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A
Well
good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
fifth
meeting
of
the
economy,
energy
and
Fair
Work
committee
for
2019
I
would
ask
everyone
in
the
public
a
way
to
turn
any
devices
they
have
to
silent.
Please
we
have
apologies
from
committee
members,
Dean,
Lockhart
and
Gordon
McDonald.
The
first
item
on
the
agenda
is
a
decision
by
the
committee
to
take
items.
3
4,
&
5
in
private.
Are
we
all
agreed?
Yes,
thank
you.
A
I
turned
that
into
item
two
on
our
agenda,
which
is
our
inquiry
into
construction
and
Scotland's
economy,
and
we
have
today
our
four
witnesses
here.
You
are
all
welcome.
First
of
all,
Hugh
ed
ger
who's,
the
interim
head
of
UK
policy
for
our
ICS
and
Scotland
Ian
Rogers
chief
executive
Scottish,
decorator's,
federer
Federation.
Then
we
have
Stephen
Dillon,
who
is
the
regional
coordinating
officer
of
unite
construction?
Allied
trades
and
technicians
unite
the
Union
and
Simon
Rawlinson
who's
a
partner
in
our
caddis,
representing
the
construction
Leadership
Council
today.
A
So
welcome
to
all
four
of
you
and
before
we
move
to
other
questions
from
members
of
the
committee
I'd
like
to
just
open
by
perhaps
asking
what
each
of
you
view
as
the
the
key
strengths
of
Scotland's
construction
sector
and
indeed
the
perhaps
some
of
the
the
key
weaknesses
in
light
of
certainly
recent
events,
and
if
you
just
indicate
by
raising
your
hand,
if
you
wish
to
speak,
the
sound
desk
will
operate
the
the
mic,
so
no
need
to
press
any
buttons.
Okay,
don't
know
who
would
like
to
start
yeah?
B
And
I
think
the
key
strength
of
these
God's
construction
sector
is
its
resilience.
The
last
10
to
15
years
have
been
particularly
turbulent
from
an
economic
point
of
view,
and
the
construction
industry
still
manages
to
to
struggle
on
in
there
a
vibrant
and
healthy
construction
sector.
It
needs
confidence
and
confidence
itself.
It's
a
product
of
a
consistency
of
certainty
and
stability.
B
Now,
in
the
last
10
to
15
years,
have
had
the
recession
we've
had
numerous
national
elections
and
referendums,
all
of
which
contribute
to
a
slowing
effect
on
investment
decisions
from
foreign
directors,
so
investors
or
internal
companies
and
I
think
we've
had
an
election
every
year
since
2012.
So
again,
this
has
a
slow
in
effect
on
those
decisions.
However,
the
Scottish
Commons
track
read
the
record
on
infrastructure.
B
Investment
and
construction
is
commendable
and
they're
going
recognises
the
benefits
of
the
healthy
construction
sector
to
the
economy
and
I
think
this
is
best
illustrated
when
a
corn
first
minister
and
a
previous
tool
is
Deputy.
First
Minister
stated
that
we
need
to
build
our
way
through
the
recession,
as
she
said
that
in
2012.
So
this
is
probably
why
the
Scottish
construction
sector
continues
to
be
an
attractive
arena
for
investment
on
a
regular
basis.
The
Scottish
government
announces
a
package
of
measures
to
increase
capital
investment
and
which
will
create
a
more
importantly,
maintain
jobs.
B
I
know
a
lot
of
construction
sector
activity
and
measures
are
based
around
creating
new
jobs,
but
it's
also
maintaining
jobs.
That
is
equally
as
important
and
I'm
sure.
My
colleagues
on
the
panel
will
share
that
view.
I
think
one
of
the
weaknesses
is
the
lack
of
talent
coming
through
the
pipeline.
I
think
there's
been
a
kind
of
a
standoff
when
it
comes
to
education.
B
C
Of
course,
it
certain
locations
in
which
the
industry
operates
a
very
remote
and
that,
of
course,
then
results
in
inconsiderable
premium
costs
and
that
was
brought
to
life
by
a
very
fine
construction
news
awards,
submission
by
I
think
it's
Robertson's,
the
contractor
building
a
primary
school
in
I
think
it
was
south
used
and
and
just
the
challenges
that
that
submission
brought
to
light
I
think
was
firstly,
accredit
to
the
industry
and
second,
recognising
how
difficult
some
locations
are
delivered
here.
The
second
one
is
probably
more
general,
which
is
the
rate
of
growth.
D
D
D
Qualifications
are
after
qualifications,
linked
to
wages
and
I.
Do
that
with
stevia?
We
need
to
make
a
clear
choice.
How
do
we
do
that?
We
could
use?
Teachers
are
not
that
he
can
just
have
to
coming
into
construction.
It's
not
something
they
would
point.
There
are
young
people
to
go
into
destruction
as
exactly
yeah.
I
can
be
very
very
what
reported
I
mean
fifty
thousand
pounds
per
annum.
It's
not
uncommon.
A
F
F
Recently,
it's
been
tried
to
be
wore
down
from
some
sectors
and
beneath
it
protect
our
all
course,
because
the
last
few
actually,
the
industry,
that's
where
we
are
today,
one
of
the
weaknesses
in
a
witness
and
then
they
see
three
years
is
the
Employment
Practice,
and
you
know
when
people
are
further
apprenticeship,
you
know
what
happens
to
them.
Then
you
know
that's
the
bigness
of
the
understates
about
who
will
look
after
the
people
in
the
industry.
We
keep
talking
about
the
bold
in
the
materials,
the
design.
F
G
Very
much
convener
just
stay
picking
up
on
some
of
the
the
contributions
the
earth
and
took
them
in
terms
of
apprenticeships
and
skills
in
terms
of
the
apprenticeship
levy,
there
was
some
research
done
that
said,
33
percent
of
employers
and
forty
percent
of
employees
knew
nothing
about
that
leadership.
Wavy
and
and
more
than
a
third
of
Blades
construction.
Businesses
admitted
too
often
new
formal
professional
development
for
employees,
despite
73
percent
of
employees
in
the
sector.
E
G
D
Its
own
employers
don't
like
that
at
all
who'd
want
to
composite
because
it
kinda
can't
get
funding
from
it.
You
can
only
get
funding
by
doing
certain
specific
training.
So
that's
been
a
the
screening
industry
files.
The
whole
thing
is
it
seen
as
a
tax
as
a
seasonal
government
tax.
You
know
you
don't
change,
you
do
get
the
money
back
and
there's
only
specific
training.
You
can
do
to
get
him.
Anybody
there's
been
no
more
money
given
to
a
squatting
government
to
find
that
feeling.
C
So
I
think
it's
absolutely
correct
that
there's
a
hiatus
in
skills
coming
through,
because
the
opportunities
weren't
there
now
the
construction,
Leadership
Council,
has
worked
very
hard
with
the
CIT
B
and
with
the
I
think
it's
the
the
apprenticeship,
the
board
that
approves
apprenticeships,
to
get
60
approved
courses
through
during
2018.
And
furthermore,
there
was
an
announcement
in
the
budget
in
2000
of
ember
2018
that
large
employers
ones
described
by
ian
would
be
able
to
cascade
I
believe
it's
25
percent
of
their
funding
to
their
subcontractors.
C
G
Thank
you
for
that,
and
also
picking
up
some
of
the
contributions
from
from
panel
members,
a
speaking
about
apprenticeships
and
being
gold-plated,
and
you
know,
I,
think
the
strength
of
apprenticeships
and
Scotland
as
unemployed
status
and,
and
you
spoke
about
how
we
need
to
do
more-
to
meet
construction
and
a
clear
of
choice.
So
therefore,
packing
up
on
some
diversity
issues.
D
Pretty
good
acting
is
probably
the
most
successful
attracting
women,
but
it's
still
only
two
or
three
percent
that
it's
very
low
and
what
actually
our
anecdotally,
from
my
conversations
with
the
parentheses,
females
and
males,
have
a
different
mindset.
Females
use
the
qualification
to
good
further
their
careers.
D
They
have
a
longer
term
view
of
the
life
standing
young
men
coming
into
industry,
young
men,
think
of
a
fraidy
and
getting
out
with
a
Proust
they'll
all
seem
to
think
about
where
the
qualifications
can
take
them
and
many
of
the
girls
who
come
into
our
sector
end
up
in
interior
design.
So
you
have
a
qualification
in
painting
a
decorative
thing.
They
can
use
the
interior
design
that
qualification
to
go
to
Korea,
University
and
dual
interior
design
course.
G
But
never
sweet
goodness
as
mr.
Rogers
and
I
am
conscious,
even
I'm,
conscious
that
there
is
a
range
of
careers
available
in
the
construction
industry
and
yes,
some
of
them
are
in
interior
design.
Some
of
them
are,
you
know
a
bit
more
on
the
front
line
and
hands-on
and
you
know
require
you
know
the
crafts
and
in
traditional
treats
know
there
are
severe,
but
as
well
so
you
know
may
be.
D
For
a
young
lady
come
into
the
industry,
I
know
a
nice,
that's
that's
a
bit
of
research
and
he's
done.
What
is
that
more?
Are
the
body?
I
was
say:
I'm
coming
it
from
their
perspective,
not
just
an
employer's
perspective.
It's
historically
been
a
male
environment
and
I'm
not
sure
that
working
in
a
building
say,
there's
an
attractive
trust
position
for
young
girls
coming
into
the
industry.
G
F
F
For
I
am
the
end
astrea's,
who
a
place
for
women
to
what
there's
no
deer,
boot
I
mean
obvious
success.
Does
myself
and
I
wouldn't
want?
Somebody
worked
in
industry,
so
many
reasons
for
our
is
like
toilet
conditions,
for
example
sanitary
products,
the
new
society
for
our
dogs.
We
a
you,
need
the
Union
running
a
campaign,
a
big
period,
dignity
and
construction
seats.
No,
so
that
female
construction
workers
have
bought
somewhere
ago.
F
You
know
instead
of
getting
ambien
and
I'm
your
construction,
see
toilet,
but
all
the
nannies-
and
here
is
last
about
mañana
yeah
and
not
so
many
things
that
need
to
change
in
industry,
so
that
I
mean
that
would
fear
of
imminent.
Now
it's
we're
running
a
big
big
massive
campaign
across
ClearBlack
Naboo,
trying
to
make
sure
construction
companies,
clients
in
the
lakes,
look
at
the
toilet
conditions
that
you
know
for
both
men
and
particularly
women,
including
that's
period
dignity
as
she
we've
got
a
melon
orbital
period
issues
about
released
across
the
country.
F
We
actually,
we
actually
put
enough
paid
claim
for
cause.
Last
year,
the
and
as
a
male-dominated
industry
we
unfpa
claim
that's
free
sanitary
products
should
be
provided
and
all
local
authority
Boden's.
So
that's
the
key.
Nothing
prevents
woman
coming
in
industry.
You
know
I
think
there
should
be
a
lot
more
women
than
to
say
you
know
it's
not.
You
know
if
we
could
get
the
man,
you
know
it'd
be
great,
but
we
need
to
make
sure
the
conditions
are
rate,
because
these
construction
workers
I've
lived
in
these
pure
conditions
for
years.
A
C
I
totally
agree
with
what
Ian
and
Steven
have
described
there,
but
I
would
like
to
just
suggest
that
the
prospectus
might
be
a
little
bit
brighter
than
that,
so
the
CIT
B
has
been
doing
quite
a
lot
of
research
about
future
skills
requirements.
So
this
is
the
industry
transforming
itself,
and
one
of
the
areas
where
most
development
is
expected
is
is
in
off-site
construction.
C
So
this
is
construction
in
factory
conditions
and
and
I
think
it
is
emphasizing
its
groups
like
this,
which
is
emphasizing
in
getting
that
message
that
the
future
of
construction
is
not
necessarily
on
a
site.
It
might
be
in
a
factory.
It
might
be
using
digital
tools,
which
again
is
construction.
That's
the
future
for
everybody,
not
just
women
or
men
and
I.
Think
some
more
than
that
message
is
communicated
externally
is
the
way
that
we
change
the
brand
of
the
industry
and
the
way
that
we
attract
everybody.
Okay,.
D
For
loss
and
destruction,
the
demographics
are
changing
and
there's
more
single
families,
no
do
single
families.
So
the
great
wide
world
out
there
and
lots
of
ladies
who
live
in
the
ruin
would
prefer
a
female
coming
in
to
do
work
that
a
man
coming
in
to
do
work,
noise,
I
know
it's
been
a
couple
of
our
members,
female
members,
you
know,
and
they
get
quite
a
lot
of
work
that
way,
rather
than
trying
to
compete
in
the
big
environment.
Bettina
a
specialist
market
for
the
for
the
female
market,
q.
B
E
B
Think
you
just
very
quickly
and
agree
with
what
my
the
panelists
have
said
on
this
issue
so
far
and
we've
been
canvassing
our
members
on
diversification
of
the
Trotters
vein,
profession
and
Arceus
member
employees
are
very
keen
to
diversify
and
the
workforce
and
apprenticeships
come
back
to
the
earlier
point,
or
just
one
way
of
doing
that
and
coupled
with
the
innovative
recruiting
process
that
they
undertake.
Many
of
our
member
firms
are
increasing
the
diversity.
B
G
Just
give
you
know
that
there's
other
areas
to
move
on
to,
but
I
wondered
if
it'd
be
useful
if
members
of
the
pad
on
behalf
of
the
respective
organisations,
but
they
did
committee
with
some
information
specifically
on
the
points
to
do
both
diversity
and
improving
the
gender
balance.
That's
in
the
industry,
the.
A
D
There's
a
short
CIT
be
a
time
when
Scotland
is
becoming
more
evolved
from
from
Westminster
CIT
B
is
becoming
more
centralized.
In
fact,
there's
been
a
number
Adonis's
most
up
to
date
and
be
more
coming
so
well.
Much
of
the
work
is
going
to
be
done
by
CIT.
B
is
going
to
be
done
service
to
the
border
that
needs
to
change.
We
need
to
have
a
Scottish
run,
CIT
be
looking
particularly
at
the
profit
of
the
Scotland
CIT.
We
have
retreated
from
doing
work
to
schools
and
it's
now
being
left
to
others.
D
We
are
looking
at
as
a
federation.
We
are
looking
at
getting
funding
to
do
some
school
work
and
some
get
some
guys
on
some
children,
schools
on
to
hunters
into
work
experience
and
give
them
some
qualification,
so
we're
working
with
Scotia,
Velma,
Scotland
and
CIT
beard
on
hunting
package
to
do
that.
It
should
that
be
starting.
D
D
C
Just
out
a
clarification,
the
CIT
B
reforms
are
evolving,
the
delivery
of
training
locally.
So
it's
the
it's
effectively.
It's
the
identification
of
need
which
is
being
brought
into
the
center,
but
the
reformed
program,
which
is
fully
supported
by
the
construction
Leadership
Council,
is
a
three-year
program,
backed
by
the
industry,
to
devolve
training
to
where
it
is
delivered.
One
thing
I,
just
like
to
mention
from
an
Arkady's
perspective,
is
that
we
support
a
program
called
class
of
their
own,
which
runs
a
design
and
constructed
GCSE.
C
C
The
final
thing
around
at
CIT
B
is
that
we
are
trying
very
hard
to
create
a
single
entry
portal
into
the
industry.
This
is
one
of
the
problems
that
industry
has
is
no
clarity
about
who
you
go
to
so,
as
Steven
and
Ian
have
very
clearly
indicated,
it's
not
clear
who
the
employers
are,
for
example,
so,
by
having
a
single
entry
go
construct,
then
it
makes
it
much
easier
for
people
to
decide
how
they
want
to
enter
into
the
industry,
whether
they're,
a
decorator,
a
ground
worker
or
an
engineer.
B
E
B
Does
its
fair
bit
of
an
engagement,
you
know
we
go
into
schools
via
credit
university
courses
to
help
people
on
their
career
to
become
a
chartered
surveyor
and
again.
This
goes
back
to
one
of
the
points
in
mentioned
earlier
by
the
attractiveness
of
the
construction
sector.
When
you
look
at
the
recession
and
the
number
of
layoffs
of
the
world,
you
know
people
you
know
losing
their
jobs
and
lo
coming
back
into
this
sector,
that's
happened,
not
exactly
a
good
pool.
B
You
know
to
to
people,
we
don't
you
know
you
are
beginning
to
make
life
choices
in
terms
of
what
the
career
path
will
be.
So
again,
it's
you
know
we
have
to
find
a
way
to
end
the
cyclical
nature
of
the
construction
sector.
You
know
trying
to
level
out
the
the
peaks
and
troughs
of
the
construction
sector
performance.
D
B
D
Probably
a
raft
of
qualifications
as
we
progress
into
Euclidean
linked
to
reaches
that
would
be
a
helpful
tool
for
recruitment.
If
people
knew
there
was
a
ladder
or
a
career
ladder,
just
weren't
going
to
be
a
journeyman,
you
could
progress
through
that
and
you
can
progress
for
actually
through
that.
Then
that
might
be
more
appealing
for
the
preparedness
you
know
making
what
attracts
or
funds
go
into
the
industry.
F
Just
quickly
German,
you
mentioned
about
the
MSP
korneev
as
a
construction
C
we
all
ice
about
like
the
Queen.
Given
she
smelt
pain
everywhere
she
went
everywhere.
She
goes
you
and
also
you
know,
and
that's
the
standard
we
should
be
having
in
every
state
with
a
name
is
peace
visit
and
not
really
JC's
visit
in
the
job.
That's
that's.
What's
corny
attract
people
industry?
What
are
the
things?
F
It's
not
excited
females
to
dentistry,
the
pension
schemes
garbage
it's
what
the
snotty
you
should
be,
then
I,
don't
you
know,
I
mean
it's
neat
good
for
the
was
needed
for
the
work
of
the
new.
They
make
the
mill
workers.
It's
got
to
be
new,
no
good
for
the
female
workers
and
families,
so
the
pension
schemes
garbage
there's
not
a
bit
shaky
on
the
construction
industry.
Her
young
mothers,
for
example,
gonna,
be
an
industry
nobody's
ever
looked
at
a
lot
and
therefore
construction
and
he's
looked
at
yeah
on
its
own.
That
females
also.
D
D
I
Turn
to
mummy
I
mean
I've
argued
for
a
while
that
there
should
be
project
bank
accounts
and
up
until
I
think
last
year
none
were
ever
used
in
Scotland
I'm
delighted.
The
Scottish
Government
are
confirming
they're
going
to
consult
on
cash
retentions
for
construction
projects,
I
think
in
the
spring
I
wonder
whether
you
could
unpack
for
the
committee.
How
prevalent
issues
are
with
payment
terms
and
payment?
Behavior
start
with
Simon
boys.
C
So,
just
before
I
stop.
Currently
there
is
an
inquiry
into
payment
and
retention,
the
this
of
the
UK
Parliament
so
that
that
has
been
running
for
the
past
year.
It's
an
extremely
complicated
situation,
so
I
think
it
was
become
very
clear
from
that
consultation.
Is
that
as
many
people
who
are
safe,
for
example,
against
the
holding
of
retentions,
there
will
be
exactly
the
same
number.
Who
will
want
to
hold
it
for
different
reasons?
So,
typically,
the
reason
for
not
holding
it
is
cashflow.
C
The
reason
for
wanting
to
hold
it
is
to
have
some
assurance
around
the
maintenance
of
quality
of
work.
I
think
there's
a
bigger
question,
which
is
actually
is
around
the
transparency
at
the
industry
and
therefore,
whether
employers,
whether
they
are
in
the
public
sector
order,
the
private
sector
actually
know
what's
going
on
in
that
supply
chain.
So
if
we
would
take
the
example
of
a
project
bank
account
that
might
solve
the
problem
for
the
immediate
subcontractors
who
sit
under
the
main
contractor,
but
is
no
solution
for
the
many
sub
dozens.
C
Potentially,
hundreds
of
suppliers
who
sit
in
the
third
and
fourth
tip
so
I
think
the
solution
which
is
actually
in
terms
of
we'll
be
able
to
demonstrate
whether
they've
been
paid
and
if
they
haven't
been
paid.
Whether
there's
a
good
reason
for
that
money,
being
retained
may
well
be
a
solution.
Just
toning
very
quickly.
C
On
project
bank
accounts
you,
the
committee
is
probably
aware
of
the
very
low
levels
of
profitability,
particularly
amongst
tier
one
main
contractors
in
the
industry,
so
the
top
10
contractors
in
the
UK
made
an
average
profit
I
believe
of
not
0.5%
in
2017
18,
depending
on
the
latest
audited
figures,
the
costs
of
a
project
bank
account
in
in
cashflow
terms,
will
more
than
exceed
that
profit
level.
So
what
will
effectively
happen
is
that
the
costs
of
projects
will
need
to
rise
to
finance
that
cash
flows.
I
C
Out
where,
of
course
were
not
delivering
projects,
they
were
delivering
what
you
might
describe
the
services
so
that
wouldn't
be
covered
by
a
project
bank
account,
but
yes,
you're
right.
It
would
provide
some
protection
for
those
organizations,
but
I'd
emphasize
it
would
protect
the
second
tier,
not
necessarily
the
third
or
fourth
okay,.
F
And
you
mentioned
you
mentioned
the
tier
1
kin
sites
or
something
you
know
doesn't
mater
fee
I
prefer
not
because
it's
basically
all
there
in
stocks
and
shares
and
how
much
stuff.
But
this
is
looking
on
the
stock
market
and
now
really
I
should
project
itself.
So
there's
some.
These
companies
buy
contracts
even
a
run
at
a
loss,
so
I'm
not
really
bothered
with
the
big
major
players
with
at
that
stage.
It's
a
smaller
believe,
medium
to
small
size,
companies
and
I
as
a
great
thing
for
them.
F
F
If
people
are
supplying
a
service,
they
should
be
paid
for
that
and
there
should
be
a
timescale
on
it,
which
is
and
the
details
so
that
the
workers
know
the
companies,
the
workers
and
the
subcontractors
that
they
are
probably
working
for
them
as
well
all
get
paid,
and
it
really
needs
to
happen
because
really
the
Tier
one
companies,
you
know
I,
don't
know
I
tell
you
say
they
operate,
that's
the
sometimes
as
I
say
you
know,
they're
not
really
bothered
about
companies.
The
companies
Eisley
mean
profit,
it's
all
about
a
stock
market.
In
my
view,.
D
D
D
You
may
commit
when
you
make
a
valuation.
Our
colleagues
in
the
ICS
will
have
a
look
at
that
and
then
amid
dispute,
the
valuation
from
the
contractor
and
therefore
he'll
get
a
much
less
valuation
than
he
will
shoot
through
the
project,
leaving
the
bulk
of
the
money
to
the
last
argument.
When
you
feel,
then
you
can
get
your
attention
back,
because
many
many
dear
ones
use
the
use,
detention
as
another
main
contractors
disclaim,
because
soft
contractors
don't
know
when
the
practical
completion
of
a
project
takes
place.
So
you
know
when
to
actually
apply
felicitations.
D
B
Does
the
valuation
near
we
we
report
the
market,
we
don't
steer
it.
You
know
so
you're
a
nuisance
just
taking
out
the
time.
If
I
could
just
pick
up
on
project
bank
accounts,
you
know
they
basically
provide
a
vital
cash
flow
for
SMEs.
You
know
very
cash
flow,
you
know,
there's
some.
He
would
go
under
it's
as
simple
as
that
they
can
make
profit,
but
it's
all
about
having
that
money
coming
in
you
know
and
going
out
to
pay
stuff
on
a
quarterly
basis.
B
We
canvassed
our
members
who
operate
in
the
construction
infrastructure
sectors
and
our
most
recent
iteration
came
out.
January
across
the
UK
financial
constraints
were
reported
by
78%
of
our
members,
it'd
be
the
most
significant
impediment
to
building
activity
and,
and
this
financial
constraints
includes
our
access
to
bank
finance
and
credit,
but
along
with
cash
flow
and
liquidity
challenges.
So
this
is
something
that's
certainly
on
our
radio
and
very
much
of
concern.
It's.
I
I
I
do
now
want
to
turn
to
procurement
and
specifically,
look
at
Karelian
and
lessons
learned,
because
I
think
it
was
a
shock
to
everybody
that
Karelian
went
under
certainly
to
us
responsible
for
delivering
on
sizable
government
contracts.
A
huge
network
of
subcontractors
all
adversely
affected,
and
the
context
in
which
we
meet
today
strikes
me
as
as
pertinent,
so
we've
got
McGill's
and
company
devastating
blow
for
dundee,
announcing
374
job
losses
going
into
administration
and
yet
to
the
outside
world.
I
D
Has
the
construction
industry
learn
anything
from
any
of
the
people
going
into
administration?
The
answer
to
that
is
no,
absolutely.
No.
We
still
tender
under
the
same
principles.
We
still
have
a
hugely
more
profit
margin.
Some
company
is
working
on
one
or
two
percent.
That's
all
not
sustainable.
As
we
go
forward.
You
don't
need
to
have
a
very
long
pause
and
your
next
contract
before
you're.
Not
you
having
any
money.
Are
you
laying
people
off
or
going
bust,
so
the
construction
industry?
D
No,
as
an
answer,
my
question
is:
has
the
government
in
their
procurement
are
too
many
projects
going
to
one
contract
and
one
main
container
rather
spray
them
through
several
men?
Consensus
is
the
way
the
government
looking
at
the
lowest
end
or
the
right
thing
to
do
as
another
Avenue
directly
could
be
divest
ourselves
of
the
highest
end
of
it
and
the
lowest
end
of
it,
and
something
individual
is
probably
correct.
So.
I
F
So
it's
it's
really
sad
that
it's
happened
and
the
girls
I
mean
I've,
been
in
the
Sun
decisions,
a
lot
than
as
an
officer
to
the
Union.
The
men
are
companies
in
any
administration
in
Scotland
shockin,
the
sidebar
baby,
that
as
a
disc
or
East
I,
expects
up
the
Beaufort
for
those
administration's
to
pick
up
the
ball.
So
the
redundancy
pick
up
the
bowl
for
the
notice
period
back
up
the
bowl
for
any
potato
award
that
end
it
covers
it
all:
the
updated,
an
employment
tribunal.
F
Some
of
these
fellows
autumn
operas
I
Phoenix,
found
my
collar
weeks
later.
You
know,
I
saw
this
about
directors
accompanies
an
Eden
looked
at
and
how
you've
been
I
can't
lose
an
administration,
for
example,
who
you
know
those
people
operate
after
the
administration.
It
should
be
bad
cleaning
sample
diamond
that
the
family
should
be
about
to
open
up
an
art,
business
and
devastate
miss
happened,
and
indeed
we're
meeting
the
families
in
indeed
Thursday,
even
along
with
peace
through
the
Scottish
Parliament.
F
But
as
far
as
procurements
concern,
Jenny
calls
the
use
of
public
procurement
to
be
bedded
and
direct
employment
and
national
collective
agreements
any
been
subject
to
significant
role,
supervision
of
direction.
In
relation
to
that,
what
should
be
deemed
to
be
employed
for
tax
and
employment
rate
purposes?
There
needs
to
be
swift
action
by
the
government
to
prevent
employment
and
permitted
the
intermediate
risk.
I,
you
see
that
being
used
at
the
sky
is
folks,
self-employment
and
exploited
of
labor
practices
covering
payroll
companies.
F
The
conclusion
of
the
code
report
and
two
dashes
around
force
closure
of
edinburgh
skills
due
to
the
defective
construction
process,
led
to
unique
calling
for
a
national
inquiry
to
occur
every
building.
I
was
constructed
under
a
private
finance
model
so
that
the
public
can
be
assured
they
are
safe
and
fit
for
purpose.
F
Our
view
was
that
the
inquiry
should
have
looked
at
not
only
the
safety,
but
also
the
contracts
are
delivered
and
the
value
for
money
covered
in
the
contracts
be
carried
out
under
the
scottish
government's
in
n
pd
model,
as
well
as
the
PA
fi
and
the
PPP
models.
Additionally,
one
of
the
code
report
recommendations
highlights
the
need
to
examine
the
current
payments
made
to
workers
by
the
amount
of
what
done
which
is
rafe
and
the
construction
industry.
F
They
need
four
checks
and
bounces
to
improve
monitoring,
to
be
put
in
place
by
all
public
sector
clients
engaged
in
buildings,
vital
and
infrastructure
projects
employed
by
clients
to
include
project
management
roles
and
clerk
of
works,
so
that
the
level
of
scrutiny
of
these
projects
ensures
tasks
have
been
carried
out
safely
and
to
the
highest
specification
is
important.
The
clients
show
leadership
in
the
sector
by
development
procurement
policies
supported
by
the
selection
of
contractors,
welded
to
develop
a
fair
construction
economy
in
eight
seas.
F
The
commitment
of
direct
employment,
apprenticeships
and
trade
union
recognitions
as
indicators
of
such
there
is
also
a
need
for
the
ability
of
clients
today,
disengaged
with
from
contracts
worst.
The
successful
tender
is
operate
in
concert
to
the
fair.
What
principles
and
including
the
recently
updated
best
practice
guidelines
that
may
be
deemed
further
change
and
the
public
contract
regulations,
exclusion
definition
and
scotland
plays
itself
and
been
a
nation
of
supporting
fair
work.
J
I
Thank
you
before
I
bring
you
back
in
mr.
Rogers
I
want
to
hear
from
mr.
Edgar
and
mr.
and
if
they
have
something
to
say
on
this,
but
specifically
I
want
to
know.
If
people
do
know
what
happened
at
Miguel's
I
mean
the
last
published
accounts
have
them.
You
know:
increased
turnover,
increased
profits
and
now
they've
closed
their
doors.
Does
anybody
know
what
happened.
B
Don't
know
what
I'm
not
going
to
comment
on
that
and
we
can't
comment
on
individual
cases
and
but
just
I
think
there
was
one
word
missing
from
Stephens
commentary.
There
are
now
as
transparency
I
think
in
procurement.
There
is
you
need
transparency,
I
think
there's
been
a
lack
of
that
for
some
time
now
and
most
comments.
B
Most
commentators
will
probably
agree
with
me
when
I
say
that
there
needs
to
be
changes
with
procurement
and
I
know
the
crime,
commercial
service
and
the
construction
Leadership
Council,
which
I'm
sure
Simon
can
find
more
insight
on
this
and
I
know
they
are
invoking
that
and
that
procurement
decisions
need
to
be
tight
about
social
value
and
payment
practices.
Okay,
I.
C
Think
the
only
observation
I'd
like
to
make
is,
of
course,
that
construction,
like
most
other
enterprise,
is
an
entrepreneurial
business.
These
are
risk-taking
businesses
and
we
know
that
there
are
many
sectors
that
are
under
pressure
now.
I
think
is
absolutely
correct
and
I
agree
with
Stephen
Ian's
that
in
2018
I
think
it's
at
a
very
large
number
of
construction
organizations,
mostly
very
small,
will
have
gone
into
administration
now.
C
The
second
lesson
learned
I,
think,
is
also
that
governor
actually
does
in
the
role
of
a
color,
such
as
Karelian,
have
a
the
opportunity
to
mitigate
some
of
the
impacts
and
I
believe
that
something
like
1500
or
2000,
apprenticeships
that
were
under
Korean
were
transfer
to
other
organizations
through
the
offices
of
bays
and
other
government
departments
to
mitigate
some
of
those
impacts.
So,
rather
than
just
sitting
back
and
letting
these
things
happen,
you
can
do
something
to
lessen
the
impacts
and
that
I
think
is
something
that
the
organizations
involved
can
be
rightly
proud
of
and.
I
E
I
I
just
wrap
this
up,
then
with
one
one
final
question,
because
what
I'm
picking
out
is
four
strands
from
you,
transparency
small
is
beautiful
to
give
it
a
name,
quality
and
costs
not
just
cost
and
the
use
of
contracts
to
secure
fairness
and
employment,
taking
all
that
into
account.
When
you
look
at
the
current
approach
in
Scotland,
which
is
a
framework
agreement
hub
companies,
does
that
approach,
favor
small
firms
or
does
it
mitigate
against
them?
D
Federation
has
any
success
in
the
hops
cascading
down
to
smaller
companies.
The
hubs
have
their
preferred
suppliers,
detractors
they're
used
to
working
with
them.
They
know
how
to
work
with
them,
they're
not
interested
in
it
classically
not
doing,
and
some
of
the
smaller
companies
I'm
not
interested
working
with
making
tractors
the
payment
terms.
Attention
doesn't
make
a
tractor
for
them.
All
they
are
doing
is
using
their
vernacular.
The
meager
finance
trees,
Natural
Resources,
to
underpin
the
were
doing
for
the
main
contractor.
F
Jackie
Hobbs
I
could
be
standard
tier-one
to
the
smoke
contractures
again
honey.
You
know
so
inch
by
one
the
smoking
try
to
forget
no
honey.
Let
me
get
song
for
the
Delaine
of
the
tea,
because
sometimes
just
contract
some
contracted
five
or
six
times
before
the
person
dies
they
physically.
It
does
the
job
you
know
so
I
didn't
we
need
start
for
the
bottom.
They
stopped
doing.
F
I
B
The
add
the
Scotch
Sesame's
are
being
squeezed
like
the
hub,
it's
as
simple
as
that,
it's
slightly
flawed
as
it
favors
large
that
companies
that
aren't
necessarily
Scottish,
based
or
or
you
know,
looking
into
the
retail
level
based
in
that
region
either.
You
know-
and
that's
that
can
be
concerning
for
for
local
business,
yeah.
C
I'ii
ieave
got
organizations
that
are
large
enough
to
undertake
sufficient
workload
with
an
organization
a
hub
to
create
some
consistency
of
delivery
and
efficiency
through
process
and
that
desire
to
cascade
work
through
to
a
larger
number
of
small
organizations,
and
I
would
observe
that
there
is
likely
to
be
trend
towards
increased
capitalization
of
construction
businesses,
for
example,
investment
in
offsite
manufacturing,
which
will
make
it
harder
for
small
undercapitalized
organizations
to
compete.
But
on
the
other
side,
that
should
create
the
position
where
the
employment
conditions
are
better
because
those
organizations
are
effectively.
C
A
D
Rogers
I
think
most
of
the
host
developers,
builders,
but
the
likes
to
developers
didn't
like
the
supply
chain
to
build.
Oasis
have
land
banks
a
little
bit
to
run
banks
in
see
some
value
before
they've
built
AC.
So
if
you're
looking
for
the
private
sector
to
build
massive
50,000,
what
more
races
you
may
be
really
something
it
may
be
better.
Looking
at
the
other
model
of
building,
affordable
homes
through
local
authorities
and
Haitian
associations.
D
D
But
that's
that's:
who
developers
develop
so
you
don't
buy
a
piece
of
land
built
on
a
railway.
You
generally,
they
couldn't
build
big
one
thinks
if
you
look
at
any
of
the
big
house,
builders
will
have
massive
land
banks,
even
though,
and
not
building
cases
and
not
building
Toshi's
until
the
saleable.
So
the
the
boom
teams
of
house
building
were
you
but
build
a
holy
holy
state
and
then
try
and
sell
it.
The
list
isn't
gone.
F
I,
don't
think
I
think
it
should
be
achievable.
Well
if
people
are
buying
land
at
all
arrested,
the
government
should
be
using
it.
The
pen
doesn't
take
it
back
after
them.
If
any
voltage
is
simple,
so
one
of
the
biggest
problems
are
going
to
have
their
boat
houses.
Is
the
labor
market
that
a
lot
of
major
projects
start
and
I'm
going
to?
Maybe
you've
got
s
to
you
Hank
the
point,
and
it's
going
to
drain
this
course.
According
me,
across
people,
that's
one
of
the
major
concerns.
F
That's
the
best
combination
of
we
are
going
to
have
a
skill
shortage.
We
need
contracting
out
hs2
it
takes
off
and
the
main
escort
is
what
cuz
I've
moved
in.
Hang
that
point,
you
know
I
mean
look
it
up
if
you're
Tommy,
Bowden
Isuzu-
maybe
maybe
maybe
Casey
piston
apprentice
numbers,
for
example,
so
it
can
hold
all
Saudis
buckingham,
enabling
that
so.
F
Never
planning
a
moved
in
from
the
back
of
one
of
the
biggest
projects
in
Scotland
more
to
the
biggest
projects.
Obviously,
with
the
bridge
and
the
you
know
that
was
deemed
bypass
yeah,
then
it
next
biggest
projects
they
join
in
the
inane
in
the
moment,
so
they're
all
heading
there
with
all
these
people
who
are
on
the
road
on
Aberdeen
are
heading
towards.
You
know,
hang
the
point
and
I
quiz
class
people.
You
know
Trekkies,
you
know
Jana's
required
tipo
de
Sade's,
so
we
need
to
their
plane.
Except
numbers
is
really
ball
disease,
but.
F
First
of
all,
you
know,
you
know,
make
sure
you've
got
the
line.
You've
got
the
go-ahead
to
both
the
hoses.
You've
got
the
finance
you
to
do
that
I.
You
know
you
still
need
the
workers.
At
the
end
of
the
day,
the
workers
are
critical
tomorrow.
What
you
do
cuz?
No,
no,
your
Tom!
It's
need
the
engine,
it's
not
gonna,
be
a
boat.
I
can
pure.
C
Just
a
clarification,
I
think
it's
important
that
the
committee
recognizes
that
the
supply
chain
and
a
labor
force
involved
in
the
delivery
of
housing
is
almost
completely
different
to
the
supply
chain
that
is
involved
in
the
delivery
of
large
civil
engineering.
I
think
that
that
is
something
that
is
worthwhile
recognizing
I,
think
housing
is
a
difficult
area,
but
it's
worthwhile
recognizing
that
the
increase
in
the
volume
of
housing
delivered
across
the
UK
over
the
past
five
years,
I
think
is
increased
by
30
or
40
percent.
C
I'm
very
happy
to
deliver
the
numbers
after
that,
so
it
is
possible
to
increase
increase
output.
I
think
it's
also
worthwhile
recognising
that
increasingly
large
strategic
land
sites
are
converted
into
housing
and
they
take
a
long
time.
So
the
let
win
review,
which
the
committee
may
be
familiar
with,
recognize
that
so
many
large
sites
took
about
10
years
to
deliver
in
housing,
because
of
course
you
can't
deliver
too
much
housing
into
a
market,
because
if
you
do
that
won't
be
the
sufficient
demand.
C
The
recommendations
of
the
latwon
review
were
to
change
them
tenure
mix,
so
they
have
a
blend
of
private,
affordable
and
social
housing.
So
you
can
accelerate
the
absorption
of
housing
into
a
local
market.
So
I
think
the
sense
that
if
you
deliver
lots
of
housing
the
people
will
come
is
the
kind
of
mistake
that's
been
made
in
China
over
the
past
five
or
ten
years,
where
you
have
these
ideas
of
cities
that
are
waiting
for
people
to
come
along.
C
So
I
think
that
sense
of
supporting
the
industry
to
increase
its
capacity
is
really
important
and
I
hope
that
the
committee
aware
of
the
great
success
that
Stuart
Mill
have
had
in
securing
I
believe
it's
a
share
of
ten
million
or
so
a
six
million
of
funding
in
conjunction
with
Barrett
homes
and
on
RSL
lmq
in
developing
off-site
manufacturing
innovation.
So
that's
something
they
secured
just
before
Christmas,
which
I
think
is
a
great
result
for
the
sector
and
a
great
result
for
a
very
innovative
Scottish
house
builder.
I.
Think.
K
Technological
changes
are
very
important,
there's
a
question
whether
we're
doing
enough
in
that
regard,
and
the
projections
are
that
something
like
a
quarter
of
construction
jobs
could
vanish
as
a
result
of
technology
which
would
help
alleviate
some
of
the
labour
shortage.
How
good
are
we
at
taking
advantage
of
these
technologies?
If
you.
D
D
We
need
to
be
able
to
connect
assuage
all
of
these
things
as
to
some
areas
of
the
country
that
are
more
abundant
because
you
can't
put
any
more
into
the
sewage
system,
so
there's
a
whole
lot
of
different
problems
there
that
were
lost,
slow,
the
actual
process
of
building
up
having
had
been
a
house
builder
and
many
years
ago,
slow
to
get
onto
site
officially,
and
that
needs
to
be
looked
at
and
speeded
up
in
some
way,
especially
any
affordable
market.
We're
now
looking
at
breaks
it
as
I
knew
deal
breaks
it.
D
K
B
I've
got
about
four
points
as
I
can
a
reaction
to
what's
been
going
on
here.
Firstly,
looking
at
infrastructure
than
homes,
modern
methods
of
construction
and
then
land
banking,
so
starting
with
infrastructure,
though
the
entire
UK
does
have
a
problem
with
an
infrastructure
deficit.
You
know
we
haven't
built
the
roads
of
rails
that
we
need.
We
haven't
maintained
the
existing
roads
or
rails
that
we
needed
an
housing.
You
know
as
another
example
the
Queen's
ferry
crossing
was,
you
know
a
great
piece
of
work.
B
You
know
to
work
that
that's
what
they
do,
so
it
would
be
prudent
of
the
Scots
coming
to
ensure
that
there's
a
pipeline
of
mega
projects
or
large-scale
projects
that
would
entice
new
talent
to
come
to
Scotland
and
work
and
also
remain
because
there's
a
project
to
move
on
to
next
and
moving
on
to
the
affordable
homes
target
and
the
three
billion
investment
over
five
years.
There's
a
significant
some.
It's
a
very
commendable
target,
the
drip
fed
approach.
You
know
the
800
million
pounds
per
budget
or
there
abouts.
That
mass
is
terrible.
B
Forgive
me
is
more
than
that.
Obviously,
that
that's
that's
good.
The
drip
fed
approach
you
know
makes
allows
developers
to
plan.
You
know
their
next
step,
but
ultimately,
what's
lacking-
and
this
goes
back
to
what
Simon
was
saying
as
well.
There's
we
need
to
widen
participation
in
the
housing
developer
sector
it
as
simple
as
that.
We
need
to
find
ways
to
encourage
SME
builders,
but
there's
other
approaches
out
there.
B
There's
there's
a
self
bill,
there's
a
a
growing
interest
in
people
wanting
to
build
their
own
homes,
but
you
know
like
supply
land
or
just
the
availability.
They
know
how
to
do
it,
that's
a
problem.
If
we
encourage
different,
tenures
and
different
participants,
we
will
increase
ten.
Your
choice
will
increase
type.
We
can
actually
start
building
homes
that
people
actually
want
to
live
in,
and
you
know
have
the
requirements
that
they
need
in
the
home
modern
methods
of
construction
very
quickly.
This
isn't
a
new
new
concept.
You
know
it's
been
around
for
a
while.
B
It
takes
many
forms,
off-site
construction,
prefab
homes,
modular
and
generally
the
greater
use
of
technology,
and
it
is
a
way
to
tackle
the
skill
shortage,
but
less.
Let's
recognize
that
it's
not
the
panacea.
You
know
it
will
contribute
to
the
killer's
skill
shortage,
where
we
can't
just
build
every
everything
that
we
need
in
a
factory.
B
You
know,
ultimately,
developers
have
to
know
what
the
next
point
is
coming
on
to
you
know
what
where
they,
where
and
what
they're
going
to
build
next
and
whether
that
one
person's
land
banking
could
be
another
person's
pipeline
and
that's
something
which
we
need
to
be
careful
of
it.
So
it
might
be
prudent
to
look
at
planning
permissions
and
you
know
kind
of
investigate
where
they
are
and
to
see
you
know.
What's
actually,
you
know
in
development
plans,
and
you
know
what's
being
held
up
and
where
and
why.
L
Thanks
so
much
convener
m-maybe,
if
I
can
kind
of
have
a
salute
to
the
future
a
bit,
and
some
things
have
been
mentioned
already
about
where
you'd
like
to
see
things
change
in
the
future
yeah.
But
that's
kind
of
eerie
I'd
like
to
concentrate
on
and
specifically
to
start
with,
the
construction,
Scotland
Innovation
Center,
which
I
believe
started
in
2014.
D
L
B
And
a
lot
to
say
on
it,
I
mean
I've
got
a
an
infographic
here
and
you
know
it
supports
206
projects.
To
date,
only
a
few
competed
do,
you
know,
stood
the
infographic
out
there.
You
know
the
automation
that
they
provide
it's.
It
shows
that
it's
you
know
it's
it's
good,
you
know.
Is
it's
a
good
organization,
it's
a
good
center.
But
again
it's
you
know
not
that
many
people
are
aware
of
it,
as
illustrated
by
in
so
more
can
be
done
to
advertiser.
I
think
the
work
that
undertakes
is
good.
So.
C
Right
can
I
mister
on
sex
and
observations
from
the
perspective
of
the
construction,
Leadership
Council
and
the
sector
deal
which
was
published
in
July
2018
and
which
applies
uk-wide
and
and
all
I'd.
The
case
I'd
like
to
make.
Is
there
a
certain
clues
that
that
sex
deal
sets
which,
if
the
Scottish
government
could
follow
in
its
setting
of
policy
I
think
would
help
create
some
momentum
around
common
themes
and
if
I
just
there
are
three
themes
that
I
think
are
important
to
pick
up
on,
most
rely
on
collaboration.
C
The
first
is
that
there
is
a
there
is
a
collaborative
innovation
group.
It's
called
the
infra,
it's
called
the
i3p,
which
is
the
infrastructure,
innovation,
industry,
innovation,
partnership,
which
brings
together
clients,
contractors
and
designers
to
Co
fund
innovation,
and
at
the
moment
it's
it's
working
on
understanding
what
those
common
opportunities
might
be
so
that
that
potentially
could
bring
together
a
R&D
funding,
which
might
be
many
many
tens
of
millions
of
pounds
for
that.
So.
C
A
UK
wide
body
right
represented
by
UK
wide
organisations,
so
yes,
there
will
be.
There
will
be
parties
that
the
second
is
that
there
are
actions
that
the
government
is
taking
and
that's
national
government
again
around
developing
common
ways
of
delivering
particularly
again
off-site
manufactured
house,
not
housing,
other
buildings.
So
in
the
in
the
UK
budget
in
2017,
there
was
an
announcement
around
a
presumption
for
off-site
manufacture
by
five
government
departments,
so
that
would
be
Ministry
of
Justice
transport,
health
defence.
C
In
such
light
and
again,
if
the
Scottish
Punk
could
follow
up
with
a
similar
presumption
around
a
similar
way
of
delivering,
and
there
is
a
current
inquiry
by
the
infrastructure
projects
authority
into
what's
called
product
based
design
for
manufacturing
assembly.
That
would
create
again
further
what
you
describe
as
a
a
fighters
have
got
common
ways
of
working
to
deliver
greater
productivity
and
the
only
other
area
which
I'd
focus
would
be
around
again
infrastructure
and
procurement.
C
Picking
up
the
point
about
the
long
term
pipeline
very
important
and
then
in
terms
of
using
it
as
a
means
of
procuring
in
a
common
way
and
whether
that's
using,
for
example,
a
balanced
scorecard
to
emphasize
lifetime
value,
creating
skills
and
employment
or
by
employed
by
procuring
two
different
techniques
off-site
manufacturing.
That
creates
a
common
approach
that
people
can
invest
into.
I.
Think
one
of
the
messages
that
your
your
two
house
builders
have
demonstrated
is
they
have
lack
of
confidence
in
their
being
one
solution
that
they
should
put
their
money
into
I.
C
C
There
is
no,
there
is
no
presumption
for,
for
example,
housing
associations
to
do
that,
but
they
are
increasingly
very
significant
players
in
the
house
in
housing
development.
They
work
out
volume
and
they
work
at
speed.
So
they
could
potentially
work
together
to
create
greater
consistency
and
again,
I
will
share
a
publication
which
we
put
out
in
the
press
in
gugus
September
last
year,
which
described
how
ourselves
could
join
together
to
procure
jointly
on
off
stock
manufacturing.
L
I
think,
mr.
Rogers,
what
to
commend
mr.
I'll
take
mr.
Hager
first
name
mr.
Rogers
I
mean.
Can
you
I
mean
we're
going
to
a
lot
of
these
things
that
coming
up
today
we're
going
to
spend
more
time
on
in
the
future,
so
we're
just
trying
to
get
an
introduction,
but
I
still
would
be
interested
today
to
hear
you
know
what
are
the
Coquina
key
arguments
for
and
against
off-site
construction,
because
you
know
I've
heard
a
little
bit
about
already
that
it
might
be
safer
and
better
working
conditions.
L
B
The
point
on
the
quality
of
the
homes
built
it's
they
get
pulled
up
very
quickly
and
you've
ever
been
in
sight
when
it
feels
like
you're.
Just
in
a
normal.
You
know
on-site
built
house,
that's
my
experience.
You
know
everyone's
different,
you
know
I'm
sure
the
to
house
build,
as
you
mentioned,
may
have
different
views
in
the
you
know.
Their
experiences
might
have
led
to
their
views
on
that.
I
just
want
to
pick
up
a
point
that
Simon
made
about
a
role
I
of
MCC
or
parliamentary
or
government
support
for
the
right
of
MNC.
B
We
have
to
recognize
that
with
that
we
do
need
to
obstacle
the
workforce.
You
know
I
think
that's
one
of
the
first
out
one
thing
we'd
have
to
recognize:
is
we
can't
just
you
know,
introduce
a
you
know
a
presumption
in
favor
of
MMC
in
cutting
public
contracts
without
and
without
an
obstacle
of
the
workforce
problem.
B
And
also
every
good
of
them
regulator
has
become
a
little
more
familiar
with
MCC
products,
and
so
then
sort
of
a
better
for
me
relates
to
the
offer
of
MMC
as
well
was
it
was
there
just
two
things
and
I
can
expand
and
most
further
in
my
written
evidence.
Okay,
that's
great
thanks
opposed
to
Rogers.
You
wanted
to
come
in
here.
Haven't.
D
Been
a
host
builder
in
a
past
life
we
did
both
of
psychosocial
unconventional
and
they
both
the
different
roles.
When
houses
are
selling
as
quickly,
we
would
go
into
conventional
construction,
which
is
a
slow
form
of
destruction
of
site.
The
off-site.
You
need
very
high
quality
assurance
on-site
dissipation
because,
following
trades
at
the
rep,
the
vapor
barriers,
they're,
ripping
the
heart
of
the
home
and
letting
condensation
into
the
insulation
and
the
wooden
structure
itself,
so
the
the
quality
control
there
has
to
be
much
better
on-site.
So.
D
F
Salesforce
consumable
uni
is
not
opposed
to
any
innovation
on
automation
or
the
July,
the
daylight
Asian
of
the
sector
perceive
as
air
force'.
The
benefits
of
automation
need
to
be
harnessed
that,
since
you
have
positive
benefit
for
workers
across
all
sectors,
including
construction,
they
are
being
in
some
of
these
construction
states
that
basically
explain
it
tastes,
lebesgue
the
aircraft,
hangar,
the
boat
sections
of
the
house
and
the
aircraft
Tyga
there's
one
of
them
just
to
say
than
finesse
and
did
deliver
the
host
of
the
sea.
F
So
the
state
grain
what's
already
done,
it's
not
bad
a
Lego
cut,
so
click
together-
and
you
know
it's
really
good
the
good
thing
about
that.
As
a
sefer,
it's
proved
to
be
safer,
it's
better
conditions,
just
that
you
said
you
know
well
health
and
safety
conditions,
because
you
know
over
50
construction
workers
can't
let
nobody
young,
so
I
thought
help.
Stop
a
Lordan
it'd
be
great.
The
good
thing
about
it
saves
you
productivity,
because
there's
no
don't
team
construction,
houseboat
and
sector
they
just
plagued.
F
We
don't
team
because
he
were
not
in
the
best
cleaver
here,
let's
say
in
Scotland.
So,
oh
we're
going
to
harness
all
that
stuff
and
the
Scottish
government
should
be
involved
in
harm.
I
said
that
those
technologies
available
there.
This
should
be
fitting
some
fundamental
as
well
I,
don't
know
if
you
do,
but
you
should
be
looking
it
up
and
it
makes
it
easier
for
construction
workers
and
the
families,
and
my
view
is
a
good
thing
and.
L
On
the
skills
thing
again,
I
mean
who
obviously,
as
a
different
skill,
set
building
something
off-site
and
then
putting
it
together
on
the
site
compared
to
your
traditional
bricklayers
and
all
the
rest
of
it.
Who'd
you
see
is
responsible,
for
you
know,
upskilling
the
workforce,
or
just
at
at
least
adapting
the
skills
is
that
the
individual.
F
F
The
Jaina
stone
is
too
pure
only
doors,
you
know,
and
all
that
is
that
so
it's
just
placed
in
the
workers
and
a
bit
instead
of
innately
on
the
snow
and
the
cold
and
it
driving
in
that
I'm,
good
accommodation
where
the
units
of
bimbo
you
stole
need
across
people.
But
what
will
it
protect
again
as
people
trying
to
award
there
is
no
his
classmen
to
see?
Oh,
we
can
this
make
you
fat
the
doors
you'll
adore
farm,
like
you
know,
just
don't
enable
Jana,
just
you're,
just
a
dwarf,
our
union
will
be
protected.
C
Has
published
research
which
looks
at
the
specific
skill
sets
that
are
needed
to
support
the
development
of
the
off-site
industry
and
they
they,
as
I,
think
Ian
particularly
pointed
out
the
Supervisory
skills,
and
so
the
the
the
main
contractor
skills
of
understanding
how
the
process
changes
is
really
important
to
get
the
productivity
gains.
I
think
there
are
supervisory
skills
around
how
you
work
a
factory
as
well
to
get
the
maximum
productivity
out
of
that
and
I.
L
L
J
Very
much
convener
and
in
2016
the
farmer
review
was
published,
modernizer
die
and
identified
a
lot
of
problems
and
the
construction
center
and
low
productivity,
love
predictability.
Structural
fragmentation
per
industry,
image,
work
for
size
and
demographics
is
centra.
I
know
the
construction,
Leadership
Council
are
doing
a
bit
of
work
to
take
this
forward,
I'm
just
wondering
what
impact
this
report
has
had,
specifically
in
Scotland,
and
whether
it's
lessons
have
been
learned
by
the
industry
here.
D
C
Perhaps
I
can
just
make
one
positive
contribution
to
this,
which
is
that
the
the
committee
may
or
may
not
be
familiar
with
the
proposals
of
Heathrow
Airport
to
establish
a
logistics
hub
in
Scotland.
So
this
is.
This
is
effectively
the
construction
of
Heathrow
with
a
overall
value
of
I.
Believe
36
billion
over
ten
years
will
take
place
rather
than
in
crowded
South
East
England.
C
It
will
take
place
across
the
UK
and
those
components
will
be
placed
into
containers
and
will
be
then
taken
down
to
the
southeast
of
England
for
assembly
and
that
I
think
is
probably
as
good
an
articulation
you're
going
to
get
of
large
clients.
Thinking
of
the
farmer
principles
of
how
do
we
deal
with
the
skill
shortage
challenge?
J
C
C
Every
industry
reform
agenda
over
the
past
10-15
years,
so
Andrew,
Wilson
home,
for
example,
who
ex
chair
of
the
CLC
very
closely
involved
in
Heathrow,
wrote,
wrote
the
project,
never
waste,
a
good
crisis,
so
so
I
think
that
organization
has
been
at
the
forefront
of
construction
innovation
over
an
extended
period
of
time
and
I
would
not
disagree
that
there
there
that
the
lobbying
power
of
being
able
to
spread
construction
around
around
the
country
is
is
very
powerful,
but
they
also
are
a
leading
light
in
the
way
that
you
changed
the
way
we
deliver
construction.
Ok,.
J
B
I
think
the
political
uncertainty,
more
than
anything,
that's
beginning
to
take
its
toll
on
commercial
and
industrial
activity
in
Scotland.
The
protracted,
open
certainty
caused
by
the
stalemate,
there's
becoming
ever
more
apparent
and
with
were
closing
commercial
industrial
sectors,
so
many
ours
to
grinding
to
a
halt
across
the
UK.
Now
this
is
a
uk-wide
issues,
not
necessarily
focused
just
on
Scotland
and
actually
anecdotally.
Some
of
our
professional
members
have
started
seeing
brexit
qualifications
attached
to
tender
returns,
stating
that
she
do
you
can
leave
with
a
no
deal
on
the
29th
of
March.
B
D
C
On
the
the
skills
white
paper,
the
thresholds
30,000,
the
the
barrier
is
more
actually
around
the
employment
model
and
and
the
issue
of
self-employment
has
been
raised
already,
both
the
the
skilled
route
and
the
temporary
route,
which
potentially
could
work
very
well
for
overseas
construction
workers,
most
of
whom
currently
don't
spend
more
than
a
year
in
the
UK.
But
it
relies
on
a
sponsor
and
currently
the
model
which
is
typically
agency.
A
agencies
have
so
effectively
represented
and
then
self-employed
people
isn't
go.
They
aren't
going
to
work
through
that
sector.
C
So
again,
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
this
committee
could
play
back
to
whether
it's
this
of
the
the
migrator
advisory
committee
or
all
better
to
Westminster
is
is
through
the
consultation
on
that
skills
white
paper,
because
it
doesn't
give
a
solution
to
construction.
Whilst
the
CLC
ran
a
conference
in
London
two
weeks
ago
and
in
addition,
skills
which
have
covered
I,
think
there
are
two
areas
which
we
highlighted:
one
one
which
is
flow
of
goods
and-
and
this
is
particularly
I-
think
because
the
industry
is
so
fragmented.
C
It
is
very
difficult
to
understand
what
goods
might
get
stuck
in
what
bit
of
supply
chain.
So
if
we
take
a
building
like
this,
it's
very
easy
to
see
the
external
curtain
wall
and
say:
yes,
we
can
order
that
in
advance
and
we
can
make
sure
that
arrives
on
time,
but
some
of
the
products
are
going
to
the
installation.
You
might
not
know
when
they're
going
to
be
delivered
or
who
they're
going
to
come
from.
C
So
that's
a
that
lack
of
transparency
is
a
real
challenge
and
the
other
thing
which
potentially
might
happen
is
around
cash
flow
with.
If
we
go
into
No
Deal
situation,
v80
would
have
to
be
paid
at
the
border,
whereas
currently,
of
course,
it's
only
paid
when
when
products
are
sold,
so
that
is
a
potential
cash
flow
for
importers.
C
Final
one
is
around
product
regulation
and-
and
this
is
potentially
a
significant
issue
for
exporters,
because
when
we
leave
the
EU,
then
UK
manufactured
products
will
no
longer
be
certified
for
use
in
the
EU,
so
they
will
have
to
be
certified
twice
once
in
the
UK
once
elsewhere,
so
that
becomes
a
barrier
for
our
exporting
manufacturers.
As
well
as
those
importing
products.
F
Our
view
as
the
scenes
that
West
Minister
over
the
past
year,
we
should
be
embarrassing
for
this
country
politics.
As
far
as
blacks
is
concerned,
construction
workers
basically
have
had
enough.
They
all
aflame
deny
raining
and
even
the
understand
that
a
lot
of
place
in
a
she's
getting
shelf
because
it
uncertainty,
including
the
job
security,
is
receding.
F
We
my
goals
but
Bolivia
context
that
will
be
clear
on
the
possession
union
is
ting
and
this
extremely
serious
model
of
work
for
Bush
cotton
in
the
UK
economy
in
each
policies
are
democratic,
agreed
by
the
members
of
conference
and
a
2016.
This
area
possession,
except
in
the
result
of
the
referendum
on
the
UK
membership
of
the
EU,
their
priorities
for
dealing
with
the
process
of
breaks
up
of
Parliament
to
any
UK
future.
F
B
Just
a
couple
of
points
as
quickly
on
the
impact
of
brexit
and
one
of
the
issues
haven't
even
brought
up,
is
the
European
Investment
Bank
and
how
much
infrastructure
supports
in
the
UK
relieve
the
EU
with
or
without
a
deal
that
chances
are.
We
will
lose
access
to
this
very
this
vital
funding
stream
and
a
present
I.
Don't
think
the
UK
government
has
planned
to
introduce
any
kind
of
replacement
funding
mechanism
for
the
EIB
now
in
Scotland.
We
also
have
obviously
have
these
national
investment
bank
and
the
precursor.
B
The
building
Scotland
fund
I'm
still
not
entirely
clear
how
the
funding
mechanisms
work
for
them,
but
I
could
be
used
to
support
infrastructure
projects
and
going
back
to
my
earlier
point
mega
projects
and
on
a
final
point
again.
This
goes
back
to
procurement.
The
the
EU
procurement
rules
are
very
stringent.
You
know
Ben
they're,
very
good
because
they
prevent
many
kind
of
mishaps
or
bad
deeds
in
the
becomin
process.
B
However,
with
the
UK
departing
from
procurement,
you
know
we
do
have
the
opportunity
to
set
up
our
own
procurement
and
within
that
and
I'm
assuming
shoot,
but
within
that
model
of
the
future
procurement
model,
we
could
place
an
emphasis
on
the
use
of
local
trades
local
materials.
You
know
which
are
present
you're
not
like
to
do
so.
I
think
this
opportunity
with
brexit
I,
think.
F
Thanks
for
that,
Shevin
can
I
just
say
that
you
know
it's
one
thing
we
have
not
released
waka
bitterness,
then
this
be
committed
myself,
employment
practice
of
you
know.
Employing
people
in
this
industry
are
many.
Other
companies,
that's
peaceable,
you're,
a
member
said
to
us
and
I.
Think
it's
quite
cool.
You
listen
here.
I
wait
for
a
text.
F
Every
Friday
I
see
something
he
was
go
number
L
accompany
faded
to
see
if
I'll
be
working
the
following
week,
I
pick
a
holiday
and
go
away
with
my
family
there's
a
real
chance
that
my
place
of
work
will
be
taken
by
another
worker
and
they'll
have
no
work.
I'll
take
a
day
off,
I
may
be
replaced,
I
can
call
in
sick
I
may
be
replaced
if
I,
don't
what
every
shaft
I'm
offered,
no
matter
how
short
notice
I
may
be
replaced.
F
I
pay
a
number
L
accompany
a
fee
of
100
pounds
per
week
and
get
my
own
wages
to
get
my
own
wages.
I
have
no
holiday
P,
no
sack
P,
nu,
1,
Peter,
D,
P
I
can't
work
anywhere
else.
I
have
no.
What,
if
there's
no
work
for
a
few
weeks
and
the
real
industry
I
can
only
have
one
sponsor
my
whole
DP
is
actually
a
percentage
of
my
net
income.
That's
taking
off
when
I
get
back
at
gross,
so
it's
tax
twice,
I
also
pissed,
both
employers
and
employees,
national
insurance.
A
Thank
you,
I
think,
that's
a
completely
new
point
and
I
see
and
Rodgers
might
want
to
bring
in
yet
another
new
points.
The
will
swill
stop
there.
Thank
you
very
much.
We've
run
over
our
time,
so
thank
you
to
our
witnesses.
I'll
suspend
the
meeting
this
point
to
change
over
witnesses.
Thank
you
very
much
for
coming
into
all
four
of
you.
A
A
A
A
A
A
Well,
welcome
back
to
this
morning's
meeting
and
I
would
like
to
welcome
two
witnesses.
One
of
our
scheduled
witnesses.
Matt
Lancashire's,
had
to
give
his
apology,
so
we
have
with
us
dr.
Stuart
McIntyre
from
the
Frazer
valanor
Institute
and
John
McClaren
of
Scottish
trends,
so
welcome
to
both
of
you
and
I'll
start
with
questions
from
Jackie
Baillie.
Thank.
I
You
very
much
convener
I
want
to
explore
with
them
you
this
morning,
the
impact
of
the
construction
sector
on
Scotland's
GDP,
and
indeed,
some
of
the
changes
in
methodology.
So
I
wonder
if
we
can
start
off
with
just
a
in
your
view,
how
important
is
the
construction
sector
to
Scotland's
GDP
performance.
I
M
M
Scottish
government
have
respond
to
done
something
different
that
has
changed.
The
our
understanding
of
the
last
can
four
five
years
worth
of
economic
growth
in
Scotland,
as
if
changed
methodology
talk
without
in
a
second
to
something
which
is
I,
think
approximating
a
better
methodology.
It's
not
perfect
and
there's
still
work
to
be
done
on,
but
one
the
measurements,
a
progress
is
be
made.
I
think
this
feasibly
score
for
further
progress,
particularly
as
we
move
to
greater
use
of
v80
data.
M
So
one
of
the
the
issues
at
the
moment,
or
one
of
the
issues
that
that
we
for
three
is
was:
if
you
looked
at
activity
in
the
construction
sector,
it
seemed
to
bear
little
relation
over
the
kind
of
last
four
year
period
to
port.
We
knew
to
be
activity:
employment,
for
instance,
in
the
construction
sector.
A
big
part
of
that
was
down
to
the
way
that
the
construction
sector
data
produced
by
ons
was
being
corporate,
then
to
the
Scottish
GDP.
M
Yes,
I
was
a
startling
point,
so
that's
essentially
that
issue
was
addressed
to
some
degree
by
by
what
undertaken
by
the
Scottish
government
statisticians
so,
rather
than
relying
on
orders
data
to
apportion
regionally
the
data
that
way
nests
were
collecting
in
a
monthly
basis
about
construction
sector
turnover.
So
that
was
the
previous
methodology.
Was
the
ons
were
conducted,
a
monthly
construction
survey,
getting
informational
and
tunnel
for
the
construction
sector,
and
then
data
on
new
orders
was
being
used
so
portion
that
cross
regions,
and
that
was
essentially
the
primary
input
to
Scotia
government's
construction
series.
M
As
I
say
it.
There
are
problems
with
that.
We
saw
that
and
in
particular
we
saw
quite
an
explosion
almost
in
what
that
suggests.
At
construction
sector
growth
had
been
through
the
PA
2050
to
14
15,
which
you
know
if
you'd
seen,
that
sort
of
increasing
and
construction
GDP
you'd
expect
to
see
some
reflection
of
that
employment
in
the
construction
sit
and
just
we
didn't
so.
M
The
Scottish
government
have
now
moved
to
a
different
methodology,
which
is
essentially
based
on
the
use
of
the
the
overall
data
from
from
LuAnn
s
in
terms
of
overall
turnover.
In
the
construction
sector,
but
they're
just
using
a
different
way
of
apportioning
that
essentially
in
order
to
get
a
series
that
they
think
closer
matches
activity
in
the
construction
sector.
So
sorry
that
was
a
really
long
answer,
but
it.
I
M
Number
of
homes
was
using
the
orders
data,
one
of
which
is
that
orders
data
cancel.
If
you
take
her
an
offshore
Wen's
development
sea,
which
I
think
was
the
example
Scotia
government
used.
If
that's
being,
you
know
that
project
that
Ord
was
being
being
lodged
with
with
a
company
headquarters,
the
UK
that
might
give
a
different
picture.
If
you
look
at
if
you
regionalize
the
UK
date
or
the
GB
data
on
the
basis
of
orders
placed
than
if
that
had
been
company
headquarters
in
Scotland.
So
so
we're
these.
M
These
company
headquarters,
where
the
orders
a
place,
but
actually
the
supply
chain,
could
be,
could
be
elsewhere.
So,
as
I
said,
I
think
the
the
v80
data
and
moves
towards
that
will
improve
GP
measurement
generally,
but
I
think
will
Oaks
will
help,
in
particular
with
a
short-term
measurement
construction,
open,
okay,.
I
N
It's
it's
a
good
indicator
that
the
economy
is
doing
well.
I
mean
construction
is
a
very
erotic
series,
so
when
it
goes
down,
it
tends
to
go
down
more
than
so.
This
after
say,
2008
I
think
it
went
down
almost
15
percent
in
2009
where's
the
economy
as
a
whole
went
down
two
percent,
but
then,
when
it
boons
as
we've
seen
in
recent
years,
it
goes
up
by
buy
more,
but
because
of
that
erratic
that
erratic
Ness
plus
the
difficulty
of
collecting
the
data.
It
makes
a
difficult
series
to
have
much
faith
in.
N
N
Itself
was
saying
or
we're
in
the
doldrums
I
don't
know
where
this
is
coming
from
now
it's
been
revised
back
to
something
like
10
or
12
percent,
which
is
still
a
lot.
But
having
said
that,
the
ons
haven't
revised
their
figures.
Their
regional
figures
still
show
this
enormous
rise
infrastructure
doubling.
So
it's
no
by
far
the
biggest
sector.
So
there's
still
some
issues,
I
mean
the
Scottish
government
is
saying
that's
and
on
their
measure
that
what
the
ons
is
so
yeah.
N
What
the
way
s
is
counting
as
construction
is
actually
engineering
or
something
else
into
in
relation
to
the
to
the
energy
that
offshore
and
onshore
wind
wind
machines.
So
there's
a
there's,
a
problem
there
in
so
like
defining
necessarily
is
that
construction
or
is
it
something
something
else?
So
it's
it's
an
important
weather
vane
as
to
how
well
the
economy
is
doing,
but
not
a
particularly
reliable
one.
N
So
if
you've
got
something,
that's
going
up,
33
percent
and
then
it
you
as
the
government
you
saying
play
hell,
we
should
be
doing
something
about
this
or
maybe
the
economy's
overheating
more
important
of
the
UK
level
with
macro
powers.
But
you
would
be
saying,
but
if
actually
was
only
going
up,
12
percent
or
even
less
you've
probably
made
the
wrong
policy
decision,
so
it's
important
to
keep
an
eye
on
it,
but
also
not
to
put
too
much
faith
in
what
is
showing
and
the
other
thing
is.
N
But
if
in
this
area,
which
I
think
is
quite
important
but
but
Israel
is
really
commented,
Owen
is
at
the
time
of
this
when
it
was
massively
increasing
in
Scotland,
and
they
were
trying
to
think
of
ways
why
this
this
was
wrong,
which
we've
now
got
this
thing
about
the
energy
industry.
One
of
the
other
theories-
and
this
probably
is
true
to
some
extent-
was
there
a
lot
of
the
new
infrastructure
stuff,
particularly
the
fourth,
the
second
fourth
Bridge
was
actually
being
done
by
overseas
firms,
so
the
profits
were
being
it
looked
like.
N
There
was
a
lot
of
extra
activity.
Employment
was
classified.
There
was
no
increase
in
employment
at
all,
even
though
Pompey
had
increased
by
33
percent
and
what
was
happening.
What
might
have
been
happening
was
that
the
people
working
on
the
fourth
or
second
bridge
and
other
places
like
that
were
coming
from
other
parts
of
the
UK
or
abroad,
doing
specialist
work
and
so
were
never
counted
as
being
in
Scotland.
N
So
that
means
that
in
an
area
like
that,
then
G&I
gross
national
income
is
much
more
important
than
GDP,
but
were
still
at
early
stages
of
getting
a
gia
and
I
figure.
First
called
gni
is
also
very
important,
much
more
important
force,
:
than
say
the
UK,
because
it
has
a
huge
impact
on
things
like
the
energy
sector,
much
of
its
foreign
owned
fish
farming,
most
of
it
for
Lou
and
the
North
Sea
North
Sea
oil
banking.
N
N
Is
in
their
gift
and
now
developing
it,
but
it's
very
difficult
to
develop
because
you
have
to
you
have
to
know
the
ownership
of
the
of
the
company
and
how
much
of
the
profits
are
remitted
now
going
overseas,
that's
difficult!
But
no,
you
know
it's
doable,
but
within
the
UK,
that's
extremely
difficult.
Would
you
do
with
Tesco?
You
know
what
do
you
do
with
there's
other
companies
so
there?
N
Maybe
it's
uk-based,
or
what
do
you
do
with
the
RBS
it's
Scottish
based,
but
most
of
its
profits
are
coming
from
from
England,
so
it
becomes
very
complicated
and
very
costly
if
you
want
to
put
the
econ
and
off
economic
effort
into
statistical
effort
into
actually
getting
reliable
figures,
so
they
are
doing
producing
these
figures,
but
only
a
Scotland
is
a
whole
level
and
it's
still
quite
early
stages.
But
it's
a
very
difficult
task.
Okay,.
G
Yet
you
know
when
you
look
at
the
economy
as
a
whole,
some
truths
by
around
30%
so
I
would
be
really
interested
to
know
and
what?
What
is
this
about?
And
what
are
the
implications
of
this?
Are
these
figures
indeed
reliable,
and
if
so,
what
would
be
the
solutions
to
improving
productivity
within
this
particular
sector?.
N
Just
because
of
pickup
from
some
things
have
been
seen
before
any
figures:
good
back
to
95,
1945
I,
wouldn't
pay
an
awful
lot
of
attention
to
even
1994.
I,
actually
think
those
figures
for
1994
a
focused
construction
in
a
construction
Scotland
article
I
think
they
relate
to
the
UK,
because
there's
only
Scottish
figures
as
far
as
I'm
aware
back
to
1998,
but
the
bigger
picture
is
yes.
Productivity
is
important
in
the
construction
sector.
It
is
traditionally
low
because
there's
a
lot
of
self-employment.
That's
there's
this!
It's
not
a
better,
particularly
industry.
That's
this!
N
There's
the
Scottish
figures
that
I've
got
here
which
go
back
to
1998,
just
to
show
how
I
wouldn't
be
much
weight
on
phone
numbers
shows
that
in
19
2015
productivity
increased
in
the
construction
sector
in
terms
of
output
per
over
by
27
percent,
completely
an
utter
rubbish.
I
mean
you
know,
it's
impossible,
I
think
it's
almost
pretty
much
technically
impossible
to
do
that.
So
what's
happened,
outputs
gone
up
a
bit,
employments
gone
down,
no,
so
to
get
to
productivity.
N
So
it's
a
very
difficult
area
to
get
a
good
handle
on
not
just
in
Scotland
but
throughout.
So
it's
one
of
these
things.
Yes,
productivity
is
extremely
important,
but
do
we
have
a
good
handle
on
it?
Not
at
all
so
I
wouldn't
believe
those
productivity
figures
are
currently
published
and
unfortunately,
that
has,
if
you
imagine,
construction
industry
going
increasing
by
27
percent
in
one
year.
N
So
this
is
a
whole
area
that
needs
to
be
again
taken
with
care,
even
though
it
is
probably
one
of
the
most
important
areas
in
terms
of
improving
and
to
improve
productivity
is
just
the
usual
you
know,
sort
of
like
we
have
low
R&D
low
innovation,
especially
in
in
construction.
There
may
be
an
issue
where
skills
will
probably
get
onto
that
later
on,
but
there's
you
know,
there's
quite
a
lot
of
areas.
Export
more
exports,
therefore,
that
you
could
do,
but
perhaps
those
policies
will
get
into
more
okay.
G
Before
I
turn
to
mr.
at
market
own
witness
mark
Ladner's
and
given
a
really
an
interest
in
deconstruction
of
statistics,
of
the
reliability
or
not
of
measuring
productivity,
but
is
there
anything
that
would
help
us
get
a
better
handle
on
productivity
with
and
construction?
Is
there
something
we're
not
doing,
there's
a
different
approach?
We
should
be
taken.
N
I
mean
you
could
go
to
to
more
micro
data
and
look
at
it
in
terms
of
say,
businesses,
I
have
there'll,
be
the
things
quite.
A
lot
of
construction
is
not
one
area,
it's
it's.
It's
public,
its
housing.
It's
been
for
structure,
its
repairs
and
maintenance,
and
it's
commercial
and
industrial,
and
all
of
these
will
have
different
we'd,
be
quite
different.
So,
but,
if
you're
in
say
infrastructure
or
housing,
you
could
perhaps
go
to
some
big
companies
and
say:
can
we
have
a
look
at
your
data?
G
N
I
mean
I
think
if
we'd,
if
we
had
that
understanding
somewhere
in
the
in
the
in
the
Scottish
Government
of
the
statisticians
of
the
economists,
we
would
never
have
been
saying
that
the
the
GDP
had
been
increased
by
33
percent
I've
been
doing
any
columnist
ever
believed
that,
but
it
was
another
thing,
any
statisticians
believe
it,
but
is
still
published.
But
if
you
didn't,
if
you,
if
you
had
that
relationship
with
the
companies
themselves,
they'd
be
telling
you
this
is
no.
This
is
not
right.
G
M
That
and
actually
some
points
in
relation
to
questions
from
Jackie
Baillie
earlier
that
may
just
be
worth
clarifying
a
little
better.
One
is
a
lot
of
them
measurement
issues.
We've
got
the
construction
states
are
armed.
You
know
construction
sector
in
2010,
2011
2012,
which
are
much
better
benchmarked
against
supply
use
tables
and
are
much
better
at
understanding
of.
M
What's
actually
happening,
can
you
of
the
EBS
states
at
the
farm
level,
microdata
that
help
us
help
Scotia
government
at
sessions
produced
to
a
source,
the
tables
so
I
think
the
issue
around
data
and
the
numerator,
as
we
just
talked
about,
is,
is
about
the
short-term.
It's
the
last
few
years
until
we've
got
Lewis
sorts,
a
benchmark
data,
so
while
data
quality
is,
of
course,
an
issue
and
I
think
quite
a
lot
has
been
done
around
that.
M
To
be
honest,
it's
it's
much
more
acute
in
the
immediate
past,
which
you
know
there's
what
gets
a
head
length
you
want
to
know
is
construction
up
or
down
in
the
sport
or
wherever
so
I
said
worth
being
a
mind
when
we
think
about
opening
the
construction
sector.
I
think
a
couple
other
points
worth
making
one
is
when
we
talk
about
output
in
the
construction
sector,
that
itself
song
a
subset
of
construction
output,
a
lot
of
what
we
intuitively
think
about
as
activity
in
construction
takes
place
in
other
sectors.
M
So
we
focus
in
on
this
this
construction
sector
as
defame
for
the
national
counts,
but
that
a
mets
quite
a
lot
of
what
you
made
intuitive
a
think
of
construction
as
being
as
a
product.
So
you
know
we
just
need
to
be
slightly
careful,
I,
think
about
focusing
in
very
narrowly
and
that's
that
sector
as
defined
and
ignoring
activity
elsewhere.
M
But
even
within
that
sector,
I
mean
that
sex
itself
is
building,
it's
also
civils
its,
which
is
relatively
high
value-added
activity,
in
contrast
to
a
lot
of
what
you
may
intuitive
or
think
of
is
construction
activity.
So
just
as
we
shouldn't
take
the
construction
sector
to
be
construction
field,
stop
even
within
that
there
are
some
differences
and
some
important
differences
in
productivity.
So
ok.
G
No
thank
you,
I
mean
that's
useful.
It
reminds
us
that
should
always
a
dig
deep
behind
the
headlines
when
it
comes
to
start
so
indicators
I
hundreds
in
terms
of
the
establishment
of
construction,
the
construction,
Scotland,
Innovation
Center,
and
you
know
your
views
in
that
and
whether
that's
you
know
likely
to
help
achieve
change
on
the
ground
in
the
real
world.
G
M
Think
one
of
the
things
and
this
picks
up
actually
on
on
the
point
or
the
question
you
asked
before
about
drivers
of
productivity,
improvement,
I
think
to
two
points.
An
important
one
is
that
when
all
the
data
we
talked
about
so
far
we're
focusing
on
labor
productivity,
you
know
output
per
job
output
per
hour
and
there's
some
evidence
somewhat
dated
now,
by
which
I
mean
probably
10,
12
years
old,
for
the
UK
that,
in
contrast
to
lots
of
other
countries,
we
have
quite
a
low
capital
intensity
of
construction.
M
So
we
use
a
lot
labor,
but
not
much
capital,
in
contrast
to
see
Germany
I
think,
was
an
example
back
then
I'd,
actually,
wouldn't
you
control
for
that?
We
control
for
that
additional
input.
The
construction
sector,
certainly
the
evidence
I
was
looking
out
for
the
U
key
suggests.
It's
not.
You
know
it's
not
out
of
kilter
with
international
peers,
or
certainly
wasn't
at
that
point
and
its
ability
to
take
capital,
labor
and
produce
construction.
But
if
we
have
relatively
higher
labor
inputs,
then
our
productivity
is
going
to
look
worse.
M
There
are
international
competitors,
so
you
said
earlier.
What
could
we
do
in
terms
of
the
data
to
get
a
better
handle
on
what's
happening,
a
proactive
to
the
construction
sector?
One
thing
is
to
actually
go
back
and
say:
okay,
let's
control
for
the
caps
will
be
used
in
production,
so
we've
got
an
idea
door
and
they
actually
hope
productive.
The
sector
as-
and
the
second
thing
again
is
goes
to
this
idea
of
one
of
the
big
challenges
for
productivity,
not
just
in
construction
but
elsewhere,
and
thus
I
evidence
that
actually
construction
is.
M
Well,
the
people
here
before
us,
so
here
one
of
the
problems
in
the
construction
sector
as
management
management
practices.
The
survey
done
by
the
way
next
last
year,
we'll
be
repeating
shortly
puts
management
practice
in
the
construction
sector
below
average
and
among
some
of
the
worst
of
any
sector.
So
I
think
that's
that's
a
big
challenge
as
well.
M
N
She
was
we're,
I
think
we're
both
quite
good
at
discussing
the
the
data
and
the
economics
of
for
this
area,
but
because
we're
not
construction
experts,
I
think
so.
I
would
struggle
in
in
knowing
much
about
the
constructions
called
innovation
sensor,
how
effectively
it's
working
or
any
of
these
bodies,
or
even
that
sort
of
like
major
policy
changes
that
have
been
made
in
in
recent
years,
but
in
terms
of
what
the
committee
should
be
looking
for
and
in
the
future
is
is
sort
of
like.
N
Why
would
these?
Why
were
these
bodies
set
up
and
whose
interests
of
the
really
looking
after
who,
what
specific
problems
aren't
they
trying
to
solve?
So
something
like
the
constructions
called
innovation
center?
It
might
be
quite
good
for
large
companies
in
Scotland,
but
because
so
much
is
SMEs
and
they
don't
have
much
time
for
training
and
they
don't
have
much
time
for
doing
other
other
things
then
we'll
and
they
would
have
much
money.
Will
they
actually
be
able
to
engage
there,
so
will
it
be?
N
G
To
move
on
to
regional
variations,
I'm
always
interesting
that
you
know
lose
Scotland's
are,
and
you
know
small
country,
you
know
who
clock
on
amis
are
very
different
and,
and
you
know
what
to
give
additional
variations
in
the
context
of
innovation.
So,
on
the
paper
produced
by
head
clerks,
we
have
you
know
that
see
local
authority
areas
contributing
moves
to
gve
and
construction.
G
You
know
it's
the
bigger
thora
T's,
you
know
Glasgow
Edinburgh,
say
Flajnik,
so
you
know
probably
not
surprising
when
you
think
of
scale,
and
then
you
see
a
similar
pattern
when
it
talks
about
top
five
local
authorities
for
construction
employment.
You
know,
Glasgow,
there
were
Alec
Soth's
Edinburgh
and
then,
when
you
move
on
to
the
top
five
local
authorities
for
construction
enterprise
activity
and
again
you
see
a
you
know
a
Glasgow,
but
you
also
see
a
Prudential
and
you
also
see
Highland
and
I
just
wondered
if
you
had
any
perceptions
on
how
you
know
smaller.
N
Again,
I
don't
have
a
great
no
knowledge
of
the
rehabilitation
data
in
this
area,
and
but
what
strikes
me
is
that
it
would
be
important
to
break
down
the
data
by
the
different
types
of
construction,
so
housing
is
probably
going
to
be
heavily
related
to
population
size,
as
suggested
I,
think
in
your
papers,
but
on
something
like
infrastructure,
then
Highlands
might
be
doing
very
well
because
of
onshore
Northshore
energy
constructions,
which
could
be
quite
big.
Obviously,
Aberdeen's
got
the
North,
Sea
and
construction
related
to
that.
N
So
again,
the
central
belt
will
be
much
more
about
business
and
industry
construction.
So
I
think
you
need
to
dig
a
bit
deeper
into
the
into
the
figures,
to
then
sort
of
see
that
that's
a
normal
list.
That
area
there
isn't
building
many
houses,
I,
don't
know
Southey
OSHA
or
something
sort
of
thing.
Why
is
that
happening?
Is
that
a
problem
they're
doing
something
else
and
again
perhaps
getting
to
the
areas
where
the
government
might
be
more
interested
and
make
more
of
an
impact
in
terms
of
making
more
public
housing?
N
A
L
Thanks
very
much
convener
M
I
mean
I.
Suppose
you
make
both
made
me
quite
pessimistic
because
we
can't
obviously
measure
and
I
think
very
accurately
it
seems.
So.
How
do
we
kind
of
build
on
that?
But
I'm
not
I,
mean
I.
Think
the
evidence
you've
given
us
so
far
has
been
very
helpful.
I
mean
we
had.
If
you
had
some
of
the
previous
panel
I
mean
one
of
them.
L
For
example,
said
we
should
have
a
mega
project
all
the
time
going
on,
presumably
to
bring
in
em
they
create
that
kind
of
specialist,
a
skills,
jobs
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
I
mean
suppose.
One
of
my
questions
is
you
know:
should
we
be
putting
money
into
construction?
Is
that
having
definitely
a
positive
impact
on
the
economy?
L
We've
always
been
told
that
we
build
a
new
house.
Then
it's
it
helps
people
out
of
fuel
poverty.
It
helps
them
be
healthier.
It
helps
the
kids
study
because
I've
got
more
space.
All
of
these
positives.
On
the
other
hand,
if
we
put
money
into
construction,
does
it
all
go
to
men
and
because
there's
a
few
women
in
the
sector
do
they
all
lose
out
and
the
gender
pay
gap
gets
worse,
em
I
mean.
Can
you
help
me
around
any
of
that
area
or,
or
is
it
just
so
uncertain
that
we
can't
tell.
M
I
guess
one
of
the
things
I
tried
to
do
and
response
to
tangelo
Constance
pick
up
in
the
point
to
jackie
was
you
know
very
careful
about
you
know
the
big
picture,
trends
and
data?
Certainly
over
you
know,
looking
back
2
3
4
5
years
ago,
probably
reasonably
reliable.
The
shorter
term
certainly
GDP,
that
doesn't
issue
which
is
being
addressed
so
I,
don't
think
you
should
take
the
the
impression
we
that
we
can
know
anything
or
rely
on
anything
in
the
data,
because
the
data
are
inherently
problematic,
I.
M
Think
it's
more
a
case
of
certainly
looking
at
the
big
picture
trends
being
a
weird
off,
what's
been
captured
to
pack
up
Angela
Constance
point
at
the
end
about
employment
locally,
we
do
have
an
issue
about
measuring
employment
at
a
more
local
level,
because
the
confidence
intervals
around
saavy
estimates
get
bigger.
Know
that
maybe
you
know
something
we
should
be
remained
when
we
think
about
that.
Just
as
to
pick
up
the
gender
pay
gap
issue,
ash
is
probably
some
of
the
base
data.
M
We
have
on
sorry
beast
theater
narrowness,
but
even
then
it's
not
that
inherently
unreliable.
It's
just
that.
There's
a
confidence
interval
around
about
it.
You
know
and
that's
inherent
with
any
cancer
Fino.
We
can
do
things
to
improve
that,
but
actually
probably
longer
term
the
direction
travel
around
access
to
the
theater
and
turnover
or
HMRC
data
on
earnings
will
help
do
a
lot
of
that
and
provide
to
us
more
reliable
indicators
at
a
more
local
level,
see
or
provide
more
reliable
estimates
or
of
the
gender
pay
gap.
I.
L
Get
that
point
that
that's
right,
we
there's
a
lot
of
improvement
out
there
needing
to
be
done.
Unfortunately,
I
mean
we
as
a
parliament
are
having
to
decide
today.
How
do
we
spend
next
year's
budget?
Do
we
put
it
into
construction
projects,
or
do
we
have
more
nurses
or
more
social
workers
and
we're
having
to
get
young
people
to
encourage
them
into
the
construction
sector?
Do
we
encourage
them
into
nursing?
L
M
I
mean
you:
can
you
can
look
in
Joe
and
I
can?
Can
both
look
and
see?
Okay,
the
multiplier
effects
of
expansion
and
the
construction
of
data
as
whatever
it
is?
If
you
spend
that
and
a
different
sector,
here's
the
expected
multiplier
effect
in
the
economy,
I
guess
the
broader
issue
would
be.
One
of
you
know-
and
this
goes
back
to
the
question
about
the
new
Institute-
is:
what
is
it
supposed
to
achieve?
M
What
the
aims
you
know,
because
the
aims
aren't
just
because
boosting
GDP
and
said
it
will
have
a
whole
variety
of
of
aims.
And
the
question,
then,
is:
how
do
you
design
an
evaluation
process
that
allows
you
to
conclude
whether
or
not
it
did
that
and
that's
something
that
I
think
it's
gotten?
We
are
not
very
good
at
doing.
Are.
M
No,
no
inherently,
if
you've
got
the
data
or
if
you
design
the
evaluation
in
such
a
way
that
you
can
look
at
the
effect
that
it's
had
potentially
on
individual
contracts
or
individual
forms.
To
get
some
idea,
I
mean
if
you
have
our,
have
activity
being
supported
where
you
know
it's
heavily
dominated
by
male
employment.
You
know
no
one's
gonna
be
surprised
to
see
that
you
know
the
employment
supported
and
if
you
run
this
through
anything
sadly
cannot
model
would
replicate
those
sorts
of
gender
differences.
M
No,
if,
instead
you
take
the
view
we
are
going
to
fund
new
female
apprenticeships
and
construction.
Well,
you
know
if
the
criteria
is
you've
got
to
be
female
in
order
to
apply
for
that,
then
that's
going
to
boost
female
employment
in
the
construction
sector.
It's
at
what
level
you
want
to
look
at
this.
For
me,
I
mean.
N
I
mean
I
think
if
you
take
the
issue,
for
example,
that
you
brought
up
of
the
like
having
a
mega
project
all
the
time
I
mean
there
are
some
merits
in
that
in
that,
if
you
have
a
mega
project,
it
will
probably
have
big
companies
involved.
There's
a
good
chance
there
wouldn't
be.
It
would
be
over
a
lot
of
overseas
involvement
and
that
can
improve
productivity,
not
just
on
that
project,
but
for
all
the
other
suppliers
within
Scotland,
so
that
can
have
a
long-term
positive
impacts
as
well
as
I
mean.
N
Presumably,
it's
got
to
be
a
good
mega
project
that
will
have
a
long-term
positive
impact
on
the
Scottish
economy.
Not
you
know,
building
a
bridge
to
nowhere,
which
is
it
might
sound
silly,
but
you
know
that
a
lots
of
countries
do
it,
but
then,
if
you
did
something
like
that,
you
would
find
short-term
complaints
of
like
well
there's
not
many
Scottish
people
involved
in
this.
N
These
guys
companies,
because
it's
on
the
cutting
edge,
which
is
where
you
get
your
innovation
and
your
productivity
from,
and
we
can't
see
yet
the
long
term
productivity
benefits
that
will
that
will
ripple
through
the
wider
economy
or
we
can
see,
is
that
it's
not
many
Scottish
companies
involved.
On
the
other
hand,
you
say
a
plane
spends
construction.
Is
that
good
for
Scotland?
N
It
is
good
for
Scotland
at
the
minute
in
terms
of
a
lot
of
those
companies,
a
lot
of
the
construction
sector
is
Scottish
based
because
there's
so
many
small
medium-sized
companies,
so
that's
good
in
the
short
term,
but
it's
doing
you
much
good
in
the
long
term,
because
these
are
companies
are
not
very
productive.
So
all
these
things
have
to
be.
These
things
have
to
be
bounced
up
in
terms
of
where
do
you
want
to
go,
and
then
there's
some
other
things
like?
N
Do
you
want
to
pick
certain
areas
that
Scotland
is
well
placed
in
and
could
be
perhaps
build
up
a
better,
better
knowledge
base
and
sexual
specialization,
for
example,
good
in
construction,
which
is
a
faster
growing
year
than
most
others
or
so
pre-construction?
Where
you
build
something
somewhere
and
then
just
move
it
at
the
end
to
to
walk,
which
I
think
is
quite
big
in
certain
continental
Country
Joe.
Yes,.
L
I
mean
on
that
point:
I
mean
I'm,
good
I'm
gonna
run
a
time
in
a
minute
so
but
on.
If
I
can
pressure
in
that
point
because
the
previous
panel
again
we
get
quite
you
know,
I'm
just
clearly
in
practice
of
a
wide
view
on
that.
As
to
whether
do
you
build
off-site
you
build
on
site
all
the
SKA
thing,
I
mean
from
your
point
of
view,
is
of
an
economic
point
of
view.
Does
it
make
any
difference,
or
does
that
just
imply?
That's
the
kind
of
more
productive
way
to
do
it
from.
N
N
If
you
want
to
get
involved
and
and
the
Scottish
construction
as
a
whole
wants
to
get
into
the
areas
that
are
faster
growing
rather
than
the
ones
that
reduce
you
not
happening
so
much,
then
that's
where
the
that's
where
they
should
be
more
focused,
and
perhaps
you
can
help
and
not
by
having
training
programs
and
whatever
planning
the
permission
ease
so
that
these
things
can
come
through
so
again,
there's
different
ways
of
looking
at
these.
But
to
me
those
are
the
growth
industries.
K
N
Those
houses
can
be
built,
then
they're,
you
know
they
can
be
met
because,
if
they're
not
built
constructed
by
Scottish
firms,
then
somebody
else
will
come
in
and
do
or
a
UK
firm
will
come,
but
the
conditions
that
must
be
met
are
that
people
want
to
buy
the
houses
so
their
their
incomes,
that
earnings
are
sufficient,
their
India.
The
planning
permission
is
available
that
they
can
build
these
houses
relatively
easy
and
that
they're
going
to
get
a
reasonable
profit
off
from
something.
N
Those
are
the
more
important
elements
about
meeting
a
goal
like
that,
especially
on
and
the
private
side,
and
the
public
side
is
slightly
different.
That
was
obviously
the
budget
concerns
and,
as
the
budget
is,
is
tight
now
and
it's
likely
to
continue
to
be
tight,
then
that
picks
to
focus
more
on
to
some
sort
of
public-private
partnership,
which
is
what
would
you
like
to
see
rat-infested
area
difficult
area
to
is
it's?
It's
had
its
problems,
shall
we
say
in
the
past
and
it's
still
having
its
problems.
N
So
it's
a
matter
of
how
do
you
best
get
the
tune?
I
think
we've
really
sorted
out
to
work
together
in
these
areas
so
that
the
funding
pressure
is
taken
off
the
public
side,
but
the
private
sector
sector
produces
what
you
want
under
high
enough
quality,
probably
isn't
a
particularly
useful
answer
in
the
sense
of
what
you
were
hoping
to
get
but
I
think
as
I
say
in
the
the
basics
of
are
those
two
things
of
like
it's,
not
about
the
ability
of
the
construction
sector
to
do
it.
N
K
Interesting
to
get
your
your
comments,
the
previous
panel
actually
quite
alarmed
me
in
some
way
by
saying
that
it
wouldn't
be
possible
and
they
seem
to
be
saying
that
it
was
because
of
land
banking
that
the
development
companies.
You
know,
the
the
banks,
all
that
land
and
there
was
a
there-
was
a
pipeline,
and
you
know
it
would
not
achieve
what
the
Scottish
government
was
looking
for.
I
mean.
N
That
goes
back
to
my
point
of
them,
other
things
being
in
place,
so
one
is
people
are
earnings
are
enough
that
they
were
looking
to
buy
a
new
house.
The
other
is
that
the
planning
permissions
and
things
like
that
are
oven
of
in
a
position
where
they're
allowing
the
houses
to
be
built
because
the
land
bank
comes
up
because
we
don't
want
to
build
there.
N
You
might
want
us
to
build
it,
but
we
don't
want
to
build
there,
but
we'll
build
there,
and
but
we
won't
build
there
until
we're
happy
that
we
can
get
the
right
price
for
it.
So
we're
going
to
learn,
bank
and-
and
you
know,
steel
me-
that's
that's
a
different
condition.
The
houses
or
the
roads
or
the
hospitals
could
always
be
built
because
the
the
capacity
of
the
industry
is
always
there.
It's
a
different
thing
from
saying
you
know:
could
we
feed
ourselves
through
just
auto
and
agriculture?
N
K
You
actually
believe
that
the
capacity
is
there
I
mean
again
with
the
previous
panel,
we're
hearing
about
shortages
of
the
workers
in
the
industry
and
the
issues
coming
from
bricks
at
lower
rest
of
it
in
terms
of
the
number
of
workers
that
are
available,
and
you
know
aging
popular
population
within
the
industry,
and
that
perhaps
the
capacity
might
not
be
there.
There.
N
N
They
just
say
we
want
this
to
be
built
and
it's
like
yeah,
but
they
don't
want
to
build
them
there
or
at
that
price
or
half
as
many
social
housing
within
it.
So
I
think
that's
the
issue.
Rather
than
could
we
build
them?
Yes,
we
could
build
them,
but
not
the
way
that
you
want
us
to
do
them.
So
so,
there's
a
good
chance
that
that
that
won't
be
met,
but
not
for
the
not
for
the
reasons
of
capacity.
Briggs
aside,
I
suspect.
M
N
M
Only
thing
I
mean
there
are
a
whole
range
of
issues
here
and
you
know
the
Camaro
well,
we
had
all
of
them
and
around
the
housing
market
and
land
more
generally,
but
there's
a
period
of
unprecedented
Lee
law,
unemployment,
youth
unemployment,
songs
by
persons
across
the
UK
and
sell
across
Europe,
pretty
low.
So
I
think
there
is
a
question
for
the
sector
as
to
whether
or
not
they
are
experiencing
recruitment
difficulties
or
if
they
fear
they
would
fear
recruitment
difficulties
if
they
saw
substantial
increase
in
demand.
M
Alongside
that,
though,
you
know
a
month
doesn't
go
by
before
we
see
a
construction,
foreman
Scotland
in
trouble
and
to
the
extent
that
that
is
reflecting
workers
being
released
back
into
the
labour
market
like
this
may
be
less
of
an
issue.
But
it's
an
issue
for
me
for
the
sector
to
get
their
experience.
What.
K
N
K
N
Evidence
that
this
banks
are
less
willing
to
to
lend
didn't
it
to
the
construction
sector,
the
thought
being
that
it's
not
as
reliable
liquid,
because
the
the
sector
is
more
prone
to
boom
and
bust.
It's
not
as
safe
about
lending
betters
and
there's
other
areas
if
that
I
mean
I
again
outside
my
area
of
expertise.
But
if
that
is
the
case
and
I
say,
it
seems
to
be
a
bit
of
evidence
of
that
is
the
case,
then,
is
this
somewhere
where
the
Scottish
investment
bank
could
could
have
a
role?
N
Does
it
see
itself
for
something
a
role
in
this
area,
or
maybe
it's
too
specialized?
And
it's
for
too
many
small
medium-sized
companies?
Again,
the
size
of
company
is
important
here
and
there
should
be
a
different
type
of
of
public
sector,
helping
you
know,
banker
or
financial
assistance
area,
or
it
could
just
be
that
again
with
a
lot
of
small
and
medium-sized
companies
that
they
don't
have
the
financial
expertise
within
them
to
know
what
the
options
are
out
there,
whether
it's
government
grants
or
to
deal
with
a
bank
or
whatever,
so
that
they
actually.
J
Mmm-Hmm
convener
question
about
the
historically
the
role
of
the
public
sector
and
the
private
sector
and
construction.
Historically,
the
public
sector
led
in
building
houses
and
roads
and
railways
and
energy
infrastructure
over
the
last
40
years.
That's
one
quite
dramatically,
so
the
private
sector
is
now
more
involved
and
not
so
much
the
railways
know,
but
so
many
energy
and
housing
etc.
What
impact
generally
speaking
economically
does
that
have
and
as
there
are
an
optimal
balance
when
one's
talking
about
projects
that
are
fundamentally
about
assets
with
very
long
lifespans.
N
If
you
look
back
at
home
money,
the
government
spent
money
see
in
the
21st
century
versus
the
first
half
of
the
20th
century
or
maybe
sort
of
post
for
first
world
war,
then
the
shares
might
not
be
that
different
little
bit
higher
now
than
they
were
there.
But
what
they're
spending
them
on
is
massively
different.
I
mean
that
what
we
spent
on
even
education,
health
and
such
things
like
that
versus
defense
infrastructure
and
things
like
that
is,
is
and
so
part
of
the
reason
for
the
squeeze
on
the
public
sector
in
some
of
those
areas.
N
You're
talking
about
is
because
they've
had
to
spend
what
they
have
decided
to
spend
much
more
money
on
health
and
education,
which
is
politically
popular,
I,
guess
if
they
wouldn't
be
doing.
But
it
means
that
the
much
less
is
available
for
that
and
switches
wide,
more
well
I
guess.
Public
housing
has
been
less
money
invested
in
that,
but
also
this
way
to
try
and
find
a
better
way
to
get
the
public's
the
private
sector
more
involved
in
the
area
that
used
to
be
the
public
sector.
N
But
in
historical
terms,
I
guess
we're
still
in
quite
early
days
for
that,
so
we're
still
scrambling
around
to
find
ways
that,
where
the
schools
that
are
bill
doesn't
cost
150
pounds
to
change
a
light
bulb
and
the
tailing
doesn't
fall
off
after
a
couple
years
and
it's
nobody's
fault:
oh
the
curtains
gone
bust
and
you
can't
have
the
money
back.
So
I
think
it's
still.
You
know
in
a
way
of
we
don't
have
the
money
anymore.
N
To
do
that
unless
you
decide
to
increase
taxes
but
based
on
the
realpolitik,
it
might
not
be
your
opinion
or
my
opinion,
anybody
else's
opinion,
but
based
on
the
route
policy,
that
if
you
go
into
an
election,
saying
I'm
going
to
increase
taxes,
income
tax
by
twenty
P,
a
twenty
P,
then
I'm
going
to
lose
the
election.
If
that
is
the
case,
then
there's
not
that
money
isn't
going
to
become
available
again
to
spend
on
infrastructure
and
on
public
housing.
So
how
do
you
solve
the
problem
of
getting
enough
of
it?
N
J
Some
of
some
of
this
is
a
minister
coming.
My
daughter
went
to
high
school,
it
was
a
PPI
school.
It's
design.
Life
is
40
years.
She
came
from
a
primary
school
that
was
just
celebrated,
as
125th
anniversary
will
last
another
125
years
with
some
maintenance
and
they
putting
a
lift
on
the
outside
building.
Her
aunt
improve
accessibility,
so
you're,
basically
saying
that
these
are
political
choices
that
people
want
short
term
rewards
for
their
electoral
choices,
as
opposed
to
the
more
long-term
view
that
perhaps
was
taken
in
the
past
or
inevitably
was
taken
in
the
past.
N
Think
there's
a
I
think
there's
also
the
issue
of
maybe
not
so
much
primary
schools,
but
certainly
secondary
schools.
The
part
of
the
reason
to
tear
all
off
and
down
is
because
they're
just
not
functional,
and
you
know
the
the
design
and
architecture
has
moved
on
so
that
there
are
ways
of
stopping
bullying
and
and
getting
flow
better
around
the
thing
that
they
can't
do
them
in
the
old
one.
So
they
have
to
rebuild
them
and
I
think
we
know
build
almost
built-in
and
obsolescence
to
them,
not
quite
as
bad
as
an
apple
phone.
N
But
along
the
lines
of
you
know
the
way
things
are
going
and
you
know
we're
going
to
need
a
different,
probably
a
different
style
of
school
in
another
20
30
40
years
anyway,
so
know
don't
spend
too
much
on
it,
because
it's
gonna
get
ripped
down
in
in
40
years,
which
is
a
valid
way
of
doing
it.
But
it's
then
so
light
so
I
will
make
sure
the
good
schools
good
enough
in
the
30
years.
It
does
exist,
even
if
we
do
know
that
in
because
I
mean
for
30
years
ago.
N
What
would
you
imagine
it
would
be
in
a
school
versus
for
is
in
a
school
I
mean
when
I
went
to
school?
Probably
wasn't
that
different
from
one
from
when
my
dad
went
to
school,
but
but
from
when
I
went
to
school
to
when
kids
no
good
at
school
entirely
different
setups
and
they
need
a
different
structure
to
them.
So
I
can
understand
that,
but
it
does
make
it
extremely
challenging
then,
to
decide
what
is
the
best
way
to
to
do
these
things?
I
could
apply
that
to
anything.
You
know,
airports,
road
systems.
M
The
universities
struggle
with
Israel
university
campuses
struggle
with
Israel
is
exactly
this.
Assuming
we've
diversified
you
bastard
glass
cool
lots
of
redevelopment
taking
place
there
just
to
meet
all
buildings
fit
for
purpose
for
more
than
shins
I.
Don't
know
what
the
design
life
of
this
building,
as,
for
instance,
I,
wouldn't
push
that
way.
Brother,
but
but
again
its
face.
Some
more
based
on
my
point,
I,
don't
necessarily
think
that's
tied
to
who
delivers
the
project
so
much
as
what
the
Commission
for
the
project
is
and
how
much
people
want
spend
to
do
it.
Yes,.
J
E
J
N
Then
you
just
they're
all
chestnuts
of
you
know,
workforce
on
the
on
the
positive
side,
not
possible
and
put
it
in
terms
of
the
positive
side
of
not
being
pressures
in
the
construction
industry.
They're
not
having
as
many
my
grace
in
a
net
migration
into
Scotland
will
mean
there
will
be
less
pressure
on
public
sector
and
new
housing
and
on
expanding
infrastructure
for
housing.
Whether
you
see
that
as
a
positive,
a
short
term
positive,
perhaps
but
in
the
long
term
it's
not
necessarily
good
for
Scotland
but
other
than
I.
Think
there's
just
the.
N
Although
I
did
read
somewhere
that
the
in
terms
of
the
number
of
migrant
workers
in
the
construction
industry,
it
was
almost
all
London
that
was
hugely
dependent
on
Eastern
European
workers,
but
outside
that
there
wasn't.
The
the
number
of
migrants
in
the
construction
industry
wasn't
not
different
from
in
other
areas.
I've
only
read
that
one
says
I'm
not
steeped
in
this
area,
but
that
would
be
an
interesting
thing
to
see
if
that,
if
that
was
true,
and
then
you
know
the
old,
the
other
thing
to
that
is
well.
N
If,
depending
what
that
the
final
settlement
is,
can
we
get
these
workers
from
other
places?
So
you
know
a
lot
of
people
from
say
the
Indian
subcontinent
or
in
Qatar,
or
places
like
that.
I.
Imagine
that
coming
and
working
here
is
slightly
nicer
than
just
arriving
in
Qatar
and
waving
goodbye
to
your
passport
for
a
while
and.
J
N
My
understanding
is
that
the
what
is
being
taught
is
trying
to
be
voted
through
at
the
minute
is
just
like
a
holding
clause,
and
there
is
nothing
in
it
about
what
the
future
economic
arrangements
will
be.
That
is
all
meeting.
It
was
very
dispiriting,
but
I
was
all
to
be
still
negotiated.
It's
like
you
know
so,
yes,
I
mean
most
of
it
is
still
still
come.
But
then
what
can
you
pick
from
that?
M
One
thing:
yesterday,
one
of
the
kind
of
leading
indicators
to
the
construction
sector
was
published
for
Yuki
white
fat,
maybe
GB,
and
it's
registering
its
weakest
outlook
for
10
11
months.
I.
Think
there's
there's
a
broader
issue
for
the
last
couple
of
years
of
bo
uncertainty,
meaning
that
people
are
can
even
wait
and
see
mode
for
for
some
of
these
reasons
that
Jon
touched
on,
but
I
think
we're
now.
You
know.
M
I
saw
something
this
morning,
which
I
feel
appreciated,
which
you
know
some
of
the
lead
times
for
exports
are
more
than
six
weeks,
so
people
are
now
having
to
hold
off
on
stuff
that
they
would
be
covering
in
six
seven
eight
weeks
because
they
simply
don't
know
what
customs
arrangements
are
gonna
face.
So
I
think
we're
getting
to
the
point
now
I
mean
if
you
were
starting
a
construction
project
today
and
you've
got
inputs
coming
in
from
Europe
or
elsewhere.
They're
gonna
arrive
and
eight
nine
ten
weeks.
You
know
we've
got
order
them
now.
J
M
Well,
the
situation
as
both
John
a
Sabra
naught
experts
in
the
construction
sector
as
I
think
the
committee
and
all
but
wanted
to
illustrate
the
broader
point
about
getting
close
to
that
cutoff
date
means
that
the
leap
times
for
I
mean
it's
not
difficult
to
imagine
routes
that
fall
into
that
category.
Well,.
A
I,
don't
want
to
stress
test
the
the
life
expectancy
of
this
building
because
I
think
brexit,
something
we
could
all
discuss
for
quite
a
length
of
time
and
I
think
we've
possibly
slightly
overrun
the
time
that
the
two
of
you
expected
be
with
us.
So
thank
you
very
much
for
coming
in
and
we'll
conclude
this
session
there
and
I'll
suspend
and
when
we
to
private
session.
Thank
you
very
much.