►
From YouTube: Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee - 7 November 2017
Description
1. Declaration of interests: Alex Neil will be invited to declare any relevant interests.
2. Decision on taking business in private: The Committee will decide whether to take items 4 and 5 in private.
3. Economic Data: The Committee will take evidence from-
Sir Charles Bean, Budget Responsibility Committee, Office for Budget Responsibility;
Ed Humpherson, Director General for Regulation, UK Statistics Authority;
Jonathan Athow, Deputy National Statistician and Director General for Economic Statistics, Office for National Statistics.
4. Economic Data: The Committee will consider evidence heard at today's meeting.
5. Work programme: The Committee will consider its work programme.
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
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A
Well
good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
20th
meeting
of
the
economy,
jobs
and
Fair
Work
committee
I
would
ask
everyone
present
to
turn
electrical
devices
to
silence
as
not
to
interfere
with
proceedings.
I
have
apologies
from
Gil
Patterson
committee
member
and
I
would
like
to
welcome
Alec
Neil,
who
is
his
substitute
for
Gordon
MacDonald
and
will
be
with
us
for
the
next
few
sessions.
So
I
would
invite
Alec
Neil
to
make
a
declaration
of
any
relevant
interests.
B
A
You
very
much
decision
item
two
sorry
item
two
is
a
decision
by
the
committee
to
take
items
four
and
five
and
private.
Are
we
agreed
on
that?
Yes,
thank
you.
Now
we
turn
to
our
economic
data
inquiry
and
I
would
like
to
welcome
our
witnesses.
Today
we
have
today
Sir
Charles
bean,
but
of
a
member
of
the
Budget
Responsibility
committee,
I,
think
in
the
office
for
Budget
Responsibility,
EDM
person,
who's,
director-general
for
regulation
of
the
UK
Statistics
Authority
and
Jonathan
athough,
who's,
deputy
national
statistician
and
director-general
for
economic
statistics
in
the
Office
for
National
Statistics.
C
Well,
then,
I'm
actually
going
to
throw
the
ball
for
Johnathan
on
this.
For
quite
a
good
reason,
because
in
my
review,
which
came
out
well
over
a
year
ago
now
it
flagged
that
one
of
the
areas
where
more
work
was
needed
was
regional
statistics
in
general.
But
it
recognized
the
problems
of
doing
that
and
in
particular,
if
you
want
lots
of
detailed
regional
statistics,
you
obviously
need
lots
of
information
and
the
finer
the
degree
of
disaggregation
that
you
want
to
look
at
the
more
information
you
have
to
collect.
C
So
I
had
basically
seen
that
really
the
only
way
of
unlocking
this
was
access
to
administrative
data,
which,
of
course,
the
digital
economy.
Bill
has
facilitated,
but
I
do
know
that
the
Office
for
National
Statistics
has
actually
been
moving
forward
in
plugging
some
of
the
gaps
that
I
had
flagged
in
my
review.
So
it's
probably
better
for
Jonathan
to
talk
about
the
work
that
they're
actually
doing
at
the
moment
and
things
that
they
have
planned
in
terms
of
the
regional
statistical
state
not
see
particularly
Scotland.
C
D
I
might
start
by
sort
of
just
saying
actually
we're
on
a
quite
a
journey
here.
I
think.
The
way
in
which
devolution
is
changing
in
Scotland
has
changed,
needs
and
user
needs
of
sort
where
we
start
from.
In
terms
of
thinking
about
about
our
statistics
and
following
Sir
Charles's
review,
we
have
now
put
an
added
impetus
on
to
making
certain
there
is
additional
geographical
detail
available,
and
that
obviously
applies
to
Scotland
but
also
applies
to
Wales
Northern
Ireland
and
the
English
regions
as
well.
D
So
it
is
something
where
we
are
changing,
where
we've
got
a
few
things,
we
have
done
differently
recently,
so
we
published
public
finance
statistics
for
all
the
countries
and
regions
of
the
of
the
UK
building,
actually
on
some
work
done
in
the
Scottish
Government
through
jurors,
so
things
can
be
done.
Things
are
moving
next
month.
We
plan
to
publish
something
called
a
balanced
measure
of
gross
value
added,
so
aggressive
value
added
is
very,
is
akin
to
GDP.
D
Previously
we
have
published
these
statistics
for
Scotland,
but
there's
actually
been
two
different
measures
using
the
income
and
the
production
approach.
We're
actually
gonna
produce
a
single
measure
to
give
users
in
Scotland
a
much
clearer
picture
of
economic
activity
in
in
Scotland.
So
there
are,
there
are
lots
of
plans
in
place
to
improve
statistics,
but
really
that
comes
from
user
need
and
that
will
come
from
what
the
Scottish
government
once
it
also
come
from
what
other
users
in
Scotland
are
looking
for.
So
we
are
thinking
quite
widely
about
this.
D
D
That's
always
been
something
we've
thought
has
been
quite
difficult
because
of
the
way
prices
are
collected
to
inform
inflation
statistics,
but
that's
exactly
something
we're
looking
forward
to
think
about
whether
we
can
provide
that
sort
of
information,
because
that's
been
a
gap
that
there
has
been
in
the
past,
so
I
think
the
answer
here
is:
we
want
to
be
as
responsive
as
we
can
be
to
user
needs.
There
are
real
challenges,
as
the
Charles
said.
D
In
some
cases,
the
way
samples
are
collected
for
statistical
purposes,
the
surveys
that
are
collected
means
it's
very
difficult
to
go
to
very
fine
levels
of
geography,
and
often
people
want
not
just
Scotland,
but
you
know
particular
geographies
within
within
Scotland.
Obviously
there
are
city
deals
now
emerging
in
in
Scotland,
so
people
want
to
understand
what's
going
on
in
their
local
area,
but
that's
always
going
to
be
very
difficult
when
you're
collecting
data
from
surveys.
So
one
of
the
things
we
are
now
trying
to
do
is
unlock
the
potential
of
administrative
data.
D
So
one
of
our
first
date
sets
is
to
use
v80
data
from
Revenue
&
Customs.
That
allows
us
to
understand.
What's
going
on
economic
activity
in
the
particular
area
that
should
allow
us
to
have
a
better
understanding
of
what's
going
on,
we've
we're
only
starting
to
explore
that,
but
actually
it's
that
data
that
underpins
our
bounced
gross
value
added
statistics
that
I
talked
about
earlier.
So
this
is
involving
area.
There
are
some
it.
There
have
been
some
gaps
but
we're
trying
to
fill
them.
D
But,
as
I
said,
come
back
to
what
I
was
saying
in
the
beginning.
Really
we
are
guided
by
user
need
and
actually,
if
this
committee
comes
out
with
particular
areas
or
particular
gaps
that
it's
heard
from
from
users,
that
will
be
very
useful
to
us
in
informing
our
work
program
and
our
conversations
with
the
Scottish
government
about
how
we
work
together
to
make
certain
there
are
good
economic
statistics
for
Scotland.
E
My
perspective
is
of
the
person
who
heads
up
the
office
for
Statistics
regulation
and
as
such,
what
we
do
is
we
oversee
statistics
produced
in
any
part
of
the
United
Kingdom,
certainly
produced
by
Jonathan
and
his
team's
in
ons,
but
also
the
Scottish
Government
Whitehall
departments,
the
Welsh
government
government,
the
Northern
Ireland
Administration,
and
that
gives
us
a
really
good
capacity.
I
think
to
look
across
the
whole
provision
of
Statistics
in
the
round
and
an
informer
form,
an
overview
and
I.
E
Think
from
that
perspective,
I'd
say
that
Scottish
economic
statistics
produced
by
the
Scottish
government
were
in
a
good
place
in
two
senses.
Firstly,
it
seems
to
me
that
there
is
a
very
clear
framework
for
the
development
of
the
statistics
and
the
production
of
those
statistics,
starting
with
national
accounts,
with
some
good
sectoral
information
on
different
sectors
of
the
Scottish
economy
and
with
some
good
labour
market
information
as
well
so
I
think
there's
a
clear
framework.
E
One
of
the
things
about
a
clear
framework
is
that
it
really
helps
you
much
more
clearly
see
where
the
gaps
are.
It's
harder
to
see
where
the
gaps
are.
If
you
get
a
kind
of
a
fairly
random
collection
of
data
releases
with
a
clear
framework,
you
can
see
where
something
is
strong,
I'm
weaker
and
there
are
some
weaknesses.
E
There
are
clearly
some
weaknesses
which
brings
me
on
to
my
second
point
about
why
I
think
the
Scottish
government
is
in
a
relatively
good
place,
which
is
there
is
both
an
appetite
for
improvement
for
addressing
the
gaps
and
also
a
track
record
of
having
done
so
and
I.
Think
you
heard
a
lot
from
your
witnesses
in
previous
sessions
about
the
improvements
that
have
been
made
over
time
to
Scottish
economic
statistics.
Those
gaps
are
significant,
Johnathan
has
mentioned
prices
and
those
those
data
and
until
recently,
haven't
been
available
in
Scotland.
E
There's,
questions
about
trade,
information
exports
and
particularly
imports
and
there's,
of
course,
also
questions
about
the
timeliness
of
regional
economic
statistics.
I
think
that
one
set
of
evidence
that
you
received
really
stood
out
for
me,
though,
which
was
the
Scottish
fiscal
Commission
talking
about
labor
market
information,
income
and
earnings,
and
how
more
timely
and
more
comprehensive
information
on
income
and
earnings
would
really
help
them
forecasting
the
economy
in
forecasting
income
tax
receipts,
and
that
strikes
me
as
being
a
really
very
salient
issue.
E
F
You
and
John
Mason,
hey
thanks,
convener
and
I,
mean
that
I
think
you
touched
on
a
lot
of
issues
between
you
there
but
I
think
when
we're
going
to
try
and
explore
a
little
bit
further
I
mean
the
digital
economy.
Act
has
been
mentioned
and
the
fact
I
think
mr.
Arthur,
especially
that
we're
moving
towards
a
bit
more
administrative
data
rather
than
surveys,
I
mean.
How
did
you
see
they
can
a
UK
picture
at
the
moment,
I
mean
it's
not
as
that
I
kind
of
the
digital
economy.
F
Act
is
that
gonna
fix
everything
or
other
other
things
we're
needing
to
move
on,
and
how
does
the
UK
compare?
Would
you
see
to
other
countries
because
we
hear
a
lot
of
good
stuff,
but
it
tends
to
be
often
about
small
countries
like
Estonia
and
Denmark
and
the
Netherlands,
and
maybe
that's
just
not
possible
at
UK
level,
so
I'm
interested
to
see
where
you
all
see
that
they're
kind
of
UK's
going
on
this
well.
C
If
I
could
just
start
on
that,
it's
not
just
small
countries
that
have
made
effective
use
of
administered
day.
So
Canada
who
regard
is
one
the
best
national
statistical
institutes.
They
rely
very
heavily
on
administrative
data,
basically
whenever
they
want
to
run
a
new
survey
or
something
they
have
to
make
the
case
that
they
can't
get
the
information
from
existing
data
sources,
and
it's
very
notable
that
the
Canadian
Statistical
Authority
is
a
much
more
innovative,
agile
institution.
C
As
a
result,
you
know
it's
regarded
as
one
of
the
best
employers
in
Canada,
so
I'm
the
best
places
for
economists
to
work.
Things
like
that,
so
I
know
think
you
should
think
of
administrative
data
as
being
a
just
to
preserve
of
small
countries
and
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
potential
there.
But
equally
it's
not
going
to
solve
everything
and
the
key
thing,
of
course,
about
administrative
data
and
private
sector.
Big
data
as
well
is
that
the
information
is
not
generally
collected
with
statistical
use
in
mind.
C
It's
collected
as
a
by-product
of
collecting
taxes,
or
if
it's
in
the
private
sector,
supermarkets,
pricing,
their
products
and
registering
what's
being
sold
and
so
forth,
and
then
it's
aggression
of
statisticians
leaving
off
that,
so
that
you
need
to
use
judgment
and
expertise
in
the
way
that
information
is
exploit
it
and
it
needs
to
be
used
often
with
surveys
where
you
need
surveys
to
fill
gaps
and
so
forth.
So
I
certainly
took
the
buna.
My
review
that,
while
the
unlocking
administrative
data
was
certainly
helpful
and
an
important
step
forward,
it's
not
a
silver
bullet.
C
That's
going
to
solve
all
the
UK
or
Scotland's
statistical
problems.
Just
as
far
as
the
act
itself
goes,
I
should
say
it
actually
has
ended
up
going
further
than
I
thought
was,
was
possible.
I
mean
in
my
review.
I
focused,
particularly
on
facilitating
ons
access
to
administrative
data
held
elsewhere
in
government,
most
obviously
the
tax
authorities,
but
it's
not
solely
the
tax
authorities,
because
obviously,
lots
of
other
departments
have
similar
information
that
maybe
may
be
potentially
of
use
and
I
didn't
really
wait
too
much
into
the
access
to
private
sector
data
question.
C
D
I
think
underpinning
your
question
was,
you
know,
were
we
were
we
keeping
up
with
leading
practice
and
I
think
on
administer
of
Jason?
We
we
weren't
in
the
first
group
of
countries
who
are
using
administrative
data,
but
now
we
have
the
digital
economy
act
and
we
were
able
to
learn
I.
Think
from
how
other
countries
had
done
it.
Other
countries
had
focused,
for
example,
primarily
on
government
held
data.
We
could
think
actually
there
is
advantage
and
also
having
powers
over
private
sector
data.
D
Some
of
you
may
have
seen
it
was
reported
in
some
of
the
newspapers.
This
morning,
we've
been
looking
at
mobile
phone
data
to
understand
commuting
patterns.
How
people
you
know
where
they
travel
to
work
from
so
we
know,
mobile
phone
data
could
be
a
very
rich
source
of
understanding
of
what's
going
on
in
the
economy
as
well.
So
we
know
the
the
private
sector
is
also
is
also
very
important.
D
We've
also
been
able
to
learn
from
other
countries
that
have
gone
first
in
terms
of
the
techniques
they've
used
so
from
December
this
year,
we'll
be
using
v80
data
to
put
together
our
national
accounts
to
put
together
on
measures
of
GDP.
We've
worked
very
closely
with
the
Dutch
Statistical
Office,
because
they've
done
that
for
a
number
of
years
we
were
able
to
learn
how
they
used
it,
because
one
of
the
points
Sir
Charles
makes
I
think
it's
very
relevant.
Is
this
data
isn't
primarily
for
statistical
purposes,
and
you
need
to
invest
time
in
understanding
it.
D
You
might
have
to
use
different
methods,
different
different
statistical
techniques,
to
understand
it.
You
might
find
it
fits
some
parts
of
the
economy
very
well.
So
we
found
some
areas,
some
sectors
of
the
economy
where
the
v80
data
describes
what's
going
on
very
well
in
other
areas
where
it
doesn't
and
that's
sometimes
understanding
the
way
it's
collected.
So
the
80
data
for
some
companies
they
will
send
in
one
return
covering
a
large
number
of
businesses.
D
So
you
have
to
understand
the
nature
of
how
that
data
is
submitted,
whether
you
want
to
apportion
it
or
whether
actually
that's
an
area
where
you
still
want
to
use
a
survey,
it
may
be
for
some
of
those
very
complex
companies.
You
may
want
to
ask
them
a
survey
because
actually
it's
it's
better
than
the
better
than
the
data,
sorry
better
than
the
administrative
data,
so.
F
If
I
can
just
press
your
nut,
particular
line,
I
mean,
like
sort
of
the
Scottish
government,
doesn't
have
access
to
largely
to
VAT
returns
and
so
on,
and
even
if
they
did,
it
would
be
possibly
at
a
UK
level.
So
is
there
something
we
can
learn
or
something
we
can
take
forward?
Should
we
look
to
you
to
kind
of
get
a
bit
more
detail,
or
should
we
be
doing
something
ourselves?
What.
D
I
I
think
you
we
want
to
use
that
data
to
understand
so,
industry
breakdown
and
geographical
back
break
breakdown
and
for
some
companies
that
will
work
very
well
because
some
companies,
you
know,
if
you
are
all
your
activity,
is
based
within
a
particular
particular
area.
You
know
the
v80
data
will
work
very,
very
well
well.
D
Well,
for
that,
so
it's
just
about
understanding
where
it
works
and
where
it
doesn't
that's
something
where
you
know
we
will
want
to
talk
to
the
Scottish
government
to
understand
what
then,
what
the
Scottish
government
data
needs
are,
and
then
we
can
work
through.
How
do
we?
How
do
we
meet
those
needs?
Is
it
administrative
data?
Is
it
survey
data?
D
Is
it
a
blend
blend
of
the
two,
and
how
do
we
go
about
doing
that
and
one
of
the
things
we
want
to
start
doing
as
we
go
forward,
is
also
they're,
making
the
underlying
data
available.
So
one
of
the
I
think
revolutions
in
statistics,
probably
in
the
last
10
or
20
years,
is
that
more
of
the
underlying
data
is
now
made
available
for
for
anybody,
whether
that's
an
academic
research
or
a
government
researcher
to
access
so
OH&S
data.
D
Although
that's
mainly
survey
data
at
the
moment
is
available
to
researchers
to
interrogate,
and
you
know
we
would
want
to
make
certain
as
we
get
these
rich
data
sources.
Those
those
data
sources
are
also
available
for
people
to
then
do
their
own
analysis,
because
we
can't
cover
every
particular
cut
of
the
data
that
people
people
people
want.
H
Lerner
thanks
convener
we've
received
quite
a
lot
of
evidence,
both
oral
and
written
about
the
pool
response
rate
to
key
surveys
that
are
issued
by
the
Scottish
Government
and
so
there's
a
global
connection.
Survey
which
looks
at
export
data,
especially
where
the
the
response
rate
is
pretty
low.
So
I
suppose.
H
One
things
that
we're
examining
is
what
can
be
done
about
this
and
is
the
solution
to
give
to
the
Scottish
government
the
kind
of
powers
that
ONS
has
got,
for
example,
or
the
Northern
Ireland
statistical
agency,
has
got
to
compel
businesses,
for
example,
to
respond
to
surveys.
Oh
and
I
wonder
whether
you've
got
a
view
on
that.
D
Start
on
that
I
mean
with
with
business
surveys.
We
have
a
under
the
statistics
and
registration,
Services
Act.
We
have
the
power
to
compel
businesses
and,
in
general
response
rates
from
businesses,
give
it
given
that,
given
that
basis,
quite
quite
quite
strong,
we
obviously
in
some
cases
or
some
of
our
surveys-
have
a
particular
Scottish.
What
we
call
a
boost
to
the
sample
and,
of
course
we
can
use
our
powers
there
to
make
certain
that
that
boost
that
the
Scottish
government
wants
is
corrected
effectively.
D
D
We
know
that
businesses
would
rather
be
getting
on
running
their
own
business
rather
than
fitting
in
in
forms
for
us.
But
that's
where,
for
example,
using
administrative
data
could
be
very,
very
helpful
that
we
can
reduce
the
burdens
there
I
think
for
individuals.
There
is
a
real
challenge
about
about
response
rates.
We
know
fewer
and
fewer
people
pick
up
their
landline
telephones
and
when
they
do
often
you
know,
we
all
know
whether
it's
somebody
trying
to
talk
to
us
about
PPI
or
trying
to
sell
us
something
else.
D
What
we
are
trying
to
do
is
get
under
the
surface
of
that
are
the
ways
we
can
shorten
the
form's
shorten
the
questions
we
ask
because
sometimes
it's
the
the
fact
you
have
to
be
on
the
phone
for
30
minutes
or
so
might
put
people
off.
Are
there
behavioral
insights?
We
can
use
nudge
techniques
we
can.
We
can
use
are
the
ways
we
could
provide
incentives
for
people
to
respond.
So
we
are
trying
a
mix
of
those
those
different
different
things,
but
it
is
a
challenging
environment
and
I.
D
Think
many
countries
around
the
world
are
finding
people
are
less
willing
to
to
part
it
participate
again.
That's
something.
Where
can
we
use
administrative
data
to
take
some
of
the
questions
out,
so
you
know
we
will
ask
people
what
their
income
is,
but
actually,
if
you're
an
employee
through
the
PA
ye
system,
you
will
that
information
should
should
be
available
so
other
ways
we
can
use
it.
Administrative
data
there
to
reduce
the
burdens
and
prop
up
response
rates,
but
it
is
a
real
challenge.
E
Specific
points
about
Global,
Connections
survey,
I
won't
give
a
view
on
the
general
power
to
compel
but
I.
Think.
If
you
look
at
the
global
connection,
survey
you're
you're
right
that
the
response
rate
is
relatively
low,
I
think
it's
something
like
1,700
responses
out
of
5,500
survey
sent
out
something
of
that
order.
I
think
the
question
is,
would
you
want
to
compel?
If
you
had
the
power
and
the
question
there
is
balancing
the
the
cost,
which
would
be
the
burden,
the
respondent
burden,
with
the
benefit
and
the
benefit
you'd
have
to
think
about.
E
Well,
how
much
more
information
would
you
get
from
a
more
complete
survey?
And
there
are?
There
are
statistical
approaches
to
saying
well,
what's
going
on
with
the
non
respondents?
What's
the
non
respondents
called
the
non-response
bias
it
may
well
be
that
1500
is
giving
you
a
sufficiently
reliable
picture
because
there's
no
difference
between
the
respondents
and
the
non
respondents.
It
could
also
be
that
the
non
respondents
have
a
very
different
structure
or
different
ownership
and
therefore
you're
missing.
Quite
a
lot
of
information
from
those
missing
responses.
I
think
that's
the
way
to
think
about.
E
C
H
D
Don't
know
the
the
powers,
but
we
certainly
have
the
power
to
fine
fine
businesses
if
they,
if
they
don't
comply,
that's
obviously
something
we
don't
want
to
do
and
just
coming
back
to
your
your
point,
I
very
much
agree
and
I
think
there
is
a
challenge.
Sometimes
as
a
statistical
office,
you
will
talk
about
well.
D
This
is
very
important
for
the
set
point
point
of
view
of
the
survey,
but
then,
actually
you
need
to
tell
the
picture
of
the
wider
picture
as
to
why
these
surveys
are
very
important
and
we
find
that
also
is
very
true.
On
the
individual
survey
side,
we
explain
to
people
why,
if
we're
coming
around
to
understand
about
your
wealth
assets,
your
pension
savings
about
how
that
informs
government
pensions
policy
so
our
best
field,
researchers
are
the
ones
who
make
those
connections
and
explain,
explain
why?
I
You
and
we've
heard
from
witnesses
that
statistics
on
non-market
activities
and
well-being
aren't
as
well
covered
and
I
was
wondering.
Is
that
just
because
there's
a
lack
of
demand
for
them,
because
the
OECD
certainly
talked
about
other
countries
using
time
use,
surveys
and
I
wonder
whether
the
ONS
is
considering
anything
similar.
So.
D
Maybe
I
should
start
by
saying
we
certainly
see
there
is
a
wider
need
to
go.
Were
the
phrase
we
use
it
so
beyond
GDP
now,
obviously,
GDP
is
very
useful.
It
informs
a
lot
of
forecasting
around
around
the
economy,
around
tax
collection
and
revenue
generation
more
widely.
So
it's
really
very,
very
important
as
a
as
a
concept,
but
we
have
used
timeyou
surveys
to
look
at
non
market
production.
We
publish
the
results
on
that
last
year.
Again
that
does
show
some
interesting
trends.
D
Actually
nom
nom
market
production
has
grown
slightly
quicker
than
GDP
in
the
rich
in
the
recent
recent
past,
so
that
is
that
is
out
there.
It's
something
we'd
like
to
think
about
how
we
can
make
it
more
sophisticated,
but
actually
is
quite
that
is
quite
burdensome
when
you're
asking
individuals
for
how
did
you
spend
your
time
today?
You
can
see
quite
quickly
that
that
becomes
quite
quite
quite
burdensome,
but
it
is.
D
It
does
give
you
insight
into
what's
happening
with
patterns
of
childcare
or
caring
for
the
elderly,
how
much
volunteering
goes
on
and
how
much
that's
worth.
So
there
is
quite
a
lot
in
that
in
that
space
we've
published
our
well-being,
statistics
I,
think
we've
published
the
next
batch
I
think
came
out
this
morning,
so
you
know
that's
something
where
we
are
trying
to
make
certain.
D
C
D
C
Important
to
distinguish
two
separate
strands
in
your
question:
one
is
non
market
activity
and
the
other
is
sort
of
the
broader
question
of
well-being
and
those
other
indicators
on
the
first
of
those,
and
one
of
the
issues
that
I
discussed
in
my
review
was
the
fact
that
there
might
be
shifts
across
the
production
boundary
taking
place.
I
mean
conventionally
statisticians
have
said:
okay,
we'll
measure
what
takes
place
in
the
market
economy
are
not
the
stuff
that
takes
place
in
the
non
market
economy.
C
There's
a
lot
of
economic
activity,
work,
that's
done
at
home,
charitable
activities
and
so
forth,
with
some
exceptions
so
imputed.
Rent
of
owner-occupiers
is
a
classic
example
of
something
which
is
not
within
the
conventional
production
boundary,
but
we
measure
in
the
national
accounts,
and
the
reason
for
that
is
that
you
don't
want
to
distort
the
conventional
market
measures
if
there's
a
shift
between
occupying
rented
accommodation,
so
activities
which
are
sufficiently
big
and
might
change
in
importance.
C
Satis
systems
would
think.
Oh
there's
a
case
for
measuring
them
at
the
current
juncture.
I
think,
it's
quite
plausible
to
say,
there's
quite
a
lot
of
activities
that
previously
would
have
been
done
by
intermediaries
in
the
market
economy
and
always
give
the
example
travel
agents
in
the
old
days
you'd
go
down
when
you
want
to
book
a
holiday
spend
an
hour
talking
to
travel
agent
about
where
to
go.
Then
he'd
get
on
the
phone
and
book
the
flights
view,
but
the
hotel
you've
gone,
buy
a
guidebook.
What
you
do
these
days,
you
do.
C
The
research
online
you
book
direct
with
the
carrier,
maybe
stay
air
B&B.
Rather
the
conventional
hotel.
You
use
Google
Maps
to
get
around
a
lot
of
that
activity
has
been
taken
out
to
the
Kombi
market
economy,
so,
potentially
the
market
economy
statistics
like
GDP
are
being
distorted,
so
the
solution
is
not
necessarily
to
say.
C
Well,
we
have
to
expand
the
measure
to
include
all
these
other
things
because
they
may
be
difficult
to
measure
continuously,
but
as
a
minimum,
you
want
to
know
how
big
the
distortions
might
be,
which
is
where
these
time
use
surveys
might
come
in
and
I
suspect
that
we
will
need
to
do
more
of
that
going
forward.
But
there
may
be
clever
ways
of
getting
information
on
that.
C
So
obviously,
internet
usage
is
something
which
there
is
a
lot
of
data
on
collected
by
the
the
digital
companies,
the
broader
issue
of
sort
of
well-being,
of
which
there's
been
a
lot
of
interest.
Reasoning,
I
should
say
from
my
perspective,
talking
as
a
just
as
a
an
academic,
economist,
I'm
skeptical,
of
single
measures
of
well-being,
gross
national
happiness.
Things
like
that
I
certainly
don't
think
that
GDP
is
a
sufficient
statistic
for
welfare.
C
It's
not,
and
economists
will
always
tell
you
that,
but
I
don't
think
the
solution
is
to
get
a
load
of
indicators
together,
throw
them
in
the
pot
put
some
arbitrary
weighting
system
in
and
say
here's
my
better
measure,
GDP
works
as
a
concept,
because
it
you
it
can
use
prices
to
wait
things
to
get
there
and
prices
are
a
measure
of
marginal
utility.
As
soon
as
you
start
incorporating
other
things,
it's
not
clear
what
the
weighting
should
be
so
I
think
a
more
fruitful
way
forward
is
something
like
a
scorecard
approach.
E
Very
much
agree
with
lots
of
Charles
as
about
this
distinction
between
GDP
is
this
in
effect,
internationally
comparable
and
consistent
measure
and
then
something
which
might
be
more
of
a
dashboard
or
a
series
of
indicators
that
responds
to
different
policy
imperatives
and
policy
drivers
and
I.
Think
one
of
the
really
interesting
things
that
you,
as
a
committee
have
been
hearing
from
your
your
witnesses,
has
been
this
kind
of
fault
line
between
what
needs
to
be
done
to
replicate
at
the
Scotland
level.
E
The
best
possible
range
of
economic
statistics
that
are
available
at
the
UK
level
and
that's
what
lies
behind
all
of
the
gaps
that
I
mentioned
in
my
introduction
is
sort
of
that
replication.
That's
important!
It's
it's
very
useful
and
very
much
needed,
but
the
fault
line
is
between
that
and
then
thinking.
Well,
what
are
the
things
that
we
actually
care
about
in
the
context
of
Scotland
as
policymakers,
as
people
who
scrutinize
government
performance
and
there
I
think
you're,
not
so
much
in
a
space
of
replication
you're
in
the
space
of
innovation
of
thinking?
E
What
are
the
things
that
that
really
matter?
You've
talked
about
the
four
eyes.
I!
Think
they
are
a
particular
emphasis
in
Scotland's
economic
strategy
and
I
think
developing
a
way
of
getting
a
really
good
handle
on
those
is
something
which
could
be
quite
quite
innovative.
One
other
thing
that
I
would
mention:
Jonathan
talked
about
personal
well-being,
measures
which
were
published
this
morning
by
awareness,
I,
think
they're
relatively
under
appreciated
as
a
resource
in
this
space.
Actually
they're
often
spoken
about
slightly
dismissively
as
being
a
kind
of
a
Happiness
measure.
E
I
think
that
they
now
is
a
growing
time
series
of
personal
well-being
over
time,
it's
quite
possible
to
drill
down
to
quite
local
levels,
because
the
dataset
is
large
enough
and
it's
quite
possible
to
correlate
the
personal
well-being
responses
that
people
give
with
other
aspects
of
their
life.
I
think
it's
quite
a
rich
policy
area
to
think
about
well-being,
which
is
which
has
tended
to
be
sort
of
slightly
marginalized.
So
I'd
encourage
some
creative
thought
there
as
well.
D
So
often
there
is
a
small
number
of
questions
and
they
will
just
be.
You
know
you.
We
would
have
gone
out
to
talk
to
somebody
about.
You
know
they're
late,
you
know
if
they're
working
and
you
know
their
job,
those
sorts
of
things
or
you
know
that
their
pensions
or
something
like
that,
and
then
we
will
tag
on
the
question
at
the
end.
D
E
D
E
D
B
Thank
you
can
view
that
can
I
just
go
back
to
what
you
said
about
a
VAT
receipts,
because
clearly
the
Scottish
fiscal
framework
agreement
between
the
UK
government,
the
Scottish
Government,
has
a
notional
figure
earlier
for
VAT
receipts
and
from
what
you
said.
It
sounds
as
though
the
calculation
of
VAT
receipts
allocated
to
Scotland
may
not
be
a
reliable
figure.
I.
D
Think
you
you
have
to
write.
The
key
thing
is
to
understand:
there's
a
distinction
between
how
v80
is
collected
and
collected
from
companies,
but
the
incidence
is
borne
by
individuals,
so
you
may
for
and
I
I,
don't
know
exactly
how
the
methodology
works,
but
you
might,
if
you're
interested
in
where
the
receipts
have
generated
from
you're
more
interested
in
where
people
are
spending
rather
than
which
company
collected
it
yep.
So
so
you
you
can
do
Matt.
You
can
develop
a
methodology
to
look
at
that.
D
D
B
The
problem
is,
the
Scottish
government
doesn't
have
any
of
its
all
your
statistics.
They,
you
know
they're
rely
entirely
on
the
UK
HMRC
in
the
light
to
to
provide
this
at
this,
but
the
other
reason
why
this
is
important
as
a
political
controversy
in
the
moment
about
VAT
on
police
and
fire
services
and
have
been
tracing
to
know.
B
If
the
methodology
is
the
state
or
not
state
explicitly
if
the
VAT
receipts
from
the
police
and
fire
brigade
are
actually
included
in
the
notional
figure
for
vibe,
because
clearly,
if
they
are
already
included,
then
the
situation
would
be
neutral
if
they're,
not
included
and
obviously
there's
a
deficit,
so
that
that'd
be
useful.
If
you're
able
to
answer
that
question
as
well,
can
I
can
I
also
board
to.
Obviously
you
referred
to
jails
and
offices
with
a
lot
of
very
good
work
done,
north
and
south
of
the
border
on
jails
down
the
years.
B
D
D
So
sometimes
you
will
use
employment
as
a
proxy
for
where
the
economic
activity
is
take
taking
taking
place,
but
so
sometimes
it's
using
proxies,
rather
than
actual
understanding
of
where
they're,
where
the
tax
arrives,
and
obviously,
if
there's
a
company
that
has
a
single
office
and
only
operates
in
Scotland,
that's
quite
easy
to
understand.
Where
that
is
it's
more
complex.
When
you
have
the
sort
of
the
supermarket's,
for
example,
how
do
you
allocate
those
that
there
we
would
look?
Look
for
things
like
employment
to
allocate
that
again.
D
B
If
we
go
back
to
Canada,
please
assist
in
the
briefing
here
that
in
Canada
most
of
the
statistics
they
you
know,
I've
gathered
I-
think
it's
the
top
round
bottom
round
top
dome
and
in
Canada
by
clinking
the
statistics
bottom
up.
Don't
don't
it's
out
quietly
unable
to
produce
more
accurate
figures
at
provincial
and
regional
level?
B
B
D
They
have
to
use
a
whole
series
of
proxies
for,
for
that,
you
can
in
in
theory,
start
asking
businesses
to
apportion
their
activity
between
different
geographical
areas,
but
that
could
be
quite
burdensome
one.
Actually,
as
a
business
yourself,
how
do
you
allocate
overheads?
It's
always
going
to
be
a
challenge.
How
you
do
that?
So,
even
if
you
do
start
asking
more
granular
data
of
businesses
that
may
not
be
any
more
reliable
than
using
other
data
to
apportion
apportion
activity
and.
B
D
J
Good
morning
and
my
question
is
specifically
direct
at
the
ONS,
so
obviously,
we've
got
a
situation
where
levels
of
devolution
across
the
UK
are.
You
know
somewhat
variable
in
terms
of
statistics
and
so
on,
and
the
yoenis
obviously
focuses
particularly
on
developing
statistics
for
both
UK
as
a
whole,
but
also
some
regional
statistics
as
well.
So
I'm
wondering
to
what
extent
are
the
unique
or
you
know,
specific
needs
of
the
Scottish
government
or
for
Scotland
as
a
whole
sort
of
factored
into
the
primary
objectives
or
the
ONS.
D
So
going
back
to
my
opening
remarks,
IRA
we
try
and
have
everything
we
do
has
to
be
user
focused
what
are
people
needing
these
statistics
for
and
decisions
that
need
need
to
be
made,
and
in
that
sense
we
are
very
very
alive
to
the
needs
of
Scotland
but,
as
I
said,
also
Wales,
Northern,
Ireland
and
and
the
English
regions
with
devolution
within
England.
So
that's
a
real
focus
for
us
I
think
we've
got
a
track
record
of
working
with
the
Scottish
Government
to
innovate.
D
D
We
have
a
a
particular
group
that
meets
on
economic
statistics
between
the
ons,
Scotland,
Wales
and
Northern
Ireland
on
a
quarterly
basis
as
well
to
look
at
common
issues
to
look
at
what
needs
are
so
I
think,
there's
a
lot
we
do
to
try
and
make
certain
we
incorporate
all
the
different
needs,
whether
that's
a
uk-wide
need,
whether
that's
all
whether
that's
a
Scottish
need,
as
I
said
it
times,
some
things
that
are
easier
to
deliver
than
others.
And
so
you
know
some
things
do
require
extra
resource
or
new
new
data
collections
to
do.
D
J
E
I
just
add
when
we
assess
statistics
produced
by
ons,
which
are,
of
course
at
the
UK
level,
we
assess
them
against
the
code
of
practice
to
determine
whether
they
are
meeting
the
high
standards
to
be
a
national
statistic.
One
of
the
things
we
look
at
is
the
extent
to
which
they
are
serving
user
needs
beyond
the
UK
level.
E
So
we
recently
published
an
assessment
of
regional
gross
value
added
and
we
looked
a
lot
at
the
ascent
to
which
the
questions
which
those
statistics
were
addressing
really
spoke
to
the
interests
of
policymakers
in
Scotland,
but
also
in
the
regions
of
England
and
also
Wales
Norton
liner.
It
is
a
thing
that
we
in
a
sense
my
job,
is
to
kind
of
sometimes
fraud
or
nagy,
various
degrees
of
politeness,
to
firmness
the
ONS
into
making
change,
and
that's
an
area
that
we
do.
We
do
make
those
interventions
on.
J
My
next
question
was
coming
on
to
that
there,
the
process
for
sort
of
developing
those
objectives,
so
you've
obviously
touched
on
that
there
with
this
in
Administration
Committee
and
then
you
know
mr.
Hamptons
obviously
said
that
there's
a
possibly
an
element
of
kind
of
encouraging
their
inner
city
to
develop
those
processes.
So
can
I
just
ask
if
the
Scottish
government,
for
instance,
came
to
you
in
one
of
these
committee
meetings
and
said:
look
we
really
want
to
go
in
a
different
direction.
We
want
data
on
X.
D
D
We
were
lucky
in
the
sense
that
we've
now
brought
in
a
wider
range
of
academics
to
work
with
us,
so
we
can
now
get
them
to
think
about
how
realistic
that
is
and
what
we
would
what
we
would
need
to
do
and
said
in
some
cases
we
can
respond
very
quickly
because
that
you
know
if
the
data
is
already
sitting
there
and
it
just
needs
to
be
cut
in
a
different
way.
That
could
often
be
done
quite
quite
quite
straightforwardly.
D
If
it
requires
a
whole
new
data
collection,
then
we
would
I
think
they
would
just
sit
down
with
the
Scottish
government
work
out.
What
the
best
way
of
doing
that
is.
You
know
that
might
be
a
combination.
You
know,
Scotland
run
some
of
his
own
commission
surveys
itself.
It
could
be
something
we
do.
It
could
be
something
we
do
where
we
take
one
of
our
existing
surveys
and
modify
it
slightly
in
Scotland.
D
All
those
options
would
be
would
be
open
and
we
would
just
think
about
what
the
best
way
of
meeting
those
that
those
needs
are.
Sometimes
there
are
very
difficult
conceptual
issues,
understanding
exports
or
imports
to
or
from
Scotland
is
is,
is
conceptually
challenging
it's
an
area.
Maybe
we
don't
many,
not
just
not
just
in
Scotland,
but
Wales
is
also
very
interested
in
that,
but
that
that
is
quite
challenging.
So
sometimes
it's
not
just
the
data
collection,
but
actually
some
of
the
conceptual
issues
of
what
does.
What
does
an
export
from
Scotland
mean?
C
Inject
a
suggestion
at
the
moment,
key
users
like
the
Bank
of
England
and
the
Treasury
have
an
annual
process
of
interaction
with
the
ons
on
which
we,
basically
each
year
would
say
you
know
what
worked
well,
what
hadn't
worked
well,
but
also
signals
priorities
for
future
development.
What
we
would
like
to
see-
and
so
when
I
was
at
the
banquet,
often
we
said
we'd
like
to
completion
the
flow
of
funds,
for
instance
I.
K
Very
much
convener
I
mean
following
on
from
that
section.
20
of
the
statistics.
Registration
service
act
provides
that
the
board
may
itself
produced
and
published
a
district
fellating
to
any
matter
relating
to
the
United
Kingdom
or
any
part
of
it.
So
can
we
take
it
from
that
that
the
UK
statistic
Authority
has
got
unfettered
powers
to
produce
any
statistics
for
any
part
of
the
UK
on
any
matter.
That's
just
what
that
says.
D
There
are
obviously
in
certain
areas,
such
as
population
yeah,
the
collection
and
publication
of
population
statistics
rests
with
the
National
Register
for
Scotland,
so
in
some
cases
there
is
specific
elements
of
devolution
that
have
meant
that,
for
example,
the
census
we
are
the
census
provider
in
England
and
Wales
misra
is
the
provider
in
in
Northern
Ireland
and
an
NRS
here
here
in
Scotland.
So
broadly,
yes,
but
there
are
some
areas
where
you
know
there
are
long-standing
constitutional
differences,
the
means,
but
the
means
we
don't
get
into
those
particular
areas.
Sure.
K
K
So
it
seems,
there's
no
statutory
constraints
to
getting
better
statistics
that
are
relevant
to
users,
particularly
in
Scotland,
and
we
heard
I
think
last
week
from
the
Scottish
fiscal
commission
who
perhaps
have
a
and
I
need
twitches
of
a
different
order
of
importance
here,
because
they're
involved
in
forecasting
and
on
the
basis
of
those
forecasts
we
set
budgets
which
affect
the
amount
of
tax
people,
pay
the
amount
of
economic
activity.
We
anticipate
be
generated
in
the
economy.
K
Is
there
a
need
to
formalize
that,
along
the
lines
that
so
Charles
beam
has
just
talked
about
it
to
make
sure
that
that
becomes
part
of
a
much
more
formalized
process
whereby
the
needs
of,
for
example,
of
Scottish
fiscal
commission
can
be
flagged
up
pretty
early
in
a
process
and
once
it
takes
on
its
powers,
everything's
in
place,
Tello
do
the
job
to
the
best
of
its
abilities.
Well,.
D
I
think
that
there
could
well
be
I
mean
I.
Think
one
of
the
things
we
have
been
thinking
internally
is
is
the
through
the
UK
Statistics
Authority
board.
We
are
accountable
to
the
Scottish
Parliament,
the
Welsh
Assembly
Northern,
Ireland
Assembly
and
the
UK
Parliament,
and
we
have
been
thinking
about
how
we
make
that
real.
We
obviously
lay
our
annual
report
on
accounts.
D
Sorry
I'm,
a
report
before
the
before
the
Scottish
Scottish
Parliament.
But
could
we
do
something
more
systemic
I,
think
that
would
talk
about
what
we
had
done
to
meet
Scottish
user
needs
and
use
that
to
elicit
further
feedback,
so
I'm
very
open-minded
about
how
we
might
strengthen
that
relationship
to
make
certain
all
needs
are
articulated
early.
We
do
go
out
and
engage
all
users.
D
We
have
something
called
a
quick
statistics
and
analysis
strategy
which
sets
out
our
priorities
for
the
year
we
go
out
and
consult
on
that
and
say
is
that
is
that
people's
needs,
but
certainly
this,
if
there
is
more,
we
could
do.
You
think,
would
be
relevant
to
Scotland.
In
particular,
the
Scottish
Parliament
I
think
would
be
very
open-minded
about
that.
There.
E
E
E
Of
course,
that
resonated
with
me,
because
the
office
facility
regulation
has,
for
a
couple
of
years
now
really
been
a
prompting
ons
on
the
question
of
more
comprehensive
income
and
earnings
statistics
and
more
timely
ones,
but
I
think
the
general
point
that
here
you
have
in
the
the
Commission,
the
fiscal
commission,
an
important
user
with
new
responsibilities
would
be
exactly
the
sort
of
play
that
feed
into
some
kind
of
forum
to
say.
Well,
these
are
needs
what
are
the
best
ways
to
meet
them
and.
K
I
mean
on
that
point.
On
the
practicalities
of
doing
this,
we
have
some
figures
about
the
the
money
that
the
Scottish
government
spends
on
boosting
the
various
surveys
to
get
better
results.
There
are
modest
sums
of
money
in
the
bigger
scheme
of
things,
but
can
I
take
it
that
those
kind
of
arrangements
are
ad
hoc
arrangements.
The
government
says
it
wants
to
boost
a
survey.
Talk
to
ons,
you
say
well,
this
wouldn't
be
very
easy.
Budgets
are
tight
this
year
they
say
well
what
happened
to
shipping
something
to
help,
and
then
you
have
a
negotiation.
K
D
Mean
essentially,
we
would
we
would
set
a
requirement,
you
know
across
temp
to
meet
the
particular
needs,
so
that
might
be
a
certain
sample
size.
If
Scotland
then
wanted
an
additional
sample
size,
we
would
expect
that
on
a
cost,
recovery
cost
recovery
basis.
Unless
there
was
something
very
trivial.
If
it
was
a
very
simple
thing
to
do,
we
wouldn't
be.
D
We
wouldn't
ask
for
cost
recovery
of
cost
recovery
on
that,
but
more
generally,
it's
where
it
differs
from
the
the
UK
approach
we
would
expect
and
yeah
that's
how
it
has
worked,
that
we
ask
for
cost
recovery
on
any
additional
from
boosting
those
visiting
those
samples.
We
think
that
seems
to
work
well
gives
Scotland.
The
statistics
it
wants
doesn't
then
mean
we
have
to
trade
off
anything
else
within
within
the
within
the
ons.
L
Largely
covered
quite
a
lot
of
what
I
was
going
to
ask
around
inclusive
growth
and
and
regionality.
Some
is
something
else,
and
forgive
me
I
if
it
sounds
like
I'm,
expecting
you
to
have
watched
every
single
second
offer,
then
quietly
so
far,
okay,
and
tell
me
if
I,
if
I
am
awful
about
this,
so
the
equation
get
off
for
a
number
of
weeks.
Is
that
anything
that
you've
heard
from
evidence
and
preparing
to
come
today
that
struck
you?
L
It's
been
something
you
didn't
already
appreciate
or
know
that
may
be
giving
you
pause
for
thought
or
maybe
how
the
exists
thing.
Your
existing
bodies
can
actually
better
serve
Scotland's
interests,
maybe
not
with
this.
What
we've
just
talked
about
the
underweight
wounds,
question
about
I
was
paying
for
more,
but
maybe
just
in
terms
of
maybe
just
changing
slightly
how
you
operate
when
you're
doing
these
existing
surveys,
I.
D
Suppose
the
the
interesting
thing
I
mean
I
think
picking
up
on
the
Scottish
Episcopal
Commission
I,
think
that
is
something
that
is,
you
know
rapidly
developing.
You
know
an
interesting
and
challenging
new
function.
There
needs
to
be
done
so
I
think
there
is
something
there
that
really
that
stood
out
for
me
and
as
a
particular
issue,
I
think.
The
other
thing
that
was
interesting
here
was
this
is
a
very.
We
are
a
very
interesting
stage
in
the
sense
there
are.
D
There
are
huge
numbers
of
new
requests
coming
through
and
I
could
sort
of
see
lots
of
different
lots
of
different
elements
that
people
were
asking
for.
I
was
surprised
by
the
the
breadth
of
it
and
I.
Think
that
simply
as
devolution
widens
and
deepens,
so
I
think
that
so
I
think
those
needs
will
then
become
a
bit
more
focused.
D
As
as
new
frameworks
coming,
you
know,
new
measurement
frameworks
are
developed
as
these
Scottish
government
gets
grips
with
new
powers.
I
think
those
will
then
become
a
bit
sharper
focus
so
I
was
I
was
I,
was
the
breath
of
what
you've
heard
I
think
covers
virtually
everything
in
my
responsibility
in
the
ONS
and
a
lot
wider.
It
really
was
a
real
tour
of
all
the
issues.
D
The
people
on
people's
minds,
which
of
those
become
the
most
prominent
in
terms
of
really
crunchy
statistical
needs,
I
think
that's
the
next
stage,
I'm
interested
in
seeing
how
we
sort
of
narrow
down
that
very,
very
wide
field
into
some
priorities.
That
really
you
know.
We
can
then
start
to
work
through
my.
E
Point
of
view,
I'm,
not
sure
earth
is
gonna.
Answer
your
question,
but
I'll
say
what
my
reaction
was
to
looking
at
the
previous
sessions.
There's
one
thing
which
slightly
surprised
me
from
one
thing,
which
quite
excited
me:
the
thing
which
surprised
me
was
I
think
you
had
a
couple
of
witnesses
who
talked
about
the
need
for
a
sort
of
stronger
ecosystem
of
research
and
analysis
outside
government
in
in
Scotland,
and
that
rather
surprised
me
because,
from
my
perspective,
I
see
quite
a
strong
range
of
organisations,
both
in
academia.
E
E
Now
there
are
some
things
in
that
code,
which
are
specifically
designed
for
the
government
context,
things
like
the
pre-release
access
or
the
publication
time
at
9:30.
But
if
you
step
back
from
those
and
say
well,
why
does
publication
at
9:30
matter?
Well,
it
matters
because
the
producer
of
the
information,
the
official
body
that
the
government
wants
to
demonstrate
a
commitment
to
its
users
that
it
will
publish
at
a
particular
dark
time,
come
what
may
and
regardless
of
political
drivers,
that
sort
of
commitments
being
trustworthy
is
could
be
satisfied
in
a
number
of
ways.
E
But
the
principle
of
trustworthiness
is
something
that
a
whole
range
of
other
bodies
could
easily
adopt
and
describe
how
they
comply
with.
And
similarly,
with
the
things
that
we
talked
about
around
the
quality
of
statistics,
how
that's
explained
how
you
make
quality
transparent
to
users
and
indeed
about
the
value
of
statistics?
How
statistics
produced
by
any
organization
answer
key
questions?
We
think
there's
kind
of
high-level,
we
call
them
pillars,
those
high-level
pillars,
trustworthiness,
quality
value
and
not
kind
of
a
unique
preserve
of
government
and
I.
E
Think
it's
quite
an
exciting
debate
that
you've
had
with
them.
Why
they
act
is
in
your
ecosystem.
To
think
about.
Are
there
ways
of
adopting
kind
of
universal
principles
that
can
just
help
users
marry
up
different
sources
in
a
confident
way,
I
think
it's
a
really
kind
of
a
very
innovative
and
I'd
be
very
happy
to
talk
about
it.
More
actually,
I
think
it's
an
exciting
development.
I
On
the
pre-release
access
to
statistics,
something
the
convener
has
raised,
I
believe
with
the
First
Minister
previously
and
you've
changed
your
approach
to
ministers
getting
access
to
statistics
in
advance,
but
the
Scottish
government
unfortunately
seems
to
be
stuck
doing
something
entirely
different.
And
would
you
advise
them
to
change
in
the
same
way
as
you've
done.
E
Answer
to
your
question
is
yes,
a
more
sort
of
structured
answer
is
actually
the
act
under
which
we
operate
as
the
office
for
statistics
regulation
prevents
us
from
imposing
any
changes
to
pre-release
access
arrangements.
The
Act
specifically
says
that
our
code
of
practice-
you
know
this.
This
core
enforcement
tool
cannot
deal
with
the
granting
of
pre-release
access.
So
it's
the
choice
of
the
producer
of
the
statistics,
whether
they
grant
pre-release
access.
E
The
ONS
has
recently
chosen
to
remove
it
and
actually
shortly
afterwards,
the
Bank
of
England
itself
followed
that
the
Scottish
Government
has
chosen
another
way,
so
I
can't
sort
of
say
my
yes
and
then
kind
of
enforce
it.
The
Act
prevents
me
from
doing
so,
but
I
can
make
some
kind
of
advocacy
comments
and
the
things
that
are
our
advocate
in
this
space,
a
twofold.
Firstly,
why
do
we
care
so
much
about
this?
It's
because
at
the
heart
of
what
statistics
about
is,
they
are
a
public
asset.
E
Moreover,
I
just
think
it
makes
the
job
of
the
Scottish
government
as
a
producer
of
statistics
a
little
bit
harder
I
mean
they
will
no
doubt
have
an
argument.
It
makes
makes
it
it's
beneficial
because
it
allows
them
to
have
access
to
ministers
and
and
to
explain
the
content
of
the
statistics,
but
I
think
you've
got
a
set
against
that.
This
perception
issue
whether
or
not
as
a
Charles
as
identified
there
are
actual
breaches.
E
There's
the
there's
the
there's,
the
perception
that
one
set
of
actors
ministers
are
getting
a
privileged
access,
others
aren't
and
I
think
that
means
the
Scottish
Government
to
establish
its
trustworthiness.
It's
used
by
my
term
again
to
establish
this
trustworthiness,
needs
to
work
that
much
harder
to
demonstrate
the
integrity
of
its
production
process.
I
think
it
makes
their
work
harder
in
saying
that
I'm
not
making
any
judgments
or
accusations
about
the
people
and
what
they
do.
They
are
highly
professional
I
mean
genuinely.
They
are
highly
professional
statisticians.
You
do
an
excellent
job.
E
All
them
give
my
first
thoughts
on
that.
I
think
that
good
statistics
can
emerge
from
a
whole
range
of
institutional
arrangements.
If
you
look
across
the
UK,
you
have
in
Northern
Ireland.
You
have
this
model
of
a
separate
agency
in
israa.
That
is
an
agency
of
the
Department
of
Finance,
which
operates
care
hub-and-spoke
model
there's
a
central
newsroom
with
about
200
people,
but
then
a
lot
of
its
statisticians
are
embedded
into
the
various
departments
in
the
Northern
Line
administration.
E
In
England
you
have
ministerial
ed
departments
who
are
very
effective
producers
of
statistics
in
a
very
high-quality
way,
and
if
I
could
just
single
out
one
example,
the
work
that
DWP
do
depart
for
Work
and
Pensions
do
to
produce
households
below
average
income.
That's
an
absolutely
superb
statistical
output,
which
emerges
from
a
ministerial
ed
department
in
Scotland.
You
have
what
you
might
call
a
three
peaks
model.
You
have
a
strong
statistical
hub
in
the
Scottish
government.
C
Yeah
I
think
it
certainly
does
go
beyond
pre-release
access,
because,
certainly
if
you
have
production
taking
place
within
a
department,
that's
using
it
potentially
tensions
will
rise.
So
you
have
to
have
very
clear
sorts
of
protocols
and
it
it
be
clear
that
the
producers
of
the
statistics
in
the
department
are
independent
and
producing
those
statistics
without
interference.
I
mean
the
whole
structure
of
statistics.
The
ONS
up,
sir
and
so
forth.
Going
back
to
2007
has
its
roots
in
the
perception.
C
That
may
not
have
been
true,
but
nevertheless
there
was
a
perception
that
so
the
key
objective
of
the
2007
act
was
really
to
set
up
clarity
of
Independence
and
production,
and
that
really
needs
very
clear
rules
of
operation
inside
the
department
or
organization
involved
and
one
of
the
things
that
obviously
I
investigating,
of
course,
my
reviews,
whether
that
process
was
working.
It
was
largely,
but
it
was
clear
that
there
were
occasions
that
some
producers
were
being
put
on
the
inner.
C
B
E
M
Thank
you
very
much
as
Ireland's
Islands
MSP,
you
don't
wanna,
say
I
represent
an
area
which
is
huge
and
diverse,
and
even
within
it
those
differences
within
the
kind
of
economic
speed
of
the
local
economies.
So
I
wanted
to
ask
whether
administrative
could
play
a
role
or
an
increasing
role
in
providing
more
useful
localized
data
within
within
the
regions
of
Scotland
and
even
more
local
than
that,
and
also
whether
that
data
could
be
usable
for
getting
an
idea
of
regional,
productive
productivity.
D
In
intra
what
the
answer
is:
yes,
we
certainly
more
more
administrative
data.
So
what
about
one
of
our
areas
we
want
to
explore?
Next
is
PA
ye
data,
so
we
would
then
be
able
to
understand
much
more
in
a
much
more
granular
way
what
what
people
want.
People's
earnings
from
employment,
employment
are
in
a
particular
area.
We
could
go
down
quite
small
on
that.
D
One
we'd
have
to
be
very
careful,
we
don't
it
doesn't
become
disclosed
'iv,
but
we
would
certainly
want
to
do
that
and,
as
I
said,
v80
data
does
allow
you
to
go
down
to
to
final
levels.
There
are
some
challenges
around
that
nurses
in
in
in
in
a
previous
role,
I
think
I,
answered
and
I
think
it
was
MP
in
Westminster
who
asked
what
was
that?
How
much
VAT
was
paid
by
a
particular
postcode,
which
I
believe
was
a
Scottish
island.
L
D
Actually,
there
was
only
one
company
trading
there
and
then
had
a
vac
tree
payment,
so
it
looked
like
this
island
was
not
paying
the
DAT
but,
as
I
said,
that's
the
function
of
how
its
collected
and
then
you
need
to
understand.
Given
what
we,
what
data
we
have,
how
much
can
we
really
infer
as
to
what's
going
on
locally?
So
it's
back
to
it's
not
a
magic
bullet,
but
it
does
allow
you
to
have
a
lot
more
grant
granted
data.
D
We
would
never
be
able
to
have
surveys
with
that
level
of
detail,
so
v80
data
we
have
30
or
40
times
as
much
data
as
we
collect
through
our
business
surveys.
It
is,
is
really
astounding
the
level
of
detail
we
have,
but,
as
I
said,
there
are
difficulties
in
how
you
interpret
that
data,
but
that
would
give
you
a
much
greater
understanding
of
local
performance.
So,
as
I
said,
when
we
publish
our
balanced
gross
value
added,
we're
looking
at
not
just
doing
in
Scotland,
but
the
next
layer
down
in
terms
of
detail.
D
G
Thank
You
convener,
one
of
the
central
policies
of
the
Scottish
government,
the
4i
economic
policy
is
inclusive
growth,
and
one
of
the
questions
we've
asked
in
other
other
sessions
is
whether
there
is
a
recognized
economic
definition
or
statistical
measurement
of
inclusive
growth.
Or
does
it
fall
into
the
category
of
what
you
mentioned
before
about
well
being
an
amalgamation
of
different
measurements,
which
may
mean
different
things
to
different
people?
I
think.
D
It
does
fall
into
that
category
of
having
a
scorecard
I
mean
it's
many.
You
know
one
of
the
criticisms
of
GDP
if
there's
an
average
measure
and
it's
the
distribution
that
is
important
in
people's
well-being,
so
we
do
try
and
provide
more
detail
on
the
distribution
of
of
income
on
the
distribution
of
wealth.
Those
are
quite
difficult
things
to
measure,
because
you
need
to
really
get
a
good
understanding
of
households
and
in
a
high
degree
of
detail.
D
So,
to
my
mind.
Yes,
there
are
some
definitions,
some
shortcuts
we
use,
but
you
have
to
be
very
careful,
sometimes
those
those
shortcuts.
So
sometimes
we
use
in
households
below
average
income-
and
there
are
poverty
or
low
income-
is
measured
by
certain
percents
of
household
their
household
median,
but
some
people
will
say
they're
arbitrary.
So
you
have
to
be
very
careful
that
you
don't
just
choose
one
number
that
you
have
to
look
across
the
whole
suite
of
them.
D
Similarly,
for
measures
of
inequality,
there
is
the
the
main
measure
of
inequality
is
something
called
the
Gini
coefficient,
but
actually
that's
only
measuring
one
aspect
of
inequality.
There
are
lots
of
other
different
aspects
of
inequality
that
might
be
salient
and
also
it's
inequality
in
what
we
often
focus
on
inequality
and
income,
but
in
inequality
in
wealth
might
be
more
relevant
and
also
then
it's
also
how
social
mobility.
So
there
were
just
many
aspects
to
understanding
these.
D
C
The
real
key
here
is
define
your
question
carefully
at
the
beginning.
So
don't
start
with
the
statistic
and
then
say:
oh
well
now
what
question
can
we
throw
at
it?
Think
about
what
the
question
is
that
you're
you
want
to
answer
and
try
and
define
that
precisely
and
then
go
and
look
for
the
statistic
that
most
closely
corresponds
to
that.
Well,
say
it's
statistics,
because
I
think
Jonathan
is
right.
This
is
this
is
territory
where
probably
you're
looking
at
a
portfolio
of
indicators.