►
Description
Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee
A
And
welcome
to
the
21st
meeting
of
the
cultural
tourism,
europe
and
external
affairs
committee
and
our
11th
remote
meeting.
I
welcome
stuart
stevenson
msp
to
the
committee,
who
has
replaced
stuart
mcmillan
msp
as
a
member
of
the
committee.
Jerry
macmillan
is,
however,
joining
us
at
his
request
for
the
first
agenda
item
in
the
meeting.
A
B
A
And
thank
you
very
much
for
for
that.
Mr
stevenson.
That
is
noted.
Our
first
agenda
item
is
evidence
on
the
committee's
commissioned
external
research
on
checks
on
goods
imported
into
the
european
union,
and
can
I
welcome
to
the
meeting
the
offer
of
the
external
research
anna
yerievska,
a
customs
and
trade
consultant.
Dr
yayevka
is
a
globally
recognized
customs
and
international
trade
policy
specialist,
with
a
combination
of
extensive
theoretical
knowledge
and
years
of
practical
experience
in
delivering
solutions
for
real
firms
facing
real
problems.
A
With
regards
to
customs,
anna
has
worked
as
a
customs
consultant
for
three
of
the
big
four
advisory
firms:
pwc
ey
and
kpmg
in
london,
where
she
advised
clients
on
a
wide
range
of
global
trade
and
customs
issues.
In
recent
years,
her
main
reoccurring
clientele
have
been
the
united
nations
international
trade
center,
british
chambers
of
commerce
and
assorted
private
sector
firms
and
governments.
He
is
an
associate
fellow
of
the
uk
trade
policy
observatory
before
we
hear
from
anna.
A
I
would
like
to
remind
members
to
give
broadcasting
staff
a
few
seconds
to
operate
your
microphones
before
beginning
to
ask
your
question
or
to
provide
an
answer.
If
you're
a
witness
and
I'll
be
grateful
if
questions
and
answers
could
be
kept
as
succinct
as
possible,
if
we
have
time
at
the
end,
I
shall
bring
members
back
for
supplementaries,
but
I
would
ask
members
to
restrict
themselves
to
two
questions
on
this
occasion.
A
C
C
While
I
altered
the
report,
as
you
can
obviously
appreciate
it
covers
customs,
it
covers
sps
and
technical
barriers
to
trade
and,
as
a
result,
it's
a
cross
course
area
report
in
in
many
ways,
and
I
wouldn't
be
able
to
write
this
report
without
the
help
of
two
consultants
that
that
contributed
to
this
report.
This
is
emily
reese
on
sps
measures
and
dr
peter
holmes
on
technical
buyers
to
trade.
C
They
both
there
they
they
are
not
here
today,
obviously,
but
they
both
very
kindly
agreed
to
provide
any
additional
information
or
answer
your
questions
in
writing.
Should
there
be
a
need,
if
there's
something
that
exceeds
the
the
report
in
these
two
areas,
they'll
be
happy
to
help
after
this
session.
A
I
will
begin
with
the
first
questions
and
then
be
followed
by
claire
baker
and
the
research
outlines
in
great
detail
some
of
the
trade
barriers
we
would
face
under
wto
agreements
and
even
under
free
trade
agreements
such
as
those
of
canada
or
japan,
or
association
agreements
such
as
the
ukraine
has
with
the
eu.
Of
course,
it
looks
extremely
unlikely
that
the
uk
will
achieve
a
free
trade
agreement,
so
we're
just
focusing
I'm
focusing
on
my
questions
on
wto
arrangements.
A
C
Well,
that's
obviously
a
big
question
in
terms
of
red
tape.
I
guess
I
guess
you
can
you
can
you
can
kind
of
look
at
it
in
two
different
ways?
You
have
the
red
tape
in
terms
of
kind
of
behind
the
border
regulation,
and
then
you
have,
as
you
mentioned,
border
regulation
and
you're
absolutely
right
in
terms
of
borders.
Brexit
definitely
increases
the
amount
of
red
tape,
because
at
the
moment
we
don't
have
internal
borders.
C
Other
checks,
other
requirements.
So
there
will
be
quite
a
significant
amount
of
additional
work
that
comes
with
with
having
a
new
customs
and
regulatory
border,
and,
that's
again,
that's,
I
think,
perhaps
you're
right
that
it
might
take
some
people
by
surprise.
I
think
we've
you
know
in
a
way,
we've
forgotten
what
it's
like
to
trade
under
wto
rules,
just
because
we've
been
a
member
of
the
eu
for
such
a
long
time.
A
Sure
well,
thank
you
thanks
very
much
for
that.
That's
very
helpful.
One
of
the
people
we
did
speak
to
recently
about
about
customs
and
regulations
and
committee
was
michael
gove,
the
chancellor
of
the
duchy
of
lancaster,
who
gave
evidence
to
the
committee
in
june
this
year,
and
I
asked
him
about
the
possibility
of
checks
between
the
uk
and
northern
ireland
and
the
report
and
kian
ryan
and
michael
gove
were
at
that.
A
However,
the
overwhelming
majority
of
trade
between
the
uk
and
northern
ireland
is
intra-uk
and
he
said
that
the
protocol
would
safeguard
the
good
friday
agreement
and
ensure
that
there's
unfettered
access
for
goods
that
are
circulating
in
the
united
kingdom
and
northern
ireland
and
it
would
enable
provisions
to
ensure
that
there
was
no
physical
infrastructure
at
the
border
between
northern
ireland
and
the
republic
of
ireland.
Indeed,
no
physical
infrastructure.
He
said
here
in
the
uk
and
southwest
scotland
now.
A
C
Well,
I
can't
comment
on
why
he
he
said
that
there's
definitely
quite
a
lot
in
this
response.
There's
quite
a
lot
of
points.
I
think
the
key
one
is
the
fact
that
we
cannot
at
this
point,
determine
which
goods
are
going
to
northern
ireland
and
which
goods
are
at
risk
of
going
into
the
republic
of
ireland.
That's
one
of
the
things
that
the
joint
committee
under
the
protocol
was
supposed
to
agree
on
and
establish
a
way
to
to
determine
that
that
hasn't
been
done.
That's
something
that
the
the
joint
committee
postponed
until
this
autumn.
C
C
So
that's
one
of
the
things
that,
at
the
point
at
this
point,
we
don't
have
any
any
way
and
any
facility
to
to
determine
where
the
goods
are
bound
to
and
what's
what's
the
risk
so
saying
that
goods
that
are
not
at
risk
of
moving
into
the
republic
of
ireland
will
not
be
subject
to
certain
procedures?
Is
is
quite
difficult
at
the
moment,
because
we
don't
have
a
way
to
determine
that.
That's
one
thing.
The
second
thing
is
around
checks
and
and
requirements,
and
these
requirements
being
submitted
electronically.
C
The
fact
that
customers
procedures
will
be
done
electronically
doesn't
in
any
way
facilitate
trade.
I
mean
in
in
a
way
it
does,
but
basically,
what
I'm
trying
to
say
is
that
the
majority
of,
if
not
all,
customs
procedures
are
already
done
electronically.
That's
that's
not
that
the
kind
of
the
way
how
you
submit
these
forms
is
not
the
problem.
C
The
problem
is
there,
as
you
mentioned
all
the
data
fields,
the
information
that
needs
to
be
gathered,
and
so
on
and
again
coming
back
to
the
whole,
no
checks
for
movements
from
gb
to
ni.
I
think
that's
one
of
the
misconceptions,
that's
something
that's
been
discussed
quite
a
lot
and
whenever
you
hear
in
the
past
johnson
mentioned
several
times
that
there
will
be
no
checks
and
again
checks-
and
I
mentioned
this
in
the
report
as
well.
C
Checks
and
requirements
are
two
different
things,
just
because
checks
are
not
necessarily
conducted
or
checks
are
conducted
only
on
high-risk
goods
or
a
very
limited
percentage
of
of
movements
doesn't
mean
that
it
makes
it
any
any.
More
and
easier
for,
for
traders
is
the
requirements
and
the
documentary
requirements
that
the
forms
the
the
kind
of
the
the
all
the
work
that
traders
need
to
do
before
they
export
goods.
That
is
the
burden
that
it
makes
the
difference
just.
A
A
C
Some
delay,
yeah,
I
mean
there's,
there's
always
a.
I
think.
That's
also
an
important
part
to
make
we
we
don't
have
borders
without
infrastructure
that
does
not
exist.
You
always
have
infrastructure.
You
have,
because
when
you
have,
you
know
you
have.
If
you
have
any
checks,
you
need,
you
need
people
to
to
conduct
them.
C
You
need
people
to
check
the
forms.
You
need
people
to
to
check
the
goods
you
need.
You
need
to
people
place
to
a
place.
To
do
that,
you
need,
if
you
have
a
good
that
or
a
truck
that
you
consider
high
risk
or
suspicious.
You
need
somewhere
to
kind
of
stop
the
truck
that
doesn't
stop
the
flow
of
traffic
and
examine
it.
Look
at
the
document
and
so
on.
So
there's
always
infrastructure.
I
think
the
key
phrase
mentioned
by
both
goff
and
and
bar
johnson
was
no
new
infrastructure.
C
I
think
that
was
in
the
command
paper
on
northern
ireland,
where
the
uk
outlined
its
understanding
of
how
this
will
be
implemented.
The
the
phrase
was
new,
no
new
infrastructure,
which
obviously
we
don't
necessarily
know
what
that
means.
If
you
already
have
a
port,
what
constitutes
new
infrastructure,
if
you
add
stuff
and
additional
desks
and
and
perhaps
expand
on
the
building,
is
that
new
infrastructure
or
is
that
existing
infrastructure?
So
I
think
that's
that's
where
the
the
kind
of
that's
where
the
details?
D
And
thank
you
convener.
I
was
interested
in
the
report
that
we
were
given
the
other
examples
of
eu
trading
relationships,
and
I
had
a
couple
of
questions.
I
suppose
what
would
be
the
key
thing
to
think
we
could
learn
from
other
countries,
trading
agreements
they've
made
with
the
eu,
and
it
did
appear
looking
through
that
they
do
develop
over
time.
There'll
be
additional
mechanisms
or
simplifications
that
are
added
in.
C
Thank
you
I'll
start
with
the
second
question.
Perhaps
yes,
relationships
develop
additional
agreements.
Supplementary
agreements
can
be
added.
If
you
look
at
the
number
of
trade
agreements,
a
lot
of
them
leave
provision
or
include
a
provisional
leave
the
doors
open
for
additional
negotiations,
additional
consultations
and
additional
simplifications
in
in
the
future.
So
if
we
do
end
up
having
a
idea
which
would
be
a
free
trade
agreement
type
of
deal,
it
will
very
likely
include
provisions
for
additional
corporation
joint
committees,
joint
corporation
and
so
on.
C
So
that
could
happen
over
time
with
no
deal
in
an
audi
scenario.
There's
also
an
option
for
that.
A
deal
could
be
kind
of
in
a
smaller
sense
could
be
could
be
agreed
on,
for
example,
mutual
recognition
or
so
on,
going
forward.
So
so
there
is
this
possibility,
I
think,
with
any
deal
the
question
or
the
most
important
part
of
the
of
the
of
the
process
is
political
will
on
on
both
sides.
C
Obviously,
if
we
end
up
with
a
no
deal
scenario,
the
question
is:
how
soon
will
parties
be
ready
to
come
back
to
the
negotiating
table
and
restart
the
process?
And
I
guess
to
a
certain
extent,
this
will
depend
on
at
what
in
what
on
what
terms
they
will
leave
that
negotiation
process.
At
the
moment
we
obviously
have
a
bit
of
a
difficult
situation,
but
but
we
still
have
some
time
to
to
to
perhaps
reach
a
compromise.
So
that's
an
answer
to
your
first
question.
C
But
the
difference
is
while
they
are
significant
in
in
some
areas.
Overall,
are
not
that
great.
If
you
have
a
border,
you
will
have
requirements
at
the
border.
You
have
additional
paperwork
and
in
particular
in
my
area
and
customs,
the
differences
are
quite
small,
so
whether
we
have
a
deal
or
not,
we
will
have
customs
declarations
whether
we
have
a
deal
or
not.
We
will
have
perhaps
free
notifications
as
well.
C
So
I
think
that's
that's
one
of
the
most
important
parts
is
that
the
changes
are
coming,
whether
whether
we
end
up
with
a
deal
or
or
not
another
part
in
other
parts,
probably
worth
mentioning,
is
that
there
are
various
elements
as
and
again-
and
I
think
it's
explained
in
the
report
in
in
in
terms
of
these
three
areas,
so
customs,
sps
requirements
and
tbt
requirements,
technical
barriers
to
trade
they're.
Very-
these
are
three
very
different
areas,
and
not
all
agreements
cover
them
to
a
certain
certain
extent.
C
So,
just
because
we
have
an
agreement
just
if
we,
if
we
end
up
having
a
free
trade
agreement,
it
doesn't
necessarily
mean
that
there's
a
set
a
type
of
an
agreement
it
will.
We
would
still
need
to
see
what's
in
that
agreement,
to
know
what's
going
to
happen
at
the
border.
That
makes
sense
so
and
having
a
deal
a
deal
is
not
a
kind
of
a
set
in
stone
idea
will
still
vary
depending
on
what's
agreed
between
the
parties.
D
How
do
you
think
that
would
impact
on
the
type
of
goods
that
the
uk
trades
with
utep
is
a
significant
difference
between
what
we
currently
trade
and
what
other
countries
who
are
in
different
areas
who
aren't
part
of
a
single
market
and
the
customs
union?
What
type
of
things
that
they
trade?
Do
you
think
it
would
make
a
difference
to
our
markets.
C
C
So
this
additional
cost
again,
if
you
have
a
long-term
relationship
with
your
supplier
in
the
eu
and
it's
a
good
relationship
and
the
products
you
provide
are
of
of
the
quality.
That,
perhaps
is
you
know
difficult
to
find
somewhere
else.
That
might
continue
that
relations
might
continue.
If,
if,
in
some
cases
it
won't
continue
in
some
cases,
eu
suppliers
will
find
alternative
sources
closer
to
home.
C
It
just
makes
things
slightly
more
expensive
and
slightly
more
time-consuming
and
again,
I
think
there
will
be
also
a
bit
of
learning
curve
in
terms
of
how
companies
on
both
sides
will
adjust
to
the
change.
I
think
over
time
it
might
be
that
companies
in
the
uk
will
find
a
way
to
be
more
competitive
and
and
make
their
products
attractive
in
on
the
eu
market,
despite
the
additional
costs.
But
it's
very
difficult
to
to
comment
on
the
kind
of
composition
of
trade
after
brexit.
E
E
In
that
regard,
I
think
there
was
a
reference
the
other
day
to
a
uk
government
document
which
suggested
that
there
could
be
these
massive
lorry
parks
and
kent
with
lorries
queuing
for
two
days
and
thousands
upon
thousands
of
lorries
queuing
up,
and
I
just
wonder
in
terms
of
the
the
work
that
you've
been
doing-
is
that
something
that
the
business
is
is
kind
of
just
accepting.
Now
that
that's
how
trade
is
to
continue
from
the
1st
of
january
next
year,.
C
Yes,
thank
you.
Thank
you
for
that
question.
It
it
again.
It's
it's
a
big
question
in
in
a
way,
I
think,
to
start
with
it
will
be.
It
will
be
worth
mentioning
that
we
don't
necessarily.
We
don't
necessarily
know
how
things
are
going
to
work
at
the
border.
In
a
recent
select
committee,
I've
been
asked
to
provide
a
percentage
of
in
terms
of
how
certain
I
am
that
there
will
be
chaos
in
kent
and
I
think
I've
given
70
to
80.
C
However,
it's
it's
quite
difficult
to
predict.
The
reason
for
that
is
a
border
is
a
very
kind
of
complex
process.
There's
a
number
of
parties
that
need
to
be
ready
and
again
in
order
for
everything
to
work
smoothly.
You
have
you
have
the
government,
with
its
new
I.t
system
and
new
processes
and
new
guidance
and
so
on.
So
the
government
needs
to
provide
the
information
that
it
needs
to
provide
on
time
with
enough
time
for
traders
and
any
other
operators
to
familiarize
themselves
with
this
information
and
and
implement
it.
C
Then
you
have
whole
years
and
customs
brokers,
and
we
know
that
there's
an
issue
there
in
terms
of
lack
of
sufficient
amounts
of
customs
brokers
and-
and
there
might
be
shortages
in
that
res.
In
that
respect,
we
also
have
port
operators
that
have
their
own
I.t
systems
and
their
own
processes,
and
they
need
to
be
ready.
They
need
to
have
enough
information
and
their
id
systems
need
to
learn.
C
They
need
to
connect
to
government
I.t
systems,
and
then
obviously
you
have
traders
who
will
need
to
provide
information
to
all
the
other
parties
and
so
on.
So
there's
a
number
of
players,
a
number
of
I.t
systems.
Some
of
these
iot
systems
do
not
currently
exist.
We
don't
necessarily
have
visibility
of
the
full
operating
model.
We
have
a
kind
of
an
initial
version
of
the
full
operating
model.
We
are
waiting
for
further
information,
but
it's
all
I
think
the
biggest
worry
here
is
that
it's
all
being
done
last
minute.
I
think
that's.
C
There
will
be
lines
there
will
be
difficulties
because
of
the
kind
of
initial
chaos
and
uncertainty
as
to
what
all
parties
should
be
should
should
do.
I
think,
over
time.
This
will.
This
will
change.
I
think
over
time,
companies
and
holiers
and
ports
will
find
a
way
to
operate
and
we'll
figure
it
out.
But
initially
there
might
be
difficulties
because
of
lack
of
information
and
because
of
the
fact
that
we're
not
prepared-
and
we
probably
should
have
had
a
bit
more
information
earlier
on
in
the
year-
to
leave
ourselves
more
time.
E
Thank
you
for
that.
You
mentioned
you
mentioned
it
systems
now.
I
understand
that
there
was
a
a
report
in
the
press
this
week
that
the
uk
government's
I.t
system,
which
I
think
is
called
smart
freight
web
service,
is
to
go
online
operational
from
first
january.
However,
it
has
not
been
beta
tested
and
I
have
checked
I'm
not
a
computer
person,
what
beta
testing
means
and
it
means
any
the
final
testing
of
a
product
before
it
goes
to
market,
so
they
don't
expect
the
beta
testing
to
be
completed
until
at
least
april.
E
C
Yes,
absolutely
it's
it's
not
optimal,
and
I
think
it's
it's
worth
pointing
out
that
the
system
you
mentioned
was
designed
as
a
backup
option
for
the
system
that
was
originally
going
to
be
used.
Gvms,
good
vehicles,
movement
system,
which
was
supposed
to
be
the
the
the
kind
of
the
main
system
as
of
the
1st
of
january,
because
it
was
at
some
point.
The
government
realized
that
it
will
not
be
ready
in
its
full
capability
and
functionality.
C
On
the
1st
of
january
as
a
backup
system
as
a
fallback
option,
this
new
other
system
was
was
designed
which,
probably
if
you
don't
have
time
to
develop
one
it
system
setting
as
other
iot
system
as
a
backup
option.
It's
probably
not
the
best
way
to
go,
but
yeah
this
system
was,
it
was
a
backup
option
and
it's
key
function.
C
C
Without
that
system
ready,
there
will
have
to
be
some
other
fallback
systems
or
or
ways
to
deal
with
traffic
and
to
deal
with
with
that
outgoing
lack
of
the
journey,
because,
on
the
import
side,
we
have
the
simplifications
that
uk
government
introduced
that
might
and
are
very
likely
to
help
in
terms
of
managing
the
inbound
traffic.
But
the
outbound
part
of
the
journey
is
where
we
have
problems
at
the
moment
and
again
without
this
I.t
system,
I'm
not
entirely
sure
what
procedure
we
have
the
operation
bar.
C
E
Well,
it's
all
very
gloomy,
and
if,
if
this
smart
freight
it
system
was
the
backup
to
the
first
system
that
they
could
get
to
work
and
this
system
hasn't
been
tested,
it's
very
difficult
to
see
what
could
be
done
between
now
the
first
of
january
2021
in
terms
of
a
third
option-
and
I
just
wonder
in
my
last
question-
convener.
If
I
may,
you
know.
Obviously,
at
the
moment
we
have
frictionless
trade
in
the
single
market,
customs
union.
C
Yes,
thank
you
very
much.
Absolutely.
We
will
not
have
a
friction.
Less
trade
there's
no
such
thing
as
frictionless
trade
outside
of
the
single
market
and
the
past
union.
That's
I
mean
the
eu
is
the
highest
form
of
economic
integration
and
and
that's
what
we
get
as
a
result
outside
will
always
have
some
sort
of
affection,
as
all
borders
do
in
terms
of
trader
readiness,
it's
it's
and
again
it's
a
complex
question
because,
on
one
hand,
there's
this
notion
that
companies
had
four
years
to
prepare.
C
For
the
majority
of
this
time
there
was
great
uncertainty
and
for
a
company
under
under
such
pressure,
I
mean-
I
think
companies
in
general
have
been
put
in
a
very
difficult
situation
here,
because
preparing
for
something
that
you're
not
necessarily
sure
what
is
going
to
look
like
is
quite
difficult
and
for
a
company
to
be
able
to
prepare
it's,
not
the
high
level
information
that
needs.
It
doesn't
need
to
necessarily
know
whether
it's
going
to
be
a
customs
union,
an
fta.
It
needs
the
operating
details.
It's
need
that
needs
the
tariffs.
C
C
So
if
we
have
again
coming
back
to
this
readiness
point,
if
we
have
full
information
by
december,
the
goods
are
already
on
routes,
the
goods
already
being
shipped.
So,
as
we
had
twice
already
with
the
previous
deadlines,
we
have
a
situation
where
traders
are
ordering
goods
or
purchasing
goose
without
knowing,
under
which
conditions
in
which
trading
terms.
C
These
goods
will
arrive
in
the
uk,
which
is
a
completely
unprecedented
situation
and
and
not
really
a
situation
that
any
business
should
be
in
so
that,
that's,
I
guess,
that's
one
one
part
of
it.
Coming
back
to
what
you
said
about
the
pandemic,
I
think
again,
a
number
of
businesses
left
their
brexit
readiness
preparations
until
the
2020
until
2020.
C
Obviously,
unfortunately,
this
was
the
moment
when
the
pandemic
hit
and
businesses
were
completely
inside
the
sidelines
and
with
with
with
covet
19..
Now,
with
the
time
that
we
have
left,
we
not
only
have
a
potential
second
wave
and
the
impact
that
that
might
have
on
businesses
that
I
in
in
many
cases
already
struggling
and
have
thought
that
for
local
or
staff
that
would
have
been
let
go.
We
have
potential
impact
of
brexit,
even
an
audio
brexit
and
then,
as
a
number
of
people
in
supply
chain
and
retail
appointed
out.
C
We
also
have
christmas,
which
is
the
busiest
time
for
for
any
retailer,
and
and
so
so
these
three
it's
it's
not
even
not
not
even
a
double
whammy.
It's
it's
a
triple
effect.
You
have
the
worst
possible
moment
for
businesses
for
any
significant
change,
with
the
majority
of
staff
and
and
in
in
many
businesses
from
mid
december,
I
mean
everyone's
on
holiday.
C
There
will
definitely
be
issues,
but
I
think
at
the
moment
businesses
are
focusing
on
the
short
term
difficulties
and
I
think
the
short
term
will
be
will
be
very
difficult.
There
will
be
long
term
impact
and
I'm
not
by
any
means
trying
to
to
sound
like
this
is
not
important,
but
I
I
think
that
the
struggle
will
be
the
short
term,
the
first
couple
of
weeks
or
months.
That's
going
to
be
quite
difficult.
A
A
F
Yes,
can
you
hear
me
yeah
yeah
just
to
make
sure
before
we
before
good
morning?
Anna?
Thank
you
for
your
very
helpful
report
and
actually
in
just
following
on
ms
ewing's
questionings,
I
mean
we
seem
to
be
heading
for
a
perfect
storm
on
the
1st
of
january
and
and
you've
also
mentioned
losing
you
know.
Clients
are
losing
business
in
the
uk
over
the
last
four
years
and
we
know
that
one
of
the
things
that
business
doesn't
like
is
uncertainty.
F
I
wonder
if
you
could
give
me
a
bit
more
information
about
what
sectors
you
envisage
in
the
scottish
economy
that
are
most
likely
to
be
impacted,
particularly
on
on
checks
on
goods
that
are
going
into
the
eu.
I'm
I'm
particularly
interested
in
perishable
perishable
goods
in
terms
of
fishing
and
aquaculture.
C
How
many
of
these
producers
are
not
necessarily
large
multinational
companies
but
but
small
small
producers,
and
I
think
that
for
them,
the
impact
of
additional
paperwork,
especially
something
as
sps
requirements,
which
is
so
complex
and
so
requires
so
much
work
in
advance,
obtaining
a
certificate
or
making
sure
you
comply
with
all
the
regulations.
Even
there's,
that's,
I
think,
that's
incredibly
there's
an
incredibly
burdensome
requirement
for
companies
that
that
have
never
had
to
deal
with
it
before.
C
So
I
think
that
will
be
an
issue
and
again
I've
had
conversations
where,
whereby
there's
this
uncertainty
regarding
well
what
if
a
a
truck
is
sent
from
scotland
all
the
way
down
to
to
itself,
and
it's
turned
back.
What's
what
happens
there?
There's
no!
The
documentation
is
insufficient
sufficient.
What
what
what
happens?
Then?
I
think
this
is
a
serious
concern.
C
I
think
there
there's
a
need
for
some
sort
of
regional
support
or
additional
support
for
companies,
especially
as
I
mentioned
small
medium-sized
companies,
the
family-run
businesses,
because
these
requirements,
you
know
they're,
incredibly
technical-
and
it's
not
a
question
of
reading
the
guidance
and
and
going
all
right.
Well,
that's
what
I
need
to
do
or
these
these
are
the
forms
that
I
need
to
fulfill.
C
You
need
to
really
understand
all
your
obligations,
otherwise
the
truck
will
be
turned
back
or
your
your
shipment
will
be
turned
back,
will
not
be
able
to
enter
the
eu.
These
are
complete,
incredibly
strict
regulations.
You,
you
have
to
have
everything
done
on
time.
The
right
certificates,
the
right
checks
for
for
your
type
of
product.
It's
not
necessarily
the
other
problem
is
that
it's
not
necessarily
the
same
for
different
types
of
products,
so
one
exporter
in
scotland
might
be
subject
to
different
regulations
and
different
requirements
than
another.
C
So
it's
not
even
a
question
of
them
necessarily
learning
from
from
each
other.
If
they're
export
different
types
of
products,
so
so
there's
definitely
need
for
for
some
support
here
that
this
will
be.
This
will
be
an
area
where,
where
there's
a
significant
risk
in
terms
of
impact
on
the
scottish
economy,.
F
C
We
are
in
a
very
unique
situation
whereby
overnight,
something
that
was
never
required
becomes
becomes
mandatory.
I
think
one
of
the
lessons
that
that
might
be
useful
coming
back
to
this
need
for
for
additional
help
is
that
a
number
of
countries
whether
these
are
developed
countries,
or
that
also
is
the
case
in
a
number
of
african
countries,
for
example,
the
government
actively
supports
exporters
of
such
goods
in
in
helping
them
understand
what
these
requirements
are.
C
So
in
number,
for
example,
in
a
number
of
african
countries
there
are
special
bodies
or
special
help
available
to
exporters,
because
eu
regulation,
in
in
in
terms
of
perishable
goods,
is
so
strict
and
is
so
complex
that
it's
understood
that
that
companies
are
not
necessarily
able
to
do
it
themselves.
So
I
think
that's.
I
guess
one
of
the
the
lessons
that
at
some
point
there
I
mean
there
will
need
to
be.
There
will
need
to
be
additional
help
available.
C
A
G
Excellent.
Thank
you.
I
I'm
sorry.
If
I
cut
across
my
colleagues
I
questions
because
I
didn't
know
what
was
just
asked.
They
are
I,
but
I
was
interested
in
what
proportion
of
businesses
export
just
to
the
eu
at
the
moment.
I'm
I
mean
obviously
there'll
be
some
businesses
in
that
category,
but
a
lot
of
other
businesses
are
surely
used
to
at
least
some
customs
paperwork
from
the
small
amount
of
trade.
You
know
many
of
them
do
with
with
other
countries
around
the
world
at
the
moment.
C
C
I
will
have
to
get
back
to
you
with
a
number,
but
that's
definitely
an
interesting
point
about
the
fact
that
some
businesses-
yes,
there
are
the
experts
in
the
u.s
they
export
to
or
all
around
the
world
they
use
the
customs
formalities,
customs
procedures
and
so
on.
Two
points
here:
one
is
that
for
these
businesses,
it's
easier
as
in
the
way
that
they
understand
what
what
they
need
to
do
to
submit
a
customs
declaration.
Two
points
that
make
it
still
difficult.
C
One
is
the
availability
of
of
customs
agents
and
customs
brokers,
majority
of
businesses
very
few
businesses
submit
customs
declarations
themselves.
Majority
of
businesses
use
an
agent
user
a
service
provider
to
do
that
because
of
the
of
the
increased
volume
of
export
declarations
or
import
declarations
as
well.
C
There
will
be
shortages
of
these
of
these
brokers
and
and
service
providers
available.
As
a
result,
even
companies
that
already
export
and
already
are
engaged
in
that
process
might
find
it
difficult
to
find
the
service
provider
to
do
that
for
them.
So
that's
that's
one
area
where
it's
difficult.
Another
area
where
it's
difficult
is
that,
while
they
would
be
familiar
with
with
customs
declarations,
obviously
there
will
be
some
specific,
specific
information
in
terms
of
the
uk
eu
relationship
that
that
they
need
to
that.
C
They
need
to
add
to
this
mix
and
there's,
as
everyone
else,
they're
still
waiting
to
find
out
what
the
details
of
the
arrangement
is.
So
it's
not
necessarily
just
because
of
business
exports.
Let's
say
to
the
us
they're
all
sorted
and
they
have
everything
they
need
for
the
first
of
january.
That's
not
necessarily
the
case.
It
is
easier,
but
it
doesn't
mean
that
that
that
there
are
no
problems
there.
G
Thank
you
for
that
and
the
other
question
I
wondered
you
know
obviously
you've
highlighted
christmas
as
a
kind
of
risk
factor.
You
know
in
terms
of
business
preparation,
but
I
I
wonder
you
know
when
you
felt
a
better
time
in
the
year,
for
that
would
be
because
again
I
could.
I
could
be
wrong,
but
for
a
lot
of
industries
you
know
in
terms
of
exports,
you
know
january
february
tend
to
be
quieter
times
of
the
year.
G
C
I
mean:
is
there
a
better
time
of
year
for
a
massive
change
and
disruption
that
it's,
I
think,
let's,
let's
put
it
this
way,
that
christmas
is
probably
not
an
ideal
time,
not
necessarily
sure
whether
it
would
be
what
time
would
be
better.
Definitely,
a
a
quieter
time
is,
is
better
what
a
lot
of
companies
did
last
time
with
the
two
previous
deadlines.
There
are
two
things
that
companies
that,
in
order
to
prepare
themselves,
they
are
their
stockpiled,
hoping
that
they
will
be
able
to
use.
C
The
provisions
will
ever
happen
if
there
are
any
disruptions
and
related
to
this
is
in
the
run-up
to
whatever
the
deadline
in
the
previous
deadline
was
or
two
deadlines.
They
they
had
a
period
of
where,
where
they
imported
and
exported
less,
so
they
had
a
bit
of
a
quiet
period
to
without
orders
so
planning
ahead.
They,
they
weren't
making
additional
orders
for
that
particular
period
in
time
to
make
sure
that
they
do
have
some
breathing
space
to
see
how
the
situation
develops.
C
What
happens
at
the
border
and
if
a
number
of
companies
do
that.
That
means
that
there's
less
in
terms
of
volumes
coming
through
ports
for
a
couple
of
days
up
to
a
week,
which
gives
a
little
bit
of
an
opportunity
for
port
operators,
logistics
providers
and
so
on,
to
figure
things
out
with
this
being
one
of
the
busiest
times
in
terms
of
retail
and
volumes.
This
will
be
difficult,
so
I
think
that's
just
this
additional
difficulties
that
you
can't
you
can't.
C
And
another
thing
I
guess
mentioning
is
that
that
companies
have
already
you
know,
companies
that
have
stockpiled
twice
and
had
issues
with
that
and
had
financial
investments
related
to
that
they
they've.
Already.
It's
already
done
this
twice.
There
might
also
be
a
bit
reluctant
to
prepare
for
this
this
time
as
well.
B
Thank
you
convener.
Let
me
just
pick
up
all
of
them
and
del's
first
question
and
develop
it
a
little
bit
and
companies
that
export
to
countries
outside
the
eu
are,
of
course,
often
doing
so
under
the
overarching
arrangements
between
the
eu
and
those
countries.
I,
for
example,
have
a
potato
seed,
potato
exporter
that
I
know
exposed
to
uruguay
and
to
the
philippines,
because
I've
been
involved
in
helping
them
with
issues
there
and
they're
covered
by
eu
regulations
and
trade
agreements,
and
therefore
the
paperwork
is
known.
C
Yes,
that's
that's!
That's
an
important
question.
The
uk
currently
is
still
a
member
of
of
our
party
to
a
number
of
trade
agreements
that
the
eu
has
with
countries
around
the
world.
As
of
the
1st
of
january,
that
will
no
longer
be
the
case.
The
uk
government
has
worked
on
these
on
extending
these
provisions
or
signing
this
continuity
or
rollover
agreements
for
for
a
number
of
years,
and
there
have
been
some
some
there's
been
a
quite
a
lot
of
progress
made.
C
There
are
some
some
notable
exceptions,
such
as
canada
or
turkey,
where
these
agreements
have
not
yet
been
signed.
We
obviously
had
japan
announcement
on
japan
last
week
or
the
week
before
that,
and
we
are
the
countries
that
have
not
been
the
rumors
that
have
not
been
rolled
over
are
still
under
negotiations.
As
far
as
I'm
aware,
depending
on
what
happens
between
the
uk
and
the
eu,
there
might
be
still
some
agreements
rolled
over
before
the
end
of
the
year.
C
So
then
we
might
still
have
some
some
additional
opportunities
there
in
terms
of
the
impact
on
scottish
companies
and
new
paid
companies.
From
a
wider
perspective
of
of
this
change
that
very
much
will
depend
on
on
on
companies
a
number
of
companies
that
I
speak
to
are
looking
currently
at
their
supply
chains
to
understand
whether
basically
the
product
will
be
able
to
fulfill
rules
of
fortune
which
will
determine
whether
they're
eligible
for
these
for
these
preferential
tires.
C
Under
these
deals,
one
of
the
helpful
things
that
the
uk
government
was
able
to
achieve
is
a
certain
provision
with
these
trade
agreements,
meaning
that
producers
in
the
uk
can
still
use
eu
inputs
and
still
be
eligible
for
these
preferential
treatments,
professional
tariffs
under
the
under
the
trade
agreements.
So
for
a
number
of
companies
that
will
be
very
helpful,
they
can
still
export
and
import
under
the
provincial
tariffs,
not
for
all
companies.
C
Some
companies
will
be
impacted
by
the
fact
that
the
eu
is
not
part
of
these
of
these
agreements,
but
I
think
the
biggest
impact
in
that
respect
will
be
the
other
way
around
almost
so.
The
biggest
impact
would
be
on
companies
that
exported
or
not
exported,
because
at
the
moment
we
don't
have
extra
but
supplied
eu
manufacturers
that
then
send
these
products
to
to
these
trade
agreement
partners,
and
I
think
that's
something-
that's
not
highlighted
enough,
but
it's
not
something
that
we
focus
on
enough.
C
It's
not
necessarily
the
uk
to
the
free
trade
agreement,
partner
movements
that
will
be
impacted,
but
I
think
there
will
be
a
significant
impact
on
the
on
the
companies
that
supply
eu
manufacturers
and
companies
that
supply
the
eu,
because
eu
will
not
be
using
the
same
provision
and
will
not
be
counting
uk
inputs
as
originating.
So
I
think
that's
that's
something
worth
mentioning.
I
don't
think
that's
getting
enough
attention,
perhaps.
B
Okay,
thank
you
for
that
and
that
there's
also
sanitary
and
psychosanity
issues,
because
the
uk
will
no
longer
be
governed
by
eu
law
in
that
regard.
So
even
if
the
paperwork
side
of
it
might
be
okay
in
the
tariff
site,
I'm
not
sure
the
facility.
But
I
wanted
to
ask
a
very
and
try
and
get
a
relatively
short
answer.
C
Yes,
yes,
absolutely
I'm
actually
in
one
of
my
projects,
I'm
actually
looking
at
exports
of
shrimp
from
from
scotland.
So
I'm
starting
to
appreciate
the
complexity
of
the
supply
chain
and
and
and
and
how
time
is,
is
important
here.
Definitely
I
think
that
again,
it
would
depend
where
the
where
these,
where
these
goods
are,
are
shipped
to
in
respect
of
trade
with
particular
third
countries,
that
that
relationship
is
bilateral
at
this
point
as
of
first
of
january,
so
the
uk
and
the
particular
country.
C
If
there
are
any
issues
in
terms
of
delay,
any
documentary
requirements,
I
think,
to
a
certain
extent,
the
rolling
over
of
these
agreements
should
help.
However,
yes,
there
is
a
risk
of
of
of
delays
and
if
you
said,
as
you
said,
even
a
couple
of
hours
in
that
particular
example
will
matter.
But
the
silver
lining
here
is
that
if
it's
a
uk
third-party
country
or
a
relationship,
then
there's
scope
for
bilateral
cooperation
to
to
address
any
delays,
especially
there's
a
rollover
agreement,
there's
a
sort
of
agreement.
C
I
Thank
you
very
much
convener
good
morning
anna.
I
would
like
to
ask
about
what
tariffs
would
apply
if
we
reach
a
canada-style
free
trade
agreement
with
the
eu.
Can
you
clarify
what
tariffs
apply
on
products
traded
between
canada
and
the
eu,
and
I'd
like
to
get
your
views
on
whether
there
are
any
particular
reasons
the
eu
can't
agree
a
canada
style
deal
with
the
uk,
because
I
think
you
mentioned
this
earlier.
I
C
Absolutely
I'll
try
to
answer
this
briefly.
So
in
terms
of
eu
canada
agreement
the
existing
canada
grim
eu
canada
agreement,
I
believe
the
the
the
agreement
liberalizes
about
98
to
99
percent
of
tariff
lines,
which
means
that
the
majority
of
tired
lines
have
been
tariffs,
have
been
removed
and
are
at
zero,
providing
provided
that
goods
comply
with
rules
of
origin
and
are
eligible
in
terms
of
the
uk
eu
agreement.
C
What
tariffs
will
apply
depends
on
what's
what's
agreed,
we're
expecting
this
and
I
again
the
original
plan
was
to
have
a
tariff
free
quota
free
trade
deal,
which
would
mean
again.
Probably
there
will
still
be
some
exceptions.
There's
always
some
some
exceptions:
every
agreement,
even
the
the
eu,
japan,
the
current
uk
japan
agreement.
Even
if
they'd
said
it's
99
of
tariffs
removed,
there's
always
there
are
always
some
exceptions.
C
There
are
always
some
products
that
are
that
that
still
retain
tariffs,
but
it's
if
the
agreement
is
reached,
it's
very
likely
that
the
majority
of
tires
at
perhaps
98
99
percent
level
would
be
removed,
which
targets
would
be
would
remain.
Obviously,
we
will
need
to
to
see
this
obviously
will
be
still
subject
to
goods
being
a
legible
and
fulfilling
rules
of
origin.
So
that's
the
first
part
of
your
question
in
terms
of
why
the
uk
and
the
eu
cannot
agree
the
deal.
C
I
mean
first
of
all,
I'm
not
entirely
sure
that
I'm
still
not
entirely
sure.
Despite
everything,
that's
happened
in
the
last
couple
of
weeks
that
we
won't
have
a
last
minute
deal.
I
think
the
stakes
are
really
high
on
both
sides
and
I
think,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
both
sides
appreciate
that
the
deal
will
be
important.
The
as
you
mentioned
comp.
C
Both
sides
are
completely
aligned
in
until
until
the
first
of
january,
perfectly
aligned
it's
a
very
new
agreement,
because
it's
it's
a
divorce
rather
than
coming
together
of
two
parties,
and
the
reasons
that
we're
having
difficulties
in
in
obtaining
this
agreement
have
nothing
to
do
with
technical
questions.
This
is
all
political
issues
it's
all
around.
C
Well,
there
are
obviously
a
couple
of
areas
such
as
fisheries
level,
playing
fields,
and
so
a
leather
playing
field,
and
so
on.
Provisions
in
these
areas
are
difficult
to
to
to
agree
with
between
the
parties,
but
again
the
reason
you
why
these
programs
are
difficult
have
nothing
to
do
with
the
technical
side
of
that.
It's
it's
all
a
question
of
of
political
agreement
and
and
difficulties
in
that
on
that
front
and
the
same
with
customs.
C
I
Hey
thank
you,
ander.
That
was
very
helpful.
I
I
actually
showed
you
confidence
that
a
last-minute
deal
will
be
done.
It
seems
to
be
the
nature
of
trade
negotiations
that
it's
left
until
you
know
five
minutes
before
the
deadline.
I'd
like
to
move
on
to
to
ask
about
the
joint
committee
set
up
to
identify
goods
which
are
at
risk
of
being
exported
into
the
republic
of
ireland.
Presumably,
you
mentioned
all
the
documentation.
I
C
A
very
good
question,
a
short
answer,
not
necessarily
it's
a
very
we've,
never
seen
anything
like
this.
Normally
when
you
come
to
the
border
where
the
goods
arrive
to
the
border.
The
question
is
where
they've
been,
where
they're
coming
from,
where
they're
originating
no
one
asks
questions,
necessarily
where
they're
going
under
certain
limited
amount
of
cases
with
certain
customs
procedures
you
it's
important
to
see
where
they
can
goods
end
up.
C
But
these
procedures
require
a
significant
amount
of
documentary
evidence
from
a
company,
so
the
burden
of
of
of
demonstrating
whether
goods
ended
up
is
on
the
company.
I've
actually
written
a
paper
a
while
back
about
ways
how
this
could
be
solved
from
a
technical
perspective,
and
I
came
up
with
three
different
options
based
on
existing
procedures.
C
You
need
to
require
companies
to
submit
a
lot
of
paperwork,
as
it
is
with
these
special
procedures
that
I
mentioned,
such
as
inward
processing.
We
then
accompany
tariffs
are
suspended,
but
the
company
needs
to
demonstrate
and
provide
evidence
of
these
goods
being
then
re-exported
and
that's
a
lot
of
evidence.
It's
a
lot
of
time,
and
that's
that's
quite
a
strict
procedure.
C
So
we
don't
want
to
end
up
with
something
like
this,
because
the
boon
absolutely
will
be
incredibly
difficult
for
businesses
will
will
make
it
even
more
time-consuming
and
even
more
expensive
to
to
trade
between
gb
and
ni.
So
we
we
need
to
find
a
balance
between
these
doing
to
find
a
procedure.
That's
reasonable,
as
you
mentioned,
and,
and
I
think
and
again
I
I
don't
think,
necessarily
that
the
difficulty
here
is
technical.
C
It
is
a
difficult
technical
topic,
but
reaching
a
solution
would
require,
as
it's
often
been
said,
mutual
trust
and
and
confidence,
and
I
guess
cooperation-
and
I
think
that's
that
is
where
we're
struggling
at
the
moment.
This
is
the
mutual
trust
and
confidence
that
that
part.
Yes,
so
I
guess
I
guess
I'll
leave
it
there
it
it's!
It's
never
been
done
before.
It
requires
some
creative
thinking,
but
but
the
big
issue
is
not
to
not
to
make
it
too
strict.
Otherwise
companies
won't
be
able
to
try
they'll,
be
just
too
difficult.
I
H
A
J
J
In
section
four
of
your
paper,
where
you
it's
entitled,
the
general
border
procedures,
there's
a
section
there
that
it's
called
safety
and
security
processes
and
anti-smuggling
procedures,
and
I
was
conscious
also
that
earlier
on
this
year,
the
guardian
had
written
an
article
regarding
the
illegal
activity
going
through
a
few
ports.
Do
you
think
that
free
ports
are
a
possible
way
forward
to
actually
try
to
assist
with
the
uk?
I
should
leave
in
the
european
union.
C
That's
a
very
good
question:
yes,
freeports
are
very
an
interesting
topic,
a
couple
of
background
points.
We
obviously
had
three
points
in
freeports
in
the
uk.
Up
till
I
believe,
2012.
they
weren't
used.
There
are
other
procedures,
customs
procedures
that
do
pretty
much
the
same
thing
without
the
need
for
relocating
and
being
located
near
port.
So
these
procedures
are
more
popular
than
freeport.
C
What
the
uk
government
is
planning
to
do
now,
and
the
consultation
on
reports
and
the
report
that
came
out
of
these
consultations
is
a
mix
of
a
three-port
procedure
in
terms
of
customs
and
a
mix
of
other
incentives,
tax
incentives,
support
and
additional
provisions
for
companies
within
this
report.
So
it's
not
necessarily
purely
a
customer's
procedure
from
a
customer's
perspective
reports
again
that
they
can
be
a
very
useful
tool.
Not
necessarily
I
mean
it's,
it's
particularly.
C
So
it
adds
even
more
paperwork
in
red
tape
in
terms
of
illegal
activities.
Yes,
there
has
been
a
lot
in
in
the
media
around
that
I
mean,
I
think
the
eu
commission
has
issued
a
report
a
while
back.
This
is
something
that's
that
it's
not
a
new
topic.
These
reports
have
been
known
to
to
be
a
place
where,
where
various
activities
take
place,
a
number
of
of
basically
the
number
of
people
in
different
disciplines
know
them
for
for
different
purposes.
C
For
for
investors,
freeports
are
a
fantastic
place
to
store
expensive
art
and
and
other
expand
expressive
pieces
of
investment
because
of
their
duty-free
nature
and
and
incentives
they
provide.
I
guess
everything
will
depend
on
the
amount
of
controls
that
are
implemented
in
and
in
the
reports
in
terms
of
how
much
illegal
activity
is
going
on
again.
This
brings
us
back
to
how
much
red
tape
how
much
additional
procedures
are
involved
in
a
free
port.
C
The
fact
that
that
report
requires
an
oversight
that
requires
additional
inspections
and
and
so
on
whether
they
can
be
helpful
or
not.
I
think
a
number
of
of
uk
ports
have
applied,
or
at
least
are
thinking
about
applying
for
this
freeport
status.
I
think
in
many
cases
I'm
not
saying
that
they
can't
be
beneficial,
but
I
think
in
in
many
cases
ports
are
expecting
this
to
completely
change
their
situation
or
the
completely.
I
think
I
have
here.
C
There
was
an
article
one
or
two
days
ago
about
the
port
that
the
headline
said
that
the
freeport
status
is
key
to
survival
of
that
particular
port.
Well,
I
don't
think
that
the
benefits
of
a
freeport
can
be
that
great
to
actually
be
a
key
for
survival.
If
the
situation
report
is,
is
that
dramatic?
I
don't
think
the
freeport
status
will
will
change.
There's
a
number:
there
were
other
reports
about
freeports
that
already
had
investment.
They
already
had
they
already
invested
in
new
technologies.
C
I'm
not
saying
that
there
are
absolutely
no
benefits,
I'm
just
not
entirely
sure
that
that
they're
as
great
as
as
a
lot
of
course,
are
expecting
them
to
be.
I
think
there
might
be
a
bit
of
a.
I
don't
know
situation
where
what
might
be
a
bit
disillusioned,
one
third,
after
their
receive
that
that
status.
C
I
guess
again
we'll
see
what
happens
and
we'll
need
to
see
what
specific
provisions
will
be
granted
to
force
with
that
status.
But
I
will
be
quite
cautious
in
terms
of
just
what
how
much
that
can
change,
I
think,
can
be
helpful
for
ports
that
are
already
doing
well
and
operating
well,
but
it's
definitely
not
something
that
will
significantly
alter
the
port's
activities.
C
J
J
So
my
second
question
is
regarding
the
section
five
of
your
of
the
reports,
canada
and
japan,
the
ftes
with
the
eu.
In
this
you
you
touch
upon
it's
the
quote:
let's
say
the
tbt
measures.
However,
it
only
covers
a
subset
of
products
and
the
recognition
of
canadian
testing
bodies
is
dependent
on
a
further
process
laid
down
in
the
agreement.
C
Yeah,
I
would
separate
the
two,
so
I
will
answer
kind
of
the
question
separately
because
reports
are
are
not
so,
if
you
have
a
let's
say
if
we
have
a
uk
canada
agreement,
freeports
are
a
separate
customs
area,
they're
completely
outside
of
the
of
the
of
the
agreement.
So,
for
example,
if
you
are
importing
something
under
preference
on
the
professional
tariff
from
from
let's
say
canada
and
it
goes
into
freeport,
then
the
status
of
the
provincial
status
is
lost.
C
It's
it's
it.
You
can't.
You
can't
use
a
freeport
in
that
respect,
for,
in
order
for
for
a
free
trade
agreement
to
apply
in
tariffs
to
be
reduced,
you
need
to
ship
it
directly.
If
report
is
a
completely
separate
entity
which
this
is
what
I
mean
by
saying
that
it
adds
another
border,
that's
another
another
layer
of
difficulty.
It's
a
completely
separate,
separate
entity
so
that
wouldn't
apply
in
terms
of
qdt
requirements
and,
in
fact,
sps
requirements
as
well.
You're,
absolutely
correct.
C
If
we
look
at
the
report
and
if
we
look
at
different
examples
and
case
studies
and
if
we
look
at
agreements
around
the
world,
that's
what
I
meant
at
the
beginning
when
I
said
that
fda's
are
not
equal
and
not
created
equal.
Just
because
you
have
an
fda
with
a
certain
country.
It
doesn't
mean
that
the
provisions
on
sbs
and
tbt
requirements
will
be
exactly
the
same.
So
yes,
indeed
that
creates
a
situation
whereby
uk,
just
as
eu
has
done
so
far,
might
agree.
C
Different
things
on
in
these
areas
with
different
partners
whereby
an
exporter
from
the
from
the
uk,
as
it
is
now
with
the
eu,
will
need
to
comply.
We'll
need
to
know
that,
okay,
for
for
let's
say
for
canada,
I
can
get
my
product
tested
in
the
local
testing
facility
that
has
been
approved
and
and
has
been
recognized,
but
for
another
trade
partner.
I
kind
of
do
it
and
I
have
to
do
something
else.
C
So,
yes,
that's
definitely
that's
definitely
the
case
that
different
agreements
have
different
provisions
and
there
will
be
differences,
but
again
that's
something
that
if,
if
companies
already
export
to
a
number
of
different
countries,
they
are
familiar
with
that
that,
especially
on
tbt
and
sps
requirements,
these
are
very
complex
areas
whereby
regulation
differs
per
partner.
Customs
is
slightly
slightly
different.
K
Thanks
very
much
good
morning,
anna
I've
been
interested
in
some
of
the
discussion
with
regard
to
bilateral
agreements,
and
I
was
looking
at
the
ukrainian
association
agreement.
I
realized
that,
even
with
that
agreement
waiting
time,
it
can
be
up
to
25
hours
or
sometimes
longer,
so
I'm
just
wondering
how
effective
these
bilateral
agreements
could
be
with
regard
to
the
uk,
and
also
I'm
just
wondering
what
what
do
you
believe.
K
I
know
this
is
a
difficult
one,
because
it's
different,
obviously
there'll
be
different
agreements
and
some
haven't
been
signed,
etc,
but,
given
where
we
are
now,
what
do
you
believe?
The
collective
annual
costs
the
uk
business
will
be
of
these
additional
border
and
customs
checks
with
eu
countries.
C
C
C
I
think
the
the
biggest
point
to
make
here
is
that
the
agreement
potential,
a
fda
between
uk
and
eu
will
only
be
part
of
the
solution.
Any
agreement,
and
especially
the
draft
agreements
that
I've
seen
from
both
the
eu
and
the
uk,
include
a
provisional
customs
cooperation
between
the
two,
and
this
is
where
reductions
in
terms
of
waiting
time
can
occur.
So
whether
or
not
we
have
an
agreement,
particularly
obviously,
this
will
be
much
easier.
C
If
we
have
an
agreement,
there
will
be
need
for
for
cooperation
in
terms
of
customs
procedure
and
border
procedures
between
between
the
parties.
Just
an
fda
in
itself
will
not
solve
these
difficulties
relating
to
to
waiting
times,
especially
in
in
in
the
case
of
what
we
talked
about
earlier,
the
lace
in
kent
and
bottlenecks
in
kent.
C
There's
two
points
here:
one
is
that
the
kind
of
part
of
it
the
internal
traffic
management,
is
up
to
the
uk
and
that's
something
that
the
uk
needs
to
need
to
sort
out
and
provide
solutions
for
that.
The
other
part
is
that
to
facilitate
trade
at
the
borders.
It's
not
necessarily
the
the
key
point
isn't
necessarily
within
the
free
trade
agreement.
The
key
point
is
in
in
terms
of
cooperation,
customs
cooperation
between
the
parties,
so
that's
slightly
separate
and
fda
facilitates
that,
but
it's
not
necessarily
the
answer.
C
K
K
Beaches
wishing
us
have
talked
about,
for
example,
vulnerable
sectors
such
as
you
know,
fishing
animal
products,
but
I'm
wondering
what
other
products
products
will
be
particularly
affect,
because,
if
we're
trying
to
impact
on
competitiveness,
there
will
be
some
businesses
that
will
become
clearly
less
competitive
because
they're
having
to
pay
out
costs
which
at
the
moment
they
don't
have
to
have.
So
I'm
that's.
Why
I'm
looking
at
that
particular
issue.
So
I'm
just
wondering
if
you
can
respond
on
those
issues.
C
Yes,
I'll
try
to
I'll
try
to
be
brief
in
terms
of
customers
for
business.
There
have
been
some
official
estimates
and
so
on.
I
don't
actually
believe
that
you
can
give
a
full
number
and
I'll
explain
why
you
can
estimate
how
much
it's
going
to
how
much
it's
going
to
cost
for
the
additional
customs
declarations
and
customs
and
admin
procedures.
You
have
a
set
cost
of
for
customs,
import
or
export
declaration.
That's
between
roughly
15
pounds
and
40
45
pounds
depending
on
what
you
include
in
it.
C
There
are
obviously
premium
services
or
a
more
complex
import
and
export
declaration.
You
can
go
up
to
as
high
as
70
80
pounds
per
declaration.
You
can
calculate
that
you
can
multiply
it
by
number
of
additional
customers
declarations.
What
you
cannot
absolutely
estimate,
and
I
don't
think
that
anyone
can
give.
That
number
is
the
internal
cost
of
businesses,
cost
of
hiring
additional
staff
costs
of
getting
an
advice
from
a
consultant
cost
of
and
trying
to
understand
what
the
new
regulations
are.
There
are
other
costs,
such
as
cost
of.
C
If
you
have
products
that
that
have
sps
requirement,
cost
of
of
obtaining
certificates
of
going
through
the
border
inspector
pulse
posts,
the
additional
fees
related
to
that,
so
the
cost
will
be
very
different
depending
on
the
industry.
But
again
no
one
can
fully
estimate
the
cost
of
the
internal
cost
of
businesses
or
something
like
the
cost
of
a
new
I.t
system.
C
K
Yeah
thanks
very
much.
I
know
that
gsk,
for
example,
told
me
that
they
spent
a
70
million
pounds
just
that
one
company
preparing
for
brexit
just
one
final
question
for
me:
convene
on
that
set
following
the
shenanigans
in
westminster
this
week,
joe
biden
who's.
Obviously
the
democratic
candidate
and
and
nancy
pelosi
who's
speaking
house
of
representatives
have
made
it
clear
and
I'd
just
like
to
quote
a
united.
K
State
trade
deal
passing
congress
if
the
good
friday
agreement
is
undermined.
I'm
just
wondering
if
there's
further
impacts
on
the
trade
agreements,
not
just
with
the
united
states,
but
other
countries,
if
that
is
perceived
to
be
under
great
undermined,
and
indeed
the
uk
government
continues
down
its
path
of
breaking
international
law.
C
Yeah,
I
think
this
is
an
extremely
serious
issue.
I
I
think
we're
all
wrapped
up
in
our
brexit
debate
and
and
and
the
talks
with
the
eu,
but
I
don't
think
we're
fully
appreciative
of
the
reputational
angle
of
this,
and
what
does
it
mean
for
a
country
and
also-
and
again-
I've
mentioned
this
before
a
country
that
wants
to
be
a
new
important
player
on
the
international
scene
wants
to
be
the
global
britain
wants
to
sign.
C
A
number
of
trade
agreements
wants
to
sign
an
agreement
with
countries
that
the
eu
hasn't
been
able
to
trade
agreements
with
for
a
country
like
this
that
really
enters
the
international
scene.
The
kind
of
international
with
its
own
independent
trade
policy,
to
start
that
process
by
breaking
international
law
is
a
very
serious
matter,
and
I
really
hope
this
is
part
of
a
negotiation
game
rather
than
something
that
the
uk
government
is
seriously
considering.
Because
again,
we
have
to
be
aware
of
the
fact
that
the
whole
world
is
watching.
C
Other
countries
are
are
watching
and
are
trying
to
understand
how
reliable
what
type
of
partner
trading
partner
the
uk
is
going
to
be,
and
this
is
not
looking
very
well.
Obviously,
you
have
the
the
good
fighter
argument
aspect
to
it,
but
you
also
have
just
that
aspect
of
a
country
breaking
its
own,
its
own
agreement
and
breaking
international
law.
C
I
think
this
is
incredibly
serious
and
I
really
hope
again
that
this
is
part
of
of
of
negotiations
and
a
way
to
gain
an
upper
hand
and
a
way
to
kind
of
gain
leveraging
the
negotiations
rather
than
an
actual
attempt,
and-
and
I
hope
that
the
government
is
not
going
to
go
through
with
this.
This
is
this
is
not
something
that
I
would
expect
a
couple
weeks
before
this
is
this
is
quite
serious.
A
A
A
Hello.
Our
next
agenda
item
is
an
evidence
session
on
scotland
census.
Can
I
welcome
to
the
meeting
paul
law,
the
chief
executive
and
register
general
for
scotland,
pete
whitehouse,
the
director
of
statistical
services
and
slater
director
of
operations
and
national
records
of
scotland
and
jamie
mcqueen,
a
lawyer
with
the
scottish
government?
I
would
once
again
remind
members
to
give
broadcasting
staff
a
few
seconds
to
operate
your
microphones
before
beginning
to
answer.
Ask
a
question
or
to
provide
an
answer,
and
I
would
be
grateful
if
questions
and
answers
could
be
kept
as
succinct
as
possible.
A
L
Thank
you
very
much,
convener
and
good
morning
to
you
and
to
the
committee
members.
Before
I
get
to
the
substantial
part
of
my
introduction,
I
would
like
to
take
this
opportunity
just
to
record
my
thanks
to
colleagues
in
rs
for
their
very
significant
contributions
working
with
a
range
of
partners
during
this
terrible
pandemic.
L
Since
colleagues
were
last
in
front
of
this
committee,
it's
fair
to
say
somewhat
mildly
that
the
world
has
significantly
changed
in
march
2020.
My
organization
was
working
to
deliver
the
census
from
for
march
21.
At
this
point,
our
program
was
on
track,
but
there
remained
significant
work
that
needed
to
be
done.
The
census
order
was
in
place
and
we
were
working
hard
with
the
committee
and
others
to
progress.
The
regulations
we
were.
L
Our
delivery
confidence
was
based
on
the
appreciation
of
the
skills,
capacity
and
commitment
of
nrs
staff
and
our
partners,
and
indeed
where
we
were
in
the
delivery
of
our
plans,
but
contingency,
of
course,
is
not
limitless.
They
remained
a
challenging,
but
achievable
amount
of
work.
To
do
success,
however,
was
conditional
on
the
fact
that
there
would
be
no
major
and
sustained
disruption
to
our
work.
L
L
L
L
A
Thank
you
very
much,
mr
lowe,
and
thank
you
very
much
also
for
your
submission
to
the
committee,
which
is
is
very
helpful.
You're
saying
your
submission,
obviously
that
the
census
delay,
as
you
have
said
now,
was
due
to
the
pandemic
and,
however,
in
the
submission,
you
also
see
that,
prior
to
the
pandemic,
the
census
programme
board
had
reported
that
their
delivery
confidence
assessment
had
moved
from
amber
red
to
amber,
and
you
said
it
moved
to
red
in
your
comments,
but
I
think
you,
maybe
you
misspoke
did
you
had
moved
to
amber?
L
Actually,
yeah
thanks
thanks
very
much
convenient
just
just
to
clarify.
We've
had
a
number
of
independent
assessments
carried
out
on
the
programme,
so
pre
covered
pandemic.
We
had
an
assessment
undertaken
at
the
end
of
february,
early
march,
which
put
the
program
amber
status,
and
that
means
that
delivery
of
the
program
is
feasible,
a
program
that's
a
year
or
more
right
to
delivery.
An
amber
assessment
would
be
relatively
common.
In
that
type
of
review.
L
Yeah
thanks
convina,
just
just
to
clarify
this
is
a
very
a
very
specific
set
of
definitions
that
are
linked
to
the
the
project,
review
methodology,
gateway
review,
I'm
a
gateway,
reviewer
myself.
I
review
other
projects,
so
this
is
based
on
on
what's
called
a
delivery,
confidence
assessment,
and
so
an
amber
assessment
is
that
delivery
of
the
program
is
seen
to
be
feasible,
but
there
are
challenges.
It's
obviously
based
on
on
assessment
of
what
needs
to
happen
over
over
the
the
period
ahead.
L
So
a
major
program
a
year
a
year
or
more
before
delivery.
It
would
be
common
if
a
program
was
in
a
reasonable
position
to
have
an
amber
or
at
best,
an
amber
green
assessment
that
the
rating
went
above.
If
the
program
has
been
rated
amber,
red
or
red,
it
would
be
in
a
more
con
concerning
position,
but
certainly
we've
had
a
range
of
of
assurance
reviews,
independent
assurance
reviews
undertaken
in
the
census
programme.
A
All
right,
it's
just.
I
I'm
looking
at
one
particular
report,
which
was
from
october
2019
from
the
office
for
statistics
regulation
which
looked
at
how
all
the
census
authorities
across
the
uk
were
progressing.
It
was
titled
assessment
of
compliance
with
the
code
of
practice
for
statistics
in
the
2021
census.
That
report
suggests
that
nrs
had
experienced
difficulties.
For
example,
in
paragraph
4.5,
it
says
the
nrs
told
the
regulator
it
faced.
L
What
I
would
say
is
that
that
that
red
assessment
was
was
bait
was
in
may
before
the
decision
was
taken
to
change
the
census
date,
so
the
so
the
delivery
confidence
assessment
of
red
is
based
on
the
status
of
the
program.
If
there
was
an
expectation
to
deliver
in
march
21
based
on
covid,
that
same
report
stated
that
if
decisions
were
taken
to
look
at
the
timeline
of
the
census
programme
that
was
obviously
under
under
consideration
at
the
time,
then
the
delivery
confidence
assessment
program
would
be
amber
or
better.
L
So
so
that
red
is
very
much
based
on
the
the
challenges
of
covid,
not
just
at
that
point
in
the
program,
but
the
future
like
the
challenges
of
covid.
For
delivery
to
march
21,
it's
not
an
assessment
of
the
health
of
the
program
if
it
was
being
delivered
to
march
22.
pete.
Might
it
be
helpful
if
you
said
a
few
words
just
about
the
the
osr
review
process
and
and
the
most
recent
follow-up
activity
on
the
report
that
the
convener
references.
M
Okay,
thank
you.
So
the
osr
is
an
organization
that
works
with
the
statistical
census
agencies
so
with
osr
in
israel,
welsh
government
and
ourselves
in
order
to
help
us
reflect
on
the
progress
we're
making,
but
also
to
ask
us
questions
around.
How
are
we
meeting
our
users
needs?
Their
focus
is
very
much
on.
How
are
you
ensuring
the
quality
of
the
data
that
you're
going
to
produce
how
it?
How
is
how
are
you
explaining
to
the
public?
M
The
conversations
largely
happen
within
the
organization,
so
colleagues
from
osr
will
come
in
and
speak
to,
colleagues
with
within
nsr,
as
they
do
with
ons
and
israel
and
elsewhere,
and-
and
it
is
from
that
where
people
have
a
very
a
sort
of
informal
conversation,
a
very
open,
because
it's
a
collaborative
exercise,
it's
an
opportunity
for
statistics
statisticians
in
the
in
the
main,
to
talk
to
each
other
about
the
challenges
that
they
see.
These
are
not
challenges
that
are
necessarily
saying.
Okay,
we
cannot
do
this.
This
is
much
more
about.
M
We
are
aware
of
the
challenges
ahead
of
us.
We
are
aware
of
the
work
that
we
need
to
do.
What
advice
can
osr
give
us?
What
advice
can
we
learn
from
our
other
colleagues
across
the
uk
in
order
to
be
transparent,
to
make
sure
that
the
information
is
out
there
to
the
public?
And
it's
largely
within
that
context,
so
they
set
out
a
a
series
of
assessments
which
we
are
going
through
and
which
we
publish
on
our
website
and
we
make
available
for
others
to
to
read
and
to
come
back
with
us.
M
We
are
continually
working
with
them.
We've
had
conversations
very
recently
about
the
work,
we're
doing
to
make
sure
that
our
methodology
is
is
in
the
public
domain,
that
our
rationale
around
the
work
that
we
are
planning
for
the
next
year
into
march
22,
is
clear
and
understood,
and
that
all
that
information
is
there.
So
so
the
way
I
would
characterize
the
osr
is
it's
very
much
about
focusing
on.
Are
we
doing
what
we
need
to
do
to
let
people
know
where
we
are
with
our
program,
delivery
and
then
also?
A
Okay,
thanks
very
much
for
that
answer
that
that's
all
all
very
well
and
understand
it
is
a
collaborative
process,
but
nevertheless
they
did
say
that
there
was
a
delivery
risk
and
paul
has
acknowledged
that
there
were
some
problems
as
outlined
in
that
october
report
and
that
he
had
come
in
and
had
been
tackling.
But
I
know
that
other
members
want
to
explore
some
of
these
issues.
So
I
shall
move
on
to
the
deputy
convener
claire
baker.
D
Thank
you
convener.
I
do
appreciate
it's
been
a
difficult
decision
to
to
cancel
the
census
next
year,
move
it
forward
a
year,
but
looking
at
the
paper
that
was
given,
I
don't
see
anybody
else
has
taken
that
decision.
The
rest
of
the
uk
will
proceed
and
you
gave
examples
from
australia
and
canada
and
the
us,
while
it's
been
challenging
to
deliver,
there's
still
an
attempt
to
go
ahead
with
a
census,
the
response
rate
you're,
suggesting
the
spot.
D
D
L
Thank
you
for
the
question
just
just
to
clarify
in
terms
of
what's
happening
internationally
around
run
censuses.
First,
the
republic
of
ireland
have
announced
this
week
that
they're
delaying
their
2021
census
to
april
2022,
and
we
understand
that
the
senses
in
india
are
also
contemplating
this
course
of
action
in
terms
of
australia
and
new
zealand,
but
the
the
the
impacts
of
covert
on
their
senses
are
still
under
under
contemplation,
but
what
they
have
announced
is
that
they
put
the
public
rehearsal
in
australia
has
been
delayed.
L
A
major
public
testing
in
the
new
zealand
census
is
being
delayed
as
well
in
north
america.
Obviously,
the
the
us
census
what
was
in
light
was
live
at
the
time
the
pandemic
hit
that
their
reference
date
was
the
first
of
april
and
they'd
already
started
their
census.
The
implications
of
covert
in
the
u.s
census
has
still
to
be
to
be
evaluated,
but
but
what
what
has
happened
is
that
they
have
more
than
doubled
their
fuel
force
collection.
L
So
they
will
have
fuel
force
agents
out
in
the
us
until
at
the
end
of
october,
twice
the
length
of
their
anticipated
period,
and
they
have
been
concerns
expressed
in
relation
to
the
the
the
response
rates
that
they've
received
in
terms
of
nizera
and
and
during
s.
Their
position
is
that
they
are
continuing
at
the
present
to
work
towards
march
2021.
L
Obviously,
I
can't
speak
in
detail
about
their
their
internal
decision
making
as
to
to
why
they're
proceeding
on
that
route.
It's
obviously
a
matter
for
them
and
for
the
respective
governments
overseeing
the
census
in
those
parts
of
the
of
the
united
kingdom.
What
I
would
say
is
there
are
differences
in
the
design
all
right.
D
All
right
interrupt
because
you
do
give
quite
a
complicated
explanation
for
why
ons
are
proceeding,
that's
to
do
with
their
ability
to
mitigate
and
different
ways
in
which
they
collect.
But
I
find
that
quite
difficult
to
to
follow.
You
seem
to
say,
because
the
size
of
the
organization
on
set
up
or
trying
to
work
out
why
we
are
different
in
scotland.
L
Thanks
yeah,
so
there
are
differences
in
design
of
the
censuses
between
different
parts
of
the
uk
and
certainly
between
scotland,
and
it
might
be
helpful
to
bring
pete
in
to
answer
some
of
those
more
technical
questions.
As
the
as
our
chief
statistician
for
nrs,
there
is
a
concern.
There
is
a
concern
about
the
impact
of
kobadon
response
rates
across
the
whole
of
the
uk.
Ons,
independently
of
the
census,
have
been
working
for
some
years
to
develop,
what's
called
administrative
data.
L
So
it's
it's
data
sources
that
exist
in
other
parts
of
the
government
and
public
sector.
What
they
they
hope
to
do
if
necessary,
is
if
there
are
low
response
rates
from
the
census
that
they
will
access
and
use
that
administrative
data
to
see
if
they
can
fill
gaps,
and
what
I
would
say
is
that
ons
are
a
hugely
capable
organization
that
they
they
have.
The
ability
to
progress
solutions
like
this
in
a
way
that
many
parts
of
the
world
can't,
but
these
are
experimental
and
they're-
also
data.
L
That's
not
available,
it's
not
legally
accessible
in
scotland,
so
we
don't
have
access
to
that.
So
so
part
of
the
equation
here
is
that
is
that
there
is
a
recognition
that
response
rates
is
a
concern
and
an
issue
for
everybody,
but
they
have
access
to
solutions
that
we
do
not
have
in
scotland
if
that
arises,
compensate
and
the
risk
we
would
face
in
scotland
if
we
proceeded
and
we
had
low
response
rates,
we
don't
have
a
way
of
accessing
data
from
other
places
to
fill
in
gaps
in
the
same
way.
Pete.
M
M
Economic
surveys
does
a
a
lot
of
work.
Around
statistical
methodology
has
a
lot
of
links
into
academia
and
a
lot
of
I.t
knowledge
and
scope.
We
were
both
ready
in
february
march
and
2020
to
run
our
respective
census
designs
and
to
put
in
place
our
senses.
We,
as
paul
said
we
have,
we
still
had
a
lot
of
work
to
do,
but
but
our
assessments
as
ons
are
whether
these
things
were
manageable.
M
Where
we
are
now
is
that
so
our
census
design
was
suitable
and
appropriate
for
delivering.
What
we
were
intending
to
do.
Kovit
comes
in
and
hits
the
the
the
our
ability
to
do
that
in
a
way.
That
means
that
our
response
rates,
our
considered
view,
was
that
what
we
would
likely
get
if
we
went
in
march
21
is
a
response
rate
that
would
be
somewhere
between
sort
of
sixty
and
eighty
percent.
Now
the
impact
of
that
is
that
we
would
be
likely
to
miss
lots
of.
D
Start
interrupting-
and
you
know
take
this
as
much
sorry
to
interrupt
again
and
continue
I'll.
Take
this.
As
my
second
question,
I
still
don't
understand
why
it
would
go
from
95
and
60
to
80.
Is
it
because
there
wouldn't
be
a
field
force?
Is
it
because
I
mean
you
told
us
in
previous
meetings
that
we
were
moving
to
online,
because
that
was
the
way
everybody
worked
now
and
that
would
improve
response
rates
and
because
we're
paper
just
the
last
census
in
2011..
M
M
If
we
don't
have
a
field
force
which,
if,
through
our
work
in
terms
of
looking
at
options,
given
the
challenges
that
we
were
facing
through
this
kofi
pandemic,
that
to
put
in
place
a
census
in
march,
21
would
have
meant
to
have
run
it
without
a
field
force.
So
these
are
the
people
who
are
out
there
in
the
streets,
helping
people
to
fill
the
senses
in
knocking
on
doors,
helping
uptake,
but
also
helping
people
who
who
might
need
support
around
some
of
the
sort
of
paper
forms.
If
we
didn't
have
that
in
place.
M
It
allows
us
once
in
a
cycle
as
paul
says,
to
go
and
get
information
at
that
very
detailed
local
level
about
all
of
our
people
across
scotland.
It's
not
like
a
survey
where
we
go
and
select
six
thousand
households
or
whatever
it
might
be.
This
is
about
trying
to
get
the
really
detailed
information
that
we
require
that
local
level.
So,
therefore
our
caution
has
to
be
around.
How
do
you
put
a
census
in
place
that
allows
us
to
get
as
close
as
possible
to
a
good
mid-90s
response?
M
M
Because
of
that
they're
able
that
wasn't
part
of
their
census
design
necessarily,
but
because
they
were
doing
that
work
as
part
of
one
of
them
major
strands.
They
were
able
to
use
that
in
order
to
give
themselves
some
confidence
that,
if
response
rates
in
england
and
wales
hit
80
percent,
they
can
understand
who
is
missing.
They
can
use
that
evidence
in
order
to
improve
their
statistical
estimation.
M
A
I
L
Yeah,
thank
you,
and
obviously,
we've
taken
the
decision
to
reschedule
the
census,
based
on
achieving
the
best
value
and
best
value
for
money
out
the
census.
We're
currently
undertaking
a
detailed
replanning
exercise
on
the
census,
and
this
will
include
the
additional
costs
for
delivering
the
census.
So
I'm
quite
happy
to
write
to
the
committee
setting
out
in
more
detail
once
you've
concluded
that
exercise,
which
will
be
soon
the
outcome
of
that.
L
What
I
would
say
is
it's
not
a
comparison
between
what
the
original
situation
and
and
the
the
the
new
census
date
is
likely
that
any
census
organization
attempting
to
deliver
the
census
in
2021
at
the
moment
is
likely
to
incur
costs
over
related
costs
in
trying
to
deliver
that
census
to
in
some
shape,
perform
to
its
plan.
So
I
don't
think
it's
as
binary
as
as
as
the
original
plan
versus
rescheduling
it,
but
certainly
we'll
be
happy
to
provide
that
information
to
the.
I
Committee,
you,
that
would
be
helpful
and
the
other
area
I
wanted
to
touch
on
was
the
public
policy
implications
of
census
data
being
gathered
in
different
years
in
scotland
compared
to
the
rest
of
the
uk.
What
what
will
be
the
sort
of
data
implications,
as
well
as
wider
public
policy
implications
of
those
two
systems
running
out
of.
L
L
That's
certainly
the
view
of
the
the
national
statistician.
I
think
we
agree.
It's
not
an
ideal
position,
but
there
are
existing
methodologies
and
approaches
in
place
that
we
can
use.
One
of
the
things
I
would
say
is
that
we
produce
lots
of
data
based
on
the
sensors
in
years
when
this,
when
a
census
isn't
running,
so
there
are
ways
of
bridging
data
gaps
using
existing
census
data
and
other
surveys
and
methodological
approaches
that
we
use
pete.
I
don't
know
if
you
want
to
add
to
that.
L
M
Thank
you
very
much
yes,
so
once
so,
one
of
the
key
things
is
is
clearly:
how
do
we
deal
with
population
estimates?
So
the
census
is
one
of
the
key
tools
that
we
use
and
use
every
10
years
or
so
to
allow
us
to
add,
first
subtract
deaths
and
have
migration,
and
it's
that
approach
that
produces
our
population
estimates.
These
themselves
then
go
into
helping
with
allocation
formulas,
but
also
giving
us
any
rates.
Information
in
terms
of
lots
of
other
statistics,
most
recently
obviously
happening
with
covet
and
and
mortality
rates.
M
So
we
are
very
conscious
of
the
need
to
ensure
that
those
that
that
information
is
provided.
We
have
some
past
experience
of,
and
this
happened
after
2011
of
censuses
delivering
their
population
estimates
at
different
times.
What
happened,
then,
is
that
the
the
nations
came
together
to
agree
that
you
could
produce
a
uk
population
estimate
based
on
census
data
in
some
cases
and
then
rolled
forward
census
data
from
a
previous
period.
M
What,
then
happens
is
that
people
run
their
allocation
formulas
and
then
they
look
to
readjust
them
when
the
new
census
data
comes
on
stream.
We're
also
very
conscious
that
there
will
be
other
users
who
will
be
looking
at
this,
because
their
specific
data,
whether
that's
around
equality
groups
or
particular
interest
groups-
and
we
will
be
having
conversations
and
engagements
with
them
and
making
sure
that
we
are
very
clear
on
our
website
about
the
the
way
that
we're
going
to
help
them
to
to
have
information,
as
we
run
through
22,
23,
24
and
onwards.
M
So
we're
absolutely
very
clear
of
this
as
an
important
component
of
work,
so
we
will
be
putting
in
place
work.
The
aforementioned
osr
will
be
helping
us
to
do
that
to
make
sure
that
we
speak
and
engage
fully
with
all
the
uk
users
of
census
data,
as
well
as
those
within
scotland,
and
I
know
that
there
are
a
number
of
groups
are
already
in
place
across
the
government
statistical
service.
So
that's
with
ons
world's
government
and
israel
ourselves.
M
That
will
be
looking
at
this,
and-
and
one
final
point
I
would
make-
is
actually
in
nrs.
We
have
this
as
our
issue
in
that
in
my
directorate,
I,
you
know
we
produce
the
census
to
some
degree,
but
I'm
also
we're
a
customer
of
it,
because
we're
also
responsible
for
the
population
estimates
for
scotland.
So
this
is
an
issue
that
is
very
close
to
us
and
will
help
us
support
data
users
across
the
country
and
across
the
uk
and.
M
So
it
what
happened
after
the
2011
census
was
that
there
was
a
nine-month
gap
in
when
scotland
census
population
estimates
came
out
compared
to
the
rest
of
the
uk,
and,
as
I
say,
what
happened
there
is
that
we
have
population
estimates.
So
what
happened
in
2011
is
that
england
and
wales
and
northern
ireland
had
their
2011
census
data.
We
were
using
our
2001
data,
which
we
would
be
rolling
forward
so
each
year
you
add
births,
you
take
off
deaths
and
you
have
migration
information,
and
that
gives
you
your
population
estimates.
M
You
use
the
census,
then,
to
kind
of
calibrate
that
and
and
to
see
whether
how
whether
you
need
to
make
adjustments,
that's
the
process
that
will
happen.
We
will
have
those
conversations
we
managed
to
do
that
successfully
in
2012
and
we
will
do
so
again.
I
would
also
say
that
there
is
work
that
is
going
on
across
the
uk
to
look
at
our
migration
statistics
and
how
we
use
administrative
data
from
different
sources
such
as
nhs
data,
in
order
to
help
inform
that,
so
the
quality
of
those
estimates
should
be
improving
as
well.
L
L
Well,
nrs
obviously
undertakes
a
broad
range
of
work
and,
notwithstanding
the
notwithstanding
the
census
and
and
obviously
happy
to
go
into
that
in
more
detail.
But
what
happens
in
the
organization
is
that
we
gear
up
our
staffing
and
resources
in
step
for
when
we're
delivering
the
program.
So
we
have
a
number
of
people
in
the
program
who
come
come
into
the
organization
to
deliver
it,
and
then
some
of
them
will
go
away
at
the
conclusion
of
the
program.
B
And
convenient
I
know
these
were
two
questions
about
short
ones.
Finally,
and
again,
quite
short,
given
that
we're
going
to
be
a
year
out
of
step
and
you've
discussed
some
of
the
issues
around
that
odd
other
policy
areas
in
public,
the
public
domain
are
going
to
be
affected
by
the
delay
I
mean.
Does
this
affect
health
service
planning?
Does
it
affect
infrastructure
decisions
and
so
on
and
so
forth?
In
other
words,
it's
not
just
an
issue
for
nrs.
L
Thank
you
for
the
question.
I
mean
we,
we
we
know
who
our
data
users
are
and
we
engage
with
them
very
closely.
What
I
would
say-
and
it
comes
back
to
our
earlier
answer-
is
that
that
we
produce
a
range
of
statistics
and
information
that
are
used
by
these
stakeholders
out
with
the
census,
though,
each
year
we
produce
mid-year
population
estimates,
for
example,
and
that
sort
of
data
is
used
by
a
range
of
range
of
stakeholders,
as
pete
explained,
because
we're
also
responsible
for
the
the
registration
system.
L
We
have
really
good
figures
on
births
and
deaths
in
scotland
and,
as
pete
also
mentioned,
the
other
factor
where
population
will
change
is
migration
and
there
is
an
existing
uk
model
for
for
migration
statistics.
But
what
we're
doing
at
the
moment
collectively
anyway-
and
it
was
it-
was
out
with
of
census.
Considerations-
is
that
ons
and
nisra
and
ourselves
are
working
to
produce
a
more
robust
migration
model.
A
F
Thank
you,
convener
I'd
like
to
go
back
a
step
to
before
covert.
If
any
of
us
can
remember
what
life
was
like
before
that,
but
looking
at
the
looking
at
delivering
the
census
for
march
21
and
and
reflecting
on
on
the
convenience
line
of
questioning
as
well
that
it
seemed
to
indicate
that
there
was
a
bit
of
a
problem
did,
did
you
look
at
additional
resourcing
or
capacity
in
order
to
deliver
for
march
21?
L
Thank
you
I'll,
probably
just
clarify
the
initial
point.
First,
there
were
historic
challenges
in
in
the
census
program.
Certainly
when
I
arrived
at
the
december
christmas
in
2018,
there
are
a
number
of
assurance
reports
indicating
that
there
were
challenges
in
the
program.
However,
since
that
that
time
a
number
of
mitigations
were
put
in
place
to
improve
the
program,
I
reconstituted
the
programme
board.
We
bought
in
additional
resources
changed
the
governance
in
the
programme
and
there
were
a
number
of
assurance
reviews
that
came
out
late
in
2019
and
then
into
2020.
L
As
part
of
the
options
appraisal
exercise,
we
looked
hard
at
the
the
option
of
delivering
the
census
programme
still
to
march
21..
So
the
first
part
of
that
is,
we
looked
at
our
original
plan
about
how
do
we
deliver
the
census
in
all
of
the
shape
and
color
that
it
was
planned
for
to
that
time?
Scale
and
were
there
any
mitigations
and
resourcing
was
one
option
that
we
looked
at.
L
However,
I'm
afraid
that
there
are,
there
are
some
things
that
additional
people
can't
buy
you
out
of
not
buying
out
of
trouble
to
some
of
the
things
that
we
were
looking
at,
for
example,
was
it's
really
important
to
robustly
test
the
census?
A
lot
of
that
testing
happens
in
the
year
in
the
run-up
to
going
live,
it's
important,
not
only
that
all
of
the
the
it
solutions
and
other
things
work
as
expected.
L
It
was
closed
for
the
first
three
days
because
of
a
cyber
attack,
though
the
issues
that
we
were
facing,
included
truncating
a
testing
window
and,
and
that
started
to
feel
very
risky
in
light
of
it
being
a
digital
sensors.
But,
yes,
we
did
look
at
those
options
as
part
considering.
Could
we
hold
on
to
a
march
21
date.
E
L
I
I
I
I'm
very
confident
we're
delivering
what
we
plan
to
do
in
march
with
contingency
time.
Obviously,
the
the
one
scenario
that
would
be
a
real
risk
is
if
we
aren't
able
to
find
a
a
solution
to
covid.
I
think
I
think
that
I
think
that's
less
likely
based
on
on
knowing
more
about
the
virus
and
how
that
how
we
now
manage
those
issues
and
options
for
how
we
can
manage
the
census,
even
if
covid
was
still
around,
but
but
I
don't
have
any.
L
E
Yeah
I
mean
I
asked
the
question
because,
as
we
established
the
outside
of
this
session,
you
were
nrs
was
already
in
amber
before
covered,
and
I
mean
I
think
you
you,
you
said
in
our
response
to
an
earlier
question
from
a
colleague
that
the
detailed
replanning
exercise
had
not
yet
been
completed.
So
if
that
has
not
yet
been
completed,
how
can
you
reach
a
conclusion
with
conf
reasonable
confidence
on
meeting
the
next
deadline?
I
just
wonder
because
you
yourself
said
that
you
haven't
completed
that
exercise
so.
L
Yes,
thanks
thanks
very
much.
Can
I
just
briefly
clarify
this
point
about
about
about
amber
status.
Amber
status
refers
to
a
program
being
being
deliverable.
Delivery
is
feasible
a
program.
That's
a
year
or
more
out
from
delivery
is
unlikely
to
have
a
green
assessment,
because
there
is
a
considerable
amount
of
work
still
to
deliver.
So
it's
about
that
point
in
time
that
an
assessment's
undertaken,
so
an
amber
assessment
is
a
reasonable
assessment
to
take.
I
would
say
for
context
that
the
ons
program
was
also
amber
at
the
same
time.
L
So
so
this
was
this.
This
is
not
a.
This
is
not
an
unusual
or
a
negative
critique
of
the
health
of
the
scottish
census
programme
at
the
point
before
covid
arose,
in
fact,
in
fact,
quite
the
opposite,
so
I
I
think,
probably
just
important
to
clarify
that
in
terms
of
the
replanning
I
mean
it's
a
very,
very
legitimate
question
to
ask
what
I
would
say,
though,
is
we:
we
had
a
plan
before
covid
of
how
we
were
going
to
deliver
the
program,
so
we
knew
all
of
the
components
we
knew
their
relationships.
L
L
E
K
K
So
I'm
just
wondering
if
we're
looking
to
have
a
census
in
2022,
if
there's
any
focus
on
areas
where
there
was
a
particularly
low
return,
so
94
percent
of
the
average
for
scotland,
but
were
there
any
specific
areas
where
it
fell
below
90
percent
and
what
steps
have
been
taken
to
ensure
that
we
get
a
higher
return
next
time?
Given
that
we're
now
talking
about
18
month,
preparation
time.
L
Yeah,
that's
there's
a
very
it's
a
very
important,
it's
a
very
important
point
to
make
in
a
second
I'll,
maybe
hand
over
to
pete.
You
can
talk
a
bit
about
how
we
how
we
adjust
statistically
we're
in
areas
where
we
don't
have
response.
I
think
the
the
issue
that
you're
articulating
is
is
part
of
at
the
heart
of
why
we
recommended
to
delay
the
census
that
trying
to
deliver
it
in
march.
21
really
risked
knowing
you
know,
having
a
higher
number
of
people
not
responding.
L
L
That's
something
that
we've
not
been
able
to
do
and
was
part
of
the
reason
why
we
recommended
recommended
delay
so
having
having
an
active
community
engagement
and
communications
and
education
program
are
really
important
to
target
loads
groups
because
they're
the
people
we
need
to
know
most
about.
But
there
are
things
we
can
do
where
it's
relatively
small
numbers
to
compensate.
M
Thank
you
very
much
yes,
so
we
we
have
a
number
of
approaches.
Some
of
these
are
based
on
understanding
how
we
use
our
field
force,
so
our
sort
of
support
to
people
as
the
survey
is
in
place,
so
we
know
which
areas
traditionally
have
had
more
or
lower
response
rates,
and
so
therefore
we
know
where
we
need
to
place
our
additional
supports
to
sort
of
help.
People
in
those
areas
to
respond.
M
We
have
thresholds
where
we
expect
response
rates
to
be
at
certain
levels,
maybe
at
local
authority
levels
or
whatever.
That
will
allow
us
to
say,
okay,
that
gives
us
a
sufficient
coverage
and
in
the
general
sense,
and
also
ensuring
that
we're
not
missing
key
parts
of
the
community.
So
we
will.
We
have
those
kind
of
data
which
we
we
learn
from
colleagues
across
the
uk,
but
also
our
own
experience.
M
We
also
do
some
other
things
which
are
about
using
other
data,
so
after
the
census
is
run.
We
also
something
that's
not
really
very
well
known,
I
think,
is
that
we
also
run
another
survey
that
goes
out
after
the
census
in
order
to
help
see
whether
it's
called
a
census
coverage
survey,
and
it
helps
us
understand
whether
we
ever
missed
any
particular
areas
or
particular
bits
of
areas,
and
it
gives
us
an
understanding
from
a
statistical
perspective,
whether
how
we
can
make
adjustments
to
the
sensors
data
and
then
what
we
also
use
is.
M
Other
data
help
us
look
at
where
we
are
missing
information
and
to
provide
better
quality
estimates
so
that
we
produce
a
quality
of
outputs.
That
is
based
on
all
of
that,
and
I
would
say
that
we
would
also-
and
this
is
one
of
the
key
things
for
us
from
the
stats
perspective-
is
that
we
learn
and
will
continue
to
learn
from
our
colleagues
and
provide
them
with
our
learning
across
the
rest
of
the
uk
and
indeed
internationally
into
this
space,
because
we
all
have
this
issue.
K
For
those
two
comprehensive
answers,
which
are
very
helpful,
I'm
just
wondering
about
the
level
of
variance,
because
you
said
you,
you
know
you
both.
Both
speakers
have
said
that
you
know
there
are
certain
communities
where
traditional
there's
been
a
lower
return
from
census.
If
we're
talking
about
90
percent
being
the
accepted
level
at
which
below
which
a
a
census
is
valid,
other
many
such
areas
and
what
is
the
variance,
is
80
to
99?
K
M
Okay,
so
I
can,
I
don't
have
all
of
those
numbers
here,
but
I'm
very
happy
to
provide
a
paper
back
to
the
committee
on
on
our
threshold.
So
we
do
have
expectations
of
response
levels
at
a
local
authority
level
which
we
have
set
out
in
our
kind
of
quality
assurance
document.
So
they
are
published
about
what
we
would
anticipate
and
need
to
have
in
terms
of
response.
M
We
know
that
there
are
is
isn't
when
we
talk
about
the
sort
of
areas
or
individuals
or
communities
where
we
know
response
rates
are,
are
more
challenging.
It's
not
that
we
accept
that.
It's
more
that
what
we're
saying
is
that
we
know
we
need
to
put
more
focus
into
those
areas
through
our
community
work
through
our
media,
to
encourage
and
engage
with
people
to
make
sure
that
those
censuses
are
returns
are
made.
M
So
when
we
have
gathered
the
data
that
we
gather
when
we
assure
it
to
the
levels
we
do
when
we
understand
whether
there
is
missing
information,
we
will
produce
estimates
where
we
will
say:
okay,
it's
within
plus
or
minus
0.5,
or
you
know
there
will
be
a
presentation
of
the
accuracy
of
that
information,
and
that
is
what
we
will
do.
Ons
will
do
that,
and
israel
will
do
that.
M
K
J
K
Oh
sorry,
I
I
was
just
about
about
you.
You
talked
about
local
authorities,
I'm
just
wondering
how,
when
you're,
looking
at
a
community,
what
kind
of
scale
of
community
are
we
talking
about,
I
mean
there's
like
500
houses,
a
thousand
houses
as
a
particular
town.
I'm
just
wondering
what
you
define
as
a
community
in
terms
of
trying
to
put
together
this
statistical
analysis.
M
H
K
M
Was
I'm
thinking
very
broadly,
I'm
thinking
about
communities
as
in
as
groups
in
the
population
who
may
be
across
the
whole
of
scotland,
but
have
some
shared
characteristics
which
mean
that
they
don't
are
able
to
respond
very
well
or
they
can't
respond
very
well
as
well
as
some
local
areas
where
there
might
be
aspects
of
say,
digital
exclusion,
or
there
might
be
other
things
we
have
to
think
about
all
of
this
in
the
round.
But
I
I'm
more
than,
as
I
say,
I'm
happy
to
provide
a
bit
more
clearer
detail
in
a
paper.
G
L
We
we
are
in
regular
contact
and
engagement
with
scottish
government
about
the
resources
that
are
needed
to
to
deliver
the
program.
You
know,
obviously,
as
I've
said
earlier
on
in
the
in
the
presentation,
it's
likely
there'll
be
some
additional
costs
for,
and
resource
requirements
running
the
census
for
an
additional
year.
We're
concluding
that
for
a
replanning
exercise
and
as
offered
earlier
on
happy
to
write
to
the
committee
to
set
that
out
in
more
detail.
L
L
I
mean
I
mean.
Obviously
I
can't
comment
on
the
detail
of
of
ministerial
thinking.
I
mean
what
what
I
can
say
is
that
we
we
were
asked
for
a
range
of
additional
information
and
and
and
questions
in
relation
to
our
recommendation.
There
were
conversations
that
went
on
over
over
some
number
of
weeks.
Some
of
the
the
questions
the
committee
have
asked
today
are
the
sorts
of
questions
that
the
ministers
have
asked
of
us
about
the
about
the
firmness
of
our
assessment
of
the
need
to
shift
the
day
of
the
census.
L
If
there
were
any
other
mitigations
that
could
be.
That
could
be
taken
exploration
of
the
options
that
we
that
were
set
out
in
the
in
the
paper
that
we've
shared
so
so
there
are
a
range
of.
There
are
a
range
of
issues.
I
don't
think
anyone
anyone's
taking
the
prospect
and
certainly
not
myself-
of
of
shifting
the
date
of
the
census
lightly
I
didn't
come.
I
didn't
join
nrs
for
this
outcome.
It's
is
arrived
as
a
result
of
codeword.
Unfortunately,.
G
A
Thanks
very
much,
mr
mundell,
we
have
a
little
bit
of
time
in
hand
if
I
could
just
ask
him
a
couple
of
very
brief
supplementaries.
If
you
could
maybe
keep
the
answers
brief.
The
first
is
actually
in
when
annabelle
ewing
and
mr
law
questioned
it
earlier,
asking
you
for
an
assurance
that
the
census
would
be
delivered
in
2022.
A
You,
you
said
in
your
answer.
The
only
mitigating
factor
was
if
we
haven't
solved
covert
by
then,
but
given
a
lot
of
international
experts
are
saying,
we
may
not
have
a
vaccine
by
then
you
know
like
I,
I
take
it.
You're
not
you're,
not
banning
around
a
vaccine
or
elimination
of
covert.
Are
you
and
we
all
hope
that
it
will
be
eliminated,
but
presumably
we
have
to
plan
for
a
continuation,
local
lockdowns.
Everything
that
we're
seeing.
Are
you
planning
for
all
that
just
to
confirm.
L
Yes,
sorry
if
I,
if
I
articulated
the
sentiment
not
very
elegantly
but
yeah,
absolutely
we're
not
there's
a
lot.
There's
a
lot
more
understood
about
this
about
this
virus
and
a
lot
more
understood
about
how
how
we
would
operate
a
census
if
cobit
still
still
remains,
and
our
assumptions
are
that
that
is
a
distinct
possibility.
So
we
will
plan
and
use
mitigations
if,
if
covert
is
still
endemic
in
the
population
in
in
march
22,
obviously
there
is
a
there
is
a
hope
that
it
might
not
be
around.
A
Okay,
that's
great
thanks
very
much
now.
I
also
wanted
to
raise
an
issue
with
a
slightly
different
issue
relating
to
some
of
the
committee's
earlier
work,
and
you
may
have
noticed
on
the
committee's
website
some
correspondence
in
the
last
couple
of
months
between
ourselves
and
professors,
lindy
lindsey
patterson
and
susan
mcveigh,
who
are
very
distinguished
statistics
statisticians
at
edinburgh
university.
A
The
agreement
by
the
scottish
parliament
to
the
census
order
confirms
that
the
sex
question
and
associated
guidance
has
been
agreed
now,
as
I've
clarified
in
a
letter
to
professors,
patterson
and
mcveigh.
That
is
not
actually
the
case.
The
committee
recommended
that
the
scottish
parliament
approve
the
draft
census
order
in
its
report
edited
in
the
fourth
of
march,
but
the
committee
has
no
locus
with
regards
to
the
guidance.
In
fact,
the
cabinet
secretary
has
actually
clarified
this
to
the
committee
and
she
noted
this
in
an
oral
evidence.
A
As
she
said
in
the
30th
of
january
2020.
She
said
the
guidance
is
completely
separate
from
the
legal
processes
that
we
are
considering.
The
committee's
legal
responsibilities
relate
to
the
order
which
sets
out
the
subjects
to
be
included,
and
then
the
regulations
which
will
set
out
the
questions.
I
know
that
the
committee
has
become
heavily
involved
in
the
guidance
issues,
but
his
legal
responsibility.
It
relates
to
the
order,
but
I
just
wondered
you
know
like
that.
L
D
Thank
you,
convener.
In
terms
of
the
delay
to
the
census,
I
was
wondering,
if
an
opportunity
to
speak
to
organizations
who
have
been
interested
in
the
census.
For
example,
the
veterans
community
campaigned
for
the
company
in
campaign
and
understand
that
the
collection
of
that
information
would
be
important
to
them
in
terms
of
planning
services.
D
L
M
Yep,
thank
you
very
much
yes.
So
when
the
decision
was
made,
we
wrote
out
to
stakeholder
a
number
of
the
stakeholders
who
we
know
had
had
very
specific
interests
in
the
census,
as
well
as
putting
general
information
out
through
the
website.
So
the
veterans
were
sort
of
one
of
those
groups
that
were
keen
to
engage
with.
It's
also
where
the
office
of
statistical
regulation
regularly
talks
to
us
about
is
about.
A
Thank
you
very
much.
We
have
no
other
members
indicating
that
they
wish
to
ask
supplementary
questions,
so
we
have
completed
our
evidence
session
just
ahead
of
time,
a
few
minutes
ahead
of
time
today,
which
I'm
really
pleased
about,
given
that
we
were
running
a
little
bit
late
and
it's
quite
a
technical
topic.
So
I'd
like
to
take
the
opportunity
to
thank
mr
law,
mr
whitehouse,
ms
later
and
mr
mcqueen,
for
the
evidence
today.
The
committee
will
consider
the
evidence
heard
in
private
shortly,
and
that
concludes
the
public
part
of
the
meeting
this
morning.