►
Description
1. Declaration of interests: Jamie Greene and Alexander Stewart will be invited to declare any relevant interests.
2. Scotland's Screen Sector: The Committee will take evidence from-
Dr Michael Franklin, Institute for Creative and Cultural Entrepreneurship (ICCE), Goldsmiths College, University of London;
Andrew Barnes, Associate Director, Olsberg SPI;
Alex Tosta, Research Manager , RSU Team, The British Film Institute;
Dr Inge Sorensen, Lecturer in Digital Economy and Culture (Theatre, Film and Television Studies), University of Glasgow.
3. Annual report: The Committee will consider a draft annual report for the parliamentary year from 12 May 2017 to 11 May 2018.
4. Scotland's Screen Sector (in private): The Committee will consider the evidence heard earlier in the meeting.
5. Work programme (in private): The Committee will consider its work programme.
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
15th
meeting
in
2018
of
the
culture,
tourism,
Europe
and
External
Relations
Committee
I'd
like
to
remind
members
and
the
public
to
turn
off
mobile
phones
and
any
members
using
electronic
equipment
to
access
committee
papers
should
please
ensure
that
they're
switched
to
silence.
The
first
item
on
the
agenda
is
a
declaration
of
interests.
A
Alexander
Stewart
and
Jamie
Greene
were
appointed
to
the
place
Jackson
Carlo
and
Rachel
Hamilton,
respectively,
as
members
of
the
culture,
tourism,
Europe
and
External
Relations
Committee
and
I'd
like
to
warmly
welcome
Alexander
and
Jamie
to
the
committee
and,
on
behalf
of
the
committee,
I,
would
like
to
extend
our
thanks
to
Jackson
and
Rachel
for
all
the
work
that
they
did
during
the
time
on
the
committee.
So
before
we
move
on,
I
would
like
to
ask
Alexander,
Stewart
and
Jimmy
keen
to
declare
any
interests
relevant
to
the
committee.
Can.
B
C
You
can
be
know
and
like
to
also
pay
tribute
to
my
colleagues
for
their
work
in
the
committee
I'm,
looking
forward
to
being
on
this
committee,
given
the
external
relations
element
of
the
committee
I'd,
just
like
to
clarify
in
my
membership
of
cross
bite
groups
on
voting
bridges
of
Israel
and
the
cross
oppose
you
go
from
Taiwan.
Thank.
A
You
very
much
and
you're
both
very
welcome
to
the
committee,
our
second
item
of
business
today
as
an
evidence
session
on
the
committee's
inquiry
into
scotland
screen
sector
focusing
on
research,
statistics
and
value.
This
will
be
our
last
evidence
session
with
stakeholders
before
heating
from
creative,
scotland
and
the
cabinet
secretary
for
culture,
tourism
and
external
affairs
next
thursday.
The
committee
then
intends
to
publish
its
report
before
the
summer
recess,
I'd
like
to
welcome
my
witnesses
today
and
dr.
A
Michael
Franklin,
heir
of
the
Institute
for
creative
and
cultural
entrepreneurship
at
Goldsmiths
College,
the
University
of
London
Andrew
Barnes,
associate
director
osburgh
SPI
Alex,
toaster
research
manager,
RSU
team
at
the
British
Film
Institute
and
Inga
Sorenson
lecturer
in
digital
economy
and
culture,
and
at
the
University
of
Glasgow,
I'd
like
to
begin,
if
I
may,
and
by
asking
mr.
Barnes
some
specific
questions,
because
I
know
that
your
consultancy,
Augsburg
SBI,
was
involved
in
preparing
some
of
the
data
on
which,
in
which
the
screen
unit
the
screen
unit
collaborative
proposal
as
best
as
I
could
eggs.
It's.
A
D
The
overall
impression
is
that
there
is
a
lot
of
data
out
there,
but
perhaps
the
coherence
of
that
data
in
terms
of
having
a
but
a
number
of
different
data
sets
that
align
with
one
another
and
which
can
be
used
in
a
single
fashion
was
perhaps
lacking.
So,
as
you'll
note
from
the
report,
we
rose
the
we
had
to
put
a
range
of
findings
in
for
turnover,
GBA
and
FTE
employee
numbers
on
the
basis
that
we
couldn't
be
sure
from
the
data
that
we
wouldn't
double
count.
D
A
Quite
a
technical
issue
for
many
of
us,
and
but
you
know
there
are
some
things
that
leap
Paiutes
in
terms
of
your
comments
and
your
report,
and
one
of
them
is
the
risk
of
double
counting,
which
you
have
addressed
in
some
of
your
figures.
And
do
you
think
that
are
you
satisfied
that
the
data
doesn't
contain
any
double
counting,
I?
Think.
D
So,
whereas
the
use
of
the
ons
level
statistics
on
companies-
and
you
know
which
companies
were
in,
which
si
si
code
God
has
a
certain
amount
of
the
way
and
companies
house
filings
on
those
and
the
production
spend
data
from
Creative
Scotland
God
as
a
certain
amount
of
the
way
in
the
other
direction.
What
we
can't
with
any
degree
of
precision
tell
at
this
moment
in
time
is
we're
in
the
middle.
Those
overlap
and
the
degree
of
overlap
has.
A
D
Argue
that
the
major
challenge
that
you
face
in
as
a
nation
in
increasing
production
spend
is
knowing
is
to
be
able
to
identify
the
degree
to
which
you've
increased
production
spent
and
to
accurately
measure
the
impact
of
that
at
a
future
stage.
I
mean
we
work
across
many
countries,
starting
at
a
much
lower
base
level
than
Scotland
in
implementing
screen
support
systems,
and
we
always
tell
these
countries
that
putting
data
collection
provisions
in
as
part
of
that
investment
is
something
which
is
required
to
be
able
to
accurately
determine
the
impact
of
that
investment.
D
So
I
think
in
Scotland
a
certain
degree
of
that
exists.
But
there
has
to
be
the
question
of
how
one
puts
a
data
collection
methodology
in
place
which
allows
you
to
evaluate
the
impact
of
the
the
investments
against
their
targets
and
then
track
that
back
to
where
you
started.
The
first
part
of
that
might
not
be
possible,
unfortunately,
but
the
second
part
is
absolutely
critical,
as
Scotland's.
A
Before
I
move
on
I
just
want
to
ask
something
specific
about
you
about
your
data.
You
meant
you
mentioned
that
you
include
a
non
domiciled
cinemas,
so
I
assume
that
you
know
your
our
multi
screens,
so
that
is
going
into
the
overall
kind
of
figures
and
terms
or
fare.
You
know
this
green
sector
in
Scotland
in
terms
of
employment
and
investment.
I
think
probably
most
people,
and
certainly
for
the
publish
purposes,
are
vote
inquiry.
A
D
Was
put
in
after
discussion
with
our
clients
on
this
occasion
it
was
felt
that,
without
that
particular
piece
of
data,
the
overall
report
would
provide
an
underestimate
of
the
impact
of
these
that
part
of
the
screen
sector,
and
that
reflects
the
fact
that,
even
if
the
screen,
the
the
o
beneficial
owner
of
that
particular
cinema,
is
not
domiciled
in
Scotland,
the
wages
which
it
pays
to
Scottish
residents
and
employees
would
nonetheless
have
a
downstream
impact
on
the
Scottish
economy.
It's
a
tricky
balance.
D
E
Thank
You
convener.
It
might
be
helpful
if
the
panel
could
outline.
Of
course,
what
areas
of
data
are
to
be
prioritized.
Mr.
Baran's
has
taught
money
about
the
economic
impact,
but
that
has
been
submissions
are
owned,
orders,
participation
and
what
they
can
a
softer
value
of
the
sector
des
and
also
where
the
panel
identify
where
there
are
gaps
in
Scotland's
knowledge,
where
we
need
to
increase
the
area
data.
F
So
from
BFI
perspective,
I
can
show
you
how
we
would
approach
an
issue
like
this
and
for
us,
we'd
be
looking
first
for
identify
and
what
the
outcome
we
would
like
to
achieve
from
any
kind
of
research
or
data
collection,
and
then
from
this
would
be
identifying.
What
are
the
key
and
critical
questions
that
need
to
be
answered
from
this
and
then
we'd
follow
this
up
with
trying
to
identify
what
data
is
already
available
and
what
data
needs
to
be
accessed.
E
To
interrupt,
do
you
think
I
don't
have
to
Power
had
a
chance
to
look
in
detail
at
screen
unit
proposals.
They
have
published
a
fairly
lengthy
document.
So
far.
That's
that's
quite
technical,
but
do
you
think
the
it's
clear
enough?
What
the
what
they're
trying
to
achieve
what
the
outcomes
are,
as
you
say
that
then
lead
back
to
what
to
need
to
collect
in
order
to
reach
the
stage
you
think.
Do
you
agree
with
what
they've
identified
and
do
you
think
they
have
the
right
priorities
in
place?
I.
F
G
There's
a
really
really
good
point,
I
think
the
the
issue
of
into
relation
of
the
data
census
is
really
important
and
as
points
out
in
terms
of
this,
the
UK
level
there's
certain
things
that
every
funder
of
films
across
the
UK
would
like
to
know
and
there's
also
specific
questions.
You
want
to
get
this
granularity
of
their
Scottish
level,
but
I
think
in
setting
up
that
work,
it
needs
to
be
passed
and
parcel.
G
I
think
was
mentioned
earlier,
as
in
when
you're
setting
up
any
of
their
systems,
it
needs
to
be
part
and
parcel
of
just
the
general
work
of
business,
so
as
distinct
from,
although
there
should
be
people
with
expertise
within
statistics
and
understanding,
interesting
research
on
it,
but
as
part
and
parcel
of
what
happens
that,
then
the
data
is
just
part
of
parcel
of
you
know
allocating
funding
or
the
operation
of
the
exhibition
sector.
So
all
of
that
is
feed
through
part
part
of
what's
going
on
as
opposed
to
having
to
think
every
three
four
years.
G
Are
we
doing
it
right?
It
should
be
a
continuous
ongoing
thing
and
that
should
be
linked
to
what
goes
on
at
the
the
BFI,
but
also
at
the
European
level
as
well
so
I
mean
I
just
wrote
a
foreground.
It
should
be
the
the
role
of
teamwork,
especially
making
sure
that
data
can
be
mapped
across
different
areas.
It
is
really
important
in.
E
G
G
H
Think
also,
it's
important
to
define
what
the
screen
sector
is
and
I
think
the
interim
report
it
was.
It
was
interesting
to
hear
that
you
are
the
first
ones
who
mentioned
in
Netflix
and
and
we're
not
the
first
ones,
but
that
the
collaborative
report
is
quite
a
media
centric
and
focused
on
film
and
TV,
and
the
screen
sector,
of
course,
is
many
things.
It's
also
games,
it's
also
via
VR.
It's
also
a
mobile
and
web
content
and
I
think
it's
important
going
forward
to
also
measure
these
things
in
a
Scottish
context.
H
D
H
D
I
think
that
sort
of
coherence
and
and
across
the
four
nations
is
particularly
important.
We
as
a
company
are
currently
in
the
process
of
finalizing
a
revised
economic
impact.
Study
of
the
UK
screen
sector
tax,
reliefs
and
part
of
the
aim
at
the
officer
outside
of
that
particular
process,
was
to
try
to
the
greatest
extent
possible,
to
identify
in
a
national
and
regional
basis
what
the
breakdown
of
UK
wide
production
spend
and
impact
was.
D
The
data
didn't
allow
for
that,
and
even
though
people
like
Northern
Ireland,
screened,
creative
Scotland
and
the
Welsh
agencies
collect
data,
they
all
do
it
in
a
slightly
different
way,
and
that
leads
to
a
lack
of
coherence
so
to
be
able
to
identify
not
just
the
impact
within
Scotland
as
a
nation
that
how
Scotland
compares
to
other
nations
within
the
UK,
which
are
identified
in
the
screen
sector
proposal.
I,
would
argue
that
it's
important
to
ensure
that
there
is
some
degree
of
coherence
across
UK
wide
data
gathering
which
allows
for
such
persons
to
be
drawn.
I
Thank
you
very
much.
I
really
just
had
a
couple
of
questions
around
skills
and
skills,
development,
Scotland
and
the
research
program
that
they
are
carrying
out
with
creative
Scotland,
obviously
funded
and
commissioned
a
research
program
to
look
exactly
what's
going
on
within
the
company
based
on
the
screen
sector
and
they've
said
much
more
significant,
significantly
what's
going
on
within
Scotland
freelance
workforce,
so
is
really
just
to
get
your
views
on
that
and
what
you
hope
to
see.
Come
of
that.
I
D
Well,
I
think
I
mean
there's,
there's
interesting
things
going
on
in
the
in
the
freelance
workforce
sort
of
survey
space.
At
the
moment,
creative
skill
set
have
recently
started
to
redo
research,
which
obviously,
within
our
report,
we
suggest
the
hands-on
summer
a
while,
which
was
correct
at
the
time
again
there
that
might
have
some
value
and
to
avoid
double
use
of
resources.
It
would
be
helpful
to
ensure
that
any
work
that's
done
aligns
with
what
creative
skill
set
are
doing
at
a
uk-wide
level
and
historically,
they
have
done
broken
down
into
nations
and
regions.
D
I
would
I
think
you
know
when
you
look
at
the
data
for
freelance
it's,
it's
always
a
particularly
difficult
area,
because
although
there
are
a
lot
of
Scottish
freelancers
working
in
the
UK's
film
production
sector
and
TV
production
sector,
the
question
of
where
they
ordinarily
work
is
is
a
is
a
pretty
key
one,
and
it
goes
back
to
the
question
of
definition
and
what
you're
trying
to
achieve
as
a
policy
objective
here.
Is
it
having
Scottish
workers?
D
Is
there
having
workers
based
in
Scotland
having
workers
who
ordinarily
work
in
Scotland,
because
those
are
three
potentially
very
different
things
so
I
think
you
know
the
question
of
how
you
achieve
granularity
within
the
data
which
would
allow
you
to
sort
of
identify
the
Scottish
freelance
workforce.
However,
you
choose
to
define
that
is,
is
a
pretty
key
one
and,
to
be
honest,
I've,
never
seen
anyone
answer
that
question
I,
don't
know
that.
There's
a
straightforward
answer
to
it:
I.
I
Think
that's
one
thing
to
using
the
evidence
that
seemed
where
there
was
quite
a
lot
of
data
missing
was
in
terms
of
finding
a
freelance
freelance
workers,
I'm
and
I.
Think
that
would
relate
that
and
some
of
the
evidence
we
received
where
I
suppose
it's
been
seen.
As
you
know,
it's
not
really
they
don't
see
it.
D
So
you
know
exactly
what
level
of
seniority
you're
looking
for
that
might
prove
to
be
a
bit
more
difficult,
because
it's
a
very
fluid
industry,
where
people
move
around
a
lot
for
work-
and
you
know
what's
true
one
day-
might
not
entirely
be
true.
The
next
is
if
a
different
production
comes
up
and
takes
somebody
from
Scotland
to
anywhere
in
the
world.
Fundamentally,
so
it's
yeah
as
I
say
it's
a
tricky
challenge.
D
I
noticed
that
in
the
in
one
of
the
proposals
it
would
there
was
something
about
using
using
what
they
called
the
the
sort
of
workforce
databases.
That's
always
a
challenge,
because
the
most
senior
members
of
crew
don't
like
to
go
on
those
because
they
see
it
as
an
exercise
that
they
can't
get
work
any
other
way.
It's
such
a
word-of-mouth
industry
that
they
will
probably
reject
that
approach.
D
D
J
Just
before
moving
on
to
a
specific
question,
I'm
production
spend
one
of
the
frustrations
that
I
think
we've
come
across
on
a
number
of
occasions
from
the
industry
of
the
industries,
and
this
process
is
a
sense.
The
wheels
are
being
reinvented
that
don't
have
to
be
so
before.
Getting
to
a
specific
question,
wonder
if
anyone
could
just
say
examples
of
public
bodies
elsewhere,
screen
unit
equivalents
that
are
effectively
marshalling
or
coordinating
the
data
collection
required
to
actually
grow
and
sustain
industries.
I.
F
Am
I
work
within
the
research
and
starts?
You
know,
as
you
well
know,
and
as
part
of
that
we
have
an
extensive
database
that
helps
us
provide
essentially
a
compendium
of
all
statistics
across
a
range
of
areas
in
film
which
is
within
our
statistical
yearbook.
So
within
this
we
have
statistics
not
just
on
the
value
chain
at
box
office
through
distribution
etc.
F
But
we
also
do
have
some
statistics
on
audiences
education
as
well
as
film
economy,
so
that
looks
at
the
GPA
of
film
within
the
UK
and
also
levels
of
employment,
and
we
also
look
at
public
investment,
so
that
just
looks
beyond
the
tax
relief
but
also
looks
to
see
who
are
the
other
public
funders
of
film
within
the
UK
I.
Think.
F
The
issue
for
the
panel
today
is
I
provide
data
at
a
UK
level
and
it's
very
obvious
that
you
want
dates
or
it's
a
Scottish
level
and
a
lot
of
the
time
it's
not
easily
available.
So
as
you're
about
to
go
into
production,
I'll
mention
that
so
with
in
production,
we
track
all
the
productions
that
are
made
so
film
productions
that
are
made
within
the
UK.
F
But
it's
very
difficult
to
get
data
to
identify
whereabouts
that
spending
in
the
UK's
is
have
been
done,
so
the
nearest
we
get
to
that
is
we
get
some
data
on
location
of
shoots.
So,
for
example,
we'll
know
a
production
is
shot
in
Scotland,
but
we
don't
know
how
long
and
we
don't
know
how
much
money's
been
spent
in
Scotland.
F
So
that's
just
one
of
the
issues
but
going
back
to
what
originally
said
so
already
at
EU
level,
there's
UK
level
there's
quite
a
comprehensive
range
of
dates,
so
that
is
freely
available,
but
unfortunately
I
know
you
wanted
a
granular
level
and
we're
limited
by
the
data
that's
available,
but
also
limited
by.
If
you
go
on
the
ground
to
a
production
going
back
to
the
production,
spend
the
budgets
don't
work
out
that
way.
If
they
say
they
want
to
do
a
month's
shooting
in
Scotland,
they
will
just
have
a
budget
for
shoot.
J
F
About
what
goes
on
in
in
other
countries,
garden
production
I
only
know
in
a
general
way.
But
yes,
it
is
pretty
much
that
so
I
know
when
you
get
a
large
studio
coming
to
the
UK
to
shoot
here,
they
will
have
they'll
be
able
to
say
this
is
our
UK
budget
that-
and
this
is
what
I'll
spend
is
elsewhere,
but
they
won't
be
able
to
go
into
we've
done
some
shoots
in
New
Scotland,
say,
and
this
is
how
much
we're
shots
in
Scotland,
and
this
is
the
cost,
though,
of
that.
D
Speak
to
your
question
about
the
United
States
because
of
the
different
way
that
film
incentives
work
in
the
US
and
we've
recently,
actually,
maybe
a
year
ago,
finished
some
work
in
the
state
of
Georgia.
On
this,
there
tend
to
be
good.
Data
on
production
spend
on
a
state-by-state
basis,
because
it's
the
states
themselves
that
incentivize
the
production
and
same
in
Australia
same
in
Canada,
where
the
provinces
provide
incentives
and
now,
as
a
result,
they
get
order
to
spend
data
which
provides
them
with
good
detail
and.
K
D
In
terms
of
the
you
know,
which
countries
do
this
well
I
think
there
are
a
lot
of
countries
that
do
a
lot
of
work
on
this.
You
know
we've
worked
in
recently
in
Australia,
which
has
very
good
data.
We've
reached,
we
worked
in,
you
know,
Canada
the
United
States,
most
European
countries,
they've
all
got
good
data
to
a
degree.
It
depends
on
their
particular
aims
and
that's
that's
always
the
thing
it's
it's.
They
collect
data
based
on
what
they're
trying
to
prove
there
could
always
put
more
money
into
it.
D
H
It'll
be
helpful
to
look
at
the
Scandinavian
countries
and
because
there
seemed
to
be
two
needs
for
statistics
here
want
to
drive
the
industry
and
tell
us
what
the
Scottish
screen
sector
is
is
is
really
light,
but
also
one
specifically
in
this
context
to
drive
policy
and
in
the
Scandinavian
countries
they
have
film
law
every
four
years.
That
decides
what
the
sector
should
be
doing
and
gives
direction
and
end
budgets
to
the
screen
funders
and
they
in
that
process.
H
J
Just
very
briefly
for
dr.
Franken
come
saying
it's
a
really
interesting
example.
Is
there
an
element
of
trust,
making
that
process
easier
that
because
the
production
companies
themselves
have
a
level
of
trust
and
the
public
agencies,
and
then
the
government
there's
that
collaborative
approach
that
there
is
a
there's
more
of
a
willingness
to
share
data
than
there
is
perhaps
in
countries
where
the
relationship
between
production
companies
in
the
state
is
more
challenged.
That's.
H
Really
interesting
way
of
looking
at
it.
You
could
also
look
at
it
in
completely
different
ways,
because
everybody
has
a
stake
and
knows
that
the
film
law
comes
up
every
four
years
and
because
it
is
a
consultation
between
stakeholders,
they
in
streets
of
the
various
industry,
bodies
and
I
can
know
most
about
the
Danish
context
and
and
the
policymakers
people
knows
that
this
is
coming
up
and
and
know
how
to
inform
the
policy
making
process
it
has.
H
Yes,
it
generates
trust,
it
concern
you
it's
distrust
I'm
sure,
but
it's
also
it's
a
quality
control,
because
the
industry,
then
of
our
stakeholders,
can
say
there
are
these
issues
that
are
facing
the
industry
now
that
we
need
to
discuss
and
that
need
to
be
integrated
into
the
future
policy
for
the
next
four
years.
So
so
there's
a
degree
of
collaboration,
but
also
a
degree
of
quality
control
that
complaints
or
issues
can
come
up
in
that
process
and
also
it
can
drive
real
important
structural
things
in
the
East.
H
In
the
industry,
for
example,
the
Danish
film
law
has
has
quite
a
big
budget
allocation
and
priority
set
down
in
the
formula
for
creating
non-format
content.
So
web
content,
VR
there's
been
a
budget,
allocating
a
priority
on
that
in
Sweden
they
have
50/50
gender
quotas,
there
are
enshrined
in
policy
or
then
of
quotas
or
targets.
But
you
know
you
can
make
policy
decisions
that
matches
both
government
priorities,
but
also
the
industry
and
stakeholders
priorities,
and
it
just
seems
to
be
a
quiet
practice
event
and
good
way
of
organizing
your
screen
policy.
H
It
also
means
that
it
takes
that.
You
know
the
screen
unit
may
be
as
it
stands.
I
don't
know,
but
so
far
creative
Scotland
has
decided
in
a
way
what
their
own
priorities
would
be
for
the
screen
sector
and
that
I'm
sure
it
takes
a
lot
of
energy
and
time
and
and
and
resources,
whereas
if
that's
kind
of
a
given
and
it's
the
agency's
role
to
best
deliver
this
particular
film
little
and
that
seemed
to
create
maybe
a
better
process
and
a
more
transparent
process
as
well.
I
was.
A
G
Was
just
I
just
think
it's
a
really
good
point
about
the
trust
issue,
just
to
come
back
on
that
lab
to
I.
Think
what
mr.
bunting
a
very,
very
interesting
point
about.
You
can
always
spend
more
and
how
long
a
priest,
a
string
idea
right
in
terms
of
that
level
of
uncertainty
about
how
data
will
be
used
on
to
our
benefit.
There's
that
element
of
risk
about.
We
don't
know
the
ultimate
benefits.
G
If
we
go
down
that
that
route
and
so
I
think
that
is
when,
when
there
has
been
historically
a
little
bit
of
lack
of
wanting
to
participate
or
to
collect
data
within
Scotland,
it's
been
about
or
what
will
be
the
benefits,
and
there
is
that
that
ongoing
uncertainty,
which
requires
sort
of
the
work
and
so
I
think
what
you
see
in
the
variety
across
Europe.
Looking
at
the
way
in
which
European
audio-visual
Observatory
they
deal
with
data
from
all
different
areas
and
see
a
great
variety
in
the
resources
that
are
applied.
G
So
the
wonderful
output,
the
BFI
and
the
the
applied
thinking
of
the
CN
say
in
France,
where
they
got
huge
amounts
resources
done
to
this.
You
can
see
these
applications,
but
I
think
it's
the
taking
the
best
practice
from
exactly
stop
so
as
it
says,
and
use
it
applying
that
within
this
idea,
it
some
of
its
going
to
be
uncertain,
like
some
of
its
going
to
be
explanation.
Thank.
J
K
Look,
the
the
issue
of
trust
clearly
began
to
address
a
question.
I
was
going
to
ask
was:
how
is
the
data
made
robust,
because
clearly,
the
reasons
why
we'd
want
data
would
be
likes
of
ensuring
that
companies
fulfill
their
obligations
for
filming
and
spending
in
Scotland
or
in
response
to
getting
public
supports?
They
have
to
show
that
of
spending
money
in
Scotland's,
so
hedge
insured,
its
robust
yeah,
especially
for
companies
from
outside
of
Scotland
through
filming
here
and.
F
K
F
So
I'll
have
to
refer
back
to
the
BFI
so
within
BFI
because
of
we
produce
all
of
our
statistics
and
research
for
the
public
and
in
industry.
Good
and
parts
of
that
is,
we
produced
official
statistics,
so
that's
part
of
the
holes
to
Cisco
to
practice.
So
all
start
up
before
the
public
good
and
by
following
that
code
you
kind
of
develop
a
sense
of
quality,
but
also
a
sense
of
trust
in
statistics
from
that
and
that
kind
of
feeds
into
a
circle
where
companies
are
more
willing
to
actually
give
your
data
in
general.
F
So
for
me
it's
a
mix
of
all
of
those
items
and
if
I
want
to
refer
back
to
Scotland
I
would
say
you
could
look
at
that,
but
I
think,
as
Inger
mentioned
in
previous
example,
I
think
it'd
be
really
useful
to
see
what
other
countries
have
done
as
well.
I
think
the
Danish
example
is
is
actually
a
very
good
example
of
ongoing
user
engagement,
which
I
found
at
the
BFI
is
vitally
important
for
developing
any
kind
of
trust
in
any
part
of
the
data
and
statistics
process.
D
To
speak
to
the
question
of
how
you
ensure
that
people
are
paid
their
obligations,
the
standard
ways
is
to
have
those
data
audited.
Auditors
tend
to
be
required
for
every
incentive
system
and
ever
a
lot
of
public
funding
where
there
are
spend
requirements
of
that
kind.
You
see
they
have
a
particular
duty
under
law
in
relation
to
how
that
you
know
how
they
sign
off
data
and
that
leveraging
that
duty
tends
to
be
the
approach
that
is
taken
in
most
jurisdictions.
A
Because
you
mentioned
different
states
of
American
provinces
of
Canada
earlier
and
have
you
the
opportunity
to
look
at
just
how
rigid
they
are
about
making
sure
that
companies
that
see
they're
spending
the
money
in
Georgia
or
British
come
here
whatever
it
is
and
actually
doing
so?
And
how
does
that
compare
with
how
we
taste
that
cleaner
data
here
I
can't.
D
Speak
to
how
you
test
that
data
here,
I've
never
looked
at
it
in
detail,
so
I'd
sort
of
refer
you
to
Creative
Scotland
for
that
one
because
I,
because
we
didn't,
we
didn't
look
about
in
terms
of
how
this
gets
done
in
other
jurisdictions.
They
tend
to
be
very
robust
about
how
this
this
gets.
This
gets
done.
I
mean
there
have
been
cases
where
flippin
cases
in
the
UK,
where
order
to
spend
statements
have
been
proven
to
be
incorrect
and
those
people
who
have
ended
up
in
jail
because
of
that
particular
issue.
D
So
it
it
all,
speaks
to
us
to
systems
which
are
robust,
which
take
a
lot
of
care
in
how
the
money
is
returned
to
productions
which
have
availed
of
their
tax
credit
systems
and
other
another
selective
funding
systems,
and
where
producers
tend
to
see
it
as
a
cost
of
doing
business.
To
put
that
audit
requirements
in
place.
A
There's
two
things
going
on
here:
what
we're
talking
about
here,
which
is
since
from
fulfill
mainly
through
creative,
scotland
or
the
UK
government,
but
there's
also
sure
we're
a
separate
softcore
reviews
going
on
in
terms
of
the
regulations
of
out
of
london
spend
they
were
talking
about,
so
that
crate.
That
kind
of
issue
at
only
bus'ness
would
apply
to
both
those
wouldn't
it.
It.
D
L
D
Can
I
ask,
what's
meant
by
real-time
in
this
context,
tablet
in
the
in
the
questions
we
were
sent
at
advance?
It
was
referred
back
to
previous
evidence,
the
committee
and
working
through
that
evidence.
I
couldn't
find
the
term
raced.
So
I
just
want
to
wonder
what
the
the
what
is
meant
by
that
in
that
particular
term,
and
what
the
the
use
of
that
is
proposed.
As.
L
Let's
say
I
was
thinking
in
terms
of
work
and
other
sectors:
men
playoff
to
me,
coming
off
parliamentarian
a
lot
thinner,
an
electronics
company
and
the
data
that
was
collected
worst
on
on
a
daily
basis.
I'm,
not
suggesting
that,
because
I
think
that
would
be
extremely
difficult
for
their
for
the
waiter
sector,
but
to
have
something
through
that.
It's
a
weekly
or
monthly
updates
as
compared
to
annually
I.
Think
would
be
a
useful
and
certainly
probably
helpful
in
terms
of
the
data
collection
for
further
analysis.
I.
D
The
challenge
in
this
sector
is
that
the
lead
time
on
production
is
so
great
that
when
you
go
from
idea
to
final
content,
that's
three
years,
whether
that's
for
a
piece
of
film
content,
a
television
program
or
even
a
physical
facility
such
as
a
studio,
takes
a
while
to
build
that.
The
data
that
you've
got
at
the
start
are
no
longer
relevant
to
the
market
which
into
which
the
piece
of
content
is
released.
D
So
the
question
that
I
would
raise
in
relation
to
real-time
data
is
you
know
in
terms
of
how
it's
going
to
be
used,
and
he
goes
back
to
that.
How
long
as
a
piece
of
string
question
its?
Is
there
value
in
asking
people
to
do
this
or
is
it
you
know,
based
on
the
particular
needs
of
the
market
and
the
people
who
are
administering
this
there's
products?
L
L
Do
you
think
that
the
that
a
quest
and
the
specifications
for
44
that's
been
there's
been
looked
at,
are
clear
enough
and
and
how
flexible
do
you
think
that
that
actual
is
Israel
in
terms
of
the
the
changing
nature
of
the
sector
and
the
chin?
Therefore,
the
changing
nature
of
data
that
were
required
going
forward.
F
Looking
at
the
documentation
that
I
was
sent
to
me,
this
sounded
to
be
quite
honest.
Quite
the
standard
routine
day
to
that
film
that
the
film
industry
is
asking
for
for
me,
I
would
have
I,
wouldn't
actually
have
to
go
back
constantly
and
do
this
user
engagement
talk
to
the
industry
to
ensure
the
data
adapts
to
the
changes
in
the
industry,
and
you
know
prime
example,
for
that
says.
Ten
years
ago
I
you
know
we
were.
F
F
Flexibility
to
me
is
all
about
the
parameters
of
the
statistics
and
the
data,
and
that's
all
about
definitions,
switch
on
timeliness
with
this
real-time
data,
as
well
as
accurate
accuracy,
as
we've
mentioned
before,
so
the
data
that
you're
collecting
and
what
you
want
to
collect
data
on
you
have
to
be
responsive
to
whatever
the
industry
wants.
But
you
have
to
bear
in
mind
that
you
can't
made
these
changes
immediately
within
statistics.
It
doesn't
happen
this
quickly
and
also
I.
L
That's
helpful,
but,
but
certainly
it
takes
me
onto
one
of
the
points
from
dr.
Sorenson
earlier
when
you
spoke
about
the
Scandinavian
model
and
the
I'm
not
40-year
cycle.
So
in
terms
of
that
flexibility,
and
also
in
terms
of
that
that
appears
to
be
a
joint
approach.
It's
that
the
kind
of
thing
that
would
actually
be
useful
to
be
implemented
here,
being
amended
from
the
discussion
with
mr.
toaster.
H
But
you
know
engaged
in
a
variety
of
genres
and
a
variety
of
different
functions
throughout
the
year
and
also
in
in
Scotland.
There
is
a
sometimes
a
skilled
drain
towards
London
towards
other
industries,
and
not
just
in
Scotland
that
happens
to
across
the
sector,
but
to
try
and
find
out
how
do
freelancers,
who
engage
in
this
sector
actually
work?
How
do
they
make
their
money?
H
What
can
we
do
to
keep
them
creative,
keep
them
in
a
screen
sector
and
drive
future
develops
in
Scotland,
so
that's
kind
of
one
thing
and
that
I
think
could
feed
into
trying
to
a
identify.
What
are
the
future
trends
you
know?
Is
there
throughout
the
years?
Do
people
start
working
more
for
Netflix
or
developing
content
for
them
that
they
do
for
the
BBC
or
whatever
so
where's
the
industry
moving,
and
what
are
people
actually
doing
and
and
also
identify
the
skills
needs,
but
also
identify?
H
How
can
they
continue
a
being
creative
in
Scotland
and
what
what
does
it
take?
You
said:
I,
don't
know
tax
incentives,
roads
you
know
whatever
and
and
that
could
maybe
feed
into
bigger
statistics.
It
wouldn't
be
what
you
were
doing.
What
were
you
is
that
what
does
that
answer?
Your
question
I'm
not
sure.
L
L
Certainly,
it
sounds
like
that
so
like
needing
to
move
to
a
big
data
approach
without
potentially
having
that
clarity
in
terms
of
what
the
data
should
be.
What's
actually
going
to
be
the
quiet
and
also
potential
some
questions
in
terms
of
do
we
have
enough
technology
there
to
actually
gather
that
information
and
collated,
as
well
as
the
skills
to
do
so,
and
also
the
the
capabilities
within
the
unit
to
actually
deal
with
that
has.
F
F
I
may
sound
like
I'm,
repeating
myself
on
this,
but
from
from
a
research
and
data
so
that
if
there's
a
fundamental
how
you
get
and
I
think
once
you
have
those
clearly
defined,
then
you
can
decide
on
an
approach,
a
methodology
of
how
you
get
your
data
and
similar
terms.
You
need
to
have
this
user
engagement
running
in
parallel,
so
that
the
film
industry
is
involved
in
shape
in
its
own
industry,
but
also
having
a
say
in
what
stats
can
be
used
to
describe
the
industry
appropriately
and
whether
this
is
whether
to
sell
this
off.
F
F
To
be
honest,
I
mean,
if
you
want
sure
and
I
know,
there
are
certain
issues
that
certain
methodologies
won't
happen,
as
Inga's
mentioned,
freelancers,
from
the
way
that
creative
skills
have
done
freelancers
are
very
difficult
to
even
get
into
data
because
of
than
the
whole
definition
around
freelancers
and
the
behavior
and
activity
of
that
type
of
employee
employer,
and
that's
just
one
example
so
for
me,
is
I.
Think
it's
all
about
setting
out
parameters
first
and
those
based
on
your
outcome
and
the
questions
you
want
and
and
I
think
once
you've
got
those
sorted.
F
You
can
then
discuss
methodologies,
real-time
data.
Where
do
we
look
for
out
the
future?
The
data
I
think
just
one
more
pointers,
I
think
when
you
talk
about
research
and
statistics
by
the
nature
than
they
are
retrospective,
as
Inger
mentioned.
That's
because
we
have.
We
have
to
collect
data
a
certain
time
point
and
then
reporting
it.
There's
no
escaping
that
and
I
know
with
the
likes
of
Netflix,
who
say
they
can
record
what
their
viewers
are
watching
or
what
their
directors
are
making
immediately.
F
A
B
Know
a
good
morning
panel
we've
talked
about
skills
but
I'd
like
to
every
time,
I,
look
at
employment
and
how
that
works
in
this
process.
So
we
have
a
growing
cultural
sector.
We
have
more
people
working
in
the
arts
and
culture
and
the
economies
bigger
and
better.
But
when
it
comes
to
collecting
employment
data,
we
still
seem
to
have
some
gaps
in
that
process.
Is
it
because
there's
not
enough
investment?
Does
that
have
an
impact
in
the
whole
process
or
how?
F
So
at
the
Four,
Nations
or
regional
level
is
often
the
dates
has
been
suppressed
because
it
can
disclose
either
an
individual
or
a
company,
and
that's
his
one
data
issue.
I
think
that
well,
I
haven't
Scotland.
I
was
checking
the
employment
figures
yesterday
and
and
actually
they're
being
suppressed
for
parts
of
Scotland,
and
so
that
hinders
me
providing
a
UK
picture.
F
How
you
would
fulfill
that
gap
is,
is
quite
it's
quite
difficult
actually,
because
beyond
the
official
statistics
law
is
suppressing
the
costs
of
their
rules
and
regulations
around
disclosure,
control
and
I
think
it
would
need
further
investigation
of
whether
you
do
an
additional
research
or
additional
data
collection
on
this
I.
Don't
know
if
the
rest
of
the
panel
have
anything
to
add
to
that
yeah.
D
I
think
that
sort
of
company
level
ground
up
process
is
probably
the
one
if
we
were
working
on
at
that
kind
of
project
which
we
did
recently
in
the
Republic
of
Ireland.
We
had
to
use
a
ground-up
level
approach,
so
look
at
individual
companies
identify
the
the
number
of
people
who
are
working
within
them
through
a
survey
process
and
do
it
that
way.
D
A
C
Thank
You,
convener
and
good
morning
panel
I,
probably
should
have
declared
that
volunteer
interest
that
I
worked
in
the
television
production
sector
for
13
years,
four
teams
of
parliament.
So
it's
a
subject
close
to
my
heart.
I
went
to
pick
up
dr.
Sorenson
on
a
point
you
made
earlier
around
definitions
of
what
is
the
sector
know
when
I
was
in
television
production?
We
would
get
very
excited
on
the
overnights.
We
had
a
couple
hundred
thousand
viewers,
but
the
reality
is
today.
People
across
the
length
and
breadth
of
the
country
are
making
content.
H
H
F
F
Actually,
it
has
elements
where
there
is
not
much
structure
about
which
makes
gain
in
any
information
about
it,
sometimes
quite
difficult
beyond
so
official
data
collection
or
how
we
look
at
production,
where
we
actually
employ
someone
to
track
production
in
the
UK
and
I
think,
there's
a
general
difficulty
and
understanding
of
what
this
these
new
they're,
not
really
new
screens,
but
this
new
digital
area
actually
is
let
alone
starting
to
track
it.
And
why
he's
doing
and
what
does
it
contribute
to
the
economy
overall,
say
and
I
mean
one
way
we
do
it.
F
If
I,
we
started
really
basic
basic
and
in
a
way,
but
it's
not
still
quite
complex.
Well,
we've
we've
started
to
follow
in
productions
and
developments
in
high-end
television,
children's
television,
animation,
television
and
video
games.
There
are
going
through
the
certification
process
and
trying
to
become
officially
British,
and
that's
just
a
starting
point.
F
I
think
there
is
an
element
that
this
is
a
set
to
we're
in
a
way
they
traditionally
have
not
been
in
this
day
to
share
in
world
are
providing
data
to
see
what's
going
on,
because
they
it
appears
that
they
either
want
to
keep
within
themselves,
say
like
Netflix,
which
you
can
watch
anywhere
interning
at
how
or
if
you're
in
say,
the
gaming
world,
they
kind
of
know.
What's
going
on
and
there's
a
lot
of,
there's
a
lot
of
kind
of
network
infrastructure
from
what
I've
gleaned
from
my
from
the
little
I
know
about
it.
F
So,
overall
it
it's
quite
difficult,
because
at
the
moment
we
have
quite
a
structured
and
almost
a
traditional
approach
to
collecting
data
on
these
new
sets,
but
they
are
not
traditional
in
a
way
they
work
slightly
different
and
in
a
way
the
data
gathering
hasn't
really
adapted.
You
know
for
them,
so
it's
quite
difficult
to
actually
suggest
in
that
moment,
without
looking
further
into
them
and
doing
more
on
the
groundwork
and
getting
more
involved.
F
A
C
Suggestion,
if
I
could
thank
you
very
much
for
that
I
response.
If
I
could
follow
this
up,
perhaps
moving
to
a
slightly
different
area,
does
the
panel
have
any
views
on
the
gathering
of
data
around
the
disparity
of
gender
pay
in
the
industry?
We
talk
about
it,
a
lot
in
other
industries,
but
it's
perhaps
not
something.
We
talk
about
very
much
in
the
screen
sector
or
any
qualitative
or
quantitative
data.
C
That's
produced
on
whether
women
have
been
paid,
the
same
rates
for
examples,
freelancers
as
male
counterparts
or
the
representation
of
of
women
in
the
industry
in
terms
of
specific
roles
which
are
dominated
by
by
one
sex
or
the
other.
How
much
data
is
produced
on
that
and
where
does
the
plan
I
think
we
could
do
better
in
that
respect?
There.
H
Is
a
report
on
on
diversity
in
Scotland
and
I?
Think
I
always
producer
before
I
came
back
into
academia
ten
years
ago
and
and
I
think
and
and
this
is
not
unique
to
Scotland.
This
is
a
pan,
we're
all
saying
and
that
the
problem
is
not
so
much
around
gender
pace
how
to
keep
women.
You
know
it's
especially
in
the
business
once
they
want
to
start
families,
it's
not
a
particularly
family-friendly
industry,
and
that's
certainly
why
I
left.
G
Like
there
are
many
initiatives
that
are
addressing
this
issue
that
are
really
important,
I
think
for
the
screening
to
engage
with
I
mean
well.
There
is
one
specifically
around
parenting
in
film,
also
women
in
film
and
TV,
with
those
short
which
are
UK
initiatives,
I
think
it
the
film
the
parent
wants
called
racing
films
and
the
women
in
film
and
TV
both
doing
really
really
good
work.
Again
then,
at
the
international
level
there's
the
Annenberg.
G
You
may
have
come
across
this
inclusion
rider
if
you
like,
a
equality
for
pay
issue
which
can
be
put
into
a
contract
at
the
budgetary
level,
that
you
know
that
when
public
funders
receive
applications,
they
get
a
budget
and
that
will
have
breakdown
off,
certainly
a
high
level.
The
named
cast
pay
parity,
so
that
information
is,
is
there
within
within
funders
and
certainly
also
in
commercial
bodies,
I
think
for
grounding.
The
importance
of
these
issues
is
absolutely
vital,
I
think
rated
on
the
second
question.
G
Part
of
your
question
was
about
representative
representation
on
screen
I
just
like
to
flag
under
some
great
work,
which
is
being
done
by
Tatars
colleagues
within
BFI
mr.
Anson,
to
the
presentation
on
Monday
about
using
their
filmography
database
to
allocate
you
know
where
different
genders
ethnicities
are
being
represented
under
represented
in
the
whole
of
the
filmography
of
British
film,
and
that's
absolutely
something
I
think
Scott
needs
to
engage
with
as
a
partner.
A
J
J
A
A
A
C
One
of
my
other
committees,
I,
had
quite
a
robust
conversation
with
my
colleagues
and
the
committee
about
what
more
committees
could
do
and
reflecting
on
the
work
that
they've
done
to
ensure
that
they
are
as
accessible
as
possible
in
terms
of
users
who
are
deaf
or
blind
BSL
subtitling
of
committee
meetings
and
making
sure
that
the
work
that
they
do
gets
out
to
the
widest
range
of
people
and
I.
And
we
were
pleased
as
a
result
of
that
conversation
to
include
a
section
on
the
equalities
impacts
of
the
work
that
they
had
done
that
year.
A
You
very
much
that's
very
important
and
useful
contribution
and
we
have
actually
responded
as
a
committee
to
the
qualities
committees
invitation
they're,
asking
us
of
it.
It
was
very
subdued,
so
I
can
certainly
make
that
response
available
to
you,
but
it's
certainly
something
that
we
should
be
reading
of
and
perhaps
I
could
it
included
in
our
business
planning,
D
they're
going
forward
to
make
sure
we're
always
a
little
bit
in
future.
Any
other
comments
on.
E
A
I
think
that's
important
that
she
should
be
included,
obviously,
and
we
always
say,
take
more
evidence
from
Modern,
Languages
and
University,
and
the
importance
in
terms
of
delivering
on
Modern
Languages
courses
and
universities,
and
that
was
important
evidence
and
highlighted
in
the
reports
press
releases
that
are
called
so
yeah.
We
should
certainly
include
that
any
other
comments.