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From YouTube: Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee - 6 October 2020
Description
Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee
A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
31st
meeting
of
the
economy,
energy
and
fair
work
committee
for
2020.-
apologies
have
been
received
from
gordon
macdonald
and
I
welcome
john
mason
who's
attending
as
a
committee
substitute
item.
One
on
the
agenda
is
a
decision
taking
business
in
private,
a
decision
by
the
committee
to
take
items
four
five
and
six
in
private
and
whether
a
consideration
of
these
items
should
be
taken
in
private
at
future
meetings
are
we
agreed?
A
Thank
you.
We
now
move
to
item
two
on
the
agenda,
which
is
pre-budget
scrutiny
for
2021
to
22,
regarding
also
the
impact
of
covet
19
on
businesses,
workers
and
the
economy,
and
we
have
with
us
in
the
committee
room
today.
Jamie
hepburn
minister
for
business,
fair
work
and
skills
and
with
him
is
gavin
gray,
who's
deputy
director
for
the
young
person's
guarantee
online.
We
have
colin
robertson
who's,
the
head
of
skills,
development
unit
and
norman
macleod
senior
principal.
A
Apologies,
I'm
jumping
onto
the
wrong
sheet
there.
My
mistake,
I
think
we
have.
Yes,
we
have
colin
robertson
head
of
skills
development
unit
and
in
fact,
over
the
page,
we
have
amy
stewart
of
the
employability
division.
My
apologies
now
I
would
welcome
all
of
you
this
morning
and
invite
the
minister
to
make
an
opening
a
brief
opening
statement.
Minister.
B
Thank
you
convener,
and
thank
you
to
the
committee
for
inviting
me
along
to
attend
today.
It
can.
We
all
know
that
this
global
pandemic
has
created
unprecedented
challenges
for
businesses
and
individuals
throughout
scotland.
We
acted
quickly
and
we
put
in
place
a
comprehensive
package
of
measures
worth
over
2.3
billion
pounds
to
help
sustain
businesses.
B
We
have
a
strong
infrastructure
already
in
place,
including
our
developing
young
workforce
networks
and
a
range
of
programs
already
delivering
for
people
who
need
it
most.
It's
on
those
foundations
that
we
must
build
as
we
steer
our
way
through
the
difficult
time
to
come.
We've
already
committed
an
additional
100
million
pounds
for
employment,
support
and
training
of
this
100
million
pounds.
B
60
million
pounds
has
been
committed
to
the
young
persons
guarantee
delivering
the
recommendations
set
out
by
sandy
begbie
in
september,
with
10
million
pounds
invested
in
apprenticeships
to
help
modern
and
graduate
apprentices
who
are
facing
redundancy
get
back
into
work.
I
will
increase
support
through
our
partnership
action
for
continuing
employment
scheme
and
we
will
create
a
25
million
pounds.
National
transition
training
fund
launching
an
autumn
to
support
people
providing
rapid,
high
quality
and
targeted
support
to
those
facing
redundancy
and
unemployment
in
those
sectors
and
regions
most
exposed
to
the
current
economic
downturn.
B
We've
also
increased
funding
for
the
flex
workforce
development
fund
from
10
million
pounds
to
20
million
pounds
for
this
coming
academic
year,
helping
apprenticeship
levy,
paying
employers,
upskill
and
reskill
their
existing
workforce,
and
we
continue
to
provide
support
for
those
who
are
unemployed
and
work
on
incomes
of
22,
000
pounds
or
less
to
access.
New
skills
focused
on
labour
market
progression
through
individual
training
accounts.
B
I'm
sure
that
all
of
the
committee
members
appreciate
the
scale
of
the
challenge
we
face
and
we
are
keen
to
work
collaboratively
with
all
parties
and
all
partners
in
our
response
to
the
pandemic.
This
will
be
important.
We
are
to
ultimately
build
back
our
economy
in
a
fairer,
greener
and
more
sustainable
way,
and
with
that
conveyor,
I'm
happy
to
field
any
questions.
The
committee
may
have.
C
B
Thank
you,
deputy
convener
for
that
question.
In
relation
to
the
overarching
point,
I
suppose
the
the
first
thing
I
would
reflect
on
inevitably
in
any
economic
downturn,
the
effects
might
be
felt
for
at
some
time
to
come.
I
think
that
was
particularly
the
case
in
the
last
economic
downturn,
which
came
around
as
a
result,
of
course,
through
the
crisis
in
the
banks
and
the
availability
of
capital
for
businesses
to
draw
down
upon
and
business
uncertainty
that
arose
from
there.
We
don't
know
that
the
economic
response
would
be
quite
the
same
in
this
circumstance.
B
Of
course,
it's
a
very
different
factor.
That's
driving
it
at
this
time,
of
course,
being
the
global
pandemic,
but
the
other
thing
I
would
reflect
on
as
well
is
that
in
the
2008
2009
period
we
had
to
create
much
of
the
infrastructure
to
respond
to,
in
that
particular
economic
crisis,
so
skills
development.
Scotland
was
only
really
coming
on
line.
We
moved
forward
to
create
the
developing
young
workforce
initiative.
We
put
in
raft
a
range
of
types
of
different
training
and
employability.
B
Provisions
such
as
the
employability
fund
and
the
good
place
that
we're
in
this
time.
By
comparison
is
that
infrastructure
exists,
so
I
go
back
to
the
point
I
made
in
my
opening
remark
around
us
building
on
what
we
have
it
just
now,
so
that
does
place
us
in
a
stronger
position.
Undoubtedly
the
decision
of
the
uk
government
to
delay
its
budget
once
again.
B
It
poses
a
a
challenger,
not
insignificant
challenge
for
the
government
and
pulling
together
its
budget
proposition
and
not
insignificant
challenge
for
this
parliament
to
then
consider
that
budget
proposition,
but
that's
the
position
we
are
unfortunate
in
and
we'll
need
to
cope
with
that
and
deal
with
that.
But
certainly
what
we
would
be
looking
for
through
the
uk
government's
budget
is
a
significant
investment
in
the
area
of
an
economic
stimulus
and
supporting
people
through
this
period
of
time.
B
In
terms
of
our
own
approach.
Of
course,
it's
important
to
go
back
to
the
point
I
made
around
building
on
what
we
have
in
place.
We
seek
to
to
learn
from
the
last
period
and
that's
why
in
2018
we
undertook
a
full
review
of
our
employability
services.
That's
informed
our
approach
through
the
no
one
left
behind
agenda
and
if
you
look
at
one
of
the
other
new
elements
of
the
fairly
new,
comparatively
new
elements
of
our
system
foundation,
apprenticeships
we've
asked
education,
scotland,
to
review
the
experience
of
young
people
undertaking
foundation
apprenticeships.
B
So
we
also
seek
to
be
informed
by
the
practical
experience
of
one
what
went
before
so
we
can
continue
to
finesse
it
and
improve
it.
But
my
estimation
is
that
by
comparison
to
the
last
period,
we're
in
a
better
place
to
respond
than
we
were
in
2008
and
2009,
and
I'm
hopeful
that
it
will
not
take
the
same
intervening
period
of
time
to
get
back
to
where
we
want
to.
C
Youth
unemployment
in
scotland
has
recently
been
lower
than
in
the
rest
of
the
uk
and
indeed
to
europe.
Do
you
put
that
down
to
some
of
these
various
interventions
that
you've
mentioned
there
and
looking
ahead?
Did
you
see,
obviously,
as
continuing
with
those
types
of
intervention,
and
what
kind
of
new
measures
can
you
foresee
that
might
be
required
to
assist
and
offer
more
opportunities
for
the
particularly
16
to
24
age
group
from
scotland?
Thank
you.
B
Well,
I'll
go
back
to
the
the
point
I've
made
around
building
on
what
we
have
in
place,
but
the
prism
through
which
we
want
to
do
that
is
through
the
young
persons
guarantee
that
we've
committed
to
establishing
that
came
around
as
a
response
to
the
reported
advisory
group
on
economic
recovery
and
also
informed
by
the
report
of
the
subgroup
of
the
enterprise
and
skilled
strategic
board,
who
were
looking
at
the
types
of
skills
and
employability
interventions.
We
might
need
in
the
current
and
coming
period.
B
Yes,
that
will
use
the
the
provision
of
services
and
programs
that
are
in
a
place,
certainly.
But
what
we
need
to
do
is
enhance
that
and
that's
why
we've
leveraged
in
some
60
million
pounds
of
investment,
specifically
for
the
for
the
youth
guarantee
delivered
through
the
partners.
We
have
30
million
pounds
of
that
go
to
local
authorities
to
support
the
existing
local
partnerships.
It
deliver.
Employability
support
10
million
pounds
to
colleges,
10
million
pounds
to
support
pre-apprenticeship
activity
to
try
and
support
people,
young
people
into
apprenticeships
and
it
picking
up
again
and
that
element.
B
The
element,
I
think,
is
that's
of
critical
importance
and
it's
really
informed
sandy
bagby's
report
because
he
was
involved
in
it
himself,
developing
the
young
workforce
at
10
million
pounds
for
the
developing,
the
on
workforce
activity
to
try
and
better
embed
that
activity
in
the
school
environment
through
the
provision
of
schools
coordinators,
so
that
that's
a
significant
investment
and,
of
course,
also
working
with
other
provisions.
The
uk
government's
put
in
place
it's
kickstart
scheme
and
I
think
it
would
have
been
better
if
there'd
been
some
involvement
before
the
kickstart
scheme
was
announced.
B
So
it
could
be
more
aligned
and
more
coordinated
with
what
we're
trying
to
do
here
in
scotland.
But
nonetheless,
the
uk
government
has
put
it
in
place
and
it's
important.
We
we
recognize
and
try
and
make
sure
that
that's
factored
into
the
equation
as
well,
albeit
through
the
the
prism
of
our
ambitions
for
for
fair
work
and
we've
also
got
the
ambition
of
seeing
people
paid.
The
real
living
wage
and
kickstart
scheme
doesn't
commit
to
that.
So
we
need
to
think
how
we
try
and
accentuate
and
enhance
that
provision
as
well.
D
Thank
you,
convener
just
willie
coffey
suggested
that
the
uk
government
didn't
have
any
schemes
focusing
on
youth
unemployment,
but,
as
the
minister
has
just
articulated,
there
is
the
kickstart
scheme,
which
will
create
job
placements
for
16
to
24
year
olds.
Is
there
any
analysis
that
you've
conducted
to
show
the
impact
of
that
on
the
youth
in
scotland.
B
We
don't
have
any
analysis
at
this
stage,
but
what
we
have
committed
to
doing-
and
you
know
go
back
to
the
point
I
made
before
know
kickstart
scheme-
isn't
probably
precisely
what
it
would
look
like
if
it
was
in
directly
in
our
hands.
But
nonetheless
it's
a
reality
it's
there
and
we
seek
to
make
sure
that
it
is
aligned
and
integrated
and
as
much
as
it
possibly
can
be,
because
it's
not
our
scheme
but
integrated
within
the
concept
of
the
young
person's
guarantee
that
we
have
established.
I
think
that's
an
important
point
to
make
it.
B
You
know
the
young
person's
guarantee
covers
a
range
of
activity,
the
developing
young
workforce
activity,
apprenticeship
activity,
other
forms
of
employability,
intervention,
college
and
university
activity
and,
of
course,
as
we
are
discussing
just
now,
the
kickstart
scheme,
which
isn't
our
scheme,
but
it's
there
and
it
will
need
to
work
with
that
and
we're
already
engaged
with
the
dwp
to
to
try
and
make
sure
it
aligns
as
much
as
possible,
as
I
say,
with
a
wider
young
person's
guarantee,
so
that
employers
engage
with
it
and
engage
with
all
of
the
activity.
We
want
to
see.
E
Good
morning,
minister,
we
all
know
the
stress
of
finding
or
getting
our
first
job
or
even
a
job
after
leaving
school
college
or
university.
So
can
I
ask,
minister,
have
the
scottish
government
statisticians
produced
any
estimates
showing
how
many
16
to
24
year
olds
could
be
unemployed
by
the
end
of
this
year?
And,
if
so,
do
these
show
how
different
areas
and
sectors
in
scotland
are
being
impacted
and
on
top
of
what
we
are
doing?
Is
there
anything
else
that
we
could
do
further
to
help,
or
are
we
doing
enough.
B
So,
in
terms
of
where
we
are
with
youth
on
employment,
we
are
already
starting
to
see
that
impact
here
in
scotland,
so
the
last
market
statistics
showed
it
was
around
about
four
percent
higher
than
the
same
period
last
year.
In
terms
of
the
estimates
as
to
what,
where
that
could
land
and
at
the
end,
we
have
had
a
range
of
estimates
about
the
likely
impact
on
employment
levels.
B
Overall,
the
most
recent
analysis
I
think
I
saw
published
it-
suggested
that
this
was
from
the
office
of
chief
economic
advisor.
Of
course,
mr
loyal
they
indicated,
unemployment
could
be
in
the
realms
of
around
eight
percent
by
the
end
of
the
year,
which
is
not
what
was
initially
the
worst
estimate
there
was.
That
was
around
about
13
percent.
If
I
recall
it
correctly
and
that's
across
the
labour
market,
that's
across
all
age
groups,
and
we
know
that
young
people
are
disproportionately
impacted
whenever
there's
any
economic
downturn.
B
So
I
think
the
estimate
that
we
have
is
it's
somewhere
in
the
region
of
it
could
be
around
60
000,
additional
young
people
into
unemployment
and
that
beholds
us
to
then
intervene.
And
that's
why
we've
responded.
That's
why
we've
put
in
place
the
young
person's
guarantee,
which
I've
already
discussed,
but
we
also
have
acted
quickly
through
our
developing
young
workforce
groups,
undertook
a
range
of
targeted,
targeted
activity
for
this
year's
cohort
of
summer
leavers.
We
needed
to
respond
quickly
and
immediately
to
try
and
engage
with
those
young
people
who
were
leaving
the
school
environment
summer.
E
B
Well,
I've
already
made
the
point
that
youth
unemployment
is
now
higher
about
four
percent
higher
according
to
the
last
labour
market
statistics,
and
it
was
the
equivalent
point
last
year,
so
that
is
as
a
consequence
of
as
already
seeing
the
economic
difficulties
that
we
are
facing
as
a
consequence
of
the
pandemic,
and
so
again
I
go
back
to
the
point.
That's
why
we
have
to
intervene.
That's
why
I
have
to
intervene
quickly.
B
E
I
was
looking
up
at
or
are
we
predicting
how
many
young
people
could
be
unemployed
during
the
next
six
months,
and
are
we
sure
that
the
money
we
are
committed
and
all
the
the
good
projects
that
you
have
announced
today
and
and
other
in
previous
weeks?
Are
we
seeking
to
ensure
that
youth
unemployment
is
reduced?.
B
Well,
I
go
back
to
the
point
I've
made
around
the
some
of
the
estimates
about
the
potential
impact
and
the
numbers
in
terms
of
young
people
who
might
be
unemployed
have
already,
of
course,
laid
that
out
in
terms
of
the
quantum
we
are
investing
through
the
young
person's
guarantee.
I
think
it's
really
important
not
to
think
of
that
as
some
form
of
budget
allocation
per
young
person
who
might
be
unemployed.
That's
really
designed
there
to
try
and
grease
the
wheels
better
of
the
system
that
we
have
already
in
place.
B
It's
designed
to
try
and
make
sure
that
employers
are
properly
engaged
with
the
system
we
have
in
places
designed
to
make
sure
that
we
can
maximize
private
sector.
Investment,
for
example,
will
be
and
go
back
to
the
point
I
made
earlier
in
a
very
different
economic
downturn
than
we
were
at
last
time.
B
So,
in
terms
of
the
quantum
of
funding
that
we've
allocated
the
young
person's
guarantee,
that
isn't
the
sum
total
of
what
will
be
invested
in
young
people.
Of
course,
we've
already
got
our
investment
through
the
tertiary
education
system.
We've
already
got
an
investment
that's
in
place
through
skills
development,
scotland,
we've
already
got
our
investments
in
place
through
developing
young
workforce.
B
A
Thank
you,
minister.
On
your
last
point.
You
talk
about
many
businesses.
Can
you
give
us
an
idea
of
numbers
and
the
scale
of
this
and
where
we're
at,
in
terms
of
the
numbers
of
young
people
that
have
come
into
the
workforce
since
say
march,
when
the
current
situation
began
in
earnest
and
what
they?
What
how?
How
things
have
been
working
out
in
terms
of
employment?
A
B
We
don't
end
training
yeah,
so
we
know
young
people
are
still
entering
the
labour
market.
But
again
I
go
back
to
the
the
point
and
there
is
no
escaping
the
fact
that
we
see
a
higher
level
of
youth
unemployment
just
now
in
terms
of
some
of
the
the
specific
information
that
you're
seeking-
and
I
think
we
need
to
to
look
back
and
see
if
we
could
get
an
assessment
of
some
of
that
through
the
information
that
skills
available
in
scotland
have
so
I'm
happy
to
commit
to
doing
that
and
providing
that
to
the
committee.
A
Well,
well,
just
in
terms
of
how
the
this
all
fits
together
in
terms
of
the
numbers
coming
in
those
who
may
have
ceased
to
be
employed,
those
who
have
gone
into
training
and
so
forth.
I
appreciate
the
exact
numbers
figures
you
would
have
to
come
back
to
us
on,
but
I'm
just
wondering
if
you
can
give
us.
F
Hey
thanks
so
much
convener
on
the
question
of
work
experience,
it's
been
suggested
to
us
that
young
people
are
having
difficulty
getting
work
experience
and
that
can
happen
in
different
ways.
It
could
be
part-time
work
or
a
voluntary
work
or
whatever.
Is
it
your
feeling
that
there
is
a
problem
with
young
people
getting
work
experience
and,
if
so,
can
you
suggest
anything
to
address
it?.
B
So
I
think,
historically,
this
has
been
a
challenge
which
may
well
be
exacerbated
by
the
current
period,
but
the
provision
of
good
quality,
meaningful
work-based
learning
and
work
experience
for
young
people
who
are
still
in
the
school
environment.
Indeed,
those
who
have
maybe
not
long
out
of
the
school
environment
is
is
something
that
we
have
had
concerns
about,
and
indeed
that's
what
developing
young
workforce
has
in
many
ways
been
about.
B
That
experience
I
mean,
I
suppose,
over
the
the
last
period
of
time.
Inevitably
that
will
become
somewhat
disrupted.
Businesses,
of
course,
in
the
immediate
period,
have
had
to
turn
their
attention
to
it.
Trying
to
look
at
their
sustainability
and
they'll
have
been
just
by
virtue
of
the
restrictions
that
have
had
to
be
put
in
place
in
the
whole
raft
of
economic
activity
and
social
activity
that
we're
all
still
having
to
grapple
with
the
ability
of
an
employer
to
bring
a
young
person
into
their
environment.
To
give
work.
B
F
I
mean
focusing
on
the
schools.
You've
mentioned
the
school's
coordinator,
and
maybe
you
could
just
explain:
how
does
the
funding
for
that
work
is,
that
is
that
additional
to
the
school's
existing
staff
or
is
the
school
got
to
find
some
of
the
funding?
For
that,
and
I
mean
traditionally
as
I've
understood
it
a
either
an
s4
or
at
some
point,
young
people
get
a
week
out
to
do
to
get
work.
Experience
and
we've
taken
them
in
our
office,
and
I
know
other
msps
have
as
well.
Is
that
really
enough?
B
No,
I
agree
with
that,
and
I
suppose
that
goes.
I
mean,
there's
still
a
place
for
that
of
course,
but
I
think
that
reflects
the
point
that
I
made
about
the
substantial
nature
of
a
young
person's
experience
or
work
experience.
And
you
know
candidly.
I
don't
think
that
really
is
probably
as
meaningful
as
we
could
otherwise
make
it
be.
B
To
make
sure
that
those
connections
are
being
better
embedded,
so
at
the
initial
period
of
developing
young
workforce,
the
idea
was
very
much
that
within
each
school
the
school
themselves
would
dedicate
resources
from
existing
staff
to
try
and
coordinate
some
of
that
activity,
and
that
has
happened.
It
has
made
a
difference
but
to
try
and
take
it
to
the
next
level.
B
We've
come
to
conclude
being
informed
by
the
experience
and
glasgow
and
fife,
and
certainly
if
you
speak
to
bob
garmary
who's,
the
chair
of
dyw
and
the
fife
area
he's
raved
about
the
approach
and
really
pressed
me
on
the
necessity
of
the
step
we're
taking
of
having
school
coordinators
in
our
school
environment.
So
to
to
answer
your
initial
part
of
your
request,
a
question,
mr
mason.
Yes,
this
is
additional
resource
and
yes,
this
is
dedicated
resource
towards
that
purpose.
B
F
Thank
you,
and
my
final
point
would
be
I
mean
we've
seen
evidence
that
even
before
coved
employers
were
taking
fewer
young
people
directly
from
education,
presumably
because
they're
also
wanting
experience
I
mean,
is
that
again?
Is
that
something
that
you're
aware
of
or
concerned
about?
Is
it
something
that's
inevitable,
or
is
it
something
we
can
tackle.
B
B
My
concern
is
more
around
the
the
current
period
and
whether
or
not
without
any
form
of
intervention
that
might
worsen.
That
position
might
weaken
and
that's
why.
Of
course,
we
have
put
in
place
the
response
we
have
through
the
young
person's
guarantee,
but
it's
also
why
the
activity
of
developing
young
workforce
remains
important
and
indeed
they've
they've
been
active
over
the
the
recent
period.
Over
the
summer
period,
the
there
was
the
dyw
skills
academy,
which
was
a
five-week
program
to
provide
insight,
skills
and
knowledge
to
help
young
people
building
their
industry
readiness.
B
There
was
the
first
ever
virtual
parents,
events
to
try
and
make
because
we
know
that
having
informed
parents
or
carers
is
critical
in
terms
of
making
sure
young
people
are
informed
about
their
options.
So
there
was
an
event
for
them
and
also
was
dyw
up
to
you,
which
was
a
virtual
careers
week,
which
involved
employers
and
young
people,
letting
them
know
about
the
range
of
opportunities
there
are
I
mean
these
are
things
that
would
ordinarily
be
happening
on
the
ground
and
ordinarily
there's
a
whole
raft
of
activity
happening
within.
B
You
did
a
very
impressive
activity
happening
within
each
area
being
led
by
the
dyw
groups,
but
they
have
continued
their
work
even
in
difficult
times
and
in
more
constrained
circumstances
that
have
inhibited
their
ability
to
to
do
things
in
the
usual
fashion.
So
we've
responded
with
the
young
person's
guarantee,
we're
responding
by
ensuring
that
there's
a
investment
to
create
pathways
into
apprenticeships,
for
young
people
and
also
investment
to
try
and
retain
existing
apprentices
and
the
people
who
give
their
time
through
developing
young
workforce
most
of
them
volunteering
their
time.
B
G
B
Well,
the
first
thing
I
would
say
is
that
I
think
we
would
all
be
worried
about
the
the
figures
that
were
reported
in
a
quarter.
One.
There
was
a
very
dramatic
decline
in
the
number
of
new
apprenticeship
starts.
I
I
think
that
goes
back
to
the
point.
I've
just
made
it
to
mr
mason,
just
as
it
would
be
difficult
for
employers
to
facilitate
work
experience
in
the
the
work
environment.
B
That's
the
quarter,
one
figure
we
will
see
we'll
get
a
clearer
picture
when
the
quarter
two
statistics
are
published,
which
will
be
next
month.
I'll,
be
candid,
I'm
I'm
expecting
improvement
from
quarter
one,
but
I'm
not
expecting
it
to
match
where
we
were
at
quarter
two
last
year.
I
think
if
I
was
to
make
that
claim,
I
don't
think
anyone
would
believe
me.
So
I'm
not
going
to
make
that
claim.
There
is
significant
disruption
to
apprenticeships
and
apprenticeships
starts.
B
At
this
moment
time
we
have
asked
skills.
We
are
in
scotland
to
try
and
undertake
some
detailed
modelling
on
what
we
can
expect.
It's
obviously
very
difficult
for
them
to
do
that,
because
it's
a
demand-led
program,
it
requires
employers
to
want
to
employ
apprentices.
That's
not
to
say
we
don't
sit
back
and
we're
passive
about
it
through
sds
through
our
network
of
training
providers.
We
are
proactive
in
promoting
the
benefits
of
apprentice.
B
Since
I
had
policy
responsibility
for
this
area,
we've
met
our
target
each
and
every
year
we
set
ourselves
a
target
of
29
000
apprenticeship
starts
last
year
and
we
passed
that
target.
We
hit
that
target
this
year
we
had
a
target
of
30
000
and
we're
doing
everything
we
can
to
get
as
close
to
that
as
possible.
But
in
the
current
situation
I
think
it
would
be
safe
to
say
it's
going
to
be
very
difficult
to
see
the
achievements
of
the
target
that
we
had
set
ourselves,
which
I
have
every
confidence.
G
B
That
that's
that's
correct.
We've
not
revised
our
target
and
just
being
candid
and
open
with
the
committee
that,
given
the
disruption
we
saw
at
quarter
one
and
we
well.
As
I
say,
we
have
a
clearer
picture
as
to
where
we
are
when
the
quarter.
Two
figures
are
published
next
month,
but
just
being
candid
and
open
with
the
committee.
B
I
think
the
achievement
of
30
000
this
year
is
unlikely,
but
we've
not
revised
our
target
at
this
stage
and
whether
or
not
we
set
a
formal
revision
of
any
target
would
certainly
undertake
asking
asda
to
undertake
the
work
to
see
what
might
be
a
more
realistic
proposition
for
for
this
year.
But
I
don't
want
the
commitment
to
have
any
sense
that
apprenticeships
don't
remain
of
fundamental
importance
to
the
scottish
government
to
sds.
They
absolutely
do
and
we
are
taking
every
effort.
B
We
can
to
continue
to
promote
the
benefits
of
them
to
employers
and
to
see
as
many
employers
as
possible
take
on
as
many
apprentices
as
possible
but
being
realistic
about
it.
Given
the
interruption
we've
seen
at
quarter
one
and
then
there's
no
pretending
that
we're
not
going
to
face
challenges
here.
G
B
So
we
we
already
have
a
very
effective
system
in
place
through
our
adopt
an
apprentice
scheme,
even
with
this
period
of
time.
It's
not
unknown.
It's
unusual,
thankfully,
but
it's
not
unknown
for
apprentices
to
be
made
redundant
by
an
individual
employer
and
what
happens
then
is
through
the
interaction
of
that
apprentice's
training
provider
with
skills
development,
scotland,
the
adopt
an
apprentice
program
is
a
it
triggered
and
through
a
one-off
financial
incentive
provided
to
another
employer,
that's
designed
to
try
and
make
sure
that
that
apprentice
can
complete
their
apprenticeship.
B
The
last
thing
we
want
to
see
and
the
last
thing
I
think
anyone
would
want
to
see
as
a
person
having
to
give
up
their
apprenticeship
halfway
through
the
period
of
training
because
they've
lost
their
employment.
So
we
have
that
system
in
a
place,
but
in
an
incident
we've
also
extended
that
scheme
to
graduate
apprentices
from
february
of
this
year,
they're
also
eligible
alongside
modern
apprentices
as
well,
but
in
the
current
period
we've
also
recognized.
B
But
if
that
can't
happen,
then
adopt
an
apprentice
it
kicks
in
and
that
it
will
do
everything
it
can
to
make
sure
that
that
apprentice
is
placed
into
an
alternative
employer
and
can
finish
their
apprenticeship,
and
actually
it
has
a
very
high
level
of
success
rate.
If
the
committee
wants,
we
can
provide
figures
to
to
demonstrate
that.
G
It
would
certainly
be
interesting
to
see
these
figures,
minister,
because
obviously
there's
a
great
concern
as
to
the
number
of
modern
apprentices
that
may
have
lost
the
opportunity
to
complete
their
apprenticeship
with
their
current
employer.
I
suppose
the
concern
is:
are
there
enough
resources
to
be
able
to
pick
these
people
up
and
make
sure
they
get
through
to
the
end
of
a
very
important
part
of
their
training?.
B
On
the
latter
point,
yes,
there
is,
and
hopefully
I've
demonstrated
that
and
yes,
we're
leveraging
more
I've
obviously
committed
to
to
see
what
specific
information
we
can
provide
around
the
impact
on
young
people.
I
said
that
in
response
to
the
the
convener
and
I'll
make
sure
that
we
do
that,
one
of
the
things
I
think
we
could
probably
more
readily
provide,
although
I
don't
have
the
figure
to
hand
just
now
at
convener,
but
we
can
establish
how
many
apprentices
have
actually
been
made
redundant
in
the
current
period
from
engaging
with
employers.
B
My
estimation
is
that
actually
more
often
not
they
seek
to
try
and
protect
the
apprentices
they
have
employed
with
them,
not
least
because
you
know
the
reason
they
take
on
apprentices
is
it's
forward
planning
and
succession
planning.
They
recognize
that
a
cohort
of
their
workforce
is
going
to
leave
them
at
some
stage.
They
must
have
a
new
pipeline
of
talent
for
them
as
an
individual
employer
for
future
years,
so
they
actually
take
every
effort
to
try
and
protect
apprentices,
and
so,
but
we
can,
we
can
provide
more
formal
figures
of
again.
A
Well,
minister,
that
it
would
be
very
helpful
to
have
those
figures,
but
I
suppose
what
people
are
interested
in
is
what
is
the?
What
would
you
say
is
the
key
thing
that
you're
doing
in
this
area
light
of
the
fairly
drastic
measures
that
have
been
imposed
as
a
result
of
covert
regulations
and
the
effects
on
businesses
and
apprenticeships?
What
would
you
say
is
your
the
key
thing
that
you're
doing
well.
B
I
think
it
goes
back
to
the
point
I've
just
made
to
convenience,
so
we're
talking
about
apprentices
who
are
currently
employed
with
leveraging
significant
additional
resource
for
skills
development,
scotland
to
work
with
and
interact
with
employers
who
currently
employ
them
to
make
sure
that
they
are
retained
in
employment.
If,
for
whatever
reason,
there
are
some
impacted
by
redundancy,
then
the
adopting
apprentice
scheme
it
kicks
in
and
if
you're
talking
more
generally
in
the
realms
of
recruitment,
that's
going
to
be
a
core
part
of
the
youth
guarantee.
B
They
will
also
talk
about
the
range
of
opportunities
that
might
be
available
through
the
public
purse
to
support
the
training
of
people
in
the
workplace,
including
apprentices.
So
it's
a
whole
system
approach
and
that's
in
place,
and
what
we're
seeking
to
do
is
enhance
that,
through
the
additional
resource
that
we've
deployed,
that
I've
already
spoken
about.
H
B
So
effectively
that
goes
back
to
the
the
point
I've
already
made
around.
I
was
working
with
skills
me
on
scotland
to
respond
to
the
current
circumstances
so
effectively,
that's
been
deployed
an
adopt,
an
apprentice,
a
transition
program
for
redundant
apprentices.
I've
already
mentioned
the
pathways
to
apprenticeships,
which
is
working
with
specific
sectors.
B
The
construction
sector
have
already
been
engaged
with
working
with
other
sectors
in
business
services,
engineering,
child
care,
I.t,
digital
software,
ideal
digital
hardware.
So
I
guess,
if
the
core
question
is,
you
know,
is
this
money
going
to
stay
in
the
realms
of
apprenticeships
and
training
provision?
B
B
Support
them
to
get
back
into
employment
as
quickly
as
possible
as
well
through
meaningful,
purposeful
skills
and
training
interventions.
So
effectively
is
about
looking
at
where
we
are
and
responding
accordingly.
And
that's
what
we've
we've
sought
to
do
through
the
work
that
was
undertaken
to
the
advisory
group
on
economic
recovery.
The
work
that
was
undertaken
through
the
enterprise
and
skills
strategic
board
subgroup,
which
was
looking
at
skills
and
employability,
which
made
a
raft
of
recommendations
which
we
are
now
articulating
into
practical
action.
The
young
persons
guarantee
being
one
such
example,
the
national
training
transition
fund.
B
Being
another
such
example,
and
a
lot
of
that's
predicated
on
saying
you
know:
we've
we've
budgeted
for
certain
types
of
activity
through,
in
this
instance
skills
of
scotland.
Much
of
that
activity
is
not
going
to
be
realized.
So
how
do
we
use
that
resource
differently
and
more
flexibly?
And
that's
that's
what
we're
committed
to
doing.
H
B
A
well
actually,
if
you
look
at
where
we
are
in
this
country
and
through
the
prism
of
my
own
area
of
responsibility.
I
already
mentioned
the
the
increase
to
the
flexible
workforce
development
fund.
So
that's
already
led
to
additional
resources
going
to
the
college
sector,
who
have
demonstrated
that
they've
really
responded
to
the
challenge
of
supporting
those
who
pay
the
uk
government's
apprenticeship
at
levy
to
ensure
that
their
existing
workforce
can
get
some
form
of
training
that
suits
their
requirements.
B
We're
also
thinking
through
how
we
might
at
building
the
success
of
that
program
and
make
it
further
flexible
still.
And
if
I
go
back
to
the
young
person's
guarantee
some
10
million
pounds
of
that
is
going
to
be
directed
towards
ecologism
working
very
closely
with
the
scottish
funding
council
and
colleges
as
exactly
as
to
how
they
might
utilize
that
to
make
sure
that
they
are
responding
to
the
the
challenges
that
we're
in.
B
A
Minister,
we
heard
from
businesses
that
they
are
not
in
a
position.
Some
of
them
certainly
to
to
take
on
new
people
this
year
is
that
is
that
something
that
you're
factoring
in?
I
appreciate
that
the
the
rules
regulations,
the
situation
we
all
face,
may
change
or
is
changing.
I'm
just
wondering
if
you
have
a
comment
to
make
on
on
that
particular
point.
A
B
Yes,
I
mean
I'll
go
back
to
the
point.
I've
made
around
the
resource
that
we're
deploying
engagement
that
we're
having
to
try
and
incentivize
and
look
at
how
we
might
support
employers
to
take
on
young
people
and
give
them
opportunities
and
in
work
we're
looking
at
a
variety
of
things
we
can
do
in
that
regard.
One
of
the
things
that
was
recommended
was
specific
recruitment
incentive
for
employers,
we're
considering
carefully
how
that
might
be
deployed.
That
approach
isn't
entirely
new.
B
There's
been
support
for
that
through
the
scotland's
employer,
recruitment
incentive,
which
was
in
place,
which
is
now
part
of
the
one
left
behind
strategy.
Many
local
authorities
still
implement
and
operate
an
incentive,
a
financial
incentive
for
employers
to
recruit
young
people
through
the
community
job
scotland
program,
which
continues.
B
There
is
also
a
similar
form
of
incentive
and
we're
now
looking
more
widely
at
how
we
could
potentially
adopt
that
for
the
recruitment
of
apprentice
as
well.
So
that's
something
that
was
recommended
out
of
the
advisory
group
on
economic
recovery
and
it's
something
that
sandy
begby
has
looked
at
through
his
activity
in
terms
of
framing
what
a
young
person's
guarantee
might
look
like.
So
we're
we're
discussing
that
through
with
skills
mountain
scotland.
As
to
what
that
precisely
might
look
like.
B
We
need
to
be
careful
with
it
of
course
convener,
because
we
don't
want
that
to
displace
recruitment
that
or
replace,
I
suppose,
recruitment
that
might
have
otherwise
happened
anyway,
and
that
is
still
happening.
There
are
still
opportunities
there
and
I
go
back
to
the
point
I
made
earlier
that
we
need
to
engage
with
employers
to
make
sure
that
where
they
are
taking
people
on,
they
are
actively
considering
that
some
of
those
opportunities
could
be
provided
through
apprenticeship
opportunities.
D
B
So
clearly,
it's
important
that
we
do
that,
because
one
of
the
things
we
have
and
we
haven't
discussed
much
it
yet
is
the
national
transition
training
fund
that
we're
seeking
to
put
in
place.
The
previous
approach
obviously
was
sector
specific,
that
was
for
oil
and
gas.
Specifically,
there
were
around
four
thousand
applications
approved
through
the
transition
training
fund
that
was
in
place
for
the
oil
and
gas
sector.
B
So
certainly
there's
a
lot
of
positive
things
that
we
can
learn
from
there
and
it
enabled
people
to
transition
to
other
sectors,
skilled
trades,
renewables
sector.
As
you
might
expect,
we
saw
a
lot
of
people
to
transition
to
that
ether,
but
also
things
that
didn't
work
quite
as
had
been
hoped
for
one
of
the
challenges
that
we
know
we
face
as
in
logistics.
B
It's
something
I've
been
able
to
discuss
with
the
road
holidays,
association
and
hollyers
in
in
the
past,
and
there
was
a
specific
element
that
fund
designed
to
try
and
recruit
people
into
that
sector
which
didn't
work
quite
as
well.
So
we
also
need
to
be
prepared
to
learn
from
from
what
hasn't
it
worked.
So
we
are
informed
by
the
the
previous
experience.
B
Of
course,
what
we
are
seeking
to
do
here
is
in
many
ways
much
wider
than
the
approach
that
we
took
in
relation
to
the
the
downturn
that
we
saw
in
oil
and
gas.
How
could
it
be
anything
but
wider,
because
we
know
that
this
is
going
to
impact
a
much
wider
range
of
sectors,
a
much
wider
geography.
So
that's
why
we're
leveraging
and
more
resource
into
this
fund?
B
And
it's
why
we're
also
thinking
through
the
specific
types
of
sector
that
should
be
supported,
so
we're
already
thinking
it
through
in
terms
of
our
ambitions
around
improved
energy
efficiency,
we're
already
looking
at
it
through
the
prism
of
digital
skills.
Of
course,
the
cabinet
city
for
finance
commission
mark
logan
to
publish
his
report
and
the
a
significant
element
of
that
was
to
do
with
the
skills
base
in
that
sector
and
we're
also
looking
at
nature
and
land-based
jobs
and
skills.
Tourism.
Tourism,
of
course,
has
been
hard
hit
in
the
current
period.
B
And
this
was
something
we'd
already
set
our
attached
to
through
the
future
skills
action
plan,
trying
to
make
sure
that,
where
any
person
interacts
with
the
employability
and
skill
system,
that
it
is
very
much
directed
with
the
outcome
of
them
getting
a
form
of
skills
intervention
that
will
put
them
in
a
good
place.
A
good
position
to
get
ahead
in
the
labour
market
when
they
come
out
the
other
end,
there's
no
use
in
providing
people
with
a
skill
set
that
has
no
relevance
for
the
future
economy.
I
think
we'd
all
agree
with
that.
D
B
That's
just
a
general
point
and
if
we
are
committed
to
as
we
are
to
having
a
good
green
recovery
and
going
back
to
the
point,
I've
just
made
about
having
a
very
clear
focus
on
that
as
an
element
of
activity
through
the
national
transition
training
fund,
and
we
need
to
try
and
make
sure
that
we
are
getting
people
back
into
employment
as
quickly
as
possible.
So
it
is,
of
course,
a
concern
and
that's
why
we're
seeking
to
respond
quickly?
B
We've
also
committed
to
publishing
and
skills
action
plan
looking
at
climate
change,
which
I'll
be
involved
in
taking
forward
which
candidly
has,
as
with
so
much
of
government
activity
being
disrupted
by
responding
to
the
the
current
period
that
we
are
are
in.
But
that
will
be
a
very
important
part
of
my
focus
going
forward
as
well.
D
Thanks
but
I
was
mainly
focused
on
the
the
potential
hollowing
out
of
the
labour
market
and
how
much
that
is.
You
know
the
minister's
articulated
more
generally
getting
people
into
work,
but
I'm
concerned
about
going
forward
that
hollowing
out
of
the
labour
market.
You
know
with
increased
digitization,
and
you
know
what
you're
looking
at
in
terms
of
how
much
of
that
is
a
concern
and
what
you
might
be
doing
to
address
that.
B
We're
trying
to
do
to
address
it
is
the
the
rafter
provision
of
I've
laid
out
so
candela.
I
thought
my
answer
was
to
the
last
question
would
as
effectively
answer
the
question.
You've
just
asked
me
again,
mr
golden.
If
you
think
there's
something
missing,
then
please
feel
free
to
to
be
more
specific
and
I'll
do
my
best
to
respond.
D
Well,
I
I
think
the
I
was
more
specifically
those
middle
management
jobs
for
one
of
a
better
word
than
just.
If
there's
anything
I
mean
this
is
a
you
know,
a
global
issue
in
terms
of
the
the
labor
market
and
while
we've
been
discussing
how
to
people
to
get
to
entry
level,
you
know
just
I
was
looking
for
more
what
you're
looking
you
know
how
much
of
an
issue
you
feel
that
is
for
the
for
the
scottish
economy.
Well,.
B
That
is
an
issue
for
the
scottish
economy.
It's
not
just
an
issue,
as
you
rightly
point
out,
is
an
issue
across
all
developed
economies.
I
suppose
maybe
I've
not
been
clear
enough.
When
I
see
people
transitioning
to
other
sectors,
it's
not
necessarily
at
entry
level
they've.
You
know
they
come
with
an
established
skill
set
as
well.
It's
trying
to
make
sure
that
that
those
elements
that
are
transferable
can
be
deployed.
B
So
these
are
people
who
are
established
in
the
labour
market
who
the
main
instances
will
have
got
to
certain
place
and
within
whatever
organization
they're
employed
in
and
if
they
then
find
them
says
being
displaced
and
out
of
employment.
What
we
want
to
do
is
try
and
engage
with
them
quickly,
make
sure
that
they
can
get
a
new,
probably
short,
sharp
form
of
skills
intervention.
But
you
know,
don't
don't
forget
all
the
skills,
the
talents,
the
attributes
that
they
have
built
up
through
their
working
lives.
B
You
know
the
tournaments
being
deployed
increasingly
and
there's
not
one
I
particularly
like,
but
it's
one
that
seems
to
be
getting
banned
about
and
used.
As
you
know,
the
meta
skills
that
people
have
in
terms
of
being
able
to
have
that
transferable
skill
set
around
adaptability
and
applied
learning
in
the
workplace.
B
You
take
that
with
you
into
your
new
workplace.
So
you
know
it's.
If
you've
been
a
manager
in
another
organization,
then
you
know
I'm
not
saying
we
can
guarantee.
Every
person
will
then
be
able
to
get
a
an
equivalent
managerial
level
role
in
another
organisation,
but
they
should
be
able
to
take
the
skill
set
that
they've
had
and
apply
that
in
a
new
workplace
but
supplemented
with
specific
sector
skills
through
the
provision
of
new
training.
That's
my
ambition.
I
B
Okay,
so
it
was
a
time
frame,
it
was
the
who
who
will
deliver,
but
I
didn't
hear
I
mean
in
terms
of
my
engagement
with
business,
of
I've,
already
made
the
point
as
extensive,
and
we
discussed
a
number
of
matters,
but
of
late,
as
you
can
imagine,
the
young
person
guarantee
has
been
preeminent
amongst
the
issues
that
we've
discussed.
I've
discussed
that,
on
a
collective
basis
with
the
business
organizations,
I've
discussed
it
on
an
individual.
B
It
went
to
one
business
basis
with
the
business
organizations,
and
I've
also
discussed
it
with
businesses
at
a
local
level
through
the
network
of
chambers
of
commerce.
I
also
engage
with
the
scvo
on
a
very
regular
basis.
They
are
a
critical
partner
in
terms
of
engaging
with
young
people,
young
people
who
might
be
fairly
disenfranchised
from
the
labour
market
already
in
terms
of
getting
them
into
employment.
B
He's
had
wide
engagement
on
on
these
matters,
in
terms
of
who
will
deliver
the
the
young
person's
guarantee
I
mean.
Hopefully
I
was
clear
at
the
outset,
some
of
the
earlier
questioning
that
effectively
the
youth
guarantee
encompasses
and
builds
on
that
wide
range
of
activity
that
is
in
pre-existence,
but
it
seeks
to
enhance
that
and
act
as
a
a
portal
for
people
in
to
existing
provision.
B
B
Skills
of
scotland
has
a
clear
role,
working
with
our
network
of
training
providers,
all
of
whom
have
to
engage
with
employers
to
make
sure
that
we're
actively
engaged
with
those
who
will
provide
the
opportunities-
and,
as
I
said
earlier,
although
it's
not
creature
of
our
creation
and
although
it
might
not
look
exactly
as
it
might
have
been
involved
earlier-
or
it
was
our
own
program.
We're
also
seeking
to
make
sure
that
the
kickstart
scheme
can
interact
appropriately
and
effectively
with
our
ambitions
for
the
young
person's
guarantee
as
well.
I
Okay,
I'm
just
gonna
push
in
that
slightly.
The
way,
you're
speaking,
makes
me
think
that
the
youth
guarantee
is
going
to
be
an
extension
of
current
schemes
rather
than
a
new
scheme
in
its
own
right.
Is
that
right?
And
if
so,
and
given
we've
heard
about
numbers
of
apprenticeships
falling
and
indeed
most
of
the
current
schemes
falling?
How
do
you
get
businesses
involved?
We've
heard
from
businesses
that
there
needs
to
be
incentives
there,
both
financial
and
that
it
becomes
worthwhile
and
that
it
lasts
long
enough?
B
I
I
disagree
with
that
last
point
actually,
because
I
think
what
we
need
to
do
is
try
and
make
sure
that
there's
effectively,
because
one
of
the
things
I'll
hear
frequently
from
employers
is
that
the
landscape
of
provision
can
be
quite
complex.
So
I
think,
having
something
as
very
obviously
branded
as
a
young
person
guarantee
can
go
a
long
way
in
helping
in
that
regard.
B
In
terms
of,
I
guess,
I
would
describe
it
as
accentuating
and
building
on
the
system
we
have
under
the
the
badge
of
the
young
person's
guarantee,
and
some
of
the
very
points
that
have
been
raised
with
you
as
areas
of
concern
or
opportunities
by
the
business
community
are,
as
I've
already
indicated,
things
that
we're
actively
looking
at
and
considering
so
ms
grant
mentions
the
the
idea
of
incentives
to
recruit
young
people
and
that's
something
we're
looking
at
right
now.
So
that's
why.
I
B
To
an
extent,
that's
that's,
that's
that's
correct,
but
you
know
the
the
the
landscape
we're
in
has
changed
drastically,
so
these
things
will
have
to
operate
flexibly
and
be
responsive
to
the
circumstances.
We're
in
and
some
elements
of
it
are
new
I'll.
Go
back
to
the
point
I
made
earlier.
You
know:
kickstart
is
now
in
place,
that's
a
new
scheme
and
okay,
it's
not
our
scheme,
but
it's
there
and
we
better
make
sure
that
it
pulls
in
the
same
direction
as
the
rest
of
the
provision
we
have
on
the
ground.
B
So
you
know
to
an
extent.
I
would
concur
with
the
points
that
you're
making
ms
grant,
but
we
are
putting
in
additional
resource
so
that
we
can
build
on
what
we
have
accentuate
and
drive
participation
in
the
programs
we
have
in
place.
So
you
would
it
shouldn't
be
a
surprise,
for
example,
as
part
of
a
young
person's
guarantee.
You
know,
apprenticeships
are
part
of
that
apprenticeships.
Aren't
you
and
we're
not
creating
an
entire
new
system
for
the
delivery
of
apprenticeships,
but
nonetheless
they
are
wrapped
up
and
part
of
the
young
person's
guarantee.
B
I
mean
at
his
core.
A
young
person's
guarantee
is
to
do
exactly
as
what
it
says
is
to
guarantee
a
young
person,
the
experience
of
employment,
education
or
training
that
doesn't
require
us
to
create
an
entire
new
system,
but
it
does
require
us
to
think
how
we
maximize
the
benefit
of
the
existing
system
that
we
have,
and
I
think
approaching,
that
through
the
prism
of
something
designed
and
badged
as
a
young
person's
guarantee,
is
an
important
step
in
that
regard.
J
Thanks
thanks
very
much
convener,
following
on
a
little
bit
from
what
rhoda
grant
was
saying.
The
committee,
as
you
may
be
aware,
has
been
engaging
with
young
people
in
relationship
to
how
they
see
their
future
in
the
context
of
the
pandemic
and
they've
told
us,
for
example,
they
want
to
see
student
accommodation
made
cheaper.
They
want
to
see
national
programs
to
gain
practical
skills.
J
They
want
debt
relief
for
students
who
are
out
of
work
over
summer,
quite
a
lot
of
stuff
that
young
people
are
looking
at
and
what
struck
us
is
the
extent
to
which
they
are
aware,
engaged
and
interested
in
how
to
shape
their
own
future.
So
can
I
just
ask
you
how
much
engagement
are
you
having
with
young
people
in
terms
of
the
design
of
the
scheme,
because,
of
course
it
is
a
guarantee,
as
you
said,
and
that
does
involve
existing
programs
being
wrapped
up
in
that.
J
But
there's
a
lot
more
to
what
young
people
have
said
about
their
economic
prospects
than
than
just
education,
work
or
training.
And
I
know
from
sandy
begbie's
report
that
he
says
that
it's
important,
that
among
the
next
steps,
are
to
continue
to
engage
and
re-engage
with
key
stakeholders
to
test
the
recommendations.
B
So
I
mean
this
is
something
I
think
is
of
the
utmost
importance
and
it's
not
a
new
approach
to
us.
So
in
taking
forward
the
developing
neon
workforce
initiative,
we've
it
continued
to
articulate
the
importance
of
each
regional
group
having
the
direct
involvement
of
young
people
in
the
learner
journey
review.
B
Sandy
bagby,
along
with
fiona
hislop,
met
directly
with
a
panel
of
young
people
to
hear
from
them
as
to
what
their
experience
has
been
and
what
their
expectations
would
be
from
any
young
person's
guarantee,
and
that
continues
to
be
important.
So
what
we
have
done
is
we've.
It
provided
funding
to
young
scott
who
are,
by
my
estimation,
I
think,
by
most
people's
estimation,
very
effective
and
good
at
ensuring
that
we
engage
with
a
wide
range
of
young
people
from
a
whole
host
of
different
backgrounds
to
work
with
young
people.
B
So
they
can
directly
inform
the
development
of
the
the
young
person's
guarantee
moving
forward.
So
it's
important
and
there
have
been
a
number
of
questions
about
us
hearing
the
voice
of
business.
Of
course
that's
of
paramount
importance
because
they
will
provide
the
opportunities
and
we
have
to
hear
about
the
practical
implications
for
them
and
what
practical
support
we
can
put
in
place.
But
equally,
we
also
have
to
hear
from
young
people
as
to
the
types
of
things
that
they
think
would
be
helpful.
B
B
But
the
very
purpose
of
the
provision
of
funding
to
young
scott
is
to
have
that
type
of
meaningful
engagement
so
that
young
people's
voices
can
be
at
the
core
of
what
we
we
do.
And
you
know
it's
not
just
young
scott
that
we've
been
engaged
with.
You
know
engaged
with
princess
trust
and
bernardos,
who
equally
have
been
able
to
facilitate
engagement
with
with
young
people
as
well
and
young
people
who,
it
might
be
considered
to
have
experienced
a
range
of
challenges
in
their
lives.
That
we
really
must
consider.
J
I'm
just
seeking
some
reassurance
that
you
are
satisfied
and
doing
all
you
can
to
make
sure
that
the
approaches
they
adopt
are
capturing
the
range
of
experiences
you
mentioned
young
people
from
care,
for
example,
obviously
in
a
very,
very
important
group,
but
you're
capturing
the
whole
range
of
experiences
that
you
need
to
make
sure
that,
on
an
ongoing
basis,
this
this
job
guarantee
continues
to
be
designed
in
a
way
that
reflects
young
people's
priorities.
I
mean.
B
While
we
reach
every
single
young
person
or
a
representative
of
every
core
of
single
young
person,
it'd
be
remiss
of
me
to
absolutely
guarantee.
Yes,
we
will,
but
that's
that's
the
eternal
challenge
for
any
area
of
policy.
Isn't
it
you
know
who
who
is
it
we're
not
speaking
to?
Well?
Sometimes
it
can
be
difficult
to
know,
but
you
know
the
ambition
is
to
to
engage
with
a
wider
range
of
young
people
as
possible.
Okay,
thanks.
A
A
K
You
very
much
convener
and
thank
you
committee
for
giving
me
the
opportunity
to
reiterate
the
government's
thinking
behind
the
bill
and
to
begin
to
respond
to
the
issues
that
have
arisen
and
written
in
oral
evidence.
The
committee
over
the
last
few
months
put
simply
the
bill's
primary
purpose
is
to
accelerate
the
development
of
heat
networks
in
scotland
in
order
to
help
drive
down
emissions
and
to
tackle
fuel
poverty
whilst
providing
some
protection
to
users
of
these
networks.
K
The
bill
also
responds
to
very
clear
recommendation
from
the
competition
and
markets
authority.
That
regulation
is
now
needed,
as
has
already
been
recognized
by
the
committee.
There
are
limits
on
what
we
can
do
in
scotland,
particularly
with
respect
to
consumer
protection,
which
remains
reserved
to
the
uk
government.
K
As
I've
mentioned,
the
bill
already
provides
some
safeguards,
but
as
I've
set
out
in
the
accompanying
documents,
I'm
working
with
the
uk
government
to
secure
the
powers
needed
to
implement
comprehensive
consumer
standards
in
scotland.
With
that
in
mind,
I
can
confirm
to
the
committee
that
I've
today
written
to
quasi
quarting
minister
for
business,
energy
and
clean
growth
at
bayes
with
a
proposed
solution.
K
We
have
listened
to
the
calls
for
more
explicit
requirements
around
fuel
poverty
and
on
the
role
for
local
authorities
in
consenting
new
heat
networks
in
advance
of
stage
two.
I
can
confirm
to
the
committee
they'll
look
seriously
at
these
issues
and
consider
how
we
can
ensure
a
more
explicit
focus
on
fuel
poverty,
as
well
as
ensuring
that
we
strike
the
right
balance
for
local
authorities
and
ensure
that
they
have
the
right
powers
to
drive
forward
heat
network
developments
in
their
areas.
K
The
bill
will
be
transformational
for
the
heat
networks
market
in
scotland,
but
it
is
but
one
piece
of
the
puzzle
and
there
are
other
actions
needed
to
grow.
The
heat
network
sector
in
scotland,
including
strengthening
wider
policy
frameworks,
as
well
as
ensuring
there
is
financial
and
project
support
available
to
help
schemes
get
over
the
line
and
to
do
this
successfully
while
ensuring
that
the
bill
is
delivered
safely
and
on
time.
K
I
will
stop
there,
as
I'm
sure
the
committee
will
have
a
lot
of
questions
for
me,
convener
as
always
I'll
endeavor,
to
answer
them
in
what
I
hope
you'll
find
will
be
a
helpful
manner,
but
please
do
let
me
know
at
any
point
if
supplementary
written
evidence
would
be
useful,
so
kavin.
I
look
forward
to
working
with
you
and
the
committee
as
the
bill
progresses
and
to
answering
your
questions
this
morning.
Thank
you
very
much.
A
Thank
you,
minister.
I've
asked
a
number
of
witnesses
to
the
committee
and
they've
all
agreed
that
the
definition
of
heat
networks
and
the
definitions
in
the
bill
are
adequate
both
for
current
technologies
and
going
into
the
future,
and
I'm
presuming
that
you
will
agree
with
that
viewpoint.
So
I'm
just
wondering
if
you
could
explain
why,
with
reference
to
the
provisions
of
the
bill,
that
is
the
case.
K
Certainly
convener,
and
it
is
important
that
any
definition
is
clear
on
who
the
regulation
will
apply
to,
but
it's
also
important.
It
has
the
capacity
to
capture
both
existing
and
emerging
technology
and
infrastructure.
As
you
indicate
convener,
we
believe
the
definition
of
introduction
does
this,
and
I
note
that
of
the
23
responses
to
the
committee's
call
for
evidence
that
commented
on
the
definition.
16
indicated
that
they
broadly
agreed
with
the
current
definition.
K
K
I
certainly
recognize
that
the
definition
doesn't
explicitly
reference
ambient
or
shared
loop
systems,
which
I
know
has
come
up
in
evidence
to
the
committee.
We
anticipate
more
these
networks
in
future,
and
the
warrant
regulation
currently
currently
drafted
allows
for
this.
Should
the
definition
be
need
to
be
amended
in
future
subsection
1
7
provides
for
this.
We
believe
convener
and
we
I
know
that
the
law
society
of
scotland
said
that
we
agree.
The
definition
of
a
heat
network
should
be
sufficiently
neutral
to
cover
as
many
types
of
heat
networks
as
possible.
K
A
Yes,
I
see,
I
think,
you're
meaning
section
one
subsection,
seven
in
terms
of
the
the
modification
power
in
terms
of
regulations,
and
I
don't
think
there's
any
provision
in
that
section
in
terms
of
consultation
prior
to
alteration
in
the
regulations.
So
can
you
give
us
an
indication
of
what
the
scottish
government's
position
on
that
is?
Would
there
be
consultation
on
future
amendment
to
the
definitions
and
where
do
we
find
a
commitment
to
that.
K
Certainly
convener,
I
would
I
agree
that
if
there
was
a
change
in
definition,
that
that
was
something
that
we
would
need
to
consult
with
our
stakeholders
on
to
ensure
that
it
was
it
was
drafted
appropriately.
If
I
may
bring
in
mr
hempel
just
to
to
address
the
particular
point
around
what
consultation
mechanism
we
would
use.
If
we
were
to
undertake
that
that
action.
L
Yeah,
that's
right,
so
it
would
be
any
any
changes
would
be
subject
to
regulation
and
I
guess,
with
with
any
regulation
that
we
make
we
would.
We
would
envisage
our
and
and
be
required
to
undertake
a
public
consultation
on
that.
It's
just
probably
worth
adding
that
the
regulations
that
would
that
would
follow
the
bill.
K
K
If
there
were
changes
in
technologies
that
were
included
and
obviously
look
at
the
drafting,
but
that's
my
understanding
of
why
we've
kept
it
in
the
terms
we
have
within
the
bill
itself
and
we're
obviously
looking
to
take
account
of
a
potential
technological
change
that
will
happen
over
time.
This
this
bill
is
trying
to
replicate.
K
You
know
what
we
have
already
in
terms
of
electricity
and
gas
supply,
a
very
complex
legislative
framework
for,
for
both
those
particular
energy
sources
and,
in
this
case,
we're
trying
to
create
from
scratch
appropriate
licensing
and
regulated
regime
for
heat
networks
in
scotland,
and
we
wouldn't
want
to
have
to
keep
coming
back
to
to
a
main
primary
legislation.
If
there
was
a
list
on
in
the
bill.
A
K
Conveniently
we
can
come
back
and
our
knowledge
of
existing
systems
that
are
in
play
if
that
would
be
helpful
to
committee
and
on
ones
which
we
understand
are
under
development
and,
of
course,
I've
referenced.
The
ambient
or
shared
loop
systems
as
two
examples
of
potentially
new
systems
that
have
been
referenced
in
evidence.
The
committee
already.
G
K
K
We
are
a
position
where
we
had
a
number
of
options
that
were
put
to
be
of
written
back
to
mr
qarting
to
indicate
that
if
there
is
to
be
a
a
gb
wide
framework
which
would
apply
for
consumer
protection,
which
we
understand,
uk
ministers
may
bring
forward
in
a
bill
early
next
year.
And
then
we
are.
We
would
welcome
that.
That
provides
some
certainty.
K
We
are
seeking
from
uk
ministers
the
ability
for
scottish
ministers
to
appoint
a
licensing
authority
and
to
appoint
a
body
to
oversee
the
implementation
of
those
consumer
protection
powers
in
scotland
and
we'll
wait
for
a
response
from
from
mr
quarting.
We
understand
and
the
solution
we've
sought
is
one
that
is
favored
by
base,
but
we
have
to
wait
for
a
response
from
from
that.
That
should
hopefully
allow
us
to
go
forward
with
the
ability
to
appoint
a
a
body
such
as
perhaps
off
gem.
K
If
the
off
gem
are
to
be
appointed
by
uk
ministers
to
undertake
that
activity
in
in
england,
and
then
we
can
equally
apply
for
off
gem
to
to
be
the
appropriate
body
in
scotland,
and
so
there
are
certainly
section
four
of
the
bill
enables
scottish
ministers
by
regulations
to
appoint
the
licensing
authorities.
Main
function
will
be
administering
the
licensing
system
and,
as
off-gem
is
a
statutory
body
established
by
uk
widely
legislation.
It's
not
within
devolved
competence
for
to
point
off
gem
as
our
licensing
authority
at
present.
K
Hence
why
the
measures
that
mr
parting
may
be
willing
to
take
would
be
enormously
helpful
and
we're
obviously
we're
aware:
there's
a
risk
of
two
organizations
off
gem
and
the
licensing
authority
created
by
the
bill
operating
in
scotland
under
two
separate
pieces
of
legislation
and
that's
what
we
want
to
to
avoid
any
any
confusion
that
might
be
created
for
consumers
in
the
industry.
And,
of
course,
we
also
want
to
to
deploy
public
money
in
an
efficient
manner
as
possible.
K
So,
as
I
say,
we've
written
to
mr
qarting
with
suggested
solution
and
we're
optimistic
that
agreement
will
be
in
place
in
the
near
future
during
the
passage
of
the
bill
and
we're
keen
to
keep
the
committee
of
course
informed
of
that.
And
meanwhile,
though,
I
would
stress
it's
sensible,
the
bill
retains
the
flexibility
for
either
scottish
ministers
or
a
body
within
our
gift
to
execute
the
important
functions
of
the
licensing
authority
and
eventually
legislation.
This
area
doesn't
come
forward.
So
president,
we're
expecting
that
bill
to
be
introduced
to
uk
parliament.
K
But
if
it
isn't,
the
flexibility
in
the
bill
gives
us
a
fallback
position
and
that
we
can
at
least
ensure
the
compliance
of
our
our
bill
in
terms
of
legions
of
competence,
so
that
that
clarifies
the
matter
for
mr
beatty.
But
of
course,
if
I've
not
addressed
what
he
was
looking
for.
Please
do
fire
back
to
me.
G
G
Your
proposals,
given
where
you
stand
at
the
moment,
how
would
you
see
the
proposed
scottish
regulatory
regime
differing
from
the
wider
uk
regime?
Where
would
you
where
would
you
see
the
differences
that
you'd
like
to
to
feed
in
there
and
what
effect
would
a
divergent
licensing
regime
if
it
came
about
have
an
investment
in
consumers.
K
Really
really
important
points
both
of
those
I
mean.
Firstly,
I
suppose,
in
terms
of
the
essential
differences
that
we
see
with
our
approach
to
to
those
of
uk
ministers,
they've,
obviously
taken
a
a
different
approach
in
their
proposals,
which
is
a
sort
of
authorization
mechanism
and
which,
as
I
understand
it,
is
it's.
Obviously,
our
approach
is
more
in
line
with
what
the
competition
and
market
authority
we're
recommending
in
their
report
and
probably
no
surprise.
K
We
obviously
fed
in
significantly
to
that
exercise
and
had
been
engaging
with
stakeholders
throughout
before
the
cma's
investigation
was
undertaken,
but
they
have
made
recommendations
which
we
believe
are
well
aligned
with
the
proposals
we
are
bringing
to
parliament
in
terms
of
our
own
approach.
The
authorisation
approach
the
uk
government
is
taking
is
a
valid
approach,
but
we
believe
ours
will
give
more
investor
certainty
to
the
industry,
and,
I
believe
is,
is
a
robust
and
proportionate
system
that
we're
putting
in
place.
L
Yeah,
it's
echo
what
the
minister
said
there.
I
think
it's
important
also
to
remember
that,
just
with
the
the
market
having
gone
unregulated
for
for
so
long,
we
feel
that
this
licensing
approach
allows
us
to
check.
On
the
you
know,
the
fit
and
proper
checks
on
on
existing
operators
on
on
things
like
their
solvency
and
to
establish
real
dialogue
and
with
the
sector
that,
I
guess
at
the
moment
is,
is
not
quite
quite
there,
quite
as
we
would
like
it.
G
Okay,
thank
you
for
that.
We'll
obviously
wait
with
interest
to
see
what
the
results
are
in
this
proposal
going
to
the
uk
government
I
can
move
on
to
licensing
and
to
ask
you:
will
the
requirement
for
a
license
apply
to
existing,
as
well
as
new
heat
marks
and
how
will
existing
heat
and
work
heat
networks
and
their
operators
be
assimilated
into
the
licensing
system?.
K
This
is
a
very
important
point.
I
was
checking
with
various
estimates
between
800
and
1000
sort
of
heat
networks
that
are
already
up
and
running
in
scotland.
So
mr
b
team
raises
a
very
important
point.
We
understand
there
may
be
some
concerns
over
new
technical
standards
being
introduced,
which
would
then
apply
to
potentially
two
existing
networks.
K
I'd
like
to
assure
the
committee,
mr
bt,
that
we
will
be
working
with
all
existing
heat
networks
to
understand
the
implications
for
their
operations
in
the
event
in
that
event
and
to
identify
appropriate
solutions
which
can
either
be
exemptions
from
such
requirements
or
special
set
of
technical
standards
for
existing
networks.
However,
we're
not
going
to
place
any
requirements
which
would
require
placement
of
good
apparatuses,
we're
in
good
working
condition
to
to
avoid
any
kind
of
disproportionate
impacts
on
those
networks.
K
We
are
working
with
the
department
of
business,
energy
and
industrial
strategy
base
to
develop
a
common
technical
standard
that
would
apply
across
all
of
great
britain
and
we're
happy
to
provide
to
the
committee
and
members
of
the
parliament
with
further
information
on
this
in
due
course.
So
there's
as
much
visibility
about
the
ongoing
work
around
technical
standards,
which
may
impact
on
existing
networks
as
possible.
K
G
You've
actually
answered
one
of
my
questions
on
technical
standards.
I
was
going
to
ask,
but
can
I
ask
you
about
standard
commissions
which
might
be
standard
conditions
which
might
be
included
in
a
license?
So,
for
example,
important
issues
like
consumer
protection,
quality
of
service
access
to
an
ombudsman?
Would
they
be
included
as
well?
Is
it
envisaged
that
they
will
be
incorporated
in
the
licensing
process.
K
Apologies
to
mr
bt
for
not
addressing
that
in
the
the
earlier
earlier
response.
We
are
certainly
we
are
following
trying
to
follow
closely
the
approach
that
was
set
out
to
us
by
the
competition
and
market
authority
around
the
regulatory
needs
for
for
existing
heat
networks
and
trying
to
note
that
a
consumer
detriment
was
most
commonly
found
at
smaller
networks,
particularly
those
that
were
privately
owned.
And
so
we've
tried
to
avoid.
K
You
know
being
overly
prescriptive,
as
I
say,
and
we're
trying
to
make
sure
that,
in
terms
of
existing
schemes,
the
bill
does
enable
exemptions
in
terms
of
we're,
obviously
in
the
early
stages
of
developing
regulations,
but
the
range
of
factors,
for
example,
the
ownership
structure
that
could
be
considered
an
exempting
networks.
There
may
also
be
time
limited.
K
L
In
the
same,
I
would
also
say
that
you
know
in
the
event
that
that
gb
wide
legislation
didn't
come
forward.
We
we
do,
we
are
and
we
we
will
continue
to
work
with
in
the
heat,
trust,
which
is
a
consumer
standards
scheme
which
which
a
lot
of
the
large
operators
in
the
uk
are
signed
up
to.
That
includes
things
like
you
know:
transparency,
quality
of
service
responses
to
outages,
we'll
you
know
we're
confident
that
the
the
the
gby
legislation
will
materialize.
L
K
You
know
just
just
to
add
to
what
colleagues
have
said.
Just
in
setting
up
we
as
a
general
principle,
we've
tried
to
avoid
putting
the
conditions
into
the
face
of
the
bill,
and
the
bill
has
been
drafted
to
allow
conditions
to
set
out
more
detail
on
secondary
legislation
which
we
would
propose
to
bring
forward
through
affirmative
instrument,
I
believe
which
would
allow
for
appropriate
consultation
on
with
with
parliament
and
indeed
with
stakeholders
on
the
the
nature
of
those
conditions
as
they
emerge.
G
K
We
would
welcome
one
of
the
proposed
options
which
would
be
to
to
seek
to
give
scottish
ministers
the
ability
to
appoint
the
licensing
authority,
as
I've
explained
earlier
on.
Currently
it
would,
as
as
I
think,
norman
was
indicating.
Also
there
are
constraints
on
us
in
terms
of
the
current
reservation
of
powers
in
respect
of
being
able
to
appoint
off
gem
as
our
licensing
authority.
K
So
we
would
need
measures
to
be
taken
by
uk
ministers
to
allow
us
to
do
that
and
that
would,
as
a
as
I've
indicated,
we've
kept
flexibility
in
the
bill
in
case
that
legislation
doesn't
come
forward
in
the
time.
Scale
is
suggested
by
uk
ministers,
but
our
preference
would
clearly
to
be
able
to
avoid
confusion
and
to
create
a
situation
where
we
could
appoint
off-gem,
for
example,
and
we
have
had
discussions
with
off-gem
about
this
in
principle
I'll
point
off-gem
as
the
licensing
authority
for
scotland.
K
It
would
also
be
a
licensing
authority,
as
we
understand
in
england
as
well,
and
that
would
create
a
simplicity
in
the
in
the
system
and
and
with
common
technical
standards
being
applied
across
both
jurisdictions
and
obviously
create
a
propitious
market
opportunity
for
development
of
the
supply
chain
as
well.
So
these
are
all
factors
that
are
in
our
thinking
there,
but
I
hope
that
is
helpful
to
mr
bt
and
to
committee.
K
And
that's
a
hugely
important
point.
Clearly,
we've
learned
a
lot
from
other
jurisdictions,
in
particular
referencing,
denmark,
where
we've
had
close
collaboration
with
the
danish
government.
They
have
achieved
very
high
level
of
utilization
of
heat
networks
through
initially
creating
heat
networks
with
with
fossil
fuel
engines
on
them
in
the
70s,
in
response
to
the
oil
oil,
gas
price
crisis
in
the
early
1970s
and
we're
in
a
different
situation.
K
Now
we're
trying
to
develop
heat
networks
in
the
context
of
a
climate
emergency
and
trying
to
avoid
that
step
of
going
through
phaser
building
networks
are
dependent
on
fossil
fuels.
We
have
some
exciting
opportunities,
come
forward
with
the
potential
for
deployment
of
hydrogen,
for
example.
These
are
all
things
in
our
thinking,
so
we
are
looking
at
how
we
can
utilize
the
renewable
energy
where
possible,
to
make
sure
that
is
within
our
scope.
K
We
have
obviously
kept
definitions
of
heat
networks
sufficiently
broad,
as
discussed
early
on
with
in
response
to
the
convener
such
that
they
can
adapt
over
time
as
new
technology
emerges,
and
but
we're
happy
to
to
give
some
further
detail
on
that
to
mr
bt
and
the
committee.
If
that
would
be
helpful,
going
forward.
K
Clearly,
one
of
the
big
advantages
of
of
of
why
we
are
taking
forward
this
legislation
is
that
heat
networks
have
a
huge
potential
to
address
fuel
poverty.
So
we
appreciate
that
in
terms
of
the
modeling
we've
done
for
for
the
bill
and
that
we
believe
by
2050
could
be
saving
about
80
million
pounds
a
year
for
consumers
and
we
we
appreciate
that
operating
effectively
and
efficiently.
You
networks
can
save
up
to
36
on
bills
faced
by
consumers.
K
Clearly,
mr
mr
bt
is
quite
right.
We
need
to
ensure
that
as
much
visibility
is
is
out
there
around
the
benefits
of
heat
networks
and
to
obviously
monitor
and
evaluate
their
performance
of
heat
networks
as
they
are
constructed,
and
there
will
be
through
the
legislation
that
we
are
we're
discussing
today
and
the
ability
to
ensure
that
there's
appropriate
monitoring
and
evaluation
data
from
heat
networks
that
are
established
under
the
legislation.
To
inform
that.
K
Obviously,
in
advance
of
seeing
the
uk
government's
legislation
around
consumer
protection,
then
we
we
obviously
have
to
see
how
that
lands
in
terms
of
the
requirements
for
reporting,
for
example,
of
of
of
pricing
of
of
networks.
But
it's
clearly
something
both
uk
ministers
and
ourselves
are
very
conscious
of
they
need
to
try
and
make
sure
the
heat
networks
were
to
go
in
and
identified
through
the
the
heat
llgs
and
the
heat
zoning.
K
We
will
obviously
be
seeking
to
have
networks
developed
in
the
more
optimal
locations
where
they
can
impact
on
fuel
poverty
and
make
a
substantial
impact
on
socioeconomic
benefits
for
communities,
and
that
can
then
flow
through
into
hopefully
good
results
in
terms
of
data.
That
will
not
only
affirm
the
positive
reasons
why
people
join
the
heat
network,
but
encourage
others
to
join
the
network
as
well.
A
Thank
you.
I
had
thought
it
was
already
back
with
me.
However,
thank
you
for
the
clarification
to
mr
beatty
minister.
You
talk
about
the
the
danish
system,
for
example,
and
what
I
want.
I
want
to
ask
just
as
a
follow-up
to
that.
What
have
you
done
or
what
is
the
scottish
government
doing
in
terms
of
discussion
with
other
countries
where
they
have
successful
heat
networks
as
to.
A
Public
information
on
these
matters
so
partly,
of
course,
such
a
system
if
it's
a
shared
system,
which
we
tend
not
to
be
familiar
with
in
in
scotland,
apart
from
one
or
two
places
where
this
is
in
place,
is
of
course
responsible
use
of
the
system,
and
I'm
not
referring
to
some
people
need
to
keep
their
homes
warmer
than
others,
because
of
health
issues
or
whatever,
for
whatever
reason,
but
just
responsible
use
of
the
the
system.
So
that
there's
not
a
wastage.
A
I
suppose
that's
the
first
point
in
the
second
is
how
to
ensure
that
such
systems
are
100
reliable
in
the
sense
that
everyone
can
be
certain
that
if
the
system
goes
down,
it
will
immediately
be
made
to
operate
again
or
that
there's
a
backup
system.
So
these
two
points,
because
I
think
they're
fairly
crucial
in
terms
of
success,
of
any
system
or
public
acceptance
of
it
in
scotland,.
K
I
think
conveniently
in
a
couple
of
really
important
points,
because
we
have
obviously
in
the
desire
to
develop
heat
networks
as
a
contributor
to
tackling
climate
change
and
delivering
on
fuel
poverty.
We
also
want
to
make
sure
that
we
have
a
robust
system
that
protects
the
consumer
and
gives
them
confidence
that,
in
joining
the
heat
network,
they
are
not
setting
themselves
up
for
a
fall.
K
Unlike
your
your
boiler,
perhaps,
and
your
domestic
property,
where
you've
got
all
the
disadvantages
of
having
to
maintain
that
yourself
and
potential
virus
and
carbon
monoxide
risk,
there
are
a
number
of
consumer
direct
consumer
benefits
of
not
having
those
responsibilities
going
forward
with
the
wet
systems
that
tend
to
be
created
by
heating
networks.
That
risk
is
all
taken
away
from
you,
but
you
obviously
have
a
concern
to
make
sure
that
if
the
system
fails,
what
happens
and
heat
networks
tend
to
have
backup
systems
in
place.
K
So
you
may
have
a
entirely
renewable
system
which
has
a
present,
perhaps
a
gas
or
other
form
of
backup
engine
to
kick
in.
Should
a
system
fail.
Obviously,
if
the
developer
falls
into
financial
trouble,
we
also
need
to
give
confidence
to
individuals
as
to
what
happens
in
in
that
scenario.
So
a
uk
government
ourselves
are
are
taking
slightly
different
approaches.
K
I
think,
in
terms
of
the
approach
there
and
the
uk
government's
pursuing
step
in
power,
as
we've
set
in
in
the
bill
powers
around
transfers
to
to
enable
a
a
an
alternative
operator
to
take
over
a
net
heat
networks
and
that's
established
if
the
developer
gets
into
financial
difficulty
or
decides
to
dispose
of
the
network
for
whatever
reason.
So
I
believe
the
bill
does
provide
the
the
lessons
of
certainty
around
these
areas,
but
certainly
convene
if
there
are
specific
points
you
want
to
to
probe
about
happy
to
try
and
address
them.
A
K
Yeah,
I
I
take
the
point
convener
that
will
certainly
come
back
to
you
and
some
more
detailed
thinking
around
that-
and
I
appreciate
this-
is
a
new
market.
It'll,
take
a
lot
to
perhaps
educate
consumers
as
to
what
what's
involved
in
the
heat
network
and
and
and
obviously
the
benefits
to
them
of
participating
in
heat
network
and
also
the
the
importance
of
tackling
the
emissions
that
are
created
by
by
heat.
As
I
suppose
it
stands
to
reason.
K
But
I
think
this
is
a
common
problem
across
most
of
northern
europe,
where
we
are
still
very
dependent
on
fossil
fuel
systems
and
81
of
premises
in
scotland
are
still
dependent
on
gas
central
heating
as
a
primary
source
of
heat.
So
this
is
going
to
be
a
big
transformation
in
in
the
way
we
potentially
undertake
our
heating,
not
for
every
premises,
because
it
will
heat
zoning
and
the
lg's
process
will
identify
those
areas
of
scotland
where
this
is
most
appropriate.
I
K
K
I
hope
that
we
can
provide
assurance
today
that
contributing
to
the
eradication
of
fuel
poverty
has
been
an
absolute
priority
for
the
scottish
government,
as
we've
developed
the
bill,
and
this
is
reflected
obviously
in
the
the
evidence
of
witnesses
such
as
energy
action,
scotland,
as
well
in
terms
of
the
they
have
emphasized
themselves
that
they
quote
here.
We're
encouraged
to
note
the
focus
on
fuel
poverty,
and
this
appears
to
be
an
encouraging
commitment
to
co-design
this
policy.
K
Alongside
the
scottish
government's
commitment
stated
in
its
fuel
poverty
act,
unquote,
heat
networks
do
have
a
really
important
role
to
play
in
tackling
fuel
poverty.
The
cma
noted
that
the
vast
majority
heat
network
customers
face
costs
are
similar
or
lower
than
gas,
and
the
business
and
regulatory
impact
assessment
accompanying
the
bill.
Estimates
that
in
the
right
circumstances,
heat
networks
can
provide
savings
up
to,
as
I
said
earlier,
on
up
to
36
for
households
compared
to
gas
heating.
We're
keen
to
put
this
beyond
all
doubt,
though,
and
to
respond
to
these
concerns.
K
So
my
officials
and
I
will
be
happy
to
work
with
the
committee
and
individual
members
of
the
committee,
such
as
miss
grant
to
ensure
that,
and
also
with
the
fuel
poverty
panel
and
partnership
forum
over
the
coming
months,
to
put
those
reassurances
within
the
bill
itself.
Happy
to
engage
with
ms
grant
and
others
who
have
been
interested
in
that
area.
I
K
K
We're
aware
that
a
number
of
local
authorities
may
have
relatively
little
heat
network
activity
in
practice
and
we're
trying
to
keep
things
proportionate,
but
we
are
keen
to
engage
with
local
government
colleagues
around
the
development
of
the
consenting
powers
in
the
bill.
I,
in
terms
of
the
engagement
with
local
authority
members,
I
can
perhaps
bring
in
mr
hempel
just
to
refer
to
how
we're
proposing
to
take
that
forward
with
kosla
and
with
individual
local
authorities.
L
So,
as
the
minister
touched
on,
we've
commissioned
colleagues
at
zeroway,
scotland
and
to
to
guess
they've
got
the
technical
expertise
that
will
give
us
a
first
draft
on
on
how
you
identify
a
heat
network
zone.
We
expect
that
should
be
completed,
and
at
least
the
first
after
that
and
towards
the
end
of
the
year,
early
early,
2021
and
obviously
with
with
the
minister's
agreement.
I'm
sure
we'd
be
happy
to
share
that
with
with
the
committee
and
in
terms
of
how
we
take
that,
then
forward.
L
We
would
bring
that
to
to
to
our
the
working
group
are
referred
to
earlier,
which
which
has
three
local
authorities
on
it:
three
local
authority
energy
officers
to
develop
that
a
little
bit
further
and
then,
and
in
the
kind
of
longer
term,
we
would
envisage
consulting
publicly
on
that.
I
mean
working
with
as
long
as
they
said
kosla
in
particular
on
that
we
it's
possible
that
we
might
do
this
in
conjunction
with
the
the
planned
am
introduction
of
local
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategies.
K
Yeah,
with
your
permission,
just
just
add
one
for
the
point,
just
for
clarity's
sake
and
to
to
sismus
grant,
as
both
james
and
myself
have
referenced
around
heat
network
zones,
just
referencing,
specifically
section
40
of
the
bill.
The
intention
of
the
section
is
not
to
enable
scottish
ministers
to
overrule
local
authorities,
which
I
think,
where
the
sensitivity
perhaps
has
come
in
terms
of
the
evidence
or
to
disregard
local
views
in
any
ways.
K
But
we,
we
must
remember
we're
living
through
a
global
climate
emergency,
and
we
must
also
be
confident
we're
fully
able
to
identify
all
potential
heat
network
opportunities
to
address
that
climate
emergency.
So,
for
example-
and
I
was
alluding
to
this
earlier-
should
be
a
local
authority.
It's
unable
to
do
this
or
where
we
have
evidence
that
there
may
be
particularly
good
opportunities
that
have
gone
unidentified.
K
In
terms
of
the
green
recovery
and
heat
networks
bill,
we
believe
in
providing
ledges
of
framework
for
heat
network
expo
very
much
fit
the
profile
of
the
kind
of
projects
that
can
make
a
near-term
contribution
to
the
green
recovery,
as
they
are
large-scale
infrastructure
projects
with
high
up
front
capital
costs,
and
that's
something
I
know
local
authority.
Colleagues,
I've
spoken
to
are
very
much
welcome.
K
They
recognize
the
economic
impact
they
may
be
at
a
local
level
from
from
these
projects
and
once
constructed
they
are
long-lived
assets
which
will
hopefully
create
long-term
jobs
in
those
communities
as
well.
So
we
hope
it's
it's
a
positive
reason
why
we've
got
the
the
legislation
is
framed
in
the
way
it
is
to
allow
for
circumstances
where
local
authority
perhaps
needs
that
support
and
to
take
forward
network
zones.
I
K
I
think
certainly
we're
aware
of
this.
The
the
demands
have
been
put
on
on
committee
in
in
relation
to
evidence
sessions
that
have
taken
taken
so
far
so
far
in
terms
of
the
consenting
process,
we've
tried
to
put
in
as
much
flexibility
to
look
for
circumstances
where
perhaps
local
authority,
a
smaller
local
authority,
perhaps
may
not
wish
to
take
on
that
responsibility
itself.
K
I
K
For
example,
if
a
license
is
to
be
revoked,
we
believe
that
it's
important
to
remember
that
in
exercising
functions
under
the
bill,
including
those
relating
to
licensed
revocations
and
other
appeals,
licensing
authority
itself
must
act
lawfully.
And
if
we
did
not,
this
would
be
challengeable
in
the
courts.
Of
course.
K
In
that
scenario,
and
it's
we
believe
it's
important,
obviously,
that
the
appeal
mechanisms
are
clear
and
we'll
certainly
look
to
work
with
the
committee.
Taking
forward
any
recommendations
you
have
in
terms
of
the
drafting
of
the
bill.
I
don't
know
it
might
be
appropriate
to
bring
in
in
terms
of
norman
on
this
one,
with
your
permission,
convener.
M
Well,
largely
to
reiterate
what
the
minister
said
that,
obviously
there
are
various
mechanisms
in
the
bill
or
processes
which
your
car
licenses
or
consent,
and
these
the
logic
tend
to
have
mechanisms
built
into
the
process.
Some
on
the
face
of
the
bill,
some
possibly
by
regulation,
whereby
obviously,
a
developer
or
application
for
consent
for
a
license
will
have
an
opportunity
to
make
representations
to
the
moment
scottish
ministers
as
to
the
determination
of
those
applications.
M
So
the
question
would
be
what
form
of
appeal
might
there
be
and
appeals
could
either
be
essentially
like
an
administrative
appeal
where
someone
gets
to
make
the
decision
again,
but
then
they
can
alter
the
decision.
The
ministers
have
already
made
on
the
substance
of
the
issue
or,
as
is
the
minister
said,
all
the
legality
of
the
process
and
whether
ministers
have
properly
considered
all
the
matters
that
they
were
due
to
consider
and
that
appeal
would
go
to
the
courts,
which,
of
course,
is
open
until
the
legislation,
as
drafted.
M
A
K
K
If
we
can
get
the
clarity,
we're
seeking
in
terms
of
the
role
of
licensing
authority
and
the
enforcement
authority
functions,
but
yes,
I
mean
judicial
review
ultimately
is
the
is
the
is
a
course
that
would
be
available
in
circumstances
where
the
scottish
ministers
found
ourselves
as
the
enforcement
authority
and
there
needed
to
be
an
appeal
because
there's
nobody
to
appeal
above
other
than
to
the
courts.
So
that
would
be
the
situation
in
that
fallback
scenario.
A
A
A
Provisions
are
you
able
to
shed
light
on
section
32
and
the
I
mean
it's.
It's
set
out,
so
scottish
ministers
made
by
regulations,
make
provision
for
about
appeals
why
it's
not
specified
in
the
act
itself,
which
would
make
or
makes
things
clearer
if
it
is
specified
in
the
actual
act,
as
certainly
historically
would
have
been
the
case
and
often
is
the
case.
M
Well,
I
think
the
minister
really
alluded
to
this
already,
that
the
enforcement
authority
in
terms
of
section
28,
is
the
scottish
ministers
as
the
bill
is
drafted
or
such
a
person
as
ministers
made
by
regulation
designate.
So
the
regulation
provisions
are
there
to
enable
appeals
to
be
put
in
place
where
the
enforcement
authority,
not
to
be
ministers.
K
I
don't
know
if
it
helps
here
just
may
confuse
things
further,
but
you
can
obviously
come
back
to
committee
and
writing
if
it's
helpful,
but
I
think
there's
an
important
point
to
be
assuming
the
decisions
made
by
the
enforcement
authority,
which
may
of
course
obviously
be
scottish
ministers
or
under
section
20,
as
norman
was
indicating.
Scottish
ministers
meet
designing
another
body
as
an
enforcement
authority,
regardless
of
the
scottish
ministers
or
another
enforcement
authority.
K
Assuming
the
decisions
made
by
that
enforcement
authority
were
reasonable
and
lawful
and
then
the
appeal
would
have
to
be
to
body
a
person,
who's,
ultimately
greater
authority
than
the
enforcement
body
itself.
So,
hence
that's
why
I
think
if
it
was
lawful,
you
might
have
to
go
potentially
to
to
the
the
courts
to
to
to
overturn
that
decision.
K
K
But
it
is
important
to
try
and
provide
for
scenarios
where,
for
a
number
of
reasons,
it
could
be
perhaps
insolvency
of
the
operator.
It
could
be
other
other
reasons
that
the
the
heat
network
is
no
longer
able
to
to
operate
with
the
original
developer,
and
so
ultimately,
there
are.
There
are
some
circumstances
where
potentially
scottish
ministers
themselves
could
take
responsibility
for
the
operation
of
the
scheme
until
such
time
as
a
an
alternative
provider
was
identified.
K
L
Okay,
so
I
guess,
and
the
bill
is
drafted
and
the
transfer
schemes
would
apply
to
new
new
networks
that
are
built
on
the
basis
that
you
know
the
the
transfer
is
agreed
at
the
same
time,
is
the
the
heat
network
consent
being
being
awarded
or
granted
or
considered?
I
think
that's
probably
useful,
and
because
I
guess
it's
helpful
for
for
all
parties
to
understand.
L
In
the
worst
case
scenario,
you
know
what
what's
what
transfer,
what
what
changes
with
occur,
to
ensure
that
the
the
supply
of
the
heat
continues,
provisions
kind
of
relating
to
this
supplier
of
ashes
or
the
stepping
rapes.
That
minister
referred
to,
we
understand
and
and
have
been
kind
of
included
in
the
original
uk
government
consultation
on
a
market
framework
for
gb.
M
K
So
that's,
potentially
the
scottish
gas
network,
or
or
ssen,
for
example,
or
of
spain
scottish
power
energy
networks
in
terms
of
the
infrastructure
owners,
those
assets
are
run
by
a
small
number
of
companies,
but
many
many
more
do
and
and
will
in
future
own
scotland's
heat
network.
So
there's
a
bill.
K
Whereas
heat
networks
consist
of
infrastructure
assets
as
well,
so
that
both
the
service
and
the
infrastructure
are
together,
and
so
that's
why
the
the
kind
of
the
approach
we've
taken
in
the
bill
is
kind
of
modeled
more
on
on
what
would
happen
in
the
event
of
hopefully
never
happen
in
terms
of
sgn
or
sscn,
or
spend
sort
of
coming
into
difficulty.
So
it's
a.
D
L
No
though
it
applies
to
to
new
schemes,
I
think
it's
worth
saying,
though,
that
certainly
it
was
those
800
to
1100
schemes
that
we
understand
are
out
there
at
the
moment.
That's
a
that's,
a
big
number,
and
and
in
practice
that
that
equates
to
about
one
percent
of
scotland's
heat
demand,
and
so
today
is
you
know
as
a
big
number,
but
what
we
where
we
would
expect,
you
know
if
you
cannot,
if
we
really
look
at
this
bill,
is
meeting
its.
L
You
know
it's
objectives
of
maybe
getting
us
towards
the
the
range
of
70
to
somewhere
in
the
high
teens
in
terms
of
heat
demand
that
is
projected,
then
the
vast
majority
of
schemes
will
be
captured
by
these.
These
transfer
schemes
in
future.
With
this
this,
this
kind
of
safeguard
of
gb,
wide
standards
and
stepping
rights
to
come
to
to
to
support
the
existing
schemes.
K
The
point
of
view
the
stepping
rights
convener
is
is
probably
where
we
need
to
just
understand
the
interaction
between
what
you
can
come
and
bring
forward
early
next
year.
Hopefully
we'll
see
in
the
lifetime
of
this
the
passage
of
this
bill
and
and
our
own
section
seven
of
the
bill
so
that
we
can
understand
the
interactions
and
take
that
into
account.
K
So
in
that
respect,
you
know
we
have
no
reason
to
doubt
uk
minister's
willingness
to
do
that,
obviously,
with
with
covert
19
and
other
factors
as
a
possibility,
their
bill
is
delayed.
I
hope
not.
We've
certainly
had
no
indication,
I
think
so
far,
that
there
is
intention
to
delay
the
bill
in
terms
of
engagement
with
officials,
but
you
know
that
would
provide
that,
hopefully,
that
safety
net
for
those
who
are
in
existing
networks
and
obviously
our
legislation
would
deal
with
with
the
new
networks,
as
mr
hempel
is
outlined.
K
D
You
final
question
on
the
overall
regulation
of
the
localized
monopolies
of
of
heat
networks:
do
you
see
a
conflict
potentially
between
ensuring
the
lowest
possible
price
for
the
customer
and
ensuring
the
best
rate
of
return
and
therefore
most
attractive
investment
market
for
companies
and
others
to
run
heat
networks
in
scotland?
Well,.
K
I
think
it's
I
know,
certainly
from
your
own
background,
mr
gold.
Now
you've
got
a
strong
interest
in
sort
of
regulating
matters
and
you'll
you'll
understand
the
very
much
the
nature
of
creating
natural
monopolies
in
this
situation
is
certainly
something
that
we've
been
very
mindful
of
and
trying
to
make
sure
not
only
in
in
the
presence
of
any
gb
wide
consumer
protection
framework,
but
also
in
terms
of
steps.
We
are
taking
ourselves
around
the
the
the
lease
the
zoning
and
also
the
the
the
application
for
consents
that
in
the
consenting
process.
K
As
long
as
the
effects
effectively
the
payback
of
the
infrastructure
investment
takes
place
and
thereafter,
potentially
other
operators
could
take
over
the
operation
of
that
network.
Should
there
be
a
a
a
potentially
more
attractive
proposition
there,
and
I
think
that
might
be
an
area
that
that
we
certainly
welcome
the
committee's
views
on
in
terms
of
the
the
approach
that
we
are,
we
are
taking
here
to
try
and
ensure
that
we
avoid
any
higher
costs
for
for
consumers
in
practice.
K
Most
heat
networks,
as
alluded
to
earlier
on,
have
demonstrated
ability
to
be
at
least
competitive
with
gas
and
ideally
cheaper
than
gas,
and,
if
well,
designed
and
in
the
right
place,
which
hopefully,
the
leds
and
heat
zoning
will
ensure,
takes
place
potential
for
contribution
to
to
reducing
bills
by
up
to
36
percent.
So
I
would
hope
that
would
be
extremely
rare
for
there
to
even
be
any
suggestion
of
that
natural
monopoly
was
leading
to
higher
costs
for
consumers.
K
In
practice,
I
would
hope
it
would
be
a
degree
to
which
there
are
either
small
decreases
in
cost
or
big
decreases
in
cost,
depending
on
how
well
that
heat
network
is
run
and
designed.
So
I
think,
hopefully,
with
the
approach
we're
taking
we'll
destroy
those
principles
right
for
the
very
start
of
the
process.
D
Thank
you,
minister.
Is
there
any
analysis
being
conducted
over
consumer
confidence
issues
around
not
having
a
boiler
in
the
the
person's
home
and
moving
to
a
district
heat
network?
Obviously
there's
some
existing
heat
networks
there.
I
was
just
wondering
if
that
was
a
barrier
or
or
not
something
to
be
concerned
about.
K
K
But
I
think
in
addressing
the
the
point
the
convener
has
asked
us
to
in
terms
of
coming
back,
perhaps
with
more
information
about
public
engagement
and
how
we
would
build
the
case
for
heat
networks,
which
is
an
important
point.
We
can
hopefully
come
forward
with
a
way
in
which
communication
of
the
benefits
of
the
heat
network
are
explicit,
transparent
and
understandable
for
the
consumer.
So
they
can
make
informed
choices
about
whether
to
join
the
network.
K
As
you
know,
we're
not
proposing
to
compel
consumers
to
join
networks
for
a
number
of
reasons,
including
echr,
but
we
are
certainly,
I
think,
it'd
be
in
everyone's
interest,
including
the
investor
to
make
sure
that
there
was
a
and
indeed
the
licensing
authority,
to
make
sure
there's
clarity
about
the
benefits
to
the
consumer
of
an
heat
network.
So
they
are
able
to
make
an
informed
choice
which
will
hopefully
help
the
environment
as
well
as
help
their
bottom
line.
K
A
Yes,
I'm
I'm
conscious
of
time
and
we're
grateful
for
everyone's
enthusiasm
on
this
topic,
but
I'd
like
to
try
and
get
all
committee
members
in
and
minister
on
the
on
the
point
that
was
raised
with
you
about
existing
heat
networks
and
the
requirement
of
heat
network
consent.
I
mean,
I
think,
that's
sections
17-18
of
the
bill,
presumably
in
terms
of
section
18,
the
scottish
government
will
be
looking
to
simply
issue
either
exemptions
or
licenses
to
existing
heat
operators,
subject
to
them
maintaining
certain
standards.
K
E
K
So
if
we're
serious
about
tackling
climate
change,
we
absolutely
have
to
to
hit
this
school
clear
fuel
poverty
is
a
a
statutory
obligation
for
the
government
and
the
statute
to
fuel
poverty
targets
as
well,
and
I
think
we're
all
aware
of
the
rising
cost
of
energy
for
consumers
and
particularly
those
who
are
dependent
on
on
electric
only
heating.
There
will
be
opportunities,
perhaps
to
give
them
lower
cost
of
supplies
through
heat
networks,
but
also
they
need
to
decarbonize
from
our
gas
networks
over
time
as
well.
K
So
the
estimates
we
have
are
that
by
2050
and
model
I
think
about
99.7
sort
of
terrible
hours
of
heat
being
provided
through
heat
networks
annually.
This
would,
I
think,
that's
about
12
12
off
so
so
if
we
were
to
meet
12
percent,
which
is
about
mid-range
in
terms
of
7
to
17
percent
range
that
mr
hempel
was
referring
to
earlier
on
in
terms
of
potential.
K
So
we
also
believe
there
are
consumer
benefits
to
to
take
into
account
in
terms
of
removing
the
risk,
almost
at
a
stroke
of
anyone
having
any
kind
of
carbon
monoxide,
poisoning
risks
or
the
hassle
of
replacing
their
boiler
on
a
every
every
defined
period.
10
15
years,
maintenance
of
the
boilers
and
being
potentially
left
by
any
heat
at
all
and
which
is
obviously
a
risk
for
consumers.
With
a
heat
network.
You
have
a
backup
supply,
so
there
would
be
always
a
means
of
providing
an
alternative
heating
supply
to
consumers.
K
K
So
I
think
there's
multiple
benefits
there,
but
primarily
it's
about
tackling
fuel
poverty
and
if
we
can
save
in
the
best
networks
up
to
36
percent
of
someone's
heating
costs,
that's
going
to
have
a
huge
benefit
for
a
family,
that's
struggling
to
make,
make
a
living
and
and
obviously
allow
them
to
to
have
a
hopefully,
a
warmer
home
that
will,
we
know,
helps
with
health
and
education.
There's
a
range
of
associated
benefits
that
come
from
that
investment.
E
Yeah,
I
totally
agree,
there's
always
a
comment
about
heating
or
eating,
so
this
could
be
good
for
consumers
and
could
also
be
good
for
the
for
the
climate.
Is
there
a
duty
on
local
authorities
to
consider
undertaking
the
designation
of
zones
will
lead
to
a
lot
of
studies
but
very
little
action?
That's
the
concern
that
I
have.
What
action
will
the
scottish
government
take
to
ensure
that
zones
are
designated
and
networks
are
built,
and
we
really
mean
what
we
say
in
this
bill.
K
Well,
I
think
I
think
we
do
mean
what
we
see.
I
think
some
of
the
earlier
questions
allude
to
to
to
some
of
the
the
the
the
powers
that
are
in
the
bill
in
terms
of
scottish
ministers
potentially
also
taking
on
you
know
the
potential
for
undertaking
heat
network
zoning.
If
there
was
an
issue
with
maybe
perhaps
not
being
delivered
properly
or
there
was
an
opportunity,
it
was
identified
that
hadn't
been
captured
in
the
heat
network,
zoning
and
the
lds.
K
So
we
have
the
ability,
we're
obviously
wanting
to
work
very
closely
with
local
government
colleagues,
in
that
respect,
or
maybe
potentially
smaller
local
authorities,
there
could
be
larger
local
authorities
who
decide
they
don't
want
to
take
on
this
responsibility.
So
clearly,
scottish
ministers
would
perhaps
have
a
more
direct
role
in
making
sure
that
information
was
provided,
but
we
all
are
in
a
space
where
there's
a,
I
think,
a
very
big
economic
prize
to
be
won
here
in
terms
of
investment
in
terms
of
in
developing
heat
networks,
the
potential
for
local
employment
opportunities.
K
I
know
local
authorities-
I've
spoken
to
are
very
keen
to
see
heat
networks
develop
in
their
areas
and
to
see
the
potential
for
long-term,
sustained
jobs
in
their
communities
because
the
nature
of
the
project.
So
I
think,
there's
a
number
of
reasons
to
believe
that
local
partners
would
be
very
enthusiastic
about
doing
this.
K
They
may
need
support
if
they're,
a
smaller
local
authority
or
or
if
it's
a
new
area
for
them
clearly,
and
we
have
made
commitments
to
resource
some
of
the
costs
that
would
come
with
with
developing
the
the
the
lg's
and
the
heat
zoning.
But
we
clearly
would
want
to
work
with
individual
local
authorities
if
they
were
struggling
to
deliver
these
functions,
to
ensure
that
they
get
the
support
they
need.
Could.
E
There
be
an
obligation
to
acquire
local
authorities
to
state
whether
they
intend
to
issue
zone
permits
or
to
publish
a
commercialization
plan,
help
to
provide
further
certainty
and
the
phil
and
I'll
roll.
This
other
question
into
that
question
and
what
circumstances
does
the
scottish
government
expect
to
designate
a
heat
network
zone
under
section
14?
Does
it
expect
that
this
will
be
a
regular
occurrence.
K
I
would
hope
it
wouldn't
be
a
a
regular
occurrence
in
terms
of
you
know,
the
point
that
we
have
just
made
in
terms
of
the
the
zoning.
As
I
said
earlier
on,
it's
our
intention
to
avoid
over
ruling
local
authorities.
We've
got
some
powers
in
there,
obviously
or
to
disregard
local
views,
which
I
know
would
cause
ill
feeling
and
sense.
K
So
an
error
of
a
mission
rather
than
done
deliberately
kind
of
er
objecting
to
something
being
in
the
zoning
that
there
would
be
a
need
for
scottish
ministers
to
carry
out
that
function
and
as
a
reference
to
the
early
remarks
ms
grant
was
making.
I
just
want
to
emphasize
that
we'd
obviously
be
in
with
consultation
with
the
local
authority
themselves.
So
we
wouldn't
ignore
the
local
authority
in
performing
that
function
and
indeed,
we'd
also
consult
with
other
local
persons,
a
relevant
person
such
as
the
local
community
itself,
prior
to
implementation
of
zone.
K
If
we
had
to
step
in
in
that
in
that
way,
under
section
40
and
as
I
say,
I
think
in
practice,
it'd
probably
be
very
rare
that
we
would
have
to
do
that.
Local
authorities
seem
to
be
genuinely
enthusiastic
about
the
local
employment
opportunities
and
obviously
how
this
integrates
with
the
local
development
planning
process
as
well.
K
E
E
Allow
for
adequate
planning
and
preparation
should
the
statute
provisions
for
local
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategies
come
have
come
first
and
what
role
will
communities
and
local
authorities
have
in
relation
to
the
planning
and
designation
of
heat
networks
outside
the
local
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategies,
because
it
all
comes
down-
and
you
know
that's
only
too
well,
minister,
it
all
comes
down
to
local.
I
thought
local
communities
and
local
authorities
what
they
want,
and
you
know
to
ensure
that
that
they
get
what
they
want.
K
Yeah,
I
think
you
know
mr
law
you're
absolutely
right
about
that.
I
mean
clearly:
we've
got
to
see
a
situation
where
heat
networks
are
are
happening
in
the
right
places.
According
to
properly
evidenced
elies,
we
have
been
doing
an
exercise
where,
by
all
32,
scottish
local
authorities
have
been
engaged
in
piloting
ld's
in
the
local
area.
We're
learning
a
lot
from
that
about
the
resourcing
the
local
authorities
have
their
ability
to
deliver
them
the
technical
aspects
of
delivering
local
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategies
at
a
local
level
as
well.
K
F
Thanks
very
much
convener
minister,
you
previously
said
you
didn't
want
to
use
compulsion
or
an
obligation
to
connect
to
a
network,
and
I
just
wonder
if
you
could
explain
your
thinking
in
that,
because
I
mean
it
seems
to
me
if
I
replace
my
boiler,
that's
an
individual
decision
that
doesn't
affect
anyone
else,
but
a
heat
network
by
its
very
definition
is
a
community
asset.
It's
a
community
thing
and
therefore
you
know,
is
there
not
an
argument
for
a
bit
of
compulsion
in
here
and
a
bit
of
obligation
to
connect.
K
I
certainly
recognize
I
mean
from
the
outset
we've
in
terms
of
the
expert
working
group
and
and
the
heat
networks
group
that
we've
established
more
recently,
there's
been
some
debate
around,
and
indeed
this
is
featured
in
the
evidence.
The
committee
about
the
degree
to
which
we
can
mandate
connections
to
the
network.
K
We
obviously
are
taking
forward
this
discussion
in
the
context
of
a
fairly
complex
legal
landscape
that
we
have
both
in
terms
of
reserve
powers,
but
also
echr
and
other
considerations
that
have
to
be
taken
into
account
in
terms
of
the
obligation
to
to
connect-
and
I
might
be
helpful,
cleaner
appreciate
time
is
tight.
But
if
I
can
set
a
bit
of
detail,
because
I
think
this
is
going
to
be
quite
important
for
debate
going
forward
about
the
the
consideration
of
this,
I
can't
obviously
disclose
legal
advice.
K
It's
more
fundamentally
requirement
on
the
owner
or
the
occupier
of
the
building,
to
use,
and
indeed
to
pay
for
the
heat
from
that
network,
and
this
would
also
appear
to
require
obligations
on
the
heat
network
operator
to
supply
heat
as
well.
So
the
power
to
carry
it
works
to
alter
another
person's
property
without
their
permission,
and
indeed
in
the
face
of
objection,
which
might
potentially
be
a
situation
that
might
arise.
K
I
know
it's
but
legalese,
but
something
that
the
community
will
be
very
comfortable
with,
but
I
hope
it's
trying
to
set
out
that
you
know
that
we
have
some
really
quite
complex
ledges
of
kind
of
landscape
here
that
we're
trying
to
undertake
this.
You
know
there's
the
engagement
of
protections
of
echr
is
not,
of
course,
of
itself
a
bar
to
mandatory
connection,
it's
possible
to
both
interfere
with
property
rights
and
comply
with
echr,
provided
it
can
be
shown.
K
I
would
like
to
be
connected
to
networks,
so
we're
trying
to
be
as
proportionate
and
balanced
in
the
approach
we've
taken
to
this
as
possible.
I
hope
it's
helpful
to
the
committee
to
set
out
the
some
of
the
concerns
we
have
around
echr
and
apologize
for
taking
so
long
an
answer
convener.
But
I
think
it
would
be
helpful
just
to
send
that
out
to
the
committee.
F
F
Other
other
options.
You
know
carrot
and
stick
kind
of
thing,
because
I
believe
in
denmark,
for
example,
there's
this
kind
of
standing
charge
if
a
building
could
a
connect
but
chooses
not
to
connect
and
no
matter
whether
we
could
use
the
rate
system
or
or
something
like
that.
To
kind
of
you
know,
penalize
people
who
choose
not
to
join
in
for
for
no
good
reason,
even
though
by
not
telling
them,
but
at
least
they're
going
to
have
to
pay
more.
K
I
mean
maybe
and
invite
colleagues
to
to
to
come
on
to
the
issue
that
you're
raising
regards
to
denmark
an
example.
That's
been
used
there,
but
certainly
what
we
are
trying
to
recognize
in
the
point
that
that
you
make
mr
mason
around
anchor
tenants.
We
have
looked
at
you
know,
for
example,
the
the
building
assessment
reports
that
we
would.
We
would
require
public
sector
potential
anchor
tenants
to
undertake
as
a
means
of
identifying
other,
larger
kind
of
and
we've
seen,
for
example,
in
glenrothes.
K
The
important
role
that
fife
council
is
playing
in
delivery
of
that
project,
which
is
originally
a
five
house
and
some
other
key
premises
and
five
council
operate,
including
a
leisure
center
and
and
a
care
home
being
connected
up
to
the
network.
And
that's
provided
you
know
the
investor
certainty,
the
demand
load
onto
the
network
and
hopefully
it
will
grow
from
there
into
residential
areas
and
to
other
business
premises.
K
So
the
point
you
make
is
absolutely
critical
in
terms
of
making
a
viable
case
for
a
network
investment,
a
local
level,
so
we're
trying
to
look
at
how
we
can
work
with
the
public
sector
initially
around.
You
know
having
to
undertake
business
the
the
building
assessment
report
to
inform
that
decision
as
to
whether
it
would
be
a
sensible
thing
or
not
to
connect
up
to
to
heat
network
when
it
comes
to
individual
consumers.
K
We
obviously
have
also
the
not
just
the
echr
aspects,
but
also
the
reserve
powers
as
well
as
we've.
I
think
the
most
likely
landing
point
is
there'll,
be
a
gb
wide
consumer
protection
framework
that
we
are
have
a
role
in
in
in
appointing
a
licensing
authority
to
oversee
in
scotland
and
to
take
on
that
responsibility.
L
Yeah,
so
I
guess
this-
this
has
been
the
the
major
issue
that
we've
we've
really
kind
of
grappled
with,
and
I
guess
internally
and
with
with
our
working
group
and
and
other
stakeholders-
and
I
would
probably
recently
add
that
you
know
it's
not
just
the
developers
that
have
advocated
for
this.
You
know
to
be
fair.
We've
seen
some
some
comment
and
support
from
from
public
sector
organizations
as
well,
and
it's
probably
just
worth
mentioning
for
balance.
L
Maybe
my
colleague
on
the
line,
we're
selecting,
maybe
talk
more
about
the
the
european
aspects
of
that,
but
I
guess
we
would
also
point
to
the
fact
that
you
know
we've
got
npf
for
coming
up.
We've
got
the
the
existing
powers.
We've
got
an
existing
commitment
to
non-domestic
rates,
relief
out
to
2032
coming
as
well
and
there's
new
powers
under
the
non-domestic
rates
act
of
2020
as
well.
That
could
be
employed.
L
K
A
N
Thank
you
very
much
for
being
here,
so
we
have
looked
at
the
different
european
examples
of
the
mandatory
connection
and
in
fact
we
have
examined
the
danish
model
quite
closely,
because
we
were
told
that
this
is
something
that
worked
over
the
years
and
in
fact
that
works
on
the
basis
of
a
compulsory
standing
charge.
That,
even
though
you
are
not
using
a
hit
network,
you
still
need
to
pay
a
standing
charge
if
to
contribute
to
this
communal
communal
solution
and
communal
infrastructure.
N
We
have
looked
at
this,
but
it
it
sort
of
brings
a
lot
of
different,
complex
questions
as
to
whether
it's
fair
to,
if
that
additional
charges,
when
we
are
already
talking
here
quite
a
lot
about
fuel
poverty
and
how
we
can
manage
this
challenge,
where
we
do
not
have
those
consumer
protections
that
we
can
provide
just
now
for
the
bill,
and
there
was
an
example
in
some
of
the
german
municipalities
where
there
was
a
mandatory
connection.
But
there
wasn't
consumer
protection
and
that
led
to
some
significant
challenges
for
consumers.
N
N
Another
examples
from
I
believe,
norway,
where,
when
the
planning
system
was
used
and
and
as
as
james
mentioned
previously,
that
could
be
done
outside
of
the
bill
through
through
existing
legislation.
So
there
are
different
options,
but
none
of
them
was
a
perfect
match
for
us
and
as
as
it
was
outlined
previously,
all
of
them
are
carrying
some
risks
with
them.
H
Minister,
I
would
like
to
explore
a
bit
about
multiple
parties.
How
will
projects
where
there
are
actually
multiple
parties
be
regulated?
You
know,
for
example,
scottish
water
in
stirling.
Will
there
be
a
degree
of
flexibility
in
the
consensus
and
regulatory
frameworks
to
accommodate
projects
of
this
nature?.
L
I
might
deferred
in
tongue
to
my
colleague
emma
as
a
guest.
Just
initially.
I
think
I
guess
what's.
My
starting
point
is
that
the
regulation
applies
to
the
the
kind
of
licensed
party,
and
I
guess
subsequent
to
that,
and
we
would
expect
that
that,
in
you
know
those
those
obligations
would
apply
to
any
subcontractors
and
and
the
the
licence
holder,
for
example,
would
be
held
accountable
for
the
the
subsequent
actions
of
any
and
the
the
need
for
that
subcontractor
to
meet
those
obligations.
N
The
the
energy
center
and
the
sterling
council
is
responsible
for
the
supply
of
of
of
the
heat
to
the
properties,
and
that
is
quite
a
common
model
where
you
would
have
a
party
that
is
responsible
for
heat
generation,
and
then
there
is
another
party
that,
for
example,
is
is
responsible
for
for
moving
the
water
around
and,
and
they
are
monitoring
the
business
as
james
outlined.
We
would
be
licensing.
One
major
party
and
that
party,
as
is
set
out
in
the
bill,
would
be
the
one
responsible
for
supply
of
heat.
N
So
we
would
just
then
and
need
to
make
sure
that
any
subsequent
parties
that
are
involved
in
this
heat
network
are
have
to
comply
with
the
conditions
of
the
license,
and
that
would
be
responsibility
of
the
licensee
to
oversee
it.
So
we
don't
want
to
hinder
any
business
models
because
they
are
evolving
and,
as
we
said
previously,
this
is
an
emerging
market
and
there
will
be
different
models,
some
of
which
involve
a
heat
network
which
is
fully
vertically
integrated,
even
with
a
production
of
a
fuel.
N
If
it's
a
biomass
boiler,
for
example,
so
we
don't
want
to
hinder
that
if
that's
the
most
efficient
way
of
delivering
heat.
But
we
are
also
recognizing
that,
where
there
are
multiple
parties
there
is
has
to
be
a
party
that
is
sort
of
a
responsible
party,
and
it
has
to
then
subsequently
be
bound
by
conditions
and
all
the
contractors
will
then
have
to
be
bound
by
conditions
as
well.
So
I
hope
that
answers
the
question.
K
Well,
I
think,
as
as
has
been
outlined
as
an
example
in
sterling.
Obviously,
we
have,
as
james
has
alluded
to
with
single
license
holder,
potentially
subcontractors
they're
obviously
bound
by
conditions
of
their
licence
and
if
they
were
failing
to
deliver
on
the
conditions
they're
licensed,
including
obviously
how
they
act
responsibly
in
relation
to
consumers,
and
that
would
be
potentially
territory
where
the
licensing
authority
would
have
to
take
action
against.
K
Ultimately,
the
potential
ultimate
sanction
of
revocation
of
a
licence,
which
is
subject
to
appeal.
Of
course,
if
there
was
a
failure
to
protect
the
interests
of
consumers,
obviously
we
are
in
a
slightly
in
the
dark.
We
know
the
general
direction
that
uk
government's
going
with
regard
to
consumer
protection
framework
that
would
apply
across
gb
and
we're
comfortable
with
the
general
thrust
of
what's
being
provided
there.
K
We
see
the
devils
in
the
detail
as
with
any
legislation,
of
course,
but
hopefully
there'll
be
a
sound
underpinning
in
terms
of
consumer
protection
framework,
plus
the
role
of
the
licensing
authority
and
enforcement
authority
in
ensuring
that
the
conditions
of
the
license
are
met.
So
I
don't
know
that
you
know
kind
of
in
a
single
bullet
kind
of
addresses,
the
point
that
that
that
miss
harris
is
making,
but
hopefully
give
confidence
that
there
there
is
obviously
the
ability,
as
james
is
outlining,
where
there's
multiple
parties
involved
with
through
a
single
license.
K
L
It's
probably
maybe
worth
mentioning
as
well
when
we
come
to
specific
sites-
and
you
know
we,
you
know,
obligations
could
be
attached
to
the
the
heat
network
consent.
You
know,
and
if
there
was
a
you
know,
maybe
a
change
in
the
consent,
holder
or
the
person,
the
primary
responsibility
for
for
that
site
and
that
consent,
and
you
know
that
that
consent
would
transfer
to
to
those
to
the
subsequent
person.
C
Remotely,
I
wonder
if
I
could
ask
the
minister
about
one
of
the
more
exciting
parts
of
the
bill
and
that's
about
building
assessment
reports,
and
that
part
of
the
bill,
minister,
is
about
local
authorities
facing
the
viability
of
connecting
their
existing
buildings
to
heat
networks.
Does
this
mean?
Could
you
clarify?
Does
this
mean
that
it's
only
public
buildings
that
will
be
covered.
C
K
K
As
exciting
before,
so
that's
that's
very
positive
indeed
for
mr
coffee
but
yeah,
we
we
have.
Indeed
we
place
our
duty
initially
on
public
sector
building
owners
to
undertake
an
assessment
of
the
viability
of
their
buildings,
to
connect
a
heat
network
and
obviously
with
the
aim
to
ensure
sufficient
and
reliable
data
is
available
to
identify
and
sustain
robust
heat
networks,
network
zones
and
the
reason
for
the
initial
focus
in
public
sector
buildings
rather
than
on
public
private
and
community
buildings,
as
mr
coffey
has
said,
is,
is
twofold.
K
Not
only
will
this
create
a
substantial
data
source,
but
it
will
help
public
sector
building
owners
to
identify
whether
connection
to
a
low-carbon
heat
network
is
an
option
to
help
compliance
with
their
own
duties
under
the
climate
change,
scotland
act
and,
secondly,
public
sector
buildings
are
considered
by
the
sector
to
be
optimal
buildings
around
which
to
anchor
a
heat
network.
I
referenced
this
point
earlier
on
in
response
to,
I
think
mr
mason.
K
That's
because
they're
usually
secure
in
the
long
term,
building
owners
or
tenants,
and
they
often
have
substantial
and
very
predictable
demand
for
heat
as
well,
which
helps
with
the
modeling
for
the
heat
network,
and
this
gives
greater
confidence
that
it
will
be
used
and
when
it
will
be
used
enabling
networks
to
be
efficiently
designed.
In
turn,
the
bill
provides
for
the
duty
to
be
extended
further
to
on
other
non-domestic
buildings.
K
Should
heat
networks
find
it
challenging
to
identify
other
suitable
anchor
loads
through
commercial
negotiations
which
obviously
at
the
present?
If
we're
just
focusing
on
building
assessment
reports
for
public
buildings,
there
would
be
probably
a
need
for
just
negotiation
between
heatwork
network
developers
and
and
and
locally
non-domestic
commercial
building
owners.
K
But
there
is
the
power
potentially
to
extend
it
and
given
the
economic,
the
current
economic
and
financial
challenges
facing
business
in
scotland
at
this
time,
we've
taken
the
view
that
care
must
be
taken
not
to
add
to
this
burden
at
this
moment
in
time.
But
there
is
scope
to
do
so
in
future,
should
it
prove
necessary
and
currently,
under
the
assessment
of
energy
performance
of
non-domestic
buildings.
K
Scotland
regulations,
owners
of
larger
non-domestic
buildings
over
a
thousand
square
meters
are
required
to
undertake
an
assessment,
the
energy
performance
when
the
property
is
sold
or
rented
to
a
new
tenant
which
contains
much
of
the
information
that
would
be
required
should
building
assessment
reports
be
extended
to
them.
So
hopefully
it
wouldn't
be
too
onerous
for
those
building
owners
to
take
on
that
responsibility.
Should
we
choose
at
some
point
in
the
future
to
extend
it
to
them.
C
Thank
you
very
much
for
that.
That
was
very
thorough.
Oh
thank
you
for
that.
I
could
ask
another
question:
please
about
energy
performance
certificates
these
these
have
been
in
place
for
quite
a
number
of
years,
now,
probably
from
2007
onwards,
and
what
exactly
will
be
in
a
building
assessment
report
that
isn't
already
in
an
energy
performance
certificate
report.
So
how
do
we
strengthen
one?
We've
already
got
something:
that's
pretty
similar.
L
Yeah,
yes,
I
appreciate
that
the
the
energy
performance
certificates
have
come
up
quite
a
few
times
in
evidence
that
the
the
committee's
heard
today,
but
just
it's,
maybe
just
worth
us
clarifying
that
you
know-
there's
certainly
nothing
within
the
bill
of
the
the
policy
memorandum
that
sets
out
that
we
will
be
using
or
relying
on
epcs
as
part
of
the
building
assessment
report,
a
methodology,
and
it's
maybe
worth
updating
the.
I
guess
the
methodology
for
determining
you
know
how
you
undertake
this
and
build
an
assessment
report.
L
Our
colleagues
at
zeroway,
scotland,
are
currently
developing
that
that
methodology
for
us
with
the
ministers
agreement,
I'm
sure
we'll
be
we'd,
be
happy
to
provide
that
to
to
the
committee
and
due
course,
but
I
guess
just
to
get
to
give
you
about
even
an
early
indication
and
we,
you
know,
we
don't
expect
this
to
be
a
kind
of
resource,
intensive
exercise,
and
we
envision
this.
It's
that
the
role
of
the
content
about
an
assessment
report.
L
You
know
we
envisage
it
be
done
by
like
a
building,
building
manager
or
facilities
manager,
and
it
would
contain
things
that
are
fairly.
You
know
readily
available
to
to
to
those
those
people
and
such
as
their
heating
bill
and
and
through
their
climate
change,
reporting
duties
and
so
things
things
such
as
you
know,
their
annual
energy
consumption,
whether
the
whether
the
building
uses
a
wet
system
and
like
like
radiators
and
things
like
that.
These
are
these
are
kind
of
important
factors
for
the
the
developer
to
know
and
to
understand.
L
C
C
Presidential
premises,
I
think,
depend
on
gas,
central
heating
systems
moment
and
the
report
that
we
got
in
from
denmark
there,
which
I
don't
have
a
chance
to
read
all
of
it,
but
it
suggests
that
two-thirds
of
all
of
their
households
are
connected
to
district
eating
systems.
It's
quite
a
catch-up
journey
that
we're
on
in
scotland.
Isn't
it
and
are
you
confident
that
we
can
close
our
gap
like
that?
K
I
think
a
large
part
of
the
the
kind
of
surge
in
heat
network
being
established
across
denmark
happened
in
the
early
well
mid,
mid
70s
onwards,
as
I
mentioned
earlier,
in
terms
of
using
natural
gas
as
a
as
a
fuel,
to
effectively
remove
the
responsibility
for
having
an
individual
boiler
in
someone's
premises
and
create
a
heat
network,
but
with
a
very
low
cost
fuel.
And
so
you
know
it's.
K
K
We're
going
to
have
to
try
and
do
this
in
a
in
a
different
way,
a
different
era
and
without
the
advantage
of
having
a
very
cheap,
indeed
very
cheap,
initially
source
of
fuel,
to
do
that
in
terms
of
form
of
natural
gas,
and
so
that
will
be
a
challenge
for
us.
There's
various
estimates.
I
think
that
both
james
and
myself
are
referred
to
earlier
on
the
range
of
between
17
and
17.
K
It
doesn't
sound
very
high
in
comparison
to
denmark,
but
reflects
our
rurality,
the
nature
of
the
kind
of
communities
in
which
it's
felt
that
local
heat
networks
might
actually
provide
a
a
viable
and
competitive
alternative
heating
system.
I
would
hope
in
practice
we
might
be
able
to
overachieve
on
those
those
figures.
Clearly,
if
we
identify
through
local
heat
and
energy
efficiency
strategies,
that
there
is
a
larger
share
of
scotland's
communities,
which
is
you
know,
a
heat
network
would
be
a
viable
and
indeed
attractive,
opportunity
for
communities
to
get
ideally
renewable
heat.
K
Then
I
would
be
as
a
minister
or
my
successors,
I'm
sure
would
be
absolutely
enthusiastic
about
pursuing
that.
So,
but
what
we're
trying
to
do
is
be
realistic
in
terms
of
the
range
that
provided
we've
provided
costings
and
the
benefits
based
on
midpoint
of
that
range
around
12,
and
hopefully
we
can
overachieve
on
that
in
practice.
K
But
who
knows
where
we
can
go
with
with
hydrogen
potentially
being
an
attractive
opportunity
that
may
provide
us
with
a
useful
fuel
going
forward
and
that's
something
that
clearly
we're
going
to
look
at
in
the
context
of
our
wider
heat
decarbonization.
The
role
of
hydrogen
and
other
bio
gases,
for
example,
in
providing
alternatives,
hope.
C
J
Whiteman
thanks
very
much
convener,
so
there's
been
quite
a
bit
of
discussion
about
denmark
and
I
just
want
to
open
up
some
questions
about
governance,
because
in
the
the
delegated
parish
report
says,
you
have
45
regulation
making
powers
in
this
bill
in
total,
there's
somewhere
in
the
region
of
60
to
70
ministerial
powers
in
this
bill,
and
that
includes
the
important
ministerial
powers
of
licensing
and
consenting.
By
contrast,
local
authorities
have
got
five
now.
Denmark's
mentioned
the
minister
mentioned
denmark.
Denmark's
got
98
municipalities
who
are
the
heat
planning
authority.
K
Well,
I
suppose
I
should
set
out
from
the
outset
we've
we've
not
aimed
to
take
a
radically
different
approach
from
denmark
in
that
respect.
So
you
know:
we've
landed
where
we
have
based
on
the
the
working
of
the
the
working
group
and
the
heat
networks
and
working
group
as
well
in
terms
of
the
consensus
around
the
kind
of
powers
that
are
needed
and
the
distribution
of
them
we
do
rely
heavily
on
delegated
powers.
Mr
whiteman
is
is
right
to
identify
that.
K
We
look
to
other
markets,
particularly
utilities
such
as
gas,
electricity
and
water,
and
we
see
those
regulatory
systems
have
developed
over
a
number
of
years
and
through
multiple
pieces
of
legislation,
and
we
haven't
got
that
luxury
here,
we're
trying
to
do
it
to
save
from
scratch
and
we're
dealing
with
a
complex
technology
or
technologies.
Plural.
K
Sorry,
so
you
know
certainly
from
the
point
of
view
of
the
response
from
the
delegated
powers
and
law
reform
committee,
as
I
understand
it,
and
they
had
raised
only
one
question
with
us
and
the
use
of
delegated
powers
in
the
bill
and
seemed
comfortable
with
that
in
terms
of
the
balance.
Obviously,
we
have
happy
to
engage
and
see
the
committee's
recommendations
around
the
balance
of
responsibilities
between
scottish
ministers
and
local
authorities.
K
If
there
are
obviously
a
response
to
ms
grant
and
others,
we've
tried
to
set
out
how
we
would
want
to
engage
with
local
authorities
and
local
communities
and
trying
to
create
a
consistency
of
approach
across
scotland
possibility.
Heat
networks
may
go
across
local
authority
boundaries
as
well,
there's
a
number
of
different
permutations,
particularly
around
suburban
areas
and
urban
settlements,
and
we
have
struck
the
balance
we
have.
But
clearly,
if
the
committee
feels
that
the
balance
is
wrong,
then
then
it
would
obviously
be
keen
to
hear
from
from
the
committee.
K
L
Yeah,
I
suppose
norway
is
another
example
that
we've
looked
at
and
at
least
initially
norway
started
with
a
more
government
or
essentially
led
approach,
and
I
think,
over
gradually
over
time,
the
responsibility
for
for
the
system
and
devolve
to
local
authorities.
I
guess
the
the
bill
allows
for
the
regulations
to
to
change
the
the
enforcement
authority
from
the
scottish
ministers
to
another
person,
so
you
know,
I
guess
the
road
the
door's
not
closed
to
that
over
time.
I
suppose.
J
Thanks
and
also
in
denmark,
the
heat
distribution
network
is
owned
predominantly
by
municipalities
and
co-ops
consumer
co-ops,
and
there's
also
a
legal,
not-for-profit
requirement
in
operating
the
network.
Again,
this
looks
like
a
very
centralized
model.
Minister
ministers
consenting
large
multinational
corporates
coming
in.
Was
there
any
consideration
to
imposing
a
not-for-profit
rule
on
the
operation
of
heat
networks.
K
I
I
would
maybe
ask
james
to
comment
on
that
in
terms
of
the
work
of
the
working
group
as
to
whether
that
was
looked
at.
I
would
want
to
stress
so
in
terms
of
I
wouldn't
necessarily
agree
with
mr
whiteman's
characterization
of
the
potential
investors.
Yes,
there
may
well
be
larger
investors,
and
I
would
be
surprised
if
there
isn't
interest
with
the
environment
we're
creating
from
from
even
outside
scotland,
in
terms
of
larger
corporates
wanting
to
come
in.
K
We've
also
created
the
space
for
potentially
community-led
projects
to
be
taken
forward,
and
indeed,
we've
considered
potentially
some
ways
in
which
we
could
support
community
projects
in
terms
of
either
the
there's
just
potential
administers
discretion
to
not
require
cost
certain
costs
in
terms
of
the
licensing
costs
and
the
application
costs
to
be
offset
for
for
community-owned
projects.
And
so
we
are
looking
at
how
we
can
encourage
a
diversity
of
ownership
and
we're
where,
in
scotland,
there
will
be
tentatively
larger
number
of
small
networks
that
we
clearly
want
to
see
properly
regulated.
K
But
indeed,
in
our
engagement
with
uk
ministers,
we're
very
keen
to
ensure
that
any
consumer
protection
framework
is
reflective
of
the
nature
of
the
smaller,
potentially
even
ireland
projects
and
that
might
have
to
be
delivered
in
scotland.
Make
sure
that
the
regulations
and
the
frameworks
are
proportionate,
so
they're
not
applying
the
same
rules
to
potentially
those
circumstances
to
a
large
corporate
that
we
would
to
a
smaller
locally
led
project.
K
Yeah,
I
mean
it's
obviously
potential.
I
would
hope
that
there
may
be
some
local
authorities
be
interested
in
running
their
own
heat
networks
and
that's
indeed,
in
those
circumstances,
the
powers
for
scottish
ministers
to
be
the
consenting
authority
could
be
helpful
because
it
creates
a
obviously
ability
for
the
project
to
be
brought
forward
and
objective
basis
about
any
conflicts
of
interest.
So,
but
you
know
trying
to
be
enthusiastic
about
local
authorities
that
want
to
take
bring
forward
projects
to
agree
with
mr
whiteman.
J
I
have
had
evidence
from
professor
presley,
which
no
doubt
the
minister
has
has
seen
in
which
he
criticizes,
for
example,
section
58
as
being
oddly
drafted
and
that
it
doesn't
confer
the
primary
right
to
transfer
thermal
energy
he's
critical.
The
fact
that
there's
no
positive
prescription
powers
there
in
the
bill
he's
critical
that
the
way
leaves
are
not
being
created
as
real
rights
in
law.
Bringing
everything
that
a
real
right
does.
He
considers
that
section
60
particularly,
is
poorly
drafted.
J
K
Certainly,
I'm
very
aware
of
the
the
the
value
of
professor
paisley's
evidence
to
committee,
and
I
know
he
has,
as
mr
whiteman's
outlined
a
number
of
areas,
around
creation
of
real
rights,
as
he
put
it
so
that
they
run
with
the
land.
I
think
is
the
term
he
used
and
buying
success
of
landowners.
Given
the
long-term
nature
of
these
heat
networks,
which
may
take
anything
between
15
and
40
years
to
recover
the
investment
costs
for
networks.
K
So
they
are,
you
know,
unusually
long-term
investments
in
that
respect,
not,
unlike
you
know,
large
scales
or
win
sites
or
other
major
energy
investments.
The
provisions
in
part
six
and
largely
follow
those
contained
in
electricity
legislation
and
provide
equivalent
rights
to
those
available
to
other
utilities,
and
one
difference
is
that
a
network
leave
rights
would
bound
would
bind
any
subsequent
owners
and
tenants
on
the
land.
I
am
aware,
as
I
say,
the
evidence
that
professor
paisley
has
provided
and
we're
open
to
discussions
on
on
this
matter.
K
So
following
introduction,
we
have
also
been
aware
of
the
potential
to
augment
this
part
of
the
bill
to
ensure
the
rights
are
recorded
transparently
and
are
accessible,
which
is
something
that
professor
paisley
obviously
has
a
has
alluded
to
in
his
own
evidence
and
we'd
be
happy
to
consider
how
this
is
best
done
alongside
the
committee.
So
we're
open
to
to
suggestions
from
the
committee
on
this
point.
J
Okay,
thanks.
That
is
helpful.
I
just
want
to
follow
up
just
with
a
few
sort
of
detailed
questions
that
have
arisen
from
comments
that
have
been
made
and,
first
of
all,
a
question
arose
from
a
response
that
ms
kasparek
gave
a
minute
ago
in
relationship
to
the
sterling
horizons
project
section
two
one
of
the
bill
says
that
a
person
must
not
supply
thermal
energy
by
means
of
a
heat
network
unless
the
person
holds
a
heat
network's
license
and
it's
an
offense
to
do
otherwise.
J
N
J
J
M
Well,
only
to
observe
that
each
individual
particular
setup
will
have
its
own
managerial
or
company
structure,
and
I'm
not
sure
it's
possible
to
delve
into
these
in
this
level
of
detail.
Here
I
think
the
general
proposition
mr
weinman's
making
is
correct
that
it's
the
legal
entity,
that's
responsible
for
supply
that
has
to
be
licensed
and
that
the
person
operating
the
network
has
to
have
consent.
J
Yes,
no,
I
understand
that
I'm
just
I'm
just
concerned
that
we
we're
clear
about
what
section
two
one
actually
means
that
I,
as
a
householder,
I'm
in
receipt
of
heat
from
a
heat
network.
I
pay
someone
for
it.
They
are
the
supplier
who
requires
the
license
and
if
that's,
if
that's
clear
in
the
minds
of
of
government,
there's
no
ambiguity
in
that.
J
K
I
think
I
may
have
been
referencing
actually,
the
revocation
of
the
appeals
around
revocation
of
licenses
earlier
on
and
in
passing.
I've
obviously
come
back
on
detail
that
to
mr
whiteman,
if
it
wasn't
clear
at
the
time
the
complexity
as
such
I
was
presenting,
which
may
have
been
the
source
of
confusion,
was
around
the
position
where,
under
current
drafting
and
in
advance
of
knowing
exactly
what
you
know
was
in
uk
legislation
and
consumer
protection.
K
We
have
created
space
for
scottish
ministers,
potentially
the
enforcement
authority
or
or
alternatively,
to
appoint
some
other
body
to
be
the
enforcement
authority.
And
so,
if
there's
a
little,
I
could
appreciate
there's
a
little
bit
of
confusion
about
the
appeals
mechanism.
So
we
go
into
the
discussion
around
the
role
of
the
courts,
the
court
session
sheriff
courts
in
that
context
and
the
the
instance
that
there
was
a
revocation
license
and
then
there
was
a
subsequent
appeal.
Who
would
that
go
to?
K
And
we
can
obviously
come
back
to
committee
if
it's
helpful,
just
to
try
and
make
clear
exactly
what
our
our
our
expectations
are
around
revocation
of
the
license
and
the
appeal
mechanism
and
how
that
might
be
different.
If
we
get
the
clarity
that
we're
seeking
from
uk
ministers
around
the
appointment
of
licensing
authority
and
and
other
applications.
J
Thanks,
yes,
I
was
just
a
bit
confused
and-
and
finally,
if
I
may,
this
convener
the
question
of
transfers
of
transfer
schemes
under
section
74,
what
transfer
assets,
what,
if
no
one's
willing
to
take
on
an
asset,
what
happens
to
them
and
the
sort
of
sub
question
of
that
would
be
what
about
decommissioning
of
schemes.
But
if
you
could
address
the
question
first
of
all,
if
no
one's
willing
to
take
on
an
asset
owned
by
an
entity
that
has
gone
bust
or,
for
other
reasons,
can't
operate.
K
Well,
ultimately,
just
I'll
check
with
james
ii.
If
I've
got
this
correct
in
terms
of
my
interpretation,
there's
obviously
powers
from
ministers
to
step
in
and
to
take
on
responsibility
for
that
heat
network
and
that
such
situation
clearly,
we
would
hope
if
we've
gone
through
the
process
properly.
These
are
new
networks
that
have
been
established
under
the
lds.
The
zoning
for
heat
networks
that
we've
identified
that
this
is
a
a
competitive
technology
in
that
locality.
K
That's
providing
you
know
a
good,
a
good
outcome,
so
it's
appropriate
use
of
technology
in
the
area
and
that
in
a
well-designed
scheme,
then
there
should
be
clearly
a
strong
market
underpinning
for
that
particular
network
and
to
allow
someone
else
to
take
on
responsibility
for
that
network.
But
to
answer
mr
whiteman
I'll
just
double
check
with
james
I've
got
respect
scottish
ministers.
Ultimately,
if
there's
no
commercial
interest
in
that
site
could
step
in
take
on
responsibility
for
it
until
such
time
as
as
an
alternative
provider
can
can
take
on
responsibility,
but
just
pretty
far.
J
K
Interaction
between
the
two
pieces
of
legislation
misled
mr
white
men.
In
that
respect,
we
obviously
have
set
out
our
own
transfer
schemes
under
part
seven
of
the
bill,
which
potentially
could
have
scottish
ministers,
obviously
stepping
in
to
take
over
the
responsibility
of
the
network.
Should
there
be
no
commercial
interest
in
it.
J
J
It
was
about
it
was
it
was
about.
I
asked
the
question
as
to
because
the
minister
earlier
had
said
that
the
uk
were
taking
approach
about
step
in
powers
whereby
ministers
government
would
be
would
step
in
as
last
resort,
whereas
the
scottish
government
were
not
taking
that
approach,
and
I
was
just
querying
the
fact
that
in
in
answering
my
question
about
who
would
be,
who
would
ultimately
own
these
assets.
If
there
wasn't
anyone
willing
to
take
on
the
minister
had
said
we
weren't.
K
Going
to
take
a
step
in
yeah,
I
mean
just
to
repeat
the
point.
I
hope
I
haven't
caused
any
confusion
I
may
have
done,
and
so
apologies
to
mr
whiteman.
If
I
have
we
we're
aware.
Obviously,
uk
government's
taking
are
proposing
to
take
forward
this
legislation
early
part
of
next
year,
which
would
set
out
its
step
in
powers
which
would
certainly
have
in
response
to
mr
golden's
point
earlier
on
and
have
the
ability
to
provide
for
a
situation
where
existing
network
field.
K
We
just
need
to
understand
how
that
interacts
with
part,
seven
of
our
bill,
where
we've
set
out
transfer
schemes
which
could
include
scottish
ministers
taking
over
responsibility
for
a
heat
network
in
a
similar
situation
for
a
new
network,
for
example,
and
so
it's
just
to
understand
the
interaction
between
the
two
pieces
of
legislation.
So
it's
not
a
fundamentally
different
approach.
That
communist
is
taking
it's
different
legislation
and
therefore
we
just
need
to
understand
that
they
interact
the
interaction
between
the
two
and
given
this.
J
K
Checking
that
point
with
with
james,
if
I
may
convener,
but
certainly
in
terms
of
the
timing
of
the
bill.
Hopefully
we
will
have
sufficient
foresight
of
with
collaboration
with
with
the
bay's
ministers
and
their
officials
about
what
they
are
proposing,
putting
a
bill.
It
could,
of
course,
be
amended
as
it
passes
through
the
house
of
commons.
L
That's
correct
and
the
I
guess
the
powers
there
have
been
left
relatively
abroad
to
enable
us
to
to
get
something
else
to
say
and
understand
how
how
this
interacts
with
and
what
the
uk
government
intends
to
do
in
future.
Can
I
just
clarify
that
the
earlier
point,
in
terms
of
the
step
and
the
the
obligation
on
the
scottish
ministers
to
step
in
I'll
clarify
where
that
is
set
out?
But,
as
I
said,
I
apologize,
I
just
don't.
Have
the
the
section
number
two.