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A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
thirty
Seconds
meeting
of
the
committee
in
2018,
I'd
like
to
remain
members
and
the
public
to
turn
off
mobile
phones
and
any
members
using
electronic
devices
to
access
committee
papers
should
please
ensure
that
they're
turned
to
silent.
The
first
item
on
the
agenda
today
is
consideration
of
the
census.
Amendment
Scotland
bill
at
stage
one
and
this
morning,
we'll
be
taking
evidence
from
two
panels
and
I
would
like
to
start
by
welcoming
our
first
panel.
A
We
have
a
Rosa
Friedman,
professor
of
law,
conflict
and
global
development
at
Reading,
University
and
Susan
Smith
from
the
Organization
for
Women
Scotland.
Thank
you
for
coming
to
give
evidence
to
us
today
and
for
your
written
submission
before
I
moved
to
questions
and
just
for
clarity,
because
this
bill
has
just
been
introduced.
It
might
be
helpful
for
the
record
and
to
see
make
a
few
remarks
about
the
purpose
of
the
bill
and
the
explanatory
notes
accompanying
the
bill.
A
It
states
that
the
purpose
of
the
bill
is
to
make
questions
on
sexual
orientation
and
gender
identity
and
the
2021
census.
Voluntary
and
we've
been
told
as
a
committee,
that
the
wording
of
these
questions,
if
they're
asked,
will
be
preform
at
a
later
date
and
Parliament
will
build
to
deliberate
on
them.
Then,
however,
the
bill
is
introduced
also
makes
a
change
to
the
schedule
of
the
1920
census
bill
by
inserting
the
words,
including
gentle
identity,
after
sex
and
while
it's
not
in
the
bill.
A
We
understand
that
consideration
being
given
to
include
a
third
option
in
the
sex
question
to
include
a
third
option
as
well
as
male
and
female,
and
that's
in
addition
to
the
gender
identity
question
which
is
proposed
to
be
asked,
and
so
several
of
our
pieces
of
written
evidence
have
pointed
out
that
this
completes
the
Tim
sex
with
gendered
identity
and
that
that
is
problematic.
We
have
received
a
letter
this
morning
from
the
national
records
of
Scotland,
who
are
the
bill
team
and
they
have
a.
A
That's
all
clear
and
I
shall
now
I'd
like
to
ask
professor
Friedman
from
a
legal
point
of
view
and
your
view
on
this
particular
aspect
of
the
bill,
because
in
your
submission
you
see
conflating
sex
and
gender
identity
well
under
Maine
sakes,
a
separate
category
protected
by
law
and
I
assume
that
you're
saying
that
you're
concerned
about
this,
because
it's
a
it's
a
precedent.
Yes,.
B
Indeed,
thank
you
for
inviting
me
to
come
today.
Indeed,
if
we
separate
sex
and
gender
assignment
gender
identity,
gender
presentation,
however,
the
wording
might
become
then
we
are
keeping
two
separate
protected
characteristics,
as
we
have
under
law,
in
the
same
way
that
we
wouldn't
conflate
race
and
religion
or
other
protected
characteristics.
Bringing
this
idea
of
a
third
category
into
sex,
a
third
category
being
a
non-binary
gender
intersex
or
bringing
together
gender
identity
and
sex
in
one
question,
is
bringing
together
two
protected
characteristics
and
thus
undermining
both
of
them.
A
B
Well,
currently,
internationally
at
the
regional,
the
European
level
and
currently
within
the
UK,
we
don't
have
definitions
of
gender
identity
in
Massachusetts
they
say
gender
identity,
it's
the
gender
that
someone
identifies
as
and
that's
their
law
in
terms
of
international
law.
Gender
identity
is
the
similar
to
what
Stonewall
says
it's
an
umbrella
term
for
various
different
individuals,
whether
it's
people
who've
had
gender
reassignment.
People
are
transsexual,
whether
it's
people
who
are
transvestites
who
are
cross,
dressers
and
all
sorts
of
other
people
as
well.
B
So
it's
a
long
list,
but
it's
not
a
definition
so
protecting
gender
identity
or
putting
gender
identity
into
the
census,
without
a
definition
with
lack
clarity,
would
require
a
definition
in
terms
of
moving
forward
for
law,
but
gender
reassignment
is
currently
protected.
Gender
reassignment
is
what
we
have
under
the
gender
recognition
act.
It's
about
a
meaningful
transition.
There's
there's
certain
criteria.
You
have
to
live
for
two
years
in
the
in
the
preferred
sex
that
you
that
you
would
like
to
be
identified
with
you
have
to
have
medical
certificates
and
so
on.
B
C
We're
really
concerned
about
the
fee
for
the
users
that
obviously
biological
sex
is
immutable.
Humans
are
sexually
dimorphic
and
there
are
various
implications
for
health
providers,
especially
how
many
cervical
screening
programs
do
you
need
to
roll
out.
There
are
also
issues
about
public
secretary
quality
duties
to
find
under
the
Equality
Act,
so
looking
at
pay
gaps
when
we're
considering
here
is
doing
the
caring
in
society.
C
So
we
think,
from
the
point
of
view
of
the
users,
it's
really
important
to
have
a
clear
definition
on
the
one
hand
of
biological
sex
for
the
provision
of
the
services
and
the
protections
that
people
will
need
under
equality
duty
and
on
the
other
hand,
if
the
additional
question
is
to
be
asked
about
gender
identity,
and
it
needs
to
be
worked
out
with
the
users
what
they
need
that
information
for
and
how
they
can
best
utilize
that.
So
it's
very
important
if
they
are
saying,
there's
a
need
for
that.
C
A
B
Is
why
we
need
to
go
back
to
definitions,
so
the
number
of
people
with
a
gender
recognition
certificate
is
very
small,
and
maybe
the
number
of
people
who
are
what
traditionally
would
be
known
as
transsexuals
is
very
small,
but
in
terms
of
people
who
identify
as
being
non-binary,
particularly
young
people,
people
who
identify
within
the
broader
umbrella
of
gender
identity
as
Stonewall
defines
it.
We
don't
know
what
those
numbers
are
and
it
might
be
important
to
have
a
gender
identity
question
that
separate
to
sex
with
a
very
clear
definition
of
what
gender
identity
means.
B
In
order
to
gather
that
data
of
how
many
people
there
are,
because
none
of
us
know-
and
this
is
one
of
the
this-
has
been
one
of
the
big
things
across
all
the
consultations
across
all
of
Europe
around
self-identification-
is
we
don't
know
the
numbers
in
terms
of
in
terms
of
data
I?
Think
it's
important
to
keep
sex,
obviously
separate,
but
to
have
something
on
gender
identity.
We
need
to
know
the
data
around
domestic
violence
in
terms
of
trans,
identifying
individuals.
We
need
to
know
the
data
around
suicides.
B
We
need
to
know
the
data
around
pay
gaps.
We
need
to
know
the
data
around
people
who
are
forced
into
intersex
work
because
lots
of
things
are
bandied
around
and
this
is
a
very
vulnerable
community
and
actually
having
a
very
separate
question
would
allow
us
to
gather
that
data
and
to
be
able
to
provide
the
services
needed
for
that
community.
Keeping
this
sort
of
broad
term
gender
identity
of
that
definition
doesn't
allow
any
of
us
to
help
protect
this.
This
group,
okay,.
D
Thank
you
can
be
know
as
the
convener
outlines.
The
legislation
were
in
front
of
us
is
about
making
a
set
of
questions
today.
Do
you
support
the
proposal
to
include
questions
on
at
the
moment
is
to
find
as
religions
already
in
that
category
and
it
suggests
Adnan
sexual
orientation
and
gender
identity?
Are
you
happy
worse,
those
been
voluntary,
and
are
you
happy
with
the
definitions
that
are
used?
C
But
yes,
it's
I
think
it
probably
is
important.
I
it's
not
really
something!
That's
within
the
remit
from
the
point
of
view
we're
looking
at
the
impact
on
women
and
girls,
obviously,
but
clearly
there
are
reasons
why
people
are
not
comfortable
with
revealing
sexual
orientation,
and/or
gender
identity,
so
I
think
it's
it's
fair
that
that
should
be
voluntary.
Yes,
I
think.
B
So
I
think
in
terms
of
definitions,
like
I
said
no
one
has
defined
this
properly
and
the
United
Nations
haven't
defined
this
properly.
The
European
Court
of
Human
Rights
haven't
to
find
this
properly.
I.
Think
if
you,
if,
if
anyone
is
going
to
include
something
like
this
in
a
census,
there
needs
to
be
a
definition
so
that
the
people
who
are
answering
this
can
answer
it
correctly
and
can
answer
it
to
the
best
of
their
ability.
I'm,
not
particularly
happy
with
the
definitions
set
out
I.
B
D
Then,
returning
to
the
sex
question,
even
though
the
piece
of
legislation
was
in
front
of
us
doesn't
address
that,
though
I
think
that
are
issues
with
drafting
that
committee,
if
you've
had
a
chance
to
look
at
the
belt.
To
that
degree,
you
might
want
to
comment
on
what
was
gone.
Toss
was
the
the
bill
team
and
the
government
argue
that
the
first
question,
which
was
a
banal
equation,
has
already
are
self
identifying
question
and
that
the
guidance
that
companied
the
2011
census
shows
that
we
already
have
that.
C
Yeah,
that's
very
that's.
A
very
important
point.
I
mean
certainly
I.
Women's
groups
were
not
consulted
on
this.
As
far
as
we're
aware,
I
think
it's
something
that
slipped
in
under
the
radar.
Maybe
it's
an
opportunity
to
break
it
back
out
again,
because,
whilst
I'm
sure
there
are
going
to
be
people
who
will
answer
any
question
in
a
way
that
not
in
a
way
that
they
interpret
it's
it's,
the
idea
that
you
can
self
define
sex
has
to
be
supported.
C
I
think
if
we
are
going
to
change
definitions
of
sax,
you
are
going
to
have
to
provide
a
body
of
evidence
and
get
chief
medical
officer
report
and
something
from
chief
scientific
officer,
and
currently
there
is
no
scientific
basis
for
arguing
that
there
is
any
fluidity
in
sex
that
there
are
any
third.
There
is
no
third
gamete
there.
There
are
any
human
beings
who
have
moved
from
one
sex
to
another.
So
it's
there's
no
real
life
Therese!
Yes,
it's
not
it's
not
something
that
is,
is
possible
within
the
human
species.
B
Mean
from
a
little
point
of
view,
the
law
is
very
clear
from
the
April
Ashley
case,
the
corpora
incorpor
case
in
1970
of
a
very
sort
of
famous
high
society
transsexual
who
married
a
man
and
they
wanted
to
have
the
the
marriage
annulled.
She
didn't
want
to
get
divorced
and
he
caught
looked
at
whether
or
not
to
annul
the
marriage
on
the
basis
that
she
was
a
male
and
two
males
could
not
get
married
at
that
time
under
law
or
whether
to
allow
the
marriage
on
the
basis
that
and
they
haven't
consummated
marriage.
B
And
it's
it's
quite
a
short
case,
and
it
goes
into
quite
a
lot
of
detail.
As
to
the
the
judge
was
a
medical
man
and
he
looked
into.
How
do
we
define
sex
and
he
says:
look
sex
is
around
biology
and
there
are
three
types:
there's
chromosomes,
there's
gonads
and
this
I'm.
Sorry
it's
early
in
the
morning
for
this
Cronos,
those
there's
gonads
and
this
genitalia,
and
sometimes
you
might
only
have
two
of
the
three.
B
So
he
went
into
her
loss
around
intersex
that
some
children
are
born
with
internal
testes
and
maybe
an
external
vagina
and
chromosomes
a
male
so
slightly
different
to
to
what
the
average
or
the
regular
would
be
and
talked
about
how
one
would
have
to
maybe
open
up
the
vagina
to
allowed
to
testes
to
descend,
but
that
doesn't
stop
a
person
being
male,
because
there's
two
of
the
three
he
also
talked
about
the
psychological
sex,
which
is
transsexuals
or
at
the
time.
The
time
we
used
was
transsexuals.
B
B
F
What
you've
said
the
witnesses
to
follow
the
qualitynet
once
Scottish
transalliance
of
forgiveness,
a
document
and
then
the
evidence,
they've
said
and
I
quote
a
non-binary
person
as
a
person
identifying
as
a
or
having
a
gender
which
is
in
between
or
beyond
the
two
categories,
man
and
women,
as
fluctuating
between
man
and
women
or
as
having
no
gender,
whether
permanently
or
some
of
the
time.
So
how
do
you
feel
about
that
I
mean
in
their
in
the
accuracy
of
that
I?
Think
the
reality
by
a
new
perception,
I
think.
B
Gender
is
a
social
construct
and
sex
is
biology,
and
so,
if
gender
is
a
social
construct,
it's
the
norms
that
we
expect
from
one
another
that
we've
been
socialized
and
raised
with
that
society
expects
from
us
and
that
we
learn
very
early
on
no
matter.
You
know
what
we're
learning
at
home.
We
learn
from
the
world
around
us.
If
gender
is
a
social
construct,
then
of
course
people's
gender
can
be
fluid.
People's
gender
cannot
exist.
People
stand
up
in
change,
but
your
sex
is
a
fact.
It's
a
biological
reality
in
the
Netherlands.
B
B
Personally
and
from
a
legal
point
of
view,
there's
no
issue
with
how
you
want
to
define
your
gender,
but
gender
is
not
currently
a
protected
characteristic
in
law,
so
you
can
define
your
gender
in
any
way,
but
your
sex
remains
your
protected
characteristic
in
law
under
the
Equality
Act,
and
there
remains
exemptions
for
things
like
sex,
segregated
services.
Yeah,
so
it's
just
about
moving
them
away
from
one
another
in
order
to
define
them.
No.
F
You
have
concerns
about
if
we
don't
get
this
right
in
your
view
that
it
will
effectively
under
Maine
safe
spaces
for
women,
for
example,
em
and
hello,
people
who
are
declared
as
women,
but
are
biologically
male,
not
no
gender
reassignment,
whatever
either
through
surgery
or
hormones
or
whatever,
to
be
able
to
go
to
all
women
events
and
participate
in
all
women
issues.
And
you
think
that
so
is
that
a
concern
for
you
in
terms
of
how
that
may
impact
or.
C
C
There's
there's
a
conflation,
as
we
said,
between
sex
and
gender
and
for
many
people
it's
it's
for
a
lot
of
people.
It's
not
an
issue
for
a
lot
of
women,
it's
not
an
issue,
but
there
are
people
who
need
protections
and
deserve
protections,
and
it's
very
important
that
that
remains
robust,
that
that
and
sex
is
obviously
a
protected,
characteristic
inequality
act
and
we
have
seen
recently
quite
a
lot
of
conflation
across
especially
councils.
This
idea
that
it's
about
gender
rather
than
sex
and
I,
think
as
part
of
a
long
term
project.
It
really
does
need.
C
If
we
are
going
to
start
talking
about
gender
in
sex.
We
do
need
to
be
very,
very
clear
where
one
applies
and
where
the
other
applies,
because
otherwise
it
will
create
problems
and
it
will.
It
will
unfortunately,
create
problems
for
girls
and
when
young
women,
especially
and
and
I,
think
well.
I
understand
young
women's
urges
to
identify
out
of
sex-based
depression
by
saying
I'm
non-binary.
C
Unfortunately,
I
don't
think
the
world
works
like
that
I,
don't
think
they
will
benefit
from
being
non-binary,
I,
think
I,
think
the
men
behind
me
say
it
is
really
important
that
even
though
they
might
identify
as
non-binary,
they
are
still
protected
if
they
are
women
on
the
basis
that
they
will
face
discrimination,
and
they
may
well
face
abuse
because
they
are
women.
So.
B
Yes,
yes,
but
I,
don't
even
say
what
is
your
sex
of
birth
because
you
can't
change
your
sex,
so
it
is
what
is
your
sex?
So
even
this
idea-
and
this
language
and
I
think
discourse
and
language,
particularly
where
it
comes
to
a
bill,
is
so
important
because
it
sets
precedence.
What
is
your
sex?
It's
the
same
question
as
well:
digital
sex
at
birth,
because
you
cannot
change
your
sex.
Every
part
of
your
DNA
has
chromosomes,
which
are
the
same
chromosomes
as
when
you're
born
I.
F
Sorry
the
reason
I
was
asking
that,
but
that's
because
it's
to
really
spell
oh,
if
you
like,
because
some
people
may
say
well,
I,
consider
myself
to
the
making
themselves,
make
conflate
gender
with
sex
and
if
you
don't
actually
make
absolutely
crystal
clear
by
seeing
that
both
people
themselves
made
to
say
well
actually,
I
was
I
was
born
male,
but
I
consider
myself
to
be
female
and
they
themselves
marked
the
wrong
box
and
therefore
we
don't
get
the
data
that
you're
requesting.
So
it's
just
about
it's
just
a
question
of
clarification
rather
than
anything
else.
F
B
B
There'll
always
be
people
that
maybe
don't
tell
full
truths
on
a
census
right
for
whom
theirs
might
be
a
question,
that's
slightly
political
or
that
you
know,
but
I
think
having
a
clarification.
Question
sentence
will
help
the
vast
majority
of
people
to
realize
which
questions
are
relating
to
what
and
I
think
it's
I
think
most
people
realize
why
it's
so
important
to
have
the
two
questions.
Thank
you.
Thanks
give
you
thanks.
G
Pick
up
on
on
that
point
good
morning
and
thank
you
for
coming
in
and
so
the
issue
of
the
guidance
I
mean
there
is,
as
has
been
said,
already
guidance
under
the
2011
census
as
regards
the
mandatory
sex
question
which,
as
we
have
established,
is
not
actually
part
of
this
bill.
But
it
is
a
topic
of
discussion
and
the
guidance
is
about
self-identification
and
it's
a
mr.
Gibson
suggested.
Perhaps
then
our
guidance
could
be
amended
to
be
sex
at
birth
and
I,
hear
what
you
say
about
that.
G
But
what
about
then?
You
know
taking
it
out
of
what's
in
your
mind,
but
just
what
the
biology
is,
what
your
birth
certificate
says
without
being
approached
taking
into
account.
Of
course,
this
is
being
sort
of
suggested
on
the
basis
that
there
presumably
will
be
a
voluntary
question
on
gender
identity.
However,
that
is,
is
phrased,
so
the
two
things
kind
of
going
in
tandem,
but
in
different
parts,
I.
C
Obviously,
two
numbers
again
and
needing
to
have
proper
impact
assessments,
because
we
just
don't
know
what
what
these
numbers
are
going
to
be.
At
the
moment
we
have
no
real
research
or
evidence
and
guess
what,
how
that's
going
to
turn
out
and
I
think
when
the
GRE
was
introduced.
One
of
the
arguments
about
it
was
that
this
was
a
very,
very
small
number
of
people.
It
was
the
same
argument.
C
That's
been
made
with
regards
to
this
that
when
it's
such
a
tiny
number
of
people,
it's
not
going
to
impact
the
integrity
of
the
dater
and
it's
not
going
to
have
a
massive
impact
on
society.
But
the
argument
was
made
that
if
this
became
more
widespread,
then
it
would
be
problematical.
And
of
course,
now
we
are
in
a
situation
where
we
don't
know
how
widespread
it's
going
to
be,
and
so
that
does
mean
we
do.
You
have
to
be
very
clear
on
on
definitions
and
what
we
are
actually
looking
at.
Why.
G
Are
you
what
you
see
in
that
regard
and
you
know
just
trying
to
find
a
way
through
all
this,
which
is
oh,
very
you
know
complex
stuff
may
well
be
then
that
mr.
Gibson's
suggestion
is
perhaps
the
best
way
forward,
because
your
sakes
at
birth
that
you
saves
at
birth
and
it
is
you
know,
the
guidance
system
is
designed
to
try
to
be
helpful
to
people
who
me
who
may
look
at
a
question
and
think
I.
G
Don't
know
what
my
answer
should
be
to
that
and
then
they
can
go
and
look
at
guidance
and
the
guidance
can
clarify
what
position
so
I
mean
in
law.
You
know
it
have.
A
definition.
Section
is
quite
normal
approach
to
to
legislation,
so
it
seems
then,
in
light
of
what
you're
saying
that
that
maybe
are
we
forward
in
this
debate.
I
think
that.
B
C
C
No
I
don't
want
to
get
into
a
you
know
it's
not
about
individual
rights
or
individual
choices.
It's
nothing
to
do
with
that.
It's
to
do
with
science
and
what
the
needs
of
those
people
will
be
based.
Medical
medical
needs,
apart
from
anything
else,
if
you're
a
woman
at
some
point,
you
will
need
to
have
cervical
screening
done,
and
you
know
we
so
recently
that
and
the
research
campaign
for
cervix
have
us.
C
There
are
people
who
struggle
with
those
with
that
language.
There
are
people
who
struggle
with
medical
terminology,
so
that's
why
it's
so
important
that
whatever
somebody's
identity
and
I
I
have
no
issue
with
people
having
personal
agency.
Of
course,
not
that's,
that's
basic
tenants
of
our
civilization,
but
there
are
going
to
be
medical
issues
and
at
some
point
they
may
need
recourse
to
services.
I.
Think
it's
true!
C
H
God,
rosa
mentioned
intersex
people,
so
a
specific
question
about
that
I'd
like
to
explore
in
relation
to
the
the
question
on
sex
now.
Obviously,
some
intersex
people
would
be
comfortable
identifying,
for
example,
in
the
census
as
being
male
or
female.
Others
don't
think
that's
an
accurate
reflection
of
them,
given
that
the
census
is
about
collecting
data,
for
example
using
piling
of
healthcare
provision.
B
Where
it
comes
to
intersex
people,
an
intersex
person
will
either
have
prostate
cancer
checks
or
will
have
survival
screenings.
Okay,
because
an
intersex
person
will
either
be
male
or
female
will
fall
into
one
of
the
categories
in
terms
of
health
care.
Now,
of
course,
there
are
complex
needs
like
every
single
one
of
us
has
right
so
for
an
intersex
person
there
might
be
complex
needs,
so
some
intersex
females
do
not
produce
they
produce
testosterone,
but
don't
use
their
bodies
can't
regulate
testosterone
at
all
right.
B
So
that's
completely
different
to
all
of
us
in
the
room,
but
that
doesn't
stop
that
person
being
female
and
needing
a
cervical
cancer
screening.
It
means
that
might
need
some
additional
health
care
based
on
that
that
slight
difference
in
their
chromosomes
and
in
the
way
that
their
bodies
balance
a
little
bit
like
my
partner
with
asthma
needs
additional
screenings
in
terms
of
lungs
and
capacity
but
hold
on
I'm
going
to
I'm
going
to
finish.
I'll
come
back
to
you
and
it's
in
terms
of
law.
The
law
very
clearly
states
that
there
is
male
and
female.
B
The
medical
evidence
very
clearly
shows
that
there's
male
and
female
intersex
is
a
vet
slight
variation
on
what
might
be
the
average
male
whatever.
That
means
for
the
average
female.
But
it's
not
a
third
sex
and
in
fact
many
of
the
intersex
Awareness
groups
and
campaigners
have
been
very
clear
that
they
are
not
a
third
sex,
that
they
are
being
co-opted
and
used
in
these
debates.
In
order
to
move
political
points
or
in
order
to
try
and
promote
changes
to
terminology
and
understanding
that
is
not
true
and
not
based
on
medical
evidence.
B
Now
I
am
NOT.
An
expert
on
intersex
and
I
am
NOT
myself.
Intersex
and
I
will
not
speak
for
the
intersex
community,
but
I
would
strongly
encourage
you
to
read
what
they
are
saying,
because
their
voices
are
not
being
heard
and
they
are
being
co-opted
and
used
in
a
way
that
they
are
very
angry
about.
We.
H
C
H
B
Absolutely
there's
two
countries
where,
where
intersex
has
actually
been
foregrounded
and
really
protected
in
terms
of
in
terms
of
you
know
additional
needs
and
that
one
is
Germany
and
one
is
Malta
and
in
neither
of
those
countries
have
they
said.
Intersex
is
another
sex
category,
but
there
has
been
a
level
of
awareness
raising
both
in
terms
of
intersex
needs,
but
also
in
terms
of,
and
we're
now
going
completely
off-topic
the
rights
of
children.
B
Okay,
you
are
a
child
born
who
is
intersex,
who
has
an
intersex
the
agency
of
that
child
to
consent,
the
choice
of
medical
practitioners,
the
choice
of
parents
right-
and
these
are
I
mean
these
sort
of
complex
human
rights
issues.
Because
do
you
know
the
the
standard
practice
has
always
been
that
the
doctors
or
the
parents
or
between
them
or
one
Arthur,
chooses?
But
what
about
that
child's
right
to
choose
and
are
you
allowed
to
intervene
in
that
way?
B
I
think
there's
all
sorts
of
questions
around
intersects
that
need
to
be
unpacked
across
this
country
across
the
UK
across
Europe
and
they're
not
being
addressed
properly,
but
I.
Don't
think
that
this
is
to
do
with
gender
identity,
I
think
intersex,
which,
which
is
a
significant
you
know,
population
I,
think
1.7,
1.8
percent.
B
B
Maybe
you
could
put
it
in
it
might
be.
Might
could
have
a
question
saying
right,
so
what
is
your
sex,
male
or
female?
Do
you
have?
Do
you
have
an
intersex
condition
right?
They
might
be
like
you
might
say,
what
is
your
gender
identity
or
what
is
your
sexual
orientation?
It
could
be
another
voluntary
question
if
you're
worried
about
data
on
intersex,
but
it
shouldn't
be
lumped
into
the
sex
question.
It
ought
to
be
part
of
the
voluntary
questions
on
what
is
your
sex?
That's
your
protected
characteristic.
C
Most
intersex
conditions
are
unambiguously
male
of
him
they-they-they
any
effect.
An
intersex
condition
will
only
affect
a
male
or
will
only
affect
a
female,
so
we
know
we're
there
and
I
think
it's
quite
important
not
to
other
people
to
suggest
that
they
are
somehow
not
a
proper
man
or
not
a
problem
and
I
think
that's
it
borders
on
some
very
difficult
and
potentially
tricky
territory.
C
If
you,
if
you
try
to
tell
people
that
they
don't
have
that
they're
not
quite
fully
formed
as
a
human
being,
it's
not
and
it's
medical
condition
its
medical
condition
of
sexual
development.
It's
not
an
identity
question,
so
yeah
I
think
roses
point
about
potentially
having
a
backup
another.
Another
question
is
is
possible
if
you,
if
there's
a
need
to
collect
the
data,
but
it
probably
really
does
need
to
be
done
carefully.
So
these
people
don't
feel
that
they've
been
pushed
into
a
third
category
which
they
really
shouldn't
be
in.
B
You
know
we
know
that
trans
identify
individuals,
we
know
that
sexual
orientation
minorities,
we
know
that
people
of
ethnic
minorities
will
face
more
discrimination,
even
though
the
law
protects
and
they'll
face
more
discrimination,
more
vulnerability
right
and
then
then
you
know
your
average
straight
white
man.
Do
we
know
that
about
intersex
people?
I,
don't
know
because
it's
not
it's
not
something
right.
So
this
is
about
medical
data.
B
This
might
be
about
impact
on
on
on
your
health
and
well-being,
but
if
the
purpose
of
having
these
additional
questions,
which
are
normally
around
the
Equality
Act,
is
around,
how
do
we
protect
vulnerable
groups
from
marginalization
and
discrimination?
I
think
this
is
a
question
for
you,
because
your
Parliament's,
you
know
whether
or
not
you
need
that
data
on
intersex,
but
that's
certainly
from
a
from
a
law
point
view
it
you
know,
having
a
third
option
of
intersex
goes
against
everything
that
the
doll
says
of
what
sex
is.
I
You
convener
at
present
you
know
gender
identity
and
sexual
orientation.
The
data
is
used
by
local
government
and
other
public
bodies
to
fulfill
their
equalities
duties.
Now
that
data
will
continue
to
be
collected,
but
if
there
is
a
change,
then
the
implications
for
that
within
these
organizations
could
be
massive
depending
on
how
that
this
progress
I'd
like
to
get
some
of
your
views
on
how
you
think
that
would
be
managed.
If
that
was
the
case,.
C
Well,
that's
really
why
we
come
back
to
having
these
questions
the
integrity
of
these
questions,
because
that
is
the
point
it's
it
comes
back
really
to
what
is
the
census
for
and
if
the
census
is
I'm
sure
you'll
all
agree,
because
it's
it's
a
it's
a
vast
undertaking
and
it's
an
expense
for
government,
so
it
has
to.
It
has
to
have
a
purpose,
and
that
purpose
really
is
to
provide
you
with
the
evidence.
C
C
So
if
people
can
say
male
or
female
and
there's
no
guidance
and
it
doesn't
matter,
then
you're
not
able
to
capture
the
biological
information
but
you're
also
not
capturing
any
information
that
you
need
to
protect
trans
communities,
because
you
don't
know
when
they've
answered
that
question
male
or
female,
whether
that
is
their
biological
sex
or
their
self-identified
gender.
So,
yes,
it's
a
really
really
important
data
point.
A
You
yes
could
I,
perhaps
go
back
to
some
of
the
questions
that
were
asked
earlier
for
a
little
bit
of
clarity,
particular
in
the
questions
from
Kenneth
Gibson,
followed
by
Annabel
Ewing.
When
you
were
talking
about
this
this
sex
question
and
how
you
define
it,
if
there's
also
a
gendered
identic
question,
which
is
voluntary
and
I,
think
the
issue
of
birth
certificates
same
keep
up.
If
the.
A
If
the
question
said
what
is
your
brother
sex
and
had
two
options,
would
it
be
acceptable
for
the
explanatory
notes
to
to
see
that
this
was
a
biological
definition,
because
people
would
get
the
opportunity
elsewhere
in
the
census
to
ask
about
that
to
ask
no
answer?
Questions
about
the
gender
identity,
I
think.
B
I
think
it's
it's
not
just
wouldn't
just
be
appropriate.
I
think
it's
actually
necessary
that
there
is
some
clarity
in
the
guidance
notes
they
explains
sexist
biology
explains,
you
know,
links
to
the
law
on
where
we
have
definitions
of
sex
and
then
says,
and
there
are
opportunities
to
discuss
gender
identity,
which
is
about
personal
agency
and
about
social
constructs
or
having
you
frame
that
language
and
to
make
it
really
clear.
Why
not
just
not
just
that?
B
You
know
the
number
of
people
whose
gender
identity
does
not
match
their
biological
sex
and
we
won't
be
able
to
understand
the
needs
of
that
group.
We
went
on
there
to
understand
pay
gaps
of
that
group
and
discrimination,
and
so
on
actually
personalize
it
and
makes
people
realize
that
the
purpose
of
the
census
isn't
about
self
validation.
The
purpose
of
the
census
is
about
being
able
to
plan
for
populations
and
demographics
and
provide
services
are
needed.
B
F
I
think
there's
a
kind
of
elf
in
the
room
here
that
we're
not
really
getting
to
I
tried
to
touch
her
and
my
original
question
and
that's
issue
of
women
feeling
safe
women's
safety
exit,
AM
and
dr.
Kathleen
stalk
is
not
actually,
he
have
said
and
I
caught
him.
She
basically
talks
about
sexual
orientation
question
and
said
basically
am
frivolously.
It
will
leave
room,
for
example,
late
transitioning,
male
trans
women,
who
are
heterosexual
of
penises
to
self-described
as
lesbians,
which
will
leave
the
data
not
for
purpose.
F
C
Is
obviously
it's
a
concern
because
and
but
it
you
know,
we
want
to
be
very
clear
that
we
are
not
and
certainly
not
as
a
group.
We
do
not
believe
that
is
the
main
reason
or
the
majority
reason
why
most
people
have
issues
around
gender
identity
from
these
people.
This
is
something
that
is
deeply
held
and
that
they
in
many
cases,
have
no
control
over
most
people.
I,
absolutely
you
know
they
genuine
and
in
their
gender
identity,
but
there
it.
There
are
concerns
about
people
who
will
exploit
it,
any
openings
and
I
suppose.
C
In
this
instance,
it
makes
the
data
as
Kathleen
said
not
fit
for
purpose,
and
the
wider
concern
for
society
is
that,
unfortunately,
there
are
individuals
who
you
know
they
will
join
the
Catholic
Church.
They
will
become
youth
leaders,
they
will
do
anything
to
exploit
openings,
and
that
is
is
tragic,
and
it's
sad
and
it's
no
reflection
on
the
broader
trans
community,
who
are
just
the
same
as
the
rest
of
us
and
just
want
to
get
on
with
their
lives
and
live
as
though
as
they
wish.
C
B
Where,
where
it
comes
to
having
data
both
on
sex
and
gender
identity,
that
allows
for
planning
say
for
prisons
or
for
refugees
to
be
able
to
have
services
that
are
sex,
segregated
and
uphold
the
Equality,
Act
and
also
services
that
are,
but
that
are
gender-neutral,
essentially
that
and
if
people
want
to
women
want
to
trans
identified.
People
want
to
come
together
in
that
space.
B
You
know
having
the
appropriate
services
that
uphold
the
protective
characteristics
of
everyone
in
terms
of
elephants
in
the
room,
without
slightly
away
from
from
the
topic
that
I'll
addresses
in
in
so
far
saying,
gender
identity
or
gender
they
have
to
self-identify
has
come
in
in
a
number
of
countries
around
Europe
ever
recent
years.
Do
you
mind
if
I
verify
Opik
slightly
to
answer
this?
B
You
know
until
about
2012-2013
many
countries
in
Europe.
If
someone
wanted
to
transition,
they
were
forced
to
be
sterilized
and
that
forced
sterilization
happened
in
countries
like
Belgium
Croatia,
Sweden,
Denmark
France.
We
didn't
have
that
in
this
country
we
don't
force
people
to
be
sterilized.
It's
a
grave
human
rights
violation
and
a
lot
of
the
laws
around
self-identification
of
gender
have
been
in
order
to
remedy
that
grave
human
rights
violation
that
was
going
on
in
a
country
like
Denmark,
where
there
six
million
people
and
self-identification
came
in
in
2014
of
gender.
B
There
have
already
cases
of
people
who
self-identified
I'm
not
talking
about
genuine
people
whose
gender
identities
does
not
match
the
second
bullet
people
that
self-identified
as
women
and
went
into
sex,
but
previously
sex,
segregated
spaces.
Now
you
know
women's
spaces
and
rape,
people
and
the
six
million
people
and
we're
already
having
these
cases
in
Denmark
and
in
Norway
in
a
country
like
Ireland,
where
self-id
came
in
and
it
didn't
even
force
people
to
be
sterilized.
They
just
didn't
recognize
that
there
was
such
a
thing
as
trans
right
until
they
brought
in
self-identification
or
sex.
B
Segregation
remains
imprisoned,
remains
in
schools
based
on
biological
sex,
not
based
on
gender
identity
and
in
Malta.
Whether
you
know
self-identification
came
in
there.
If
you
are
a
trans
women
and
you
go
to
a
female
prison,
you
have
separate
showering
facilities
and
seeking
facilities
and
prison
guards
can
choose
whether
or
not
they
searched
the
prison
guard
is
female.
These
are
really
complex
issues
and
no
one's
getting
them
completely
right
and
no
one's
fully
understanding.
B
In
order
to
know
what
needs
we
have
around
prisons,
we
need
to
know
how
many
trans
identifying
women
there
are
in
a
population.
We
can't
know
that
by
a
conflating
sex
and
gender
in
the
sensors
in
order
to
know
about
the
needs
of
say
refugees
or
Girl,
Guides
or
whatever
it
might
be,
we
need
to
know
the
numbers
of
these
populations.
B
We
need
to
meet
their
needs,
but
we
also
need
to
meet
the
needs
of
women
and
girls.
You
know
in
England
and
Wales,
two
women
are
killed
every
week
by
current
or
former
partner
every
week.
We
need
to
think
about
the
needs
of
women
and
girls
as
a
protected
characteristic
under
sex
as
much
as
we
need
to
think
about
the
needs
of
trans
individuals
under
the
gender
identity,
question
and
I.
C
But
the
prisons
question
obviously
that
person
you
need
the
data
for
prison
populations,
but
we
do
know
that,
unfortunately,
again
men
are
more
likely
to
commit
violent,
quite
overwhelmingly.
$0.98
violent
crime
is
committed
by
men
and
we
don't
really
see
any
change
in
male
pattern.
Violence
and
obviously
that
has
become
an
issue
with
men
who
are
placed
in
women's
prisons
and
they
do
tend
to
be
more
violent
offenders
and
women's
prisons
aren't
really
equipped
to
cope
with
that.
So
again,
that's
something
that
you
would
have
to
consider
when
you're
looking
at
data
sets.
C
F
B
B
So
but
again,
these
leads
become
really
complex
issues
because
you,
you
have
to
say
well.
If
a
trans
woman
has
to
write
a
private
and
family
life
under
article
8
of
the
European
Convention
on
Human
Rights.
Would
the
Girl
Guides
be
in
some
form
of
breach
of
you
know
their
duty
towards
that
trans
women?
If
they
were
to
inform
the
parent
I,
don't
know
we
haven't
had
a
test
case.
B
I
think
the
answer
is:
don't
have
self-identifying
trans
women
as
Girl
Guide
leaders,
because,
if
we're
going
to
think
about
the
proportionate
and
legitimate
aim
of
having
a
sex
segregated
spaces
in
the
Girl
Guides,
when
we're
going
to
think
about
the
harms
that
potentially
could
be
caused
to
the
girls
not
just
over
physical
violence
or
safety,
but
also
over
excluding
children
who
are
from
religious
backgrounds.
Who
would
not
be
then
allowed
to
join
proportionate
legitimate
aim?
Is
we
keep
the
sex
segregated
the
Girl
Guides.
F
A
So
we
have
your
dog
topic.
Can
I
ask
you,
because
we
were
talking
about
safeguarding
issues?
Has
there
been
any
reliable
data
captured
on
you?
You
mention
defending
race,
for
both
violent
crime
and
sexual
claimed
are
obviously
much
higher
amongst
people
of
the
meal
sakes.
We
know
that
that's
a
fact.
Has
any
data
been
captured
on
self,
identifying
trans
women.
B
So
there
was
recently
and
the
Guardian
had
to
retract
something
that
Professor
Steven
whistle
wrote
when
we
wrote
six
leave
win
rates.
It's
legal
opinions
on
the
gender
recognition
act
for
the
Guardian
making.
Six
weeks
ago,
two
months
ago
and
Professor
Steven
Whittle
had
put
in
that
trans
women
have
a
lower
offending
rate
will
have
the
same
offending
rates
as
females.
A
Swedish
study
has
shown
that
trans
women
have
the
same
offending
rates
as
men.
B
There
is
no
difference
in
terms
of
violent
offenses
as
to
whether
or
not
someone
has
transitioned
or
self-identifies
as
trans
or
whether
they
remain
a
man
having
been
born
male.
The
fact
that
the
Guardian
had
to
retract
this
and
has
changed
it
online
is
down
to
fair
pay
for
women
who
have
brought
out
these
statistics
into
the
public
realm
now.
Part
of
those
statistics
might
be
that
there
are
people
who
will
self-identify
as
a
woman
in
order
to
access
female
spaces
in
order
to
offend
right.
B
We're
not
saying
that
every
trans
individual,
like
I,
wouldn't
say
that
every
man
he's
going
to
be
a
violent
offender.
We
know
it's
a
very
small
minority
right,
not
all
men
and
not
all
trans
women
right.
That
being
said,
we
can't
take
the
individual
right
as
I'm
taking
away
from
the
general
rule,
and
the
general
rule
is
that
women
overwhelmingly
are
attacked
violently
by
male
body
to
people
and
the
male
bodied
people
are
the
overwhelming
violent
offenders.
Even
if
I
imagine
no
male-bodied
person
in
this
room
would
ever
dream
of
doing
such
a
thing.
D
You
know,
as
for
beautiful
topic,
well
I'm,
not
I'm,
not
just
not
this
I'm,
not
disputing
the
figures
that
you've
gave,
but
you
will
also
recognize
that
the
trans
community
are
often
more
often
the
victims
of
claim
and
have
a
high
level
of
physical
and
assault
among
the
trans
community.
That's
perpetrated
against
them.
Do
you
have
any
that
mean
the
concerns?
The
the
big
debate
is
a
gender
recognition
act,
that's
coming
forward
and
what
we're
looking
at
today,
which
has
a
toned
self-identification,
do
you
and
that's
where
the
debate
is
focused?
D
Do
you
recognize
it
in
some
ways?
That's
my
bad!
Oh
no,
do
you
agree
or
not
that
this
detract
moved
from
issues
around
violence
against
the
transgender
and
transphobia
against
also
that
access
to
medical
services,
other
issues
that
affect
that
community?
That
focus
is
very
much
on
self-identification.
Do
you
think
the
focus
a
little
bit
please,
but.
B
That's
why
that's
why
we
need
to
have
two
separate
questions,
because
we
don't
have
the
data
and
we
all
want
the
data,
because
we
all
I
hope
want
to
protect
every
vulnerable
and
marginalized
person
in
our
society,
and
we
know
that
the
trans
population
is
a
vulnerable
and
marginalized
group
in
society.
But
if
we
don't
have
the
data
on
how
many
trans
identifying
individuals
there
are
in
a
society,
we
can't
understand
what
the
discrimination
is.
We
can't
understand
what
the
levels
of
domestic
violence
are.
B
What
the
levels
of
suicide
rates
are,
what
the
levels
of
violence
in
the
street
is
what
the
level
of
forced
prostitution
is.
If
we
conflate
the
two
we're
never
going
to
be
able
to
meet
the
needs
of
this
very
marginalized
group.
And
yes,
of
course,
trans
individuals
face
massive
discrimination
in
society
without
a
shadow
of
doubt
and
violence.
Women
also
do
well.
The
reason
I
said
that
that
rate
of
two
women
a
week
in
England
Wales,
are
killed
by
current
or
former
partners.
This
is
not
recognized
enough.
B
We
also
know
that
there
have
been
12
murders
carried
out
by
trans,
identifying
individuals
over
that
same
period
of
time
and
each
murder
is
senseless
and
not
right.
We
only
have
these
few
tiny
figures,
because
we
don't
have
proper
census
data
right,
so
we're
all
grasping
around
in
the
dark
trying
to
work
out
how
to
help
a
very
marginalized
community.
B
C
Whether
there
are
differences
within
the
community
because
obviously
there
are
so
many
different
definitions
of
what
constitutes
a
trans
person
and
there
are
and
within
that
there
are
biological
males
and
biological
females,
so
having
robust
data
would
would
break
that
out
and
be
able
to
see
which
which
of
the
groups
were
at
most
risk
and
where
that
was
problematic,
I
mean
actually
on
point
about
violence's.
You
weren't
most
likely
to
be
a
victim
of
violence,
as
a
man
in
fact,
I.
Think
that's
true.
C
Is
it
not
that
men
act
because
men
attack
each
other,
and
you
know
that
comes
back
to
a
broader
societal
issue
that
there's
a
problem
with
male
violence
that
we
need
to
solve,
but
we're
not
going
to
solve
that
problem
of
male
violence
by
putting
women
at
greater
risk.
We
need
to
separate
that
out
as
well.
G
The
back
to
kind
of
the
bill
and
the,
although
it's
been
very
interesting
discussion,
and
thank
you
for
that.
But
the
voluntary
question
on
gender
identity
now
I
think
some
of
the
submissions
at
least
have
suggested
that
that's
not
terminology,
that's
preferred
and
they
would
rather
have
trans
status
or
trans
history
or
translated
slash
history.
G
B
Terms
of
protective
characteristics
in
terms
of
quality
acts
then
ought
to
be
a
question
on
sex
that
ought
to
be
a
question
on
gender
reassignment,
because
these
are
protected
in
law.
Gender
identity,
like
I
said,
has
not
been
defined.
It's
not
gender
reassignment,
it's
much
broader
than
that.
Even
stone
will
haven't
defined
it
they've
just
given
us
a
list
of
who
might
fall
under
it
right
that
I
think
sex
and
gender
reassignment
probably
needs
to
be
mandatory
question,
but
sex,
certainly
but
gender
assignment
as
well.
It's
a
protected
characteristic.
B
We
can't
elevate
one
protected
characteristic
to
mandatory
and
leave
one
floundering
as
a
voluntary
status.
Gender
identity
is
not
a
protected
characteristic.
We
need
to
catch
date
on
this,
but
it
can't
be
voluntary,
but
there
needs
to
be
some
form
of
definition
or,
in
the
guidance
notes.
Some
form
of
explanation
that
your
sex
is
your
biology.
Gender
reassignment
is,
if
you've
actually
gone
through,
the
steps
required
and
gender
identity
is
something
wholly
different.
Indeed,.
B
B
Gender
identity
I
think
something
much
much
broader
and
I
do
recognize
it.
There
are
plenty
of
submission
to
don't
want
to
include
gender
identity
at
all.
I
think
I've
made
it
clear
that
I
I
think
it's
an
important
one
to
include
as
long
as
there's
a
definition,
but
the
definition
isn't
your
trans
status,
because
there
are
people
who
non-binary
and
they
don't
have
a
trans
status,
but
they
would
say
that
there
didn't,
but
they
would
fall
under
this
broad
category
of
general
and.
B
It's
a
really
tough
question:
the
UN
independent
expert
on
protecting
sexual
orientation
and
gender
identity,
minorities
from
violence
and
discrimination,
which
is
a
very
long
title,
brought
out
a
report
in
July
2018,
looking
at
violence
and
discrimination
against
gender
identity
minorities
and
he
doesn't
define
gender
identity
and
I
know
him
quite
well
he's
very
good.
Since
we
haven't,
we
haven't
quite
got
there,
so
it
might
be
that
you
have
an
unexhausted
list.
It
might
be
that
you
have
a
sort
of
broad
definition.
F
Should
have
asked
me
earlier,
I,
said:
I
think
it
was
Susan
Smith
who
talked
talked
about
intersex.
They
said
that
intersex
people
were
being
courted
and
used
em
to
advance,
and
maybe
it
was
solid.
So
it's
professor
F,
Freedman
and
I'm
just
wondering
who's
using
them.
And
why
and
what
is
the
political
agenda
so
I
think
just
to
clarify.
B
There's
been
quite
a
lot
and
there's
been
quite
a
lot
of
intersex
individuals
and
experts
who
work
on
intersex
issues,
so
medical
experts
saying
that
over
the
last
few
years,
organizations
or
individuals
who
are
seeking
to
advance
the
fundamental
rights
of
trans
individuals
have
started
talking
about
that.
There
is
no
such
thing
as
two
sexes
and
then
saying
because
look
intersex
people
are
neither
male
nor
female,
and
that
is
not
true,
and
it's
also
deeply
offensive
to
people
who
are
intersex,
who
are
male
or
female.
B
B
The
purpose
is
that
there
are,
there
are
experts
and
groups
out
there
who
want
to
conflate
sex
and
gender,
because
currently,
under
the
law,
you
can
have
sex
segregated
spaces.
So
even
if
someone
has
a
gender
recognition
certificate,
so
trans
this
and
they're
not
allowed
to
access
certain
segregated
spaces.
These
organizations
have
therefore
said
if
we
can
get
rid
of
the
idea
of
sex
of
two
sexes.
B
We
can
get
rid
of
that
protected
characteristic,
essentially
in
fact
right
and
we
can
call
everything
around
gender
and
in
order
to
try
and
get
rid
of
sex,
they
can't
get
rid
of
sex
in
terms
of
the
law,
so
they've
either
used
the
words
interchangeably
in
policies.
So
we've
seen
this
in
NHS
policies
where
the
NHS
has
been
advised
to
use
word:
gender,
not
sex,
and
something
we've
got
mixed,
sexed
Ward's
because
they
are
gender,
segregated
and
cell
fighting
and
all
sorts
of
problems.
All
they've
been
trying
to
say
over
there's.
B
No
such
thing
is
just
the
two
sexes,
so
they've
co-opted,
the
intersex
community,
who
fall
into
male
or
female
I,
said
look
if
we
have
intersex
and
it
must
be
the
sex
as
a
spectrum,
and
if
sex
is
a
spectrum,
then
we
can
all
fall
anywhere
we
want
and
then
we
can
all
walk
into
any
spaces.
We
want
that's
what
I
meant
by
co-opting
we're.
A
Gonna
have
to
wrap
up.
Maybe
I
just
wanted
to
ask
you
one
specific
question
about
the
census
questions,
but
for
clarity,
and
it's
this
this
third
option
and
in
proposed
adoption
in
the
sex
question
in
addition
to
the
gender
identity,
let's
call
it
the
gender
identity
question
and
when
the
Scottish
government
or
the
National
records
of
Scotland
consulted
on
this,
certain
stakeholders
said
that,
in
addition
to
a
gender
identity
question
that
had
to
be
a
third
option
for
non-binary
people
in
the
sex
question.
A
But
when,
when
I
looked
at
stonewalls
definitions
of
trans
non-binary
is
one
of
the
comes
onto
the
trans
umbrella
as
they
call
it
so
I
take
it
that
it
would
be
acceptable
to
move
for
non-binary
people
to
identify
them
sales
in
that
other
gender
identity
question
away
from
the
sex
question.
Do
you
see
what
I'm
saying
very.
C
Clearly,
as
we've
said
all
along
the
sexes
dimorphic
and
that
no
that's
it
non-binary
stonewall
duelist
is
it
under
there
trans
umbrella
and
it
is
an
identity
issue.
It
doesn't
change
your
fundamental,
but
there
are
non-binary
women
who
get
pregnant
and
there
are
non-binary
men
who
father
their
children
and
they
still
need
the
same
screening
programs
as
we've
said,
and
there
still
needs
to
be
consideration.
You
know
if
they
commit
a
crime
which
prison
population
they're
going
to
that
is
not
going
to
change.
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
I
would
now
like
to
welcome
our
second
panel.
We
are
joined
by
Vicki
Valentine,
the
Scottish
trans
policy
officer
for
the
Scottish
transalliance
and
Tim
Hopkins
and
the
director
of
the
Equality
Network.
Thank
you
very
much
both
of
you
for
coming
to
give
evidence
today
and
also
feel
your
written
submissions
and
I.
Don't
know
if
you
were
here
for
the
first
time.
The
first
evidence
session
so
I'd
like
to
ask
something
relating
to
that
and
in
the
stakeholder
in
exercise
that
the
National
records
of
Scotland
carried
out
and
they
asked
people
about
agenda
identity.
A
Question,
although
I
know
that
the
terminology
during
that
is
changing
and
also
about
the
sex,
a
question
in
the
census
now
and
as
well
as
the
proposal
to
have
gender
identity
question,
which
is
voluntary,
and
your
group
also
wanted
a
third
option
in
the
sex
question.
And
can
you
explain
where
why
why
you
argued
that
particular
position?
Yes,.
J
Sure
so
we
already
know
from
the
guidance
from
the
last
census
that
trans
people
were
supposed
to
answer
the
sex
question
in
line
with
their
self-identified
sex.
So
for
trans
men
they
were
able
to
select
male,
regardless
of
their
biological
sex
characteristics
at
birth
and
regardless
of
what
was
on
their
birth
certificate
and
trans
women
were
able
to
select
female,
and
so
we
were
really
happy
with
that
approach
to
it
and
but
for
some
trans
people,
non-binary
people.
J
They
were
then
left
without
being
able
to
make
an
answer
to
that
question
in
the
same
way,
essentially
unable
to
answer
it
truthfully
or
in
line
with
how
they
live
and
identify,
and
so
I'm
a
non-binary
person
and
man.
If
I
were
to
receive
the
synthesis,
and
there
were
only
those
two
options.
I
would
feel
really
unsure
or
uncertain
of
kind
of.
What
exactly
was
the
right
way
to
respond.
A
At
the
end
of
the
last
session,
under
the
Stonewall
definition
of
the
trans
umbrella,
non-binary
is
part
of
that
trans
umbrella
and
the
argument
was
made
that
it's
non-binary
as
an
identification
as
opposed
to
biological
sex
and
know
that
we've
got
this
different
from
the
2011
census.
Know
that
we've
got
this
other
question
about
identification
and
the
sex
question
could
capture
identity,
about
biological
sex,
which
is
important
for
health
data
and
so
on,
and
you
would
have
the
opportunity
to
express
your
identity
for
the
non-binary
or
whatever
under
this
other
voluntary
trans
question.
So.
J
The
voluntary
question
that's
currently
proposed
isn't
designed
to
ask
you
about
your
identity.
Again,
it's
supposed
to
ask
you
about
whether
or
not
you
are
trans
or
have
a
trans
history.
So
if
you
imagine
that
all
people
living
and
identifying
as
women
would
tick
the
female
box
at
the
sex
question,
so
that
would
include
trans
women
and
all
other
non
trans
women,
and
then
there
will
be
an
additional
question
that
says:
do
you
consider
yourself
to
be
trans
or
to
have
a
trans
history
and
then
all
trans
women
with
tick?
J
J
How
do
you
live
an
identify
and
the
trans
question,
which
is
called
gender
identity
in
the
Bell
orbit,
is
actually
a
trans
status
or
a
trans
history
question
then,
goes
on
to
ask
you
if
you
are
a
trans
person,
so
you
can
still
by
using
those
two
questions
together.
Clearly,
identify
which
people
who
say
female
are
trans
women
and
which
people
who
say
female
arms.
But
it's
it
doesn't
repeat
a
question
to
ask
about
your
right
and
see
if
you
see
what
I
mean
so.
A
J
Will
capture
completely
accurate
data
for
biological
sex
characteristics
at
birth,
for
probably
just
over
99%
of
people,
because
for
almost
everybody
in
Scotland,
their
biological
sex
characteristics
at
birth
and
how
they
live
and
their
self-identified
sex
now
are
totally
the
same.
Of
course,
the
sex
question
is
massively
important
for
things
like
health
planning,
but
sex
is
only
a
proxy
for
making
decisions
about
sex
specific
services.
Don't
get
me
wrong?
J
It
is
a
completely
useful
proxy,
but,
for
example,
not
all
females
need
cervical
screening
because
they
may
have
had
hysterectomies,
and
we
can't
tell
that
just
by
knowing
that
they're
female,
that
they'll
automatically
need
cervical
screening
and
actually
for
trans
people.
Sex
is
a
much
less
useful
proxy,
whether
you
ask
about
their
biological
sex
at
birth
or
how
they're
currently
living
and
identifying
many
of
us
have
medical
transition
treatments.
J
Many
of
us
make
changes
to
our
bodies,
so
actually
just
asking
what
our
sex
characteristics
were
when
we
were
born,
doesn't
give
you
current,
up-to-date
information
about
our
health
needs.
For
example,
of
you
know,
a
much
larger
proportion
of
trans
men
will
have
hysterectomies
as
part
of
gender
reassignment
treatment.
So,
actually
to
count
them
and
insists
that
they
label
themselves
as
female
or
in
order
to
count
them
for
cervical
screening
is
not
actually
going
to
be
useful,
because
so
many
of
them
will
not
have
the
body.
K
I,
first
of
all,
say
thank
you
very
much
to
committee
members
for
I
need
to
come
along
at
the
last
minute
to
replace
my
colleague,
Hanna.
Unfortunately,
her
father
was
taken
seriously
ill
last
night,
so
she
wasn't
able
to
come.
But
I'll
do
my
best
to
answer
the
questions.
Rick's
already
explained
that
the
data
you
would
get
from
a
question
that
insisted
that
people
responded
according
to
the
sex.
K
So
this
has
been
going
on
now
for
two
decades.
You
don't
get
data,
that's
significantly
more
useful
for
health
planning.
If
you
do
ask
about
biological
sex
than
if
you
do
what
we
did
last
time
and
the
time
before,
there's
another
issue
as
well,
the
committee
has
heard
that
biological
sex
is
was
protected
by
the
law.
K
One
of
the
previous
witnesses
referred
to
a
case
four
decades
ago
about
a
trans
woman
called
April
Ashley,
but
the
law
has
changed
a
lot
since
then,
the
European
Court
of
Human
Rights
ruled
in
cases
called
Goodwin
and
I
versus
the
UK
back
in
2002,
but
it's
a
human
right
to
have
your
gender
identity
as
a
trans
person
recognized,
and
you
have
the
right
to
change
your
legal
sex
to
match
your
gender
identity
and
that's
what
the
gender
recognition
Act
does.
As
a
result
of
that
case,
it
was
brought
in
in
the
UK.
K
The
UK
was
one
of
the
last
countries
in
Europe
to
do
that
and
came
in
in
2005
since
then.
Of
course,
anybody
who's
applied
for
an
gotta
gender
recognition
certificate.
Their
legal
sex
is
different
from
their
biological
sex
from
the
sex
that
they
were
assumed
to
be
when
they
were
born
and
it's
their
legal
sex
that
protected
under
the
Equality
Act.
K
Biological
sex
characteristics
are
certainly
important
for
health
care.
If
you
have
a
cervix,
then
you
may
need
cervical
screening,
but,
as
big
has
already
said,
forcing
trans
men
to
call
themselves
men
in
the
census
under
a
biological
sex
question
would
not
help
you
with
your
health
services
planning,
because
many
trans
men
have
had
hysterectomy.
So
they
do
not
have
a
cervix.
K
A
Depending
on
your
organization's
could
have
you
generally
of
of
say
excessive
protective
characteristics,
because
I
know
that
in
them,
when
you
meet
a
submission
and
I
think
of
squashy
transalliance.
Actually,
when
you
made
a
submission
to
the
2015
select
committee
in
Westminster,
the
women
inequalities
committee,
that
was
looking
all
these
issues
and
your
submission
argued
that
M
sex
should
no
longer
be.
J
It's
not
our
position
at
all
that
there
that
that's
the
case,
and
there
are
specific
exemptions
in
the
Equality
Act
that
allow
you,
for
example,
in
a
segregated
space
or
in
a
sex
exempt
job.
The
presumption
is
that
a
trans
person
for
those
spaces
and
jobs
will
be
treated
in
the
gender
they
live
and
and
fires.
Unless
these
specific
exemptions
are
invoked.
So,
for
example,
women
only
services
with
female
sex,
only
services
are
presumed
to
be
inclusive
of
trans
women
and
less
specific
exceptions
are
used.
J
We
don't
think
that
it
should
be
necessary
to
exclude
trans
people
exclusively
on
the
basis
that
they
are
a
trans
person,
and
we
think
that
if
you
take
a
person-centered
approach
to
service
delivery-
and
you
think
that
an
individual
is
genuinely
unsuitable
for
your
service
that
there
we
don't
see
why
there
would
be
an
instance
where,
just
because
a
person
is
trans,
that
would
be
the
thing
that
made
them
not
suitable.
We
absolutely
support
the
maintenance
of
women-only
spaces
and
roles
that
are
just
for
women
when
those
are
important
absolutely
but.
A
I
think
what
you're
seeing
is
that
these
six
exempt
jobs,
for
example,
support
workers
for
someone
who
was
disabled,
delivering
intimate
services.
I
think
it's
to
saw
that
people
have
a
choice
to
say
that
they
don't
want
a
person
with
a
male
body
performing
these
intimate
services.
But
my
understanding
was:
you
argued
against
that
in
2050.
A
J
Think
that
anyone
should
have
the
right
to
refuse
any
individual
when
it
comes
to
something
like
intimate
health
care.
If
they
don't
feel
like
that,
person
would
be
able
to
do
that
in
a
way
that
felt
respectful
and
useful
for
them,
and
we
don't.
We
would
see
no
purpose
in
forcing
somebody
to
be
provided
care
by
someone
that
they
didn't
feel
comfortable
with.
J
I
said
I
suppose
the
position
was
more
specifically
that
we
didn't
think
that
trans
people
should
not
be
included
in
line
with
their
identity
in
absolutely
all
circumstances,
and
we
thought
that
there
were
clearly
cases
where
trans
people
would
be
appropriate
people
in
order
to
take
these
sorts
of
positions
in
line
with
our
identity.
So
it
wasn't
more
about
it
not
being
invoked
in
a
blanket
way.
I
suppose.
A
D
You
convener
and
the
proposal
in
front
of
us
for
the
census
amendment
suggest
that
we
put
questions
on
sexual
orientation
and
gender
identity
enter
a
voluntary
category
along
with
religion.
So
I
did
hear
from
a
semester
supportive
of
that
proposal.
You
want
to
just
say
a
bit
about
why
you
think
it's
important.
They
go
into
the
volunteer
part
of
the
census.
K
Yeah,
obviously,
we're
still
some
way
from
complete
equality
for
lesbian,
gay
and
bisexual
people,
and
rather
further
away
from
complete
equality
for
trans
people
and
I.
Think
for
that
reason
to
force
somebody
on
pain
of
a
thousand-pound
fine,
to
specify
to
the
government
what
their
sexual
orientation
is,
for
example,
would
not
be
appropriate
at
the
current
time.
So
that's
why
we
think
the
question
should
be
voluntary.
D
K
Definitely
the
Scottish
government
have
been
asking
a
sexual
orientation
question
in
their
national
surveys
now
since
2011
and
they
published
data
in
2017,
based
on
the
2016
surveys.
They're
about
twenty.
Twenty-One
thousand
people,
I
think
were
asked
questions
in
2016
and
those
surveys,
and
you
get
some
useful
later
out.
You
get
some
information
about
how
many
lesbian,
gay,
bisexual
or
other
sexual
orientation
people
there
are,
and
they
got
to
statistically
significant
facts
from
that
sample
of
21,000
people.
One
was
that
there's
been
gay,
bisexual
and
other
sexual
orientation.
K
People
have
rather
worse
health
than
the
general
population,
and
the
other
I
think
was
to
do
with
people.
Who've
been
more
likely
to
live
in
areas
that
are
that
are
deprived
areas,
but
the
amount
of
information
you
can
get
out
that
is
statistically
significant
is
not
much
out
of
a
sample
of
21,000
people.
The
big
advantage
of
asking
the
questions
in
the
census
is
that
you
have
a
sample
of
four
million
or
so
adults,
and
you
get
much
much
more
useful
information
so
yeah.
K
We
know
that
there
will
be
some
underreporting,
but,
for
example,
you
can
still
tell
the
difference
between
how
many
there's
been
going,
bisexual
people
that
are
living
in
Glasgow
compared
to
the
number
who
are
living
in
Inverness,
and
that
kind
of
thing
is
important
for
the
provision,
the
planning
of
services.
We
know
that
people
move
around
the
country.
So,
even
though
there
is
a
level
of
under
equality,
you
still
get
really
important
data
and
you
can
still
tell
for
the
people
who
did
report
themselves
as,
for
example,
the
lesbian
or
gay.
D
The
bill
describes
that
as
gender
identity
and
the
submission
from
yourself
suggested
that
should
be
called
trans,
a
trans
status
question
rather
than
a
gendered
identity,
I'm
a
parent
from
the
previous
panel,
their
concerns
about
like
a
definition
around
gender
identity.
Obviously,
if
they
take
the
Bella
as
it's
presented
to
us,
that
would
then
be
on
the
face
of
the
bill
as
a
description,
and
you
want
to
say
a
bit
more
about
why
or
what
you
feel
about
the
use
of
gender
identity
and
do
you
think
it
should
be
changed
so.
J
What
the
wording
of
the
question
would
be,
then
it
could
be
worth
thinking
about
changing
that,
but
I
also
think
that
gender
identity
is
sort
of
broadly
used
to
refer
to
the
strand
of
a
quality
work
that
focuses
on
transgender
people.
So
I
believe
that
that's
why
that
was
the
decision
to
use
this,
because
there's
nothing
to
say
that
as
data
needs
change,
the
sorts
of
questions
that
NRS
might
want
to
ask
trans
people
within
a
census.
J
Might
change
and
then
they
won't
have
to
revisit
the
Parliament
every
time
in
order
to
be
able
to
then
request
that
those
questions
of
voluntary,
so
it
was
my
understanding
that
it
was
to
sort
of
say
there
will
be
a
question
that
pertains
to
transgender
equality.
We
will
call
this
question
gender
identity,
but
the
actual
question
we
will
ask
in
the
2021
status
is
a
trans
status,
trans
history,
question.
K
Gender
identity
is
a
very
widely
used
term,
for
example
by
the
United
Nations.
They
talk
about
sexual
orientation
and
gender
identity
when
they're
talking
about
discrimination
against
there's
been
going
bisexual
and
against
transgender
people.
So
we
think
gender
identity
is
okay
as
the
headline
term
for
this,
and
just
as
with
other
subjects
in
the
census,
the
detailed
questions
are
considered
later
and
there'll
be
statutory
instruments
around
those.
So
we
be
comfortable
with
the
bill.
K
D
So
just
the
question,
the
submissions
and
from
yourself
did
often
describe
the
trans
population,
as
is
so
small,
and
it's
a
and
also
a
relatively
small
number
of
non-binary
people
can
argue
in
that.
If
people
were
able
to
up
this
flexibility
either
in
the
state's
question,
if
we
were
to
go
down
and
on
by
usually
that
the
figures
are
so
small,
it
wouldn't
really
impact
much
on
data.
D
D
Do
you
think
that
would
be
tracked,
but
it's
it's
just
a
question
whether
it
you
know
you
describe
it
soft,
it's
emphasized,
it's
a
small
amount.
It's
such
a
small
and
the
general
discussion
seems
to
be
that
it's
this
increasing
amount.
There's
younger
generation
I
have
a
different
view
of.
Do
you
have
I,
don't
have
any
views
on
that
is
that
do
you
still
maintain
there's
a
small
population
and
it
wouldn't
affect
any
of
the
data
to
next
day,
because.
J
The
0.6
percent
estimate
that
we
use
comes
from
a
Williams
Institute
paper
that
drew
together
a
large
number
of
state-level
surveys
done
across
the
US
and
kind
of
pooled.
All
of
the
figures
that
they
found
to
come
out
with
this
average
across
the
u.s.
that
would
be
0.6%
and
that
was
done
and
published
relatively
recently
and
I.
Don't
think
that
there
has
been
such
an
enormous
shift
that
we
would
anticipate
seeing
a
figure
much
bigger
than.
J
E
I
just
wanted
to
go
back
to
Hopkins
to
a
point
you
made
to
the
community.
Ron
and
I
may
have
just
missed
this
altogether,
but
I
think
you
said
about
the
law
and
the
definition
law
that
I
think
you
if
I
may
say
so
you
contradicted
the
earlier
panel
about
the
definition.
Could
you
just
say:
I
missed
that?
Could
you
explain
that
again?
Please.
K
Yes,
the
equality
and
Human
Rights
Commission
are
very
clear
that
when
the
Equality
Act
talks
about
sex,
it's
primarily
talking
about
your
legal
sex
and
your
legal
sex
is
not
the
same
as
your
biological
sex.
When
you
were
born
because
people
can
change
their
legal
sex
using
the
gender
recognition.
Act
there's
another
important
point
as
well,
and
that
is
when
we're
talking
about
discrimination
against
people,
which
is
what
the
Equality
Act
is
about.
Every
protected
characteristic
you're
protected,
not
just
if
you
have
that
protective
characteristic,
but
also
if
people
think
you
have
that
protected
characteristics.
K
E
K
Mean
that
that's
a
good
question,
because
the
data
from
the
censuses
used
for
different
purposes-
and
one
of
the
purposes
is
used
for,
for
example,
is
a
baseline
for
data
data
that
is
collected
by
other
bodies
and,
generally
speaking,
other
bodies
when
they
collect
sex
data,
do
collect
lived
sex.
They
don't
ask
personal
details
about
your
genitals
or
biological
sex
data
is
also
useful
for
measuring
the
amounts
of
discrimination
and
I
would
say
the
discrimination
you
face.
K
You
face
according
to
the,
how
you
live
your
life
and
how
you
present
and
how
your
your
believed
to
be.
So,
if
you're,
a
trans
woman
who
lives
as
a
woman
and
presents
as
a
woman,
you
will
be
treated
as
a
woman.
You
will
face
discrimination
as
a
woman,
if
you're
a
trans
man
who
lives
and
presents
as
a
man,
you
will
not
face
misogynistic
discrimination
because
you're
treated
as
a
man,
so
in
terms
of
measuring
the
impact
of
discrimination,
it's
actually
lived.
K
Gender
we've
self-identified
sex,
the
sex
that
you
live
has,
which
is
the
important
thing
earlier.
This
year,
this
parliament
passed
the
gender
representation
on
public
boards
act
and
that
act
requires,
as
you
know,
public
bodies
to
push
their
boards
up
to
50
percent,
at
least
women,
and
that
definition
in
defines
women
as
including
trans
women
who
are
living
as
women.
So
it
would
be
rather
strange,
I
think
in
terms
of
getting
baseline
data
if
the
census
asked
for
something
different
than
that,
because
that
is
what
we're
aiming
for.
K
We
are
aiming
for
our
public
boards
to
have
at
least
50%
women,
and
the
Parliament
has
already
decided
that
should
includes
all
women
who
are
identifying
as
and
living
as
women,
including
trans
women,
and
we
believe
that
the
census
should
ask
her
the
same
thing
if
I
could
make
one
other
point
on
that
answer.
Our
colleague,
James
Morton,
who
is
manager
of
the
scholars,
translates,
is
a
man.
Some
of
you
here
have
met
him.
He
looks
like
a
man.
He
acts
like
a
man.
He
is
I,
think
everybody
who's
met.
K
Him
would
think
it
would
be
quite
ridiculous
if
he
had
to
fill
in
the
census
form
saying
that
his
sex
is
a
woman,
but
that
is
what
he
would
be
forced
to
do.
If
you
have
a
question
asking
about
biological
sex
at
birth,
I
think
will
be
very
retrograde.
It
hasn't
happened
for
the
last
20
years,
James
filled
in
his
sexes,
mail
when
he
completed
the
census
in
2011
I,
don't
think
he
should
be
forced
to
effectively
lie
and
say
that
his
sex
is
female.
On
this
sensor.
That's.
K
G
Good
morning,
gentlemen,
thank
you
coming
in
yeah
I
mean
a
number
of
issues,
important
issues
raised.
Are
you
saying
I'm
just
picking
up
the
last
point
that
you're?
What
you're
saying
is
then
that
the
status
quo
should
prevail
in
that
the,
although
it
is
I,
mean
to
make
the
point
that
the
bill
actually
is
not
about
the
emancipation.
G
The
bill
is
about
the
volunteer
part,
but
obviously
the
discussion
has
gone
wider,
and
but
it's
your
position
that
the
the
mandatory
question
should
remain
the
same,
so
there
should
be
male
female
and
the
guidance
indicating
the
issue
of
self-identification.
Is
that
your
position
in
light
of
what
you've
just
said?
Oh,
not.
J
It
almost,
but
we
want
there
to
be
the
third
option
added
to
allow
non-binary
people
to
also
answer
in
line
with
their
self-identified
sex.
So
we're
very
happy
for
the
sex
question
to
remain
compulsory.
It's
massively
important
for
all
kinds
of
planning
and
measuring
in
equality
were
very,
very
happy
for
it
to
be
compulsory,
but
I
want
to
be
able
to
answer
that
sex
question
in
line
with
Who
I
am
how
I
live
and
how
I,
identify
and
I
want
to
be.
G
J
I
think
that
there's
the
option
that
we
support,
which
is
that
there
should
be
the
mandatory
sex
question,
with
three
options
that
trans
people
can
answer
in
line
with
their
self-identified
sex.
So
it
wouldn't
be
a
sex
at
birth
question
and
then
there
would
be
a
gender
identity
question
that
was
actually
a
trans
status
and
history
question
that
asked.
Do
you
consider
yourself
to
be
trans
or
have
a
trans
history?
That
would
capture
that?
J
There
are
non-binary
and
you
can
figure
out
what
proportion
of
and
but
if
you
were,
to
introduce
mandatory
sex
at
birth
question,
male
female
and
then
also
a
second
question
that
asked
what
is
your
self-identified
gender
or
what
is
just
off
identified
sex
on
that
then
said
male
female
non-binary,
although
you
would
have
a
similar
output
in
terms
of
yes,
she
would
be
able
to
identify
which
people
there
was
a
change
between.
In
that
second
option,
you
do
you
force
people
to
reveal
quite
private
and
personal
information
about
their
biology.
J
There
isn't
necessarily
relevant,
as
we've
already
discussed
around
things
like
health
planning
and
I.
Think
the
principle
of
trans
equality
in
the
movement
towards
trans
equality
and
politics
has
been
say
that
how
you
live
and
identify
should
be
respected
and
is
more
important
and
reducing
you
simply
to
your
biological
characteristics.
About.
G
I,
don't
think
anybody's
trying
to
reduce
anybody
to
anything
I
think
we're
just
trying
to
work
our
way
through
this,
and
you
know
we
have
heard
very
strong
evidence
this
morning
that
sex
is
a
biological
condition.
It's
a
biological
fact
as
of
sex
at
birth.
Okay-
and
you
know
how
people
choose
to
live,
their
life
is
absolutely
a
matter
for
them
and
they
should
be
free
to
do
so,
but
the
you
know
the
immutable
fact
is
in
terms
of
the
evidence.
G
Other
self
identifications
in
order
to
get
the
correct
data
seems
to
me
to
be
have
some
rationale
to
in
regards
to
the
gender
identity
issue
in
terms
of
definition.
So
it
seems
from
what
Vic
is
saying
that
this
has
been
preordained
by
NRS
to
be
just
to
do
with
trans
identification.
I
mean
it's
this
Parliament.
Ultimately,
that
you
know,
is
looking
at
the
bill
and
will
have
a
view
on
on
different
terminology
used,
but
it
may
be,
therefore,
that
we
would
exclude
other
people.
So
how
do
you
deal
with
that
in
the
Jemez
identity?
G
Voluntary
boots?
You
know
if
you
just
if
you
views
that
this
actually
is
interchangeable
with
a
trans
status.
If
you
like,
what
about
other
people
who
are
not
in
that
position
and
that
self
identify
in
some
other
capacity,
what
what
about
them
should
the
gender
identity,
therefore
not
be
a
wider
definitional
approach,
involve
a
wider
definition
approach.
A
J
G
K
K
What
I
meant
so
it
saw.
The
purpose
of
the
voluntary
question
is
to
capture
people
who
are
affected
by
the
protected
characteristic
for
gender
reassignment,
so
that
all
if
your
protected
characteristics
are
covered
now,
we
think
we've
done
quite
a
lot
of
work
with
asking
trans
people.
They
are
the
people
who
have
the
protected
characteristic
of
gender
reassignment,
including
non-binary
people.
We've
done
quite
a
lot
of
work.
K
We
think
it's
easier
to
understand
than
saying:
do
you
have
the
protected
characteristic
of
gender
reassignment,
which
is
quite
legalistic,
so
we're
not
totally
wedded
to
the
wording
that
NRS
proposed
at
the
moment,
but
it
is
all
about
capturing
those
people,
trans
people,
how
many
trans
people
are
there?
Those
are
the
people
who
are
affected
by
the
protected
characteristic
of
gender
reassignment,
just
as
you
do
for
the
other
protected
characteristics.
So
coming
back
to
the
sex
question
for
a
moment,
the
crucial
question
here
is:
should
that
be
about
biological
sex?
K
Should
it
ask
about
legal
sex,
or
should
it
asked
about
that
ask
about
the
sex
that
you
live
as
we
are
absolutely
clear
in
our
view
that
asking
about
the
sex
that
you
live
as
well,
first
of
all
be
consistent
with
the
previous
censuses.
Secondly,
give
you
the
most
use
of
an
information
for
the
reasons
that
we've
already
discussed
and
to
not
do
it
would
also
be
an
invasion
of
privacy.
K
The
European
Court
of
Human
Rights
has
been
very
clear
that
the
reason
trans
people
are
endowed
or
have
they
have
the
ability
to
change
their
legal
gender
is
to
protect
their
privacy
and
asking
people
about
their
biological
sex
characteristics
when
they
were
born
is
a
breach
of
their
privacy.
So,
at
the
very
least,
the
question
should
ask
about
legal
sex
and
not
about
biological
sake,
so
that
it
protects
people's
privacy
in
the
way
that
the
European
Court
has
been
very
clear.
K
A
K
They
talk
to
other
people;
they
in
some
sense
present
themselves
either
as
men
or
women.
They
expect
that
the
other,
when
I
speak
to
another
person,
I
expect
that
they
will
assume
that
I
am
a
man
and
I
don't
contradict
that.
I
use
he
pronouns
about
myself
and
I'm
comfortable
for
other
people
to
call
me
he
him.
K
It
doesn't
have
to
be,
of
course,
because
many
people
wear
all
sorts
of
clothes
and
you
know
gone-
are
the
days,
thank
goodness
when
women
thought
strange
that
they're
going
for
a
pair
of
trousers.
So
the
fact
that
you
wear
a
pair
of
trousers
doesn't
stop
you
being
a
woman
and
it
doesn't
stop
a
trans
woman.
K
It's
about
your
self
identity
and
the
way
you
express
that
self-identity
to
other
people.
Well,
I
am
a
man
I've,
always
known
that
I
was
male.
I
believed
I
was
a
boy
when
I
grew
up
and
when
I
interact
with
other
people,
I'm
happy
to
discuss
the
fact
that
I
mean
that
if
I've
assumed
that
most
people
will
assume
that
I'm,
a
man
when
they
talk
to
me
and
if
subjects
come
up
as
I
say,
people
will
use
he
pronouns
for
me.
I
don't
find
that
a
problem.
J
H
K
Very
important
to
say
that
we
don't
represent
the
intersex
community.
In
fact,
we
don't
claim
to
represent
anybody.
We
just
speak
up
for
people's
equality.
Our
intersex
project
is
a
very
early
stage
and
we're
in
the
process
of
speaking
with
intersex
people
in
Scotland
and
in
the
rest
of
the
UK
to
identify
what
people's
needs
are
and
that's
in
advance
of
the
Scottish
Government
consulting
about
intersex
equality,
which
they'll
be
doing
next
year.
We
work
very
closely
with
an
organization
called
intersex
UK,
which
is
one
of
the
UK
intersex
organisations.
K
So
we
are
supporting
intersex
UK
in
those
calls.
Now
they
are
not
calling
at
the
moment
for
the
census
to
include
a
question
about
intersex
status
or
what
your
sex
characteristics
are.
They
are
calling
for
the
Equality
Act
to
be
amended
so
that
people
are
protected
from
discrimination
because
they
are
intersex
because
they
have
what's
called
variations
of
sex
characteristics.
That
is,
their
body,
is
either
in
their
chromosomes
or
their
gonads,
all
their
genitals.
All
their
hormones
do
not
match
what
is
considered
as
to
be
typical
for
male
or
female.
K
So
we
would
like
to
see
the
Equality
Act
amended
to
protect
from
discrimination
on
that
grounds,
but
at
the
moment
that
is
not
a
protected
characteristic.
Another
moment
people
are
not
calling
for
that
to
be
added
in
added
into
the
census.
As
a
separate
question
there,
the
question
would
arise
if
you
asked
about
biological
sex
rather
than
as
has
happened
for
the
past
20
years,
self-identified
sex,
then
I
think
you
would
need
to
consult
with
intersex
people
about
exactly
how
they
would
want
that
handled.
K
A
F
K
As
far
as
biological
sex
characteristics
are
concerned,
that
is
hormones,
genitals,
etc.
Those
are
obviously,
as
some
of
those
are
obviously
not
unchangeable,
because
some
trans
people
have
certain
surgery
to
change
some
of
their
sex
characteristics
in
terms
of
chromosomes.
You
can't
change
your
chromosomes,
but
it's
not
as
simple
as
people
are
either
XX
or
XY.
There
are
people
with
X
X
Y
chromosomes.
There
are
people
whose
bodies
have
more
than
one
chromosome
in
them.
So
so
things
are
not
black-and-white.
F
One
of
the
things
you
mentioned
earlier
was
am
a
bit
privacy.
You
talk
about
privacy
and
but
surely
can
three
questions
that
you're
looking
for
with
make
privacy
less
likely,
because
the
more,
if
you
have
a
situation
where
by
M
you
and
asked
what
was
your
sex
about,
for
example,
male
or
female,
and
then
you
have
a
a
queer,
a
voluntary
question
about
whether
it's
gender
or
well.
It's
call
it
trans
identity.
K
If
the
sex
question
is
going
to
be
compulsory,
then
if
it
asks
about
sex
at
birth,
that
is
going
to
be
an
invasion
of
privacy,
because
people
who
are
living
as
men
or
women,
trans
men
or
women
will
have
to
answer
that
question
with
the
opposite
of
the
way
they
live,
so
trans
woman
will
have
to
put
mail,
and
that
is
an
invasion
of
her
privacy.
If
the
question
asks
about
your
self-identified
sex,
then
a
trans
woman
woman
will
be
able
to
put
woman,
and
our
privacy
is
protected.
K
From
that
point
of
view,
the
other
the
the
question
about
gender
identity,
we
think,
should
be
voluntary,
but
there
is
an
overall
issue
about
how
you
protect
people's
privacy
and
answering
even
the
voluntary
questions,
and
that
goes
to
something
else.
It
goes
to
the
arrangements
for
doing
the
census
and
the
arrangements
that
need
to
be
put
in
place
so
that
individuals
who
share
a
household
can
fill
in
the
individual
form
in
a
way
that
is
private
and
NRS.
K
F
Thank
you
very
is
an
important
point.
There,
it's
one
person
per
household
that
fills
in
the
form
and
then
sometimes
that
can
cause
obviously
issues
and
concerns
and
sin
and
in
certain
households
where
people
may
not
be
open
necessarily
to
having
a
member
of
whatever
different
identity
and
I'm,
not
really
a
self
thankful
that
if
you
get
the
three
categories
that
makes
privacy
more
difficult,
so
I'll
have
to
disagree
in
that
one
of
the
things
the
other
team
I
think
came
out
and
from
the
previous
session
had
two
cokes.
F
That
we
bet
was
those
clearly
among
some
women's
groups
about
people
being
able
to
self-identify
in
the
potential
threat
to
females,
which
was
expressed
by
a
previous
panel
of
this
M
and
I.
Think
the
reason
for
that
possibly
is
the
rapid
growth
and
the
trans
community
in
the
last
decade
up
to
mean
the
number
of
people
and
who
are
trans,
isn't
it
is
drawn
what
think
seven
hundred
percent
I
had
a
sort
of
figure
I've
done
if
that's
a
key
or
not
over
the
last
five
years.
So
how
do
you
feel
about?
K
My
quick
answer
that
would
be
that
I
would
strongly
urge
the
committee,
if
you
have
concerns
in
that
area,
to
speak
to
the
organisations
in
Scotland
that
are
providing
women
only
services
to
the
most
vulnerable
women
in
Scotland.
So
organisations
like
rape,
crisis,
Scotland,
Scottish,
women's
aid,
the
boil
these
organisations
now
provide
services
that
are
trans
inclusive,
so
they
provide
their
services
to
trans
women.
F
Key
an
equation:
ask
the
foss,
pals
I,
think
it's
fair
to
ask
of
yourselves,
as
is
the
court
actually
in
the
quality
network
and
Scotch
transfer
line
submission,
but
it
says
a
non-binary
person
as
a
person
identifying
is
either
having
agenda
which
is
in
between
or
beyond
the
two
categories.
Modern
women
are
splotching
between
men
and
women
are
having
no
gender
either
permanently
or
some
of
the
time
now.
I
can
understand
people
who
ever
try
and
say
the
entity
I'm
struggling
with
us.
They
in
some
of
the
team
I
mean
you
know,
I'm,
really.
F
J
So,
even
if
somebody
has
a
fluctuating
gender
identity
or
a
sense
of
themselves
that
shifts,
we
would
categorize
that
person
as
being
sort
of
permanently
non-binary,
because
having
a
gender
identity
that
shifts
would
make
you
the
sort
of
person
who
wouldn't
use
the
word
man
or
woman
all
of
the
time
to
describe
themselves.
Does
that
make
sense.
It.
F
Doesn't
we
use
seeing,
therefore,
that
identity
as
a
kind
of
psychological
thing,
rather
than
something
that's
a
bit
more
physical,
because
they're
the
whole?
The
key
point
that
was
made
by
the
previous
panel
was
a
very
office
of
biology
and
Dian
time
or
frozen,
which
we
talked
about,
but
it
see
you're.
Seeing
therefore
that
for
these
people,
that
identity
is
psychological,
I
think.
J
G
Points
I'm
I'm,
going
back
to
an
issue
that
was
raised
by
the
convener
I
think
at
the
beginning,
in
picking
up
on
this
discussion-
and
you
know
the
issue
of
the
example
of
our
vulnerable
women
that
wants
to
have
intimate
care
provided
by
women.
So
we've
had
that
discussion.
You
say
that
you
don't
want
a
blanket
exemption,
but
there
could
be
in
your
view,
you
would
kind
in
some
exemptions
if
we
go
down
the
route
that
biological
sex
is
no
longer
to
be
taken
into
account
in
that
regard.
But
self-identification
is
so
with
that.
G
G
It's
quite
clear
that
that
intimate
care
will
be
provided
by
a
woman
who
was
born
as
women,
not
who
me
from
time
to
time
psychological
identify
as
a
woman,
but
actually
a
woman
who
was
born
a
woman
and
if
then
the
exemption
approach
is
taken
and
it's
not
to
be
a
blanket
exemption.
It
begs
the
question,
then
you
know
the
owners
saying
is
on
you
or
your
family
to
prove
that.
Actually
you
fall
within
that
exemption.
I,
don't
know
if
that's
really
where
people
want
to
end
up
in
this
important
debate.
Yeah.
J
J
J
G
Would
make
all
these
decisions
on
sort
of
moving
basis?
You
know
of
care
who
would
make
all
these
decisions?
How
would
all
this
happen?
And
that's
right?
You
know
the
the
the
the
you
know
as
because
lawyer
to
trade,
you
know
the
the
fundamental
approach.
The
definitions
is
a
very
important
thing,
because
it
makes
things
clear.
You
know,
because
you
have
to
then
take
into
a
whole
series
of
four
ifs
and
what,
if
some,
what
ifs
and
that's?
Why
a
legal
approach?
G
The
definitions,
it's
quite
important,
because
it
tries
to
anticipate
that
there
will
be
so
many
different
circumstances
pertaining
to
issues
that
have
are
impacted
by
definitions
of
whatever
it
is
and
I
just
see.
You
know
fundamental
problems
down
the
line.
I
see
the
the
mandatory
question
remaining
binary
question
the
voluntary
question,
including
at
gender
identity.
If
people
wish
to
on
a
volunteer
basis,
provide
that
information,
I
hope
they
do,
because
the
purpose
is
to
collect
the
data.
K
K
I
mentioned
earlier:
biological
sex,
legal
sex,
all
the
sex
that
you
live
as
that's
the
fundamental
question:
if
the
answer
is
the
third
of
those
and
bearing
in
mind
that's
what's
been
done
for
the
last
twenty
years,
then
we
would
argue
there
has
to
be
a
third
option,
but
the
only
reason
for
putting
the
third
option
in
it's
not
to
count
trans
people,
it's
to
give
non-binary
people
an
option
that
they
can
truly
answer,
so
they
don't
have
to
be
dishonest
by
ticking
either
the
male
or
the
female
box.
That's
why
that's?
K
G
L
Thank
you.
Thank
you,
not
justice,
to
follow
up
on
there
the
question
from
there
Kenneth
captain
it
was
on
the
initial
Orphic
and
the
e
Kevin
time.
The
census
is
about
helping
to
plan
services
for
the
future.
But
if
someone
were
to
at
that
particular
time,
they
felt
as
if
the
way
out
or
a
woman
but
later
on
their
engines
are
mined.
So
I'm
sad
about
the
time
of
the
senses
being
completed,
information
was
I.
L
Could
it
but
I'm
trying
to
understand
that
in
terms
of
who
to
who
hope
that
would
then
play
out
in
terms
of
the
service
planning
at
any
government
and
any
at
any
public
body
then
have
to
attend
to
do
building
a
mind,
then,
for
me,
she
couldn't
give
in
some
some
period
of
time.
Shortly
afterwards
they
become
inaccurate.
J
It's
just
to
go
back
again
to
the
idea
that,
in
in
totality,
the
sex
data
is
incredibly
useful
for
planning
sex
specific
services,
but
for
each
specific,
individual
census
response.
You
don't
necessarily
absolutely
know
from
someone's
response
to
the
sex
question,
even
if
they
are
not
a
trans
person,
and
so
you
know
it's
got
nothing
to
do
with
their
gender
or
being
a
trans
person.
J
You
do
not
absolutely
know
with
full
clarity
what
their
sex
specific
health
care
needs
are
just
from
what
they've
answered
to
that
question,
and
so,
although
it's
not
impossible
that
some
people
who
have
a
shifting
sense
of
how
they
would
describe
their
sex
would
answer
one
way
and
actually,
if
you
ask
them
to
complete
the
census
three
weeks
later,
they
would
describe
it
another
way
in
terms
of
the
broad
overall
use
of
the
sex
data.
It's
that
wouldn't
we
can't
foresee
that
that
would
have
an
impact.
I,
don't
think.
K
K
A
Just
a
couple
of
supplementary
is
to
wrap
up
and
one
relating
to
Kenneth
Gibson's
question
about
sure.
Fluid
fluid
identities
and
you'll
be
aware
of
the
the
story
of
the
Credit
Suisse
director
M
Phillip
bonds
and
Pippa
buns
M,
who
spends
half
of
the
week
as
Pippa
bonds,
who
identifies
as
a
woman
and
the
other
half
of
the
week,
he's
Phillip
buns
identifying
as
a
man
in
terms
of
the
question,
how
would
you
expect
Phillip
or
Pippa
to
answer
the
six
question
and
any
particular
D
I.
J
Think
that's
I.
Don't
know
that
I
would
be
able
to
answer
that
question
and
we
you
in
terms
of
how
we
would
probably
think
of
that
person's
identity.
We
would
probably
describe
them
as
a
non-binary
person
and
we
would
probably
therefore
say
that
they
would
answer
the
third
other
option
on
the
self-identified
sex
question.
Bhavish
I
couldn't.
A
And
actually
one
of
the
women's
award
actually
understand
it
in
their
sentence
on
financial
awards
in
the
city
when
a
woman's
award,
so
would
you
be?
Would
it
be
acceptable
for
pepper
or
or
Phillip
to
identify
as
the
sex
or
gender
that
they
identify
with
on
that
particular
day?
Just
happens
people
when
he
was
filling
out
or
she
was
filling
out.
The
census
I.
J
A
And
the
only
thing
I
wanted
to
wrap
up
if
you'll
bear
with
me
is
I've:
no
phones,
your
submission
to
the
women
in
equality,
Select,
Committee,
transgender
inquiry
and
and
in
your
submission.
This
is
this
Scottish
transgender
Alliance
you
see
and
that
you
want
the
Equality
Act
2010
should
be
amended
to
remove
the
genuine
occupational
requirement,
allowing
some
jobs
to
require
applicants
that
must
be
cisgender.
A
That's
not
trans
and
replace
it
with
a
genuine
occupational
requirement,
allowing
posts,
delivering
trans
specific
services
to
exclude
such
gender
people
so
basically,
and
what
you're
arguing
there
is
that
there
should
be
a
genuine,
genuine
occupational
requirement
for
transfer
versus,
but
not
for
services
to
women.
That's
what
it
says.
J
You
know
what
they
were
two
different
well,
they
were
more
than
two,
but
there
are
sex,
genuine
occupational
requirements
and
there's
also
in
the
case
for
trans
people
and
the
occupational
requirement
is
reversed.
So,
for
example,
you
can
have
a
job
that
requires
that
that
can
be
a
woman.
You
can
also,
however,
have
a
job
that
requires
that
an
apple
can
not
be
a
transsexual,
that's
the
language
that
the
law
would
use.
So
we
were
saying
that
the
latter
of
those
two
requirements.
A
K
Two
separate
issues
here,
there's,
first
of
all,
what
is
the
meaning
of
sex
in
the
Equality
law?
My
understanding
is
the
equality
and
human
rights
commission
are
very
clear
about
that.
They
talk
about
legal
sex,
not
biological
sex.
The
second
is
about
these
exemptions
and
is
a
single
sex
service
for
women,
for
example,
allowed
to
turn
away
a
trans
woman
without
that
being
gender
reassignment
discrimination,
whether
or
not
that
woman
has
a
gender
recognition
certificate
and
the
answer
is
yes,
because
that's
what
the
law
says.
K
So
what
the
HRC
is
saying
there
is
that
a
single
sex
service
can
turn
away
a
trans
woman,
even
if
she
has
a
gender
reassignment,
a
gender
recognition
certificate
and
therefore
is
legally
a
woman.
They
can
turn
her
away
because
she's
trans,
but
of
the
exemption
without
being
taken
to
court
for
gender
reassignment
discrimination.
K
Having
said
that,
all
of
the
services
in
Scotland
that
provide
these
crucial
services
to
women
don't
do
that,
but
there
is
that
the
equal
ability
to
do
it.
That's
a
separate
question:
that's
about
gender
reassignment
discrimination!
It's
a
separate
issue
from
what
the
meaning
of
the
term
sex
is
in
the
Equality
Act,
which
the
Commission
are
very
clear,
is
about
legal
sex
and
not
about
biological
sex.
A
You
see,
there's
obviously
there's
a
waited
to
be
hidden.
Things
are
shifting,
and
if
you
read
that
Guardian
article
people
aiming
and
all
eminent
lawyers
seem
to
have
different
views
on
this
and
I
think
that's
one
of
the
criticisms
that
that
is
a
lack
of
clarity.
So
and
are
we?
This
committees
been
asked
to
look
at
some
of
these
big
fundamental
issues
and
just
slice
in
the
census
bill
at
a
time
when
that
is
some
legal
uncertainty,
even
amongst
the
experts
which
I
agree
with
I.
K
Mean
certainly
there's
a
big
debate
going
on
at
the
moment,
as
you
know,
about
the
gender
recognition
act,
the
UK
government
and
the
Scottish
Government
both
have
proposals
on
that
that
is
going
to
have
some
impacts
on
the
way
the
census
is
perceived
when
it
happens.
So
the
timing
from
that
point
of
view
for
this
bill.
Fortunately,
this
bill
doesn't
specify
what
the
sex
question
should
be.
The
gender
recognition
act
bill
is,
as
I
understand
it
being
promised
by
the
Scottish
Government
for
the
2019
to
2020
Scottish
parliamentary
year.
K
So
by
the
time
this
committee,
if
it
is,
this
committee,
gets
look
at
the
census
order
which
specifies
subject
matter
of
e
of
each
question
and
the
the
census
regulations
that
set
out
the
actual
question
paper
will
be
much
further
along
in
terms
of
that
process
of
developing
the
new
gender
recognition
Act.
So
from
that
point
of
view,
I
think
that's
going
to
be
the
key
point
at
which
you
want
to
look
very
closely
what
the
Scottish
Government
is
proposing.
K
The
wording
of
the
question
should
be,
and,
as
I
say,
I
think
by
then
things
will
be
a
lot
clearer
in
terms
of
what
the
future
of
gender
recognition
law.
These
reforms
that
the
Scottish
Government
has
proposed,
what
those
will
look
like
than
they
are
now
because
we're
now,
what
10
months
away
nine
months
away
from
the
point
where
the
Scottish
government
will
be
announcing
in
its
legislative
programme
for
next
year.
What
they're
doing
about
the
gender
recognition,
aids.