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A
Well
good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
seventh
meeting
of
the
economy,
energy
and
Fair
Work
committee
for
2019
may
I
ask
everyone
in
the
public
gallery
to
turn
off
any
electrical
devices
that
might
interfere
with
proceedings
and
the
first
item
on
the
agenda
is
a
decision
by
the
committee
to
take
items
nine
and
ten
and
private.
Are
we
agreed?
A
Yes,
thank
you
and
I
now
turn
to
subordinate
legislation
before
the
committee,
which
is
the
insolvency
EU
exit,
Scotland
amendment
regulations,
2019
and
I'd
welcome
Jamie
Hepburn,
the
Minister
for
business,
fair
work
and
skills
and
Alex
Reid
David
far
and
Victoria
Morton,
who
are
here
with
him.
I
didn't
like
the
Minister
to
make
a
one
minute
opening
statement
on
the
instrument
before
inviting
questions
from
members
Minister.
B
Do
my
level
best
to
make
it
more
than
one
minute
it
can
be
not,
but
there
can
I.
Thank
you
for
coming
here
today
to
move
these
draft
regulations
which
you're
considering
in
light
of
contingency
and
the
event
that
the
UK
were
to
leave
EU
without
a
deal
in
which
circumstances
the
UK
would
cease
to
have
its
insolvency
regime
automatically
recognized
under
the
provisions
of
the
EU
insolvency.
A
regulation
I
will
rehearse
Kevin
I
only
have
a
minute.
B
The
possession
of
the
Scottish
government
and,
in
terms
of
our
great
concern
about
a
new
deal
breakers
of
course,
necessary
to
plan
for
all
eventualities,
including
a
an
ordeal
outcome
and
ice
instrument
deals
with
the
situation.
That
would
be
it
created
by
that
oh
come
on
over
man,
I'll
leave
it.
That
can
be
enough.
A
Thank
you
very
much.
I'll
now
move
to
the
formal
debate
on
the
motion
to
approve
the
affirmative
instrument
and
I
would
invite
minister
to
formally
move
the
motion.
If
now
I
would
ask
members
if
they
wish
to
speak
in
the
debate
on
the
motion,
no
one
wishes
to
speak,
so
I
won't
fit
the
question
to
the
committee.
The
question
is
that
motion
s5m
one
five,
five
to
eight
they
agreed
to.
Are
we
all
agreed?
A
A
We'll
now
move
to
item
four
on
the
committee's
agenda
for
this
morning,
and
this
is
turning
to
our
inquiry
into
construction
and
Scotland's
economy
and
we're
joined
today
by
witnesses.
Robyn
Crawford,
chair
of
the
review
of
Scottish
public
sector
procurement
in
construction,
Gillian,
Cameron
program
manager,
supplier
development
program,
alan
wilson,
national
executive
officer,
sec
group,
Scotland
and
Jeanette
McIntyre,
managing
director
of
Indy
glass,
limited
so
good
morning.
Welcome
to
all
of
you
just
by
way
of
introduction
that
there's
no
need
to
press
any
buttons.
The
microphone
system
will
be
operated
by
the
sound
desk.
A
There's
no
need
to
feel
obliged
to
answer
every
single
question,
but
we'll
let
the
discussion
develop
as
at
where
and
you
may
come
in
on
one
and
not
the
other
question
and
so
forth,
and
also
I
would
ask
committee
members
to
keep
their
questions
short
and
perhaps
in
answering
as
well.
If
you
could
try
to
try
to
cover
the
points
you
think
are
important,
but
also
be
be
brief
in
doing
so.
So
if
I
might
and
start
with
an
opening
question,
you'll
probably
be-
or
at
least
some
of
you'll
be
familiar
with
the
2018
audit.
A
D
D
What
we
see
in
our
industry
and
the
specialists
in
contact
us
is
leap,
engagement,
passing
of
risk
delays
and
payment.
All
of
these
cause
issues
in
relation
to
construction
program
generally.
So
it's
an
endemic
issue,
unfortunately
cuts
across
almost
every
project
that
we
see
in
our
members
involved
them,
and
you.
A
Refer
to
projects
being
awarded
in
this
of
lowest
cost
and,
of
course,
the
procurement
regulations
don't
require
projects
always
to
be
awarded
to
the
lowest
bidder.
There
are
other
factors
that
a
public
body
can
take
into
account.
Do
you
feel
that
the
difficulty
is
that
they're,
looking
too
much
to
the
the
price,
and
not
enough
to
the
other
factors
that
they're
entitled
to
come
to
take
into
account
yeah.
D
I
think
there's
definitely
a
pressure
amongst
public
bodies
to
look
for
the
lowest
cost
option
and,
of
course,
what
happens
there
is
that
when
the
contract
is
awarded
to,
for
example,
a
tier
one
contractor,
who
often
is
a
management
contract
I'm,
not
an
actual
construction
company,
we
then
passed
the
risk
and
the
cost
savings
at
a
term.
That's
come
into
vogue
in
the
last
few
years
as
valued
engineering,
which
really
is
cost-cutting
and
another
series
of
watts,
and
all
that
happens
is
down
the
lane
of
that
chain.
D
The
costs
are
cut,
the
risk
is
passed
and
told
the
person
at
the
end,
most
to
lose
and
innovation
to
the
contract
going
wrong,
and
if
we
go
back
up
to
the
top,
we
have.
The
actual
work
is
procured.
More
often,
what
we
see
now
and
certainly
in
local
authorities,
is
you
have
a
per
curiam
team
setting
above
the
what
we
might
term
the
industry
professionals
in
terms
of
quantity,
surveyors
determining
what
and
how
contracts
are
actually
accepted.
I
think.
E
A
yes
that
short-termism
is
prevalent
and
what
are
perceived
to
be
construction
stage.
Savings
can
be
end
up
being
extremely
costly
to
the
organization
who
will
inherit
the
building
and
every
occupier
of
that
building
thereafter
for
its
life.
The
contractor
responsibilities
can
end
as
little
as
12
months
beyond
the
construction
of
the
building,
the
12
months.
Defects,
liability
period
and
what's
happening
in
is
the
risk,
is
being
cascaded
down
the
supply
chain
for
design
and
structure
and
fire
rating
and
compartment
ation.
F
Crawford,
yes,
him
I
think
what
is
slightly
depressing
is
that
these
issues
were
all
issues.
Every
single
one
of
them
which
were
raised
in
the
construction
of
the
review
report,
which
we
published
in
October
2013,
is
disappointing
that
six
years
on
him,
so
little
progress
has
been
made
in
tackling
a
number
of
these
issues
him
to
take
the
whole
of
life
costing
issue.
F
That
is
an
issue
which
has
in
fact
been
addressed,
but
the
Scottish
futures
trust
in
that
a
very
good
document
has
been
prepared
and
is
on
the
sft
website,
giving
details
as
to
how
to
carry
out
a
whole
of
life
cost.
By
that
we
mean
not
just
looking
at
the
initial
cost
of
the
building
or
al
infrastructure
project,
but
looking
at
in
the
costs
throughout
the
operation
of
that
piece
of
infrastructure
and,
of
course,
the
initial
cost
has
they
often
only
a
fraction
of
what
the
total
costs
will
be
in
operating
the
building.
F
The
disappointment
is
that
I
don't
think
that
that
tool
has
been
taken
up
to
any
great
extent
or
to
a
sufficient
extent,
by
public
authorities.
Looking
at
the
issue
of
a
risk
transfer
again,
that
was
one
of
the
key
recommendations
in
our
report
that
that
issue
should
be
addressed
and
in
looking
at
the
issue
of
M
the
race
to
the
bottom
and
lowest
cost
tendrils
M
being
the
ones
which
inevitably
intended
to
be
the
most
for
him.
G
Yes,
thank
you
very
much
convener,
thanks
for
coming
in
M
today,
I'm
just
wondering
why
it's
why
the
review
that
you
chaired
in
2013
hasn't
had
the
impact
you
anticipated
I
mean
I
noticed,
for
example,
that
some
of
the
recommendations
you
made
you
have
one
on
what's
called
pin,
share,
gained
share
this
at
all
interesting
terminology.
The
construction
industry,
you
say
has
a
background
of
confrontational
attitudes
between
client
and
contract,
and
you
talk
about
pain,
share,
gain,
share
arrangements
which
have
been
put
in
place
in
the
health
sector,
for
example,
but
now
elsewhere.
G
But
your
recommendation
on
this
is
specific.
Guidance
should
be
developed,
and
you
say
this
in
a
few
places.
Guidance
I
mean.
Would
that
be
one
reason
why
we
haven't
made
much
progress
because
guidance
which,
if
you've
mentioned
a
document,
is
useful,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day,
to
implement
any
recommendations
for
changes
in
practice.
You
need
laws
or
financial
penalties
or
contractual
obligations.
F
To
my
mind,
these
are
the
three
essentials
here
now
in
terms
of
the
guidance
in
a
lot
of
the
work
that
was
done
and
following
the
review
report
with
66
recommendations
in
the
review
report,
65
of
which
were
accepted
by
government,
one
was
neither
accepted
nor
rejected
that
was
kind
of
put
in
in
limbo
him.
A
great
deal
of
work
was
done
rigidly
following
the
report.
A
construction
review
development
group
was
formed
that
attended
a
number
of
the
meetings
of
the
report
author
and
most
of
the
large
public
authorities
involved
in
spending
attended.
F
That
group,
which
made
in
a
monthly
basis
and
tried
to
drive
progress
lots
of
documentation.
The
first
stage
that
was
seen
to
be
necessary
was
to
say:
what
should
you
do,
because
unless
you
tell
people
what
you
should
do
you
can't
really
expect
them
to
do
it.
So
a
lot
of
effort
has
gone
into
that
and
that
process
has
by
and
large,
been
quite
successful.
There
are
still
a
number
of
key
gaps,
but
we
know
do
have
a
construction
procurement
manual
and
the
Scottish
government
website
it's
incomplete.
F
There
are
further
bits
to
be
added
to
it
and
a
number
of
construction
in
procurement.
A
notices
have
been
published
which
give
guidance
in
a
number
of
the
key
areas
in
which
we
made
recommendations
so
that
a
part
was
making
good
progress,
but
it's
currently
under
resourced
a
lot
of
resourcing
was
put
in
at
the
beginning,
but
that
resourcing
has
gradually
been
whittled
back
and
I.
F
Don't
think
this
is
enough
resource
to
take
it
to
the
critical
next
stage
of
completion
and
digitizing
the
process
so
that
you
have
a
manual
which
is
readily
accessible
and
available
to
all
public
sector
bodies
involved
in
construction.
A
procurement
that's
stage
one
stage.
Two
is
the
skills
issue,
and
reference
has
already
been
made
by
others
in
the
panel
to
great
concerns
about
sufficient
skill
base
within
procuring
authorities.
F
And
the
third
issue
is
then
saying:
well
actually
our
people
with
the
correct
skills
being
deployed
and
are
we
following
the
guidance
him
that
has
sadly
not
really
got
off
the
ground
yet
and,
in
my
view,
until
you
actually
get
a
system
of
following
up
to
ensure
that
the
guidance
is
being
followed
and
that
proper
procedures
have
been
followed
in
construction
procurement.
It'll
be
very
difficult
to
address
a
number
of
the
issues
which
were
referred
to,
though
it
said.
H
There
has
been
steps
needs
to
address
the
lack
of
noise.
There
is
an
effect
in
the
public
sector
and
with
the
publication
of
the
procurement
manual,
but
it's
the
implementation
and
how
that's
they've
been
passed
out
to
their
various
people
that
should
be
reading
it
looking
at
it
and
then
acting
on
it
and
I
don't
have
as
much
construction
experience
as
my
colleagues
here,
our
program,
sports
old
Scottish
Amy's
in
Heights
changer,
but
construction
is
a
huge
area
and
and
a
number
of
suppliers
that
come
to
us
do
feel
that
they
don't
get.
H
G
Can
you
point
a
mr.
Crawford
to
any
procurement
projects
that
have
taken
place
in
the
last
few
years
that
have
effectively
reflected
the
improvements
that
you
were
seeking
in
2013?
Or
is
it
still
the
case,
as
you
say
that,
with
the
guidance
being
incomplete
and
a
skills
problem
that
was
still
quite
some
way
from
achieving
the
ambitions
that
you
set
out?
I.
F
We
sought
to
draw
upon
a
lot
of
the
examples
of
good
practice.
The
difficulty
is
in
rolling
it
out
across
all
the
public
sector
bodies
in
we
estimated
and
that
there
was
about
four
billion
of
spend
and
infrastructure
and
Scotland's
a
huge
sum
of
money
in
there.
Isn't
that
no
actual
a
guidance?
Nobody
is
pulling
that
figure
together.
F
So
we
had
to
estimate
that
figure
we
set
out
in
the
report,
how
we
did
that
him
and
the
problem,
therefore,
is
where
you
have
an
authority
that
is
responsible
for
a
major
procurement,
but
is
not
following
the
guidance
or
the
best
practice
that
we
have
recommended,
and
you
know
perhaps
as
very
under-resourced.
Reference
has
been
made
to
that
already
in
terms
of
procurement
capability,
and
then
him
goes
ahead
on
the
basis
of
well
we'll
muddle
through
with
what
we've
got
rather
than
saying,
I'm.
F
G
E
Add
that
some
of
the
best
examples
of
procurement
and
whole
life
building
analysis
that
I've
seen
recently
have
not
been
in
the
public
sector.
They
tend
to
be
buildings
like
Maggie
centers,
for
health
care,
which
very
very
key
drivers
in
terms
of
what
these
buildings
need
are
expected
to
deliver,
seem
to
come
seamlessly
straight
through
the
procurement
design,
engineer
and
construct,
and
lots
of
post
value.
Occupation'
survey's
are
done
to
see
how
the
building
performs
for
the
end-user
thereafter.
These
are
fantastic
examples
of
good
practice.
I.
D
D
G
I
As
models
of
procurement-
and
you
know
when
I
look
at
some
of
the
work-
that's
been
done
on
this-
we
look
at
hub
cows,
dominated
by
maybe
five
big
companies.
Those
five
big
companies
operate
at
tier
two
and
Tier
three,
so
you
know
the
relationship
could
be
deemed
to
be
quite
incestuous
and
four
of
the
five
are
headquartered
out
with
Scotland
I.
Also
don't
recognize
many
of
the
SMEs
involved
very
much
at
the
end
of
the
food
chain
as
being
local.
H
My
experience,
the
hub
courses,
certainly
hub
safe
waste
and
being
one
of
the
larger
ones
and
I,
do
feel
the
RFA
proactive
and
we're
actually
host
super
safe
violence.
Hurricane
so-and-so
worked
quite
closely
with
both
the
council
and
the
hub
cool
and,
if
set
of
initiatives,
build
lonex
sure
to
try
and
encourage
local
businesses
to
get
involved
in
the
supply
chain.
So
my
experience
from
that
and
the
spire
developer
experience
around
that
is,
they
are
being
proactive
to
do
that.
I
can't
really
comment
on
some
of
the
other
ones.
H
I
haven't
seen
that
a
maybe
that
I'm
not
close
enough
to
see
that,
but
certainly
I
think
there
always
is
a
challenge
where
you
have
a
large
infrastructure
projects
which
addresses
current
public
sector
is
going
to
always
look
for
that
larger
contractor
to
be
at
the
front
face
of
it,
and
but
there
is
steps
in
some
areas,
be
me
to
try
and
address
that
and
bring
the
smaller
contractors
into
the
supply
chain
and
but
I,
don't
think
I
don't
see
that
nationally
across
Scotland.
Ok,.
D
I
think
to
answer
your
question:
I
think
it
is
an
organization
which
micro
and
SME
businesses
find
difficult
to
break
into
if
they're,
not
part
of,
what's
already
established,
the
hub
cos
were
meant
to
become
centers
of
excellence,
and
there
are
some
evidence
that
perhaps
it's
happening
at
the
top
level.
But
from
our
perspective
we
find
from
our
members
that
they
may
see
a
barrier
for
entry
in
relation
to
to
bidding
for
work
in
these
particular
areas.
I
I
E
Case
the
endorsing
what
Gillian
said,
they're
by
far
helped
Southwest,
having
dealt
with
almost
all
of
the
hubs
now
I'm
in
my
scope
of
work,
perhaps
I've
West,
the
the
cascade
of
key
drivers.
There
is
very
clear,
perhaps
because
of
the
involvement
at
sheer
level
by
John
McClelland
and
the
others
who
drive
that
team.
We
are
very
engaged
with
them
and
they
tend
to
hold
a
maintain
more
responsibility
through
the
procurement
of
buildings
and
attend
meetings.
E
Whilst
the
tier
2
&,
3,
&,
4
contractors
are
being
appointed,
there
is
definite
evidence
of
more
engagement
with
local
employability,
supported
employment.
They
are
we
above
and
beyond
some
of
the
other
hubs
in
terms
of
that
type
of
engagement.
That
said,
they
still
minimize
the
tier
1
contractors
to
4
or
5.
As
you
see
not
all
of
these
are
based
in
Scotland.
E
Not
all
of
these
have
key
drivers,
the
local
employment,
and
we
can
still
evidence
even
on
these
projects,
where
I
think
the
the
the
current
contractors
on
hub
Southwest
are
Morgan,
sindelle
and
Construction,
who
are
Irish
owned
and
Morrison
construction.
We
will
still
experience
situations
where
the
the
specification
for
the
product
will
clearly
identify
the
properties
that
the
product
has
to
achieve
and
will
engage
with
the
main
contractor,
and
they
will
see
well
Jeannette.
E
I
So
we
lose
out
you
on
local
economic
benefit,
lose
big
time.
You
say
big
time
can.
Can
you
kind
of
try
and
unpack
that
because
I
think
it's
a
real
missed
opportunity
when
we're
spending
billions
of
pounds
in
construction,
not
to
kind
of
ensure
that
local
companies
get
get
a
slice
of
that
action?
You're.
E
Quite
right,
all
your
fears
are
realized
out
there.
Yes,
we're.
We
are
really
sacrificing
local
employment
skills,
training
development
by
not
keeping
control
of
procurement.
At
that
level,
for
example,
we
just
employed
North
Atlantic
shares
100
supported
placement,
we're
fully
engaged
at
the
moment.
I
have
more
than
eight
apprentices
at
various
different
levels.
E
None
of
these
statistics,
or
accreditations
of
you
like,
are
key
at
the
point
of
being
compared
with
a
man
and
a
van
and
an
account
with
Travis
Perkins,
who
happens
to
be
based
in
Blackpool
if
his
price
is
cheapest
at
certain
levels,
but
hub
Southwest,
there's
definitely
more
evidence
of
an
interest
in
that
level
than
any
other
area.
That's.
H
I've
done
great
work,
putting
the
sustainable
procurement
Jessie,
which
obviously
is
looking
at
look
or
economic
wealth,
building,
etc
and
I.
Think
at
the
high
level,
that's
put
into
place
into
contracts,
but
the
minute
you
kick
down
into
the
tier
ones,
it
gets
lost
and
you're
right.
This
is
Drive
to
almost
the
bottom
Lane
and
that's
where
the
smaller
businesses
that
may
be
investing
a
lot
to
do
good
to
take
on
the
apprentices
are
losing
out
and
again,
you
know:
that's
it's
leaking
into
other
parts
of
the
UK
as
opposed
to
staying
in
Scotland.
So.
H
But
I
think
it's
back
to
what
Robin
was
seeing
it's
about
that
implementation,
the
guidance
it
needs
to
go
further
to
help,
drive
that
and
then
that
would
result
and
people
say
well,
you
can't
just
some
words:
a
contract
and
price
going
down
the
supply
chain.
You
need
to
include
these
benefits
within
it.
I
do
think,
helps
those
wastes
have
tried.
I
mean
they're,
getting
the
pressure
from
the
local
authorities
there
to
do
that,
so
they
are
trying
to
do
it,
and
it's
going
some
of
the
way.
H
I
The
hub
codes
are
controlled
by
the
Scottish
Futures
Trust,
which
is
national.
So
so
you
know
there's
the
national
body.
You
would
expect
to
drive
all
of
this
good
practice
and
they're
not
doing
it
themselves,
so
we're
not
even
beginning
to
look
at
where
the
local
authorities
are
doing
it
or
health
boards.
I
I,
don't
think
that's
necessarily
helpful
to
some
of
the
objec
you've
outlined,
but
my
concern
is:
do
the
hub
hose
actually
lead
to
a
further
separation
between
local
authorities
and
contractors,
given
that
I
think
a
lot
of
the
expertise
that
Allan
Wilson
referred
to
earlier
on,
has
been
stripped
out
of
local
authorities
and
I
suspect
now
Ressa
hubs?
Is
this
a
good
thing
or
not?
Can
I
start
with
Alan
Wilson
is.
D
A
F
Hub
cause,
when
we
did
a
review,
were
really
pretty
much
other
infancy.
We
were
concerned
about
the
issue
of
SMEs
and
access,
and
we
support
all
five
hub
goals
about
this
issue
and
received
assurances
that
they
would
be
included
in
the
frameworks,
but
others
in
the
panel
have
spoken
to
the
current
experience
of
of
the
hub
cause
terms
of
frameworks.
Generally,
there
is
no
guidance
on
the
Scottish
Government
website
which
and
sets
out
in
the
importance
of
operating
frameworks
in
a
way
which
gives
proper
him
access
to
SMEs
to
the
frameworks,
not
him.
F
I
J
Like
to
explore
one
into
the
comments
of
the
panel's
been
making
and
I
think
perhaps
this
one
refers
to
something
that
Robin
Crawford
actually
said
in
connection
with
the
skills
that
are
available
within
local
authorities
and
I
think
the
comment
was
made
that
the
bigger
local
authorities
appeared
to
have
a
greater
quality
quantity
forever
of
skills
to
tackle
these
developments.
For
us,
by
implication,
the
smaller
ones
did
not
have
the
same
level
of
expertise.
F
One
of
the
pieces
of
evidence
which
we
certainly
were
made
privy
to
in
the
conduct
of
the
review,
was
that
there
had
been
a
winnowing
out
within
local
authorities
of
construction
expertise
within
procurement
teams.
Procurement
teams
were
quite
often
quite
well
resourced
in,
but
not
with
those
people
who
had
the
construction
specialism,
and
it
was
the
loss
of
a
diminution
of
that
expertise
within
local
authorities,
which
was
giving
rise
to
a
lot
of
the
issues
of
the
construction
procurement
by
local
authorities.
But.
J
F
Clearly,
the
bigger
authorities
have
more
resourcing
but
and
I
think,
even
in
some
of
the
bigger
authorities,
there
has
also
been
a
reduction
in
terms
of
the
skill
base,
which
is
why,
in
our
report,
we
emphasized
the
need
for
any
authority
and
we're
not
just
talking
about
local
authorities
here
and
because,
of
course,
there
very
many
public
bodies
involved
with
infrastructure
procurement.
But
any
public
body
involved
with
construction
procurement,
making
sure
that
it
does
in
fact
have
the
correct
skill
base
before
a
taking
part
in
that
procurement
and
if
it
doesn't
have
it
being.
F
Well,
what
it
does
mean
is
that
you're
not
getting
a
proper
brief
at
the
start,
you're,
not
ensuring
that
the
infrastructure
is
designed
led,
which
we
we
would
have
regard
following
our
review.
This
is
essential
components
that
then
you
get
a
proper
brief,
which
really
said.
So.
What
is
it
that
the
procuring
authority
is
seeking
to
achieve
met
mites
in
the
statement
of
the
blindingly
obvious,
but
it's
quite
often
the
case
that
that
has
not
been
properly
documented
at
the
outset.
So
you
need
a
proper
brief.
F
Then
you
need
to
look
at
the
design
and
ensure
that
you've
got
the
best
design
it
taking
account
of
pre
market
engagement.
Very
often,
and
many
authorities
have
been
very
nervous
about
pre
market
engagement
because
you've
got
to
get
it
right
in
order
not
invalidate
the
procurement,
but
but
nonetheless,
we
will
regard
it
as
an
essential
element
of
a
proper
procurement
having
pre
market
engagement,
so
that
you
can
understand
what
is
available
out
there
then
getting
the
design
right.
F
So
there
are
a
whole
series
of
processes:
I'm
not
go
through
the
entire
in
process,
but
it's
getting
all
of
these
steps
right
before
you
actually
place
the
procurement
and
then,
of
course,
in
the
procurement
itself,
giving
proper
cognizance
to
quality
and
whole
of
life
costing.
These
are
essential
elements
in
a
successful
and
in
an
ultimately
successful
in
build
project.
If.
J
You
look
at
the
other
side
of
the
coin.
Look
at
the
construction
industry
itself.
Do
they
have
the
skills
within
them
for
to
be
part
of
that
procurement
process,
in
other
words,
I
suppose
what
I'm
getting
at
is.
Is
it
similar
to
local
councils
that
are
bigger
resources
within
bigger
companies?
Therefore,
they
tend
to
be
favored,
as
opposed
to
smaller
companies
that
perhaps
struggle
a
little
bit
more
on
the
resource
level.
J
F
There's
no
doubt
that
a
lot
of
the
SMEs
have
funded
difficult
to
respond
to
a
many
of
the
procurement
requirements
of
the
public
sector,
but
training
has
been
put
in
place
to
address
some
of
these
issues
in
obviously,
it
varies
in
the
very
large
contractors
that
tier
ones
have
very
largely
become
project
management
organisations
and
very
many
of
the
actual
trade
skills
that
we
will
recognize
in
regard
as
part
of
building
in
the
electricians,
the
plumbers
and
so
forth
are
driven
down
to
tier
2
or
tier
3.
The
subcontractors.
J
F
A
there
are
a
lot
of
difficulties
in
that
in
that,
if
the
contract
has
been
placed
with
the
tier
1
and
it's
a
fairly
small
project,
you're
building
an
additional
costs,
whereas
Scottish
water,
for
example,
have
developed
a
system
whereby
they
try
to
be
more
specific
about
giving
the
work
to
the
body
that
will
actually
carry
it
out.
In
other
words,
addressing
this
issue.
J
F
The
big
boys
are
clearly
more
capable
of
in
meeting
the
procurement
tendering
requirements,
and
that
has
been
a
big
issue
for
SMEs
in
having
the
resources
to
compete
in
the
public
sector.
It's
very
easy,
if
you're,
a
very
large
tier
one,
to
have
all
the
resources
available
in
to
carry
out
the
procurement
exercise
and
to
and
put
in
the
bid
small
forth,
that's
much
harder
when
you're
an
SME
I
think
that's
been
one
of
the
big
issues.
H
As
well
resources,
a
public
bodies
have
substantially
reduced
as
well
and
I.
Think
if
they've
got
the
opportunity
to
maybe
do
with
one
large
firm,
as
opposed
to
maybe
10
or
12
small
firms,
it's
easier
and
the
resources
to
manage
that
and
again
there.
Some
areas
are
looking
at
step
to
that,
because
they
appreciate
about
how
they
wish
to
grow
the
local
economy
and
get
more
small
person
involved.
But
it's
definitely
an
issue
that
the
larger
companies
do
the
resources
to
bed.
H
The
tender
documents
can
be
quite
onerous,
the
risk
that
might
be
part
of
that
as
well
I
think
another
big
areas
like
the
accreditation
and
health
and
safety
and
some
of
the
smaller
businesses
when
they
wish
to
work
with
the
Tier
one
contractors
who
use
an
accreditation
scheme
and
different
tier
one
contractors
use
different
schemes.
So
if
you're
a
small
business,
you
may
have
to
sign
up
to
more
than
one
which
could
be
just
a
couple
hundred
quid,
but
you
might
be
dealing
with
maybe
two
or
three
different
schemes
shaft
to
sign
up
to.
H
If
you
want
to
work
with
that
organization,
so
again,
I
think
that's
a
barrier
for
small
businesses
to
get
more
involved
and
our
perception
as
well
from
some
of
the
small
businesses
I've
spoken
to
is
they
do
prefer
to
get
in
the
supply
chain
in
some
instances,
because
they
don't
have
that
a
process
of
having
to
go
through
attainder
and
all
the
documentation.
All
the
rest.
That
goes
with
that.
So
it
works
in
some
instances
and
other
entities.
It
doesn't
work
for
them.
D
You
know
point
that
Robin
made
a
bit
of
scottish
water,
and
quite
often
all
that
happens
is
that
that
risk,
as
I
said
earlier,
simply
passed
down
the
path
anyway,
so
whether
that
involved
at
the
start
or
mule
at
the
end
of
the
process,
the
tier
one
contractor,
as
has
been
acknowledged
nowadays,
a
management
contract
I'm,
not
an
actual
contractor,
is
there
to
manage
the
project
and
the
past
that
design.
They
pass
the
risk.
D
The
Parsee
issues
of
lis
and
delete
payment
retention
withheld
accept
all
the
way
down
the
line
to
the
businesses,
who
actually
do
the
work
and
I
think
if
there
was
more
engagement
with
these
firms
at
an
early
stage,
because
part
of
the
problem
in
construction
is-
and
you
know
this
building
is
perhaps
a
good
example
of
it-
you
have
a
building
considered
and
then,
when
people
look
at
it,
you
say
well,
we
want
to
change
this
now.
That's
a
natural
progression
and
anyone's
life.
D
We've
done
it
in
our
own
homes,
I'm
sure
you
get
that
contracted,
and
you
say
well,
instead
of
putting
this
theater
what
appear
over
there.
No
everyone
can
do
that,
but
there's
a
cost
and
the
course
then
construction
projects
often
results
as
a
result
of
the
change
in
design.
The
change
of
where
things
are
placed,
and
that
happens
at
elite
level,
know
if
there
was
early
engagement
with
the
specialist
contract
us
to
say
this
is
the
project.
This
is
where
we
want
to
engage
with
you.
You
give
us
your
expertise.
J
We
we
talk
about
risk
there
and
there's
been
an
issue
in
previous
panels
and
discussions
about
transfer
risk
within
within
the
private
sector.
Within
the
construction
industry,
there
there's
a
there's,
a
multiplicity
of
subcontractors
and
so
forth
involved.
It
is
the
question
of
risk
actually
properly
addressed
within
that,
or
does
it
get
confused
within
that
system.
F
Comment
on
this
risk
was
an
issue
which
came
up
a
lot
in
the
review
that
we
carried
out
and
the
concern
particularly
of
subcontractors.
That
risk
was
being
passed
down
the
chain
in
first
of
all,
that
the
public
authority
would
try
and
pass
the
risk
onto
the
sub
onto
the
main
contractor,
and
then
the
main
contractor
would
try
and
pass
it
down
the
line.
I
think
it's
already
been
said
that
quite
often,
then
the
risk
ends
up
with
the
party
least
able
to
bear
it.
F
There
was
a
need
for
a
very
much
better
understanding
of
the
allocation
of
risk
about
set
of
public
sector
contracts.
It
was
not
always
appropriate
for
the
public
sector
to
body
to
pass
as
much
risk
as
possible
on
to
the
main
contractor.
Now
that
might
seem
counterintuitive,
but
in
fact
a
sensible
grown-up,
in
addressing
of
the
issue
of
risk,
then
allows
it
to
be
priced
accordingly.
F
If
the
contractor
has
to
carry
a
huge
amount
of
risk
is
good
to
price
accordingly,
whereas
if
the
risk
can
be
more
reasonably
apportioned,
then
the
pricing
can
be
more
realistic.
Part
of
that,
of
course,
is
in
this
issue
of
Pinscher
danger,
which
has
been
referred
to
earlier,
and
some
of
these
types
of
contracts,
many
of
which
have
been
used
down
south
for
some
time
and
which
are
now
there
are
recommendations
on
Scottish
government
websites
as
to
how
to
use
these
pinch
again
share
contracts.
F
K
Very
couple
of
things,
but
I
just
want
you
to
go
back,
which
I
represent
an
area
that
has
some
very
remote
rural
communities.
Yet
they
still
require
public
projects
to
be
delivered.
Local
schools
and
hospitals
and
the
like,
particularly
in
the
northern
Isles,
where
I'm
from
so
I
was
just
going
to
just
to
confirm
I
mean:
do
you
think
those
contracts
are
being
delivered
by
large
commercial
companies
rather
than
perhaps
more
regional
operators?
E
Can
comment
on
that
and
that
I
am
actually
involved
in
supplying
all
the
internal
glass
screens
to
the
hospital
in
our
Keeney
at
the
moment,
engaged
through
Robertson
construction
and
their
main
office
in
central
region.
I
think
is
dealing
with
that
and
we
were
specified
through
the
design
process
by
the
lead
design
team
who
were
Cappy
design.
However,
even
that
experience
is
compromised
in
that
the
original
intent
from
the
health
board
for
that
building
and
that
they
wanted
to
achieve
something
quite
special
in
terms
of
they.
E
What
the
healing
powers
of
light
and
fresh
air
could
do,
and
which
is
something
that
we
probably
goes
back
to
Victorian
and
ages.
In
terms
of
appreciating
the
importance
of
fresh
air
and
delight
in
the
in
health
care
and
healing
has
been
sacrificed
at
the
construction
stage
due
to
perceived
cost
drivers
and
that
many
of
the
originally
intended
quite
sophisticated
and
highly
performing
glass
screens
have
come
out
of
that
building.
K
E
Probably
would
have
been
made
by
the
construction
company
which
it's
it's
an
exemplar
of
the
type
of
decisions
that
are
being
made
by
the
tier
1
contractor.
That
is
not
and
in
my
opinion,
in
the
interests
of
the
the
Health
Board
or
the
end
user
or
the
patient.
At
the
end
of
the
day,
there
there's
hospitals
that
and
healthcare
in
buildings
that
are
being
built.
That
are
better
examples
and
in
some
ways,
but
we
do
go
back
to
Florence
Nightingale
and
at
the
appreciation
of
the
importance
of
daylight
and
fresh
air
and.
L
E
Gone
all
the
way
back
to
these
values
and
they
the
very
recent
building
of
the
old
hospital
at
altar.
He,
where
these
were
key
drivers
that
were
appreciated
by
the
client,
appreciated
by
the
Health
Board
and
driven
all
the
way
through
the
process
and
not
sacrifice
to
any
point
in
the
delivery
of
the
building.
So.
E
K
And
just
just
also
very
quickly,
one
of
the
issues
raised
by
one
other
responding
was
that
they
argue
that
it
was
unfair
that
the
procurement
process
does
not
do
more
to
Ascenta
Faiz
the
direct
employment
of
apprentices,
and
I
just
wondering
where
the
national
procurement
kind
of
model
could
do
better
in
terms
of
encouraging
more
apprenticeships
or
more
training
and
skills.
As
part
of
that,
and
also
where
perhaps
the
barriers
are,
we
know
that
small
businesses
have
a
an
issue
in
accessing
or
can
have
an
issue
in
accessing
apprentices.
E
So,
for
example,
in
in
my
own
company,
I
have
no
option
but
to
bring
my
apprentice
through
a
very
traditional
carpentry
and
joinery
type
apprenticeship
and
on
completing
that
I
then
have
to
almost
start
again
from
scratch,
with
a
completely
different
discipline
of
training,
which
is
all
to
do
with
working
with
aluminium
and
glass,
because
there
is
no
apprenticeship
in
the
industry
that
would
give
the
apprentice
a
recognised
qualification
in
that
sector.
And
yet
we
internally
in
buildings,
this
being
a
good
exception.
E
E
But
these
treats
do
the
specialist
areas:
don't
exist
in
a
formalized
sqe
qualification,
so
we
are
engaging
with
CIT
P
skills,
development,
Scotland
and
and
some
other
bodies
to
try
to
address
that
the
problem
being
M.
There's
the
CIT.
We
are
limited
in
the
assistance
they
can
give
SMEs
with
training,
because
their
remit
is
to
cover
work
or
skills
that
are
actually
happening
on
building
sites.
They
cannot
cover
anything
to
do
with
pre,
manufacturing
or
development
of
products
coming
from
a
supplier.
K
D
Just
to
add
a
little
bit
further
to
that,
there's
a
requirement
and
procurement
contracts
to
look
at
what's
called
community
benefits,
and
it's
taken
in
the
industry
that
that
often
means
apprenticeships
and
I
think
it's
probably
fair
to
say
that
there's
been
a
pretty
poor
view
taken
by
procuring
authorities
about
how
Community
Benefit
should
operate.
You
know,
if
you
look
at
the
record
of
the
businesses
in
our
sector.
D
Predominantly
apprentices
are
recruited
by
micro
and
small
businesses
and
electrical,
and
you
see
we
have
recruit
approximately
a
thousand
apprentices
each
year.
Not
many
of
them
are
directly
related
to
the
community
benefit
aspect
of
that.
That's
a
hefty
investment
for
a
for
a
business,
probably
costs
in
the
region
of
about
fifteen
thousand
pounds
per
year
to
recruit
and
train
an
apprentice
with
little
given
back
to
the
business
after
and
certainly
in
the
first
year.
So
that's
a
direct
cost
to
these
businesses.
D
But
year
after
year,
these
micro
and
small
businesses
see
the
benefits
of
recruiting
apprentices
and
take
them
on
training
the
what
course
of
the
future.
So
these
businesses,
who
are
the
farthest,
end
off
risk
and
the
leave
payment
and
late
payment
are
taking
yet
another
level
of
pain
and
they're
in
their
mind,
quite
rightly
so,
because
they
are
actually
developing
their
business
but
to
develop,
see
taking
two
apprentices
there.
That
one
is
stymied
because
of
the
fact
that
the
procuring
process
is
stopped.
D
Getting
today
stopped
that
the
you
know,
delays
in
payment,
the
procuring
processes
themselves
are
not
conducive
to
engaging
and
developing
and
building
these
small
businesses
so
make
it
a
business
off
to
D.
If
I
think
an
electrical
industry
fes
one
of
our
largest
members,
250
plus
electricians,
thought
it
was
a
one-person
business
in
the
1960s.
A
I
just
clarify
before
we
move
on
to
further
questions,
I
mean
I,
don't
know
the
detail
of
the
the
contract
in
Orkney.
That
was
commented
on
I
mean
normally,
it
wouldn't
be
just
the
contractor
that
decides
to
alter
the
design,
but
that
would
be
a
decision
in
conjunction
with
the
design
team.
The
employer,
under
whatever
the
terms
of
the
contract
for
the
contractor,
are,
but
it
may
highlight
a
difficulty
because
a
bid
is
made
contract
awarded
on
a
certain
design,
a
certain
price
and
then
a
bit
further
down
the
loan.
A
The
road
sorry,
the
design
is
then
perhaps
for
want
of
a
better
expression,
dumbed
down
and
I'm.
Just
wondering
robin
crawford.
Is
that
something
that's
part
of
the
problem
in
terms
of
procurement
process
that
there's
not
enough
account
taken
of
the
realities
of
what
will
happen
under
a
contract,
so
a
company
can
bid
or
a
larger
company
can
bid
get
the
contract.
But
then,
ultimately,
what
is
going
to
happen
is
the
design
will
be
pared
down
because
of
costs,
whereas
other
companies
might
bid
on
a
basis
that
they
could
actually
deliver.
F
M
To
ask
a
question
about
productivity
and
innovation
in
the
sector.
The
committee's
heard
evidence
that
there
are
a
number
of
factors
having
a
negative
impact
on
productivity
and
innovation.
We've
heard
about
limited
investment
in
skills,
limited
adoption
of
technology
and
digital
platforms,
low
margins
in
the
sector,
so
I'd
like
to
get
your
views
on
what
what
is
holding
back
productivity
and
innovation
and
what
steps
could
be
taken
to
try
to
improve
levels
in
the
sector.
F
If
I
might
start,
I
mean
this
has
been
an
issue
since
area
reports
of
mine,
Eagan
and
let
them
focus
very
much
on
the
issue
of
innovation
within
the
construction
center,
which
remains
an
industry
wedded
to
boots
on
the
ground
in
muddy
sites
in
a
an
innovation
has
been
hard
to
achieve.
Let's
go
to
shoot
a
the
Scottish
funding,
Council
have
invested
in
the
construction,
Innovation,
Center
and
I
think
this
is
now
making
some
some
progress
in
terms
of
a
empowering
innovation
in
Scotland
or
looking
at
different
methods.
F
That
could
be
increase,
efficiency
and
a
lot
of
the
issues
in
terms
of
prefabrication,
particularly
in
the
housing
sector
and
a
social
housing,
with
some
very
good
in
pilot
schemes
in
Scotland,
where
a
innovative
methods
are
being
a
pioneered.
But
there
is
no
doubt
the
more
can
be
done,
and
particularly
on
the
issue
of
sustainability,
which
is
an
issue
that
we
refer
to
a
lot
in
our
report.
F
H
Sensor
is
a
great
opportunity,
but
there's
a
lack
of
awareness
about
it.
You
know
we
quite
often
refer
suppliers
to
seeing
you
there's
an
opportunity
here
and
it's
not
just
about
the
big
projects
they
can
go
in
and
guidance
and
smaller
things
as
well,
but
I
just
don't
think
the
you
know.
General
businesses
are
weird,
that's
good
support
them.
H
D
Yeah,
just
if
you
cannot
split
them
into
two
area
just
for
a
moment,
if
you
talk
about
productivity,
the
time
literally
taken
by
smaller
maker
businesses
to
prepare
beds
impact
hugely
on
these
businesses,
you
know
actually
preparing
beds
and
then
the
issue
of
Pearman.
You
know
one
of
our
members
told
us
recently
they
spend
on
average
twelve
weeks
of
their
life.
This
is
the
director
per
year
of
chasing
Pearman.
D
You
know
and
that's
a
proportion-
that's
probably
expanded
in
each
single
businesses,
so
they
are
using
the
productivity
in
the
wrong
ways:
they're
using
it
to
chase
money
and
deaths,
and
your
tension
sums
and
they're
using
it
to
formulate
bits.
You
know,
which
is
ultimately
might
not
even
be
successful.
If
we
look
at
innovation,
I
think
the
industry
is
is
better,
in
our
sake,
that
engineering
sector,
particularly
electrical
industry.
D
We
are
now
undertaking
sharing
our
electrical
vehicle
installation
charging
points,
battery
storage,
we've
done
training
in
relation
to
other
aspects
of
renewables,
solar,
PV
panels,
etc,
but
often
having
that
training
is
not
enough.
The
client
then
has
to
leave
that
through
the
tender,
and
some
local
authorities
are
quite
good
at
that
the
requirements
improve
minimum
numbers
of
installations
or
certain
things,
but
to
ask
a
tier
one
contractor
to
simply
say
well
in
our
design.
D
E
Thank
you.
I
currently
sit
on
the
governance
board
of
the
construction,
Scotland
Innovation,
Centre
and
I
in
my
short
journey
and
our
time
there
have
been
incredibly
encouraged
by
the
amount
of
SMEs
who
are
engaging
with
the
center
and
coming
up
with
all
kinds
of
advanced
technology
and
and
innovative
ideas
to
drive
either
productivity
or
greater
effectiveness
and
the
sector
that
they
are
in,
and
we
currently
have
two
products
which
are
going
through
the
center.
E
So
I'm
aware
of
the
costs
to
an
SME
of
that
type
of
engagement,
and
that's
certainly
an
area
where
we
should
look
to
assess
and
anyway
and
the
government
can,
because
it
is,
there
is
huge
potential.
They
are
not
only
to
invest
in
projects
for
Scotland
but
to
invest
in
companies
who
have
huge
potential
to
then
go
on
to
export
within
Britain
and
abroad.
E
E
Not
giving
any
trade
secrets
away,
and
but
this
is
an
example
of
a
product
that
we're
developing
for
in
introduction
into
schools
and
education
and
particularly
Early
Learning
Center's,
and
this
is
a
sophisticated
glass
product,
it's
safety,
glass
and
it
can
be
used
to
perform
for
acoustic,
sound
and
fire
internally,
but
we're
playing
around
with
all
sorts
of
graphic
applications
and
Inter
layers
within
laminations
of
glass
and
for
sort
of
high
visual
and
sensory
development.
In
these
early
learning,
centers
schools,
you
can
see
the
effect
of
what
happens
when
I
turn
the
class.
Alright.
E
Like
these,
but
this
is
an
example
of
something
that
we're
working
on
and
I've
been
told.
This
I
cannot
get
assistance
and
lots
of
even
engaging
with
Scottish
Enterprise.
There's
lots
of
parts
of
that
journey
that
there
are
significant
gaps
and
because
of
the
nature
of
the
the
types
of
things
that
can
be
supported
and
things
that
can't
there's
major
gaps.
That
I
would
be
expected
as
a
company
to
fund
myself
and
that
just
down
to
the
profit
levels
that
I
can
achieve
in
any
one
year.
M
E
C
D
To
be
honest
with,
you
is
a
cultural
change,
that's
required.
You
know.
Construction
industry
has
been
working
off
these
procurement
models
and
payment
models
and
questions
like
retention
for
a
hundred
plus
years
and
to
change.
That
means
a
significant
change
in
culture.
No,
that
is
the
carrot,
and
that
is
the
stick.
You
know
and
I
think
both
have
to
be
used
together.
You
know
I
think
that
is
an
example
of
project
and
I.
D
Think
what
can
be
made
to
highlight
that
to
the
industry,
and
certainly
I
would
suggest
that
the
government
should
be
taking
the
lead,
showing
leadership
and
using
that
as
an
example
for
all
of
the
projects
either
directly
fund.
That
would
be
a
step
in
the
right
direction
and,
and
hopefully
that
will
then
effectively
calculate
so
we
down
the
rest
of
the
contractual
and
construction
industry,
but
things
have
to
be
shortened
to
work,
and
that
was
a
was
an
example
of
where
it
did
work.
D
D
Think
you'll
be
useful
to
us
on
that
Ewan
and
and
I
think
we
all
have
to
be
engaged
on.
You
know
it's
not
just
the
it's,
not
just
your
sauce,
that's
the
industry
as
a
whole.
We
have
to
become
involved
in
that
and
give
these
more
information,
more
details,
more
examples,
and
we
all
have
different
ways
of
communicating
both
of
their
own
businesses,
members
and
the
traders
as
a
whole,
and
you
know
we
need
to
make
and
take
an
opportunity
doing
that.
C
In
terms
of
innovation
and
improved
productivity,
much
of
the
materials
that
are
used
on
Scottish
construction
sites
are
imported,
as
there
are
I
need
to
Belvin
two
frameworks
or
contracts,
a
standardization
of
product
that
can
be
used
on
materials
that
can
be
used
so
that
suppliers
can
become
more
efficient
and
build
more
productive
methods
of
manufacturing,
see
dual
handles
or
breaks
or
breeze
blocks,
or
whatever
happens
to
be
because
they
know
there
is
a
pipeline
of
projects
that
are
going
to
use
these
materials.
Would
that
be
beneficial.
H
Yes,
I
think
so,
and
some
of
the
work,
the
slides
of
Ellen
programs
done,
has
been
working
in
things.
Let's
set
it
to
you
so
when
that
was
first
announced,
and
we
worked
on
raising
awareness
about
what
such
as
you
was
about,
because
a
lot
of
small
suppliers
say
this
has
got
nothing
to
do
with
me.
All
the
big
contractors
going
to
get
involved
and
that
baby
was
about
opening
up
the
spriting
and
also
looking
how
they
were
doing
that
route
towards
it
and
I.
H
Think
it's
like
specification
again,
the
earlier
a
contractor
can
be
brought
in
or
a
small
business
can
be
brought
in
to
understand
what's
being
bought
and
it's
definitely
very
beneficial.
We
worked
on
a
program
with
Scottish
government
which
looked
at
Spain
data
to
understand
where
Spain
and
Scotland
was
going
and-
and
there
is
a
good
trial
that
we
did
the
looter
a
product
that
could
identify
where
Spain
was
coming
out
of
Scotland
and
that
could
be
drilled
down
by
local
authority
area
and,
and
it
was
really
interesting
to
see
how
that
could
may
be.
H
Beneficially
helped
Scotland
identify
what
suppliers
we've
got
because
I
think.
There's
a
challenge
there
as
well.
We
don't
always
know
or
the
procurer
doesn't
always
know
what
manufacturers
businesses
are
in
their
local
area
or
in
the
white
area.
They
could
actually
be
connecting
with
two
great
tender
on
and
the
bigger
companies
are
very
aware
that
they
have
all
the
systems
in
place.
They
can
find
out
about
these
opportunities.
They've
got
teams
of
people,
but
there
may
be
a
small
local
business
that
can
actually
deliver
your
door
handles.
But
how
do
you
know
about
them?
H
How
do
they
connect
with
you
and
we
recently
ran
an
event?
Miss
a
financial
council
which
was
a
meet
the
vo
buyer.
So
not
only
did
the
small
spires
come
in
to
meet
the
procures,
but
they
were
meeting
national
commissioners,
so
within
the
authority
that
should
people
that
were
specifying
and
buying
things
and
that
raised
awareness
of
what
businesses
were
there
locally
and
I
do
believe
that
market
awareness
is
really
important
and
how
the
public
said
to
find
out
and
engage
to
ensure
that
this
comes
back
to
the
sustainable
procurement
duty
as
well.
H
L
F
About
frameworks
thus
far
and,
of
course
in
the
development
of
specific
Scottish
frameworks,
him
does
it
contain
a
lot
of
data,
a
lot
of
potential
for
Scotland
him.
If
we
had
more
frameworks
available
in
Scotland
in
looking
at
Scottish
supply
chains,
m3
much
of
a
lot
of
advantages
in
terms
of
allowing
synergies
right
down
in
the
supply
chain,
companies
starting
to
work
together,
a
more
regular
basis
and
also
I
think
they
provide
the
opportunity
for
more
innovation,
because
companies
are
working
together
on
a
framework
and
perhaps
in
identifying
better
local
sourcing.
F
It's
clearly
very
much
better
if
you
can
locally
source,
not
just
from
the
standpoint
of
the
promotion
of
the
local
economy
in
the
sustainability,
particularly
of
remoten
rule
in
parts
of
the
economy
which
we've
regarded
in
our
report.
The
construction
sector
is
having
a
very
important
role
in
doing,
but
also
in
the
whole
area
of
getting
him
better
products
in
Cheaper
products,
because,
if
you're
using
local
source,
it
should
be
cheaper
than
bringing
stuff
from
a
long
distance
away.
C
Just
on
that
last
point
amino,
you
know
the
Scottish
Government
has
ambitious
climate
change.
Targets
should
be
be
building
and
to
procurement
frameworks
that
there
should
be
awaiting
given
to
the
carbon
cost
of
producing
and
transporting
products
decide
without
help
the
Scottish
manufacture
an
undersea
redundant.
Well.
F
F
O
Thanks
very
much
convener
aim,
I
think
we're
heading
now
to
watch
waiting
up
so
just
want
to
kind
of
give
you
all.
Maybe
a
final
question.
We're
focused
on
procurement
but
clearly
I
know
a
number
of
you're
quite
knowledgeable
about
the
wider
issues
facing
construction
as
well
as
that,
so
just
going
to
wanted,
maybe
to
go
through.
If
you
could
all
give
me
why
not
to
just
two
things
that
you
think
we
should
also
be
looking
at
I
mean
all
Briggs
is
the
obvious
one.
O
Is
that
having
an
impact
and
the
construction
sector
I
mean
we've
kind
of
touched
on
things
like
off-site
a
construction?
We
visited
some
of
us
an
off-site
construction
site
recently
and
we
were
told
that,
for
example,
one
council
will
give
planning
permission,
but
another
council
has
said
if
there's
gotta
be
real
bricks
or
not
accepting
off-site
construction
as
part
of
the
planning
process,
so
so
is
planning
an
issue.
I
realized
there's
a
whole
lot
of
things
in
there,
but
just
to
give
you
each
the
opportunity.
Let
me
start
with
mr.
Crawford.
Well.
F
A
exercise
itself
is
the
issue
of
quality
quality
of
build
we've
seen
a
number
of
examples
of
the
poor
quality
builds
in
a
where
significant
problems
with
a
building
have
have
resulted
and
I
think
there
needs
to
be
more
work
and
I
know
that
more
work
is
in
fact
being
done
in
studying
in
this
issue
of
quality
and
how
public
authorities
control
the
quality
during
the
build
phase
to
ensure
that
we
don't
have
a
lot
of
these
issues
arising
which
have
been
well
publicized
in
Scotland
in
in
recent
months.
Thank
you.
Miss
come
on.
H
Donald
I
can
comment
on
the
construction
service,
elephant
training
aspect.
I
think
there's
a
long
way
to
go
to
make
sure
the
ms/ms
of
chains,
especially
in
the
procurement
process,
and
a
lot
of
them
are
reversed,
even
gets
involved
in
because
I
think
it's
too
onerous
and
there's
no
doubt
that
there
is
a
state
to
go
through
and
there's
documentation
to
put
in,
but
I
think
once
they've
learned
that
skill
they
can
reuse
that
many
times
with
every
have
a
body.
H
So
there
is
a
benefit
to
that
and
we
are
constrained
by
the
resources
we
have
I
have
a
team
before
people
are
very
small
and
yet
they
cover
the
whole
of
Scotland
and
the
construction
centre.
You
know
we
were
in
their
view,
and
we
were
named
in
that,
but
we've
not
had
any
additional
funding
on
the
back
of
that
review
to
grow
and
do
more
with
the
sector,
which
we
would
like
to
do
so.
I
think
training
is
a
big
part
of
this
okay.
O
D
Can
I
finish
with
a
a
plea
for
the
committee
to
look
at
the
four
peas.
Those
peas
are
procurement
to
change
the
traditional
model,
which
is
not
working
payment
to
make
more
use
of
project
bank
accounts
and
to
protect
sums
of
attention
and
Trust
professionalism.
To
make
sure
this
is
back
to
Robyn's
point
quality.
It's
all
too
easy
for
businesses
to
enter
the
construction
industry.
There
is
really
no
limit
to
businesses
and
I
think
that
more
has
to
be
done
in
relation
to
that,
and
we
already
have
a
very
good
government
scheme.
D
There
proved
certified
of
construction
scheme
which
sets
them
criteria
for
businesses
and
individuals
and,
like
regards
so
I,
think
more
should
be
made
of
that
and
finally
policing
there
are
pieces
of
legislation
there
just
now
which
are
being
mandated.
The
procurement
reform
Act,
the
police
is
an
obligation
on
public
sector
bodies,
including
local
authorities,
to
check
to
see
where
payment
terms
are
being
pushed
down.
The
procurement
chain
down
to
tier
twos
and
threes.
We've
got
research
paper
in
front
of
it.
D
Just
now
suggest
that
only
25%
of
any
public
body
are
taking
any
action
in
relation
to
chase
angles,
so
I
think
where
there's
legislation
in
place
and
let's
make
sure
that
is
actually
policed
and
the
introduction
of
a
procurement
or
construction
regulator
in
my
opinion,
would
go
some
way
towards
that.
So
three.
O
E
A
A
Will
now
move
to
the
next
item
on
the
agenda
for
today,
which
is
item
number
5,
which
is
again
subordinate
legislation,
the
Nspire
EU
exit,
Scotland
amendment
regulations,
2019
our
welcome
Kate,
Forbes
Minister
for
public
finance
and
digital
economy,
and
also
shown
a
nickel
who
is
with
her
and
invited
Minister
to
make
an
opening
statement
of
two
minutes.
Thank.
P
You
convener
and
as
this
is
a
technical,
a
society
opportunity.
The
Nspire
regulations
implement
an
EU
directive
which
established
infrastructure
for
spatial
information,
because
member
states
are
required
to
operate
national
spatial
data
infrastructures
using
common
standards
that
make
spatial
data
easy
to
find
use
and
reuse
and
other
government
and
as
a
parliament.
Indeed,
we
want
to
make
decisions
and
have
policies
that
are
based
on
high-quality
data,
and
we
want
to
use
that
data
to
create
value
for
Scotland.
P
These
inspire
regulations
make
sure
that
there
is
a
national
spatial
data
infrastructure
that
uses
common
standards
and
that
there
is
therefore
consistency
and
our
understanding
is
that
the
Nspire
legislation
is
currently
functioning
well,
that
are
over
750
records
online
on
the
discovery
portal
and
those
standards
underpin
a
number
of
online
public
sector
services
such
as
Scot
las'
and
Scotland's
Environment
web.
There
are
business
impacts.
P
This
statutory
instrument
corrects
similar
deficiencies
and
I,
give
my
consent
with
the
parliaments,
approval
for
Scottish
matters
to
be
included
in
this
instrument.
The
UK
government
has
been
consulted
on
the
proposed
amendments
to
the
inspire
Scotland
regulations
2009
and
have
raised
no
concerns,
but
I'd
be
happy
to
take
any
questions
from
the
committee.
Thank.
G
P
Q
I
would
agree
with
Miss
Forbes.
There
I
mean
there's
only
one
slight
thing
I
can
point
to
which
was
there
were
changes
and
I'm
inspired
in
2012,
so
there
was
amendment
and
in
2012
exchanged
regulation
a
15
and
to
be
about
ensuring
compliance
rather
than
enforcement,
so
that
actually
changed
from
enforcement
to
ensuring
compliance.
I
think
came
about
in
the
2012
regulations.
Does
that
okay.
G
L
P
A
The
conveners,
of
course,
nothing
without
the
committee.
Mr.
Whiteman
any
further
questions
from
committee
members
and,
if
not
I'll,
move
to
the
formal
debate
on
the
motion
to
approve
the
affirmative
instrument
and
I
would
invite
the
minister
to
formally
move
the
motion.
Are
they
lift?
Does
any
member
wish
to
speak
in
the
debate
on
the
motion?
If
not
I
will
put
the
question.
The
question
is
that
the
motion
s
5,
m157
5,
will
be
agreed
to
are
we
all
agreed?
A
Yes,
thank
you
that
is
agreed
and,
in
light
of
the
timing,
I'll
invite
the
committee
again
to
agree
that
I
as
convener
in
the
Clark
should
produce
a
short
factual
report
of
the
committee's
decision
and
arranged
to
have
it
published,
or
we
agreed
with
that.
Yes,
thank
you
very
much.
Thank
you,
minister.
A
We
now
turn
to
item
seven
on
our
agenda
for
this
morning,
returning
to
our
construction,
construction
and
Scotland's
economy
inquiry
and
that
we
have
a
fresh
panel
of
witnesses
in
no
particular
order.
We
have
Fiona
Harper
director
of
BAC
skills,
limited
Ian,
Hughes
partnerships,
director,
Scotland
construction,
industry,
training,
board,
Fiona,
Stewart,
head
of
national
training
programs
for
skills
development,
Scotland,
professor
shawn
smith,
director
of
sustainable
construction
at
Napier,
University
and
Maureen
Douglas
HR
Director
for
the
Forrester
group.
So
welcome
to
all
five
of
you.
Thank
you
for
coming
in
this
morning
now.
R
Yes,
in
terms
of
the
lotto
statements,
limited
investment
and
skills,
something
misses
as
it's
interesting
in
terms
of
the
organisations
which
do
invest
within
construction
skills
and
at
the
present
time,
though,
it's
primarily
CITV
and
skills
development,
Scotland
colleagues,
from
government's
in
financial
terms,
we
invest
roughly
10%
of
our
three
hundred
and
fifty
million
pound
budgets
in
Scotland
within
skills,
and
we
have
the
largest
modern
apprenticeship,
training
investor
as
well
alongside
Scottish
government.
So
the
lack
of
investment
in
skills
really
leads
to
a
father
question:
does
that
has
that
created
a
skills
gap?
R
What
has
that
created
and
under
qualified
and
unskilled
workforce
and
I
think
in
terms
of
the
under
skilled
and
under
qualified
workforce?
Yes,
we
have
an
issue
in
Scotland.
We
have
by
far
the
largest
unqualified
what
forced
amongst
older
workers,
in
particular
across
gb.
So
there
are
certainly
areas
in
terms
of
investment
with
an
older
workforce.
We
would
like
to
have
a
closer
look
at
in
terms
of
our
authorities
moving
forwards
in
terms
of
a
fragmented
supply
chain.
I
think
you
probably
have
numerous
stories
to
date.
R
Other
in
procurement
are
in
the
relationship
between
Tier
one.
Two
threes
and
fours
so
I
think
in
terms
of
the
weather,
that's
fragmented
or
whether
that's
broken
I
would
defer
to
my
colleague
at
the
table
here
from
the
construction
sector
itself.
They've
has
more
first-hand
experience
of
what
that
actually
means
on
the
ground,
but
clearly
we
often
get
customers
saying
to
us
from
the
SME
and
micro
sectors
in
particular
that
they
are
being
squeezed
continually
in
terms
of
time
getting
paid
or
the
amounts
getting
paid
or
issues
of
retention
which
I'll
not
go
over.
R
A
Before
I
come
to
Maureen
Douglas
I
mean
do
you?
Do
you
think
that,
what's
being
done
is
enough
to
address
the
number
of
construction
workers
that
will
be
retiring
in
Scotland
over
the
next
decade,
estimated
at
30,000
and
the
other?
The
other
aspect
of
this
is
you
know
the
the
economy
comes
and
goes
as
it
where,
including
for
the
construction
sector,
is
there
something
that
can
be
done
to
feather
out
training
during
periods
of
downturn
so
that
we
then
have
skilled
workers
or
the
construction
workers?
We
need
when
there's
the
opportunity
I.
R
Think
30,000,
skilled
workers
retiring
is
one
part
of
the
picture:
the
charm
basically
of
new
entrants,
people
coming
into
industry
and
people
retiring.
Actually,
our
research,
which
was
carried
out
for
the
first
time
across
Scotland
regions
this
year
and
last
year.
She
was
that
certain
occupations
and
certain
geographies
will
suffer
more
than
others
over
the
next
three
four
five
years
and
I
can
talk
with
our
Father
during
today's
session,
but
certainly
in
terms
of
bringing
new
entrants
and
to
construction.
That
is
a
key
priority
in
order
to
identify
where
the
gaps
are.
R
People
talk
about
skills
gaps
being
created
as
a
glass
half-empty.
Today's
research
shows
that
our
six
thousand
job
opportunities
that
need
filling
in
Scotland
over
the
coming
years
across
various
occupations
and
various
geographies
part
of
our
job
as
a
training
body,
is
to
make
sure
that
the
pipeline
of
talent
coming
through
particularly
from
school,
but
not
exclusively
as
the
r8
pipeline
to
fill
these
job
opportunities
more.
S
You
there's
a
lot
of
points
in
there,
so
hopefully
I'll
cover
them
all
off,
just
a
little
context
and
I'm
promise
and
SME,
and
we
cover
Scotland.
We
directly
employ
150
employees
and
we
have
created
our
own
Skills
Academy,
an
apprenticeship
framework,
so
so
I'm
coming
with
the
SME
experience,
if
you
like
so
I'll
touch
on
your
original
question
Gordon.
S
Whilst
that
is
not
our
experience
in
terms
of
investments
in
skills,
that's
not
our
experience
of
the
sector.
I
do
recognize
the
comment,
meat
and
again
regarding
the
supply
chain,
as
an
industry,
I'm
I,
actually
don't
think
we
are
fragmented,
I
think
we
have
different
problems
and
we
can't
find
a
solution
collectively
to
those
problems.
So
the
t1
contractor
has
very
different
skills
challenge
to
the
SME.
S
So,
let's
just
and
think
about
whose
services
our
sector
90%
of
the
construction
industry,
RSM
ease
of
which
91
percent
are
micro
and
I-
think
it's
really
important
to
understand
that
when
we're
talking
about
how
to
address
the
the
skills
challenges.
So
the
perception
that
we
do
train
I
think
comes
from
the
the
feelings
of
frustration
that
we
don't
have
the
skills
at
the
time
that
we
need
them,
because
actually
construction
is
that
I
think
it's
the
most
popular
framework
for
apprenticeships.
We're
really
good
at
apprenticeships.
S
I
spend
a
lot
of
times
in
other
areas
of
the
UK,
and
everybody
looks
at
the
Scottish
model
and
the
construction
industry
and
the
pension
framework,
and
it's
phenomenal.
It
is
the
envy.
But
it
is
only
one
solution
and
I.
Think
the
opportunities
to
us
as
a
nation
is
to
build
on
that
good
work
that
we
do
around
the
craft
apprenticeships,
but
to
extend
that
beyond.
S
To
give
us
other
forms
of
apprenticeship
which
are
coming
through
now
through
the
foundation
apprenticeship
through
the
Graduate
apprenticeship
and
then,
as
Ian
touched
on,
create
pathways
that
allow
us
to
take
three-door,
professional
and
one
sector
transition
across
to
another.
So
then
we
can
deal
with
the
peaks
and
troughs
of
the
construction
industry,
which
is
you
know,
I
work
mainly
in
house
building,
but
either
building
lots
of
houses
or
a
recession.
Come
they
don't
build
any.
G
R
Yeah
I
think
in
terms
of
the
quality
of
applicants,
not
not
the
volumetrics.
We
still
have
substantial
number
of
applicants
for
vacancies
with
an
apprentice
judge,
for
example,
what
we're
hearing
from
the
customer
base
the
employer
is
that
the
quality
of
the
applicants
isn't
as
strong
as
it
would
have
been
in
the
past.
There
are
some
areas
and
thinking
about
Highlands
and
Islands,
and
particularly
by
the
volumetrics
the
numbers
are
down.
There
is
no
doubt
about
that.
R
I
think
in
terms
of
employers
struggling
to
get
the
right
quality
of
applicant
needs
to
be
addressed
within
education
and
for
their
education
system
as
well,
so
that
that's
these
evidence
we
are
getting
in
many
cases
that
the
volume
matrix
are
still
there
that
still
ensure
more
team
degree
and
apprenticeship
is
still
seen.
As
a
cherry
within
construction
for
a
young
person
in
particular,
but
we
have
just
not
seen
in
many
occupations
the
quality
of
applicants
coming
through
and
that
creates
that
percentage
gap
that
you
mentioned
I
know.
G
G
R
There's
a
seft:
basically
that
goes
through
that
employers,
any
employer
within
any
sector
wants
the
best
individuals
for
their
business
and
what
employers
are
telling
us
over
the
past
10
years,
they've
seen
a
don't
and
the
quality
of
the
applicants
coming
through
who
are
looking
for
an
apprenticeship.
So
the
challenge,
the
challenge
we
have
is
the
training
body
as
if
we
look
at
those
figures,
and
we
have
100
applicants
for
a
riffing
apprenticeship
and
one
gets
the
job.
R
The
challenge
for
me
is:
what
do
we
do
with
the
other
99
in
terms
of
keeping
them
interested
in
keeping
them
active
and
moving
into
construction?
So
they've
shown
an
interest
to
get
into
the
sector.
They
just
haven't
cross
the
line
in
terms
of
the
competitive
routes,
and
there,
however,
did
they
fall
off
a
cliff
edge
at
that
point,
or
is
there
something
we
can
do
to
spend
more
time
with
them?
R
What
closer
with
them
to
get
them
over
the
lane
with
another
company
or
the
same
company
that
that's
the
challenge
we
are
facing
in
terms
of
the
large
number
of
learners
within
the
system?
I
think
we
have
to
bear
in
mind
within
the
FE
set
to
the
loin
in
Scotland.
There
are
20,000
learners
studying
construction,
they
Fe
College
in
any
year,
2000
modern
apprentices.
Eighteen
thousand
other
layer
lives
that
cool
hot.
R
I
know
government's
looking
at
research:
they
identify
the
direction
that
these
lands
go
and
we
carried
out
the
research
and
England.
Last
year
we
couldn't
get
the
data
in
Scotland
and
Wales
wasn't
available,
so
so
this
year,
hopefully,
we
will
see
destination
points
for
these
construction
learners.
What
we're
hearing
from
the
SME
sector
in
particular
and
the
construction
sector
is
they're
not
moving
into
that
space.
So
we
are
they
going
that
supposes
the
question
and
it
suppose
part
of
your
role
as
if
they
are
not
moving
into
construction,
if
they're
not
employable
within
the
sector.
S
So
if
we
can
change
the
way
in
which
we
enable
people
to
experience
a
sector,
whether
it's
construction,
the
built
environment
or
another
in
the
secondary
school
level,
through
an
alternative
form
of
learning,
then
what
we
will
have
is
young
people
that
are
work
ready
and
have
the
skills
and
capabilities
our
employers
are
looking
for
and
then
will
adapt
to.
Whatever
skills
are
required
in
the
industry,
what
we
do
just
now
is
we
train
people
to
do
a
job.
You're,
a
joiner,
you're,
a
severe
you
work
in
public.
S
You
work
in
private,
we're
very
narrow,
and
if
we
can
change
our
approach
to
education
and
change,
how
we
approach
the
rescaling
and
Retraining
once
people
are
in
employment,
I
think
we
can
do
wonderful
things
with
the
with
the
skills
and
the
construction
industry
that
we
have,
and
but
we
do
have
to
look
at
it
differently.
I
wonder.
T
But
say
every
year
we
trained
6,000
apprentices.
Last
year
we
had
6,000
104
people
entering
the
industry
as
a
as
an
apprentice,
not
all
of
those
individuals
and
new
entrants.
Many
of
them
are
already
employed,
and
you
know
that
either
you
know
upskilling
or
they're,
coming
from
other
industries
and
really
training
or
they're
been
trained
at
higher
level
in
leadership
and
management.
Certainly
many
of
the
older
cohort
and
that
you
know,
obviously
improves
industry
going
forward
in
terms
of
young
people.
T
We
in
skills
development,
Scotland
office
they
have
foundation
a
plane
to
ship
switches,
are
fairly
new
product.
It's
been
going
for
a
few
years
and
it's
beginning
to
address
some
of
the
diversity
issues
that
we've
got
in
the
industry.
For
example,
foundation.
Apprenticeships
in
the
construction
area,
13.1%
are
female,
so
that's
a
big
arise
from
modern
apprenticeships,
where
there's
only
1%
of
females
choosing
that
route
and
remember
that's
vocational
education.
Many
females
enter
the
construction
industry,
but
go
into
the
industry
at
higher
level.
T
Jobs
through
further
education
or
higher
education,
and
in
fact,
University
and
participation
by
female,
is
something
like
there
to
9
percent,
so
the
higher
the
qualification
would
attract
if
it
is
to
female
participants.
The
ami
program
itself
is
opened
to
you,
know
people
of
all
backgrounds
and
gender
and
ethnicity,
and
but
sometimes
it's
difficult,
because
you
know
it's
a
a
mobile
labour
market
as
a
mobile
labour,
individuals,
female
and
participants,
don't
necessarily
want
you
know
to
travel
from
Glasgow
certain
D,
every
deed.
T
You
know
to
work
because
the
terms
and
conditions
don't
tend
to
lend
themselves
particularly
well
to
female
participation,
particularly
for
older
female
workers.
In
terms
of
entrance
into
the
industry.
We
are
looking
at
in
school,
creating
new
pathways
for
young
people
at
lower
level,
so
seq
a
four
and
five
for
young
people
who
perhaps
wouldn't
make
it
in
the
industry
through
the
traditional
routes
trying
to
offer
you
vocational
pathways
for
those
young
people
to
make
a
start
in
the
industry
and
they
interpret
days.
T
You
know
either
onto
Foundation
apprenticeship
or
then
onto
the
mean
modern
apprenticeship
or
graduate
I
plan
to
ship.
Some
young
people
don't
and
really
well
to
you
know
the
types
of
landing
you
get
in
school:
they
don't
do
well
with
chalk
and
talk
and
vocational
learning
is
actually
something
which
enthuse
induces
them
and
you
know
makes
them.
You
know
light
up
and
you
know
can
be
successful
in
a
career,
perhaps
never
thought
of,
and
so
those
pathways
you
know,
we
hope,
will
help
with
that.
T
So
I
would
say
in
terms
of
attracting
talent
into
the
industry.
I
would
say,
government
and
making
big
inroads
in
terms
of
looking
at
particular
learning
styles
and
offering
pathways,
and
as
the
government
agency
skills
development
Scotland
is
looking
at
innovation
and
trying
to
bring
you
know
new
ease
of
attracting
Libra
and,
most
importantly,
we
can't
do
any
of
this
without
engaging
employers-
and
you
know,
as
Maureen
has
pointed
out,
the
industry
is
made
up
with
SMEs.
T
Most
of
our
apprentices
are
employed
with
SMEs,
and
so
it's
very
important
to
attract
employers
and
turn
those
employers
and
get
them
to
aspire
to
and
placing
little
in
talents
pipelines
so
investing
in
young
people
as
an
industry
in
our
sector
in
Scotland.
It
is
the
only
sector
where
there
is
huge
levels
of
both
private
and
public
investment.
T
U
Bse
skills
is
a
new
organization.
We
have
been
part
of
the
building
services,
engineering
sector,
that
plumbers,
electricians,
heating
and
ventilation,
refrigeration
trades.
We
had
a
two
skills
council.
They
came
to
a
sticky
end
and,
as
we
all
collaborated
in
Scotland,
this
is
three
trade
associations
select,
snip
eff
and
visa.
We
collaborate,
we
decided
we
would
continue
to
collaborate
and
that
we
wanted
to
take
a
very
detailed,
in-depth
participation.
All
four
skills
and
training
is
offered
in
our
industry.
That's
not
to
say
this
was
new.
U
This
we've
always
done
this,
but
working
alongside
organisations
like
some
skills,
SDS
sqe.
So
we
we
set
up
this
new
company.
It's
quite
unique
in
that
it's
run
by
three
trade
associations
that
has
three
directors
and
one
consultant
and
that's
it.
Our
Rima
is
simply
to
look
at
qualifications,
National
Occupational
standards
and
Modern
Apprenticeship
frameworks,
but
underneath
all
that
there
are
three
trade
associations
that
feel
very
passionately
about
their
industry
and
the
people
who
work
in
that
industry,
be
the
employers
or
employees.
U
My
side
of
the
business
is
looking
at
the
skills
and
training.
Your
question
was:
where
do
these
people
come
from
in
Electrotechnical?
Our
training
provider
would
argue
that
they
are
inundated
with
applications,
but
they
too
would
say
that
the
quality
of
the
applications
has
fallen
and
it
is
harder
to
do
that
sift.
The
Ian
was
referring
to,
but
that
doesn't
mean
to
say
the
quality
is
still
good.
It's
not
as
good
as
it
was.
It's
not
empirical
evidence.
U
It's
an
opinion
that
six
best
we're
very
recently
with
our
English
colleagues
I
conducted
an
LMI
for
the
first
time
in
our
industry,
and
that
was
in
the
Electrotechnical
sector
and
that
intelligence
came
back,
seeing
that
there
is
a
difference
in
young
people.
They
are
looking
for
different
things.
They
don't
particularly
like
this
idea
of
travelling,
which
has
been
mentioned
by
other
panelists,
and
so
there
probably
has
to
be
another
look
at
how
people
are
employed
in
the
industry
and
what
we're
expecting
from
them.
U
But
as
far
as
the
training
goes,
what
came
through
in
the
labor
market
intelligence
is
that
Electrotechnical
is
a
sustainable
occupation.
People
come
in
and
this
day
and
they
progress
through
the
industry.
They
come
in
as
an
apprentice
and
they
stay.
They
go
into
management
and
often
become
older
owners
company
owners.
So
we
know
that
we
are
doing
well,
whether
or
not
that
fills
the
skills
gap
is
a
difficult
question
to
ask
all
our
answer.
U
My
friend
ation
apprenticeships
for
us
are
difficult
in
the
context
of
health
and
safety
aspects,
but
we
do
run
a
ruin.
Pre-Apprenticeship
programs.
We
have
an
MPA.
The
national
progression
award,
covers
all
three
sectors,
but
that's
not
funded,
so
it's
very
difficult
to
encourage
young
people
and
their
families
to
become
involved
or
employers
for
that
matter.
I
think.
A
O
It
thanks
very
much
convener
and
I
think
to
build
on
some
of
the
questions
that
t
M
and
the
Whiteman
was
asking,
and
especially
around
diversity,
so
I
mean
it
is
disappointing
to
me.
Reading
the
figures
that
and
I
take
the
point
that
I
think
the
Stewart
made
that
at
the
higher
and
Fe
level
there
are
more
women
coming
in,
but
I
mean
one
percent
of
entrance
does
come
across
as
program
and
I
mean
we
see
other
sectors
like
say
the
police,
who
are
predominantly
male,
making
quite
big
steps
forward
in
bringing
more
women.
Then.
O
S
An
absolute
tragedy
and
to
be
fair
and
I
work
in
the
sector
and
and
I'm
appalled
about
a
slight
history
lesson.
I
mean
we've
created
this
industry
itself
as
a
screed
and
sustained
this,
and
unlike
other
sectors,
we
haven't
made
the
shift
to
change
because
we
won't
go
back
to
the
18th
century,
where
apprenticeships
are
run
by
parishes,
but
prior
to
the
world.
Wars
is
very
common
to
see
women
in
as
bricklayers
as
carpenters
as
crafts.
S
Women
as
an
craftsmen,
is
very,
very,
very
common
and
particularly
in
the
rural
locations
and
the
Wars
came,
and
we
all
know
and
what
happened
when
they
came
back
from
the
war
and
the
role
of
women
particularly
changed,
and
from
that
grew
organizations
and
institutions
and
as
an
industry,
we
became
very
narrow
so
that
you,
the
joiners
the
plumbers.
The
electricians
are
professionals,
architects,
they
all
have
their
own
little
bodies
and
and
develop
their
own
qualifications,
and
we
all
know
recruitment.
S
You
typically
employ
the
person
that
looks
and
and
rep
said
to
so
he
ends
up
with
a
white
male.
Predominantly
this
much
sorry
if
that's
slightly
contention
'el,
but
we
end
up
with
an
industry
that
looks
like
what
it
looks
like
and
but
not
much
of
a
desire
to
really
really
fundamentally
shift
and
change
that.
So
how
do
we
do
that
and
I
say.
O
S
It's
a
blend
of
absolutely
employers
have
the
responsibility
because
they
take
on,
and
but
you
know
what
you
know
and
with
that
industry
being
small
microwaves,
it
is
it's
very
difficult
to
to
change
those
behaviors
and
without
changing
something
first
and
for
me,
sorry,
you
did
ask
for
a
short
answer.
Good
and
so
I'll
get
to
the
point
and
I'll
get
to
the
point
at
it.
S
For
me,
it's
the
talent
pipeline
if
we
can
provide
a
more
diverse
range
of
talent
coming
through
into
the
sector
through
I
I,
think
the
foundation
of
plaintiffs
are
phenomenal
and
really
exciting,
but
coming
into
the
sector
and
through
a
variety
of
death
pathways,
so
that
those
people
coming
through
reflect
the
communities
within
which
we
work,
and
it's
not
just
obviously
about
women.
Then
we
will
gain
confidence
with
employers
to
then
tea
corn
and
to
then
shift
it.
O
U
And
we,
we
firmly
believe
that
the
schools
and
careers
advisors
can
help.
We
run
a
competition
in
this
area
and
Lutheran's
and
Edinburgh,
and
it's
a
combination
of
work
from
training
providers,
universities
and
colleges,
and
it's
a
skills,
competition
and
it's
tasks
them
that
are
fun
in
terms
of
Electrotechnical,
heating
and
ventilating.
They
have
to
make
water
go
through
a
pipe.
They
have
to
make
a
light
turn
on
build
a
roof,
all
sorts
of
things
and
it's
great
great
fun.
U
It's
aimed
at
s
for
pupils
and
it's
the
number
of
girls
that
are
there
and
how
they
work
with
the
boys
as
teams,
nor
as
girls
and
boys,
but
as
teams
and
they
enjoy,
and
if
we
could
rule
that
out
with
the
help
of
the
schools,
careers
SDS
to
other
parts
of
the
country.
It's
got
to
influence
young
people
and
how
they
approach
this
industry
and
what
it
offers
I
mean.
O
U
O
V
Think
we
need
to
look
at
wise
increase
twice:
there's
been
a
more
diverse
workforce,
increasing
in
the
higher
levels.
You
know
at
universities
and
colleges
and
maybe
to
allow
some
of
the
elements
from
that
you've
had
some
key
role
models
from
the
sector
from
women
in
this
sector.
Who
commented
to
particular
positions?
We
see
them
in
the
press.
We
assume
in
the
television
that
all
helps
and
we're
not
seeing
that
at
the
trades
area
in
terms
of
a
survey
in
2016
by
keep
moat
when
the
asked
young
women,
how
do
they
see
the
construction
sector?
V
Would
they
work
in
it
and
it
was
twenty
four
twenty
nine
percent
said
they
thought
construction
was
only
on
site,
so
conduct
here
terminology
when
there's
so
many
other
clean
tech
and
engineering
and
other
type
roles
out
there.
I
think
that
the
sector
probably
needs
to
widen
that
reach
of
what
it's
seeing.
What
the
messages
are
do.
V
Both
site
wide
applies,
guided
by
many
as
an
opportunity,
particularly
through
the
the
flexibility
of
other
operations,
around
work
of
people
having
families
and
various
other
things
and
shift
patterns.
But,
as
we
know,
it's
not
a
panacea.
We've
seen
in
the
car
industry
in
America
how
that
shifted
significantly
to
have
more
female
workers.
However,
then
it
shifted
back
and
I.
Think
that's
an
understanding
is
why
did
it
shift?
Why
did
it
reduce
again
in
America?
Don't
have
the
answer
to
that,
but
you
know
worked
in
one
way,
but
then
it
fell
back.
Okay,.
R
I
think
I
would
agree
with
colleagues
in
terms
of
that
talent
pipeline
is
quite
shocking,
that
any
sector
has
50
percent
of
his
potential
talent
paint
Wayne,
not
involved
in
the
sector
in
terms
of
recruitment.
Huge
waste,
in
my
opinion,
missed
opportunity.
We
are
planning
to
put
together
a
substantial
career
strategy
in
Scotland's
working
with
colleagues
and
skills
development
Scotland,
and
we
have
to
look
at
the
this
type
of
strategy
over
four
five
six
year
period.
R
It's
not
a
quick
fix
and
there
will
be
other
four
strands,
in
my
opinion,
to
any
clear
strategy
to
attract
and
diversify
the
workforce
and
the
use
of
digital
in
social
media.
There's
the
use
of
experience
hands-on.
What
with
young
people
in
particular,
there's
the
use
of
ambassadors,
which
was
touched
upon
role,
models
and
there's
the
use
of
marketing
campaign,
harps
and
Mane's
type
approach.
R
It's
just
not
sustainable,
so
I
think
in
terms
of
how
we
address
that
in
terms
of
the
sector's,
which
needs
the
correct
skills
which
needs
to
have
the
right
people
in
place.
They
drive
the
economy
forward.
I
think
it's
important
that
we
address
that
collectively
with
government
and
the
training
body
to
make
sure
we
can.
We
can
tackle
this
head-on.
Okay,.
N
So
if
the
witnesses
accept
that
the
construction
industry
has
an
image
problem
in
the
first
instance,
I
want
to
hear
about
what
industry
it
can
do
about
that.
You
know.
Perhaps
you
know,
Ref,
listen,
pegye
or
reputations
for
adversarial
relationships.
A
Orton,
conscious
bias
will
come
on
in
the
government
agencies
later,
but
I
want
to
specifically
know
what
industry's
gonna
do
to
improve
its
image.
S
You
Angela,
so
I
would
disagree
empar
and
that
the
image
problem,
I
believe,
starts
back
at
school
and
the
fact
that
their
first
experience
of
a
construction
qualification
is,
if
it's
woodwork,
for
example
they.
You
know
the
task
is
to
measure
cut
and
then
chop
the
piece
of
wood
in
the
bin
that
doesn't
bring
them
into
the
construction
experience
and
help
them
understand
the
broad
range
of
careers.
As
you
would
you
see
how
to
take
her.
S
Thank
you,
no
wasn't
meaning
to
be
rude,
but
that
provides
the
foundation
from
which
industry
then
has
to
build
upon.
So,
if
you
like,
we
are
already
getting
at
a
preconditioned,
a
narrow
group
of
people
into
the
industry.
Then
it's
up
for
us,
as
mostly
small
and
micros,
to
do
what
we
can
within
the
environments
to
to
create
something
that
provides
for
all,
but
when
you're
typically
only
employing
a
particular
cohort.
S
But
if
you
to
ask
me,
what
can
industry
do
when
90%
of
its
my
crew
I
think
that's
as
a
huge
challenge
and
responsibility
and
I
think
the
responsibility
actually
lies
elsewhere
with
the
policy
makers,
the
funders,
the
influencers
the
educators
to
to
then
create
a
pipeline
at
all,
and
it
comes
into
the
sector,
which
is
then
more
diverse,
and
that
in
itself
will
culturally
help
businesses
grow.
Okay,.
N
R
Industry
has
to
lead
with
the
support
of
organizations
such
as
CIT
B
in
terms
of
leverage
and
investments.
The
capability
I
think
the
image
of
the
sector
is
pure
right
across
the
board.
So
what
you
have
to
do
in
terms
of
rebalancing
that
image
is
to
move
into
your
space
whereby
the
pathways
and
to
opportunity
which
exist
you're,
not
making
things
up
here.
It's
not
anecdotal.
We
create
tens
and
thousands
of
jobs.
R
Every
year
we
offer
tens
of
thousands
of
jobs
every
year
and
the
earth
Peck
top
the
image
of
construction
for
many
young
people
in
particular,
and,
more
importantly,
their
parents.
The
research
carried
out
recently
I
think
75%
of
piernas
said
yes
to
an
apprenticeship,
but
only
25%
for
my
child,
so
so
that's
based
on
on
factors
such
as
image
image.
Basically
in
terms
of
what
does
that
mean?
Is
that
the
building
say
image
is
the
image
of
the
the
guys
walking
down
after
work
and
covered
in
mud?
R
Is
that
the
image
that
the
P
is
not
very
good
is
that
there
makes
that
the
clear
opportunities
aren't
very
good.
These
all
need
rebalance
the
be
dressed.
You
can't
sugarcoat
the
fact
that
building
sites
are
dirty
hard
places
to
what
can,
and
why
should
we,
however,
when
you
look
at
the
270,000
jobs
and
construe,
many
of
which
are
worth
the
building
sites?
How
do
we
get
that
message
across
that's
Emma
JH?
R
Basically,
and
it
goes
back
to
this
pathway
of
job
opportunities,
huge
amount
of
job
opportunities,
career
opportunities,
not
necessarily
on
the
tools
on
the
building
sites.
We
need
to
rebalance
what
the
images
and
we
know
there
was
Mission
Illinois.
In
my
18
year,
old
daughter,
was
going
through
the
careers
conversations
recently.
She
was
given
two
brochures,
one
in
construction
and
one
in
the
built
environment.
Construction
over-the-shoulder,
built
environment
looks
interesting
because
it
was
pitched
a
different
way
in
terms
of
the
image
and
the
opportunities.
N
R
Goes
back
to
plans
which
we
will
announce
shortly
in
a
matter
of
weeks
to
invest
considerable
additional
money
in
Scotland
to
address
aspects
such
as
image
and
opportunity
through
carriers,
campaigns
through
direct
interventions
of
funding
within
the
school
environment,
with
colleagues
and
government,
not
not
in
isolation
but,
more
importantly,
with
employers
around
us.
We
are
able
to
step
in
and
get
that
message
across,
whether
it's
ambassadors
giving
a
story
or
whether
it's
the
job
opportunities
which
exist.
R
N
T
We
have
a
digital
platform
which
we
have
my
world
of
work.
We
have
marketplace.
We
have
information
for
individuals,
young
people,
so
from
primary
school
right
through
second
just
information,
which
is
pertinent
to
their
particular
stage
and
the
decisions
that
they
are
making
about
construction.
If
you
look
at
what
we
have
in
my
world
of
work,
it's
a
very
comprehensive
offering
for
construction.
Construction
is
a
most
popular
apprenticeship.
T
We
have
twenty
two
for
two
percent
of
participation
in
modern
apprenticeships
in
construction.
If
it
were
a
negative
industry
and
the
perceptions
were
negative,
we
wouldn't
have
those
people
coming
into
those
apprenticeship
places.
We
have
a.
We
have
greater
demand
than
we
have
supply
of
places
and
in
terms
of
employment
opportunities
for
every
one.
Job
there'll
be
six
applicants
at
least
six
applicants
and,
as
Ian
has
pointed
out
in
some
areas,
you've
got
a
couple
of
hundred
applicants
for
and
for
those
places.
T
So
we
have
careers
advisers
who
are
working
directly
with
young
people
through
all
stages
of
the
school
clear
going
desert
start.
It
started
started
some
primary
school,
in
fact
we're
doing
stuff
to
encourage
primary
teachers
and
primary
school
pupils
to
use
our
digital
platform,
so
that
they're
making
choices
from
an
informed
position
as
they
go
through
the
transitions
from
prime
to
school.
To
take
him
to
school.
Young
people
have
got
an
idea
of
what
what
kiddie
it
is.
T
They
can
work
out
what
the
strengths
are,
so
they
can
build
on
that
as
they're
going
through
the
and
second
to
school
career,
and
we
have
a
apprenticeship
Scott,
which
is
a
vacancy
portal,
so
young
people
can
actually
look
at
jobs
that
are
available
in
particular
sectors.
We've
got
blue
chip
companies,
we've
got,
you
know
all
sorts
of
organisations.
Cit
B
are
working
with
us
or
in
our
digital
platform
and
producing
more
jobs
on
to
a
pionship
store
Scott,
so
that
young
people
can
see
that
our
jobs-
it's
not
just
a
blicket.
T
It's
not
just
a
carpenter
that
are,
you,
know,
building
standards,
there's
you
know
and
a
clocks
of
works.
There's
civil
engineering
as
a
whole
gamut
of
occupations
and
young
people
can
plan
the
kidiot
accordingly.
Now
a
lot
of
young
people
want
to
vocational
jobs.
They
want
to
do
you
know
jobs
that
involve
making
things
or
contributing
to
the
making
of
things,
and
other
people
want
to
you
to
design
things,
and
maybe
you
know
so
outline
the
plans
for
someone
else
to
do
so.
The
digital
platform,
my
world
of
work,
allows
young
people
to
gather
information.
T
But
it's
a
huge
hill
to
claim
in
terms
of
changing
hearts
and
minds
in
vocational
education
and
achieving
that
palliative
esteem.
All
our
digital
offering
will
help
with
that.
But
we
need
to
get
your
messages
out
and
we
need
to
get
industry
to
back
this.
We
have
case
studies,
someone
mentioned
already.
We
have
case
studies.
We
are,
you
know,
diverse
individuals
who
are
working
in
the
industry.
We're
trying
to
you
know,
promote
them
as
ambassadors,
so
young
people
can
aspire
to
be
the
same
as
them.
It's
not
a
closed
occupation.
T
You
know
if
you're
a
female
or
you're,
you
have
a
disability
or
you
come
from
the
ethnic
background,
so
skills
development
Scotland
is
spending
a
lot
of
time
and
effort
to
populate
our
digital
platforms
with
information
which
is
relevant
for
individuals,
parents,
teachers
and
employers
and
they're
the
most
important,
because
those
are
some
of
the
hearts
and
mains.
We
have
to
change
because,
as
Maureen
said,
you
know,
people
tend
to
recruit
in
the
likeness
until
they're,
showing
something
different,
and
so
the
case,
studies
and
examples
that
we've
got
we've
got.
V
I
currently
chaired
the
short
life
working
group
government
group
in
new
housing
construction
skills.
We've
had
a
lot
of
involvement.
My
thanks
to
SDS
and
the
SMEs,
and
also
CIT
be
FMB
Scottish,
Builders,
Federation
and
Homes
for
Scotland.
That
report
will
come
out
the
next
two
or
three
weeks
make
sure
the
committee
has
sight
of
that.
V
There
has
been
the
inclusive
growth
and
trying
to
get
more
people
to
come
into
the
sector
in
the
southeast,
because
there's
going
to
be
a
40%
uplift
in
the
number
of
new
homes
to
be
built
over
the
next
20
years,
which
is
staggering
amount
of
activity
and
work
and
therefore
the
amount
of
jobs
in
the
southeast
of
Scotland
was
the
fastest
growing
region
in
Scotland,
it's
the
fifth
fastest
growing
region.
The
UK
can't
be
done
with
the
normal
routes.
V
So
we've
worked
with
SDS
and
others
to
look
at
what
are
the
systemic
themes
we
will
put
into
southeast
Scotland,
and
this
has
been
feeding
into
the
the
short
life
working
group
for
new
housing.
Construction
skills
for
Scotland
there'll
be
a
specific
focus
on
this
early
years
and
as
part
of
that
early
outreach.
Although
the
project
has
not
started,
we've
been
in
to
speak
to
all
the
head
teachers
of
the
primary
schools
in
Edinburgh
and
the
head
teachers
of
the
secondary
schools
and
others
to
see.
We
need
to
get
in
front
of
the
teachers.
V
This
is
so
many
years
down
the
line
and
said
because
when
we've
asked
our
students
who
arrived
at
Napier,
where
did
you
first
hear
about
sustainability,
low-carbon
technologies,
renewable
energy,
they
all
say
primary
school?
So
the
primary
school
teachers
have
an
incredibly
influential
role
to
plant
a
seed
and
what
we'd
like
to
do
with
that
is
build
on
that
and
take
that
across
safety
Scotland's,
but
the
short
life
working
group
or
the
new
housing
construction
skills
for
Scotland
will
also
be
making
that
recommendation
to
come
forward.
K
R
S
K
S
K
R
I
think
I
think
modding
is
absolutely
correct.
I
mean
again.
I
can
only
speak
from
what
employer
just
seeing
our
customers.
So
we
had
a
painter
and
decorator
had
two
apprenticeships
70
applications
and-
and
he
said
once
he
surfed
it
through
the
applications.
He
could
only
get
it
down
to
a
shortlist
of
four
and
eventually
went
through.
Has
internal
recruitment
processes.
We
didn't
recruit
anyone
and
what
he
was
saying
to
me
in
just
in
terms
of
the
skills
that
the
applicants
were
bringing
to
the
table.
R
Just
weren't
as
strong
as
it
would
have
been
10
15
20
years
ago,
know
whether
there's
a
direct
correlation
between
what
happened
in
the
school's
10
20
years
ago.
I,
don't
I,
don't
know,
but
that's
employer
was
definitely
saying
that
the
the
quality
of
the
experience
that
the
young
person
was
bringing
now.
That
could
be
partly
because
the
population
of
young
people
were
doing
other
things.
They
were
less
interested
in
becoming
a
paint
on
decorator
and
were
more
interested
and
moving
into
college
or
university,
or
food
and
drink
or
manufacturing.
R
We've
talked
about
the
image
and
the
recruitment
issues
and,
and
the
the
pipeline
of
talent,
diminishing
from
the
skill,
cool,
hot
and
I,
think
it's
because
construction
probably
hasn't
kept
up
with
his
compared
to
Tubbs.
In
terms
of
the
offer
that
our
highs
know,
the
offer
is
extremely
strong,
huge
opportunities,
great
career
opportunities,
I
just
don't
think
it's
kept
up
with,
and
some
of
the
other
sectors
who
are
in
the
skills
also
wanting
a
piece
of
that
pupil
and
they
are
offered
in
their
proposition
and
I.
R
Think
it's
something
as
a
sector
you
known
as
and
with
public
sector
partners.
We
need
to
address
basically
because
I
think
it
boils
down
to
what
is
the
economic
impact
have
on
the
country
of
construction?
What
does
it
have,
and
it
has
a
very
big
impact,
so
I
think
if
we
were
a
mess
overs
not
to
try
and
address
some
of
that
opportunity
in
town
pipeline
which
is
weak
at
the
present
time,
I
would
suggest
do.
K
You
think
this
may
be
up
to
the
parent.
You
think
a
lot
of
schools,
rather
than
encouraging
people,
perhaps
to
go
into
apprenticeship
reading
colleges,
are,
are
encouraging
this
to
aim
towards
university.
It's
at
an
area
that
perhaps
we
don't
have
a
parity
of
esteem
with
universe,
that
with
apprenticeship
places
and
we
need
to
value
a
society
apprenticeships
more
certainly,.
U
T
Foundation,
apprenticeships
will
hopefully
start
to
turn
the
tide
in
that
respect,
because
young
people
are
making
positive
choices
about
careers
and
about
moving
into
particular
industries
and
during
the
senior
phase
of
school
they're,
getting
both
academic
underpinning
knowledge,
but
also,
most
importantly,
that
getting
vocational
opportunities
working
with
employers.
So
hopefully,
when
those
young
people
are
moving
from
school
and
from
foundational
internships,
they're
much
more
attractive.
T
Employees
for
employers
to
take
horns
was
a
smooth
transition
from
school
foundation,
a
plane
ship
into
modern
apprenticeship,
because
they
have
those
skills
and
they're
equipped
with
an
understanding
of
the
industry,
then
moving
into
so
that,
hopefully
not
making
any
wrong
choices,
and
that
was
they.
Thank.
J
There's
obviously,
some
positive
comments
were
made
about
foundation,
apprenticeships
and
graduate
apprenticeships
and
so
on,
but
clearly
there
is
a.
There
is
an
issue
out
there
about
the
quality
of
the
applications,
and
so
on
that
have
been
explored
to
some
extent.
Do
we
still
have
more
what
to
do
specifically
in
relation
to
construction,
apprenticeships,
to
redesign
these
to
better
shape
them
for
the
future?
Is
there
still
more
work
there.
A
V
One
of
the
discussions
that
come
up
at
the
short
life
working
group
early
on
because
of
the
shortage,
for
example,
of
bricklayers,
another
radius
for
the
sector
and
not
taking
away
from
the
electrical
sales
there's
shortages
there
too,
but
in
relation
to
bricklaying
we
have
a
number
of
house
builders
who
want
to
take
on
apprentices
who,
perhaps
in
the
past,
haven't
or
haven't
invested
the
same
and
they're
generally
go
into
their
subcontractors
and
they're,
finding
it
difficult
to
take
on
young
people
who
want
to
do
a
four-year
modern
apprenticeship
in
Breitling.
The
house.
V
Builders
of
some
of
them
have
also
made
the
comments
that
well
we
don't
want
to
do
curved
walls
and
arches.
At
this
point
we
just
like
them
to
get
them
in
start,
bricklaying
start
working
on
houses.
Can
we
do
a
qualification,
not
a
fool
Amy,
but
a
qualification
which
is
bricklaying
for
house
buildings,
so
we're
getting
them
in
we're?
Getting
them
excited,
we've
got
them
salaried
and
then
can
we
step
them
up
to
that
Amy
and
lead
them
onto
the
future.
So
I
think
there's
a
there's
a
request
from
parts
of
the
sector.
V
Not
all-
and
this
isn't
watering
down-
this
is
not
an
Amy
by
the
back
door
or
anything.
This
is
a
sector.
That's
seeing
they're
listening
to
young
people
who
are
saying
they
want
to
be
at
work,
probably
slightly
quicker
Muenster
to
do
various
things.
There's
a
need,
there's
a
demand.
Could
we
maybe
adapt
some
of
those
when
we
look
at
some
of
the
skills
and
technologies
to
come,
I
mean
as
a
sector?
It's
incredibly
exciting.
V
I
mean
the
next
10
20
years
is
transformational
not
just
in
Scotland
but
globally,
with
the
amount
of
new
technologies
in
clean
tech
and
other
infrastructure
required,
in
addition
to
all
of
the
retrofit
and
the
traditional
craft
skills.
So
do
our
current
when
we've
had
discussions
with
some
organisations
to
say
well
what
about,
if
you
brought
a
qualification
in
that
area,
I
think
there's
a
general
feeling
that
may
take
a
bit
longer
than
you
thought.
There's
a
lot
of
paperwork's
a
lot
of
hurdles.
So
is
there
a
request?
R
Employer
demand
extensively,
we
will
assess
with
partners
and
the
public
sector
and
designing
qualifications.
We
are
those
proven
demand
from
employers
for
that
qualification.
There's
no
point
in
spending
the
time,
efforts
and
money
and
designing
something
which
has
no
pickup
from
the
employers
who
actually
want
to
retain
individuals
within
their
business.
So
if
there
was
a
demand
from
employers,
we
react
to
that.
We
bring
our
standards
and
qualifications
colleagues
around
the
table
with
employers
to
design
a
qualification
which
they
will
then
pick
up
through
the
employment
route
itself.
So
we
are
not
prescriptive.
R
S
For
me,
and
our
four-year
craft
apprenticeship,
as
I
said
earlier,
is
regarded
and
an
envied
by
many
and
our
particular
organisation
that
four-year
craft
apprenticeship
at
the
end
of
that
did
not
produce
similar
to
what
janet
was
seeing
earlier
and
did
not
produce
that
that
the
outcome
and
because
they
learned
things
that
they
didn't
do
and
they
didn't
learn
things
that
they
did
do
in.
In
short,
and
so
we
have
our
specialist
apprenticeship
program
now,
which
is
specific
to
house
building,
but
it's
not
one
or
the
other.
S
We
have
to
have
a
spectrum
of
qualifications,
the
kree
pathways,
which
we
don't
have
at
the
moment,
but
pathways.
So
you
can
go
and
do
a
craft
apprenticeship
and
work
in
Ripon,
your
maintenance
and
they
move
into
house
building,
do
your
transition
retraining
and
then
become
a
specialist
and
price
work
and
so
on.
We
don't
have
these
pathways,
so
if
we
can
protect,
what's
creating
good
but
then
develop
other
qualifications
specific
to
sector,
perhaps
apprenticeship
models,
shared
apprenticeship
models
in
the
rules
and
the
Highlands
and
the
islands.
S
U
The
BSC
sector,
we
take
a
holistic
view
of
training,
we
train
people
to
be
able
to
work
in
the
commercial
site
to
the
domestic
sector
and
the
industrial
sector.
We
see
that
is
the
right
way
to
go
about
things,
because
then,
when
people
move
from
job
to
job
employer
to
employer,
they
can
adapt
to
suit
that
employers
particular
type
of
business.
We
also
encourage
and
do
provide
continuing
professional
developments
in
the
new
technologies,
new
renewable
technologies,
electric
vehicle
charging,
installation
and
building
standards.
U
All
of
these
things-
and
we
see
very
much
as
the
craftsman
is
the
the
the
core
with
top-up
training
in
the
specialisms-
and
that
is
part
of
your
I-
didn't
get
a
chance
to
see
it
but
earlier,
but
we
seek
professionalism
in
our
treats,
and
particularly
in
the
Electrotechnical
sector.
We
are
seeking
protection
of
title
so
that
we
can
get
protect
professionalism
into
the
industry
and
people
will
have
a
pride
and
being
an
electrician,
not
just
because
they
are
properly
trained
and
well
trained,
but
because
they
are
electricians.
So
that's
where
we
are
just.
J
S
That's
that
that's
our
apprenticeship
program.
We
are
one
of
those
examples
of
the
dumbing
down,
and
so
the
challenge
was
which
I
expressed
earlier.
The
outcome
in
terms
of
the
learner
skills
was
not
what
we
needed
to
deliver
a
zero
defect
Ruth
and
we
worked
actually
hard
with
institutions,
the
qualifications
bodies,
apprenticeships
that
we
worked
really
hard
to
try
and
change
the
content
and
and
we
weren't
able
to
because
it's
a
generic
qualification
that
quite
rightly
has
to
cover
all
elements,
because
very
few
companies
will
be
doing
a
particular
thing
in
volume.
S
So
it's
an
unusual
situation.
So
in
four
years,
I've
put
fifty
apprentices
through
the
scheme,
half
of
which
are
now
an
industry
qualified
of
of
that
half
half
are
working
for
other
contractors.
For
that
sake,
because
they
will
come
back
again
and
then
the
other
half
are
in
training
either
and
there's
the
second
or
the
recently
recruited
this
year
and
it's
done
in
a
residential
program
and
what
we
seek
to
do.
There
is
to
not
just
develop
the
individual,
but
the
learning
is
contextualized
to
industry
standards.
S
So
it's
that
industry
standard
piece
that
the
quality
control
element.
The
fabric
of
what
we
do
in
volume
that
we
cannot
replicate
elsewhere,
our
other
training
providers.
So
whilst
we
are
a
contractor,
we
didn't
step
into
training.
We
fell
into
training
because
we
couldn't
get
the
skilled
workers
that
were
looking
for
so
I
would
argue
an
or
an
example
of
dilution.
But
I
do
understand
the
fear.
When
you
look
what's
happened
in
England,
for
example,
it's
a
plethora
of
confusion,
different
training
place,
we're
not
like
that
in
Scotland.
S
You've
probably
got
one
qualifications
body,
not
me,
but
probably
one.
You
know:
we've
got
funding
council
we've
got
skills,
development,
Scotland
procane.
We
don't
have
the
massive
kind
of
population
don't
so
we
can
figure
this
out
if
we're
creative
and
I
think
a
lot
of
what
you
may
hear
is
a
lot
of
closed
minds
and
protectionism,
because
that's
the
way
it's
going
to
be
well
back
to
the
written
question.
S
If
we're
going
to
change
what
our
industry
looks
like
and
who's
in
our
industry,
then
we
have
to
challenge
fundamentally
how
we
do
things
and
I
think
we
can
do
that
through
skills
and
training.
So
we
do
need
to
room
and
modernize
our
Emmy
program
by
the
way.
This
that's
maybe
a
different
discussion.
I
My
questioning
has
been
covered,
but
let
me
ask
professor
Smith
about
CITV,
because
earlier
on,
you
talked
about
digital
transformation.
See
ITB,
actually
expressed
concern
that
the
industry
is
yet
to
undergo
the
digital
transformation
it
needs.
Why
do
you
think
this
is,
and
what
do
we
need
to
do
to
make
it
happen?.
V
Well,
digital
transformation
is
happening,
a
variety
of
different
measures
and
again,
if
I
may
use
the
example
of
southeast
Scotland.
The
the
two
principal
skills
gateways
that
are
planned
for
South
East
Scotland
for
the
Edinburgh
and
South
East
City
region
deal
are
data
driven
innovation
and
housing,
construction
infrastructure
because
they're
the
two
largest
growth
sectors
for
this
mutual
economy
and
that
integration
of
what's
happening
digitally
or
with
data
and
the
integration
of
where
future
infrastructure
is
going
is
still
a
bit
of
a
learning
journey.
V
So
if
we
could
take
them
as
an
example,
Building
Information
modelling,
it
was
great
that
the
government's
both
sides
of
the
board
and
North
border
wanted
to
encourage
BIM.
But
one
of
the
requests
that
will
be
bringing
from
the
short-life
working
group
is
that
when
we
do
have
major
consultations
on
changes
and
skills
are
or
changes
on,
building
regulations
or
other
policies,
we
probably
need
to
have
a
skills
impact
analysis.
No
one
turn
around
to
the
colleges
and
universities
or
the
companies
and
said:
do
you
have
enough
BIM
trained?
V
V
Sadly,
where
there
wasn't
that
initial
investment
people
were
recovering
from
the
sector
from
the
recession
and
as
a
result,
you
then
had
this
huge
churn
of
people
who
were
have
been
building
information
model,
qualified,
jumping
companies
to
get
increased
salaries
because
it
just
wasn't
this
supply,
so
in
terms
of
and
I
can't
blame
CITV
for
that,
because
they
weren't
responsible
for
the
policy,
but
whether
policy
change
comes
which
is
important
and
helps
the
sector
for
the
future.
I
think
what
it
has
to
come,
the
investment.
V
Now
things
are
happening
now
in
BIM
and
been
training
and
the
Innovation
Center
and
others
are
doing
things
but
I
think
that's
an
example
of
where
the
car
came
before
the
horse.
So
if
we're
going
to
embrace
digital
correctly,
I
think
we
need
to
make
sure
that
the
training
that
we
require
for
some
in
that
training
or
digital
content,
or
this
is
then
ready
to
then
roll
out
in.
I
R
C
Before
I
move
on
to
more
questions,
I
wanted
to
ask
you
a
question
about
training
where
these
construction
companies
pay
to
levies
for
training,
see
ITB
Levy
and
the
UK
government
apprenticeship,
where
they
discourage
companies,
benefit
from
the
UK
government.
Apprenticeship,
where
they
or
is
it
seen
as
another
form
of
taxation.
R
Just
adjust
in
terms
of
an
overview
there
are
approximately
70
companies
in
Scotland
P,
the
joint
apprenticeship,
where
a
bit
to
support
CIT
B
and
the
Westminster
levy
as
well.
So
these
are
70
companies
with
appeared
all
exceeding
3
million
pound.
So
we
work
and
will
have
worked
with
these
companies
in
a
one-to-one
basis
and
we
did
offer
them
a
transition
financial
assistance
in
the
first
year
and
we
fully
accept-
and
we
are
working
closely
with
Westminster
in
order
to
get
the
message
across
from
and
via
employers
and
via
the
construction.
R
Leadership
Council,
for
example,
that
to
have
one
sect
or
having
to
administer
to
levies
with
I'm,
not
gonna
tee
at
one
level
in
particular,
doesn't
make
particular
sense
in
terms
of
economies
of
scale
or
deficiencies
of
scale.
The
main
difference,
I
think
in
Scotland
and
England
and
and
colleagues
me
want
to
comment
as
that.
The
English
companies
are
English
employers
and
who
pay
the
apprenticeship
where
they
can
then
tap
into
a
digital
process
of
accessing
funds.
Limited
funds
to
train
in
very
specific
areas.
R
Now,
that's
very,
very
different
from
the
CIT
VLab
in
a
diversity
that
we
bring
in
terms
of
additional
leverage,
additional
value.
So
I
think
that
is
something
obviously
working
with
employers,
and
that
needs
to
be
done
in
this
space
just
to
make
sure
that
there
was
a
bit
of
a
level
playing
field
and
we
will
we
will
undoubtedly-
and
we
are
under
pressure
from
your
tier
one,
customers
asking
us-
you
know
why
we're
paying
to
levies.
Why
do
we
need
to
be
a
construction
leave
it?
S
The
industry
are
small
and
micro,
so
they
don't
and
the
CIT
be
levy
provides
a
different
form
of
support
to
the
sector,
which
involve
is
invaluable
to
Scotland.
So
Scotland
actually
receives
back
from
the
industry
training
board,
far
more
than
it
puts
in,
because
it
trains
and
rightfully
so
and
CIT
B,
and
have
the
challenge
of
being
able
to
communicate.
S
C
Questions
the
construction
index
website
highlighted
in
2017
I
think
it
was
that
94
percent
of
Scottish
respondents
were
dissatisfied
the
aspects
of
CITV.
So
my
question
is
what
needs
to
change
to
make
the
government's
and
operation
of
CIT
be
more
accountable
to
Scottish
CIT,
be
aware,
appeals.
It's.
R
Interesting
statistic:
I'll
throw
another
statistic
back
when
we
carry
their
last
consensus,
Paul
in
Scotland,
we
had
over
80
percent
response
happy
with
what
CIT
be
doing
in
terms
of
its
business,
so
I
think
in
terms
of
who
you
speak
to
and
what
starts
you
use
it's
interesting.
What
the
responses
are
governance
model.
Basically,
as
changing
structure
is
changing
it's
in
the
public
domain,
we
are
done
sizing
our
headcount.
R
That's
a
reaction
to
what
employers
and
governments
and
institutions
have
been
telling
us
for
a
number
of
years
and
we
became
too
large
too
complex
too
bloated
one
would
say
so.
We
are
reducing
our
headcount
and
reducing
what
we
are
doing
and
we
will
concentrate
within
our
key
three
operational
areas,
which
are
training
and
development,
careers
and
standards
and
qualifications,
and
everything
else
we
have
been
doing
over
the
decades
will
be
moved
aside.
Either.
It's
sourced
or
sold
off
in
terms
of
future
operating
model
timeline
is
to
achieve
that
by
2020.
R
This
does
not
mean
by
any
stretch
of
the
imagination,
we
will
be
investing
less
within
skills
and
training
and
certainly
not
will
be
investing
more
with
the
Nashville
area,
particularly
in
Scotland
because
of
the
research
that
was
carried
out
last
year.
So
that's
so
the
so.
The
changes
within
fundamentally
the
back
wiring,
the
back
engine
of
the
business.
R
T
Ci
t
be
feted
elephant
in
Scotland.
We
rely
on
the
ATB
to
sheep
and
standards
and
frameworks
which
say
to
the
free
month
within
which
qualifications
are
then
developed,
and
we
rely
on
them
to
work
with
industry
to
identify
where
new
technology
has
changed
and
qualifications
and
the
standard
themselves.
You
know
which
is
National
Occupational
standard,
which
governance
which
governs
the
jobs
and
and
job
descriptions
except
X,
800
kept
up
to
date.
So
for
me,
there's
a
definite
relevance
in
Scotland.
T
It's
like
any
organization.
You
know
the
challenges,
you
know
to
do
more
with
less
and
be
better
and
faster
and
more
responsive,
and
you
know
I
think
see.
Itb
are
developing
towards
that.
You
know
they're.
Looking
at
the
things
that
the
are
the
core
activities
and
they're
going
to
do
them,
you
know
better
and
as
we
go
forward,
you
know
we
spoke
about
the
negative
perceptions
of
the
industry.
Cit,
be
you
know
we're
going
to
be
doing
more.
They
do
a
huge
amount
of
work
in
relation
to
diversity
and
they
work
with
us.
T
We
have
a
five
years
equality's
plan
and
they
work
very
closely
with
with
with
us.
In
SDS,
as
do
our
other
partners
to
try
and
change
some
of
those,
you
know
entrenched,
behaviors
and
and
patterns,
and
so
you
know
there's
a
huge
task
for
them.
You
know
to
rise.
The
challenge
on
and
I
think
you
know
it's
exciting
that
you
know
the
sheep
but
they're
trying
to
get
into
for
2020.
You
know
should
really
you
know,
help
us
make
a
difference
in
Scotland
and
make
it
a
much
more
stronger
and
sector.
C
That's
good
to
hear
that
there's
new
governance
arrangements
coming
in
so
there
must
have
been
concerns
you
had
to
address
with
on
your
membership.
But
my
next
question
is
how
much
collaboration
is
that
between
the
two
bodies,
given
that
you
both
are
responsible
for
providing
apprenticeships
I?
Think.
T
There's
great
collaboration
and
as
I
mentioned
in
a
number
of
times,
see
ITB
are
you
know
using
our
digital
platform
and
as
they
digitize
the
effectivity,
you
know
them
the
better
place.
You
know
to
to
be
much
more
responsive.
They
help
us.
You
know,
as
we
try
to
get
enough
information
and
relevant
information
and
up-to-date
information
onto
our
platforms,
tell
young
people
to
make
informed
choices
about
the
future
and
the
parents
and
teachers
etc.
So,
yes,
there's
a
huge
amount
of
collaboration.
You
know
the
regional
plans
that
they
have.
You
know
we
can't
do.
T
C
Just
before
you
came
on
muscle
fuse
and
the
reason
for
asking
that
question
is
some
of
the
written
submissions
have
received
from
a
Glasgow
Caledonian
University
in
particular,
said
there
was
a
little
evidence
of
any
collaboration
between
the
two
bodies
and
they
also
said
as
far
as
Scotland's
concerned,
CIB
t
CIT
B
was
out
of
touch
and
meeting
the
needs
of
the
industry.
So
you're
telling
is
one
thing,
but
their
submissions
were
fired
from
another
organization
to.
T
Now
construction
has
been.
You
know
huge
supporter
of
that,
because
they
have
benefited
from
people
moving
from
oil
and
gas
industry
into
construction.
We
have
with
an
adopt
and
plan
to
ship
scheme
with
CIT,
be
again,
you
know
to
try
to
change.
You
know
tackle
some
of
the
perceptions
that
you
know
and
an
apprentice
can
only
you
know
complete
that
a
plane
to
ship
if
that
unemployment,
when
it
comes
to
doing
the
skills
test,
you
know
we've
challenged
through
CIT,
be
you
know,
trade
organizations
tell
low.
T
You
know
some
of
those
qualifications
or
the
skills
test
to
be
done.
You
know
six
months
before
the
end,
because
essentially
they
have
the
underpinning
knowledge
and
the
vacation
or
capability
and
competence
to
do
that.
At
that
point,
so
you
know
I
would
say
you
know.
Perhaps
you
know
some
of
the
submissions
you
know
perhaps
didn't
understand
the
complexity
and
the
depth
of
partnership,
backing
that
we
have
but
I
would
say
from
an
STS
perspective.
You
know
it
is
a
very
good
collaboration.
R
It's
just
really
emphasize
the
point
that,
as
you
well
know,
skills
training
and
education
of
devolved
across
the
three
nations
and
we
are
moving
our
business
model
to
reflect
that.
So
we
align
ourselves
with
public
sector
partners
to
deliver
government
policy.
Ostensibly
we
don't
create
the
CIT
B
policy
within
three
nations.
We
are
laying
ourselves
with
what
government
wants
us
to
do
in
terms
of
priorities,
and
we
make
sure
that
is
communicated
to
an
employer
customer
base
to
make
sure
they
know
we're
up
there.
R
Money
is
being
invested
with
them,
so
in
terms
of
their
layman's
with
organizations
like
SDS
and
there's
other
public
sector
bodies.
We
have
agreements
with.
They
are
not
putting
in
place
shortly
as
well.
It's
to
deliver
the
the
policy
set
by
government,
it's
not
to
work
in
a
vacuum
or
a
bubble,
and
we
cannot
do
that
in
isolation.
Just.
C
R
Sex
college
networks,
which
we
are
withdrawing
from
in
terms
of
direct
delivery.
We
are
not
withdrawing
from
the
training
being
provided.
What
that
means
is.
We
will
not
deliver
with
the
scaffolding
training
and
in
Shannon
moving
forward.
So
that's
part
of
our
operating
model.
We
will
find
a
new
partner
and
enable
them
to
deliver
that
scaffolding
training.
So
we
have
publicly
said
we
will
not
be
withdrawing
from
any
specialist
training
in
any
nation
until
a
better
alternative
can
be
found
within
the
marketplace.
R
R
We
have
a
tremendous
Fe
network
in
Scotland,
for
example,
with
infrastructure
with
assets
with
skills
I'm,
not
saying
they
will
pack
up
and
Shannon,
but
there
are
organizations
out
there
we
believe
can
do
as
well,
if
not
better
than
CIT
B,
so
our
overall
model
still
withdraw
from
that,
but
not
to
do
that,
the
jeopardy
of
the
training
being
provided.
You
cannot
stop
scaffolded.
Being
trained
in
this
country,
it
would
be
no
be
disastrous.
R
A
number
of
other
formations
with
an
in
Shannon
are
being
outsourced
to
other
organizations,
and
they
are
in
the
process
of
colleagues
having
conversations
with
those
new
organisations
to
decide.
We
are,
they
may
or
may
not
be
located
in
the
future.
So
I
cannot
comment
on
whether
they
will
go
to
York
or
not.
Alright,.
A
M
You
no
I'll
keep
it
brief.
I
wanted
to
come
back
to
the
observation
made
by
a
couple
of
panel
members
that
Scotland
doesn't
do
enough
to
train
older
people,
either
in
work
or
or
or
between
jobs.
We've
heard
about
the
role
of
apprenticeships
in
addressing
this
gap,
but
what
about
part-time
college
places,
how
important
our
part-time
college
places
for
retraining
older
workers
in
the
sector
and
are
there
enough
college
places
available
to
meet
this
issue
and
in
use?
M
R
Think
in
terms
of
the
investment
that
goes
into
that
cool,
hot,
we'll
call
them,
for
example,
it's
a
bit
priorities
and
I'm
sure
Fiona
will
comment
and
there's
better
than
myself,
then
and
part
of
its
relative
for
government.
The
present
time
is
16
to
19
year
old
in
terms
of
modern
apprenticeships,
for
example,
your
employers
are
saying
they
would
be
more
than
happy
and,
and
many
of
them
would
be
delighted
to
what,
with
older
entrants
into
the
workplace,
the
the
funding
model.
R
The
present
time
makes
it
difficult,
because
the
reality
is
when
you
have
a
25
year
olds
entering
in
to
construction
on
an
apprenticeship
rate
in
terms
of
wages,
it's
not
attractive,
so
so
we
have
keen
to
explore.
Is
that
more?
We
can
do
in
this
space
to
make
an
attractive
proposition
for
an
older
individual
to
enter,
but
the
present
time
in
terms
of
more
than
friendship,
swing
and
fee,
or
nothing
I'm
right
in
saying
government's
priorities.
Are
that
younger
cohorts
and
that's
where
we
concentrate
our
resources?
Our
present.
T
Policy
is
to
give
young
people
the
best
start
they
can
into
careers.
However,
I
thought
of
the
Modern
Apprenticeship
program
is
actually
25
year
olds,
plus
and,
as
I
mentioned
earlier
on,
many
of
those
individuals
are
doing
leadership
and
management,
so
you
know
they're
progressing
their
careers
and
using
the
apprenticeship.
Employers
are
using
the
apprenticeship
for
about
force
development,
so
many
of
them
are
doing
labor
for,
in
you
know,
a
construction
site
management,
for
example.
T
Many
of
them
are
retraining
from
other
industries
and
taking
the
opportunity,
but
it's
down
to
the
employers
and
the
support
the
employers
you
know
make
in
terms
of
you
know
which
costs
etc.
You
know
when
an
individual
is
maybe
not
as
productive
at
the
start
of
that
period
as
they
are.
They
move
through
the
training
and
so
I
thought
of
a
plane.
Ships
currently
are
between
two
five-plus.
A
Thank
you
very
much,
I'm
afraid
we,
we
have
other
business.
We
have
to
deal
with
before
one
o'clock
and
members
also
other
matters
to
attend
to
in
Parliament
and
if
there's
anything,
you
wish
to
add
to
evidence
today
on
any
of
these
points
that
we've
perhaps
not
had
time
to
cover
fully
or
to
come
in
on
some
of
these
last
questions,
then
please
do
feel
free
to
write
in
to
the
committee
and
that
will
be
treated
as
part
of
your
evidence.
So
apologies
that
we
need
to
cut
things
short
there.