►
Description
www.parliament.scot
-
The Committee will meet at 9:00 am in the Robert Burns Room (CR1)
1. Decision on taking business in private: The Committee will decide whether to take item 3 and 4 in private.
2. Glasgow School of Art: The Committee will take evidence from-
Brian McQuade, Managing Director, Kier Scotland;
David Page, Director, and David Paton, Head of Design Review, Page\Park Architects.
3. Pre-budget scrutiny: The Committee will consider a draft letter to the Cabinet Secretary.
4. Transient Visitor Levy: The Committee will consider a draft letter to the Cabinet Secretary.
Proposed future business
For further information, contact Stephen Herbert, Clerk to the Committee, at europe@parliament.scot or 0131 348 5234.
-
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
26
meeting
of
the
committee
in
2018
I'd,
like
two
main
members
on
the
public
to
turn
off
their
mobile
phones
and
any
members
using
electronic
devices
to
access
the
committee
papers
should
please
ensure
that
they
are
turned
to
silent.
I
like
to
welcome
Sandra,
White
MSP.
Today
to
the
committee
santé
white.
Do
you
have
any
relevant
interest
to
declare.
A
Thank
you.
Apologists
have
been
received
from
Tavish
Scott
MSP.
Our
first
item
of
business
today
is
a
decision
on
taking
item
C
in
full
and
private.
Our
members
agreed
our
main
item
of
business.
Today
is
an
evidence
session
on
the
Glasgow
School
of
Art
fire.
The
committee's
part
is
focused
on
the
management
and
custodianship
of
the
Mackintosh
building
and
its
collections,
and
our
committee
is
also
examining
the
future
of
both
the
building
and
the
collections.
A
That
would
be
extremely
useful,
I'd
like
to
welcome
our
witnesses
today
to
the
committee,
the
our
brain
McQuade,
the
managing
director
of
Kier
Scotland
and
from
pigeon
park
architects.
We
have
David
Paige
the
director
and
David
PTIN,
the
head
of
design
review
and
thank
you
all
for
coming
and
thank
you
for
your
written
evidence,
which
was
helpful.
Mr.
McCreadie
I
understand
you
wish
to
make
a
short
opening
statement.
Yes,.
C
Very
brief,
first
of
all
good
morning
and
thanks
convener
Phil
and
finishing
to
appear
before
you
today,
I
appreciate
the
opportunity
to
make
some
brief
opening
remarks
before
we
start
answering
the
questions
this
morning.
We
really
just
wanted
to
speak
in
behalf
of
everyone
at
kia's
construction
and
expressing
those
saddened.
We
are
an
art
by
the
fire
which
called
the
Glasgow
School
of
Art
in
June,
with
a
devastating
consequences.
C
C
Glass
went
to
Scotland
and
out
world
as
a
whole,
and
for
the
last
two
years
our
people
have
been
working
in
sneakingly
and
put
in
all
the
effort
sent
to
the
destination.
What
and
then
was
within
sight.
We
could
see
10
months
and
away.
We
would
be
handing
the
building
back
over
everyone
at
key
it,
as
well
as
the
the
team
of
skilled
craftspeople
in
the
supply
chain.
C
Deeply
for
doing
it,
the
the
Mike
were
looking
very,
very
much
forward
to
complete
major
restoration,
what
we
should
hope
to
it
and
still
played
and
the
work
that
was
done
for
Glasgow
and
indeed
all
of
Scotland.
Like
everyone
else
overcome
of
the
investigation.
That's
ongoing
and
wait
assure
the
committee
that,
through
the
proceedings
we
continue
to
do
or
can't
assess
the
fire
service
and
other
investigating
bodies,
I
hope,
you'll
understand
those
are
alive.
Regulatory
investigation,
andari
and
I
don't
want
to
say
entity
that
might
interfere
of
prejudice
without
investigation.
C
You're
very
others
are
joint
names,
insurance
policy
Tino
by
Glasgow
School
of
Art,
from
damage
to
the
renovation.
What's
on
the
existing
structure
and
that
covered
liability
for
legal
liability
for
third
party
property
damage,
so
I've
got
the
main
full,
not
to
say
anything
which
could
compromise
those
insurance
provisions
today,
so
Kevin
Boothe
was
factors
may
not
be
able
to
answer
all
the
questions
that
you
may
want
to
pick
today,
but
speaking
for
kiya
I
can't
tell
you
when
the
inquiry
will
come
to
an
end
and
when
we'll
know
and
appreciate
this
is
recognized.
C
D
A
short
statement,
I
do
thank
you
for
giving
us
the
opportunity
to
answer
your
questions
today,
just
like
this
committee
and
everyone
who
cares
deeply
about
the
Glasgow
School
of
Art.
We
have
been
completely
devastated
by
the
catastrophic
fire
in
June.
Paige
Park
is
an
employer
and
company
based
in
Glasgow
close
to
the
Glasgow
School
of
Art.
We
have
40
employees
and
at
least
a
third
of
them
were
involved
at
any
one
time.
D
On
the
work
of
the
class
of
school
of
art,
a
number
of
our
team
were
educated,
the
GIC
and
our
chair
was
one
of
those.
It
was
an
incredibly
important
contract
for
us
to
run
and
we
have
always
been
and
remain
extremely
proud
and
humbled
to
have
been
working
on
the
one
of
the
world's
most
important
historic
buildings.
We
like
everyone
else
in
this
committee,
in
Glasgow
and
across
Scotland
beyond,
want
to
know
what
happened,
and
we
await
the
outcome
of
the
Scottish
Fire
and
Rescue
Service
investigation.
A
You
very
much
polite
can
I,
can
I
open
em
by,
and
we
know
from
the
fire
report
of
the
2014
fire
that
the
fire
escalated
because
of
the
ventilation
ducts
in
the
building
and
reading.
Through
your
very
helpful
timeline
they
submitted.
You
have
been
associated
as
you
see
as
architects,
with
the
art
school
for
25
years
and
reading.
A
You
had
an
engineer
in
to
look
at
the
fire
stopping
in
the
building,
and
this
was
identified
back
then,
but
it
was
basically
you
see
that
it
was
not
possible
and
because
of
the
extent
of
fire
stopping
needed
that
you
decided
not
to
go
down
the
route
of
doing
that,
and
instead
the
focus
wasn't
a
sprinkler
system
which
of
course,
wasn't
installed
by
the
2014
fire.
Why?
Why
did
you
agree
to
that
engineers
report
that
suggested
that
it,
the
extent
of
the
stopping
was
so
great
that
it
wasn't
possible
to
do
it.
E
E
That
what
they
did
was
they
looked
at
the
building
very
closely
and
what
they
said
was
that
Risk
Reduction
the
usual
risk
reduction
measures
were
not
possible
for
three
reasons:
one
the
use
of
the
building
couldn't
be
changed.
The
construction,
the
particular
construction
of
the
of
the
building,
couldn't
be
changed
and
there
was
remaining
that
possibility
of
a
fire
so
and
in
particular
on
fire
stopping
what
they
said
was
they
concluded
that
it
was
virtually
impossible,
given
the
current
structure
and
amount
of
fire
stopping
and
compartment
ation
required
to
achieve
to
achieve
that.
E
E
D
Suppression
system
was
a
completely
new
system
to
put
into
an
operational
historic
building.
The
problem
with
inserting
such
a
system
is
it's
incredibly
complicated
and
it's
you
wanting
to
conserve
the
fabric
but
you're
having
to
pass
pipes
through
the
spaces
that
you
value.
So
that
was
a
major
challenge
for
everyone,
including
the
statutory
authorities
and
I.
Think
we
mentioned
on
our
timeline.
A
workshop
was
arranged
when
the
statutory
authorities
were
supportive
of
what
was
essentially
a
pioneering
installation
into
an
incredibly
important
world.
D
Historic
building
the
journey
to
get
there
took
took
time
because
it's
very
complicated
there
was
two
insurers
involved,
one
for
the
building
and
one
for
the
collections
that
sat
within
the
building.
They're
150
different
rooms
in
every
single
room
was
different
in
size
and
shape.
So
the
process
took
time
the
money
had
been
expended
on
the
conservation
and
access
project
so
that
funding
had
to
be
raised
and,
at
the
same
time,
the
program
to
make
it
to
install
it.
While
the
building
was
in
operation
had
to
be
created.
D
E
The
2014
fire,
because
what
we
were
then
and
into
was
a
completely
different
situation
up
until
then,
work
had
been
going
on
as
all
universities
do
during
summer
periods
and
then
in
the
case
of
the
the
the
fire
suppression
system.
That
was
one
continuous
project,
but
what
we
had
then,
was
the
chance
this
to
properly
consider
the
the
events
of
the
fire
and
put
into
place
a
comprehensive
system
for
the
building
in
use
in
the
future,
and
there
were
five
key
targets
that
were
identified
as
we
worked
together
with
her
fire
consultants.
E
That
was,
as
you
can
imagine,
improve
the
compartment
ation
of
the
building
install
fire.
Stopping
yes
within
all
the
ducts
and
risers
installed
a
state-of-the-art
detection
system
through
the
building
install
a
mist
suppression
system
which
had
been
commenced
previously
and
install
a
smoke
extract
system.
So
it
was
not
a
single
measure.
It
was
a
whole
range
of
measures
to
protect
this.
This
most
important
building
and.
A
E
D
To
distinguish
to
help
the
committee
the
difference
between
the
two
fires,
one
was
a
fire
in
use
for
which
those
five
fire
prevention
measures
were
put
forward.
The
other
one
was
a
fire
on
a
construction
site
for
which
there
are
different
processes
and
procedures
that
are
followed,
and
there
are
no
different
yeah.
D
G
Thank
you
can
FINA,
so
I'm
interested
in
the
role
of
Glasgow
School
of
Art,
so
the
Board
of
Governors
estates
committee
had
the
role
of
overseeing
the
the
project,
the
restoration
project
and
in
evidence,
we've
heard
from
page
in
parks,
and
you
see
that
the
commencement
of
the
words
clear
construction
prepared
an
issue
to
fire
an
emergency
plan
that
was
extensively
consulted
on
at
the
time.
So
can
I
ask
what
the
from
from
the
issuing
of
the
tenders
and
accepts
that
and
Kier's
involvement
from
2016
up
until
the
recent
fire?
G
D
I
just
answer
the
first
point
in
terms
of
involvement,
the
graphical
of
are
appointed
to
both
internal
specialists,
con
project
managers
and
external
project
managers,
and
they
acted
as
the
interface
with
the
board.
So
on
day
to
day,
we
were
in
constant
dialogue,
as
you
can
imagine,
this
project
was
in
high
visibility,
and
so
there
the
the
level
of
the
discussion
was
constant.
It's
also
a
conservation
project.
You
move
a
few
feet
along
a
wall
and
there's
another
issue,
so
there's
a
constant
dialogue
that
takes
place.
D
G
E
I
might
address
the
other
part
of
your,
which
I
think
was
about
the
consultation
and
involvement
of
the
GSA
in
in
the
contractor
file
plan.
What
I
would
say
is
that
what
we
required
of
the
contractor
and
what
they
did
was
they
were
asked
the
carry
out
a
risk
assessment
of
the
building
this.
This
is
not
any
other
building.
This
is
a
very
distinct
and
special
building
with
its
own
construction
and
constraints
and
materials.
E
So
what
they
were
asked
to
do
was
make
an
assessment,
can
I
add
a
risk
assessment
of
that
and
once
they've
done,
that
to
prepare
their
fire
safety
plan
and
that's
what
they
did.
They
then
issued
that
through
the
team
and
to
the
client
for
comment,
and
that
document
was
revised
three
times
in
the
following
months.
E
So
it
was
revised
after
that
discussion.
There
was
then
further
discussions
with
the
design
team
and
the
project
managers,
and
it
was
a
revised
again
and
then.
Finally,
it
was
revised
after
discussion
with
Building
Control
and
the
fire
services.
A
meeting
was
arranged
on-site
and
a
walk
round
was
carried
or
out
of
the
whole
building.
Together
with
these
and
after
that,
the
first
there
was
an
agreed
list
of
changes
to
the
to
the
fire
safety
plan,
which
was
then
adopted.
All
of
these
were
adopted
and
the
final
version
was
issued
by
Kia
construction.
C
C
In
terms
of
hurlan
to
face
with
the
school
we
we
had
the
normal
operating
procedures
with
their
with
the
design
team
and
the
rest
of
that
project
team.
There
was
nothing
unusual
for
this
kind
of
a
job,
and
indeed
probably
the
school
had
gone
a
step
beyond
that
and
that
they
had
a
couple
of
their
own
project.
Managers
who
came
to
all
the
meetings
commit
all
the
project
reviews
project
sessions
that
were
hard.
C
We
don't
always
see
that
in
other
projects,
but
in
this
project
they
had
two
very
experienced
project
managers
with
heritage
bike
going
to
work,
so
I
would
say
that
was
a
you
know,
extra
step
that
was
taken
that
the
assembler
we
appreciated
to
touch
on
the
issues
in
the
fire
plan
and
the
safety
measures,
and
we
all
have
a
duty
as
those
obligations
upon
us
all
and
those
obligations
overlap.
So
under
the
regulations,
the
client
has
a
duty.
C
We
have
a
duty
to
put
the
fire
plan
together
and
the
construction
fees
plan
and
the
architects
and
other
consultants
of
a
duty
to
carry
weak
checks
on
that
Azrael,
and
all
of
that
was
done.
As
you
hear
the
the
detail-
and
there
was
a
lot
of
detailed
work,
detailed
reviews
of
assessments
carried
out
before
the
the
the
plans
were
signed
off
and
activity
started.
Estas.
G
So
the
emergency,
the
the
fire
planet
you've
described
once
that
went
through
the
consultation
phases
for
the
various
partners,
and
it
was
agreed
was
that
then
effects
document?
It
wasn't
a
dynamic
document,
so
he
described
it's
been
a
complex
project.
The
plan
doesn't
change
and
another
question
linked
to
that.
As
do
you
think
what
you
have
to
prepare
in
the
plan,
which
is
regular
today,
is
adequate
to
deal
with
the
type
of
project
that
the
Mackintosh
was.
G
C
We
have
to
see
cuz,
that's
what
the
court
right
to
say
it.
So
the
priority
is
always
people.
So,
for
example,
you
have
to
test
there
are
the
requirements
to
test
the
procedures.
They're
tested
has
to
be
no
more
than
three
months,
the
periods
of
testers
more
regular
than
that
because
of
the
kind
of
building
ruin
we
in
the
last
test.
That
happened
to
think
in
me,
14
and
sort
of
me
eating
the
don't
resent
in
something
like
for
known
at
four
minutes.
C
So
those
tests
gives
you
that
first
priority
which
is
preserving
life
and
then
the
sacral.
It
is
obviously
the
asset
protection
and
the
building
itself,
and
that's
with
the
fire
plan
as
to
do
and
all
the
measures
that
are
put
in
place.
The
one
thing,
I
would
say
is
not
static
document
and
it
can't
be
because
on
complex
jobs
and
like
the
Macintosh,
things
have
to
change
by
nature
of
the
construction
project,
so
against
revisited
over
time
and
I
guess
updated.
C
G
Just
think
enclosing
it's
interesting.
You
talk
about
the
project
managers
that
came
to
the
art
college,
because
the
impression
I
feel
after
the
initial
after
the
fire,
the
recent
fire
was
the
Glasgow
Art.
College
didn't
really
have
a
responsibility
in
terms
of
the
project.
This.
This
seemed
to
the
comments
that
came
out
seemed
I.
E
How
that
all
develop
in
terms
of
the
day-to-day
operations
and
control
of
work
on
site,
but
I,
think
probably
the
distinction
to
be
made
is
that
when
a
contractor
takes
possession
of
a
site,
we
all
we
all
have
our
own
responsibilities.
But
ultimately,
the
contractor
has
responsibility
for
securing
and
protecting
the
site.
C
A
Thank
you
it's
that,
because
we've
taken
expert
evidence
from
conservation,
architects
who
point
exactly
the
point
that
mr.
McCready
just
made,
that
the
statutory
requirements
of
the
fire
planet
about
getting
people
out
and
that
that's
a
feeling
and
the
statute
requirements
for
historic
buildings.
So
what
did
your
sales
as
the
architects
in
Glasgow
School
of
Art,
do
to
come
in
and
see?
We
want
to
enhance
that
fire
plant
to
protect
this
incredibly
precious
asset,
which
is
the
McIntosh
building.
A
H
D
A
When
did
the
piece
of
advice
we
would
be
given
for
the
expert
says
that
compartment
yishun
is
great
difficult
to
build
in
and
during
the
restoration
walks,
but
you
must
do
it.
You
must
spend
the
money
to
build
an
compartment
ation
and
during
the
construction
phase,
did
you
did
you
do
that
in
the
final
antigen.
D
Well,
we
identified
that
the
contractor
has
the
responsibility,
the
site
that
a
single
point
of
contact,
the
project
managers,
the
design
team,
our
health
and
safety
advisor
Anna
Clark
works
monitor
throughout
that
the
project.
What
is
actually
happening
on
site?
So
there
is
that's
the
role
that
the
design
team
has
in
response
to
the
website
on.
E
Specifically
on
compartment,
ation
I
think
what
the
building
plan
divides
itself
into
three
parts
and
at
these
2/3
points,
if
I
might
describe
it
as
that,
there
were
fire
doors,
temporary
fire
doors
put
in
place
throughout
the
height
of
the
building,
and
they
stayed
in
place
throughout
the
course
of
the
works.
Eventually
they
would
have
been
replaced
with
new
fire
screens,
but
throughout
the
course
of
of
the
works.
Every
time
we
went
down
one
of
the
corridors
we
were
going
through
fire
doors.
B
From
sort
of
white
Thank
You
Gia,
it
was
to
follow
up
on
the
risk
assessment,
and
then
your
proposals,
2015-2016,
you
mentioned
about
areas
of
insulation
being
put
in
the
roofs.
So
when
you
look
to
the
rest
assessment,
what
material
was
used
in
the
insulation?
It
is,
do
you
have
the
name
of
it?
I
can't.
E
B
E
E
Course
I
can
tell
you
the
context
afterwards,
but
until
answer
your
particular
question,
it
was
a
type
of
PIR
insulation
and
the
manufacturer
states
on
that
that
the
product
will
not
contribute
to
the
development
stages
of
a
fire
or
present
smoke
or
toxic
hazard.
If
it
has
built
in
in
the
way
that
we
did,
which
was
the
encapsulated.
D
D
B
E
Important,
if
you
will
allow
me
to
to
to
say
a
little
bit
more
about
it,
it's
I
think
it's
absolutely
important
to
distinguish
in
the
uses
of
insulation
at
Greenville,
because
everything
becomes
conflated
in
media
discussion.
Grandfa
was
a
concrete
tower
which
was
having
an
over
cladding
applied
to
that.
So
it
was.
A
composite
panel
was
being
applied
behind.
That
panel
was
insulation
and
behind
that
was
an
air
gap
and,
as
we
understand
that
fire
started
within
the
building,
got
into
that
air
gap
and
was
able
to
travel
up
by
igniting
now.
E
What
we
have
here
at
the
School
of
Art
is
completely
different,
and
it's
more
akin
to
the
insulation
that
you
might
expect
to
have
in
your
house.
What
we
have
is
an
existing
envelope
which
is
stone
and
then
and
then
internal
linings.
Normally
we
look
to
add
insulation
to
external
walls.
Here
we
and
any
two
external
walls,
the
internal
fabric
was
of
such
quality.
So
so
we
couldn't
disturb
that
we
were
where
we
were
able
to
add.
B
I
Good
morning,
gentlemen-
and
we
back
to
the
issue
of
you-
know
the
site
and
and
and
who's
in
charge
and
all
the
rest
of
it
after
the
fire
number
two
gospel
school
afar
reportedly
said
that
at
the
time
of
that
fire,
the
Macintosh
was
not
part
of
GSA's
operationally
state
and
was
in
the
management
and
control
of
kier
construction,
limited.
Perhaps
initially
mr.
McQuaid
could
see
to
the
committee
what
he
thinks.
That
statement
means
because
we
find
it
a
wee
bit
perplexing.
C
So
you
know
it
was
used
for
very
many
types
of
contracts
and
some
of
the
the
Macintosh
project
so
I
was
having
possession
of
the
st.
was
absolutely
how
we
understood
that
when
the
C
wasn't
part
of
their
operation
was
there
was,
though,
the
owner
of
the
project
was
thrown
out
of
the
building.
They
still
had
the
duties
under
the
regulations
as
client
as
we,
that
is
transport
contractor
as
pitch
park
kind
as
transport
designer.
So
that's
what
we
took
we
were
in
possession
of
the
site.
I
E
E
I
Ownership
and
having
a
beneficial
interest
in
insuring
the
things
that
happened
in
your
own
property
are
proceeding
in
a
reasonable
way.
If
that
thing
is
the
position
as
beneficial
owner,
which,
of
course,
they
continue
to
be-
and
reference
has
been
made
to
the
fact
that
they
attended
regular
meetings,
could
we
have
a
bit
more
information?
So
what
would
these
was
a
kind
of
generic
name
for
these
meetings
as
I
grouping
who
attended
these
meetings?
I
regularly
wear
these
meetings
held
and
we're
minutes
taking
of
each
meeting?
Perhaps
yes,.
E
Happy
to
explain
that
that
that's
a
very
it's
a
very
rigorous
process
once
you
start
on-site
with
a
contractor
in
terms
of
reporting
and
monitoring
of
the
work,
that's
going
on
so
on
a
complex
job
like
this.
There
are
many
many
and
various
meetings.
The
principal
meeting
is
a
monthly
progress
meeting
at
which
the
client,
and
by
that
I
mean
their
project
manager,
representatives,
the
external
project,
managers,
the
whole
design
team
and
the
contractor
are
present,
and
the
contractor
comes
prepared
a
report
and
presents
that
to
the
meeting
and
then
there's
a
set
agenda.
E
I
E
E
E
Theobald
or
both
would
be
at
these,
so
many
technical
meetings
that
were
services
meetings
and
then
there
were
a
whole
host
of
specific
trades
meetings.
When
we
were
talking
about,
say
stonework,
we
were
talking
about
Windows,
you
know
fire
suppression
or
so
there
are
very,
very
intensive
meetings,
and
these
were
minuted.
Okay,.
I
So
if
so,
I
would
come
in
a
minute,
but
if
they
can
have
free
Zoology
operation,
we
staked
and
being
part
or
not
part
of
that
was
intended
to
have
another
meter
meeting
on
the
part
of
others.
As
far
as
the
actual
reality
of
the
situation
was
concerned,
gac
through
its
various
representatives
were
actively
participating.
It
seems
even
on
a
weekly
basis
in
a
daily.
D
I
C
I
just
thought
I
was
going
to
leave
a
food
Cynthia.
It
was
a.
It
was
a
daily
and
fight
up
until
a
few
months
ago,
the
the
the
project
managers
from
Glasgow
School
of
Art
had
had
an
office
on
site.
Things
were
moving
around
and
by
nature
of
that
they
moved
that
they
wouldn't
just
not
far
away
from
the
site.
C
So
the
boys,
with
her
team
and
with
the
technical
team,
very
often
dealing
meetings
because
you'd
have
the
the
say,
the
only
things
that
had
to
happen,
and
then
you
have
the
regular
sessions
with
the
subcontractors,
because
the
to
happen
tell
us
to
progress
things
and
then,
who
had
the
regular
weekly
and
one
of
the
meetings
that
are
all
programmed
and
sheduled,
and
the
reasons
for
those
is
so
that
we
know
we'll
get
the
information
to
progress.
Things
and
decisions
are
getting
taken.
Okay,.
I
One
last
question:
come
you
know
and
I
note
from
the
submissions
that
there's
a
set
of
other
people
here,
players
here,
so
you've
got
GSA,
it's
project
team,
its
gardener
and
CFO.
Do
you
have
here?
You
have
subcontractors
reporting
to
care,
but
you
have
another
set
of
people
who
were
directly
appointed.
It's
appears
by
GIC,
being
specialists,
conservators
and
craftsmen.
How
did
they
fit
into
this
process
in
terms
of
what
they
were
doing?
Who
was
dealing
with
the
oversight?
What
they
were
doing
on
site.
C
C
Generally,
here
oversight,
yeah,
oh,
that
works,
is
because
the
police,
the
audit,
interact
with
them.
If
they,
if
the
one-
and
it
was
very
minor
things-
I
mean
the
rent-
went
to
my
knowledge,
many
media
issues
that
they
donate,
we
have,
they
are
done
direct.
Then
there
is
a
requirement
because
we
have
transport
contractor
when
they
are
on
say
they
have
to
come
through
processes
and
procedures.
C
They
cannot
come
on
say
unless
we
have
agreed
that
they
can
be
on
site
to
do
that
as
a
real
regulus
process
that
they
have
to
get
through
for
anything
they
do
and
say
they
have
to
be
inducted
first
of
all,
but
they'd
have
to
get
through
a
point
of
what
risk,
assessments
and
method
statements,
and
all
of
that
has
to
be
submitted
and
signed
off
and
by
US,
principally,
but
we
do
take
the
technical
advice
of
others,
but
the
rent,
the
rent,
many
instances
of
it
was
the
rate.
Okay,.
C
H
H
Yeah
I'm
the
GSA.
They
obviously
hired
12
daily
meetings
and
has
someone
there.
So
not
the
standing,
obviously
know
what
had
just
been
discussed.
Can
you
provide?
You
know
some
other
detail
just
regarding
any
formal
structures.
What
I
should
put
in
place
between
also
yourselves
and
the
GAC
can
actually
have
that
rigorous
analysis
of
what
was
taking
place
on
a
on
a
daily
basis
about
on
a
regular
basis
in
terms.
C
Of
reporting
process
yeah
but
think
what
we
said
they
were
on
medieval
is
pretty
much
how
the
reporting
process
works.
We
have
your
daily
activities
that
are
owned
by
Lavinia
streets,
they're
collated,
on
a
daily
basis.
So
we
know
where
we
are
live
then
into
the
the
overall
program.
That's
updated
in
the
regular
basis,
and
that's
reviewed
the
regular
meetings
that
we
have
know
those
those
on
one
fly
in
terms
of
the
progress
meetings
or
if
we
need
them
and
between
we
could
have
them
and
between
the
wind
we
call
the
progress
meeting.
C
C
When
you
go
beyond
that
and
choose
the
subcontractors
that
are
going
to
work
in
the
say,
they
then
fall
and
procurement
schedule
and
the
altars
of
places
subcontractor
there's
at
least
an
agreement
with
the
client
team.
So
we
will
agree
with
the
architect
engineer
any
orders
to
be
placed.
So
there
was
a
process
that
went
through
and
that
happened
on
almost
an
ongoing
thesis
and
was
those
reporting
processes.
The
monthly
report
would
capture
all
of
that,
and
then
there
would
be
an
ongoing
process
if
something
was
fallen
behind.
C
D
H
Okay,
not
understanding
what
you
just
said.
We
held
from
Malcolm
Fraser
many
give
evidence
to
the
committee,
and
he
indicated
that
the
GSA
should
have
been
place.
Structures
around
the
contract
that
required
to
make
it
Roger
Roger
selves,
to
look
after
the
construction
is
a
management,
health
and
safety,
proper
procurement
for
the
contract,
employment
practice
and
other
such
things.
Those
structures
in
place,
but
I
want
to
talk
about
the
adequacy
of
those
structures.
So
what
was
what
was
missing?
I.
C
E
Think
if,
if
I
were
talking
about
the
fire,
so
I
think
I
would
take
you
back
to
the
process
that
that
that,
when
the
contractor
went
through
and
the
consultation
process
that
occurred
with
with
all
of
the
best
authorities,
you
know
who
consulted
with
Building
Control
and
fire
services.
So
I
think
that
process
was
was
absolutely
crucial
to
setting
the
fire
plan
at
the
beginning
and
then
running
it
and
and
and
thereafter
it
was
a
question
of
monitoring
that
the
fire
plan
was
was,
was
being
adjusted
and
progressing.
C
I,
wasn't
the
Iran
even
and
unfortunately
so
I
can
come
in
brother.
You
know
I
held
the
final
know.
What
I
can't
see
is
the
systems
were
all
in
place
and
tested.
I
can't
comment
on
what
we
said
will
not
help
that
even
then
I'm
afraid,
that's
speculation.
I've
had
you
know,
speculation
and
a
number
of
things.
I
don't
wish
to
be
unhelpful,
but
the
systems
have
been
tested
and
we're
working
to
believe
that
the
brain.
C
H
C
No
I'm
saying
the
third
one,
though
we
really
evacuate
the
building
happened
that
day
so
know
that
that
was
a
1
was
recorded
and
the
the
systems
are
tested
on
a
regular
basis
and
important
as
such,
the
the
the
panel's
themselves
sure,
if
there's
any
faults
and
they're
visible.
So
you
know
the
the
the
team
can
see
that
on
the
panel,
if
there's
anything
wrong,
so
that
would
have
that
would
have
threw
and
thrown
up
if
there
was
a
fault.
C
E
E
There
was
a
fire
watch
patrol
every
hour
and
records
were
were
to
be
kept
off
that
if
a
fire
occurred,
then
the
the
guard
was
to
immediately
advise
the
fire
services.
Then
advise
the
Kea
management
and
then
advise
the
GSA.
And
then,
if
a
fire
tender
arrived,
he
was
to
meet
them
in
the
street.
Tell
them
where
the
fire
was
where
the
fire
panel
was
and
the
quickest
route
to
the
fire,
but
that's
what
we
set
out
as
a
procedure.
What
I
can't
say
is
what
happened
that
night,
but
that
that's
what
the
procedure
was.
D
F
E
That
the
the
learning
that
came
out
of
these
considerations
was
the
the
five
measures
that
I
I
mentioned
earlier.
I,
don't
like
I,
don't
want
to
go
back
through
them
unnecessarily,
but
these
were
the
key
protections
that
were
going
to
protect
this
building
in
the
future
and
again
I
clarify
I'm
talking
about
the
completed
building.
Once
all
of
these
were
in
place.
These
five
measures
were
the
ones
that
were
going
to
protect
this
building,
but.
B
D
Historic
Scotland
and
the
City
Planning
Department
have
been
intimately
involved
throughout
our
25
years
of
involvement
with
and
commitment
to
the
to
the
night
when
we
started
the
1990s
I
think
the
view
very
much
was
you
replace,
as
is
so,
we
replace
the
roofs.
So
you
don't
you
don't
enhance
systems.
What
an
emerge
in
the
2000s
was
because
of
the
federal
fire
report.
It
was
really.
D
It
was
clearly
seen
that
that
enhancement
systems
were
required
and
it
was
innovative
at
the
time
it
just
you
just
don't
go
and
put
fire
sprinkler
systems
through
through
buildings,
historic
scotland
worth
adaptable
and
flexible
together
with
a
city
plan
to
say
we
think
we
understand
the
risks
and
therefore,
in
this
particular
instance,
we
need
to
look
at
that
add
those
improvements.
So
in
that
respect
they
were
flexible
tip
to
adapting
the
Mackintosh
building
to
to
improve
it
subsequent
to
the
post.
D
2014
fire,
they
were
part
of
the
city
planning,
were
part
of
the
process
in
terms
of
all
the
detail
and
again
another
overview
of
what
we
were
doing
in
terms
of
of
building
what
we
a
set
of
drawings
in
the
form
of
a
digital
model
which
showed
that
the
building
in
immense
in
immense
detail.
Okay,
thank
you
goes.
F
J
Like
to
just
tease
out
a
little
bit
more
around
the
fire
safety
plan-
and
perhaps
mr.
Ackroyd
you'd
be
best
answer.
This
and
you've
explained
her
there's
quite
extensive
consultation.
Every
key
the
encoder
was
involved,
including
site
visits
and
the
lead
up
to
it
when
it
came
to
ultimate
sign
off
of
the
fire
safety
plan.
It's
ultimately
for
here
to
decide
whether
or
not
the
pond
is
agreed
and
goes
forward,
or
is
there
a
collective
agreement
before
the
document
is
considered
to
be
life?
The.
J
So
there
was
a
belief,
a
press
statement
from
yourselves
and
relatively
shortly
after
the
the
second
fire,
but
it
appeared
as
if
that
statement
was
prompted
by
the
two
previous
ones
that
came
from
the
school
of
art
themselves,
which
appeared
to
distance
them
from
management.
At
the
stake,
come
back
to
the
freezer
and
operational
control,
they
stay
at
Annabel
Ewing
brought
up.
It
wouldn't
be
fair
or
accurate,
with
it
for
the
school
of
art,
to
attempt
to
distance
themselves
from
site
management
or
project
management.
During
this
process,
I.
C
Think
the
school
that
would
have
to
respond
to
that
I,
don't
think
it's
appropriate
for
me
to
respond
to
that
I
think
we
walked
with
their
the
school
worked
with
the
team.
That
said,
they
wanted
a
collaborative
approach
and
I
think
that's
very
much
what
what
happened
in
the
two
to
two
years.
We
were
involved
in
it.
C
The
reason
we
issued
a
statement
after
the
two
statements
by
Glasgow
School
of
Art
was
not
in
reaction
to
the
statement.
It
was
a
reaction
to
as
you
can
appreciate
at
that
team.
There
was
a
huge
amount
of
interest
and
people
trying
to
get
information
and
we
were
asked
for
information
and
we
failed.
The
simplest
thing
to
do
was
issue
the
factual
statement,
which
is
what
we're
trying
to
do,
because
the
fire
strategy
was
in
place.
C
J
You
to
take
this
point
wider
and
perhaps
looking
at
before.
Both
fires
are
the
future
of
the
building
and
future
the
site.
It
is
there
tension
between
having
a
functioning
art
school
and
our
building
is
also
essentially
a
major
public
attraction
where
you're
trying
to
wrestle
with
two
quite
different
purposes.
One
is
as
a
working
art
school
with
everything
that
comes
with
that,
and
the
other
is
the
quite
substantial
footfall
that
you
get
from
being
a
major
public
attraction.
C
D
D
A
B
A
supplementary
solid
to
that
already,
it's
very
quick,
very
quickly.
You
mentioned
about
the
24-hour
security
and
monitoring
and
early,
etc,
etc.
I
don't
know
if
averages
by
camera
or
people
on
foot
and
all
of
these
things
reported
because
we've
dead
seeing
that
people
here
today
you
see
there
was
no
that
didn't
hear
the
fire
alarm
at
all.
So
therefore,
when
you
had
gel
weekly
or
daily
or
other
meetings,
are
these
things
reported
soon
so
around
fire
alarm
is
working,
exactly
cetera
with
the
committee
be
able
to
get
access
to
these
reports?
B
E
E
Yes,
a
minute
and
what
I
would
say
is
every
one
of
these
minutes
all
the
way
through
records
that
the
system
is
working,
it
records
that
the
system
is
being
checked
and
in
fact
there
was
only
one
occasion
where
it
mentioned
anything
else,
and
it
said
that
they
alarm
had
gone
off.
It
found
to
be
a
false
alarm
and
other
than
that
it
was
reported.
B
B
C
Operating
with
the
the
one
that
was
for
the
temporary
arrangements
and
because
the
the
new
one
we've
got
10
months
a
week
so
similar
to
the
sprinkler
installation
that
were
still
part
of
the
building
process,
there
was
a
lot
of
Papes
and
why
husband
put
into
the
building
as
there
was
with
them.
You
know
a
lot
of
the
other,
finishing
mops
plaster
ceilings
and
there
was.
It
was
ongoing
at
the
time
I'm.
C
Know
what
happens
on
projects
when
we
do
this
fire
assessment
and
when
we
do
the
the
fire
safety
plan
and
the
construction
fees,
health
and
safety
plan,
we
then
bring
some
things
to
the
project.
Know
the
project.
Are
the
temporary
fire
alarm?
So
it's
not
temporary.
Isn't
it's
a
full-blown
system,
but
it's
for
the
period
of
the
project
works
and
that's
the
standard
process
told.
A
A
C
C
A
C
K
You
give
me
that
you've
talked
about
the
risk
assessments.
You've
talked
about
the
policies
and
the
procedures.
Everything
was
in
place
that
would
ensure
that
if
a
situation
occurred
that
there
was
there
was
policies
to
happen,
but
it's
quite
apparent
that
that
didn't
happen
if
they
had
been
fit
for
purpose
and
everything
had
been
working
accordingly
and
properly,
then
we
wouldn't
have
had
such
a
devastating
fire
in
this
situation.
You've
also
talked
about
individuals
who
were
on
site
at
the
time
you
know,
and
they
hope
they
were
given
training.
They
were
given
support
mechanisms.
K
C
I
can't
really
comment
on
what
the
feelings
are.
There's
an
investigation
you
know
on
what
I
can
see
is
real
as
keen
as
everybody
else
to
know,
because
all
the
processes
and
procedures
that
were
appropriate
and
the
extra
steps
that
were
taken
we're
all
in
place
that
had
all
been
operating
for
two
years.
So
we're
asking
to
understand,
as
everyone
else
I
suppose,
what's
happened
and
the.
K
C
L
You
can
be
no
good.
Excuse
me
good
morning,
gentlemen,
I,
just
a
couple,
quick
questions.
Could
you
just
educate
me
in
terms
of
protocol
on
a
construction
site
who
is
responsible
for
the
site
at
any
given
time
as
an
individual
as
an
organization,
and
does
it
change,
depending
on
the
time
of
day
or
what
activity
is
taking
place
on
site.
E
C
L
L
So,
just
two
weeks
after
the
fire
and
2018
there
was
a
statement
went
out
the
that
relationship
had
ended,
that
contract
had
ended.
Could
you
just
give
us
a
little
bit
more
detail
as
to
why
that
decision
was
made
so
quickly
and
circumstances
around
that
joint
statement
with
GSA,
and
if
that
was
an
amicable
decision.
C
C
We've
just
been
through
one
of
the
most
devastating
things
were
dealing
with
a
whole
host
of
things,
including
people
who
were
devastated
by
what
happened
and
the
impact
on
the
city
and
and
the
community
was
all
host
of
things
and
and
we
we
were
involved
and
that
we
met
with
a
class
of
school
and
the
design
team
just
shortly
afterwards
to
see
what
steps
could
be
taken
and
would
met
with
the
fire
service.
We
continue
to
do
that.
C
So
the
view
was
that
would
be
better
just
to
bring
that
contract
an
end,
and
that
would
allow
then
the
school
to
what
around
how
they
could
go
forward
from
there.
Part
of
that
was
because
possession
of
the
site
would
have
to
be
given
to
us,
and
that
seemed
to
us
a
sensible
thing
to
do
it,
and
it
was.
It
was
an
amicable
I
can
even
written.
There
was
no
exchanges
of
them
professional
exchanges
to
arrange
the
people
work.
Thank.
L
You
for
that
response
and
can
ask
them
in
a
previous
panel
a
session
on
this
there's
a
lot
of
conversation
around
what
should
happen
next
and
I
know.
The
discussion
is
very
much
around
retrospective,
look
at
the
circumstances
of
the
the
fires
etc,
but,
having
been
so
close
to
the
project
for
such
a
long
time
can
ask
if
anyone
on
the
panel
today
has
any
personal
views
or
corporate
views
on
on
what
should
happen
to
the
science
kill.
Next
I.
C
Think
speak
for
Kieran.
We
don't
feel
we
can
have
a
can
of
corporate
view
on
it,
because
it's
something
the
school
and
the
art
water
would
just
really
need
to
decide,
and
it's
not
the
stepping
back
from
it.
We
think
it's
probably
more
appropriate
that
and
the
school
and
the
layout
water
with
the
Saint
who
goes
forward
and
committee.
D
It
will
be
for
others
to
determine
what
happens
in
turn
in
relationship
to
the
our
school,
but
there
were
two
questions
that
we
would
have
had
at
the
back
of
our
mind
when
we
started
on
the
project.
A
number
of
suggestions
were
made
to
me
that
we
didn't
have
the
skills
in
Scotland
to
do
the
reconstruction
I
think
the
team
that
Kia
pulled
together
and
the
subcontractors
commitment
showed
we
do
have
those
skills
and
they
were
doing
a
beautiful
job.
Something
happened,
but
they
were
doing
a
very
beautiful
job.
D
The
other
question
is:
do
we
have
the
information
to
rebuild
a
post-2014?
We
were
not
sure,
but
we
were
overwhelmed
with
photographs
from
from
members
of
staff,
historic
photographs,
documentation
archives
were
found.
We
even
found
someone
who'd
taken
up
Nikki
plaster
cast
of
one
of
the
details
of
the
library
which
we
used
for
the
reconstruction.
He
didn't
want
his
name
to
be
known
because
he
wasn't
as
illegal.
It
wasn't
meant
to
do
that
and
as.
D
That
we
were
able,
then,
to
build
a
digital
model
to
find
a
way
to
do
it
in
a
3d
three-dimensional
way
of
all
that
information.
So
we
I
think
we
have
probably
the
most
advanced
information
on
an
existing
building
anywhere
in
the
world
in
terms
of
that
documentation.
So,
in
answer
to,
if
the
decision
was
taken
now
to
reconstruct,
we
think
we
have
that
information
and
part
of
that
was.
D
We
had
an
exchange
with
for
four
years
with
an
Erasmus
school
and
a
university
nicolaus
copernicus,
because
in
Poland
their
students
came
across
half
their
time
was
spent
measuring
all
the
rooms
that
weren't
damaged
in
the
first
fire,
so
that
information
we
didn't
have
that
before
we
had
to,
we
had
to
go
back
to
all
drawings.
We
have
the
information
to
reconstruct.
If
that
is
the
decision,.
I
Supplementary
in
sense
of
you're
talking
about
potential
reconstruction,
and
that's
was
that
on
a
timely
basis,
brings
us
to
the
issue
of
the
insurance
policy,
which
was
in
the
joint
names
of
GAC
and
kir.
I
understand
I
wish
to
clarify
is
let
me
it
was
mentioned
earlier
in
this
evidence
session
that
there
was
this
five-point
plan
which
included
mist
suppression.
How
was
that
five-point
plan
reflected
in
any
conditions
in
the
insurance
policy.
I
I
I
I
C
I
C
C
I
Know
whether
the
work
kind
of
add
on
conditions,
because,
obviously
you're,
looking
at
an
insurance
policy
that
was
taken
out,
not
just
you
know,
a
sort
of
average,
run-of-the-mill
insurance
policy,
it
was
taken
out
after
there
had
already
been
a
catastrophic
fire.
So
it
begs
the
question:
would
there
have
been
any
add
on
conditions?
We.
E
Were
not
party
to
the
details
of
the
disagree,
the
insurance
but
and
I'm
not
aware
that
there
were
any
specific
requirements
that
came
from
the
insurance
policy
that
had
to
be
applied
on-site.
What
we
were
being
asked
to
do
was
to
use
teeth
to
to,
as
I
said
before,
just
go
through
that
process
of
full
risk
assessment
and
prepare
an
appropriate
phone
and
emergency
plan.
C
I
can
answer
the
detail
of
the
policy
today,
I'm
afraid
I,
don't
have
the
the
detailed
knowledge
of
the
insurance
aspects.
I
know
the
headlines
over
I
think
it
would
be
wrong,
but
but
the
information
should
be
able
to
be
provided
a
glass
glass
to
a
school
I'm
sure
it
would
be
able
to
evade
that
when
they
come.
What.
E
I
would
say
is
that
when
I,
when
I
referred
earlier
to
the
joint
code
of
practice
that
governs
the
the
actions,
the
fire
prevention
actions,
the
the
the
joint
code
actually
refers
to
the
British,
the
Association
of
British
Insurers.
There
are
joint
authors
of
that
document.
So
what
we
in
in
this
instance,
would
say
is
that,
if
we're
working
that
we
are,
we
are
normally
covering
all
the
issues
that
an
insurance
company
would
require
if
there
were
over
and
beyond
requirements.
A
Already
heard
that
you
know
those
fire
that
the
fire
safety
plan
they
you
have
to
put
in
place,
the
statutory
regulations
are
not
adequate
for
any
historic
building,
because
I
think
what
we're
asking
this?
What
extra
that
you
could
given
the
precious
nature
to
this
building,
because
the
fire
safety
regulations
are
about
evacuating
people
not
about
preserving
precious
asses.
A
D
A
A
A
A
During
the
wall,
construction
fees,
the
the
thing
that
accelerated
the
fire
in
the
first
place,
that
problem
was
kept
in
place
and
we
know
that
during
a
construction
work.
So
if
it
has
started
buildings
that
are
very
they're
very,
very
vulnerable.
But
you
kept
the
docks
and
please
you
didn't
deal
with
the
fire.
Stopping
immediately.
D
D
A
Anyone
from
the
art
school
raise
that
with
you
as
an
issue.
We've
already
heard
that
the
art
school
had
a
project
manager
and
all
sorts
of
people
were
supervising
it
to
Danny
buddy
step
in
and
ask
the
question
I'm
asking,
though,
why
didn't
used
to
top
the
fire
and
those
docks?
What
can
we
do
to
ensure
that
the
building
see
if,
during
the
concert,
reconstruction
was.
A
Actually,
sorry
I'm
sorry
sent
it
up
and
I
don't
want
to
be
rude,
but
who
don't
have
much
time
left?
Did
anyone
from
the
other
question
I'm
asking
you?
Is
there
anyone
from
the
art-school
the
client
stepping
at
any
point
and
say
we
need
to
deal
with
these
dockets
that
caused
the
previous
fire
tech
salary?
No,
we
need
to
deal
with
them.
An
a-lister
did
anyone
from
the
article
step
in
and
tell
you
to
find
a
way
to
do
that.
I.
E
Don't
recall
that
they
were
very
much
part
of
understanding
what
the
build
processes
and
these
ducts
were
being
used
for
pipe
work
and
for
cables,
and
they
were
at
the
time
of
the
fire.
All
of
that
installation
was
ongoing.
So
there
was
a
myriad
of
cables
and
pipes
going
up
through
the
through
these
spaces,
which
would
be
closed
off
in
due
course.
Yeah.
C
C
A
Final
question
is:
in
April
2018
professor
John
Cole
brought
a
report
in
here
into
Keeler's
work
in
dg1,
a
leisure
center
in
Dumfries
and
he's
obviously
a
very
respected
expert
and
he
was
extremely
critical
of
Kier's
work
or
not
building,
and
he
was
extremely
critical.
The
fire
stopping
and
not
building-
and
it
was
a
pretty
devastating
report
and
understand
that
you
made
a
settlement
mr.
A
McQuade,
with
Dumfries
and
Galloway
Council,
because
of
the
inadequacy
of
your
work
or
not
building,
and
when
you
the
it
was
widely
publicized
and
not
just
in
the
specialist
press,
but
also
in
the
the
the
Scottish
press
and
can
I
ask
page
in
Park
what
you
did
as
a
result
of
the
publication
of
professor
calls
report.
Did
you
did
you
go
back
to
care
to
make
sure
that
they
were
installing
the
adequate
fire
stopping
and
and
in
Glasgow
School
of
Art,
where
y'all
I'm
told
by
professor
course
report
what.
E
I'll,
take
you
back
to
is
that
the
whole
procurement
process
on
for
for
this
project,
the
the
it
was
a
very
rigorous
process
to
select
the
contractor,
and
in
the
first
place
this
was
led
by
the
GSA
and
their
project
managers.
A
shortlist
was
drawn
up
and
there
was
a
rigorous
questioning
and
scoring
on
that,
and
out
of
that
came
a
decision
to
appoint
Kier
who
were
showed
themselves
to
be
appropriate.