►
Description
Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee
A
The
first
item
on
the
agenda
is
a
decision
by
the
committee
to
take
items
four
five
and
six
and
seven
in
private.
Are
we
agreed
on
that
now?
We
then
move
on
to
item
two
on
the
agenda,
which
is
the
heat
network,
scotland
bill,
and
I
think
we
should
have
on
screen
a
number
of
attendees
joining
remotely
and
they
are
first
of
all,
james
lambert,
who's.
The
director
of
the
competition
and
markets
authority,
charles
wood,
head
of
new
energy
services
and
heat
energy.
A
Can
everyone
hear
me
loud
and
clear,
good,
excellent?
Well,
I'll
start
with
the
first
question,
which
is
about
the
the
definitions
in
the
bill
and
I'm
just
wondering
if
all
of
you
are
satisfied
with
these
or
whether
you
think
there
might
need
to
be
some
tweaking
or
alteration
of
what
the
bill
sets
out
as
the
the
definitions
section.
One,
for
example,
defines
a
heat
network
as
either
a
district
heat
network
or
a
communal
heating
system.
A
B
A
C
Good
morning,
thank
you
convina,
so
the
definition
given
in
the
bill
is
adequate.
It
does
give
the
enough
leeway
for
future
technologies
and
for
the
wide
range
of
technologies
that
can
be
used
for
heat
networks.
So
we
are
broadly
happy
with
that.
As
secondary
legislation
and
regulation
are
put
in
place,
there
may
be
need
for
more
clarity,
but
at
present
we
are
very
happy.
A
B
D
I
I
think
it
may
be
useful
to
include
within
the
scope
and
the
definition
ambient
loops
and
that's
an
emerging
area
of
heat
networks.
Now,
where
you're
distributing
ambient
temperatures,
that
can
then
be
boosted
at
individual
building
level,
and
so
it
may
not
be
adequately
taken
care
of
at
the
moment.
A
E
F
Thanks
very
much
gordon
good
morning
to
the
committee
and
to
the
to
the
panel,
and
my
questions
are
really
all
about
licensing
and
just
to
get
a
flavor
of
what
the
panel
thinks
about
this
I'll.
Just
roll
a
few
questions
together,
gordon
and
see
if
we
could
get
a
little
discussion
going
in
this
initially.
F
Should
the
license
standard
conditions
of
race
to
the
licensing
authority,
as
proposed
in
the
bill
and
probably,
lastly,
convener
on
the
issue
of
a
regulation,
heat
regulation
has
devolved
to
the
scottish
parliament
so
who
should
regulate
the
industry?
Do
they
think
it
should
off
gem,
provide
that
service
for
us,
or
should
we
set
up
our
own
regulator
or
and
just
to
have
a
little
discussion
around?
That
would
be
very
helpful.
So
maybe
if
I
could
firstly
hear
from
marcus
and
donald
and
then
of
course,
from
james
and
charles,
that
would
be
very
welcome.
E
I
think
in
terms
of
your
question
around
who
should
effectively,
you
know,
govern
the
licensing
regime.
We
think
there
are
potentially
some
benefits
in
giving
that
to
a
authority
such
as
off
gem.
That's
got
some
experience,
obviously,
of
regulating
energy
networks
and
that
could
provide
some
benefits.
E
Yep,
sorry
yeah.
We
think
that
a
an
authority
such
as
off
gem
may
be
well
placed
to
to
regulate
such
you
know,
heat
networks,
and
we
also
think
that
I
think
the
license
conditions
need
to
be
prescriptive
enough,
that
they
give.
You
know
consumers
protection
in
the
heat
network
space,
but
also
give
investors
protection
to
make
sure
that
the
networks
you
know
which
are
still
kind
of
an
emerging
market
could
be
successful
and
deliver
us
as
we
hope
they
will
do.
D
And
yeah
we
see
some
real
benefits
in
the
licensing
regime
to
drive
consistency
and
it's
important
for
consumer
protection,
but
it's
also
important
for
consistency
in
the
way
that
networks
are
developed.
You
know,
bringing
in
industry.
Standards
to
to
to
the
area
would
be
really
useful.
So,
for
example,
what
we've
seen
in
early
developments
is
that
something
as
simple
as
say,
water
quality
within
a
district
heat
network.
There
are
different
standards
being
promoted
at
the
moment
by
designers,
and
that
can
lead
to
delays
and
debate.
D
Shall
we
say
well:
well,
the
the
actual
standard
to
be
adopted
within
the
network
has
been
worked
through,
so
getting
that
clarity
is
really
important
for
designers
developers
and
contractors.
This
is
important
that
those
standards
also
support
the
longevity
of
the
networks
being
developed.
You
want
you
want
to
have
long-term
assets
in
the
ground.
That
will
stand
the
test
of
time
and
I
think
that's
where
the
the
specifications
and
the
standards
are
really
important.
E
We
believe
that
I
think
you
know
it's
important
to
have
competent
and
credible
entities
delivering
heat
networks
to
ensure
I,
I
guess,
confidence
from
consumers
and
also
other
authorities
and
the
the
thing
I
think
we
just
need
to
be
careful
of.
Is
that,
because
this
is
an
emerging
market-
and
I
think
you
know,
has
the
potential
to
grow
and
and
and
gain
interest
from
new
entrants
it
it
doesn't
become
a
bar,
that's
too
high
and
effectively
restricts
it
to
a
very
small
number
of
players.
E
B
Thank
you.
We
welcome
the
proposal
for
licensing
very
much.
We
thought
it
was
important
to
ensure
that
there
are
requirements
around
hitting
proper
person
to
operate
the
heat
network
and
also
for
technical
standards
to
protect
consumers
from
poorly
designed
and
poorly
designed,
potentially
expensive
heat
networks.
C
So
there's
a
many
points
there
we
so
firstly
good
morning
and
thank
you
for
the
questions
very
good
questions,
but
agree
on
licensing
with
everybody.
That's
already
spoken.
It
is
absolutely
critical
that
this
part
of
the
industry
be
brought
up
the
same
standards
that
the
rest
of
the
industry
is
being
held
to
so
having
this
sort
of
licensing
and
the
licensing
set
forward
seemed
sensible
in
terms
of
should
experience
factor
into
applications
no
effectively.
C
The
the
quality
of
the
application
should
be
the
factor,
and
you
will
see
that
those
more
experienced
companies
will,
of
course
be
able
to
put
in
a
more
effectively
higher
quality
application.
But
if
a
new
competitor
comes
into
the
market,
they
should
be
able
to
compete
on
a
level
playing
field
with
those
other
providers
in
terms
of
consumer
protections.
C
How
to
establish
those
yes
put
some
of
those
in
the
licensing
and
require
those.
But
it's
very
likely
at
this
point
that
the
energy
ombudsman,
ombudsman
services
would
step
into
that
role,
so
just
making
sure
that
there's
coordination
across
scottish
and
uk
governments
on
that
approach
and
that
those
consumer
protections
are
at
least
held
to
the
same
sort
of
standards,
regardless
of
who
eventually
takes
control
of
those
and
finally,
on
who
the
regulator
should
be.
C
F
If
I've
looked
at
the
uk
government's
framework
document
that
works,
I
think
it
came
around
at
the
start
of
this
year
and
it
recognizes
the
difference
between
portland
and
the
rest
of
the
uk
in
respect
of
some
of
the
responsibilities,
for
example
in
scotland,
in
this
area
we
control
building
regulations,
but
uk
control,
fuel
standards
and
fuel
specifications,
and
things
like
that.
So
there's
a
distinction
to
be
made
there.
E
I
think
one
thing
from
my
experience
and
looking
at
kind
of
how
the
water
retail
market
for
non-household
customers
evolved
in
scotland
and
england,
I
think,
having
a
level
of
consistency
both
from
a
licensing
perspective
in
terms
of
how
that's
both
applied
for
evaluated
and
provided
and
the
conditions
that
accompany
that
license
and
the
obligations
it
places
on
providers
is
quite
important,
I
think
any
new
entrant.
That's
you
know
looking
to
get
into
the
into
the
market.
I
think
it
it.
E
It
creates
challenges
where
licenses
and
regimes
are
different
and
and
effectively
that
that
creates
cost
and
potential
administrative
burden
that
that
is
perhaps
effect.
You
know
eventually
passed
on
to
consumers,
so
I
think
where
there
can
be
consistency
across
licensing
regimes
both
in
scotland
and
england,
that
that
would
help
a
lot.
I
think,
from
a
new
entrance
perspective,
and
it
helps
with
you
know.
It
helps
not
having
to
navigate
different
regimes
which
can
effectively
cause
complexity.
D
It
is
building
on
that
point.
Markets
has
just
made
with
regards
to
competition
in
the
water
sector.
I
think
it's
an
important
point
to
think
about
here
in
heat
with
regards
to
potential
failure
of
operators
and
suppliers
of
last
resort
in
the
water
sector.
Obviously
there
was
a
situation
where
it
was
a
competition
evolved
effectively
from
city
incumbents.
So
you
had
you
had
a
backstop
there.
You
had
a
supply
of
last
resort
already
in
place,
not
necessarily
the
situation
here
where
we're
talking
about
involving
new
market
for
for
heat
networks.
A
G
Thank
you
mayor
good
morning,
I'd
like
to
explore
some
issues
around
the
consenting
process.
Fuel
poverty
is
included
as
a
proposed
assessment
criteria
for
consents
in
the
policy
memorandum.
Now
it
doesn't
appear
on
the
face
of
the
bill.
Although
decarbonization
does
do
you
think
the
consenting
process
adequately
takes
into
account
fuel
poverty
and
decarbonization.
G
C
C
As
you
get
more
into
the
further
detail
of
this
and
potentially
some
of
the
transitory
requirements
for
going
from
the
current
markets
to
this
new
market,
you
will
have
to
get
into
further
detail
about
how
fuel
poverty
is
addressed,
and
that
will
be
absolutely
critical
to
making
sure
that
this
addresses
the
needs
of
consumers.
First,
that
it
does
include
reductions
in
carbon
as
something
that
consumers
need.
E
G
G
D
I
think
that
the
word
was
used
earlier
on
of
flexibility.
I
think
the
key
here
is
flexibility
that
we
we
have
that
ability
to
difficult
sitting
here
today.
You
know
knowing
what's
going
to
come
forward
in
10
15
20
years
time
from
the
point
of
view
of
innovation,
but
I
think
we
need
to
make
sure
that
whatever's
put
in
place.
This
system
is
flexible
enough
to
take
account
of
that,
and
we
can
bring
those
future
technologies
into
play.
D
C
E
That's
been
established
so
that
if,
for
example,
a
new
technology
emerges
over
the
you
know
over
the
course
of
you
know,
of
course
of
time
you
can
change
the
the
underlying
fuel
source
that
powers,
the
heat
network,
that
keeps
the
heat
network
in
place,
and
I
think
there's
a
there's
a
risk
in
trying
to
you
know
future
proof.
It
too
much
at
this
stage
in
that
it
you
know
it.
E
I
D
I
I
C
So
that
is
a
very
important
question.
The
decarbonisation
of
heat
across
the
uk,
and
particularly
across
scotland,
is
absolutely
reliant
on
getting
consumers
to
understand,
what's
happening
and
to
understand
that
their
existing
method
of
heat
may
be
high
carbon
and
that
they
should
be
going
on
something
else.
Engaging
with
those
consumers
and
saying
here
are
the
options.
C
So
getting
ahead
of
that
by
engaging
at
the
local
level
getting
local
authorities
involved
and
using
their
ability
and
their
reach
into
that
community
to
state.
This
is
what's
going
to
happen,
and
here's
how
you
can
input
into
that
process
is
absolutely
critical
to
getting
people
on
board,
getting
them
to
understand
and
getting
them
to
make
the
most
of
those
new
assets,
so
yeah,
absolutely
critical
that
they
have
a
say
and
some
sort
of
input
in
the
process.
I
C
Yes,
so
there
should
be
a
degree
of
that
where
we're
looking
at
things
like
public
buildings
being
decarbonized
using
heat
networks
or
public
spaces
being
decarbonized.
That
makes
a
lot
more
sense
for
a
larger
developer
to
come
in,
but
when
it's
at
that
community
level,
getting
them
involved
and
giving
them
understanding
and
consent
is
really
helpful
in
terms
of
pushing
forward
that
agenda.
If
you
look
at
the
existing
understanding
of
consumers,
they
understand
climate
change,
they
understand
decarbonization
and
they
want
to
contribute
to
that.
C
C
But
you
also
look
at
the
stat
statistics
that
tell
us
that
around
60
of
consumers
don't
even
recognize
that
their
boiler
is
an
emitting
technology,
so
getting
past
that
understanding
and
getting
them
engaged
is
the
first
step
and
then
whether
they
want
to
progress
something
themselves
and
apply
their
own
approach
to
the
heat
network
and
bring
in
their
own
application
or
if
they
want
to
go
to
a
third
party,
and
just
say
this
is
an
area.
This
is
a
zone
in
which
we'd,
like
a
heat
network,
please
apply
here
so
figuring
out.
C
E
E
If
we
take
the
situation
the
moment
where
people
don't
realize
their
boilers
are
admitting,
that's
quite
a
big
step
to
move
to
a
position
where
they
would,
you
know,
understand
heat
networks
in
totality.
So
it
feels
that
some
form
of
consumer
engagement
and
communications
program
would
really
support
this
bill
and
and
help
people
and
the
wider
public
understand
the
benefits
of
heat
networks.
B
Thank
you
just
to
answer
the
points
on
consumer
engagement.
When
we
published
our
report,
we
identified
a
number
of
issues
around
the
lack
of
consumer
engagement
with
heat
networks
and
in
turn
that
could
lead
to
poor
outcomes
for
consumers
if
people
didn't
understand,
for
example,
they're
moving
on
to
a
heat
network
or
what
the
terms
and
conditions
were
no
issues
around,
for
example,
transparency
of
billing
and
so
on.
So
I
think
any
initiative
to
help
consumers
engage
with
networks
will
be
positive.
J
Thank
you
convener
and
welcome
panel,
I'm
interested
in
the
transfer
scheme
and
particularly
regarding
scottish
waters,
evidence
regarding
the
potential
emission
in
the
bill
of
how
existing
heat
networks
will
be
treated
and
what
happens
if
these
schemes
fail
to
get
a
license.
How
would
they
then
be
transferred
in
any
valuation
around
these?
Perhaps
you
could
clarify
your
concerns
and
suggest
how
the
bill
could
be
improved.
D
Yes,
it's
really
around.
The
point
of
I
think
has
been
made
on
previous
questions
around
further
detail.
We
would
really
interest
to
see,
because
there
are
existing
schemes
in
place
already,
obviously,
and
if
we're
talking
about
having
having
ld's
areas
that
then
become
zones,
if
you
like,
those
zones,
could
have
existing
projects
within
them
and
how
would
how
would
the
allocation
to
when
one
consent
be?
How
would
then
deal
with
existing
schemes?
Really
it
was.
D
J
B
So
I
think
a
starting
point-
networks,
natural
monopolies,
and
we
met
with
interest
the
transfer
requirements
as
a
way
of
ensuring
that,
after
a
period
of
time
that
there
can
be
a
competition
for
heat
networks,
I
think
what
was
important
was
to
ensure.
I
think
somebody
already
seeks
to
do
that.
Encompassing
advantages
were
removed
in
that
process.
B
I
think
it's
difficult
to
say
at
this
stage
we
didn't
gather
evidence
specifically
in
our
market
study
on
transfers,
because
that
was
predated
the
the
bills,
so
we
can
particularly
gather
information
on
that
I
mean,
I
think
it's
certainly
the
case
from
the
evidence.
We
did
gather
that
there
is
interest
in
the
heat
network
sector
across
the
uk.
J
Thank
you
james,
just
in
terms
of
how
the
market
develops.
These
are
the
a
uk
wide
market
where
you
know,
consumers
and
those
operators
would
be
facing
the
same
costs
and
prices
versus.
If
you
created
two
markets,
one
in
scotland,
one
in
the
rest
of
the
uk,
is
it
possible
or
or
is
there
a
trade-off
between
the
price
the
consumer
receives
and
the
attractiveness
on
investment
and
clearly,
if
there's
two
markets,
how
likely
is
it
that
those
two
markets
would
function
exactly
the
same
and
avoid
any
trade-off.
B
It's
a
good
question.
I
think
it's
quite
difficult
to
answer
just
on
the
basis
that
there's
such
heterogeneity
amongst
heat
networks,
so
across
england
and
wales,
and
also
across
scotland,
based
on
our
engagement
and
visits
to
various
feat
networks,
there's
a
such
a
wide
variety
of
networks
in
terms
of
their
cost
base
and
the
prices
that
they
charge.
It's
almost
quite
difficult
to
imagine
a
what's
a
separate
sort
of
scottish
and
western
uk
market.
It's
much
more
of
a
almost
a
continuum
of
schemes.
I
think
it
in
many
ways
will
be.
B
There
are
some
specific
factors
in
scotland,
for
example
around
some
policies,
but
also
around,
I
think,
a
high
prevalence
with
smaller
schemes,
for
example,
and
in
terms
of
the
price
paid
by
customers.
I
think
we
saw
a
close
link
with
the
the
cost
of
networks.
So
if
there's
efficiency
in
the
process
between
the
design
and
build
stage
example
in
scale
or
attracting
this
to
investors
so,
for
example,
competing
bids
or
a
network,
I
think
that
in
turn
could
help
consumers
through
lower
prices.
C
Yes,
thank
you
harris,
so
the
level
of
competition
you're,
seeing
currently
not
going
to
be
reflective
of
the
level
of
competition
you'll,
see
once
the
bill
is
in
place
and
once
you've
gotten
into
the
further
detail,
and
that
is
one
of
the
reasons
that
we
really
enjoy.
The
fact
that
you've
brought
this
bill
forward
is
because
it's
giving
that
confidence
to
investors
is
going
to
reduce
the
risk
of
investment.
C
It's
going
to
increase
the
number
of
people
who
want
to
participate
in
this
area
and
heat
networks
are
not
a
new
technology
they're,
not
a
brand
new
thing
that
everybody's
trying
to
wrap
their
heads
around
it's
something
that's
been
across
in
place
across
the
uk
for
a
long
time,
so
this
market
is
fit
for
sort
of
moving
forward
and
for
having
a
great
expansion,
and
this
bill
absolutely
will
help
with
that.
So
the
level
of
competition
in
the
first
early
years
may
be
slow.
C
It
may
be
a
lower
number
than
you
would
like
to
see,
but
the
fact
that
you've
got
this
bill
in
place
means
that
that
competition
will
improve
and
grow
as
it
develops
as
the
market
develops.
You
certainly
shouldn't
be
hesitating
about
scotland
moving
faster
than
the
rest
of
the
uk.
It's
absolutely
a
boon
to
the
rest
of
the
market
for
scotland
to
be
moving
at
pace
and
given
your
specific
decarbonization
targets,
it's
absolutely
necessary
that
you
move
forward
at
this
pace.
A
A
If
we
think
in
terms
of
the
way
things
are
set
up
at
the
minute,
individual
customers
can
simply
change
provider,
at
least
in
theory,
once
they've
gone
through
the
various
difficulties
that
may
arise
in
doing
that.
How
is
this
going
to
provide
consumers
individually
with
an
ability
to
ensure
that
they're
getting
the
best
quality
of
delivery
in
terms
of
what
they're
looking
at,
rather
than,
if
I
put
it
that
way,
rather
than
in
terms
of
simply
lowest
price,
so
best
quality
and
effective
service.
B
I
think
if
the
tender
is
well
constructed,
I
think
it
would
enable
there
to
be
a
range
of
factors
taken
into
account
in
the
bidding
process
so,
for
example,
price,
but
also
service,
quality,
technical
expertise,
for
example.
So
examples
from
other
markets,
all
those
factors
count.
You
know
in
a
scoring
system
towards
selecting
the
the
winning
bidder.
A
But
I
I
think
what
you're
saying
that
that's
I
mean
the
individual
consumers
not
going
to
have
the
flexibility.
Will
they
in
terms
of
the
the
provision
of
services
here.
So
how
does
the
individual
consumer
ensure
value
for
money?
I'm
not
saying
it.
This
system
can't
provide
that,
but
but
how
does
that
happen?
Because
surely
it's
more
inflexible
than
if
simply
individual
consumers
are
deciding.
B
So
I
think,
there's
a
challenge
within
the
heat
network
sector
around
the
role
for
individual
consumers
on
the
basis
that,
once
someone's
on
the
heat
network
and
contracts
along
it's
difficult
and
it's
not
impossible
to
switch
either
because
they're
in
a
contract
or
they
have
continued
to
pay
upstanding
charge,
even
if
they
were,
for
example,
to
install
their
own
electric
heating.
For
example.
B
I
think
what
we
recommended
in
that
area
was
to
empower
the
consumer
as
much
as
possible,
through
transparency
and
so
transparency
prior
to
moving
into
the
network
and
then
also
once
on
a
heat
network
to
have
transparency
of
billing
standing
charges,
for
example.
So
consumers
don't
have
the
ability
to
go
to
an
ombudsman,
for
example,
to
raise
complaints
or
to
challenge
their
bills.
A
Yes,
I'm
not
sure
that
going
to
an
ombudsman
will
make
a
difference
to
the
can
the
service
the
consumer
receives.
I
should
also
say
if
there's
issues
that
we
raise
or
that
are
raised
during
the
session,
that
you
want
to
write
into
the
committee
on.
Please
do
so
if
you
don't
feel
you've
had
an
opportunity
to
properly
cover
matters
or
if
there's
specific
detail
you
want
to
go
into
which
we
don't
have
time
for
here
I'll,
perhaps
let
marcus
come
in
on
this
point.
Before
we
move
on
to
questions
from
john
mason,
marcus.
E
How
do
we
ensure
that
consumers
aren't
disadvantaged
going
forward?
So
I
think
we
would
probably
like
to
see
regulation
in
an
economic
sense,
evolve
over
time,
proportionate
to
the
size
and
scale
of
the
market,
but
that
gives
consumers
protection
and
ensures
that
those
natural
monopolies
aren't
exploited.
A
K
Hey
thanks
very
much
a
convener,
and
I
was
interested
in
mr
wood's
point
that
we
should
be
encouraging
pace
and
we
want
to
move
all
this
forward
and
it
has
been
suggested
in
some
of
the
evidence.
The
committee
has
a
received
that
there
should
be
more
of
an
obligation
to
connect
new
buildings,
public
sector
buildings
and
non-domestic
buildings.
So
I'd
be
interested,
mr
wood,
to
start
with
a
in
your
thoughts
as
to
should
there
be
more
compulsion?
Should
there
be
more
obligation
in
all
of
this.
C
Thank
you,
john.
So
when
it
comes
to
new
builds
in
particular,
it
certainly
should
be
obligation
to
be
at
least
considering
what
the
lowest
lowest
carbon
options
are.
And
if
it's
not
a
heat
network,
then
it
should
be
another
option.
Another
technology
that
can
reduce
the
carbon
emissions
of
that
building
further
than
the
heat
network
would
be
able
to.
But
this
sort
of
comes
back
to
the
point
on
community
and
the
point
on
local
engagement
and
if
you
can
coordinate
local
industry
and
attract
local
industry
or
new
industries
to
come
into
local
areas.
C
If
you
can
attract
those
organizations
to
come
and
join
the
local
community
and
in
doing
so
use
that
otherwise
wasted
heat
to
help
heat
people's
homes
and
public
buildings,
then
you
are
effectively
bringing
them
into
that
community
and
helping
to
have
a
further
sense
of
a
community
decarbonization
effort
and
creating
their
ability
to
move
on
to
local
area.
Energy
planning,
and
that's
something
that
scotland
has
certainly
been
leading
in
in
terms
of
the
approach
to
local
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategies
and
the
ability
to
just
start.
K
So
if
I
can
just
press
you,
maybe
on
that
and
then
come
on
to
mr
mcbrain
and
others
who
should
be
driving,
that
then,
should
that
be
the
local
authority,
that's
driving.
It
should
be
the
local
community,
that's
driving
it
or
should
it
be
the
business
or
whoever
is
coming
in
or
the
the
development
company
I
mean
I've
got.
For
example,
in
my
constituency
I've
got
the
commonwealth
games
village.
That
was
very
much
agreed
that
this
should
be
the
way
forward,
a
heat
network,
but
who
should
be
driving
it
in
a
new
project.
C
C
But
there
is
a
significant
role
for
consistency
to
be
delivered
by
scottish
governments
to
be
delivered
at
a
higher
level.
To
say
this
is
the
approach
that
should
be
taken
in
terms
of.
If
you
want
to
connect
to
this
local
area
right
next
to
a
heat
network,
full
consideration
should
be
given
to
connecting
to
that
heat
network.
It
can't
just
be
a
matter
of
oh
well.
There
is
a
heat
network
there,
but
we're
not
going
to
connect
because
we
don't
feel
like
it.
It
should
be.
We've
looked
at
the
cost,
benefit
analysis.
C
We've
looked
at
the
approach
and
what
impact
this
would
have
on
decarbonization
on
fuel
poverty
and
on
our
ability
to
contribute
to
the
local
economy,
and
those
factors
should
be
factored
into
whether
or
not
that
decision
is
made
to
connect.
So
it
should
be
a
consistent
approach
across
scottish
scottish
government,
but
there
is
a
role
for
local
authorities
to
enforce
and
push
that.
D
Just
on
the
point
of
the
the
large
local
authority
anchored
loads,
I
think
there's
merit
in
compulsions
connect,
because
it's
it's
these
big
loads
that
actually
help
to
make
projects
stack
up
and
make
them
viable
that
you
can
then,
once
once
you've
got
effectively
a
heat
island,
you
can
then
build
out
from
and
connect
more
and
more
properties
having
that
base
load
from
local
authority
type
buildings
that
are
either
the
long
term.
The
consistent
demand.
K
Okay,
thank
you.
I
don't
know
if
either
or
two
wanted
to
come
in
at
this
point
or
I'll
move
on
mother
next
question,
was
it
really
aimed
at
sgn,
because
I
was
interested
in
your
submission
that
you
were
suggesting
a
that
permits
should
be
in
perpetuity
now.
That
was
interesting
because
that
sounds
like
I
mean
not
only
a
monopoly
but
a
monopoly
forever,
and
I
mean
my
thought
would
have
been
well.
Surely
the
costs
will
be
covered
after
15
or
25
years,
the
capital
costs.
K
E
E
So
if
a
heat
network
licensee
was
revoked
for
some
reason,
perhaps
for
non-performance
on
another
network
and
that
license
was
no
longer
provided
what
would
happen
to
consumers.
I
think
that
was.
That
was
the
angle.
We
were
really
coming
for
on
on
that
specific
point,
and
I
guess
also
that
there's
a
question
about
what
is
the
right
time
frame
and
therefore
you
know
for
investment
to
be
certain
and
and
established.
E
It
needs
to
be
time
bound
to
an
appropriate
point
that,
like
you
say,
recovers
that
investment,
and
I
think
different
schemes
will
have
different
profiles
and
therefore
a
a
a
sort
of
a
a
one
size
fits
all
approach
perhaps
doesn't
work
there.
I
think
that's
we
were.
We
were
really
coming
it
at
that
point
from.
K
I
mean
presumably
something
like
the
pipe
work:
a
to
convey
the
water
around
has
a
fairly
predictable
life.
I
mean,
is
it
I
don't
know
what
it
is?
Is
it
30
years
or
50
years,
or
something
like
that?
I
mean
the
generation.
Capacity
might
be
more
unpredictable,
might
be
shorter
term,
but
I
mean,
I
think
the
fear
would
be
if
it's
in
perpetuity
that
although
you're
arguing
that
it
protects
consumers,
surely
there's
also
a
risk
that
consumers
are
exploited
because
somebody
a
has
got
that
permit
forever.
E
K
C
If
there
is
a
contract
that
goes
over
a
certain
period
of
time,
it
should
be
allowed
that
the
organization
that
first
set
up
the
heat
network
is
able
to
get
a
reasonable
return
on
that
sort
of
established
network.
But
at
that
point
once
they've
reached
that
sort
of
tipping
point,
there
should
be
a
competitive
process.
Competition
is
effectively
a
positive
measure
across
energy
markets.
It
reduces
costs,
it
encourages
companies
to
have
better
customer
service
to
create
efficiencies
so
having
a
tender
process.
C
K
Okay,
thanks
very
much
and
my
final
point:
if
I'm
a
convener
a
is
in
relation
to
scottish
water,
because
I
understand
you
had
a
situation
in
sterling
or
you
have
a
situation
sterling
where
it's
joined
with
the
council
and
scottish
water
are
producing
the
heat
and
the
council
are
distributing
it,
and
I
think
you
were
raising
the
point
about.
Would
that
be
a
complication
for
permits
and
licenses?
D
Really
just
around,
I
think
the
definitions
around
networking,
while
the
network
included
the
the
energy
center
aspect
of
that,
so
we've
got
situations
where
effectively,
we've
we've
developed.
There's
a
few
points,
perhaps
linking
here
as
well.
We've
got
the
the
energy
center
that
we've
developed
at
the
wastewater
treatment
works,
uses
heat
from
the
waste
water,
so
it's
quite
a
circular
economy,
low
carbon
type
approach
and
that
that
heat
then
goes
out
into
the
network
that
the
council
own
and
so
in
terms
of
the
definition
of
the
the
license.
D
Well,
is
it
covered?
Does
it
cover
two
operators?
You
know
within
within
one
contract
there
effectively
more
a
question
of
how
that
energy
center
aspect
would
be
handled
within
the
bill
in
the
next
stage
of
the
bill
and
because
you
could
see,
for
example,
over
time
as
as
the
council's
network
grows,
which
they
intended
to
do.
There
could
be
other
forms
of
heat
from
other
other
generators
coming
into
that
same
network.
D
C
C
Throughout
covid
energy
uk
has
taken
on
a
role
as
a
convener
of
all
of
the
points
and
pressure
points
and
any
issues
that
industry
is
encountering
as
we
go
through
those
six
months
and
we've
seen
a
lot
of
examples
of
companies
making
sure
that
their
consumers
are
still
connected
are
still
able
to
top
up
their
prepayment
meters
and
no
one's
going
cold
throughout
covid,
and
we
will
continue
to
do
that.
But
it's
important
that
that
is
also
reflected
in
heat,
so
you're
absolutely
right
to
ask
that
question
of
how
their
their
needs
are
protected.
C
It's
really
important
that
and
I'm
sure
that
cma
may
want
to
step
in
on
this.
But
organizations
like
the
cma
and
the
assistance
advice
bureau
for
scotland
so
are
stepping
into
that
role
and
giving
advice
and
understanding
for
consumers,
and
it's
also
important
that
whenever
a
consumer
is
on
a
heat
network,
they
understand
who
it
is
they're
supposed
to
call.
If
something
goes
wrong.
They
should
have
a
direct
route
of
recourse
if
anything's
happening
that
they
are
unhappy
with
or
uncomfortable
with.
It's
really
important.
L
B
L
B
B
L
L
M
M
D
M
C
So
there
is
a
degree
to
which
the
process
will
rely
on
epcs
and
existing
data
that's
available,
and
the
epc
is
the
most
commonly
available
bit
of
data
that
can
be
used
to
check
out
the
housing
stock
and
what
the
local
building
stock
has
in
terms
of
capabilities
in
terms
of
weaknesses,
and
but
it
is
not
the
be-all
and
end-all.
It's
something
that
can
be
improved
upon.
C
Epcs,
don't
necessarily
take
into
account
everything
that
could
be
factored
into
heat,
for
example,
but
that
is
a
very
useful
basis
to
begin
the
process,
and
I
think
further
issues
will
have
to
be
looked
at
in
terms
of
what
are
the
local
information
that
you
can
gather
from
networks,
whether
that's
the
gas
network
or
the
electricity
network,
on
what
capacity
is
available.
What
the
best
solution
would
be
in
terms
of
the
lowest
cost
option.
C
C
Do
you
have
the
manufacturing
available
locally?
Do
you
have
a
local
supply
chain
that
could
really
be
bolstered
by
a
heat
network
and
also
what
sort
of
local
industry
do
you
have
that
could
get
engaged
in
the
process
and
could
be
offering
waste
heat
or,
as,
as
I
said,
the
waste
water
that
could
be
used
as
well
to
be
used
in
heating?
So
a
lot
of
different
factors
come
into
this
epcs
are
part
of
it,
but
they
are
not
the
whole
picture.
C
There
are
new
technologies
that
should
be
explored
as
well,
just
in
terms
of
technologies
that
give
you
a
better
understanding
of
where
the
energy
efficiency
issues
may
be
across
the
housing
stock
and
give
you
potentially
more
granular
data
on
where
you
should
be
targeting
interventions,
and
that
certainly
is
something
that
should
be
looked
at
as
you
further
progress.
This
approach
to
local
deployment
and
local
heat
zones.
M
M
You
know
as
well
as
I
do
better
than
I
do,
that
heating
is
a
cost
to
people
and
basically
we
have
to
sometimes
it's
heating
or
eating,
and
we
have
to
try
and
see
if
we
can
get
a
better
cost
for
heating.
So
how
should
information
for
consumers
be
presented
to
ensure
that
they
fully
understand
the
cost
and
the
implication
of
living
in
a
property
with
a
heat
network?
M
B
Thank
you.
So
we
did
see
a
risk
before
somebody
moves
into
a
property
either
through
an
estate
agent
or
through
a
landlord,
if
there
being
insufficient
information
about
the
heat
network
that
was
based
partly
on
consumer
survey
work,
but
also
our
own
survey.
Most
of
the
feedback
we
had
was
that
the
engine
performance
certificates
were
not
as
efficient
alone,
partly
because
the
information
they
included
was
very
limited,
and
particularly
with
regard
to
heat
networks.
H
Thanks
very
much
convener.
Thank
you
good
morning
panel.
I
just
want
to
return
first
of
all
to
a
question.
It
would
have
grant
asked
about
local
engagement
and
and
very
specifically,
in
the
consenting
regime
under
under
part.
Two.
At
the
moment,
the
consenting
is
granted
by
scottish
ministers.
Local
authorities,
either
as
local
authorities
or
as
planning
authorities,
have
no
role
in
the
system,
and
that
contrasts
strongly
with,
for
example,
denmark,
where
their
98
municipalities
are
responsible
for
approving
projects
within
the
national
framework,
of
course.
C
C
If
you
look
across
the
uk,
you
can
see
that
various
different
local
authorities
have
come
up
with
their
own
net
zero
targets,
their
own
plans,
their
own
intentions,
and
you
can
also
see
that,
looking
just
in
scotland,
for
example,
dundee
with
electric
vehicle
charging
or
fife
with
their
own
heat
network,
there
are
ways
in
which
local
authorities
can
progress.
The
agenda
a
lot
faster
so
including
them,
is
absolutely
critical
to
making
sure
that
the
local
community
is
on
board,
and
but
we
understand
the
desire
to
allow
for
ministers
to
have
that
overarching
coordination.
C
And
that
will
help
to
reduce
the
amount
of
divergence
between
local
authorities
and
hopefully
enable
better
coordination
across
local
authority
borders.
Make
sure
that
if
a
heat
network
crosses
borders
or
if
there
are
sort
of
complementary
schemes
going
on
nearby
you're
able
to
coordinate
across
those
rather
than
having
a
completely
different
approach
to
say,
planning
from
one
section
to
another.
D
H
H
Now,
broadly
speaking,
as
I
understand,
it,
utilities
require
these
powers
and
therefore
there's
no
real
dispute
about
having
these
in
the
bill
as
a
matter
of
principle,
I'm
just
really
wondering
if
they're
appropriately
framed.
In
particular,
I
noticed
that
scottish
gas
networks
and
your
evidence
you're
saying
that
alternative
methods
should
be
fully
explored
before
compulsory
action
is
taken.
H
Don't
dispute
that,
but
I'm
just
wondering
if
there's
something
behind
that
statement
that
you
might
wish
to
elaborate
on
and
in
terms
of
scottish
water
horizons,
you
say
that
compulsory
purchase
and
whale
of
rights
could
have
deleterious
effects
on
on
your
ability
to
develop
and
operate
assets.
So
I
wonder
if
you
could
expand
on
what
those
deleterious
ones
are
so
maybe
start
with
marcus
hunt.
E
Oh,
thank
you
yeah.
I
think
our
point
here
was
that
compulsory
purchase
is
clearly
a
fairly
or
could
be
seen
as
a
fairly
extreme
measure
and
could
effectively
disenfranchise
consumers
if
compulsory
purchase
was
involved
in
a
heat
network
scheme
and
and
that
could
be
detrimental
to
the
overall
scheme.
E
So
I
think
our
point
really
was
just
that,
if,
if
compulsory
powers
were
to
be
part
of
the
bill
that
could
have
a
you
know,
an
impact
on
in
on
consumer
engagement,
which
could
could
undermine
the
the
objectives
that
the
the
bill
was
trying
to
trying
to
achieve
that.
That
was
our
our
angle
on
this.
Really,
I
don't
think
we'd,
given
any
consideration
as
to
specifically
what
alternatives
would
you
know
may
be
available
at
this
point.
H
E
E
I
know
it
does
have
way,
leaves
some
rights
over
over
land
where
it
has
its
assets,
but
that's
part
of
the
regulated
business
in
the
non-regulated
business.
We
yeah.
That's
that's
not
something
I'm
so
familiar
with,
I'm
afraid.
I
can
certainly
come
there
with.
My
colleagues,
though,
and
come
back
for
you
know,
come
back
on
that.
D
Yes,
you're
correct,
I'm
not
part
of
the
regulated
business
either,
but
for
me
and
just
come
back
to
the
compulsory
purchase
powers.
Firstly,
that's
something
that
the
regulated
business
we
have.
We
couldn't
have
compulsory
purchase
powers,
but
it's
very
much
viewed
as
the
the
last
resort,
but
also
views
a
necessary
tool.
D
If
I
may
come
back
to
you
and
and
writing
with
more
detail
on
this,
given
that
is
the
regulated
business,
that's
responded
in
that
particular
point,
but
my
understanding
is
it's
so
that
it's
we're
clear
that
the
there's
no
precedence
if
you
like,
or
order
presidents
in
terms
of
heat
networks
potentially
impacting
on
a
regulated
business.
If,
if
we
need
to
do
something
in
a
particular
area
that
the
heat
network
would
take,
take
precedence
over
that,
so
we
need
to
make
sure
that
the
relevant
utilities
are
outlined.
H
Okay,
that's,
that's!
That's!
That's
that's
fair
enough!
I
mean
I
I'm
assuming
that
in
terms
of
electric
gas
water,
I
mean
all
these
utilities
face
the
same
issue
that
each
other
may
be
operating
underground,
mostly
and
potentially
impacting
on
others,
and
that
there
are
established
protocols
in
place
to
manage
that.
That's
my
assumption.
H
So
if
that's
not
the
case,
and
if
scottish
water
have
any
particular
concerns
in
relationship
to
water
and
they
might
because
heat
networks
will
involve
the
conveyance
of
hot
water,
it
would
be
useful
if
you
could
come
back
to
that
as
well.
Scottish
water
also
say
in
their
evidence
that
there
should
be
some
thought
given
to
how
to
secure
decommissioning
costs.
H
D
D
I
think
it
would
be
important
that
we
we
consider
such
things
as
decommissioned,
right
to
start
before
we
get
into
the
project
rather
than
someone
lock
the
door
and
walk
away.
That's
that
to
to
me
doesn't
doesn't
feel
right.
So
it's
it's
a
case
of
considering
it
today
to
say
if,
if
a
particular
project
comes
to
its
end
at
the
end
of
its
life
and
there's
been
some
debate
about
that,
what
happens
at
the
end
of
its
life,
and
that
might
be
that
there
is
the
systems
decommissioned.
D
It
might
be
that
the
incumbent
is
allowed
in
a
competitive
environment
to
continue
with
a
new
contract,
but
it
might
be
that
there's
a
new
contract
that
comes
in
place
to
take
over
that
particular
project.
So
it's
in
the
round
of
considering
right
at
the
outset.
What
happens
at
the
end
of
the
license
of
the
contract.
D
Yeah
it
it's
effectively.
I
was
slightly
different
because
it's
on
a
scottish
water
asset
I'll
take
another
example
which
is
campbelltown
where
we
are
doing
an
energy
center,
recovering
heat
from
wastewater
next
to
local
authority,
assay
and
some
of
the
infrastructures
on
the
local
authority
asset
that
particular
one.
We
we
have
built
in
those
those
different
options
so
effectively
within.
I
think
it
from
memory.
It's
12
months
of
the
conclusion
of
the
20-year
contract
that
the
two
parties
come
together
and
either
agree.
It's
the
asset
transfers
to
the
local
authority.
C
Yes,
I
thought
it
was
just
useful
to
note
that
this
is
an
issue.
That's
happened
with
electric
vehicle
charge
points
as
well
way
leaves
and
compulsion
has
been
something
that
has
been
pushed
for
quite
some
time
with
ev
charges
and
it's
looking
at
rapid
charges
trying
to
get
those
in
has
been
really
problematic
because
they
don't
have
that
power
of
compulsion.
C
Seeing
all
the
options
first
is
really
important,
but
it
was
equally
important
that,
where
there's
a
positive
net
benefit
that
could
be
apparent
from
a
heat
network,
you
are
able
to
push
forward
with
that
project.
So
it
is
a
difficult
one.
We
don't
envy
you
the
difficulty
of
having
to
get
that
balance
right,
but
getting
the
balance
right
is
absolutely
critical.
C
A
A
A
A
The
parts
of
this
instrument
relevant
to
scotland
will
be
those
where
the
uk
government
is
seeking
to
retain
direct
eu
legislation
with
effect
across
the
whole
of
the
uk,
relating
to
minor
matters.
Now
the
scottish
ministers
will
be
bringing
forward
a
separate
amending
instrument
in
respect
of
the
equivalent
scottish
regulations.