►
Description
1. Immigration Inquiry: The Committee will take evidence from-
Dr Alasdair Allan, Minister for International Development and Europe, Rachel Sunderland, Team Leader, EU Strategy and Migration, and Angela Hallam, Principal Research Officer, Scottish Government.
2. Immigration Inquiry (in private): The Committee will consider the evidence heard earlier in the meeting.
3. Work programme (in private): The Committee will consider its work programme.
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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A
Apologies
have
been
received
today
from
Lewis
MacDonald,
Tavish
Scott
and
Jackson
Carla
and
I'd
like
to
welcome
Dean
Lockhart,
who
will
be
substituting
for
Jackson
to
the
meeting.
Our
first
item
of
business
today
is
an
evidence
session
on
the
committee's
immigration
inquiry,
with
the
Minister
for
international
development
and
Europe
Alistair
Allan,
hey
I'd,
like
to
welcome
the
minister
and
this
official
said
they're
coming
to
give
evidence.
Today
there
we
have
Rachel
Sunderland
the
team
leader
of
EU
strategy
and
migration
and
Angela
Holland,
the
principal
research
officer
with
the
Scottish
Government
and
minister.
B
It's
been
clear
for
some
time
that
the
one-size-fits-all
approach
to
immigration
policy
in
the
United
Kingdom
isn't
sustainable
in
the
future
and
the
face
of
very
different
economic,
demographic
and
social
needs
across
the
UK
and
I
hope
that
we
can
actually
continue
to
find
some
degree
of
common
ground
across
the
parties
on
that
issue
in
Scotland.
So
the
Scottish
government
welcomes
and
Quietus
like
this,
that
recognized
the
potential
need
for
regional
variations
in
the
migration
system
to
ensure
that
the
system
serves
Scotland's
needs.
B
A
committee
will
have
seen
a
response
to
the
UK's
migration
Advisory
Committee
published
yesterday,
which
said
so
the
evidence
base
for
why
Scotland's
needs
are
different
from
the
rest
of
the
UK
and
hope.
This
will
also
be
helpful
to
yourselves,
as
I
highlighted
in
my
response
to
the
schema
theory.
As
part
of
the
commitment
outlined
in
the
Scottish
Government's
programme
for
government,
we
will
be
publishing
a
discussion.
People
say
thing
why
it
is
vital
third
economy
to
be
able
to
attract
talent
from
across
Europe
and
the
world.
B
A
You
very
much,
as
you
know,
Minister.
This
committee
has
published
its
own
report
on
immigration
and
citizens
rights
and
after
taking
considerable
amount
of
evidence
earlier
in
the
year.
Some
of
the
evidence
that
we
took
certainly
reflects
what
you're
talking
about
in
terms
of
the
skills
gap
and
the
contribution
that
emigrants
make
to
society
and
and
another
rather
overarching
factor
a
challenge
facing
Scotland.
The
other
report
highlighted
was
the
the
difference
in
working
age,
population
and
and
older
people.
B
But
you
make
a
very
fair
point
and
in
fact
the
the
figures,
if
you
look
at
the
figures
over
the
next
25
years,
that
even
more
pronounced
the
the
expectation
is
that
over
the
next
25
years,
the
population
aged
over
75
will
increase
by
some
79
percent.
Now
fatness
is
a
serious
to
be
welcomed,
but
the
only
reason
that
we're
able
to
sustain
this
situation
is
faultless
by
by
increasing
the
number
of
people
of
working
age
who
are
in
our
society.
B
And
if
you
look
at
the
projections
for
what
would
happen
in
a
scenario
where
we
didn't
have
people
coming
from
other
countries
to
live
in
this
country
than
the
number
of
people
in
the
working
age
population
would
go
down
by
3%,
and
you
know
a
population
overall
would
flat.
So
we
have
an
aging
demographic
but
I.
Think
what's
distinctive
about
Scotland
situation.
Is
that
there's
much
much
more
pronounced
than
the
situation
for
the
rest
of
the
UK
over
the
next
few
years?
In
fact,
for
the
next
twenty
ten
years
and
over
the
next
25
years?
B
A
B
It
should
be
said
that
we
obviously
want
to
try
to
address
the
skills
gaps
that
are
in
the
Scottish
economy
by
scaling
people
up,
and
we
seek
to
do
that,
and
we
put
a
lot
of
effort
as
a
society
and
to
making
sure
that
educational
and
training
opportunities
are
there
and
that
jobs
are
being
felled.
But
we
have
relatively
high
employment
in
Scotland
relatively
low
unemployment.
That
is
not
a
huge
pool
of
people
who
can
step
into
the
places
of
jobs
which
are
currently
filled
by
migrants.
B
A
The
your
document
is
quite
substantial
in
a
contribution
to
the
UK
government's
evidence
gathering
through
the
migration
Advisory
Committee,
but
I
know
the
the
migration
advisory
committees
report
that
the
UK
government
has
asked
it
to
produce
is
not
going
to
be
coming
out
until
next
September,
but
as
we're
going
to
have
an
immigration
bill
published
long
before
that.
So
how,
realistically,
are
you
going
to
be
able
to
influence
UK
government
policy
if
the?
If
the
report
you're
contributing
to
doesn't
come
out
until
next
September?
Well.
B
On
the
issue
of
emigration,
it's
difficult
to
see
how
the
MACC
findings
will
influence
the
the
legislation,
UK
government
level
and
question,
but
we
do
seek
as
a
Scottish
government
to
influence,
not
just
through
the
MSE
but
through
through
other
routes,
as
well
and
through
the
joint
ministerial
committees
that
exists
between
the
devolved
administrations
and
the
UK
when
they
meet,
and
we
do
seek
to
influence
the
UK
government
both
privately
and
publicly
about
what
we
have
as
real
concerns.
They're,
not
merely
political
points.
They
are
real.
A
Despite
you
know,
cross-party
consensus
asking
for
the
return
of
the
post
study,
what
we
saw
as
one
of
the
most
probably
the
only
kind
of
significant
example
of
Scotland
having
differentiation
and
these
areas
I
mean
given
that
say
behavior
in
the
past.
How
likely
is
it
that
you
can
bring
pressure
to
beer
for
a
differentiated
system
in
Scotland?
Well,.
B
The
example
you
point
to
there
with
the
post
study
what
Pisa
I,
don't
think
I've
ever
seen
anything
that
has
attracted
quite
so
much
consensus
in
Scotland
things.
Do
it
generally
attract
consensus
in
Scotland,
and
but
you
had
the
whole
University
sector,
you
had
the
whole
business
sector,
private
and
public,
the
political
waddled
across
the
political
spectrum,
all
seeing
the
same
thing
and
I'm
sorry
to
see.
B
What
in
Scotland
and
therefore
is
disappointing
that
that
that
argument
has
so
far
not
been
heated
with
them
within
the
UK
government,
but
I
do
nonetheless,
despite
that
list
of
criticisms
of
the
UK
government,
want
to
try
and
find
common
ground
within
this
Parliament.
They
continued
to
meet
the
argument
and
a
positive
we
for
these
things
to
happen
and
the
rule
the
committee
in
doing
that
is
very
our.
A
Committee
took
evidence
from
the
Quebec
government
on
how
a
differentiated
immigration
system
can
work
perfectly
well
and
from
with
regional
governments
or
sub-national
governments,
and
there
are
examples
of
that
ales
fierce
it's
just
in
Switzerland
that
we've
examined
em.
Is
that
something
that
say,
you
think
is
possible
to
achieve
I.
Think.
B
It's
eminently
possible
to
achieve,
and
father
glad
see
it's
necessary
to
achieve
it.
For
the
reasons
I've
given
to
do
without
demography
and
economy,
it
is
necessary
that
we
find
a
solution.
That's
tailored
to
Scotland's
needs
know
that
the
example.
The
examples
you
caught
are
rightly
examples.
We
are
stubs
a
sub
state
level
that
is
a
degree
of
flexibility
on
immigration
policy,
they're
all
very
different
immigration
policies
that
should
be
seen.
B
Australia
has
a
very
different
kind
of
migration
policy
to
that
and
Canada
after
that,
the
Switzerland,
but
they
all
share
the
principle,
which
is
that
there
is
a
political
will
to
allow
these
things
to
happen.
A
sub
state
level
and
all
of
us
missing,
like
I'm,
going
off
at
a
tangent
that
the
fact
that
the
Yuki
government
is
is
no
ceding
certain
arguments
about
how
the
post
breaks
at
waddle
might
work
in
Northern
Ireland.
B
The
fact
that
we're
even
talking
about
Northern,
Ireland
and
a
new
way
in
this
context
shows
that
where
there
is
a
will,
it
can
be
done
and
it
can
be
done
quite
successfully
and
I
really
don't
understand
the
argument
that
it
couldn't
be
done
successfully
within
the
United
Kingdom
and
with
regards
to
Scotland.
Thank.
C
B
Well,
I
will
unavoidably
have
to
give
some
political
answers
to
that
then
that
question
at
the
moment
they
seem
to
simply
be
of
the
view
that
immigration
policy
is
is
indivisible
for
for
political
or
doctrinal
reasons,
and
I
would
like
to
think
that
at
some
point
they
will
listen
to
reason
unless,
certainly
that
they
will
listen
to
the
the
broader
view
that
the
consensus
view
in
the
Scottish
Parliament.
We
need
to
do
something
else,
but
you
would
have
to
ask
them,
but
they
have
not
been
well
interviewed.
C
Okay,
well,
clearly
is
what
unity
in
Scotland
and
I
noticed.
Even
after
darling,
the
head
of
the
new
campaign
and
2014
referendum
indicates,
you
know,
supports
some
kind
of
differentiated
policy
in
Scotland
Fleming,
so
hopefully,
and
that
unity
will
continue
and
have
an
impact
and
new
key
government
I've
got
a
couple
of
cases.
C
In
the
last
few
weeks,
where
a
hair
that
Catholic
a
woman
from
Canada,
it
was
working
in
a
school
in
for
us
and
then,
of
course,
she
wasn't
able
to
get
the
visa
yes
or
two
dates,
and
she
had
to
leave
that
post
and
there's
a
lot
publicity
ruined
that
case.
Even
though
she's
married
to
Scott
I've
got
another
case.
C
So
we
have
the
situation
the
muddy.
To
get
one
example,
one
part
of
Scotland,
where
the
demographic
challenge
is
even
more
challenging
that
than
the
Scottish
national
challenge,
because
the
number
of
pensionable
age
pupils
set
to
increase
by
33
percent
over
next
25
years
with
the
working
age
population
condone,
we
have
young
people
wanting
to
live
and
work
in
muddy
and
other
parts
of
Scotland's
F
Phil
Tippett
econ
posts
was
a
kind
of
shortage,
and
yet
we
can't
get
them
the
visas
to
work
in
this
country.
C
B
We
certainly
do
try
to
highlight
some
of
these
cases
in
our
apps.
We
give
you
with
the
concerns
that
you're
voicing
more
generally
every
that
and
I
think
that
one
of
the
one
of
the
problems
in
all
of
us
and
if
I
can
speak
more
generally,
to
begin
with,
rather
than
limit
education
specifically,
is
that
the
target
that
the
Yuki
government
for
many
years
has
set
itself
I,
don't
reducing
net
migration
or
migration
to
the
tens
of
thousands,
is
I.
B
Think
having
a
completely
distorting
effect
on
on
every
aspect
of
migration
policy
then
becomes
a
sleeve
to
this
target
and
regardless
of
the
merits
of
individual
cases,
regardless
of
the
merits
of
individual
sectors,
everything
becomes
a
sleeve
to
this
target
and
it
should
be
seed
that
if
we
stick
for
this
target,
the
demographics
for
Scotland
become
quite
frightening.
That's
before
we
even
consider
the
possibility
of
actual
you
know,
theoretical
know
in
what
migration,
even
if
we
stick
to
that
target
the
prospects
for
Scotland
become
acquaintance
and
for
education.
B
You
have
quite
rate
to
see
that
in
some
parts
of
Scotland
and
particular-
and
that
is
a
real
issue
and
Marie
is
one
of
those
we
want
to
see
teachers
from
other
countries,
making
the
homes
and
their
careers
and
their
jobs,
and
in
Scotland
we
do
seek
to
help
that
we
can
and
that
we
don't
have
any
power
over
the
individual
cases
when
it
comes
to
the
the
authorities
in
the
UK.
But
we
do
seek
to
these
of
cases
and
I'm
very
happy
to
raise
them
again.
C
My
final
question
is
the
statistics
you've
outlined
in
relation
to
demographic
challenge.
As
a
country
are
I
watering
and
I
wonder
what
more
the
Scottish
government
can
do
to
convey
to
the
people
of
Scotland.
Just
how
big
this
challenges,
because
clearly
it's
a
statistical
based
argument
from,
therefore,
because
it
releases
sistex
it's
quite
difficult
to
to
it
really
earnest
and
therefore
I
wonder
if
the
government
could
go
B
and
maybe
just
think
of
more
ways
in
which
we
can
really
publicize
a
demographic
challenge
and
fees
in
this
country
and
the
implications
for
our
future.
B
You're
right
to
see
that
it's
going
to
be
a
bit
more
than
sophistic,
it's
got
to
be
kind
of
hearts
and
minds.
Argument
will
have
to
be
made
over
this
I
think
there
is
a
broader
understanding
than
some
things
has
given
cleared
it
for
it
and
the
media
and
Scotland
the
boot.
What
this
problem
is
but
finances.
B
We
are
doing
our
best
to
work
with
the
UK
government
to
find
solutions,
but
it
must
be
seen
that
everything
I
and
other
ministers
engage
with
people
whether
they
are
in
the
health
service
or
other
sectors
from
other
European
countries.
They
have
had
real
concerns
over
the
last
year
and
war.
It
is
very
difficult
to
make
financial
plans
for
yourself
or
your
family.
It
is
very
difficult
to
make
plans
for
a
mortgage.
It
is
very
difficult
to
make
plans
for
the
business
when
there
is
so
much
uncertainty
surrounding
you.
D
Would
you
say
that
Scotland's
needs
are
not
so
different
from
the
rest
of
the
UK
that
would
justify
devolving
control
over
immigration
and
also
if
we
look
at
the
needs
of
soft
fruit
producers
in
angus
and
cherry
growers
in
Herefordshire,
do
you
not
believe
that
they
have
the
same
requirement
for
seasonal
migrant
labor,
and
would
you
agree
that
Scotland's
needs
were
almost
identical
to
the
rest
of
the
UK's
needs?
Firstly,.
B
No
I
wouldn't
agree
either
needs
are
identical
to
the
rest
of
the
UK.
For
the
reasons
I've
been
trying
to
say,
though,
which
is
that
demographically,
our
situation
is
twice
as
extreme
as
the
situation
in
the
rest
of
the
UK.
So
no
I,
don't
agree
with
that
point.
On
the
question
of
whether
soft
fruit
growers
have
the
same
Workforce
Planning
issues
a
with
an
Angus
of
hariphunchai
I'm,
not
disputing
that
the
niche
of
the
business
is
similar.
B
D
And
another
question
of
what
to
ask
is
about
the
migration
Advisory
Committee,
and
am
I
right
in
saying
that
that
this
committee
provides
independent
advice
to
ministers
on
the
skills
that
should
be
included
on
the
UK's
shortage
occupation
list?
The
migration
Advisory
Committee
also
reviews
the
list
after
consulting
Scottish
employers,
and
there
is
a
separate
list
of
job
titles
and
occupations
for
Scotland
and
that
allows
employers
to
recruit
migrants
into
jobs
officially
in
shortage,
without
the
need
first
to
conduct
a
resident
labour
market
test.
B
And
when,
for
instance,
the
the
MACC
opened
its
consultation
on
this,
it
was
very
difficult
to
get
information
from
them.
Numerous
meetings
that
were
offered
with
ministers
and
others
well
reneged
on.
However,
we
do
seek
to
at
a
couple
of
level-
I
should
say
not
at
committee
level,
but
we
do
nonetheless
engage
with
them.
We
do
prepare
for
what
evidence,
and
yes,
it's
true
to
say
that
the
West's
are
broadly
similar,
but
we
have
put
forward
our
own
ideas
on
different
sectors
and
we
do
see
gentleness
at
where
we
can.
B
But
the
problem
is
that
this
is
a
workforce,
wide
issue
and
without
returning
and
laboring
the
whole
point
about
the
benefits
in
the
freedom
of
movement.
We
cannot
really
solve
this
problem
in
Scotland
by
by
purely
looking
at
that
on
a
sector-by-sector
basis.
There
is
a
need
for
a
much
wider
openness
to
people
from
other
countries
living
here
or
a
demographic
problem
is
not
going
to
dissolve.
Thank.
A
You
thank
you
just
in
the
supplementary
to
that
question.
Vigil
Hamilton
I
noted
that
cause
law
who
contributed
evidence
to
my
teacher
search
explained
that
it
had
been
engaging
with
M
EC
for
many
years
and
just
to
quote
them.
It
said
today
had
little
success
and
influencing
the
shortage
occupation
list
for
Scotland.
Well,.
B
There
are
frustrations
around
this
I
mean,
as
I
said.
You
pointed
yourself
the
one
of
the
major
frustrations,
which
is
that
without
any
disrespect
to
the
MEAC
itself,
it
is
clearly
unlikely
to
influence
the
big
decisions
that
are
going
to
be
made
by
the
UK
about
immigration
policy.
Given
the
time
skills
that
have
been
set
for
that,
and
one
of
the
the
others
is
the
one
you
point
to
which
is
it
is,
it
is
not.
B
It
is
far
from
simple
for
anybody
in
Scotland
far
far
less
the
Scottish
Government
to
have
our
any
direct
influence
upon
that
policy
at
all.
So
these
are
the
frustrations.
We
have
to
try
to
find
a
way
through
it
and
I
think
the
more
we
can
speak
with
one
voice
and
less
and
indicate
the
Scotland
there's
definite
interest
and
that
they
should
be
listened
to
the.
A
F
B
G
G
F
Thank
you,
I
am
also
in
evidence.
Another
point
from
unison
was
about
similar
to
that,
of
course,
I
was
influencing
changes
to
the
Scottish
occupation
list,
and
he
had
raised
an
issue
about
the
format
of
supporting
evidence
that
is
presented
to
the
mark,
and
apparently
it's
formatted
in
a
way
that
they
don't
find
acceptable
and
that
and
they'd
said
that
the
market
argued
that
I
find
it
difficult
to
get
evidence
about
shortages
in
Scotland
in
the
format
it
requires.
I
do
overcome
that
kind
of
issue.
B
G
Fine
and
I
think
I
experienced
and
we've
certainly
had
feedback
from
the
migration
Advisory
Committee
that
sometimes
a
bear.
They
are
taking
a
very
economic,
focused
approach
to
this,
and
they
are
looking
particularly
for
hard
evidence
at
a
sector
level.
I
think
the
evidence
that
we
published
yesterday
does
provide
a
lot
of
that
I
think
previously.
The
type
of
evidence
that
has
been
able
to
be
provided
and
has
maybe
been
softer
evidence
has
been
anecdotal
evidence
and
so
I
think
there.
G
B
I
think
it
would.
It
would
be
helpful
if
we
had
more
direct
representation
on
the
market
in
future.
I
think
it
would
also
be
helpful
much
as
it
is
useful
to
look
at
sector
by
sector
approaches.
I
think
it
is
important
to
look
at
nation
by
nation
or
region
by
region
approaches
as
well
and
I
think
that,
by
considering
in
a
way,
the
idea
of
the
political
to
beat
UK
level
seems
to
have
conceded
the
idea
of
different
approaches
on
emigration
for
different
sectors.
B
E
E
It
really
is
in
terms
of
that
cultural
exchange,
so
in
terms
of
the
what
the
government
have
actually
suggested
regarding
the
the
the
policy
area
and
to
the
Mike
I
have
important,
does
the
the
you
and
also
the
Scottish
governorship,
please
the
issue
of
international
students
actually
coming
coming
to
Scotland
boss
or
having
that
opportunity
to
contribute
to
discuss
a
corner
me
after
what?
If
they
have
the
chance
to
ste?
Well,.
B
I
think
I
think
is
right
to
point
both
to
the
economic
and
the
cultural
benefit.
The
the
economic
benefit
is
clear,
not
just
our
university
and
college
sector,
but
also
to
the
fact
that
many
of
these
people
bring
their
skills
and
are
willing
to
live
in
Scotland
after
lots
of
the
walk
in
Scotland
after
they
graduate.
B
Why
I
don't
think
the
figure
is
tremendously
helpful
and
for
migration
policy
as
it
affects
Scotland
more
generally,
but
I
would
like
to
think
that,
whatever
our
differences,
my
understanding
from
statements
from
all
the
parties
is
that
we
do.
You
agree
that
students
should
not
be
included
in
that
figure,
because
it
totally
distorts
our
understanding
of
migration
policy
and
distorts
an
understanding
of
the
benefits
that
students
from
a
lot
of
countries
blend
us
and.
E
B
Scottish
Government
will
be
more
than
happy
to
take
on
board
evidence
that
this
committee
has
produced.
This
committee
has
produced
some
substantial
people
around
the
issue
of
migration
policy
as
a
affect
Scotland
that
the
task
that
we
are
now
faced
with
is
to
imagine
what
a
distinctive
talents
differentiated
have,
whichever
what
you
want
to
use
solution
for
Scotland
would
actually
look
like
in
policy
terms.
B
We
are
not
in
a
position
I'm,
not
in
a
position
to
set
that
out
for
you
today
in
the
common
months,
however,
I
will
be
more
than
willing
to
come
back
to
this
committee
to
talk
about
our
proposals
as
they
develop
and
yes,
I
would
be
very
happy
indeed
to
take
on
board
any
views.
Any
recommendations
that
this
committee
has
in
that
area
already.
E
This
morning,
most
of
it
you've
touched
upon
an
issue
of
or
breaks
it,
and
certainly
this
Parliament
has
had
various
Yuki
ministers
come
to
the
to
various
committees.
To
answer
questions
regarding
know
especially
operator,
and
how
it's
going
to
affect
this
Parliament,
and
certainly
yesterday,
the
delegated
powers,
Law
Reform
Committee
hard
robbing
walk
at
MP
and
also
just
skip
naught
MP
come
to
give
evidence
both
are
officer
menaces
in
the
UK
government
and
the
this
is
all
on
the
record
and
they
were
extremely,
not
repetitive,
proper
to
show
know
what.
E
But
they
consistently
made
the
point
that
they
are
in
listening
mode.
I
wanted
to
come
to
scoff
and
to
talk
to,
and
also
to
listen
so
that
they
can
take
part,
take
back
issues
and
and
then
hopefully
make
some
changes,
no
way
that
you've
already
touched
upon
this
morning
night.
You
find
it
difficult
to
involve
the
UK
government.
E
I
shall
listen
to
the
recommendations
on
the
Scottish
government
know
how
how
you
much
of
a
challenge
as
a
Scottish
kabocha,
finding
that
with
the
UK
comment
for
them
to
consider
somewhere,
there's
a
differentiated
approach
for
Scotland
or
some
other
type
of
approach
in
terms
of
immigration
for
Scotland.
Well,.
B
Since,
since
the
exit
we've
tried
to
put
for
the
whole
series
of
compromise
proposals
and
there's
no
point
and
in
rehearsing
the
different
different
political
prospectus,
which
we'll
all
have
on
all
those
solutions,
but
the
point
is,
if
there's
been
no
simple
task-
the
joint
Ministerial
Committee,
there
are
two
one
on
European
negotiations
and
one
which
I
set
on
Europe.
You
know
one
didn't
set
for
I
thank
eight
months.
B
They
have
convened
by
the
UK
government.
I
should
say
we
are
working
to
try
and
make
these
these.
These
bodies
walk
so
that
we
do
try
to
exchange
ideas
that
we
do
try
to
to
work
with
each
other.
I
have
an
outstanding
meeting
request
with
the
UK
immigration
minister.
I
do
seek
to
make
sure
that
these
meetings
happen,
but
I
would
not
like
to
give
you
the
picture
that
the
UK
government
has,
in
the
past,
seen
its
rule
as
more
than
informing
us
of
what
it
is
doing.
I
mean.
E
B
I
would
welcome
any
kind
of
engagement.
I
wouldn't
say
that
the
joint
Ministerial
Committee
model
has
been
the
most
successful
attempt
ever
devised.
That
includes
the
devolved
administration's
and
in
the
workings
of
UK
policy.
I,
certainly
wouldn't
be
against
anything
that
that
tried
to
try
to
promote
that
conversation
so
I,
certainly
I
certainly
wouldn't
oppose
it
if
it
was
meaningful
effort
had
a
proper
Secretariat
if
it
had
proper
regular
meetings.
I
certainly
wouldn't
be
opposed
to
that.
Okay,.
A
H
Can
the
sectoral
issues
that
we
have
in
terms
of
attracting
ever
of
migration
and
phone
skill
shortages
have
been
covered,
but
obviously
these
issues,
the
demographic
issues
we
have
with
aging
populations,
are
quite
geographically
acute
as
well.
What
tools
does
the
Scottish
Government
currently
have?
What
tools
do
you
currently
employ
to
ensure
an
effective
geographic
dispersal
distribution
of
those
coming
in
at
don't
mean
to
use
language
that
makes
people
send
simply
right
units
of
labour,
but
there
is
obviously
a
need,
particularly
in
rural
areas.
The
recent
galway
and
protect
care
has
very
acute
needs.
H
B
I
think
you're
right
to
see
that
it's
a
very
attractive
people,
rather
than
moving
people
around
I,
think
I
think
we
have
one
view
on
that
and
I
present
the
Western
Isles
in
Parliament
and
I'm
very
conscious
both
of
the
fact
that
our
population
as
a
region
is
set
to
come
down
by
14
percent
for
the
next
25
years.
I'm.
B
Certain
types
of
agriculture,
as
we've
talked
about
are
very,
very
important,
and,
and
we
should,
we
should
make
sure
that
we
we
make
rural
Scot
attractive
and
to
people
who
are
coming
from
other
countries.
Perhaps
the
most
important
thing
we
can
do
overall,
however,
is
to
make
it
clear
again
and
again
and
again
to
people
that
they
are
welcome.
People
do
feel
welcome
and
that
communities,
particularly
in
rural
Scotland,
but
they
also
need
us
as
politicians,
to
repeat
that
message
over
and
over
again
and.
H
B
I
see
we're
going
to
come
forward
with
proposals
as
to
how
we
could
see
a
differentiated
solution,
working
and
very
open
to
looking
at
solutions
which
take
account
of
the
issues
you
mentioned
about
the
fact
that
different
parts
of
Scotland
have
very
different
needs.
So
that's
something
that
we
will
want
to
be
looking
at
and
including
in
in
that
exercise,
and
when
we
look
at
what
a
differentiated
immigration
policy
could
look
like.
B
So,
yes,
we
need
to
take
account
of
some
of
those
issues
when
we
do
that
in
terms
of
local
government,
local
government
have
on
a
completely
different
subject.
It
should
be
said,
but
but
local
government
have
a
thinking
Scotland,
showing
themself
to
be
very
helpful
and
very
positive,
and
that
contribution
towards
volunteering
to
to
provide
services
to
refugees,
which
is
a
completely
different
issue.
B
H
B
H
I
Thank
you
can
be
known
good
morning.
Minister
I
wanted
to
follow
up
on
a
couple
of
points
on
the
tier
2
shortage
occupation
list.
At
the
moment
there
are
two
additional
occupations
I
understand
for
Scotland
medical
practitioners
in
some
areas
and
physical
scientists.
Can
you
talk
us
through
any
plans?
The
Scottish
Government
has
to
propose
additional
shortage
occupations
specific
for
Scotland,
and
can
you
also
talk
us
through
the
process?
The
evidence,
the
analysis
you
do
to
identify
what
those
specific
areas
are
for
Scotland
well,.
B
We
have
done
some
studies
on
this,
but
I
mean,
for
instance,
when
I
was
in
when
I
was
a
thing
they
ed
in
the
Royal
and
funnily
yesterday.
The
message
that
came
across
loud
and
clear
of
the
year
was
that,
yes,
that
is
a
settlement
that
can
be
done
to
identify
new
sectors
or
additional
areas
of
work.
But
the
need
is
across
the
board.
For
instance,
I
was
in
the
medical
physics
department
that
the
hospital
yesterday
and
they
were
seeing
that
the
variety
of
specialisms
are
so
wide
and
the
specialisms
are
so
specialist.
B
B
I
B
We
have
our
wider
population
strategy
as
things
stand,
I'm
gonna
look
to
Rachel
to
see
what
the
most
recent
date
was
of
providing
like
the
Parliament,
but
we
certainly,
we
certainly
have
an
ongoing
population
policy
I'm
talking
about
it.
Just
now,
we've
provided
evidence
the
committee
and
we
we
have
also.
B
We
have
also
the
population
strategy
for
Scotland
and
the
National
performance
framework,
which
includes
a
target
to
match
our
population
growth
for
the
EU
15
average.
So
our
population
policy
is
essentially
built
around
the
EU
15
avalanche.
We
regularly
make
statements
and
a
comment
about
who
we
are
as
a
country
when
we
think
that,
as.
I
Part
of
that,
or
maybe
in
addition
to
that,
what
plans
you
have
in
place
to
promote
Scotland
as
a
destination
for
migrants
across
the
world,
obviously
beyond
the
European
Union,
and
are
there
particular
countries
that
you
would,
the
Scottish
government
would
be
looking
to
promote
Scotland
as
a
destination
within
those
countries?
Well,.
B
Obviously
particular
countries
I
say
the
EU
with
whom
we
have
a
strong
association,
whether
it's
historically
or
anything
else
and
for
instance,
it
was
noticeable
with
the
bush
study,
what
Pisa
the
changes
to
that
of
the
abolition
of
that
that
I
think
Nigeria
surprisingly
and
featured
as
a
as
a
country.
We
are
the
changes
that
were
made
to
the
the
post
study.
What
these
are
resulted
in
are
in
the
half,
hang
of
the
number
of
people
from
that
country
coming
at
the
study
and
perhaps
work
in
Scotland.
B
So
there
are
obviously
countries
with
which
we
have
a
particular
connection,
perhaps
more
obvious
ones
that
weep
domain
are
countries
with
which
we
have
familial
connections
in
Australia
and
Canada,
New,
Zealand
and
so
forth,
but
by
far
the
biggest
immediate
source
of
apart
from
within
the
UK
itself,
by
far
by
the
file,
the
biggest
source
of
of
new
people
coming
to
Scotland
is
from
the
European
Union.
Thank.
I
You
just
one
final
question:
you
mentioned
other
steps
that
might
be
taken
by
the
government
to
address
shortages
within
Scotland
and
looking
at
the
Scottish
workforce
and
availability
within
Scotland.
There
are
a
think:
730,000,
economically
inactive
people
in
Scotland
of
working
age.
Do
you
see
and
what
plans
do
you
have
to
possibly
look
at
bringing
those
people
into
the
workplace
to
address
workplace
shortages?
Well,.
B
I
think
I
might
be
wrong.
I
think
the
figure
of
course,
then
will
include
students.
For
instance,
it
will
include
people
who
are
also
include
people
who
are
ill,
so
I'm
not
sure
I
would
recognise
that
figure
completely,
although
I'm
happy
to
go
and
and
come
back
T
on
that,
but
what
I
would
see
is
that,
yes,
we
do
obviously
need
to
make
sure
that
people
are
what
clarity
we
do
need
to
make
sure
that
people
have
opportunities
to
be
trained
and
to
be
educated.
B
But
the
point
I've
been
emphasizing
I
hope
from
the
beginning
of
my
evidence
yesterday,
is
that,
if,
as
if
we
find
yourself
in
a
situation,
we
are,
we
didn't
have
a
system
in
place
for
European
Union
citizens
to
feel
welcome
and
feel
they
had
a
future
year.
We
would
not
be
able
to
make
up
the
shortfall
and
many
many
of
the
sectors
that
we
need
them
and
from
the
group
of
people
you're
talking
about
it
simply.
It
is
not
practical
to
do
that
in
the
time
available.
It.
H
B
I'm
only
a
Scottish
government
minister,
so
I
really
only
have
leaks
from
the
UK
government
to
go
on
I'm
afraid
on
that.
The
the
signs
so
far
are
obviously
not
entirely
positive,
but
at
the
moment
you
know
we
live
on
from
from
month-to-month
trying
to
get
information
about
what
the
what
is
being
proposed
for
existing
EU
citizens
and
also
for
incoming
ones.
But
we
really
have
nothing
more
to
go
on
than
the
Prime
Minister
has
indicated,
and
none
of
it
has
been
negotiated
with
the
eu27
in
any
satisfactory
conclusion.
A
One
of
the
things
that
particularly
concerns
and
many
people
that
have
engaged
with
the
committee
is
the
minimum
income
requirement
for
non
EE
family
members
in
the
UK
at
the
moment,
and
there
was
a
report
out
by
the
migration
Observatory
last
year
that
examined
this
issue,
and
it
knows
that
40%
of
British
citizens
employed
in
2015
didn't
meet
the
income
criteria
for
a
to
sponsor
a
family
member.
But
one
of
the
very
interesting
things
that
it
threw
up
is
the
gender
disparity
and
the
discrimination
against
women
in
this
area.
B
Think
it
doesn't
mean
if
it's
from
a
human
point
of
view,
I
mean
it
certainly
seems
like
a
very
crude
way
to
try
to
determine
the
future
of
European
citizens,
citizens
of
other
European
nations
seeking
to
come
to
our
country
in
the
future.
It
does
appear
to
discriminate,
as
you
see,
against
women
and
also
discriminates,
should
be
seen
against
some
of
the
very
groups,
some
of
the
very
sectors
where
people
are
working
and
doing
a
valuable
job
and
Scotland.
There
are
some
sectors.
We've
mentioned
some
sectors
like
agriculture
and
fish
processing.
B
We
are
I'm
quite
sure
that
if
the
non-european
rules
would
apply
to
EU
citizens
and
EU
citizens,
new
EU
citizens
on
new
applicants
for
entry
into
the
UK
we'd
find
themselves
fall
and
fall
of
that.
So
at
the
human
level
it
doesn't
seem
to
be
very
sensible
to
apply
those
rules
to
EU
citizens
and
an
economic
one
that
doesn't
seem
very
sensible
either.
A
And
finally,
amis
Sunderland
mentioned
the
Camp
Hill
community,
but
she's,
if
you
don't
mind
that
one
to
raise
that
as
a
constituency
issues
I
have
a
camp
Hill
community
in
the
south
of
Scotland
base
that
walk
Arthur,
whom
I
visited
on
Friday,
and
they
wanted
me
to
visit
to
raise
the
issue
that
they're
concerned
about
which
is
their
volunteers.
And
so
basically
the
volunteers
come
from
Europe
because
they
follow
the
Rudolf
Steiner
approach
at
working
with
people
with
learning
disabilities,
and
it
was
an
absolutely
or
humbling
experience.
A
Many
people
had
lived
there
as
volunteers
for
20
years
and
contributing
and
supporting
people
and
a
very
familial
situation,
but
not
drawing
a
wage
and
because
they
don't
draw
a
wage,
they
wouldn't
fit
into
the
income
criteria
going
forward.
Is
there
anything
that
we
can
do
to
influence
the
UK
government
to
ensure
that
these
wonderful
communities
that
do
so
much
to
help
vulnerable
people
are
sustainable
in
future?
I?
Think.
B
Somebody
said
to
me
recently,
someone
from
Spain
said
to
me:
well,
I
can
prove
that
the
time
I
was
doing
paid,
walk.
How
and
after
I
prove
the
time
I
was
doing
voluntary
work.
Does
this
count
well?
Well?
Will
this
count
towards
my
settle
status
or
not
so
the
voluntary
sake
that
raises
all
sorts
of
questions,
and
it's
good
to
see
that
the
organisation's
represent
them?
The
voluntary
sector
and
Scotland
hobby
and
reason
was
very
publicly
the
Scottish
Government's
happy
to
do
so
too.
F
I'm
a
tree
on
that
point
as
well
I
mean
if
you
had
any
sort
of
same
day
from
the
UK
government
really
about
people
that
I
did
not
exact
position
and
people
here
I
mean
I.
Know
that,
though,
there's
lots
of
examples
of
people
who've
been
that
in
cash
in
hand,
employment
as
well
as
you
think,
you
know,
offers
the
same
the
same
issues.
So
do
you
have
any
sort
of
sense
of
where
the
thinking
is
on
that?
Nor.
B
B
There
may
be
one
in
the
post,
but
there
is
a
huge
wealth
of
detail
moment
that
is
missing
in
terms
of
the
question
of
how
people
prove
and
the
residents
and
prove
their
status
for
five
years
in
order
to
qualify
for
four
different
types
of
settle
status
in
the
future,
never
ever
lose
and
ultimately
the
fine
but
the
plot.
The
problem
is
the
longer
this
goes
on,
as
I
probably
don't
need
to
tell
you
the
more
uncomfortable
the
situation
becomes
unwittingly
put
them
people
in
that
situation.
Much
longer.
Thank.
H
B
I
mean
some
I
well,
as
you
can
probably
guess
call
upon
help
for
that.
One,
but
I
think
if
I
mean
I
think
that
we
do
have
qualitative
information
about
the
situation
in
in
rural
Scott,
which
is
definitely
in
a
number
of
ways
and,
for
instance,
employment
levels
of
deceptively
high
in
Moodle.
The
ideas
as
you'll
be
aware,
because
young
people
who
don't
have
jobs,
simply
move
out
of
the
areas,
and
it
doesn't
take
away
from
the
fact
that
that
is
often
an
economic
problem
that
has
often
a
major
skills
shortage.
B
J
Colleagues
have
done
some
work,
looking
at
the
agricultural
census
to
try
and
make
an
estimate
of
seasonal
workers
number
seasonal,
and
we
are
thinking
it's
something
about
22,000
between
15
and
20
mm,
but
it's
obviously
very
difficult,
because
seasonal
workers
are
very
mobile
as
well
as
so
they're
following
the
work,
but
we
we
have
commissioned.
We
have
commissioned
research,
which
is
actually
looking
in
greater
detail
specifically
at
seasonal
agricultural
workers,
and
we're
expecting
an
interim
report
from
that
next
month.
A
Just
to
finish
off-
and
we
talked
earlier
about
the
system
for
Scotland
now-
we
know
that
the
system
for
90
year
and
my
concern
at
the
moment
is
its
own
experience.
This
is
very
complex,
so
it's
been
this
as
a
mess.
Pease
lies
and
how
could
you
ensure
that
any
differentiated
system
for
Scotland
works
better
for
businesses,
in
the
sense
that
it's
is
cheaper
and
it's
it's
less
complex,
cuz?
Clearly,
you
know
there
are
many
people
who
have
given
evidence
the
written
evidence
to
committee.
A
That
said,
they're
quite
open
and
they
understand
that
Scotland
is
particular
needs
and
they're
quite
open,
but
they
want
to
know
how
it's
going
to
work,
and
understandably
they
want
reassurance.
Is
that
it's
not
going
to
cost
them
more
money
if
their
businesses?
What
kind
of
reassurances
can
you
give
them
on
that
respect?
I?
Think.
B
There's
a
very
feel
and
understandable
questions
that
businesses
reason
ones
we
want
to
take
into
account
or
the
next
months
as
we
as
we
put
together.
Our
proposals
on
this
I
think
one
thing
that's
becoming
clear
is
that
there
is
a
movement
perhaps
towards
even
aside
from
any
new
policy.
There
is
a
movement
within
the
U
key
towards
businesses
and
a
saint's
becoming
having
more
of
a
rule
as
gatekeepers
in
a
way
around
the
immigration
system
than
they
used
to
have.
B
We
need
to
take
account
of
the
fact
that
businesses
may
have
concerns
about
the
what
clawed
around
that,
but
it
does
perhaps
also
provide
us
with
with
opportunities
and
that
I
think
will
what
comes
some
of
the
arguments
that
have
been
thrown
in
the
past
that
the
idea
of
regional
immigration
policies,
because
it
makes
clear
that
this
isn't
particularly
about
monitoring
people
on
some
state
borders.
This
is
about
ensuring
that
businesses
can
can
have
the
workforce
that
they
need
and
that
we
can
devise
a
policy
which
ensures
that
they
have.
B
Inevitably,
any
system
could
be
more
complicated,
but
how
not
inevitable
it
could
end
up
more
complicated
and
we
want
to
devise
a
policy
that
ensures
that
we
we
avoid
that
situation,
that
we
we
have
a
policy,
that's
informed
not
just
by
the
needs
of
individual
workers
but
by
businesses
themselves.
Thank.
D
On
that,
I
find
me
and
I
know
that
some
of
industries
had
expressed
concerns
about
the
financial
implications
and
I
wondered
if
you
were
actually
planning
to
do
some
financial
modeling
around
devolving
him.
Immigration,
particularly
for
small
businesses.
I
know
that
the
Federation
of
small
business
had
expressed
concern,
and
particularly
those
small
businesses
without
an
HR
department,
and
also
the
implications
that
it
would
have
on
local
authorities
as
well.
Well,.
B
Certainly,
we
would
want
to
take
into
account
any
concerns
that
were
brought
to
us
about
that
about
that,
but
it
should
be
said
that
businesses,
including
small
businesses,
and
indeed
the
housing
sector,
already
have
a
rule
in
monitor.
They
are
dealing
with
some
of
these
questions
as
it
is
so.
Yes,
we
would
want
to
take
into
account
any
concerns
that
people
hard,
but
the
biggest
concern
that
is
being
brought
to
us
by
the
business
world
in
this
area.
Isn't
about
that?