►
Description
1. Decision on taking business in private: The Committee will decide whether to take item 3 in private.
2. Draft Energy Strategy: The Committee will take evidence from-
Ed Craig, Head of Enterprise & Innovation, Edinburgh Centre for Carbon Innovation;
Teresa Bray, Chief Executive, Changeworks;
Elizabeth Leighton, Policy Advisor, Existing Homes Alliance Scotland;
Janet Archibald, Energy Engineer, Energy Management, Fife Council;
and then from—
David Handley, Head of Regulation, SGN;
Keith MacLean, Chair, UKERC Advisory Board;
Stuart Haszeldine, Professor of Carbon Capture and Storage, University of Edinburgh;
Fiona Goodenough, Hydrogen Project Manager, Scottish Cities Alliance.
3. Draft Energy Strategy: The Committee will consider evidence heard at today's meeting.
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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A
A
We
have
three
witnesses
with
us
today
and
may
say
to
the
witnesses
that
the
sound
desk
will
deal
with
the
sound
system,
so
no
need
to
press
buttons
or
do
anything
apart
from
speak
into
the
microphone
I.
Ask
committee
members
and
witnesses
to
try
to
be
as
succinctly
and
answers
as
possible
and
witnesses
don't
have
to
answer
every
question,
but
you
may
wish
to
come
in
on
one
questions
as
themes
develop.
B
I'm
Teresa
Bray
and
the
chief
executives
change
works.
We
act
with
an
environmental
charity
delivering
a
range
of
services.
We
act
as
the
managing
agent
for
quite
a
number
of
the
area
based
schemes
both
from
the
local
authorities
in
the
southeast.
We
also
deliver
home
energy
Scotland,
both
in
the
southeast
Scotland
and
the
Highlands
and
Islands,
and
part
of
the
consortium
that
delivers
warmer
home
Scotland.
C
Hello,
I'm
Elizabeth
Layton
and
policy
advisor
with
the
existing
home
to
which
is
a
coalition
of
housing,
anti-poverty
Environmental
bodies,
as
well
as
business
working
together
to
argue
for
greater
investment
and
effort
into
improving
the
energy
performance
of
our
existing
housing
stock.
To
achieve
both
the
eradication
of
fuel,
poverty
and
meeting
of
our
climate
change
targets,.
D
My
name
is
Janet
Archibald
I
am
the
energy
engineer
for
Fife
Council
I
work
on
the
non
domestic
side
of
energy
management,
mainly
looking
at
delivering
energy
efficiency
projects
across
schools,
primary
schools,
nurseries
and
care
homes,
leisure,
centers
and
bike
and
I've.
That's
been
my
main
area
of
work
over
the
last
over
most
of
the
time
of
worked
at
the
council,
which
is
since
2008
and.
A
Well,
thank
you
very
much
to
all
of
you
for
coming
in
today.
I
would
like
to
start
with
a
question
about
current
domestic
energy
efficiency
schemes
and
also
current
business
and
public
sector
support,
and
just
wondering
if
you
had
comments
on
what
currently
works.
Well,
what
aspects
or
existing
schemes
might
benefit
from
change,
and
also
what
challenges
for
these
should
be
addressed
by
the
draft
energy
strategy.
I,
don't
know
who
would
like
to
have
start
to
either
brave
yeah.
B
B
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
has
worked
well
is
well
first
to
each
one's
are
getting
lots
and
cavity's
insulated,
and
we
are
moving
towards
the
more
external
wall
insulation
which
has
been,
though
we
talked
about
them
being
area
based
they've,
actually
been
at
very
small
scale,
but
have
worked
well.
We've
had
mixed
ten-year
estates,
sort
of
particularly
your
system,
built
estates
where
there's
been
a
lot
of
bike
to
by
the
combination
of
social
housing
with
the
private
sector.
B
Those
area
based
schemes
have
worked
well,
but
they
have
only
been
tackling
those
who
are
probably
more
like
to
be
in
fuel
poverty.
Our
largest
energy
users
are
not
those
in
fuel
poverty
and
if
we're
going
to
be
meeting
the
climate
change
targets,
we've
got
to
be
starting
to
engage
with
some
vapor
states
that
the
Able's
pay
market-
it's
part,
or
maybe
it's
better
to
say
it's,
the
not
fuel
pour
because,
obviously
not
everybody
has
got
excess
funds
there.
How
do
we
tackle
that
which
not
really
engage
with
that?
B
C
We
have
a
more
recently
the
warmer
home
Scotland
program,
as
seen
as
as
really
a
gold
standard
in
terms
of
performance
and
providing
quality
assurance,
but
also
delivering
on
other
co
benefits
such
as
local
jobs
in
communities,
and
so
that
it's
seen
as
a
model
that
can
be
built
upon.
We
also
have
a
very
good
nationally
funded
advice
service
with
Home,
Energy
Scotland
and
again.
You
know
that
can
be
built
upon
to
incorporate
some
of
the
elements
of
behavior
change
at
nice
and
direct
support
to
Pete
to
householders.
C
So
if
we
are,
if
the
bright
policies
are
put
in
place
along
with
long
term
budgets,
then
that
certainty
can
be
provided
and
I
think
the
market
will
respond
and
householders
will
respond.
The
other
aspect,
that's
missing,
is
its
demand.
You
know,
people
don't
want
energy
efficiency
enough,
and
you
know
there
are
lots
of
reasons
for
that.
But
part
of
it
is
is
market
failure
that
the
energy,
the
costs
of
energy
aren't
really
the
social
costs
aren't
incorporated
in
the
price.
D
Can
only
speak
on
the
non
domestic
side
and
I
think
the
problems
you've
got
are
very,
very
challenging
I've
done
my
best
and
to
do
as
many
projects
as
possible
that
are
economic
to
do
on
the
non
domestic
side
and
going
forward
we're
going
to
have
to
start
doing
things
that
don't
actually,
from
my
business
case,
point
of
view.
So
we're
going
to
need
more
money
to
be
able
to
do
them
and
and
what
you,
what
you
can
actually
make
in
terms
of
cuts
to
your
energy.
Your
carbon
emissions
are
to
a
school.
D
Even
if
you
do
the
lights
and
you
do
as
much
as
you
can
on
the
heating
side.
You're
still
not
going
to
get
down
to
the
targets
that
you
have
set
for
yourselves.
The
barriers
are
enormous,
I
think
it's
very
not
really
addressed
by
what
I've
seen
to
date
in
everything
that's
been
put
forward
and,
in
our
case
we're
looking
at
keeping
our
buildings,
wind
and
water
tight
and
doing
the
essential
maintenance
and
trying
to
clear
maintenance.
Backlogs
I
have
to
compete
against
that.
D
When
I'm
looking
to
push
energy
efficiency,
I've
got
to
compete
against
roof
repairs
or
doing
extensions
on
buildings,
because
there's
more
children
in
an
area
or
that
kind
of
thing
and
the
barriers
that
we
have
are
things
like
asbestos
with
our
buildings
listed
or
not.
We
have
a
lot
of
buildings
that
don't
have
wet
systems.
D
That
is
you
can't
that
they're
heated
by
daily
direct
electric
heating,
so
you
can't
substitute
other
kinds
of
fuels
unless
you
put
in
some
clean
a
wet
system
into
the
building
and
the
time
skills
you've
got
are
very,
very
challenging,
as
well
as
well
a
seat
for
doing
the
Pathfinder
project.
We
found
that
there
wasn't
enough
time
to
get
everything
ready
for
the
whole
thing
to
be
done
in
the
time
scale
that
was
given.
We
need
longer
than
one
year
to
plan
and
execute
projects.
C
First
I'd
like
to
say
that,
with
the
energy
strategy,
we
really
welcome
that
the
the
energy
strategy
takes
a
whole
system
view
that
it
is
looking
at
energy
demand
and
energy
generation
together.
I
think
there
still
is
some
way
to
go
with
changing
the
the
culture
around
our
energy
policy.
When
you,
when
you
go
to
meetings
about
the
energy
strategy,
it
still
seems
you
know,
75,
80
percent
of
it
is
still
all
about
the
generation
side
and
growth
and
jobs
and
and
all
related
to
that.
C
What
they
are
predicting
is
a
growth
in
heat
demand
and
because
there
there
will
be
a
15
they're,
projecting
a
15
percent
growth
in
heat
demand
and
yet
only
cutting.
You
know
nine
nine
percent
off
of
that,
and
we
believe
there
should
be
no
growth
at
all
and
indeed
a
reduct.
There
needs
to
be
a
reduction
over
that
period.
Research
that
that
we've
called
upon
by
AEA
ricardo
suggests
that
there
needs
to
be
a
reduction
in
heat
demand
of
30
percent
across
the
building
stock
as
part
of
the
energy
mix.
C
You
know
when
we're
talking
about
energy
mix.
It
isn't
just
where
the
supply
side,
its
energy
efficiency
playing
a
part
of
that,
and
so
in
our
response
on
the
energy
strategy
as
well
as
would
see,
we've
called
upon
the
government
to
spell
out
what
they
see
the
energy
mix
as
going
forward
and
what
proportion
energy
efficiency
needs
to
play
to
be
meeting
renewables
targets,
climate
change
targets
in
order
to
make
it
affordable,
because
after
all,
the
cheapest
form
of
energy
is
going
to
be
the
energy
that
we
don't
use.
B
The
vast
majority
of
energy
efficiency
projects
are
a
positive
payback
period
and
so
a
very
sound
investment
to
be
undertaking
both
for
individual
households,
attitude
in
the
long
term
and
also
for
the
private
sector.
I.
Think
part
of
that
is
that
we
do
need
to
look
and
take
longer-term
timescales
to
look
at
the
issues
because
to
get
those
paybacks.
B
If
we
also
look
at
the
carbonation
decarbonization
in
the
long
term,
we've
got
to
find
a
solution
for
the
buildings
which
we
live
in
are
going
to
be
still
be
there
in
2050,
and
so
we're
going
to
have
to
deal
with
those
buildings.
The
workplaces
are
going
to
be
there
unless
we
do
start
taking
a
planned
approach
and
dealing
with
it.
B
Now
we're
going
to
hit
major
problems
in
the
future
they're
having
a
planned
approach,
sort
of
whether
it's
going
to
be
improving
the
energy
efficiency
properties
or
also
looking
at
alternative
methods
of
heating,
whether
it's
district
heating
or
we
do
decarbonization
of
the
gas
network.
These
will
take
a
long
I'm
infrastructure
projects
do
take
a
very
long
time.
So
the
economic
stability
of
the
long-term
we've
got
to
be
start
planning
ahead.
You.
D
Asked
whether
it's
consistent
with
growth
I
would
say
that
energy
projects
and
energy
efficiency,
work
of
all
kinds
are
consistent
with
growth.
I
feel
that
the
projects
that
we've
undertaken
in
faith
Council
have
been
stimulating
for
the
local
economy,
because
every
time
you
do
a
lighting
project
or
cavity
wall
insulation
or
any
kind
of
project
you
are
M.
D
You
want
your
future
to
come
from
a
local
source
as
much
as
you
can
and
we've
we
specified
that
we
want
as
much
local
weed
as
possible
and
so
that
wood
has
to
be
obviously
grown
and
harvested
and
chopped
and
prepared
and
the
local
environment.
So
that
is
consistent
with
economic
activity
and
the
local
area,
where
we're
slightly
sure
struggling
is
procurement,
opens
up
to
the
entire
Europe
really
and
if
we
could
specify
something
could
come
a
slightly
shorter
distance
in
some
way.
D
That
would
help
and
I
think
you
should
be
trying
to
reduce
to
that
demand
as
much
as
you
can
before
you're
doing
renewables
generation,
renewable
generation
it
that
that's
a
great
thing.
But
it's
you
want
to
try
and
reduce
the
demand
that
you've
got
as
much
as
you
can
before
you
start
doing,
generation
of
any
kind
and.
E
But
it's
about
delivery,
because
I
noticed
that
in
the
in
the
papers
submitted,
it
states
that
we
believe
there
should
be
an
independent
body
with
with
the
remit
for
delivery
of
c
p--
established
through
the
warm
homes
bill.
So
I
wonder
maybe,
first
of
all
whether
it
Elizabeth
Layton
could
elaborate
on
that
and
what
that
would
look
like
and
if
there
are
equivalent
bodies
already
existing
in
other
areas
of
policy.
E
C
Yes,
happy
to
to
speak
on
that
point.
This
is
something
we've
we've
thought
about
over
the
last
last
few
months
and
then
then,
in
more
detail,
once
we've
built
in
in
depth
with
the
consultation
and
and
we've
thought
that
to
actually
deliver.
This
is
such
a
massive
infrastructure
project,
and
rightly
so.
We
are
talking
about
our
entire
building
sock
and
very
ambitious
changes
that
we
foresee
that
that
need
to
happen.
C
For
both,
you
know
social
and
environmental
reasons,
and
we
can
gain
so
much,
but
it's
just
not
going
to,
and
we've
heard
about
some
of
the
challenges.
Already,
it's
not
going
to
happen
unless
it
is
given
the
the
right
profile,
the
leadership
and
the
resources
to
deliver
it,
and
we
think
it
just
it
isn't
going
to
happen
by
being
on
the
edge
of
a
few
civil
servants
desks,
they're
working
hard
I,
don't
you
know
I,
don't
quibble
with
that,
but
it
is
it.
C
Isn't
there
a
number
one
job
that
they
have
to
do
day
in
and
day
out
they
have
other
responsibilities
and
and
they
they
have
to
keep
within
that
their
their
portfolio.
But
once
government
sets
the
targets
and
you
have
the
the
framework
the
policies
are
set
by
government
with
input
from
from
the
Parliament.
Then
we
think
it's
the
place
for
an
independent
body
to
deliver
on
that
strategy
and
to
report
on
that
strategy,
because
it
with
such
a
project,
that's
lasting
over
several
administrations.
C
We're
talking
up
to
you
know,
twenty
years,
twenty,
thirty,
eight,
that's
a
long
time!
Multi!
You
know
big
budgets.
The
government
is
estimated
ten
billion,
but
I
think
it
will
probably
be
much
more
when
you're
talking
about
the
entire
housing
stock,
possibly
a
role
for
regulation,
research,
innovation.
C
We
had
something
similar
with
Commonwealth,
Games
you'd
say:
well,
those
are
events,
you
know
they
they
might
be
different,
but
they
are.
They
were
multi-year
projects
with
with
a
project
cycle
of
development
through
to
achieving
benefits
after
after
the
event
and
another
example
would
be
Transport
Scotland
that
was
created
to
deliver
big
transport
projects.
For
the
very
reasons
I
have
laid
out
that
you
needed
to
have
it
separate
separated
from
the
day-to-day
jobs
of
the
civil
servants.
So
we
think
the
warm
Holmes
bill
provides
an
opportunity
to
create
such
a
Bobby.
C
It
could
be
similar
to
looking
at
international
examples
something
like
a
Danish
agent,
Energy
Agency,
which
fulfills
many
of
these
functions
so
I
think
that
is
something
that
should
be
explored
in
depth
over
the
next.
You
know
months,
looking
at
the
seep
consultation
responses
and
look
at
options
for
how
it
could
be
delivered
through
through
an
independent
body.
We
haven't,
given
it
a
name.
I
think
that
is
something
that
could
be
explored,
but
we
think
it
would
be
well
worth
it.
F
B
B
Local
produce
of
a
got,
a
key
strategic
role
in
actually
understanding
their
areas,
but
the
level
of
technical
skills
and
expertise
that,
as
expected
of
local
authorities,
especially
in
the
cash-strapped
times
where
you're
transferred
the
housing
aware
thing
from
a
local
authority,
is
putting
a
lot
of
pressures
there.
There
are
a
lot
of
technical
issues
associated
with
refurbishing,
both
our
housing
stock
and
the
non
domestic
sector
there
as
well
and
as
need
to
ensure
that
we
have
the
right
standard
set
up
that
we've
got
true
understanding
of
energy
performance.
B
We
look
at
procurement
there,
the
some
of
the
contracts
that
have
been
proposed
for
Excel
they're,
looking
at
service
contracts
when
we've
got
actually
building
contracts,
we've
seen
what
happens
if
you
don't
have
strong
managing
agents
taking
place
with
areas
such
as
the
schools
in
Edinburgh,
where
there
wasn't
the
control
of
those
PFI
schemes.
Quality
is
such
a
big
issue.
We've
got
to
ensure
that
standards
are
set
there
for
quality
that
the
infrastructure
is
in
place.
There
could
be
a
lot
of
our
different
methods
of
actually
delivering,
but
setting
those
overall
standards.
B
We
will
need
to
ensure,
because
if
we
make
mistakes
and
we
really
impact
on
the
performance
of
our
housing
stock,
we're
going
to
be
living
with
that
for
decades
and
what
is
that
going
to
be
as
places
to
live
and
make
your
home
in?
If
we
have
do
things
well
within
a
non
domestic
sector
as
well,
it's
going
to
be
in
millions
of
different
places.
We
are
making
mistakes,
we've
got
to
ensure
we
get
things
liked
and
I
think
that
can
lead
to
us
being
too
cautious
at
times.
B
If
we
don't
provide
the
right
support
mechanisms
to
put
in
place
to
ensure
that
we're
not
reinventing
the
wheel,
we
share
best
practice
that
we
ensuring
that
we
consider
the
both
the
technological
challenges,
but
also
the
people
living
there.
So
that's
overall
guidance,
that's
required.
Is
it
may
well
be
that
local
authorities
are
involved
in
actual
delivering
of
it,
but
they
need
to
be
able
to
call
on
that
level
of
support
or
as
we're
setting
people
up
to
fail,
and
we
shouldn't
be
doing
that.
D
Thinking
about
the
idea
of
an
independent
delivery
body,
I
think
it's
worth
pursuing
this
much
further,
because
in
a
case
of
a
local
authorities
such
as
ourselves,
with
non-domestic
buildings,
stork
and
so
on,
and
we
have
limited
resources
to
be
able
to
devote
to
energy,
energy
management
or
energy
efficiency
projects.
As
I
said
earlier,
they
do
compete
with
every
other
maintenance
task
that
needs
to
be
done
with
a
school
or
a
leisure
center
and
the
idea
of
the
political
but
the
delivery
body
it
would.
As
Elizabeth
said
it
would
be
independent
of
the
political
cycle.
D
We
felt
in
first
case
that
there
was
a
very
great
reluctance
to
commit
to
budget
prior
to
a
recent
election,
because
new
councilors
really
wanted
to.
You
know,
risk
it
before
their
election
and
then
you've
only
got
see
another
four
or
five
years
you're
going
to
have
another
election.
So
the
timescale
of
this
grand
project
of
reducing
our
emissions
is
we
we
longer
than
any
electoral
cycle,
let
alone
any
budget
setting.
And
even
if
you
did
have
an
independent
political
brought
delivery
body,
you
would
still
need
quail
of
local
authority
resource,
for
example.
D
D
So
you
would
get
a
very
much
of
a
patchwork
quilt
of
effort.
There
would
be
a
different
amount
of
effort
for
each
local
authority,
depending
on
the
political
nature
of
that
particular
local
authority.
In
faith
council
case
we've
been
very
lucky,
we've
been
driven
from
the
top,
which
says
we
will
do
this,
but
I
can
sense
the
change
of
direction.
D
So
if
you
had
an
independent
delivery
body,
you
wouldn't
have
this
great
split
of
all
different
people.
All
trying
to
do
deliver
this
grand
ambition
in
a
slightly
different
way.
There
are
thing
about
an
independent
delivery
body.
This
is
good
and
bad.
Is
that
when
you
get
a
different
body,
that's
doing
it
you've
got
maybe
a
lack
of
ownership.
You've
got
to
be
able
to
own
the
projects
that
need
to
be
done.
G
If
thanks
convener
I
mean
I
think
following
on
from
from
that
previous
Lane
of
thinking,
if
we
are
hoping
to
raise
standards
for
buildings,
and
the
question
is
how
we
go
about
do,
how
do
we
go
about
that
and
in
particular
suppose,
for
existing
buildings
and
so
I'm
thinking
both
domestic
and
non
domestic?
And
how
do
we
do
this?
Do
we
impose
regulations
and
see
that
every
time
a
building
is
sold,
it's
got
to
meet
the
standard
or
the
verifying
or
a
tax
incentive,
or
just
that
whole
area
of?
How
do
we
take
this
forward?
G
C
Yes,
the
Alliance
is,
has
long
been
a
supporter
of
use
of
regulation
to
drive
standards
forward
and
to
influence
the
market
to
influence
market
transformation
so
that
we
as
a
society,
value
energy
efficiency
more
on
you,
and
that
would
be,
for
example,
that
would
be
reflected
in
the
property
market.
So
in
that
that's
already
starting
to
occur
to
some
degree
where
you
can
get
a
premium
for
say,
an
energy
performance
certificate
a
or
be
rated
property
and
you'd
get
am
the
opposite
of
premium
deficit
for
one
that's
an
F
or
a
G.
C
G
C
C
In
terms
of
you
know
how
your
house
performs,
but
also
what
measures
should
be
installed,
but
I
think
we
should
be
aware
that
it's
about
the
theoretical
energy
performance
of
the
building,
it's
not
about
the
actual
energy
performance
of
the
building
and
so
I
think
for
a
it
is.
It
can
be
used
for
regulation.
It
is
proposed
to
be
used
for
the
in
consultation
on
the
private
rented
sector
and
what
what
the
government
is
suggested
is
adapting
the
assessment
slightly
so
that
it
makes
a
more
bespoke
proposal
of
what
is
the
pathway.
G
G
Probably
the
main
point
and
the
other
point
I
wanted.
You
said
there
was
a
premium
that
if
people
do
invest
in
the
property
they're
getting
a
higher
price
I
mean,
does
it
actually
March?
So
if
I
spend
5,000
pounds,
improving
my
hose,
will
I
get
5,000
pounds
more
when
I
sell
it
or
how
does
that
work?
Well,.
C
You
know
it's
not
not
a
big
deal
really
they're
they're,
common-sense
measures
where
the
payback
is
very
good
in
two
three
four
years
time,
you're
paid
back
and
then
it's
money
in
your
pocket.
After
that,
I
can't
say
how
there
have
been
various
studies
that
have
been
done
about
how
the
property
market
is
responding
to
the
energy
performance
certificate
ratings,
but
I
can't
say
exactly
how
that
would
work
in
Scotland
against
the
standards
that
are
proposed.
But
you
know
something
some
research
that
could
be
done.
Okay,.
B
Regulations
so
much
part
of
the
suite
of
a
delivery.
You
have
to
have
both
your
your
carrots
and
your
stick,
because
I
think,
if
there
isn't
regulation,
we
are
not
going
to
hit
a
significant
proportion
and
often
those
people
in
private
sector.
It's
correct
that
we're
addressing
those
areas
first,
since
those
often
the
worst
properties
in
terms
of
what
would
be
the
financial
impact
once
you've
got.
Regulation
and
people
have
to
then
sort
the
problems
out.
There
will
be
a
decrease
in
property
values,
because
you'll
know
that
they'll
have
to
sort
the
worst.
B
Currently
you
need
to
put
in
a
damp
proof
course
or
something
out
that
the
mortgage
lenders
withhold
funds.
It
will
be
reflected
in
the
price
when
regulation
comes
along.
I
think
you
do
have
to
start
looking
at
the
owner
occupier
sector
because
they're
such
changes
there
and
actually
encouraging
people
to
think
about
their
homes
as
somewhere.
That
they've
got
to
invest
in
not
just
about
putting
in
new
kitchens
and
bathrooms,
but
making
them
profit.
Homes
that
are
going
to
be
fit
to
live
in
throughout
the
lifetime
of
the
occupants
and
regulation
is
important.
B
D
D
We
chose
to
get
energy
audit
reports
at
the
same
time
of
the
EPC
s,
because
the
surveyor
would
be
on
site.
He
would
be
able
to
write
report
or
what
could
be
done
to
make
improvements
while,
while
he
was
there
as
a
result,
we
ended
up
with
279
energy
audit
reports
and
I
off
that
we
got
1250
projects
identified
in
those
reports.
D
Out
of
those
we
found
that
804
would
pay
back
in
less
than
10
years.
So
from
that
we
further
investigated
616
projects
and
out
of
that
we've
completed
306
projects,
you
get
a
really
trician.
You
start
off
looking
at
what
your
overall
stock,
what
we're?
Where
are
you?
What
can
you
do
so
regulations?
Groov?
All
that?
Having
said
that,.
D
Fully
half
what
most
of
our
property
is:
energy;
okay,
so
we're
talking
nearly
half
of
it
and
that's
nearly
200
meters,
two
hundred
thousand
meters,
squared
of
property
being
a
G
rated.
If
we
take
an
F
as
well,
that's
50%
of
our
non
domestic
stock,
for
which
we've
got
energy
performance
certificates.
If
you
take
everything
that
we've
got
II,
that's
nearly
three
quarters
of
our
property.
If
we
were
to
improve
to
nearly
D,
we
only
have
about
quarter
of
our
stock,
which
would
actually
meet
the
the
regulations.
D
D
G
D
If
you
make
something
law,
you
make
something
happen
if
you're
talking
asbestos
regulations
or
Legionnaires
disease
or
gas
safety
regulations
or
anything
along
those
lines,
if
it
is
the
law,
then
we
have
to
find
the
money
for
it.
The
money
has
to
be
found.
The
question
is:
where
is
the
money
gonna
come
from
it?
No,
it
can't
necessarily
come
from
the
local
authority
because
we're
trying
to
keep
the
roof
over
the
buildings.
D
D
G
H
We
move
one
of
us
what
he
asked
a
quick
question
about,
and
non-domestic
buildings
from
China,
Archibald
and
and
your
submission.
You
said
that
thousands
of
new
buildings
are
using
double
the
energy
that
they
should,
because
developers
are
massively
overestimating
the
efficiency
and
you're
going
to
see.
We
believe
that
there
may
also
be
a
need
for
punitive
measures
to
penalize
developers
and
designers,
who
deliberately
overstate
the
future
performance
of
a
building.
D
D
Am
I'm
not
sure
it's
deliberate,
an
overestimation
I
think
you
start
with
this
theoretical
model
you
put
in
your
drawing
all
the
dimensions
of
your
of
your
building.
You
a
true
beauty
properties
to
all
of
the
walls,
the
floors,
the
ceilings
you
put
in
your
systems.
You
do
your
very
best
to
get
the
right
out
the
right
answers
out
as
to
what
the
building
will
do
at
how
will
perform
it's
not
necessarily
deliberate
that
it
doesn't
then
do
that
and
we
demolished
one
of
our
schools
and
built
another
school
on
its
place.
D
The
school
that
we
put
up
in
its
place
is
a
rated
as
a
plus
as
performance
as
not
a
plus,
not
a
rated,
and
it's
really
difficult.
You
know,
and
it's
not
necessarily
deliberate
if
I
can
just
find
yeah
I
may
not
be
able
to
find
it,
but
it
can
take
quite
a
long
time
to
get
up
building
to
perform
the
way
you
want
it
to
perform
and
the
first
year
it
probably
will
be
about
the
same
performance
as
the
one
that
you
knocked
down.
D
D
So
that
is
a
major
problem,
but
it's
not
necessarily
deliberate
I
mean
I
have
the
same
task
when
I'm
doing
our
project
in
a
building,
see
putting
in
new
lighting
or
craftable
I
will
do
all
the
calculations
in
theory
and
I'll
come
up
with
a
ceiling
and
I'll
see
about
this.
Of
course,
saving
there's
a
cost.
There's
a
cost,
saving,
that's
the
P
back,
but
will
it
actually
happen
in
reality?
It's
very
difficult
to
see
if
it'll
actually
results,
you'll
get
exactly
what
you
want
in
reality.
A
Mean
to
interrupt
I
just
wanted
to
say
that
witnesses,
or
maybe
things
that
we
don't
have
time
to
cover
in
the
session
and
if
you
want
to
submit
further
comment
in
writing
and
add
a
bit
of
detail
that
that
would
be
helpful
for
the
committee.
But
if
there
are
things
like
that,
then
you
that
a
way
to
deal
with
things
I
think
so
Webb's
good,
McDonald
yeah
come
on
like
this.
The
further
question
yeah.
H
My
questions
about
relation
to
funding,
Road
seeps,
and
we
know
that
since
2008
has
been
a
substantial
amount
of
investing
into
domestication
and
at
49
percent
of
social
housing
is
by
this
year
above,
but
only
a
thump
of
private
dwellings
is
that
they
required
level
so
government,
a
large
proportion
of
housing
as
private
housing.
Others.
This
lag
behind
social
housing.
What's
needed
to
encourage
private
investment
in
this
area
to
ensure
there's
a
get
a
take
off
of
home
and
home
insulation
products.
C
Also
on
that,
thanks
for
the
question,
because
I
think
that
is
you
know,
just
in
those
statistics
of
themselves-
speak
volumes
about
the
value
of
regulation
and
the
role
that
can
play
because
since
the
social
sector
has
been
regulated,
this
is
the
result
they
get.
They
have
much
higher
quality
homes
than
in
the
private
sector.
C
We
can
the
same
can
happen
in
the
private
sector
if,
if
we
introduce
regulation
and
I
should
say
that
a
lot
of
that
or
the
bulk
of
those
improvements
have
been
done
through
either
the
local
authorities
or
the
Housing
Association
providers
and
the
tenants
themselves
have
been
paying
for
those
improvements
that
hasn't
been.
You
know
just
all
paid
by
the
public
sector,
that's
been
paid
by
them
and
that
brought
that
investment
into
the
social
sector.
H
Human
innovation
behavior.
We
are
aware
that
as
a
saving
can
be
made
if
people
switch
electricity
users,
but
still
a
large
proportion
of
people
stick
with
the
traditional
electricity.
You
know
supplier,
that
I've
used
for
many
many
years
and
given
that
many
households
simply
can't
afford
to
make
short-term
expenditure
for
some
kind
of
long
term
seven,
you
know
what
has
to
be
in
place
to
try
and
encourage
people
to
make
these
investments
I.
Think.
B
The
term
obviously
regulation
is
the
backstop.
Therefore,
the
changing
behaviors
but
you've
also
looked
got
to
see
how
you
can
facilitate
people
are
undertaking
energy
efficiency
measures.
It
is
a
challenge
getting
any
work
done
in
your
home
or
for
any
business,
getting
any
works
done
and
it's.
How
can
that
be
made
easy
for
this
they've
got
to
be
confident
that
the
what
have
solace
to
say
these
trusted
traders
that
they
can
use
that
they
often
want
to
be
able
to
call
upon
Quality
Assurance
to
be
able
to
show
the
works
being
done.
B
I
think
one
of
the
major
issues
is
some
of
the
schemes
which
will
run
previously,
particularly
the
ones
funded
under
the
energy
company
obligations.
The
level
of
cultures
were
one
local
authority
would
see
that
50
percent
of
the
cavities
that
have
notionally
been
filled,
we're
either
not
been
filled
just
holes
drilled
or
that
there
are
only
partially
filled
because
you
had
unskilled
tradesmen
who
got
to
look
at
skinning
up
our
workforce
because
there
are
not
sufficient
people
in
Scotland
trained
up
to
do
that.
B
A
lot
of
the
traditional
work
people
could
actually
be
adapt
their
skills.
Do
that
but
they're
just
not
enough
joiners
and
plasterers
and
the
like
to
actually
undertake
that
tasks
carried
out,
so
we've
got
to
look
at
having
the
skills
there
and
got
to
get
that
community
engagement
involvement,
some
of
the
regeneration
there's
taken
place
when
the
from
the
area
based
schemes
which
have
often
been
custom
or
pupil.
B
But
it's
quite
interesting
about
you
mention
about
switching
without
actually
for
a
lot
of
people's
money
involved
in
switching
is
so
that
it
can
be
good
at
one
off,
but
actually
to
keep
searching
each
year.
It's
only
as
well
as
to
be
small
amount
of
money,
so
actually
on
the
whole
doesn't
make
anybody
use
any
less
energy.
B
Most
people
don't
know
how
much
energy
they
use,
they
don't
know
if
their
fuel
bill,
they
know
whether
they
find
that,
for
your
bill
is
difficult
to
pay,
but
they
don't
know
whether
compared
to
their
neighbours
or
to
other
localities.
Do
I
have
a
high
fuel
bill
or
low
fuel
bill,
so
they're
not
actually
got
that
awareness
and
what
support
make
sense.
What
behavior
changing
programs
do
you
have
to
put
in?
So
you
part
start
paying
that
attention,
because
we
do
have
to
look
about
reducing
our
carbon
emissions
to
get
people
involved.
B
And
how
do
we
get
that
interest
in
doing
that,
which
is
a
challenge
and
I
think
that
full
area
based
schemes
have
got
a
role
that
could
be
things
about.
One
of
the
issues
is
that
we
there's
not
huge
amounts
of
corrosion
there.
We
have
some
excellent
programs
like
warm
home
Scotland,
because
actually
the
demand
is
so
high.
We're
not
promoting
that
to
the
foot
that
we
should
be
done.
B
It's
a
because
there's
if
we
promoted
it,
and
so
many
people
knew
it
was
there-
you
wouldn't
be
able
to
meet
the
demand
with
the
budgets
that
are
currently
available.
So
there's
a
lot
of
things
that
can
be
interests.
If
you
look
to
promote
it,
but
you've
got
to
think
how
you
fund
it.
Grants
are
applicable
for
those
who
actually
need
it,
but
there
is
a
need
about
for
loan
finance
to
make
that
easier
for
people
to
actually
have
other
facilities
there.
B
How
do
you
get
the
mortgage
industry
in
joke,
so
you've
got
a
very
well
established
lending
market
for
the
bands,
and
businesses
is
a
big
challenge
as
well,
because
they
make
such
short-term
decision
making.
Businesses
often
make
much
shorter
term
decision,
making
paths
that
they're
not
prepared
to
invest
in
anything.
Does
it
give
them
a
six
month
return?
You
will
need
a
regulation
to
make
the
businesses
consider
that
you.
H
H
The
council
should
have
I,
mean
I'm
aware
in
Edinburgh
that,
in
relation
to
appeals,
the
council
steps
back
from
intervening
if
there
is
at
least
one
private
tenant
in
the
building
and
leaves
it
up
to
the
combination
of
tenants
and
owner
occupiers
to
try
and
make
that
arrangement
which
should
given
the
extent
of
the
the
problem
of
a
got
with
external
cladding
and
the
nature
of
the
job
will
make
it
quite
difficult
for
and
then
dividual
to
try
and
organise.
So
what
should
the
role
of
local
authorities
be
honest,
I.
B
Think
the
local
suppose
doesn't
have
got
a
strategic
role
that
they've
got
to
play
and
if
we
are
going
to
be
having
these
programs,
which
is
you're
going
to
be
having
possibly
a
a
seep
that
delivery
there,
there
needs
to
be
there
to
actually
be
able
to
ensure
that
there's
40
in
the
program
there
I
think
one
of
the
things
about
seep.
They
do
envisage
local
authorities
having
a
key
role.
B
I
think
it's
going
to
be
impossible
for
just
getting
people
without
the
next-door
body
to
actually
organize
themselves
to
actually
carry
out
works
done
in
everywhere.
Yes,
they
are.
Some
of
the
middle
class
areas
are
sorting
out
their
roofing
problems,
but
it's
not
that
it's
very
challenging
if
you've
got
to
try
and
get
ten
people
to
agree
to
carry
out
some
works.
There's
got
to
be
a
facilitation
there
if
it
could
be
done
by
the
local
authority
do
if
you
have
to
have.
B
We
start
look
at
the
ten
months
act
and
warm
homes
bill
that's
coming
along.
How
can
you
make
that
happen
in
gloves?
Go
you're
in
a
different
situation.
You've
got
factors
there
that
there
are
some
disadvantages
of
that,
but
there
are
people
taking
a
lead
in
that.
You
can't
expect
things
in
a
multi
only
arbitrary
bill
that
happened
without
some
sort
of
external
party
to
facilitate
it
and.
C
The
equity
loan
scheme
is
one
of
several
offers
that
are
on
the
table
at
the
moment
and
and
we
did
welcome,
but
that
that
was
provided
because
it
because
it's
good
for
people
that
may
not
have
the
cash
or
with
to
to
pay
for
the
upfront
capital
for
measures
and-
and
we
think
that
is
going
out
to
be
the
case
with
this
mixture
of
carrots
and
sticks-
is
that
you
will
need
a
range
of
incentives.
Some
providing
you
know,
loans
to
to
cover
the
upfront
cost.
C
Some
perhaps
incentives,
tax
incentives
that
are
rebates
that
are
paid
after
the
measures
are
completed
so
to
suit
people's
different
circumstances,
or
you
know
how
they
how
they
like
to
want
to
play
pay
for
those
those
measures.
But
what
one
thing
that
we've
called
for
that
in
the
design
is
seat,
that
we
should
be
evaluating
the
many
years
of
experience
that
we
have
with
loan
schemes,
starting
back
with
a
home
renewables
loan
several
years
ago,
and
to
my
knowledge,
there
hasn't
been
a
review
of
Energy.
C
Saving
Trust
has
delivered
these
loans
on
behalf
of
the
Scottish
Government
and
there
hasn't
been
a
comprehensive
look
at
you
know:
what's
worked,
why?
What
are
the
particularly
successful
triggers?
How
have
they
been
marketed?
You
know
why
have
people
not
followed
through
once
they've
made
inquiry?
All
those
questions
would
be
so
valuable
in
designing
these
incentives
going
forward.
I
They
also
consider
that
there
would
be
a
value
in
having
a
trusted
source
of
advice
so
that
awareness
could
be
raised
about
what
is
available
now.
Do
you
think
that
the
energy
strategy
and
the
consultations
adequately
address
the
need
for
a
meaningful
public
engagement
and
effective
behavior
change?
Behavior
change
is
something
we've
asked
about
before,
because
there's
been
a
sort
of
slight
feeling
that
you
can
do
your
models,
you
can
work
out
the
outcomes
you
can
decide.
I
D
B
Is
a
big
challenge:
I
think
that,
often
that
people
are
time
poor
often
there
are
other
priorities
in
their
life,
something
that
so
many
areas
we've
got.
We
are
looking
at
that.
How
do
you
balance
out
those
priorities?
A
lot
of
the
things
we
have
actually
quite
challenging,
it's
sort
of.
If
you
ask
people
take
around
a
room,
how
do
you
actually
adjust
your
heating
system?
The
majority
of
people
have
got
a
vague
idea
about
how
to
do
it,
but
they're
not
very
certain
about
what
to
do
and
that's
what
the
difficulties
we've
got.
B
A
myriad
of
things
you
get
given
a
little
manual,
that's
I
think
I
can't
find
my
glasses
to
ever.
Read
it.
You've
got
to
find
better
ways
of
engage
people
that
if
you
look
about
behavioural
change,
science,
one
of
the
programs
which
we've
been
running
is
it's
not
just
telling
people
people
don't
want
just
information
visual.
They
need
to
be
supported
into
undertaking
that
exercise.
They
need
to
try
to
say
you
could
try
an
experiment
to
adjust
your
radiators.
You
can
change
it
back
again.
Why
don't
you
today?
Do
it
does
take
time
resources?
B
Sometimes
it's
much
easier
to
think
we're
just
going
to
slap
some
materials
on
there
outside
of
the
building,
but
it's
people
you've
got
to
engage
it.
You
look
at
the
issues
about
how
do
you
work
in
an
office?
You've
got
people
who,
like
it,
hot
people
who,
like
it
cold
all
those
persons,
but
you
can
carry
out
exercises
to
get
people
involved
and
engaging
it.
How
do
they
have
that
can
sometimes
involve
moving
people
around
people
actually
accepting
that
they
don't
have
the
information
to
know?
Well,
actually,
this
office
is
quite
warm.
B
It's
22
degrees,
which
is
a
very
accepts,
will
change
but
I'm
just
feeling
a
bit
cold.
That's
you
need
to
put
conent,
but
you
do
have
to
have
those
engagement
programs
put
in
place
and
developed
and
actually
supported
for
the
implementation
to
take
place.
It
will
require
resources
for
that
to
take
place,
but
most
people
don't
want
to
be
actually
wasting
money.
If
you
were
to
reduce
the
arguments
in
office
place
about
the
temperature
of
buildings,
you'd
actually
probably
increase
work,
positives
there's,
so
many
people
have
issues
there.
B
How
can
you
do
that
and
we
are
looking
at
sort
of
surfing,
but
in
change?
What's
we
are
having
as
exercises
there
lots
of
things
you've
had
with
in
recycling
say
in
the
Parliament?
A
lot
of
work
has
gone
into
that
to
make
you
actually
change
your
behaviour.
There's
a
science
there
that
people
are
specialists
in
there.
It's
a
program.
That's
got
to
be
supported
so
that
there
is
work
that
can
be
done.
Providers
of
that
investment
takes
place.
You
don't
start
talking
about
sort
of
the
wider
provision
of
advice.
B
I
think
that
a
lot
of
the
time
we're
focused
on
providing
information
and
information
is
different
from
providing
advice
you're.
So
you
can
provide
people
with
a
lot
of
information,
but
you
then
have
to
provide
guidance.
But
what
are
your
circumstances?
This
may
well
be
the
best
route
for
you
to
do
and
be
prepared
just
move
beyond
the
provision
of
information.
B
We've
also
got
to
look
to
see
that
people
are
are
getting
information
and
advice
and
support
in
different
ways
that
the
s
there
are
a
lot
of
people
who'd
like
engaging
still
on
the
telephone,
but
a
lot
of
the
people
in
predicted,
high
energy
users
and
not
people
are
going
to
ring
up
a
helpline
to
find
out
it.
They
want
to
be
able
to
do
things
digitally
to
find
resources
to
actually
take
place.
B
C
Yes,
if
I
can
add
to
that
I
think
part
of
this
will
be
about
engaging
the
the
wider
public.
You
know
the
businesses,
as
had
people
in
the
workplace,
but
also
in
their
homes,
with
with
the
vision
for
2050,
you
know
how
marvelous
is
that
going
to
be
when
we're
living
in
Zero
Carbon
homes,
when
we
have
virtually
you
know
very
small
energy
bills
when
we're
actually
generating
electricity
electricity
power
from
our
homes.
You
know
we
have
to
engage
people
with
that
very
exciting,
very
positive,
very
desirable
vision.
C
If
any
of
you
have
ever
been
in
a
passive
house
and
experience
the
comfort
and
have
been
told
old,
you
know
we,
we
don't
pay
any
energy
bills
and
my
house
never
loses
any
temperature
overnight
or
I've
been
away
for
the
weekend
and
it's
still
just
as
warm
as
it
was
when
I
left.
You
know
that
that
is
the
future,
for
that
that
we
should
be
aspiring
to
and
is
the
vision
in
the
strategy.
C
So
it's
engaging
everyone
with
that
that
vision
that
that
is
number
one,
so
that
people
want
that
and
they're
those
you
know
knocking
the
door
saying.
How
can
I
have
it?
You
know
I
want
that
and
then
and
then
you
can
provide
the
advice
and
it
needs
to
be
as
Teresa
saying
it
needs
to
be
people
centered.
It
can't
be
a
measures
based
program
again.
C
You
know
it
can't
be
a
knock
on
the
door
saying:
we've
got
solid
wall
insulation
for
you
and
said
well,
actually
that
wasn't
what
I
was
interested
in
I
want
to
have
a
warmer
more
comfortable
home
with
affordable
bills.
You
know
in
and
so
tailored
solutions
again
that's
more
of
an
upfront
investment,
but
I
think
we
know
that.
C
That's
how
we're
going
to
get
the
results
in
the
longer
term
if
people
are
engaged,
if
they
feel
they're
getting
good
quality,
fair,
independent
advice-
and
there
are
these
enabling
measures
putting
you
know,
make
it
easy
for
people
make
it
easy
for
them
to
do
it
voluntarily,
make
it
easy
for
them
to
comply
with
regulation.
It
shouldn't
be
seen
as
a
penalty.
This
is
all
about
helping
you
to
save,
to
save
energy
I.
D
Would
like
to
give
you
some
context.
I
was
involved
in
one
of
the
secret
projects,
which
was
a
business
center
in
Dunfermline
and
I
needed
to
put
in
some
sensors
so
that
they
we
could
monitor
how
well
a
project
was
going
to
go
for
their
particular
business
center,
where
we
were
trying
to
adjust
them
from
having
electric
heating
to
biomass
heating,
and
so
I
had
to
engage
in
various
business,
engage
various
business
owners
through
the
center.
A
podiatrist
really
wasn't
all
that
interested.
He
wanted
to
go
from
one
appointment
to
the
next
appointment.
D
He
didn't
want
to
spend
any
time
with
me
but
managed
to
put
stuff
in
another
guy
very
similar.
The
picture
framer
guy
was
really
really
not
interested.
In
speaking
to
me
at
all,
I
started
to
put
the
measure
in
and
something
went
wrong
with
his
computer.
He
blamed
me
and
ripped
everything
out,
I
had
to
leave,
he
saw
it
and
then
I
saw
him
chatting
away
with
it
our
business
owner
over
a,
and
he
was
talking
about
how
this
stupid
woman
had
come
round.
And,
oh,
my
goodness,
oh
it's
awful.
D
If
you've
got
a
business
owner
who's
time,
poor
they're
not
really
interested
in
energy
efficiency,
but
interested
in
whether
they
can
pay
their
bills
and
get
their
business
to
what
second
context
I
come
home
each
day
and
three
days
out
of
five
I
have
a
message
on
my
cell
phone
trying
to
sell
me
a
gas
trying
to
replace
my
gas
boiler
or
sell
me
some
kind
of
energy
efficiency
thing,
and
they
tell
me
it's
part
of
the
Green
Deal
and
every
day.
Still
you
do.
We
do.
D
We
I
am
more
interested,
even
though
I'm
actually
an
energy
engineer,
and
we
need
to
have
people
buy
in
and
not
be
sold.
We
don't
want
the
hard
sell.
Nobody
wants
the
hard
sell,
they
want
something
on
the
answerphone
you
have
to
have
buy-in
and
we
had
a
campaign
locally
where
we
try
to
get
people
to
engage
in
buying
a
piece
of
land
for
a
community
ownership.
They
had
a
community
engagement
in
the
church
hall
that
did
work,
people
did
arrive,
people
did
talk
about
it,
I
think
you
have
to
have
face
to
face.
D
You
have
to
have
people
voting
with
their
feet
and
coming
along
getting
people
to
come
along
and
buy-in.
Nobody
wants
a
hard
sell.
That's
my
comment
and
the
other
thing
is
in
the
faith
context
we're
not
in
a
city,
so
we
don't
have
lots
of
neighbors
nearby.
So
we
can't
have
like
a
tight
little
district
heating
scheme
or
campus-based
thing.
Neither
are
we
in
the
remote
sticks
where
there
were
off-grid
and
it's
very
expensive
alternative
energy
we've
got
low
gas
prices.
D
J
You
convener
just
to
follow
up
on
behavioural
change
in
education,
given
the
today's
school
leavers
by
2030
will
hopefully
be
home
occupiers
or
homeowners.
What
role
does
formal
education
play
in
this?
Is
there
a
possibility
that
we
can
start
educating
kids,
that
if
we
were
about
to
leave
school
or
at
some
point
about
this,
so
that
when
they
are
in
the
future
that
they
can
even
talk
to
their
parents,
perhaps
in
the
future
they're
in
a
position
that
they
could
understand?
Some
of
these
issues.
D
And
in
school
an
energy
education
with
young
children
I
see
as
a
very
very
long-term
energy
efficiency
project.
You're
going
to
get
you
you're
going
to
pay
the
money
now
to
do
that,
but
you're
not
going
to
get
you
by
you're,
not
going
to
get
the
effect
for
20
years
or
so
before.
They
can
grow
up
and
actually
buy
an
energy-efficient
home.
So
is
a
good
thing,
but
it
competes
against
every
other
kind
of
energy
efficiency
project
that
we
could
do.
C
It's
now
energy
performance
certificate
ratings
will
be
included
in
tenant
information
packs,
but
they
often
feel
because
it's
short
term
rentals,
where
there
aren't
many
properties
available,
then
there
they're
not
exactly
shopping
around.
So
this
is
where
regulation
can
actually
tie
in
with
if
they
have
increased
knowledge,
and
they
can
be
asking
questions
and
actually
demanding
that.
C
Well,
you
know
you're
not
up
to
up
to
standard
and
I
got
my
right
to
have
a
more
energy-efficient
property
and
so
I
think,
working
with
like
say,
National
Union
of
students
and
others
to
raise
their
awareness
as
well
as
bodies
like
shelter
and
others,
so
that
when
regulation
comes
in
is
actually
enforced
and
makes
a
difference
will
be
very
important.
I.
K
Back
to
something
that's
been
touched
on
by
a
couple
of
years,
rent
that
the
question
of
particulars,
which
has
learned
about
jobs
and
the
opportunities
for
job
creation
and
economic
development,
think
you
two
things
that
come
out
for
me
that
there's
something
about
massive:
an
undertaking
to
achieve
the
goals
set
and
there's
great
potential
for
job
creation
and
great
potential
for
existing
companies
to
take
advantage
of
of
the
work
that's
out
there.
But
you
also
mentioned
we've
got
a
skill
shortage
already
I,
just
like
to
open
that
up
further
and
get
your
views
on
that.
K
B
Think
we
currently
got
two
models
of
delivery
of
energy
efficiency
programs
in
the
domestic
sector,
one
being
the
area
based
schemes
where
you're
going
through
large-scale
procurement,
which
are
very
short-term
they're
individual
contracts
there,
and
there
are
actually
only
four
companies
but
bid
for
these
contracts
that
are
large
enough
to
do
so
are
prepared
to
take
the
risk
of
taking
on
a
short-term
contract.
They
do
struggle
to
get
the
staff
to
do
that.
There's
a
lot
of
subcontracting
take
place.
B
There's
a
lot
of
skills,
skilled
workforce
coming
from
different
parts
of
Europe
to
actually
deliver
that
on
the
fuel
poverty
program
on
warmer
home
Scotland
delivered
by
warm
works,
we've
got
a
seven-year
contract
there
with
very
clear
guidelines,
set
about
the
need
to
ensure
that
you're
getting
that
wider
community
benefit
there.
There
you've
got
30
local
subcontractors
working
from
Shetland
down
to
the
borders
delivering
the
program.
You've
got
a
certainty
that
it's
worthwhile
the
smaller
companies
getting
involved
in
that
delivery,
because
it
is
a
long-term
contract
for
them.
B
They
are
going
to
be
taking
on
apprentices
to
be
able
to
deliver
that
there's
a
certain
amount
of
work.
That's
coming
through
it's
a
stop
and
start
nature
of
the
in
the
short
term.
Funding
that's
been
associated
with
a
lot
of
the
initial
program,
but
it's
preventing
new
players
coming
to
the
market
or
the
existing
companies
actually
training
up
moving
into
the
market
and
making
it
worthwhile.
You've
also
got
to
look
at
the
terms
of
procurement
as
well.
There's
a
very
big
difference.
B
If
you
have
the
huge
contracts,
you'll
only
get
very
big
companies
who
can
go
through
the
framework.
If
you
start
looking
at
delivering
things
on
a
much
smaller
scale
and
yes,
you
need
to
have
suitable
standards
in
place
and
ensuring
value
for
money,
but
they're
different
frameworks
that
can
be
developed,
particularly
if
the
contractual
arrangement
is
not
between
the
public
sector.
It's
different
from
that
schools.
B
But
if
you've
got
small
non
domestic
firms
or
the
privates
housing
and
an
individual
company,
then
you
can
have
different
frameworks
set
up
there
to
ensure
you've
got
the
quality
control.
The
comfort
is
provided
for
the
consumer,
but
you
don't
necessarily
have
have
the
huge
contractual
phone
work
and
one
of
the
issues
is
that,
because
the
caps
and
tracks
or
framework
that
it
goes
there,
you
actually
can't
ensure
that
a
lot
of
the
services
that
your
the
standards
you
require
are
part
of
that.
B
So
it's
thinking
about
the
procurement
framework,
the
length
of
funding
that's
taking
place,
but
despite
that,
you've
got
to
have
the
people
you're
going
to
be
skilling
up
to
actually
work
in
that
area
and
you're
both
looking
about
what
is
the
role
of
local
colleges.
What
is
the
place
of
perfect
showing
people
leaving
school,
but
also
people
retraining
as
well,
and
that
has
got
to
be
more
focus
on
that
tying,
the
two
together?
How
can
you
actually
develop
those
skills?
B
Because,
when
you
are
working
in
existing
stock,
there
will
be
a
role
for
technological
fixes
and
you
will
find
better
ways
to
do
it.
So
you
can
have
some
off-site
works,
taking
place
that
you
can
just
try
and
ship
in,
but
you
do
have
to
have
those
skills,
crafts
people
actually
doing
the
work,
often
in
sight,
because
you've
got
to
adjust
the
sizes
of
things
as
well.
You've
got
to
be
prepared
to
have
that
long
term
investment.
B
So
people
see
it,
but
it
is
a
career
there
and
the
investment
takes
place
and
that
combination
of
the
colleges
and
procurement
and
the
companies
there
and
the
making
sure
that
local
companies
are
interested,
but
most
of
them
are
not
sure
to
work.
So
if
anything
seen
is
difficult
to
work
in,
they
will
go
and
look
elsewhere.
C
C
What
are
we
trying
to
achieve
by
in
20
years
and
the
milestones
along
the
way,
so
they
know
what's
going
to
be
expected
of
them
as
an
industry
and
then,
alongside
the
certainty,
is
trees
who
had
seen
some
skills,
development
strategy
and
I'd
say
you
know
another
role
for
the
independent
body
to
work
with
industry.
On
on
that-
and
my
last
point
is
to
say
you
know:
we've
been
talking
about
seat
for
two
years.
This
was
first
announced
the
national
infrastructure
priority
in
June
2015,
it's
May.
C
Now
the
consultation
has
just
concluded,
but
one
might
say
that
that
consultation,
a
lot
of
the
questions
that
we're
talking
about.
We
could
have
had
that
conversation
two
years
ago
and
that's
an
example
of
why
we
need
to
you
know
the
skills
development
where
it
could
have
started.
Then
you
know
what
are
we
waiting
for
and
and
hence
again
perhaps
another
rationale
for
that
delivery
body
is
is
to
deliver
the
pace
and
scale
that
we
need
to
achieve.
The
ambition.
D
Steer
you,
the
skills
will
follow
and
if
you
can,
if
you
create
a
program
of
work,
seeing
lighting
or
whatever
and
you
you
know,
that's
going
to
go
on
for
a
long
period
of
time,
the
skills
can
be
developed
further.
But
if
you've
only
got
one
year
not
long
enough-
and
we
do
have
a
direct
labor
organization
that
faith
Council,
that
has
done
a
lot
of
my
energy
efficiency
projects,
light
lighting
and
so
on.
But
the
problem
is,
we
have
to
have
match
funding
as
well
for
the
seat
thing
we
have
that
much
funding.
D
The
other
thing
is
that
we
could
use
your
newly
developed
non
domestic
energy
efficiency
framework
which
the
Scottish
Government
have
set
up.
My
problem
with
that
is,
it's
got
to
be
1
million
pounds
and
upwards
I
would
prefer
to
have
much
smaller
Lots
than
that
for
doing
energy
efficiency
work,
and
if
it
was
very
much
smaller
lots,
you
could
get
much
more
small,
much
smaller
companies
and
they
would
go
into.
B
We've
got
to
cover
all
of
Scotland
and
if
you
start
just
looking
at
particularly
individual
sectors,
you're
going
to
have
to
keep
coming
back
to
an
area
you're
likely
to
sort
of
pick
off
the
that
the
easy
wins
first.
But
if
we've
got
to
cover
all
of
Scotland,
because
energy
used
throughout
Scotland
actually
having
an
area
based
approach,
will
do
that
you
there
are
things
that
you
want
to
learn
from
what
it
one
working
with
one
sector
to
another
sector.
B
If
you're
say
you're
working
with
the
hospitality
industry,
which
is
a
very
dispersed
sector
in
that
things.
You'll
learn
for
one
area
that
you
won't
need
to
ensure
that
that
best
practice
of
working
with
the
hospitality
suspect
that
can
be
used
in
other
areas
to
actually
get
that
interest
to
actually
want
to
take
part
in
something
is
going
to
be
much
more
difficult.
If
you're
having
a
very
dispersed
nature,
they
make.
That
could
well
be
some
sort
of
I.
B
Think
that's
going
to
be
a
combination
of
the
two,
because
there
are
specific
things
that
you're
going
to
do
be
doing
say
in
what
you
have
to
do
in
hospitals
is
probably
Melton
or
transferable.
We've
got
a
limited
number
of
hospitals
actually
looking
to
see
how
you
deal
with
hospitals
as
a
whole
is
probably
going
to
make
sense.
B
But
an
awful
lot
of
things
is
that
much
smaller
businesses
smaller
areas
there,
that
you
need
to
combine
both
the
domestic,
the
non
domestic,
and
it
also
allows
your
your
local
contractors
to
be
developed
as
well,
because,
yes,
working
in
a
large
projects
in
a
hospital
sort
of
be
put
there,
it
likely
to
be
the
larger
contractors.
But
if
you
want
to
work
within
an
area
you
want
to
get
those
small
contractors
involved.
That
community
builds
the
community
engagement.
B
You
will
get
to
working
in
an
area,
but
there
is
the
difficulty
that
you're
working
in
their
areas.
This
is
going
to
be
a
15
year
program.
The
sum
of
20
year
program,
there'll,
be
some
areas,
you're
not
going
to
get
to
for
20
years
and
you've
got
to
think.
How
do
you
deal
with
those
people
who
are
in
fuel
poverty?
Who
cannot
wait
for
their
homes
to
be
made
more
energy-efficient,
sore,
have
more
efficient
housing?
There's
got
to
be
a
national
program
to
deal
with
those
who
are
most
in
need.
B
There
will
also
be
early
adopters,
so
you're
going
to
want
to
encourage
the
to
take
action
as
well,
so
I
think
to
cover
all
of
scotland's.
You
need
to
have
area
based
ones,
but
you
must
ensure
that
you
facilitate
the
different
demographics
of
those
most
in
field
poverty
that
you
deal
with
as
their
need
arises,
and
also
to
support
the
early
adopters.
If
ever
you're
going
to
juice
district
heating,
you've
got
to
do
it
on
an
area
base
as
well.
D
Area
based
and
work,
our
asset
management
team
have
been
going
through
a
non
domestic
portfolio.
Looking
for
redundant
buildings
or
buildings
that
are
partially
used
say,
for
example,
in
Ricordi
there
might
be
quite
a
number
of
community
centers
the
case
of
well.
Do
we
need
them
all,
and
could
we
close
them?
D
So
we
are
starting
to
look
at
things
in
Amelia's
base
for
other
types
of
activity
apart
from
energy
efficiency,
and
it
probably
would
this
is
one
of
the
things
I
have
problems
with
when
I'm
doing
energy
efficiency
work,
which
is
not
in
schools,
I,
have
to
work
out
whether
we're
going
to
keep
the
building
or
not.
Is
it
going
to
be
retained
before
we
improve
it?.
M
Increasingly
persuaded
by
the
argument
for
a
national
body,
but
I
do
want
to
explore
with
you
where
responsibilities
should
lie
in
the
balance
between
local
and
national
responsibilities,
because
it's
all
very
well
for
you,
do
national
government
to
set
targets
and
leave
it
to
local
government
to
deliver
against
those
responsibilities.
Is
there
a
few
that
perhaps
some
local
target
setting
would
also
be
appropriate,
so
I'm
just
keen
to
explore
that
with
you
and.
C
So
I'll
take
that
one.
What
what
we
see
is
that
it
is
in
a
national
body,
but
it's
not
doing
all
the
work.
Obviously,
if
there's
a
balance
between
the
national
and
local
actually
delivery
on
the
ground
with
the
local
target,
we
think
there
would
be
local
target
setting,
as
is
envisioned
with
the
local
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategies
and
I
would
say
also
that
we'll
need
to
bring
in
the
fuel
poverty
strategies
that
local
authorities
or
local
fuel
poverty
groups.
We
would
be
forming
as
well.
C
But
there
needs
to
be
some
kind
of
oversight
to
make
sure
that
those
local
targets
add
up
across
the
piece
to
meet
the
national
target
and
there,
and
that
would
be
a
role
for
your
national
body
and
and
some
kind
of
reporting
reporting
against
that.
But
at
the
same
time
some
local
authorities
will
be
able
to
deliver
more
than
others,
because
some
have
more
challenges.
M
One
of
the
concerns,
if
I
can
just
pursue
this
point
of
kind
of
setting
up
a
different
body
or
an
arm's-length
body,
is
then
accountability
to
Parliament
and
the
setting
of
budgets
and
I.
Wonder
whether
you
would
comment
on
that,
because
I
could
see
how
it
would
work,
but
that
you
are
pushing
away
to
a
distance
that
direct
accountability.
So
how
would
you
lock
that
down
I
think.
C
There
would
have
to
be
reporting
and
scrutiny
arrangements
set
when
it
was
established,
and
that's
why
we've
suggested
it
would
be
established
through
the
warm
home
still
and
and
that
you
would
have
regular
reporting
to
Parliament
that
it
would
have
to
it
that
it
would
be
accountable
to.
But
ultimately,
the
the
target
settings
in
a
division
precedes
to
be
at
the
ministerial
level.
I
would.
D
See
that
in
the
report,
the
reporting
aspect
of
it
is
actually
very
onerous
for
us,
because
we're
not
doing
like
a
hundred
homes
here
or
or
or
whatever
we're
doing
individual
buildings
the
amount
of
bureaucracy
involved
in
something
like
c
p--
or
any
of
the
national
schemes.
I
have
to
say
well
how
much
it's
going
to
cost,
how
much
it's
going
to
save
right
up
front
when
these
things
are
actually
quite
uncertain.
D
If
we
have
our
rounds
of
reporting,
it
gets
to
be
very,
very
bureaucratic
to
the
point
that
five
council
might
see.
Do
we
really
want
to
go
with
feet
at
all?
It's
so
top-heavy
with
the
amount
of
the
number
of
layers
of
reporting.
If
it's
going
all
the
way
up
to
Parliament,
it's
a
lot
to
put
on
an
individual
like
myself
and
certainly
was
for
the
seat.
Pathfinder
projects
I've
had
to
report
to
internal
people
within
the
council
and
external
people
as
well
all
for
very
small
projects.
N
And
energy
strategy
also
includes
a
a
goal
of
setting
a
target
50%
of
Scotland's,
all
energy
needs
from
heat
and
transport
and
electricity
from
renewable
sources,
and
this
is
not
your
specialist
area.
I.
Don't
think
that
you
have
any
comment
on
how
feasible
that
will
be,
given
that
it's
intended
to
achieve
it
in
a
little
over
10
years
by
2030.
C
I'm
at
the
existing
homes
alliance
we've
supported
the
setting
of
that
target
because
you
know
in
large
part
because
it
does
talk
about
heat,
we're
no
longer
just
talking
about
electricity,
and
we
think
we
do
need
to
talk
about
heat.
It's
not
something
we've
really
discussed
today,
but
I
think
it
is
one
of
the
biggest
challenges
for
CEAP
and
for
the
energy
strategy,
obviously
is
to
is
to
deal
with
decarbonizing
of
heat
and
so
I'm
not
really
commenting
on
the
achieve
ability
across
the
board,
but
in
terms
of
the
domestic
sector.
C
Yes,
you
know
certainly
very
challenging,
but
at
the
same
time
I
think
it
is.
It
is
a
direction
that
we
have
to
go
and
if
we're
serious
about
adjusting
the
climate
change
targets,
I
think
it's
also
equally
important
to
make
sure
that,
when
we're
changing
heat
now
from
fossil
fuel
heat
to
decarbonize
heat,
that
it
isn't
more
expensive
that
we're
not
increasing
a
fuel
poverty
problem
because
after
all,
you
know,
we've
still
to
pay
pay
for
the
heat.
C
And
so
that's
why
we've
called
for
more
effort
to
be
put
on
fabric
efficiency
in
the
early
years
of
the
seat
program,
and
then
it's
you're
reducing
the
heat
demand,
and
so
you,
you
don't
have
such
a
burden
on
creating
even
more
decarbonized
heat
and
you're,
reducing
the
costs
so
more
of
an
effort,
fabric,
energy
efficiency,
as
well
as
looking
at
heat
pumps-
and
you
know
really
a
focus
on
off
breath
gas
grid
areas.
I
think
in
the
early
years
is
something
we
can
do
now.
We
know
what
the
solutions
are.
B
But
there
certainly
is
it's
very
ambitious,
the
targets
that
sit
there,
but
but
it
could
be
achievable
if
the
political
will
is
there
and
you
start
having
the
regulatory
requirements
behind
it
as
well.
We
saw
the
gas
network
has
been
put
in
and
installed
retrofitted
to
all
the
housing
and
businesses.
Then
the
majority
of
properties
are
now
80.
Percent
of
the
domestic
stock
is
heated
by
gas,
but
they
weren't
built
with
with
gas
that
you're
heating,
to
a
large
extent
lots
of
systems
that
you've
got
in
place
already.
B
Yes,
you
may
have
to
change
to
have
a
instead
of
having
a
gas
boiler.
You
could,
if
you've
got
a
district
heating
system.
You'd
have
to
have
a
heat
exchanger,
it
could
be
done,
but
we
don't
have
any
of
the
mechanisms
to
make
it
happen
at
the
moment.
What
is
happening?
Industry
heating
in
Scotland
is
way
behind,
what's
happening,
other
parts
of
Europe
and
England
as
well
window.
B
It's
not
standard
practice.
Whatever
you
dig
up
the
road
that
you're
putting
in
heat
pipes,
you
could
be
doing
that.
You
could
be
insisting
that
new
developments
all
have
the
even
if
you're,
not
in
literally
going
to
be
connecting
them
to
a
distributing
system
at
that
time.
If
you
built
them
there
with
the
opportunity
to
have
a
heat
network
there,
it
would
significantly
reduce
the
cost
there.
It
there's
a
possibility,
it
might
not
be
used,
but
the
the
actual
regret
for
not
doing.
That
is
much
less.
B
If
you
put
it
in
whenever
you're
doing,
planning
that
infrastructure
bonds
there
so
I
think
there's
a
need
to
say
if
you're
going
to
be,
if
you're
confidently,
you
need
to
decarbonize
the
heat
network,
you
have
got
to
think
much
more
about
district
heating
and
what
you've
got
to
do.
That
may
well
be
a
role
for
hydrogen.
In
some
cases.
It's
the
way
you've
got
something
like
five.
Four
you've
got
much
more
dispersed
area,
but
a
lot
of
our
cities
leave
themselves
having
district
heating
systems.
B
D
If
political
will
regulation
and
money,
but
not
enough
money,
and
that
as
I
knew
how
to
mystique
and
built
next
to
my
house
misty
and
there's
no
district
heating
pipes
getting
put
in
if
there
was
the
planet,
you
know
if
that
was
part
of
the
regulation.
That
would
make
it
much
more
simple
to
do.
Having
said
that,
we've
got
41
educational
establishments
that
have
got
direct
electric
heating
with
no
wet
system,
so
we
couldn't
put
them
on
district,
you
can
we
couldn't
put
them
on
to
any
kind
of
decarbonized
system.
D
Unless
you
know
we
couldn't
do
41
in
ten
years
with
the
money
that
we
have
at
the
moment,
and
we
put
in
our
team
put
in
a
bid
for
unfunded
spending
pressures
Luna's,
we
were
going
to
try
and
get
some
of
them
done.
Some
of
them
and
they're
all
are
gently
needing
done
because
we're
completely
at
the
end
of
their
lives,
our
bed
with
number
one
bed.
D
It
doesn't
get
financed
because
the
councillors
felt
that
other
things
were
more
pressing
like
social
care
or
for
elderly
people
and
provision
for
nurseries
for
under
threes
and
lots
of
other
things
that
just
needed
to
be
done.
So
we
made
the
best
possible
case
to
get
the
money
and
we
didn't
get
the
money.
A
A
Welcome
back
everyone
and
welcome
to
our
second
panel
of
witnesses.
Today
we
have
with
us
first
of
all,
David
Handley
who's
head
of
regulation
at
Sdn.
Welcome
to
you,
if
you
only
good
enough
who
is
the
hydrogen
project
manager
for
the
Scottish
cities
alliance,
welcome
to
you
as
well:
Keith
MacLean
who's,
the
chair
of
the
UK
ERC
advisory
board
and
Stuart
Hazeldine
is
professor
of
carbon
capture
and
storage
at
the
University
of
Edinburgh.
A
So
welcome
to
the
two
of
you
as
well:
I'd
like
to
start
with
a
question
about
local
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategies,
and
the
question
is
first
of
all
whether
or
not
local
authorities
should
be
required
to
produce
a
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategy
and
also
whether
or
not
this
would
be
best
done
by
individual
local
authorities
or
by
a
local
local
authorities
in
conjunction
with
each
other
and
how
that
would
work.
So
I'm
wondering
if
you
would
like
to
start
off
on
that
point
in.
O
Therefore,
it
makes
it
very
difficult
for
local
authority
to
put
forward
a
strategy
if
it
doesn't
know
whether
it
will
have
hydrogen
in
the
gas
pipes
if
it
will
have
if
there
will
be
hot
water
pipes
for
district
heating
or
if,
indeed,
the
electricity
system
is
going
to
be
reinforced,
to
allow
some
of
the
electrification
to
take
place.
Therefore,
they
may
play
a
key
role,
but
they
it
will
be
absolutely
necessary
for
there
to
be
input
from
these
other
bodies
responsible
for
what
our
monopoly
networks
and
monopolies
regulated
networks.
I.
O
Think.
With
regard
to
the
coordination
question
that
you
raised
implicitly,
yes,
I
do
think
that
they
need
to
work
together,
because,
although
there
are
local
specificities
in
the
individual
strategies,
it
is
essential
that
there
is
common
learning
so
that
from
what
others
have
done,
that
there
is
pooling
of
resources
which
are
always
rather
tight
and
that
there
are
common
standards
and
approaches
that
individuals
and
consumers
can
expect
from
local
authority
to
local
authority.
O
P
Dundee
have
written
theirs
and
they
would
like
to
be
able
to
go
forward
and
write
their
own
energy
strategy
for
the
city
and
I.
Think
other
cities
feel
exactly
the
same.
If
not,
they
can't
complete
it
now,
at
least
they
have
felt
at
thee.
That
is,
is
written
than
black
and
white.
Why,
in
a
few
years
time,
while
you're
actually
doing
what
they
are
doing,
and
they
have
a
focus
well.
F
How
do
we
install
heat
network?
Let's
say
in
the
building's
we
have
control
over,
which
may
lead
you
to
a
wrong
conclusion
about
where
we're
going
to
get
our
energy
from
and
where
we're
getting
our
energy
from
may
rely
on
top-down
solutions,
national
electrification
or
not
national
hydrogen
networks,
which
need
a
very
different
design
process
in
a
very
different
connectivity
and
cooperation
between
all
of
the
local
authorities
across
Scotland.
So
I
think
you
have
to
be
careful.
What
question
you
ask,
because
that
will
determine
what
a
time
scale
and
what
answer
you
get
divert.
Q
You
and
thank
you
for
inviting
me
here
to
speech
yesterday
and
they
open
in
similar
yet
sort
of
common
with
a
lot
of
the
speeches
beforehand.
We
see
local
authorities
have
a
very
important
role
here
in
terms
of
a
very
important
central
coordination
function,
they're
the
people
which
can
really
link
in
multiple
groups
and
helps
create
those
bottom-up
plans.
J
You
convener
there
seems
to
be
consensus
that
local
authorities
can
play
a
vital
and
should
play
a
vital
role
in
these
strategies.
Can
I
ask
two
questions?
First
of
all,
whether
local
authorities
have
the
necessary
skills,
resources
and
relevant
support
to
successfully
measure
and
implement
this
strategy,
and
the
strategy
sets
out
12
key
functions.
I
won't
list
them,
I'm
sure,
you're,
aware
of
them.
Would
you
care
to
comment
on
whether
you
think
those
12
key
functions
are
appropriate?
J
Q
Consider
I
think
certainly
I'd
like
to
come
back
in
terms
of
the
skills
and
resources
question,
because
I
think
this
is
something
which
we
find
particularly
important
in
terms
of
working
in
partnership
with
the
local
authorities
to
make
sure
that
we're
able
to
deliver
the
skills
and
the
resources
where
there's
sort
of
shortcomings
and
make
sure
we're
able
to
provide
an
effective
sounding
board.
I
think
this
is
particularly
important
when
we're
looking
at
some
of
the
innovation
projects
and
say
how
do
we
bring
out
innovation
in
a
way
which
is
flagged
for
those
local
authorities?
O
At
the
moment
it
is
one
that
was
ignored
for
many
years
there
was
often
just
a
simple
phrase
in
decarbonisation
scenarios
that
will
be
Carbonite
Eaton's,
that
transport
through
electrification
take
job
done,
but
actually
in
reality,
it's
probably
the
most
difficult
area
to
address.
So
whether
it's
in
academia,
whether
it's
in
organizations
like
local
authorities,
I,
don't
think
that
there
is
yet
the
knowledge
to
be
able
to
make
the
necessary
decisions
and
that's
something
that
we're
going
to
have
to
build
up
not
only
through
education
but
also
through
practice.
O
In
some
of
the
solutions
that
we're
talking
about
particularly
hydrogen
or
heat
pumps
and
even
district.
We
have
very
little
experience
of
that.
A
very
little
practical
experience
of
applying
it
in
Scotland
and
therefore
we
need
to
do
appropriate
pilots
to
gather
that
knowledge
and
experience
before
we
can
make
any
of
the
key
decisions
that
need
to
be
made.
In
regard
to
the
decarbonisation
I.
A
O
On
that
I
think
the
the
problem
is
we're
sort
of
grasping
at
one
particular
aspect
of
the
heat
challenge,
which
is
district
heating,
and
this
heating
is
not
the
right
answer
in
every
case,
and
there
are
areas
where
it
is
a
good
solution,
but
there
are
others
where
it
probably
isn't.
I
would
highlight,
in
particular
the
link
to
energy
efficiency.
If
we
really
do
build
new
properties
to
a
high
standard,
the
heating
requirement
is
so
low.
It
doesn't
justify
the
costs
of
district
heating
to
actually
provide
it.
You
can
do
is
very
simple.
O
That
means
that
don't
have
the
same
capital
costs.
Similarly,
with
district
heating,
there's
a
clear
dilemma
at
the
moment
between
the
density
that
you
need
the
customer
density
that
you
need
to
make
the
economics
work,
but
the
most
dense
urban
areas
are
the
most
difficult
to
put
district
heating
in
I.
Barely
need
to
remind
you
here
in
Edinburgh
of
the
chaos
that
was
caused
by
digging
up
the
streets
for
the
limited
exercise
of
putting
in
the
tram
network.
Just
imagine
doing
that
right
throughout
the
whole
city
or
throughout
all
of
the
cities.
O
Over
a
twenty
year
period,
so
it's
not
just
the
costs,
but
the
non.
The
non
cost
factors
that
you
need
to
think
about,
so
I
think
that
where
district
heating
is
suitable
and
where,
therefore
we
need
regulation
to
deal
with
it,
the
proposals
that
are
made
I
think
start
to
address
some
of
the
the
right
points.
But
even
there
it's
important
to
recognize
that
the
there
are
different
reasons
for
introducing
the
regulation
in
the
first
place.
O
Customer
protection
is
really
really
important
at
the
supply
end,
but
so
is
giving
people
access
and
way
leave
rights
to
put
in
the
pipes
in
the
first
place
and
to
find
ways
of
regulating
the
asset
base,
as
it's
done
for
other
monopoly
networks
in
order
to
get
the
risks
down
and
the
cost
of
capital
down
as
well.
So
I
think
it
goes
some
way
to
addressing
some
of
those
issues,
but
the
key
one
that
I
don't
think
that
there
is
an
answer
yet
in
Scotland
or
uk-wide
is
the
last
one.
O
You
mentioned
about
compulsion
that,
if
you
are
going
to
make
district
heating
work,
as
the
Danes
have
done,
they're
always
given
as
the
classic
example,
the
Danes
have
a
regulations
in
place
which
mean
that
you
have
to
connect
to
it.
Basically,
you
can
I
suppose
choose
to
heat
your
home
electrically,
a
very
high
cost
as
an
alternative,
but
you
have
to
still
pay
the
fixed
costs
of
it
and
I.
Don't
think
that
we're
quite
in
a
position
yet
to
tell
people
that
they
have
to
do
it,
and
without
that
I
can't
see
the
economics
working.
F
We
have
to
be
careful
about
just
applying
this
one
size
solution.
So
do
I
agree
that
district
heating
is
not
automatically
a
good
thing.
Where
you
can
link
in
other
sources
of
wasted
heat,
then
it
can
be
helpful
and
efficient
opportunity,
but
if
you're
just
trying
to
replace
dozens
or
tens
and
tens
of
individual
boilers
in
people's
houses,
which
are
already
very
efficient
with
an
equally
efficient
central
district
heating
system,
I,
don't
see
any
gain.
F
There's
no
gain
in
carbon
savings,
there's
no
gain
in
efficiency
and
you
have
a
huge
infrastructure
cost
and
what
I
never
see
with
any
of
these
is
a
pricing
per
household
of
what
it's
actually
really
going
to
cost.
Maybe
it's
going
to
cost
10,000
pounds
of
household,
maybe
it's
going
to
cost
20
or
30,000
pounds
of
household,
but
we
need
to
work
out
where
the
correct
value
for
money
actions
are
rather
than
saying.
F
This
is
what
we're
going
to
mandate
nationally
and
I
think
also
the
track
record
of
district
heating
schemes
around
the
UK
seems
to
be
patchy.
So
if
they're
well
run
by
the
monopoly
owner,
then
yes,
you
can
produce
a
saving
for
the
incumbents
in
the
property.
If
they're
poorly
run,
then
the
incumbents
are
stuck
with
that
monopoly
and
the
end
could
end
up
paying
double
the
price
of
what
an
ordinary
heating
system
is.
Q
To
that
I
think
is
completely
sort
of
building
on
the
points
about
sort
of
district
heating
being
the
right
solution
in
specific
areas.
There's
lots
of
other
solutions
as
well,
which
we
need
to
be
promoting
in
terms
of
decarbonizing
heat.
They
also
need
to
be
a
part
where
we
are
looking
at
district
heating.
Then
the
question
which
we
raised
about
does
the
regulatory
model,
which
is
proposed
to
go
far
enough.
G
G
Easing
system
and
I
think
would
be
fair
to
say
there
have
been
a
number
of
keeping
problems,
not
least
because
there's
different
types
of
housing
tenure
and
even
the
different
housing
associations
don't
charge
the
residents
in
the
same
kind
of
way
so
as
quite
complex
but
but
the
whole
area
of
risk
I
mean
in
the
pay
part
of
the
consultation
paper.
It
talks
about
design,
risk
construction,
risk,
operational
risk,
demand,
market
risk,
performance,
risk,
financial
risk
and
regulatory
risk,
I
mean
just
reading.
Q
To
try
respond
to
that
quickly
and
I
must
admit:
when
I
saw
the
list
of
risks,
I
had
a
similar
response,
they're
all
very
real
those
all
those
risks
are
very
important
and
they
already
need
to
be
recognized.
I
think
you
can
simplify
it,
however,
by
effectively
categorizing
risk
into
what's
the
risk
of
construction
and
getting
the
project
away
and
then
what's
the
risk
of
the
operation
and
the
long
term
operational
asset
and
by
almost
creating
a
regulatory
framework,
we
dresses
the
long
term
regular
sort
of
asset
management
aspect.
Q
O
Think
again,
there's
a
question:
this
isn't
new
to
people
in
the
energy
industry.
Those
are
the
sorts
of
risks
that
are
managed
through
gas
supply
through
electricity
supply.
Already,
the
question
is:
what
is
the
justification
for
introducing
another
asset
class
alongside
gas
and
electricity
and
water
and
all
the
others
that
we
have?
What
is
the
justification
for
adding
a
new
class
with
a
new
set
of
risks,
a
new
set
of
players
and
where
that
makes
sense
where
those
risks
can
be
easily
managed?
G
That
is
just
because
in
Scotland
were
relatively
new
at
district
heating
and
so,
for
example,
things
that
come
up
in
my
area.
Are
we
don't
know
what
the
maintenance
costs
are
going
to
be?
We
don't
know
how
long
pieces
of
the
plan
are
going
to
last,
so
we
don't
know
when
they'll
need
to
be
replaced,
but
presumably
these
are
the
kind
of
questions
that
over
time
will
become
more
familiar
with.
So.
O
It's
really
important
that
we
understand
quite
clearly
what
the
options
for
using
hydrogen
in
place
of
natural
gas
are
going
to
be
before
we
start
looking
at
mass
conversion
to
district
heating
or
electrification,
and
what
the
one
point
I
would
really
want
to
emphasize
is
district
heating
is
not
low-carbon.
It's
not
a
low-carbon
technology.
O
If
you
have
your
district
heating
in
Poland,
it's
very
efficient,
but
it's
run
by
coal
and
it's
very,
very
carbon
intensive
all
pretty
much
all
of
the
major
district
heating
schemes
in
across
Europe
use
fossil
fuels
because
that
they're
cheap
enough,
the
district
heating
with
low
carbon
sources
is
even
more
expensive
to
do,
and
we
don't
actually
have
the
low
carbon
sources
to
deal
with
it
in
the
first
place.
So
there's
another
risk
to
a
denier
that
it's
not,
but
it's
not
low
carbon.
F
I
just
want
to
back
up
that
point
that
builds
on
what
we've
talked
about
at
the
beginning
of
this
session.
There
you
have
the
dual
motives
of
low
cost,
effective,
efficient
heat
supply,
plus
low
carbon,
and
if
you
go
ahead
and
develop
many
local
heat
centers
throughout
a
city
which
are
all
individually
burning,
methane,
gas
or
even
burning
biomass,
then
you
end
up
in
a
cul
de
sac
around
2030,
where
you
can
not
decarbonize
those
very
easily.
F
If
you
want
to
have
a
longer-term
vision,
then
you
would
start
looking
very
seriously
decarbonizing
the
gas
supply
and
converting
that
to
hydrogen,
which
can
then
entirely
go
to
zero
carbon
effectively
throughout
the
country,
rather
than
just
reducing
carbon
by
20
or
30
percent,
which
is
what
we're
talking
about
with
district
heating
so
effectively
in
money
terms.
Again,
we
have
to
think
about
the
money
looking
at
hydrogen
substitution
for
methane
gas
into
the
existing
infrastructure
could
be
3
times
or
10
times
cheaper
than
district
heating.
G
In
miss
Goodin
offices,
your
kind
of
area
here
with
as
we
talk
about
hydrogen
I,
mean
hi
I.
Suppose
my
next
questions.
How
long
do
we
need
to
wait
till
we
can
really
make
a
decision
on
its
a
hydrogen?
Is
it
district
heating
because
we're
we're
getting
a
lot
that
could
be
or
it
might
be,
or
we're
going
to
work
out
the
cost,
but
do
we
need
to
act
even.
P
P
Oh,
no
nope,
new,
hydrogen
and
I
do
think
he
has
a
massive
role
to
play,
but
a
lot
of
people
have
to
be
convinced
about
the
cost
of
injecting
hosting
into
the
gas
cars
and
some
academics
they're
great
tonight,
don't
say
absolutely
no
that
you
would
need
43
percent
more
hydrogen
and
all
these
sort
of
numbers
of
you
know
flailing
around,
but
it's
until
we
actually
do
the
child
in
Scotland,
which
stn
are
going
to
be
undertaking.
We
still
need
to
do
that
trial
and
to
convince
everybody
leave.
P
A
F
Quite
when
I'm
in
favor
of
getting
on
with
pilots
has
been
described
because
otherwise
we'll
never
have
any
real
knowledge
about
this,
and
pilots
can
be
at
scales
of
tens
of
tens
of
homes
or
thousand
Wellings.
This
doesn't
stop
you
also
in
parallel,
because
these
are
this
is
a
multi-decade
transition.
We're
talking
about
in
parallel
with
that,
yes,
district
heating
in
local
authority
tenements,
where
that's
appropriate.
But
what
we
have
to
bear
in
mind
is.
F
We
should
be
doing
that
with
the
point
of
view
that
we
may
be
changing
the
energy
source
from
methane
to
hydrogen
in
ten
or
fifteen
or
twenty
years
time.
So
you
want
to
build
in
that
resilience
and
that
opportunity
to
change
into
the
future,
so
we
don't
build
our
infrastructure
expensively
into
a
cul-de-sac.
Thank.
N
Thank
you.
The
consultation
proposes
a
local
authorities,
but
given
the
perixx
zone
for
for
district
heating
and
also
powers
as
well
to
award
exclusive
concessions
to
develop
an
operate
district
heating
schemes.
Do
you
broadly
agree
that
local
authorities
need
that
power
to
zone
areas
for
district
heating,
and
our
exclusive
concessions
are
way
forward
for
the
construction
and
operation
of
district
heating.
Q
And
so
in
terms
of
zoning
and
concessions,
I
think
it's
certainly
zoning,
whether
you
need
there's
a
related
there's,
a
critical
role
of
local
authorities
in
terms
of
coordination,
and
certainly
zoning
potentially
helps
progress
towards
that
level
of
coordination,
creates
a
clear
signal
around
that.
I
think
the
question
in
terms
of
concessions,
though,
is
then
in
terms
of
actually.
Q
What
do
we
mean
by
a
concession,
because
concession
can
mean
a
multitude
of
things
from
a
fully
regulated
model
through
to
a
very
light
touch,
concession
and
I
suspect.
If,
with
looking
more
the
sort
of
established
robust
regulation,
then
I
suspect
it
could
be
potentially
quite
useful
and
in
terms
of
promoting
district
eating
I
think
the
key
thing,
then,
is
then
making
sure
that
you've
got
coordination
in
terms
of
the
concessions
so
that
you
don't
have
a
sort
of
multitude,
a
patchwork
approach
of
concessionary
sort
of
structures
across
the
whole
area.
O
You
would
want
to
be
sure
that
you
were
going
for
low
regrets
zones
that
that
it
made
sense
to
do
that
anyway,
and
there
are
good
reasons
for
district
heating,
because
it
is
an
efficient
way
of
producing
and
distributing
and
storing
heat
for
for
use.
So,
where
you've
got
that,
then
it
makes
sense
to
have
a
model
within
that
zone
as
to
how
the
developer
and
operator
will
be
given
the
opportunity
to
tender
for
that
and
then
to
some
sort
of
concession
or
in
order
to
to
build
and
then
run
the
system.
N
N
From
experience
with
other
countries,
for
example,
whether
what
what
this
is
a
very
large
transition
that
has
to
be
made
over
a
number
of
decades
and
therefore
government
has
a
big
big
role
to
play.
Whether
there
are
any
examples
of
government
playing
a
kind
of
leadership
transition
rule,
maybe
not
dislocating
than
other
aspects
of
the
energy
I.
Think.
O
It's
worth
remembering
that
nearly
all
of
our
energy
infrastructure
was
built
in
the
public
sector.
We've
done
remarkably
little
in
in
the
private
sector
that
hasn't
been
predetermined
by
legislation
or
regulation,
and
that's
still
the
case
and
I
think
there
are
some
very
clear
questions
as
to
certainly
whether
the
I
think
the
in
order
for
markets
to
play
their
best
role.
O
Then
I
think
that
can
work
quite
well
and
it
gets
over
the
design
and
the
construction
risk,
which
is
often
priced
in
very
expensively
in
the
cost
of
capital
and
I.
Think
for
that
reason
it
should
definitely
be
explored,
but
it
should
be
done
on
the
basis
that
it
still
will
be
the
private
sector
that
delivers
rather
than
we
build
up
a
massive
state-owned
and
and
run
organization
which
builds
and
runs
everything
at
the
end
of
the
day.
O
But
getting
the
cost
of
capital
down
the
most
clear
examples
of
that
that
have
been
calculated
have
been
with
regard
to
nuclear
projects,
where
they
believe
that
doing
it
in
that
sort
of
way
can
get
the
cost
cost
of
capital
down
from
about
12%,
which
is
where
include
point
C
is
to
about
3%,
which
should
be
the
normal
rate
that
would
be
applied
to
a
government
project
and
I'm.
Even
massive
massive
difference
to
the
overall
cost.
F
That
beams
are
done
by
private
enterprise,
and
that
has
to
be
contracted
through
that
system
architect
and
at
the
moment,
in
the
UK
I.
Don't
think
we've
got
a
very
strong
system,
architect,
role
at
all.
Its
laid
off
from
the
Westminster
Government
to
National,
Grid
or
laid
off
to
off
Jim
were
always
laid
off
to
somebody
else
who
denies
real
overarching
responsibility
for
it,
and
that's
not
going
to
change
our
infrastructure
very
easily.
E
Convene
a
VM,
the
watchword
has
been
decarbonisation,
but
one
of
the
other
threads
running
through
the
energy
strategy
is
decentralization
and
I.
Just
wonder
whether
you've
got
a
view
about
the
extent
to
which
that
applies
whether
I
mean.
Presumably,
some
of
the
support
that
lies
behind
the
keenness
on
district
heating
projects
is
precisely
that
localized
decentralized
delivery
mechanism,
so
I
guess.
My
first
question
is
just
to
get
your
views
on
that.
Whether
you
think
that
the
energy
strategy
strikes
the
right
balance
between
a
more
centralized
approach
and
a
decentralized
delivery.
O
But
in
the
case
in
the
last
10-15
years,
heat
is
very,
very
different.
It
is
very,
very
local
by
its
nature,
and
ultimately
you
know
it
will
be
heating
our
home,
which
is
what
we're
looking
for.
It
will
be
hot
water,
it
will
be
cooking
and
all
those
things
at
an
individual
building
or
an
individual
residence
level.
So
I
think
that
there's
a
it's
very
difficult,
therefore,
to
to
say
your
weather,
central
or
local
make
sense,
because,
ultimately
we
want
it
locally
in
our
home.
O
We
don't
want
a
heat
source
on
the
top
of
Arthur's
Seat
that
we
can
all
my
hands
on
from
it
from
a
distance,
so
I
think
the
the
centralization
of
the
solution.
No,
perhaps
a
bit
more
to
use
about
it.
The
electrification
and
decarbonized
gas
are
a
much
more
centrally
determined
solution.
You
can't
have
somebody
choosing
to
have
hydrogen
in
one
house
and
the
street,
and
somebody
else
having
methane
and
somebody
else
having
biogas
in
the
others
that
and
if
we
are
going
to
make
infrastructure
investments,
either
in
electrification
or
in
repurposing
the
gas
grids.
O
That
may
well
be
hydrogen,
but
equally
as
with
the
new
project
in
Glasgow,
it
might
be
taking
heat
out
of
the
River
Clyde
with
a
heat
pump,
and
so
I
think
that
we
need
to
keep
a
very
open
mind
as
to
whether
the
best
solution
is
essential
or
a
local
one,
and
that
you
know
there
isn't
a
single
silver
bullet
and
therefore
there
isn't
a
single
answer
to
what
what
is
best
for
a
particular
area.
Can.
E
I
just
understand
a
bit:
maybe
Stuart
Hazeldine
can
answer
this.
You
said
that
you
were
cautioning
and
are
you're
counseling
caution
at
that
end
of
the
table
and
I
think
we
all
get
that
message
felt
loud
and
clear,
but
is
that
a
reaction
against
an
action?
In
other
words,
are
you
saying?
Well
just
let's
take
this
steady
as
she
goes
rather
than
leaping
headlong
into
putting
all
our
resources
into
district
eating,
for
example,
I
mean,
in
other
words,
will
you
see
our
in
all
likelihood,
a
role
for
district
heating?
F
More,
the
second,
from
my
own
point
of
view,
so
I
think
it's
premature
to
make
any
of
these
big
decisions,
because
we
don't
we've
only
engaged
with
the
problem
on
heat
seriously
really
for
a
few
years
in
Scotland,
so
district
heating
power
we've
had
examples
where
individual
buildings
or
small
groups
of
buildings
can
benefit
from
district
heating
and
that
those
are
going
ahead
to
be
developed.
So
it's
a
low
hanging
fruit
analogy
rather
than
the
Geographics
wading
through
analogy,
and
so
yes,
let
those
thousand
flowers
bloom.
F
So
the
regulation
and
the
policy
and
the
approach
should
commit
those
two
pop
up
and
emerge
where
local
knowledge
and
local
enthusiasm
might
commit
that
to
happen.
But
I
also
strongly
support
Keith's
point
that
the
provision
of
the
basic
energy
vectors
is
often
uneven,
usually
going
to
be
still
centrally
provided
so
they're
still
going
to
be,
even
if
we're
still
going
to
be
a
need
for
centralized
or
a
grid
of
electricity.
So,
even
if
everybody
has
some
solar
panels
on
house,
they
want
electricity
at
night.
F
Even
if
people
might
like
to
have
wind
power,
they
still
want
electricity
in
February
when
the
wind
doesn't
blow
those
are
going
to
require
national
backup
systems
and
national
infrastructure
systems.
If
we
choose
to
change
our
biggest
heat
delivery
system
being
methane
gas
supplying
80
percent
of
dwellings,
if
we
choose
to
keep
that
as
methane
gas,
we
will
miss
our
carbon
targets
so
you're
in
a
stuck
situation
there
in
2030.
F
If
you
choose
to
change
that
delivery
of
methane
to
all
electricity,
you
need
to
have
absolutely
unfeasible
numbers
of
renewable,
build
which
we
have
no
idea
how
to
deliver
at
all.
Or
if
we
choose
to
repurpose
that
into
hydrogen,
then
it's
very
difficult
to
envisage
or
impossible
to
envision,
producing
that
hydrogen
at
cheap
cost
locally.
You
will
have
10
or
20
hydrogen
production
facilities
around
Scotland,
producing
that
hydrogen
to
send
through
the
pipes,
which
is
a
national
infrastructure
role.
So
it's
a
mix
of
horses
for
courses.
Q
Quickly,
I
think
it's
very
important
to
recognize
that
we've
already
got
a
very
established,
well
sort
of
developed,
Network
in
place,
which
is
running
in
sort
of
low
cost
and
as
part
of
the
ions
replacement
program
where
we're
going
through
and
replacing
or
the
an
Platt
pine.
It's
certainly
that's
a
more
local
level,
we're
replacing
those
with
PPS
or
the
plastic
pipes,
which
sort
of
helps
to
then
create
the
sort
of
hydrogen
economy
and
enables
further
glasses
to
be
transported
through
those
pipes.
O
Community
could
I
make
one
more
comment
just
on
the
timing.
The
the
carbon
intensity
of
heat
production
at
the
moment
is
relatively
low
because
we
burn
gas
quite
efficiently.
The
carbon
intensity
of
heating,
in
most
people's
homes,
is
about
half
the
UK
electricity
level,
which
means
that
we
have
to
bring
down
the
carbon
intensity
in
other
sectors
for
quite
some
time
before
the
heat
sector
becomes
the
limiting
factor.
O
That
gives
us
the
advantage
that
we
have
a
little
bit
more
time
to
find
optimal
solutions
for
the
heat
sector
and
why
we
should
properly
wait
for
sgn
and
others
to
complete
the
tests
that
they're
going
to
be
doing
so
that
we
have
the
full
practical
experience
of
things
like
hydrogen
to
actually
base
our
decisions
on,
and
certainly
at
a
UK
level.
Most
of
the
thoughts
that
from
the
Climate
Change
Committee
for
the
period
of
heat
decarbonisation.
O
A
M
Whether
I
could
pursue
this
just
a
little
bit
further,
because
politics
is
all
about
timing,
so
I'm
curious
to
know
from
sgn,
and
when
you
anticipate
that
these
trials
will
be
complete
and
when
we'll
get
a
sense.
If,
if
actually
replacing
missing
gas
with
hydrogen
is,
is
a
real
possibility.
Because
I
hear
what
you
say
about
thirties
and
forties
for
implementation.
But
when
will
we
know
because
big
infrastructure
projects
take
quite
a
bit
of
planning.
Q
Is
that
there's
the
pilot
studies
themselves,
but
then
there's
also
the
surrounding
safety
case
and
a
lot
of
what
the
work
that
we
did
in
terms
of
a
pilot
project
over
in
a
van
in
terms
of
opening
up
the
gas
market
was
looking
at
what
are
the
gas
safety
regulations
for
broadening
out
the
bandwidth
for
allowing
different
gases
to
go
through
those
sorts
of
changes?
Take
time
to
put
go
through
make
sure
that
everybody
is
comfortable
with
that
and
we
shouldn't
lose
sight
of
X.
It's
a
very
important
part
of
the
story
as
well.
Q
O
Other
thing,
hydrogen
is
it's
not
that
new
up
until
the
60s
50%
of
the
gas
that
was
in
our
gas
networks
was
hydrogen
town.
Gas
was
a
strange
mixture
but,
as
I
say
about
half
of
it
with
hydrogen
and
the
rest
was
a
mixture
of
hydrocarbons
and
carbon
monoxide,
which
is
why
it
was
so
effective.
As
with
your
head
in
the
oven
as
a
means
of
end
and
ending
it
all.
But
the
detail.
F
So,
just
to
build
on
that
loss,
absolutely
supporting
Scottish
gas
networks
in
the
safety
culture
and
that's
absolutely
essential,
then
that
I'm
also
interested
that
this
is
not
necessarily
all-or-nothing
in
that
the
gas
network
could
much
of
the
gas
network
seems
to
be
rated
for
10
percent
hydrogen,
because
historically
up
till
about
ten
or
fifteen
years
ago,
that
was
allowed
to
have
that
content
of
hydrogen.
So
you
could
as
a
special
academic
speculation
spike
if
you
like,
insert
10
percent
hydrogen
into
our
existing
gas
delivery
without
any
adverse
consequences.
F
Obviously,
sgn
will
advise
us
on
how
practical
that
is,
but
you
can
start
to
do
this
and
we
I
could
buy
in
effectively
a
hydrogen
generating
plant
with
carbon
capture
and
storage
which
is
operating.
There
are
several
examples
already
operating
worldwide.
This
is
known.
Technology
I
could
drop
that
into
some
Fergus
generate
hydrogen
feed
that
into
the
grid,
take
away
the
carbon
dioxide
and
that
could
be
operating
in
2022.
From
my
perspective,
I've
not
done
this
with
SG
n,
so
anything
they
say
about
safety.
F
Q
Directly
that
point
I
think
there
is.
It
absolutely
agree
that
there's
a
lot
of
work
which
we
can
be
getting
on
with
in
terms
of
increasing
the
blend
over
the
next
sort
of
four
or
five
years.
Absolutely
we're
not
clear
yet
in
terms
of
where
the
absolute
limits
are
in
terms
safety
case,
but
I
think
it's
fair
to
say
that
we've
got
a
fair
amount
to
go
for
there
in
terms
of
decarbonizing
gas,
which
should
keep
us
busy
for
at
least
the
next
five
days.
O
P
Also
an
opportunity
in
a
set
by
middle
of
Dundee
city,
there's
a
very
large
National,
Grid
Stewart
sgn
own
site.
That's
been
like
that
for
last
twenty
years
and
couldn't
be
for
residential
anything
else.
It
really
needs
another
Brown
degree
brownfield
sites
that
is
ideal
for
carrying
out
this
sort
of
testing
that
we
like
to
do,
which
would
be
integrated
energy
system
because
obviously,
I
really
concentrate
on
the
chocolate
side,
because
you
need
demand
and
butters
take
the
demand
and
then
the
decarbonize
LA
City
census.
P
So
there's
a
massive
opportunity
there
that
term
we
should
work
together
on
that.
Equally
I
still
continue
to
work
with
our
European
partners.
We
are,
we
are
now
I
was
taking
some
very
large
scale
projects
very
ambitious
projects
across
Europe
in
terms
of
prison
in
hydrogen
infrastructure
and
fuel
cell
buses
and
fleets,
and
there's
another
incentive
now
underway
about
working
with
cities
and
regions
about
how
do
we
actually
start
to
really
commercialize
Tecno
to
right
across
all
the
sectors?
M
O
Clearly,
it's
possible
and
a
lot
of
the
heat
mapping
that's
been
done
for
Scotland
has
identified
sources
of
waste
heat.
The
difficulty
there
is
just
how
sustainable
is
that
going
to
be
where's?
That
heat
coming
from
at
the
moment
is
probably
coming
from
burning
fossil
fuels,
so
will
that
actually
be
able
to
continue
and
there's
also
the
other
big
problem
I
used
to
be
with
sse
back
in
the
1990's?
O
We
were
developing
combined
Eaton
power
plants
and
the
big
issue
there
was
that
the
industries
like
the
paper
industry,
that
we
were
heavily
involved
with
at
the
time,
unfortunately
in
the
2000s,
went
bust
and
suddenly
there
was
no
heat
anymore
and
it
so
you've
got
to
think
if
I've
got
a
big
source
of
heat.
What
am
I
going
to
do
if
it
breaks
down?
H
Know
I
get
impression
from
the
earlier
discussion
that
we
need
some
form
of
regulation
in
relation
to
district
heating
and
one
of
the
comments
that
was
a
bit
Apache
performance
of
the
existing
district
heating
schemes.
So
we
need
some
form
of
technical
standards
and
in
relation
to
the
lifetime
of
these
projects,
which
have
indicated,
are
quite
wrong.
We
need
some
form
a
consumer
protection
as
well.
So,
given
that
is
there
any
drawbacks
of
challenging
a
licensing
system
may
create
and
given
a
devolved
settlement
above
god,
do
we
actually
have
the
poles
to
introduce
licensing.
Q
Then
that's
a
very
strong
structure
through
which
to
progress
in
terms
of
the
constitutional
sort
of
whether
the
powers
are
there
sufficient
I'm
going
to
have
to
defer
on
that
one
I'm
afraid.
Certainly
it
has
been
noted
by
off
gem
that
they're
they
don't
currently
have
the
remit
to
cover
off
into
the
district
heating
site
and
whether
that's
something
we're
just
going
to
change
or
not
what
sort
of
timetables
it's
going
to
change,
but
there's
clearly
a
there
appears
to
be
a
gap
at
moment.
K
Really
interested
in
your
views
on
how
we
are
going
to
take
the
public
with
us
and
whatever.
That
is
that
we
decide
to
do
because
I'm
in
this
committee
and
I'm
confused,
you
know
and
there's
a
lot
of
choice
out
there
and
there's
a
lot
of
technical
language
around
what
we're
talking
about,
and
your
ordinary
consumer
is
already
got
a
situation.
Q
Think
taking
the
customer
with
us
is
absolutely
vital
and
it's
an
incredibly
challenging
things
to
do,
because
you've
got
multiple
customers
out
there.
Each
one
will
respond
to
information
in
different
ways
and
will
find
different
things.
Informative,
I
think
what
is
clear
is-
and
this
has
sort
of
been
mentioned
before,
but
it's
sort
of
making
sure
that
the
customer
doesn't
go
through
unnecessary
disruption
and
end
up
with
a
stranded
asset.
P
Early
public
consultation
events
have
to
take
place
and
education
education
all
the
way,
because
it
is
very
confusing
whatever
we
decide
to
go
for
and
you've
got
to
have
the
public
buying,
because
otherwise
it's
an
absolute
disaster.
You
know
and
like
we
brought
buses
in
to
Aberdeen
in
there
the
mixed
messages
you
know
you're
out
there
constantly.
You
know
reassuring
the
public.
You
know
why
they
were.
We
had
these
buses
in
Aberdeen
and
it's
really
vital.
We
do
and
we
get
very
clear,
miss
just
out
why
and
what
the
benefits
are
to
the
public.
P
What
worked
bit
more?
It
was
engaging
our
public
consultations
and
going
to
the
schools
just
reaffirm
in
your
press
statements
out
why
we
why
we
were
doing
this
in
Aberdeen
and
because
the
press
would
jump
on
anything
you
do
when
you're
using
the
public
money
and
most
it
was
fund,
is
actually
from
Europe.
There
wasn't
the
point
and
they
like
to
hang
on
the
fact
that
the
price
of
the
bathroom
I
won't
be
pushing
it
into
the
school
or
into
mental
hospital,
say
more
things,
and
so
then
you
have.
P
The
operators
will
start
to
read
back
off
because
you
know
in
a
day
they're
running
those
buses
in
live
operations
and
then
suddenly
you've
got
the
bus
and
a
low
loader,
and
it's
page
coach's
logo
all
over
it
and
which
starts
to
affect
like
that,
and
you
then
have
the
private
sector
and
not
wanted
to
work
with
you.
So
that
is
one
very
small
example.
So
it's
really
key
that
engagement
that
all
stakeholders
is
done
very
early
before
we
even
start
to
chart
the
child's
go
on
before
you
even
come
up
with
that.
O
Nevertheless,
there
are
some
interesting
examples
from
the
past
about
how
we've
made
big
changes
like
this,
and
nearly
all
of
them
have
had
fairly
clear
regulation
at
the
heart
of
them,
so
the
Clean
Air
Act's,
which
effectively
switched
people
from
using
coal
to
using
alternative
heating
sources.
It
was
effectively
a
ban
on
coal
for
heating
in
in
cities.
The
changeover
from
town
gas
to
natural
gas
was
decided
upon.
It
was
done.
There
was
then
a
program
of
change.
O
We
have
had
some
very
effective
regulation
for
changing
gas
boilers
to
make
them
more
energy.
Efficient
we've
had
similar
regulations
for
light
bulbs
and
other
things
which
have
come
in
which
people
have
not
really
altom
utley
had
a
choice
about,
but
apart
from
a
few
moans
and
groans,
the
only
difficulty
now
is
that,
since
these
things
were
always
blamed
on
Brussels,
if
we
don't
have
Brussels
to
blame
them
on,
then
we'll
need
to
find
some
some
somebody
else
to
it.
F
We've
now
charged
lots
of
money,
but
clearly
that's
got
public
buying,
because
people
can
see
that
it's
the
right
thing
to
do
and
it's
created
lots
of
jobs,
and
so
these
things
also
create
jobs
and
business
and
wealth.
So
it's
a
it's,
not
an
onerous
hairshirt
burden.
We
carry
it's
a
it's
about
leadership,
it's
about
doing
the
right
thing
and
it's
about
creating
new
types
of
jobs
and
new
types
of
work
and.
K
O
It's
essential.
The
scale
of
the
task
is
so
enormous
over
such
a
long
period
of
time.
It
has
to
be
done
in
a
way
that
is
cross
parliamentary
cross-party
and
I
also
agree.
The
skill
set
for
such
major
programs
doesn't
usually
sit
comfortably
within
the
civil
service
and
I
agree
with
the
examples
of
the
Olympics
or
the
Commonwealth
Games
as
being
good
examples
where
there
was
a
very,
very
clear
set
of
objectives
and
the
delivery
was
managed
independently,
but
very
effectively,
I
think
in
both
Kate
both
cases.
O
Certainly,
we
weren't
late,
which
wasn't
really
an
option
in
either
of
those,
but
other
big
infrastructure
projects
have
we've
managed
successfully,
but
they
have
to
be
done
independently
of
government
that
what
we're
looking
at
20:50
we've
got
one
chance
of
putting
in
a
any
network,
because
it
will
still
be
there
in
2050,
two
chances
of
putting
in
generation
like
gas
or
wind
or
solar.
Maybe
three
goes
at
boilers
and
end-users,
but
in
that
time
we'll
have
five
price
controls,
7
UK,
Parliament's
and
35
UK
energy
ministers.
O
But
that's
that's
the
run
rate
at
the
moment,
so
I
don't
believe
that
we
have
a
governance
system
at
the
moment
that
is
capable
of
making
the
key
decisions,
and
although
the
tenure
into
position
in
Scotland
is
much
longer
than
it
has
been
in
Westminster,
there's
still
an
awful
lot
of
these
things
that
will
be
dependent
on
that
so
I
think
with
between
the
UK
government
and
the
Scottish
government,
we
need
to
put
a
governance
system
in
place
which
will
be
a
long
long
term,
independent
and
capable
of
delivering
the
massive
programs.
Thank.
K
I
Thank
you
convene
I,
think
actually
Gillian
Martens
probably
covered
most
of
the
things
I
was
going
to
ask
about
in
terms
of
engagement
and
changing
behavior.
What
you
seem
to
be
saying
is
that
that's
a
very
important
aspect
and
it
has
to
start
as
soon
as
possible,
but
we
need
to
know
where
we're
going
before.
We
start
passing
a
message
out
or
we
get
into
one
of
your
cul-de-sacs
I.
Thank
you.
You
refer
to
earlier,
just
because
there's
that
enough
today
says
that's
the
best
truth.
It's
maybe
not
based
on
the
correct
information.
O
O
F
So,
just
as
perhaps
slightly
disagree,
the
objective
for
me
is
2050
to
have
very,
very
low
carbon
across
Scotland
I.
Think
we
probably
all
agree
on
that
on
working
backwards,
2030s
or
2032
is
just
another
milestone.
2025
is
another
milestone.
Here
we
are
in
2017,
we've
actually
already
started.
We've
been
doing
this
for
five
or
ten
years,
so
we're
not
about
to
start
we're
partway
through
we're.
F
Finding
that
the
problem
is,
we've
done
some
of
the
easy,
easier
parts,
the
problem
becoming
more
complicated,
more
interactive
across
horizontally,
if
you
like,
as
well
as
the
pathway
we're
going.
So
we
need
that
better
long-term
security
of
governance,
which
will
also
help
us
inform
to
do
the
pilots
to
do
the
experiments.
So
we
can
make
the
final
decisions
of
some
other
things
in
2025
we're
making
final
decisions
on
yet
more
things
in
2030,
but
it's
that
preparation
along
along
the
journey,
which
is
that
I
think
keith
was
also
talking
about.
Q
Certainly
in
the
2032
target,
AIDS,
absolutely
challenging
and
I
think
it's
absolutely
right
that
it
should
be
challenging
because
I
think
as
an
industry,
we
need
to
have
challenging
targets
to
respond
to
them.
Now.
I
think
that's
very
having
that
sort
of
challenge,
then
that
helps
focus
minds.
It
helps
focus
attention
in
terms
of
addressing
saying
right.
How
do
we
go
about
addressing
these
challenges,
but
we
shouldn't
underestimate
at
just
how
challenging
that
will
be
to
get
that
folk,
centage.
O
Don't
know
that
it's
I
think
we
are
starting.
We
can
see
a
path
to
to
getting
there
I
think
that
the
Scottish
Government's
commitment
to
the
seat
program
and
the
sort
of
recognition
of
the
monies
that
are
going
to
be
necessary
within
that
it
has
been
a
very
good
start.
I
agree,
I,
led
the
work
across
government
and
with
the
expert
groups
that
put
together
the
recommendations
that
turned
into
seat,
and
my
report
was
was
finished
in
January
2015.
O
So
I
agree
with
one
of
the
previous
witnesses
that
it's
a
shame
that
we're
still
taking
quite
some
time
to
get
there,
but
nonetheless
I
think
it
is
a
very
strong
commitment
and
I
think
that
if
you
like,
that
was
the
chicken
or
that
was
the
egg.
We've
got
that
and
we
now
just
need
to
build
on
that
and
put
the
necessary
plans
in
place.
I
think
they're
doable
as
long
as
there
is
the
commitment
and
clearly
as
long
as
the
funding
does
materialize,
for
it
right.