►
From YouTube: Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee - 27 March 2018
Description
1. Decision on taking business in private: The Committee will decide whether to take items 3 and 4 in private.
2. Scotland's Economic Performance: The Committee will take evidence from-
Graeme Jones, Chief Executive, Scottish Financial Enterprise;
Joshua Ryan-Saha, Skills Programme Manager, The Data Lab;
Louise Smith, Fintech Envoy Scotland, HM Treasury;
Dr Peter Mowforth, Chief Executive, INDEZ Ltd;
Emil Stickland, Director, Thrive Digital;
Chris van der Kuyl, Chairman, 4J Studios;
and then from—
Stephen Good, Chief Executive Officer, Construction Scotland Innovation Centre;
Mark Baxter, Managing Director, Galliford Try Investments;
Annie Gunner-Logan, Director, Coalition of Care and Support Providers in Scotland;
Dr Donald Macaskill, Chief Executive, Scottish Care;
Alastair Wylie, Chairman and Chief Executive, CCG Construction Group.
3. Scotland's Economic Performance: The Committee will consider evidence heard at today's meeting.
4. Work programme: The Committee will consider its work programme.
Published by the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body.
www.parliament.scot // We do not facilitate discussions on our YouTube page but encourage you to share and comment on our videos on your own channels. // If you would like to join in our conversations please follow @ScotParl on Twitter or like us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/scottishparliament
A
Well
good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
tenth
meeting
of
the
economy,
jobs
and
Fair
Work
committee
for
2018
I
would
remind
everyone
in
the
gallery
to
turn
all
electrical
devices
to
silent
so
as
not
to
interfere
with
the
meeting.
We've
received.
Apologies
from
committee
members,
Jackie,
Bailey
and
Gillian
Martin
and
item
one
is
a
decision
by
the
committee
to
take
items
3
and
4
in
private.
Are
we
agreed?
Yes,
thank
you
now
we
turn
to
our
inquire
into
Scotland's
economic
performance.
A
E
F
G
A
A
D
Strickland
so
I
mean
in
in
terms
of
e-commerce,
it's
quite
difficult
to
tell
how
good
Scotland,
how
well
Scotland
is
doing
in
relation
to
the
rest
of
the
UK.
The
UK
we
know
is
one
of
the
I
mean
per
capita
territories,
the
best
performer
globally
number
three
in
terms
of
total
ecommerce
retail
sales.
So
it's
punching
well
above
its
weight
on
an
international
scale
and
anecdotal
evidence
suggests
that
this
has
not
been
replicated
within
Scotland
and
I.
Don't
have
any
any
numbers
as
far
as
I'm
aware
they
don't
exist.
D
But
if
you
look
things
like
Google
Trends,
which
obviously
Google
tend
Trends
indexes
Google
search
volume
across
the
internet,
and
if
you
look
at
various
regions
in
the
UK
and
the
term,
e-commerce
and
people
who
are
searching
for
e-commerce
are
not
looking
to
buy
things.
They're
looking
to
engage
in
some
way
with
e-commerce,
and
if
you
look
I
mean
London,
obviously
index
to
add
a
hundred
the
higher
search
volume
there
and
the
gradually
you
move
out
and
out
it
dips
and
yet
Wales,
which
is
around
70
and
in
the
Midlands
who's.
D
Quite
strong
they're
areas
in
Manchester
in
places
like
that
which
are
very
good
and
Scotland,
the
lowest
I've,
seen
it's
30.
So
really
the
the
amount
of
search
volume,
an
interest
in
e-commerce
as
a
subject
is,
is
very
much
lower
than
the
rest
of
the
UK.
So
I
I
mean
another
piece
of
kind
of
anecdotal
evidence
on.
D
It's
a
bit
like
eBay
for
b2b,
and
if
you
look
at
the
top
countries
for
Scottish
whiskey-
and
this
is
in
order-
you
get
China
Germany,
Japan,
Thailand,
Taiwan,
new
UAE,
England,
United,
States,
Hong,
Kong,
angry
and
then
Scotland,
so
we're
quite
a
long
way
down
selling
our
biggest
export
on
the
world's
largest
b2b
export
market,
which,
although
you
know
it's
difficult
to
draw
any
firm
conclusions
on
that.
But
I
would
think
that
would
stand
us
in
in
pretty
bad
stead
as
a
whole
ecommerce
country
any
way.
D
Have
yet
to
begin
to
teach
people
and
tell
people
about
the
opportunities,
because
it's
not
difficult
to
set
up.
You
know
the
distilleries
could
be
doing
this
direct
and
selling
direct
at
a
much
higher
margin.
I
mean
the
two
reasons
for
that
is
either
other
countries
are
exporting
at
a
wholesale
price
and
putting
on
Scottish
whiskey
onto
Alibaba
or
its
fakes.
So
it's
a
kind
of
it's
a
brand
protection.
D
H
D
Mean
that
that
I
don't
know
the
answer
to,
but
considering
that
China
and
Germany
are
number
one.
I
would
think
that
I
mean
I
would
think
a
lot
of
the
Chinese
ones
are
fakes
and
probably
a
loss
of
the
German
ones
are
just
the
Germans
are
good
exporting
and
using
Alibaba
and
I.
Don't
know
the
intricacies
of
the
market,
and
but
from
this
kind
of
very
simple
evidence
that
I
understand
is
simple.
It
would
suggest
that
Scotland
is
not
performing
as
well
as
it
could.
You
I
mean
this.
D
This
is
just
the
search
volume
on
the
first
few
pages.
So
all
the
small
distilleries,
for
example,
that
are
still
owned
by
Scottish
companies
and
all
the
craft
is
still
is
that
are
coming
through
on
the
back
of
the
kind
of
gin
boom.
They
could
be
listing
globally
and
they
could
have
access
to
a
global
market
overnight,
but
there's
no
support
for
doing
that.
I.
G
G
It's
had
an
enormous
impact,
however
I
think
it's
fair
to
say
it's
quietly
that
the
the
price
of
a
barrel
of
Brent
crude
is
quietly
coming
back
up
again,
which
I
think
is
good,
so
we're
shooing
a
bit
of
recovery
there,
and
no
one
welcomes
that
more
than
we
do
in
terms
of
how
does
it
impact
on
banking
in
airfare
sits?
We
are.
G
We
are
financial
services,
we
serve
the
community,
we
serve
customers
at
the
day's
end,
we're
very
large
businesses,
but
we
sell
serving
customers
and
one
of
the
first
thing
that
happened
when
people
come
to
a
bit
of
economic
pressures,
it
discretionary
spend
goes
out
the
window,
so
people
make
the
car
do
another
couple
of
years
and
don't
renew
the
car
rather
than
moving
to
a
bigger
house.
You
might
say
well
we'll
build
an
extension
on
the
existing
house.
We've
got,
they
might
not
go
on
holiday.
G
There's
a
whole
raft
of
things
that
you
do
have
been
there
myself.
So
I
know
what
I'm
talking
about.
There's
things
that
you
have
to
do
to
tighten
the
belt
and-
and
that
of
course
affects
the
economy,
enormous
Lee,
because
at
the
moment,
just
now,
if
you
look
at
consumer
LED
growth
in
the
UK
economy,
they're
banking
I
would
say
it's
going
to
be
around
about
2%.
But
it's
a
consumer
led
economy.
G
G
R&Amp;D
businesses
were
ninth
out
of
12
and
the
percentage
of
our
GDP
that
we
spend
on
R&D.
So
that's
something
that
we
need
to
look
at
correcting
and
whilst
a
number
of
private
sector
enterprises
is
at
a
record
high,
we're.
Similarly,
ninth
in
the
UK
in
terms
of
new
business
registrations,
with
only
50
new
business
registrations
for
ten
thousand
of
the
adult
population
in
2016
compared
to
youth
UK
figure
of
67.
G
So
we
need
to
do
our
bit
to
stimulate
our
young
people
to
want
to
me,
be
set
up
and
go
out
on
the
road
and
we'll
talk
about
FinTech
anew
that
very
exciting
world
of
FinTech,
which,
in
in
banking
and
fs,
is
all
links
in
to
what
my
colleague
you
over
there
was
talking
about
with
e-commerce
and
level.
So
then
the
business
investment
like
the
UK
as
a
whole
remain
lower
than
many
of
our
competitors
elsewhere.
However,
with
the
recent
announcement
of
the
Scottish
national
investment
bank,
I
think
that
will
be
another
leave
it.
G
C
The
tenured
horizon
is
an
interesting
one
to
look
at.
From
my
perspective,
I,
within
the
video
game
industry
ten
years
ago,
many
of
us
in
sort
of
the
SME
side
of
video
games
development
were
looking
in.
You
know,
with
with
a
lot
of
trepidation.
As
to
what
was
to
come.
You
know
it
would
seem
that
bigger
corporations
with
ever
bigger
budgets
were
starting
to
dominate
the
industry
I,
but
the
great
news
is,
we
were
completely
wrong
and
the
last
ten
years
because
of
democratization
of
distribution
through
digital
platforms
effectively
rather
than
through
physical
retail.
C
You
know,
so
we
always
you
know
boom
or
in
the
fact
that
the
high
street
is
a
is
shrinking
and
it's
becoming
less
important
and
that's
a
terrible
thing
for
us
all.
The
flip
side
of
that
is
for
small
creative
businesses.
The
distribution
models
being
online
have
completely
opened
up
a
market
rather
than
being
completely
restricted
by
wild
skilled
distributors
who,
which
effect.
C
If
we
decide
what
the
public
was
going
to
buy
by
distribution
alone,
I
and
that's
led
to
in
the
past
ten
years,
a
play-
that
of
enormous
growth,
businesses
being
created
almost
out
of
nothing
I'm
and
Scotland-
has
significantly
benefited
in
the
high-end.
Of
course,
I
stole
from
the
Parliament.
Here
we
have,
what's
reputed
to
be
the
most
valuable
video
games,
property,
actually,
the
most
valuable
entertainment
property
in
the
world.
C
If
anyone
has
knowledge
of
the
video
games,
industry
are
responsible
for
a
game
called
fortnight,
which
is
reputed
to
be
generating
revenues
of
something
like
a
hundred
million
dollars
a
month
at
the
moment
and
that's
from
a
standing
start
a
few
months
ago.
So
these
industries
are
accelerating
to
an
order
of
magnitude
above
where
they
were
ten
years
ago.
The
opportunities
for
small
biz
to
enter
our
significant.
We
in
Scotland
have
created
some
of
these
businesses.
C
There's
a
venture
capital
back
business
in
Scotland
called
out
deeply
out,
please
in
the
free-to-play
mobile
space
I'm,
and
it's
seen
significant
growth
I
with
principal
backing
from
Scottish
investors.
So
we've
got
a
really
bright
outlook,
I'm
in
that
core
videogame
sector
and
what
we
need
are
more
talented
individuals
to
come
in
both
indigenously
created,
so
University
of
Alberta
is
obviously
Dundee
is,
is
clearly
shining
like
globally
in
terms
of
a
training
and
development
of
individuals
for
for
this
sector.
C
So
more
of
that
I'm
and
when
I
say
more
of
it,
you
know
I
mean
I
substantially
more.
When
I
talk,
I've
just
come
back
from
our
annual
game
developer
conference
in
San,
Francisco
and
I've
talked
a
number
of
people
interested
in
starting
and
supporting
businesses
here
in
Scotland,
and
the
one
question
they
asked
is:
are
there
enough
people?
Is
it
worth
my
while
coming
here?
C
I
analysing
the
television
output,
the
other
businesses,
just
after
Dan
Dundee
called
Brooker
insights,
which
operates
in
the
National
Insurance
piece.
Both
of
these
businesses
have
one
big
thing
in
common:
they
couldn't
have
existed
10
years
ago,
10
years
ago.
There
really
wasn't
a
platform
like,
for
example,
EWS,
Amazon,
Web,
Services
or
cloud-based
computer,
in
the
way
that
is
today
that
revolution
has
allowed
people
with
amazing
ideas,
but
not
enormous
amounts
of
capital
that
need
to
be
invested
in
hardware
and
infrastructure,
to
realize
these
ideas
and
build
businesses
of
tremendous
growth
and
skill.
C
Those
businesses
are
incredibly
close
to
success
stories
in
Scotland
like
Skyscanner
and
FanDuel.
In
terms
of
the
the
market
environment.
That's
allowed
them
to
grow
the
market
environment.
Is
there
it's
now
all
about
deployment
of
skill
base
and
if
there's
any
restriction
to
growth
for
those
companies,
it's
a
restriction.
You
know
one
of
one
of
skill,
not
access
to
capital
anymore,
not
access
to
to
the
right
core
idea.
Generation,
talent,
but
a
development,
skill,
talent
and
skilling
is
a
biggest
challenge
from
here
on
in
thank.
H
Thank
you
too
much.
Convener
yeah
Chris
is
very
helpfully
way
than
in
some
of
the
questions.
I
was
what
they
asked,
which
is
what
are
the
opportunities
that
you
could
see
being
replicated?
Of
course
it
across
the
economy
and
what
were
the
challenges
be
and
actually
trying
to
select
these
key
growth
areas
and
replicating
them?
So
you've
touched
upon
about
what
about
other
panel
members.
Where
are
the
opportunities
in
your
sector
that
could
benefit
the
Scottish
economy?
I.
E
In
part,
it's
it's.
This
is
a
direct
answer
to
your
question,
but
to
start
off,
I
just
wanted
to
say
a
few
little
more
background
things
about
e-commerce
there's.
This
people
have
already
mentioned
that
the
topic.
If,
although
those
around
the
table
were
asked,
what
are
the
top
20
or
top
top
50
ecommerce
businesses
in
Scotland
I
think
everybody
would
probably
have
a
question
mark.
They
wouldn't
really
know
what,
though,
what
they
stopped
ecommerce
businesses
were.
You
know
companies
that
trade
online
and
sell
products
and
services
through
through
the
internet.
E
That's
in
common
usage
within
within
the
the
Scottish
business
community
may
be
to
the
same
extent,
I
just
a
few
minutes
ago
looked
on
adds
una,
which
is
a
website
that
pulls
together
all
the
jobs
that
are
available
across
all
sites
within
the
UK
and
just
within
London.
As
of
six
minutes
ago,
there
were
three
thousand
one
hundred
hundred
and
twenty
six
ecommerce
jobs
available
in
London
and
for
the
whole
of
Scotland.
There
were
one
hundred
and
fourteen,
and
that
in
itself
speaks.
You
know
some
interesting
statistics
about.
E
E
I'm,
a
long
time
ago,
I
used
to
be
a
university
lecturer
and
I'm
sort
of
really
embarrassed
that
for
something
that
is
as
technically
specialized
as
e-commerce,
which
you,
which
is
a
very
distinct
subject,
ecommerce
web
design
is
different.
Web
design,
econ
Marketing,
is
different
to
digital
marketing.
It's
a
very
specific
topic,
as
of
as
of
today,
to
the
best
of
my
knowledge,
there
isn't
a
single
college
or
a
single
university
anywhere
in
Scotland.
That
runs
a
dedicated
course
on
e-commerce
and
that
I
find
really
really
surprising.
E
We've
we've
had
we've
been
advertising
jobs
in
my
own
company
to
recruit
engineers
within
the
area
of
e-commerce
and
their
hens
teeth
you,
you
cannot
find
them.
You
cannot
recruit
them.
There
is
an
absolute
dearth
of
training,
skills,
knowledge,
expertise
here
and
I
I.
Think.
If
there's,
if
there's
one
thing
that
we
need
to
focus
on,
then
it's
then
it
then
it's
getting
these
skills,
and
it's
not
just
specialist
companies
like
us.
E
These
SMEs
lots
of
small
SMEs
can
take
and
very
quickly
and
immediately
as
I
think
MML
mentioned,
can
take
advantage
of
e-commerce
and
sell
on
a
global
market
if
they
knew
what
if
they
could
get
the
people
to
get
the
advice
to
have
the
skills
to
be
able
to
be
able
to
create
wealth,
exports
jobs,
but
it's
difficult
to
know
how
to
get
started,
and
actually
it
all
comes
back
to
a
lack
of
skills
and
emile
mentioned
they
this
this.
This
fledgling
organization
called
the
institute
of
e-commerce.
It
has
there's
no
funding
and
support.
E
It's
got
the
backing
of
the
scottish
chambers
of
commerce,
the
backing
of
a
scotland
food
and
drink
the
backing
of
scotland
is
but
these
and
and
about
20
companies.
But
this
is
all
a
token
gesture.
Unless
we
can
mobilize
a
group
support
to
say:
okay,
guys,
let's
let's
try
and
do
something
about
it,
skill.
E
E
I
F
To
mention
from
the
evidence
already
provided
in
this
session,
a
lot
of
the
underpinning
commonality
is
around
data
analytics
data
science,
and
that
is
a
lot
of
companies.
We
talk
about
T,
V,
squared
as
analytics
company.
Ecommerce
is
driven
to
a
large
extent
by
data
analytics
FinTech
financial
services.
It's
a
it's
a
huge
part
of
it.
So
when
you're
talking
about
potential
skills,
shortages,
I
think
that
is
one
which
has
a
global
skill
shortage.
F
I'd
like
to
think
that
the
work
that
we're
doing
at
the
date
lab
is
trying
to
resolve
that
in
some
way,
and
just
to
give
one
example,
our
master's
program
across
11
Scottish
universities
has
grown
from
40
to
160
within
a
few
a
few
years
and
there's
no
difficulty
in
filling
those
places.
The
University
of
Edinburgh
has
one
of
the
most.
You
know
world's
leading
informatics
departments.
This
one
we
should
be
very
proud
of
providing
people
for
the
world
and
I
think
when
it
comes
to
economic
growth
in
the
future
data
analytics
communal
to
that.
F
F
Think
is
a
very
good
position,
not
because
not
least
because
of
University
of
Edinburgh,
but
also
because
of
our
universities
and
because
of
developments
that
SES
have
been
doing
and
trying
boost
both
cybersecurity,
but
also
then
data
analytics
of
college
level
as
well
to
to
meet
that
skill
shortage.
We
can
rely.
We
can't
just
rely
on
universities
when
you
also
need
to
be
getting
people
from
school
and
College
to
be
doing
the
broad
base
of
data
level,
jobs
of
data
management
and
so
I
think
model
apprenticeship
and
data
analytics
is
very
important
and
I.
J
F
I
think
I
think
it
needs
starts
very
early,
so
you'll
see
I,
think
from
previous
Royal
Society
reports
around
computing
within
schools
that
the
UK
was
was
behind
and
I
know,
there's
been
a
drop
in
computing
teachers
as
well,
so
I
think
the
avenues
be
investment
first
of
all
computing
from
primary
school
upwards,
but
also
statistics
so
understand
and
maths.
So
so
those
are
some
key
areas,
but
the
ones
also
focus
too
much
on
data
analytics,
of
course,
I
think
is
very
important.
A
B
To
add
to
the
skill
piece,
because
we're
talking
about
how
do
we
attract
new
talent
in
terms
of
whether
that's
working
with
schools
and
universities,
particularly
schools,
actually
and
I,
know?
There
are
several
examples
of
where
we're
creating
code
clubs?
Are
we
trying
to
get
more
people
into
those
particular
areas
quicker?
But
actually
it's
also.
We
have
a
strong
work
force
here
already
it's.
How
do
we
work
with
those
people
to
redeploy
them
upskill
them
and
also
help
them
actually
move
into
roles
where
today,
they're,
probably
unknown?
B
I
just
wanted
to
make
a
couple
of
points
fundamentally
and
I.
Think
Chris
raised
a
ungrounded,
its
no
a
customer
driven,
marque
and
actually
I
think
with
particularly
FinTech
providing
more
choices,
a
healthy
one,
but
actually
also
means
from
an
organization
perspective,
whether
those
are
large
existing
organizations
or
new
ones
is
unless
you've
got
customer
at
the
heart
of
that,
it's
not
a
sustainable
model
or
already
seen
example
strong
examples
of
where
people
are
collaborating
again.
B
It's
a
simple
strategy:
I
personally
believe
collaboration
and
partnership,
whether
that's
on
skills,
talent,
startups
people
moving
into
Scotland,
is
absolutely
critical
for
how
we
move
forward
and
then.
Thirdly,
those
are
challenging
how
we
work
in
terms
of
whether
we're
agile,
innovative
and
also
whether
we're
fast
enough
so
I.
Think
in
terms
of
some
of
those
challenges
are
global
they're
not
unique
here,
but
there
is
a
very
clear
and
strong
targeted
focus,
I
think
on
two
or
three
areas
that
we
in
Scotland
have
an
opportunity
to
really
harness
and
onto.
K
G
You
know
their
pension
funds
and
what
their
options
are
in
suit
and
so
forth.
So
I
can't
think
of
a
better
person
to
come
and
speak
to
than
yourself.
But
I
must
get
back
to
the
question
again.
I
can
only
speak
as
ear
for
banking
and
financial
services,
because
I'm
modeling
theatre,
we
have
great
collaboration
with
SDS.
They
probably
I,
would
speak
to
SDS
once
a
week
on
average
and
they
form
Parker
part
of
a
network.
G
We've
called
star
skills,
training
and
research,
and
that's
I'd,
say
it's
dedicated
towards
banking,
financial
services,
but
SDS
a
part
of
it,
its
gosh
Enterprise,
a
part
of
it.
Sdi.
A
part
of
it
we
work
closely
with
them
now
at
the
moment
just
know
we
have
enough
computing
science
graduates
and
digitally
skilled
people
coming
in
who
are
attracted
to
our
biggest
financial
services
brands,
and
what
I
do
really
it
does
change
with
me
with
what
Peter
you
were
saying
is.
G
The
difficulty,
of
course,
is
if
they're
being
hoovered
up,
if
you
like
by
the
large
brands,
large
successful
brands,
then
the
further
they
feel
like
the
smaller
and
enterprise
that
you
are,
the
more
difficult
it
becomes
to
coops
recruit
staff,
and
you
may
have
to
pay
if
you
like,
over
the
odds
to
do
that.
So
from
that
point
of
view,
what
we
are
doing
with
star
network
is
saying:
how
do
you
address
these
shortfalls?
We
have
11
universities,
funnily
enough,
who
are
part
of
that,
and
these
11
universities
work
hand
in
glove
with
us.
G
So
what
we're
trying
to
do
is
to
match
if
you
like,
our
anticipated
demand
going
forward
with
the
types
of
graduates
will
require,
and
we
also
have
a
an
unknown
box
which
is
Louise
with
alluding
to
is.
We
also
know
that
there's
some
stuff
that
will
happen.
Nobody
knows
of
at
the
moment
because,
as
you
were
saying
to
Chris
10
years
ago,
minecraft
and
grand
theft,
auto
couldn't
have
existed
in
the
way
that
it
does
at
the
present
moment
in
time.
So
certainly
that
had
a
banking
of
s
level
we're
getting
great
support.
There.
G
I
think
there's
still
a
lot
more,
that
we
can
do
in
fine-tuning
what
we're
doing
in
terms
of
making
sure
the
children
who
are
coming
out
of
school
are,
you
know,
work
ready
and
go
into
mentorships
if
that's
more
suitable
for
them.
Not
everybody
needs
to
go
to
university,
so
we
want
all
those
children
to
go
in
there,
but
they
need
to
have
the
right
STEM
subjects.
So,
just
to
the
point
my
colleague
on
my
left
was
saying
there
is.
G
We
need
to
be
really
pitching
and
working
with
the
schools
to
make
sure
we're
being
attractive.
The
industry
is
being
attractive
to
to
children
who
want
to
aspire
to
move
into
financial
services,
rescaling
I'm
totally
with
you
on
that
one,
the
rate
the
world
is
changing
at.
So
in
my
40
years,
when
I
started,
there
were
no
mobile
telephones.
There
were
no
desktop
PCs.
If
you
wanted
something
tight,
you
went
to
take
people
and
asked
very
very
nicely,
and
the
chief
Davis
might
take
your
dictaphone
team.
G
So
if
I
think
of
the
change
I've
gone
through
and
the
adaptations
I've
had
to
be
made
had
to
me,
probably
I've
had
maybe
a
stencil
but
I'm
still
on
good
old-fashioned
banking
in
their
first
man,
but
I've
probably
had
four
careers
and
that's
at
the
piece
that
was
very
much
slower,
so
I
think
so
I
think
going
forward.
I
agree
with
what
everyone's
saying
there,
but
certainly
from
a
banking
and
fs
point
of
view
Kezia.
F
The
question
you
answered
around
persistence
of
a
digital
skills
gap,
I,
think
partially
there's
just
global
growth
in
digital
jobs
and,
as
I
mentioned
before,
universe
read
in
Braille
other
universities
providing
people
for
the
world
not
just
not
just
for
Scotland
I,
think
it's
some
good
things
are
going
on
here.
I
think
coke
lands
a
good
example
of
for
both
lifelong
learning,
but
also
different
routes.
I
think
we
have
to
do
more
in
keeping
people
here
and
I
think
that's
partially
selling
Scotland.
F
It's
quite
important,
I
think
lifelong
learning,
just
to
reiterate
that
the
majority
of
people
who
are
working
20
years
from
now
working
now
so
one
of
the
the
key
skills
for
the
future
is
being
able
to
be
adaptable
and
relearn.
So
we
need
to
have
an
infrastructure
that
enables
people
to
keep
on
learning.
The
skills
are
required,
in
particular
in
technology
and
I.
Think
don't
think
we
do
not
not
isn't
this
not
the
same
ways.
F
It's
developed,
the
younger
levels,
I
think
the
universities
are
changing,
so
they
could
provide
more
in
work
training
and
you
need
to
be
able
to
offer
a
broad
different
range.
So
people
are
time
poor
can
access
training
either
online
or
elsewhere,
but
also
people
who
are
financially
poorer.
How
can
they
access
training,
10-15
years
down
the
line
and
I?
F
Think
things
like
the
digital
growth
fund
is
an
opportunity
there
and
how
I
could
be
targeted
people
in
work
and
then
the
final
thing
you
mentioned
when
brexit
figure
is
a
risk,
because
the
still
around
50
percent
I
think
of
the
people
on
our
courses
occurring
from
Europe
and
so
there's
a
potential
risk
that
we
lose
those.
But
it
just
refocuses
us
on
making
sure
that
from
every
university
to
every
school
for
every
college
there's
an
opportunity
people
to
retrain
quickly.
So
we
need
to
to
manage
that
risk
by
reinvesting
in
the
pipeline
towards
university.
C
Today,
to
echo
and
develop
my
my
colleagues
comments,
so
I
think
the
the
statement
I
keep
reflecting
on
is
is
the
one
that
you
know.
We've
never
lived
in
a
period
of
change
as
fast
as
the
one
we
live
in
now,
and
it
will
never
be
this
slow
again.
You
know
so
everything
you've
experienced
in
the
past
40
years
suddenly
starts
to
compress
and
can
place
into
the
next
five
years
so
and
and
Casey.
To
answer
your
question
directly,
there
is
an
unlimited
appetite
for
skills,
the
kind
of
skills
we
were
talking
about.
C
So
we
can
never
do
enough
because
as
much
as
we
do
we'll
just
only
attract
more
people,
even
then
we'll
complain
and
moan
a
bit
there.
Oh
goodness
me
there's
not
enough
people,
but
that's
fine,
because
growth
will
be
going
through
the
roof
and
we'll
have
an
you
know,
an
ever
more
unsustainable
appetite
for
more
great
people
if
we
skill
them
in
the
right
way
and
that
to
your
point
is
is-
is
severely
working,
you
know
we're
not
from
the
earliest
age.
C
We
have
not
building
a
a
confidence
and
a
belief
in
other
young
people
that
this
is
something
for
them.
If
I
hear
once
more
up
and
Dundy
or
it's
alright
for
you
guys
in
the
games
and
digital
industries
and
Dundee,
what
were
the
rest
of
us
have
been
left
behind
in
manufacture
mantle
is
your
life
behind?
If
you
think
that
manufacturing
in
the
way
is
was
30
years
ago,
is
ever
gonna
come
back?
You
know.
If
you
understand,
anyone
in
my
view
is
capable
of
understanding,
greevey
ations
of
the
skills
that
we're
talking
about.
C
You
lose
no
reason
to
leave
anyone
behind
and
in
our
workforce,
but
if
we
continue
to
believe
that
training
for
an
old
economy
is
the
right
way
to
go,
will
consign
ourselves
to
you
know
to
the
back
waters
of
economic
history,
and
so
so,
with
that
focus
of
going
forward.
I
think
there
was
a
brilliant
point
made
by
joshua
around
the
combination
of
creativity
in
digital
other
countries,
and
we
can
all
name
them.
Can
hot
house
young
people
to
be
the
best
mathematicians
that
they
can
possibly
be
actually
in
a
very
narrow
field?
C
Brilliant
data
analysts,
but
the
kind
of
minds
that
we
traditionally
have
been
brilliant
and
developer
in
scotland,
the
latter
of
multicultural
that
are
reaching
across
all
sorts
of
divides
brings
the
kind
of
unique
nature
to
scotland
that
seen
us
lead
the
way
in
things
like
video
games,
design
and
music
and
and
film
and
exporting
some
of
that
talent
outside.
So
so
we
need
must
continue
to
do
that
and
to
your
final
point
and
the
impact
of
blake's
it.
C
You
know
the
confusing
thing
to
me
over
the
past
few
years
has
been
an
obsession
with
some
kind
of
isolationism
or
even
an
obsession
with
Europe,
because
it's
kind
of
irrelevant
to
us
know
a
European
culture
or
UK
its
global.
You
know
we.
We
need
to
make
sure
that
there's
access
to
every
market
we
can
possibly
access
to
in
and
I
suppose,
if
there's
an
opportunity
in
the
situation
we'll
find
ourselves
and
know,
it's
making
sure
that
we
set
ourselves
up
for
success
that
we're
incredibly
attractive
both
inwardly
and
outwardly
and
I.
C
Think
you
know
that
kind
of
migration
cycle
I.
You
know
we
don't
want
to
keep
everybody
yourselves,
because
if
we
keep
everybody
to
ourselves
I,
you
know
who
will
know
what
we're
doing
and
who
will
understand
what
to
bring
back
to
Scotland
and
at
the
same
time,
if
we
set
a
flag
and
set
of
stars
being
the
police,
you
come
if
you
want
to
develop
creative
and
technically
advanced
businesses
and
you'll
find
the
bass
young
talent
coming
through
and
you'll
find
a
home
that
welcomes
you
to
do.
C
That
will
do
brilliantly
pretty
simple
and
we
need
to
take
up
not
just
a
10
year
but
sort
of
30
40
50
year
via
and
make
those
changes
now
and
with
not
we're
playing
at
it.
You
know
we,
we,
we
sort
of
you
know,
meet
great
noises
and
actually
great
strategic
insights
into
things
like
clicking
for
excellence.
Then
we
under
fund
it
and
we
wondered
why
it
doesn't
deliver
it's
not
because
the
strategy
was
wrong.
It's
because
the
implementation
was
atrocious,
I'm
and
that's
what
we
need
to
address
and
address
it
with
the
reality
of.
B
Just
wanted
to
add
four
point
to
that,
and
actually
two
of
them
Chris
is
covered,
I
think
you're
right.
We
also
need
to
talk
about
what
does
digital
skill
gap
actually
really
mean
anymore,
because
even
that's
trained
in
today's
world
we've
talked
about
how
you
actually
even
financial
services.
We
work
really
closely
know
with
the
creative
industries.
We
wouldn't
have
done
that
previously,
so
I
think
we've
actually
got
to
talk
about
this
in
a
different
way.
What
do
we
actually
mean?
B
What
types
of
skills
we
then
talk
about
the
technology
and
actually
we're
missing
a
whole
section
around,
and
you
touched
on
it
crease
around
that
human
interface
into
technology?
How
do
we
create
the
right
designs
for
customers
to
adapt
and
adopt
quickly
and
also
growing
confidence
and
security
in
some
of
these
new
changes?
How
do
you
then
maintain
and
operationalize?
Some
of
these
components
so
I
think
there's
a
real
opportunity
for
us
to
actually
break
down.
What
do
we
mean
by
digital
skills
gap?
So?
B
Firstly,
people
understand
it
and
then
create
a
targeted
strategy
to
then
constantly
deliver
against
it.
I
think
Chris
is
bang-on.
It's
not
a
quick
silver
bullet
around.
This
is
suddenly
gonna
shift.
This
is
a
leadership
challenge
and
we
need
to
continue
to
drive
against
that
strategy.
My
last
point
is:
is
around
and
again
Chris
touched
on
a
confidence,
belief
and
amber.
We
need
to
help
people
adapt
and
with
confidence
and
with
real
ambition
against
those
targeted
strategies,
and
that
means
it's
consistent
and
we've
got
to
be
persistent
about
it.
D
Yes,
so
from
from
my
point,
if
you
ecommerce,
probably
differs
slightly
to
some
of
the
other
industries
around
the
table,
because
there
is
a
lack
of
kind
of
public
awareness
in
it,
there
are
some
fantastic
case.
Studies
around
data,
some
fast
fantastic
case
studies,
certainly
around
the
computer
games,
industry
within
Scotland
and
also
FinTech.
D
But
where
are
the
large
e-commerce
companies
now
they
exist?
There
are
companies
doing
amazing
things
over
a
hundred
million
turnover
retailers.
There
are
small
little
retailers
growing
at
two
hundred
three
hundred
percent
a
year,
but
we
don't
hear
about
them.
There's
no
one
talking
about
them.
Maybe
it's
because
e-commerce
is
is
not
a
kind
of
hot
topic
in
in
the
same
way
or
well.
D
Maybe
we,
you
know,
we
just
don't
like
those
those
particular
industries
that
they
operate
in,
but
I
think
the
first
step
in
how
to
make
e-commerce
better,
certainly
is
to
raise
the
awareness
and
then,
of
course
there
is.
There
is
training
and
I.
Think
community
plays
also
a
huge
role
in
how
we
move
forward
as
a
kind
of
e-commerce
country,
because
if
you
go
down
to
London,
there
are
meetups.
There
are
little
groups
of
people
that
come
together
and
just
talk
about
e-commerce.
D
They
just
go
hey,
so
we
tried
this
thing
and
we
got
an
improved
conversion
rate
of
9.1
percent
and
it
cost
us
a
very
small
amount
money.
Why
don't
you
go
away
and
try
that
for
your
money,
your
business
and
that's
how
you
begin
to
build
on
the
skills
that
that
need
to
be
put
in
place
by
training?
You
need
a
kind
of
base
level
of
skills,
but
the
community
helps
that
and
I.
Think
part
of
the
reason
why
computer
games
is
so
successful
is
there
is
that
community?
D
D
95%
of
all
purchases
will
involve
some
form
of
e-commerce.
Now
that
doesn't
necessarily
mean
that
everyone's
going
to
be
buying
online,
but
there
is
a
part
in
that
consumer
journey
that
has
an
interaction
online
through
some
form
of
e-commerce,
marketing
and
I.
Think
it's
important
that
that
we
build
on
that
and
then
we're
aware
of
it
in
terms
of
how
much
impact
brexit
is
going
to
have
who
knows,
but
the
there
are
a
number
of
countries
who
are
we're
already
doing
big
amounts
of
trade
with
the
UK
right.
D
There
is
doing
big
amounts
of
trade
with
online.
If
you
look
at
the
the
US
nine
percent
of
US,
consumers
are
happy
to
buy
UK
products
from
UK
websites
and
six
percent
of
Chinese
consumers
reminder.
Chinese
market
is
five
times
larger.
The
Chinese
e-commerce
market
is
five
times
larger
than
that
the
UK
so
they're
all
there.
D
Already
these
consumers
out
there
that
I'm,
aware
I
was
made
aware
by
Peter
of
a
company
who
are
already
selling
like
85
percent
of
their
business,
goes
to
mainland
China
in
huge
volumes
and
they're
growing
it
200
percent
a
year.
They
can't
keep
up.
No
one
knows
about
these
companies,
but
it's
happening,
and
we
just
need
to
champion
that
and
build
on
on.
What's
there
already
thank.
E
E
There
are
no
courses
on
it
and
considering
the
size
of
it,
because
if
you
look
at
that,
the
numbers
ecommerce
is
very
considerably
bigger
than
FinTech,
and
yet
you
know
there
isn't
there
isn't
a
single,
a
single
course
out
there
out
there
on
on
the
subject,
and
maybe
it's
because
it's
it's
not
cool
I
mean
maybe
maybe
my
challenge
to
the
politicians
around
the
table
is
when
did
you
last
talk
about
e-commerce?
You
know
asking
each
of
you
ask
you
ask
yourself
that
question:
when
did
you
actually
last
bring
up
a
question
about
it?
E
I
mean
we
had
in
the
I
was
invited
long
to
the
business
in
the
parliament
events
towards
the
end
of
last
year.
We
actually
had
a
session
on
it,
and
I
am
its.
That
was
a
fantastic
activity
by
by
the
way
it
gave
me
good
insight
into
what
goes
on
here
in
the
in
the
Scottish
Parliament,
but
but
it
was
really
interesting
that
the
politician
said
this
isn't
really
a
subject
that
we've
spoken
about.
We
don't
talk
about
it.
E
When
do
you
know
how
often
did
did
people
mention
it
and
for
something
that
it's
rather
unfortunate,
that
ml
and
I
both
from
the
e-commerce
industry,
we
were
both
guys
half
half
the
businesses
that
are
ecommerce.
Businesses
in
Scotland
are
led
by
women.
You
know
it's,
it's
it's
a
very
sort
of
Equal
Opportunities
kind
of
business,
because
because
people
who
run
it
can
have
a
lot
of
flexibility
if
they're
setting
up
a
a
fashion,
business
or
something
whatever.
E
H
You've
mentioned
twice
of
its
Scottish
Enterprise
I'm,
looking
at
Scottish,
Enterprise
website,
running
workshops
and
practical
steps
to
grow
your
business.
You,
your
mouse
benefits
of
e-commerce,
boost
your
e-commerce
skills,
best
practice,
cadence,
selecting
target
in
your
markets,
culture
and
language
considerations
and
is
a
whole
host
of
things
that
you
can
do
and
you've
seen.
E
All
of
those
courses
are
run
either
by
by
staff
at
Scottish,
Enterprise
or
by
a
teaching
company.
Nobody
actually
from
the
industry
is
involved
in
provision
of
those
of
those
courses.
You
know
this
is
like.
If
you,
if
you're
going
to
be
taught
heart
surgery,
would
you
want
to
be
taught
by
a
teaching
company
or
by
somebody
who
actually
done
done
surgery
in
in
the
subject.
E
I/O,
if
you
look
at,
if
you
look
at
all
the
events
that
are
run
run
by
by
by
Scottish
Enterprise,
there
are
a
number
of
events
that
mention
mention
e-commerce,
but
for
things
like
international
trade,
it's
largely
that
the
culture
is
one
of
going
overseas,
going
on
Iran,
Iran
Iran
it
on
a
trade.
If
event,
you
know
it's
different
different
parts
of
the
world,
though
those
tend
to
dominate
the
events
run
run
by
the
agencies.
Where
is
so
much
of
modern
trade
is
just
done
a
click
of
a
button.
E
A
There's
certainly
a
good
plug
for
e-commerce,
but
it
may
be
that
the
the
there
was
involved
need
to
try
and
engage
a
bit
more
of
a
Scottish
Enterprise.
To
put
that
message
across,
and
of
course,
part
of
you
being
here
is
in
fact
bringing
that
that
message
in
these
comments
to
us
here,
I'd
like
to
move
on
now
to
to
John
Mason
thanks.
L
Very
much
convener
and
actually
dr.
Moore
forth
a
touched
on
some
of
this,
because
I
mean
we're
interested
in
business
growth,
but
we're
also
interested
in
inclusive
growth
and
so
I'm
interested
in
your
thoughts
as
to
how
your
sectors
are
a
providing
that
dealing
with
that
or
whether
that's
not
an
issue.
That's
really
on
your
agenda,
I
mean
the
obvious
one
is
that
women
have
just
been
mentioned
here.
I
mean
they
clearly
amongst
the
witnesses
today
it
is
largely
male-dominated.
Frankly,
amongst
the
committee,
it's
also
male-dominated
a
lot.
F
From
the
data
analytics
community,
it
still
is
this
still
mostly
male-dominated
computing,
more
broadly
I,
just
quickly
mention
of
dates,
lab
is
actually
the
CEO
is
Jillian
Doherty
and
there's
a
gender
balance
across
the
organization
there.
When
we
think
about
future
jobs,
there
is
a
risk
that
those
who
potentially
don't
benefit
from
data
science
or
automation
and
that
sort
of
thing,
those
from
poorer
backgrounds,
different
socioeconomic
backgrounds
and
also
the
roles
they're
typically
likely
to
be
replaced,
are
going
to
be
very
most
ly
filled
with
women
as
well,
so
I
think.
There's
a
challenge.
F
I
think
that
there's
a
lot
of
opportunity
as
well.
So
when
we
talk
about
automation,
as
always,
this
risk
of
ever
gain
quite
negative,
and
rightly
so,
there's
risk
some
people
there's
actually
a
huge
growth
of
jobs
as
well,
and
some
of
those
we
don't
know
what
they
are.
Yet.
What
we
do
know
is
we
need
to
help
those
people
they
were
in
the
socioeconomic
backgrounds,
that
least
likely
to
be
able
to
fill
those
hot
new,
high-skilled
jobs.
F
So
the
way
that
we're
thinking
about
it,
both
within
the
Edinburgh
City
region,
deal
discussions,
but
also
at
the
data
lab
and
also
our
partners
in
SC
and
elsewhere.
Sds
in
particular,
is
making
sure
that
we
get
people
at
an
earlier
stage
is
already
pre.
We
mentioned
into
those
creative
technical.
We
get
those
skills
early
on
and
also
again,
if
you
are
potentially
at
risk
of,
maybe
technology
related
redundancy.
F
How
do
you
very
quickly
identify
that
risk,
and
how
do
you
put
them
through
a
lifelong
training
program,
which
means
they
can
take
the
opportunity
to
take
advantage
of
those
opportunities
are
coming
up
as
well.
We
need
to
make
sure
that
we
continue
to
best
in
Veneto
technological
innovation,
but
also
matched
on
investment
in
making
sure
that
the
people
who
get
into
those
roles
are
coming
from
the
broad
range
of
backgrounds.
B
So
probably
should
comment
on
this
as
a
technology
leader,
who's,
female,
but
I
think
we
need
to
be
really
clear
about
what
we
mean
by
this
again,
so
I
think
most
organizations
have
targeted
strategies
to
get
more
representation
in
its
broadest
sense,
in
senior
levels
in
organisations
with
my
Royal
Bank
of
Scotland
hurtin,
we're
no
different.
We've
got
stretching
targets
in
the
right
and
new
roles.
We're
doing
well
against
those
targets
were
already
at
37%
in
senior
positions
with
my
FinTech
hat
on
and
what
we're
seeing
more
of
is.
B
Actually
a
couple
of
things
is
around:
how
do
we
engage
schools
and
we're
doing
specific
areas?
I
see
many
different
ones.
Joshua
has
commented
on
a
couple
of
them
where
were
actually
opening
up
what
those
new
skills
look
like,
whether
that's
through
technology
type
of
courses,
whether
that's
through
design,
creative
industries
or
what
that
may
look
like
so
I-
think
there's
more
targeted
strategies
now,
I
think
we
need
to
do
more.
I
think.
L
B
Know
whether
it's
harder
or
easier
I
think
the
challenges
are
different
for
larger
organizations
and
smaller
ones.
I
think
we
need
to
talk
about
case.
That
is
more.
We
need
to
talk
about
stories
more,
whether
that's
in
smaller
organizations,
some
of
the
stuff
Joshua's
talked
about
I.
Think
some
people
would
probably
argue
some
of
those
are
best
kept
secrets
to
to
want
of
a
better
degree,
I
think
in
organizations
we're
seen
in
my
organization
we're
seeing
more
and
more
of
that
so
I,
don't
know
whether
it's
harder,
I
think
it's
different
challenges.
C
My
my
comment
would
really
be
around
I
in
terms
of
diversity.
Challenge
I'd
reflect
back
on
a
point
I
made
earlier
about
an
unlimited
appetite
for
talent
I.
It
would
seem
to
be
pure
madness
if
one
is
looking
to
only
be
able
to
take
a
certain
percentage
of
a
population
entire
industry
to
in
any
way,
either
by
design
or
by
accident,
artificially
restrict
or
restrict
I
the
the
pool
in
which
you're
recruiting
from
so.
If
there's
a
hundred
percent,
the
population
and
I
can
only
take
five
percent
of
the
men.
C
I
want
five
percent
of
everybody,
I,
no
matter
where
they
come
from
background
of
sexual
orientation
or
otherwise.
It's
kind
of
you
know
it's
missed
opportunity
along
the
way
another
industry
was
was.
It
was
very
interesting
and
very
clearly
and
talking
about
the
computer
games
industry.
We
came
to
a
place
where,
in
the
1980s
home
computing
was
principally
the
domain
of
young
males
below
the
age
of
16
and
and
the
industry.
C
Now,
there's
a
lot
of
senior
people
like
me,
who
were
exactly
of
that
that
type
ie
an
absolute
geek
when
I
was
a
small
child
I'm
and
we've
struggled
with
it,
because
you
know,
we've
we've
been
the
leaders
of
the
pack,
and
you
know
it's
gone
and
we've
heard
in
this
interest
and
microcosm
I'm
an
industry
that
looks
very
you
know
very
much
populated
by
the
audience
and
with
what
really
hard
over
again
the
past
decade,
as
we've
realized
very
quickly.
That
50%
of
our
audience
is
female,
that
everyone
plays
computer
games.
C
If
we
will
meet
games
appeal
to
everyone,
we
need
a
representation
as
wide
as
we
possibly
can
I'm
so
that
we
we
want
pretty
hard,
though
making
sure
the
environment
works
for
everybody.
You
know
with
with
us.
You
know
the
classics
of
stereotypes
of
the
early
days
where
it
was
all
about
I.
You
know
pinball
machines
and
table
tennis
tables
and
everything.
Sometimes
other
things
are
important
to
people
in
terms
of
work,
life
balance
and
those
things
and
I've
seen
a
real
transition
or
industry,
and
that's
going
to
continue.
C
Otherwise,
we
will
miss
some
of
the
greatest
talents
that
industry
could
ever
see
because
we
don't
create
an
environment
that
feels
welcoming
to
them.
So
so
you
know
all
my
colleagues
in
the
industry
I
think
we
all
agree
and
it's
very
high
on
the
agenda.
If
you
go,
if
you
went
to
game
developer
conference
last
week,
again
inclusivity
and
encouragement
and
diversity,
and
not
just
as
a
token
really
because
it
absolutely
impacts
on
what
we
do
every
single
day.
So
you
know
I
would
hope
that
we've
seen
as
an
industry,
that's
open
to
anyone.
I.
J
Tied
in
to
the
increasing
of
kind
of
idea,
obviously
trying
to
get
more
women
involved
in
your
sectors
try
to
get
perhaps
opportunities
for
disabled
people,
but
also
the
regional
diversity.
I
represent
the
Highlands
and
Islands,
and
one
of
the
big
barriers
to
e-commerce-
and
you
know
doing
more
ordering
online
and
developing
online
is
the
infrastructure
they're
simply
not
there,
and
the
broadband
infrastructure
I
was
wondering
how
that
can
play
a
role.
C
Yeah
I
mean
the
broadband
is
a
national
disgrace.
You
know,
I
would
call
in
a
committee
or
as
happily
coho
BT
Openreach
as
a
national,
disgrace,
I'm,
you
know
they
do
not
deliver
what
they
say.
They're
gonna
do
when
they
say
they're
going
to
deliver
it
and
I'm
sure
they
would
come
here
and
argue
that
I'm
completely
wrong,
but
we
should
not
in
2018,
be
able
to
listen
to
the
statement
you
just
made
that
they'd
have
poor
bandwidth
Elyas
in
scotland
anywhere
in
scotland.
C
My
understanding
is
one
of
the
bright
whites
and
shining
whites
of
the
last
economic
downturn
was
that
for
the
first
time
in
our
immediate
history
there
was
not
a
mini
highland
clearance,
and
people
attribute
that
down
to
the
fact
that
some
communities
and
local
communities
had
great
broadband,
so
people
were
able
to
contribute,
and
actually
some
made
a
positive
choice.
This
was
a
time
to
get
out
of.
You
know
mean
population
centres
and
everyone
that
I
know
that's
in
my
kind
of
industry.
C
The
first
thing
they
look
at
is:
what's
the
speed
in
the
property
that
I'm
going
to
look
at?
What's
the
speed
in
the
area
and
their
areas,
they
simply
will
not
move
to
because
of
that
I'm
we've
talked
about
addressing
we
are
today.
I
know
the
Scottish
Government
has
Putin
police
extra
funding,
but
it's
still
not
enough.
You
know
I
made
a
measurement.
Measured
megabits
isn't
enough,
you
know
it's
Giga
bits
of
infrastructure.
True
infrastructure
need
to
be
everywhere.
C
C
G
Just
just
let's
say
somebody
who
actually
grew
up
in
Dingwall
in
Rauscher
I
really
deeply
understand
the
highlights
of
Highlands
I'm
passionate
about
the
highlands
and
I
totally
agree
with
yourself.
Chris,
though
there's
some
incredibly
talented,
able
people
that
are
up
there
who
choose
to
live
up
there
because
a
fantastic
quality
of
life,
you
tend
to
be
creative,
if
you
don't
have
the
powerful
broadband,
certainly
from
a
finitary
point
of
view,
you're
not
at
the
Reese's,
so
I
think
it's
something
you
know
if
I
felt
a
sense
of
urgency
about
anything
it's
about.
G
A
C
I
did
I
was
heading
cause.
It's
right
in
my
hobby
horse
I
mean
you
know
as
a
team
of
entrepreneurial
Scotland.
You
know
our
ambition
is
to
meet
Scotland
the
most
entrepreneurial
society
in
the
world,
and
we
truly
believe
that
can
be
done
and
that's
a
science
society
in
which
no-one
sees
a
barrier
to
pursuing
a
great
idea.
Sometimes
it
will
be
business.
Sometimes
it
will
be
a
good
idea
in
teaching.
It
doesn't
matter
it's
that,
so
that
mindset
of
we
can
do
this
and
let's
get
on
with
it.
C
I'm
I
I
think
the
biggest
barrier
is
still
some
form
of
of
peer
I
support.
You
know,
even
in
the
most
entrepreneurial
societies
in
the
world
that
we
look
at
people
do
things
because
they
know
the
person
next
door
stand
up.
Somebody
in
the
family's
done
it
and
they
need
that
reinforcement
and
when
you've
got
a
gap
of
no
exemplars
to
follow
you.
There
is
a
place
for
organizations
like
Scottish,
an
enterprise
like
business
gateway,
white
local
councils,
but
generally
the
business
community
to
get
involved
and
spread
that
message
through
the
early
stage.
C
Organizations
like
young
enterprise,
it's
etc
I,
and
we
just
need
to
keep
playing
that
message
through.
The
great
news
is
from
the
1990s.
When
I
when
I
started
out,
there
was
a
bit
of
entrepreneurial
support
today,
there's
fantastic
entrepreneurial
support
networks
for
people
wanting
to
start
businesses.
There
are
great
2nd
3rd
4th
generation,
business
angels
and
entrepreneurs
that
are
there
to
help
to
provide
capital
and
and
I
would
challenge
people
to
who
see
other
it's
very
difficult.
C
It
should
be
quite
difficult
to
raise
money
and
to
move
things
from
easy,
but
there's
no
barriers
to
anymore.
It's
there
I'm,
the
the
biggest
challenge
for
us
is
making
sure
that
people
can
find
the
roots
to
do
that.
There's
variability
within
the
Scottish
Enterprise
Network.
Undoubtedly,
there
are
unbelievably
brilliant
people
in
there
who
have
supported
our
businesses
over
the
last
20
years.
So
we
know
who
to
go
to
and
we
knew
who
the
who
the
e
players
are
and
there's.
C
Unfortunately,
people
that
don't
quite
reach
that
mark
that
sometimes
businesses
fall
into
a
trap
of
being
passed
from
pillar
to
post,
with
no
real
strong
advice
to
take
an
earlier
point.
You
know
you
need
people
who
are
practitioners,
not
just
people
who
are
lifetime.
Scottish
Enterprise
employees
and
the
good
people
would
do
it
in
Scottish.
Enterprise
know
how
to
can
connect
those
dots.
The
bigger
challenge
for
Scotland,
know,
I
think
we're
starting
to
get
beyond
the
startup
challenge.
Where
the
metrics
tell
us
a
different
we're,
not
we'd
really
out.
I'm
is
skilling
up.
C
You
know
and
some
great
insights
we'd
be
had
from
things
like
Skyscanner
of
we.
You
know
the
I'm,
the
great
a
Silicon
Valley
Welsh
board
and
Silicon
Valley
entrepreneur,
Michael
Moritz,
who
ended
up
as
a
mediate
investor
than
Skyscanner,
went
within
two
years
from
saying:
I'll,
never
really
invest
in
teams
outside
Silicon
Valley,
because
they're
on
my
doorstep,
and
we
know
they're
the
best
people
in
the
world
to
under
Gareth
Williams
leadership.
C
Skyscanner
is
probably
the
best
team
I've
ever
seen
in
a
digital,
startup
and
I
can't
wait
to
find
more
opportunities
where
they've
come
from.
You
know
so
the
world
suddenly
is
starting
to
look
at
Scotland.
An
international
capital
which
didn't
is
is
looking
quite
tightly
at
it.
The
difference
between
us
and
see
the
Scandinavian
countries
who
have
similar
demographics,
but
outperform
asks
in
startups
and
co-ops,
especially
and
is
a
real
joined
up
culture
from
government
to
education,
to
the
private
sector,
who
are
promoting
things
like
you
know,
slash,
there's
a
big
massive
inward
investment
conference.
C
You
would
call
it
I'm
around
hi-tech
in
Helsinki
that
it's
just
blowing
the
roof
off
in
terms
of
bringing
opportunities
to
Finland.
We
have
some
great
success
in
Edinburgh
here
with
with
IIE
you,
which
is
driven
out
of
Hayden
but
informatics,
but
we
don't
take
it
seriously
enough.
You
really
don't
put
your
shoulder
behind
the
wheel
and
support
it
to
the
skill
that
other
countries
are
doing
I'm,
so
nice
and
infrastructure
was
there,
but
yet
again
we're
probably
not
fully
committed.
We
reach
money
into
other
things.
I've
never
gone
to
return,
fill
us
with
us.
C
A
D
Think
in
terms
of
e-commerce
startups
again
it
comes
down
to
this
level
of
awareness
and
I.
Think
if
you
have
a
country
or
even
an
area
of
Industry,
that
is
heavily
aware
of
the
opportunities
there.
Then
people
are
more
likely
to
look
into
and
look
at
those
opportunities.
I
think
the
fact
that
Scotland
is
indexed
around
30
for
a
search
term
when
other
areas
of
the
UK
are
much
much
higher,
particularly
places
which
perhaps
are
not
traditionally
thought
of.
D
As
great
traders
I
mean
what,
if
you
look
at
Scotland's
trade
history
compared
to
somewhere
like
Wales,
you
would
hope
that
Scotland
would
be
performing
much
better
in
kind
of
the
latest
trends
in
international
trade
and
I.
Think
having
that
awareness,
there
will
encourage
people
to
get
involved
much
much
more
because
it's
not
it's
not
difficult,
and
there
are
loads
of
case
studies
from
all
over.
The
UK
is
a
great
one.
D
There's
a
as
a
company
called
Victorian
plumbing
and
Victorian
plumbing
was
started
by
a
guy
I
think
it's
about
15
years
ago,
and
he
was
working
in
Tesco
stacking
shelves
and
he
wanted
to
start
a
business.
He
his
goal
was
to
buy
a
Ferrari,
that's
what
he
really
wanted
to
do.
So
he
started
importing
mobile
phone
cases
from
China
and
selling
them
on
eBay,
and
he
grew
it
to
the
point
at
which
he
could
afford
his
Ferrari
and
he
then
sold
that
biz.
D
Yes,
he
then
had
to
unfortunately
sell
his
Ferrari
to
finance
a
warehouse
so
that
he
could
import
plumbing
equipment
and-
and
you
know,
sinks
and
basins
and
things
today,
Victorian
plumbing
is
north
of
a
hundred
million
turnover
in
15
years
from
selling.
You
know
mobile
phone
parts
on
eBay
there's
there
is
a
natural
progression
if
you're
a
startup,
if
you
can
spot
an
e,
but
you
need
to
be
aware
of
losing
issues
and
and
then
you
need,
you
know
they're.
D
There
does
need
to
be
education
around
it
and
there
does
need
to
be
those
that
support
I
mean
recently.
We
ran
a
workshop
with
Scottish
edge
and
Scottish
edge.
Have
some
amazing
small
companies
startups?
You
know
pre
turnover,
startups
and
they're
all
really
interested
in
learning
how
to
do
it,
but
they
they
don't
have
access
to
that
knowledge.
Now.
D
I
know
there
is
stuff
through
Scottish,
Enterprise
I
know
there
is
stuff
through
through
business
gateway,
but
it's
not
provided
by
people
who
who
have
actually
done
it
and
and
I
don't
want
to
hate
on
business
gateway
or
Scottish
Enterprise,
because
I
do
think
they
provide
an
amazing
amazing
service.
But
one
example
is
so
I'm,
particularly
interested
in
international
commerce
and
particularly
interested
how
you
know
we
can
increase
exports,
because
just
looking
at
statistic
here,
that's
from
was
something
done
by
Boston
Consulting
Group.
D
This
is
in
any
e-commerce,
and
the
opposite
of
true
is
true
of
the
offline
economy
which
exports
ninety
pence
for
every
pound
imported,
so
we're
exporting
three
times
much
online
with
the
UK
rather
is
exporting
three
times
as
much
online
as
where
we're
importing
so
I
think
that's
a
really
important
part,
and
when
looking
at
the
Scottish
Enterprise
Scottish
Enterprise
International
example
that
the
two
two
areas
which
held
loss
of
focus
were
letters
of
credit
which
aren't
really
used
in
in
e-commerce.
Terribly
much
I've
certainly
never
used
one
and
the
other
one
was
translation.
D
Now,
if
you're,
not
a
practitioner,
the
obvious
thing
to
do,
if
you
want
to
trade
overseas,
is
to
translate
your
website
your
packaging,
your
all
these
things
you
go
with
it,
that's
obvious
that
will
increase
sales
100%.
If
anyone
in
it
practicing.
It
knows
that
often
the
inverse
is
true,
so
I
mean
there
are
a
number
of
reasons
why
people
purchase
overseas,
but
one
of
them
is
that
they
trust
UK
goods.
D
If
you
look
at
the
all
of
the
statistics
of
trade,
and
particularly
with
language
on
average,
translation
of
a
website
leads
to
about
a
two
percent
increase
in
sales.
Now,
unless
you're
turning
over
huge
amounts
of
money,
the
cost
of
those
translations
on
I'm
never
going
to
be
brought
back
to
the
company,
I
mean
what
what
do
you
have
to
turn
over
and
10
million
20
million
that
that's
hurting
startups?
D
That's
not
helping
them
and-
and
it's
just
one
example
of
how
knowing
the
right
steps
like
if
you're
a
small
company
get
your
stuff
on
Amazon,
get
your
stuff
on
eBay
immediately,
because
then
you
can
show
that
there's
a
market
for
your
product
and
it's
having
that
knowledge
and
and
just
having
the
kind
of
having
someone
say.
Look
it's
all
right!
Just
get
your
product
on
eBay
eBay
is
not
full
of
dodgy
X
fake
Rolexes
anymore,
like
just
just
go
and
put
it
on
there,
and
this
is
how
you
do
it
gives
people
confidence.
D
You
know
if
you're,
if
you're
thinking
of
starting
up
the
company
I
was
thinking
of
starting
up
the
company,
my
main
thing
is
I:
can
I
can
make
the
product
I
can
I
know
about
that?
How
do
I
sell
it
and
I?
You
know,
I,
don't
want
to
give
up
my
job
to
have
no
money
trying
to
sell
this
product.
Get
it
online
see
if
there's
a
market
for
it.
Alright,.
A
B
Sure
I'll
just
make
a
couple
of
brief
points
in
terms
of
financial
services
and
FinTech
we're
seeing
more
and
more
accelerators
whether
that
entrepreneur,
accelerators
were
also
seen
FinTech,
accelerators
thinking
from
a
Royal
Bank
of
Scotland
perspective.
We've
supported
3,000
entrepreneurs,
just
in
the
last
three
years,
where
they've
raised
around
250
million
pounds
worth
of
capital
to
support
them.
So
there's
lots
of
places
now
that
we're
seeing
within
the
industry
where
people
can
get
coaching
mentoring,
access
to
infrastructure
and
capabilities.
B
To
answer
your
specific
question
around
what
the
top
two
barriers
are,
one
of
them
I
agree
with
Chris
it's.
How
do
we
actually
help
people
understand
the
support,
the
roots
and
the
paths
beyond
startup
into
high
scale-up
and
growth
areas?
And
how
do
you
continue
that
support
through
probably
one
of
the
more
trickier
periods,
so
I
think
that's
one
of
them,
I
think
the
second
one
is
and
I
know
we're
starting
to
get
to
use
Chris's
phrase
there
shoulder
behind
this.
B
We
need
to
make
it
easier
for
those
organizations,
particularly
with
NFS,
to
be
able
to
partner
and
work
with,
and
collaborate
with
the
industry
and
I
know.
There's
lots
of
commitment
we're
working
on
a
process
in
which
we
can
help
people
through
those
supplier
procurement,
types
of
processes
that
have
traditionally
been
a
problem
for
people.
But
we
need
to
do
that
quicker
and
faster.
So
I
think
those
are
the
two
areas
and
that
we
can
actually
and
are
within
our
gift
to
actually
start
to
address.
F
F
I
think
just
backing
what
chris
said
earlier
on
when
it
comes
to
Scottish
economic
performance,
scale-up
I
think
is
perhaps
even
more
important
in
the
startups
at
a
moment,
and
the
reason
being
is
when
I
think
was
an
Esther
report.
Looked
at
job
growth,
there's
two
ways
that
a
small
country,
or
it
can
really
do
that.
One
is
where
you
have
medium
or
small
companies
grow
quite
rapidly
and
you've
seen
that
with
Skyscanner
in
various
other
companies,
and
the
other
is
where
you
attract
new
companies
potentially
base
themselves
here.
F
G
Briefly,
all
of
that
and
what
I
would
say
is
perhaps
an
early
run
on
the
board,
quick,
win,
I
think
is
actually
just
really
communicating
what
is
out
there.
It's
very
very
difficult
if
you're
a
startup,
you
know
because
we're
all
we
all
have
our
own
networks
and
connections
to
figure
out.
Where
do
we
go?
Where
do
I
go?
How
do
I
get
the
hell
I've
just
written
down
the
ones
that
I
meet
with
can
do
Scotland
entrepreneurial
spark,
entrepreneurial
Scotland,
social
investment
Scotland's
just
about
a
stand-up
50
million
pound
fund
Scottish
edge.
G
All
of
it
is
fantastic,
as
you
say,
Chris
compared
with
when
I
came
out
of
school,
it's
transformational
what's
there,
but
we
just
need
to
get
it
out
there
in
a
simple
format.
So
our
youngsters,
whether
in
school,
coming
out
of
school
or
a
second
career,
is
just
know
what
support
and
help
is
there
I
think.
N
G
I
think
you're
absolutely
spot-on
with
what
you
said:
Andy
in
terms
of
patient
capital,
I
think
with
sni
B,
I,
think
potential
we've
identified
and
I've
been
working.
We've
submitted
a
consultation
paper
to
them
early
on
lass
or
should
say
late
last
year
and
back
to
frente.
There's
a
point
and
I'll
bring
in
probably
Chris
and
Louise
on
on
the
back
of
this
it
for
me,
but
there's
point
comes
when
you're
starting
up
in
tech
and
the
ones
that
are
successful.
Where
you
just
need
an
investor.
G
That's
gonna
stay
with
you
for
a
period
of
time.
It
may
be
two
years
or
something
like
that,
so
that
you
can
refine
your
product.
You
can
get
your
product
organized,
you
can
get
it
to
market,
and
that
is
where
you
do
need
some
patient
capital
before
traditional
forms
of
Finance
will
then
kick
in
and
pick
you
up
so
I
think
from
a
from
a
banking
financial
services
standpoint
that
would
be
the
the
sector
of
the
market.
E
E
A
lot
there's
a
huge
amount
using
analytical
approaches,
looking
at
search
volumes,
market
trends
and
all
of
the
parameters
that
define
whether
or
whether
a
company
is
going
to
be
successful
in
e-commerce
is
open
to
measurement
using
big
data,
AI
techniques,
machine
learning
and
so
on,
and
that's
something
that,
if
that
were
offered
as
a
service
through
something
like
an
investment
bank
that
could
produce
a
really
valuable
thing
to
reduce
the
risk
to
know
that
you're
going
to
be
backing
winners.
It's
a
very
simple
thing,
and
that
could
be
done
here
and
now.
C
I'm
to
pick
up
on
the
Scottish
national
investment
bank,
one
comment
I
would
first
make
is
that
I
know
that
has
been
a
source
of
much
confusion
to
many
people,
but
the
current
Scottish
investment
bank
si
B,
which
is
within
Scottish
Enterprise,
has
been
hugely
successful
in
partnering
with
patient
capital
in
Scotland.
It's
a
great
model
which
we
shouldn't
lose
and
I
know.
C
That's
not
the
intention,
but
the
team
there
I
have
partnered,
for
example,
with
with
many
of
the
clients,
Scottish
private
investors
and
T
V
squared,
which
I
believe
will
will
be
a
fabulous
eye
outcome
for
everyone,
and
the
model
is
quite
simply,
someone
else
leads.
Patient
capital
comes
in
an
S
I,
be
in
a
long-term
trusted
partner,
who
they
give
a
lot
of
stability
into
the
investment.
So
that's
been
a
great
model.
We
should
continue
to
me
the
Scottish
national
investment
bank
model.
It's
you
know.
C
The
the
consultation
has
just
come
out
I'm
if
it
focuses,
and
if
it
makes
big
material
please
into
sectoral
change.
It
will
be
successful
if
it
ends
up
and
I
hate
to
say
this
in
this
room,
but
slightly
trying
to
keep
everybody
in
the
parliament
happy
and
every
you
know
every
personal
agenda
and
and
and
local
challenge
I.
It
will
not
be
successful.
It
needs
to
focus
on
certain
things
and
I'm
not
going
to
see
I
mean
it
be
obvious
for
the
things
I
would
think
it
should
focus
on.
C
I,
but
there'll
be
a
number
of
strategies
and
and
within
the
consultation
people
it
talks
about
that.
But
then
you
one
can
interpret
it
as
why
that
could
go
so
wide
and
broad.
It
will
have
no
impact
so
to
me
in
terms
of
this
idea
of
patient
capital.
There's
a
huge
opportunity
here
and
I
think
it's
a
brilliant
idea,
but
it
will
only
deliver
if
those
behind,
in
those
responsible
for
direct
and
Scottish
national
investment
bank,
make
some
pretty
tough
choices
and
go
for
whatever
the
core
growth
sectors
are.
C
I
can
give
you
one
I
remember
as
clear
as
day
was
in
the
late.
1990S
Scotland
receives
a
landling
visit
from
I,
the
is
really
equivalent
of
of
Scottish
Enterprise
and
I.
Remember
listening
to
the
the
chief
executive
talked
about
their
strategy
and
at
that
point,
Scottish
Enterprise
had
a
slightly
larger
budget
than
it
does
today,
I
and
at
that
point
of
a
country
which
is
a
population
very,
very
similar
skill
to
to
Scotland.
C
They
spent
exactly
the
same
budget,
a
Scottish
Enterprise
did,
but
only
in
high-growth,
principally
technology-based
businesses
and
support
for
those
with
Scottish,
Enterprise
and
I
think
under
Robert
Crawford.
At
that
point,
I
had
to
balance
between
infrastructure
of
training.
You
know
at
this
point
I
just
mean
in
answer
to
the
previous
question:
I
diversified
out
of
existence
and
if
it
had
focused
in
the
way
that
those
railways
had
done,
we
may
well
have
the
second
largest
source
of
nasdaq
listed
companies,
I'm
in
the
world
behind
north
america,
as
they
do
I.
A
B
Just
gonna
reinforce
Chris's
point
is
absolutely
critical.
If
you
look
at
any
of
even
the
European
players,
Israel
I
was
actually
going
to
use
Israel
even
India.
Now,
in
terms
of
where
its
focuses
and
asia-pac,
we
are
seeing
targeted
areas
of
focus
in
growth
strategies
not
going
for
everything,
and
that
means
tough
decision
making
and
then
once
those
decisions
are
made
is
how
we
then
stick
to
them.
B
So
I
don't
think
that's
any
more
complex
than
picking
those
areas
and
then
a
strong
and
clearly
delivered
strategy
to
continue
to
push
for
them,
and
you
can
pick
all
of
those
areas
and
you
can
actually
start
to.
You
can
actually
start
to
see
those
ones
or
twos.
There
emerges
areas
that
they
are
focused
on
Israel's,
fairly
obvious
in
the
air.
Again,
we've
seen
huge
amounts
of
disruption
and
growth
in
wallet,
but
also
credit
risk
decision
Inc.
So
it's.
How
do
we
continue
to
stick
behind
those
decisions
and.
D
Is
more
of
a
kind
of
cultural
learning,
as
opposed
to
an
actual
strategy?
If
you
look
at
the
kind
of
California
model,
there
is
much
more
encouragement
for
the
kind
of
creative
destruction,
so
you're
funded,
and
then,
if
you're,
if
you,
if
you
don't,
if
you're
not
successful,
you
die,
but
you
have
an
opportunity
to
try
again
and
then
you
can
die
in
you.
Try
again,
and
this
kind
of
shampoo
tyrion
model
has
proved
to
be
very
successful.
C
A
A
The
same
desk
will
operate
the
mic
system
if
you
want
to
come
in
simply
indicate
by
raising
your
hand
and
I'll,
try
and
bring
you
in
as
and
when
we
can
we'll
try
and
keep
committee
members
questions
brief
to
allow
our
witnesses
to
speak
a
bit
more,
so
I'll
just
start
with
our
guest.
Perhaps
if
you
would
just
give
us
your
name
organization
and
a
very
brief
introduction
to
what
you
do
we'll
start
with
Steven
good
and
move
around
the
table
from
there.
Thank.
O
I
Q
A
Good,
thank
you
very
much,
I'll
open
with
a
fairly
general
question
which
you
may
wish
to
adapt
or
consider
in
the
context
of
your
own
particular
sector,
and
this
is,
if
you
give
comment
on
the
Scottish
economy,
how
its
performed
over
the
last
ten
years,
how
you
see
it
moving
forward
generally
and
also
in
relation
to
your
particular
sector.
You
would
like
to
start
off
with
that.
Any
general
Ogun.
R
Over
the
last
20
years,
the
voluntary
sectors
kind
of
a
market
share
of
social
care,
if
you
like,
as
it
has,
has
grown
exponentially
and
unrecognizable
from
what
from
where
it
was
in
the
last
ten
years.
Not
so
much
I
would
say
our
membership
has
a
combined
annual
income
in
Scotland
of
about
1.1
billion
round
about
three
quarters
of
that
is
from
the
public
purse
and
the
rest
is
from
charitable
other
other
charitable
income,
fundraising,
legacies,
Big,
Lottery,
grant-making
trusts
and
so
on,
and
that
hasn't
that
hasn't
changed
enormously.
R
In
the
last
10
years,
growth
has
been
quite
modest
in
the
last
10
years
and
I
think
that's
the
combined
effect
of
public
service
expenditure,
restraint
linked
with
austerity,
and
it's
also
an
effect
of
public
procurement
reform
in
Scotland
in
particular,
which
has
focused
very
much
on
kind
of
driving
down
unit
costs
and
getting
better
value
for
money.
So
our
membership
and
the
voluntary
sector,
more
generally
I
think
has
pulled
off.
The
kind
of
feat
often
talked
about,
but
seldom
seen,
which
is
doing
more
for
less
that's
where
we've
kind
of
got.
R
You
know
really
and
I
think
we're
where
we're
at
at
the
moment
is
a
bit
of
a
crossroads,
because
what
what
lies
before
us
I
think
is
kind
of
increasing
public
service
and
public
expenditure
restraint.
That's
the
story,
that's
the
narrative
that
we
hear
I
think
that
the
particular
circumstances
for
the
voluntary
sector
in
social
care
a
bit
different
from
some
of
your
other
witnesses,
because
what
we
are
dealing
with
is
what
we
would
call
a
monopsony
purchaser
market
there.
R
There
is
one
purchaser,
and
that
is
the
public
sector,
usually
through
local
authorities,
health
and
social
care
partnerships
in
the
voluntary
sector.
There's
not
a
great
deal
of
what
I
would
call
private
funders
I.
Think
it's
slightly
different
for
for
Donald's
world,
but
we're
at
a
bit
of
a
crossroads
now,
because
care
as
social
care
is
all
about
people
in
our
sector,
up
to
85%
of
the
cost
of
any
non-residential
services
going
to
be
workforce
costs,
direct
or
indirect,
and
we're
drive
we've
driven
down
the
unit
cost
of
care.
R
Now
to
the
point
at
which
the
Scottish
Government
had
to
come
kind
of
riding
to
the
rescue
a
couple
of
years
ago,
with
a
commitment
to
pay
the
living
wage
in
care,
because
we
were
descending
very
much
to
a
kind
of
minimum
wage.
Industry
and
I
know
that's
of
interest
to
this
committee,
because
you
also
have
Fair
Work
in
your
title.
So
I'd
kind
of
stop
there
because
I
know
we'll
get
into
the
discussion,
but
just
kind
of
setting
out
a
broad
picture
for
you.
Thank.
Q
Agree
completely
with
everything
that
Annie's
just
said,
I
think
and
one
of
the
reasons
actually
I
think
both
Annie
and
I
welcome
the
opportunity
to
come
to
this
committee
too
often,
Social
Care
is
seen
as
a
detriment
as
a
drain,
and
the
language
we
use
around
social
care
is
not
around
innovation
and
entrepreneurship,
but
the
reality
is
particularly
in
small
organisations.
There
is
an
astonishing
degree
of
creativity
and
innovation
happening
up
and
down
the
country.
Q
We
recognize
that
the
contribution
of
social
care
to
this
wider
Scottish
economy
is
something
in
the
region
of
several
billion
pounds,
and
our
paper
and
submission
highlights
research.
That's
ongoing
on
that
matter
at
the
moment,
but
all
too
often
that
is
not
the
narrative
that
we
hear
so
we
talk
about.
How
can
we
reduce
costs?
How
can
we
limit
the
amount
of
resource
which
the
state
spends
on
Social
Care,
which
predominantly
as
public
financed,
but
we
contribute
a
huge
degree.
1
in
13
Scots
works
in
social
care.
Q
We
have
a
contribution
through
enabling
individuals
to
go
out
to
work
because
a
family
member
is
being
supported
and
we
also
have
systems
in
Scotland
which
enable
individuals
to
live
independently
and
maximize
their
own
potential.
So
we'd
like
to
see
in
the
next
ten
years,
re-emphasizing
of
what
we
mean
by
the
Scotland's
economy,
it
isn't
just
the
fiscal,
the
technological
economy.
Q
I
I
Uk
white
construction
infrastructure
industry
did
about
80
billion
of
turnover
last
year
and
lost
collective.
Where
billion
that's
not
sustainable.
The
last
three
Scottish
large
Scottish
infrastructure
contracts
have
been
an
unmitigated
disaster
for
the
contractors
involved.
I
mean
to
move
forward
from
that
there's
a
number
of
thrace
looming
for
an
industry
going
forward,
breaks
it
being
the
biggest
one.
It's
one
thing
we
can
probably
be
sure
of
as
they'll
be
labor
migration
away
from
our
industry.
I
think
that's
a
big
threat
for
Scotland
and
all
happen
is
the
contractors
will
use
the
resource.
I
They've
got
and
pull
ends
for
the
extremities
and,
and
we
be
working
some
pretty
rural
locations
and
just
built
a
fairly
sizable
school
and
Shetland.
The
extremity
is
all
so
far
so
I've
seen
a
number
of
thrace
here
and
I
think
there's
a
job
one
for
Scotland
to
market
itself
as
a
place
to
do
business
and
a
place
to
do
sports,
because
I
think
I
see
the
phrase
to
us
as
an
economy
more
than
new
opportunities.
At
the
moment,
big
international
contractors
will
not
come
if
we
are
not
attractive
enough.
So
that's
the
reality.
I
So
financially
commercially,
they
a
meet
the
Aberdeen
bypass
and
the
the
bridge
have
not
been
a
success
for
the
contractors
involved
and
you
can
see
that
Karelian
have
gone
to
the
walnuts
all
in
the
back
of
of
that
project
and
lagging
are
also
struggling.
So
so
the
contracts,
tales
and
tapes
were
signing,
move
to
much
risk
to
one
side
where
the
risks
are
not
possibly
understood
or
known,
and
we
need
to
move
towards
a
more
partnering
contractual
basis.
I
So
NEC
take
three
contracts:
target
cost,
stroke,
cost
reimbursable,
less
idea,
effects
price
lump
sum
with
uncertainties
and
large
Emperor
projects
have
not
worked
for
the
last
three
I
mean
I,
think
from
public
sector
we've
got,
we've
got
a
bargain
here,
so
that's
great!
Well,
that's
not
sustainable.
A
I
There
are
already
options
open
for
us
and
what
we've
tended
to
do
in
the
past
is
look
at
seventy
percent
price.
They
are
the
percent
quality
we
can
under
the
regimes.
I've
got
a
moment,
still
looking
look
to
hundred
percent
quality,
zero
percent
price,
the
extreme
or
other
forms
of
contract.
So
there
are
options
open
to
us
at
the
moment
there
might
be
more
options
open
up
under
the
brakes
at
peace,
but
that
that
remains
to
be
seen
right.
P
You
know,
we've
got
slightly
different
tick
and
mark.
We
have
an
indigenous
Scottish
business
and
some
of
the
frameworks
that
we
have
been
successful
and
gaining
entry
to
as
govern
as
a
Directorate
stole
some
improvement
in
terms
of
the
manner
in
which
these
frameworks
move
on
and
whoever
the
aspect
of
open
tendering
and
a
very
small
market
we're
a
business
of
113
million
silver.
Well,
not
grandiose
and
Anatolian
owned
area.
P
But
we
find
that
BNN
Scotland
have
any
engagement
directly
with
Filmworks
has
assisted
us
and
I
know
we're
going
to
go
on
and
talk
about
skills
and
training
and
I
can
give
very,
very
good
statistics
of
the
report.
We've
done
as
an
indigenous
business.
So
we
all
know.
We
know
that.
There's
there's
no
surprises,
but
there's
some
aspects
that
is
breaks
it
and
what
have
you?
But
we
believe
in
terms
of
social
housing,
the
investment
with
a
Scottish
government
and
night
area.
P
It
certainly
helped
us
as
a
business
to
sustain,
and
in
fact
Google
I
mean
we
have
no
good
700
employees
on
our
books
and
that
has
all
been
a
result
of
performance
sure
we
know
that
there's
been
some
difficulties
in
some
of
the
bigger
projects
that
Marcus
just
described,
but
the
environment
that
we're
on
there's
the
less
troublesome
and
there's
a
more
compassionate
manner,
which
we
do
business.
Certainly
my
experience
over
the
last
three
or
four
years
against.
O
Comments
and
perhaps
no
players,
glass-half-empty
is
Mark's
approach.
The
aim
invasion
Center
was
born
in
2014,
and
so
we
have
a
have
been
here
able
to
the
short
period
of
time,
but
in
that
time
engagement,
particularly
with
SMEs
micro
businesses
within
construction,
which
makes
up
the
vast
majority
over
95%.
The
businesses
are,
and
they
have
a
huge
appetite
for
innovation
and
for
doing
things
definitely
and
for
change,
and
they
tap
into
I.
Think
a
network
and
I
am
including
elevation
same
through
networking
is
way.
O
O
You
know
those
are
as
an
interesting
comparison
in
terms
of
how
you've
just
listened
to
you
know
a
lot
of
people
talk
about
the
digital
side
of
things
and
technology
and
Google
was
formed
in
1998
and
the
construction
industry
wrote
a
report
called
rethinking
construction
by
Egan
and
1990,
and
if
you
the
difference
in
terms
of
those
two,
you
know
him
industries
as
they've
developed
over
the
last
20
years.
I
think
construction
industry
in
Scotland
aims
based
years
are
most
definitely
ahead
of
it
and
I
think
well
in
a
really
interesting.
R
Just
to
something
that
Mark
said
resonates
with
me
and
that's
about
the
sustainability
of
public
contracts
in
particular.
This
is.
This
is
a
very
significant
issue
in
social
care
for
our
sector.
We
do
every
year
we
do
what
we
call
it
business
resilience
CeraVe.
We
used
to
call
it
the
provider
optimism
server
and
we
had
to
stop
calling
it
that
now
called
the
business
resilient
surveys,
kind
of
along
the
same
lines
as
a
CBI,
just
kind
of
tracking
trends
and
in
2016
and
17.
R
The
the
proportion
of
our
members
that
had
walked
away
from
a
contract
and
withdrawn
was
20%
last
year
that
went
up
to
33%,
so
we've
got
a
third
of
providers
who
are
now
saying
I
can't
do
this
anymore
with
this
is
not
sustainable,
and
the
same
survey
told
us
that
60%
of
our
members
had
declined
to
tender
when
an
opportunity
arrived
just
because
the
numbers
don't
add
up.
So
there's
that
there's
kind
of
a
bit
of
a
resonance
for
me
there
about
the
future
sustainability
of
public
contracts,
in
particular.
Q
Is
for
social
care
is
that
technology
comes
with
a
cost,
and
that
involves
in
a
wish
a
implementation,
involves
design
and
involves
training
and
equipping
the
workforce,
and
he's
already
alluded
to
the
reality
that
booth
for
her
members
and
our
members
in
a
sustainability
survey
just
a
couple
of
months
ago.
Many
of
them
are
worried
about
actually
can
being
able
to
continue
to
deliver
the
service.
Q
However,
many
see
technical
innovation
as
a
real
potential,
so
technology
which
enables
you
to
map
an
individual
in
their
own
home
to
see
whether
or
not
she
or
he
is
big,
app
becoming
more
frail
because
of
the
way
in
which
they
use
the
kettle.
The
way
in
which
they
move
the
frequency
in
which
they
put
their
lights
on,
we
see
real
potential
for
that,
and
there
are
many
instances
in
which
technology
enabled
care
which
has
been
developed
in
Scotland
has
been
exported
elsewhere.
The
problem
is
that
we
need
to
use
that
in
appropriate
balance.
Q
Technology
cannot
be
used
as
a
cheap
mechanism
to
remove
human
presence
and
for
me,
ultimately
with
a
palliative
care
background,
I
think
about
the
most
crucial
human
relationship,
which
is
towards
the
end
of
life.
I
would
value
and
can
see
the
place
for
technology
and
enabling
my
pain
management,
but
at
that
point,
as
in
so
many
points
of
social
care,
we
are
about
human
beings,
we're
about
human
touch
and
human
presence,
so
technology
can
certainly
enable
presence,
but
it
cannot
replace
it.
P
Another
business
invested
about
10
million
pounds
over
eight
years
ago,
and
production
line
for
off-site
manufacture
and
the
construction
industry
in
Scotland
was
over
80
percent
of
the
houses
built
in
Scotland
our
timber
frame
construction.
We
went
beyond
that.
We
invested
in
a
technology
those
imported
from
Germany,
a
mustard
net
and
closed
panel
construction.
That
is
enhanced
our
ability
to
increase
efficiencies.
It's
also
enabled
us
to
be
much
more
competitive
and
in
fact
we
are
now
you
can
southern
Oakland
southern.
P
We
will
be
putting
and
a
second
shift,
so
we
currently
employ
about
50
and
our
office,
a
manufacturing
base
and
canvas
line.
I'm
talking
to
manage
and
direct
of
tomorrow.
Anything
we
have.
No,
you
got
put
together
proposal
for
chef
working,
so
we're
going
to
keep
her
51.
Our
first
shift
we're
going
to
duplicate
that
by
key
operators
been
introduced
on
a
short-term
basis
for
the
second
shaft
and
that
second
chef
will
be
in
place
by
September.
P
So
the
technology
that
we've
grasped
has
enabled
us
to
perform
better
I
know
that
one
of
my
colleagues
is
involved
in
the
off-site
solutions.
Again,
that's
an
amalgamation
of
timber,
constructors
and
Scotland,
and
that
group
is
together
is
lobbying
the
Parliament
for
more
support.
We
went
much
beyond
that.
We
have
got
the
state-of-the-art
production
facility
because
we
had,
we
knew
the
off-site
manufacture
back
then
was
going
to
promote
ice
and
going
to
be
the
right
place
to
be
no
and
in
the
future,
but
well.
Never.
What
will
know
go
is
research
and
development.
P
They
were
no
good
to
look
at
that
and
because
we
know
all
that
people
will
catch
up
on
us.
So
we
need
not
to
set
rest
on
our
laurels.
We
need
to
look
at
the
future
and
how
we
can
develop
what
we
have
got
and
so
much
sort
of
company
that
we
bought
this
stuff.
There
is
a
company
called
Viman
and
we
have
had
their
production
guy
in
her
fight
through
two
weeks
ago,
who's.
H
H
Construction
in
recent
years
has
had
low
growth
and
a
wall
exports,
but
the
UK
government
announced
in
the
autumn
there
that
they
are
gonna
prioritize
the
use
of
off-site
manufactured
and
of
highlighted
the
Department
of
Transport,
the
partner
of
Health
Department,
Education
Ministry
of
Justice
and
Ministry
of
Defense,
that
there
should
be
a
presumption
in
favor
of
off-site
construction
by
2019
for
capital
programs.
How
the
Scottish
construction
current
way
of
a
set
up
in
orbit
or
in
order
to
exploit
that
opportunity
to
gathers
up
a
growth
and
to
gathers
more
employment
opportunities.
H
P
Forgive
me
maybe
IV,
but
inshallah
and
parole,
quill
and
I
look
and
what
we
want
it
is.
We
believe
that
there's
a
market
and
Scotland
for
us
that
business
that
I'm
referring
to
just
know
Tom
Dover,
a
modest
1000
yen.
We
see
that
in
increased
next
year
to
thirteen
and
a
half
million,
we
see
that
being
Scotland.
What
we
need
to
do
is
really
to
then
embed
the
second
shaft.
We
need
to
ensure
that
the
capacity
and
the
efficiency
of
that
capacity
can
service
at
market.
P
We
did
have
some
penetration
down
south
about
40
years
ago,
and
we
took
up
a
new
elite
which
wasn't
it
wasn't
it
good.
However,
I
read
all
these
statistics.
Gordon
I
know
that
there's
potential
doing
there,
but
the
way
I
work
up
business
is
the
fact
we
make
it
right
with
foundations
are
solid.
Once
we've
got
it
right
once
we
improve
efficiencies.
O
Was
that-
and
there
are
companies
like
CCG
that
have
invested
significantly
and
the
future
technology,
a
training
skills
in
using
digital
solutions
to
deliver
a
beam,
construction,
output
and
they're,
not
alone,
but
they
are
one
of
the
leaders
buy-in
by
some
significant
margin
and
the
job
of
things
like
office.
A
solution
skull
and
the
we
facilitate
on
behalf
of
the
ten
companies
that
are
involved
in
is
really
together.
In
that
platform
aim
to
go
and
explore
the
bigger
opportunities
it
may
exist.
A
masters
rate
there's
a
huge
amount
to
be
said
in
the
athletes.
O
Village
is
a
case
in
point
where
local
companies
delivered
a
hugely
successful
solution
in
terms
of
the
the
Heysen
a
piece
there
and
that
consortium
I
suppose
was
part
of
the
forerunner
in
some
respects
to
office.
A
solution
school
until
those
make
ten
companies
leading
off
say
manufactures
that
different
skills,
my
friend
they
are,
they
are
in
their
development.
O
Some
just
you
know
no
more
than
ten
fifteen
houses
a
year,
but
using
fairly
highly
off-site
in
cover
assertions
and
some
CCGs
Joe
Mellon
Roberson
group
that
produced
thousands
a
who
sees
a
year
homes
across
a
across
the
UK,
and
we
are
think,
there's
a
huge
opportunity
as
packing
up
on
things
like
the
industrial
strategy,
a
challenge
fund
and
the
state
to
deal
from
construction.
That
has
done
two
things,
hopefully
by
smart
design.
One
which
is,
to
put
you
know
a
significant
amount
of
money
on
the
table
to
pump
plane
innovation
within
the
construction
industry.
O
But
the
other
thing
is
to
satisfy
and
picks
up
an
appointment
mark
meet
arraigned
the
procurements
or
a
piece
as
that
that
in
itself
will
not
fundamentally
change
the
construction
industry
and,
given
that
I
think
in
Scotland
alone,
sixty
percent
of
the
construction
activity
is
public
sector
client
led
public
sector.
Clients
therefore
have
a
huge
opportunity
to
drive.
Em
innovation
aim
with
an
industry,
a
smart
client
as
optimally
the
best
thing
for
the
industry
to
respond
to,
and
if
you
know,
departments
within
UK
government
are
feeling
confident
enough.
O
Any
evidence
appears
to
support
what
they're
trying
to
do
enough
to
put
their
weight
behind,
am
a
presumption,
favor
of
off-site
manufacturing
and
all
the
digital
construction
activity
that
supports
that
and
I
think
that's
a
good
same
squish
government
to
satisfy
you
can
appoint
our
stormy
they
don't.
What
can
we
do
with
indigenous
Scottish
companies
here?
That
are
what
are
leading
frankly
in
terms
of
the
timber
engineer,
everybody
thinks
it's
Germany
and
Scandinavia
knows
in
Austria.
O
A
I
One
of
the
challenges
we've
got
as
an
industry
is
the
margins
we
operate
on
so
time
and
SEL
invest
ten
million
and
a
technology
that
may
or
may
not
pay
off
that's
a
billion
pounds
or
that
on
over
to
to
make
that
investment
just
on
on
so
margins,
we
work
at
the
bottom
line.
We
have
seen
some
advances:
obermann's
a
good
one,
an
intelligent
client
promoting
boom,
so
business
model
air
building
modeling.
So
we
know
exactly
what
we're
building
makes
bold
ability
better
and
improves
health
and
safety
as
well.
I
But
if
you
walk
during
the
same
this
year
and
what
had
walked
like
the
similar
site
twenty
years
ago,
short
of
hard
hats
on
and
glasses
on
its
people
on
the
end
of
shovels.
Well,
do
these
bones
so
we've
not
moved
on
as
an
industry
as
a
big
frustration.
For
me,
where
does
the
big
week
pine,
our
industry
gonna
come
from
to
make
a
sustainable?
I
James
will
see
us
forcing
a
single
product
in
their
throat.
I
see,
has
been
more
efficient
and
being
able
to
give
public
sector
more
asset
same
block.
So
if
we
could
press
that
sort
of
agenda
for
more
consistency,
we'd
see
more
sustainability,
you'd
see
a
better
product.
You
see
less
defects,
there's
number
of
benefits
from
that.
H
P
Direct
appointment,
direct
appointment
just
on
the
point
that
I
don't
want
to
go
against
what
Marxian
we
built
the
highest
CLT
construction
and
Scotland.
We
finished
up
of
just
finished
that
has
handed
over
next
Tuesday
seven
story
high
at
Yorker.
We
all
know
frightened
to
take
the
leap.
Mr.
ten
million,
as
well
I
thought,
though,
obviously
going
to
make
money
at
ten
million
a
window
to
the
end.
But
I
had
a
belief
that
we
could
do
it
in
a
some
allowed
basis.
P
We
had
the
idea
we
were
supported
by
an
API
to
do
a
project
for
CLT,
the
commercialization
of
homegrown
10,
but
in
Scotland
we
hunted
back
off
because
we
go
in
general
homes
were
going
to
invest
55
million.
We
bought
a
premises
out
in
Euro
central
enough.
30,000
square
feet
will
sense
letter
to
adult,
but
that
was
bought
and
a
desire
to
promote
CLT
and
top
of
the
course
panel.
So
we
are
no
like
an
innovation,
not
a
bur.
You
know.
All
you
need
to
know
is
just
point
amid
their
God
most.
P
R
Think
this
huge
potential
for
tank-
you
know
in
our
sector
but
I-
think
the
the
concern
that
we
have
is
that
commissioning
authorities
will
see
tech
as
a
replacement
for
people
rather
than
as
an
enhancement
of
the
service
and
I
think
if
we
could
get
that
right,
which
would
be
able
to
get
on
a
bit
further
I
mean
you
know
everything
that
dawn
said
about
replacing
the
human
contact
of
social
care.
That's
what
makes
it
affect
so
just
giving
someone
a
button
to
push
instead
of
instead
of
a
support
worker.
R
To
talk
to
you
know
that
that
would
kind
of
take
us
further
further
back
rather
than
further
forward
in
terms
of
streamlining
organizational
processes.
I
think
the
potential
for
tech
is
massive.
What
we
have
there,
given
what
I
said
about
the
sustainability
of
public
contracts
is
that
you've
got
organizations
now
that
are
returning
very
modest
or
no
or
operating
surpluses,
so
they
don't
have
the
kind
of
R&D
investment
capacity
themselves
to
do
that
so
they're,
either
borrowing
or
they're.
A
Q
Very
quickly,
I
think
we've
also
got
to
recognize
that
technology
is
not
neutral,
so,
unfortunately,
in
social
care,
a
lot
of
technology
has
been
used
as
a
contract
monitoring
mechanism,
which
has
had
a
and
is
having
a
very
detrimental
effect.
So
there's
a
particular
piece
of
software,
which
I
will
not
name
which
is
utilized
to
track.
Whoever
a
worker
is
where
he
or
she
should
be,
and
if
that
worker
iver
a
isn't
there
for
a
particular
period
of
time
that
worker
and
the
organisation
is
not
paid.
Q
So
there
are
real,
fair
work
issues
around
the
use
of
technology
in
the
social
care.
What
place
which
I
think
the
committee
should
be
aware
of
in
terms
of
the
questionnaire
on
procurement,
both
ania
and
organization,
on
our
own,
have
for
long
campaigned
for
us
to
change
the
way
in
which
we
buy
and
Commission
care.
We
need
to
embed
what
we
have
in
Scotland,
which
is
a
very
solid
piece
of
statutory
guidance
on
procurement
riches
based
around
the
person,
human
rights
and
orientation
and
emphasizing
the
voice
of
the
individual
in
the
process
of
care.
K
Skills
in
your
respective
industries,
so
a
two-part
question
really
and
first
of
all,
how
would
you
rate
and
the
quality
of
support
that
you
get
from
enterprise
agencies
or
skills
agencies?
Donald
you
mentioned
earlier
that
much
of
the
cost
of
training
is
borne
by
your
members,
rather
than
something
that
the
state
counties
I'm.
Secondly,
looking
forward,
how
big
a
deal
are,
how
hard
is
the
end
of
the
free
movement
of
labour
to
your
respective
sectors?.
P
That
we
as
a
business,
help
32
team
managers
and
we'll
get
71
apprentices
and
the
whole
idea
there
was
with
that
care
support.
We
run
through
all
the
colleges
are
available,
Napier,
University
and
Caledonian
University,
so
we're
well
supported.
Pffff
you've
got
the
desire
to
clear
a
DNA
within
your
organisation.
You
know
a
culture
within
your
organisation
that
should
not
necessarily
stop
it.
The
elements
of
Finance.
You
know
we
do
not
get
covered
for
all
the
apprentices
that
we
employ,
but
we
need
to
replenish.
The
industry.
P
I
was
very
fortunate
as
a
young
mind
to
enter
an
industry
that
was
sustainable
and
I'm.
Very
aware
that
my
duty
noticed
in
each
year
that
it's
a
pip,
you
know
pay
appreciated
beyond
that.
So
therefore
we
don't
look
at
it
as
what
we
get
for
support.
We
have
all
the
qualities
now:
asthma,
H
and
our
people.
Yesterday,
when
I
was
coming,
who
are
the
good
performers
and
they
couldn
t
rate
them?
P
They
could
not
rely
on
the
connectors
making
any
disparity
between
what
the
performance
were
and
about
10
qualities
that
that
we
work
with
and
in
the
two
universities,
Caledonian
and
yeah.
So
from
that
point
of
view,
we
believe
that,
whilst
the
financial
support
doesn't,
he
may
be
squared
up
those
greater
benefit
stirs
as
an
organization
going
forward
over
flushed.
Through
of
you
know,
we
went
to
the
market
years
ago
and
tried
to
entice
people
of
quality
to
our
business.
P
We've
gotta
make
sure
that
we
engage
with
that
group
to
ensure
that
they
see
a
floor
moving
forward
that
there's
no
idea
the
end
that
it's
not
about
what
Dad
do
beyond
our
and
fairly
recently,
we
took
on
some
very
small
projects
through
the
East
earshot
council
or
now
again,
a
framework
and
management
director
approached
me
and
said:
look
at
the
some
of
them
that
are
very
small.
You
know
20
units
and
I
said
that
as
ideal
to
get
stepping
stones
for
our
management
trainees
and
it's
what
to
that.
A
O
We
have
the
fortunate
position
suppose
are
working
across
13
universities
and
fairly
soon,
almost
every
college
in
Scotland
and
to
support
that
pipeline,
but
actually
going
a
little
bit
farther
kind
of
upstream
I
suppose
into
schools.
Primary
schools
as
well
him
to
some
things,
despair
that
method
construction
often
is
viewed
a
bit
as
an
industry,
a
last
resort
and
not
an
industry
of
choice,
and
that
covers
off
all
different
aspects
of
aim.
Her
attractive
industry,
as
it's
a
woman
coming
into
work
attractive.
O
That
industry
is
in
two
kids
generally,
who
a
coming
back
to
previous
point
of
view:
technology
and
they're.
Just
who
in
what
are
the
opportunities
that
construction
industry
can
offer,
and
that's
skill,
sense
and
I
think
it's
that
it
feels
a
little
bit
to
us.
Certainly,
the
construction
is
on
a
bit
of
a
cusp
of
a
digital
revolution
and
that's
a
good
thing.
O
If
we
want
a
try,
the
town
in
the
future
rate
across
Scotland,
to
work
within
this
industry
which
will
meet
to
support
you
know
the
investment,
the
businesses
are
making
an
apprenticeships
and
a
and
glad
jets
and
Rea
across
the
whole
piece
and
Tim.
In
terms
of
grown
talent
as
wealth
and
business
he's,
because
that
part
also
touched
on
that
part
of
a
culture
and
that
for
an
Innovation
Centre
that
supports
businesses,
our
own
products
and
processes,
innovation,
that's
obvious,
but
I
actually
have
big
partners
are
in
that
business.
Innovation.
It's
the
culture.
O
How
do
you
develop
as
an
sees
that
and
people
want
to
go
and
work
for,
because
they're
passionate
about
what
that
brand
is
trying
to
achieve
and
develop
and
grow
a
business
and
that's
hugely
important
and
that
as
I
think
the
reality
and
again
as
an
Innovation
Centre?
It's
not
unusual
for
us
to
be
probably
a
little
bit
further
ahead
in
terms
of
the
technology.
O
O
Just
from
that
point
of
view
in
then
the
skills,
the
kind
of
the
talent
coming
through
from
primary
school
all
the
way
through
will
recognize
us
industry
as
a
huge
industry,
with
a
vast
array
of
opportunities
in
whether
it's
in
a
professional
say
the
operational
side
and
and
that
can
only
be
a
good
thing
and
I
think
a
lot
of
colleges,
universities
and
through
working
with
programs
like
d
YW.
There
is
a
huge
realization
that
construction
has
that
variety
to
offer
him.
Q
One
of
the
friezes
I
keep
hearing
and
really
resent,
is
the
phrase
it's
just
caring.
It's
not
very
skillful
to
care
is
an
immensely
skillful
activity
and
if
that
stereotypical
view
might
have
been
valid
3040
years
ago,
it's
certainly
not
valid.
Now
the
average
care
worker
is
engaging
in
highly
skilled
professional
activity,
take,
for
instance,
palliative
and
end-of-life
456
thousand
people
who
will
die
in
Scotland
this
year.
Q
The
majority
of
them
will
be
supported
by
a
social
care
worker
towards
the
end
of
their
life,
and
yet
we
do
not
have
a
distinctive
priority
in
commissioning
contracts
to
enable
those
individuals
to
be
properly
skilled,
just
as
an
example,
so
we
need
to
in
Social
Care
challenge
the
presumption
that
we're
not
talking
about
a
highly
skilled
professional
walk
of
life.
Secondly,
I
would
love
Scottish
Enterprise
to
have
a
dedicated
team
that
consider
the
contribution
of
Scottish
care.
Oh,
it's
not
Scotland.
Q
That
would
be
a
difference
of
social
care
in
Scotland,
because
if
social
care
is
going
to
contribute,
as
we
think
it
already
does,
then
we
need
to
see
it
as
something
worthy
of
investment
of
growth
and
opportunity,
and
we
don't
have
that.
And
lastly,
the
break
set
question.
Scottish
care
has
already
presented
evidence
to
both
this
committee
and
to
the
Health
and
Sport
Committee
of
our
significant
concerns
about
the
potential
impact
of
the
inflexibility
of
inward
migration
and,
more
worryingly,
the
already
drain
power
of
individuals
leaving
social
care
and
particularly
social
care
nursing
in
Scotland.
Q
We
are
potentially
facing
a
very,
very
real
challenge.
On
the
one
hand,
we
do
not
sufficiently
reward
individuals
even
with
the
Scottish
living
wage,
for
a
highly
skilled
job
and,
on
the
other
hand,
we're
seeing
people
who
do
choose
to
work
in
the
sector
being
uninvited
because
of
what
is
happening
elsewhere.
I
I
So
we
have
to
watch
remain
this
Lee
Harvey
I,
don't
think
as
an
industry
were
particularly
tied
up
on
that,
we
look
out
on
requirements
for
that
year
and
visited
colleges
that
are
local
to
different
offices
and
universities,
etc,
etc.
Something
that
could
be
more
tied
up
on
and
I
do
see.
As
I
said
earlier
with,
where
the
breaks
are
come,
that's
gonna
become
more
of
a
challenge
and
I
think
that's
a
cute
for
Scotland,
given
where
we
set
in
the
whole
piece.
A
R
You
just
wanted
to
echo
what
Jonathan
said
I'm,
as
do
you
think.
We've
got
a
bit
of
a
public
image
problem
in
social
care,
because
it's
it's
it's
seen
as
a
very
kind
of
low
blow
skills,
low-grade
area
of
activity
and
and
and
nothing
nothing
could
be
further
from
the
truth.
The
skills
that
are
required
by
the
workforce
in
in
our
membership
is,
is
really
about
supporting
and
challenging
people
to
control
their
own
lives
and
make
their
own
decisions.
R
R
What
I
wanted
to
raise
in
the
context
of
this
question
isn't
so
much
about
the
skills
at
the
frontline
but
its
leadership
skills,
which
I
think
is
a
huge
issue
in
our
sector
now
because,
as
I
said
earlier
on
know
what
we're
not
looking
here
at
you
know
a
kind
of
boom
time
where
the
skills
are
around
kind
of
seeing
opportunities
for
growth
and
going
for
it.
It's
that
the
skill
to
leadership
skills.
We
need
about
change
in
transformation
and
certainly
in
the
voluntary
sector.
R
You'll
know
that
this
is
a
3%
jobs
tax
in
effect
on
any
organization
that
has
a
payroll
over
over
3
million,
and,
unlike
our
colleagues
after
the
boys
there,
there
is
no
direct
line
of
sight
between
near
the
money
that
you
put
in
to
the
apprenticeship
levy
and
how
you're
then
able
to
extract
that
in
terms
of
skills,
development
and
modern,
apprenticeships,
and
so
on
and
I
really
do
think.
That's
that's
an
issue.
We're
gonna
go
and
see
Jamie
Hepburn
about
that
quite
soon,
because
that's
that's
a
very
significant
problem.
R
It
just
is
another
cost
to
an
organization
that,
as
Kezia
said,
you
know
the
training
budgets
in
our
sector
already
under
very
significant
pressure,
and
this
is
yet
another
cost.
On
top
of
that
brexit,
it's
obviously
workforce
issue
kind
of
less
so
in
our
sort
care
and
support
in
some
ways,
I
think
we
are
member
shippers,
kind
of
looking
at
you
know
up
to
4%
of
its
of
its
workforce.
Being
a
me,
you
nationals,
human,
whose
status
is
now
questionable,
I
think
in
donald's
sector,
it's
much
much
bigger
than
that.
K
Increase
indirectly
anyway,
but
I
guess,
my
follow-up
question
is
more
specifically
about
who-
and
this
is
for
the
care
professionals.
Apologies
to
my
construction
colleagues,
but
I
think
the
points
are
well
made
in
that
sector,
but
who
pays
for
and
the
innovation
and
the
change
that
you
are
seeking
to
drive
in
your
respective
industries.
K
I
remember
you
know,
and
three
or
four
years
ago
and
change
funds
where
Derek
are
and
if
you
were
a
private
sector
entity
and
you
could
go
to
Scottish
Enterprise
and
to
try
something
new
or
there
would
be
some
sort
of
angel
funding
to
experiment
with
a
new
way
of
doing
things.
How
does
that
work
in
your
respective
sectors?
Does
it
exist?
Is
it
something
you
and
be
for
entirely
yourselves
and
are
the
pressures
on
that
even
greater
because
of
the
wider
cost
pressures
you
face?
It's.
R
A
mixed
bag
really
I
mean
it's.
Some
of
our
members
have
had
really
good
support
from
business
gateway
from
enterprise
agencies,
and
some
of
them
not
I
mean
generally.
The
the
attitude
seems
to
be
that
you
know
if
you
were
setting
up
a
plumbing
company
in
Glasgow,
and
you
were
going
to
employ
25
people
locally,
their
new
wood
vines.
The
local
authority
would
be
rolling
out
the
red
carpet,
for
you
would
be
referring
you
to
all
kinds
of
support.
R
If
you're
going
to
set
up
a
care
serve
as
an
employee,
25
people
we
go
back
to
oh,
you
know
you're
directed
to
Social
Work,
and
you
were
there
for
a
cost
so
that
it
is
a
mixed
bag.
But
that
I
mean
the
change.
Funds
were
really
really
interesting
in
social
care,
because
the
voluntary
sector
took
them
and
run
with
them
and
did
some
really
great
innovative
stuff,
and
then
the
change
funds
came
to
an
end
after
three
years
and
they
all
closed
down
again.
K
R
Q
So
it
would
be
welcome
for
a
particular
core
focus
on
innovation
and
social
care,
which
was
adequately
resourced
and
funded
and
which
was
supported
because
listening
to
the
earlier
contributions,
there
needs
to
be
an
ability
which
we
don't
have
in
social
care,
that
if
you
introduce
an
innovation-
and
it
doesn't
work,
then
that
has
a
very
immediate
effect
on
individuals
and
on
their
care
and
support.
So
we
are
a
any
sensors
have
to
approach
risk
around
innovation
in
a
very
different
way.
So
my
earlier
plea
wasn't
tongue-in-cheek.
Q
It
would
be
really
good
if
organizations
like
skills
development,
Scotland,
like
Scottish
Enterprise,
like
business
gateway,
began
to
focus
on
social
care
and
didn't
just
see
as
as
the
cost
or
as
something
unworthy
of
the
intervention.
You
know
one
of
the
things
that
annoys
my
members
is
that
we
know
that
contracts
are
being
handed
back
all
the
time
and
is
already
referred
to
this.
Q
Whenever
there
is
a
failure
because
of
a
contract
in
social
care,
we
don't
get
a
ministerial
task
force
set
up,
even
if
there
are
five
times
the
number
of
workers
impacted
in
our
local
community,
particularly
in
rural
communities.
So
we
need
to
change
the
language,
alter
the
dialogue
and
see
social
care
as
worthy
of
intervention
and
enterprise
as
any
other
walk
of
life
in
Scotland.
Very.
K
Even
up
a
little
bit
and
Mark
earlier
and
I
think
your
words
were
that
the
a
meet
the
Aberdeen
Western
peripheral
route
and
the
NuForce
crossing
were
all
unmitigated
disasters
for
the
private
sector.
I
guess
it
could
be
interpreted
from
that
that
they
were
a
huge
success
with
the
public
sector
and
I
just
thought
you
might
want
to
M
offer
something
for
the
official
record
about
the
consequence
of
continued
unmitigated
disasters
like
this
on
the
private
sectors.
Capacity
to
do
these
major
public
infrastructure
projects,
okay,.
I
I'm
not
sure
that
so
public
sector
I've
got
more
a
say
for
its
money
burn
it
beautiful.
That's
a
good
deal
care
but
long-term.
That's
not
sustainable,
because
carolien
went
bust
and
if
we
all
keep
going
boston,
we've
got
43,000
people
unemployed
and
the
cost
of
Karelian
on
UK
plc.
I
would
imagine
a
wheeze
they've
been
effort.
We
got
from
these
awful
market
places.
I
I
think
no,
those
the
there's
no
fault
their
private
sector
shouldn't
have
taken
these
contracts
on
it.
The
phrases
if
they
took
them
on
and
and
my
company
as
you
know,
are
involved
in
one
of
these
projects.
The
contract
form
is
what
I,
don't
think
is
sustainable
going
forward,
and
we
want
to
be
doing
these
again.
We're
already
on
record.
As
saying
we
will
not
do
that
contract
form
again
large
infrastructure
on
flex
price.
K
H
I
I
Equally,
if
you
push
all
the
risk
and
all
the
pain
across
to
one
side
and
their
money
across
to
one
side
in
these
risks
and
pains,
don't
manifest
you've
not
got
a
very
good
deal
so
equal
in
the
next
one.
The
people
looking
at
place-
number
trams,
for
instance,
may
look
at
some
of
the
things
that
been
going
on.
I
say
here:
are
the
prices
you're
gonna
get
public
sector
and
you
may
not
get
a
good
deal
there.
I,
just
don't
think,
that's
a
very
good
balance.
I
L
Very
much
convener
em.
As
a
committee,
we
were
looking
at
business
growth,
the
economy
growth.
All
of
that
side
of
things-
that's
maybe
part
of
concentrated
on
so
far,
but
we're
also
looking
at
inclusive
growth
and
I.
Think
that's
kind
of
log
and
mentioned
that
earlier
on,
as
well,
em
I
mean
traditionally
looking
at
the
two
main
sectors.
We've
got
here:
construction
and
the
care
side.
L
If
we
want
to
grow
the
economy
and
help
businesses
and
make
traffic
move
faster,
then
we
would
spend
our
extra
money
on
roads
and
railways
and
bridges
and
these
kind
of
things.
However,
on
the
other
hand,
that
will
mainly
help
men.
Well
it
not
because
the
construction
industry
is
full
of
men
and
whereas,
if
we
have
some
extra
money
to
spend
on
trying
to
help
women,
that
would
make
more
sense
in
the
care
sector,
because
I
understand
most
of
your
employees
are
women.
Is
that
a
dichotomy?
A
O
Him
inclusive
growth,
I
suppose
in
a
construction
context
as
delivered,
we
we
have
a
industry
that
operates
across.
You
know
the
whole
country
in
operates
with
a
worth.
You
know
opportunity
to
work
over
a
at
different
levels
with
an
industry,
so
it's
not
exclusive.
In
that
sense,
I
would
suggest
I
think
it
does
have
a
I
think
it
does
doesn't.
O
O
Center
are
supporting
a
at
a
moment,
I
think
four
key
projects,
a
with
sub
sectors
of
Industry
and
the
leadership
groups
and
with
individual
organizations
to
try
and
put
mechanisms,
I
think
that
a
lot
of
industries
a
lot
of
business
he
saw
be
in
perhaps
fall
into
that
trap
or
vein
of
Canada.
We've
always
done
it
this
way.
So
we'll
continue
to
do
it.
O
Think
from
that
point
of
view
that,
as
that
as
a
lot
of
things
that
the
industry's
prepared
to
do
and
from
the
evidence
that
we've
involved
them
with
certain
organizations
as
actually
tackling
no-name,
but
that's
not
not
to
suggest
that
it's
anywhere
near
in
tackled
a
lot
of
these.
These
deep-seated
you
know
historic
challenges,
but
and
in
the
broader
sense
of
inclusive
it
grows.
O
I
think
you
know
if
we
as
an
industry
can
create
opportunities
for
society
as
a
whole
and
benefits
and
I
think
that's
one
of
the
opportunities
the
construction
industry
has
and
plaintiff
who
supply,
because
it
does
open
it
as
an
underpinning
industry
for
most
of
our
sectors.
Most
other
opportunities
require
some
element
of
construction,
whether
it's
building.
What
do.
L
M
L
L
O
Yeah
I
mean
my
point
would
be
I
suppose
that
well
I
got
me
an
example.
Real
work
who
runs
line,
work
organization
here
launched
an
Innovation
Center
and
he
took
a
slightly
different
tact
on
the
supposes
that
worth
the
move
towards
pre-manufactured
assembly
off,
say
manufacturing
working
on
in
you
know,
factory
environments
to
produce
building
components.
Are
they
in
the
same
mood
on
say
that
gives
great
opportunities
for
anybody
to
work?
You
know
not
necessarily
in
a
hive
is
based
on
a
hardhat
but
to
work
in
a
lab
in
cool
sort
of
approach.
O
You
know
it's
delivering
technical
solutions,
it
often
and
actually
its
opportunities
rate
across.
You
know,
opportunities
for
a
women
on
main
working
with
Ana
construction
ministry,
but
we
work
with
a
lot
of
women
within
operational
roles.
Leadership
roles
that
work
in
exactly
the
same
environment
that
all
the
men
working
on
construction
sites
in
op
scaffolding
and
horizontal
under
Nealon
caseous,
exactly
right
or
equally
waterproofs,
okay,
so
yeah
I,
don't
think
I
think
there's
a
I.
Think
there
is
I
think
perhaps
it's
the
perception
either
instruction
as
a
meal
industry.
O
You
know
as
perhaps
not
it's
flexible.
It's
not
as
accommodating
often
in
when
women
are
perceived
often
has
been
the
ones
that
in
take
one
or
other
functions
and,
from
my
own
personal
perspective,
our
organization
as
a
small
team
of
14,
but
we
have
65%
in
female
and
a
pariah
different
leadership
and
operation.
A
R
Yes,
Karen
supports
has
got
very
large
majority
of
women
working
and
I
mean
particularly
the
frontline
I
think
so
the
the
but
the
question
of
inclusive
growth,
for
me,
isn't
isn't
just
about
your
capacity
as
an
employer.
Is
the
service
that
you're
providing
and
how
that
enables
inclusive
growth
in
a
wider
sense,
because
actually
by
providing
care
and
support
to
individuals,
you
are,
you
are
actually
freeing
up
family
members
to
enter
the
labor
market,
which
they
otherwise
wouldn't
do
so.
Interestingly,
the
kind
of
childcare
expansion
was
sold
very
much
on
that
premise.
R
I
mean
you
know
the
these
are
not
the
people
who
are
supported
by
our
members
are
not
an
inert
group.
You
know
they.
They
have
addiction
problems,
they
have
learning
disabilities,
they
have
mental
health
issues
which
fluctuate
and
actually
part
of
the
care
and
support
task
is
to
support
them
back
into
work.
So
it's
the
inclusive.
Growth
is
actually
the
nature
of
the
service
that
we're
providing
not
just
about
us
as
employers.
R
L
R
It
would
attract
more
people
in
.,
I
mean
they
recruit
the
recruitment
problems
that
we've
got
at
the
moment
of
our
acute
and
I'll.
Tell
you
a
story
which
I
heard
last
week
actually
from
the
director
of
one
of
our
successful
mental
health
support
organizations.
She
was.
She
secured
her
first
post
as
a
support
worker
in
1992
in
her
salary
at
that
time
was
14
thousand
pounds
it's
26
years
ago.
I
think,
if
I'm
doing
my
son
was
right.
She's
now
a
director
and
she's
seen
the
care
industry.
R
If
you
want
to
call
it
call
it
that
develop
so
26
years
later,
the
support
workers
doing
the
same
job
that
she
was
doing
in
the
same
kind
of
organization
and
now
earning
17,000
pounds.
So
that's
what's
happened
in
social
care.
You
know
that
the
the
tiny
tiny
increase
over
26
years
from
14,000
to
17,000
for
a
frontline
support
worker
will
tell
its
own
story
about
inclusivity.
R
I
think,
and
will
also
tell
his
story
about
why
we're
having
the
kinds
of
recruitment
problems
that
we're
having
I
mean
that
particular
individual
was
able
to
buy
a
fixed
price,
flattened
down
many
straight
around
the
corner
without
going
to
the
bank
of
mum
and
dad
because
actually
in
1992,
fourteen
thousand
quid
was
a
really
good
salary.
It's
a
really
good
salary,
and
that
was
the
kind
of
value
that
we
placed
on
employees
in
our
in
our
sector.
At
that
time,
not
so
much
now,
I
would
say.
Q
But
Annie
has
said:
I
think
we
we
have
to
reinterpret
what
we
mean
by
inclusive
growth
and
what
we
mean
by
an
inclusive
economy.
It's
not
just
a
tick
box
exercise.
We
have
to
challenge.
I
have
appeared
before
this
committee
talking
about
gender
segregation
within
the
care
sector.
So
it's
by
no
accident
that
we
have
86
percent
of
the
workforce,
women
who
are
underpaid
and
frequently
societally
undervalued
if
one
in
13
Scots.
Q
If
that
was
a
workforce
dominated
by
men,
I
bet
you,
we
wouldn't
be
thinking
that
we
were
doing
people
a
favor
by
paying
them
the
Scottish
living
wage.
So
it's
about
the
stereotypical,
gender
segregated
negative
attitudes
that
we
have
to
care
as
a
contributor
to
society.
Everything
that
Annie
said
inclusion
is
about
enabling
people
to
be
fuel
citizens
to
contribute
if
they
have
disabilities,
if
they
have
mental
health
challenges
or
in
my
context,
if
they
happen
to
have
a
number
against
their
age,
which
is
over
65.
Q
So
we
have
to
if
we're
thinking
about
an
inclusive
Scotland
in
the
years
to
come,
think
about
what
are
we
doing
to
enable
older
workers
as
well?
Many
of
those
in
social
care
are
over
45
and
female.
They
will
be
working
for
20
30,
maybe
even
40
years,
contributing
to
the
economy
and
the
well-being
of
society.
But
do
they
get
that
recognition,
not
know
I
hope
so
in
the
future?.
L
Q
L
R
Which
is
coming
out
I
think
next
month,
that
this
committee
will
be
very
interested
and
I'm
not
able
to
kind
of
bring
it
to
you,
because
not
my
report.
It's
been
a
piece
of
work,
that's
been
led
by
the
Scottish
Social
Services
Council,
and
it's
very
specifically
aiming
to
quantify
the
economic
contribution
of
Social
Care
in
Scotland,
in
terms
of
income
expenditure,
employment,
etc
and
I've.
Seen
a
draft
of
a
and
I
think
the
numbers
will
surprise
you
in
terms
of
what
you're
talking
about
you
know
with
the
relative
value
of
contributions
but
I'm.
R
M
You
in
a
previous
evidence
session,
Jim
Cole,
highlighted
that
banks
had
a
very
important
role
in
providing
support
to
Scotland's
it
SMEs,
mainly
you
know,
obviously,
financial
and
advice
as
well.
That,
of
course,
was
before
the
financial
crises
post
financial
crises.
How
would
you
see
how
supportive
would
you
say
the
banking
sector
is
nowadays.
P
Wiley,
you
know
from
her
point
of
view
and
I
hope
that
through
this,
when
I
did
return,
my
call
and
the
banks
are
not
supportive.
You
know
we're
a
relatively
medium-sized
business.
We
internally
finance
its
offer.
You
know
we
cash
support
our
businesses
so,
but
certainly
from
from
anecdotal
evidence,
I'm
aware
of
that,
the
getting
money
at
the
banks
as
extremely
difficult
and
the
extent
of
security
that
they
require,
particularly
in
small
organizations
where
you
may
be
doing
half
the
asset
to
throw
up
to
the
bank.
P
So
from
that
point
of
view,
if
anything
that
can
simulate
a
better
Scottish
government
to
make
that
move,
we
have
about
the
Scottish
investment
bank
and
various
things.
Unfortunately,
I'm
not
fully
updated
with
that
type
of
thing,
because,
as
I
said,
we
internally
finance
projects
moving
forward.
They
certainly
for
the
growth
of
Scotland
I
would
I
would
be
one
that
would
support
that
new
way
and
about
some
way
that
liquidity
could
be
ease
for
some
of
the
sports
that
our
businesses
to
progress
much.
I
Less
of
a
challenge
for
us
as
a
plc
but
I
think
what
we're
gonna
see
is
a
real
challenge
for
the
SME
from
the
banks.
At
the
back
of
some
of
the
the
the
issues
we've
talked
about
in
the
construction
sector.
Specifically,
some
of
these
SMEs
getting
letters
of
credit
on
bonding
requirements
and
I
think
that
as
something
that
US
government
can
do
there,
when
you're
putting
projects
I,
don't
immediately,
say
I
need
up
on
for
this
project.
I
Evidence
at
the
moment,
and
the
particular
and
the
insurances
sector
that
the
Raval,
the
banks
and
the
insurance
is
sick
and
the
born
providers
have
all
taken
a
bit
of
a
step
back
to
see
what
the
outfall
off
and
particular
carolien
is
in
terms
of
the
North
corner,
face
on
the
emmys.
Less
effect
up
here,
I
think
than
10
in
England,
because
Karelian
dead
less
up
here.
But
we're
certainly
seeing
the
big
insurers
taking
a
bit
of
a
breath
with
reference
to
the
sector
in
general
and
I.
Think
that
I'll
have
a
truck
holding.
A
Q
O
Maybe
add
in
we
have
done
some
work
fairly
recently
with
either
the
team
that
supports
SME
across
Scotland
with
banker
school
today,
and
they
are
actively
in
keen
to
explore
what
other
assets
exist
within
Scotland
that
they
can
highlight
to
the
businesses
of
the
engage
worth
they're
looking
for
support
and
finance,
potentially
yeah
I
mean
I.
Agree.
Previous
points,
though,
that
a
you
know
it's
a
different
world
now
in
from
pre-2007,
absolutely
and
but
the
support
doesn't
always
have
to
come
and
an
form
of
of
a
bank
financing.
O
You
know
regularly
some
things
to
make
sure
that
it's
refining
and
optimizing
and
developing
things,
and
that
sometimes
is
usually,
if
our
Yubel,
that
the
investment
in
the
public
sector
has
put
end
to
nearly
two
and
a
half
million
pounds
worth
of
equipment
that
energy
can
then
come
and
use
either
through
projects
or
a
very,
very
low.
You
know,
empirical
sort
of
model
gives
them
access
that
previously
was
prohibitive.
You
couldn't
you
know,
and
they
say
we
couldn't
go
and
invest
in
the
sort
of
equipment.
O
The
house
don't
described
previously,
cc's,
even
based
it
and
without
having
that
certainty
that
there's
a
supply
chain
there,
that's
gonna,
want
and
so
industry
now
has
some
of
those
accesses
take
in
the
Scottish
national
investment
bank
I
think
has
a
huge
opportunity
to
step
into
those
areas.
We
are
again
talking
from
a
kind
of
innovation
perspective
in
the
decisions
on
funding.
Maybe
it's
slightly
riskier
or
perceived
to
slightly
riskier
from
a
traditional
banking
sector.
O
Think,
as
a
as
a
great
example
of
we
are
very
focused
on
how
using
very
focused
around
infrastructure,
delivery
and
and
buildings
that
one
can
get
practically
used
to
think
those
companies
that
are
keen
to
invest
at
Kington,
AV
or
keen
to
develop
their
digital
skills,
but
they
can't
get
the
finance
to
do
it
through
traditional
means
versus
or
say,
there's
a
real
opportunity
there
if
attack,
properly
and
and
critically,
with
an
element
of
flexibility
and
dynamism,
I
think
to
the
model.
We
have
previous
aim
invitations.
O
N
Yeah
just
a
few
questions
that
arising
at
the
discussion
so
far
from
the
care
sectors,
point
of
view,
Donald,
you've,
you've
answered
this
and
part
I
suppose,
but
perhaps
if
you
want
to
do
it,
add
anything
to
this,
how
can
the
care
sector
be
seen
as
an
investment
rather
than
the
cost?
When
what
are
the
key
arguments?
Q
Think
we've
touched
on
some
of
them
yeah.
We
need
to
alter
the
contracting
and
commissioning
model
to
enable
a
degree
of
continuity
which
enhances
sustainability
in
the
desire
to
invest
both
externally,
but
also
the
desire
to
innovate
to
grow
today.
To
change,
we
recognize
that
demand
is
go
only
going
to
go
in
one
way.
A
audit
Scotland
two
years
ago
said
that
the
current
rate
we
would
need
to
increase
expenditure
on
Social
Care
in
Scotland
between
18
and
24
percent.
Q
So
our
key
platforms
are
contingent
annuity,
sustainable
workforce,
which
can
only
be
achieved
by
a
reformation
of
the
way
in
which
we
Commission
care.
If
we
do
those
two
things
alone
and
our
risk
and
Annie
might
want
to
add
some
more
then
I
think
we
will
significantly
address
the
fact
that
Social
Care
is
still
seen
as
a
drain
and
not
as
a
contributor.
So
it
does
involve
those
two
key
elements.
K
R
R
If
they,
if
they,
if
those
services
didn't
exist,
who
would
have
to
leave
the
workforce?
I
mean
I'm
sure
you
could
get
some
very
interesting
evidence
from
cara's
organizations
about
the
value
placed
on
unpaid
care,
nevermind
of
the
value
placed
on
paid
care
and
how
they
and
how
those
linked
up,
but
I,
think
I.
Think
the
kind
of
biggest
issue
for
me
is.
You
know
when
was
the
last
time
that
we
were
faced
with
such
increase
in
demand
ahead
of
us
and
perceive
this
as
a
disaster.
R
N
R
N
What
you've
said
in
this
relates
to
both
book
both
sectors.
What
role
can
social
enterprise
and
particular
cooperatives
play
in
this
I
mean
I,
was
speaking
to
someone
running
a
cooperative
care
organization
in
London
very
successful,
a
lot
of
engagement,
completely
different
procurement
model
and
in
construction,
for
example,
we
have
much
higher
levels
of
self
procurement
across
Europe
in
Germany,
for
example,
we
have
technologies
like
pacifist,
which
are
driven
by
clients,
customers
being
a
control
of
the
process
of
procuring
housing,
which
is
very
different
than
the
speculator
model
we
have
here
so
other
ways.
N
R
We
would
use
critical,
I
think
about
the
extent
to
which
local
authorities
have
grasped
that
and
wrong
with
it,
because,
obviously,
if
you're
giving
power
to
someone
else,
it
means
you
have
to
give
it
up
and
I
think
that's
been
kind
of
quite
challenging,
but
that
that
Andy
is
precisely
the
agenda
that
we're
on
here
and
I.
Think
our
members
would
would
love
it
if
they
were
actually
selling
to
individual
customers
and
those
people
were
in
control
cut.
R
A
couple
of
our
organisations
have
pretty
much
converted
their
entire
client
base
to
individual
service
funds
and
direct
payments
and
they're
finding
that's
more
sustainable,
it's
more
stable,
certainly,
but
it
gives
them
that
relationship
with
the
individual,
which
is
absolutely
critical
to
the
to
the
support
relationship.
So
yes,
yes,
there's
a
way
to
do
it.
We've
already
legislated
for
it
and
we
just
need
to
light
a
great
big
bonfire
underneath
it
in
my,
in
my
opinion,.
Q
Our
written
evidence
highlights
the
self
directed
support,
Act
and
the
fact
that
its
implementation
has
been
a
unmitigated
failure,
particularly
for
older
people.
The
idea
of
a
micro
enterprise
of
creative
small
producers,
which
are
local
at
the
heart
of
that
legislation
and
we've
largely
failed.
But
there
are
some
success
stories.
So
two
of
our
members
are
worker
cooperatives.
P
I
They
might
actually
prepare
them
set
in
the
acute
bed
to
usher
in
this
table
that
doesn't
make
a
great
deal
of
sense
is
not
the
correct
investment
case.
It's
not
the
right
care
for
the
person
and
in
the
construction
say
that
means
I'm
now
building
our
project,
so
the
schematic
could
look
at
the
interaction
between
the
different
budget
holders
and
what
represents
best
value
for
money.
For
us,
an
investable
case
we've
been
banging
our
heads
against
the
wall.
I
Come
you
cannot
unlock
these
two
pieces
and
it
makes
an
eminently
sensible
piece
where
people
come
in
to
the
system:
ax
one
in
lieu
and
Kia,
and
perhaps
progress
up
the
system
to
acute
care
or
can
come
in
after
an
episode
to
kookier
and
progress
do
not
seem
say,
insist
on
and
everything's
on,
one
side
say
with
all
the
right
care
levels
and
care
packages
in
place.
We
think
imminently
investable.
We
think
that
sensible.
We
can't
unlock
it.
N
One
sort
of
final
question:
for
you
mark
I
mean
you
were
talking
about
financing
infrastructure,
name
from
your
point
of
view,
the
unmitigated
disaster
that
has
been
these
three
major
contracts
and
you've
talked
about
a
number
of
models
that
we
could
look
at,
can
I,
suggest
cuz
I.
Think
you
have
a
background
in
PPP
that
one
of
the
reasons
why
there
might
have
been
a
backlash
and
perhaps
contracts
been
awarded
that
unfairly
perhaps
benefit
the
private
sector.
I
Think
that's
poor
sport
and
I
mean
the
the
PPP
sector
were
in
the
very
LEDs,
took
on
risks.
It
didn't
understand
and
made
a
whole
heap
load
of
money.
So
it's
the
other
side
of
your
same
going.
So
the
the
the
famous
example
is
the
for.
Secondly,
present
a
way
back
in
the
office,
a
ninety
sungazing,
where
the
private
sector
made
a
massive
amount
of
money
refinancing,
something
that
was
essentially
off
the
government
well
and
she
there's
a
great
example
of
private
sector.
I
Wonderful
people,
money
and
now,
if
what's
happened,
is
we've
slowly
bolted
the
doors
and
recognize
the
risks
and
and
and
and
I
know
if
they
got
to
the
point
where
the
the
the
seesaw
is
going
so
far,
the
other
way
that
the
risks
are
stacked
on
the
other
side
and
we
understand
them
pretty.
Well,
it's
a
premature
market.
Now
it's
not
a
very
politically
acceptable
term,
but
we've
got
other
terms.
P
We
will
give
you
an
example
and
a
about
collaborative
working,
I,
wouldn't
name
that
the
projects
but
I'll
give
you
a
description
of
projects.
One
side
was
an
open
tender
project
about
13
million,
no,
not
major,
but
from
their
point
of
view,
a
big
project
and
the
other
side.
It
was
a
collaborative
involvement
that
we
had
up
front
with
an
organization
that
wanted
to
trust
us.
It
was
a
direct
appointment
and
we
engaged
with
that
company
and
the
open
tender
project.
It
was
over
valued
over
an
open
tender
that
the
client
could
not
afford
that.
P
On
the
other
side,
we
got
it
within
the
budget
restraints
that
they
hide
and
then
the
timeline
that
they
had
and
a
court
year
after
was
I'll.
Give
you
the
name
of
the
projects
afterwards,
anyway,
that
we
went
back
to
the
open
tender
project
they
compared
the
client
engaged
with
us,
because
it
was
a
similar,
a
similar
engagement
and
the
the
consolatory
of
the
negotiated
project,
an
earth
team.
What
and
value
engineering
to
get
the
open
tender
project
on
line
with
their
budget
requirements.
P
O
You
know
if
I'm
an
architect
to
profession,
so
you
know
when
you
work
with
a
client,
it
does
I
in
a
Vodun
and-
and
you
put
your
best
efforts
and
it
design
in
the
best
Boden
that
they
want,
and
by
the
time
you
engage
with
the
team
that
are
gonna
actually
assemble,
that
you're
so
close
to
the
point
at
which
the
risk
is
transferred
to
them.
They
have
no
real
involvement
or
have
had
no
real
involvement,
far
enough
up
the
stream
to
really
add
value
and
look
at.
O
If
you
want
to
see
a
lot
of
what
you
know,
we're
alternately
talking
about
here
around
you
know
what
does
the
future
look
like
in
terms
of
des
industries
in
productivity
and
efficiency,
a
lot
of
at
Lincoln
Center?
You
take
process
change.
It
completely
so
that
you've
got
earlier.
You
know,
contractile
engagement,
you've
got
em.
O
O
A
R
What
what
Stephen
was
saying
resonates
with
me
very
strongly
in
social
care
because
for
me,
come
like
bog-standard,
competitive
tendering
in
care
is
vast.
You
know
his
foster
system
has
got
us
to
where
we
are
now
it's
in
care.
It's
it's
it's
difficult
to
do
it
because
it's
so
so
hard
to
identify
quality
as
part
of
a
paper
exercise.
You
know
it's
impossible,
I
would
say,
and
also
because
the
end
user
is
left
out,
I
mean
it's
the
buyer
supplier
relationship,
which
is
about
the
public
purchaser
and
the
voluntary
sector
supplier.
R
And
you
know
what
was
the
end
user
in
any
of
that.
So
for
me
exactly
what
colleague
there
is
talking
about
the
color
collaborative
commissioning
and
partnering
has
to
be
the
future.
We
can't
have
this.
You
know
here's
my
pre-specified,
a
two-page
thing
that
I
want
now
you
know
how
cheaply?
Can
you
lot
deliver
it?
And
will
you
please
fight
each
other
to
death
the
privilege
thereof?
You
know,
that's,
that's
that's
a
bust
model.
We
can't
do
that
anymore
and
I.
Think
exactly
what
the
colleague
was
saying
and
about
construction
applies
in
care
as
well.
A
I
What
they
are
kiddin
could
not
be
more
sensible
terms
and
conditions
on
early
contractor
involvement
and
apparently
model.
One
of
the
models
that
we
are
using
that
is
working
very
well
is
that
the
hub
portal
is
working
very
well,
because
that
involves
the
contractor
day
early
on
and
you
get
together
with
a
client
in
detail
and
I.
Think
you
can.
You
can
avoid
a
tremendous
amount
of
cost
and
get
good
value
for
money
through
models
that
involve
the
contractor
early
on
all.