
was
gathered
in
the
in
the
census
will
feed
in
and
be
used
by
a
number
of
different
data
users
and
a
Amy
and
colleagues
will
be
able
to
see
a
bit
more
about
that,
if
necessary,
so
that
there
is
a
link
there.
But
legislation
has
to
be
seen
in
the
context
of
the
job
it's
doing.
The
Equality
Act
gives
rights
and
duties
it
governs.
H
H
The
the
interplay
of
the
two
protected
characteristics
that
you
have
have
mentioned,
that
those
of
sex,
taking
the
definition
that
it's
given
in
the
Equality
Act
and
the
a
protected
characteristic
of
a
gender,
a
gender
reassignment.
That's
that's
complicated,
and
that
has
to
be
looked
at
in
the
context
of
a
particular
case.
The
census
is
not
going
down
and
dealing
with
things
that
that
micro-level,
it's
not
dealing
with
things
where
it
is
arbitrating
between
the
rights
and
obligations
of
a
particular
parties
and
particular
circumstances.
It's
generating
data
for
a
wide
range
of
needs.
H
So
in
some
ways
it
would.
It
would
be
wrong
or
arguably
it
would
be
wrong
to
completely
hitch
the
census
to
the
the
wagon
of
the
Equality
Act,
because
the
definition
in
the
Equality
Act
does
its
job
there
with
all
of
the
things
which
are
there
around
devoted.
So
it
deals
with
direct
and
indirect
discrimination.
It
deals
with
discrimination
based
on
whether
or
not
somebody
actually
has
a
protected
characteristic
or
whether
they
are
perceived
as
having
that
protected
characteristic.
All
of
those
things
are
wrapped
up
there.
The
census
has
to
do
something
entirely.
H
Different
that
has
to
collect
data,
has
to
address
a
wide
range
of
user
needs,
and
so
that
is
why
I
think
a
one-level
that
might
seem
superficially
attractive
to
just
copy
and
paste
the
effect
of
the
or
the
language
of
the
Equality
Act
into
the
census.
But
then
it
wouldn't
be
doing
the
job
that
we're
asking
the
census
to.
A
Do
I'm
not
suggesting
for
a
minute
you
do
that,
but
what
I'm
suggesting
is
that
the
Mme
Wilson's
comments
beginning
did
did
attempt
to
define
sex
as
something
that
was
not
biological,
that
it
was
a
matter
of
self-identification,
so
you're
saying
we're
not
going
to
cut
and
paste
the
Equality
Act
into
the
census.
But
on
the
other
hand,
you
are
actually
imposing
a
particular
view
on
to
the
census
M,
which
is
that
sex
is
something
that
people
self
I
can
self-identify
and
there's
that's
not
any
queer
in
law
that
doesn't
exist
in
law.
A
A
The
users
who
have
got
problems
with
this
have
pointed
out
that,
with
subsections
of
the
population,
not
the
general
population,
but
certain
subsections,
the
population
of
society
changes
if
you
change
the
way,
you're
defining
sex.
That
will
affect
the
data
and
that's
why
we
have
these
letters
from
data
users
and
social
scientists
who
see,
in
particular
in
the
area
of
defining
err,
sex-based
discrimination
and
the
reason
why
sex
is
a
protected
characteristic
and
the
Equality
Act
is
it's
because
of
is
a
recognition
of
sex-based
discrimination.
H
B
You
convener
just
to
pursue
this
point
of
the
conveners
on
the
equalities
and
I,
accept
what
you
say
that
the
census,
Act
and
equalities
Act
have
different
purposes,
but
the
Equality
Act
is
the
seminal,
definitive
piece
of
uk-wide
equalities
legislation
and
it
combines
everything
together
for
the
first
time.
It
may
be
that
the
definitions
within
the
Equality
Act
required
to
be
revisited.
But
surely
there
is
a
strong
argument
as
a
convener
suggests
for
that
to
be
consistency
between
that
legislation
and
the
legislation
that
we're
considering
at
the
very
least.
H
Oh
there
maybe
but
I
think
that's
a
way,
a
much
more
wide-ranging.
A
policy
question
that
I
can
speak
to
I
mean
what
the
member
might
be
suggesting
is
that
when
the
Equality
Act
was
passed
in
2000
attained
consequential
amendment,
should
it
be
made
to
the
census
act,
1920
I'm,
not
sure
that
that's
that
was
in
the
mind
of
Parliament
when
it
passed
the
Equality
Act
2010.
F
Should
we
not
know,
though,
in
our
endeavors
whatever
they
may
be,
be
the
census
or
be
the
anything
not
be
required
to
operate
in
the
context
of
the
Equality
Act?
So
the
1920
argument
and
it
maintained
that
it's
a
bit
of
a
red
herring
we
actually
have
to
as
legislators,
operate
within
the
strictures
of
the
2010
Equality
Act
in
all
our
endeavors,
irrespective
of
the
area
of
activity,
I.
H
H
There's
no
suggestion
that,
what's
being
done,
relates
to
the
reserved
matter
of
the
Equality
Act
or
whether
it
be
out
with
the
powers
of
of
this
Parliament
to
I'm,
to
make
the
sort
of
provision
which
has
been
proposed
in
the
in
the
census,
order
and
I.
Think
as
as
Amy's
indicated,
there
are
a
wide
range
of
data
users
who
look
to
the
census
to
get
that
data.
A
I
mean
run
through
all
your
documentation.
You,
you
know.
Even
when
you're
defining
sakes
you
see,
sex
is
a
protected
characteristic
in
the
Equality
Act.
You
conduct
an
equality
impact
assessment,
because
the
Equality
Act
demands
that
all
of
you,
so
the
Equality
Act,
is
actually
at
the
core
of
what
you
do.
I'm.
H
Sorry,
if
he
may
be
been
unclear
in
suggesting
that
and
that
it's
not
important
and
it
central
to
to
some
aspects
of
why
the
sakes
data
is
is
needed.
But
that's
that's
different
from
saying
that
there
can
only
be
one
right
answer
to
what
must
be
asked
in
the
in
the
sex
question.
It
must
be
the
answer
of
what
is
what
is
your
sex
us
understood
in
the
Equality
Act
2010.
A
Well,
as
I
say,
you
know,
you
have
said
that
you
will
engage
with
the
people
who
have
written
to
you.
The
statisticians
mean
that
what
they
are,
they
are.
The
point
that
they
make
is
that
you
know,
like
your
census,
affects
lots
of
other
statistical
exercises.
It's
the
only
source,
they
say
providing
full
coverage
of
the
population
on
such
our
weight
aspects
of
social
life
and
is
therefore
uniquely
well
placed
to
provide
information
on
small
population
groups,
and
we
society
is
changing
10
years
time.
A
You
know,
like
think
people
could
be
identifying
themselves
in
all
sorts
of
ways
and
therefore,
they're
really
concerned
that
you
know
like
that.
This
will
damage
data
so
and
you're
under
an
obligation
understand
from
the
statistics
authority
to
engage
with
statisticians
and
they
could
intervene.
If
you
don't
so
I
take
it,
you
will
be
yeah,
you
will
be
engaging
with
these
people
and
there's
my
last
point
again
on
engagement.
Is
that
you're
supposed
to
have
you
were
having
stakeholder
engagement
with
regards
to
the
Equality
impact
assessment,
I
believe
and
you
it's
next
week.
A
A
My
I've
been
approached
by
members
of
stick
stakeholder
groups,
not
the
professional
funded
stakeholder
groups,
but
the
independent
ones
that
you've
been
engaging
with
and
they
were
given
one
weeks
notice
of
the
date
and
they
were
originally
told
that
they
could
meet
in
Glasgow
Edinburgh,
and
now
it's
just
a
Edinburgh.
So
many
of
them
you
know,
feel
you're
not
going
to
be
able
to
make
it,
though,
because
they've
had
such
short
notice
of
the
date
of
the
stakeholder
engagement
meeting.
C
It's
something
we'd
be
very
keen
to
to
look
at,
because
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
we
are
very
keen
to
do
is
to
make
sure
we
can
get
the
feedback
on
the
Equality
impact
assessments
and
indeed
the
other
assessments
to
make
sure
that
they
do
represent
the
broad
range
of
M
evidence
that's
out
there
and
that
we
aren't
M
missing
or
that
there's
there's
not
things
in
there,
which
which
do
not
actually
reflect
people's
experience.
Thank.
A
G
Know
you've
talked
about
that
this
sense
is
being
the
family
online
and
you've
also
talked
about
the
rehearsal
that
you're
planning
to
do
I
think
you
said
it's
in
a
month's
time,
then
that's
going
to
take
place.
Okay
can
I
ask
about
some
information
with
reference
to
that
rehearsal
as
to
how
you
how
you're
planning
to
progress
that
and
what
safeguards
may
be
put
in
place
because
you're
using
different
types
of
technology,
and
are
you
going
to
be
trying
to
use
all
of
that
ginger
rehearsal?
G
C
The
rehearsal
is
due
to
take
place
with
reference
to
the
13th
of
October
and
it's
going
to
take
place
in
three
local
authorities
across
Scotland
with
72,000
households,
and
we've
been
going
through
a
very
long
process
of
testing
at
the
moment,
making
sure
that
we
can
test
and
both
for
security
issues
that
we're
testing
for
things
like
denial
of
service
attack.
We
can
test
if
systems
go
down
and
what
we're
going
to
do
around
that.
So
absolutely
I
think
what
I
would
say
is
that
security
for
us
is
very.
Very
important.
C
People
are
trusting
us
with
their
data.
We
have
to
keep
that
that
safe
we've
also
had
an
independent
assessment
done
across
all
three
census
offices.
We
publish
the
results
of
that
and
which
is
M,
showing
us
areas
where
were
generally
good,
but
other
areas
where
it's
highlighted
that
we
need
to
do
more,
and
so
we
are.
G
So
how
is
that
going
to
then
be
managed
to
make
sure
that
the
information
comes
back
and
that
everyone
feels
that
it's
gone
securely,
because
that's
as
I
say,
that's
the
biggest
concern
is
that
the
majority
of
this
is
going
to
be
online
and
there
could
well
be
issues
because
it's
difficult
to
make
sure
that
every
single
aspect
is
it's
covered
and
I
appreciate.
You've,
you've
done
you've
done
some
of
that,
but
at
the
same
time
it's
the
guidelines
that
are
going
to
be
put
out
and
how
you're
going
to
manage
that
process.
Yes,.
C
G
C
Think
I
mean
I.
We
are
obviously,
if
there's
a
major
issue
with
something
we
would
want
to
make
sure
that
that
is
rectified
again.
We
would
want-
and
we
would
be
identifying
that
in
any
report,
and
that
was
there
and
then
being
very
clear
about
what
the
steps
are
and
that
we
that
we
would
be
putting
in
place
to
make
sure
that
that
is
then
identified
and
indeed
tested
to
provide
the
assurance
before
2021.
L
You
coming
in
good
morning,
why
not
I'm
gonna,
move
on
to
the
area
of
ethnicity
and
I,
understand
the
questions
in
here
when
I
refer
to
questions
22
and
23
on
22
is
on
national
identity.
20
and
23
is
on
ethnicity
and
I
would
assume
that
you
really
want
this
to
be
as
accurate
as
possible
to
get
all
the
information
that
you
need
from
it
and
therefore,
if
something
is
to
be
accurate,
it
really
needs
a
level
of
consistency.
L
C
The
current
ethnicity
classification,
which
we
have
I
think
this
is
this-
is
something
that
has
been
ongoing
for
some
time
around
and
the
issue
the
fact
that
there's
some
color
terminology
in
there
and
there's
there's
also
geographic
information.
I'll
come
back
and
address
the
point
in
religion.
In
a
minute
we
have
worked
very.
C
This
time
round
and
I'll
actually
I'll
ask
Jill
to
give
some
response
to
that,
because
it
was
something
that
we
last
time
around.
We
actually
had
a
very
low
response
and
that
so
it
was-
and
we
wanted
to
know
whether
or
not
by
removing
that
category
and
what
that
would
actually
do
both
in
terms
of
how
people
were
able
to
respond
and
also
consistency
over
I
mean
but
I
mean
I.
I
would
accept
the
fact
that
actually
this
this
does
have
different
concepts
in
it.
C
For
2011,
we
did
try
to
look
at
ethnicity
framework,
which
was
entirely
Geographic,
based
that
didn't
work
very
well
either.
So
this
is
I
suppose
an
ongoing
process
with
stakeholders
around
trying
to
actually
both
get
information
which
allows
people
to
him
to
address
the
policies
that
they
want
to
be
able
to
address,
allows
people
to
be
able
to
actually
respond,
but
also
can
maintain
some
consistency
over
time,
because
one
of
the
things
as
well
that
we've
got
back
from
a
lot
of
stakeholders
is
given
that
this
is
such
a
key
variable.
D
There
is,
we
talked
to
a
small
number
of
groups
because
there's
a
certainly
from
2011
as
a
small
community
that
identified
that
way.
We
had
some
evidence
that
we
should
keep
the
terminology
consistent
with
2011.
Other
stakeholders
had
suggested
that
the
terminology
wouldn't
need
changed.
The
stakeholders
that
would
breed
data
users
suggested
that
the
terminology
that
was
presented
in
2011
for
this
question
was
what
they
would
need
to
going
forward
for
the
reasons
of
consistency,
I
think
the
the
sort
of
the
bigger
point
in
terms
of
big
interest.
D
L
Just
seems
to
me
that
what
you're
saying
is
just
there
is
that
you
want
to
be
consistently
inconsistent
because
the
questions
are
based
on
geography
or
color
can
I
just
give
you
an
example
of
what
I
mean
here.
If
you
go
back
to
question
22,
that's
a
really
easy
question:
question
22
is
about
national
identity
says.
What
do
you
feel?
L
Is
your
national
identity,
tick
all
that
applied
and
hybrid
spent
as
early
a
person
that
I'm
new
to
this
at
lay
a
person
coming
in
here
and
I'd,
take
well
I'd,
take
Scottish
and
I'll
take
British,
because
I
feel
both
then
I
go
to
the
next
question.
Question
23:
what
is
your
ethnic
group
choose?
One
section
from
A
to
F
then
take
one
box
which
best
describes
your
ethnic
group
or
background
and
then
in
Subsection
I've
got
white
Scottish
or
other
British.
L
D
In
terms
of
the
format
of
the
question
on
this,
it's
we
look.
No
Scottish
government
is
one
of
our
key
stakeholders.
As
a
user
of
the
data,
Scottish
has
separated
out
to
meet
certain
needs.
We
haven't
been
presented
with
a
strong
need
to
separate
out,
for
example,
England,
Northern,
Ireland
or
Wales,
and
that
question
this
is
actually
one
of
the
most
widely
used
questions
and
the
census,
the
Athan,
a
group
question.
So
again,
we've
got
a
question
which
has
derived
in
a
way
to
meet
a
very
broad
range
of
user
needs.
L
D
Think,
with
even
a
great
question,
just
one
thing
to
add
is
that
we
we
have
done.
There's
been
a
lot
of
work
done
on
this
question
and
the
the
related
concepts
of
our
national
identity
and
religion
comes
into
this.
This
area
work
as
well,
because
they're
all
sort
of
slightly
different
facets
of
how
how
we
may
identify
as
individuals
and
I
don't
think
there
is
this
at
this
question
very
much
is
quite
complicated
and
it's
quite
a
sensitive
topic
for
a
lot
of
people
as
well.
D
L
Just
finished
making
and
making
that
point
I'm
confused
it's
complicated,
it's
my
view.
It's
too
complicated.
It's
asking
a
question
on
ethnicity
which
isn't
actually
ethnic
and
when
you
do
ask
the
question:
an
ethnicity,
you're,
confusing
color
and
geography
and
mixing
it
all
in
and
from
my
perspective-
and
it's
been
put
to
me
by
other
other
people.
This
is
why
I'm
raising
this
issue
is
that
it's
not
consistent
and
if
you
want
to
get
accurate
information,
you've
got
to
ask
the
right
question.
L
I
One
and
twenty
thirteen
twenty-one
and
the
religious
question
you've
got
a
you
know:
nunchucks
Scott,
Roman,
Catholic
Christian,
please
rate
and
below.
Then
you
get
Muslim,
please
rate
and
vanillish
that'll
be
clarified
T.
If
you've
only
have
Muslim
and
you're
gonna
appease
right
and
below,
should
it
not
be
a
rate
and
which
denomination
of
Islam,
because
someone
make
just
rate
Muslim
in
the
box
as
well
as
ticket
unless
it's
specific
about
denominations
Shirley.
D
Certainly
and
the
digital
platform,
these
Thetas,
the
suggest
you've
made,
as
is
how
its
presented
on
the
what
the
version
of
the
questions
that
have
been
supplied
to
committee,
are
derived
from
the
the
paper
questionnaire,
where
we
have
more
limitations
on
space
and
and
therefore
on
design.
So
I
think
next
week,
this
demonstration
of
the.
I
Other
questions
we
asked
was,
you
know:
you've
got
twenty
one.
You've
got
a
term
religion,
Jewish,
no,
but
always
under
ethnicity.
You've
also
get
other
a
you
give
class
Jewish
people's
an
ethnic
group.
It
seems
so
if
I
was
to
convert
to
Judaism
M
tomorrow,
what
which,
which
sure?
What
would
our
tech
in
question
23
with
our
tech
and
you
know,
score
a
shorter
take
him.
You
know
Jewish
hold,
it
would
attack
because
say
Julie
and
those
are
kind
of
a
contradiction.
There
is
one
best
describes
the
ethnic
good.
I
C
So
you
get
people
who
are
not
necessarily
practicing
Jews
who
but
are
ethnically
Jewish
in
me,
therefore,
and
wish
to
have
Jewish
services
end-of-life
or
M
other
such
things
that
you
don't
necessarily
collect
them
through
that
question
question
21,
so
we
worked
both
with
the
Jewish
communities
and
with
the
Sikh
communities.
Who'd
made
similar
points
to
see
actually
should
we
include
cm
Sikh
and
Jewish
m
in
the
ethnic
group
question
as
well
as
in
the
religion,
question
and
I.
C
What
we
found
was
that
for
those
people
who
wish
to
identify
ethnically
as
Jewish
having
it
in
as
a
prompt
was
the
best
way
to
actually
indicates
them
that
it
was
acceptable
that,
if
the
M
deemed
third
ethnicity
to
be
Jewish,
whether
or
not
they
ticked
that
within
M
quest,
twenty-one
that
that
was
acceptable
to
do
so
and
with
the
Sikh
community.
It
was
slightly
different
and
in
fact,
actually,
when
we
looked
at
both
having
a
Sikh,
tick
box
or
indeed
having
a
Sikh
M
prompt.
I
No
Barbra
Streisand's
Jewish
in
the
least
Sammy
Davis
jr.
was
Jewish
but
I.
Don't
think
any
of
them
would
be
classed
of
the
same
as
to
seem
ethnicity.
Does
this
mean
we're
going
to
find
it
in
future
of
centers
corny
of
Muslims
going
to
be
an
ethnic
group
or
you
know
we're
going
to
move
if
we're
going
to
end
up
kind
of
merging
question
2013
21,
eventually
to
an
extent
I
mean?
I
C
Particularly
for
those
and
those
are
the
two
groups
both
who
have
M
approached
us
around
this,
and
but
also
my
understanding
is
M.
There
have
been
some
legal
cases
as
well,
where
it
has
been
determined
that
actually,
these
are,
and
both
of
these
religions
actually
are
ethnicities,
as
well
as
the
fact
that
they
are
religions
M.
C
The
other
groups
have
not,
and
we've
we've
met
with
all
of
them
and
discussed
this,
but
that's
not
been
an
issue
for
for
other
groups,
but
it's
very
much
coming
from
the
the
groups
themselves
that
the
for,
for
some
people,
not
all
of
them,
they
deem
this
to
be
their
ethnicity
and
in
many
cases
as
well
as
their
religion,
but
for
some
people
they
don't
deem
it
to
be
the
religion,
but
they
do
deem
it
to
be
their
estate
background.
Okay,.
A
J
I
represent
around
three-quarters
of
Scotland's
Jewish
community
and
their
representative
groups
have
engaged
with
me
quail
or
on
this
and
just
to
be
clear.
There
are
essentially
three
broad
definitions
of
what
it
means
to
be
Jewish.
There
is
a
religious
identity,
there's
a
cultural
identity
and
there
is
a
recognized
ethnicity
and
you
can
be
ethnically
Jewish
without
being
a
practicing
religious
Jew,
for
example,
that's
different
to
other
face
I
I'm,
a
Christian
I'm,
a
member
of
the
Church
of
Scotland.
That's
clearly
not
an
ethnicity
that
is
purely
a
religious
question.
J
I
can
answer
that
in
question.
21
I
can
identify
as
white
Scottish
an
inquest
23,
so
the
the
Jewish
leadership
Council
are
very
happy
with
where
we've
come
to
in
this
census.
That
Jewish
is
included
correctly
as
a
faith,
but
in
question
23
there
is
that
prompt
for
people
who
are
ethnically
Jewish
to
identify
such
in
the
census,
because
we
know
that
one
of
the
ways
that
anti-semitism
manifests
itself
is
in
discrimination
against
people
who
appear
to
be
Jewish
on
the
basis
of
their
ethnicity.
J
Regardless
of
whether
or
not
they
practice
as
a
Jew
by
faith,
they
suffer
from
anti-semitism
simply
because
they
look
Jewish,
so
the
Jewish
community
on
the
whole,
no
possession
is
ever
going
to
be
unanimous
on
the
whole,
the
community
very
happy
with
that
and
and
I'm
grateful
to
you
for
that,
but
just
to
pick
up
what
you
said
around
the
Sikh
community,
I'm,
not
sure.
If
you're
aware
we've
received
correspondence
from
Sikhs
in
Scotland
around
us,
Sikhs
are
similar
in
that
regard,
and
Sikhism
is
as
a
religion.
J
There
is
also
a
legally
recognized
Sikh
ethnic
identity,
and
the
question
over
therefore
have
is
given
that
we
are
quite
rightly
prompting
under
F
for
Jewish
as
an
as
an
ethnic
identity.
Why
not
seek
because
I
mean
you'll,
be
aware
for
a
variety
of
historical
and
cultural
reasons,
that
for
many
Sikhs
who
would
be
directed
to
check
a
box
for
see
and
particular
under
C,
it's
going
to
largely
be
under
C
for
it
for
Asian.
J
That's
not
something
they're
going
to
feel
able
to
do,
because
they
don't
recognize
that
they
do
not
identify
with
that,
so,
including
the
the
prompt
they
are
for
Sikhs
I
think
would
certainly
something
that
appears
there's
an
appetite
for
within
the
community.
So
if
you
could
maybe
expand
a
little
bit
on
what
you
just
said
previously
about
your
engagement
with
them
up
until
known
and
how
that
corresponds.
With
the
correspondence
that
we've
received
last.
D
Year
he's
been
involved
in
certainly
so
the
Sikh
community
had
had
approached
us
during
the
sort
of
development
process
to
to
ask
us
to
consider
whether
they
could
have
a
separate
tick
box
and
the
ethnic
group
question
as
well
as
in
the
religion
question,
and
it
was
already
in
the
religion
question.
We
have
no
sort
of
plans
to
to
change
that.
D
One
of
the
consistent
questions
we
got
asked
was
why,
if
you're
going
to
have
Sikh
in
these
in
a
group
question
where
are
all
the
other
Indian
religions
but
I
think
essentially
for
us
as
we're
tested
a
variety
or
formats
of
the
question
of
where
we
might?
You
include
a
a
secret
tick
box,
because
under
asian
is
not
necessarily
how
everybody
would
identify
for
2021.
D
What
we
did
find
are
various
versions
of
the
testing
that
we
found
that
for
the
Sikh
community,
good
quality
data
is
collected
on
the
Sikh
population
within
the
religion,
question
which
is
slightly
different
for
from
when
we
tested
for
the
Jewish
community.
Actually,
the
religion
question
only
undercounted
the
size
of
the
Jewish
population,
so
census
2020,
one
can
still
continue
to
deliver
good
quality
data
on
the
on
the
Sikh
community
within
Scotland.
However,
that's
through
the
room,
the
religion
question,
rather
than
needing
to
be
identifiable
both
questions
or
more
than
one
question.
I.
J
Appreciate
that's
a
useful
answer:
there's
clearly
a
need
for
some
further
engagement
with
the
community
here.
Those
I
think
it
would
be
useful
for
for
yourselves
to
engage
with
the
community
and
to
keep
the
committee
copy
done
on
that
I
there's
so
something
to
be
resolved
here
and
just
going
back
to
the
point
that
Kenny
Gibson
made
around
Muslim,
please
right
and
below
as
an
option
for
it
for
21.
J
This
is
something
that
I
really
yourselves
the
private
meeting
we
had
with
the
committee
to
get
some
informal
feedback,
and
we
talked
about
the
fact
that
protective
for
some
older
members
of
the
Muslim
community
for
English
is
not
our
first
language.
That's
not
clear!
It's
useful
to
know
that
in
the
online
version
that
will
not
be
the
case.
I'm
still
concerned
that,
in
this
paper,
coffee
and
I
understand
absolutely
they're
all
being
wailed
paper
returns
will
be
a
small
minority
sentence.
J
Returns
this
time
around
and
but
that's
it's
still
not
clear
how
a
Muslim
should
answer
that
question.
Other
Christian
preacher
in
below,
if
someone
is
from
another
Christian
group,
is
broadly
pretty
clear
what
you're
asking
for
there.
My
concern
is
still
with
Muslim.
Please
write
in
bull,
someone
is
not
going
to
write
sunni-shia
et
cetera,
they're
going
to
write.
Muslim
can.
C
J
Think
it
would
but
I
would
definitely
consult
what
I
use
denomination,
because
that's
the
language
I'm
familiar
with
as
a
Christian
who
does
ecumenical
work
I,
wouldn't
want
to
speak
on
behalf
of
the
Muslim
community.
I
assume
that
denomination
is
an
appropriate
word
choice
there,
but
it's
something
I
would
engage
with
the
various
Muslim
communities
on
I.
Think
just
a
small
change,
a
bit
more
clarification
in
the
language
there
in
the
paper.
Coffee
will
sort
this
out
and
the
online
version
sounds
absolutely
fine.
We.
K
D
D
C
Be
very
happy
to
write
to
you
and
give
you
details
of
who
we've
engaged
with
and
all
some
of
the
testing
it
was.
Yes,
we
did
M
testing
around
visual
accessibility,
but
also
around
language
use
and
making
sure
that
things
were
clear
and
again
we
got
some
feedback
back
but
again,
I
think
this
is
some
of
what
we
will
be
looking
to
do
through.
The
rehearsal
is
also
learn
from
that
and
understand
to
make
sure
that
that
it's
it's
open
and
accessible
to
all.
K
Sure
the
cross-party
group
on
visual
impairment
and
the
deputy
convener
of
the
cross-party
group
for
dyslexia,
so
in
season
4
release
I,
certainly
look
forward
to
your
replies
in
terms
in
terms
of
the
actual
census.
For
how
long
will
the
census
actually
be
life?
No,
obviously
it's
census
dates
are
21st
of
March,
but
for
how
long
will
it
be
life,
certainly
online?
And
what's
the
length
of
time
that
people
will
have
to
fill
out
the
census
so.
C
In
2021,
it's
slightly
different
for
the
rehearsal
because,
as
a
short
appear,
but
2021,
it
will
be
M
about
nine
weeks.
So
the
census,
the
21st
of
March,
is
the
reference
date
for
the
census.
But
we
will
be
contacting
people
m
about
three
weeks
before
and
we
will
be
accepting
responses
and
indeed
encouraging
responses,
because
one
of
the
things
we
want
to
make
sure
is
that
we
get
people
to
respond
as
early
as
possible,
but
also
so
that
we
can
make
sure
that
everybody
is
not
necessarily
responding.
At
the
same
time.
C
Munication
is
encouraging
people
to
respond,
and
then
gradually
is
that
we
get
into
that
six
weeks,
as
well
as
the
the
follow-up
activity
we
do
get
into
em
towards
the
end
non
compliance
activity
for
people
who
haven't
complied
with
their
legal
obligation
and
then
and
then
after
six
weeks.
We
then
start
activity
in
the
field
for
and
what's
called,
the
census
coverage
survey,
which
is
how
we
then
go
out
and
do
a
separate
survey
and
estimate
the
size
of
the
population
that
haven't
actually
completed
the
census.
So
nine
weeks
in
2021
is.
K
C
Absolutely,
although
they
have
a
slightly
different
model,
they
have
em.
They
actually
encourage
people
to
fill
their
census
in
on
the
day
of
the,
so
we've
always
had
a
reference
date
in
terms
of
so
it
does
help
with
balance
things
we
will
take
even
in
2011.
We
encourage
people
to
do
beforehand,
but
I
think
particularly
with
going
online
in
a
major
way
this
time.
K
I'm
a
final
question
just
in
terms
of
2021,
there's
gonna
be
a
lot
of
other
things
taking
place
within
within
society
and
certainly
in
this
Parliament
will
be
being
dissolved
to
enter
a
Scottish
Parliament
election
notwithstanding
what
may
or
may
not
be
happening
regarding
the
break
set
and
the
implications
of
that.
So
what
promotional
activity
will
you
be
doing?
What
type
of
advertising
campaign
will
you
have?
K
C
We
would
like
as
many
people
as
possible,
if
they're
able
to
complete
online,
and
we
want
him
to
people
to
complete
without
having
to
have
somebody
go
around
and
follow
up
on
them.
So
it's
understanding
the
messages
again,
making
sure
that
the
messages
are
clear
about
the
value
of
the
census
and
what
the
census
is
used
for
and
that's
work.
That's
going
to
be
going
on.
C
Understandably,
there
would
be
attention
elsewhere,
and
so
again
we
will
be
working
probably
will
be
going
as
opposed
before.
The
sensor
starts
into
that
kind
of
priam
period
of
it's
coming,
raising
awareness
making
sure
as
well
that
we're
working
with
community
groups
and
others
so
that
people,
when
they
gate
and
they're
later,
asking
them
to
complete
the
census.
That's
not
the
first
time
that
they've
heard
about
it.
Okay,.
K
Just
waiting
for
aggression
just
a
garden,
the
technical
element
of
this
for
the
online
element,
no
Alexander
should
I
ask
some
questions,
or
this
other
one,
but
I
think
it
you've
undertaken
some
financial
estimates
for
what
additional
IT
infrastructure
but
you're
going
to
require.
Also
because
you
want
to
have
a
twenty
percent
last
time.
Loaned
fell,
though
in
mind
you're
going
to
want
to
have
that
to
be
vastly
increased.
So
that's
also
when
you
come
out
cost
and
and
also
the
planning
for
that
would
need
to
happen
sooner
rather
than
later.
But
imagine.
C
Absolutely,
and
indeed
the
system
which
we're
using
me
much
of
that
infrastructure
is
now
already
in
place
and
will
be
what
is
being
used
in
the
census
rehearsal
and
what
we
are,
the
centrally
the
online
collection
tool.
The
shrine
then,
this
time
so
we'll
be
cloud-based
as
cloud
hosted
as
well,
but
in
a
secure
way,
so
that
actually
we
can
respond
to
the
demands
of
if
thousands
hundreds
of
thousands
of
people
are
working
and
wanting
to
complete.
C
A
F
Very
briefly
and
picking
up
on
the
excellent
innovation
in
this
census
in
2020,
one
such
that
it
will
not
be
slowly.
The
head
of
the
household
completes
the
census,
which
is
I,
really
I,
think
a
welcome
development
and
everybody
was
very
pleased
to
see
that
and
in
your
rehearsal
in
whenever
is
to
come
in
the
next
weeks.
And
how
will
you
because
this
is
a
new
departure?
F
C
Yes,
so
last
time
when
we
did
actually
M
allow
people
to
complete
individually,
both
online
and
but
of
course,
particularly
online,
there
wasn't
such
a
big
take
up
again
we're
being
very
clear
about
the
fact
that
people
can,
if
they
wish,
to
request
their
own
individual
response
and
again
through
the
messaging
that
we're
putting
out
this
is
about
either.
You
can
do
that
with
agreement
of
the
person
who's
filling
in
the
census
form,
so
you
can
be
saying
to
them.
I
want
to
fill
in
my
own
census
form
and
that's
fine.
C
They
won't
put
you
on.
The
form
are
also
to
ensure
confidentiality
for
those
people
who
wish
to
complete,
but
don't
wish
to
have
to
tell
the
person
who
is
actually
completing
the
main
sense,
the
form
I'm
going
to
do
that.
Then
there
are
arrangements
in
place
and
will
be
very
clearly
saying
posting
all
of
that
on
the
website
in
terms
of
how
people
do
that
people.
C
One
of
the
things
we
were
keen
to
learn
from
the
rehearsal
is
exactly
what
proportion
of
the
population
take
up
this
option
and
both
because
it
matters
in
terms
of
how
we
need
to
support
them
for
2021,
but
also
we
need
to
know
that
from
the
point
of
view
of
volumes
of
processing
but
M.
Yes,
we
will
continue
to
engage
with
with
partners
who
can
help
us
on
this.
But.
C
E
Thank
you
can
be
now
about
couple
of
questions
on
other
issues
and
I
suppose
we're
fair
to
say
from
the
discussion
this
morning
that
the
census
involves
a
combination
of
questions.
Some
are
factual.
So,
when
I
ask
you
what
qualifications
you
have
if
either
got
five
or
grades
or
you
don't
and
other
ones
are
based
on
self-identification
of
interpretation.
So
back
to
this
nisit
equation,
the
guidance
on
ethnicity
said
it's
up
to
you,
how
you
answer
this
question.
So
that's
one
that
comes
down
to
it's
up
to
your
interpretation.
E
So
it
was
interesting
to
Scott's
question
which
was
introduced
in
2011
and
Scott's
language,
which
again
says
it
is,
but
the
guidance
it's
up
to
you,
how
you
answered
it
and
the
guidance
less
there's
lots
of
different
words
for
Scott's,
a
keyboard,
there's
Doric
faith,
Shetland
I
just
wondered
how,
because
the
game?
That's
a
self
identification
question.
So
it's
not
trying
to
measure
because
people
seem
to
be
asking
quite
a
few
questions
but
accuracy
in
some
ways.
It's
not
mentioned
it's
not
measuring.
E
C
C
There
was
a
lot
of
testing
done
around
that
question
because
in
previous
work,
which
had
been
done
looking
at
Scott's
language
questions
in
the
census
suggested,
but
actually
it's
quite
difficult
to
get
to
some
of
that
level
of
granularity
with
one
question
and
so
I
think
it
is
fair
to
say
that
actually
is
that
broad
identification
question
because
M
you
know,
actually
people's
understanding
we
found
prior
to
2011
is
quite
broad
in
terms
of
what's
meant
by
Scots
language,
and
therefore
it
is
quite
a
broad
question.
I'm
not
sure
deal
with
you
see
yeah.
D
I
think
just
to
add
across
the
guidance
that
supports
a
range
of
the
questions
and
this
the
Scots
language,
one
in
particular,
we
are
continuing
to
work
with
stakeholders
to
refine
the
guidance
for
2021
to
make
sure
that
actually,
it
is
as
far
as
we
can
make
it
gathering
the
data
that
means
that
meets
their
needs,
so
I
think
there's
only
but
yeah
as
Amy's
acknowledged.
Some
of
these
are
because
the
census
is
a
self
completion
exercise.
We
are
relying
on
everybody
to
answer
in
the
best
way
and
the
honest
way
that
they
came.
E
Another
question
was
around
the
health
questions
or
question
18,
the
less
mental
health
condition
other
ones.
So
when
I
looked
in
the
guidance-
and
that
includes
addiction
on
the
list
and
I
wondered
if
that
had,
if
you're,
confident
that
collects
that
information
I
know
it
does
have
the
other
conditioning,
you
can
write
n
it's
just
if
it's
I,
don't
know
it's
just
gonna
stuck
out
to
me
is
that
the
right
place
for
that
condition
to
be
or
do
people
for
a
film
intend.
The
recognized
addiction
has
been
a
mental
health
condition.
D
Haven't
specifically
tested
whether
people
would
recognize
addiction
as
a
mental
health
situation.
We.
This
is
another
of
the
question,
with
the
guidance
we're
working
with
a
range
of
organizations
to
to
try
and
refine
refine
those
lists
to
make
sure
that
we
have
got
things
in
the
right
place
so
I'm,
certainly
that's
one.
We
can
take
back
to
consider.
Okay.
Thank
you.
Okay,.