►
Description
Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee
A
A
We'll
move
straight
to
questions,
and
I
will
begin
with
the
first
question
and
then
be
followed
by
claire
baker.
We'll
all
have
two
questions
and
if
there's
time
I
will
bring
in
members
at
the
end
for
supplementary
questions,
I'm
afraid
that's
just
because
of
the
format
of
the
online
meeting.
So
can
I
say
to
the
panel
welcome
this
morning.
Thank
you
for
joining
us
and
thank
you
for
your
very
detailed
written
submissions,
which
were
very
helpful.
B
Well,
I
think
you
know
the
committee,
as
as
people
who
are
involved
in
politics
will
be
aware
of
the
sort
of
global
pressures
on
on
on
journalism
in
recent
years.
The
kind
of
ownership
models
which
used
to
deliver
big
profits,
which
could
support
a
huge
range
of
different,
realistic
activities.
Just
no
longer
do
that,
and
you
only
need
to
look
at
the
sort
of
dwindling
size
and
the
dwindling
range
of
coverage
that
scotland's
two
universal
commons
national
papers
they
held
and
the
scotsman
are,
are
able
to
provide.
B
Again
as
politicians,
everyone
on
the
committee
will
be
aware
of
the
changes
that
have
swept
through
local
and
journalism
of
the
fact
that
most
local
newspapers,
traditional
titles,
are
now
owned
by
big
media
players
and
which
again
have
been
through
round
after
round
after
round
of
cost
cutting
and
in
recent
decades,
and
with
the
result
that
a
lot
of
local
newspapers
are
now
not
really
locally
produced
at
all.
You
know
they
they
they
have.
B
And
there
are
many
studies
which
demonstrate
the
consequences
of
that
for
kind
of
accountability,
for
knowledge
of
what's
going
on
in
the
local
area
and
for
people's
perceptions
of
their
local
area,
because,
obviously,
if
you're
getting
nothing
but
sort
of
click,
bait
sensational
headlines
and
controls
from
some
office,
far
away
you're,
not
really
getting
a
whole
picture
of
what's
going
on
in
your
community.
But
I
think
most
members
of
the
committee
will
be
aware
of
that
in
terms
of
the
specifics
of
the
scottish
situation.
I
think
I've
said
at
national
level.
B
It's
particularly
competitive
and-
and
I
think
that
that
has
led
us
into
a
situation
where
you
know
we
could
be
teetering
towards
the
sort
of
welsh
position
where
there
aren't
really
on
national
media
in
in
scotland,
or
at
least
they
exist
on
on
a
relatively
small
scale
or
weekly
magazines
and
all
the
rest
of
it.
And
of
course,
media
has
been
absolutely
key
throughout
the
whole
of
the
modern
era
in
shaping
people's
perception
of
who
they
are.
B
Where
scots
have
traditionally
and
played
a
big
role
and-
and
you
know
the
loss
of
that
over
the
last
generation.
The
loss
of
that
kind
of
momentum
and
economic
power
behind
scottish
journalism
is
something
that
affects
the
quality
of
life
here.
Immensely
and
people's
perception
and
of
of
of
of
of
what
scotland
is
and
what
it
could
be
and
of
how
its
debates
are
being
conducted
and
also
the
plurality
of
that
I
mean.
Of
course,
we've
still
got
the
bbc,
but
the
more
voices
there
can
be.
B
The
better,
obviously
and
the
bbc
has
its
own
issues.
So
there
are
perfect
problems
facing
scotland
and
what
our
nuj
branch
has
been
trying
to
do
is
to
take
the
nug's
own
recovery
plan
for
the
the
media
in
the
uk
and
ireland.
The
nuj
covers
both
the
uk
and
ireland
and
and
which
was
published
in
april
and
to
try
and
work
out
some
specific
ways.
B
So
and
we've
made
various
proposals
on
that
which
members
will
be
able
to
see
in
the
submission
and
that
we've
made
and
we're
hoping
that
at
a
modest
level,
these
could
begin
to
provide
a
focus
not
only
for
some
serious
assistance
to
public
interest
journalism
in
scotland
and
but
also
for
a
kind
of
national
debate
and
awareness
of
the
importance
of
good
journalism
and
sustaining
a
community
and
of
of
of
how
that
can
be
further
developed.
And
you
know,
through
education
and
and
various
other
means,
as
well
as
direct
support
for
journalism.
A
Thanks
very
much
for
that
and
I'm
sure
that
we'll
go
into
the
detail
of
some
of
your
proposed
solutions
later
on.
Can
I
can
I
just
turn
to
eamon
and
and
peter
joyce
mentioned
quality
journalism
on
a
number
of
occasions
and
its
importance
and
you've
addressed
that
in
your
submissions
and
for
you
know
the
general
public
out
there.
How
does
one
distinguish
quality
journalism
from
the
kind
of
content
that,
like
people
can
access
freely
and
on
the
internet
at
the
moment?
C
C
What's
not
a
good
piece
of
journalism,
even
in
a
pluralistic
market
like
what
we
have
in
the
united
kingdom
and
indeed
in
scotland,
it's
very
difficult
for
people,
sometimes
to
tell
the
difference
between
what
looks
like
a
piece
of
journalism
and
what
an
actual
fact
is
a
piece
of
propaganda.
It's
a
biased
information
by
people
who
are
just
popping
in
and
out
for
their
own
various
reasons.
C
So
you
want
to
be
in
a
society
which
is
free
to
ask
difficult
questions
which
is
free
to
hold
the
powerful
account,
which
is
also
about
giving
a
voice
to
people
who
don't
have
a
voice
and
going
back
to
them
and
saying
here's
what
we
did
and
explaining
to
them.
The
difference
between
that
and
completely
unmediated,
you
know,
simply
just
put
a
camera
somewhere
lock
off
and
let
people
make
their
own
minds
up.
It's
not
as
simple
as.
D
Is
that
better
sorry,
I
think
I
might
have
gone
too
quickly.
I
have
a
tendency
to
do
that.
Yeah.
I
think
what
was
interesting.
The
phrase
that
was
used
by
you,
john
earlier
on
by
joyce,
was
public
interest.
I
think
public
interest
is
quite
a
useful
frame
for
thinking
about
quality
and
thinking
about
what
kind
of
journals
we
want
to
see.
You
know
and
part
of
that
can
also
be
original
journalism.
D
D
We'll
often
just
not
tell
that
many
stories
full
stop,
so
there's
a
need
for
what
you
want
to
call
public
interest,
journalism,
original
journalism
and
often
the
only
way
you
can
do
that
or
to
start
doing
something
like
that
is
through
some
mark
of
quality.
It's
about
actually
going
out
and
doing
original
reporting
actually
going
out
and
talking
to
news
sources
actually
telling
stories
that
haven't
been
told
before,
and
that's
really
vital
as
part
of
some
sort
of
it's
got
two
really
important
functions.
D
One
is
in
terms
of
bringing
stories
out
and
telling
things
that
we
wouldn't
know
about
so
one
example.
The
uk
level
was
the
windrush
scandal
recently
if
it
wasn't
for
the
journalism
of
someone
like
the
media
gentleman
of
the
guardian
and
a
newspaper
and
a
platform
that
wanted
to
highlight
something:
that's
not
going
to
get
a
huge
amount
of
clicks
to
start
with.
That
is
not
the
sort
of
stuff
that
gets
generates
large
traffic,
at
least
the
beginning
of
those
sorts
of
stories.
So
you
have
to
help
incentivize
people
to
do
that
kind
of
work.
D
D
It
is
the
importance
of
journalism
as
a
tool
to
tell
stories
that
will
kind
of
bridge
you
know
without
being
too
cliched
about
it
bridge
divides,
let
people
understand
and
see
common
worlds
between
themselves,
and
I
think
we're
getting
to
a
point
in
scotland
where
we're
not.
We
don't
have
as
much
of
that
content
as
we
had
15
or
20
years
ago.
D
We
nowhere
near
enough,
but
especially
in
printing
online,
and
that
I
think,
makes
it
harder
and
harder
for
people
to
see
lived,
shared
lived
experiences,
and
some
of
that
you
know-
and
I
think
that's
a
really
really
important
thing.
It's
about
helping
you
know
say
I'm
very
I'm
the
chair
of
the
ferris.
We
do
a
lot
of
stuff,
we'll
do
a
lot
of
stories
on
marginalized
communities,
whether
it's
a
homeless,
whether
it's
people,
asylum
seekers,
people
like
that,
and
we
only
really.
You
know.
Those
stories
only
often
come
up
as
a
big
national
story.
D
When
something
terrible
happens,
like
happened
in
glasgow
during
the
summer,
but
it's
so
important
to
have
reporters
like
we
have
telling
those
stories
in
rome,
so
you
can
actually
understand
that
the
meant
at
least
when
some
of
those
stories
happen,
there's
context
there
that
people
can
then
understand.
So
it
doesn't
just
happen
in
a
vacuum
and
if
we
hadn't
been
there
photos
like
us,
hadn't
been
there
that
the
tragedy
happened
in
glasgow
in
the
summer
would
have
just
been
easily
reported
without
any
context
whatsoever
of
the
history
on
issues
around
asylum
seeking
in
glasgow.
D
That's
just
one
example,
so
I
think
there's
a
series
of
reasons
about
why
policy
journalism
needs
to
be
embedded
and
supported
and
why
it
doesn't
always
make
sense
for
news
organizations
and
straighten
times
of
straight
straighten
bottom
lines
and
shareholders.
Looking
for
quick
returns
is
always
the
case
to
do
that.
A
B
B
At
the
time
I
mean
the
johnson
press
was,
was
just
sort
of
making
across
the
board
and
and
pay
cuts
and
all
the
rest
of
it
in
anticipation
of
of
of
tremendous
trouble.
So
in
that
sense
I
think
some
areas
of
advertising
revenue,
particularly
to
do
with
the
areas
that
we
all
know,
have
done
well
in
the
pandemic,
and
you
know
such
as
you
know,
and
sort
of
various
forms
of
sort
of
on
line
and
and
and
delivery
fees
have
actually
held
up
better
and
than
was
anticipated.
B
But
I
think
and
listening
to
what's
being
said
by
our
staff
at
the
nuj
office
in
glasgow,
who
I
know
have
given
evidence
to
this
committee
before
and
could
probably
give
you
more
detail
on
this.
I
think
the
great
fear
is
that,
once
once
the
winter
sets
in
once,
the
furlough
support
that
many
advertisers
and
so
on
have
have
enjoyed,
begins
to
fade
away.
Then
there
will
be
another
round
of
sort
of
mass
redundancies
among
scottish
journalists.
B
These
are
already
being
planned
and
discussed
the
unions
already
in
there
trying
to
negotiate
the
terms
of
them,
and
you
know
given
how
stripped
down
and
how
short
of
staff
compared
with
to
compared
with
a
couple
of
decades
ago.
Most
journalistic
operations
in
scotland
are
the
prospect
of
another
round
of
redundancies.
This
winter
is
a
particularly
alarming
one,
and
and
also
just
in
terms
of
the
sort
of
situation
we're
facing.
B
The
idea
of
having
less
journalism
and
less
investment
in
journalism
rather
than
more,
is
really
quite
a
frightening
one
in
this
circumstance,
so
I
think,
and
in
one
sense
some
areas
of
advertising
revenue
have
held
up
better
than
was
hoped,
but
in
another
sense-
and
there
is
every
sign
that
most
of
the
big
players
in
commercial
journalism
are
going
to
be
using
this
opportunity
to
make
yet
more
redundancies,
which
is
you
know,
a
really
frightening
prospect.
In
terms
of
the
the
quality
and
range
of
scottish
journalism,.
F
D
Yes,
yes,
so,
unlike
kind
of
traditional
newspapers
or
we
are
moving
towards
it.
The
fairest
is
a
member-owned
cooperative
with
over
600
1600
paying
members.
So
what
that
means
is
everybody
who
joins
affair
gets
staked
in
affairs
and
our
journalism
is
supported
both
by
paying
members
and
philanthropic
grounds,
and
some
of
our
journalism
is
also
supported
by
tie-ins
with
newspapers.
D
So
there's
an
element
in
which
we
are
vulnerable
to
changes
in
the
newspaper
industry,
both
in
terms
of
like
being
able
to
collaborate
for
financial
for
financially
wish
traditional
media
outlets,
but
also
there's
a
there.
Is
that
issue
where,
if
people's
incomes
in
general
are
being
squeezed,
it
makes
it
more
difficult
for
organizations
like
the
pharisee
and
open
democracy
or
work
for
as
well
to
bring
in
revenue
from
subscribers.
D
So
I
think-
and
I
think
that
partly
reflects
there
is
also
a
bit
of
a
mood,
or
at
least
you've
seen
it
actually
in
some
newspapers
like
there's
a
very
interesting
model
in
one
of
the
swedish
newspapers
circulation
took
about
25
percent
of
subscription
rates,
go
for
25
and
actually
quite
a
lot
of
paywall
newspapers.
Have
they
actually
had
a
uptick
in
sales?
The
problem
is
actually
that
advertising
has
gone
down,
so
I
think
there
is
people
do
want.
I
think
quality
journalism
and
quality
media.
D
They
can
trust
more
than
ever
in
the
current
climate.
Where
there's
a
lot
of
you
know,
it
is
a
lot
of
conspiracy.
Thinking
going
on.
There's
a
lot
of
you
know
falls
that
spread
on
him
from
and
misinformation
and
disinformation.
So
I
do
think
readers
do
want
sources
of
information.
They
can
really
trust.
The
challenge
is
that
the
existing
architecture
of
for-profit
journalism
based
on
advertising
doesn't
really
isn't
sustaining.
It
doesn't
sustain
it
anymore,
but
for
people
like
the
deferential
democracy,
I
think
we've
seen
we
have.
D
We
haven't
grown
massively
as
much
as
we'd
like
in
this
period,
but
we
haven't
retrenched,
because
a
lot
of
our
funding
is
already
baked
in
for
the
longer
term.
I
guess
the
concern
for
someone
for
for
us
is
that
you
know,
as
people's
income
becomes
more
stretched.
How
will
that
affect
us,
but
also-
and
we
rely
on
philanthropic
grants
as
well
for
to
help
with
our
funding
what
will
happen
to
philanthropic
organizations?
You
know
if
we
go
into
a
real
and
fair
market.
D
If
we,
if
we
see
the
type
of
global
recession,
we
saw
in
the
wake
of
2008
financial
crisis,
that
would
make
it
more
difficult
and
that's
one
of
the
reasons
I
talked
to
my
submission
about
the
importance
of
making
journalism
a
public
interest
journalism,
a
charitable
good,
which
is
a
quite
a
free
thing.
Scotland
could
do
and
it
would
echo
other
countries
like
america
and
it
would
make
it
much
easier
for
new
organizations.
F
Thank
you
as
a
second
question,
as
I
follow
on
to
that
and
maybe
even
want
to
talk
about
and
the
importance
of
advertising
revenue.
Both
the
previous
speakers
have
talked
about
the
decline
in
advertising
revenue
during
this
period
is
that
the
model
and
and
peter's
talked
about
a
different
type
of
model.
Where
do
you
think
journalism
if
it's
to
be
sustainable
in
scotland
should
be
heading
and
who
and
in
terms
of
advertising
revenue?
F
C
Well,
I
think
the
first
thing
is
if
they
would
commit
to
actually
advertise
in
some
of
the
more
needy
papers
and
publishing
groups
that
are
actually
trying
to
innovate
and
trying
to
come
up
with
a
new
way
of
doing
business.
That
would
be
helpful.
First
of
all,
the
ring
pens
fairly
advertised
to
be
committed
to
local
tests
and
certain
government
adverts
and
so
on,
which
sometimes
can
disappear
down
rabbit
holes.
They
should
put
them
in
strategic
strategically
aimed
places,
but
we
just
want
to
go
back
just
a
bit.
C
If
I
may,
to
some
of
the
points
there
that
both
poison
peter
raised,
one
of
the
things
that's
often
not
looked
at
is
the
fact
that
there
are
newspaper
right
now
in
the
most
difficult
of
markets
which
are
doing
really
well.
For
example,
the
new
york
times
is
a
company
which
completely
turned
itself
around.
In
the
last
five
to
six
years,
it
published
a
report
in
2014.
C
It
was
leaked
to
me
before
it
was
actually
made
public
and
it
was
called
the
innovation
report
which
they
generated
internally,
where
they
really
looked
at
themselves
in
a
hard
hard
way
and
said
we
need
to
change.
We
need
to
turn
this
battleship
around
in
the
ocean
fast
or
we're
going
down
the
tubes,
and
they
did
that,
and
they
did
it
very
well
and
they've
gone
into
very
good
profits
with
the
subscription
model.
C
They
have
a
loyal
and
growing
readership,
and
a
lot
of
it
is
based
around
the
two
points
that
both
joyce
and
peter
made
and
which
I
was
alluding
to
in
my
opening
statement,
which
was
the
notion
of
original
journalism,
investigative
terminals
of
public
interest
journalism.
That's
what
people
want
we're
in
a
very
strange
position
right
now
we're
a
nationwide
scotland,
which
has
got
an
incredibly
engaged
critical
thinking,
a
news
consult
consuming
audience
are
not
being
given
a
product
which
they
will
buy.
C
All
the
evidence
shows
you've
heard
from
peter
about
the
fear,
and
you
know
from
joyce
saying
there
are
some
glimmers
of
light
on
the
horizon.
All
the
evidence
shows
that,
in
a
peculiar
way,
people
during
periods
like
this
are
really
really
crying
out
for
hardcore
verifiable,
real
information,
really
good
journalism,
in
other
words
and
in
scotland,
as
in
other
parts
of
in
the
country
as
well,
but
scotland
in
particular.
Ever
since
the
independence
debate,
there's
been
a
rise
in
the
whole
notion
of
a
critically
engaged
consumer
audience,
they
will
take
it.
C
They
will
that
they
will
take
the
journalism
if
it's
available
and
they
will
gather
it.
That's
why,
even
at
the
moment,
although
the
bbc
has
been
going
through
a
continuing
difficult
period,
the
people
still
stay
by
and
large,
fairly
loyal,
although
there
are
warning
signs
that
the
license
payment
is
going
down,
particularly
in
scotland,
so
what
I
would
actually
suggest
to
the
finalists,
you
really
the
committee
is
that
you
really
stop
and
think
about
where
the
responsibility
lies
for
this
happening.
I
would
say
from
my
research
my
experience.
It
lies
with
the
publishers.
C
Now
you
tell
me
one
publisher
in
scotland,
which
produced
the
equivalent
of
what
they
did
in
new
york
in
2014..
There
are
none,
none
of
them
actually
saw
it
coming,
except
if
you
take
a
slightly
more
jaded
point
of
view
until
they
did
see
it
coming
and
what
they
did
was.
They
saw
one
model
to
actually
come
back
into
profit,
which
was
to
cut
jobs,
which
is
like
a
restaurant
opening
advertising
fantastic
food,
then
changing
hands
and
keep
thinning
out
the
menu
and
hoping
the
customers
won't
notice.
C
Of
course,
they
notice
that's
why
the
hardcore
audience
will
go
to
organizations
that
prepare
it
or
they
will
subscribe
to
podcasts.
I
do
weekly
with
top
media
and
hundreds
of
thousands,
but
go
and
listen
to
that
even
globally,
because
they
know
quality
when
they
see
it.
The
publishers
did
not
actually
provide
the
means
for
the
journalists
to
stop
and
think
and
chart
their
own
course.
They
tried
to
chart
it
forward
and,
strangely
enough,
the
frontline
staff
which
are
taking
it
next.
The
publishers
seem
to
disappear
quite
handsome
bonuses
and
retirement
packages.
C
F
G
Thank
you
convener
and
good
morning.
Colleagues
on
to
our
panel,
I'm
just
actually
it's
just
cute
me
up
nicely
just
picking
up
on
eamon
mcneill's,
just
sentenced
last
sentence
there
where
he
said
that
there
was
a
danger
risk
of
a
generation
coming
up.
That
does
not
know
what
journalism
is,
and
I
wanted
to.
G
I
focus
my
couple
of
questions
on
on
on
the
issue
of
the
younger
generations
and
their
interest,
or
lack
thereof,
in
certainly
traditional
journalism,
newspapers
and
what
the
the
our
witnesses
can
feel
about
that
in
terms
of
what
they
suggest
could
be
done
to
interest
younger
generations
in
being
readers
of
their
material.
Perhaps
I
could
start
with
the
choice.
B
Yes,
well,
I
I
think,
as
journalists,
you
know
our
the
slogan
of
the
nug
throughout
the
whole
of
the
last
sort
of
30
years
in
this
surveilla
has
been
journalism.
Matters.
It's
not
newspapers
matter.
It's
not
the
bbc
matters.
It's
not!
You
know
it's
not
the
particular
medium
that
journalists
care
about
what
we
care
about
is
finding
a
model
that
enables
professional
journalists
to
do
their
job,
to
have
the
time
to
do
their
job
in
some
depth
and
properly
and
to
be
paid
for
it.
B
There's
an
awful
lot
of
free
journalism
going
on
now,
particularly
at
the
hyper
local
and
local
level,
where
people
are
kind
of
holding
and
community
journalism
together
and
by
depending
on
volunteers,
and,
of
course,
that
in
itself
has
an
impact
on
who
can
afford
to
do
it.
Who's
got
the
time
to
do
it
and
the
kind
of
perspective
that
those
demographics
are
likely
to
have.
So
I
mean
our
priority
is
to
find
produce
good
quality
paid
for
journalism.
B
We
don't
mind
which
platform
it
appears
on,
and
some
publications,
like
notoriously
private
eye,
are
very
successful
in
maintaining
prints
a
lot
of
people
still
like
and
enjoy
print.
Other
publications
have
very
successfully
moved
to
kind
of
major
online
operations
and
are
now
mystic
making
most
of
their
income
from
online
subscriptions
and
so
on.
B
B
But
I
think
the
worry
is
that
you've
got
young
people
now
who
even
young
people
who
want
to
be
journalists
who
actually
have
a
very
limited
experience
and
limited
perception
of
the
possibilities
of
journalism
and
of
that
critical
difference
between
really
thorough
journalism
which
which
helps
and
supports
a
political
community
or
any
kind
of
community,
in
making
good
decisions
and
and
journalism
which
is
basically
just
about
generating
clicks,
which
is
you
know,
the
main
currency
of
modern
journalism.
Really.
B
And
so
you
know,
we've
got
various
proposals
in
our
little
list
which
might
contribute
to
that.
And
one
is
the
idea
that
there
should
be
some
focal
point
for
all
of
these
debates
in
scotland
and
a
foundation
and
and
for
public
interest
journalism
and
which,
however,
it
is
funded
and
it
could
be
funded
from
many
different
sources,
actually
becomes
a
focal
point
for
for
education.
For
debate.
B
For
understanding
of
these
issues
and
for
supporting
new
initiatives
which
really
contribute
to
the
future
and
of
journalism
in
scotland,
and
of
course
it
would
be
bound
to
have
a
focus
on
on
the
rising
generation.
Because
if
you
don't
have
a
new
generation
of
consumers,
then
you
don't
have
a
media
industry
and
the
other
suggestion
we've
got.
That
is
specific
to
young
people.
Is
that
is
it?
B
G
D
Yeah,
I
think,
there's
often
a
tendency
that
we,
when
we
talk
about
journalism,
we
just
look
at
the
established
media
outlets
and
we
think
about
newspapers.
We
think
about
online.
We
think
about
broadcast.
We
think
about
them
all
as
being
quite
separate,
and
what
we
really
have
now
in
2020
is
real
convergence,
and
I
think
traditionally
you
know
if
you
look
at
something
like
kind
of
attempts
to
help
the
newspaper
industry
or
the
journalism
industry.
It's
often
focused
just
on
newspapers
and
focused
on
legacy
media
outlets
and
seeing
them
as
somehow
distinct
from
other
outlets.
D
That
is
that
newspapers
use
that
non-surprisingly,
because
they're,
probably
they
are
allotted
in
publicly
listed
companies
to
show
up
their
bottom
line,
to
allow
them
to
continue
to
make
the
kind
of
cuts
eamon
eamon
mentioned
and
to
continue
this
kind
of
strategy
of
really
squeezing
their
assets.
Because
that's
what
a
lot
of,
unfortunately,
especially
in
scotland,
the
big
newspaper
owning
a
the
the
big,
the
two
big
titles
in
scotland,
are
both
owned
by
organizations
are
basically
that
is
their.
D
Their
strategy
is
an
asset
squeezing
strategy
and
what's
hap,
what
that
has
meant
is
that
there
hasn't
been.
I
think,
the
kind
of
interventions
that
I
think
would
have
really
helped
the
industry.
Would
it
help
to
promote
the
kind
of
journalism?
I
think
we're
all
talking
about
today:
quality
journalism,
public
interest
journalism.
I
think
the
kind
of
things
that
that
joyce
mentions
about
kind
of
a
public
interest
news
initiative.
I
think
there's
a
number
of
things
that
can
be
done.
D
I
think
I
think,
trying
I
think,
any
interventions
or
any
ideas
around
kind
of
trying
to
help
the
newspaper
industry
and
the
wider
journalism
in
sector
needs
to
kind
of
take
a
much
more
platform
neutral
view.
I
think
it
needs
to
move
away
from
this
idea
that
there's
newspaper
need
to
be
helped
and
there's
there's
digital
platforms
which
are
somehow
distinct,
because
that's
not
the
case
anymore.
So
we
can
all
see
that
I
also
think
there's
a
need
to
try
and
talk
about
plurality
of
voices
and
plurality
of
of
models
and
ownership.
D
But
I
think
moving
away
from
just
seeing
kind
of
large
companies
and
large
newspaper
groups
is
the
only
people
that
you
want
to
help.
I
think
there's
a
real
need
to
engage
because
we're
seeing
more
there's
more
opportunities
now
for
local
ownership
of
for
of
newspaper
organizations
not
and
we're
seeing
this
is
happening
across
the
world.
There's
a
huge
move
into
not-for-profit
journalism,
because
what
you
have
at
the
moment
is
this
junk
disjuncture
that
there
is
people
out
there
who
want
to
pay
for
journalism
and
journalism
can
be
profitable.
D
All
these
newspapers
that
we're
talking
about
they
are
losing
staff.
They
are
still
profitable.
That's
why
people
own
them
and
they're
trying
to
squeeze
them,
but
the
problem
is
they've,
got
large
legacy,
calls
and
also
shareholders
who
want
returns
when
you
strip
away
the
legacy
cost,
but
also
the
shareholder
aspect
of
it.
There
is
a
real
we've
seen.
D
There's
a
lot
of
tools
that
are
available
there,
some
a
lot
of
which
don't
cost
a
huge
amount
of
money
to
try
and
engage
to
try
and
kind
of
broaden
and
make
a
much
more
plural
media
landscape
than
we
have
at
the
present.
I
think
shifting
the
way
we
all
think
about
this,
and
I
I've
come
from
a
traditional
journalism
background
I
worked
in
newspapers.
I
worked
for
channel
4..
Now
I
work
in
what
might
be
called
a
not-for-profit
journalism
world
and
I've
seen
so.
G
Thank
you
peter
for
for
that
contribution.
It's
very
interesting
and
I
particularly
focused
on
your
suggestion
that
we
should
be
looking
at
a
distinct
policy
offering
in
scotland,
obviously
subject
to
the
constraints
were
under,
but
that
you
feel
there
still
would
be
scope
to
do
quite
a
bit
there
and
and
just
turning.
Lastly,
to
to
amen,
I
mean
I,
I
take
the
public
interest,
but
I'm
you
know
politician,
you
know
my
bread
and
buster,
but
equally,
I
think
we
should
make
a
pitch.
G
G
I
think
they're
just
fantastic,
and
I
don't
think
we
want
to
lose
that
element
of
journalism
as
well,
but
turning
to
eamon
and
if
even
could
respond
to
the
general
issue,
but
also
when
responding
if
he
could
touch
briefly
given
his
position
on
where
we
are
the
other
side
of
this.
You
know
young
people
still
seeking
to
to
study
journalism.
What's
the
the
kind
of
experience
there
it's
over
david?
Thank
you.
C
Well,
the
short
answer
would
be
absolutely
yes.
I
mean
we
have
at
edinboro
napier
university,
which
is
one
of
the
top
universities
in
the
united
kingdom
for
teaching
journalism
going
back
decades.
We
accuse
all
of
them
every
spring
applying,
and
you
know
we
have
to
reject
quite
an
underwater
and
very
good
candidate.
C
So
the
answer
to
your
question
is:
yes,
there's
a
definite
hunger
amongst
every
generation
who
want
to
go
into
the
business
one
of
the
interesting
things
that
I
do
every
year
in
the
first,
a
class
that
I
have
is
that
I
asked
them
how
many
people
to
be
in
the
class
first
year
that
bought
a
newspaper
no
hands
go
up,
none
the
notion
of
a
trend
towards
get
getting
their
information
actually
quite
funny.
That
trend
has
been
10
years
old,
the
first
ones
that
did
that
are
now
heading
to
high
school.
C
So
an
idea
of
convergence
convergence
happened
a
decade
ago.
It's
just
that
in
scotland
their
publishers
were
so
far
behind.
It
always
may
be
very
strange
that
when
I
meet
the
publishers,
they
have
the
latest
dat
nav
on
their
cars
and
the
latest
iphone
elevens.
But
the
offices
where
they
actually
get
the
money
from
to
pay
for
all
those
is
still
acting
as
if
it's
back
in
the
1950s.
C
It's
a
strange.
This
there's
a
strange
sort
of
difference
between
what
they
practice
and
what
they
preach.
The
other
thing,
I
would
say,
is
as
far
as
the
the
voucher
idea
was
that
something
that
tabled
my
submission,
I
think,
as
joyce
said,
combining
it
with
the
curriculum
for
excellence,
is
an
excellent
opportunity.
I
get
twin
twelve
year
old
boys
who
just
started
high
school
and
people
a
month
ago,
and
I
think
it
was
a
great
opportunity
for
them,
notwithstanding
good
or
badass,
for
aim
to
be
exposed
to
who
the
locals
are.
C
You
know
what
local
newspapers
are
to
understand
how
it
differs
from
other
types
of
information.
I
remember
years
ago,
politicians
have
deleted
the
way
with
the
smoking
vine
with
the
seat
belt
ban,
both
of
which
were
framed
as
a
right
to
choose,
and
there
came
a
point
of
politicians
correctly
saying:
no
they're.
Actually
it's
a
public
health
problem.
We
need
to
sort
us
out
and
it's
exactly
the
same
with
this.
C
We
live
in
a
very,
very
complex,
democratic
society
where
you've
got
butchering
businesses,
dundee
and
edinburgh,
which
are
at
the
forefront
of
digital
innovation,
and
yet
our
newspapers
are
at
the
other
end.
They
could
use
that
innovation
to
also
be
at
the
front,
the
forefront
of
actually
saving
jobs
and
building
new
jobs
in
the
future,
and
we
also
at
some
point
as
well.
C
We
need
to
think
about
exactly
how
the
government
can
support
this
in
a
way
which
also
allows
them
wriggle
room,
because
I
appreciate
they're,
all
politicians,
I'm
sure
the
journalists
are
not
up
from
fidel
mccook
who
everyone
loves.
It's
not
exactly
the
top
of
your
head
when
it
comes
to
great
friends,
but
on
the
other
hand,
we
all
recognize
we
need
each
other
in
a
sort
of
healthy
democracy.
But
I
think
that
the
minute.
C
I
think
this
is
a
great
sign
what
we're
doing
this
morning,
because
we're
actually
starting
to
move
towards
treating
journalism
as
a
national
asset
and
something
to
be
prioritized
and
really
valued
and
here's.
Why
it's
important?
Because
the
reality
is,
if
I
go
back
to
that
scene
in
the
classroom,
that's
a
bunch
of
kids
who
want
to
go
into
journalism,
be
journalists,
they
see
all
the
problems,
they
see
the
cutbacks
and
let
god
help
them.
They
still
want
to
do
it.
C
H
C
Knows
the
ex-editor
of
the
character
and
allah
russ
bridger
entered
into
a
deal
with
facebook
for
that,
because
we're
guarding
to
get
more
hats
on
their
website
and
he
said
later
on,
it
was
a
black
box.
We
didn't
know
how
it
worked.
So
if
you've
got
an
organization
like
that
which
in
a
moment
constitutes
the
largest
place
that
people
begin
their
search
every
morning
for
information,
they
don't
go
to
their
daily
record.
They
don't
go
to
the
herald,
they
don't
go
to
the
scotsman.
They
don't
go
to
the
garden.
C
They
don't
go
to
the
daily
mail.
They
do
that
later
on
in
the
day,
but
first
thing
in
the
morning:
they
all
go
to
twitter
and
facebook.
How
much
you
control?
Who
you've
got?
How
much
overlapping
can
scottish
partner
oversight
have
over
them
and
everybody's
outraged
with
the
fact
donald
trump
only
paid
750?
C
How
much
did
amazon
pay?
How
much
does
facebook
pay
so
that
kind
of
that's
the
problem,
you're,
actually
looking
in
the
wrong
place,
the
place
where
the
influence
is
right
now
is
with
these
gigantic
digital
companies.
These
huge
platforms,
that's
what
the
current
generation
and
the
next
generation
are
getting
all
their
information
from
the
way
to
actually
is
to
look
at
these
proposals
we
are
putting
in
place.
The
first
thing
is
get
the
next
generation.
C
G
I
Thank
you,
convener,
and
I
should
start
off
with
a
brief
declaration
of
interest
and
I
still
retain
my
membership
of
nuj
and
I'm
a
paying
member
of
the
fair,
as
well
as
annabelle
ewing,
said,
I'm
particularly
interested
in
the
role
of
the
social
media
platforms
and
and
everything
that
eamonn's
just
said
before
we
come
to
that.
I'd
like
to
stick
with
the
issue
of
young
people
and
their
consumption
of
the
me
at
this
point,
our
media
education.
I
So
media
education
focused
solely
on
young
people,
doesn't
quite
do
it,
but
I'm
interested
in
the
panel's
views
on
what
traditional
media
platforms
offer
young
people,
because
it's
not
just
hard
news.
Our
news
is
something
that
young
people
want.
But
if
I
look
across
the
scottish
media
landscape,
I
can
think
of
almost
no
columnists
who
are
under
the
age
of
30.
I
can
think
of
almost
no
one.
Who's
got
the
the
generational
experiences
of
my
generation
in
terms
of
precarious
housing,
precarious
work
and
who
are
the
people
who
would
and
sound
like
them.
I
So
I'd
be
interested
in
your
thoughts
on
what
offering
the
traditional
media
landscape.
What
offering
our
newspapers
need
to
actually
make
to
young
people
beyond
just
the
hard
news-
and
I
said
that
that
is
the
primary
role
here.
Absolutely
I've
been
interested
in
your
thoughts
on
having
the
media
that
actually
looks
like
the
generation
that
it
needs
to
get
by
and
from
if
it's
to.
B
Survive,
I
I
think
in
theory
ross-
and
there
is
a
difference
between
theory
and
practice
here,
because
you're
you're
right
in
practice.
A
lot
of
the
people
who
are
writing
wider
coverage
for
for
for
our
traditional
media
are
in
an
older
age
group.
There's
absolutely
no
doubt
about
that,
but
it's
one
of
the
things
that
I
I
do
think
is
important
about
traditional
media
and
which
has
not
been
very
well
captured
in
in
online
media.
B
I
mean
you
know,
for
the
last
40
years
old
by
some
miracle,
I've
been
a
theater
critic
in
scotland
and,
and
you
know,
the
power
of
newspapers
to
finance
any
kind
of
critical
analysis
of
what's
going
on
in
our
cultural
scene
has
been
dwindling
and
dwindling
throughout
that
time.
So
the
number
of
colleagues
I've
got,
has
kind
of
dwindled
away,
and
it
does
seem
to
me
that
that
kind
of
cultural
coverage,
for
instance,
is
one
area
where
young
people
can
actually
be
very
drawn
to
media
of
any
kind.
B
You
know
is,
is
really
really
important
and
it's
an
area
of
debate
that
often
often
gets
very
much
to
the
heart
of
the
world
view
of
any
particular
generation
of
young
people
as
they're
coming
through.
So
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
that
we
could
really
be
debating
in
the
context
of
some
kind
of
scottish
initiative
on
the
future
of
journalism
would
be
how
we
retain
that
sort
of
range
of
coverage.
B
You
know,
if
you
imagine
a
kind
of
traditional
scotsman-style
newspaper,
a
generation
or
two
ago
it
would
have
had
you
know
a
full-time
education,
correspondent,
a
full-time
agriculture,
correspondent
and
several
people
writing
about
culture,
a
full-time
arts,
editor
and
a
full-time
books
editor.
You
know
it
would
have
had
a
huge
range
of
specialist
fields
that
would
have
attracted
in
a
whole
lot
of
different
people,
including
young
people,
to
begin
to
read
the
newspaper
and
now
that
we're
dealing,
of
course,
with
a
vastly
different,
more
varied
range
of
platforms.
D
To
add
into
this,
and
and
actually
to
echo
some
of
of
ross's
points,
I
gave
a
talk
a
couple
of
years
ago
at
a
college
in
the
south
side
of
glasgow,
and
I
introduced
myself
as
coming
from
the
ferris.
You
know
kind
of
room
about
40
or
50
people
who
were
interested
in
journalism,
most
of
whom
hadn't
heard
of
of
the
pharisees
and
our
profile
does
also
skew
older,
and
I
think,
there's
there's.
D
I
think
ross
does
pick
up
an
important
point,
but
when
it
comes
to
monetizing
journalism,
the
the
kind
of
the
money
side
of
it
is
still
is
older
and
okay.
Part
of
that
is
because
older
people
have
more
disposable
income
and
they've
more.
You
have
acid
bubbles
and
all
the
rest
of
it,
but
also
there's
a
kind
of
there's
a
cultural
thing
about
pain
for
journalism.
D
I
think
there's
also
a
cultural
thing
that
I
think
the
scottish
industry
in
general
hasn't
got
to
grips,
which
is
people
want
to
see
themselves
reflected
in
the
journalism
they
consume
and
in
scotland.
I
think
it's
particularly
difficult
because
you
have
this
older
cohort,
who
you
know,
are
your
subscribers,
which
isn't
so
much
the
case
with
the
fair.
We
do
actually
have
small
amounts
of
money
available
for
young
journalists.
We
do
try
and
encourage
young
journalists
in
we.
D
We
have
young
journalists
on
the
board,
but
if
you're
a
traditional
publisher,
you
know
you're
you're
the
people
you're
consuming
your
content
are
older.
Do
you
end
up
in
that
kind
of
you're
you're
constantly
trying
to
keep
them
there?
So
you
are
producing
more
and
more
content
that
sku's
older.
I
think
it's
not
just
columnist,
I
think,
there's
a
kind
of
in
terms
of
how
what
the
kind
of
stuff
the
people
younger
people
consume.
D
We
still
have
very
traditional
ways
of
telling
stories
in
scotland
here's
a
newspaper
story
online,
there's
very
little
video,
there's
very
little
integrated
content
and
there's
very
little
quality,
high
quality
content.
We
come
back
to
this
question
of
quality
because
what
we
have
seen
the
internet
is
americanized
and
and
flattened
difference
across
the
world,
particularly
in
the
english-speaking
world.
D
As
one
of
the
particular
problems,
I
think
that
new
smaller
outlets
face
in
in
britain
is
that
we
all
speak
english,
so
we
can
consume
content
from
america,
so
you
know
it's
and
it's
one
of
the
reasons
why
cultural
phenomenon,
whether
it's
black
lives
matter
or
television,
shows
for
america
can
become
really
big
thousands
of
miles
away
because
we're
consuming
the
same
content.
It's
made
very
well,
it's
very
high
quality,
it's
very
good!
D
It's
very
compelling,
and
often
the
offerings
that
are
similar
in
in
a
local
level
are
just
nowhere
near
as
they're,
not
good
enough,
and
so
the
medium
is
a
really
important
part
of
this.
So
if
you
have
young
people,
you're
not
going
to
get
young
people
to
start
buying,
newspapers
and
you
have
to
you-
have
to
go
and
meet
consumers
where
they're
asked
so
like
at
the
fair.
D
We
do
have
things
like
you
know,
a
snapchat
channel
and
all
that
that
is
important,
but
I
think
there's
almost
a
need
to
go
even
further
and
again
part
of
that
as
well,
I
think,
is
when
you're
bringing
new
journalists
in
a
lot
of
younger
journalists.
You
know
your
gra
you're
in
entry-level
jobs
in
a
scottish
newsroom.
I
know
this
from
experience
is,
is
churning,
as
we'll
say,
is
churning
out
four
or
five
stories
a
day
is
rewriting
copy
from
the
internet.
D
You
know
which
is
not
something
that's
going
to
particularly
appeal
to
to
people
of
your
age
group.
It's
not
necessarily
the
content
that
you
would
produce,
so
we're
not
empowering
younger
journalists
with
experienced
editors
to
produce
the
kind
of
content
that
they
would
want
to
see,
and
some
outlets
do
do
this.
Well.
I
think
the
guardian's
been
good
on
this,
but
we
don't
really
seem
to
do
that.
So
that's,
I
think,
that's
part
of
it
too,
and
also,
I
think,
what's
happened
in
scotland.
D
I
think
the
foresight
to
think
about
how
do
we
bring
these
new
voices
in?
I
think
it
is.
It's
pretty
damning
indictment
that
six
years
on
from
the
independence
referendum
in
which
so
many
people,
people
like
me
who
wrote
a
book
about
this,
talked
about
this
kind
of
new
voices.
New
young
voices
coming
through
that
we
have
almost
no
new
voices
or
young
voices
at
all
in
the
scottish
media
landscape.
I
Thanks
very
much
I'm
conscious
of
time,
so
I'm
wondering
just
if
anyone
wants
to
reflect
on
any
of
these
points.
I'm
going
to
roll
up
a
second
question
specifically
to
him.
Picking
up
this
issue
of
social
media
regulation,
part
of
the
challenge
with
that
seems
to
be
social
media
platforms
are
treated
like
a
kind
of
lawful
neutral,
but
they
are
just
a
platform
that
provides
other
people's
content
rather
than
regulated
and
anything
like
the
same
way
as
a
a
media
organization,
a
newspaper
etc,
would
be.
I
But
the
challenge
here
is
that
they're
massive
international
corporations,
who
can
bully
individual
nations
into
avoiding
regulating
them
or
who,
by
the
nature
of
their
platform,
are
impossible
to
regulate
at
a
national
level,
so
be
interested
in
your
thoughts
on
how?
How,
in
a
scottish
context,
can
we
take
on
the
incredible
power
of
these
massive
corporations
because
they
are
dictating
to
a
huge
extent
what
the
media
landscape
looks
like
now,
and
what
it's
going
to
look
like,
10,
20
30
years
from
now.
C
The
answer-
the
answer
actually
is
horrifically
simple:
you
just
show
how
rubbish
their
journalism
offerings
are.
Young
scottish
young
kids
are
bright.
You
know
the
potential
to
lead
the
world
in
any
field
that
they
go
into.
Why
would
they
not
be
able
to
understand
the
qualitative
difference
between
a
loadable
quads
wall
upon
facebook
and
a
piece
of
good
scottish
journalism?
C
It's
really
fairly
straightforward.
If
you're
spending
all
day
looking
at
facebook
and
flicking
through
things
and
thinking,
that's
what
the
news
is,
then
the
problem
is
they
don't
have
a
choice?
They
don't
have
an
alternative
for
all
the
reasons
peter
enjoys
it
just
a
little
too
I've
been
talking
about
business,
investment,
asset
stripping
and
everything
else.
The
reason
you
don't
see
any
young
voices
is
because
the
choice
was
also
looking
to
jobs.
C
C
May
struggle
with
the
next
generation
I
mean
I
should
give
an
honorable
mention
here
to
the
bbc.
They
often
take
a
kicking
from
everybody.
Sometimes
I
contribute
to
that,
but
they
actually
are
fairly
good.
When
it
comes
to
the
bbc
graduate
recruitment
program,
they
try
and
they
do
also
go
away
in
a
positive
way
and
look
at
the
recruitment
of
people
from
different
backgrounds,
different
genders
and
so
on.
They
go
out
their
way
to
do
this
in
a
positive
and
discriminating
way.
C
But
it's
interesting
that
when
you
talk
about
facebook,
look
in
reality
they
are
a
publisher,
they
enjoy
all
the
privileges
of
being
a
publisher,
but
they
don't
have
any
of
the
other
responsibilities.
Anybody
else,
that's
an
editor
of
a
newspaper
has
got
to
have
a
reputation
around
every
story.
That's
published
whether
it's
a
column,
whether
it's
a
sports
report,
whether
it's
a
cultural
review
or
whether
it's
a
habiting
piece
of
public
interest
journalism
on
the
front
page.
C
J
I
think
you
can
been
a
good
morning
panel
and
colleagues
before
I
start.
Could
I
bring
the
committee's
attention
please
to
the
fact
that
members
of
my
family
own
shetland's,
only
weekly
print
newspaper,
but
I
have
no
interest
in
it.
Financial
or
otherwise,
and
so
you'll
not
be
surprised
that
I
think
local
newspapers
make
a
valuable
contribution
to
the
economic
and
social
life
of
the
communities
and
they
are
a
reliable
source
of
information
and
people
have
turned
to
them.
B
I'll
I'll
start
on
that,
it
seems
to
me
that,
looking
forward
the
experience
of
trying
to
run
local
newspapers
on
a
purely
commercial
basis,
it
may
work
in
some
communities
and
and
we
we
certainly
need
to
have
a
kind
of
horses
for
courses
approach
to
it.
But
I
think,
in
terms
of
being
owned
by
big
sort
of
publicly
quoted
companies,
there's
a
lot
of
evidence
that
that
model
for
providing
local
news
is
is
beginning
to
fail
and
being
owned
by
a
sort
of
family.
Owned.
B
B
Of
the
various
mechanisms
that
there
are
for
supporting
local,
not
for
pro
not-for-profit
enterprises
and
to
make
sure
that
that
covers
potential
media
organizations-
and
you
know
the
situation
where
a
local
title,
which
has
a
long
history,
is
all
but
dead,
and
the
community
might
want
to
buy
it
out
in
the
same
way
that
it
might
buy
out
the
pub
and
or
the
local
shop.
If
that
was
being
abandoned.
You
know
by
by
bigger
owners
and
the
situation
in
which
a
community
wants
to
start
up
a
local
newspaper
of
its
own.
B
D
Yes,
I'm
happy
to
speak
to
that
too.
I
think
that's
you
know,
that's
the
reason.
The
kind
of
nub
of
it
is
that
what
you
have
is
a
lot
of
large
amounts
of
local
need.
I
think
local
newspapers,
we
all
realize,
are
very
important
if
you
live
in.
You
know
I'm
from
a
rural
area
how
important
the
local
newspaper
was
in
terms
of
both
not
just
community
but
doing
doing
a
series
of
really
important
jobs
and
of
like
both
reflecting
the
community
back
to
itself,
but
also
doing
stuff
by
calling
the
council
to
account.
D
You
know
kind
of
providing
a
forum
for
information
for
accurate
information.
I
think
it's
we
all
can
see
the
benefit
and
the
value
of
them
we
can
see.
What's
happened,
they're
called
news.
Deserts
they've
been
written
a
lot
about
in
the
american
context,
but
I
think
you
could
probably
write
about
them
in
the
british
context
too.
In
the
scottish
context,
where
what
happens
is
newspapers
disappear
and
people
do
not
have
access
to
reliable
local
information
and
in
that
world
they
do
get
replaced
by
you
know.
D
I
think
this
keys
in
with
some
of
the
previous
points
about
social
media,
because
then
what
happens
is
in
the
absence
of
reliable
information
and
the
relapses
of
local
newspapers.
Social
media
platforms
become
the
place
where
that
information
circulates
and
can
often
be
filled
with
misinformation,
disinformation
and
all
the
problems
that
go
with
that,
and
I
think
we
have
so
many
interesting
examples.
In
scotland
places
like
the
west
island
free
press,
where
we
have
seen
community
ownership
for
newspapers,
it's
difficult,
it's
very
difficult.
D
D
What
you're
seeing
is
local
newspapers,
which
could,
I
think,
could
operate
often
quite
well
or
there's
a
case
you
made
for
experimenting
with
them,
as
not
for
profits
are
expected
to
deliver,
returns,
deliver
shareholder
value
and
they're,
not
capable
of
doing
that,
because
they're
not
able
to
so
what
happens?
Is
they
get
cut
further
and
further?
And
I
think
everyone,
the
difficulty
I
think
now
is
we're
talking
about
12
15
years
of
cuts.
Now
so
12
or
15
years
ago.
People
could
see
a
lot
more
value
in
their
local
newspapers
and
it's
actually.
D
That's
that
a
process
of
cutting
and
it's
kind
of
I
can
cut
away
the
community
and
the
readers
from
the
local
newspaper
and
I
think,
there's
a
real
need
to
try
and
look
at
ways
to
support
newspapers
to
make
a
transition
from
being
for-profit
outlets
into
not-for-profit
essence,
from
being
multinationally
owned
to
being
locally
owned.
I
think
there
is
models
for
how
to
do
that.
It
takes
time
it
takes
creativity,
but
I
think
there's
a
need
to
try
and
think
about
that
and
how
to
support
that.
J
C
Well,
I
think
that
what
you
do
is
you
build
into
your
plans,
a
firewall.
It's
been
done
in
other
parts
of
the
world
where
you
set
up
the
fund.
You
set
up
the
initiative.
You
set
up
the
panel
that
runs
it
and
you
make
sure
that
there's
absolutely
no
chance
that
anyone
who's
receiving
that
help
can
see
themselves
as
being
in
any
way.
C
I
mean
look
at
the
end
of
the
day.
If
you
make
something
attractive
to
people,
they
will
get
involved
in
it.
I'm
always
struck
by
the
fact
that
if
you
go
on
a
train
or
you
sometimes
go
to
a
lounge
somewhere,
three
copies
of
scotsman
kicking
around
bulk
copies
that
are
lying
there
for
people
of
a
certain
demographic
to
just
grab
and
read
on
the
train
or
whatever
we're
just
lying
around
and
they're
giving
away.
C
If
you
go
inside
outside
of
high
school
at
lunchtime
and
there's
no
kids
walking
out
of
the
paper
they're
all
looking
at
their
handful,
there's
no
point
saying
to
them:
buy
a
newspaper,
that's
not
saying
eat
your
broccoli,
great
idea,
but
in
reality
they're
not
going
to
do
it.
Unless
you
make
it
quite
a
fact
and
interesting.
Now
I'm
doing
the
borders,
I'm
doing
your
people
and
we've
got
a
thriving
local
newspaper
and
the
people
should
use
and
it
does
very
well.
It's
got
young
journalists
on
it.
It
covers
all
the
stuff.
C
You
need
right,
there's
plenty
of
photographs
of
the
body,
baby
competition
and
here's
an
interesting
sheet
and
things
like
that.
But
in
the
other
hand,
if
there's
some
good
heart
that
the
news,
the
tunnels
are
engaged
they're
out
in
the
street,
they're
talking
to
people
and
here's
the
other
thing,
they
have
got
a
fantastic
presence
online
they're,
not
looking
at
their
own
website,
but
the
first
place
to
go
is
they're
on
facebook.
C
So
if
there's
a
bad
crash
of
junction
or
there's
a
helicopter
doing
the
rounds,
you've
only
to
go
on
on
your
phone
straight
away,
and
you
can
see
the
people
from
news-
reporters
are
already
jumping
over
on
their
website
or
on
the
facebook
page.
That's
what
the
future
is
where
the
kids
already
are
in
the
old
days.
What
you
do
was
actually
sit
back
and
wait
for
them
to
come
to
you
now.
You've
got
to
go
to
the
watering
halls
of
the
places
where
they
already
are,
and
here's
the
really
good
thing
about
it.
C
We
know
how
to
reach
them.
They've
already
got
the
things
which
traditional
legacy,
followers
publishers,
sometimes
see
as
the
enemy,
which
is
a
digital
device.
That's
wrong!
That's
the
opportunity,
because
they're
already
connected
it's
just
as
peter
says,
they're
going
going
to
the
wrong
places
for
their
information
and
the
fact
because
of
the
fact
that
there's
nothing,
therefore
they're
available
locally
or
nationally,
none
of
the
newspapers
are
reaching
out
they're
reaching
out
to
people.
They
think
that
their
money,
and
so
on,
but
they're
not
reaching
out
to
the
next
generation.
C
You
know
it's
that
notion
of
what
was
it.
Somebody
once
said
to
john
f
kennedy:
why
should
we
plant
a
tree
I'll
take
a
hundred
years
and
he
said:
well
you
better
hurry
up
and
plant
it.
Then,
if
that's
what
I'm
saying
now,
we
should
engage
with
the
younger
people
for
the
primary
school
high
school
and
even
at
universities
and
get
in
there
aggressively
with
the
papers
helping
them
as
well.
C
And
if
you
plant
that
seed
trust
me,
it
will
be
a
fruit
at
the
moment
they
are
people
across
the
desert
in
their
hands
and
knees
and
across
broken
glassing
information.
It's
just
when
they
get
there.
The
information
turns
out
to
be
absolute
rubbish
and
dangerous
stuff
from
marginal
groups
who
are
way
ahead
technologically
and
what
we
are
doing
at
the
moment
in
scotland.
H
Thank
you,
a
convener,
I'm!
I
absolutely
love
my
local
people.
There
are
lots
of
good
journalists
across
the
constituency,
I'm
proud
to
represent,
but
I
the
jim
fisher
newspaper
group
that
produces
the
moffett
news
and
they'll
herald
adam
freeze,
courier
and
the
annandale
observer
family-owned
group,
who
provide,
I
you're,
in
my
view,
an
excellent
public
service
with
dedicated
local
journalists
who
care
about
their
community
yeah.
I
I
think,
are
doing
such
a
great
job
and
I'm
pleased
to
hear
the
panelists
recognize
the
importance
of
local
journalism.
H
H
That's
written
every
week,
you
know
and
have
a
staff
photographer
that
goes
to
local
events
and
make
sure
we
have
those
nice
pictures
of
sheep
and
from
other
groups,
and
then
you've
got
to
you've
got
to
have
a
way
of
paying
for
it
and
have
a
revenue
coming
in,
and
you
know
the
the
kind
of
facebook
stuff
doesn't
doesn't
pay.
Twitter
stuff
doesn't
pay,
and
you
know
if
you're
putting
adverts
on
a
website
unless
you're
able
to
to
do
it
on
scale.
H
You
know
some
of
the
bigger
groups
are
able
to
do
that.
You
know
the
revenue
just
doesn't
come
back
in
and
it's
it's
whether
I'm
you
know
the
panelists
are
open
to
kind
of
a
dual
model.
Where
you
know
there
is
some
public
money.
I
had
to
support,
I
family-run
newspapers
and
with
the
public
good
element
of
what
they
do,
particularly
when
it
comes
to
training,
young
journalists
or
a
covering
in
in
some
cases,
announcements
by
local
authority.
You
are
and
that
you'll
have
a
real
public
interest.
B
A
very
sort
of
clear
a
statement
of
of
of
the
difficulties
absolutely
and
it.
It
really
goes
to
well.
Two
of
the
points
on
the
list
of
points
that
that
that
that
my
branch
sent
in
and
the
first
one
is
to
do
with
some
kind
of
public
interest,
news
and
foundation,
because
I
think
the
importance
of
that
would
be.
I
mean
I
hesitate
to
to
mention
and
the
creative,
scotland
or
or
arts
council
model,
because
that's
not
without
its
own
problems.
B
But
I
think
if
the
government
was
ever
to
put
money
towards,
as
you've
just
said,
support
for
local
newspapers.
Perhaps
the
kind
of
family
owned
newspapers
that
do
a
good
job
or
some
kind
of
not-for-profit
model
of
local
newspapers.
It
would
very
much
have
to
be
at
arm's
length
and
it
would
have
to
be
filtered
through
an
institution
which
had
quite
strong
systems
of
governance
which
kept.
You
know
the
government
at
arm's
length
from
any
kind
of
from
any
kind
of
intervention
or
interference
in
those
publications.
B
B
A
few
years
ago,
francis
karen
cross
had
a
meeting
with
the
cabinet
secretary,
fiona
hislock
during
the
course
of
devising
and
that
report,
and
ever
since
really
the
cabinet
secretary
has
been
expressing
an
interest
in
the
idea
of
some
kind
of
public
interest,
news
foundation
or
organization.
Now
I
would
see
that
organization.
B
As
part
of
that,
and
it
seems
to
me
that
there
are
many
areas
in
which
such
a
foundation
could
work,
ranging
from
support
for
specific
initiatives,
support
for
existing
initiatives
and
where
they're,
providing
quality
journalism
and
and
and
also
a
whole
kind
of
educational
purpose,
to
do
with
supporting
debate
and
educating
the
next
generation
and
as
part
of
the
that
again,
the
sixth
point
that
we've
made,
which
is
about
really
subscription
models.
And
now,
I
think,
obviously,
over
in
the
kind
of
situation
you're
describing
a
subscription
model.
B
A
H
D
And
yeah,
I
just
I
know
time
is
tight,
so
I
just
wanted
to
reiterate
that.
But
I
think
there
is
again,
I
think,
there's
quite
interesting
international
models
for
how
you
can
do
this
in
a
way
that
doesn't
isn't
just
a
stage
stepping
in
and
if
there's
an
opportunity
to
to
support.
You
know
I
mentioned
in
my
submission
that
local,
you
know,
and
the
local
community
for
profit
too,
but
I
think
it's
really.
D
I
think
that
local
aspect
is
really
important
and
it's
really
interesting
to
see
those
local
newspapers
that
are
survived
are
often
small,
family-owned
newspapers,
who
have
a
very,
very
tight
connection
to
the
community
that
they're
in,
and
I
think
it's
about
supporting
that,
because
that
has
two
really
important
things.
It's
very
important
at
a
local
level,
but
also
it's
very
important,
I
think,
for
bringing
on
you
new
journalists
and
new
talent
to
come
into
the
industry,
so
there's
actually
a
route
into
an
industry
rather
than
it's
what's
happening
a
lot
now.
D
This
is
the
kind
of
the
supply
side
outside
of
it.
Is
journalists
are
going
from
degrees
into
jobs
in
the
industry
for
a
couple
of
years
into
very,
very
unsatisfactory
jobs,
they're,
not
learning
a
hell
of
a
lot
and
then
they're
moving
out
of
the
industry,
because
it
pays
badly
and
they're
not
seeing
any
potential
for
progression.
D
So
there's
a
real
need
in
a
small
place
like
scotland,
as
well
as
having
the
the
kind
of
demand
side
set
up
to
have
a
routine
for
people
to
have
a
career
to
have
some
sort
of
sustainable
career,
and
local
newspapers
can
be
a
very
important
part
of
that.
If
they're
done
well
and
their
people
are
in
an
employment
situation,
that
is
a
a
decent
one
to
work,
not
not
one
in
which
they're
kind
of
being
pushed
out
of
the
industry.
H
You
know
I
I
definitely
see
that
because
I
think
it
teaches
people
an
attention
to
details
if
you're
living
and
working
in
a
community,
you
have
to
get
the
detail
and
the
facts
right
and
also,
I
think
it's
it
is
having
to
to
produce
that
original
content.
Because
you,
you
know
in
an
area
I,
like
the
one
I
represent.
You
can't
just
copy
and
paste
off
of
the
bbc
website
because
they're
not
they
are
covering
the
stories
people
are
interested
in.
H
But
the
second
question
I
wanted
to
ask
was
around
advertising
and
whether
the
panel
fueled
at
a
national
level
at
a
local
level
in
terms
of
local
authorities,
particularly
you
know
things
like
government
organizations,
sort
of
transport,
scotland,
etc.
Whether
the
panelists
feel
these.
These
organizations
seem
to
have
pulled
back
from
advertising
in
a
lot
of
local
papers
and
seem
to
want
to
put
things
onto
their
own
websites,
or
I
try
and
push
them
out
through
other
means.
B
B
But
once
again
there
are
all
these
issues
about
arms
length
about
about
doing
it
transparently
and
in
a
way
that
the
public
understands.
So
it
doesn't
just
look
like
some
kind
of
back
room
deal
between
the
government
and
newspaper
owners,
which
obviously
isn't
attractive,
and
one
quite
interesting
thing
on
that
heading
and
that's
happened
during
the
pandemic-
is
that
at
cardiff
university
there
is
a
community
news
network
based.
You
know
they
run
it
as
part
of
their
academic
institution,
but
it
brings
together
very
small
scale.
B
They've
actually
done
a
deal
both
with
the
uk
government
and
with
the
scottish
government's
advertising
buyers
to
make
sure
that
some
of
the
advertising,
spain
actually
comes
to
these
release
and
hyper
local
publications
and
the
edinburgh
reporter,
for
instance,
and
it's
quite
a
small
kind
of
local
publication
here
in
edinburgh
published
monthly,
and
they
received
a
very
significant
little
dollop
of
government
spending
and
for
adverts
during
the
pandemic
and
which
has
really
helped
them
to
survive
the
situation
they've
been
in.
So
it's
a
you
know.
B
It
is
possible
for
governments
to
play
a
an
important
role
and
for
governments
at
all
levels
to
play
an
important
role
and
in
supporting
local
media
through
advertising.
But
I
think
it's
very
important
that
it's
transparent
and
that
people
understand
the
rules
under
which
it's
being
done
and
the
criteria
that
are
being
applied.
K
Thank
you.
Thank
you
very
much
kamina
and
let
me
start
by
quoting
that
most
reliable
of
sources
myself.
We
had
a
debate
on
the
31st
of
october
2002
in
the
parliament
on
broadcasting
and
the
print
media,
and
it
covered
a
lot
of
the
stuff
that
we've
been
covering
this
morning,
and
I
said
at
that
time.
K
Diversity
of
ownership
is
one
of
the
things
that
underpins
diversity
of
opinion,
and
I
want
to
just
explore
the
tension
between
journalism
and
proprietorship
of
publications
and
indeed
editorship
just
to
see
where
we
should
perhaps
redraw
some
of
the
lines,
because
I
would
assert
that
owners
rarely
operate
in
the
public
interest.
The
interests
operating
their
own,
but
journalists
for
the
most
part
operate
in
the
the
public
interest
and
perhaps
picking
up
on
what
peter
said
earlier.
K
People
want
to
see
themselves
reflected
in
what
they
read
and
I
can
think
of
three
examples.
In
my
life,
where
decisive
changes
have
been
made,
and
my
mother
used
to
buy
a
liberal
newspaper
which
was
taken
over
by
the
daily
mail
in
1964.,
the
daily
mail
appeared
in
the
house
twice
and
then
was
banned
at
stinha,
and
she
then
switched
to
the
dundee
courier.
K
I,
for
my
part,
to
stop
treating
the
scotsman
in
april
1997
and
when
andrew
neal,
who
was
the
editor,
inserted
a
single
sentence
in
a
full
page.
Article
contributed
by
the
institute
for
fiscal
studies,
about
the
snp's
financial
proposals
for
the
election
and
the
ifs
were
extremely
annoyed
about
it
as
well,
and
I
stopped
reading
the
economist
and
when
they
put
on
their
front
page
in
2014,
a
picture
with
the
word
skill
planned.
It
didn't
relate
to
what
was
inside.
So
you
can
create
lots
of
reasons
to
stop
reading
things.
K
I
I
spend
60
pounds
a
month
on
my
newspaper
subscriptions,
but
I
read
them
all
online,
so
perhaps
going
to
to
eamonn.
First,
if
I
may,
for
an
academic
viewpoint
and
by
the
way
it
was
napoleon
who
talked
about
cheese
and
the
poplars
along
the
the
military
roads
of
europe.
In
the
early
eighteen
hundreds,
but
there
we
are
that's
another
story.
Just
to
ask
about
the
academic
view
of
the
tension
between
proprietors
who
own
big
swathes
of
the.
K
I
would
suggest,
for
example,
the
competition
authority
required
murder
to
keep
the
times
and
the
sunday
times
as
separate
publication,
but
in
the
recent
past,
guess
what
they
aren't
all
right:
the
branding's
still
there
but
they're.
Not
so
so.
What
role
would
government
play
in
ensuring
the
greater
diversity
of
ownership?
Because
I
I
I
can't
help
feeling
that
would
help
damon.
C
C
And
of
course
you
even
you
know
the
great
harold
evans
who
just
died
in
the
last
week
yeah
sunday
times.
These
were
great
journalists
and
the
publishers
by
and
large
stood
back
and,
in
both
cases,
actually
backed
them
to
the
health
and
one
case
watergate
the
second
phase
to
do
with
distillers
and
the
fluid
scanning,
which
I'm
sure
you
recall
as
well.
They
were
left
to
go
on
with
it,
but
life
isn't
always
like
that,
and
you
know
it's
incumbent
upon
people,
good
you're,
the
legislator
you're
the
politician
you're
elite.
C
I
mean
when
the
one
has
a
difficult
tension,
and
just
briefly,
on
the
one
hand
you
do
have
a
pluralist,
pluralistic
press
tradition
in
the
uk
and
in
scotland
it
was
interesting.
You
said
your
mother
liked
the
liberal
paper
and
that
you
know
people
often
buy
what
reflects
back
to
confirmation
bias
will
do
it's
normal.
You
know,
and
I
think
that's
that
could
be
a
healthy
thing
too.
C
On
the
other
hand,
following
the
more
more
modern
american
model,
they
really
are
very,
very
strict
about
ethics
when
it
came
to
being
seen
to
clear
blue
water
between
the
publication
and
what
the
line
was,
and
that
was
why,
for
example,
very
rarely
over
here,
you'll
use
you'll
see
the
phrase
ombuds,
but
never
used
where
somebody
in
the
paper
will
actually
examine
itself.
I
think
this
is
all
solvable.
C
I
think
the
very
nature
of
your
question
indicates:
there's
a
will
there
and
there's
an
ethical
framework
and
there's
a
there's,
a
keenness
to
make
this
happen,
but
we've
got
to
do
it
a
very
modern
way,
going
back
to
a
ross
real
up
on
which
was
most
manipulative
and
the
people
who
are
actually
accessing
the
conspiracy
sites.
The
most
are
people
of
your
generation
and
people.
C
You
know
who
are
looking
no
less
than
young
people
for
simple
truths
and
complex
worlds
and
there's
plenty
of
simple
truths
out
there
for
them
to
choose
from
so
they're
the
ones
that
are
accessing.
Hence
the
reason
why
the
brexit
vote,
and
so
on
it
skewed
the
demographic
excuse
things
in
a
certain
direction.
It
wasn't
all
the
young
people,
older
people
who
should
arguably
know
better
but
here's
the
problem.
C
If
we
get
any
wiser
as
we
get
older,
if
you
are
given
the
right
information,
the
right
fools,
what
happens
you
just
end
up
making
the
same
mistake
over
and
over
again,
and
of
course,
let's
just
if
we
can
circle
back
to
where
we
began.
Let's,
let's
go
easy
and
john
f
kennedy,
I'm
sure
he
wasn't
the
first
politician
to
steal
a
good
quote.
K
C
And,
interestingly,
just
before
you
go
the
washington
post,
they
are
ruined
by
the
richest
man
in
the
world.
Jeff
bezos
harkin
at
250
million
dollars
and
he
has
been
very
hands
off
and
the
jobs
he's
created
are
the
ones
that
people
enjoys
that
are
talking
about
public
interest
journalism,
he's
hired
people
to
scrutinize
the
very
model
which
has
made
him
all
these
money.
Interesting.
B
Well,
I
think,
given
the
industrial
struggles
of
the
last
30
or
40
years,
the
national
union
of
journalists
very
much
and
supports
the
view,
obviously
that
there
are
flaws
in
the
ownership
model
that
we
have
in
the
british
media
and
certainly
in
traditional
newspapers,
and
that
and
and
that
a
lot
of
the
companies
which
are
involved
are
fundamental
to
the
line
than
they
are
in
journalism.
And
that
tends
to
be
the
distinction
between
the
publicly
quoted
companies
which
are
involved
and
the
and
the
privately
owned
you
know.
B
Family,
owned
or-
or
you
know,
jeff
bezos
owned
companies
which,
which
may
actually
be
run
by
people
on
whatever
kind
of
model
within
the
organization
who
are
interested
in
doing
some
journalism.
I
think
the
difficulty
we're
certainly
experiencing
with
local
news
in
scotland,
for
instance,
is
that
a
lot
of
the
local
newspapers
are
now
owned
by
three
or
four
large
newspaper
groups,
which
are
run
on
a
very
harsh
commercial
model
and
which
are
interested
in
very
little
beyond
the
bottom
line.
B
Here
is
for
governments
to
begin
to
support
to
the
people
if
you
like,
who
want
to
be
the
change
that
we
would
all
like
to
see.
I
mean
I
know
it's
a
an
awful
kind
of
new
age
slogan
be
the
change
you
want
to
see,
but
the
fact
is
you're
going
to
achieve
more
by
demonstrating
how
new
kinds
of
media
can
work
with
more
diverse
patterns
of
ownership
than
you
are
by
just
moaning
about
the
old
patterns.
B
So
people
who
are
like
the
people
who
have
founded
the
ferret
who
are
demonstrating
a
different
model
in
their
case
a
subscription
and
membership
model
which
can
really
work
better.
They
are
kind
of
doing
a
better
job
of
showing
what
the
future
might
look
like
than
people
that
are
simply
critiquing
and
the
current
situation.
B
And
so
what
I
think
governments
should
be
doing
is
is
even
when
they're
short
of
resources
is
setting
up
structures
and
frameworks
which
make
it
as
easy
as
possible
for
people
with
limited
resources
to
launch
new
media
initiatives
or
to
take
over
old
media
titles
which
are
on
the
point
of
of
kind
of
journalistic
death.
Because
of
the
management
model
under
which
they've
been
run.
B
And
most
of
the
points
in
in
our
submission
to
this
committee
are
about
that
they're
about
creating
a
legislative
and
a
funding
and
institutional
environment
which
is
openly
committed
to
public,
conscious
journalism,
which
sees
it
as
a
as
a
collective
good,
which
governments
have
got
a
duty
to
support
as
they've
got
a
duties
to
support
the
arts
or
whatever,
and
and
which
really
works
hard
at
creating
legislative
and
and
other
frameworks.
Administrative
frameworks
which
make
it
as
easy
as
possible
for
communities
or
for
groups
of
journalists
to
launch
those
kinds
of
initiatives.
B
I
mean
there
are
so
many
models
of
how
journalism
can
work
in
the
world.
I
mean.
We
all
know
that
the
guardian
is
owned
by
a
trust
and
and
not
by
a
commercial
owner,
and
we
all
know
that
the
irish
times
is
run
by
a
trust
and
is
a
really
major
national
and
newspaper
operating
a
country
with
a
smaller
population
than
scotland
of
a
kind
that
we
don't
currently
have.
B
And
that
will
support
that
kind
of
journalistic
culture.
Here.
And
I
think,
by
creating
a
new
kind
of
journalism
which
which
does
better
than
these
models.
You're
criticizing
stuart.
And
that
is
the
way
forward,
because
that
will
attract
readers
and
attract
a
younger
generation
of
of
consumers
of
journalism.
And
which
is
what
we
want.
K
Thank
you,
joyce
you'll,
be
pleased
to
know.
I
read
the
irish
times
every
day,
although
I
don't
pay
for
it,
and
I
read
paula
picken,
which
is
copenhagen's
daily
paper.
Mr
google
translate
english
for
me.
Thankfully,
let
me
just
finally,
and
I'm
not
going
to
go
for
a
second
question
and
a
go:
go,
go,
go
to
peter
and
and
just
pick
up
something
that
happened
in
ronald
reagan's
watch
when
he
was
president
of
the
united
states.
K
He
abolished
the
rule
for
broadcasters
and
to
be
unbiased
in
their
politics
and
built
the
platform
that
created
the
obscenity.
That
is
fox
news
today
and
to
what
extent
is
that
the
ownership
and
partisanship
and
ownership
really
at
the
root
of
much
of
the
disconnect
that
there
now
is
between
people
who
want
to
consume
serious
media
and
the
providers
of
media
peter.
D
Yeah
just
well
I'll
pick
up
on
in
kind
of
following
our
pick
up
on
to
the
points
joyce
made
to
what's
interesting
in
scotland
is
what
you've
really
got
is
very,
very
hard-nosed,
for-profit
ownership.
We
don't
really
care,
I
don't
think
very
much
about
what
happens
politically
in
scotland,
which
makes
scotland
very
open,
I
think,
to
some
sort
of
vanity
publishing
that
does
have
an
owner.
That
has
a
particular
agenda.
D
So
that
means,
I
think,
the
scottish
media
landscape
is
weak
and
potential
for
kind
of
that
kind
of
hostile
environment
exists,
but
it
hasn't
really,
I
don't
think
been
capitalized
at
all.
I
think
the
problem
we
have
in
terms
of
ownership
is
more
of
laissez
faire
owners
who
don't
really
care
how
they
work.
They
just
want
their
bottom
line,
but
I
think
that
there's
a
wider
problem
and
it
does
exist
in
terms
of
the
potential
you
know
we
see
with
people
like
rupert
murdoch
and
especially
we
it
does
look
like
we're.
D
We
are
potentially
entering
an
age
where
some
like
regulation,
like
offcom,
could
become
under
much
more
scrutiny,
are
much
more
pressure
to
try
and
like
to
reduce
this
idea
of
impartiality,
we're
seeing
it.
You
know-
and
I
think
there
is,
I
think,
there's
reasons
to
be
concerned
about
that,
but
I
think
it's
almost
it's
important
to
kind
of
separate
out
what
proprietors
want.
If
you
look
at
the
british
media
landscape,
it's
the
big
big
players
in
terms
of
media
are
the
group
that
owns
the
daily
mail.
D
D
Historically,
even
if
it's
not
always
current
at
the
moment
into
the
into
into
the
newspaper
into
the
broadcast
environment,
as
we
know
what's
interesting
about
and
why
that
matters
is
actually
broadcast
is
way
more
trusted
in
newspapers.
Even
online
people
do
trust
broadcasters,
not
just
the
bbc,
but
in
general
people's
views
and
opinions
of
broadcast
news
in
britain
are
much
hired
mayor
of
print
journalism,
whereas
in
in
america
it
actually
has
much
kind
of
a
steeper
lack
of
trust
than
baltimore.
D
So,
rather
than
looking
to
kind
of
to
water
that
down,
I
think
we
what
it's
actually
it's
needed
more
now
than
ever,
is
to
make
sure
and
there's
a
journalist
who's
worked.
I've
worked
under
of
common,
not
under
of
common
off-cameras
for
journalism,
can
be
very
stringent,
but
actually
are
very,
very
good.
They
force
you
to
really
engage
to
make
sure
that
all
of
your
facts
are
right,
because
you
can't
just
it's
not
like,
if
so,
with
the
press
regulation,
where
you
can
just
issue
a
media
management.
D
L
Thank
you
very
much
convina
I
mean
I
noticed
with
interest
in
peter's
submission
when
he
said,
and
I
quote,
the
uk
government
initiative
to
help
journalism
of
primary
primarily
focused
on
providing
stealth
public
support
to
traditional
publishers
and
in
eamonn's
submission.
He
says
that
the
intervention
solutions
could
provide
tax
cuts
for
certain
digital
news
organizations
and
diversity
of
ownership
and
educational
voices
must
be
encouraged,
and
these
have
already
been
covered
to
an
extent
this
morning
and,
of
course,
both
well.
L
Everyone
really
talks
about
the
need
for
a
windfall
tax
model,
which
I
myself
have
raised,
of
course
in
the
chamber.
So
I'm
just
wondering
how
we
actually
can
square
that
circle,
whereby
we
have
a
situation.
Why?
Where
we
do
provide
the
support
required
for
publishers
that
have
not
had
significant
profits
in
previous
years
that
do
represent
local
communities
without
getting
a
huge
frankly
enormous
backlash
from
those
newspapers
that
feel
that
you
know
they
should
get
exac.
D
Yeah,
I'm
happy
to
come
in
that,
I
think,
like
I,
don't
think
it's
necessarily
like.
I
think
it's
not
necessarily
a
matter
of
going
we're
going
to
pick
winners
and
we're
going
to
like
lay
down.
You
know
this
is
this
is
this?
Is
this
is
kind
of
we
want
to
pick
winners
on
on
an
issue
like
this,
but
I
think
there
is
a
really
interesting
kind
of
case
that
can
be
made.
D
They
have
looked
to
just
store
up
the
bottom
line
of
traditional
publishers,
partly
because
traditional
publishers
are
much
better
at
lobbying,
government
and
lobby
and
and
used
are
able
to
use
their
publications
as
mouthpieces
to
make
the
cases
that
they
want,
which
is
perfectly
reasonable,
and
people
do
that
and
it,
but
has
meant
that
the
kind
of
ownership
models
and
kind
of
publications
that
we've
ended
up
to
be
spending
a
lot
of
time.
Talking
about
today.
I
think
the
ones
that
we
realize
are
actually
really
important
for
democracy.
D
The
big
d
word
as
well
that
we
all
feel
is
under
threat
actually
that
those
kind
of
interventions
haven't
worked
at
all.
They
haven't
actually
even
they've
not
been
able
to
avail
of
them
pretty
much
full
stop,
and
I
think
that
makes
the
I
think,
there's
a
real
case
that
can
be
made.
That
says:
okay,
look
we
are
now
going
to
you
know.
Large
newspapers
can
there's
ways
in
which
you
can
help
large
newspapers
government
through
things
like
advertisements,
you
can
decide
to
make.
D
You
know
like
spend
x
amount
of
money
with
large
media
outlets,
which
I
think
is
a
very
reasonable
thing
to
say
in
terms
of
reach.
We
want
to
reach
those
audience
so
here's
advertisements,
but
I
think,
if
you're
going
to
talk
about
targeted
intervention
to
kind
of
promote
the
kind
of
public
interest,
journalism
and
original
journalism
we're
talking
about
and
to
support
local
communities,
it's
quite
clear
that
that
hasn't
worked.
D
You
know
the
engagement
with
the
big
media
organizations
hasn't
worked.
The
attempts
to
try
and
get
that
to
filter
down
hasn't
worked.
So
I
think,
there's
a
really
compelling
case
to
be
made
for
trying
to
do
something
different
for
trying
to
promote
diversity
and
plurality,
and
that
can
be
done
in
a
way
that
encourages
you
know.
D
I
don't
think
it's
that
hard
to
imagine
creative
solutions
that
encourages
large
media
organizations
go
down
that
route
too,
and
I
think
there's
that's
an
aspect
of
drafting
more
than
it
is
of
saying
you
know
this
is
a
this
is
only
open
to
you,
but
I
think
there
is
a
need
to
kind
of
to
separate
that
out
and
go
okay.
This
hasn't
worked
in
that
model.
What
we
do
that
could
work
in
the
future
that
does
promote
that
kind
of
plurality.
C
Is
that
what
joyce
was
mentioning,
which
is,
we
should
there's
a
way
that
government
can
make
it
easier
for
new
media
entities
to
to
build
and
to
begin
and
to
build
and
to
launch?
I
think
that's
partly
the
way
forward,
sure
I'm
all
for
stealth
intervention
and
support.
I
understand
the
concept
I
can
see.
You've.
C
It
always
remains
with
henry
ford
when
he
said.
If
you
ask
people
what
they
want,
they
would
have
seen
a
faster
horse,
not
a
car,
because
and
in
some
ways.
That's
where
we'll
act,
because
people
are
looking
at
a
different
generation
who
are
using
different
different
devices.
Different
means
to
access
the
news
and
yet
they're
wondering
why
there's
decline
in
paper
sales,
because
the
owners,
the
publishers,
are
not
investing
in
coming
up
with
new
models
fast
enough
to
actually
replace
the
one
they've
got,
and
why
is
that?
C
Because
it
suits
them
not
that
they're
making
profits.
It
goes
back
to
what
one
of
your
colleagues
was
saying
about:
diversity
of
ownership,
I've
all
for
stealth
support,
I'm
all
for
the
advertising
and
everything
else.
I
think
we've
got
to
have
a
break
with
the
past
as
well,
and
support
new
media
organizations
went
to
the
fair,
the
one
with.
C
Themselves
from
the
ground
up,
I
see
even
with
my
students
who
come
up
with
the
most
innovative
ways
to
tackle
problems
with
no
money,
and
they
do
it
now,
but
it's
finally
better
than
a
lot
of
the
local
newspapers
do
why?
Because
they've
actually
been
encouraged
to
do
so,
you
go
into
many
local
newspapers,
as
peter
said
before.
It's
all
about
journalism,
they're
not
getting
the
impetus,
the
vision,
the
enthusiasm
and
the
backing
from
the.
C
L
Thanks
and
and
enjoy
just
before,
I
turn
to
you
with
regard
to
the
can
cross
report,
I'm
quite
interested
in
that
the
uk
government
accept
recommendation
for
which
is
developing
a
a
media
literacy
strategy,
basically
and
said
they
plan
to
publish
that
in
the
summer
of
2020.
Obviously,
covered
is
likely
to
have
kicked
that
into
touch
and
again,
and
they
also
supported
recommendation
six,
which
says
the
government
should
launch
a
new
fund
focused
on
innovations
aimed
at
improving
the
supply.
Public
interest
needs
to
be
run
by
an
independent
body.
L
B
B
So
I'm
not
I'm
not
sure
that
much
progress
will
be
made
at
uk
level
at
scottish
level.
As
I
said,
the
cabinet
secretary
had
had
discussions
with
francis
came
across
and
during
the
course
of
of
of
the
writing
of
that
report
and
and
the
cabinet
secretary
is
in
the
in
the
process
at
this
moment
of
setting
up
a
committee
on
public
interest
news
in
scotland,
a
short-term
working
group
on
the
subject.
B
You
know,
a
subject
of
much
debate.
But
I
think,
if
you
could
develop
a
good,
robust
arms
length
system
of
governance
for
a
foundation
like
that,
then
it
could
make
decisions
about
which
innovative
media
projects,
for
instance,
to
support,
and
that
would
that
would
free
government
ministers,
as
it
were,
from
the
charge
that
they
were
just
manipulating
the
media
to
suit
themselves.
And
so
in
that
sense
I
think
it's
really
worth
considering
the
idea
of
having
a
public
interest
news
foundation.
B
That
would
that
would
that
would
do
some
of
that
work
and
I
think
it's
it's
certainly
well
worth
and
considering
the
idea
of
reshaping
the
the
environment,
the
legislative
environment,
the
charitable
status
environment,
all
of
these
other
rules
and
regulations
in
ways
that
make
life
as
easy
as
possible
for
new
media
initiatives
and,
frankly,
I
think
to
to
just
add
to
the
more
robust
point
eamon
was
making.
I
think,
if
old
news
media,
which
have
failed
to
adapt
very
well
to
the
changing
landscape.
Don't
like
that,
then
you
know
it's
too
bad.
B
The
fact
is,
we
need
a
new,
a
more
diverse
media
landscape
that
actually
finds
the
money
to
pay
journalists
to
do
serious
journalism,
and
you
know
if
government
can
intervene
creatively
in
that
in
arms
length,
ways
which
don't
open
it
and
to
the
accusation
that
it's
just
funding
media
bodies
and
to
support
itself.
Then
I
think
government
should
do
that
and
I
think
there's
the
potential
in
scotland
to
do
it
in
quite
an
interesting
and
creative
ways.
That
would
make
a
genuine
difference
to
our
media
landscape.
Here.
L
Thanks
yeah,
I
mean,
I
think
you
know,
I
thought
it
was
an
excellent
team
analogy.
You
know,
you
know,
don't
buy
a
car,
get
a
horse
to
try
and
run
faster.
I
think
that's
a
really
interesting
way
of
looking
at
it,
but
in
terms
of
keeping
on
with
this
issue
of
perhaps
having
a
foundation,
you
know,
obviously
there
would
be.
There
could
be
some
real
controversy
about
who
was
funded,
how
much
they
were
funded
by
what
the
geographic
spread
would
that
be?
You
know
I
mean
I
represent
ayrshire,
would
would
it
be
white?
L
Would
each
area
of
scotland
be
be
able
to
equally
access
such
resources
because
they
don't
in
terms
of,
for
example,
arts
funding
in
scotland
and
and
what
kind
of
resource
do
you
feel
would
be
realistic
in
terms
of
establishing
such
a
foundation,
because,
obviously
it
would
have
to
have
significant
funding
that
funding
would
have
to
be?
I
would
imagine
long-term
and
not
one-off,
so
what
kind
of
resources
would
we
really
be
talking
about
on
an
annualized
basis?
B
B
But
you
know
if
you
were
looking
at
that
as
a
kind
of
long-term
aspiration
for
the
kind
of
intervention
and
you
were
looking
at
and
then
you
know
that
kind
of
some
could
really
be
quite
transformative.
I
think
in
this
in
the
current
scottish
media
scene,
but
it
would
have
to
be
very,
very
carefully
administered
and,
as
you
say,
there
would
be
101
controversial
decisions
to
make
about
the
governance
of
anybody.
B
That
really
supports
you
know
active
and
well-informed
citizenship
and
for
focusing,
for
instance,
educational
activity
around
this
subject,
whether
it's
aimed
at
young
people
or,
as
has
been
suggested,
older
age
groups.
That
might
perhaps
need
it
just
as
much,
and
so
you
know
I.
I
think
there
is
a
lot
to
be
said
for
the
finding
of
of
an
institution
like
this,
even
if
initially
it
doesn't
have
much
in
the
way
of
funding,
and
but
hopefully
it
could
also
have
a
kind
of
mixed
funding
model
that
would
take
some
of
the
burden
off
government.
B
D
Very
quickly,
just
very
quickly
as
well.
There
is
actually
some
cost
neutral
things
that
could
be
done,
like
I
mentioned
in
my
submission
making
public
interest
during
the
charitable
good,
which
would
just
require
a
change
of
legislation
at
the
at
the
at
the
charities,
office,
scholarships,
office
and
regulation.
So
there's
there's
other
options
as
well,
which
I
think
would
be
part
of
that
package.
E
The
sterling
observer
in
the
area
I
represent
is,
is
a
great
local
champion
and
and
runs
a
number
of
local
campaigns
in
this
area.
So
does
the
panel
still
see
this
as
the
fundamental
purpose
of
a
local
newspaper
from
a
demo,
a
democratic
point
of
view,
or
should
they
be
doing
more
than
that
core
competence?
So
maybe
I'll
start
with
joyce
then
move
to
peter
and
then
aim
and
please.
B
Well,
I
mean
far
be
it
for
me
to
tell
the
editors
of
local
newspapers
how
to
run
their
newspapers.
I
mean
really
in
a
context
where
you
have
a
viable
economic
model
and-
and
you
know,
you
kind
of
board
a
journalistic
team
that
can,
I
think,
running
a
good
local
newspaper
is
probably
one
of
the
most
rewarding
jobs
in
the
world.
B
You
know,
because
you
get
immediate
feedback
and
you
know
you
have
a
close
relationship
with
your
community
and
you're
really
doing
the
business
and
that
journalism
is
there
to
do,
and
I
think
and
definitely
of
course,
news
is
important.
I
mean
it's
interesting
actually
that
in
the
current
sort
of
fragile
state
of
british
journalism,
quite
a
small
intervention
like
the
bbc
democracy
reporting
scheme,
can
actually
have
a
very
big
impact.
B
But
I
think
obviously,
because
we're
politicians
and
and
journalists
interested
in
politics,
we
tend
to
talk
a
lot
about
political
news
and
sort
of
hard
news
and
events
news.
But
I
do
think,
as
I
said
before,
that
one
of
the
key
roles
of
local
media
and
of
all
good
media
is
to
try
and
cover
the
whole
range
of
life
that
is
going
on
in
an
area.
So
you
know
covering
arts
and
cultural
activities
terribly
important.
You
know
the
review
of
the
local
operatic
doing
its
its
thing.
B
B
Any
of
these
areas
does
cost
money,
and
this
whole
effort
at
the
moment
at
this
kind
of
turning
point
in
the
history
of
journalism,
is
to
try
and
unleash
resources
that
can
actually
pay
people
to
do
these
jobs.
I
mean
it's
an
area
like
the
arts,
really
where
people
do
tend
to
love
their
work
and
they
don't
want
huge
salaries.
You
know
it's
only
the
people
in
head
office
that
get
huge
and
salaries
journalists
on
the
grounds
are
quite
happy.
D
Yeah
and
well
just
to
follow
up,
I
am
on
on
some
of
the
points
joyce
rates.
I
think
there's
there's
a
real
opportunity
actually
now
you
know
if
you
think
about
the
kind
of
conversation
having
today
about
like
you're
talking
about
the
decline
in
the
press,
but
you're
always
talking
about
young
people
access
they,
we
and
actually
not
just
young
people
in
general,
we
all
consume
far
more
journalism
than
we
ever
did
before.
D
D
The
role
of
public
interest
journalism
is
really
important,
but
actually
it's
an
opportunity
to
teach
people
about
citizenship,
about
democracy,
about
active
citizenship,
about
engagement,
there's
lots
of
opportunities
that
can
come
from
from
that
this
kind
of
journalistic
model,
where
you,
and
especially
once
you
take
it
off
the
idea
of
just
this
thing.
That
happens
once
a
week
as
a
printed
edition
or
once
every
day
as
a
printed
edition.
There's
you
know
there's
up.
We
do
some
with
the
fair,
but
there's
things
like
communities,
community
development
aspects.
We
do
a
lot
of
trainings.
D
Now,
increasingly
you
know
in
the
virtual
world,
but
in
in
the
real
world
as
well.
There's
real
opportunities,
I
think,
for
journalists
become
much
more
embedded
in
their
communities,
which
is
what
a
lot
of
journalists
want
to
do,
as
well
speaking
to
the
point
of
choice,
races
about
finances.
Also,
a
lot
of
journalists
want
to
be
embedded
in
the
communities
that
they're
operating.
They
want
to
be
beat
journalists,
they
want
to
be
part
of
the
community
and
I
think
that's
got.
D
They
provide-
and
I
think,
over
2000
paying
members,
but
also
have
you
know,
regular
agm's,
regular
meetings,
but
also
have
people
going
into
community
and
teaching
skills
and
skills
transfer
and
as
journalists
point
to
the
original
news.
That's
where
great
stories
come
from
too.
That's
where
the
like
good
quality
journalism
comes
from,
it's
getting
away
from
behind
the
desk,
getting
out
into
communities
and
engaging
with
people,
and
some
of
that
can
be
done
virtually
as
well,
of
course,
but
it's
about
that
kind
of
community
engagement.
D
That
is
work
which
drives
a
lot
of
really
strong
journalism.
So
I
think,
there's
a
real
opportunity
actually
to
see
some
of
what
we're
seeing,
not
necessarily
all
as
okay.
This
is
all
terrible,
because
actually
people
are
consuming
content,
it's
about.
How
do
we
meet
them
where
they
are?
How
do
we
engage
in
ways
that
they
are
and
how
do
we
actually
as
journalists
and
as
people
who
want
to
support
journalism?
C
When
the
government
is
encouraging
people
to
download
an
app
during
the
pandemic,
we
find
ourselves
trying
to
work
out
by
a
newspaper
model.
A
business
model
that
was
invented
nearly
200
years
ago
was
feeling
to
think
about
that.
If
you
had
10
million
pounds
right
now,
what
kind
of
newspaper
would
you
build?
The
answer
would
be
you,
wouldn't
you
would
put
it
online
and
have
a
print
edition
once
or
twice
a
week
if
you
were
lucky,
you
had
also
something
that
was
completely
relevant.
C
That
was
available
24
hours,
seven
days
a
week
I
was
as
peter
was
saying,
was
also
embedded
in
the
community.
I
wasn't
waiting
on
the
community
coming
to
name
with
news.
It
was
going
out
actually
looking
for
it.
The
reality
is
that
most
citizens
in
scotland
will
actually
know
that
amazon
delivery
person
better
than
they
will
know
the
local
journalist
they
stop
and
think
about
that.
Why
is
that
and
is
the
publishers?
Are
the
publishers
delivering
something
which
is
fit
for
purpose
for
the
21st
century?
C
I
would
say
no,
obviously,
the
models
that
we've
got
are
completely
outdated
and
trying
to
plug
the
holes
in
them
is
not
going
to
help
anybody
in
the
long
term
here
or
even
the
medium
term.
I
think
what
we
need
is
radical
intervention
and
we
need
to
come
up
with
a
new
way
of
skinning
the
fact
they
put
the
bluntly
and
if
that
involves
everything
from
engaging
with
the
publishers,
I'm
also
encouraging
them.
Maybe
both
australian
spec
actually
come
up
with
new
ways
of
doing
things,
innovating
things
I
think
that's
the
way
forward.
C
I
think
it's
no
use
just
subsidizing,
something
which
is
already
proven,
not
what
and
be
open.
That's
it's
stripping
very,
very
easily
and
very
quickly
under
a
constant
and
continuous
sort
of
way,
I'm
all
in
favor
of
actually
making
the
whole
model
a
brand
new
one
and
trying
to
and
trying
to
encourage
younger
people
to
engage
with
it
at
their
level,
usually
using
the
tools
that
they've
already
got.
It's
been
proven.
C
E
A
Thank
you
very
much
dean
and
thank
you
very
much
to
our
panel.
There's
lots
more
questions.
I
would
like
to
ask,
but
we've
run
over
time,
which
perhaps
is
inevitable
when
you
put
nine
politicians
and
three
journalists
in
a
virtual
room
together,
so
it's
been
a
fascinating
discussion.
Can
I
thank
all
of
our
witnesses
today
for
both
written
and
their
oral
contributions,
and
the
committee
will
consider
the
evidence
held
in
private
shortly.
That
concludes
the
public
part
of
this
morning's
meeting.