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Description
www.parliament.scot
-
1. Article 50 negotiations: The Committee will take evidence from-
Professor Anand Menon, Director, UK in a Changing Europe.
2. Transient Visitor Levy: The Committee will take evidence from
Fiona Campbell, Chief Executive, Association of Scotland’s Self-Caterers;
Marc Crothall, Chief Executive, Scottish Tourism Alliance;
Peter Irvine MBE, Author and Founder of Unique Events;
William Macleod, Executive Director - Scotland, UK Hospitality.
3. Work programme (in private): The Committee will consider its work programme.
Proposed future business
For further information, contact the Clerk to the Committee, Dr Stephen Herbert, on europe@parliament.scot or 0131 348 5234.
-
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
25th
meeting
of
the
committee
in
2018,
I'd
like
to
remind
members
and
the
public
to
turn
off
their
mobile
phones
and
any
members
using
electronic
devices
to
access
committee
papers
should
please
ensure
they
are
turned
to
silent.
We
have
received
apologies
today
from
Jamie
Greene
MSP.
Our
first
item
of
business
today
is
an
evidence
session
on
the
article
50
negotiations
with
professor
Anand
Menon,
director
of
the
ESRC
Yuki,
in
a
changing
Europe
program.
Professor
Menon
has
indicated
that
he
would
like
to
make
a
short
opening
statement.
A
B
B
What
is
the
current
state
of
play
in
the
article
50
negotiations?
Perhaps
it's
very
very
hard
to
say
I
mean
what
is
obviously
clear.
Is
that
the
big
issue
on
the
table
at
the
moment
is
the
Northern
Ireland
backstop?
What
is
equally
clear
is
that
the
issue
that
has
got
Westminster
in
a
frenzy
is
checkers,
even
though
actually
checkers
isn't
going
to
be
part
of
any
legally
binding
agreement
that
we
come
out
with
after
the
article
50
process.
B
It
is
conceivable
the
process
that
ye
level
won't
end
there.
It
is
perfectly
conceivable
wind
up
with
another
special
summit
after
November
in
the
event
that
never
that
we
with
a
deal-
and
it's
worth,
bearing
in
mind
that
you
know
there
are
lots
of
different
deadlines
in
the
article
50
process.
For
some
people
the
deadline
is
Christmas,
because
Christmas
is
when
firms
are
going
to
trigger
contingency
plans.
B
If
there's
no
certainty
about
the
future,
but
in
political
terms,
we
could
sort
out
the
deal
with
the
European
Union
in
January
and
still
have
time
for
the
process
to
to
wind
its
way
through
till
the
end
of
March
and
then
looking
at
the
domestic
level.
The
key
milestones
are
not
only
the
vote
on
the
deal
because
Westminster
gets
to
vote
on
the
deal
that
comes
back,
but
then
remember
that
Westminster
also
has
to
vote
on
the
bill.
B
That
puts
that
deal
into
law
and
I
would
just
point
out
that
historical
precedent
suggests
that
members
of
parliament
will
not
always
vote
the
same
way
in
the
first
vote
as
they
do
in
the
second.
If
you
go
back
to
1973
when
we
joined
the
European
communities,
there
was
a
big
majority
for
the
disagreements
to
join
and
a
majority
of
only
nine
for
the
European
communities
act.
So
when
MPC
the
detail
of
the
legislation
that
puts
in
place
the
agreement
that
they've
signed
with
the
European
Union,
they
might
change
their
mind.
B
So
they
effectively
have
two
bites
of
the
cherry
and
two
opportunities
to
veto
the
deal
and
we're
not
entirely
sure
when
that
second
deal
will
be
held
in
terms
of
impacts.
Clearly,
a
leaving
the
single
market
in
the
customs
union
will
have
a
profound
impact
on
our
economy.
There's
no
point
trying
to
deny
that
be
those
impacts
are
going
to
vary
considerably
regionally.
B
Ironically,
if
you
look
simply
in
terms
of
trade
interdependence
than
the
two
parts
of
the
United
Kingdom
that
are
least
exposed
to
trade
with
the
European
Union
are
Scotland
and
London
and
I,
say
ironically,
because
of
course
they're.
The
two
parts
of
the
country
that
most
had
voted
most
strongly
to
remain.
B
We
have
a
research
team
that
I'm
happy
to
point
you
towards
their
website,
who
do
a
detailed
tracking
of
what
they
expect
regional
impacts
to
be
and
they're
in
far
better
position
to
talk
about
the
detailed
economics
than
I.
The
final
question
I
tried
to
address
was
the
issue
of
whether
or
not
it
is
conceivable
that
we
will
remain
in
the
single
market
or
the
Scotland
will
and
I'll
just
point
you
to
two
things
that
we
say
in
the
written
evidence.
B
Firstly,
whilst
the
European
Union
is
clearly
willing
to
consider
a
unique
deal
for
Northern,
Ireland
I
think
that
absolutely
does
not
mean
they
will
be
willing
to
do
the
same
for
Scotland.
The
reason
they
are
showing
flexibility
over
Northern
Ireland,
despite
I,
should
say
grave
disquiet
about
that
special
deal
on
the
part
of
some
member
states
is
because
the
Republic
of
Ireland
are
insisting
on
it
that
will
not
apply
to
the
same
extent
to
Scotland.
The
second
thing,
I
would
say
is
whatever
flexibility
the
current
government
might
show
in
negotiations
with
the
European
Union.
B
A
So
even
if
a
backstop
was
somehow
agreed,
is
that
any
guarantee?
Given
everything?
That's
happened?
Given
Saltzburg?
That
said,
the
checkers
plan
could
get
through
because
it
divides
the
single
market
in
the
sense
that
it
it
wants
to
be
in
the
single
market
for
goods,
but
not
for
services.
And
of
course
it
doesn't
sign
up
to
free
movement
of
people.
Robin.
B
There
are
two
so
firstly
on
Keith
after
himself.
Clearly
it
is
worth
bearing
in
mind
that
the
Parliament
does
have
the
vote
on
this.
There's
some
slight
confusion
over
this,
because
he
also
tweeted
yesterday
that
we
will
not
vote
in
favor
of
an
extension
to
article
50
and
the
European
Parliament
doesn't
get
a
vote
on
that.
So
that's
slightly
misleading,
but
on
the
terms
of
the
deal
itself,
the
European
Parliament
does
but
I'd
separate
two
things.
B
There's
the
backstop
and
those
checkers
checkers
for
me
is
an
attempt
to
ensure
that
implementation
of
a
backstop
doesn't
lead
to
regulatory
checks
within
the
United,
Kingdom
and
you're.
Absolutely
right.
The
European
Union
has
addressed
all
sorts
of
concerns
about
the
backstop.
My
personal
view
is
the
European.
Union
has
a
tendency
to
address
interest
as
principal,
in
the
sense
that
there
are
several
instances
where
the
European
Union
has
a
has
has
waived
its
principle.
So
you
could
think
about
the
association
agreement
with
Ukraine.
B
You
can
think
about
the
deal
with
Switzerland
or
you
could
think
about
the
deal
on
offer
to
Northern
Ireland
and
in
all
those
instances,
the
integrity
of
the
Four
Freedoms
is
somewhat
mitigated.
Okay,
what
they
are
saying,
though,
is
they
will
not
do
that
for
the
United
Kingdom
as
a
whole,
which
is
fair
enough.
There
are
good
economic
reasons
not
to
do
that.
So
I,
don't
think
checkers
as
it
is,
will
fly.
B
I
still
remain
cautiously
optimistic
that
between
them,
the
British
government
in
the
European
Union
will
find
a
way
of
preventing
the
border
in
the
island
of
Ireland,
whilst
reducing
as
far
as
possible
the
visibility
and
the
impact
of
checks
across
the
Irish
Sea
I
mean
I.
Think
that's,
ultimately,
where
a
solution
there
will
have
to
be
some
sort
of
differentiation,
I
think
between
Northern
Ireland
and
the
rest
of
the
United
Kingdom
because
of
the
European
Union's
insistence
that
either
we
all
remain
in
the
single
market
or
there
will
have
to
be
checks.
A
B
Would
say
by
about
mid
to
late
January,
they
need
to
sign
it
off
in
the
European
Council
to
go
to
the
European
Parliament
to
be
safe,
to
be
done
by
the
29th
of
March
I
mean
there
are
two
ultimate
deadlines
as
the
29th
of
March,
which
is
a
political
deadline.
Here,
I
find
it
very
very
hard
to
see
how
this
government,
under
this
Prime
Minister
politically,
will
be
able
to
extend
that
deadline,
because
I
think
they've
made
great
play
of
stressing
that
date.
A
C
You
very
much
convener
negotiated
transition
period
as
part
of
the
draw
agreement
is
scheduled
to
end
in
December
2020,
but
obviously
it's
going
to
be
extremely
challenging
to
negotiate
a
and
finalise
future
relationship
within
those
21
months
after
UK's
life
that
you
need
to
include
provision
in
the
withdrawal
agreement
for
an
extension.
It's
a
transition
period,
as
argued
by
Fabian
Gillian
Tobias
lot.
C
B
And,
of
course
it
takes
anything
from
9
to
12
months
to
get
these
things
ratified
because
in
the
European
Union
trade
deals
have
to
be
ratified
by
national
parliaments
and
in
cases
like
Belgium
that
we're
all
now
all
too
familiar
with
by
regional
Parliament's
as
well.
So
actually
it
is
far
far
less
than
21
months
now
all
I
can
do
here
is
report
the
views
of
my
EU
law.
B
The
reasoning
for
that
is
that,
for
some
people,
even
transition
as
it
stands
is
a
bit
of
a
stretch
of
article
50,
because
article
50
is
basically
about
the
past,
not
the
future
and
the
European
Council
is
kind
of
overstepping
its
powers
by
agreeing
a
new
third
party
release
relationship,
albeit
for
only
those
21
months
with
a
with
a
third
country.
It
looks
like
we're.
Not
gonna,
have
a
legal
challenge
to
that.
So
so
far
so
good.
C
B
I
mean
the
the
are
untangling
from
EU
institutions
and
policies
and
processes
is
going
to
be
staggered
and
will
take
place
at
different
points
in
different
times
and
you're.
Absolutely
right.
Data
is
one
of
those
areas,
but
that's
slightly
different
from
transition
transition
is
a
specific
status
we
will
enjoy
with
regard
to
the
European
Union,
where
effectively
in
economic
terms,
we
continue,
as
we
are
now
just
with
no
representation
in
the
institution's.
So
that's
very
different
to
the
individual
sectoral
deals.
A
D
You
good
morning,
professor
and
just
pick
up
with
a
couple
of
points,
so
with
regards
to
the
Irish
banks.
Top
issue
obviously
remains
unresolved
at
this
stage,
difficult
to
see
how
it
will
be
resolved
and
given
the
diametrically
opposed
views
emerging,
but
I
just
wondered
in
terms
of
the
the
unity
or
otherwise
of
the
27
on
that
issue,
and
indeed
more
genuinely
well.
What
would
your
view
be
that
it
seems
in
terms
of
the
public
position
that
the
27
remain
unified
on
their
negotiating
stance
in
terms
of
the
EU?
D
B
On
this,
of
course,
there's
all
sorts
of
rumor
and
counter
rumor
and
there's
a
piece
in
the
FT
today
that
sort
of
hints
at
the
fact
that
the
Irish
might
be
softening
towards
British
proposals
more
than
other
EU
member
states.
I,
don't
know
whether
that
true
or
not,
the
EU
has
certainly
publicly
kept
its
unity.
Quite
impressively,
I
mean
there
are
different.
There
are
different
shades
of
opinion
among
the
Member
States
about
whether
or
not
the
EU
should,
or
should
not
be
more
flexible,
I
think.
B
Ultimately,
all
national
capitals
realize
that
it's
simply
not
worth
the
hassle
to
engage
in
a
full-scale
fight
amongst
themselves
and
it's
far
easier
to
leave
this
with
the
European
Commission
than
open
up
what
could
be
a
damaging
fight
between
them.
One
other
point
of
division
is
that
there
are
some
member
states
that
are
already
rather
twitchy
about
the
Northern
Ireland
backstop,
as
proposed
in
the
December
agreement.
B
I've
heard
people
close
to
the
French
government
say
that
this
raises
a
profound
danger
that
Northern
Ireland
becomes
a
sort
of
manufacturing
hub
that
manufacturers
from
the
rest
of
the
UK
will
relocate
to
Northern
Ireland,
to
benefit
from
the
fact
that
Northern
Ireland
will
be
in
some
of
the
single
market,
but
not
all
of
it
and
therefore
gained
a
comparative
advantage.
There
are
already
divisions,
but
they're
not
breaking
through
to
the
political
level
as
yet
what
happens
in
the
future?
We
don't
know.
B
If
we
don't
get
this
right,
appealing
to
the
sort
of
broader
geopolitical
issues
at
state,
rather
than
simply
the
technical
issues
of
EU
law,
I,
don't
know
what
will
happen.
It
seems
to
me
very,
very
unlikely.
The
EU
unity
is
going
to
break
publicly
and
to
our
benefit
before
the
end
of
this
process.
D
I
mean
you
heard
there
too,
and
I
speak
as
a
former
lawyer
practicing,
you
love.
What's
the
private
sector,
you
speak
of.
You
know
this
moving
out
of
the
realm
of
EU
lawyers
into
the
realm
of
those
engaged
into
your
politics.
I
wonder:
would
that
apply
to
the
the
DUP,
because
their
statements
this
week
suggest
that
the
geopolitical
situation
on
a
wider
scale
is
not
really
something
that
is
forefront.
B
Absolutely
not
I
mean
what
we
have
at
the
moment
is
several
simultaneous
games
of
chicken
being
played
by
different
people
against
different
people,
so
the
British
government
is
playing
chicken
with
its
own
back
benches.
It's
playing
chicken
with
the
European
Union,
explain
chicken
with
the
Irish
Republic,
the
DUP
is
playing
chicken
with
the
British
government.
There
are
people
in
the
British
government
who,
in
private
will
say
ultimately
bless
you
that
ultimately,
the
DUP
would
rather
compromise
them
face.
B
The
risk
of
a
Corbin
government,
everyone
is
is
assuming
that
everyone
else
is
talking
tough,
but
will
soften
towards
the
deadline.
What
is
very
interesting
to
me
is
that
both
in
the
December
agreements
and
repeated,
even
in
the
heat
of
battle
immediately
after
Saltzburg
by
the
Prime
Minister,
is
that
phrase
there
will
be
no
new
checks
between
the
Northern,
Ireland
and
the
rest
of
the
united
kingdom
unless
Stormont
agrees
to
it.
So
it
is
still
conceivable
at
the
government.
D
To
be
seen
at
one
last
point
that
you
mentioned,
who
you
suggested
that
the
in
other
examples
of
trade
agreements,
the
fundamental
freedoms
had
been
somewhat
mitigated,
I
mean
I,
hear
what
you
say,
but
I
would
put
it
to
you.
Nonetheless,
is
it
not
the
case
that
you
know
if
you
don't
have
the
jurisdiction
of
the
European
Court
of
Justice?
D
As
far
as
the
four
fundamental
freedoms
are
concerned,
then
you
don't
have
the
jurisdiction
of
the
ECG,
which
means
absolutely
that
you
have
a
very
loose
form
of
cooperation
and
you
don't
have
anything
near
the
status
quo
in
terms
of
freedom,
movement
of
goods,
for
example,
because
those
are
the
rules
of
the
club.
If
you're
not
subject
to
the
umpire,
you
don't
have
the
same
set
of
rules,
it's
not
not,
nonetheless,
still
the
position,
irrespective
of
what
their
motivation
in
terms
of
matter
principle,
might
be.
D
B
I'd
say
that's
true
with
ring
course
in
the
sense
that,
for
instance,
if
you
look
at
the
EEA
agreement,
it
is
a
way
if
you
want
to
be
cynical
about
it
of
dressing
up
the
direct
authority
of
the
European
Court
of
Justice,
and
proponents
of
the
ei
model
all
say:
look
you're
slightly
freer
of
the
European
Court
of
Justice.
Actually,
I.
Don't
think
you
are
that
much
freer,
because,
ultimately,
if
you
look
at
the
track
record,
he
you
law
gets
implemented
in
the
European
Court
of
Justice.
B
Has
oversight,
I
think
you're
absolutely
right,
but
there
are
two
different
issues.
Aren't
there,
though
there
are
the
issues
of
whether
or
not
you're
within
the
whole
of
the
single
market
or
bits
of
it,
and
that
there's
the
issue
of
how
those
bits
you're
in
are
justiciable
and
I.
Think
actually,
the
negotiations
over
governance
will
be
absolutely
fundamental
and
it's
something
we
haven't
spoken
about
yet
enough
I
mean
in
the
government's
white
paper.
B
Of
course
they
put
forward
some
very
vague
proposals
on
governance
and
how
governance
can
be
managed
short
of
direct
ecj
authority,
but
I
think
you're,
absolutely
right
from
the
EU
side.
That's
non-negotiable.
Either
you're
under
I
mean
that's
one
of
the
big
sort
of
cultural
differences
between
the
two
sides.
A
E
B
What
is
clear
is
that
both
sides
are
committed
to
not
having
a
border
on
the
island
of
Ireland.
They
differ
in
how
you
get
there
and
they
differ
in
how
sacrosanct
each
other's
principles
are.
In
terms
of
a
final
deal,
what
I
mean?
What
is
curious
to
me
about
the
BRICS
I
mean
the
brexit
process
as
a
whole.
Ultimately,
in
his
simplest
level,
the
brexit
decision
was
a
decision
to
make
trade
with
our
biggest
and
nearest
trading
partner
slightly
more
difficult,
and
you
know
one
of
the
ways
I
interpret
the
brexit
vote.
B
Is
it's
a
triumph
of
politics
over
economics,
so
economics
driving
political
decisions
is
no
longer
the
case
in
this
sort
of
post
brexit
world,
and
actually
that's
very,
very
clear.
If
you
look
at
the
checkers
agreement,
I
mean
for
the
checkers,
for
me
is
a
wonderful
example
of
politics
triumphing
over
economics.
If
you're
an
economist
and
you
wanted
to
write
checkers
to
ensure
the
best
economic
deal
for
the
United
Kingdom
in
its
relations
with
the
European
Union
you'd
have
turned
it
on
its
head.
B
You
said
we
don't
have
to
worry
about
agriculture,
because
it's
such
a
significant
proportion
of
our
GDP
manufacturing
is
relatively
unimportant.
We
need
to
strike
a
deal
on
services
because
that,
ultimately,
is
what
our
economy
is
about.
Cheque,
as
it
seems
to
me,
turns
that
logic
on
its
head
for
political
reasons,
partly
the
political
reason
of
the
Northern
Irish
border
I
check,
as
was
written
with
it,
with
a
view
to
avoiding
a
border
rather
than
with
a
view
to
anything
else,
and
also
because
of
the
political
rather
than
the
economic
salience
of
sectors
like
manufacturing.
B
So
I,
don't
think
politics
is
economics
is
driving
this
process
on
either
side.
Do
you
remember
back
in
the
referendum,
several
spokespeople
of
the
leaf
camp
were
expressing
their
confidence
that
the
German
car
makers
would
go
and
see
the
German
Chancellor
and
say
look
this
will
be
bad
for
business
and
that
therefore
the
German
Chancellor
would
cave
it
I
think
on
both
sides.
Politics
is
running.
This
show
rather
than
economics.
E
Just
on
the
issue
of
the
Germany
and
all
of
you
27
nations
we
have
held
on
more
than
one
occasion
in
this
committee,
but
but
exit
is
not
the
bonding
issue
within
the
eu-27,
they've
got
many
other
domestic
issues
and
bird
eggs
are
just
number
5
or
6
or
7
down
the
line.
Do
you
still
think
that's
the
master
case
and
not
you
27
yep.
B
Britain's
being
treated
and
you'd
like
the
EU
to
show
more
flexibility,
you
still
have
to
make
a
decision
as
to
whether
you
burn
political
capital
in
the
European
Union
fighting
that
corner,
whether
you
keep
your
powder
dry
to
fight
the
wars
over
the
eurozone
that
are
bound
to
come
and
I
think
everyone's
making
the
calculation
that
actually
this
isn't
their
first
priority.
At
the
moment.
B
B
Rishel
thing
going
forward
is
that
the
European
Union
will
not
be
binding
itself,
and
the
government
has
made
noises
about
making
this
legally
binding
in
some
way,
but
I
find
that
very
very
funny
very,
very
hard
to
see
how
they
do
that,
not
least
because
you'll
have
a
new
negotiating
team
in
place
next
year.
Governments
might
change
in
Europe
and
so
preferences
might
change.
B
F
Antiquated
you
know
the
the
complexities
of
that
really
do
become
quite
apparent,
depending
on
with
it,
where
we
end
up
finding
ourselves,
and
if
that
is
the
case,
you
know
what
is
the
next
step,
if
there's
not
that
legally
binding
process,
that
gives
us
the
opportunities
that
are
expected
and
and
if
there
is
some
changes
in
some
of
the
views
and
and
and
governments
across
U
dub,
then
then
the
whole
idea
then
even
becomes
more
problematic
going
forward.
Well,.
F
B
Into
play
now,
for
me,
a
blind,
brexit
or
a
blind
exit
is
the
necessary
outcome
of
any
decision
to
leave
the
European
Union
because
of
the
European
Union's
own
rules.
They
can't
formally
negotiate
a
trade
deal
with
a
Member
State.
The
article
50
process
is
backward
rather
than
forward-looking,
so
I
don't
see
how
you're,
not
at
least
partially
blind,
because
by
law
you
can't
be
anything
but,
and
it
is
a
real
danger-
and
this
is
where
David
Davis
was
absolutely
right.
Then.
B
The
structure
of
the
process,
however,
means
that
that's
not
going
to
happen,
and
the
danger
is
that,
of
course,
once
we
leave
going
back
to
the
earlier
question,
we
become
even
less
of
a
priority
once
that
withdrawal
agreement
is
signed
than
we
are
now
and
that
actually,
therefore
moving
the
trade
negotiations
forward
and
getting
concessions
will
be
even
harder,
but
I
don't
see
any
way
around.
That.
A
If
I
could
just
ask
a
supplementary
to
that,
obviously,
as
you
said,
the
withdrawal
agreement
and
the
transition
terms
are
legally
binding.
Who
ties
the
future
relationships?
A
political
statement
now
we've
had
a
number
of
UK
politicians
such
as
Michael
Gulf,
who
have
hinted
that
we
should
simply
get
out,
and
then
we
can
air.
We
can
now
worry
about
the
future
after
that,
or
that
we
can
make
promises
now
which
we
could
renege
on
in
the
future.
I,
don't
just
statements
like
that
effect
and
the
negotiations.
B
Well,
it's
very
hard
to
say:
I
mean
I've
just
come
here
from
the
Conservative
Party
conference
and
you've
got
a
hope
that
statements
like
that
don't
affect
them
too
badly,
because
that
was
all
we
heard
in
Birmingham.
What
was
remarkable
at
Michael
go
statements?
Was
it
managed
to
unite
the
brexit
errs
and
the
government
in
opposition
to
them?
B
But
there
is
absolutely
no
doubt
that
people
on
the
continent
listen
to
what
we
say
here
and,
for
instance,
one
of
the
reasons
why
the
French
in
particular
are
absolutely
dead,
set
against
anything
that
looks
like
partial
single
market
membership
and
are
slightly
nervous
about
even
for
Northern
Ireland.
Is
that
they've
listened
to
the
rhetoric
from
London
since
the
1980s
about
deregulation
and
they
take
it
seriously.
B
I,
don't
think
we've
ever
acted
in
the
way
we've
spoken,
but
a
succession
of
prime
ministers
from
both
the
big
parties
have
taken
great
pleasure
in
going
to
Brussels
and
talking
about
the
need
to
get
rid
of
regulations.
And,
having
said
this
for
so
long,
it's
perhaps
unsurprising
that
our
European
partners
are
taking
it
seriously,
and
that
is
why
one
of
the
big
fights
to
come
will
be
the
fight
over
the
so-called
level
playing
field.
B
If
there's
a
degree
of
nervousness
that
whatever
we
sign
up
to
now,
we
won't
adhere
to
in
the
future
and
that,
therefore,
the
European
Union
is
very
very
anxious
that
they
get
these
assurances
over
a
level
playing
field
that
we
will
not
diverge
from
their
policies,
even
in
areas
that
aren't
directly
covered
under
the
ambit
of
the
future
relationship.
So
I
think
it's
not
necessarily
what
Michael
Gove
said,
but
I
think
it's
years
of
rhetoric
have
made
some
of
our
partners
a
little
bit
worried
about
allowing
us
to
go
where
we
want.
A
B
They
ended
up
with
a
compromise
of
I
think
nine
years,
or
something
like
that
for
for
that,
so
there
is,
there
is
concern
over
it.
I
personally,
am
not
that
concerned
about
the
European
Parliament
trying
to
block
the
agreement,
not
least
because
one
of
the
interesting
things
about
the
brexit
process
has
been
the
unprecedented
levels
of
coordination
between
Commission
member
states
and
Parliament.
B
The
European
Parliament
has
been
kept
in
the
loop
all
the
way
through
this
process
and
during
the
negotiations
when
we
were
talking
about
citizens
rights,
their
concerns
were
fed
into
the
EU
negotiating
position.
So
yes,
there
are
concerns
about
this
I.
Don't
think
the
concerns
will
go
so
far
as
to
sing
the
European
Parliament
vote,
the
agreement
down
but
I
think
they've
ended
up
with
probably
the
only
compromise
they
could
between
a
legal
system
that
is
constitutionalized.
That
is
like
the
European.
You
know
one
that
is
far
less
so
like
ours.
G
Continuing
this
theme
around
the
this
troll
agreement
in
the
future
relationship
agreement,
some
of
the
more
rational
breaks
of
Tears
looking
at
the
cop
taking
down,
seem
to
be
going
back
to
where
they
were
at
least
rhetorically
a
couple
years
ago
in
stating
that
the
withdrawal
agreement
can
be
managed,
as
essentially
a
monumental
fudge,
shifting
as
much
of
this
as
possible
and
to
the
negotiations
on
the
future
relationship.
So
what
is
currently
causing
difficulties
for
the
withdrawal
agreement?
G
Their
argument
is
you
can
fudge
that
by
punting
into
the
next
round
of
discussions
for
a
future
relationship,
I
I
don't
see
how
that
works,
but
interest
in
your
thoughts
on
if
politically,
that
has
any
chance
at
all.
You
talk
about
there's
a
series
of
games
of
checking
going
on
here.
This
seems
to
be
based
on
the
idea
that
Europe
will
blink
first
in
that
regard,
is
there
any
political
possibility
of
that?
Well,.
B
I
have
to
say,
I
think
you're,
right
and
they're
wrong
in
the
sense
that,
yes,
this
is
what
is
happening,
and
it's
very
I
mean
one
of
the
calculations.
I
think
of
government
whips
about
the
vote
to
come
in
Parliament
is
that
they
will
be
able
to
peel
off
a
sufficient
number
of
brexit
sirs,
who
just
want
brexit
to
happen
because
of
the
threat
of
a
second
referendum.
If
the
if
the
agreement
gets
voted
down,
so
I
think
that
that
is
going
on.
B
B
You
could
fudge
the
future
relationship
which
we
want
to
trade
against
the
withdrawal
agreement,
so
it
puts
us
in
a
weaker
position,
but
the
withdrawal
agreement
itself,
as
we've
seen
in
the
sections
on
the
money
on
citizens,
rights,
has
to
be
crystal
clear
and
I.
Think
given
what
has
happened
over
the
Irish
backstop,
the
European
Union
will
make
certain
that
there
is
no
scope
for
ambiguity
in
the
language
around
that
in
the
version
that
is
finally
agreed.
You.
G
Mentioned
the
idea
of
second
referendum,
people's
vote,
ratification
vote
and
beyond
the
domestic
British
political
challenges
of
whether
that
is
possible
or
not,
and
how
would
the
27
react
to
that?
There
been
a
number
of
statements
from
various
European
politicians
who
are
open
to
it,
but
mentioned
already
the
impressive
unity
of
the
block.
B
How
would
we
withdraw
if
we
in
speculation
upon
speculation,
were
we
to
have
a
referendum?
Were
it
to
decide
that
we
were
to
remain
in?
What
would
happen?
Then?
No
one
legally
knows
whether
we
could
unilaterally
revoke
article
50
or
whether
we'd
have
to
go
back
to
the
negotiating
table
with
them.
That's
a
points
over
which
lawyers
disagree.
B
Yeah
CJ
yeah,
there's
a
very
good
Steve
Pierce
has
got
a
blog
on
EU
law
and
one
of
the
blogs
in
that
is
a
debate
between
him
and
Steve,
whether
all
of
the
University
of
Oxford,
and
they
take
opposing
sides
as
to
whether
or
not
we
can
unilaterally
revoke
article
fifteen
is
well
worth
reading
to
see
some
of
the
legal
issues
on
that.
The
third
issue,
of
course,
then,
is
whether
they
would
grant
as
an
extension,
in
the
event
that
we
decided
to
have
a
referendum,
but
we
couldn't
do
it
in
time.
That's
by
unanimity.
B
Of
course,
I
find
it
very
hard
to
believe
that
they
wouldn't
partly
because
I
find
it
quite
hard
to
see
as
getting
to
that
point
under
this
prime
minister,
in
which
case
we've
got
a
new
negotiating
team,
so
it'd
be
very
helpfully
refer
you
to
say.
Actually
no
we've
had
enough
of
this.
Let's
just
stop
and
you
could
fall
out
with
no
deal.
Thank
you
thank.
H
B
We
honest
answer:
I
should
give
you
is
I'm
not
entirely
certain
there
indeed,
I
mean
in
the
short
term,
with
the
transition
period.
Very
little
will
happen,
but
beyond
that
I
do
not
know
the
Spanish
seem
means
and
Spain
isn't
the
most
stable
of
countries
politically
at
the
moment
either,
which
adds
to
the
uncertainty
over
this.
B
The
danger
is
that
a
weak
Spanish
government
sees
a
chance
to
play
the
national
card
by
playing
hardball
over
Gibraltar
I
mean
it's
one
of
the
one
of
the
tragedies,
but
what
a
perhaps
inevitable
tragedies
of
the
brexit
process
is
how
given
the
stakes
in
in,
what's
going
on,
places
like
Gibraltar
and
places
like
the
Channel
Islands
have
been
overlooked
and
their
special
status
is
not
taken
into
Sofia.
I
mean
I.
B
H
B
In
the
abstract,
yes
in
the
political
world,
so
farm,
no
and
I
think
it's
just
worth
stressing
the
degree
to
which
the
Northern
Ireland
border
is
being
treated
differently
by
the
European
Union,
because
the
Republic
insist
that
it
should
be
I
mean
that's
the
key
variable.
It's
a
nice
example
of
you
know
that
what
are
the
things
that
you,
if
you're
a
member
state-
and
you
really
need
the
support
of
the
European
Union
and
you
get
it.
It
makes
a
big
difference.
I'm.
H
H
B
Barely
a
day
goes
by
where
you
don't
see
them
in
Parliament
or
the
party
conferences
I
mean
they
have
been,
they
have
been
working
this
as
hard
as
they
possibly
can.
I
mean
to
the
point
where
at
least
people
are
aware
of
the
fact
that
there
is
a
Gibraltar
issue,
but
how
that's?
How
that
sort
of
rises
up
in
political
salience
I,
just
don't
see
just
because
of
the
scale
of
the
other
issues
that
are
involved
in
this.
H
Thank
you.
The
other
questions
gonna
ask
was
Fisheries,
is
getting
well
and
truly
done
over
here,
because
we're
soon
to
be
in
a
position
where
our
fisheries
minister,
and
indeed
the
UK
officials
Minister,
won't
even
be
at
their
roundtable,
where
they
sort
out
quarters
for
the
future,
and
that
just
sets,
that's
gonna,
be
what
its
gonna
be
like
for,
for
lots
of
industries
in
the
future.
Isn't
it
well,
that's
an
industry
we're
already.
This
experience
is
real.
Now,
no.
B
Absolutely
I
mean
we
won't
be
around
the
table.
I,
don't
know
what
what
the
solution
on
Fisheries
is
going
to
be
again.
I
could
point
you
to
one
of
our
teams:
there's
a
guy
called
Craig
McCann
gas
at
the
University
of
the
West
of
Scotland,
who
is
doing
a
big
research
project
on
brexit
and
Fisheries
and
what
it
means
for
Scottish
fishing
communities
and
I.
B
Advise
you
to
look
at
his
website
and
even
maybe
talk
to
him
at
some
point,
because
he
knows
everything
about
fish
there
is
to
know
which
is
not
something
I
could
say
of
me.
But
yes,
the
broader
points
on
regulation
is
absolutely
true,
which
is
why
I
have
my
I
mean
even
with
with
with
something
like
checkers
I.
Don't
think
that
solves
the
problem
for
manufacturing
to
the
degree
that
people
seem
to
think
it
does
in
the
sense
that
for
manufacturers
as
important
as
customs
and
teres
is
the
issue
of
regulation.
B
B
Fiat
encou
is
sitting
around
a
table
setting
the
regulations
that
will
determine
what
our
cars
look
like
in
the
future
and
we're
not
even
in
the
room,
so
you're,
absolutely
right
not
being
round
that
table
when
the
regulations
are
negotiated
is
something
that
concerns
a
lot
of
manufacturing
firms
in
this
country.
I.
H
Agree
and
did
I
mean
last
week
the
boss,
Sir
Pierre,
said
Volks
all
would
gone
to
short-term
if
not
closed.
Nissan
and
Jaguar
Land
Rover
bosses
have
all
said
much
the
same
in
the
last
week
in
the
run-up
to
the
Tory
Party
conference
and
I
didn't
notice,
the
prime
minister
making
any
observations
about
the
economy
of
the
car
industry.
But
yet
Greg
Clark
signed
some
kind
of
deal
with
Nissan,
which
we
don't
know
what
it
is
about
a
year
and
a
half
ago.
Can
you
shed
any
light
on
on
what
was
what
is?
B
Now
absolutely
no
idea
what
was
what
was
done
with
Nissan.
What
I
would
say,
though
I
mean
I,
think
it's
worth
clarifying
that
the
car
manufacturers
I
think
we're
talking
about
a
No
Deal
scenario,
not
a
deal
scenario
and
I.
Think
the
head
of
the
Royal
Bank
of
Scotland
was
on
the
Today
programme
today,
saying
also
you're
talking
about
that
I.
B
Don't
think
anyone
has
said
they're
going
to
close
in
the
event
that
we
leave
the
European
Union.
It
will
be
interesting
to
see
what
happens
in
the
future.
I
mean
talking
to
the
big
foreign
car
firms.
What
they
will
say
is
obviously
this
will
make
things
hard
and
we'll
have
to
reassess,
but
equally
they'll
say
we
have
a
lot
of
sunk
costs
in
the
United
Kingdom.
We've
paid
an
awful
lot
of
money
for
plan,
so
we're
not
just
going
to
close
that
down
and
walk
away
so,
for
instance,
the
case
of
BMW.
B
They
have
those
the
the
plants
and
the
infrastructure
here
and
I
think
we're
also
the
second
biggest
export
market,
so
I,
don't
think
it'll
be
as
extremist
people
sort
of
walking
away
because
of
the
previous
investments.
They've
made
them
because
of
the
importance
of
this
market,
but
it
certainly
will
give
them
cause
to
rethink
how
they
do
things
and
actually
perhaps
the
most
interesting
person
to
listen
to
on
this,
who
has
become
quite
a
character.
Now
is
the
Japanese
ambassador.
B
Not
the
regulation
is
the
bit
the
matters,
but
the
regulation
matters
as
well.
Yeah
yeah
I
mean
obviously
you
know.
Honda
have
gone
on
record
to
say
how
much
a
disruption
at
the
ports
will
cost
them
because
of
their
just-in-time
supply
chain.
So
I'm
not
for
a
moment
saying
the
customs
arrangements,
don't
matter
what
I'm
saying
it's
important,
not
to
forget
the
regulatory
stuff,
because
for
some
manufacturers
at
least
that
is
absolutely
fundamental
as
well.
Okay,
thank.
H
B
A
That
point
point
that's
been
made
to
this
committee:
is
this
increasingly
difficult
to
separate
manufacturing
from
from
services
from
goods
from
services?
You
know
if
you,
if
you
buy
an
engine,
for
example,
you
still
have
a
service
agreement
on
that
engine.
So
it's
you
can't
separate
the
two
and
two
to
go
back
to
my
earlier
points.
We
seem
to
be
accepting
that
we're
talking
as
if
you
know
how
do
we
implement
checkers
when
again
so
many
people
they
talk.
The
European
Union
have
said
that
that
division
between
goods
and
services
is
simply
unacceptable.
A
B
I'll
say
several
things
to
that:
one:
yes,
you're,
absolutely
right
that
services
and
goods
are
often
bundled
and
I.
Think
Rolls
Royce
would
reveal
some
figures
about
that.
The
proportion
of
his
exports
that
are
actually
services
that
our
service
contracts,
our
maintenance
contracts
tied
to
the
goods
that
they
export.
So
yes.
B
Secondly,
though
there
is
that
separation
that
will
be
allowable
for
Northern
Ireland
in
the
event
that
the
backstop
is
implemented,
so
it
is
possible
to
do,
however,
messy
it
is.
And
thirdly,
as
I
recall
about
two
or
three
weeks
ago,
Michel
Barnier
came
out
with
some
figures
about
the
potential
damage
that
British
comparative
advantage
would
be
in
the
event
that
we
were
in
some
bits
of
the
single
market
and
not
the
others,
and
I
still
haven't
seen
where
those
figures
come
from
convincingly.
A
B
It
might
be
politically
impossible
what
I'm
my
argument
is
in
principle.
It
is
not
even
possible
because,
if
you're
doing
it
for
Northern
Ireland,
it
is
in
principle
possible.
I
think,
then
we
get
to
a
political
and
interest
driven
argument,
which
is
absolutely
fine
that
they
will
not
at
the
moment
they're
saying
they
will
not
accept
it.
For
the
United
Kingdom.
A
C
Sir,
can
you
state
the
conservative
confidence
the
investigating
are
known
so
that
the
migrants
would
have
to
be
on
fifty
thousand
pounds
a
year
before
they
come
into
the
UK
and
obviously
those
see
some
economic
occasions
of
that.
But
what
would
they?
What
are
the
implications
for
the
negotiations
of
that
announcement?
Well,.
B
B
Cause
it'll
cause
a
hardening
of
attitudes
and
and
generally
when
people
are
talking
about
immigration
policy,
that
the
two
sides
involve
responding
kind.
So
yeah
it'll
become
harder
for
British
people
to
go
to
other
EU
member
states
and
bear
in
mind
as
well,
and
it's
worth
stressing
the
point.
Brits
living
or
working
in
other
EU
member
states
will
have
rights,
but
they
will
lose
the
right
of
free
move
freedom
of
movement.
B
So
there
are
interesting
questions
around
the
person
who
lives
in
Germany
and
works
in
Luxembourg,
the
Brit,
for
instance,
because
they'll
have
the
rights
in
the
country
they
live,
but
how
portable
those
are
is
something
we
have
to
talk
about
in
the
future
and
that's
what
Brits
living
in
the
rest
of
the
United.
And
it's
what
the
final
points
I
would
say,
because
I
think
we
don't
talk
enough
about
this.
B
Nothing
has
been
done
legally
to
address
the
issue
of
what
happens
to
British
nationals
in
the
events
of
no
deal
because
they're
all
waiting
for
the
sign-off
of
the
withdrawal
agreement
and
so
in
in
in
in
in
other
EU
member
states.
British
nationals
will
fall
into
a
weird
kind
of
legal
limbo
because
they
won't
be
covered
by
the
law.
They
won't
be
covered
by
the
provisions
of
War.
It
says
about
the
European
Union,
because
there
won't
be
you
citizens
anymore,
and
yet
there
will
be
no
immigration
lore
about
them
because
they
wouldn't
have
drafted.
Yet.
A
I
You
convener
apologist,
fair
I
thing
and
let's
run
to
the
meeting
and
in
the
I
understand,
already
discussed
the
Northern
Ireland
as
year
before
I've
arrived.
But
in
your
evidence
the
committee
also
mentioned
the
geographical
indicators,
the
intellectual
property
rights
and
the
protection
of
personal
data.
There's
been
other
issues
within
the
withdrawal
agreement
that
are
causing
difficulty.
I
B
Only
answer
is
I
can't,
say,
I'm,
afraid,
I,
haven't
sort
of
followed,
I
spent
two
weeks
of
party
conferences
and
not
been
paid
much
attention
to
what's
been
happening
in
Brussels,
so
I
mean
the
geographic
indicators
was
certainly
a
big
issue,
two
or
three
weeks
ago,
whether
they
made
any
progress.
I
just
don't
know
it's.
I
B
Think
it's
worth
emphasizing
this
point
actually
because
I
think
it's
often
misunderstood.
It
is
the
conservative
and
unionist
party
I
think,
even
if
the
current
British
government
were
not
dependent
for
vote
for
the
votes
of
the
DUP,
this
would
be
a
massive
political
issue
for
for
the
conservative
v4
parts
of
the
labour
party
as
well.
B
No
one
what
I
mean
you
know,
I
think
it
Dominic
Greve,
who
said
during
the
withdrawal
agreement
debates
in
July
that
he
does
not
know
a
parliamentarian
who
would
vote
for
the
implementation
of
the
backstop
as
it
is
currently
drafted.
There
is
a
very
strong
feeling
amongst
many
MPs
that
they
cannot
preside
over.
B
I
The
concern
ahead:
do
you
not
think
that
doesn't
recognize
the
history
of
modern
Ireland?
The
conflict
has
been
in
Northern
Ireland.
The
the
solution
that
came
was
a
good
trade
agreement.
The
membership
of
the
European
Union
allowed
a
feeling
within
on
an
island
that
you
could
almost
you
could
choose
where,
if
you
were,
you
could
feel
that
you
were
part
of
Ireland.
B
Absolutely
in
here
actually
I'd
recommend
the
work
of
Katie
Heywood
at
Queen's
University
in
belfast,
who
understands
that
border
like
no
one
else,
I
think.
But
the
paradox
here
I
think
is
that
since
the
Good
Friday
Agreement,
essentially
in
the
case
of
both
Northern
Ireland
and
actually
to
a
degree
Scotland,
what
we
have
done
is
work
to
make
borders
more
ambiguous.
That
is
to
say,
you
can
have
national
identities,
but
the
borders
between
them
are
fuzzy
and
the
people
can
move
quite
freely.
But
brexit
was
a
reassertion
of
a
rather
old-fashioned
notion
of
borders.
B
A
E
You
can
gonna
it's
just
as
one
question
about
something
that
was
said
at
the
recent
conservative
conference
and
it
was
Jeremy
Hunt's
comment
regarding
the
EU
kind
of
Soviet
doesn't
count,
though
he
has
since
also
backtracked
on
those
there
on
those
comments,
but
nonetheless
it
did
Stephen
on
the
conference
war.
Do
you
think
this
type
of
thing
is
actually
going
to
help
negotiations
and
and
and
how
do
you
think
that
will
actually
affect
relationships?
B
Think
we
should
fall
into
a
trap
of
thinking.
This
is
in
any
way
new
I
mean
one
EU,
I'm
Buster
put
it
to
me
at
the
conference.
Disappointed,
but
not
surprised
and
I
think
that
kind
of
sums
it
up.
I
think
you
know
our
European
partners
are
aware
of
the
way
our
politicians
act,
particularly
at
party
conferences.
B
Ie
the
countries
of
Central
and
Eastern
Europe
I
mean
saying
something:
that's
going
to
offend
the
Baltic
state
strikes
me
as
a
bad
foreign
policy,
but
it
is
just
it
is
just
the
tenor
of
language
that
we
have
at
party
conference
is
a
different
thing
and
and
and
you're
talking
to
a
different
audience
and
I
know.
You
know
the
papers
are
full
of
these
reports.
Saying
conservatives
act
as
if
no
one
else
can
hear
them
outside
the
room.
E
Just
one
final
question:
after
the
29th
of
March
at
some
point
in
the
future
in
the
economy
does
Tomlin,
the
economy
starts
to
start
the
software
costs
start
going
up
and,
and
it
potentially
could
go
harvest
actually
fit
within
the
you
keep
your
domain.
That's
never
had
that's
new
yeah
and
you
thought
that
you
got
Montana
introduced.
E
B
I
think
we
probably
just
need
to
dig
into
the
idea
a
little
bit
about
what
happens
to
the
British
economy.
There
seems
little
doubt
that
brexit
is
already
having
an
impact
on
the
British
economy.
The
John
springfed
at
the
Center
for
European
reform
was
doing
it
I.
Think
monthly
estimate
of
what
brexit
has
cost
the
UK
economy.
To
date,
it
I
think
is
most
laces.
B
Latest
estimates
came
out
last
weekend
if
I
remember
rightly
so,
there's
an
impact
that
there
is
a
danger
and
I
see
this
amongst
sort
of
remain
campaigners
now
of
exaggerating
or
overdramatizing.
What
that
impact
will
be
leaving
the
single
market
in
the
customs
union
will
impact
on
the
British
economy.
Okay,
it
won't
impact
straight
away.
There
will
be
other
impacts
like
we're
almost
certainly
seeing
a
big
slowdown
in
investments
at
the
moment,
because
I
mean
because
common
sense
dictates
that
we
are
that
companies
are
waiting
to
see
what
happens
before
they
invest.
B
We
won't
mean,
to
all
intents
and
purposes,
leave
the
single
market
and
the
customers
Union
till
after
transition,
and
that's
when
those
effects
will
start
to
hit
and
depending
on
whatever
trade
deal.
We
might
get
okay.
What
the
estimates
suggest
is
that
that
will
lead
to
in
the
area
of
a
five
percent
hit
to
the
British
economy
and
by
hits
the
British
economy
it's
worth
being
very
specific
five
percent
smaller
than
it
would
otherwise
have
been
over
a
period
of
years.
B
Then
a
lot
of
people
are
making
them
out
to
be
fast,
more
subtle,
far
more
harder
to
discern
particular
employment
levels,
stay
relatively
high
and
far
more
Pikul
to
pin
on
the
single
issue
of
brexit,
because
it's
happening
over
a
period
of
years.
So
we
shouldn't
necessarily
assume
that
all
of
a
sudden
everyone
turns
around
and
says-
oh,
my
god,
the
economy's
doing
worse.
B
It's
because
we've
left
essentially
the
way
you'll
know
our
economy
is
feeling
an
impact
of
leaving
the
European
Union,
as
if
you
pick
up
the
FT
and
you
look
at
a
graph
of
growth
across
Europe
and
see
that
ours
is
lower
than
everyone
else
in
the
eurozone,
and
most
people
don't
do
that
so
that
that's
the
first
cautionary
note,
if
you
like,
is
that
it's
gonna
be
relatively
subtle.
This
impact
as
to
your
the
meat
of
your
question.
B
If
we
want
to
rejoin,
we
can
apply
to
rejoin,
but
we
apply
to
rejoin
like
everyone
else,
I
think
there
are
two
things
worth
bearing
in
mind
one:
what
will
the
political
context
in
the
United
Kingdom
be?
That
would
allow
that
and
I
think,
insofar
as
the
impacts
that
you
talk
about
are
visible,
it
is
perfectly
conceivable
that
a
majority
or
a
large
proportion
of
the
British
people
rather
than
thinking.
B
Oh,
my
god,
that
was
a
mistake
we
should
rejoin,
will
think
we
were
absolutely
right
to
leave,
because
the
reason
our
economy
isn't
doing
very
well
is
because
they
punished
us
on
purpose.
So
we
might,
in
the
short
to
medium
term,
see
a
hardening
of
anti-eu
attitudes
in
this
country
if
the
economy
doesn't
do
very
well,
but
even
assuming
that
a
government
decides
that
it
is
right
to
have
to
attempt
to
rejoin,
they
will
then
face
the
problem
that
they
will
not
get
this,
especially
the
special
opt
outs
and
that
Britain
enjoys
as
a
member.
B
Now
so
we're
talking
about
the
budget
rebate
where
potentially
they're,
not
necessarily
talking
about
Schengen
in
the
euro
zone
as
well
is
we
will
be
applying
to
reach
almost
certainly
applying
to
rejoin
on
terms
that
are
far
more
less
favorable
and
far
more
politically
contentious
than
our
current
membership
was
sorry.
That
was
a
very
long
sentence.
D
Briefly,
I
mean
you
know,
listen
to
the
debate
this
morning
and
obviously
there's
so
many
unknowns
at
this
stage,
but
I'm,
surely
one
known
is
that
checkers
is
dead.
The
EU
has
said
that
if
you
read
that
what
is
proposed,
it
is
incompatible
with
rooms
of
the
club.
So
you
can't
be
a
half.
You
can't
be
half
pregnant.
You
know
you're
in
the
club
you're,
not
in
the
club.
So
if
checkers,
if
that
is
correct,
I
mean
what
is
plan
B
in
the
part
of
the
UK
government.
D
Did
you
think
they
have
a
plan
B
or
C
or
D
or
E,
or
what
in
the
next
few
weeks
you
know,
checkers
is
unworkable.
Checkers
is
unworkable.
Checks
says
the
EU.
What
does
the
UK
do?
Put
its
hands
over
its
ears?
I,
don't
know
what
you've
just
come
from
the
horse's
mouth
and
Birmingham.
What
is
the
thing
about
a
plan
B.
B
B
I
mean
it
is
a
plan
to
prevent
a
border
on
the
island
of
Ireland.
So
it
was
partly
like
everything
in
political
negotiations
about
signalling
it
was
about
signaling
to
the
Irish
and
the
EU.
Look.
We
are
going
to
do
everything
we
can
to
avoid
this.
No
one
in
the
British
government
expected
that
they
would
just
tick,
checkers
and
say
fine,
but
they
expect
there
to
be
a
negotiation
and
the
government
is
saying:
okay
come
back
with
the
specific
gripes
you
have
and
we
will
negotiate
and
that's
what's
going
on.
B
The
one
thing
we
haven't
talked
about,
which
I
hope
we
don't
talk
about
because
I'm
no
expert
on
it
but
I
think
is
fundamental.
Are
the
government's
customs
plans
and
there
I
think
the
European
Union
is
simply
saying
look
you're
in
the
customs
union
or
in
the
customs
union,
but
these
sort
of
fancy
down
arrangements
that
you're
suggesting
at
the
moment
just
won't
fly
partly
for
the
reason
you
said
before,
because
it's
a
question
of
legal
authority.
You
can't
have
your
tariffs
and
your
border
released
by
something
that
is
outside
your
legal
jurisdiction.
A
Just
to
finish
off
I
wouldn't
ask
you
about
detailed
Arrangements
about
the
customs
plan,
but
I
was
struck
Kim,
where
you
were
talking
about.
You
know
the
scenario
affair
of
a
free
trade
agreement.
If
the
breaks
are
tears,
when
I
and
at
the
very
end
of
the
people
that
you
submitted
to
us,
you
said
that
modeling
work
by
the
yukine
are
changing.
A
Europe
shows
that
livestock
farmers
in
particular
would
be
badly
hit
by
the
scenario
of
a
zero
tariffs
that
would
accompany
a
free
trade
deal,
and
you
said
that
the
modeling
also
demonstrated
that
Scotland
would
be
worst
affected
in
the
scenario
of
you.
Don't
have
unilateral
tout
of
removal,
particularly
if
the
net
payments
were
removed
as
well,
and
you
know
obviously
be
farmers
and
Scotland.
A
Your
single
dough
has
been
particularly
vulnerable,
and
is
that
anymore,
that
you
can
tell
us
about
that,
because,
obviously,
that's
of
of
great
interest
I
represent
an
area
of
Scotland
where
we
have
a
your
20%
of
their
the
the
beef
inherit,
and
it
will
be
of
great
concern
to
people
in
my
constituency.
What.
B
I
can
certainly
do
is
point
in
the
clock
in
the
direction
of
that
research
and
the
people
who
do
it
at
the
University
of
Newcastle,
because
I'm
many
things,
but
not
a
macroeconomist
and
I'd.
Rather,
they
spoke
for
themselves,
but
what
I
would
say
is
here
I
mean
the
here
is:
is
one
area
where
the
the
Tory
Party
conference
was
absolutely
fascinating
because
it
seems
to
me
there
is
an
ideological
fight
going
on
within
the
Conservative
Party,
and
agriculture
is
one
of
the
key
things
at
stake
here.
B
There
are
some
people
in
the
Conservative
Party
who
are
saying.
Brexit
is
an
opportunity
to
remove
subsidies,
to
cut
tariffs,
to
have
cheap
food,
and
there
are
other
people
in
the
Conservative
Party
I'm
talk
about
the
parliamentary
party
whose
response
would
be.
To
paraphrase,
are
you
mad?
I
live
in
a
rural
constituency,
we'll
never
win
it
again
and
I.
B
Remember
I
was
a
I
was
a
fringe
event
at
the
Tory
Party
conference
about
agriculture,
and
it
was
fascinating
because
person
after
person
in
the
audience
put
their
hand
up
and
said,
look
I
voted,
brexit,
I'm,
a
brexit
abut
and
the
butts
were
in
no
particular
order.
We
want
to
maintain
a
steady
flow
of
seasonal
labor
or
our
business
model
is
unsustainable.
We
want
a
continuation
of
subsidies
or
our
business
model
becomes
unsustainable.
We
need
to
maintain
tariffs,
or
our
business
model
remains
unsustainable.
B
A
A
Second
agenda
item
this
morning
as
an
evidence
session
on
the
proposed
transient
visitor
levy-
and
this
is
a
committee
ii
evidence
session
on
this
issue.
Following
on
from
an
evidence
session
with
local
authority
representatives
on
the
13th
of
september.
I
witnesses
today
are
fiona
campbell,
the
chief
executive
of
the
association
of
scotland,
self
caterers
mark
ruther,
a
chief
executive
of
the
scottish
tourism
alliance,
Peter
Irvin
MBE,
author
and
founder
of
unique
events
and
William
McLeod,
the
executive
director
for
Scotland
of
Yukie
hospitality,
and
welcome,
and
thank
you
for
coming
to
give
evidence
to
us
today.
A
Now
I've
been
indicated
that
no
one
wants
to
make
any
opening
statements.
So
if
I
could
then
perhaps
open
by
asking
the
panel
what
their
view
is
on
their
announcement
this
week
by
the
First
Minister
over
a
consultation
on
the
transient
visitor
levy
and,
and
secondly,
and
could
ask
those
members
representing
the
industry
what
research
they
have
done
on
the
impact
of
any
transient
visitor
levy?
Should
it
be
implemented?
Who
would
like
to
start.
J
L
K
You
on
behalf
of
us
all
really
for
the
opportunity
of
presenting
to
you
this
morning.
I
think
I
can
speak
for
for
the
three
of
us
here
from
the
industry
side
that
we
very
much
welcome
the
announcement
from
the
First
Minister.
We
wait
to
see
the
detail
of
40
emerges
from
that,
but
I
think
it
responds
really
to
a
request.
We
made
to
the
culture
secretary
for
the
Scottish
government
to
really
begin
to
take
control
of
the
debate.
K
That's
been
running
for
quite
some
time
on
the
introduction
of
a
tourist
tax
or
a
transient
visitor
levy.
We
felt
that
to
a
certain
extent-
and
my
colleagues
can
speak
further
for
themselves,
but
we
felt
that
there
was
an
assumption
from
Khosla
and
the
local
authority
side
that
the
principle
of
the
tourist
tanks,
TVL
coming
into
place
had
been
established
and
the
principle
that
it
would
be
devolved
and
localized
had
also
been
established,
and
certainly
in
my
case,
if
that's
the
case,
then
that's
passed
me
by
we.
K
We
feel
that
there's
a
whole
range
of
issues
that
need
to
be
discussed
and
debated
before
we
reach
that
issue
of
the
principle
of
attacks
coming
in
certainly
from
a
ukh
perspective.
Our
of
the
reasons
for
our
opposition
are
I
hope
clearly
enough
set
out
in
the
the
paper
we
submitted,
but
I
think
we're
somewhere
away
as
yet
I
think
we
need
to
look
at
what
existing
research
there
is
I
think
we
need
to
look
at
what
new
research
might
need
to
be
commissioned.
K
I,
don't
think,
there's
been
any
real
assessment
of
why
we
need
a
tourist
tax
or
a
tvl
and
I
think
we
need
to
establish
that
first
of
all
and
if
there's
a
need
for
it,
what
are
the
options
and
there's
been
no
real
assessment
made
of
the
impacts
on
consumers
or
businesses?
Turning
to
the
latter
part
of
your
question,
what
research
have
we
done?
I
I
personally
for
ukh
we've
done
quite
a
bit
of
research.
K
Looking
at
existing
studies,
we've
looked
at
tourist
taxes
in
Europe,
we've
looked
at
v80
rates
in
Europe,
Japan
foreign
part
of
our
submission,
but
more
recently,
because
nobody
else
had
done
it.
We
took
a
bit
of
a
punt
and
started
looking
at
what
the
economic
impact
of
tvl
of
tourist
tanks
might
be.
At
the
Scotland
level,
we
looked
at
what
the
accommodation
industry
turnover
was
in
Scotland
we
looked
at
average
room
rates.
K
We
looked
at
the
the
percentage
increase
on
accommodation
spend
that
might
be
represented
by
a
new
tax,
and
we
also
looked
at
applying
to
that
academic
research
that
looks
at
tourism
price
cities,
and
our
view
is
that
if
those
are
two
pounds
per
night
per
room
tourist
tax
applied
throughout
Scotland
that
that
could
result
in
reduced
turnover
of
a
hundred
million
for
the
accommodation,
industry
and
75
million
of
reduced
spend
in
other
parts
of
the
tourism
economy.
So
preliminary
figures
would
be
reduced,
spend
of
175
million
so.
A
J
I
mean
I
echo.
What
what
will
he
said?
It
was
obviously
at
our
national
conference
on
Monday
that
the
announcement
was
made
and
there
was
something.
As
you
know,
we
were.
We
welcomed
in
terms
of
the
the
Oscars
who
had
been
for
exactly
that
from
our
member
council
group
and
I.
Think
what
I'd
like
to
stress.
Obviously,
the
Scottish
tourism
alliance
has,
under
its
umbrella
of
membership,
around
75%
of
the
total
industry,
and
our
member
council
is
made
up
of
a
broad
range
of
of
trade
bodies
and
they
are
not
just
accommodation
providers.
J
So
when
we
convened
following
the
I
suppose
the
the
hotting
up
of
the
conversation
in
and
around
Edinburgh
and
from
Koslow
in
particular
in
response
to
the
kozlov
paper,
the
council
member
group
convened-
and
you
know,
those
members
include
the
Scottish
tour
guides-
Association,
the
Confederation
of
passenger
transport,
Green
Tourism
and
the
Scottish
country
sports
tourism
group.
Obviously,
the
license
trade
sales
Scotland,
a
couple
of
destinations,
the
visitor
attraction
sector
and
every
one
of
us
or
every
one
of
those
bodies
were
unanimous
in
their
decision.
J
J
You
know
there
would
be
less
money
to
be
spent
in
some
of
these
smaller
attractions
on
the
high
streets
and
the
knock-on
effect
is
considerable
and
I.
Think
significantly
picking
up
on
on,
what's
being
said,
is
that
one
thing
that
maybe
is
being
presumed
by
many
years
that
we've
enjoyed
a
significant
rise
in
international
visitors?
We've
had
a
very
as
a
result
of
the
exchange
rate.
Obviously
our
tourism
numbers
and
17
were
very
well.
J
You
know
received
by
everybody,
but
there
is
a
mark
decline
and
evidence
to
suggest
that
the
domestic
market
of
which
60%
of
Scotland's
tourism
market
is
domestic,
is
actually
slipping
away
and
the
ability
to
spend
by
that
particular
audience
is
declining.
I.
Think
everybody
in
this
room,
if
you
like
me,
which
I'm
sure
you
are
feeling
the
squeeze
on
your
own
household
outcome,
household
expenditure-
and
you
know
even
the
statistics
that
are
have
been
reported,
showing
the
1718
change,
whilst
they're
very
healthy.
J
And
you
know
without
that
analysis,
and
that
really
in
depth
the
economic
modelling
being
done,
it
would
be
very
foolish
to
to
rush
through
into
taking
forward
what
as
well,
he
has
alluded
to
already.
Certain
authorities
know
far
further
down
the
track
in
assuming
that
it
could
be
applied
so
I
suppose.
We've
also
done
just
in
other
bits
of
evidence
in
terms
of
gathering
information,
something
that
we
had
reported
or
gathered
in
insight
and-
and
it
was
reported
in
the
Glasgow
and
the
Herald
on
Sunday
two
weeks
ago
is
the
reality.
J
I
suppose
of
costs
to
business.
And
yes,
top-line
suggests
that
you
know
industry
is
doing
or
perceptions
are
they
all
the
industry
is
doing
well,
because
numbers
of
numbers
are
strong
well
in
every
case
of
all
the
hotels,
large
and
small
groups
across
different
across
different
parts
of
Scotland
shows
an
erosion
of
margin
and
profit
and
therefore
their
ability
to
reinvest
not
in
their
asset
to
stay
competitive,
but
also
their
people
is
marginalized,
and
if
you
then
had
to
a
further
tax
will
be
it's
being
quoted
as
a
visitor
tax.
L
A
M
Well,
I
certainly
welcome
that
this
consultation
is
taking
place
and
I
think
it
may
be
that
there
are
voices
there
that
are
not
being
heard
and
although
I
don't
have
a
stat
stats
and
surveys
at
my
fingertips
at
all,
I
do
have
quite
a
lot
of
personal
experience,
a
view.
As
you
said,
I'm
an
author
and
I
have
a
guidebook
to
Scotland
and
every
three
years
it's
updated
and
I've
just
completed.
M
Certainly
in
my
head
and
among
my
colleagues,
because
for
many
years
I
was
on
the
board
of
festivals,
Edinburgh
and,
of
course,
I
was
the
founder
and
director
and
running
a
private
business
to
make
and
was
hopefully
happen
for
25
years
and
as
those
years
went
by
and
I
began
to
feel
quite
strongly.
I
used
to
said
I
wish.
M
The
situation
has
changed.
I
stopped
doing
Hogmanay.
Just
over
a
year
ago.
The
company
that
ran
it
now
run
it
now.
It's
a
different
business
model.
They
have
bars
in
the
city
centre,
many
of
and
as
far
as
I'm
aware,
little
pennyweights,
whatever.
So
that's
a
very
lucrative,
very,
very
limited
business,
and
that
allows
the
city
of
Edinburgh
Council
to
sort
of
decrease
that
what
they're
putting
in
but
I
think
this.
The
the
principle
still
pertains
that
and
as
I
understand
it.
I
may
be
wrong.
M
But
this
argument,
this
debate
stems
from
the
fact,
perhaps
right
now
that
the
city
of
Edinburgh
Council
wish
to
consider
introducing
a
levy,
and
so
I
would
argue.
Perhaps
we
will
talk
a
bit
more
about
this.
The
Edinburgh
is
not
just
a
different
case.
It's
an
exceptional,
an
extraordinary
case,
the
city
of
Edinburgh,
from
what
I
can
see
from
when
I
travel
around
the
world
and
travel
around
Scotland,
and
it's
an
exceptional
case
and
I.
M
Think
those
of
us
that
live
here
and
are
aware
that
in
the
last
few
years,
has
become
an
extraordinary
tied-off
of
tourism,
has
landed
on
our
shores
here
in
the
city,
more
buses,
more
tourist
buses,
open
tour
buses
and
more
people
in
the
world
mile
more
people
really
everywhere,
more
Airbnb.
All
those
things
now
I
think
there's
a
holistic
approach
should
be
taken
to
all
that
this
is
just
part
of
it,
but
I
I
would
suggest
that
certain
parts
of
Scotland
the
highlands,
particularly
of
course
Skye,
famously
full
and
Edinburgh-
that
we
should.
M
A
Very
interesting
I'm
going
to
move
on
to
other
members
of
the
committee.
If
I
could
just
simply
say
we're
quite
pushed
through
time
and
we
have
quite
a
large
full
member
panel.
So
you
don't
don't
feel
that
you
all
have
to
answer
every
question
and
if
you
agree
with
the
other
and
panelists,
please
see
I'll
move
on
to
and.
I
Thank
you
convener,
and
we
just
like
to
have
already
met
with
Fiona
Campbell.
We
met
to
discuss
this
issue
among
another
of
issues
concerning
her
sector
and
what
I'd
like
to
ask
this
mornin
is
obviously
we
heard
the
evidence
a
couple
of
weeks
ago
from
kossler
and
local
authorities
if
the
panel
recognized
the
pressures
that,
when
identified
by
Edinburgh
the
case,
gave
him
by
Aberdeen
and
Highland
Council
and
Stafford
has
already
given
an
explanation
of
how
he
feels
Edinburgh
is
under
pressure.
I
But
do
the
other
panel
members
recognize
issues
around
the
ability
to
do
street
cleaning
the
state
of
the
roads?
The
general
services
need
to
be
need
to
be
delivered
by
the
council.
As
we
see
an
influx
of
bursaries
and
to
that
area
and
stream
that
boots
on
were
already
tightened
book
authority
budgets,
I.
K
Start
I
certainly
I
think
if
you
work
in
tourism,
it's
impossible
not
to
be
aware
of
and
recognize
that
there
are
certain
parts
of
the
country
that
that
come
under
pressure
from
time
to
time.
The
more
popular
areas
I
think
we
have
to
think
a
little
bit
more
of
a
cause
and
effect
and
I
think
you
have
to
begin
to
strip
down
the
the
visitor
market
into
different
components.
K
If,
for
example,
of
this,
at
a
levy
or
a
tourist
taxes,
it
becomes
a
reality,
it
would
be
applied
to
people
of
stay
in
commercial
accommodation.
Yet
these
are
the
staying
visitors
who
contribute
most
to
the
economy
of
the
destination.
They
spend
more.
As
a
matter
of
fact
and
I
think
we
have
to
look
at
other
sectors
of
the
market,
I
mean
it
would
take
Edinburgh,
for
example,
if
I'm
correct
five
million
staying
visitors
a
year,
probably
accounting
for
15
or
16
million
visit
or
nights.
Yet
the
city
attracts
eighteen
and
a
half
million
day.
K
Visitors
and
I
think
you
have
to
look
at
where
the
where
the
pressures
are
coming
from
and
it's
the
staying
visitors
that
are
enabling
the
the
businesses,
in
our
case
accommodation,
businesses,
but
also
the
other
businesses
they're
spending
money
and
that
enables
them
to
pay
the
non-domestic
rates
to
paying.
It
enables
them
to
remit
the
v80.
They
do
to
the
extent
of
the
amount
of
money
that
our
our
visitors
are
already
paying
in
taxes
through
v80.
J
Hybrid
obviously
agrees
wholeheartedly
with
what
well
he
said
there
and
I
think
it
comes
back
to
the
changing
behavior
of
the
two
of
the
tourists
as
well,
particularly
our
again,
our
domestic
market
and
there's
a
significant
increase
in
the
number
of
day
trips,
now,
possibly
driven
by
the
fact
that
people
can't
afford
to
go
and
stay
in
accommodation
anymore.
So
you
are
seeing
a
bigger
volume
coming
into
destinations
at
peak
times
and
I.
J
Suppose,
picking
up
on
on
on
Pete's
comment
about
sky,
one
of
the
things
that
the
Scottish
Tourism
Alliance
are
very
involved
with
in
terms
of
leading
and
shaping
and
I'm
in
the
hot
seat
of
chairing.
The
future
tourism
strategy
group
for
the
strategy
beyond
2020
is
looking
at.
What
are
the
barriers
to
growth
and
a
lot
of
that
barrier
is
is
arguably
about.
We
need
to
get
people
moved
around
the
country
to
different
parts
of
the
country,
spread
the
load
invest
into
infrastructure
to
allow
them
to
do
that.
J
But
you
know
success
breeds
success
and
clearly,
where
you
have
hugely
successful
festivals
and
they
continue
to
grow,
then
understandably,
people
will
want
to
come
and
visit.
But
the
revenue
streams
that
are
now
being
derived
from
festivals
as
well
are
growing
too
so
there
is,
you
know
how
do
you,
how
do
you
compensate
or
penalize
you
know,
individuals
who
perhaps
aren't
coming
to
the
festival,
or
you
know,
visiting
the
city
at
a
different
time
of
year
for
a
completely
different
purpose
and
I'd
use
an
example.
J
I
was
in
a
meeting
up
in
Inverness
and
like
Peter
I
get
around
the
country
a
fair
bit
and
there
are
misperceptions
of
a
number
of
people
around
the
the
impacts
and
the
costs
and
the
contributions
that
that's.
You
know.
Society
pays
particularly
the
the
UK
residents,
who
are
say
or
60
percent
of
our
market,
but
the
quote
was
well:
what's
three
pounds
per
person,
it's
less
than
a
pint
of
beer.
J
Well,
the
family
of
five,
if
it's
based
on
that
three
pounds
per
person
to
stay
in
Inverness
and
a
small
bean
be
nothing
or
even
a
Premier
Inn
or
whatever.
That's
a
hundred
and
five
pounds
extra
on
my
actually
on
my
my
my
bill
now.
First
of
all,
a
would
I
afford
to
be
able
to
do
that.
But
more
importantly,
of
course,
I
want
to
go
to
Inverness
and
I
want
to
spend
that
money
in
the
community
and
in
the
more
businesses
that
are
actually
there
and
take
your
children
to
the
attractions.
J
So
I
think
there
is
this.
Yes,
you
know
going
back
to
the
question
of
pressure
on
destinations.
Absolutely
the
destinations
are
growing
globally.
Tourism
is
growing,
I've
just
come
back
from
a
conference
in
China
the
same
issues
were
there,
the
same
discussions
were
had
the
same
in
Australia,
but
on
every
one
of
the
panels
that
I
sat
on
every
single
person's
view
was
tourism.
Tax
is
not
the
way
to
go.
We
should
be
finding
alternative
solutions
to
fund
and
source.
You
know
a
better
quality
experience,
but
not
tax.
J
I
So
the
issue
of
affordability,
I,
mean
you've,
said:
there's
a
lack
of
evidence
around
how
it
impacts,
and
some
of
the
evidence,
I
think
we
heard
last
weekend.
I
think
in
some
of
the
papers
were
received
is
that
the
difference
might
be
a
percentage
of
1.5%
during
the
margins
of
what
kind
of
impact
it
could
have
and
what
the
panel
considered
in
the
positive
impacts
that
might
give
for
their
businesses.
If
something
like
this
was
to
be
introduced,
do
you
think
there's
anything
positive
in
it?
Could.
M
I
see
further
to
that
that
as
I
understand
it
any
levy
and
can
be,
it
can
be
decided
and
how
it's
how
its
levied
and
who
receives
it.
So
that
children
and
you
know
the
the
the
the
the
data
that
we
see
in
the
documents
clearly
and
cities
set
their
own.
You
know
so
the
children
don't
pay
long
stay
people,
don't
pay
long
spits.
M
They
would
be
disastrous
in
Edinburgh,
because
the
honeypot
of
orcas
would
be
seriously
affected
if
all
those
performers
and
all
those
tech,
people
that
come
to
city
can't
be
put
up
in
hotels
or
accommodation,
so
anything
over
10
days
would
have
to
be
exempt
as
it
were,
and
children
would
be
exempt
and-
and
there
would
be
other
exemptions,
self-catering,
perhaps
I.
You
know,
surely
it's
possible
to
work
a
sort
of
system
whereby
all
these
considerations
are
taken
into
account,
but
there
is
still
a
revenue
and
particularly
in
Annabelle
I
agree.
M
M
Who
gets
them
should
improve
not
just
the
visitor
experience,
but
what
it's
like
to
live
with
an
influx
of
tourists
and-
and
it
was
often
remarked
to
me
as
I-
learned,
that
we
should
no
think
of
sky
as
we
think
of
Venice,
and
we
should
think
of
Edinburgh
as
within
your
Barcelona,
and
these
are
extraordinary
historic
and
and
landscape.
Small
rural
places
in
case'
sky
that
we
have
to
protect.
F
J
Well,
as
I
said
earlier,
and
when
the
statement
was
produced
by
kossler,
we
convened
as
a
member
council,
and
we
made
our
position
felt
that
rather
than
bury
our
head
in
the
ground
and
say
no,
that
we
invited,
for
the
reasons
has
been
outlined
by
Willie
earlier,
the
government
to
now
lead
this
because
I
we,
it
is
not
a
local
issue.
It
is
a
national
issue
to
global
issue.
J
It's
conversation
that
is
being
had
everywhere,
so
we've
we've
been
very
appreciative
of
the
stance
the
government
has
taken
up
to
now
and
I
think
that
stance
is
absolutely
correct,
that
you
know
it's
not
the
time
to
consider
such
a
levy
being
imposed
anywhere,
but
there
has
to
be,
or
without
the
full
consultation
and
the
under
and
the
engagement
of
the
industry
in
this
cut.
In
this
conversation
and
up
until
well.
In
fact,
we
have
had
no
direct
communication
or
consultation
with
Edinburgh
City
Council,
for
example.
J
J
After
we
published
our
own
our
response
and
again
we
had
another
meeting
with
them
back
in
September
and
have
again,
you
know,
requested
that
and
recommended
that
the
government
take
the
lead
and
actually
conduct
a
government-led
consultation
conversation
with
the
informed
those
invited
into
that
conversation
with
information
that
is
transparent
and
clear
for
all
to
see
and
understand,
but
not
just
to
consider
the
track.
You
know
visitor
levy
as
the
or
tvl
as
the
option
is
to
look
to
explore
other
options
as
well
in
that
discussion.
F
As
I
said
how
her
announcement
has
been
perceived
in
the
community
as
softening,
do
you
believe
that
will
be
the
case?
Do
you
think
that
going
out
you
you've
got
your
reports
and
you've
got
used?
Two
sticks,
the
the
council
in
Edinburgh
and
Aberdeen
and
Highlands
came
back
very
strongly
what
their
views.
Where
do
you
think
that,
by
going
out
having
this
consultation,
you're
gonna
win
the
argument
I
would.
J
Like
to
think
that
it's
not
a
softening
I
think
it's,
you
know
we
in
other
issues
that
we've
we've
brought
forward
evidence
to
the
government
and
presented
it
in
a
very
articulate
way
and
a
very
factual
basis.
It's
been
listened
to
and
it's
being
considered
and
I
would
very
much
hope
that
the
I
suppose
the
commitment
to
doing
and
taking
the
lead.
J
As
they
said,
the
government
have
said
they
would
in
this
process,
is
one
that
is
not
a
done
deal
in
any
way,
shape
or
form
and
all
of
the
evidence
and
the
research
will
be
looked
at
in
a
responsible
way
and
protect.
What
is
you
know,
one
of
Scotland's
biggest
economies,
economic
drivers?
You
know
we
employ
220
or
thousand
people.
The
food
and
drink
sector
is
affected.
There's
an
enormous
supply
chain
that
sits
behind
us
as
well,
and
you
know
the
switch
off
or
risk
to
any
business.
J
F
Measured
and
it
needs
to
be
examined
and
I
think
that
what
we're
going
to
have
is
is
definitely
that,
but
it's
imperative
that
we
get
all
sides
of
the
story
in
this
process
and
and
other
countries
in
other
parts
of
the
world
and
other
cities
around
Europe,
etc.
Have
found
this
to
be
quite
successful.
In.
C
Very
much
convene
there
I'm
struck
by
some
of
the
evidence
you've
presented.
For
example,
both
the
es
SC
and
UK
hospitals
have
stated
that
World
Economic
Forum
ranked
the
UK's
already
135
136
in
terms
of
tourism,
place
competitiveness
and
that
the
UK
has
the
second-highest
v8e
in
Europe
20%
and
the
you
kids
won
a
few
EU
countries.
C
It
doesn't
have
a
reduced
rate
of
V
84
to
tourism
services,
I
think
it's
an
ion
role
of
economics
and,
of
course,
might
get
his
economics
that
when
prices
go
up
it
seals
go
down
and
the
father
talk
about
em
researchers
at
Northern,
University
talking
with
impact
on
versus
from
the
UK
Italy
in
Spain,
about
a
G
adoption
of
1%
increase,
1%
attacks
having
a
reduction
of
2.2,
1.75
or
1.8
percent
respectively.
The
my
question
t
as
that
council
McVie
has
said
that
some
elements
of
your
sector
are
in
fact
in
favor
of
this
tax.
C
It
quoted
it
been
B
and
he
said,
and
I
quote
and
I
just
want
you
to
comment
on
this.
Although
some
industry
bodies
are
keen
to
play
up
a
consensus,
it
doesn't
exist.
There
is
not
a
consensus
in
industry
that
industry
voice
is
a
split,
maybe
one
in
four
fifty
fifty
to
two
thirds
that
are
thought
understand,
impact
delivery
could
make
and
support
in
the
sector
and
industry
voices
understand
the
long-term
concern.
The
levee
is
needed
if
they
sustain
a
level
success.
C
M
On
that
point,
I
think
we
should
all
remember,
I'm
sure,
you're
aware
that
nowadays
we
can't
walk
into.
We
can't
phone
up
a
hotel
and
say
how
much
has
a
room
and
me
because
every
night
it's
a
different
place.
It's
all
dynamic
pricing
and
it's
a
you
know
it's
some
of
the
prices
that
you
pay
for
rooms
in
hotels
and
and
balloons
guy,
particularly
but
elsewhere
in
north,
of
course,
500
and
obviously
successful.
M
There's
various
you
know
a
small
amount
of
accommodation
available
and
prices
are
exceedingly
high,
so
high
that
I
should
expect
that
scottish
people
can't
sort
of
station
easily
in
sky
at
all
I
know
lots
of
people
that
don't
go
at
Sky
and
one
because
it
can't
afford
it
and
they
don't
want
to
take
a
campervan
or
they
haven't
got
one
because
that
makes
as
its
own
negative
impact.
So
III
I
think
that
the
idea
of
two
pounds,
a
head
with
lots
of
exceptions
with
the
revenue
well-spent,
would
not
I.
You
know.
M
I
I
don't
really
buy
this,
but
this
idea
that,
if
you,
if
you
put
places
up
by
one
percent
and
something
else
get
you
know,
the
income
goes
down
by
two
percent
or
whatever,
because
you
just
need
to
see
how
many
new
hotels
that
have
been
in
Edinburgh
and
they're
like
this
seems
to
be
like
one
a
month.
These
are
big
players.
Their
international
players,
in
the
main,
these
rooms
are
two
three
hundred
four
hundred
pounds
a
night.
This
is
no
III
looked
yesterday.
What
hotels
are
costing
in
October,
even
in
sky?
M
This
guy
used
to
the
argument
was
always
sky.
For
example,
it's
seasonal,
so
you
know,
but
the
season
is
now
extended.
Where
is
in
large
parts
of
Scotland,
including
I,
think
Glasgow
there
isn't
that
demand
there?
Isn't
there
aren't
really
expensive
rooms?
Dynamic
pricing
is
a
much
more
moderated
kind
of
affair,
but
once
again
I
would
just
say
I.
M
Think
Edinburgh
is
a
real
exception
and
I
I
can't
see
that
effect
and
actually,
if
it
was
gonna,
put
people
off,
then
people
might
go
outside
of
Edinburgh
and
stay,
which
would
have
a
positive
effect
on
its
hinterland
and
Perthshire,
for
example,
but
the
the
the
the
the
I
think
all
indications
are
that
tourism.
This
is
not
attack.
M
That's
going
to
go
off
or
get
turned
down,
it's
going
to
increase,
Edinburgh
will
increase
and
I
would
just
say
well
half
of
the
council,
oh
god,
I
fought
with
the
current
so
long
enough
over
the
years,
but
you
know
anybody's
building
an
Arts,
Centre
I
saw
a
new
concert
hall
and
it's
building
the
center
of
the
moving
image.
The
film
festival
new
venue,
which
is
still
years
off,
but
there
should
be
one
and
there
will
be
one,
an
open-air
world-class
amphitheater
in
Princess
regardons,
Leith
theater,
which
would
transform
Leith
in
many
ways
culturally.
M
Certainly
these
things
are
paid
for
by
the
council
and
by
by
tax
payers
who
live
here,
and
these
are
this
would
be,
they
would
increase
the
tourist
and
cultural
offering
of
Edinburgh
because
we're
a
cultural
city.
That's
why
people
come
in
the
main
because
of
the
atmosphere
in
this
history,
and
they
said
so.
A
L
Funeral
I
can't
speak
on
behalf
of
Airbnb,
but
I,
don't
believe,
they've
actually
issued
any
kind
of
statement
supporting
a
TVL
or
tourist
tax.
What
I
do
understand
is
that
they
can
support
it
technologically
they
do
in
any
number
of
other
destinations,
so
it's
fairly
simple
for
them
administratively
to
flick
the
switch
and
allow
a
TVL
to
be
added
to
their
their
income
and
their
administration.
A
K
I
just
add
an
issue
really
in
relation
to
to
Pete's
comments
on
hotel
rates.
I
think
it's
important
over
the
piece
to
look
at
the
the
hotel
industry.
Yes,
I
agree
entirely
about
dynamic
pricing,
but
the
hotel
industry,
one
of
the
most
important
metrics,
looking
at
performances,
the
average
daily
rate
achieved
and
in
Scotland
over
the
piece.
The
average
daily
rate
achieved
in
all
hotels
in
Scotland
is
somewhere
in
the
region
of
70
75
78
pounds
per
day.
And,
yes,
we
see
extremes
of
pricing.
We
see
high
rates
at
peak
times.
K
We
see
lower
rates
at
off-peak
times,
that
is
simple
economics,
its
supply
and
demand.
And
it's
exactly
the
same.
If
you
go
to
buy
a
holiday,
you
always
go
to
buy
an
airline
ticket
supply
and
demand
rules
and
I.
Think
we've
got
a
look
at
things
like
the
the
overall
tax
burden
borne
by
our
visitors.
Yes,
we
we
have
made
the
case.
We've
consistently
made
the
case
and,
in
fact,
to
respond
a
little
bit
to
mr.
Stewart's
question.
This
isn't
the
first
Scottish
government
we've
made
the
case
to
about
a
tourist
Hanks.
K
This
this
issue
goes
way
back
to
about
2007
2008
and
when
I
first
came
into
the
job,
I
mean
now
in
2011
it
was
the
first
meeting
I
went
to
with
the
city
of
Edinburgh
and
then
was
to
discuss
tourist
tax.
We
have
consistently
been
making
the
point
that
we
believe
this
is
an
uncompetitive
approach,
given
our
rate
of
v80
compared
to
the
rate
of
v80
in
our
competitors
and
I.
K
Think
the
paper
from
Khosla
in
your
bundle
eloquently
makes
the
case
that
the
the
cities
and
countries
where
they've
looked
at
tourist
taxes
being
in
place
are
those
with
a
much
reduced
rate
of
v80
on
ours.
People
are
building
hotels
and
Edinburgh.
People
are
building
hotels
and
historic
buildings,
they're
bringing
life
back
into
the
city
center
hotels
built
in
allocation
like
this
are
not
cheap
to
build.
Investors
have
to
get
a
return
on
them
and
they're
not
cheap
to
run
one
of
the
the
single
highest
overheads.
K
We
have
is
non-domestic
rates
which
run
at
5
6,
7
%
of
turnover,
and
to
suggest
that
it
is
only
local
taxpayers
who
are
paying
for
some
of
the
infrastructure
is
wrong.
I
mean
what
what
is
happening
to
the
money
that
is
coming
into
the
the
bundle
of
money
collected
by
non-domestic
rate
payers,
and
where
is
that
going?
Where
are
these
businesses
getting
the
return
for
their
investment?
I
mean
if
we
had
any
other
successful
industry
in
Scotland,
we
have
a
very
successful
tourism
industry.
G
G
L
Think
I
think
that
it
certainly
should
be
discussed
in
local
areas
as
well
as
on
a
national
level,
but
it
has
to
be
absolutely
made
clear
that
those
local
authorities
ensure
this
is
an
economic
impact
assessment,
robust
independent
data-driven.
Otherwise
it
could
go
horribly
wrong
and
city
of
Edinburgh
Council,
despite
their
suggestions
that
they
are
consulting
with
industry,
I,
don't
believe
they
have
done
on
on
a
on
a
required
level.
I
invited
myself
to
a
meeting
that
I
wasn't
invited
to,
and
it
wasn't
a
consultation.
L
It
was
them
presenting
what
a
fete
accompli,
what
they
intend
to
do,
and
then
there
was
another
meeting
to
discuss
the
administration
of
a
tourist
tax
and
again
they
had
basically
made
up
their
mind.
So
I
feel
like.
Unless
is
a
really
robust
consultation
on
a
national
level,
then
we
might
make
horrible
decisions
on
a
local
level.
G
L
K
To
be
very
careful
that
we
don't
end
up
with
32
different
solutions
to
a
problem
that
would
be
an
administrative
nightmare
for
businesses
that
operate
in
different
parts
of
Scotland.
Fiona's
already
alluded
to
the
cost.
That
would
be
borne
by
businesses
in
setting
up
systems,
training
staff,
remitting
an
additional
tax
to
a
different
source,
and
then,
of
course,
is
the
cost
of
auditing.
All
of
this.
So
introducing
something
like
this
is
not
going
to
be
without
a
dire
cash
cost
on
businesses,
as
well
as
potentially
an
economic
cost
to
the
country.
J
I
would
say
you
know
it
comes
back
to
the
sort
of
the
three
pound
figure
that
was
quoted
by
a
councillor
in
Inverness.
You
know
the
understanding
of
probably
what
the
reality
is
and
the
facts
and
the
basic
ground
rules
and
and
the
information
that's
out
there
at
local
level.
I,
don't
think
it's
it
is
that
understood.
I
mean
the
the
survey
that
was
conducted
over
the
summer
period
suggests
that
they've,
you
know
surveyed
visitors.
Well,
those
people
were
in
Edinburgh
when
they
were
coming
to
the
festival.
J
Of
course,
they're
probably
going
to
say
yes,
they
would
come
here.
They
came
to
a
great
experience,
it's
about.
How
do
we
look
at
the
wider
picture
and
it
is
a
national
issue.
It's
not
just
Edinburgh
wanting
to
consider
this,
and
once
it
starts
in
one
authority
you
know
other
authorities
will
be
looking
to
do
similar
or
explore
similar
things.
So,
hence
the
reason
why
we
have
as
a
Member,
Council
or
our
member
council
has
very
much
asked
and
recommended
that
it
becomes
a
national
conversation.
J
In
the
first
instance,
it's
led
by
government
and
it
actually
is
a
level
playing
field
and
it's
inclusive.
It's
not
saying
the
local
authorities
have
pushed
to
one
side,
but
everybody
needs
to
be
around
the
table
together
and
understanding
and
reading
and
interpreting
the
same
information.
That's
produced
to
inform
the
outcomes
and.
G
To
go
back
to
I
think
it
was
well
we've
made
the
the
point
aware
of
tourists
do
contribute
to
local
government
funding
by
contributing
towards
a
business
that,
in
turn
pays
non-domestic
rates.
Do
you
believe
the
the
that
indirect
contribution
goes
through
a
couple
steps
makes
it
back
to
the
council:
does
that
cover
the
the
cost
dual
core
services?
Think
none
of
us
disagree
the
massive
benefit
that
tourism
has
to
local
economies.
What
we're
talking
about
is
the
impact
that
has
on
local
services
and
the
service
provider.
G
K
Well,
customers
are
contributing
to
the
viability
of
the
business.
The
business
pays
rates
for
a
set
amount
of
service
that
come
back.
The
business
also
pays
to
have
its
refuse
taken
away,
so
the
direct
contribution
from
the
customer
enables
the
business
to
pay
an
independent
contractor
to
come
and
take
away
business
refuse.
G
Is
the
the
whole
terrorists
expediency?
Well,
the
tourists
uses
something
and
produces
waste
producers
that
are
in
the
business.
That's
true,
but
when
they're
out
on
the
street
in
Edinburgh
they're
using
a
public
been
like
everyone
else,
but
there's
increased
demand
on
that
and
assertive
any
recurrence.
I've
already
talked
about
the
considerable
increased
cost
to
them,
literally
just
on
refuse
collection
during
the
festival
period.
No,
but.
K
But
but
that
comes
back
to
stripping
away
the
layers
of
the
different
elements
of
the
tourism
market,
you
have
staying
visitors,
you
have
Dave
Davis
as
your
people
staying
with
friends
and
relatives.
Yes,
indeed,
everybody
makes
a
demand
on
local
services,
but
introducing
a
TV.
A
lot
of
tourist
tax
is
putting
a
discriminatory
tax
on
anyone
who
uses
commercial
accommodation
so
where,
where
is
the
rest
of
the
contribution
coming
from
from
those
who
are
not
enabling
businesses
to
meet
their
contribution
of
cost
and
and
contribution
to
local
services?
G
And
I
think
a
bit
one
specific
follow-up
point
around
Airbnb
have
already
been
mentioned
that
this
quite
substantial,
unregulated
part
of
the
market,
that
o
of
like
yourselves,
are
made
robust
arguments
about
in
the
past
is
a
model
around
a
tourism
tax
of
transit.
Mr.
levad
not
an
opportunity
to
ensure
that
those
using
Airbnb
and
the
hosts
are
actually
making
a
financial
contribution
that
at
the
moment,
is
not
being
made
because
they're
in
the
unregulated
part
of
the
market
only.
K
We've
looked
at
auctions,
I
mean
we're,
jumping
we're
assuming
there's
a
problem
here.
That
needs
to
be
addressed
to
my
mind
that
yet
to
be
proven,
but
we,
if
we
have
the
principle
of
yes,
we've
got
to
resolve
this
issue
and
we
need
to
raise
more
money
to
do
it
or
we
need
to
redirect
existing
money
to
do
it.
There's
been
no
examination
of
options,
I
mean
is
I
mean
I
could
come
up
with
several
different
options,
but
I
mean
looking
at
hypothecation
of
business
rates.
K
From
the
beginning
of
the
next
financial
year,
Scottish
government
gets
50%
to
the
v8e
raised
in
Scotland.
Well,
the
accommodation
sector
in
Scotland,
according
to
figures,
I've
got
in
front
of
me,
contributes
460
five
million
pounds
a
year
in
VA,
t-shir
li,
some
of
that
and
that's
the
accommodation
sector
alone.
It's
not
the
tourism
sector
entirely.
Surely
some
of
that
money
can
find
its
way
back
into
supporting
local
services.
I
think
we're
going
to
look
freshly
at
how
we
do
this.
K
There's
a
conversation
going
on
over
on
this
site
about
the
potential
reduction
or
abolition
of
air
passenger
duty.
Are,
we
you
know,
are
we
talking
about
abolishing
potentially
abolishing
one
tourist
tax,
which
raises
in
excess
of
200
million
a
year
for
the
Scottish
Government
and
replacing
it
with
another
tax
which
is
going
to
need
a
whole
new
administrative
Interest
infrastructure
to
introduce
and
collect
when
I
think?
K
This
is
why
we
want
the
the
national
conversation
why
we
want
some
research,
why
we
want
examination
of
options
and
yes,
we
may
not
win
this
at
the
end
of
the
day,
but
in
response
again
to
mr.
Stewart
I,
don't
think,
we've
seen
a
softening
off
government
stance,
maybe
I'm
naive,
maybe
too
old
to
be
naive,
I,
don't
know,
but
I
I
believe
what
I'm
told
and
I
think
we've
got
the
opportunity
here
to
have
an
open
debate
about
something
that
is
becoming
increasingly
intractable
and
it's
been
conducted
through
the
pages
of
the
other
evening.
K
D
Picking
up
a
couple
of
points
discussed
thus
far,
and
so
you
know,
I
was
struck
with
the
example
that
Mark
gave
about
family
and
Inverness
and
all
it
would
cost
and
then
I
was
struck
by
what
Peter
said,
which
was
well
actually
hang
on
a
second,
because
in
many
cities
and
countries
that
have
a
tourists
tax,
there
are
exemptions
for
children
at
different
age
thresholds.
I
actually
just
had
a
look
online,
so
Spain
seems
to
be
16.
France
seems
to
be
18.
D
Austria
seems
to
be
15
just
to
number
three,
for
example,
so
I
think
it
is
important
and
picking
up
what
well.
He
said
that
we
really
get
down
to
a
factual
debate
here
that
we
talk
about.
The
wait
is
as
it
is
because
we
would
have
if
there's
where
to
come,
to
pass,
presumably
like
these
other
countries
have
done
an
option
to
configure
our
tourist
tax
in
a
way
that
is
deemed
by
all
concerned,
to
prop
it.
But
getting
back
to
the
fundamentals,
I
mean
I,
think
and
I
had
said
it.
D
In
the
last
evidence
session
we
had
in
this
subject
about
three
weeks
ago.
You
know
I,
think
a
lot
of
assumptions
are
being
made
about
consumer
behavior
here,
and
that
is
why
I
would
like
to
see
more
detailed
analysis,
up-to-date
analysis
looking
actually
at
the
experience
of
some
of
these
other
cities
and
countries
which
have
introduced
attacks.
D
Presumably
the
introduction
of
such
attacks
and
some
of
these
places
was
controversial
at
the
time
and
they've
had
a
lead-in
time
to
examine
what
impact,
if
any
this
has
had
on
on
numbers,
because
that
I
understand
is
your
concern
and
should
be
the
concern
of
everybody
that
wants
to
see
a
thriving
tourism
sector
in
Scotland.
So
that
would
be
my
ask
now.
D
For
example,
we
had
a
a
lighter
from
a
degree
at
the
city
council
to
the
committee
of
two
tober
2018
and
where
he
says
that
you
know
once
when
you
look
at
the
issue
of
that
and
fair
enough.
So,
sadly,
we
are
subject
to
one
of
the
high
spot
rates
in
the
whole
of
the
EU
thanks
to
the
UK
government.
But
you
look
at
the
fact
that
they
have
a
reduced
rate
of
that.
He
goes
on
to
say
that
once
you
combine
the
TV
out
in
that
city
and
the
VAT,
then
Edinburgh
would
remain
competitive.
D
So
again,
I
think
it
is
really
important
that
we
have
a
factual
analysis
here
to
show
what
is
actually
happening
in
other
places
that
have
this
I
mean
this
is
now
the
norm
for
individual
tourists
from
Scotland
going
elsewhere,
going
in
Scotland
and
further
afield,
and
for
other
Europeans
in
particular,
coming
to
Scotland
or
traveling
elsewhere
in
Europe
in
particular.
This
is
the
norm
now
you
know
times
have
moved
on.
D
This
is
what
many
countries
have
done
so
I
think
it'd
be
really
important
to
have
the
debate
rooted
in
facts,
and
you
know
in
2018,
taking
into
account
this
international
experience
and
I'd
welcome.
Just
a
few
initial
thoughts
are
not,
and
what
are
your
plans
and
I
ask
the
same
of
anybody.
What
are
your
plans
to
ensure
that
that
research
is?
Is
there
and
available
to
inform
this
debate?
I.
J
Think
what
we
also
have
to
be
very,
very
wary
of
and
again
the
the
indicators
that
are
coming
through
from
the
industry
at
the
moment
around
consumer
behavior
is
our
core
market.
60%
of
our
core
market
are
changing
their
spending
patterns
considerably
because
they
are
actually
having
to
manage
cost
and
they're
moving
much
more
into
the
camping
into
the
campervan
market.
They
are
bringing
their
own
food
and
drink
into
hotels.
They
are
actually
cutting
their
holiday
time
short,
so
there
is
a
squeeze,
and
there
is
it's
only
going
to
get
tighter
we're
all.
J
You
know
we,
whatever
the
news,
everybody,
we
all
watch
it
we're
all
feeling
it
that
everybody's
budgets
are
being
stretched
a
bit
further.
So,
yes,
is
it's.
We
are
used
to
paying
levies
going
further
afield,
but
in
a
very
different
tax
regime
as
well.
So
we
mustn't,
compare
apples
and
pears
and
I
think
they
have
to
be
kept.
Quite
careful
with
that.
J
But
I
do
think
that
you
know
the
the
longer-term
view
of
how
much
of
where's
that
where's
the
tipping
point
for
for
a
family
to
choose,
to
go
and
spend
and
stay,
and
you
know
the
spike
in
that
de
visite
experience,
and
that
comes
back
to
the
the
pressures
on
the
on
some
of
these
destinations,
where
you
do
get
a
volume
of
people
coming
in
an
increased
volume
of
people
coming
in
where
they
wouldn't
maybe
not
normally
be
there.
It's
because
they're
actually
not
holidaying
elsewhere
or
spending
a
longest
time.
J
So
there
are
a
number
of
facts
that
have
to
be
explored
and
seriously
considered
without
jumping
straight
in
and
as
I
say,
you
know.
Go
back
to
the
the
the
interviews
of
the
600
people
in
the
summer.
I,
don't
think,
are
a
true
reflection
of
the
of
the
wide
of
considerations
that
we
need
to
take
into
account
before
reaching
a
decision
of
this
magnitude
and
Scotland
can't
afford
to
be
in
a
position
where
it
seemed
to
be
uncompetitive.
J
K
If
I'm
not
quite
sure
what
arithmetic
mr.
MacMurray
uses
in
his
letter
to
to
suggest
that
the
combination
of
tourist
tax
and
v80
and
other
countries
would
exceed
outcome,
20%,
v80
I
think
you've
got
to
be
very
careful
and
applying
that
arithmetic
and
a
very
quick
perusal
the
the
analysis
of
tourist
taxes
and
comparative
v80
rates,
which
is
something
I've
done
myself.
K
Kozlov
probably
has
a
more
up-to-date
version
in
in
the
paper
in
front
of
you,
but
I
couldn't
readily
see
last
night.
Looking
at
these
figures
have
a
combination
of
tourist
tax
or
TVL.
In
some
of
the
comparator
countries,
there
plus
they're
much
reduced
rate
of
v80,
actually
began
to
exceed
our
20%
rate
of
v80,
and
certainly
if
you
use
the
native
United
States
as
an
example
where
in
fact
they
have
to
they're
not
obliged
like
we
are
to
show
their
hotel
rates,
inclusive
of
v80
and
all
other
charges.
K
The
blunt
comparison
is
we're
not
competitive
in
v80
terms
and
most
other
countries
that
have
a
tourist
tanks
have
a
reduced
rate
of
v80.
We
need
to
take
a
much
more
holistic
view
of
how
we're
taxing
of
the
citizen
and
our
tourism
businesses
I.
Don't
have
all
the
figures,
it's
very
difficult
to
get
them,
but
in
many
European
countries
the
property
tax
are
the
equivalent
of
our
non-domestic
rates
on
hospitality.
Businesses
is
much
lower
than
the
non-domestic
rates
our
sector
is
paying
here.
Well,.
D
I
do
feel,
though,
that
the
the
and
I
hope
that
this
industry
consultation
gives
the
opportunity
for
these
issues
to
be
indeed
fleshed
out
in
hard
facts,
because
that
would
allow
all
of
us
to
have
the
best
debate
possible
on
this
very,
very
important
issue.
So
I
hope
that
that's
a
point
that
is
reflected
on
by
your
organization's,
because
that
would
be
a
really
helpful
contribution
to
the
debate
to
ensure
that
we
we
can
take
decisions
based
on
the
best
evidence
available.
Thanks.
E
Thank
you,
Thank
You
Meera,
just
for
the
for
the
record,
I
also
met
with
Fiona
Campbell
sooner
someone
achieve
the
cross-party
group
on
tourism
and
also
recreational
boating
marine
tourism,
so
I
do
directly
meet
with
mark,
aren't
really
as
well
just
on
the
issue
of
the
taxation
and
issue
of
a
VA
team
and
has
any
of
the
panel
undertaken
any
activity.
Just
regarding
that
the
waiter
basket
of
taxation,
including
corporation
tax,
to
actually
help
and
for
mr.
beet.
K
As
I
alluded
to
earlier,
honest
I've
got
in
the
paper
I've
submitted.
We
looked
at
the
we
took
a
top-line
look
at
the
contribution
through
various
taxes
made
by
the
accommodation
industry
in
Scotland
and
I.
Think
we're
showing
a
figure
if
I
remember
correctly.
719
million
is
the
contribution.
I
appreciate
some
of
that
finds
its
way
to
Westminster,
but
one
can
only
assume
that
some
of
that
finds
its
way
back
in
terms
of
a
block
grant.
K
So
the
the
figure
is
there
in
terms
of
the
the
tax
state
coming
from
published
sources
that
excludes
things
like
contributions
by
tourism,
business
to
Business,
Improvement
Districts,
and
it
probably
includes
excludes
a
very
significant
contribution,
indirectly
by
our
customers
through
excise
duty
on
road
fuel
that
they
use
when
they're
here
and
on
alcoholic
drinks
they
buy
from
our
businesses.
That
tax
is
collected
indirectly.
E
J
What
I
would
say
is
that
the
car
tourism,
that
campaign
is
actually
being
led
by
down
south
being
led
by
UK
by
utility
and
the
STAAR
are
absolute
supporters
of
that.
So
we're
aware
that
conversations
have
been
ongoing
across
the
developed
states
for
the
cabinet-
secretaries
respective
cabinet
secretaries.
There
was
obviously
the
Northern
Ireland
issue
at
the
moment
where
there
is
a
challenge
and
around
tourism
that
which
is
being
considered
and
that
potentially
then
could
open
up
pending
the
outcome
of
what
that
decision
is
a
challenge
for
that
to
be
reduced
into
Scotland
as
well.
J
But
at
the
moment
the
there's
been
a
varied
mixture
of
support
within
Westminster
I.
Think
at
one
point
we
had
about
135
MPs
in
favour
of
certainly
a
lowering
of
v80,
but
it
said
with
all
the
changes
that
are
happening
and
continue
to
happen,
and
that
argument
probably
isn't
as
robust
as
it
could
be.
But
I
think
you
know.
As
we've
said
before,
you
know
the
v80
reduction
for
our
secretaries
is
arguably
the
game-changer
for
us.
J
We've
seen
evidence
in
Northern
Ireland,
where
you
know
the
government
took
the
decision
to
reduce
the
VAT
state
down
from
13%
to
9%.
They
removed
their
passenger
duty
and
this
sorry
I'm
sorry
Republic
Republic
of
Ireland.
Thank
you
ready
for
correction
me
and
actually
the
growth
that
the
revenues
receipts
of
driven
through
tourism,
growth
and
employment
has
been
significant,
so
I
think
there's
a
good
case
study
there
to
follow,
and
you
know
that
then
a
lowering
of
that.
J
Then
there
becomes
a
very
different
conversation
around
a
tourism
levy
and
one
one
would
say
that
that's
where
we
would
like
to
get
to.
We
would
rather
have
more
people
focusing
on
getting
a
VAT
reduction
and
considering
that
as
the
primary
opportunity,
rather
than
actually
looking
into
a
window
of
a
tourist
tax
on
top
of
what
is
already
high,
the
second
highest
level
of
that
in
Europe.
K
E
That
was
very
helpful
and
just
that
one
final
question
also
I'm
conscious
of
time.
If,
at
the
end
of
this
consultation,
this
national
conversation
was
taking
place.
If
the
session
was
taken
to
implement
any
type
of
TVL
with
the
panelists
wanted
to
be
done
on
a
national
perspective
or
for
it
to
be
done
from
a
local
regional
perspective
across
the
thirty-two
and
as
an
F.
K
Based
on
the
comment
I
made
earlier
about
not
wanting
to
have
32
different
systems
in
place,
I
think
our
preference
would
be
for
it
to
be
national,
and
if
there
were
clear
rules
and
the
if
such
attacks
were
present
and
I
appreciate
it's
a
hypothetical
question
so
give
you
a
hypothetical
answer.
I
I
think
we'd
prefer
to
see
it
at
national
level
with
clear
rules
about
how
it
would
be
administered,
so
it
was
common
throughout
the
country.
M
I
think
that
would
certainly
very
much
diminish
the
Edinburgh
few
if
it
was
her
in
the
country
personally,
I
don't
think
it'd
be
at
all
welcome
environment,
most
of
the
country
I
just
reiterate
again
the
universe.
A
very
very
particular
exceptional
situation
and
tourism
is
increasingly
experiential.
M
It
should
be
obviously
a
much
wider
discussion
and
it's
very
difficult
for
people
to
know
what
it's
really
like
being
a
tourist
or
Olivia,
or
what
it's
going
to
be
like
in
the
future,
but
the
future
the
future
does
look
pretty
good,
for
particularly
for
Edinburgh
and
Enver
is
the
gateway
to
Scotland
and,
and
you
know,
increasing
flights.
Increasing
cultural
experiences
that
I
talked
about
a
moment
ago
and
more
I
think
more
people
will
come.
Gender
hotels
will
be
more
full.
M
This
season
will
be
longer,
and
this
should
really
be
considered
as
to
how
it
I
mean
it's
very
much
part
of
the
v80
picture.
I
always
think
of
any,
but
a
bit
like
Dublin
Dublin
is
always
expensive
to
stay
in
the
hotel
and-
and
perhaps
you
don't
have
enough
a
tells,
but
people
go
to
Dublin
for
the
experience
too
and
and
I
can't
remember
what
the
v80
vision
there
is
either,
but
everybody
has
to
consider
itself
in
an
international
context.
M
I
think
it's
what
I'm
saying
like
Barcelona
Lebanon
slake
rule
wherever
there
are
increasing
numbers
of
tourists
coming
in
and
in
the
city
centers
in
all
terms
of
city
centres,
and
in
all
these
cases
and
I,
you
know
it
would.
If,
if
there's
a
way,
that's
worked
out
fairly
so
that
the
money
that's
gathered,
the
revenues
are
apportioned
to
benefit
the
experience
of
tourists
and
locals
in
this
city.
I
mean
I,
do
know
about
Aberdeen
to
be
honest
or
even
Glasgow,
but
in
this
city
I
think
it
should
be
probably
consulted
with
everyone.
Thank.
H
You
for
sure
mr.
van
that's
been
mentioned
in
the
chef,
sometimes
as
well.
It's
not
just
the
evening
news
and
they're,
not
in
favor
of
it
and
I,
think
I.
Think
no
and
you've
made
the
points.
I
think
I
actually
take
away
McLeod's
point,
but
I
actually
think
if
it
was
imposed
on
a
local
level.
Quite
a
lot
of
various
colleges
wouldn't
impose
it
so
I.
Take
your
eye
and
kind
of
I
mean
I
missed
servants
metre
made
an
earlier
remark
about
what
the
money
would
actually
be
spent
on.
H
I
think
that's
quite
important
is
the
concern
of
the
three
of
us
three
panelists
here
today
who
are
not
in
favor
or
not
persuaded.
Shall
we
be
more
gentle?
My
language,
not
persuaded
of
the
merits
of
a
of
our
tourist
tax
is
your
concern
that
the
money
that
was
raised
but
I
would
just
disappear
into
the
general
law
up
and
pop.
We
spent
on
schools
and
everything
else,
and
it
actually
wouldn't
be
spent
on
the
services
that
are
directly
attributable
to
the
tourism
product,
whether
they're
being
at
Edinboro
anywhere
else.
H
That
criteria,
if
if
there
was
a
policy
of
a
tourist
tax,
you
have
to
remember
there's
a
budget
coming
up
in
this
place
in
the
12th
of
December.
So
they're,
not
my
the.
If
it
is
imposed,
is,
would
it
not
be
better
to
have
criteria
set
which
said
that
month
that
monies
raised?
If
there
is
such
a
levy
in
such
an
area
such
as
Edinburgh
needs
to
be
spent
on
the
tourism
product
in
Edinburgh,
I?
Think.
J
In
yes,
you
know
I
think
absolutely
categorically.
There
would
need
to
be
some
very,
very
strong
sort
of
guidelines
that
that
money
is
protected
to
and
only
used
for,
tourism
enhancement.
You
know
and
actually
making
sure
that
the
quality
of
the
tourism
experiences
is
extended
and
it's
used
to
promote
I
think
well.
He
referred
to
earlier
around
the
contributions
the
industry
already
make
in
other
ways
to
beds
as
well.
J
You
can't
underestimate
the
amount
of
money
that
businesses
actually
make
in
marketing,
Scotland,
whether
it
be
their
own
destination
or
their
own
premises
and
actually
also
considerably
contribute
to
some
of
the
local
marketing
activity
at
destination
and
level
as
well.
So
you
know
clearly
we
want
to
make
things
every
every
business
would
want
to
make
themselves
the
best
they
can
be.
So
when
you
read
a
headline
as
it
was
again
a
few
weeks
ago
the
teachers
union
met
and
Dundee
and
I
think
the
headline
was
great.
J
G
A
Okay,
I'd
just
like
to
finish
up
them
going
back
to
our
panel
previously,
and
we
talked
about
how
you
know
the
impact
and
infrastructure
wasn't
just
caused
by
overnight
visitors
caused
by
devious
as
well
and
we've
touched
or
not.
Here
too,
and
last
time
we
talked
about
dem
ocean
liner
passengers
coming
into
ports
like
air
and
proclaimed
that
mr.
McMillan
represents,
and
we
had
quite
a
long
discussion
about
the
campervan
issue
in
the
highlands
and
the
amount
of
you
know,
pressure
that
puts
on
the
Lord's
toilets
that
kind
of
thing.
A
J
Say
no
on
that,
but
I
would
just
like
to
draw
again
the
attention
I
think
which
is
really
important
in
the
future
research
as
well,
or
the
research
that
gets
done.
We
had
one
of
our
presentations
at
the
conference
on
on
Monday
from
Euromonitor,
and
it's
looking
at
the
future
trends
and
travel
trends
of
tourism.
It
is
experiential
now
of
go
increasing
Lemoore
so
as
as
Pete
alluded
to,
hence
the
Airbnb
culture
that's
been
adopted.