►
Description
Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee
A
Good
morning
and
welcome
everyone
to
the
18th
meeting
of
the
culture,
tourism,
europe
and
external
affairs
committee
and
our
ninth
remote
meeting,
we
also
have
apologies
today
from
ross
clear
msp.
However,
I'm
pleased
to
welcome
patrick
harvey
msp
to
the
committee
as
a
substitute
member
for
ross
today,
I'm
also
pleased
to
welcome
dean.
Lockhart
msp
to
the
committee
dean
has
replaced
gordon
lindherst
msp.
A
I
would
like
to
thank
gordon
for
his
contribution
to
the
work
of
this
committee
and
tuition.
Well,
as
cd
joins
the
economy,
energy
and
fair
work
committee.
Our
first
agenda
item
is
a
declaration
of
interest.
Can
I
invite
dean
locker
to
make
a
declaration
of
any
registrable
interest
that
are
relevant
to
the
work
of
this
committee
team.
B
A
A
A
He
is
the
coordinator
for
scotland,
the
music
venue,
trust
alec,
mcgowan,
executive
director
of
the
citizens,
theatre
and
lucy
cassoch,
chief
executive
officer
of
museums
and
gallery
scotland,
and
sandy
sweetman
director
of
southwest
audio
limited
to
the
meeting.
I
would
remind
members
to
give
broadcasting
staff
a
few
seconds
to
operate
your
microphones
before
beginning
to
ask
your
questions
or
to
provide
an
answer
and
I'll
be
grateful
if
questions
and
answers
could
be
kept
as
extreme
as
possible.
A
A
I
will
begin
with
the
first
question
and
then
I
will
be
followed
by
claire
baker
and
the
children
each
member
in
in
in
turn,
and
although
I
did
say
that
we
should
direct
questions
to
individual
members
of
the
panel.
My
my
opening
question
is
directed
to
to
all
members
of
the
panel.
I
think
most
people
have
an
understanding
of
how
devastating
the
pandemic
has
been
for
the
cultural
and
heritage
sectors.
A
So
I
wanted
to
ask
you
what
your
experience
has
been
of
the
financial
assistance
you
have
received
from
the
government,
particularly
in
terms
of
starting
up
again,
and
if
you
can
maybe
talk
about
specifically
about
your
own
sector
and
what
assistance
has
worked
well
for
you
and
what
is
not
working.
And
what
would
you
like
to
change
and
if
I
could
bring
julia
in
first.
C
Okay,
hello:
everyone
can
you
hear
me
now?
I
hope?
Yes,
yes
from
festival's
edinburgh's
point
of
view.
Obviously
we
sit
at
the
intersection
of
a
huge
range
of
interdependencies
in
the
system,
so
individual
artists,
freelance
producers,
venues
commercial
companies
who
are
presenting
work
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
C
C
We've
also
had
some
of
our
festivals,
like
the
children's
festival,
be
awarded
funds
from
the
third
sector
resilience
fund,
so
where,
where
people
have
been
able
to
connect
into
that,
it's
fantastic,
there
are
these
gaps.
These
gaps
are
being
talked
about.
I
know
I've
talked
about
them
in
groups
at
national
level
and
of
course
we
we
wait
to
hear
how
the
scottish
government
is
going
to
be
making
decisions
about
allocating
the
funding
that
has
come
through
in
consequentials
from
the
uk
cultural
resilience
package.
D
Thanks
kavina,
I
think,
in
terms
of
the
three
parts
of
your
question.
What's
working,
I
think
the
single
biggest
help
has
been.
The
jrs
out
of
treasury
has
made
a
a
big
difference
to
organizations
where
we've
had
to
close
our
buildings
down
not
be
able
to
put
on
performances
so
having
some
support
for
staff
and
and
to
take
advantage
of
a
furlough
scheme
has
has
materially
contributed
to
our
ability
to
remain
a
going
concern
this
year
and
and
to
see
out
the
current
financial
year.
D
I
think,
alongside
that,
the
performing
arts
venue
relief
fund,
which
came
in
relatively
recently,
has
been
helpful
for
a
lot
of
us
in
terms
of
just
making
sure
we
can
see
it.
We
can
see
our
way
through
to
the
end
of
the
financial
year
with
many
organizations
going
through
their
order
processes
at
the
moment
and
the
going
concern
status
of
organizations
has
been
has
been
a
key
part
of
that.
D
So
that's
been
helpful
and
our
existing
funding,
commitment
being
being
committed
to
by
creative
scotland
amongst
others,
is
at
the
very
start
of
the
pandemic,
where
we
very
strictly
found
ourselves
being
told
not
to
open,
saying
that
our
funding
for
the
current
year
was
was
was
going
to
flow
through
as
anticipated,
despite
the
fact
we
couldn't
deliver.
Any
work
was
was
also
very
important
as
well
and,
although
not
technically
government,
it
was
hard
to
see
a
lot
of
the
trusts
and
foundations
that
support
a
lot
of
our
work.
D
We're
very
quickly
in
touch
with
us
to
say
that
their
funds
for
our
programs
that
we
deliver
through
their
restricted
funds
that
those
funds
were
still
committed.
In
some
cases,
they
were
happy
for
us
to
unrestrict
those
funds
and
to
use
them
in
whatever
way
we
felt
was
most
appropriate
to
survive.
There's
been
a
combination
of
things
that
very
swiftly
came
out
in
in
the
first
few
months
of
this
that
that
made
it
possible
for
us
to
see
a
way
through
to
the
end
of
the
current
year.
D
I
think
what's
not
working
and
it's
a
common
theme
is
that
with
jrs
ending
at
the
end
of
october
and
with
no
site
yet
when
social
distancing
may
no
longer
be
a
requirement
and
that
materially
affects
the
financial
viability
of
our
companies,
it's
hard
to
figure
out
beyond
this
calendar
year.
Let's
say
how
we
keep
going.
Whilst
we
can't
necessarily
return
to
the
capacity
of
operations
we
would
expect.
So
I
think
that's
important
and
I
appreciate
through
vagabrought
our
funding.
D
Our
local
authority
funding
through
glasgow
city
council
is
actually
only
confirmed
until
the
end
of
september.
At
present,
now
they
were
amidst
mid
process
of
changing
their
approach
to
funding,
and
so
we've
got
a
bit
of
material
uncertainty
there
until
glasgow
city
council
can
confirm
what
their
funding
arrangements
for
the
citizens
will
be.
D
So,
knowing
that
the
revenue
support
will
continue
in
2021
is
vital
and
at
what
level
and
I've
talked
about
the
jrs,
but
for
a
lot
of
the
freelancers
and
self-employed
people
who
make
up
a
majority
of
our
industry,
the
safe
scheme
hasn't
been
as
successful
for
some
of
them
as
a
as
as
might
have
been,
and
also
some
self-employed.
People
have
just
not
been
able
to
access
the
schemes
because
of
their
self-employed
status.
D
Yes,
all
local
authority
funding
is,
as
you
may
be,
working
we're
in
a
slightly
weird
situation
that
sits
right
now,
we're
slightly
in
exile
because
the
building's
being
redeveloped
so
we're
not
actually
in
it.
So
the
council
or
some
major
funders
of
the
redevelopment
of
the
citizens
theatre
as
well.
A
E
Hi,
john,
so
grassroots
music
venues
have
managed
to
get
some
initial
stability
from
the
ratable
value
related
grants
and
that
may
have
avoided
some
immediate
permanent
closures.
To
date,
no
grassroots
music
venues
in
scotland
of
the
80th
and
the
music
venues
alliance
network
have
shut
yet,
but
that
may
be
about
to
change
very
soon.
E
Most
venues
have
had
little
other
support
other
than
their
either
ten
thousand
or
twenty
five
thousand
pounds
that
they
got
from
the
readable
value
supports,
and
the
solo
theme
has
helped
a
lot
of
businesses
for
sure,
but
essentially
the
the
core
business
that
must
exist.
The
bricks
and
mortar
with
having
the
staff
isn't
helped
by
the
jrs
scheme.
E
So
yes,
it's
important
for
us
in
terms
of
our
infrastructure
to
be
able
to
keep
the
staff
that
we
have,
but
materially
for
the
continuing
whether
or
not
the
business
can
carry
on
having
the
staff.
There
is
something
where
they
may
have
become
unemployed
and
could
later
be
re-employed,
but
the
business
at
core
staff
other
than
the
management,
bookers,
etc.
It's
it's
slightly
further
down
the
list.
E
The
pivotal
and
creative
hospitality
and
tourism
funds
were
very
difficult
for
grassroots
music
venues
to
access,
and
I
think
that
we
got
very
low
numbers
from
those.
Unfortunately,
although
the
fiona
hislop
had
said
that
grassroots
music
venues
would
be
pivotal
enterprises,
so
it
was
a
real
shame
not
together.
I
think
that
of
those
who
applied
only
12
were
successful
and
I
tried
to
get
the
entire
network
to
apply.
E
Some
venues
have
reopened
as
bars
in
order
to
try
and
get
some
kind
of
income
generally
with
poor
results.
Trade
is
between
I've
heard
as
low
as
25
is.
What
we
previously
had
up
to.
I
think
60
was
the
best
I'd
heard
from
anyone,
and
all
of
that
trade
is
rapidly
diminishing
with
the
music
band
that
has
been
brought
in
temporarily.
At
least
we
hope
it's
temporary.
We
understand
the
scottish
government
is
looking
at
that
and
what
they
can
do
about
it.
A
Okay,
all
right
thanks
very
much,
and
and
now
I
like
to
go
to
sandy
sweetman-
I
mean
we
received
a
lot
of
evidence
from
people
who
were
in
the
supply
chain
and
supplying
technical
services
to
the
ours,
and
we
can't
obviously
invite
them
all
to
the
committee.
But
it's
really
good
to
have
to
have
sandy
here
and
to
represent
that
sector
and
to
talk
directly
about
how
it
affects
his
business.
F
Thanks
convener,
so
being
a
business
owner,
we
we
rely
a
lot
on
the
freelancers
on
a
variable
scale,
of
how
many
we
need
for
each
job
and
personal.
But
then
we
we
did
okay
with
having
a
the
ratable
value
business
going,
and
that
came
in
quickly
and
that
covered
that
the
initial
kind
of
costs
and
for
me
and
then
through
appeal,
and
we
were
successful
in
getting
some
of
the
pivotal
enterprise
results
fund,
and
so
that
was
that
was
successful.
F
A
lot
of
them
are
very
young
and
haven't
got
three
years
worth
of
accounts
that
make
a
huge
difference.
So
they're
struggling,
really
struggling
with
the,
although
they
and
the
concept
of
of
application
was,
was
good
and
it
didn't
tickle.
The
boxes
and
a
lot
of
people
were
left
out
there
and
the
worry
we've
got
ongoing
is
the
confidence
doesn't
seem
to
be
there,
and
I
know
your
other
witnesses.
F
F
F
So
I
can't
comment
on
behalf
of
other
people,
but-
and
you
know
as
soon
as
soon
as
those
disappear,
there's
nothing
really
left,
and
there
is
here
now
announcement
of
the
support
for
the
services
sector,
which
opens
up
on
monday.
However,
one
of
the
limits
for
that
is,
if
you've
had
any
previous
support,
you
can't
apply
for
it.
F
A
Yes,
okay,
thank
you
very
much
for
that,
and
that
is
very
interesting
and
very
worrying.
I'll
now
come
to
lucy
castle,
the
chief
executive
officer
of
museums
and
gallery
scotland
and
you're
obviously
from
the
heritage
sector,
which
is
different
again
lucy
and
what's
working
for
you
and
what
would
you
like
to
see
improved.
G
Depending
on
on
honesty
about
their
their
governance
structure,
the
job
retention
scheme
has
been
vital
for
a
lot
of
them
and
obviously
there's
some
concern
with
that.
Coming
to
an
end,
the
third
sector
resilience
fund
has
been
keyed
tip
to
others.
Few
access,
the
pivotal
fund,
a
few,
the
tourism
hardship
fund
and
a
number
of
received
funding
through
the
national
lottery
heritage
fund,
but
we
as
a
are
also
a
funder
ourselves.
So
we
receive
some
additional
funding
government
right
at
the
beginning,
which
was
four
hundred
thousand
pounds
of
an
urgent
response
fund.
G
We're
very
pleased
to
have
received
four
million
pounds
from
from
that
97
million
culture
fund
to
support
a
creative
recovery
and
resilience
fund,
and
that's
for
the
independent
museum
sector.
So
about
50.
Just
over
50
of
the
museum
sector
are
independent
charities
and
they're,
the
ones
that
have
been
most
immediately
placed
at
the
greatest
risk
because
they
don't
have
any
core
funding.
G
G
A
Thank
you
very
much
for
that
and
lucy
listening
to
you.
There
has
reminded
me
that
I
should
perhaps
have
drawn
attention
to
my
declaration
of
members
interests
and
the
chair
of
a
small
voluntary
museum
which
has
access
funds
from
new
zealand's
gallery.
Scotland.
So
thank
you
for
that.
Okay,
I
shall
now
pass
on
to
claire
baker.
The
deputy
convener.
H
And
thank
you
very
much
kim
wiener.
If
I
just
want
to
go
back
to
the
issue
of
funding
and
while
panelists
have
outlined
and
they've
had
available
and
the
value
that
has
been
if
they
could
give
the
msps
an
impression
of
how
long
you
expect
this
funding
to
last
also,
the
consequentials
was
announced
at
the
start
of
july
and
we
haven't
had
full
awarding
of
the
consequences.
Yet
I
understand
there's
some
73
million
still
to
be
awarded,
but
that
does
have
to
be
spent
within
the
financial.
Here.
H
A
lot
of
organizations
are
if
they
do
receive
funding
having
to
deal
with
outstanding
debts
and
bills
that
have
been
there
since
march
so
the
fund
and
how?
How
long
do
you
think
the
funding
will
last
and
how
long
bill
the
support
that
has
been
awarded
will
enable
the
organizations
to
survive,
and
I
thought
it
might
be
helpful
for
alex
and
lucy
and
julia,
maybe
to
give
out.
I
know
we'll
have
quite
a
big
panel,
so
I'm
going
to
start
with
those
panelists.
C
H
D
Beyond
the
end
of
september,
the
performing
arts
venue
relief
fund
that
we
obtained
100
000
pounds
from
and
we'll
we
estimate
we'll
have
drawn
down
approximately
300
000
pounds
from
the
jrs
scheme,
so
in
total
that's
1.8
million
pounds
across
those
funds
to
survive
this
financial
year
with
with
no
income
in
any
normal
year.
Our
revenue
funding
is
about
1.4
million
pounds.
G
But
we
don't
want
to
leave
it
too
late
into
this
year
to
be
thinking
about
the
challenges
beyond
that
and
and
so
for
all
parts
of
the
sector
best
from
getting
getting
to
march.
But
beyond
that
is
is
looking
like
a
concern
and
I
think
one
of
the
things
I
absolutely
agree
with
you
that
we
need
to
think
creatively
as
a
sector.
G
We
need
to
think
across
some
of
the
boundaries
that
we've
traditionally
worked
with
all
the
silos
we've
traditionally
worked
within,
but
you
can
only
do
that
creative
thinking,
it's
very
hard
to
do
that
when
your
backs
against
the
wall.
So
this
year's
funding
is
really
really
important
to
create
that
space.
But
we
then
need
to
use
that
space
to
to
to
think
creatively
for
the
future
yeah.
H
Thank
you
if
I
could
ask
nick
a
question
about
the
forthcoming
guidance
for
indoor
music
performances
and
we
do
have
guidance
for
outdoor
music
performances
and
the
indicative
date
of
the
14th
but
indoor,
music
performances,
and
what
would
the
sector
like
to
see
in
the
guidance
and
does
he
have?
He
did
raise
the
issue
of
the
ban
on
background
music.
I
have
to
say
I
struggle
to
see
how,
at
the
moment,
you
can't
have
background
music
on
the
14th
of
september.
H
E
Hi
claire,
I
was
looking
for
guidance
from
quite
early
stages
and
I'm
afraid
of
that
it's
been
through
enough
revisions.
I
think
the
the
final
version
is
produced
was
the
tenth
that
I'm
struggling
to
see
the
difference
between
the
earlier
and
later
versions.
So
I
have
a
little
confusion
I
had
exactly
by
whether,
but
I
do
agree
with
the
contradiction
that
you
can't
have
a
music
band
and,
at
the
same
time,
have
venues
opening
for
socially
distant
performances.
E
On
the
14th
of
september,
I
will
point
out
the
most
grassroots
music,
grassroots
music
venues.
One
physically
cannot
host
closely
distant
performances,
sneaky
pete's,
for
instance,
if
you
were
to
do
a
show,
would
have
a
capacity
of
12
instead
of
a
cap
capacity
of
100,
and
that
would
include
performers
and
staff,
so
it's
very
tricky
for
us
to
do
it,
but,
secondly,
on
a
financial
level
it
it
would
be
extremely
difficult
to
try
and
run
those
shows.
E
The
shows
would
certainly
not
be
profitable
unless
there
is
very
significant
funding
coming
from
somewhere
else
and
for
a
venue
like
sneaky
peaks
that
normally
hosts
well
between
gigs
and
clubs
somewhere
in
the
region
of
650
shows
a
year.
The
amount
of
funding
you
need
per
show
to
play
winter
venue
to
allow
some
of
that
stuff
to
happen
would
be
very
tricky.
I
hope
you
don't
mind
me
jumping
back
for
a
wee.
Second,
in
that
you
were
asking
about
how
long
funding
will
last
for
it's
very
particular
for
grassroots
music
venues.
E
E
There
is
no
further
funding
in
place,
and
this
is
a
really
crucial
and
really
tricky
area
for
us.
You
have
a
report
from
me
in
monroe,
saying
that
74
million
pounds
worth
of
creative
scotland
money
is
yet
to
be
allocated,
but
we
have
it
from
creative
industries
when
we're
asking
about
what
their
thoughts
on
a
follow-on
fund
are
that
the
97
million
pounds
is
essentially
already
allocated
and
that
half
of
it
has
gone
to
heritage
in
the
first
place.
E
So
in
an
environment
where
we
don't
know,
what's
actually
happening
with
that
money,
it's
a
little
tricky.
Our
advice
from
creative
industries
said
they
will
have
to
look
elsewhere
in
the
scottish
government
budget
to
try
and
find
any
future
work
that
would
go
on
in
grassroots
music
venues.
So
it's
it's
a
very
tricky
situation
there
about
about
any
follow-on.
The
best
that
we
have
is
that
our
thinking
this
quote
our
thinking
about
what
comes
next
is
still
happening.
E
Miss
hislop
had
talked
about
having
something
this
is
months
ago,
talked
about
having
some
kind
of
follow-on
that
would
be
innovative
and
ambitious,
and
potentially,
yes,
that
could
have
been
around
the
idea
of
having
support
for
doing
socially
distance
shows.
We
point
out
at
that
stage
exactly.
We've
said
to
you
now
that
it's
very
difficult
for
us
to
do
them,
especially
in
smaller
venues,
and
that
it's
not
financially
viable
to
do
so.
E
But
really
our
the
the
2.2
million
pounds
was
decided
because
it
was
the
exact
fixed
costs
for
the
80
grassroots
music
venues
in
scotland
to
get
through
three
months
the
fixed
costs
being
non
for
allowable
staff
and
paying
for
their
rent
insurance.
Any
higher
purchase
payments
that
sort
of
thing
as
well.
So
once
we
get
to
the
31st
october,
we're
an
absolute
cliff
edge
with
no
plan
about.
What's
going
to
happen
next
and
really
specifically,
that
is
when
jrs
ends
as
well.
E
So
it
would
be
foolhardy
for
most
businesses
to
try
and
continue
at
that
point,
and
we
urgently
need
some
kind
of
information
about
what
kind
of
future
funding
we
can
get
to.
Keep
us
going,
we
know
very
well
from
uk
government
that
they
will
not
fund
any
future
jrs,
although
I
understand
the
students
asked
for
that
again
recently,
so
there
must
be
a
plan
or
we're
going
to
see
mass
closures.
E
H
I
Thank
you
convener,
and
that
the
evidence
that
we've
had
thus
far
has
been
extremely
helpful
and
I'd
like
to
thank
the
contributors.
I'd
like
to
answer
a
question
just
regarding
the
furlough
scheme.
Clearly
from
what
we've
heard
it
seems
to
have
benefited,
but
also
not
so
so,
with
the
with
the
panel.
The
final
thing
that
the
forward
scheme
itself
should
actually
be
continued.
D
Absolutely
I
think
it
should
be
extended.
The
as
several
of
us
have
alluded
to
already
it's
social
distancing
in
any
form
is
whilst
necessary
and
understandable
is
incompatible
financially
with
the
businesses
that
we
run
and
and
for
as
long
as
that
social
distancing
is
in
place,
we
will
find
it
hard
to
retain
the
organizations
that
we
operate
and
even
beyond
the
end
of
social
distancing.
D
So
that
gives
a
sense
of
how
long
this
is
going
to
take
for
recovery.
So
the
jrs
would
be
vital
for
that
for
a
number
of
organizations.
But
it's
not
just
the
jrs
because
again,
as
some
of
us
alluded
to
that,
helps
permanent
employees
within
organizations,
but
that
doesn't
directly
help
60
70
of
the
people
that
make
up
the
theater
sectors
workforce
in
scotland,
so
other
schemes
akin
to
that
need
to
be
found
to
support
them
as
well.
Otherwise,
we'll
we'll
be
decimated
as
an
industry.
E
E
E
If
you
get
to
the
point
where
socially
distance
shows
are
allowed
to
happen,
and
then
when
you
and
then
jrs
has
ended,
the
venues
will
go
well.
We
have
to
try
and
do
shows
and
that'll
actually
be
the
crunch
point
for
a
lot
of
venues,
because
they
will
try
to
trade
and,
as
we've
seen
from
those
who've
opened
his
bars,
they
will
probably
do
so
unsuccessfully,
and
that
could
be
the
unraveling
of
the
organization.
I
C
We
are
also
talking
repeatedly
about
why
we
are
not
on
the
same
footing
as
hospitality,
with
one
meter
plus
that's
not
necessarily
to
say
that
that
would
be
viable,
but
it
would
be
more
viable
than
two
meters,
so
I
think
there's
a
discussion
that
that
needs
to
be
had
there
as
well.
But
in
the
meantime,
if
venues
are
not
able
to
operate
on
a
viable
basis,
then
at
least
we
retain
the
skills
and
we
retain
the
ability
to
actually
reinvent
and
reimagine
some
of
our
cultural
content
into
other
contexts.
G
Yes,
I
think
it's
important
also
to
recognize
that
just
being
allowed
to
open
doesn't
mean
that
venues
can
so
museums
and
galleries
could
open
on
the
15th
of
july,
and
I
think
a
handful
did
that
first
week,
six
weeks
in
we've,
113
museums
and
galleries
opens
that's
still
less
about
a
quarter
of
the
sector
that
has
been
able
to
open.
So
the
permission
to
do
so
just
doesn't
make
it
viable
necessarily
for
everyone,
and
there
are
more
who
are
intending
to
open,
but
we're
obviously
already
getting
towards
the
end
of
the
peak
season.
G
So
for
many
they
just
simply
will
not
open
this
year
and
therefore
we'll
face
those
ongoing
challenges.
Gordon
morrison
have,
as
for
hopefully,
they've
got
a
survey
out
at
the
moment
to
get,
and
some
information
back
from
those
who
are
open
is
what
the
experience
has
been
and
that
survey
is
ongoing.
So
some
insulin
results
you
shared
with
me.
G
Yesterday's
only
30
percent
of
those
who
are
open
are
considered
to
be
operating
sustainably,
so
venues
are
opening
with
with
higher
costs
because
of
the
the
need
for
addition,
potentially
additional
staff,
additional
cleaning
and
so
on,
but
with
with
much
reduced
capacity,
much
reduced
income
so
that
that's
obviously
not
a
only
30
can
trade
sustainably
that
doesn't
necessarily
encourage
everybody
else
to
do
the
same.
The
ongoing
support
will
be
needed.
F
Just
to
reflect
on
what
the
previous
speaker
has
said,
so
they
know
our
diaries
basically
cleared
and
which
affects
all
our
freelance
workers
as
well,
and
that's
till
the
earliest.
The
next
string,
and
so
the
ars
is
really
important
for
these
people.
But
I
think
it
needs
to
be
more
specifically
tailored
and
to
to
the
the
kind
of
the
last
to
reopen,
such
as
the
cultural
side
of
things.
So
so
I
think
absolutely
essential,
but
it
needs
to
be
adapted
to
to
meet
the
needs.
Very
specifically.
I
C
Sadly,
yes,
I
think
it's
very
difficult
to
see
a
future
in
which
there
isn't
a
loss
coming
out
of
the
end
of
this
process.
If
I
think
about
the
events
supply
chain,
for
example,
you
know
sandy's
been
talking
about
it,
70
of
the
suppliers
to
edinburgh's
festivals.
We
did
a
survey
of
this
a
couple
of
months
ago.
C
You've
got
the
capability
to
do
things
like
you
know,
rigging
of
massive
great
outdoor
arenas
and
sets,
and
things
like
that-
and
you
know
I
know
from
the
forums
that
I'm
sitting
in
that
a
lot
of
them
are,
you
know,
counting
the
amount
of
cash
flow
they've
got
in
weeks
rather
than
months.
So
you
know,
we've
rehearsed
some
of
the
other
issues
around
freelancers.
C
A
great
number
are
having
to
find
work
in
other
sectors
to
sustain
themselves
and
whether
they
will
be
able
to
go
back
to
the
creative
practice.
I
think
depends
on
the
long-term
response,
as
well
as
the
short-term
response.
So
I
wish
I
could
say
otherwise,
but
I
do
think
I
do
think
that
there
will
be
scarring.
E
I
haven't
got
a
great
deal
to
add.
There
quite
well
said,
except
that
to
say
that
any
venues
that
are
permanently
closed
and
that
permanent
scarring
is
as
you
describe
it,
are
very
unlikely
to
be
reopened
by
someone
else.
It
was
already
the
case.
The
grassroots
music
venues
were
closing
all
across
the
uk,
as
it
happened.
2019
was
a
turnaround
year
because,
while
live
music
is
wildly
popular,
it's
just
very
expensive,
very
difficult
to
run
a
grassroots
music
venue
given
local
licensing
conditions,
property
values,
etc.
E
G
G
And
I
think,
as
judy
says
that
there
are
a
lot
of
specialist
skills
in
the
sector,
and
I
think,
once
you
lose
those
skills,
it's
very
difficult
to
bring
them
back.
There's
also
just
as
if
you,
if
you
once
lose
a
venue,
they're
very
difficult
to
bring
back
and
for
one
organization
to
fail,
doesn't
necessarily
mean
that
somebody
else
still
has
to
care
for
that
collection.
It
isn't
necessarily
cheaper
for
somebody
else
to
look
after
it
than
in
the
organization
that
is
already
doing
so.
G
I
do
think
that
we
also
need
to
see
what
opportunities
there
are
from
the
funding
that
that
is
available
this
year
and
clearly,
there's
quite
a
bit
of
that
funding.
That's
still
to
be
announced
as,
but
we
need
to
take
this
opportunity
between
now
and
march,
to
think
about
what
more
creative
solutions
that
we
might
be
able
to
come
up
with
and
how
we
can
work
more
more
collaboratively
and
sometimes
a
crisis
forces
some
of
those
more
creative
solutions.
G
D
Just
to
echo
what
what
the
others
have
said
it
it's
hard
to
imagine.
There
won't
be
some
long-term
scarring
as
a
result
of
this.
The
macroeconomic
impacts
of
of
of
the
pandemic
will
will
create
a
trading
environment
that
could
be
challenging
in
terms
of
revenue
generation.
Fundraising
things
like
that,
and
we
in
terms
of
the
venues
producing
venues,
if
I
just
think
about
what
used
to
be
called
the
foundation,
organizations
which
were
the
five
main
producing
theatres
in
scotland,
have
been
in
receipt
of
the
same
level
of
revenue
funding
since
2006..
D
Now,
we've
sustained
our
organizations
in
that
period
on
standstill,
funding
by
increasing
revenue
generation.
So
that's
how
we've
survived,
but
it's
made
us
less
resilient.
So
if
I
look
ahead
to
where
that
revenue
generation
has
been
compromised,
the
revenue
funding
is
stagnant.
We've
seen
hearing
denuding
of
the
of
the
theater
production
in
scotland.
A
Thank
you,
I'm
going
to
bring
in
dean
walker
next,
but
before
I
do
and
can
I
just
say
to
both
members
and
witnesses,
if
every
member
asks
two
questions
of
every
single
witness,
then
we're
not
going
to
get
through
all
the
members
of
the
committee.
So
if
members
could
perhaps
indicate
in
which
witnesses
that
they
want
to
answer
the
questions,
and
then
you
know
if
there
is
obviously
repetition-
and
you
can
just
just
say
that
you
agree
with
one
another,
but
we're
not
going
to
be
able
to
get
through
all
the
questions.
B
Thank
you
very
much
convener
following
your
instructions.
My
my
question
is
directed
towards
julie
and
lucy,
because
they
there
is
the
issue
of
funding
streams
available
and
also
mentioned
the
fact
that
the
scottish
government
has
allocated,
I
think,
only
25
million
of
the
100
million
pounds
consequential
funding
available.
I
would
like
to
get
views
on
what
what
might
be
causing
delays
to
this
funding
becoming
available,
and
once
it
is
available,
what
would
be
the
most
impactful
way
that
this
funding
could
help
the
sector
perhaps
start
with
julia?
First.
C
C
I
think
that
we
would
want
to
look
at
using
any
funds
that
we
were
able
to
access
through
that
scheme
to
to
work
out
how
we
can
play
the
best
role
in
that
recovery.
You
know
connecting
artists
and
audiences
and
markets,
while
also
doing
the
best
that
we
can,
with
community
resilience
and
recovery
and
those
networks
that
we'd
started
to
develop
through
our
platforms
for
creative
excellence
program,
which
was
about
renewing
the
festival,
sense
of
kind
of
purpose
and
and
vision
after
the
70th
anniversary
in
2017..
G
Yes,
thank
them.
Well,
we
obviously
one
of
the
ones
who've
been
fortunate
enough
to
to
have
an
announcement
of
four
million
pounds
from
from
that
pot,
and
we
were
very
grateful
for
that
and
the
reason
I
think
that
was
is
it's
for
part
of
the
sector
and
we
put
in
a
a
a
a
a
request
for
funding
for
for
others
as
well
for
the
whole
of
the
sector.
But
this
was
the
part
that
was
most
urgently
at
risk,
and
that
was
why
it
was
prioritized.
So
we
were
grateful
for
that.
G
As
judy
said,
I
think
it's
an
unenviable
task.
There
are
so
many
competing
demands
for
that
funding.
The
part
that
we're
still
concerned
about,
as
as
I've
said
already,
is
in
relation
to
how
we
can
support
the
the
the
museums
in
the
areas,
particularly
by
the
culture
and
leisure
trusts,
those
and
those
with
the
the
local
authority,
museums
and
and
university
museums
and
the
complexity.
G
There
is
around
how
the
the
different
governance
models
there
and
how
we
would
direct
funding
through
to
to
the
civic
sector
and
there's
different
ways
that
could
be
done
as
to
whether
that's
done
as
the
culture
as
a
whole
or
whether
it's
done
separately
for
the
museum's
libraries
and
so
on.
I
know
there's
very
active
discussions
around
that
at
the
moment
and
we
hope
to
to
hear
some
news
about
relatively
soon,
but
there's
a
lot
of
different
ways
that
could
be
done
with
pros
and
cons
around
all
of
them.
B
Thanks
very
much,
my
second
question
is
about
support
in
non-financial
area
areas
or
or
non-financial
support,
because
I
think
nick
mentioned
the
impact
of
planning
and
licensing
and
I'd
like
to
ask
nick
alex
and
sandy
for
their
views
on
what
non-financial
support
and
changes
might
help
the
sector,
for
example,
being
much
more
flexible
about
planning
and
license
changes
and
other
operational
changes
that
might
help
the
sector.
So
perhaps
that
start
with
you
nick.
E
I
think,
actually,
I
out
with
licensing
planning
something
that
mvt
is
very
keen
for,
and
actually
creative
scotland
are
very
keen
for
is
for
further
support
for
grassroots
music
venues
through
funding
infrastructure
in
future.
Simply
because
we
haven't
had
that
relationship
prior
and
understand
you're
talking
about
what
is
that
planning
and
licensing
could
do
some
of
those
issues
around
planet
licensing
will
simply
remain.
E
I
think,
we've
gotten
to
to
some
extent
a
better
point
that
one
of
the
main
issues
is
noise
simply
and
all
that
can
be
done
for
local
licensing
authorities
to
be
mindful
of
the
importance
of
the
grassroots
music
venues
in
their
areas
would
would
be
good.
Creative
scotland
had
struggled
historically
to
be
able
to
give
money
to
grassroots
music
venues
because
they
were
spending
lottery
money.
A
lot
of
the
organizations
are
not
set
up
as
charities
or
cics,
etc.
E
If
it
comes
directly
from
scottish
government,
then
there
isn't
the
asset.
Log
issue,
though
I'd
be
very
keen
to
see
some
more
of
those
relationships
happening
just
to
jump
back
for
two
seconds.
I'm
sorry!
If
I'm
waving
away
from
your
point,
I've
been
told
by
creative
industries
that
the
97
million
pounds
has
essentially
been
allocated,
and
I
know
that
you
have
a
report
for
me
in
monroe,
saying
that
74
million
pounds
is
still
available
and
unallocated.
E
I
would
invite
msps
to
interrogate
that
and
find
out
what
is
really
going
on,
because
we
don't-
and
I
also
sit
with
the
scottish
commercial
music
industry
task
force
and
they
themselves
are
very
confused
about
this.
There's
a
new
fund
that's
been
announced
by
event,
scotland,
which
will
not
be
coming
from
97
million
pounds
as
far
as
I
know.
So,
where
is
the
money?
Where
is
it
going?
B
B
F
So
for
us,
I
can
announce
swiftly.
Both
the
finance
show.
Assistance
is
key
for
us
for
non-financial.
I
think
it's
further
up
the
supply
chain
and
it's
it's
given.
Assistance
and
support,
maybe
through
guidance,
health
and
safety
guidance
to
the
people
who
put
on
events
and
because
people
are
scared
to
put
on
events,
because
they
don't
understand
a
lot
of
the
guidelines
so,
and
that
then
reflects
on
on
our
work
situation.
F
D
Thanks,
echoing
what
sandy
just
said,
I
think
guidance
around
the
events
being
safe.
There's
been
a
lot
of
work
being
done
across
industry
on
setting
up
guidelines
for
audiences
performers
and
such
like,
and
I
think
that's
been
helpful.
I
think,
having
something
that
can
help
reassure
audiences
on
that
front
would
be
good
a
sort
of
consistent
standard
across
performances.
D
There's
also
work
to
be
done
in
the
insurance
sector.
I
know
one
of
our
industry
buddies.
Uk
theater
is
currently
doing
a
survey
amongst
us
all
about
the
challenges
around
insurance.
As
you
may
be
aware,
insurance
didn't
really
help
us
in
this
pandemic.
It
didn't
cover
us
for
anything
and
and
ensuring
against
these
kinds
of
losses.
Going
forward
are
probably
unaffordable
and
but
therefore.
D
J
One
of
the
things
that
I
struggle
with
is
the
incredible
diversity
of
the
venues
and
the
places
that
we're
talking
about.
You
know
we're
talking
about
organizations
very
large
and
small.
Some
will
have
their
own
premises.
Some
won't
for
some
of
those
premises
are
an
overhead
and
a
cost
or
others
they're
a
source
of
income
by
renting
them
out.
J
Some
will
be
using
totally
private
sector
commercial
premises
with
national
landlords
that
are
either
supportive
or
unsupportive
they'll
be
public
sector
venues
it'll
be
those
run
by
alios,
for
example,
where
it's
a
leisure
center.
That's
lost
income,
but
that's
that's
going
to
pose
a
threat
to
the
cultural
venues
that
are
run
by
the
same
organization.
So
how
can
the
scottish
government
and
local
government
provide
a
coherent
package
of
support
when
the
the
circumstances
and
needs
of
the
organizations
are
so
varied
and
diverse?
J
E
I
think
that
even
the
organizations
which
should
be
expert
on
this,
such
as
creative
scotland,
really
weren't
previously
aware
of
the
diversity
of
organizations
that
they
were
dealing
with
as
venues
and
and
and
the
rest
as
well.
So
answer
your
question
really:
it's
just
about
continuing
to
have
dialogues
and
if
it
means
that
there
are
2
000
different
schemes
to
help
all
the
different
parts
of
the
art
sector,
then
I
don't
have
a
problem
with
that.
I
think
that's
probably
a
good
thing.
E
E
And
just
just
to
add
to
that,
my
understanding
is
that
neither
creative,
scotland
nor
anyone
else
is
particularly
keen
to
be
given
the
task
of
allocating
all
of
these
97
million
funds,
because
they
simply
don't
have
the
resources
and
in
terms
of
having
to
have
conversations
with
different
parts
of
sector,
they
don't
necessarily
have
experience,
so
it
it.
You
know
it's,
it's
quite
an
open,
open
play
at
the
moment.
C
Absolutely
I
I
would.
I
would
totally
echo
what
nick's
been
saying
about
some
talking
together.
I
think
in
particular
government
scottish
government
and
local
authorities
talking
together.
I
think
lucy
has
already
alluded
to
the
real
concerns
about
where
local
authority
finances
are,
and
I
think
there
have
been
some
discussions
between
kosla
and
and
scottish
governments
about
that.
But,
as
you
say,
race-based
approach
to
you
know
what
what
is
threatened
in
terms
of
cultural
infrastructure
in
its
broadest
sense
in
local
authorities
is,
is
critical.
So
so
in
a
way.
C
So
I
probably
bulk
a
little
bit
at
the
idea
of
2000
different
schemes
for
culture
as
well,
because
that
will
slow
things
down
and
we
do
not
need
things
to
be
slowed
down,
but
so
so
I
would
be
advocating
for
that
dialogue,
but
then
a
cross-cultural,
flexible
kind
of
scheme
to
be
able
to
make
the
interventions
that
that
dialogue
uncovered
being
the
most
critical
to
having
a
kind
of
irreducible
core
of
cultural
infrastructure
in
a
very
wide
sense.
You
know
human
capital
and
social
capital
as
well
as
buildings.
C
You
know
still
standing
as
we
emerge
from
from
this
pandemic,
and
also,
I
think,
nick
makes
a
great
point
about
you
know
if
you
can
use
the
the
system
and
use
kind
of
trusted
agents
who
can
help
with
sector
development
rather
than
trying
to
do
it
all.
At
the
same
time,
I
think
that
would
be
a
help
to
to
getting
needs
met
more
quickly
as
well.
J
And
I
was
going
to
then
move
on
from
from
places
to
talk
about
people.
I
think
all
of
you
have
talked
about
the
the
fact
that
some
folk
have
followed
through
the
gaps
between
the
different
support
schemes,
particularly
those
who
work
freelance
or
part-time,
or
what
have
your
or
move
in
and
out
of
the
sector
and
combine
it
with
other
work.
I
J
Are
they
going
to
find
it
possible
to
come
back
into
that
that
kind
of
work
in
the
future
and
and
can
can
there
be
any
positive
opportunity
that
we
can
turn
this
into
a
chance
to
widen
the
net,
to
cast
the
net
wider
in
future
and
bring
more
people
with
a
different
range
of
backgrounds
or
talents
or
skills
into
the
cultural
and
creative
sectors
in
the
future?
As
we
as
we
return?
D
I'll
be
honest,
it's
hard
to
quantify
whether
we've
lost
anybody.
Already
I
mean
anecdotally.
One
almost
wants
to
say
yes,
but
I
think
because
the
lockdown
thus
far
has
been
so
universal
across
across
society.
There's
not
necessarily
been
avenues
for
people
to
go
down.
I
think
I
think,
as
we
get
on
beyond
now
as
to
get
things
half
opening
and
some
sectors
opening.
D
I
think
the
next
period
is
probably
possibly
the
more
difficult
period,
where
there's
that
sense
that,
for
example,
theaters
can
open,
but
we
can't
really
do
anything
because
it's
not
financially
viable
to
open.
So
it's
tricky
to
then
employ
actors
and
designers
and
directors
and
playwrights
to
come
and
put
work
on
in
our
buildings
and-
and
I
think
that's
that's
the
challenging
period
we're
entering
into
and
it's
how
we
sustain
through
from
now
to
social
distancing,
having
gone
and
being
able
to
gear
back
up
to
full
capacity.
D
I
think
that
phase
brings
with
the
opportunities
for
how
we
we
look
to
in
scottish
theater
terms,
how
we
look
to
rejuvenate
the
scottish
theatre
sector
that,
as
I
alluded
to
earlier,
had
actually
been
somewhat
denuding
over
the
past.
10
years,
so
I
think,
there's
an
opportunity
for
us
there
to
really
focus
on
making
work
in
scotland
and
focus
on
getting
work
out
to
audiences.
J
And-
and
sandy
may
also
have
a
perspective
on
this
from
the
the
point
of
view
of
the
wider
kind
of
supply
chain,
the
the
different
kind
of
organizations
that
work
with
the
sector
aren't
necessarily
kind
of
purely
cultural
organizations
themselves
are
the
same
challenges
facing
you
and
other
organizations
like
you
around.
Do
you
do
you
seek
to
retain
or
later
we
recruit.
F
So
a
lot
of
our
the
people
in
our
the
freelancers
that
we
use
and
myself
we
we're
all
passionate
about
what
we
do
and
other
jobs
of
little
interest,
but
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
the
the
guys
that
the
girls
and
guys
we
use
have
gone
to
your
drive
for
amazon
or
or
things
like
that,
which
actually
gives
them
a
more
kind
of
permanent
income
than
they're
used
to
actually,
if
it's
not
what
they
want
to
do
so,
certainly
short,
medium
term.
I
think
we
can.
F
We
can
pull
them
back
into
the
the
the
workplace
quite
easily
and
I
think
the
diversification
you
know,
we've
we've
changed
what
we
do
we're
doing
kind
of
hybrid
meetings,
a
lot
for
that's
the
kind
of
request
at
the
moment,
so
we're
kind
of
diversification
and
there's
there's
training
and
equipment
that
needs
done
for
that.
But
it's
keeping
the
some
of
the
freelance
guys
involved.
F
You
know
a
lot
of
lower
scale
and
lower
income
for
them,
but
they're
all
kind
of
hands-on
and
and
moment
and
quite
flexible
to
diversify
into
other
areas
just
to
just
to
keep
the
hand
in.
But
it
is
a
long-term
thing
for
for
for,
for
us
really
you
in
a
year's
time
what's
going
to
happen
and
and
if,
if
the
deflated
and
and
find
other
work
and
and
just
think,
I'm
not
going
to
risk
coming
coming
out
of
your
safe
job.
F
J
You,
if
there's
time
coming,
I
could
ask
if
lucy
from
museum
gallery.
Scotland
would
be
able
to
comment
specifically
on
the
issues
in
relation
to
publicly
owned,
or
are
you
run
venues
and
premises
and
organizations?
Is
there
a
a
different
set
of
challenges
and
solutions
in
relation
to
those
organizations.
G
Pointed
out
that
they've
been
called
upon
to
generate
a
lot
more
of
their
income
as
those
those
culture
trusts
have
embedded
from
when
they
were
first
parted
from
from
the
local
authorities.
They've
been
very
successful
in
doing
that,
and,
and
that,
of
course
has
then
created
the
vulnerability
without
that
income
there.
That
puts
them
in
a
difficult
position
now
and,
as
you've
said,
some
of
them
are
very
much
cross-subsidized
by
by
leisure
services
that
that
support
support
that
so,
yes,
they
need
a
very
specific.
G
I
think
piece
of
support
to
help
them
to
do
that,
and
I
think
we're
very
much
at
a
point
of
a
danger
of
losing
people
from
from
from
the
sector,
but
I
don't
think
we're
there
yet
and
I
think
that's
where
it
depends
on
the
interventions
that
come
forward
and
how
this
money
is
allocated.
I
think
as
to
what
what
that
then
looks
like,
but
it
is
they're
all
different
and
that's
one
of
the
challenges
is
that
some
of
them
include
libraries.
G
At
the
moment,
I'm
trying
to
diversify
the
volunteer
workforce
volunteers
play
an
enormously
important
role
across
the
culture
sector,
but
not
nice
in
museums
and
galleries.
They
tend
to
be
from
a
older
profile
and
therefore
have
been
particularly
affected
and
by
covert
and
many
of
them
don't
feel
ready
to
come
back
or
feel
safe
to
do
so.
They
were
working
hard
with
volunteer
scotland
and
others
to
try
and
diversify
the
volunteer
base
as
well
and
think
opportunities,
and
if
training
and
recognized
qualifications
can
come
through.
Some
of
that
that
just
just
helps
filter.
K
Thank
you,
computer,
and
I
will
try
to
to
follow
your
guidance
and
good
morning
pano.
Thank
you
very
much
indeed,
for
coming.
In
obviously,
we've
had
a
very
interesting
discussion,
but
I
think
it's
fair
to
say
it's
a
fairly
gloomy
discussion
and
I'm
not
entirely
sure
that
my
questions
are
going
to
add
any
particular
ray
of
sunshine,
but
I
do
feel
it's
important.
K
How
do
we
get
them
to
feel
confident
in
going
back
at
whatever
point
we
reach
when
that
can
happen
in
greater
numbers,
alec
referred
to
a
survey,
and
it
would
be
interesting
if
you
could
provide
a
bit
more
detail
for
the
record.
What
is
the
survey?
When
was
the
survey
carried
out
who
was
surveyed,
but
the
upshot
was.
It
seems
that
50
of
potential
audiences
want
to
be
convinced
about
social
hygiene
and
so
forth.
Hygiene
and
social,
distancing
and
so
forth
and
in
fact,
33
want
to
wait.
K
So
the
social
distancing
issue
is
no
longer
there.
So
I
just
wonder
taking
that
as
the
backdrop,
what
what?
What
is
the
cultural
sector
doing
itself
to
work
to
convince
audiences,
because
if
that
survey
is
correct
and
is
representative,
that
is
a
very,
very,
very
significant
hurdle
to
overcome,
irrespective
of
what
funding
is
is
made
available
and
other
support
in
the
interim
to
keep.
K
D
D
D
If
it's
helpful,
I
can
check-
and
I
can
revert
to
the
class
after
the
subsequent
to
this
meeting
if
it's
useful
for
the
panel
to
a
copy,
that's
available
for
distribution,
I'm
happy
to
see
if
I
can
facilitate
that
in
terms
of
what
can
we
do
as
a
sector
to
convince
audiences?
I
think
right
now,
a
lot
of
our
work
has
been
on
lobbying
governments
about
how
to
help
us
how
to
help
us
reopen.
D
K
Thank
you
and
nick
when
you're
responding,
I
mean
you've
already
alluded
to
it,
but
obviously
we
are
going
to
have
social
distancing
with
us
for
some
time
to
come,
be
it
two
or
one,
though,
for
music
venues
nick.
How
do
you
see
yourself
hoping
within
that
within
that
context,
in
terms
of
audiences
feeling
that
they
wish
to
come?
I
mean
I've
heard
people
talk
about
going
to
restaurants
and
they'll,
make
the
comment
or
or
being
bees
or
whatever
it
is
they're
taking
it
seriously.
E
E
We
want
to
reopen
every
venue
safely
and
I
think
actually,
that
message
is
the
strongest
one,
because
it
will
say
that
when
we
do
reopen,
we
think
things
will
be
safe,
but
in
from
that
point
of
view
we
have
to
follow
public
health
advice.
There
are
operators
of
nightclub
etc,
who
are
planning
to
put
their
future
customers
through
antibacterial
or
antiviral
spraying
tunnels
and
all
sorts
of
things
as
well
as
if
to
say
that
certain
things
will
definitely
be
safe
and
again.
Strangely,
the
news
this
this
week
was
exactly
that.
E
That
is
not
safe,
and
that
is
dangerous.
So,
while
public
health
advice
is
in
flux
all
the
time,
whilst
it's
not
clear
exactly
what
is
and
isn't
safe,
we
simply
need
to
wait
and
in
terms
of
investing
from
us
you
know
we
will
say
we
will
open
when
it
will
be
safe.
We
will
do
something
that
is
safe.
We've
got
a
show
on
salem
on
by
a
well-known
band
called
ash.
E
People,
I
think,
want
to
go
see
those
shows
which
are
absolutely
definitely
safe,
and
I
music
venue
trust
at
least-
is
encouraging
operators
not
to
any
public
messaging
that
might
imply
that
they
know
better
than
the
public
or
public
health
authorities
about
what
might
or
might
not
be
a
safe
way
to
go.
See
shows,
I
can
understand
cinemas,
for
instance,
being
bullish.
Uk
hospitality
have
been
essentially
writing
their
own
guidance
etc
and
the
right
to
do
so
the
right
to
try
and
prove
that
they
can
trade.
K
K
For
me,
though,
I
think
lucy
had
referred
to
in
her
opening
remarks,
northern
earlier
in
response
to
an
earlier
question
that
work
was
going
on
with
various
museums
to
help
them
become
more
resilient
and
it
would
be
useful
perhaps
if
lucy
could
give
a
few
examples
of
the
nature
of
that
work.
Thank
you.
G
Things
and
and
artists
can
can
rent
a
space
in
their
shop,
and
they
also
have
a
selling
exhibition
gallery
within
that
building
that
they
always
have
local
artists
with
paintings
on
sale.
So
things
like
that
they're
just
enterprising,
also
in
that
venue,
they've
got
a
room
that
they
rent
to
the
university
hundreds
of
islands,
there's
a
space
where,
with
computers
and
things
that
people
can
come
in.
So
it's
things
like
that,
just
diversifying
a
little
bit
how
their
spaces
are
used.
G
G
For
those
venues
which
is
clearly
in
in
relation
to
future
resilience,
really
really
important,
so
yeah
a
mixture
of
of
of
cutting
costs
and
of
raising
funding
that
needs
to
come
into
that,
and
I
think
we
will
be
looking
at
different
possibilities
of
that.
There
are
some
services
that
are
looking,
for
example,
local
authority
services
looking
to
get
communities
to
take
on
some
of
their
venues.
G
G
We've
been
working
with
with
hands
lines
enterprise
as
well
through
the
expo
north
program
to
try
and
make
links
between
museums
and
galleries
and
creative
industries
to
look
at
some
of
those
opportunities,
and
I
think
these
are
really
important
for,
but
for
a
bit
of
different
thinking
about
what
the
possibilities
can
be.
If
we
look
beyond
our
own
sort
of
individual
bits
of
the
sector,
silos.
K
Thank
you.
It's
a
very
comprehensive
answer
because,
just
briefly
clarify,
though,
that
online
activity
is
also
in
the
mix
because
online
activity,
because
I
would
have
thought
you're
talking
about
shots,
for
example,
I
would
have
thought
an
online
facility
to
the
extent
that
it's
possible,
depending
on
the
size
of
the
and
the
resource
of
the
particular
museum,
would
be.
You
know
the
way
to
go,
certainly
in
the
interim
period
of
time,
because
you
might
manage
to
create
some
business.
G
There
are
probably
some
opportunities
there,
the
museum's
on
a
huge
amount
of
online
activity
during
during
lockdown,
in
terms
of
keeping
content
visible
for
business
and
engaging
and
they've
done
some
online
fundraising.
There
hasn't
been
a
lot
of
income
generation
through
that
sort
of
online
access,
but
but
it's
definitely
opportunity
that
people
will
be
looking
at
that
and
uncertainty.
The
mix
that
they're
going
to
need
in
the
coming
years
that
that
was
that's
a
possibility,
we'll
be
exploring.
L
Thank
you
convener
and
good
morning
panel,
and
thank
you
all
for
your
very
forthright
answers.
I
think
it's
been
very
helpful
this
morning.
I
would
observe
that
at
the
moment
I'm
reading
gleek
house
for
my
next
book
group
meeting
and
I
do
feel
it's
a
rather
bleak
house
that
we're
looking
at
here
annabelle's
line
of
questioning
there
was
very
helpfully
leads
on
to
what
I
was
going
to
ask
about
diversification
and
adapting
to
online
services.
I'm
particularly
interested
in.
L
G
G
Activity
that's
being
focused
at
young
people,
and
I
think
one
of
the
things
that's
been
really
exciting.
One
of
the
positives
that's
come
through
and
some
of
the
online
activity
that
museums
have
created
and
they
were
creating
lots
of
fun
content
for
for
parents
where
it
was
home.
Schooling,
for
example,
and
actually
have
have
engaged
some
new
audiences
in
their
activity
that
perhaps
they
haven't
haven't
connected
with
before,
and
that's
been
really
really
positive
and
clearly
is
something
that
that
would
be
very
keen
to
see
continue.
G
There's
a
great
example
that
just
launched
this
week
from
the
scottish
maritime
museum,
that's
running
a
whole
program
of
new
online
activity
of
stem
learning,
and
it's
one
of
our
industrial
museums.
We've
got
lots
of
really
nice
exciting,
very
real
examples
of
of
how
technology
has
has
has
been
a
key
part
of
our
past
in
in
that
area
and
and
so
connecting
in
with
schools
on
on
things
that
are
very
much
relevant
to
the
curriculum
and
connected
into
curriculum
for
excellence
and
developing
those
in
partnership
also
with
with
schools.
G
C
C
The
book
festival-
I
don't
know
if
people
are
familiar
with
the
bayley
gifford
schools,
program
and
young
people's
program,
but
they've
got
a
very
strong
presence
this
this
summer
and
again
they
are
seeing
that
as
part
of
a
hybrid
model
which
they
are
they're
not
going
to
move
away
from
in
the
future.
They're
going
to
continue
to
to
build
on.
C
We've
got
storytelling
festival
coming
up
in
october
and
they
have
imagined
a
sort
of
hybrid
event
which
hopefully
will
be
resilient
to
whatever
is
happening
around
physical
distancing
at
that
time.
But
importantly,
they
have
made
micro
grants
available
to
storytellers
across
the
whole
of
scotland
to
so
that
communities
and
schools
and
clubs
and
request
a
storytelling
event
in
their
community,
and
then
their
network
of
storytellers
would
fulfill
that.
So
I
think
digital
is
an
essential
part
of
the
future,
but
I
don't
think
it
can
replace
live.
C
I
think,
having
that
those
reasons
to
come
together
and
having
the
the
sense
of
there
being
a
moment
where,
if
you're
not
in
the
moment
you
miss,
it
is
part
of
the
human
experience
as
part
of
the
learning
experience
and
it's
really
important
that
we
continue
to
bring
these
things
together.
As
as
we
adapt
and
innovate.
L
Thank
you,
I
couldn't
agree
more
and
we
certainly
do
need
to
keep
things
in
the
moment
in
terms
of
the
creative
industries.
Could
I
just
ask
one
quick
question:
maybe
aim
it
to
nick,
please
about
actual
digital
connectivity?
Has
it
been
an
issue
in
terms
of
musicians
and
performances?
I
mean,
I
know
I
think
I
think,
we've
all
seen
live.
Performances
and
musicians
have
given
generously
not
charging
for
some
of
their
performances.
E
E
A
M
Thank
you
convener.
I
wanted
to
ask
the
panelists
about
their
outreach
work
and
I
think
particularly
for
the
citizens,
theatre
and
festivals
and
maybe
museums,
but
I'm
happy
to
stick
with
the
first
two
timing.
Wise
and
obviously
you
know
people
are
fighting
for
survival
and
you
know
saving
jobs
and
just
finding
a
way
to
keep
the
doors
open
takes
precedence,
but
obviously
you
know
there's
really
important
work.
You
do
to
reach
disadvantaged
young
people
to
diversify
those
who
are
who
are
interested
in
theatre
and
culture.
D
Thanks
in
terms
of
outreach
work
and
much
of
it
was
initially
suspended
during
lockdown,
and
we
over
the
summer
when
the
school
holiday
started,
we
normally
run
a
two-week
summer
academy
program
for
for
young
people.
What
our
learning
department
brilliantly
did
is
is
retool
that
to
be
delivered
online
through
zoom
and
other
platforms,
so
we
ran
that
over
the
summer
and
that
we
learned
a
lot
from
doing
that.
First
time,
we've
done
it
and
it
was
it
was,
it
was
pretty
well
subscribed.
So
I
think
we
had
over
70.
D
D
The
first
instance
we
reckon
probably
up
until
about
october
november
time
and
we'll
continue
to
review
that
in
line
with
government
health
authority
guidance
about
when
we
might
be
able
to
start
having
them
in
person
rather
than
online.
It's
also
important
to
recognize
that
digital
poverty
is
an
issue
for
for
a
number
of
the
groups.
D
We
work
with,
but
what
some
of
our
team
have
been
doing
is
actually
going
out
into
the
community
in
a
socially
distanced
way,
standing
at
the
end
of
people's
paths
standing
outside
their
windows
and
and
coming
up
with
things
that
we
can
deliver.
That's
in
the
spirit
of
what
we
do
for
people
who
can't
access
us
digitally
and
we're
going
to
look
to
how
we
can
continue
to
do
that
and
and
the
money
we've
received
to
the
performing
arts.
Calling
value
relief
fund.
D
C
So
we're
really
keen
you
know,
as
we
come
back
to
make
sure
that
we
can
sustain
and
deepen
as
much
of
those
relationships
as
possible
for
community
resilience.
But
we
were
just
having
a
conversation
between
the
community
and
schools,
engagement,
workers
across
the
festivals,
the
other
day,
and
obviously
one
of
the
things
that's
happened
is
that
many
of
the
community
groups
we
work
with
have
kind
of
turned
themselves
into
first
responders.
C
You
know
their
or
food
banks
at
the
moment,
so
we
have
to
think
really
carefully
and
really
laterally
and
really
creatively
about
how
we
can
support
them
and
engage
with
them,
because
it's
not
necessarily
going
to
be
possible
for
them
at
the
moment
to
have
the
same
kind
of
experience
with
with
creatives
as
they
as
they
did
have.
And
yet
they
are
also
telling
us
that
you
know
they
see
that
access
to
culture
as
a
really
important
part
of
people's
mental
health
and
resilience,
of
course,
coming
back.
C
So
an
example
of
how
we
have
been
retooling.
Some
of
that
community
work
into
online
is
where
the
fringe
runs
a
very
extensive
fringe
days
out
program,
which
is
making
sure
that
people
who
are
living
in
less
advantaged
areas
of
the
city
are
feeling
that
connection
to
the
festivals
that
happen
in
their
city
and
feeling
that
that
they
are
invited
and
they're
part
of
it
and
a
theater
maker.
He
usually
works
with
street
theater
and
he's
been
doing
a
project
with
youth
theater
scotland.
C
M
Pace,
thank
you
very
much
as
a
second
question,
I'm
really
for
for
julia,
some
of
the
festivals
you've
mentioned.
I
don't
think
I
want
to
pick
individual
people
out
and
there's
understandable
reasons
why
it's
the
case,
but
they've
already
started
slimming
their
staff
teams
down,
and
I
know
that
you
know
some
ifs
will.
M
Move
forward
are
working
with
a
very
small
team
and
it's
just
what
support
you're
going
to
give
to
the
individuals
who
are
still
in
employment,
because
I
think
there's
a
concern,
certainly
anecdotally,
that
people
will
be
asked
to
do
more
for
for
for
even
less
financial
return,
I'm
in
already
most
already,
in
some
cases,
quite
a
low
paid
industry
where
people
are
doing
things
for
the
love
of
it.
And
it's
just
what
support
I
you
know
is
going
to
be
given
to
employees
who
are
going
to
have
a
very
tough
year.
C
C
But
they've
done
so
very
largely
with
the
the
the
team
that's
in
place
and
with
the
contractors
that's
in
place,
who've
been
able
to
go
with
them
in
terms
of
learning
new
skills
skills
that
will
be
very
marketable
and
and
resilient
for
the
future.
So
we
very
much
hope
that,
with
an
open
dialogue
with
our
teams,
we
can
go
forward
in
a
way
that's
going
to
be
sustainable
and
viable,
but
also
future
facing
and
giving
people
skills
that
will
be
able
to
take
them
into
the
the
future
jobs.
N
Yeah,
thank
you
a
lot
of
questions,
I'd
like
to
ask,
but
obviously
I'll
keep
it
brief.
Given
time
constraints-
and
the
first
question
I'd
like
to
ask
is
to
julia
in
her
submission,
she
talked
about
the
huge
loss
of
some
360
million
pounds
to
the
wider
economy
and
indeed
7
000
jobs
in
the
collapse
of
the
2020
season,
across
hospitality,
tourism,
creative
and
retail
sectors,
and
has
obviously
expressed
concerns
about
long-term
viability.
N
N
Long
term
is
the
festival
because,
as
we
know
in
in
previous
years,
people
who
come
from
overseas
often
put
hotels
in
or
months
or
even
a
year
in
advance
of
tickets
months
in
advance,
but
now
with
quarantines
and
banks
and
all
the
rest
of
it
there's
a
real
issue.
I
believe
about
cash
flow
with
people
thinking.
Well,
you
know
what
I
might
wait
until
july.
Just
to
see
the
festival,
you
know
it
is
going
to
actually
happen
or
I'm
not
going
to
be
quantity
in
excess.
N
C
And
I
I
know
that
michael
mark
from
sta
gave
evidence
yesterday
and
and
was
saying
that
the
the
international
market
remains
very
important
for
the
health
of
the
the
scottish
tourism
industry.
So
we
do
need
to
all
come
together
and
look
at
as
much
of
the
the
trend,
data
and
the
international
examples,
as
we
can
to
see
how
we
can
come
back
as
a
as
an
attractive
tourist
destination.
Continuing
to
have
those
reasons
to
visit,
like
the
festivals,
I
think
will
be,
will
be
a
key
part
of
that.
C
At
the
same
time,
obviously
we're
very
conscious
that
the
world
of
travel
was
set
to
change
very
radically
as
a
result
of
the
the
deeper
kind
of
crisis
of
climate
change
in
the
in
the
longer
term.
And
so
I
I
wouldn't
be
surprised
if
there
were
structural
changes
in
the
the
visitor
market
to
to
make
that
much
more
about
short
haul
in
the
future.
C
And
we
certainly
are
looking
at
how
we
can
on
the
performers
front
and
how
we
can
have
international
cultural
exchange
without
the
much
intense
global
mobility,
because
when
you
think
about
orchestras,
for
example,
who
are
booked
up
five
years
ahead
and
who
are
traveling
around
the
world
and
in
their
hundreds.
I
don't
think
that's
coming
back
time
soon.
So
there
absolutely
is
a
very
urgent
need
to
to
find
out
where
those
those
loyal,
curious,
responsible
visitors
are
that
are
going
to
be
the
future
life
build
of
our
sector.
N
Okay,
thank
you
for
that
and
alex
the
citizens
theatre.
I
have
to
say
very,
very
fond
memories.
For
me,
I
used
to
go
when
I
was
at
school.
It
just
take
up
literally
every
every
different
production
that
you
had
for
many
many
years
then,
and
thereafter.
So
obviously,
it's
a
quite
a
an
emotional
venue
for
me
and
I'm
sure
for
many
thousands
of
others
and
who
grew
up
with
this
theater
now
in
terms
of
the
the
the
long-term
future
of
the
sets
and
we've
already
touched
on
your
survey.
N
93
of
people
are
missing.
Attending
live,
live
events,
but
only
19
would
consider
returning
just
because
of
the
open
and
three
quarters
are
looking
for
some
form
of
social
distancing,
and
yet
you
need
70
attendances
who
break
even
ever
since.
So
I'm
just
wondering
are
you
looking
for
the
scottish
government
and
glasgow
city
council
and
others
to
perhaps
produce
a
five-year
plan
for
the
future
of
emphasis?
D
D
So
therefore,
it's
probably
autumn
2022,
before
we're
trying
to
mount
full
seasons
of
work
back
in
our
theater
back
in
our
home.
I
would
hope
by
then
social
distancing
is
a
distant
memory
and
the
world
is
starting
to
feel
a
lot
more
normal
again
and
on
those
circumstances,
I
feel
far
more
confident
about
throwing
the
doors
of
the
theater
open
in
terms
of
a
longer
term
plan,
and
I
think
it's
up
to
us
to
come
up
with
that
plan.
D
It's
not
up
to
the
government
or
local
authorities
come
up
the
five-year
plan
for
the
sits
in
order
to
help
us
come
up
with
that
five-year
plan.
What
I
really
need
is
is
long-term
funding
commitments.
We've
been
lobbying
for
that
before,
with
with
local
authorities
and
with
scotland,
the
funding
isn't
long
enough
to
plan
on
for
businesses
of
our
scale,
and
that
would
apply
to
numerous
theatres
around
scotland.
D
D
I
can't
speak
for
what
operas
or
shows
you've
been
to
see
and
the
audience
that's
been
around
you,
but
I
think,
depending
on
what
what
you
go
and
see-
and
you
will
see
vastly
different
audiences
in
the
theater-
and
I
know
we
can
put
pieces
like
train
spotting
or
there's
been
shows
like
barbershop
chronicles
that
have
been
touring
around
the
uk
and
and
things
like
that,
drawing
massive,
diverse
audiences.
I
think
a
lot
of
it
is
in
the
hands
of
what
we
choose
to
put
on
stage.
D
N
A
A
It
was
particularly
nick
and
alex
with
regards
to
70
million
pounds
of
consequentials
and
nick
had
said
that
creative
industries
had
told
him
it
was
allocated
nick.
Who
are
you
referring
to
when
you
talk
about
creative
industries?
Are
you
talking
about
a
civil
servant
in
the
scottish
government?
Are
you
talking
about
a
branch
of
scottish
enterprise.
E
Oh
sorry,
most
specifically-
and
I
don't
mean
to
be
here
to
dub
anyone
in
because
I
understand
that
meetings
that
we
have
importantly
aren't
public
meetings.
But
we
have
weekly
meetings
with
simon
cuthbert
kerr
who's,
the
head
of
creative
industries
working
under
fiona
hislop,
and
that
was
the
impression
that
he
repeatedly
gave
us.
A
A
Yeah:
okay,
thanks
very
much
for
that,
although
there
are
rules
around
consequentials-
and
I
know
that
the
government
has
asked
to
er
if
they
can
put
money
that
was
allocated
for
capital
into
revenue
and
that's
something
that
the
uk
government
have
so
far.
As
I
understand
it
not
done,
but
we'll
continue
to
keep
an
eye
on
that
and
indeed
keep
an
eye
on
what
you've
told
us
about
the
allocation
of
the
97
million.
That's
very
interesting.
I
think
the
committee
will
want
to
follow
up
on
that.
So
thank
you
very
much
to
all
our
witnesses.