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A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
27th
meeting
of
the
committee
and
2018
I'd
like
to
remind
members
and
the
public
to
turn
off
their
mobile
phones
and
any
member
using
electronic
devices
to
access
committee
papers
during
the
meeting
should
please
ensure
that
these
are
turned
to
silent.
Our
first
item
of
business
today
is
an
evidence
session
in
relation
to
the
committee's
inquiry
on
emigration
with
the
migration
Advisory
Committee
Chair,
Professor,
Alan,
Manning
and
evidence
today
will
be
taken
via
videoconference.
A
A
Salary
for
migrants
would
severely
restrict
the
number
of
people
who
are
able
to
come
to
the
UK
and
Scotland
in
particular,
and
can
I
just
in
terms
of
the
30,000
pounds,
salary
and
all
that
you
are
proposing
to
include
142
new
medium
skilled
jobs
within
that
umbrella
of
the
tier
2
visa.
What
percentage
of
these
medium
skilled
jobs
in
Scotland
would
meet
the
30,000
pound
salary
threshold.
B
B
Think
the
if
we
sort
of
take
the
first
point,
a
proposal
that
we
should
you
should
look
very
carefully
at
whether
there
needs
to
be
a
lower
skilled
migration
route.
I
think
it's
a
little
bit
misleading
to
think
that
that
would
mean
that
75%
of
the
existing
migrants
would
not
be
eligible
to
be
here,
because
the
existing
stock
would
remain
so.
B
This
would
be
really
should
be
seen
as
a
proposal
which
would
be
restricting
the
future
flow
rather
than
influencing
the
current
stock,
and
even
in
the
absence
of
an
explicit,
lower
skilled
work
route,
there
actually
always
are
quite
substantial
flows
of
lower
skilled
migrants
through
other
routes
such
as
family.
So
if
we
look
at
the
non
EU
EU
route
at
the
moment,
there
isn't
a
an
explicit,
lower
skilled
migration
route
for
most
of
them,
and
yet
we
do
see
quite
a
lot
of
non
EU
migrants
in
lower
skilled
work.
B
B
Our
view
for
why
that
was
appropriate
was
that,
first
of
all,
that
is
very
close
to
median
earnings,
both
in
the
UK
as
a
whole
and
in
Scotland,
and
any
migrants
that
is
coming
in
below
median
full-time
earnings
is
in
a
little
bit
making
the
UK
or
Scotland
a
lower
wage
kind
of
economy,
and
that
isn't
really
our
vision
for
the
future.
You
are
correct
to
say
that
the
medium
skill
occupations
that
we
do
propose
extending
the
current
tier
will
find
it
harder
to
meet
that
we
thresholds
so,
for
example,
even
Scotland.
B
If
one
takes
what
other
sort
of
level
four
or
five,
so
these
will
be
the
upper
medium
skilled
jobs,
something
like
fifty
two
percent
of
jobs
in
those
occupations
in
Scotland
at
the
moment
to
pay
more
than
thirty
thousand
for
the
lower
skill
medium
skilled
jobs
is
thirty
six
percent.
Those
are
very
close
to
the
national
averages.
B
Now
we
do
think
that
that,
although
that
is
a
bit
more
of
a
stretch
for
jobs
in
those
sectors,
that
is
appropriate,
because
the
reason
for
wanting
to
allow
migrants
into
those
jobs
is
to
alleviate
potential
problems
with
skill
shortages.
But
if
there
are
skill
shortages,
we
do
think
it's
appropriate
that
there
is
upward
pressure
on
wages
within
those
sectors,
and
we
see
these
salary
thresholds
as
helping
to
ensure
that.
A
Thank
you
for
that
answer.
Of
course
you
talk
about
the
UK
as
a
whole
and
include
Scotland
in
that,
but
the
median
salary
for
the
workers
in
Scotland
is
actually
less
than
the
UK
average
and
in
response
to
this
committee's
immigration
inquiry,
several
employers
stated
that
the
thirty
thousand
pound
threshold
was
far
too
high.
Do
you
acknowledge
the
regional
variations
that
there
are
across
the
UK.
B
We
did
look
at
the
regional
variations
I
think
if
one
looks
at
the
sort
of
median
full-time
annual
earnings,
the
latest
figures
were
published
a
week
or
so
ago
and
relate
to
April
of
this
year
and
I.
Think
they
the
difference
between
the
UK
average
and
the
Scottish
average
is
a
few
hundred
pounds
on
a
base
of
what
is
it
slightly
under
thirty
thousand
pounds.
A
B
Think
that
sometimes
individual
businesses
see
migration
as
a
shortage
as
a
solution
to
shortages
and
difficulties
in
recruitment,
but
I
think
the
evidence
is
that
when
one
looks
at
the
economy
as
a
whole,
it's
not
really
that
effective.
If
I
try
and
give
it
a
particular
example.
An
employer
who
might
have
a
shortage
of
vacancy
at
the
moment
will
naturally
think
that
if
I
hire
a
migrant
I've
solved
that
shortage,
but
that
migrant
then
earns
money
and
then
spends
money
and
when
they
do
that
they're
creating
demand
for
labour
elsewhere
in
the
economy.
A
You
see
Oxford
Economics
said
that,
because
of
the
lack
of
the
reduced
numbers
of
e
workers,
M,
which
could
take
place
as
a
result
of
if
your
recommendations
were
implemented,
that
then
we
may
actually
have
to
have
tax
rises,
to
compensate
them
for
the
the
withdrawal
of
the
the
money
that
they
are
putting
into
the
economy.
And
do
you
think
Oxford
economics
are
wrong
in
that
regard?.
B
I
think
I
mean
we
commissioned
Oxford
Economics
to
do
some
work
for
our
report
as
well.
That
makes
it
very
clear
that
at
the
moment,
when
one
takes
EI
migrants
as
a
whole,
they
are
paying
more
in
taxes
than
they're
receiving
in
benefits
or
public
services,
but
that
doesn't
mean
that
every
single
one
of
those
migrants
is
contributing
more
in
taxes,
and
our
proposals
would
mean
that
actually
we
think
that
the
the
contribution
would
be
even
more
positive.
B
So
we
don't
think
we
think
that
if
the
changes
we
propose
a
dung
done
correctly,
that
actually
the
public
finances
would
improve.
Although
I
wouldn't
want
to
exaggerate
the
likely
benefit,
but
they
they
wouldn't
get
worse,
because
one
is
being
more
selective
about
migrants
and
with
one
selects
in
part
on
earnings
when
it's
selecting
for
people
who
generally
pay
higher
taxes,
it.
A
B
Overall,
they
pay
more
currently,
but
our
proposal
is
not
to
restrict
all
of
them,
which
is
to
shift
towards
a
more
highly
highly
skilled.
I
mean
II,
a
migration
since
2004
has
been
predominantly
into
lower
skilled
employment,
and
that
represents
now
sort
of
60%
of
the
EI
migrants.
But
the
Oxford
Economics
work
that
they
that
we
commissioned
from
them
suggested
that
those
sixty
percent
from
the
accession
countries
only
contributes
6%
of
the
total
surplus
of
all
EI
migrants
and
some
of
those
accession
migrants
will
themselves
be
highly
skilled.
C
B
There
is
already
a
separate
Scottish
shortage
occupation
list,
although
the
differences
are
relatively
small
I
think
our
argument
was
that
there
really
the
economic
case
for
having
a
distinctively
Scottish
migration
policy
was
not
particularly
strong.
I
mean
I.
Think
you
mentioned
the
sort
of
demographic
issue.
Sorry.
C
B
I
mean
I
think
that
the
issue
that
comes
up
here
is-
and
it's
not
unique
to
migration
policy.
Things
like
the
national
minimum
wage
is
similar.
There's
a
trade-off
between
having
a
system.
That's
relatively
simple
and
easy
to
understand
are
one
of
the
complaints
of
many
employers
about
the
current
system
is
how
complex
it
is,
and
obviously
regional
differentiation
would
introduce
a
new
level
of
complexity
into
the
system.
That
versus
sort
of
different
kind
of
economic
needs.
I
mean
our
view
was
that
we
didn't.
B
You
know
Canada,
for
example,
in
Australia,
do
have
experiences
of
having
some
region,
specifically
regional
visas
and
I.
Think
the
evidence
on
the
success
of
those
schemes
is
a
bit
mixed.
I
think
the
more
remote
parts
of
Canada
really
do
struggle
to
actually
retain
immigrants
who
are
who
enter
under
specific
regional
visas,
because.
C
Did
you
look
in
detail
at
the
Canadian
system?
That
is
the
one
that's
held
offers?
Are
we
in
which
you
could
have
a
national
immigration
policy
that
that
contains
regional
variations,
and
at
that
point,
I
wanted
to
raise
was
around
the
focus
seems
very
much
on
work
visas,
which
can
be
fairly
short
term
that
the
issue,
one
of
the
issues
we
have
in
Scotland,
is
once
people
come
on.
C
The
visa
is
encouraging
people
to
settle
in
Scotland
to
become
part
of
our
society
and
continue
to
here,
I'm,
not
convinced
that
the
system
that's
been
proposed
really
gives
people
that
can
a
long-term
settlement
option.
It
seems
very
focused
on
this.
Is
that
immediate
economic
need?
You
come
in
and
Sarab
that
and
then
that's
your
time
up.
Take
model.
B
What
the
tier
two
work
permit
system
is
a
system
with
a
path
to
settlement,
so
it
is
possible
for
migrants
to
come
in
under
those
scheme
and
and
after
a
number
of
years
they
have
to
meet
some
criteria
to
attain.
You
know
indefinitely
to
remain,
and
eventually
citizenship,
so
I
mean
I.
Think
that's
sort
of
you
know.
Quite
a
you
know:
that's
a
fairly
kind
of
common
system
around
around
the
world,
so
I
wouldn't
describe
this
as
a
sort
of
work.
Immigration
system,
which
is
primarily
temporary
I,
mean
I.
B
Migrants
who
come
in
and
under
those
sort
of
regional
visas
and
as
I
said
sort
of
areas
like
the
Atlantic
provinces,
only
managed
seem
to
manage
to
retain
something
like
40
percent
of
migrants
who
enter
under
those
schemes.
So
it's
not
actually
a
terribly
effective
way
in
preventing,
for
example,
depopulation
in
the
Atlantic
provinces.
B
B
Providing
value
are
the
ones
that
we
would
like
and
we're
not
so
concerned
about
what
the
actual
numbers
are
and
those
numbers
can
be
extremely
volatile
because
they're
not
just
influenced
by
UK
migration
policy,
they're
influenced
by
economic
circumstances
in
other
parts
of
the
world.
How
the
UK
economy
is
doing
no.
B
B
D
Okay,
I
just
I'm,
going
to
I'm
going
to
just
mention
some
numbers
for
you,
because
it's
really
important,
because
we
have
comment
a
few
moments
ago.
Enric
laids
population
has
decreased
by
eight
point.
Nine
percent
between
97
and
2017
Scotland
has
increased
by
6.7
the
age
groups,
with
annenberg
height
between
97
and
2017.
The
25
to
44
chaotically
has
decreased
by
28.6%,
with
a
75
plus
increasing
by
twenty
point.
Nine.
D
The
population
projections
for
2016
to
2020
six
and
require
it
is
to
have
a
3.8
percent
decrease
well
score
from
the
three
point,
two
percent
increase
and
final
point
as
the
population
projections
for
the
age
categories,
the
16
to
24
age
group
between
2016
2016
or
decreased
by
thirteen
point
two
percent,
but
the
75
plus
well
increase
by
20
point.
Eight.
Clearly
we're
going
to
get
the
people
to
come
and
attach
the
what
and
the
social
care
sector
dies
our
deal
with
an
aging
population.
I.
B
Mean
I
think
from
what
you're
describing
is
the
that
sounds
to
me
like
an
area
that
used
to
have
quite
a
lot
of
heavy
industry,
and
those
local
industries
are
not
doing
so
so
well
at
the
moment,
I'm
not
sure
if
that
is
accurate,
I
think
the
problem
is
that,
if
you
say
well,
is
migration,
a
solution
to
envy
Clyde's
problems?
The
issue
is
that
the
reasons
why
local
people
are
leaving
in
the
Clyde
will
also
apply
to
migrants.
B
You
may
be
able
to
record
to
recruit
migrants
in
the
short
run,
to
work
in
social
care,
but
it's
quite
likely
that
as
soon
as
they
have
the
freedom
to
do
so,
they
will
then
leave
for
better
economic
opportunities.
Elsewhere.
I
mean
the
Canadians
sort
of
live
in
caregiver
program,
which
is
sort
of
has
some
similarities
than
isn't
identical.
B
You
know
has
had
this
these
problems
that,
after
ten
years,
this
is
a
sort
of
specific
sort
of
social
care
visa
that,
after
ten
years
only
something
like
10
percent
of
the
people
who
had
come
in
through
that
route
were
actually
still
working
in
social
care,
because
the
fundamental
problem
is
that
working
working
in
social
care
is
not
very
attractive,
and
so
our
view
was
that
social
care
faces
very,
very
serious
problems.
But
we're
not
convinced
that
migration
is
the
solution.
B
D
Professor
25
local
authority
areas
and
Scotland
actually
experienced
negative
natural
change,
so
there
are
32
local
authorities
in
Scotland.
There
is
an
aging
population
and
people
are
going
to
go
from
one
local
authority
area
to
another.
I
think
we
all
agree
and
accept.
That
is
our
reality,
but
25
of
Iceland
had
a
deduction
and
the
population
people
have
got
to
come
from
somewhere
to
actually
walk.
D
B
Well,
I
think
is
our
view.
Is
that
there,
you
know
in
the
case
of
social
care.
There
are
plenty
of
domestic
people
workers
for
existing
residents
who
are
capable
of
working
in
that
sector.
It's
at
the
moment
that
they
simply
think
that
they
have
got
better
opportunities
elsewhere,
because
the
terms
and
conditions
in
Social
Care
are
very,
very
unattractive
and
I
think
you
know,
I
I
would
sort
of
really
go
back
to
the
point
that
you
may
be
able
to
recruit
migrants
in
the
short
run
to
plug
these
gaps.
B
But
unless
you
address
the
underlying
fundamental
cause
of
the
problems
is
addressed,
you
will
not
solve
them
in
that
in
the
medium
to
long
run,
because
you
know,
for
example,
I
described
the
Canadian
system.
The
problems
that
ran
into
they've
actually
closed
this
earlier
this
spring
to
to
new
entrants,
because
they
thought
it
wasn't
actually
not
because
they
had
they
haven't,
got
a
problem
with
ageing
population.
They
have,
as
you
know,
many
countries
have
it's
that
it
wasn't
actually
being
very
successful
in
addressing
the
problem.
D
But
people
who
go
to
work
in
that
particular
sector
will
have
special
a
special
skill
set
to
work
in
that
sector
and
they
accept
employers
and
businesses.
They
have
to
train
people
to
get
people
into
the
circular
as
well.
So
this
isn't
just
all
there
an
issue
that
that
that
migration
is
going
to
is
going
to
solve.
I
accept
that.
D
But
at
the
same
time
you
want
to
make
sure
that
people
are
going
to
go
into
that
particular
sector
who
have
that
relevant
skill
set
and
if
we
can
take
some
time
to
change
someone
up
to
get
them
theater
skills
as
compared
to
someone
who
potentially
has
them
know
you
can
go
in
to
work
in
that.
Satyr
and
I
gave
you
the
example
of
my
local
authority
area
as
to
how
acute
that
issue,
as
and
and
I've,
not
heard
anything
from
you.
B
And
when
I
think
at
the
moment,
if
one
takes,
for
example,
the
sort
of
the
may
the
biggest
occupation
in
social
care,
which
is,
is
care
assistant,
there
actually
is
not
that
much
training
that
most
employers
require
before
employing
someone
at
a
care
assistants
and
a
very
high
fraction
of
those
of
those
care
assistants
are
paid
the
minimum
wage.
So
I
think
that
you
know
it's
I
mean
if
there
are
arguments
that
actually
it
should
there
should
be
more
training,
but
obviously
training
costs,
money
and
again.
B
This
is
something
that
the
sector
is
is
very
short
of,
but
at
the
moment
that
is
not
really
I
think
an
accurate
description
of
the
the
main
bulk
of
employment
in
these
sectors,
so
I
think
I
would
go
back
to
simply
saying
that
you
know
migration
is
not
a
very
effective
way
to
do
this.
If,
for
example,
one
says
what
about
free
movement
as
a
solution
to
social
care
problems,
social
care
has
a
lower
share
of
EU
migrants
than
the
economy
as
a
whole.
The
same
is
true
of
the
NHS.
B
So,
if
you're
very
worried
about
social
care,
I
would
say
that
the
existing
migration
system
we
have
is
not
a
very
effective
one
at
solving
its
problems.
Actually,
we
did
flag
up
social
care
as
being
the
one
lower
skill
sector
that
we
were
very
concerned
about,
but
just
go
back
to
saying
that
we
really
don't
think
that
migration
might
give
you
a
short-term
fix,
but
it
isn't
a
medium
or
longer-term
solution.
B
A
You
thank
you
and
before
we
move
on-
and
professor
you
mentioned
on
a
couple
of
occasions-
the
situation
in
Canada
and
suggested
the
EM
yer
inquiries
showed
that
the
regional
air
variation
didn't
work.
Imagine
you
our
committee
conducted
its
own
immigration
enquiry
and
were
advised
by
dr
ehab
on
venmo
university
and
she
pointed
to
a
Canadian
government
evaluation
of
its
regional
migration
scheme,
which
used
income
tax
returns
to
find
out
where
people
stayed
and
they
found
that
82%
of
migrants
actually
stayed
in
the
region
that
they
were
originally
allocated
to.
B
What
that
mean,
the
Canadian
government
research
that
I'm
aware
of
I
mean
I
think
there's
a
very
big
difference
in
those
sort
of
retention
rates
across
Canada
as
a
whole
and
in
the
different
provinces
of
Canada.
So
if,
for
example,
you
take
the
areas
of
Canada
that
are
doing
economically
very
well
we're
going
to
talk
about
interior
Ontario,
British,
Columbia
sort
of
Manitoba
and
places
there,
you
would
see
very
high
retention
rates.
B
A
Adopt
a
now
I
do
accept
a
point
that
there
are
variations
and
retention
rates,
but
according
to
the
the
Canadian
government,
research
that
we
have
the
Atlantic
region
that
you
mentioned,
which
has
the
lost
retention
rate,
still
had
a
56%
retention
rate
and
if
you've
got
real
challenges
in
terms
of
sectors.
I
would
have
thought
that
56
percent
56
percent
retention
rate.
But
it
was
really
rather
good.
B
B
B
The
roots
of
that
depopulation
are
in
sort
of
economic
disadvantage
and
so
on,
and
we
think
that
actually,
the
the
policies
one
should
have
to
reduce
those
regional
inequalities
is
much
more
about
addressing
that
economic
disadvantage,
and
so
there's
a
danger
that
so
migration
is
used
as
a
way
of
avoiding
really
addressing
the
fundamental
causes
of
those
regional
inequalities.
Well,.
F
B
Well,
I
mean
the
application
process
is
open
to
everybody
from
the
UK,
and
you
know
then
there's
a
process
to
select
who
are
seen
as
the
the
most
suitable
candidates.
I
mean.
It's
not
the
case
that
any
member
is
thought
of
as
representing
any
particular
geographical
constituency
and
I
wouldn't
think
it
was
appropriate
for
this
kind
of
committee
to
have
members
who
are
representing
a
sort
of
particular
constituency.
But
we
we.
B
F
B
I
mean
the
I
mean
the
specific.
The
Scotland
specific
aspects
were
discussed
more
in
in
the
interim
update
that
we
published
actually
in
March
than
we
did
in
the
final
report
in
September.
So
I
think
many
of
the
issues
actually
in
Scotland
are
actually
not
very
different
from
the
rest
of
the
UK,
because
sorry.
F
To
interrupt
that,
maybe
in
your
assessment,
but
was
there
any
specific
modelling
carried
out
in
Scotland,
given
the
particular
issues
that
we
face,
the
devolved
government,
the
powers
of
the
devolved
government
that
need
to
to
pursue
economic
growth
through
income
tax
in
terms
of
relative
old
tax
price?
So
you
know
that's
why
I
asked?
Was
there
any
specific
modeling
reflecting
that
the
Scottish
position
specifically
I
mean.
B
We
have
done
in
various
places,
analysis
of
how,
for
example,
what
would
be
the
impacts
of
salary
thresholds
in
different
parts
of
the
UK,
including
Scotland?
We
kind
we
looked
at.
What
is
the
different
sort
of
demographic
projections
in
different
parts?
I
mean
we
have
not
done
an
assessment
of
how
different
migration
policies
would
affect
the
fiscal
position
of
the
Scottish
government
in
specifically
no
well.
F
That
presumably
begs
the
question
as
to
the
validity
of
your
conclusions
as
far
as
Scotland
is
concerned,
given
the
key
importance
of
the
issues
that
I've
just
raised,
you
mentioned
also
that
perhaps
one
way
to
address
Scotland's
demographic
challenges
would
be
to
increase
the
pension
age.
What
what
do
you
foresee
the
age
being
then.
B
We
didn't
actually
proposed
increases
in
the
state
pension
age.
The
only
we
did
show
what
would
happen
to,
for
example,
the
dependency
ratio
under
proposals
for
increases
in
the
state
pension
age.
That
already
are
simply
government
policy.
At
the
moment,
so
I
mean
at
the
point
we
were
simply
trying
to
make.
There
was
that
those
policies
to
increase
the
state
pension
age
that
are
already
in
place
are
more
effective
in
changing
the
dependency
ratio
than
a
migration
or.
B
Is
those
are
the
proposals
eventually
I,
think
right,
I
think
the
current
ones
I'm
not
sure
I'm,
going
to
be
able
to
give
you
the
exact
date
from
this
up
currently
for
them
to
rise
to
68
over
quite
a
long
period
of
time.
But
if
one's
looking
at
projections
sort
of
20
years
out,
which
we
have
been
doing
or
we've
just
been
taking
the
ONS
projection
that
that
is
what
is
currently
proposed
to
happen.
I
mean.
F
That
is
where
it
would
be
appropriate
to
have
a
differentiated
approach,
but
can
I
put
it
to
you
in
light
of
the
questions
I've
just
asked
and
the
answers
that
you
have
given
then
actually
what
you
have
come
up
with
is
a
policy
for
London
and
the
southeast,
and
it
does
not
reflect
the
interests
of
Scotland.
As
far
as
this
parent
is
concerned,
I.
B
F
You
have
just
accepted
that
you
didn't
carry
out
any
specific
modelling
reflecting
the
particular
position
in
Scotland,
including
with
regard
to
the
taxation
powers
at
this
Parliament
currently
has,
and
that
you
did
not
carry
any
specific
modelling
with
regard
to
that
key
issue.
So
I
suggest,
therefore,
that
absent
such
an
analysis,
this
report
doesn't
reflect
what
we
need
to
see
in
Scotland,
and
rather
it
seems
simply
to
reflect
the
interests
of
elsewhere
in
the
UK
specifically
London
and
the
southeast
I
mean.
B
I
wouldn't
accept
that,
just
as
we
haven't
done
any
specific
modeling
of
the
situation
in
Scotland,
we
haven't
done
any
specific
modeling
of
the
situation
in
London
and
the
southeast
and
I
think
when
one's
talking
about
the
fiscal
impacts
of
the
changes
that
we
propose.
I
would
be
very
surprised
if
Scotland
was
very
different
from
the
rest
of
the
UK,
because
its
actual
economic
situation
is
really
quite
close
to
the
to
the
UK
average.
G
And
I
have
to
say
the
officer
I've
been
really
frustrated
by
this
debate,
because
it's
happening
in
purely
narrow
economic
terms
and
we're
not
talking
about
units
of
labour,
we're
talking
about
people
who
are
so
much
more
than
their
net
economic
contribution.
I'd
be
interested
in
what
evaluation
you've
made
of
the
system
changes
that
would
be
required
to
implement
the
policy
changes
and
your
recommendations,
though,
in,
for
example,
the
changes
proposed
to
tier
two
are
quite
considerable.
It
would
involve
far
far
larger
number
of
people
than
at
present.
G
The
Home
Office
is
not
famous
for
its
efficiency,
its
accuracy,
the
robustness
of
the
systems
that
currently
employs.
There
are
people
who
way
three
years
or
more
for
a
decision.
Did
you
do
any
evaluation
of
how
long
it
would
take
the
Home
Office
to
grow
its
capacity
and
change
and
improve
that
systems
to
be
able
to
implement
the
recommendations.
B
We
don't
we
don't
we're,
not
as
a
committee,
either
expert
in
or
generally
get
involved
in
those
sort
of
operational
issues,
but
obviously
it
would
be
naive
of
us
to
be
completely
unaware
of
them.
So
we
did
part
of
our
proposal.
Was
that
the
tier
two
system
we
would,
as
you
say,
they
were
much
greater
burden
under
under
any
under
this
future
system
that
we
proposed
them
concurrently
and
there
are
concerns
about
how
fit
for
purpose
some
aspects
of
you
know.
B
The
operation
of
the
current
system
is
so
I
mean
we
are
very
serious
about
where
we
say
that
the
Home
Office
really
needs
to
engage
much
more
with
users
of
the
system,
which
they
don't
seem
to
do
very
much
at
the
moment
to
make
sure
that
this
is
fit
for
purpose.
But
our
proposals
are
based
on
the
assumption
that
the
Home
Office
is
capable
of
operating
and
system.
That
is
efficient.
G
You
explain
a
little
bit
more
around
what's
in
your
report
in
regard
to
the
reviewer
analysis
that
we'd
be
required
of
of
tier
two
and
much
of
what
you've
done
has
resulted
in
some
relatively
specific
recommendations.
There
are
offices,
specific
recommendations
in
relation
to
tier
two,
but
there's
also
a
section
in
your
report
believe
around
the
the
needs
and
response
I
think
to
what
the
evidence
that
was
submitted
to
your
particular
buy
business,
to
conduct
a
much
more
in-depth,
reviewer
or
analysis
of
the
tier
two
system.
G
Obviously,
on
the
time,
skills
that
were
operating
on
at
the
moment,
with
brags
at
our
sale
fast
approaching
the
transition
not
lasting
that
long
after
that,
the
challenges
of
conducting
that
kind
of
robust
review
and
then
implementing
the
changes
that
would
be
required
off
the
back
of
it
in
the
time.
Skill
that
we're
currently
looking
at
would
be
for
a
department
that
managed
to
60
years
on
screw
up
something
like
the
application
documents
of
the
wondrous
generation.
That
seems
to
be
beyond
their
capabilities.
I.
B
B
So
I
think
there
is
time,
although
it
is
correct
to
say
that
the
government
would
need
to
be
coming
forward
with
pretty
specific
proposals
in
the
not-too-distant
future,
in
order
to
give
business
adequate
time
to
plan.
But
I
think
some
of
the
proposals
that
we
make.
For
example,
when
we
say
we're
not
convinced
of
the
rezident
labor
market
test,
serves
much
purpose
at
the
moment.
That
would
simply
mean
well.
We
just
remove
that
from
the
current.
You
know,
evidence
required,
so
that
isn't
something
that
I
think
should
be
particular
will
be
particularly
particularly
difficult.
B
So
I
think
there
are
elements
that,
if
one
is
removing
from
the
existing
tier
soon
system
quite
a
lot
of
those
sort
of
requirements.
That
should
be
relatively
easy,
because
it's
about
stripping
out
bureaucracy
rather
than
adding
in
a
whole
set
of
questions
and
criteria
that
people
have
to
satisfy
and.
G
G
Were
you
able
to
find
out
or
produce
any
data
that
shows
there
being
a
net
economic
benefit
of
ending
freedom
of
movement,
or
were
you
limited
in
the
scope
of
what
you
were
able
to
do
to
try
to
design
a
system
based
on
the
assumption
that
policy
decision
had
already
been
made
and
tried
to
find
something
that
reduce
the
the
negative
economic
impacts
as
much
as
possible?
I
mean.
B
G
B
B
I
think
our
proposals
I
mean.
We
think
that
a
post
study
work
visa
with
sort
of
unrestricted
work
rights
would
increase,
demand
for
probably
increased
demand
for
places
in
our
educational
institutions,
but
we
think
the
demand
should
be
based
around
the
quality
of
the
education
offered
and
the
opportunity
to
moved
into
into
skilled
work.
So
our
proposals,
what
we
don't
propose,
a
specific
post
study
work
visa.
B
We
did
propose
extending
for
masters
and
PhD
students
the
opportunity
the
length
of
time
they
have
to
move,
find
skilled
work
after
completion
they
studied,
and
we
did
propose
that
the
advantages
that
currently
students
have
if
they
want
to
move
into
a
Tier
two
work
permit.
While
they
remain
in
country
that
those
should
be
remain
for
some
years
after
graduation,
even
if
they
lose
the
UK.
H
B
If
we
removed
students
from
the
net
migration
target,
it
would
require
an
awful
lot
of
work,
because
we
don't
have
good
statistics
in
particular
on
student
emigration
at
the
moment,
and
it
would
make
almost
no
difference
to
the
net
migration
statistics
and
the
reason
for
that
is
that
most
students
leave
at
their
end
of
their
studies,
so
they
come
in
and
they're
counted
as
an
immigrant.
At
the
moment
they
leave
their
camps
as
an
emigrant.
B
I
Give
you
know
a
good
morning,
professor
I
think
one
of
the
reasons
why
colleagues
are
concerned
about
Richards
criteria
is
because
it
does
give
the
London
our
competitive
advantage,
and
so
that's
obviously
expressed
by
law.
So
I
won't
go
into
any
follow.
One
thing,
I
would
say
is
of
course,
I've
never
had
really
completely
free
movement
across
the
EU,
because
when
the
accession
states
came
in
a
decade
and
a
half
ago,
the
UK
is
one
of
only
three
countries.
I
It
didn't
actually
boot
barrios
against
them,
as
you'll
probably
recall,
and
the
migration
is
of
course
a
two-way
street
and
I
know
that
in
your
report,
you're
really
focusing
on
the
work
group
only
which
I
think
is
probably
a
weakness
of
of
the
of
the
kind
of
idea
that
we're
set
for
you
I'm,
just
wondering
M.
You
don't
see
a
compelling
reason
for
having
different
policies
for
EE
and
non-iea
countries
in
terms
of
and
what
migration
and
following
breaks
will
be
the
impact
on
UK
citizens
going
to
live,
work
and
study
in
the
you.
B
Should
be
was
in
for
the
scenario
in
which
the
UK
immigration
has
not
been
part
of
the
negotiations
with
the
EU
and
so
in
some
sense,
the
UK
setting
its
immigration
policy
on
its
own
after
the
end
of
the
implementation
period,
we
didn't
make
any
Express
any
view
at
all
on
whether
immigration
should
be
part
of
the
negotiations
at
all.
So
I
think.
If
one
was
you
know
the
natural
place
for
having
some
depart,
some
preference
for
EU
citizens
in
the
UK
and
correspondingly
you
cases,
citizens
in
the
UK.
G
B
I
mean
you're
quite
right
to
say
that
freedom
of
movement-
you
know
it's
a
reciprocal
right,
and
so
there
is
a
risk
that
I
mean
that
the
UK
citizens
will
you
lose
those
rights
to
to
go
to
European
countries
and
I.
Think
prior
to
2004,
freedom
of
movement
was
more
or
less
not
just
reciprocal.
On
paper,
it
was
reciprocal
and
practiced
that
it
was
more
or
less
balanced,
but
I
think
that
what
happened
with
after
accession
of
the
Eastern
European
countries
in
2004
is
that
it
became
not
really
reciprocal
in
in
practice.
B
So
there
were
many
more
people
from
Eastern
Europe
who
wanted
to
exercise
their
treaty
rights
in
the
UK
than
UK
citizens
who
wanted
to
exercise
treaty
rights
in
in
Eastern
Europe,
and
that
was
probably
one
of
the
sources
of
the
concern
that
people
have
had
about.
Freedom
of
movement,
which
didn't
I
think
probably
was
less
concern
to
people
before
2004
as.
I
I
mentioned
only
three
countries
is
not
actually
restrict
the
number
of
accession
State
citizens
coming
in
initially,
and
there
was
no
throwing
out
of
the
whole
em.
You
know:
freedom
of
movement,
Paul,
C,
no
baby,
wasn't
thrown
out
with
the
bathwater
I'm
just
wondering
it.
You
know
it's
you've
looked
obviously
the
impact
of
restricting
migration
to
the
UK,
but
surely
that
as
a
quid
quo
pro
I
mean,
if
ever,
if
we
do
that,
then
else
and
maybe
restricts
us
from
going
to
there
to
the
continent
and
I'm.
I
I
B
Mean
it's
a
restriction
in
choice.
I
mean
it
wouldn't
be
that
unusual,
obviously
Canada.
You
know,
and
other
countries
Australia
restrict
the
right
of
our
citizens
to
immigrate
to
their
countries
and
they
don't
consult
us
when
they
when
they
make
those
changes.
So
I
mean
again
it's
not
a
completely
new
situation
in
a
global
sense.
Obviously
it
would
be
new
regard
to.
Thank
you.
Thank.
E
You
professor
Manning
I
just
wanted
to
understand
the
arguments
that
you
made
at
the
start
about
the
30,000
pound
salary
cap
and
how
that
impacts
on
industries
across
the
whole
of
the
UK,
who
rely
heavily
on
people
who
are
paid
under
that
amount
of
money.
Is
your
contention
that
that's
for
these
industries
to
sort
and
migration?
If
I
heard
you
correctly
a
role,
migration
is
absolutely
not
going
to
be
part
of
the
solution
to
those
problems.
B
Mean
I
think
that
our
view
is
that
migration
would
consult
skill
shortages
when
we're
talking
about
jobs.
That,
for
example,
require
sort
of
skills
that
require
a
relatively
long
training
period.
But
if
one's
talking
about
migration
as
a
solution
to
generalize
skill
shortages,
it
doesn't
really
solve
the
problem
because
they'd
increase
it
I
mean
there's.
A
shortage
is
essentially
labor
demand
running
it
running
ahead
of
labor
supply,
so
migration
does
increase
labor
supply,
but
because
those
migrants
also
spend
money
and
so
on,
they
also
increase
labor
demand,
so
it
doesn't
actually
solve
the
problem.
B
I
mean
I.
Think
our
view
is
that
the
you
know,
since
2004,
most
EU
migration
was
in
lower
skilled
jobs.
You
know
the
average
earning
of
migrants
from
the
accession
states
is
30%
below
the
average
and
that
that
availability
of
labor
to
those
lower
wage
and
generally
lower
productivity,
centers
sort
of
gave
them
a
tailwind
which
they
expect,
which
has
led
to
expansion.
B
But
if
our
vision
for
you
know
if
the
vision
for
Scotland
is
to
make
it
as
sort
of
a
high
wage,
high
productivity
kind
of
economy,
our
view
what
we
said
was
well,
it's
not
obvious
that
that
migration
has
actually
contributed
to
to
that
vision
and
a
little
bit,
that's
probably
gone
in
the
other
direction.
Aunt.
E
In
Edinburgh
here
last,
let
me
get
this
right.
Thursday
for
the
UK
hospitality,
industry
and
I
sat
next
to
a
person
who
owns
a
hotel
in
the
West
Country
of
England
and
I
have
family
down
there
and
has
hotels
in
Scotland.
He
told
me
that
they
simply
can't
get
staff
to
do
some
of
the
lower
wage
posts,
jobs
in
those
hotels
without
finding
people
who
come
from
different
parts
of
Europe
and
who
currently
worked
for
them.
If
the
salary
cap
is
thirty
thousand
pounds,
he
won't
have
those
people.
B
Met
many
of
the
jobs
in
the
hospitality
would
not
be
eligible
and
under
our
proposals,
but
the
hospitality
sector
has
been
fantastic
in
creating
lots
of
jobs
and
quantity
of
jobs,
but
it's
not
been
very
good
in
creating
quality
jobs.
Ninety-Five
percent
of
jobs
in
hospitality
paid
below
average
earnings-
and
you
know
it's
not
really
clear
that
you
know
this
is
a
safe
I
mean.
Obviously
it's
an
important
sector
in
the
West
Country
and
parts
of
Scotland.
B
No
one
is
saying
it
isn't
going
to
be,
but
if
you
want,
we
want
to
move
towards
a
high
wage,
high
productivity
economy.
Its
hospitality
isn't,
as
it
runs
at
the
moment,
which
pays
really
rather
low
wages
is
not
obviously
a
sector
that
you
you
want
to
encourage
in
terms
of
growth,
and
you
know
what
we've
said.
What
our
view
is
that
since
2004,
they
found
it
rather
easy
to
grow,
but
our
proposal
is
that
they
shouldn't
that
growth
should
not
be
so
easy
in
the
future.
B
Mean
I
think
that
every
extra
job,
that's
in
the
hospitality
industry
on
average,
makes
the
UK
a
lower
wage,
lower
productivity
economy.
So
it's
not.
If
you
talk
about
what
are
the
sectors
that
we
want
to
grow
as
a
share
of
employment
in
the
UK,
you
would
not
be
focusing
on
hospitality
as
one
of
those
sectors,
and
yet
we've
had
a
migration
policy
since
2004,
not
by
design
but
just
by
sort
of
accident,
really
which
has
favoured
Louis,
lower
wage,
lower
skill
sectors.
And
you
know-
and
you
know
what
we're
saying
is
well.
B
E
E
There
suggests
we
should
give
up
on
tourism
the
only
people
built
to
afford
to
stay
in
hotels
or
people
who
can
afford
to
me
500
pounds
a
night
in
the
middle
of
Edinburgh
or
London,
because
if
your
argument
falls
through
to
its
logical
extent,
everyone's
wages
will
have
to
go
up
to
a
level
that
they're
currently
not
at.
By
definition,
those
businesses
will
have
to
push
their
costs
up
by
definition.
Staying
overnight
will
cost
a
huge
amount.
B
Don't
think
it
will
destroy
it
and
I
think
it's
important
between
this
sector
competes
for
labour
with
other
sectors
like
retail
and
so
on.
I
mean
many
of
the
jobs
that
in
hospitality,
you
know,
could
potentially
be
done
by
people
who
are
not
currently
working
in
hospitality.
But
the
problem
hospitality
is
has
as
often
that
it
pays
very.
B
It
pays
very
low
wages,
as
I
said,
95%
of
the
jobs
pay
below
average
earnings,
and
so
the
sector
does
need
a
little
bit
of
pressure
on
it
in
order
to
I
think
to
increase
its
productivity,
to
provide
quality
of
jobs
rather
than
quantity,
of
jobs
and
and
and
so
by
making
migration
harder,
not
impossible.
We're
not
saying
there's
no
source
of
labor
for
these
this
sector
that
is
appropriate
nudge
for
them
to
go
down
that
route
of
is.
B
Well,
I
think
that
I
would
say
we're
interested
ultimately
in
providing
high
quality
jobs
for
UK
residents
they're
having
a
high
quality
of
life
for
UK
residents,
I'm,
not
entirely
sure
if
one
I
don't
know
about
those
hotel
chains,
but
I
don't
know
if
one
looked
at
the
wages
that
they're
paying
their
workers,
whether
they
are
actually
contributing
to
you
know
providing
a
high
quality
of
life
for
UK
UK
residents.
Thank
you
very
much.
A
Thank
you
very
much
following
on
from
them
Tavish
Scots
line
of
questioning
and
on
two
dozen
professor
mining
yeah
there's
another
area
of
the
economy,
which
is
also
very
important
to
the
Scottish
economy,
which
is
agriculture
and
the
National
Farmers.
Union
are
very
concerned
about
your
proposals,
because
99
percent
of
seasonal
agriculture
workers
in
the
UK
are
from
EU
countries
and
if
you
don't
have
access
to
those
workers,
there's
a
very
real
possibility
that
crops
will
go
on
harvested
and
I
was
then
concerned
by
some
of
the
comments
made
in
the
past
I.
A
Believe
in
your
report,
where
you
responded
to
concerns
that
the
seasonal
Agriculture's,
what
Kerr
scheme
wasn't
say
sufficient
to
meet
the
needs
of
the
industry
and
if
I
could
just
quote
from
your
report,
you
see
well.
The
failure
to
have
some
type
of
seasonal
agricultural
worker
scheme
be
bad
for
the
sector.
It
is
a
small,
low
wage,
low
productivity
sector
in
the
wider
UK
context.
So
this
should
not
be
seen
as
catastrophic
for
the
economy
and
you
think
that
crops
going
on
harvested
is
really
not
catastrophic
for
the
economy.
I.
B
Mean
it
wouldn't
be
I
mean,
let
me
say:
first
of
all,
we
did
propose
a
seasonal
agricultural
workers
scheme
in
this,
for
exactly
the
reasons
that
you
gave
that
19,
that
we
see
close
to
a
hundred
percent
of
the
work
workers
in
the
seasonal
agriculture
are
currently
migrants
and
that
and
that
we
don't
see
any
realistic
prospect
for
that
being
source
within
the
resident
labor
market.
But
I
think
that
I
think
that
we.
B
What
we
also
said
is
that
one
has
to
recognize
that
the
level
of
productivity
in
agriculture
as
a
whole
is
is
40
percent
of
the
national
average.
Some
parts
of
it
are
more
productive,
but
it
really
is
a
very
low
productivity
sector
and
again
it's
one
of
the
sector's.
When
one
would
like
them,
one
doesn't
have
anything
against
the
sector.
We
would
like
them
to
produce
output
in
a
more
productive
way.
So
it's
not
that
we
want
crops
to
go
on
harvested.
B
A
I
mean
just
to
clarify,
then,
if
you
have
said
that
the
pilot
seasonal
agricultural
worker
scheme
is
not
sufficient
to
croute
the
number
of
workers
that
they
actually
need,
I
mean
from
what
you
seem
to
be
seeing.
You
seem
to
be
seeing
that
in
agriculture,
you
want
to
see
some
businesses
collapsing.
You
you
believe
that
they're,
not
productive
and
you
you
would
like
to
see
them
go
to
the
wall.
Is
that
basically,
what
you're
saying
no.
B
We
would
want
to
see
them
increase,
you
know,
increase
their
productivity,
so
we
want
to
see
all
businesses
thrive,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day
it's
got
to
be
that
you,
you
know
you,
you
can't
be
productive
enough
in
order
to
pay.
You
know
competitive
wages,
I'm
afraid,
there's
no
business.
That
has
the
right
to
be
in
business
at
wages
that
they
say
that
they
say
they
can
afford
I'm
afraid
that
is
true,
not
just
in
agriculture,
but
but
everywhere
else,
so
I
mean
what
our
proposals
are.
B
We
were
that
we
do
recognize
that
this
sector
is
very
dependent
on
a
seasonal
agricultural
labor
and
the
pilot
is
a
government
proposal.
That's
not
our
proposal
and
I
think
the
nf.
You
had
the
concern
that
it
was
in
the
numbers
involved,
a
rather
small
relative
to
the
total
seasonal
agricultural
workforce,
but
I
mean
I.
B
Think
if
one
looks
at
the
problems
over
the
last
two
seasons
that
farmers
have
had
in
Scotland
and
the
rest
of
the
UK,
it's
important
to
understand
that
those
have
been
problems
that
have
occurred
without
changes
to
the
current
migration
system
at
all.
It's
primarily
been
driven
by
the
fact
that,
when
the
pound
fell
in
value
after
the
referendum-
seasonal
agricultural
workers,
suddenly,
if
they're
earning
in
pounds,
their
wages,
have
essentially
fallen
by
fifteen
percent,
they
could
earn
more
if
they
went
to
Germany
or
other
parts
of
the
eurozone.
And
so
you
know
those
recruitment.
B
B
Mean
the
as
we
showed
in
the
report,
the
amount
of
land
that's
been
planted
with
quite
a
lot
of
the
labor
intensive
crops
is
increased
the
lot
since
2004.
This
is
one
of
the
sectors
that
has
had
a
tailwind,
with
a
ready
availability
of
lowest
lower
skilled
workers
prepared
to
work
for
lower
wages
from
Eastern
Europe,
so
I
think
it
is
possible
that
those
that
sector
would
go.
B
You
know
would
not
expand
as
fast
as
it
has
done
over
the
past
10
15
years,
it's
possible
even
that
it
contracts
a
bit
but
I
think
it's
important
to
have
a
sense
of
perspective
on
that
that
we'll
be
sending
the
sector
back
to
where
it
was
a
few
years
ago.
It's
not
sort
of
completely
destroying
a
sector.
B
Mean
I
think
you
have
to.
We
have
a
very
low
unemployment
rate
generally
in
Scotland
in
the
UK
at
the
moment,
so
our
problem
is
not
really
with
the
quantity
of
jobs.
It
is
with.
The
quality
of
jobs
is
with
real
wages
at
the
moment.
So
it's
important
that
the
sector's
that
we
really
want
to
grow
other
sectors
that
pay
higher
wages.
B
We
want
there
to
be
upward
pressure
on
wages
within
sectors,
because
those
are
what
determined
people's
living
standards
ultimately
and
I
think
that
some
of
these
sectors-
yes,
you
know
we
do-
want
there
to
be
competition
among
employers
for
workers
that
the
workers
will
then
go
to
the
employers
who
can
pay
them
the
better
wages
and
those
generally
are
the
more
productive
workers.
That
is
the
mechanism
by
which
we
become
a
more
prosperous
economy
and
society.
B
I
Very
much
Kim,
you
know,
I
mean
to
me
this
is,
is
something
civil
look
serve
some
thought
I'm
some
kind
of
laboratory
I
mean,
if
röszke
to
talk
about
real
people.
If
I've
got
a
small
gas
station
Halen's,
you
know
someone
in
my
and
in
his
mid-50s
and
he's
employing
four
or
five.
What
comes
in
your
tiny
compete,
not
just
there
locally
but
internationally
for
customers.
You
know
m-my
forcing
up
wages,
making
my
business
uncompetitive
am
I,
going
to
suddenly
be
working
in
the
artificial
intelligence
industry
or
something
I
mean
it's.
I
A
lot
of
these
people
do
not
have
other
options.
It's
it's
simply
not
the
case
that
the
quarter
of
a
million
people
work
and
it's
got
to
tourism,
industry
or
the
tens
of
thousands
of
work
in
agriculture.
Can
change
and
I
think
it's
it's
quite
flippant
to
talk
about
effectively
destroying
people's
lives
and
businesses.
By
saying
we
can
go
back
to
where
we
are
in
2004.
I
People
invested
at
that
time,
their
money,
that's
their
skills
and
emotions
and
building
up
businesses,
and
you
seem
to
think
well,
you
know
at
the
end
of
the
day,
you
know
they're,
not
particularly
economically
productive.
So
so
what
and
you
talk
about
quality
of
life
if
ordinary
families
can't
afford
to
stay
in
a
hotel
because
I'm
no
longer
a
competitive
and
they
take
that
money
overseas?
How
is
that
helping
than
the
the
UK
corner
with
their
not
spending
money
holidaying
in
the
hey
ones,
on
Cornwall
er
and
wheels?
I
In
small
island
villages
or
in
other
parts,
that
may
not
be
these
what
cuz
they
have
to
bring
them
in
from
elsewhere,
because
of
simply
isn't
enough
people
available
to
actually
work
who
have
the
the
the
apt
student,
possibly
my
attitude
to
what
can
these
places
I
mean
it's
not
an
easy
job?
What
can
these
long
shifts-
and
you
know
in
hotels,
etcetera
and
far-off
rural
places?
B
Well,
I
think
that
the
I
mean
those
communities
often
has
also
have
a
problem
with
retaining.
You
know,
people
who
grow
up
there,
leaving
there
and
so
and
that's
connected
to
the
fact
that
the
you
know
the
employment
opportunities
in
those
areas
are
often
not
terribly
appealing.
So
I
think
that
what,
on
the
one
hand,
you
know
and
there
so
that's
sort
of
part
of
I,
think
one
of
the
things
that
those
communities
should
be
trying
to
do
should
be
trying
to
use.
B
C
Clare
Baker,
thank
you.
Convener
and
I
mean
I,
do
understand
the
argument
that
we
have
identified
low
skill
and
lower
wage
sectors.
Judaism
can
be
open
to
this
as
well
as
agriculture
and
so
I
understand
the
desire
to
increase
wages
within
that
sector.
I'm.
Just
not
convinced
that
cutting
off
the
labor
supply
is
the
way
to
do
that
and
I
wanted
to.
The
committee
have
done
any
analysis
of
the
impact.
C
This
would
have
on
particular
sectors
that
members
have
identified
this
mornin
and
also
where,
when
before
I
did
spoken
about
Scotland's
low
bar
three
and
elderly
population,
we
can
see
other
areas
across
the
UK
that
are
facing.
You've
argued
similar
problems
where
the
workers
to
replace
the
what
a
freedom
event
stopped
where
the
workers
to
replace
those
that
come
from
overseas
where
they
going
to
come
from
within
the
UK
economy.
B
Well,
I
think
the
first
thing
is
to
say
that
I
mean
there's
the
existing
stock
of
people
who
already
here
so
there's.
No
one
is
proposing
any
change
to
them
that
they
should
be.
You
know,
so
they
have
settled
status
and
so
on,
and
it's
also
even
under
our
proposals.
It
would
not
be
that
one
is
cutting
off
the
flow
of
lower
skilled
migrants
completely
because
there
is
always
a
flow
through
other
non
work,
non-work
roots,
so
I
think
we
think
of
it
as
more
accurate
to
think
of
things.
B
Me
something
like
the
family
roots
and
so
on,
xylem
roots
and
things
like
this
so
they're
quite
a
lot
of
other,
so
that
someone
who
comes
in
under
the
family
roots,
we
would
see
quite
a
lot.
Non-Trivial
numbers
actually
working
in
lower
skill,
lower
skill
jobs.
So
what
one
is
doing
here
is
really
meaning
that
the
restricting
the
growth
in
the
labor
supply
to
these
sectors,
not
proposing
reducing
the
overall
labor
supply,
it's
reducing
the
growth
in
the
labor
supply,
and
yes,
that
would
put
more
pressure
on
these
sectors.
B
C
Are
honest
about
words
now
well,
and
we
do
yeah
I
think
we're
the
connected.
I
mean
I
might
have
described
the
extreme
difficulties.
These
sectors
both
face
I,
think
you
know,
and
you've
also
expressed
an
opinion
that
we
should
be
the
constrict
and
growth
in
these
sectors
with
and
choose
them
in
agriculture,
which
I
think
you
know
as
as
astonishing,
actually
to
make
those
statements
this
morning.
C
B
Not
growth
in
I
mean
I
think
that
if
you
say
people
I
think
have
find
it
very
hard
to
say
that
they
don't.
If
we
ask
people
what
sectors
would
you
like
to
grow
as
a
share
of
the
economy,
people
often
find
those
questions
very
easy
to
answer.
They
talk
about
tech
and
high-end
manufacturing
and
universities,
and
things
like
that.
But
the
other
side
of
that
coin
is
that
there
then
have
to
be
some
sectors
that
you
say
yes,
I'm
prepared
to
see
fall
as
a
share
of
total
employment.
B
People
find
do
find
that
much
harder
to
talk
about,
because
it
does
mean
you
know
to
people
small
business
people
who've
worked
a
you
know.
It
worked
very
hard
on
their
business,
sometimes
mean
meaning
it's
a
little
bit
harder,
but
I'm,
afraid
I
think
those
are
the
harder
decisions
that
you
that
you
have
to
make
in
some
cases
that
we
have
gone
down
and
wage
low
productivity
route
in
the
UK
as
a
whole
by
accident
more
than
design.
B
And
the
question
is
whether
you
want
to
continue
going
down
that
route
or
whether
you
want
to
try
and
rebalance
towards
a
higher
wage,
higher
productivity
economy.
And
if
you
do
that,
you
sort
of
need
to
I.
Think
our
view
is,
you
do
need
to
have
migrant
migration,
that's
easier
for
higher
skilled
than
lower
skilled
workers.
A
A
Okay,
let's
move
on
our
second
item
of
business
today
is
an
evidence
session
with
creative
Scotland
and
I
would
like
to
welcome
our
witnesses.
Robert
Wilson,
the
chair
of
creative
Scotland
and
Ian
Monroe,
the
acting
chief
executive
of
creative
Scotland.
Thank
you
for
joining
us
this
morning
and
I'd
like
to
invite
mr.
Wilson
to
make
a
short
opening
statement.
J
Thank
You
convener,
and
thank
you
also
to
the
committee
for
for
inviting
us
here
to
give
evidence
this
morning
and
for
the
opportunity
to
say
some
opening
remarks.
You
will
have
seen
our
written
submission
to
the
committee,
which
provides
up-to-date
information
on
a
range
of
topics
that
has
been
of
interest
to
the
committee
over
the
past
year.
I
hope
that
you
found
this
useful
and
both
Ian
and
I
will
be
happy
to
answer
questions
on
any
of
these
topics
or
anything
else.
You
would
like
to
talk
about
during
this
session.
J
It
has,
as
you
know,
being
a
challenge
for
creative
Scotland,
but
also
one
where
a
great
deal
has
been
achieved.
I
joined
the
organization
as
chair
in
February
of
this
year
and
following
the
departure
of
the
previous
chief
executive
in
July,
we
appointed
Ian,
as
acting
chief
executive
and
I'd
like
to
recognize
everything
that
he
has
done
over
the
recent
months.
J
Everyone
at
creative
Scotland
is
committed
to
rebuilding
that
trust
and
confidence
in
our
organization
and
we're
all
working
extremely
hard
to
do
this,
alongside
continuing
to
deliver
with
care,
effective,
ongoing
support
of
the
Arts
screen
and
creative
industries.
In
Scotland,
we
have
instigated
and
delivered
some
major
pieces
of
work
over
the
past
few
months,
which
will
help
us
to
achieve
this.
J
In
July,
we
commissioned
an
independent
evaluation
of
the
last
round
of
regular
funding,
the
recommendations
from
which
are
included
in
our
submission
to
the
committee
today,
along
with
all
the
other
feedback
that
we
have
received.
This
will
feed
on
our
broader
review
of
our
approach
to
funding,
and
we
aim
to
achieve
this
next
year,
in
which
we
involve
the
voices
of
the
P
and
the
organization
that
we
are
here
to
support.
I
have
instigated,
along
with
the
board
and
wadiyan,
a
process
of
organizational
development.
J
Alongside
this,
as
the
newly
appointed
chair,
I
have
been
overwhelmingly
impressed
with
the
dedication,
the
expertise,
the
commitment
and
the
sheer
hard
work
of
our
staff
that
bring
to
supporting
the
Arts
screen
and
creative
industries
on
a
daily
basis.
In
2017-18,
we
made
over
a
thousand
awards
to
a
total
of
twenty
70
million
pounds
to
artists
creative
organizations
and
projects
across
Scotland.
J
A
J
Well,
as
I
said
in
my
opening
remarks,
this
has
been
a
challenging
time
for
for
creative
Scotland
and
when
I
came
in,
it
became
clear
that
there
were
some
fundamental
changes
that
we
needed
to
to
instigate.
This
is
an
extremely
impressive
organization,
but
clearly
there
are
aspects
of
it
that
need
to
be
improved
and
the
way
I've
seen
organizations
the
past
that
this
is
a
perfect
time
to
look
as
an
organization
to
see
where
the
strengths,
where
the
weaknesses
are
and
see,
if
how
we
can
improve
and
move
on
in
a
much
stronger
way.
Okay,.
A
J
A
company
called
open
change
in
Dundee.
Now
they
have
they've
had
a
very
strong
track
record.
They
work
very
closely
with
historic
environment
Scotland
and
we
were
impressed.
We
went
through
a
very
rigorous
recruitment
process
and
we
were
very
impressed
with
what
with
the
approach
they
were
going
to
be
taking
and
they
will
be
working
with
us
over
the
next
six
months.
Okay,.
A
K
A
K
A
K
K
And
we
will
assimilate
all
of
that
information
and
reflect
on
it
and
then
take
that
out
for
concert,
consultation
and
conversation
with
the
sector
in
a
variety
of
different
ways.
Online,
and
indeed
in
connect
group
sessions.
It
will
be
planning
in
the
early
part
of
next
year.
That
will
all
give
a
give
us
all
the
opportunity
to
understand
not
just
what
the
needs
are,
but
what
the
best
models
might
be
and
what
we
will
do
thereafter.
K
As
to
refine
that
propose
some
models
again
test
that
with
representatives
from
the
staff
in
the
sector
before
we
finalize
that
model
and
then
look
towards
the
implementation
period,
and
of
course,
when
we
understand
that
this
is
quite
broad
in
its
scope,
we
will
have
to
have
a
some
form
of
kind
of
transition
between
one
model
in
the
next.
I
will
need
to
handle
that
very,
very
carefully
and
more
sensitive
to
ensuring
that
we
have
a
continuous
offer
there
that
works
for
people
in
sector
file.
So
we
moved
to
a
different,
more
effective
model.
K
I
think
we
would
anticipate
overall
that
we
will
still
have
some
form
of
mix
of
regular
funding
in
some
way,
shape
or
form,
coupled
with
project
based
funding
in
some
way
shape
or
form,
coupled
with
strategic,
targeted
funding.
But,
as
I
said
earlier,
I
think
it's.
The
is
the
balance
across
all
three.
If
there
was
an
understanding,
the
dynamic
and
complementarity
of
them
will
be
taking
stock
of,
as
well
as
the
the
detailed
processes
you.
A
K
Initial
scoping
work
will
be
examining
those
international
models
as
well
I
think
we
want
to
have
further
conversations
with
Arts,
Council,
England
and
Wales,
but
but
also
in
an
international
context,
if
there's
anything
significant
of
interest.
Of
course,
we
will
want
to
have
those
conversations
to
to.
K
The
form
of
that
is
well
I
can't
be
absolutely
sure
yet,
but
it
will.
It
will
be
some
form
of
documentation
that
we
were
able
to
to
take
for
conversations
with
people
in
a
transparent
way.
I
think
it's
fundamental,
that
we
are
able
to
explain
the
steps
of
the
journey
that
we're
going
on
and
afford
people
the
opportunity
to
feed
that
conversation
about
what's
best.
A
Yuria,
that
was
one
of
the
one
of
the
strong
arguments
that
came
out
from
from
the
sector
as
it
is
all
about
committees.
Scrutiny
was
that
in
sectoral
organisations
were
competing
with
artists
for
funding
and
and
over
and
above
that,
that
is
a
frustration
amongst
artists
that
the
the
current
system
of
funding
doesn't
really
leave
them.
Many
opportunities
compared
to
the
old
system
under
the
Arts
Council,
which
gives
smaller
grants
for
artists,
is
that
something
that
you've
given
quite
a
lot
of
attention
to
in
this
country.
Some
work
that
you're
doing
we.
K
Absolutely
will
be
an
analyst,
my
point
about
that
Cannavale
if
the
roots
the
funding
and
how
they
work
most
effectively.
I
think
the
the
point
about
the
site
to
development
organizations
is
absolutely
understood.
I
think
it's
worth
recognizing
that
we
when
we
ran
the
first
regular
funding
process
in
2050
for
the
2015
to
18
portfolio
sector
development
organizations
were
included
as
part
of
that
process.
A
Gay
know
it's
also
a
fundamental
point
and
the
time
time
again
is
that
you
know
in
terms
of
public
money,
there's
a
lot
of
public
money
going
to
support
art,
art
administrators
management
and
whereas
artists
themselves
are
left
to
struggle
from
one
small
grant
to
the
next
and
just
Scrabble
around
and
whatever
they
can,
they
can
get.
Oh
that's
the
fundamental
challenge,
yeah.
K
Absolutely
recognize
that
and
I
think
I
mean
two
points
on
that.
One
is
I.
Think
most
people
would
recognize
the
value
that
sector
development
organizations
have
over
all,
but
it
is
that
tension
with
those
who
are
the
creators,
producers
and
presenters
of
that
work
and
I.
Think
it's
partly
why
we
were
currently
focused
on
on
a
refinement
to
the
under
15,000
pounds
open
project
fund,
in
order
to
ensure
that
we're
targeting
through
that
single
mechanism
support
for
individual
artists.
K
We
just
made
an
announcement
yesterday
about
the
latest
round
of
open
project
funding
and
what
you
see
is
nearly
a
million
pounds
of
awards.
There
244
individual
grants,
the
majority
of
which
are
to
individual
artists,
and
you
know
so
it's
still
a
strong
component
part
of
what
we're
able
to
offer.
But
there
are
I,
don't
think
we
should
overlook
the
fact.
Actually,
funding
for
regularly
funded
organizations
them
themselves,
or
indeed
through
other
targeted
funds,
do
also
offer
opportunities
for
individual
artists
to
to
be
employed
and
produced
at
work.
I
mean
our
latest
statistics
from
2016-17.
K
K
C
C
So
the
reviews
you're
undertaking
at
the
moment
you've
described
a
number
of
them
this
morning
and
obviously
Ian
Monroe
is
here,
is
the
acting
chief
executive
can
ask
when,
as
a
time
scorer
decisions
made
about
the
appointment
of
a
she
takes
out
you
temp,
and
are
you
comfortable
moving
forward
with
the
the
depths
of
the
inquiries
over
at
the
moment
with
our
permanent
chief
executive
uncaused?
Yes,.
J
I
mean
the
organizational
change
review,
which
is
very
much
the
bit
that
I'm
I'm
championing
on.
As
I
said
earlier,
there
is
a
time
in
an
organization
where
this
type
of
review
is
absolutely
crucial
and
we
felt
that,
having
discussed
it
with
the
ball
that
we
needed
to
push
on
with
that
sort
of
review.
You
know
the
recruitment
process
of
a
new
chief
executive
would
probably
take
six
to
nine
months
and
then
the
the
new
person
would
then
have
to
get
themselves
fully
under
their
feet
under
the
desk.
J
It's
a
very
deep
and
far-reaching
review,
and
one
which
will
also
have
a
strong
external
focus,
open
change
again
part
of
their.
The
reason
for
their
selection
was
how
they
have
worked
very
strongly
with
external
stakeholders
to
sort
of
cast
a
light
into
our
organization,
but
I
think
there
was
very
much
a
sense
that
we
had
to
keep
the
momentum
for
change
moving
forward.
It's.
J
The
organizers
review
we've
just
started
that
process.
In
fact,
we've
had
two
that
they
were
appointed
in
October
and
I.
Think
it's
it's
really
too
early
at
this
stage
to
describe
the
full
extent
of
how
far
that
review
will
be
going,
but
I
think
what
you
should
be.
Rest
assured,
as
it
is
seen
as
a
really
very,
very
important
priority
that
the
strengths
of
this
organization
are
are
clearly
enunciated,
but
also
where
there
have
been
weaknesses
in
the
past.
C
Can
ask
about
the
wave
hold
review
of
the
2018
21
funding,
which,
probably
you
might
argue
it
wasn't
response
telling
quietly,
but
it
tightened
along
with
reading
and
quietly
is
that
when
would
instruct
you
to
be
concluded,
because
the
committee
have
received
a
number
of
papers
frankly
at
Scotland
that
courts
from
the
we--the
Hill
review,
but
we
don't
actually
have
I
finalized?
Is
it
a
finalized
copy
of
it?
And
so
what's
the
status
of
that
review
at
the
moment,
it's.
K
Not
available
yet,
but
if
I
can
just
explain,
because
we
did
actually
Commission
in
the
previous
artful
process
as
well
a
similar
piece
of
work,
but
their
significance
and
importance
and
value
of
this
piece
of
work
I
think,
is
what
we've
recognized.
So
we
commissioned
it
originally
in
July,
I
was
quite
an
ambitious
timescale.
It
was
kind
of
seven
week
turnaround
an
involved
consultation
with
staff
and
the
leadership
of
the
organization,
including
the
board,
as
well
as
all
of
the
individual
applicant
organisations,
and
we
had
on
this
occasion.
K
What
we
observed
when
we
got
into
it
was
actually
it
was
an
opportunity
there
to
get
even
greater
value
from
that
piece
of
work.
As
I
said,
the
context
for
this
and
the
value
for
this
was
the
ability
for
it
to
play
quite
powerfully
into
these
reviews
that
we
were
planning
to
undertake,
including
that
wider
funding
review
that
I
spoke
about
it.
K
It's
really
important,
though,
at
this
stage
that,
because
that
is
such
an
important
piece
of
work
and
covers
quite
testing
and
challenging
ground
for
the
organisation,
there
is
a
bruising
experience,
including
for
staff
I'm
very
sensitive
to
that
in
terms
of
supporting
the
staff
to
really
take
time
to
understand
that
report.
The
issues
that
is
discussing
and
the
recommendations
that
is
making
and
get
people
comfortable,
whether
before
we
shared
it
in
in
due
course
and
I,
would
anticipate.
C
One
final
question:
the
so
the
reviews
that
aren't
good
at
the
moment
there
are
number
of
reviews,
and
you
said
that
you
don't
recently
named
some
open
funding
Awards.
Does
that
mean
you
don't
expect
to
the
views
that
aren't
going
to
have
any
impact
on
upcoming
Awards
or
our
state
code
was
quite
cleared
about?
The
current
awards
are
available
that
they
might
change
or
what
the
time
skills
for
any
changes
might
be.
We.
K
Know
we've
got
some
communication
to
do
now,
as
we
internally
as
well
as
externally
about
how
these
reviews
of
dovetailing
and
and
will
move
forward.
Some
of
the
next
steps
are
only
possible
to
know
once
you've
gone
through
one
stage
of
it,
so
it
will
be
important
as
that
ongoing
communication
in
the
meantime,
that
I
think
is
really
important
for
people
to
know
and
understand.
K
The
there
is
ongoing
business
delivery
and
the
opportunities
for
people
to
access
support
in
development
terms,
not
just
in
funding
terms,
will
continue
we're
not
going
to
disrupt
the
current
offer
in
terms
of
the
three
routes
to
funding.
We
will
continue
to
deliver
those
three
as
planned
and
as
communicated,
but
as
we
as
we
do,
move
forward
into
the
prospect
of
new
models
and
then
in
due
course.
C
I'm
sure
you
recognize
how
important
that
is
given
one
of
this
she's
bahut
over
this
summer
was
the
Tooting
fund,
the
way
in
which
that
was
announced
to
people
not
being
aware
of
the
changes
and,
if
you're,
nice,
the
same
things
regular
fund,
and
it
just
been
confusing
around
that
about
how
important
it
is
going
forward.
Yeah.
K
K
And
the
touring
phone
fund,
you
know
we
recognize
that
you
know
a
different
approach
would
have
been
better.
But
since
we've
engaged
with
the
theater
and
dance
I
turned
FST
themselves
proactively
and
collaboratively
they've
helped
shape
what
the
tutoring
from
this
has
been
launched
as
in
August
of
this
year,
and
indeed
that
will
continue,
because
we
are
currently
recruiting
independent
sector
representatives
to
be
part
of
the
panel.
That
makes
decisions
on
those
awards
and
we're.
Also.
The
deadline
for
the
applications
is
next
week
and
we've
already
seen
some
applications
coming
through
for
that.
K
But
that
will
continue,
if
committed
in
the
published
guidance
that
we
will
reflect
on
the
experience
of
all
of
that
in
terms
of
future
iterations
of
the
Turing
fund
and
adjust
that
as
necessary
as
informed
by
the
by
the
sight
of
themselves.
So,
if
I
direct
and
put
in
a
very
helpful
way
and
I
think
there's
a.
I
Funding
actually
convener
thanks
if
I
Sookie
I
mean
you
have
mentioned.
A
lot
talked
a
lot
about,
and
you've
talked
about
it,
for
example,
of
balance
of
funding
but
and
I
like
it
PG
of
your
submission,
and
we
look
at
the
geographic,
a
funding,
distribution
for
regular,
open
project
and
target
funding
and
notice.
The
area
I
represent
North,
E
or
sure
the
grants
of
100.
I
Just
over
hundred
ninety
two
thousand
pounds
and
year
1617
were
only
one
percent
of
the
19
million
pounds
the
Glasgow
got
so
Glasgow
has
got
four
times
the
population
and
not
theatre,
but
it's
a
hundred
times
a
number
of
grant
awards.
And
if
you
look
at
the
two
Scottish,
while
just
said
he's
Edinburgh
Glasgow,
they
get
sixty
percent
of
the
number
of
grants
and
sixty
percent
of
the
tool
and
funding
over
forty
million
pounds
at
66
million.
So
I'm
just
wondering.
I
What's
what
what
gives
gold
will
do
to
try
and
encourage
more
applications
from
organisations
and
groups
out
with
the
big
city
state
insurers
are
much
more
even
distribution
of
funding
and
to
try
and
support
and
stimuli
out
groups
and
individuals
and
those
it
is
I,
think
to
be
fair.
The
laws
were
disproportionate,
a
grant
awards
in
Edinburgh
and
Glasgow.
For
obvious
reasons.
I
You
know
that
kinda
magnets
for
for
people
of
an
artistic
pain,
but
you
know
25
times
a
per
capita
grant
award
seems
to
me
shockingly
disproportion,
and
it's
not
just
of
course
nor
theatre
as
many
are,
that
it
isn't
scored.
Western,
Badman
and
sure
a
foal
cut,
for
example,
also
seem
to
have
very
low
levels
of
applications
awards
and
just
want
to
know
what
can
be
done
to
bounce
on
that
I
can.
K
There
is
in
place
here,
but
I
think
we
should
see
the
you
know.
For
example,
the
work
of
the
regularly
funded
organisations
are
captured
in
terms
of
the
geographic
base,
location
of
those
organisations,
but
over
a
hundred
and
twenty-one
that
we
are
supporting
in
this
nine
three-year
period,
seventy
four
percent
of
their
them
and
their
work
takes
place
across
the
whole
of
the
geography
of
Scotland.
So
there's
a
distinction
there
between
where
they
are
geographically
based
and
that's
important,
but
also
where
they
were
the
work
and
the
activity
itself
actually
happens.
K
We
also
have
national
programs
that
we're
that
we
work
on
things
like
the
youth
music
initiative.
You
know
that's
nearly
a
quarter
of
a
million
school
children
of
and
young
people
have
been
involved
in
activity
in
the
most
recent
year.
For
that
across
all
32
local
authorities,
but
the
the
get
to
the
heart
of
your
question,
I
think
in
terms
of
recognizing
what
these.
What
the
data
and
the
statistics
tell
us
and
addressing
that
one
of
the
most
important
interventions
that
we've
been
undertaking
over
recent
years
is
our
own
place.
K
Partnerships,
which
is
about
working
hand
in
hand
with
local
partners
and
the
sector
in
the
local
area,
to
build
that
capacity
and
that
confidence
understand
what
the
aspiration
and
ambition
is
and
look
at
how
we
can
work
together
in
order
to
support
that
in
some
way
shape
or
form.
It's
not
really
about
project
funding.
I
K
K
K
They
will
cover
the
whole
country.
We've
we've
done
16
so
far
to
have
completed.
Another
couple
are
about
to
complete
and
14
are
currently
live
and
will
continue
to
build
on
that
eventually,
we'll
have
covered
the
whole
of
the
geography
of
Scotland
and
and
I'm
absolutely
confident
that
we
will
see
the
picture
and
improve.
A
Just
coal
mining
shooting
the
inquiries,
the
committee's
inquiry,
and
today
the
one
thing
you
know
was
commented
that
if
the
police
partnerships,
which
have
been
in
place
for
some
time,
we're
supposed
to
build
capacity
in
different
parts
of
Scotland,
so
that
you
would
see
regular
funding
going
to
organisations
in
those
parts
of
Scotland
and
that
didn't
happen
in
the
last
round,
but
I'm
pleased
series
saying
that
you're
pleased
that
it's
gonna
hurt,
you
believe
it
will
happen
in
future.
Yes,.
A
K
G
And
I've
just
get
two
brief
questions.
Two
brief
requests
for
reassurance
really.
The
first
is
around
the
issues
that
we
had
with
factual
inaccuracies
in
the
18
to
21
M
session.
In
the
the
last
session
we
had
on
their
spent
Thompson's,
then
the
interim
chair,
they
said
and
direct
response
to
my
question
on
this.
The
board
was
unaware
of
any
factual
inaccuracies.
G
Now
I've
since
been
informed
by
fire
exit
that
that
was
not
the
case
that
individual
board
members
we're
emailed
and
informed,
and
otherwise
informed
about
factual
inaccuracies
and
I'm,
not
asking
you
to
respond
or
update
on
mr.
Thompson's
question.
What
I'm
asking
for
is
reassurance
that
the
issues
with
factual
inaccuracies,
but
also
the
issue
of
organisations
feeling
that
they
were
unable
to
have
those
addressed
during
the
process
are
being
taken
into
consideration
and
the
process
that
you
know
how
going
forward.
Yes,.
K
I
would
give
you
that
assurance
I
mean
I,
think
we
take
the
feedback
very
seriously,
and
some
of
this
is
reflected
in
the
the
way
phil
article
evaluation,
I
think
just
to
be
absolutely
clear,
and
we
have
put
this
in
evidence
previously
at
the
end
of
August,
that
the
timing
of
that
exchange
in
the
previous
committee
evidence
session
was
a
certain
moment
in
time.
What
we've
subsequently
had
is
they
kind
of
ate
formal
complaint
process
investigations
that
looked
at
the
detail
of
all
of
this
and
in
two
instances
we
find
that
there
were.
K
We've
not
had
any
direct
follow-up
or
challenge
and
response
to
that,
but
in
the
event
of
all
of
those,
the
the
instances
of
complaint
those
organizations
were
recommended
for
support
anyway,
but
we
do
expect.
You
know
it's
really
important,
that
our
connect,
the
quality
of
the
work
that
we
do
is
transparent
and
accountable
and
can
be
explained
to
people
so
that
they've
got
full
trust
and
confidence
in
the
processes
that
we
run.
Whilst
they
might
not
always
agree
with
the
outcome
and
the
decision,
that's.
G
G
I'm
essentially
told
not
to
worry
about
it
because
they
were
getting
their
funding
anyway,
and
that
is
not
a
good
reason
to
cease
worrying
about
factual
inaccuracies
and
the
reports,
of
course,
I'm
quite
sure
they
and
others
were
delighted
to
receive
their
funding
in
the
end,
doesn't
resolve
the
issues
of
stress
anxiety,
everything
that
went
with
that
process,
so
that
does
need
address.
The
second
point
that
I'd,
like
some
reassurance
on,
is
in
the
recommendations
for
the
five
stages
and
the
process
going
forward.
There's
one
particular
recommendation.
K
You
know
we
would
never
in
inhibit
that
I
think
what
we're
on
a
journey
towards
is
greater
trust
and
confidence
in
the
work
that
we
do
and
a
greater
sense
of
transparency
and
accountability
that
can
stand
up
to
scrutiny.
That
must
be
at
the
heart
of
our
work
as
a
public
organization.
I
would
give
you
assurance
about
that.
This
is
an
independent
evaluation
and
I
want
to
be
clear
that
this
is
the
independent
findings
and
recommendations
of
that
analysis.
K
Work
that
has
been
undertaken
by
the
way
film
consultant
I
think
it's
important
to
record.
There's
been
a
time
of
anxiety
and
frustration
and
anger,
absolutely
see
and
hear
and
understand.
That
is
also
worth
recognizing.
There's
been
a
very
bruising
experience
for
the
staff
of
creative
Scotland
too,
if
you,
as
you
heard
from
Robert
early,
are
very
committed
to
what
they
do
and
and
do
that
with
such
diligence
and
care.
K
So
I'm
not
even
in
a
closed
setting,
which
in
itself
would
be
a
kind
of
problem,
I
think
we
we
have
a
kind
of
set
of
standards
in
in
the
way
that
we
operate,
which
I
think
we
would
want
to
ensure
was
going
to
reciprocate
it
and
with
the
sector
in
terms
of
trust
and
confidence,
but
also
can
a
mutual
respect
and
I
think.
Whilst
we
might
not
always
agree,
the
the
business
of
creative
Scotland
is
absolutely
delivered
by
people
and
people
are
at
the
heart
of
it.
G
F
Picking
up
on
the
the
Wakefield
report,
I
mean
it
is
a
pity.
I
have
to
say
that
it
was
not
available
in
the
public
domain
in
advance
of
your
coming
to
the
committee
today,
because
perhaps
we
could
have
had
a
more
meaningful
discussion
in
terms
of
the
the
specifics
that
are
in
that
report
that
we've
not
really
been
able
to
get
a
handle
on
thus
far,
but
doubtless
there
would
be
a
further
opportunity
when
the
report
is
finally
published.
F
Looking
at
the
the
the
sort
of
top-line
issues,
I
appreciate:
there's
all
these
reviews
ongoing
and
so
forth,
but
the
top-line
issues
I
mean
obviously
the
funding
situation
and
earlier
this
year
was
not
ideal
to
say
the
least
and
and
I
just
wonder
already.
You
know
absent
the
conclusions
of
these
ongoing
reviews.
What
what
top
line
license
do?
You
think
have
been
learned
by
great
of
Scotland
further
to
the
kind
of
situation
that
pertained.
K
The
lessons
to
be
learned
are
about
greater
engagement
and
transparency,
about
clearer
descriptions
of
what
and
why
and
how
we
work.
All
of
these
will
be
important
conversations
as
part
of
the
reviews
that
we
have
with
people
I,
think
the
organisation,
in
the
brief
that
the
breadth
of
the
debrief
that
holds
is
a
risk
of
tying
itself
in
north
trying
to
be
all
things
to
all
people,
all
of
the
time
and
I
think
I
think
I'd
glade
a
greater
sense
of
clarity
about
who
were
here
for
what
we're
here
for
and
how
we
do
it.
K
It
is
part
of
what
these
reviews
will
help
us
to
to
deliver.
I
have
to
say
that
also
part
of
this
equation
is
that
we
know,
and
it's
very
unsatisfying
from
our
perspective
to,
but
we
know
as
part
of
all
of
this
equation,
that
process
we
have
a
very
supportive
Scottish
government
and
a
very
supportive
cabinet
secretary,
and
you
know
the
the
absolutely
understand
the
importance
of
culture.
Our
overall
budgets
are
are
in
themselves
limited
and
that's
always
going
to
be
the
case.
K
But
if
I
take
a
couple
of
examples,
open
project
funding,
we
were
only
able
to
support,
fluctuates
between
a
third
and
a
quarter
of
all
the
applications
that
they
come
forward.
We
could
support
many
many
more,
but
regular.
Funding
is
an
interesting
case
in
point
because
we
had
184
African
organizations.
K
160
of
them
were
recommended
for
support
to
the
value
of
one
hundred
and
forty
million
pints
121
that
we
ended
up.
Funding
could
have
been
supported
at
their
level
of
request,
123
million
points,
so
our
overall
budget,
which
comprises
both
grant
innate
and
the
National
Water
Day,
was
two
component
parts,
roughly
two-thirds
grant
in
aid
to
one-third
National
Lottery
the
grant
in
aid
part
of
it
represents
0.2
percent
of
the
overall
Scottish
government
budget.
F
Thankfully
I
mean
obviously
in
terms
of
faith,
this
year's
budget
resettlement
I
do
remember.
Colleagues
were
really
quite
pleased
indeed
that
this
tremendous
settlement
that
the
cabinet
secretary
funeral
Hislop
actually
managed
to
secure
I.
Think
probably
other
portfolios
were
looking
on
with
some
some
jealousy,
perhaps
at
this
fantastic
settlement
that
fearlessly
managed
to
secure
and
I
mean.
Obviously,
in
terms
of
resources.
Further
budgetary
discussions
will
take
place.
F
I
guess
that
one
always
has
to
be
confident
in
terms
of
allocation
of
money,
that
is
the
public
money,
taxpayers
money
that
it
is
well
spent,
and
that
brings
us
back
to
your
organizational
review,
ensuring
that
you
do
everything
that
you
can
to
ensure
that
any
public
money
you
get
is
going
to
be
properly
spent
and
discharge
your
obligations
to
the
public
at
large
in
terms
of
the
reviews,
what
were
the
specific
remus
of
these
reviews
be
in
the
public
domain,
so
the
public
can
understand
what
exactly
the
review
is
tasked
to
do.
Yes,.
K
B
K
How
they're
intended
to
operate
timescales
as
we
go
through
them
and
then
ongoing
kind
of
progress
against
them
so
because
they
are
complementary
on
the
dovetail
and
I
can
appreciate
that.
That's
quite
a
complex
equation
to
understand,
if
you
know
in
the
heart
of
it
like,
we
are
so
we'll
ensure
that
we're
producing
as
effective
communications
as
possible
on.
K
A
K
I
was
just
on
on
budget
point.
You
know,
I
said
it's
part
of
my
answer.
We
absolutely
applaud
the
Scottish
Government
and
the
the
cabinet
secretary
for
the
support
that
we've
experienced,
and
it
was
a
settlement
that
we
were
very
much
that
we
very
much
welcome
still
and
part
of
that
was
around
the
the
drop
and
challenges
to
the
National
Lottery
income.
What
I'm
saying,
though,
is
the
in
constrained
budgets,
which
there
will
always
be.
K
K
That's
quite
a
significant
component
of
available
resources
through
that
one
funding
stream,
421
organisations,
and
it
therefore
limits
the
remainder
of
grant-in-aid
in
terms
what
was
possible
with
them,
but
also
through
his
emphasis
onto
the
National
Lottery
income
stream,
which
we've
got,
which
is
around
a
third
of
our
budget,
which
has
continued
to
be
on
the
challenge,
although
is,
as
can
a
stabilizing
night,
but
that
that
has
dropped.
Nearly
a
quarter
in
the
last
four
years-
and
this
is
where
the
the
cabinet
secretary
in
the
Scottish
Government,
were
able
to
address
them.
K
But
you
know
that
challenge
remains
very
life
for
us
in
terms
of
the
national
water
perspective
him,
and
we
were
working
very
hard
with
the
wider
National
Lottery
family,
which
is
all
the
distributor's
across
the
UK
and
with
Camelot,
the
the
National
Lottery
operator
and
with
DCMS
and
the
gambling
Commission
to
ensure
that
the
importance
and
value
of
the
National
Lottery
today
the
life
of
the
nation
is,
is
pre
preeminent,
so
that
converts
those
good
causes
into
ticket
sales
which
fall
back
into
the
distribution
of
funding
that
is
available
to
us.
Okay,.
H
So
all
of
this
situation
that
you
find
yourself
then
and
by
putting
forward
the
policies
and
by
putting
forward
some
of
the
procedures
you
want
to
enhance
that
may
alleviate
that.
But
in
the
long
term
you
you,
you
have
to
rebuild
that
confidence
to
ensure
that
there's
the
opposition,
and
so
so
can
I
ask
in
doing
all
of
that.
We've
talked
about
the
budget
and
resources
being
available
and
you're
having
to
do
as
everyone
else
says.
Yes,
more,
with
less
run
resources
than
you
would
want.
K
Think
we
should,
having
acknowledged
all
of
that,
as
we
have
done
earlier.
I
think
we
should
also
recognize
it
was
mentioned
in
in
Robert's
opening
remarks
that
the
organization
is
not
fundamentally
broken.
There
are
many
positive
things,
organization
continues
to
support
and
enable
and
deliver,
and
we
have
many
positive
relationships
with
people
in
the
sector
and
be
these
individuals
or
organizations,
or
indeed
with
partners
and
stakeholders.
I
think
I
mentioned
earlier.
The
at
the
heart
of
this
really
is
the
human
relationships
that
we
have
with
people.
It's
fundamental.
K
We
have
very
many
positive
relationships
and,
as
I've
said,
and
if
we
can
continue
to
ensure
that
we
are
connected
with
people
across
the
geography
of
Scotland
hearing
their
concerns,
but
also
their
their
ambitions
and
on
the
altercation,
some
positive
feedback.
It
helps
inform
how
we
how
we
work,
what
our
priorities
are
and
how
we
can
explain
and
account
for
ourselves,
but
also
helps
us
refine
our
processes
and
so
on,
to
ensure
that
we
are
continuously
learning
and
improving
as
we
as
we
go.
K
What
these
reviews
are
about
are
kind
of
taking
quite
a
comprehensive
stalk
of
the
situation
across
a
whole
range
of
areas
to
to
reset
the
organization.
But
that's
not
you
know,
that's
not
a
blank
sheet
of
paper
and
I
wouldn't
want
us
to
to
overlook
the
fact
that
we
do
have
some
very
positive
things
that
we're
doing,
but
at
the
heart
of
it
are
people
and
I
think
being
engaged
with
people
on
discussion
and
debate
and
dialogue
and
and
so
on.
As
is
very
important
to
us
and
the.
H
So
in
doing
all
of
that,
and
you've
touched
on
partnership
working
today
and
I.
Think
that
is
very
crucial
to
ensuring
that
you
have
the
success
that
you're
trying
to
achieve,
but
there,
but
there
will
be-
and
there
are,
as
we've
already
seen,
locations
across
the
country
that
are
stifled
from
that
debate
and
from
that
risk,
because
they
do
not
have
the
opportunities
and
the
wherewithal.
For
that
to
happen.
H
You
have
a
key
role
to
it,
ensure
that
that
does
no
you
break
down
some
of
those
barriers
and
that
you
do
give
them
the
chance
to
develop
and
progress
and
and
and
see
their
ambitions
being
realized.
But
that
that
is
a
very
difficult
thing
to
achieve
in
a
very
short
space
of
time.
So
can
I
ask
when
you
do
have
these
reviews?
H
K
We
are
working
together
with
the
relevant
people
on
partners
in
individual
areas
in
a
respectful
way.
There
is
empowering
in
that
local
area
of
those
individuals
and
organisations,
and
we
find
opportunities
to
understand
where
we
might
be
able
to
provide
development,
support
through
expertise
and
knowledge
that
we
hold
or
or
the
ability
to
invest
through
some
funding,
if
that's
appropriate,
as
well
as
in
partnership
with
those
in
the
local
area.
K
J
The
the
youth
is
very,
very
important
and
I
think
we
are
doing
a
huge
thing
with
time
to
shine
and
our
national
youth
advisory
group,
where
we're
trying
to
get
the
young
from
sort
of
sixteen
upwards
to
really
engage
and
and
again
touching
on
your
point.
It's
often
if
you
can
get
the
youth
involved
at
a
very
early
age
that
you
have
this
potential
transformational
potential,
that's
a
very,
very
important
part
of
what
we're
doing
as
well.
Thank.
A
You
very
much
just
pick
up
on
him
when
Alexander
Stewart
was
talking
about
your
reviews
and
I.
Do
appreciate
that
you've
said
that
you
will
keep
the
committee
informed.
I
think
it
would
be
useful
in
the
first
instance
to
you
in
writing
and
to
tell
the
committee
what
the
the
sequence
and
what
the
the
timetable
of
the
different
reviews
is,
because
we've
got
wave
Hill
and
today
for
first
then
understand
this.
The
organization
review,
there's
a
review
and
to
open
project
and
then
there's
a
a
wider
of
you
until
funding
streams.
A
K
Not
happy
to
take
that
away
as
an
action
and
what
I
can
try
and
simplify
it
just
now
in
this
moment
as
to
say
that
there
are
three
strands
to
it.
One
is
a
very
organized
strategic
review,
which
is
about
our
purpose
and
our
priority.
So
what
are
we
here
for?
The
second
is
about
our
funding
model
as
a
whole.
So
that's
all
our
routes
to
funding
and
the
third
one
is
about
organizational
development,
which
is
about
culture
and
values
and
behaviors
and
systems,
structures
and
processes.
So
that's
that's.
A
K
A
K
E
E
New,
you
think
you'll
spend
more
time
writing
to
committed.
You
will
be
doing
all
these
reviews.
Mr.
Munroe
actually
wanted
to
ask
about
and
to
reflect
on
last
year,
because
on
that
on
the
funding,
because,
by
definition,
when
you
award
my
yards
bodies,
there
are
some
who
don't
get
it
so
they're
winners
and
losers.
The
losers,
as
we
know
last
year,
quite
understandably,
kicked
up
about
that
as
inevitably
and
in
fairly
they
would
they
got
in
touch
to
the
MSP
MSPs
race
of
empowerment.
E
First
muscles
questions,
the
whole
works,
so
I
guess
my
question
is
and
then
you
get
pressured
or
doubt
you
get
the
heavy
call
from
the
from
the
cabinet
secretary.
You
get
some
all
servants
flowing
up
from
the
sponsor
Department,
seeing
lots
of
parliamentary
pressure
to
change
your
position,
so
I
guess.
My
question
is
the
robustness
of
your
review
on
funding
as
to
how
your
bill
to
ensure
that,
when
that
happens
in
a
futures
are
notably
it
will
the
organization
can
say:
look
we
have
done
this
absolutely
transparent
in
clearly
and
we
have
absolute
confidence.
E
We've
made
the
right
decisions
on
allocating
funds
to
the
following
organizations,
and,
yes,
those
didn't
get
it.
So
we're
really
saves
you
cabinet
secretary,
please
don't
second-guess
us
is
that
what
you're
trying
to
achieve
through
the
review
you've
been
describing
to
my
colleagues
this
morning?
Yes,.
K
You
know,
the
cabinet
secretary
is
very
clear
that
you
know
she's
no
interfering
but
does
want
to
ensure
that
our
organization
can
stand
up
in
a
very
transparent
and
accountable
way
to
the
scrutiny
that
inevitably
arises
on
on
the
process
that
we
run.
So
what
we're
endeavoring
to
do
is
to
get
a
much
stronger
position
where
there
is
food,
trust
and
confidence
in
those
processes
in
in
the
eyes
of
the
applicant
organizations
of
this
sector,
more
likely
others.
E
But
that's
fine
as
part
of
that.
Therefore,
presumably
you'd
look
to
the
cabinet
secretary
government
to
make
clear
that
when
you've
done
your
review
and
the
government
by
definition,
is
comfortable
with
that
I.
Take
all
the
conveners
points
about
writing
as
a
committee
and
making
sure
the
committee's
are
consulted,
but
that,
in
effect
you
need
government
to
say
look.
This
is
our
body
they're
responsible
for
making
funding
allocation,
so
arts
bodies
we
expected
to
get
on
with
that,
and
we
trust
them
to
do
that.
Yes,.
E
And
that's
the
initial
I'm
sure
you've
shared
your
thinking
about
these
reviews
with
the
government
and
have
those
discussions
already
they
already
I.
Take
it
accepting
that
principle
that
it's
not
their
job
to
interfere
with
your
operational
budget,
operational
decisions
over
funding
different
all
Duty.
Yes,.
A
D
Thank
you
can
be
enough
good
morning,
gentlemen,
just
a
couple
of
questions
regarding
the
screen
Scotland
and
just
that
the
first
thing
actually
to
underpin
the
deck
of
us.
There
I
think
the
website
is
very
effective.
I
think
it's
also
very
easy
to
navigate
and
but
just
I
wanted
to.
They're
gonna
meet
your
vehement
Ofsted
having
a
number
of
criticisms
in
the
past,
but
I
think
that's,
actually
that's
not
a
very
useful
tool.
H
D
That
not
just
you
know
some
type
of
temporary
facility
or
something
that's
just
being
converted
by
an
actual
purpose-built,
attractive,
studio,
location,
no
officer,
the
issue,
the
garden
paint
one
says
is
still
underway,
as
we
know,
but
B
can
you
provide
further
information
in
terms
of
you
know
where
we
actually
are
with
with
any
new
investment
to
come
in
to
score
from
the
via
some
type
of
a
new
studio.
So.
K
On
on
the
studio,
you'll
seen
from
a
written
evidence
that
we
were
pleased
of
secured
in
principle,
agreement
from
the
cabinet
secretary
on
behalf
of
the
Scottish
governor
to
the
business
case
that
we
had
submitted
in
June.
That
business
case
just
to
be
absolutely
clear,
is
a
very
comprehensive
technical
document
that
we
were
required
to
undertake
in
accordance
with
the
Treasury
green
book
appraisal,
which
covers
our
canna
structure.
The
approach
in
that
business
case
to
cover
areas
of
strategy
or
finance
and
economics
and
risk,
and
so
on.
K
Since
then,
we
as
part
of
that
approval
had
further
technical
work
requested
to
be
undertaken,
which
we've
done
over
the
course
of
the
summer
and
in
parallel
to
that,
we've
been
gearing
up
towards
being
able
to
go,
live
with
the
proposition.
That's
been
approved
in
principle
by
the
by
the
Scottish
Government.
It's
hard
to
say
anymore,
about
the
detail
of
that.
K
This
is
working
on
with
the
partners
as
an
absolute
recognition
of
that
it's
one
of
the
central
priorities
for
us
and
key
focus
that
we've
been
working
on.
We've
never
been
so
advanced
in
terms
of
the
the
point
of
which
we
were
no
art
in
comparison
to
previous
iterations
of
the
studio
infrastructure.
Because
you
remember
in
2014-15,
we
ran
the
tender
process
with
Scottish
Enterprise
that
was
non
site-specific,
but
also
took
place
in
a
completely
different
landscape
in
context.
K
So
the
technical
position
on
the
studio
case
and
and
so
on
is
very
advanced
that
what
I'm
highlighting
is
that
the
set
of
conditions
in
which
we're
about
to
embark
on
an
actual
tender
process,
to
name
a
site
and
location,
to
attract
a
private
sector
operator
to
be
the
operational
partner
to
deliver
it
in
partnership
with
the
public
sector,
is
within
the
context
of
screen
Scotland.
Where
we've
got
enhanced
funding,
we've
got
an
enhanced
screen,
commissioned
and
location
service,
enhance,
screen,
skills
and
expertise
and
relationships
with
the
sector
and
so
on.
K
What
we're
focused
on
is
a
specific
proposition,
but
it
absolutely
is
the
case
that
that
will
sit
amongst
other
studio
offers
within
Scotland,
and
we
know
and
there's
agreement
on
the
fact
that
Scotland
can
sustain
more
than
one
studio
operation.
What
we
are
focused
on
is
this
single
proposition,
but
that's
complementary
to
Ward
Park,
the
pyramids,
and
indeed
Pentland
and
clearly
they're
considering
their
position
in
that
regard.
But
but
there
are
beyond
even
those
there
are
other
contemporary
facilities
that
there's
some
productions
find
more
favorable.
D
Versus
before
it
again
last
week,
just
in
terms
of
actual
locations,
no
doubt
screen
Scotland
well
consider
somewhere
like
Glasgow
Edinburgh
as
the
as
a
primary
location
for
for
a
new
studio
and
I
can
understand
why,
in
terms
of
catchment
in
terms
of
the
Baker
City
offerings,
but
that
is
also
a
world
outside
of
the
cities
in
Scotland
and
as
I
said
last
week
in
the
chamber,
I
think
that
is
a
there
would
be
a
welcome
attached
to
have
some
type
of
offer
and
and
replayed.
You
said
there
is
a
space
there.
D
A
C
Be
now
and
you
I'm
hoping
you
could
go
to
tell
maybe
a
bit
more
about
the
studio
proposals.
I
understand
you're
under
bushes
at
the
moment,
so
I
might
be
sensitive,
but
you've
described
as
a
tribe
or
Polito
would
comment
to
run
the
facility,
but
I
saw
unclear
about
how
they
is
it
going
to
be
purpose-built
and
with
who
pays
for
the
infrastructure
who
pays
for
the
building
of
the
facility.
The
is
that
men
are
you
looking
for
private
sources
for
that
as
well.
You
just.
K
And
I've
got
to
be
careful
in
terms
of
my
ability
to
fully
answer
that
question
at
this
point
in
time,
but
I'll
explain
how
and
why.
But
in
terms
of
what
I
can
say
now
the
issue
of
state
aid
has
been
raised
many
many
times.
There
are
two
key
steps
that
will
enable
us
to
address
and
manage
the
state
aid
issue
that
are
part
of
what
we're
doing
the
first
on
that
is
to
run
an
actual
tender
process.
K
B
K
Are
known
as
the
public
sector
solely
delivering
that
studio?
The
second
component
part
is
the
tender
itself
we'll
be
seeking
a
private
sector
interest
and
operator
to
partner
with
the
public
sector
in
order
to
deliver
that
studio
in
in
capital
and
physical
terms
and
then
go
on
to
operate
it
the
actual
nature
of
and
proportion
of,
the
public
private
sector
partnership.
There
will
depend
on
the
response
to
that
tender.
K
Those
two
combined
will
help
address
the
state
aid
issue,
so
in
due
course,
once
recruiter
once
we've
gone
through
the
tender
name,
the
site
location
and
can
secure
that
preferred
operator,
we
will
then
work
on
the
canonical
shade,
a
deal
that
will
understand.
They
can
add
nature
of
the
public
private
sector
arrangement
and
actually
the
government's
arrangements.
It
will
sit
alongside
that.
That's.
C
Helpful,
thank
you.
Can
I
just
ask
so
the
new
executive
director
for
skin
Scotland
when
we
did
the
inquiry
there
was
some
concerns
raised
that
that
rule
would
be
not
exclusive
for
screen.
I
think
you've,
given
a
commitment
that
it
will
initially
be,
but
I'm
not
sure
what
the
future
plans
for
that
executive
director.
All
those
so
I.
K
Absolutely
assure
ins
to
the
committee
again
Isabelle,
Davis
who's
very
firmly
in
Posner
and
very
firmly
focused
on
screen
will
continue
for
the
foreseeable
future.
We
will
take
stock
of
this
issue
as
part
of
the
organizational
development
review,
which
also
is
going
to
be
looking
at
structures
to
ensure
that,
as
Abele's
focus
remains
on
screen
the
additional
element
of
the
job
description
that
she
was
recruited
against.
A
G
Know
and
I
was
glad
to
hear
what
you
said
in
about
best
proposal
being
much
further
advanced
than
where
previous
ones
have
been
any
be
fair
to
say
that
as
much
as
since
the
herald
on
Sunday
a
couple
weeks
ago,
and
even
what
you
said
to
the
committee
previous
to
that,
there's
been
a
lot
of
enthusiasm
and
welcome
words
from
the
industry,
but
also
a
healthy
amount
of
skepticism,
because
there
are
a
number
of
people
who
feel
like
we
have
been
here
before.
We
have
heard
this
before
and
nothing
has
materialized.
G
So
what
I'd
be
interested
in
in
this
case
is
once
you're
at
the
point
where
you
can
go
public
with
a
specific
proposal.
Warrior
plans
for
industry
consultation,
not
with
those
who
will
be
submitting
in
the
tender
process,
but
with
those
in
the
wider
industry
who
obviously
have
a
key
stake
and
seeing
a
successful
site
being
actually
coming
into
fruition.
Specifically.
G
K
So
the
process
itself
will
procure
they
preferred
operator
that,
as
I
said,
to
clear
Baker
will
then
absolutely
both
the
arrangements
and
so
on.
I
think
that's
a
key
moment
where,
once
the
operator
is
is
known,
they
will
be
able
to
engage
directly
themselves
and
we
can
help
facilitate
that
to
understand
what
the
needs
and
expectations
of
the
the
sector
more
widely
are.
There's
a
lot
of
information
already
known,
and
a
lot
of
kind
of
ambition
and
expectation
is
already
known
and
understood
by
default,
and
this
actor
are
looking
for.
G
K
Will
facilitate
that
process?
Yes,
I
think
I
mean
in
reality
that's
hard
until
we
actually
get
to
that
point
there.
Knowing
who
the
operator
is,
you
know
we
won't
say
that
as
a
requirement
within
the
tender
per
se,
but
as
I
criterion,
if
you
like,
but
it
will
be
important
for
us
to
have
that
conversation
with
the
the
operator
and
due
course
to
ensure
that
that
takes
place.
Yes,
thank.
K
A
K
A
You
that's
great,
and
thank
you
very
much
for
that.
Just
wrap
up
another
couple
of
things
in
terms
of
of
the
screen
unit
you're
aware
of
this
committee
has
very
strong
view
that
we
should
have
a
standalone
screen
agency
and
we'll
continue
to
monitor
the
progress
of
that
and
continue
to
make
that
case.
A
A
K
There
was
two
key
specific
targeted
and
business
development
support
initiatives
in
partnership
with
Scottish
Enterprise,
our
focus
and
which
is
about
support
for
production
companies
across
a
range
of
skills
and
expertise,
and
the
program
called
deep,
which
is
about
individual
producers
and
partnership
with
the
BBC
and
channel
4,
to
connect
them
with
production,
opportunities
and
commissioning
of
work
and
so
on.
In
many
regards
they
are
our
pilots
and
they
are
being
evaluated
in
due
course.
The
focus
project
is
two-year
pilot.
K
The
deep
project
is
three
years
and
they're
scalable,
so
these
are
very
targeted,
live
current,
specific
business
development
opportunities.
They
exist
at
the
moment
that
so
far
are
proving
positive
for
those
that
are
engaging
with
them
in
a
wider
sense.
What
we're
also
doing
we're
recruiting
business
development
specialists
within
this
green
Scotland
team?
K
That's
in
this
phase,
three
jobs
that
were
now
embarking
on
and
they
will
be
there
as
the
the
kind
of
fulcrum
of
the
business
development
support
across
the
partnership
which
is
being
discussed
in
the
wider
sense
across
all
five
partners,
but
also
involving
the
business
gateway
in
terms
of
the
offer
across
the
whole
of
the
32
local
authorities,
and
that's
not
just
about
screen.
That's
also
about
the
wider
creative
industries,
84,000
people
employed
in
the
creative
industries
in
Scotland
and
15,000
businesses.
K
K
Whilst
we
continue
to
look
at
the
wider
partnership
with
the
business
gateway
to
strengthen
its
offer
to
ensure
that
it's
delivering
effectively
for
creative
businesses
to
again
we'll
be
happy
to
keep
people
up
to
date
on
progress
as
we
go
through
that
because,
as
fundamentally
one
of
those
planks
within
the
the
plan
for
screen
Scotland
and
a
five-year
plan
that
we've
set
out
and
we'll
communicate
on
that
in
due
course.
But
there's
already
measures
in
place
as
I
say
that
that
people
can
access
and
and
we'll
be
happy
to
get
to
it.
K
It's
a
very
short
and
quick
answer
to
that.
Anyway,
again
as
part
of
recruitment,
we've
got
a
specialist
recruited
into
the
organization
to
enhance
our
knowledge
and
research
team
who
is
going
to
be
helping
to
shape
the
next
steps
on
actually
how
we
improve
that
data
and
data
hub
proposition.
That
was
in
the
business
case
for
the
Green
Square
and
five-year
plan.
So
again
we'll
be
happy
to
report,
but.
K
K
In
some
way,
shape
or
form,
I
think
we
need
to
see
what
their
their
own
reflections
on
that
are
with
with
the
partners
about
what
the
actual
form
of
that
is.
But
absolutely
the
enhancement
of
data
capture,
gathering
and
analysis
and
playing
that
back
out
is
an
important
strand
of
the
work
that
we're
doing
expectation.
A
In
the
sector
list
that
there
would
be
a
dedicated
table
for
screen,
but
I'm
aware
that
this
is,
there
was
a
very
long
and
quiet
E
in
a
wheaty
report,
and
we
haven't
really
had
the
time
I
feel
to
can
really
dig
into
the
session
but
I'm.
The
committee
has
expressed
a
desire
to
continue
to
monitor
progress
and
screen
and
I'm,
not
I
will
be
speaking
to
you
again
about
it
in
the
future.
Thank
you
very
much
for
coming
to
give
evidence
to
us
today
and
we
shall
know
and
cause
I'm
going
to
private
session.