►
From YouTube: Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee - 3 October 2017
Description
1. Decision on taking business in private: The Committee will decide whether to take items 3 and 4 in private.
2. Economic Data: The Committee will take evidence from-
Dr Stuart McIntyre, Fraser of Allander Institute;
Professor David Bell, Professor of Economics, University of Stirling;
and then from—
Kenny Richmond, Economics Director, Scottish Enterprise;
Alastair Nicolson, Head of Planning and Partnerships, Highlands and Islands Enterprise;
Gemma Diamond, Senior Manager, Audit Scotland.
3. Economic Data: The Committee will consider evidence heard at today's meeting.
4. Performance of the Scottish Economy: The Committee will consider its approach to the inquiry.
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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A
Well
good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
25th
meeting
of
the
economy
of
jobs
and
Fair
Work
committee.
First
of
all,
I
ask
everyone
present
to
turn
electrical
devices
to
silent
or
turn
them
off.
If
they're
likely
to
interfere
with
the
sign
system
for
our
witnesses,
the
sign
desk
will
operate
the
speaker
so
no
need
to
press
any
buttons.
When
we
come
to
your
evidence,
I
have
apologies
from
Andy
Whiteman,
who
is
on
other
parliamentary
business
and
also
apologies
from
John
Mason
Dean
Lockhart.
A
They
will
be
arriving
during
the
session
and
give
their
apologies
for
their
lateness
item.
One
is
a
decision
by
the
committee
to
take
items
three
and
four
in
private.
Are
we
agreed
to
do
so?
Thank
you.
Now.
Our
two
witnesses
for
the
first
panel
today
are
dr.
Stewart
MacIntyre
of
the
Frazer
of
Allender
Institute
and
professor
David
Bell
of
the
University
of
Stirling,
so
welcome
to
both
of
you.
A
A
B
B
The
first
you
should
be
thinking
about
well,
if
I
had
this
information
would
I
change
some
key
decision,
some
policy
decision
that
that
hinges
on
the
knowledge
or
lack
of
knowledge
of
this
piece
of
data.
So
that's
a
sort
of
utilitarian
approach,
a
sort
of
cost-benefit
approach-
and
you
have
to
bear
in
mind
that
collecting
data
and
I
may
expand
on
this
later-
is
an
expensive
process.
The
second
argument
I
would
put
is
that
is
that
there
is
a
wider
perspective
on
data
that
you
know
a
lot
of
democratic.
B
Decision-Making
institutions
rely
on
a
well-informed
public,
as
well
as
a
well-informed
set
of
policy
makers,
so
there
is
a
strong
case
for
having
a
general
basis
of
information
which
which
most
Western
democracies
have,
and
it's
necessary
to
allow
for
public
debate
and
discussion
around
evidence,
rather
than
around
a
lack
of
knowledge,
so
there's
sort
of
immediate
approach.
Well,
what
information
do
I
need
to
to
make
decisions
about
policy,
and
then
this
more
general
approach?
B
A
B
We're
not
too
badly
served,
it
seems
to
me
there
are
areas
where,
where
information
isn't
that
great-
and
there
are
also
problems
that
the
nature
of
information
is
changing
so
relying
on
what
has
happened
in
the
past
and
the
ways
of
collecting
data
from
the
past
are
not
necessarily
going
to
last
through
the
long
term.
So,
for
example,
I
understand,
you'll
have
had
a
discussion
of
the,
for
example,
the
shrinking
sample
size
in
the
labour
force
survey,
and
this
this
sort
of
difficulty
of
collecting
data
either
from
households
or
from
businesses.
B
Well,
their
bomb
they're
being
constantly
being
bombarded
with
requests
for
information.
Why
should
they
treat
a
request
from
for
information
from
the
government
different
from
one
from
Tesco's
or
different?
What
from
one
from
Facebook?
So
there
are.
There
are
multiple
pressures
on
people
to
provide
data
and
they
become
more
and
more
selective
and-
and
that
actually
is
a
problem
in
terms
of
in
encouraging
people
to
provide
data.
Now
a
small
sample,
a
smaller
sample
size,
maybe
not
that
much
of
a
problem,
but
it
could
be,
it
could
be
because
it
might.
B
If
you
want
to
disaggregate
your
data
extensively,
it
does
become
a
problem
and,
secondly,
it
may
lead
to
biases
in
your
data.
So
you
really
really
want
that.
If
you
have
the
labor
force
that
you
are
getting
an
accurate
estimate,
see
of
the
unemployment
rate
and
if
people
are
selectively
not
responding
to
surveys,
for
example,
young
men,
who
are
often
out
when,
when
interviewers
knock
on
doors,
are
less
likely
to
respond
to
to
survey.
B
C
There
are
there's
a
good
coverage,
I
think
within
Scotland.
All
of
those
key
indicators
subject
to
some
of
the
concerns
about
sample
sizes
and
other
things,
but
I
think
it's
a
second
stage
to
this,
which
is
thinking
about
program
and
policy,
specific
data
and
rather
than
focusing
on
management
information
about
how
well
the
programs
working
in
terms
of
you
know,
consumer
feedback.
C
But
at
the
moment,
there's
I
think
a
big
focus
on.
We
brought
this
policy
and
Ward's
ado
to
GDP
and
the
reality
is
the
transmission
mechanisms
are
so
varied
between
that
intervention.
Gdp
that
actually
trying
to
track
down
the
contribution
of
a
particular
policy
to
GDP
is
quite
difficult
and
so
I
think,
inevitably
we're
half
of
that
higher
level
data,
because
we
have
to
do
things
which
are
just
data
which
are
internationally
compatible,
but
I
do
think.
There's
a
second
stage
which
more
attention
needs
to
be
given
to
which
is
actually
capturing
the
data.
C
We
need
n,
designing
programs
to
properly
evaluate
them
and
to
pick
up
just
briefly
and
David's
point
about
sample
sizes.
Absolutely,
and-
and
you
know
this
is
a
big
issue
with
deliver
for
Sophie
it's
one
of
the
reasons
why
it's
been
a
move
towards
using
more
administrative
data
to
try
to
get
round
some
of
the
problems
of
of
pure
response
rates
to
survey,
so
I
think
there's
definitely
a
move
in
that
direction.
B
There
is
a
question
of
why
you
need
the
trade
data,
which
is
an
open
question,
but
but
but
but
clearly
for
the
in
relation
to
the
question
of
democratic
debate
rather
than
question
of
well
we're
going
to
take.
You
know
a
new
policy
direction.
There
probably
is
a
case
for
enhancing
the
the
trade
data.
There's
also
I
mean
it
seems
to
me
on,
for
example,
income
data.
B
B
It
well,
there
are
issues
around
accessing
it
fully,
but
those
kinds
of
data
you
know
are
some
having
more
access
to
these
data.
I
think
would
be
of
interest
and,
of
course,
we're
moving
into
a
situation
where
Scotland
has
control
over
income
tax.
So
actually
it's
not
just
a
general
interest
question
this.
It's
a
particular
interest
to
to
the
to
the
Scottish
Government,
another
thing
again,
picking
up
on
on
Stuart's
point
but
I'm,
making
a
point
that
perhaps
hasn't
been
made
to
the
committee.
B
Now,
if
you're
looking
to
find
out
what
what
are
the,
what
is
the
effectiveness
of
early
years
intervention
policies,
then
if
you
have
information
about
children
and
their
parents
at
a
very
early
stage
in
their
life,
you
know
what
they've
been
exposed
to
in
terms
of
early
years
interventions,
and
then
you
follow
them
up
into
their
20s.
Then
you
can
track
back
to
see
if
those
early
interventions
had
the
desired
effect
or
did
not
have
the
desired
effect.
These
kinds
of
studies
are
called
longitudinal
studies.
There
are.
B
C
I
guess
a
few
points
I
mean
I
agree
with
David
with
respect
to
the
trade
data.
I.
Think
one
of
the
things
with
with
the
trade
data
is
we've
got
three
different
different
measures
that
get
at
trade
the
index
manufactures
exports,
exports,
assists
of
Scotland
and
HMRC
data,
and
they
will
tell
us
slightly
different
things,
but
probably
the
best
among
them
is
the
export
stat.
Scotland
data
know
one
of
the
the
challenges
for
that.
C
One
of
the
things
that
we
outlined
in
the
submission
that
we
made
to
the
committee
was
that
moving
towards
a
situation
with
a
Scotia
government
can
compel
forms
to
complete
this
information
on
the
same
basis
as
when
s
have
that
power
just
now.
It
would
seem
infinitely
sensible
and
may
be
one
way
of
broadening
the
coverage
of
that,
and
you
know
improving
the
sample
size,
the
same
type
and
the
quality
of
the
data,
so
it
just
was
just
at
one
point
than
that.
I
think
one
of
the
things
that's
quite
important
to
recognize.
C
The
thing
is
that
Shaun's
very
well
served
actually
with
economic
data,
both
in
terms
of
quality
but
also
timeliness
relative
to
other
parts,
the
UK
we
get
GDP
data,
roughly
100
and
well
for
the
first
time
this
year
we
had
it
in
less
than
100
days
after
the
end
of
the
quarter,
but
you
know
typically
one
hundred
and
ten
hundred
fifteen
days.
We
won't
find
out
until
December
this
year
what
happened
to
the
northeast
economy
in
2016,
so
that
relative
to
other
parts,
Yuki
we're
actually
pretty
well
safe
in
terms
of
timely
quality
indicators.
C
I
think
there
are
things
that
I
know
the
Scottish
government
are
looking
at,
which
I
think
will
drive
improvements
and
some
of
those
those
statistics.
So
government
are
now
getting
I.
Think
better
access
to
things
like
the
monthly
Business
Survey
which
they
used
to
produce
the
index
manufactured
exports,
which
may
have
spillover
effects
for
for
GDP
data,
for
instance,
but
I
think
there
is
a
program
of
continuous
improvement
both
on
the
ons
aid
and
also
the
switch
government
side
to
try
and
produce
better
quality.
C
More
timely
data
I
think
it's
worth
kind
of
stressing
that
I
guess,
just
as
from
an
academic
perspective.
One
of
the
things
that
I
would
say
is
that,
when
we're
thinking
about
some
of
these
headline
indicators,
one
of
the
things
we
need
is
a
long
enough,
consistent
time
series,
if
you're
trying
to,
for
instance
for
as
GVA
or
indeed
any
most
other
macroeconomic
indicators,
you
need
a
long
enough
time
series
Testament
that
mowed
lawn.
C
D
Mean
there
are
those
still
time
like
Sally
Anne,
for
example,
productivity
date
and
sub-regional
productivity
data,
business
research
and
development
data.
There
is
quite
a
lag
in
some
of
these
things
and
in
a
in
an
era
where
we
are
facing
shocks,
whether
it's
the
oil
price
shock
or
the
possibility
of
the
effects
of
brexit
and
the
new
powers
that
the
Scottish
Parliament
has
got,
it
seems
to
me.
Timeliness
is
actually
extremely
important.
So
I
did
wonder
whether
you'd
comment
on
that.
D
D
Now
again,
it
seems
to
me
that
that's
that's
that's
a
fairly
important
piece
of
information
upon
which
to
understand
what's
happening
to
innovation,
what's
happening
to
investment
and
what
the
kind
of
long-term
prospects
for
the
economy
are
going
to
be
so
I
wonder
whether
maybe
dr.
McIntyre,
first
and
and
professor
Bell
second
want
to
comment
on
those
two
aspects:
yeah.
C
I
think
you're
right
is
one
of
the
kind
of
obvious
things.
That's
that's
missing
from
from
the
landscapes,
a
better
understanding
of
of
investment
and
potato
that
FDI
I
won't
comment
too
much
and
the
owners
young
attractiveness
data
because
I
don't
frankly
know
how
they
put
that
together.
But
what
I
would
see
is
that
probably
the
takeaway
that
everyone
takes
from
that
is
Scotland
as
the
number
one
destination
for
FDI
within
the
UK,
which
is
fine
based
on
the
number
of
projects.
C
If
you
look
at
a
number
of
jobs,
actually
we're
not,
and
so
one
of
it's
a
good
illustration
of
reading
beyond
the
headlines,
sometimes
really
important.
If
you
look
at
number
of
jobs
for
bfdi
projects
in
Scotland,
it's
not
as
much
as
as
elsewhere.
We
don't
rank
as
highly,
but
in
terms
of
number
of
projects
we
do
so
you
know,
if
you
take
the
same
project
fade
it
into
well,
you
can
see
how
that
system
can
quite
easily
be
games.
C
B
Only
other
thing
is
I
mean
I
mean
it
is
costly
for
businesses
to
supply
data
and
quite
a
lot.
The
delays
are
are
based
around
legal
requirements
for
them
to
submit
data,
and,
if
you
think,
for
example,
even
of
self-employment
and
those
people
who
don't
aren't
under
the
P,
a
ye
system
they're
actually
have
around
fifteen
months
after
the
end
of
the
tax
year
before
they
actually
have
to
submit
their
last
cash
payment
for
income
tax,
and
while
that
persists,
you're
going
to
just
have
to
estimate
self-employment
income
over
that
over
that
period
of
time.
B
Can
matching
up
the
cost
in
terms
of
lost
opportunities
to
make
decisions,
because
data
aren't
timely
against
the
cost
to
businesses
of
making
that
data
available
more
quickly
and
I?
Think
HMRC
are
in
the
process
of
trying
to
get
individuals
to
more
or
less
continuous
the
supply
data
on
on
income
and
obviously
with
with
information,
sorry
with
IT
systems.
Now
it
may
be
more
easy
to
do
that.
It
may
not
be
necessary
to
continue
with
the
15
month.
B
D
C
Guess,
as
I
said,
it's
three
main
indicators
through
which
we
get
the
data.
What
the
Scottish
Government
sessions
then
do
is,
as
balance
from
principally
with
exports.
That's
scotland
data
with
the
supply
and
use
tables
in
the
national
accounts,
and
so
the
my
old
tables,
if
you
like,
provide
us
with
a
really
nice
sexual
coverage,
which
is
retro
and
sexual
detail
than
export
stat
Scotland.
But
it's
the
output
of
the
use
of
you,
know
various
different
sources
rather
than
you
know.
C
So,
if
you
pick
up
export
starts
going,
they
will
not
perfectly
aligned
with
with
the
with
the
aisle
data,
but
the
aisle
data
will
give
you
a
much
richer
sexual
picture
and
is
constrained
and
balances
with
the
rest
of
the
economy,
whereas,
as
we
understand
dates
what
status
column,
there's
a
survey
of
certain
forms
and
certain
sectors.
Thank
you.
E
This
like
talk
about
Xbox,
certainly
questions
and
we're
really
relation
to
that.
But
put
my
business
hat
on
that.
Looking
a
competitor
with
potato
will
exit,
we
don't
have
a
very
much
information
on
imports
and
in
a
business
sense
and
of
course,
what
agencies
here
who
have
charged
with
improving
the
Scottish
economy,
have
to
make
decisions.
We
are
going
to
support
and
you
would
think
they
would
need
that
information
on
imports,
because
you
know
in
a
business
sense.
E
B
Make
a
couple
of
points
I
think
the
vast
majority
of
imports
into
Scotland
will
originate
in
the
rest
of
the
UK
and
will
either
come
from
the
rest
of
the
UK
or
have
been
channeled
through
the
rest
of
the
UK
from
some
foreign
foreign
destination.
So
it
might
be
quite
difficult
to
track
those
another
thing.
My
second
point
is
that
a.
B
Goods
are
moving
back
and
for
across
the
border.
In
this
case
the
Scottish
border
a
lot
of
time
it
times
it
becomes
quite
difficult
to
know
exactly
how
to
how
to
track
these
so
I
just
saying
there
will
be
a
set
of
imports
that
will
be
relatively
easy
to
identify,
but
there
will
be
a
lot
for
some
businesses
trying
to
identify
what
goods
or
what
components
of
goods
are
imported
and
where
there
is
domestic
value-add,
it
will
be
quite
difficult.
I.
C
Mean
that
guess
I'd
pick
up
a
couple
of
things
on
that
one
is,
and
this
picks
up
and
richest
points
we
all
actually,
while
maybe
not
as
as
timely
as
some
other
measures
of
trade.
Actually
the
information
in
in
the
the
National
Accounts
boat,
you
kind
of
income
a
import
floors.
As
you
know,
it's
not
as
detailed
as
we
like.
It's
not
a
timeless
right,
but
it
is
there
and
if
we
think
about
what
the
alternative
routes
to
try
and
gather
that
data
might
be,
then
ok,
bricks
and
requirements.
C
Our
own
rules
of
origin
might
help
with
the
administrative
data
around
that.
But
if
you
look
at
as
David
said
where
most
of
Scott's
and
ports
compromise
here,
the
rest
of
the
UK
and
look
at
a
huge
issue
about
trying
taste
to
me,
those
flaws
or
it's
potentially,
the
rest
of
the
EU
and
the
HMRC
data
on
imports
doesn't
actually
do
a
great
job
of
capturing
that
either
I
guess.
One
thing
I
just
did
know
is
that
some
colleagues,
as
part
of
an
all
Rebecca
really
was
here
from
the
National
Institute
last
week.
C
One
of
the
projects
under
the
way,
NASA's
new
economic
statistics,
Center
of
Excellence,
led
by
one
of
my
colleagues
or
the
work
plans
led
by
her
is,
is
trying
to
use
innovative
datasets
to
try
and
understand
the
flow
of
into
regional
trade
within
the
UK.
So
things
like
looking
at
financial
transactions
to
try
and
help
us
better
understand
the
flow
of
goods
and
services
within
the
UK,
which
is
incredibly
complex
to
try
back
that.
Oh,
oh,
could.
E
I,
just
just
just
agree
what
you
get
personal
experience,
that
they
might
have
trade
lines
in
England
held
and
we
are
hosting
them
shut
tanda,
but
the
importance
of
that
particular
life-
you
have
economic
I
mean
really
economy
committing.
It
must
be
so
important
to
discourage
a
command
economy
to
understand
our
question,
the
other
thing,
as
with
all
politicians
and
there's
a
great
debate-
and
we
don't
have
you
know,
we
can't
surveyed
the
population
with
the
answers
to
quit
fearless
state
forward.
Seemingly
questions
and
relations
to
influence
and
exports
he's
probably
fundamental.
F
Thank
you,
I
was
gonna
watch
actually
about
the
kind
of
key
gaps
in
coverage
in
Scotland,
but
obviously
that's
been
touched
on
quite
a
lot
and
so,
and
you
mentioned
of
C
I,
think
dr.
McIntyre
mentioned
the
Northeast
is
on
the
regional
side.
So,
looking
at
the
regional
local
perspective,
where
can
a
key
key
gaps
are,
and
you
know
what
we
can
do
to
to
fill
those
gaps
in
terms
of
local,
local
and
regional
data.
C
One
of
the
things
I
didn't
then
touch
on
an
hour
live
and
in
response
to
Richard
talking
about
gaps
and
data
was
one
of
the
really
obvious
gaps
in
data
which
the
way
nice
to
be
fair
to
them
have
recognized
themselves
as
their
own
prices
and
regional
price
theater.
So
there
is
some
work
ongoing
just
now
with
discouraged,
government
and
and
ons,
and
partly
funded
by
HMRC,
in
part,
the
front
of
a
Scottish
government
to
improve
the
the
sample
coverage
of
the
loving
cost
in
food
survey,
which
produces
the
weights
for
the
price
and
Isuzu.
C
We've
got
more
with
a
Scottish
index,
so
that's
still
a
gap,
but
there
is
something
being
done
in
that.
I
meant
to
mention
that
earlier
I
think
one
of
the
difficulties
is
an
read
through
the
various
submissions
in
quite
including
North,
lyosha,
okay,
so
I
submitted
something
and
and
various
other
people
mentioned.
Localization
of
data
I
think
there's
a
difficulty
in
some
of
these
high-level
indicators.
C
You
know
think
about
things
like
gni
or
investment,
or
you
know
some
of
these
other
kind
of
headline
indicators
where
the
more
localized
you
become
the
easier
is
its
identify
fluctuations
with
particular
forms
and
all
one
of
the
things
that,
when
s
are
really
concerned
about
is
the
extent
to
which
you
can
basically
identify
people
and
activities
from
producing
more
localized
theater,
which
is
one
of
the
reasons
why
the
you
may
be
saying
so.
Local
data
so
I
think
there's
a
trade-off
here.
C
One
of
the
things
that
I
think
ons
do,
which
is
good
in
the
Scottish
Government
made
me
want
to
think
about,
is
the
ons
when
they
produced
the
gve
data.
Even
though
it's
not
any
one
year's
time
was
a
Scottish
government
data
do
break
this
down
to
not
two,
not
three
so
going
from
Scotland
down
to
the
nuts
to
regions
and
the
nuts
three
regions
to
get
a
lot
more.
C
B
But
but
it
is
something
that
the
suppliers
of
data
are
very
concerned
about,
because
the
last
thing
that
they
want
as
suppliers
of
data
is
that
some
farm
or
some
individual
finds
that
they
have
been
identified
and
some
information
on
them
has
been
released,
which
they
don't
want
to
have
have
released
in
relation
to
prices.
To
again
another
point
Stewart,
it
is
important
one
particular
area
in
relation
to
prices
that
I
think
is
very
important.
Is
housing
costs
housing
costs
in
general?
B
Disposable,
the
net
income
of
pensioner
families
is
above
that
of
working
age,
families
and
the
reason
for
it
is
that
housing
costs
for
pensioner
families
are
much
much
lower
than
those
for
for
working
age
families.
So,
and
it's
really
that
that
makes
a
difference
so
in
terms
of
one
element
of
prices
that
I
think
is
very
important.
Housing
costs
would
be
one
of
them.
Lastly,
in
relation
to
geographical
data,
there
is
III
mean
we
tend
to
think
of
the
way
that
economies
operate
in
relation
to
markets
rather
than
constituencies.
B
B
Clearly,
there
are
cases
that
are
arguments
why
you
would
want
to
look
at
very
detailed
data
and
you
can
with,
for
example,
DWP
date
on
benefits,
but
but
again
it's
a
little
bit
of
a
caution.
If
you're
wanting
to
use
geographically
granular
eyes
data,
you
have
to
be
careful
about
which
indicators
it
is
that
you're
thinking
about
and
whether
they
make
sense
for
that.
For
that
granularity.
F
Just
just
on
that
I
mean
I'm,
a
MSP,
the
reference
Highlands
and
Islands
officer.
We've
got
Islands
lines
Enterprise
coming
in
next,
and
so
one
of
the
questions
I
wanted
to
put
them
is
how
they
use
the
information
they
do.
Have
they
we
are,
they
are
able
to
collect
now,
I
suppose.
It
then
moves
on
to
what
information
is
there
that
it's
collected,
whether
it's
by
different
organizations
or
local
authorities
or
other
bodies
that
perhaps
isn't
feeding
into
the
national
the
ons
collection
at
the
moment?
B
B
That
tends
to
be
education,
data
care
data
and
some
some
data
associated
with
property,
probably
and
other
than
that
other
than
exploring.
You
know
novel
ways
of
addressing
data
like
using
using
Google
searches
I'm,
not
in
not
sure
that
there
are
many
other
existing
data
sets
that
you
can
interrogate
obviously
the
census.
C
Did
very
briefly
just
I
mean,
as
I
noted
earlier,
the
way
to
do
produced
more
localized,
Givi
idiots
are,
although
not
as
timely
as
with
like
the
most
recent.
We
have
a
more
that's
2015
out
of
the
EPS
days
of
yeah
and
your
population
suffer.
We
do
get
localized
information
in
labor
market.
So
if
you
ask
kind
of
high
level,
there
are
surveys
that
take
place
more
regionally,
which
I
would
expect
would
feed
into
more
localized
decision-making.
I
guess
I
can
final
point,
and
this
is
as
we
move
towards
better
using
administrative
data.
C
There
are
opportunities
to
tie
activity
more
closely
to
localities,
subject
to
acknowledging
that
a
business
that's
reporting,
one
area
may
have
enterprises
spread
across,
and
thus
we
get
into
issues
around
how
to
be
a
portion
they
have
turnover
of
their
employment
or
whatever,
across
Scotland
or
indeed
the
UK.
So
there
are
opportunities,
but
also
still
challenges
with
using
the
admin
data.
Thank
you
thank.
G
C
So
sure
I
declared
interest
as
part
of
the
YNS
is
economics,
the
sixth
center
of
excellence
project,
perhaps
M
I
think
if
you
look
back
at
Charlie
beans
review,
which
meant
2016,
I,
think
that
pushed
awareness
to
up
the
game
and
a
number
of
key
areas.
So
you
know
we
are
now
seeing
a
development
of
and
I'm
involved
in
some
of
this
moving
ons
is
regional
gve
to
be
much
more
timely,
they're
working
one
part
of
it
we're
working
another.
C
But
the
aim
is
to
try
and
improve
the
coverage
of
awareness
as
regional
GVA
data
make
it
more
timely
compliment
Scottish
government
of
doing
so
I
think
there
are
examples
there.
There
are
also
examples
where
the
Scottish
Government
HMRC,
as
I
said
L.
They
are
working
to
boost
the
survey
coverage
of
the
living
costs
and
food
services
that
we
can
start
getting
more
of
a
regionalised
price
endures
for
skal
newslinks
important,
but
in
a
sense,
ons
are
illustrating
a
willingness
to
listen
to
people,
and
indeed
one
of
the
things
that
came
out.
C
The
Charlie
Bennett
review
that
there
really
been
challenged
on
is
engaging
with
users
and
respond
to
user
needs.
Special
government
have
the
same
responsibilities
and
and
I
think
do
a
good
job
on
that,
so
part
of
the
boat,
the
onus
I
think
is
on
was
on
us
as
users,
and
also
on
the
devolved
administration's
and
the
devolved
Parliament's
to
put
a
back
pressure
or
an
S.
C
G
Know
we
are
talking
about
an
organization
that
carries
our
80
different
surveys,
issues,
1.7
million
questionnaires
to
over
two
hundred
and
ninety
thousand
businesses,
so
the
data
must
be
there
to
certain
extent
and
as
it
just
the
case,
I
mean
I.
Quite
Google
awareness
will
quite
find
plenty
of
reports
from
where
yes
or
an
England
and
Wales
data
only,
but
if
you
try
and
find
a
similar
Scotland
only
report,
you'll
find
it
very
difficult.
One.
C
Quick
point
that
I
mean
I
think
ons
produced
something
like
20%
of
National
Statistics
so
way.
Next
I'm,
not
the
dominant
producer
notion
statistics.
So
you
know
they
do
a
lot
and
I
think
increasingly,
as
the
Scottish
government
gain
access
to
the
HMRC
data,
which
they've
already
had
some
access
to
looking
at
evaluations,
avail
BTT,
for
instance,
and
also
the
the
work
that
I
was
seeing,
has
has
been
going
on
around
access
the
month
of
business
service.
I.
C
Think
that
treasure
trove,
if
you
like,
of
awareness
data,
has
been
made
available,
there
was
an
issue
I
think
where
it
wasn't
clear
access
protocols.
It
wasn't
clear
the
legality
of
that.
That's
now
been
cleared
with
the
digital
economy
act,
so
I
guess
the
question
now
is:
do
we
see
an
opening
up
of
that
treasure
trove
of
data
or
not.
B
B
For
example,
we
see
D
and
Eurostat,
give
you
much
more
opportunity
to
interrogate
quite
big
databases
and
and
construct
your
own
tables
without
too
much
difficulty
they're
trying
to
get
maybe
improve
their
the
ways
that
they
visualize
data
and
often-
and
there
have
been
great
advances
in
data
visualization
in
the
last
three
or
four
years,
and
actually
I
would
say
that
spice
is
ahead
of
them
in
terms
of
the
the
reports
that
spice
regularly
a
food
site.
As
Stewart
said,
the
awareness
is
not
a
monopoly
provider
of
of
statistics
in
in
the
UK.
B
Mean
clearly
going
back
to
the
the
price
data
which
in
turn
is
because
you
have
to
have
a
basket
if
you've
got
if
you're
going
to
have
a
price
index,
you're
gonna
have
to
have
a
basket.
Therefore,
you
need
expenditure
surveys
and
there-
and
this
is
important
now
for
dat
in
particular,
there
is
clearly
a
need
to
do
more
in
in
relation
to
understanding
how
Scottish
households
spend
their
money.
G
Adjust
my
final
point
as
Richard
marsh
and
his
written
evidence
said
staff
that
she
saw
an
air
stuff
and
overwhelm
I
focused
on
simply
getting
a
statistic.
So
relatively
little
attention
is
devoted
to
have
the
quality
and
relevance
of
the
statistics
or
that
delivery
could
be
improved
so
Kevin.
Those
concerns,
you
know,
should
Scotland
have
its
own
statistics
Authority.
Some
lots
of
the
ons
Gavin
that
Northern
Ireland
has
and
Scotland
Scottish
government
has
already
having
to
supplement
a
lot
of
the
sub
use
that
I've
carried
out
any
way
to
get
reasonable
information.
B
I'm
not
clear
at
all
that,
although
Northern
Ireland
has
its
Northern
Ireland
Statistics
Authority,
whether
the
outputs
from
that
or
any
better,
then
than
they
are
for
Great
Britain
and
secondly,
well,
yes,
Scotland
could
have
its
own
statistics
authority,
which
would
possibly
be
more
focused,
but
I
would
still
argue
that
it
is
important
to
maintain
close
comparability
with
whatever
kinds
of
data
are
being
collected
in
other
parts
of
the
UK
and
indeed
wider.
Actually
I
am
a
little
concerned
about
what
may
happen
in
relation
to
Eurostat
once
breaks.
B
It
happens
whether
we'll
continue
to
collect
data
in
the
same
way
as
it
is
being
collected
in
Europe
as
a
whole.
So,
for
example,
the
labour
force
survey
in
the
UK
is
embedded
as
part
of
the
European
labour
force
survey.
I've
been
using
the
European
labour
force
survey
over
the
last
few
days
and
and
they
asked
the
same
questions
broadly.
C
I'm
not
sure
I
recognized,
Richard,
Marx's,
Marcia's
characterization
of
ons
I
think
it
probably
was
true
at
one
point.
Many
many
moons
ago
of
ons
I
think
one
of
the
things
that's
that's
happened
more
recently
and
it
has
been
accelerated
by
by
walking
about
child
abuse.
Review
is
forcing
ons
institutionally
to
keep
change
its
culture
of
it
and
so
I.
Think.
C
If
you
look
at
the
honesty
with
which
ons
have,
for
instance,
ed
RPI
is
not
a
useful
measure
and
it's
conforming
and
to
be
honest
frankly
can't
become
one
I,
think
the
being
pretty
honest
to
be
the
quality
of
the
data,
so
I'm
not
sure
I
recognize
Richard,
Marcia's,
characterization,
I,
guess
in
this
this
thing
about
misra
in
Northern,
Ireland
I
can
see
the
kind
of
intuitive
appeal
of
well.
Let's
set
up
a
separate
squash
stats
authority.
Nature
is
not
you
know
fully
independent.
C
C
The
other
is,
we
need
to
avoid
duplication
and,
if
we're
in
this,
the
the
world
know
of
ons
HMRC
and
other
data
collection
agencies,
Yuki
white,
making
information
much
more
freely
available,
indeed,
making
the
raw
data
the
unprocessed
data
available
to
the
devolved
administration's,
then
the
need
for
the
devolved
administration's
have
their
own
status.
Authority
collecting,
essentially
the
same
data
which
wouldn't
seem
to
be
a
particularly
strong
one.
To
me.
A
All
right
before
we
plug
on
to
some
questions
from
John
Mason.
Do
you
think
the
Scottish
government
should
be
involved
in
the
production
of
data
and
statistical
information,
as
well
as
being
a
user
of
it
from
a
policy
point
of
view
just
to
come
in
on
some
of
the
last
points
that
dr.
McIntyre
was
making
well.
B
I'm
I'm
in
general,
in
favor
of
a
statistical
agencies
being
at
arm's
length
from
government
and,
in
the
sense,
the
national
record
for
Scotland
its
is
at
arm's
length.
It's
the
well.
The
UK
has
the
statistics
authority
which
oversees
the
the
ons
and
the
impartiality
of
ons.
So
whatever
organization
organizational
arrangements
are
made,
my
view
certainly
is
that
is
that
the
the
organisation
who
is
responsible
for
the
collection
of
the
publication
of
data
should
be
at
arm's
length
from
government.
C
I
mean
I,
guess
the
other
point
and
I
know
this
has
come
up
in
previous
meetings.
The
committee
and
did
we
address
in
our
our
submission
as
the
issue
of
pre-release
access
and
I
think
something
that
pushed
the
Dean
review.
Do
I-ness
have
removed
to
their
statistics,
and-
and
we
have
this
there's
a
normally
in
Scotland,
where
we
still
not
only
have
the
pre-release
access,
but
it's
actually
much
more
generous
in
terms
of
time
scale
than
at
was
previously
elsewhere.
C
H
You
and
no
John
Leeson
a
thank
you
convener
and
firstly,
my
apologies.
It's
yourself
on
the
committee.
I
was
late
this
morning
and
the
other
committee
I'm
on
was
meeting
in
Orkney
last
night
is
so
there
are
limitations,
its
travel,
but
actually
it's
I'm
very
impressed
I'm
here
about
10
o'clock
anyway,
II
I
mean
I
realized,
there's
been
discussion
already
on
gaps
and
data
and
just
to
change
that
slightly
to
access
here
to
data
and
statistics,
I'm
interested
to
know
how
US
academics
a
feel
you
you
get
access,
I
mean
clearly.
H
If
the
data
is
not
there,
you're
not
going
to
get
access,
but
do
you
also
have
the
problem
that
sometimes
you
believe
the
data
is
there
and
you're
not
allowed
to
see
it?
We
did
the
suggestion
from
one
witness
before
that
when
they
asked
ons
for
information,
they
generally
got
a
positive
response,
but
when
they
asked
HMRC
for
information,
they
didn't
get
such
a
positive
response.
So
I
just
wondered
if
you
identified
with
that
a
so.
B
B
The
HMRC
is
covered
by
different
legislation
from
ons
data,
so
in
general,
the
kinds
of
data
that
I
use
are
accessible
by
bona
fide
II
economists.
Sorry,
academics
from
from
around
the
world
through
the
data
of
the
UK
data
site,
which
probably
is
the
best
in
the
world
for
making
raw
data
available,
suitably
anonymized
to
interested
interested
researchers.
B
So
that
covers
stuff.
Like
the
family
resources
survey,
the
labour
force
survey,
it
gets
more
tricky
when
you
want
to
access
data
like
ash
the
wages
data.
So
they're
used
you.
You
move
up
a
level
in
terms
of
access.
You
have
to
go
into
secure
access,
which
means
that
you
have
to
effectively
have
your
work
checked
in
terms
of
whether
it's
it's
being
whether
it
is
revealing
any
in
information
about
individuals.
H
B
There
was
an
initiative
which,
which
basically
was
disastrous,
which
involved
the
sharing
of
GP
data
without
individual
consent.
Individuals
find
out
about
it
and
the
whole
scheme
collapsed
under
their
objections.
So
now
it
is
very
difficult
to
a
much
more
difficult
to
access
health
data
in
England
than
is
the
case
in
Scotland.
So
there
have
to
be
safeguards,
maybe
I
think
they're
a
bit
over
the
top,
but
but
I
understand
why
they're
there,
okay.
C
So
making
sure
that
you're
not
trying
to
to
take
information
out
through
which
an
individual
may
be
identified.
For
instance,
I,
think,
that's
all
perfectly
sensible,
unproportional
I
think
one
of
the
the
I
think
that
academics
are
getting
better
at
accessing
these
data
and
academics
are
getting
better
at
acknowledging.
They
have
to
go
through
training
to
access.
These
data
and
I
agree
with
David
that
the
UK
data
service
say
is
great,
for
researchers
can
access
a
range
of
surveys,
and
indeed
for
researchers
to
put
a
little
in
survey.
C
Data
up,
but
I
think
that
the
only
roadblock
in
the
data
access
now
frankly
as
a
resource
for
the
analysts
at
the
other
side
of
the
of
the
desk.
If
you
like
to
get
the
data
in
form,
you
can
access
it
because
they've
got
all
the
data
there
and
there
may
be
d'etre
of
memes
or
addresses
or
whatever
and
then
put
that
or
in
a
safe
haven
for
you
to
access
that
the
roadblock
I
think
for
researchers
now
is
more
about
the
resources
to
those
analysts.
B
B
H
Thanks
so
much
and
the
other
point
I
asking
is
a
on
a
separate
issue:
really
I
mean
one,
since
there
are
gaps
in
data
and
statistics,
I
think
we
accept
that,
but
I
mean
one
of
the
aims,
presumably
is
to
track
progress
in
relation
to
the
Scottish
Government's
economic
strategy
or
the
national
performance
framework.
So
you
know
once
it's
slightly
flawed
last
year
and
it's
slightly
flawed
this
year
as
long
as
you're
comparing
like
with
like.
Maybe
that
doesn't
matter
or
is
that
is
that
too
simplistic
away
to
look
at
it?.
B
I
think
the
part
of
the
issue
that
I
might
have
with
the
performance
framework
is
that
it's
difficult
to
know
whether
government
really
has
a
handle
that
it
can
turn
which
will
cause
one
of
these
indicators
to
change
for
the
better
or
indeed
for
the
worse.
So
you
know
you
you,
you
choose
some
measure
of
productivity,
for
example,
then
what
is
it
a?
How
far
can
government
policy
affect
the
change
in
productivity
that
may
or
may
not
have
occurred?
B
It
may
be
something
that
that
is
just
a
function
of
the
economic
cycle
that
might
be
unwind
at
some
other
point
in
time.
So
government
might
look
to
take
credit
for
it
or
it
might
try
to
try
to
avoid
any
discussion
of
if
that's
gone
in
the
wrong
way,
but
it
maybe
wasn't
its
fault
in
the
first
place.
So.
H
B
But
there's
a
you
know
that
there
are
lots
of
debates
and
discussions
and
the
holding
at
the
Bank
of
England
has
has
been
looking
at
this
recently.
That
there's
no
clear
sets
of
interventions
that
people
know
of
that
will
immediately
result
and
I
say
immediately,
because
you
may
have
interventions
that
only
have
an
effect
after
five
years
or
ten
years.
B
C
Much
more
important
thing
is:
if
we
don't
know
what
might
work,
we
don't
know
what
does
work.
We
may
have
some
ideas,
what
might
work
and
thus
actually
within
each
of
these
policy
initiatives
or
or
pilots
or
whatever
we
embed
proper,
robust
program
and
policy
evaluations
to
us
that
we
can
get
to
the
side
of
it
and
see.
Well,
here's
the
impacts
of
this
know.
You
know,
then
aggregating
that
up
to
an
economy,
wide
impacts
might
become
a
bit
difficult,
but
at
least
we
can
see.
I
B
I
You
very
much
and
can
I
move
to
public
finance.
Now
something
I
know
you've
taken
an
interest
in
given
our
new
powers.
Do
you
think
we
have
enough
information
on
the
overall
financial
position
of
the
public
sector?
In
other
words,
do
you
see
a
value
in
in
whole,
government
accounts
in
assets
and
liabilities.
Dean
sets
out
quite
clearly
I.
B
Clearly
you
you
ain't.
There
is
a
debate
around
contingent
liabilities
like
how
do
you
value
pensions,
pension
liabilities
in
the
future
in
you,
and
these
may
change
a
lot
with
a
small
change
in
the
interest
rate,
so
you
have
to
treat
them
with
some
a
caution,
but
nevertheless,
if
you're
looking
to
the
medium
to
long
term
financial
position
of
the
government,
there
are
some
things
which
look
to
be
very
high
probability
associated
with
the
aging
population,
for
example,
that
maybe
we
need
to
be
a
bit
more
radical
in
our
thinking.
B
C
Think
we
meet
much
the
same
point
in
our
submission
and
indeed
I
think
builds
on
some
of
that.
Some
of
the
concerns
are
an
aging
building
a
budget
report
a
few
weeks
ago,
which
is
just
emphasizing
this
point.
No
I
I.
Think
there's
you
know
if
you
look
at
the
UK
government
accounts,
all
the
Scottish
government
bodies
and
non-departmental
bodies
and
everything
else
are
in
there.
So
the
informations
there,
it's
just
a
question
of
how
we
perhaps
we
parcel
informations,
already
yeah,
okay,.
J
You
very
much
and
we've
heard
evidence
last
week,
but
in
particular
about
definition
around
inclusive
gross
and
professor
Bell,
you
mentioned
inequality,
did
we
have
the
ability
to
measure
inclusive
growth
and
in
the
quality
of
the
data
that
we
currently
have?
Are
any
tweaks
that
giving
me
to
the
currently
available
data?
For
example,
we've
had
issues
with
some
of
our
investigations
around
the
gender
pay
gap
and
data's
out
there,
but
it's
not
desegregated
into
gender,
and
that's
just
one
example.
That's
come
up
recently.
B
B
Is
there
a
nothing?
Well
again,
you
know
for
granularity,
you
might.
You
would
actually
get
quite
a
good
gas
at
the
differences
by
gender.
From
these
two
surveys
within
Scotland,
you
wouldn't
get
a
guess
at
all
of
differences
between
different
ethnicities,
because
the
scholarship,
although
there's
an
actually
the
understanding
society,
has
a
boost
for
for
non-white.
Population
is
not
going
to
be
enough
to
to
give
you
a
guess
at
that
for
for
Scot
Scotland.
B
So
the
other
thing
is
in
terms
of
inequalities.
We
do
know
a
lot
about
income
inequalities.
We
know
not
very
much
about
wealth
inequalities,
that's
something
I'm
trying
to
address
with
my
aging
survey,
so
the
the
main
source
for
that
in
England
is
the
English
language
in
your
survey
of
Aging
or
the
wealth
and
assets
survey,
button,
Scotland,
again
wealth
and
assets.
Surveys,
the
the
the
the
sample
size.
C
I
think
there's
a
range
of
data.
There
I
think,
as
always,
with
these
surveys
a
difficulty
once
you
start
trying
to
get
down
to
particular
grips-
and
you
know
Oxfam
that
something
a
few
years
ago
which
wanted
focusing
in
particular
on
less
Herot
groups,
I.
Think
if
you,
if
you
start
being
doing
that
line
within
the
existing
survey
data,
it
becomes
quite
difficult
because
the
number
of
these,
almost
by
definition
of
the
less
hair
groups,
they're
less
likely
to
be
the
sample
and
if
they
are
they're
going
to
be
in
the
distinct
minority.
C
B
You
see,
administrative
data
are
limited
compared
with
survey
data
because
they're
collected
for
administrative
purposes,
and
so
therefore
they
don't
necessarily
have
all
the
characteristics
of
the
individuals
that
you
might
want
to
do.
The
kinds
of
analysis
by
some
kind
of
subgroup
that
you
want.
So,
for
example,
the
HMRC
data
will
have
gender,
certainly
it
will,
but
it
may
not
have
a
ethnicity
because
you
don't
have
to
fill
in
your
ethnicity
when
you
do
your
your
your
self-assessment
for
I.
B
C
The
other
thing
is-
and
this
has
been
talked
about
for
a
while
and
I
think
it
is
finally
happening-
is
taking
some
of
these
bigger
administrative
data
sets
and
linking
them
together.
So
you
linked
together,
DWP
with
HMRC,
and
you
know,
certainly
with
the
colleagues
we've
been.
We've
been
talking
about
this,
because
if
somebody
disappears
from
the
HMRC
data,
the
mirror
will
show
up
in
the
DWP
data
and
if
they
leave
the
DWP
data,
they
may
well
show
up
in
HMRC
data.
C
B
For
example,
the
benefit
the
benefits
of
linkage.
Our
survey
is
an
hour-and-a-half
survey
of
people,
so
we
collect
loads
of
information
on
their
characteristics,
so
we
can
assign
them
to
some
subgroup.
We
then
link
that
to
their
health
data,
and
then
we
can
see
what
kinds
of
people
are
frequently
in
hospital.
Often
go
to.
The
dentist
have
care
packages
these
these
kinds
of
things,
so
you
the
this,
is
the
great
benefit
of
linkage
of
a
survey
to
administrative
data.
B
B
B
C
K
C
The
new
NS
have
a
have
a
paper
in
July
which
was
trying
to
scope
out
the
possibility
of
pooling,
distinguishing
and
total
productivity,
routine
improvements
and
Leah
Proctor
the
capital,
productivity
and
yeah.
They
multi-factor
productivity,
and
you
know
one
of
John
Van
Ryn
ins.
Things
is
that
well
we
can
measure
Lea
productivity,
some
extent.
We
can
measure
capital
productivity,
then
there's
another
component
productivity.
C
What
is
that
and
how
to
impact
on
that
and
vanveen
and
stuff,
as
David
said,
is,
is
looking
at
management
practice
as
in
other
form
of
technology
and
so
trying
to
help
us
better
understand,
and
then
you
know
we
can.
We
can
estimate
that
that
increase
in
productivity,
not
due
to
improvements
in
labor
productivity
of
capital,
productivity,
that
residual
soil
residual
but
then
understand
what's
with
then
focuses
I,
guess
modern
on
some
of
these
uniform
level
studies,
where
they're
trying
to
understand
why
some
forms
are
more
productive
than
others.
K
C
The
OECD's
measure,
but
what
I
would
say
as
the
Dewey
CD
from
experience,
are
very
good
at
producing
methodology
hips
alongside
that,
so
sewing
happy
to
look
at
if
it
would
benefit
the
committee
to
do
that,
but
I
would
expect
that
they
will
have
made
that
information
available.
Okay,
thanks
very
much
all.
C
This
goes
back
to
exactly
what
I
said
before
the
digital
economy
act
and
then
cement
someplace,
no
data
access
and
makes
it
absolutely
clear
to
HMRC
that
legally
they
can
share
a
lot
of
the
administrative
data
with
other
government
departments
and
also
the
devolved
administration.
So
in
terms
of
updated
access,
I
think
the
digital
economy
moves
us
well
ahead.
E
Okay,
okay
can
I
just
call
you
from
the
Royal
statistical,
their
society
and
their
point
over
the
de
loire
pervade
devolved
administration's
with
direct
access
to
these
data
sources,
but
they
should
be
able
to
access
then,
through
the
ons
doing
you
think
there
should
be
a
bit
more.
Did
you
think
it's
a
weakness
and
not
that
bite
of
where
we
are
at
present
time,
rather
than
that
it
devolved
administration
having
the
right
to
so
change
it
to
Shou
rather
than
shoot
orgy?
What's
your
own
experience,
does
it
make
any
difference?
E
C
Not
sure
this
isn't
something
of
a
difference
with
a
distinction
without
much
of
a
difference
with
respect
to
poor.
The
RSS
were
mentioning
I
think
this
is
getting
at
the
point
that
HMRC
will
prepare
the
data.
The
data
will
be
cleaned,
the
data
will
be,
you
know,
assessed
as
being
a
complete
data
set,
and
then
it
will
be
poured
into
see
the
HMRC's
microcell
ARB
that
will
give
access
to
government
departments
or
the
way
nasa's
vml
and
that's
a
data
product.