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A
Good
morning
and
welcome
to
the
35th
meeting
of
the
economy,
energy
and
Fair
Work
committee
for
2019
masks
all
those
in
the
public
gallery
to
turn
off
or
to
silent
any
electrical
devices.
We
have
apologies
this
morning
from
committee
members,
Jackie,
Bailey
and
Dean
Lockhart,
and
we
have
Tom
Mason
as
a
substitute
for
Dean
Lockhart.
The
first
item
on
the
agenda
is
a
decision
on
taking
business
in
private,
which
is
to
take
items
three
and
four
in
private.
As
the
committee
agreed.
B
A
You
we
now
turn
to
item
2
in
our
agenda,
which
is
the
issue
of
bank
closures.
So
for
our
first
panel,
we
have
today
going
from
my
left
to
right,
first
of
all,
dr.
Pete
Chima
OBE,
who
is
the
chief
executive
of
the
Scottish
grocers
Federation
Andrew
Kragen,
head
of
payments
policy,
British
Retail,
Consortium,
Barry,
McCulloch
senior
policy,
advisor
of
the
Federation
of
small
businesses
and
Paul
McBain,
who
is
the
non-executive
director
of
the
National
Federation
of
sub
postmasters?
So
welcome
to
all
four
of
you
this
morning.
A
C
There
are
obvious
impacts
that
ATM
closures,
particular
free
to
use
idioms
have
on
local
businesses,
and
we
have
both
them
statistic
or
data
and
anecdotal
evidence
which
suggests
that
it
can
be
to
reduce
ills
and
also
lead
to
reduce
fall.
This
is
particularly
an
issue
and
pure
communities,
and
particularly
an
issue
in
rural
communities
where
cash
still
remains
a
very
popular
payment
method
for
a
consumer.
C
That
there
has,
and
during
summer
link
made
a
very
welcome
announcement
to
try
to
make
sure
that
we
have
free
to
use
ATMs
and
every
High
Street
across
and
the
UK
I.
Think.
My
one
note
of
caution
with
with
that
or
skepticism
perhaps,
is
that
the
Dead
Sea
that
the
interchange
fee
and
the
reduction
in
it
would
not
lead
to
free
to
use
ATM
closures.
And
it
did
so
hopeful
that
that
the
intention
is
its
own,
but
slightly
we'd
rather
have
that
pansies
all.
D
These
operators
have
no
choice
to
either
to
you
know
just
to
accept
having
a
surcharge
whereby
the
the
bigger
operators
like
likes
of
Tesco
Sainsbury's
Morrison's,
as
the
you
know,
can
dictate
the
policies
to
to
these
operators
where,
because
they've
got
a
higher
footfall,
but
predominantly
we're
in
areas
where
you
know
we're
so
integral
part
of
communities
and
rural
communities.
That
is
imperative.
This
changes.
A
D
I
wish
the
ATM
providers
I
think
that's
one
for
them,
because
it's
it's
a
charge
that
they
install
not
something
that
the
retailer
dictates.
It's
not
retailers
don't
want
to
surcharge.
Retailers
want
free
to
use
ATMs
and
we're
getting
at
least
four
or
five
complaints
every
single
week
of
people
telling
us
this
is
what's
being
dictated
to.
E
Yeah,
thank
you.
Jeff
I
think
picnic
picking
up
on
that.
It's
worthwhile
pointing
out
that
the
the
payment
systems
regulator
is
currently
looking
at,
and
obviously
not
here
to
speak
for
the
PSR
but
I
I'm,
aware
of
of
this
and
submitted
for
the
BRC
a
response
to
their
call
for
evidence.
But
the
PSR
are
looking
at
the
structure
of
interchange
that
lies
behind
or
that
the
link,
interchange
fees
that
lie
behind
the
operation
of
ATMs,
with
a
view
to
changing
changing
that
structure.
E
Now,
of
course,
the
it's
the
level
of
of
ATM
interchange
that
has
led
to
a
decline
in
a
significant
decline
of
ATM
provision
across
the
country.
We've
seen
that
dip
from
from
a
high
of
just
over
seventy
thousand
ATMs
across
the
country
to
around
65,000
ATM.
So
a
closure
of
5,000
ATMs
with
consecutive,
with
the
announcement
from
link
of
the
implementation
of
consecutive
cuts
to
link
interchange
fees
and
that
that
obviously
has.
E
Has
issues
for
the
for
the
viability
of
ATMs
across
the
country?
So,
whereas
we've
seen
some
clothes,
there's
also
a
significant
issue
of
social
social
justice,
I
would
say
as
well
as
an
issue
of
of
geography.
So
we
have
a
number
of
ATMs
that
protected
across
the
country
because
of
because
they're
further
than
a
kilometer
away,
or
so
it's
a
connoisseur
away
from
another
way
of
accessing
cash,
but
actually,
where
we've
seen
some
of
those
ATMs
move
to
pay
to
use.
E
A
A
E
Hand
and
I-
don't
I,
don't
have
information
on
in
terms
of
where
the
where
the
ATMs
are
place.
But
I
do
that.
My
understanding
is
what
one
of
the
things
that
the
PS
are
looking
to
do
with
the
restructure
of
this
of
the
interchange
fee
is
to
provide
a
financial
incentive
for
the
provision
of
ATMs
in
geographically
isolated
areas,
as
well
as
the
provisions
that
are
already
there
for
the
one
kilometer
protection
that
we've
already.
A
D
Want
to
make
several
points
here
that
you
know
some
retailers
are
able
to
buy
out
the
remaining
life
of
the
ATM,
but
they've
got
to
pay
a
significant
fee
to
buy
at
their
contracts.
One
of
our
members
refused
to
go
sign
a
contract
to
switch
from
a
free-to-use
ATM
to
a
chargeable
machine,
but
the
ATM
provider
was
still
able
to
proceed
anyway,
so
they
have
often
gotten
on
no
choice,
but
one
thing
I
do
want
to
make
apparent
to
yourselves.
D
D
That's
not
what's
happening
in
the
real
world.
You
know
if
there
was
a
natural
10%
reduction
in
Commission.
Most
of
the
retailers.
Wouldn't
we
mind
having
that,
but
that's
not
what's
happening.
What's
happening
is
you
know,
they've
got
those
three
choices
which
I've
mentioned
before
you
know.
They're
commissioned
he's
taken
away
altogether.
You
know
if
there
was
a
10%
reduction.
D
You
know,
along
with
the
within
Inc
interchange
fee,
people
wouldn't
mind
that
one
thing
we
also
got
to
remember
is
that
the
the
the
fee
he's
only
paid
on
cash
transactions,
yet
link
pay,
ATM
providers
on
cash
balance
inquiries
as
well,
and
retailers
get
no
fee
on
that.
They
get
no
commission
on
it's
an
unreal
and
unfair
world
out
there
for,
for
the
independent
retailers.
C
Just
returning
to
to
Andrews
point
and
have
a
director
committed
to
the
watch,
research
on
cashless
communities,
which
showed
that
there
has
been
a
ten
percent
reduction
in
the
ATM
network
in
the
last
year
in
Scotland,
which
translates
to
over
550
free
to
use
ATMs
disappearing
from
from
the
country
and
the
arctos
codes
and
which
to
give
it
to
me.
Bebo
may
be
aware,
and
Edinburgh,
ejt
and
Aberdeen.
C
F
Emoticons
I
was
what
he
asked.
Patema
of
BOE
ATMs
were
you've,
discussed
the
options
that
I've
been
given
to
tender
verjuice,
whether
they
accept
a
machine
that
charges
a
fee
or
not.
Do
you
know
whether
it's
a
uniform
policy
by
the
ATM
providers
that
they're
treating
large
supermarket
chains
the
same
as
small
independence
or
as
small
independence?
You
know
what
we
are
being
told
is
a
slight
increase
in
the
number
of
free
to
use
machines.
F
D
Give
you
an
example:
there's
a
retailer
towards
Blackburn
who's
got
who's
been
forced
to
take
on
a
fee,
paying
a
TM
and
yet
20
yards
down.
There's
that
there's
another
and
I
won't
name
the
store,
because
I
think
that's
unfair,
and
then
this
stores
to
either
side
and
they're
both
non-fee
pain,
owned
by
the
same
company
as
as
the
the
convenience
store
retailer.
Well,
what
what
impacted
is
that
having
food
for
it
has
it?
It
has
a
detrimental
effect
up
to
about
20
percent
for
but
I
had
the
rest
of
the
stuff.
D
E
Instead
of
ATMs
are
owned
by
you.
They
also
become
less
viable,
but
I'll
be
the
first
to
admit
that
any
all
data
that
we
receive
at
the
BRT
is
skewed.
In
favor
of
large
retailers,
we
will
have
large
footfall
coming
through
a
as
der
or
a
Morrison's
or
or
a
Sainsbury's
supermarket,
but
the
that
the
footfall
that
might
be
coming
through
a
a
smaller
independent
retailer
in
in
rural
Scotland
is
not
facing
those
same.
Those
same
circumstances
and
I.
E
But
we
will
expect
to
see
some
some
shifts
and
one
of
the
things
I
mentioned
before
around
the
the
change
to
the
structure
of
interchange.
Fees
is
obviously
something
that's
been
looked
at
by
the
PSR,
but
that
is
not
going
to
be
a
silver
bullet
for
this.
For
this
situation,
neither
is
the
revisions
that
the
Bank
of
England
are
considering
for
reviewing
the
the
cash
services
infrastructure.
D
Let's
be
absolutely
honest
about
these
things:
it's
a
smaller
convenience
retailers
that
provide
most
of
the
services
that
the
larger
retailers
don't
want
to
take
on,
such
as
the
post
office
services,
the
paid
payment
services
and
pay
point.
You
know
we're
the
ones
at
the
heart
of
the
communities
we're
the
ones
are
providing
those
services
and
those
services
are
unwanted
by
the
larger
multiples.
G
H
The
post
offices
I'm
going
to
take
a
part
to
play
with
cash.
We
have
11
a
half
thousand
offices
in
the
UK
I
need
free
cash
withdrawals
or
all
post
offices,
but
what
I
would
like
your
BIOS
onto
onto
ATMs?
The
issue
that
has
in
raids
just
now
is
with
regards
to
rates
and
ATMs.
If,
if
we
are
not
peeing,
if
we're
not
getting
a
fee
for
having
an
ATM,
it's
a
cost
to
retail.
In
the
north
of
scholar,
where
I
am
I
got
one
of
my
ATMs
taken
out,
it
wasn't
post
office
one.
H
It
was
no
machine
because
we
stopped
right
away
with
any
commission
rates,
but
I
was
left
with
a
burden
of
peon.
The
rates
now
I
can't
be
seen
to
be
paying
for
a
free
cash
machine.
So
we
got
the
cash
machine
taken
out
since
then,
I
now
have
a
post
office
which
we
can
offer
free
cash
withdrawals.
So
it's
not
plain
sailing
with
regards
to
ETM
to
coming
in
and
going
out
of
what
the
public
see.
H
F
Lot
of
questions
in
terms
of
actually
access
the
cash
review
to
take
place.
March
2019,
the
final
report
came
out
Andrew.
You
said
that
any
solution
has
to
be
government,
the
way
the
government
weighed
but
and
the
report
that
we
wrote.
We
had
a
response
from
the
UK
government
Treasury,
seeing
that
it's
not
government
policy
to
intervene
in
commercial
decisions
such
as
causes
of
bank
branches,
etc.
E
But
I
that
I
I
think
that
question
is
is
spot
on.
It's
not
really
for
it's
for
all
of
us,
I
think
really
across
society.
To
accept
it.
To
ask
these
big
questions
essentially
of
what
is
a?
What
is
a
public
good,
what
constitutes
viable
where
the
thresholds
exist,
for
when
something
is
viable
or
ceases
to
become
viable?
E
Do
we
should
we
be
demanding
more
of
our
banks
if
they're
not
cooperating
or
people
or
businesses
and
vulnerable
communities
are
left
behind
what
action,
mandates
or
directions
to
expect
the
government
or
regulators
to
take
are
they?
Are
they?
Are
the
regulator's,
too
close
to
the
to
the
to
the
organizations
that
they
regulate?
E
Should
we
be
more
forthright
with
the
Bank
of
England,
the
financial
conduct
authority,
the
PS,
our
payment
systems,
regulator
and
the
Treasury,
and
it
seems
to
us
from
the
from
the
perspective
of
the
British
Retail
Consortium,
that
action
in
the
certainly
in
the
in
the
payment
space
which
which
which
I
work
in
action
and
the
in
the
payment
space
it
always
takes
too
long?
It's
always
too
little.
It's
always
too
late.
E
The
impact
has
been
as
the
the
harms
have
have
already
significantly
impacted
the
the
industry,
but
you
know
there
is
no
situation
in
which
the
the
impacts
are
more
damaging
than
in
the
kind
of
situation
that
we're
talking
about
we're
talking
about
vulnerable
communities
because
of
their
size
because
of
their
isolated
locations.
We're
talking
about
the
critical,
a
critical
level
of
economic
viability
being
breached
in
in
in
area
after
area
cache,
deserts
being
left
in
in
certain
parts
of
the
country,
and
it's
it's.
E
It's
crucial,
I
think
that
we
expect
more
urgent
action
from
from
government
in
this,
or
we
expect
the
government
to
be
more
demanding
of
the
regulator's
that
they've
they've
essentially
devolved
these.
These
concerns
to
to
the
to
the
FCA
to
the
PSR,
because
yeah,
certainly
from
our
perspective,
we
get
extremely
frustrated
about
the
about
the
lack
of
action,
but
actually
first
small
independent
retailers,
some
of
whom
we
we
do
represent
within
our
within
our
membership
and
further
for
those
vulnerable
communities.
The
the
impact
of
this
is
is
is
critical.
C
Probably
the
key
point
of
this
session:
well,
do
you
leave
up
to
the
market
or
do
government
intervene
regularly
and
I
think
the?
As
you
mentioned,
you
know
the
UK
government
has
not
shown
the
appetite
or
long
enough
to
to
do
the
latter,
but
I.
Think
the
before
it's
truly
or
possession
remains
somewhat
to
the
committees
that
we
have
to
get
a
grip
of
this
issue.
C
We
need
a
systematic
study
and
to
the
impact
that
both
the
brand
closure
program
and
the
ETM
program
is
having
and
what
impact
it's
having
on
the
Scottish
economy
to
establish
our
basic
banking
provision.
So
what
does
that
basic
banking
provision
mean
within
the
current
economy
but
in
the
future
I
think
we're
proceeding
on
the
basis
the
callousness
will
be
will
be
the
future
and
by
as
the
access
to
cash
of
you,
should
we've
got
a
fifth
of
the
population
which
will
continue
to
use
cash.
C
I
mean
SAT
to
Sweden,
which
is
far
along
the
path
towards
cashless
nesbitt
stole
a
fifth
of
the
population
that
need
access
to
that
cash.
So
I
mean
interview
is
quite
quite
clear
that
you
know
we
have
to
protection
in
place.
I
mean
that
this
is
an
issue
of
financial
exclusion,
not
just
for
our
communities
but
for
local
businesses.
D
I
think
you
know:
we've
got
to
I
want
to
recognize
the
fact
that
they,
the
post
office,
is
one
of
the
most
valuable,
so
services
or
offered
at
a
convenience
store
in
total
23
percent
of
Scottish
C
stores
offer
post
office
services,
so
I
think
it's.
You
know
that
they
should
be
really
remunerated
accordingly
as
well.
Nothing,
that's
as
a
point.
That's
often
overlooked,
but
one
of
the
things
I
do
want
to
talk
about
and
that
we're
all
the
STF
we're
also
looking
at
is
looking
at
a
Scottish
system.
D
I
think
you
know
for
too
long.
You
know:
we've
gone
down
south,
given
evidence,
we've
gone
to
the
PS,
our
meetings,
we're
giving
you
no
evidence
here,
but
we're
not
really
getting
anywhere.
We
know
what
the
banks
are
doing
to
us.
We
know
in
terms
of
loans
for
small
businesses,
you
know
how
restrictive
they
are,
the
covenants
and
and
the
problems
they're,
creating
what
they're
doing
in
order
to
drive
cash
out
of
the
business,
to
make
sure
that
that
you
know
we're
driven
one
way
without
wanting
to
go
that
way.
D
F
H
So
we
are
getting
better.
The
put
their
post
office
have
put
more
money
into
the
end
of
the
process
of
them
and
postmaster,
and
there
is
going
to
be
some
more
money
coming
in
April.
Is
it
enough?
No,
it's
not
enough,
but
for
a
postmaster
with
the
amount
of
business
of
especially
business
banking
coming
through
the
canvas
there
has
to
be
a
change
in
the
the
format's
that
we
have
inserted
when
you
have
a
mean
office
which
has
a
secure
area,
and
it's
not
an
issue.
H
Majority
of
offices
know
in
the
north
of
Scotland
and
locals,
where
it's
less
easy
to
accept
money
in
and
dispose
it
easily
in
Suffolk
easily
and
securely.
So
these
have
been
looked
at
at
the
moment.
Cuz
we've,
it's
probably
been
thrown
on
us
just
as
a
post
office,
just
as
much
as
the
banks
closed
and
we
we
have
to
change
but
to
change.
We
need
time,
but
we
really
don't
have
time.
It's
it's
happening,
though,
for
a
sub
postmaster,
the
biggest
thing
and
it
wouldn't
cost
the
post
office.
Nothing.
H
Obviously,
it's
going
to
cost
the
bank,
something
because
it's
their
business,
that
we
are
doing
if
I
give
you
a
scenario
as
a
as
a
as
a
businessman:
I
pay
my
bank
one
pound
per
hundred
to
debit,
my
cash
to
them
as
a
sub
postmaster.
At
the
moment,
I
get
paid
one
pound
per
thousand
I'm,
not
arguing
with
that.
What
I'm?
H
What
I'm
getting
to
is
I,
never
walk
into
a
Santa
and
air
bank,
because
I
Bank
everything
through
the
post
office,
but
they
still
charge
me
for
who
made
Akasha
I
bank
at
the
post
office
from
them.
If
there
was
some
sort
of
free
banking
for
a
postmaster
or
or
something
better,
you
know
somebody
get
a
discount,
then
that
would
go
a
long
way
to
help
struggling
post
masters.
H
If
I
give
me
again
as
an
example,
I'm
I
born
lame,
but
would
benefit
from
six
thousand
pounds
a
year
with
the
cash
I'm
depositing
through
my
back,
so
it
wouldn't
cost
the
post
office.
But
again
it's
rate
tip.
You
know
it
doesn't
matter
who
you
who
you're
talking
about
is
that
I
can
see
simple
solutions,
but
the
simple
solutions
are
never
normally
the
easy
solutions.
A
Thank
you
so
much.
Thank
you,
I
mean
I.
Suppose
the
question
is
I
mean
I,
know
young
people
who
use
no
cash
at
all
if
80%
of
the
population
just
to
be
at
the
counter
again.
I'm,
not
saying
this
is
my
view
or
the
committee
has
expressed
its
units
previous
report,
which
isn't
necessarily
this
this
way,
but
to
put
the
counter-argument
of
80%
of
the
population
use
not
use
cash,
then
the
difficulty
is
if
a
small
minority
continued
to
use
it,
that
will
have
costs
in
terms
of
provision
of
that
so
I
mean
Andrew.
I
E
It's
clearly
been
a
long-term
trend
that
people
are
using
less
cash
across
the
UK
and
across
the
across
the
Western
world,
but
you,
the
British
Retail
Consortium,
produces
a
an
annual
payment
survey
every
year
which,
which
I
put
together
and
like
this,
that
the
survey
was
published
this
year
on
on
last
year's
statistics
showed
that
we
have
eighty
billion
pounds
worth
of
cash
transactions
in
the
retail
industry
alone.
In
2018,
eight
billion
of
the
20
billion
retail
transactions
that
took
place
in
2018
were
made
in
cash.
That's
almost
40
percent.
E
So
we're
not
talking
about
small
small
numbers
of
people
here
and
the
the
PSL
of
payment
systems.
Regulators
own
research,
shows
that
I
think
31
percent
of
people
in
Scotland
prefer
to
use
cash
than
any
any
other
payment
method,
and
that
is
a
statistic
which
almost
universally
grows
when
you,
when
you
move
out
of
urban
areas
into
into
rural
areas-
and
there
is
also
the
the
issue
of
those
that
those
that
need
to
use
cash
people
choose
to
use
cash
for
a
whole
range
of
reasons.
E
58
percent
of
cash
prefers
choose
to
use
cash
for
budgeting
reasons,
which
is
clearly
something
that
is
a
significant
yes,
a
significant
reason
to
want
to
use
cash
and
should
be
should
be
protected,
but
for
some
people
it
might
be
security
reasons,
but
two
I
think
the
cash
services
which
I
think
is
now
part
of
UK
finance,
show
that
2.2
million
people
are
cash,
dependent
or
use
cash
depend
on
cash
to
make
their
day-to-day
transaction.
So
that
is.
E
That
is
something
that
we
we
definitely
that
definitely
needs
to
be
taken
into
into
consideration
where,
whatever
debate
we
have
about
what
the
future
of
payments
looks
like
for
the
UK
there's,
there's
a
huge
swathe
of
people
that
will
currently
use
cash.
That
will
continue
to
use
cash
for
the
foreseeable
future,
preserving
that
cash
infrastructure
that
lies
behind
that
the
sorry
the
cash
infrastructure
the
lies
behind.
That
is
it's
a
critical
element
of
this
and
an
ATM
provision
and
bank
branches
are
clearly
all
a
part
of
that,
and
the
mechanisms
in
terms
of
interchange
is.
E
Digital
payments,
people
are
choosing
to
use
less
cash
and
so
I.
Don't
think
that
there
is
a
public
education
exercise
to
be
to
be
to
be
done
here
and
the
in
the
virtues
of
using
cash.
If
people
don't
choose
to
use
that,
but
what
we
do
have
is
a
civic
responsibility
across
India,
three
and
government
to
ensure
that,
for
those
that
need
to
use
cash
or
prefer
to
use
cash,
then
the
provision
of
that
infrastructure
is
is
maintained.
D
You
I
think
the
main
points
here
really
is
that
retailers
are
really
responding
to
demands
for
other
payments,
payment
methods
and
other
ways
of
of
paying.
You
know
such
as
contactless
payments,
debit
cards,
for
example,
debit
cards,
92%
of
our
stores
have
debit
cards,
80
percent
of
credit
cards,
82%
of
contactless
payments.
So
we
are
responding
to
that
change,
but
cash
is
still
King.
J
Thank
you
broaden
this
out
a
bit
with
the
on
the
post
office
side.
I've
had
experience
in
my
own
constituency.
Midler
did
not
from
muscle
Barack,
where
Bank
branches
have
closed.
Atm
facilities
have
vanished
in
rural
areas
and
actually
in
some
of
the
more
urban
areas,
and
the
reassurances
we
get
at
the
time
are
that
post
offices
are
there
for
a
backup
and
will
provide
the
the
substitute
facilities.
H
First
and
foremost,
we
we
are
able
to
do
it,
but
when
the
bank
closes,
they
literally
walk
away
from
a
community,
they've,
probably
served
for
20-30
years
without
hearsay,
and
it's
extremely
disappointing.
They
make
no.
They
make
no
matter
of
fact
to
the
one,
durable
and
infirm
and
the
pain
to
come
at
the
post
office,
because
these
are
the
people
that
neither
I
want
the
one
service.
H
The
biggest
thing
with
check
deposits
are
at
the
moment,
because
it
may
change
as
a
pair
and
depositing
a
check
with
the
within
the
post
office
have
to
have
a
check
and
the
lock
which
they
can
get
from
the
post
office,
but,
most
importantly,
they
need
a
pn
n
slip
and
that
is
only
available
from
their
bank.
The
banks
do
not
tell
their
customers
lists;
they
see
you
can
deposit
checks
at
the
post
office,
which
is
true,
but
not
without
peeing
and
slip,
and
they
can
only
get
a
bean
and
slip
from
their
bank.
H
So
that's
an
immediate
harm
that
we
have
when
banks
closed
so
within
within
business
banking,
you
can
deposit
cash
and
a
local
one
that
you
have
talking
about
open
plan
up
to
2,000
pounds
at
a
time
at
the
moment,
so
that
can
that
can
have
a
detrimental
effect
on
businesses
that
maybe
have
four
or
five
thousand
pounds
tobacco
Tang.
The
only
way
they
could
do
that
at
the
post
office
at
the
moment,
an
open
plan-
one
sorry
is
by
coming
three
times,
because
we
can
only
take
two
for
secure
reasons.
Just.
H
The
maximum
we
can
because
of
cost.
No,
no,
it's
because
of
securely.
It's
because
it's
to
get
to
secure
the
money,
so
the
the
drawer
has
a
maximun.
They
can
carry
so
the
post.
Others
are
agreed
used
to
be
one
thousand
pounds,
because
that's
how
much
you
can
have
in
the
draw
at
one
time
it's
being
changed
in
two
thousand
pounds,
but
that
money
must
be
dealt
with
securely
and
normal
combi
units
on
plan
units
have
a
facility
underneath
it
may
be.
H
A
roll
of
cash
they've
put
money
away
safely
or
it
may
be
a
bitty
safe
where
they
just
slide
them
on
the
end,
so
a
better
secure
way
of
doing
it,
but
they
can't
come
back
two
or
three
times
which
is
not
good
for
the
and
for
the
retailer.
But
at
the
moment
that's
a
service
on
a
on
a
mean
office.
They
can.
They
can
bunk,
you
see
up
to
twenty
thousand,
but
more.
If
there's
been
arrangement
we
made
with
the
postmaster
on
the
business
and.
J
H
That
not
tailed
to
that,
because
issues
that
you
can't
have
is,
let's
take
a
Monday.
So
we've
had
you
weekend,
banking
and
they
come
to
the
tail.
Before
so
happens
the
Mondays
everybody
comes
in
for
the
pensions
regardless,
you
know
we
still
have
a
bit
of
a
queue
to
Monday,
unbelievable
I
know
the
way
things
are
going,
but
with
the
business
bank
come
in
and
admit
about
three
days
and
it
takes
forever
the
the
the
business
islets.
H
So
the
onus,
if
I
then
check
that
money
in
see
that
it's
ten
pounds
short,
then
the
onus
is
on
the
the
business
to
give
me
that
tempering
back
so
there
are
to
be
an
agreement,
whether
they're
looking
at
different
ways
of
making
it
quicker.
But
at
the
moment
you
come
and
you
let
me
stand
there
and
wait
for
that
money
to
me
to
be
checked.
There
is
a.
We
do,
have
a
check
at
fort
for
the
notes,
which
is
much
quicker,
but
then
the
other
issue
that
we
have
from
from
a
business
perspective.
H
Most
of
us
it's
for
Jason.
You
know
we
are
now
liable
for
all
forgeries
when
the
Box
shut
the
door
and
walked
away
great
but
to
dealt
with
forgeries,
then
the
banks
themselves,
who
danced
with
them,
know
Bob
McBain
or
the
postmaster,
not
post
office,
not
the
banks,
the
individual.
If
we
pick
up
a
forged
note,
we
are
sent
it
back
and
we
lose
that
money.
H
The
north
in
the
north
of
Scotland,
not
many
in
Glasgow,
that
is
an
office
that
will
have
there
are
105
20s,
something's,
50s,
bang,
a
villain
tape.
I
know
it's
about
Scotland
typo
notes
are
very,
very
and
on
the
gorgeous.
No
I
wouldn't
like
better
figure
on
it,
but
it
is
prevalent,
but
the
issue
is
that
we
are
liable.
H
So,
although
we
check
it
honor
gene
a
bang-bang
under
the
machine
that
we
have
for
security,
there's
a
six-point
transaction,
so
the
Bank
of
England
note,
then
don't
knock
it
back
so
under
Scottish
notes
that
Scotch
tray
is
just
now
only
has
two
Matson
three
and
we
have
to
separate
all
the
notes
to
ensure
that
we
are
doing
it
correctly.
We
don't
separate
the
notes.
You
just
came
them,
then
you're
liable
to
get
forges
in
there.
Why
lot
of
extra
work
so.
H
J
C
Their
I
think
must
have
be
highlighted.
The
banks
continue
to
rely
on
post
offices
as
the
mean
alternatives
when
the
desired
local
communities,
and
will
continue
to
do
so
and
noted
in
a
letter
to
the
committee
from
RBS
they're,
almost
and
implying
that
the
post
office
is
based
with
on
the
branch
because
and
I
quote,
your
provides
longer
opening
hours
than
their
branches
and
weekend
access.
And
now
this
is
the
idea
but
I
think
as
Paul
Pope
mentioned,
and
it's
just
not
panning
out
that
we
in
in
reality
and
it's
not
planning
it.
C
That
way,
because,
however
good
the
post
office
is
or
becomes
it's
no
substitute
for
a
real
resource
bank
branch,
which
has
intensive
knowledge
of
the
local
business
base
and
the
local
economy
and
the
key
pervade
and
basic
banking
services,
but
also
importantly,
businesses
Jase.
You
know
for
that
small
business
to
take
the
next
landing
decision
there
and
that
will
be
very
important
for
theme.
So
I
feel
like
we're
losing
that
that
infrastructure
and
I
think
Paul
again
illustrates
that
they're,
clear,
Parsa,
tee
and
capability
issues
within
the
post
office
network
to
perform
that
task.
C
For
for
business
customers
and
you
I
think
the
equations
about
the
financial
and
support
and
post
offices
and
pervade,
but
I
think
that
there
are
as
longer-term
issues.
You
know
when
the
post
office
promotes
itself
more
aggressively
and
to
business
customers,
you'll,
candy,
coupe
and
I
I'm,
not
quite
sure
that
they
can
and
no
to
see
nothing
of
the
fact.
B
D
Banks
have
been
very,
very
clever
in
deflecting
their
issues
and
problems
on
to
the
post
office,
and
you
know
it's
something
that
has
to
be
recognized
and
one
of
the
very
nice
ways
they've
done.
It
is
by
imposing
maximum
cash
charges
on
retailers
so
gone
away.
Are
those
fixed
charges
gone
away,
those
20
pence
per
400
pounds
and
now
to
deposit
every
hundred
pounds?
You've
got
to
pay
sixty
nine
pence?
J
D
They're
never
going
to
be
able
to
provide
all
the
facilities
because
different
people
bank,
with
different
banks,
and
they
have
different
relationships
within
those
banks.
They
can
only
provide
the
cash
in
cash
out
the
other
services.
They
want,
whether
it's
a
credit
card,
whether
they
want
overdraft
facilities,
whether
they
won't
know
issues
they
still
got
to
go
back
to
their
bank
and
how
they
going
to
do
that.
Where
they're
gonna
go,
who
they're
going
to
talk
to?
D
What
kind
of
relationship
do
they
have
with
with
somebody
down
in
Manchester,
though
they
they
don't
know
anything
about
their
own
business,
and
this
is
a
clever
way
of
just
deflecting
something
onto
the
post
office.
The
post
office
is
not
a
substitute
for
banks
and
that's
another
reason
why
I
will
still
ask
the
committee
to
can
start
considering
a
Scottish
system.
H
To
pick
up
a
couple
of
things
on
pizza,
I
think
we
can
do
the
business
I
think
that
the
post
office
are
capable
of
doing
the
banking
for
small
businesses.
We're
not
Bank
I've,
never
said
we
well.
We
are
not
a
bank
but
there's
other
things
that
we
could
do
to
help
facilitate
when
the
bank
closes
simple
things
like
doing
accept
in
there
there
around
bells
for
credit
cards.
You
know
they
have
to
post
easiest
now,
because
the
bank
is
probably
a
sec
I
provided
of
another
somebody's
credit
card.
H
It's
not
as
simple
as
being
a
bi,
it's
called
the
credit
card,
it's
probably
a
bank,
it's
called
facilitated
by
a
B
and
C.
So
it's
not,
it
could
be
done
and
some
what
to
do-
it's
just
a
barcode
transaction.
Other
things
that
we
should
we
should
and
could
be
able
to
do
is,
is
transfer
funds
from
a
bank
account
to
another.
H
One
other
thing
would
be
with
the
guys
in
the
north
of
Scotland.
When
you've
got
the
foreign
the
foreign
cards
coming
to
withdraw
cash,
they
can
do
an
e
TM.
They
can
do
a
post
of
us.
That's
an
angle
that
we
are
looking
to
be
able
to
provide
a
cash
withdraw
from
a
post
of
us
with,
say
a
Deutsche
Bank
card
at
the
moment.
That's
not
available,
so
that
it's
things
that
we
and
the
post
of
us
we
as
postmasters,
feel
that
can
be
available,
but
it.
H
Couldn't
answer
that,
to
be
honest,
there's
a
there's,
an
esteemed
colleague
behind
me
that
probably
will
later
on
I
we
just
take
out,
we
take
the
money
in
and
it
goes
goes.
Are
we
every
every
week
and
that's
good
the
volume
my
volume
has
traveled
in
five
years
and
I'm
talking
six
figures
treble
and
that
money
has
got
to
be
checked
and
sent
away.
We
can't
do
what
a
small
business
requires
us
off.
We
cannot
do
its
service,
a
bank
account
for.
J
The
for
the
focus
on
hearing
here
is
all
about
cash
in
actual
fact,
and
the
handling
of
cash
in
the
disposal
of
cash
yeah,
which
brings
us
back,
of
course,
to
the
where
we
started
with
all
this.
Is
it
just
really
cash?
That
is
the
critical
thing
for
retailers
now
understand
what
people
are
saying
that
about
the
about
the
credit
facility
is
not
what
estimate
we
dealing
with
the
bank,
but
it's
the
critical
factor
for
retails
it
does
it
retails.
Does
it
come
back
to
handling
cash.
D
Ashin
ATMs
it's
as
basically
yeah
it's
as
basic
as
that,
but
I
would
echo
one
other
thing
and
I
think
Paul
probably
will
would
have
mentioned
this
and
he
may
have
forgotten
about
it.
We've
got
to
make
the
post
offices
more
viable.
We've
got
to
give
them
the
income
to
deal
with
with
the
extra
burden
that
they've
been
lumbered
with,
and
at
the
moment,
if
he's
they've
been
able
to
travel,
his
you
know
in
taken
were
workload
I
picture.
Your
bottom
dollar
he's
not
been
paid
trouble.
The
amount
of
Commission.
B
D
H
Beats
here,
and
for
me,
that's
that's
not
prevalent.
For
this
mean
there
is
issues
with
with
the
way
we've
paid,
but
with
purely
talking
about
the
banking
and
the
veil,
being
a
cash
and
I
feel
as
an
NFS
SP
member
as
a
sub
Postmaster.
They
are
listening
to
the
we,
but
that
we
have
P.
Things
are
Hartman
and
we're
not
paid
by
we're,
not
paints.
Officially
I
wouldn't
dispute
that,
but
that's
not
for
this
table,
I'm
just
looking
pacifically
on
what
the
post
office
can
offer,
swap
businesses
and
and
the
availability
of
cash,
but.
A
A
A
A
K
A
number
of
a
number
of
comments
and
I
have
to
see
I
was
a
grocer
I
want
for
our
bank
and
handle
cash
and
bank
cash
and
took
it
down
in
eight
safe.
Don't
have
Nate
safes
and
post
offices.
Do
you
know,
fundamentally
all
local
post
offices
and
mother
village
with
us
there
we
had
a
local
post
office
which
the
post
office
then
closed
and
moved
it
at
their
shop
convenience
store,
but
they
done
that
to
save
money
and
basically
so
they
wouldn't.
K
It
appear
that
postmaster
and
fund
went
where
the
last
20-30
years
there's
been
a
massive
change
and
financial
situations.
The
several
questions
of
God
thought:
I,
don't
tell
a
lot.
What
was
mr.
t
know?
What
do
you
do
as
a
shopkeeper?
No
get
change,
and
how
did
they
pay
in
that
cash
today?
Do
they
get
uplifted
by
a
security
firm
or
to
the
ticket
to
the
convenience
store
or
pier
they
Ava
and
a
post
office
within
their
own
store,
be
a
post
office.
D
Have
a
post
office
and
as
I
mentioned
before,
23%
of
our
retailers
do
have
a
post
office.
They
do
pay
the
cash
yes
straight
into
the
post
office
and
they
can
use
the
change
facilities
from
there,
but
the
remaining
70,
odd
percent
77
percent-
have
to
drive
somewhere
else
yeah.
That
means
car
parking
fees.
Yeah
extra
insurance,
yes
retain
their
take
out
their
business
and
often
you
know,
they've
got
lone
worker
situation,
so
they've
got
to
bring
somebody
else
in
to
pay
somebody
some
additional
wages.
D
So
there's
all
the
added
security
risk
insurance
costs
involved
in.
In
order
to
do
you
know,
in
order
to
do
all
of
that,
so
there
are
fundamental
issues.
If
you
look
at
sterling,
for
example,
there's
only
one
bank
that's
left
and
that's
inside
a
shopping
mall,
so
somebody
from
a
Noah
that
wanted
to
go
to
RBS
would
have
to
drive
all
the
way
to
sterling,
or
even
somebody
from
Dunblane
all
the
firms
in
the
country.
They
would
all
have
to
come
to
the
Sterling
branch.
That's
a
16
mile,
round-trip
I.
K
And
what
it
turns
I
had
a
rep
said:
they
saw
ad
for
bikes
in
the
high
street,
calling
it
one
note
and
and
Thank
You
Scotland
hope
you
see,
and
but
basically
the
dollar
question
I'll
ask
quickly
and
maybe
come
back
in
earlier.
If
I
can
get
money
out
of
any
ATM
even
abroad,
why
can't
I
pay
money
and
to
any
bank
anywhere
in
the
world?
I
have.
A
L
H
A
yes
and
when
a
bank
closes
and
they're
in
Mike
Mike
Keith
shop
that
there's
the
look
one
the
Bank
of
Scotland
closed,
so
they
were
very
upfront.
Do
it
and
keep
me
looking
strong
with
the
customers?
Are
we
making
aware
of
what
they
could
do
at
the
post
office
I
met
with
the
manager
at
s
there
and
we
try
to
have
a
negotiation
of
what
you
know,
how
make
it
smooth
as
possible,
but
it's
still
transfer
when
they
came
to
know.
H
This
is
what
I
did
in
the
bank
and
I
went
to
explain
them
once
once
it
gets
up
and
running.
Then
then
you
see
the
little
holes
and
the
check
deposits
being
a
framing
prime
example
and
I've
always
used
this
card.
Well,
you
kind
of
use
that
card
has
to
be
an
actual
debit
card.
You
know
people
would
take
funds
from
eat
em
to
be
so
Iseman.
I
still
think
I
said.
The
banks
are
not
good
enough
to
support
the
post
office
post
offices,
but
the
guards
do
what
we
can
do
for
them.
H
It's
too
broad
just
see
the
post
office.
Wells
can
service
your
needs.
Well,
we
can't
do
a
degree
and
we
want
to
to
a
degree,
but
it
has
to
be
accepted
that
this
is
what
we
can
offer
at
this
point
in
time
and
it's
always
going
to
be
a
difficulty
and
I
think
their
weirdness
for
a
person.
That's
a
Bank
of
Scotland
client
that
doesn't
have
to
go
about
the
Scotland
ATM
to
withdraw
cash.
H
It's
the
understanding
that
you
can
go
to
any
and
any
ATM
and
withdraw
cash
because
you
have
a
majority
of
customers
out
there
that
will
only
use
which
bank
there
with
the
ATM
underwear.
That
facility
is
available
from
the
post
office
before
all
the
bar.
We
used
to
deal
with
Clydesdale
all
Clydesdales
business
that
we
do
know
we've
done
it
for
the
last
ten
years,
but
people
we
didn't
share
about
it.
But
no
do
you,
you
know
I
never
did
lately.
H
A
C
I'll
be
done
with
just
complete
looking
car,
both
war
and
and
pol
City
I.
Think
there's
lots
of
what
to
raise
awareness
of
the
post
office
to
local
business.
He's
a
man
particular
I.
Think
my
one
north
caution,
which
NTT
DATA
earlier,
is
that
we
may
be
stimulating
demand
which
we
can't
service,
and
so
we
welcome
I'm
working
with
the
post
office
to
and
to
do
more
and
to
raise
awareness
of
the
service.
L
H
We
are,
we
are
not
sorry
myself
as
a
sub
postmaster
I'm,
not
f
is
a
compliant,
so
we
have.
We
have
products
that
we
can
offer,
but
we
don't
give
advice,
we
give
information
and
then
it's
a
client's.
So
with
a
bank
you
would
sit
down
with
a
with
a
bank
officer
and
he
would
give
you
information
on
advice
so
as
a
button
that
will
never
happen
unless
we
go
that
next
step
and
become
more
compliant.
So
we
have.
H
C
C
They
will
work
in
partnership
with
the
post
office
to
build
up
that
and
that's
service,
and
that
will
be
a
loss,
because
many
of
our
members
go
to
the
local
branch
for
advice
and
and
as
Paul
pointed
they
will
not
be
able
to
get
that
advice
from
the
post
office,
and
you
know
they're
RBS
have
community
bankers,
but
again
we
haven't
heard
much
about
them
and
what
they
do,
what
impact
they
have.
They
have
mobile
vans
which
and
what
you're
saying.
H
May
also
see
that
what
we're
talking
about
for
the
customer
so
there
the
customer
would
go
to
banking
to
speak
to
managers
speak
to
Claire.
That's
that's
being
a
service
that,
as
a
business
customer
has
been
lost
to
me
about
ten
years
ago.
You
know
because
we
had
to
reason
and
start
dealing
with
business
managers
from
Edinburgh
or
Glasgow.
You
know
so.
We've
leave
if
thickened
we've
pulled
the
rug
from
the
businesses
and
now
they're
just
doing
10
years
layer.
Four
for
the
customer.
You
know
they
will
contact
then
need
to
speed.
H
They
were
content
and
facilitate
a
meeting.
Some
one
of
the
local
offices
but
I
do
see
ground
and
in
a
soft
service
that
we
can
be
used
as
a
hub
to
help
with
information,
especially
in
areas
I
think
I'm
a
nearly
and
lost
most
in
the
northeast
of
Scotland,
the
biggest
well,
the
orderly,
only
sorry
FB
since
Scotland,
no
no
bank,
the
dateless,
the
other
post
on
us.
G
Thanks
for
much
M,
convenor
and
so
less
cash
is
being
used
now,
but
the
access
to
cash
report
indicates
that
there's
more
cash
in
circulation
right,
not
quite
sure
what
explains
that.
But
if
there's
less
cash
being
used,
the
costs
of
the
cash
infrastructure,
everything
from
the
printing
to
the
distribution
to
the
recycling
and
all
the
rest
of
it
has
probably
remained
virtually
constant.
G
A
comprehensive
government
led
a
process
in
place
to
ensure
that
that
all
works,
because
it
seems
to
me
that
little
bits
of
the
system,
whether
it's
the
banks,
the
ATM
providers,
regulatory
bodies,
have
all
made
a
number
of
individual
changes,
none
of
which
have
been
really
sort
of
tied
together
than
any
kind
of
comprehensive
look
and
so
I
just
wondered.
Is
there
a
nice?
Is
there
any
M
scope
for
that
happening?
A
comprehensive
government
led
a
review
and
I
also
wanted
to
ask
Peter
chima
in
particular.
What
does
a
scottish
solution?
D
It
back
to
the
basics
when
he
made
a
comment:
there's
less
cash
in
the
society,
not
in
Scotland.
Our
records
show
that
the
cash
over
the
last
four
years
has
been
relatively
constant
in
about
seventy
six
percent
demand
in
convenience
stores
and
that's
what
we
take
where
there's
been
a
demise
easier
south
of
the
border
in
London
and
so
forth
in
southeast
and
I.
Think
too
often
you
know
whatever
happens
down
there.
You
know
everybody
thinks
is
replicated
everywhere
else.
It's
not!
So
that's
the
first
point
I
would
like
to
make.
D
You
know
that
cash
is
still
very
important
to
us
and
even
when
he
gets
less
prominent
prominence,
he
probably
be
the
ruler
areas,
they'll
be
the
last
to
go
but
who's
driving.
All
of
this
is
the
banks.
The
banks
are
driving
it
because
they're
making
it
harder
to
pay
in
they're,
making
it
more
expensive
and
they
don't
want
it
because
it's
it's
a
it's
a
real
cost
to
them.
G
The
question
therefore
arises
in
terms
of
Andrew
Cragen's
point
about
comprehensive
and
government
led
review.
Cash
is
still
required.
Yes,
I
mean
you
talked
about
Scotland
the
figures
and
the
access
to
cash.
Severe.
Just
look
at
ATM
withdrawals,
three
point:
three
percent
reduction
in
Scotland
four
point:
three
percent
in
the
East
Midlands,
four
percent
in
the
West
Midlands
three
point:
three
in
wheels
were
not
that
different
on
that
metric
in
terms
of
cash
withdrawals.
Understand
that,
for
example,
going
through
convenient
stores
at
my
people
are
higher.
There's
a
various
ways
of
measuring
this
mm.
D
D
D
D
C
That
context
I
think
it's
important
to
bring
together
both
the
loss
of
it
use,
idioms
and
the
loss
of
bank
branch
closures
together
and
us
equation
about
is
what
we
have
enough
so
peak
point.
Today
we
have
less
than
5,000
DTM's
its
gaunt,
and
the
committee
report
showed
that
there
was
just
over
500
bank
branches
operating
in
Scotland.
We
have
a
business
population
of
350,000.
C
Is
that
enough
I
mean
I,
don't
I,
don't
think
it
is,
but
I
think
how's.
The
committee
report
pointed
I,
don't
know
because
there's
never
been
a
comprehensive
look
at
this
across
across
the
UK
and
I
mean
I.
Think
it
at
AF.
Esb
would
certainly
welcome
moves
to
do
something
with
him
Scotland
to
get
to
get
a
clearer
idea
of
where
we
are
and
what
was
required
because
I
mean
your
fears
is
already
too
late
and
that
we
are
going
down
a
direction
or
perhaps
don't
understand.
C
We
don't
really
know
what
the
impact
is
on
local
businesses.
We
are
characterizing,
those
who
oppose
branch
closures
and
the
loss
of
free
to
use
ATMs
and
as
dinosaurs
and
I.
Just
don't
think.
That's
that's
fear
and
I.
Think
we
need
a
much
more
object
to
be
about
the
future
of
local
banking
services
installed.
H
And
may
I
just
add
I'd
tada
when
we
look
at
what
is
the
correct
number
for
Scotland
ATMs,
so
I'm
pushed
off
his
heart
on
again
we
have
11.
A
half
thousand
offices.
Is
that
right,
if
I'm
being
honest,
I,
think
it's
we've
got
too
many,
but
government
are
paying
a
subsidy
to
ensure
that
we
have
that
criteria.
So
if
we
we're
to
be
in
control
of
our
own
destiny,
it
what
costs
the
Scottish
Government?
Will
it
be
to
have
what
you
see
being
sufficient
ATMs
free
to
use
and.
G
In
terms
of
the
universal,
the
the
banking
standard,
which
has
been
the
attempt
to
try
and
as
it
were,
forced
the
banks
to
behave
a
bit
better
in
regard
to
the
loss
of
bank
branches
ATMs
as
well,
is
that
sufficient
or
do
we
need,
as
it
were,
a
statutory
universal
banking
standard
that
defines
what
banking
is
the
needs
that
people
have
and
the
minimum
criteria
that
people
should
follow
in
order
to
have
a
banking
license?
I
think.
C
We
need
something
better,
that's
without
shadow
of
a
third
man.
You
know
the
access
to
banking
standard,
it
governs
how
you
close
a
branch,
and
it
was,
as
many
people
have
pointed
out.
Banks
are
not
required
to
consult
with
customers
before
the
clause,
the
gaol
of
the
data
and
then
the
consult
on
the
nature
of
the
closure.
I
think
that
is
a
fundamental
point
to
understand
to
you
that
there
is
no
ability
to
change
the
bank's
decision.
C
You
know
to
be
completely
candid
think
it's
a
bit
of
a
joke
and
it's
a
fairly
meaningless
document
that
does
not
have
any
impact
and
and
the
real
world,
and
that's
not
the
standing
in
fact
that
the
reserved
there
was
a
review
by
and
professor
Greg
spot
I
think
there
has
to
be
the
ability
to
independently
assess
the
proposal
put
forward
by
by
the
bank.
No,
they
are
saying
that
it's
not
viable
or
valid,
that
we
don't
have
footfall
and
we
don't
have
the
customers
thankful.
C
M
Very
much
good
morning
can
I
just
ask
very
quickly
in
terms
of
access
to
cash,
which
also
might
vary.
Highlands
is
really
important.
Could
you
still?
Is
it
possible
for
retailer
stilted
to
provide
cashback
services?
You
know
you
used
to
be
able
to
get
cash
back
as
a
simple,
normally
with
a
with
a
charge?
Is
that
still
available?
Given
that
you
know
you
can
pay
for
a
cup
of
coffee
now,
whatever
by.
E
The
provision
of
cash
back
services
is
something
I've
been
doing
quite
a
bit
of
work
on
on
behalf
of
our
members.
Recently
there,
the
the
again
and
again,
this
actually
comes
down
to
the
you
know
the
mechanisms
that
lie
behind
it,
which
always
and
fees
and
fees
and
charges
as
boring
as
that
might
might
might
be
to
discuss,
but
the
the
interchange
fees
that
are
are
levied
on
card
transactions
are
two
quite
excessive
for
different
discussion,
but
they're
quite
excessive
for
for
retailers.
E
I
spend
most
of
my
time
trying
to
campaign
for
those
for
those
for
those
fees
and
charges
to
come
down.
But
there
is
that
they're
applied
in
variable
ways,
depending
on
who
the
retailer
is
so
most
of
our
larger
members.
The
big
big
supermarkets
will
pay
a
card
fee
for
the
proportion
of
a
transaction
that
is
a
purchase,
and
for
that
which
is
cashback,
there
will
be
a
zero
they'll,
simply
be
no
interchange
fee
charged
on
that
part
of
the
transaction.
E
E
Looking
at
a
complete
opposite
situation,
we
need
we
need
to
move
to
a
situation
where
retailers
are
being
remunerated
for
the
service
that
they're
providing
in
terms
of
cash
back,
and
there
was
a
recent
announcement
from
MasterCard
that
they
would
be
providing
some
some
form
of
reimbursement
for
retailers,
for
cash
back
transactions
on
their
debit
cards.
But
MasterCard
do
not
constitute
a
great
deal
of
diet
of
debit
traffic
in
the
in
the
UK.
It's
it's
largely
visa,
and
so,
if
visa
make
a
similar
obligate
similar
undertaking,
then
that
would
be
a
very
positive
move.
E
D
Is
that
there's
a
payment
charge
for
the
terminal
and
then
there's
a
payment
charge
for
the
debit
and
credit
card
and
that
all
all
depends
upon
the
company?
Now
there
are
the
companies,
some
companies
that
you
may
have
all
gone
in
and
presented
your
flexible
friends
or,
and
then
you've
been
declined
and
said.
Well,
no,
we
don't
accept
that
and
the
reason
why
some
retailers
would
not
accept
it
is
because
the
charge
on
that
is
too
excessive.
M
But
that
could
be
if
those
charges
were
reversed
and
there
could
be
an
object.
Okay
can
I
I
mean
we've
heard
a
lot
today
and
at
the
previous
aquire
about
you
know.
Obviously,
the
issues
and
the
issues
of
regards
to
government
and
the
banking
code
and
the
like,
and
what
we
don't
always
hear,
is
a
huge
number
of
the
second
of
solutions
to
to
to
how
we
want
banking
services
to
be
delivered,
and
it's
not
just
cash.
M
Obviously
it
is
it's
issued
around
advise
Mortgage
Advice
debt
advice,
business
advice,
particularly
in
some
of
our
more
remote
areas.
So
I
was
just
wondering
if
there
are
any
examples,
maybe
not
within
the
UK
but
possibly
but
possibly
internationally,
where
they've
either
gone
through
this
process
or
they've
pre,
you
know
kind
of
prejudged
it
happening
and
have
found
a
solution
or
a
model
that
allows
those
kind
of
services
to
be
delivered
where
banks
may
be
a
pulling
back
I.
Don't
if
there's
any
examples,
they're
kind
of
practical
examples
that
you
you
can
quote
I.
C
Think
the
the
experience
I
point
to
is
the
piloting
of
shared
banking
hubs
and
in
England
and
your
you
know,
the
the
view
of
our
members,
as
detailed
in
our
research
early
on
the
year
on
the
future
of
local
places,
was
that
you'll
freaking
pilot
that
model
after
seeing
that
was
not
commercially
viable
for
a
very
long
time
with
an
England.
And
why
can't
we
pilot
that
in
the
rural
location
and
Scotland
to
see
to
see
if
it
works,
because
it
it
seems
such
an
obvious
solution.
You
know,
would
it
be
a
replacement?
C
If
you
look
back
to
the
Scotia
fields
committee
station
the
earlier
in
the
year
and
you
had
their
and
their
managing
director
of
personal
banking
and
talk
about
how
useful
that
service
could
be
become
both
and
engagements
that
we've
had
your
worth
with
governments
and
the
banks,
there's
been
no
our
potato
actually
do
it
and
so
I
think
to
to
pick
up
your
your
sentiment.
You
know
it's
important
that
we
actually
get
on
with
the
solutions
and
stop
talking
about
them.
Yeah.
M
C
H
When,
when
loss,
teammates
last
bank
was
closed
at
closing,
and
it
was
a
conversation
and
led
by
myself
and
Douglas
Ross
with
regards
to
looking
at
doing
us
at
Hubbard
in
lossing
involving
banks
involving
the
post
office,
most
of
us
would
be
the
mean
the
mean
and
stare
in
there,
but
there
would
be
there
would
be
pods
in
there,
which
could
be
our
bar.
It
could
be
a
number
of
box
and
who
would
pay
for
it.
H
I
think
the
banks
have
have
got
this
should
be
paying
for
it
because
they
have
walked
away
from
an
area
in
money
order
and
the
people
there
are
devastated,
but
was
nothing
there,
but
you've
got
walk,
doing
left
on
everybody
to
demand
something
else,
but
what
we
found
trying
to
instigate
this
was
was
all
the
red
tape.
You
correct
me
if
I'm
wrong,
but
you
can't
have
two
banks
and,
under
the
same
roof,
do
some
sort
of
legislation
with
regards
to
banking.
H
You
know,
there's
there
was
really
some
strange
things,
but
coming
out
with
regards
to
getting
a
number
of
financial
services
under
one
roof,
I'm
not
saying
it
can't
be
done.
I
would
love
to
see
it
done.
Yeah
I
think
there
is
a
way
forward
to
the
north,
even
in
the
South
of
England,
as
well
with
where
it's
very,
very
rural,
okay,.
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
We
we
now
welcome,
first
of
all,
Richard
Cooper
of
EVP
international
product
and
marketing
car
Tronics,
UK
Peter,
McNamara,
Note
machine
UK,
Limited,
chief
executive
officer,
Adrian
Roberts,
who
is
the
chief
commercial
officer
at
link,
Eric
Landers,
managing
director,
personal
finance,
UK
finance
and
Martin
Pierce,
Lee,
director
or
banking
for
the
post
office.
So
welcome
to
all
five
of
you
thank
you
for
coming
in
today.
A
N
N
N
I
think
what's
more
important
in
some
of
this
is
the
renewed
commitment
from
the
banks
and
the
significant
increase
in
revenue
to
the
post
office
from
the
banks,
courtesy
the
banking
framework
that
we've
recently
renegotiated
with
them,
which
has
gone
a
long
way
to
fixing
some
of
the
challenges
that
you
raised
with
us
last
time,
I
I
talked
to
you,
which
I've
noted
in
the
report
and
I'm
happy
to
come
back
to
at
some
point
through
this
next
session.
All.
A
N
Thought
in
that,
it's
very
clear
that
that
last
contribution
from
government
was
the
last
contribution
from
the
expiry
of
that
particular
deal
in
2021.
The
post
office
is
expected
by
government
to
be
completely
standalone,
sustainable
and
self-sufficient
on
its
own
two
feet:
a
commercial
going
concern
business
and
no
longer
being
paid
for
or
subsidized
by,
the
UK
taxpayer.
N
A
G
Very
much
and
first
of
all,
a
small
question
for
Anika
Linder's.
You
published
a
report
called
UK
cash
and
cash
machines,
2019,
which
sorry
have
a
look
either
comparison
which
I
was
keen
to
read,
but
I
discovered
it
cost
1500
pounds
per
fat.
Why
do
you
not
publish
reports
like
that
that
are
in
the
public
interest
and
provide
them
on
the
internet
for
free?
We.
O
O
Those
costs
is
through
our
data
publications
with
your
salt
ID,
when
we
have
to
give
you
that
good
eat
up,
but
I
think
what
you
find
is
that
for
the
debts
and
quality
of
the
research,
if
you
were
to
compare
the
costs
of
that
piece
of
research
against
other
academic
research
is
probably
priced
compared.
Ibly
in
the
marketplace.
P
I
can
answer
that
and
so,
and
I
think
link
has
a
view
that
the
ability
to
deposit
cash
as
an
ATM
would
but
would
be,
would
be
helpful
facility
to
consumers
and
businesses,
so
link
has
invested
and
it
has
built
the
capability,
the
technical
capability.
For
that
to
happen,
it
is
a
broader
industry
decision,
I
think
as
to
whether
that
capability
is
is
turned
on
and
and
and
if
the
industry
and
links
members
would
like
that
to
be
activated.
Then
we'd
be
very
happy
to
do
that
so
noticeable.
G
P
P
G
I
Now
we
would
dearly
love
to
provide
that
technology
applications
that
are
not
a
bank
branch
related
so
that,
where
there
isn't
a
bank
cash
can
be
paid
in,
be
that
at
a
retailer
or
some
other
type
of,
if
you
like,
through
the
wall
device
as
currently
is
available
for
ATMs.
Now
it's
a
nonsense
because,
as
Adrienne
says
quite
accurately,
the
software
system
exists
for
this
and
the
mechanism
exists
for
it.
We
do
it
for
banks
all
the
time,
because
many
of
our
customers
are
banks.
I
It
is
a
non
sense
that
it
does
not
exist
on
the
standalone
basis,
because
it
goes
a
long
way
to
addressing
some
of
the
concerns
we've
been
hearing
about
for
inbound
cash
into
the
system
at
far
lower
cost
than
paying
it
in
over
a
bank
counter
through
an
automated
device.
That
does
that
and
that's
you
know,
just
a
nonsense.
Really.
Fundamentally,
it's
important
that
link
does
push
this
as
Adrienne
has
mentioned,
and
they
are
doing
sir.
They
have
a
mandate
to
innovate.
G
And
there's
just
such
a
small
technical
point,
we
heard
from
the
representative
the
National
Federation
of
sub
postmasters
problem
of
being
about
liability
for,
for
example,
for
fraudulent
notes.
Forged
notes
that
that
those
questions
of
liability
are
separate
questions.
Are
they
from
the
mechanics
of
depositing.
I
Not
entirely
because
the
devices
that
take
in
bad
notes
can
carry
out
a
degree
of
checking
at
the
point
that
the
note
goes
in,
so
it's
partly
technically
available.
It
may
not
be
perfectly
technically
available,
but
there's
a
jolly
good
answer,
which
would
stop
the
vast
majority
of
inbound
fraudulent
notes,
which,
frankly,
is
amazingly
small,
as
was
indicated
apart
from
in
one
or
two
critical
occasion.
Should
we
say,
generally
speaking,
it
is
not
an
issue.
O
Perspective
from
the
banking
sector,
first
I
should
say
that
actually,
this
technology
is
being
piloted.
Currently
there's
three
sites
where
business
banking
shared
in
a
shared
utility
across
three
of
the
leading
brands,
is
already
entrained.
We
have
to
be
very
thoughtful
about
introducing
new
technologies.
We
have
to
make
sure
that
clearly
they
are
absolutely
effective.
One
component,
of
course,
is
the
software
hardware
upgrades
within
the
link
network.
The
other
key
component
is
the
extent
to
which
it
needs
to
interact
with
individual
firms
systems.
O
So
there
is
some
substantive
testing,
that's
required
for
that,
and
then
on
this
particular
point
of
the
hardware
rather
than
the
software
most
of
the
banks
that
have
their
own
ATM
cycles
will
have
a
replenishment
cycle,
so
we'll
in
effect,
have
a
program
of
replacement
for
their
machines
and
clearly
they
wouldn't
want
to
necessarily
break
that
cycle
because
of
the
costs
involved.
So,
as
I
think
we
just
a
few
noises
to
the
points
that
have
already
been
made
around
the
table
and.
G
G
O
Q
Of
the
I
think
things
that
we
haven't
touched
on
in
the
answers
that
you've
given
is
that
one
of
the
fundamental
things
that's
missing
from
that
deposit
structure
is
a
fee
so
having
an
interchange
for
a
fee
for
a
deposit.
So
once
you
can
build
the
business
case,
actually
rolling
those
machines
out
is
possible,
but
with
until
that
business
case
of
ever
made,
you
can't
make
the
investment
sure.
N
We
are
about
to
raise
that
limit
again
from
two
thousand
to
four
thousand
and
that's
in
direct
response
to
the
fact
that,
with
the
emergence
of
the
banking
framework,
the
success
of
the
cash
coming
into
the
branches-
and
it
is
a
success-
I'll
come
back
to
that
point
a
moment.
It's
not
without
its
challenges,
but
it's
a
success.
N
N
But
a
very
significant
part
of
the
volume
comes
in
to
a
smaller
number
of
post
offices
than
you
might
imagine
in
all
of
those
where
those
larger
sums
are
brought
in
postmaster
and
bank
and
and
customer
make
the
right
arrangements
for
that
large
sum
to
come
in
and
one
of
the
challenges
you
raised
it
to
me
last
time
and
was
commented
again
today
and
I
would
like
to
correct
dr.
chima
in
terms
of
you
know,
we
need
to
be
paid
more.
N
We
are
continually
working
to
pay
more
better
remuneration,
so
I
want
to
give
you
some
very
specific
sums,
because
I
think
it
is
appropriate
to
talk
about
this.
This
is
vital
in
supporting
local
post
masters,
who
are
taking
brunt
of
all
this
cash
coming
in.
Whilst
the
banks
are
restructuring
and
trying
new
systems
and
so
forth,
where
we
used
to
pay
and
I'll
do
two
specifics:
2,000
pounds
and
ten
thousand
pounds
for
tousle
ranges.
N
We
used
to
pay
45
pence
per
two
thousand
pounds
for
a
postmaster,
which
we
all
accepted
was
absolutely
will
hate
below
what
was
acceptable
and
way
below
what
was
survivable.
We
now
pay
two
pounds
31
for
that
same
transaction.
That's
something
like
a
five-fold
increase,
a
500%
increase
in
what
we're
paying
per
transaction
for
those
for
those
transactions.
If
you
go
up
to
ten
thousand
pounds
which
some
of
the
larger
businesses
are
bringing,
we
used
to
pay
one
pound
seventy-three
and
we
now
pay
eleven
pounds
and
three
pens.
That's
from
April
2020.
N
By
the
way
we've
paid
some
already
and
we're
paying
more
in
April
20,
that's
a
six
times
increase,
so
we
have
fundamentally
worked
with
the
banking
industry.
We
have
put
significant
price
increases
in
so
there
is
a
lot
more
coming
into
the
post
office
from
the
banking
industry.
That
was
a
difficult
discussion
as
Eric
and
I
can
testify.
Nobody
likes
a
price
increase,
but
it
is
reflective
of
the
cost
of
cash
around
the
country.
N
So
we
have
made
significant
inroads
in
making
banking
more
profitable
for
postmasters
around
the
country
to
make
them
encourage
their
local
businesses,
communities
to
stay
in
town,
stay
open
and
Bank
their
money
on
the
way
home,
as
opposed
to
have
to
drive
to
the
nearest
town.
So
some
of
those
changes
I
think
since
our
last
conversation
I
think
have
been
extremely
positive
and
we
would
wish
to
do
more,
but
we're
doing
practical
work
on
the
ground.
Now,
whilst
the
industry
restructures
around
us,
okay
to.
G
G
Yes,
it
is
okay,
that's
my
and
and
in
the
access
to
cash
study.
I
mentioned
this
earlier.
I
mean
uk-wide
payment
volumes.
Verse
for
cash
have
declined
dramatically
over
the
last
ten
years,
but
the
value
of
cash
and
circulation
has
risen
dramatically,
am
I
just
being
stupid.
Is
there?
Is
that
not
convoys
I'm,
not
country?
That's.
O
Mr.
Linda
I
think
the
analysis
that
we've
undertaken
has
shown
a
consistent
decline
in
the
use
of
cash
across
the
UK
generally
local
transactions.
We've
consistently
looked
to
predict
where
they
decline
like
for
year
on
year,
we've
actually
underestimated,
so
it's
quite
an
aggressive
decline
in
the
use
of
cash.
O
The
reason
why
the
two
numbers
don't
immediately
appear
to
correlate
I'd
suggest
is
because
what
we
understand
is
that
there
is
a
lot
more
hoarding,
so
customers,
individuals,
business,
tend
to
carry
more
cash
than
they
have
done
previously,
rather
than
necessarily
spend
it
and
another
data
point
that
might
substantiate
that
is
I.
Think
we
would
also
see
or
recognize
that
customers
generally
are
making
fewer
cash
withdrawals
than
they
had
done
previously.
So
actually,
there's
volumes
of
cash
that
aren't
being
recycled
through
the
system,
they're
actually
staying
with
consumers
as
as
informal
savings
and
that's
okay.
G
I
mean
the
payment
volumes
of
the
cash
from
2007
have
dropped
from
about
twenty-two
thousand
million
twenty
two
billion
to
about
six
billion,
but
over
the
same
period
the
amount
of
cash
in
circulation
has
risen.
From
about
forty
billion
to
seventy
I
mean
this
is
not
about
correlation,
there's
actually
heading
in
opposite
directions.
Anyway,
maybe
you
find
out
the
answer
to
that
somewhere
else,
but.
I
B
I
Indeed,
because
in
effect,
the
cost
of
holding
it
somewhere
is
much
lower
than
the
cost
of
moving
it.
Okay,
it's
as
simple
as
that.
Really
so
that's
what's
causing
the
system
to
really
have
very
high
levels
of
cash
in
circulation.
Notionally
not
very
much
I
would
come
back
on
one
point,
though,
very
quickly:
people
keep
on
talking
about
the
demand
for
cash.
Falling
was
a
bit
like
saying
the
demand
for
breads
falling
when
you've
closed.
I
All
the
bakers,
because,
fundamentally
you've
you've
got
a
position
where,
if
you
take
Scotland
for
a
example,
I
think
smart
Bodi
have
suggested
that
there
would
be
300
ATMs
closed
in
the
coming
year,
what
his
overachieved
considerably,
because
the
price
reduction
in
interchange
has
closed
500
and
the
number
of
free
to
use
ATMs
in
Scotland
has
reduced
by
nearly
20
percent
over
the
last
year.
So
it's
unsurprising,
the
number
of
cash
withdrawals
are
falling.
If
there's
a
little
more
limited
supply.
G
I
P
It's
the
coverage,
so
you
know
we
can
all
think
of
busy
city
centres
where
we
can
step
out
to
the
high
streets,
and
there
are
twenty
thirty
forty
ATMs
within
a
five
minute,
walk
and
they're
very
well,
provisioned
over-provisioned
and
you
might
say-
and
but
actually
you
know
what
we
need
to
focus
on
is
those
ATMs.
We
call
them
protected
ATMs
that
are
a
kilometre
or
more
away
from
the
next
nearest
ATM,
because
that's
that's
what
consumers
value.
P
So
you
know
if
a
few
ATMs
close
and
in
an
edinburgh
city
centre,
there's
probably
little
or
no
consumer
detriment
at
all,
but
it's
when
they
close
in
more
rural
or
deprived
areas
that
that
can
have
a
real
impact
on
people's
lives.
So
so
that's
what
link
has
has
chosen
to
focus
on
I
have
to
say
that
we're
broadly
happy
with
the
stability
of
our
protected
ATM
estates
in
Scotland.
There's
about
350
of
these
ATMs
in
Scotland
that
link
our
the
link
are
protecting.
A
Just
on
the
the
points
Peter
McNamara
has
made:
if
what
I
think
I'd
be
interested
in
knowing
is
in
terms
of
cash
usage,
as
someone
like
myself
might
like
using
cash
but
younger
people,
a
lot
of
them
in
my
experience,
don't
use
any
and
that's
in
spite
of
living
in
city
centers,
where
there's
cash
freely
available.
If
they
want
it
now,
that's
just
anecdotal
but
other
other
figures
showing
how
cash
is
used
between
the
generations
age
groups,
depending
on
where
they
are
rural
city
and
so
forth,
do
do
we
have
figures
that
I
appreciate.
A
I
Certain
you're
seeing
reduction
in
cash
usage
amongst
the
Millennials,
but
interestingly
the
post
millennial
generation
tends
to
be
quite
high.
Cash
users,
as
are
frankly,
more
elderly
people
and
I.
Think
one
of
the
things
that
it
is
important
not
to
forget,
because
it's
easy
in
groups
like
this
to
do
so.
The
majority
of
people
use
cash
as
a
mechanism
for
budgeting.
I
This
is
absolutely
key
to
what
it's
about.
Most
people
in
this
country
have
to
budget
carefully
to
do
so.
If
you're
using
cards
or
phone
devices
is
extraordinarily
difficult
to
know
that
the
hundred
pounds
or
50
pounds
you
put
in
your
personal
wallet
has
to
last
you
a
week
is
straightforward
and
manageable
by
most
and
of
course,
there's
a
high
correlation
that
the
poorer
you
are
more
frequently,
you
probably
have
to
access
cash
to
be
able
to
budget
carefully.
I
So
predominantly
many
of
the
ATMs
we
deploy
tend
to
be
away
from
the
city
centers.
That
Adrienne
referred
to
where
there's
a
density
of
ATMs
into
lower
footfall
locations
where
there
are
fewer
both
because,
obviously
that's
logical,
to
meet
the
demand
that
there
is
in
that
place,
but
also
because
functionally
the
budgeting
of
cash
is
more
important,
which
is
why,
for
a
number
of
years,
we've
had
a
business
model
that
was
focused
entirely
on
the
provision
of
free
to
use
cash
and
one
which
is
now
not
able
to
do
that.
I
N
Very
much
support
what
Peter
said
about
how
this
the
in
answer.
The
question
about
these
sort
of
split
between
generations
and
locations
is
really
very
telling.
You
I'm
sure
we'll
all
recognize
that
there's
a
post
office
pretty
much
on
the
corner
of
every
Street
in
the
country
we
have
over
6,000
in
rural
locations
and
many
in
urban
deprived.
It's
one
of
the
great
benefits
of
the
cash
withdrawal
service
we
offer
is
that
you
can
withdraw
to
the
penny
and
supporting
what
Peter
said
about
many
people
budgeting
very
closely
to
the
penny.
N
Every
day
around
about
20%
of
our
cash
withdrawal
transactions
are
less
than
20
pounds
and
they
are
non-round
amounts.
It's
not
the
50
or
the
hundred
that
you
might
withdraw
one
ATM.
They
are
six
pound
13.
They
are
12
pound,
43
whatever
it
is
that
that
particular
customer
accessing
their
account
several
different
times
each
week
in
some
cases
each
day
need
for
that
moment
and
there's
a
there's,
a
very
trippy
acronym.
We
all
love
them
SGI
service
of
general
economic
interest.
N
It's
a
it's
a
mandatory
service
that
the
post
office
provides
on
behalf
of
government
to
make
sure
the
benefits
in
cash
cash
withdrawals
are
available.
Access
to
cash
is
available
to
the
entire
population
as
a
mandated
service.
So
we
are
we're
very
proud
to
serve
that
fact
that
many
of
those
customers
withdrawing
to
the
penny,
it's
actually
a
vital
part
of
helping
them
budget
and
based
on
where
we
are
the
demographics
of
where
we
are
physically.
N
N
Actually,
what
we
support
and
what
I
think
we
should
focus
on
here-
is
supporting
the
most
vulnerable,
the
ones
who
need
cash
to
the
penny,
the
ones
who
live
in
the
Royal
at
the
rural
estate
and
the
ones
who
live
in
urban
deprived
areas
they're
the
ones
that
we
that
we
should
be
supporting
most
because
they're,
the
ones
that
need
cash.
The
longest
I.
A
O
You
I
just
want
to
set
up
absolutely
support
the
view
from
the
witnesses
this
morning
that
actually
customers
should
be
able
to
choose
the
type
of
payments
that
they
like
to
make
be
that
digital
be
that
cash
we're
very
supportive
of
that.
We've
worked
very
proactively
with
the
post
office
as
one
of
those
channels
as
access
to
cash.
O
Equally,
though,
I
don't
know,
this
is
straightforward
and
binary
choice,
so
there
are
is
a
certainly
value
in
budgeting,
for
example,
by
using
cash,
but
equally
there
are
protections
by
paying
making
payments
digitally
which
wouldn't
be
available
for
Kay,
so
I
think
we
need
to
have
a
wider
discussion
about
the
best
way
to
pay,
as
opposed
to
whether
cash
or
another
channel
should
be
made
available.
I
do,
however,
appreciate
that
this
discussion
is
very
much
around
access
to
cash.
This
morning.
F
P
Yes,
I
can
so
and
the
the
interchange
fee
there's
a
couple
of
different
fees
in
play,
but
the
one
I
think
it's
most
relevant
is
the
cash
withdrawal,
interchange,
Vietnam,
Bank
locations.
So
that's
so
that's
about
twenty
six
pence
today
and
that's
come
down
from
for
around
twenty
nine
pence,
but
before
link
made,
the
reductions
and
I
think
it
might
be
helpful
if
I
can
just
give
you
a
minute
of
background
on
Lincoln's
change.
P
So
back
at
the
beginning
of
2018
link
took
the
decision
to
reduce
the
standard
rate
of
interchange
that
was
paid
and
to
do
that
in
five
percent
increments.
So
two
of
those
have
now
been
completed,
a
link
decided
to
do
that
for
for
two
main
reasons.
Firstly,
it
was
too
high
in
those
urban
City
Center
locations,
and
that
was
evidenced
by
the
the
proliferation
of
ATMs
that
we've
spoken
about.
Those
ATMs
are
paid
for
by
the
banks
and
building
societies
and
because
of
the
model
of
banking
that
we
offer
in
this
country.
P
That
means
they
were
being
paid
for
effectively
by
all
of
us
around
or
around
this
table.
So
there
were
too
many
ATMs
in
the
world
where
cash
usage
is
falling,
but
on
the
flip
side,
actually
we
thought
well.
Interchange
isn't
high
enough
in
the
rural
areas.
So
in
the
world
again,
where
we're
ATM
usage
is
falling.
Some
of
those
rural
ATMs
were
at
risk
of
becoming
economically
unviable.
Closing
changing
to
pay
to
use
so
link
increased
the
interchange
in
those
on
those
rural
machines
and,
in
some
cases,
increase
them
by
more
than
10
times.
P
F
What
we
hear
in
previous
evidence
and
in
when
we
looked
at
the
bank
inquiry,
was
that
the
introduction
of
fees
for
cash
withdrawals
was
being
impacted
because
of
these
interchange
fees.
But
you're
telling
me
is
a
3p
reduction,
that's
happening
and
the
cash
withdrawals.
Yeah
we've
got
no
machine
who
have
been
in
the
process
of
removing
ten
thousand
three
ATMs
across
the
UK
and
charging
99p
I'm
just
reading
off
a
core
of
god.
F
I
P
If
I
can
respond
to
that,
if
I,
if
I
may
so
there's
about
1300
pay
to
use
ATMs
in
Scotland
today
might
interest
you
to
know
that
back
in
2015
there
were
1500.
So
while
the
number
is
it
is
growing,
they
still
account
for
about
5%
of
with
withdrawals.
But
But.
Notwithstanding
that
and
I
think
links
position
is
pay
to
use
ATMs
offer
convenience,
but
all
consumers
must
have
a
choice
as
to
whether
they
use
those
or
not.
P
So
if
you
are
willing
to
pay
for
that
level
of
convenience,
then
then
fine,
but
if
you
don't
want
to
pay
to
access
your
cash,
then
you
shouldn't
have
to
so
link
has
built
an
ATM
locator
and
an
ATM
app.
So
you
can
see
where
all
the
ATMs
are
in
the
country
and
near
where
you
are,
and
actually
all
the
post
offices
as
well.
So
you
can
make
a
decision
whether
you
want
to
visit
an
ATM,
the
charges
or
an
ATM
that
doesn't
now.
Of
course,
we
recognize.
P
P
Why
link
introduced
a
community
request,
an
ATM
initiative
back
in
October
of
this
year,
which
allows
any
member
of
the
public
actually
to
contact
us
and
say
look
there's
a
problem
accessing
cash
near
where
I
live
or
either
there
is
no
access
to
cash
or
or
I
have
to
pay
for
it.
And
you
know
we
will
we
will.
We
will
investigate
that
and
we
will
put
free
to
use
ATM
in
if
that's
needed
and
we've
had.
You
know
what
interest
use.
P
The
first
ATM
that
we're
installing
as
results
is,
going
live
this
week
in
der
Ness,
so
you
know
we
are
taking
action
now
to
to
preserve
and
maintain
access
to
cash
where
it's
needed
and
one
thing
I'd
like
to
offer.
The
committee
today
is
I
think
we
we
at
link
recognize
that
Scotland
can
be
a
bit
different
from
the
rest
of
the
UK,
so
a
lot
of
very
rural
areas
and
it
can
take
a
long
time
to
travel
and
from
from
one
location
to
another.
P
I
O
Briefly,
to
build
on
what
my
colleague
said
within
UK
finance,
we
are
also
developing
a
community
access
to
cash
initiatives.
This
is
a
pilot
where
perhaps
the
answer
might
not
be
an
ATM
for
whatever
reason,
but
there
might
be
an
alternative
solution
that
again
elected
officials
would
consider
would
be
helpful
for
their
communities.
C
Q
Know
I
just
wanna
pick
up
on
a
couple
of
points
have
been
made
a
car
Tronics.
We
don't
believe
that
the
link,
interchange
cuts,
have
been
effective.
What
they
were
trying
to
do
was
reduce
the
oversupply
in
city
centres,
and
actually,
what's
happened
is
as
a
result
of
that.
What
we're
losing
is
a
lot
of
the
ATMs
and
more
in
a
more
rural
and
suburban
districts,
and
we've
always
been
talking
about
the
best
way
to
do.
Q
This
is
through
a
zonal
interchange
structure
which
compensates
ATM
deployers
for
putting
ATMs
in
places
where
they're
needed
in
an
effective
way.
That
isn't
just
one
ATM
at
a
time,
and
it
allows
us
to
get
the
right
compensation
for
putting
an
ATM
in
a
more
expensive
place
to
serve,
and
you
can
zone
that
so
that
actually,
the
central
city
centre
ATMs
get
less
interchange
and
they
do
today
and
that
encourages
a
reduction
in
supply
throughout
through
to
the
outer
edges.
Q
F
Just
on
the
point
you
say
there
we
are
edging
about
the
number
of
free
ATMs
I've
got
a
letter
here
from
a
retailer
in
ed
and
who
represents
one
of
the
pure
areas
in
Edinburgh.
It's
an
old
machine
and
the
basically
being
told
it's
going
to
be
99p
fee.
Now,
on
average
were
talking
about
150
years.
It
seems
to
be
the
average
number,
so
I
accept
maintain
a
piece
of
it
cheaper
than
the
average
of
150
but
say
you're,
a
young
person.
F
It's
and
Jobseeker's
Allowance
your
weekly
amount
that
you're
getting
is
57
pounds,
90,
you're
half
they
have
a
bank
account
for
that
to
be
paid.
So
you
go
along
to
withdraw
your
Jobseeker's
Allowance
they're,
getting
charged
one
pound.
Fifty
that's
a
tax
of
two
and
a
half
percent,
or
not
young
person,
which
is
equivalent
of
us,
going
Christmas
short
and
then
were
throwing
a
maximum
of
three
hundred
pound
in
yellow
being
charged
eight
pounds.
If
that
was
a
case,
there
would
be
up
world
from
the
population
if
they're
getting
charged
eparenting
access
than
of
cash.
F
P
I,
don't
think
it's
acceptable,
I,
don't
think
it's
acceptable
that
anyone
have
to
pay
to
access
their
own
cash
and-
and
that's
the
point
I
wanted
to
make
earlier.
It's
you
know
it's
about
giving
consumers
choice.
So
I'd
be
very
interested
to
hear
more
about
that
that
particular
example
and
to
know,
for
example,
is
there
a
v'?
I
This
is
a
critical
one
for
us.
Our
business
model
historically
was
always
one
of
providing
free
to
use
access.
It's
the
only
thing
we
did
for
10
years.
We've
argued
for
the
last
three
that
the
changes
that
are
being
now
put
in
place
by
link
to
lower
this
cost
is
going
to
cause
the
detriment.
It
clearly
is
so
you
know
we're
hearing
about
one
ATM
going
into
Denese
when
Scotland
has
lost
1103
ATMs
over
the
last
12
months.
It
doesn't
work
way.
I
think
there
has
to
be
seriously
understood
by
everyone
in
practice.
I
You
can't
do
it
through
that
mechanism.
You've
got
it
down
to
23
pence
for
a
cash
withdrawal.
If
you
put
a
person
to
pay
away
cash,
there
is
no
way
you
can
make
that
economic
at
that
sort
of
price.
So
you
can
pay
far
far
more.
If
you
have
people
handing
cash
over
counters
to
address
that
concern,
as
we
heard
recently
this
morning
from
the
retail
consortium
and
from
Pete
Chima,
it
doesn't
work
strongly.
I
We
believe
that
cash
supply
has
to
become
a
type
of
regulated
utility
if
it's
going
to
be
on
a
free
basis,
which
it
should
be
for
all.
The
reasons
have
just
alluded
to
the
average
ATM
withdrawal
is
often
quoted
at
around
70
pen,
a
seventy
pounds.
The
modal
number
either
most
frequently
used,
is
near
a
twenty,
so
don't
make
any
mistakes
about
what
is
going
on.
This
is
poor
people
budgeting
carefully
everywhere,
not
just
in
rural
locations
in
urban
locations
as
well.
It's
a
universal
need,
and,
frankly,
the
present
mechanism
just
doesn't
work.
I
It
had
worked
free
previously,
quite
well,
but
now
it's
been
largely
destroyed
and
the
network
is
not
capable
of
being
replaced.
Once
it's
gone,
the
cost
of
putting
it
back
into
place
is
huge
and
the
rate
of
decline
that
we're
seeing
over
the
last
12
months
will
continue
if
not
accelerate,
as
contracts
come
to
an
end
and
the
demand
for
cash
doesn't
really
go
away,
but
the
supply
is
radically
reduced.
Don't
forget.
The
absence
of
these
ATMs
is
removing
economic
activity
from
where
they're
situated
and
putting
it
somewhere
else.
I
To
be
very
blunt,
this
is
sleepwalking
into
a
bit
of
a
disaster
over
the
absence
of
cash
and
I'm
afraid
to
say
that
Scotland
is
leading
the
way
by
losing
more
than
anywhere
else
as
it
lost
more
bank
branches
than
anywhere
else
did,
and
this
is
a
really
serious
question
which
I,
don't
think
is
being
adequately
addressed.
The
needs
to
be
some
mechanism
which
currently
isn't
being
looked
at
to
guarantee
the
supply
of
cash,
otherwise
that
infrastructure
won't
exist.
O
More
dimensions
to
the
discussion
than
we've
heard
just
now,
previously
witnesses
discussed
the
cash
back
pilot,
for
example,
which
I
understand
both
Visa
and
MasterCard
are
interested
in
pursuing
what
that
would
do
to
the
very
point
that
was
made
was
that
would
put
cash.
We
draw
availability
into
the
economic
hub
because
you
would
in
effect,
be
taking
that
cash
out
at
the
retailer.
Now
again,
perhaps
in
a
similar
answer
to
my
previous
comments,
this
is
a
pilot
which
is
in
train
again.
N
Just
thought
it
was
wasn't.
You
can
obviously
hear
the
committee
can
can
hear
the
challenges
in
the
ATM
structure
between
the
between
my
panelists
beside
me,
I
think
again
back
into
some
sort
of
kind
of
practical
reality.
If
you
like
things
that
are
happening
in
the
post
offices,
I
think
this
challenge
is
one
reason
why
we've
seen
close
on
a
10%
increase
year-on-year
in
the
amount
of
cash
withdrawals,
both
volume
and
value
out
of
post
offices
UK
wide,
but,
interestingly
over
40
percent
increase
in
cash
deposits.
N
So
I
think
what
we
are
talking
about
here
is
about
cash
withdrawals,
access
to
cash,
for
people
to
come
and
get
cash.
I
think
the
the
whole
cash
cycle
is
something
that
needs
to
be
strongly
considered
in
all
of
these
discussions
because
we're
the
local
businesses
who
still
trade
on
cash
and
take
cash
in
from
their
customers.
N
They
all
need
somewhere
to
bank,
that
cash
increasingly,
it's
the
post
office,
so
completing
that
cash
cycle,
bringing
it
back
in,
has
seen
the
biggest
single
rise,
which
again
has
brought
us
back
to
that
two
thousand
four
thousand
pound
thing
from
before.
But
it's
that
sort
of
cash
cycle
I
think
that
we
should
really
start
to
focus
on
as
well
as
how
customers
can
get
access
to
their
cash,
but
we've
seen
growth
in
both
significantly
the
last
year.
Whilst
this
restructuring
carries
on
around
us.
Q
Points
on
the
points
that
I
made
earlier
I
think
what
we
need
to
think
about
is
who
bears
the
cost
of
serving
the
consumer.
So
you
talked
about
fees
on
on
ATMs,
and
so
the
consumer
carries
that
cost
when,
when
a
fee
is
introduced
on
an
ATM,
the
banks
pay
nothing
so
they're
getting
a
free
service
for
their
customers
at
the
expense
of
the
customer.
If
you
look
at
cashback
and
I
agree,
I
think
cashback
has
a
role
to
play,
but
it
also
puts
the
cost
onto
the
merchant
because
they
have
to
hold
more
cash.
Q
A
L
Thanks
very
much
convener
of
the
discussion
a
little
to
digital
online
banking
services
in
the
impact
that
that
may
have
had
on
more
vulnerable
sections
of
society.
I
mean
we
we
heard
from
the
bank
cell
in
my
constituency
when
they
closed
their
local
branches,
that
more
and
more
online
transactions
were
being
carried
out.
But
but
not
can
I
rather
left
behind
an
important
section
of
the
community,
vulnerable
people
and
possibly
older
people.
P
P
What
also
needs
to
be
recognized
is
digital
payment
methods,
don't
work
for
every
person
in
every
place
and
every
time
and
that's
why
maintaining
cash
is
really
important
and
that's
why
link
has
made
a
a
very
public
commitment
to
do
whatever
it
takes
to
maintain
this
broad
geographic
spread
of
ATMs,
because
I
think
it's
an
I.
Think
innovation
in
payments
is
a
wonderful
thing,
but
I
also
think
cash
plays
a
very
important
role
in
adding
not
just
addressing
the
needs
of
specific
parts
of
society,
but
also
providing
resilience
and
to
the
payments
system.
Overall,.
I
I
commend
very
strongly
to
the
members
of
the
committee
that
they
take
a
look
at
this,
because
this
is
technology
type,
that's
available
to
others,
including
the
post
office
and
retailers.
It's
something
that
may
provide
an
answer
to
providing
a
more
cost
economic
way
of
providing
physicality.
A
lot
of
financial
services
are
too
complex
for
people,
even
if
they're
adept
at
using
digital
forms
to
be
able
to
do
them,
because,
frankly,
they
don't
purchase
them
that
frequently
without
some
degree
of
advice
and
hand-holding
over
the
technology.
I
It
won't
work
very
hard
where
there
have
been
very
few
locations.
The
only
probable
answer
to
this,
which
is
one
much
discussed
and
alluded
to
before,
is
probably
by
the
sharing
of
that
input,
in
effect
electronic
connections
to
other
banks,
to
provide
that
service
and
I
think
this
is
a
practical
digital
way
forward,
which
is
very
much
one
that
we
see
being
relevant
to
provide
an
effective
physical
element
of
branch
in
locations
which
are
neck
for
conventional
Bank
structures
to
work
and.
I
In
effect,
we're
putting
screens
in
place
that
connect
people
with
the
contact
centres
of
banks
and
other
providers
for
that
particular
type
of
advice
that
they
may
need
for
a
more
complex
financial
product,
as
well
as
the
provision
of
foreign
currency,
of
the
provision
of
transfers
between
accounts
or
paying
in
to
bank
accounts.
At
you
know,
should
we
say
in
a
semi
industrial
level,
for
small
businesses
and
for
retailers,
I
mean.
L
I
N
You,
deputy
QV,
you
know,
and
last
time
we
talked-
and
you
mentioned
it
earlier
this
morning.
The
Royal
Bank
of
Scotland,
here
talking
about
community
bankers
and
I,
think
it's
very
important
that
when
they
remove
themselves
physically
from
from
the
local
community,
recognizing
that
a
number
of
customers
aren't
comfortable
talking
to
a
screen
or
talking
to
talking
online
or
in
many
cases,
don't
have
access
to
reliable
broadband
and
sort
of
always
online
services.
N
What
we
have
started
to
do
is
to
provide
a
kind
of
a
surgery
much
as
you'd
recognize
yourselves
how
to
accommodate
different
bank
representatives
in
post
offices
in
local
areas.
So
there
really
is
a
human
being
that
comes
along
each
week.
The
community
bankers
in
particular
can
visit
a
branch
they
can
talk
to
their
particular
customers
and
we
are
trying
to
be
sort
of
nobly
independent
in
this.
We've
asked
them
not
to
try
and
you
know,
secure
each
other's
customers.
N
No
poaching
is
allowed,
but
if
you
can
arrange
an
appointment
because
you've
got
a
direct
debit
or
you've
got
a
mortgage
question
or
you've
got
some
sort
of
more
complex
issue
that
you
wish
to
discuss.
Face-To-Face
you
can
do
that
in
a
in
a
staffed
post
office,
I've
fully
recognized
many
of
them,
the
tiniest
village
ones.
There
isn't
the
space.
N
So
that's
going
to
be
a
challenge,
but
in
some
of
our
larger
areas,
the
provision
of
a
desk
in
a
chair
and
an
online
connection
enables
that
face-to-face
communication
from
those
bank
representatives,
because
we,
as
the
post
office,
we've
never
set
out
to
be
the
bank,
we're
there
to
support
communities
left
behind
by
the
bank
and
if
we
can
do
something
to
encourage
them
and
give
them
a
physical
vocation
to
come
back
and
talk
to
their
customers
that
need
that
kind
of
face-to-face
help.
Then
that's
what
we're
looking
to
do.
O
O
Thank
you,
I
think
I
might
have
missed
a
very
valid
point
about
community
bankers
out
of
Royal
Bank
of
Scotland,
unless
I
was
formally
in
that
West
Bank
branch
manager,
and
actually
the
reassurance
for
some
customers
that
maybe
perhaps
a
very
straightforward
task
to
a
lot
of
us
has
been
completed
in
a
face-to-face
into
our
interaction,
draws.
A
level
of
assurance
that
we
shouldn't
underestimate
so
I
think
that's
very
welcome.
O
I'd
also
commend
the
digital
Eagles,
a
project
by
Barclays,
for
example,
where
actually
I
think
they
find
that,
having
taught
through
the
different
options
and
and
different
digital
solutions
for
everyday
banking,
they've
found
very
high
success
rates
and
that
doesn't
necessarily
I'll
break
down
into
particular
age.
Demographics,
etcetera,
just
the
fact
that
it
is
useful,
it's
convenient,
it's
helpful
is
something
that
they've
found
has
been
very
successful
for
them
as
well.
So
there
are
some
individual
case
studies
as
well
as
the
emerging
more
shared
services.
O
One
thing
I
would
just
say
is
that
in
2020
we've
we
run
a
consumer
advisory
group
choked
by
the
CEO
of
Citizens
Advice.
We
have
represented
representation
from
Citizens,
Advice,
Scotland,
etc.
As
other
devolved
Nations,
and
during
that
considering
our
priorities
for
2020
during
the
sort
of
that
I
guess,
the
second
third
and
fourth
quarters
of
2020,
we
will
be
looking
to
broaden
the
I
guess.
O
A
K
My
viewers
banking,
has
changed
over
the
years
and
if
I
can
put
my
card
than
any
cut
any
known
fee
paying
cap
machine
to
take
money
out,
I
should
be
able
to
pay
it
back
and
I
can
walk
in
a
Royal
Bank
and
pay
money
and
tear
machine,
but
nice
tan,
The
Cure's.
It's
quite
good
pay
close
the
o
bank.
Doesn't
they
do
the
same,
but
basically
there's
Association.
So
are
you
saying
that
link
could
do
that
service?
K
Follow
to
a
and
the
rightness
question,
but
my
bank,
the
Royal
Bank,
tell
me
they
don't
want
to
say
it
because
of
the
security
is
at
risk
some
day
walking
and
maybe
might
be
a
thousand
playin
on
the
street
and
to
the
the
machine
there's
a
security
rest
of
some.
They
may
be
hit
them
over
the
head
and
taking
that
money.
So
what
do
you
see?
Do
you
see
like
your
next
by
view
so
from.
P
A
technical
point
of
view
it
can
happen
now.
No
so
it's
exact
they're
up
there
are
process
issues
around
whether
you
might
want
to
do
it
in
the
streets
or
or
inside
a
building
and
so
on,
but
from
a
technical
point
of
view,
the
technology
exists
to
do
that
now
and,
as
I
said
earlier,
it's
a
it's
an
industry
decision
as
to
I
guess
if
and
when
that
does
happen,
and
if
that
decisions
to
be
taken
away
from
industry,
then
I
become
I,
guess
it
becomes
one
for
government
or
for
regulators
yeah.
K
K
Pass
interbank
before
now,
yes
and
that,
basically,
as
the
point
I'm
trying
to
make,
so
what
would
be
the
barriers
to
introduce
in
a
universal
standards
which
includes
access
to
cash
and
face-to-face
services?
My
view
is
that
you
know
there
still
are
people
who
don't
have
bank
accounts.
Maybe
that's
why
you
know
I,
don't
know
where
to
get
the
cash,
but
they
don't.
K
I
Can
I
partly
answer
that
I
think
we've
alluded
to
already.
That
needs
to
be
some
sort
of
mechanism
and
structure
in
terms
of
fees
for
doing
it.
The
technical
interfaces
are
fairly
largely
there,
as
Adrienne
has
alluded
to.
It
requires
the
will
to
go
ahead
and
do
it.
Much
of
this
stuff
is
not
technically
that
difficult,
indeed,
they're,
very
kit
that
you
alluded
to
a
Clydesdale,
the
stuff
that
we
provide
and
operate
and
service
and
keep
running
for
them,
so
the
in
effect,
that's
what
we
do
for
existing
banks
at
the
present
moment.
I
There
is
no
reason
why,
if
a
person's
in
possession
of
the
debit
card,
you
can't
pay
that
of
money
into
that
person's
bank
account
subject
to
them
doing
an
appropriate
security
input
at
the
same
time
as
having
the
card
yeah.
That's
that
is
all
doable
stuff.
It's
the
will
to
do
it.
That
is
the
question
and
that's
where
I
think
there
is
a
a
battle
to
be
fought
more
complex,
getting
the
card
in
the
first
place
for
the
customer,
I
agree
with
all
the
processes
that
are
lots
of
ways
that
that
can
partially
be
done.
I
K
N
On
awareness
is,
is
significant
now,
I'll
come
back
to
that.
If
I
could
in
just
a
moment,
I
think
you
asked
a
question
a
moment
ago
about
where
do
people
that
don't
have
bank
accounts
access
their
cash
and
there's
two
significant
service
sectors
that
we
support?
Well,
increasingly,
and
in
the
next
couple
of
months
we
will
be
bringing
on
some
many
dozens
of
credit
unions
onto
onto
the
banking
framework.
So
essentially,
whether
you
have
a
bank
account
or
a
credit
union
account,
you
can
access
them
through
a
post
office.
N
The
the
other
group
is,
is
the
post
office
card
account,
which
is
the
the
Department
of
Work
and
Pensions
mechanism
whereby
benefit
payments
are
paid
out
to
citizens
around
the
country?
We
still
support
a
million
of
those.
Every
week
we
pay
out
around
about
a
billion
pounds
a
month
in
benefit
payments
in
cash
to
recipients.
That
way,
so
there
are
a
number
of
people
that
are
outside
of
the
banking
infrastructure
that
we
serve
in
the
post
office,
I
think
to
Peter's
point
earlier.
N
There
are
absolutely
the
technology
to
speed
up
those
transactions
and
help
all
customers.
We
are
in
the
process
of
trying
that
at
the
moment,
we
are
looking
to
possibly
from
a
different
direction.
We
know
that
at
the
moment
everybody
crunches
up
to
the
counter
in
a
post
office,
whether
you're,
a
business
customer
looking
to
deposit
rapidly
and
get
back
to
your
business
or
whether
you
are
an
elderly
customer,
perhaps
needing
just
a
little
bit
of
extra
help
everybody's
at
the
counter.
N
So
we
are
looking
to
roll
out
automated
deposit
machines
to
roll
out
technology
that
will
recycle
cash
behind
the
counter
to
help
what
Paul
was
talking
about
earlier
with,
with
with
the
counting
of
cash
and
the
treatment
of
cash
in
the
branch,
as
well
as
how
we
serve
customers
better,
so
that
we
can
do
the
right
service
for
the
right.
Customer
business.
Customers
deposit
quickly
be
gone
in
a
multi
bank
utility
model
right
now
and
that
we
will
hope
to
roll
out
through
this
next
year.
N
So
we
are
doing
again
what
we
can
possibly
from
a
different
direction
from
the
industry,
but
just
to
try
and
improve
how
our
post
offices
use
and
how
customers
can
can
access
a
post
office
by
the
deployment
of
that
technology.
To
your
final
point
about
the
awareness
tin
Clydesdale,
we
have
worked
with
both
Eric
and
UK
finance
and
the
banking
industry
in
the
last
year,
through
the
economic
Secretary
of
Treasury
John,
Glenn's
kind
of
entreaties
to
the
industry.
N
To
make
people
more
aware,
we
ran
two
major
trial
campaigns,
one
in
the
northwest
of
England
and
one
in
Dumfries
and
Galloway
in
Scotland.
Exactly
the
same
message
you
can
bank
in
a
post
office
but
through
different
mechanisms.
Northwest
of
England
was
literally
posters
in
train
stations
beside
the
road
and
so
forth.
Radio
adverts
in
different
mechanisms
to
raise
awareness
and
in
Dumfries
and
Galloway
it
was
postal,
drops
to
everyone's
house.
It
was
local
press
articles
about
banking
to
see
whether
we
could
shift
the
dial
on
awareness
and
we
did.
N
We
all
do
you
say:
I
need
to
go
to
the
post
office
to
do
something,
send
a
parcel
or
to
buy
some
stamps
or,
to
you
know,
send
send
something
to
Auntie
dot
for
Christmas
those
transactions,
people
don't
think
of
us
when
you
don't
need
a
post
office,
so
to
put
up
a
billboard
or
to
put
something
in
the
press.
It
has
a
subliminal
impact,
but
not
a
huge
impact.
N
The
biggest
impact
we've
got
is
working
with
our
own
postmasters,
the
FSB
chambers
of
commerce,
the
local
MP,
to
create
a
local
event
that
the
postmaster
and
myself
and
my
team
we
will
come
and
present
what
post
office
can
do
for
you
as
a
business.
We
can
support
that
local
community.
We
can.
We
can
keep
the
cash
to
the
point
mentioned
earlier.
Money
that
stays
in
the
community
helps
that
community
thrive
soon,
as
it
goes
to
the
next
town,
the
community
really
struggles,
so
those
local-
we
can
do
more.
N
You
know
nationally
without
a
doubt,
but
the
biggest
impact
is
local
messaging
out
through
our
own
postman
master
Network,
which
is
one
of
the
reasons
why
we've
made
such
a
significant
change
on
remuneration.
It's
encouraged
them
and
say:
go
out
there
tell
people
what
you
do.
Your
own
business
will
benefit,
your
your
community
will
benefit,
and
actually
all
of
us,
those
who
need
cash
will
get
access
to
it.
How.
K
How
about
buying
so
you
know,
you
know
basically
from
any
bank
but
her
banks,
identifying
customers,
who've
been
the
most
impacted
by
the
loss
of
a
local
branch,
as
I
say,
are
lost
three
local
branches.
Within
a
space
of
two
years,
the
banks
told
me
that
only
25
people
were
going
a
week
as
to
disable
their
banks
for
two
hours
and
90
people
came
and
I
know.
Wasn't
it
people
who
were
passing
there
was
the
people
who
learn
advanced.
O
We
introduced
a
banking
protocol
which
is
device
revised
into
the
access
to
banking
standard
and
within
that,
the
specific
provisions
for
customers
who
might
be
more
vulnerable
or
in
more
vulnerable
circumstances,
and
we
work
with
Citizens
Advice
to
ensure
that
particular
cohort
of
customers
were
well
well
catered
for.
The
lending
standards
board,
oversees
that
access
to
banking
standard
to
ensure
that
it's
appropriately
applied
and
I
think
in
the
previous
exchange.
There
was
some
criticism
that
it
didn't
necessarily
influence
the
commercial
decision.
O
That's
clearly
something
for
the
bank
concerned,
but
nonetheless,
I
think
it
is
helpful
in
those
local
communities
and
there
have
been
a
number
of
instances
where
a
closure
might
have
been
delayed
because
of
a
local
issue,
roadworks
or
or
some
other
particular
frustration.
So
I
think
in
that
sense
that
we
have
a
mechanism
in
place
to
support
customers,
albeit
I,
think
we
have
to
acknowledge
that
the
ongoing
economic
viability
of
a
bank
branch
really
is
a
proprietary
consideration
for
the
bank
concerned.
K
I
Very
good
case
for
that
because
of
the
geography
in
Scotland,
because
it's
been
adversely
impacted
by
bank
closures
and
is
being
adversely
impacted
by
loss
of
free
to
use,
ATMs
I
think
there's
a
very
good
case
for
doing
that.
I
will
very
happily
forward
you
some
of
the
thoughts
that
we
put
in
terms
of
white
paper
for
the
cash
supply
and
the
pricing
mechanism
you've
submitted
to
the
PSO
and
others
to
look
at
which
may
form
a
an
option
for
Scotland.
I
Together
with
you
know,
I
would
happily
welcome
you
to
visit
some
of
the
locations
that
we'll
be
installing
very
shortly.
We've
opened
as
say
fourteen
branches
over
the
last
couple
of
years
and
will
be
extending
the
range
of
services
that
those
deliver
over
the
next
few
to
have
a
look
at
what
can
be
done
and.
K
I
B
B
Multitude
of
different
services
is
a
sufficient
training
and
is
it
possible
for
anyone
post
office
to
have
sufficient
knowledge
and
expertise
to
handle
all
those
different
items,
including
selling
toothpaste
and
other
things
they
may
have
to
certain
I
love
the
post.
If
I
go
in
there's
a
multiple
cue,
some
post
office,
some
getting
the
milk
some
of
the
newspaper
some
want
to
go
far
so
Anjali.
B
N
Very
good
question
and
prior
to
the
creation
of
the
the
first
banking
framework
in
2017,
we
had
exactly
that
challenge
writ
large
across
the
UK.
We
have
served
banks
bilaterally
as
in
different
arrangements,
different
types
of
service
for
a
number
of
years.
The
framework
was
established
essentially
to
bring
everybody
together
and
start
the
move
towards
standardizing
those
services
so
that
whatever
we
did,
we
did
it
the
same
for
every
for
every
bank.
N
We've
got
to
a
point
now,
three
years
on,
just
as
we
head
towards
a
new
banking
framework
whereby
pretty
much
every
bit
of
paper
bar
paying
in
slips
for
cheques,
which
I'll
try
and
come
back
to
in
a
second
but
pretty
much
for
cash
in
and
cash
out,
for
which
that
takes
up
90,
plus
percent
of
our
total
transactions.
We
do
for
banking
is
all
to
do
with
cash
in
cash
and
is
all
paperless.
It's
all
direct
debit
card.
N
It's
all,
essentially
what
you
do
it
in
ATM
chip
and
pin
at
the
other
terminal,
so
we
have
to
a
very
great
degree,
standardize
those
services.
There
is
a
challenge,
and
the
committee
raised
it
earlier
about
what
other
services
could
a
post
office?
Do
we
know
that,
obviously,
as
you've
all
seen,
you
know,
we
do
have
queuing
issues,
especially
a
Christmas.
N
Anything
that
would
take
more
time
at
the
counter
is
going
to
be
something
that
we
would
work
to
avoid.
If
I
was
honest,
we
look
to
do
transactional
rapid,
useful
local
community
transactions.
It's
that
everyday
banking,
that
we
that
we
call
it
because,
with
the
toothpaste,
the
toothpaste
behind
us
with
the
milk
with
the
cigarettes
whatever
it
is,
that
people
want
to
buy.
You
want
that
kind
of
speed
of
throughput.
So,
to
the
same
point
made
earlier
that
we're
not
financial
advisors
were
not
IFA.
N
Nor
could
we
get
fifty
thousand
staff
uk-wide
trained
to
that
level
of
advice.
We
can
do
the
every
day,
that's
required
as
long
as
we
know
where
we
can
pass
off
customers
who
wish
to
talk
about
complex
products
to
the
right
bank
trained
people.
We
have
got
to
a
point
now
where
we
have
got
pretty
much
standard
services
for
the
vast
majority
of
things
that
we
do
check
paying.
In
is
a
challenge,
and
increasingly
we
welcome
and
we're
working
with
the
industry
to
do
cheque
imaging.
N
So,
let's
take
the
picture
of
the
cheque
on
the
phone.
That's
you
know
to
to
to
remove
the
need
to
physically
put
paper
over
the
counter,
with
a
with
or
without
a
paying
insulin,
with
or
without
an
envelope.
That
variation
is
a
challenge
and
we
have
got
to
do
more
to
get
rid
of
cheques
check
envelopes
check,
paying
in
slips
and
so
forth.
That's
the
last
one
that
is
so
far
non-standard.
Everything
else
we've
got
to
a
point:
a
standardization.
J
You've,
just
just
a
small
question:
we've
all
been
talking
about
the
reduction
in
the
numbers
of
ATMs
and
the
reduction
in
the
volume
of
cash
withdrawals
from
ATMs
now
understand
that
in
the
first
half
of
2019
there's
a
suggestion
that
ATM
use
fell
significantly
specifically
that
first
half
of
the
year,
given
that
the
trend
has
been
as
a
more
gentle
drop
and
then
we're
facing
this
bigger
drop.
Is
that
the
start
of
a
trend
or
is
it
simply
an
aberration?
J
P
When
we
look
at
trends
in
ATM
usage
at
the
moment,
ATM
usage
that
the
decline
is,
is
increasing
so
year-on-year
over
that
there's
a
reduction
of
over
10%
in
cash
withdrawals,
and
that
is
that
is
increasing.
So
we
do
an
eight-week
rolling
average
and
as
we
move
through
that
that
10%
increases
by
about
0.1
percent.
So
yes,
we
are
so.
J
P
J
P
I
think
I
think.
The
reason
is
the
way
that
we
are
paying
the
work.
The
way
that
we
pay
is
changing.
So
you
know,
contactless
cards
would
be
a
very
good
example,
so
the
rate
of
growth
in
contacts
card
transactions
has
been
huge.
We're
now
seeing
a
growth
in
wearables
people
paying
for
things
with
their
watch
and
people
buying
things
online
as
well.
So
I
think
you
know
the
footfall
moving
away
from
the
high
street,
where
you
have
the
the
opportunity
to
pay
with
cash
towards
buying
things
online.
P
J
I
I
Q
What
Peter's,
making
what
we're
funding
through
our
machines
also
is
the
is
the
value
of
cash.
That's
being
withdrawn,
is
actually
relatively
flat,
so
this
year
we
expect
to
put
out
28
billion
pounds
in
cash
into
the
UK
economy.
So,
whilst
the
volume
is
decreasing
on
some
estates
and
for
us
because
of
the
bank
branch
closures,
we're
seeing
some
of
that
volume
migrated
to
our
machines,
we're
actually
seeing
that
the
value
is
actually
relic
be
stable.
I.
P
Think
if
the
problem
was
an
under
supply
in
ATMs
I
think
we
probably
expect
people
to
take
out
more
cash
each
time
they
visits
an
ATM
but
Scotland
specific
number.
For
you,
the
average
withdrawal
valve
withdrawal
value
in
Scotland
is
about
65
pounds
and
that's
only
moved
by
just
over
3%
in
the
last
year
or
so,
which
is
not
much
more
than
the
rates
of
inflation.